00:03:46 symbole [~user@ool-ad02b0d9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:02 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B66D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:10:03 elopezc [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 00:10:29 -!- ericklc [~ikki@189.247.110.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:11:24 jingtao [b4bb9722@gateway/web/freenode/ip.180.187.151.34] has joined #lisp 00:14:04 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 00:15:10 -!- elopezc is now known as ikki 00:18:46 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:20:15 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-204-247-114.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:51 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:27:10 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-204-247-114.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:28:50 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:47 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-204-247-114.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:17 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:34:58 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:21 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-204-247-114.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:37:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:40:44 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:14 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-35-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 00:43:22 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:43:47 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:01 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-35-19.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 00:51:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:53:12 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:56:56 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:56:56 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:01:48 -!- pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:05:04 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:11:04 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:14:13 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:16:13 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:16 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Quit: Offline] 01:20:25 wes-exp [~user@76-198-128-124.lightspeed.mtvwca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:27 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:58 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:02 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:26:05 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.206.134] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:26:44 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:04 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:33:16 Can anyone tell me if it's possible to loop over an array/vector using loop in a "for each" manner and modify the elements (without referring to the array index)? 01:33:51 Emacs Lisp has some "for var across-ref array" thing, but I don't see how to do it in CL. 01:34:51 wes-exp: what about checking the clhs? 01:35:29 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm 01:35:32 The only thing I see in clhs is across, which is giving me an error when I try to setf on the array element. 01:35:43 *jfleming* vaguely recalls PCL addressing this kind of thing 01:36:24 Otherwise, I don't have any across-ref in cl-macs.el loop. 01:37:11 wes-exp: if you want to modify the array, you'll need to use aref (and therefore you'll need an index). 01:37:28 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:37:30 you can use a symbol-macro to sweeten reality. 01:37:39 Perhaps iterate can make one? 01:39:21 fusss [~chatzilla@blowes.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:36 hi, I'm having this weird issue where loading the file alone doesn't seem to be evaluating forms, I need to physically visit the file and eval the forms myself. No eval-when incantation seems to work 01:41:25 fusss: loading the source file is (eval-when (:execution) ...) time. 01:41:42 :execute I mean. 01:41:59 I have this on top (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ..) 01:42:23 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:31 I think I just need to nuke the old fasls and make sure this new form is loading then. Just had to check it wasn't something else. 01:42:50 Loading a fasl is :load-toplevel time. 01:43:34 wait, loading the fasl is not the same as loading the file? I thought it was just an optimization, left to the discretion of the compiler 01:43:48 fusss: clhs eval-when. 01:44:20 kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has joined #lisp 01:44:38 If you want to leave things to the discretion of the compiler then don't mess with eval-when. 01:45:13 that's exactly what I want; not dick around with evaluation order. Besides, eval-when is ugly & it indents my code inward 01:45:23 RIght. 01:47:11 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-16-101.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:47:16 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:48:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/122106 01:48:51 trying to connect clsql to mysql database I get that error 01:48:54 any ideas? 01:51:19 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:52:34 ezakimak: you have a compilation error, not a database connection error. 01:52:52 ok. so what do I do about it? 01:53:05 (this is way over my head at this point) 01:53:22 i'm not even sure what the error is 01:54:08 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:27 ezakimak: you're right, not sure what the error is.I'm not even sure clsql still uses UFFI, is this a recent version? 01:54:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@216.239.45.19] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:54:45 clsql 5.3.2 01:55:12 uffi 2.0.0 01:55:28 yep, seems recent 01:55:54 (would volunteer the gratuitous advice to use postmodern + postgres anway) 01:56:03 my asdf is old, I know that 01:56:03 Jasko2 [~tjasko@174.59.204.245] has joined #lisp 01:56:46 nah, i'm a mysql guy. 01:58:03 You haven't pasted enough to tell what the error is. 01:58:10 that's all it gave me 01:58:19 You have a very old SBCL though 01:58:32 1.0.19? 01:58:39 I can get 1.0.47 01:58:42 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:58:43 that's more than 2 years ago. 01:58:44 is that newer? 01:58:51 yes. Version numbers go up. 01:58:55 ezakimak: sbcl is released monthly 01:58:57 i mean, new enough 01:59:34 ezakimak: 1.0.47 is just one release behind the current one, so it *should* be new enough. 01:59:43 ezakimak: that's the release before last. Channel has the important app versions 02:00:26 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:00:27 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:01:31 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:04:13 <ezakimak> updating... 02:08:26 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:02 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:45 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@69.70.212.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:43 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.170.23] has joined #lisp 02:14:06 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:14:21 -!- anxt [~user@64.141.19.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:15:10 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:16:10 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:17:34 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:17:50 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.148.255] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:21:27 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:22:47 cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.131.80] has joined #lisp 02:32:52 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-204-247-114.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:32 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:39:34 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:42:03 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:26 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:43:07 chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has joined #lisp 02:44:59 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h88n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:45:22 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:46:10 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:47:09 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.34] has joined #lisp 02:55:18 elderK [ca445bc6@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 02:55:52 <elderK> Hey people! 02:55:59 <elderK> Any chance anyone here hails from Christchurch?\ 03:00:02 <symbole> What's that? 03:05:15 <fusss> elderK: NZ? I'm in Australia 03:05:24 <elderK> Aw. 03:05:25 <elderK> :( 03:05:38 <fusss> elderK: many kiwi Lispers though 03:06:10 <fusss> elderK: how are you recovering from the quake? 03:06:21 <elderK> Pretty good! 03:06:35 <elderK> There's still a bunch of construction and repair going on and many historical buildings acme down. 03:06:44 <elderK> The central business district is basically levelled, too. 03:06:47 <elderK> It's really... crazy. 03:07:01 <elderK> Cordoned off areas... if you manage to be allowed into them for some reason, it's really creepy. 03:07:13 <elderK> So quiet, so... pretty at the same time, but there's just, nothing, no one, no activity in those areas. 03:07:23 <fusss> cool 03:07:26 <elderK> Feels a bit like I'd imagine Chernobyl would feel like if you could walk around there without like, dying. 03:08:06 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08:09 <fusss> no way, Christchurch is picturesque and beautiful. Anyway, many NZ Haskellers than Lispers. See them on twitter all the time :-) 03:09:10 <Zhivago> elderK: You can. 03:09:36 <fusss> actually, geographic search in twitter has been of great help. Met several hackers that way when I first moved to Australia 03:10:46 <Zhivago> The problem with searching twitter is that you only find twits. 03:11:09 <elderK> I wish I could meet some people 03:11:12 <elderK> Just moved up here, you see. 03:11:13 <elderK> from Dunedin 03:11:21 <elderK> Been here for about a month and a half now, came up for work. 03:12:44 <jfleming> elderK: I'm *from* there, though I've lived in Sydney for a few years now. My family's still over there, though. 03:13:19 <jfleming> fusss: where the bloody hell are you, then? :) 03:13:58 kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:12 <fusss> off topic alert, jfleming see pvt 03:15:23 __class__ [~class@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:29 <jfleming> fusss: fair call 03:15:50 <fusss> brb, lunch 03:15:53 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@blowes.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]] 03:15:54 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:17:09 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:17:58 <elderK> crazy jfleming 03:18:06 <elderK> Not really sure how to go about meeting more peeps like me. 03:18:12 <elderK> like, hackerey, in the exotic languagey way. 03:23:50 <Zhivago> You could try a dating service. 03:23:58 <elderK> heh 03:24:04 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:24:06 <elderK> :) I have a lovely girl. 03:24:15 <elderK> :P Go to a dating servoce 03:24:16 <elderK> show up 03:24:18 <elderK> be like 03:24:19 <elderK> Psyyyyyche 03:26:37 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:26:58 -!- elderK [ca445bc6@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has left #lisp 03:27:08 elderK [ca445bc6@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 03:35:04 splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 03:37:22 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.170.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:37:52 -!- splittist [~splittist@188.62.245.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:40:41 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:215:5200:0:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 03:40:41 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:215:5200:0:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 03:40:41 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 03:43:49 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.170.23] has joined #lisp 03:50:53 Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-82.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:29 -!- JimmyRcom [~jimmy@adsl-75-53-45-212.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:57:07 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:58:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:59:14 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:11 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:05:58 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:05:59 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06:18 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:52 kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:52 -!- kruhft is now known as burton` 04:07:04 <burton`> howdy 04:07:07 -!- burton` is now known as kruhft 04:07:23 <kruhft> is there a way to embed #\Newline into a string literal? 04:08:00 <kruhft> sort of like "hello world\n" in c? 04:08:10 <Zhivago> (format nil "hello world~%") 04:08:30 <kruhft> no special syntax for embedding it directly? 04:08:34 <Zhivago> No. 04:08:57 <kruhft> that's unfortunate... 04:10:25 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.245.34] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 04:10:46 <_3b> you can just put newlines in the strings directly though, or add your own syntax 04:13:05 <kruhft> how would you go about putting the newlines in the strings directly 04:13:19 <kruhft> through a read macro of some sort? 04:13:20 <_3b> hit the enter key? 04:13:31 <Zhivago> Mutation. :) 04:13:31 <kruhft> oh...yeah :-/ 04:13:45 <Zhivago> It is a peculiar and annoying issue. 04:13:55 <kruhft> yes 04:14:18 <kruhft> i would think a syntax like "hello world!#\Newline\" or something like that might work 04:14:28 <kruhft> or even just C syntax of course... 04:14:36 <_3b> read macro would be for adding syntax, see for example cl-interpol 04:15:44 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:16:00 <kruhft> i'm just writing my own little split string function and i was thinking of how to pass in the standard " \t\r\n" 04:16:03 <Zhivago> kruhft: No point crying over ossified CL specifications. 04:16:11 <kruhft> ended up with '(#\ #\Tab #\Newline #\Return #\Linefeed) 04:16:21 <kruhft> not quite as nice but oh well 04:16:39 <spiaggia`> kruhft: What do you have against (format nil ...)? 04:16:59 <kruhft> spiaggia`: nothing really 04:17:34 <_3b> accepting any sequence there leaves it up to the user to decide how to put the characters into code 04:18:10 <kruhft> should be fine...i'm just using the position function which should work with strings or lists or whatever they want to pass 04:18:20 <Zhivago> krufht: There's always (apply #'concatenate 'string (mapcar #'string '(#\newline #\tab))) 04:18:42 <kruhft> Zhivago: true 04:18:44 *_3b* would have used (coerce '(...) 'string) 04:18:48 <Zhivago> I think it stems from not being able to make its mind up as to if newline is a character or not. 04:19:23 <Zhivago> I suspect that initially they treated it as an control sequence. 04:19:26 <kruhft> well my list of characters works ok...most of the time they're what's used by default anyways 04:19:37 <kruhft> and the list is optional so 04:19:38 <Zhivago> Later they had the streams do demanglery ala C. 04:19:46 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 04:20:01 <Zhivago> But they didn't extend the escape sequence set to fit. 04:20:40 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:49 <kruhft> i just finished Let Over Lambda and thought i would do a bit of playing with closures 04:20:58 <kruhft> made a string-buffer class 04:21:13 <kruhft> so i thought that split would be nice 04:21:18 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:33 <kruhft> besides :push :pop :append and :clear 04:22:30 <kruhft> more interesting than trying to make linux device drivers work like at my day job 04:23:11 <kruhft> anyways, thanks for the tips 04:23:12 -!- kruhft [~burton@S0106002401f331bd.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 04:23:30 -!- madalu` [~user@67-197-62-83.rh2.dyn.cm.comporium.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:24:00 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:26:26 dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:52 slyrus [~chatzilla@99-27-205-152.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:39 alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 04:36:22 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 04:36:22 -!- xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:36:47 xan_ 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[jabber-irc@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 05:02:18 <elderK> peace out guys1 05:02:36 -!- elderK [ca445bc6@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has left #lisp 05:04:10 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw2.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:04:32 redline6` [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:48 <kushal> good morning all 05:04:58 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pxirxfecjqxdnvse] has joined #lisp 05:05:00 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:05:41 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 05:06:59 -!- dmiles_afk [dmiles@c-24-21-133-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:07:48 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81CFBA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:10:40 -!- cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.131.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:12:23 -!- jp_larocque [jabber-irc@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 05:14:11 -!- alama 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[~foo@ip72-204-247-114.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:34:45 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:34:54 stis_ [~stis@host-95-194-6-78.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:34 -!- stis [~stis@host-78-79-232-224.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:36:20 billitch [~billitch@78.251.148.255] has joined #lisp 08:37:06 <nikodemus> stassats: aroundp 08:41:11 <stassats> yes 08:46:46 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:46:54 <nikodemus> i have a start on package local indentation information 08:47:20 <stassats> good 08:48:02 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-248-163.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:48:54 <nikodemus> just pushed to github 08:49:24 <stassats> will check 08:50:04 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:51:54 -!- Phooodus [~foo@ip72-204-247-114.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:54:54 <stassats> nikodemus: you can search for buffer package with slime-search-buffer-package 08:55:27 <stassats> or slime-find-buffer-package, but it can do more than just searching in-package 08:55:46 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-007-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:01 <stassats> (e.g. with slime-repl enabled and no in-package present it will use the REPL package 08:56:02 <stassats> ) 08:58:01 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 08:58:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-148-123.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:59:23 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:01:55 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:02:09 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:17 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:06:38 <nikodemus> stassats: i don't want to add an explicit dependency to slime to cl-indent.el 09:07:09 <nikodemus> but maybe a common-lisp-current-package-function will do the job 09:08:05 HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:14 <bsod1> /join #eclipse 09:08:20 <bsod1> lol, sry 09:08:24 <stassats> bsod1: never! 09:08:35 <bsod1> stassats, damn, xchat :S 09:08:49 stis__ [~stis@host-95-198-58-133.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:11 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-194-6-78.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-128-34.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 09:11:13 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-155-86.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:20:05 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 09:20:16 <morphism> oh, he remind me about my pain of Java 09:23:32 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:26:03 <bsod1> morphism, I'm in a great pain right now because of a stupid assignment 09:26:08 <bsod1> (java) 09:26:33 <Zhivago> That's why you should take function programming -- no assignments. 09:27:31 <bsod1> Zhivago, if you mean functional programming course, we don't have any functional programming courses.. 09:27:41 <Zhivago> Probably not enough assignments. 09:33:31 <morphism> =)) bsod1, exactly what I am currently in 09:34:23 <nikodemus> stassats: added support for symbols accessible through use or import and explicit package prefixes 09:34:28 <morphism> and if my teacher or my university realize and take use the power of CL ,then I am really willing to do all homeworks 09:34:44 <nikodemus> i think i'm now going to just let it lie for a week or so and see how it feels to use 09:35:08 <nikodemus> (and hooking for slime package lookup, so it gets the repl package right) 09:36:20 stis [~stis@host-90-233-50-25.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:37:11 -!- stis__ [~stis@host-95-198-58-133.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:40:42 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 09:45:39 ykim3 [~user@175.124.94.167] has joined #lisp 09:48:42 Joreji [~thomas@78-230.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:49:25 Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has joined #lisp 09:51:26 <Guthur> would the purest implementation of lambda expressions in a PL only contain one expression? 09:52:08 <Zhivago> How could it contain more in a functional system? 09:52:52 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-233-50-25.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:53:22 stis [~stis@host-90-233-50-25.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:53:30 <Guthur> Not sure, I think I'm confused by anonymous functions 09:53:52 <Guthur> are they separate entities? 09:53:55 <_3b> well, even in CL they only contain 1 expression, it just happens to be implicit 09:53:56 <Zhivago> Why would a function need a name? 09:54:08 <Zhivago> In CL they're a procedure. 09:54:24 <Zhivago> (lambda (a) (+ a 1)) <- there you go. 09:54:28 <_3b> that is another valid interpretation, yes 09:54:56 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:55:07 <Zhivago> ((lambda (a) (+ a 1)) 2) <- look at that. 09:55:15 <Zhivago> What's the problem? 09:56:11 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.13] has joined #lisp 09:56:20 <Guthur> well, I started to question my understanding when I found things difficult with python lambdas 09:56:30 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:56:35 <Zhivago> Nothing special about those. 09:56:49 <Guthur> but the single expression concept bites sooner 09:57:08 <Zhivago> Ok. 09:57:21 <Zhivago> It's probably that you're used to confusing procedures with functions. 09:59:50 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.14.35] has joined #lisp 10:01:14 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:02:36 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.212.140.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:47 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:03:24 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 10:05:11 <Guthur> crumbs, I have been confusing things 10:05:32 <Guthur> but now my world is less rosy 10:06:43 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:01 stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-109-180.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:34 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-233-50-25.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:08:07 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.14.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:12:11 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:12:34 stis__ [~stis@host-95-201-127-14.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:05 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-109-180.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:16:39 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19:05 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 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#lisp 10:43:50 <nikodemus> i wonder how this would run sbcl... http://bellard.org/jslinux/ 10:44:01 -!- stis [~stis@host-78-79-213-85.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:44:13 <alama> hmm, it seems that threads got disabled in sbcl 1.0.48? 10:44:41 <alama> (:sb-thread is not in *FEATURES*, for some reason) 10:45:57 <aerique> alama: what OS? 10:46:07 <alama> mac os 10.6 10:46:32 <easyE> alama: you're compiling it wrong. 10:46:45 <easyE> I've got osx-10.6 with :sb-thread 10:46:55 <Guthur> oops I broke my jslinux 10:47:02 <nikodemus> alama: threads have never yet been included on os x by default 10:47:03 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.14.35] has joined #lisp 10:47:15 <alama> i must have changed the way i compile it 10:47:33 <nikodemus> echo: "(lambda (f) (cons :sb-thread f))" > customize-target-features.lisp 10:47:50 <alama> oh, i see waht i did 10:47:52 <nikodemus> s/:// 10:47:53 <alama> d\oh 10:48:16 <alama> nikodemus: right, i was doing that; then i stopped 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[~quassel@84.252.14.164] has joined #lisp 11:03:10 -!- Younder [~john@41.202.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 11:03:17 stis [~stis@host-90-235-172-103.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:03:22 -!- stis__ [~stis@host-95-197-173-190.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:03:49 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:33 sacho [~sacho@95-42-83-175.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 11:09:41 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-172-103.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:09:50 stis [~stis@host-95-197-241-14.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:11:29 -!- alama [~alama@er-145-100-225-181.flexnet2.rug.nl] has quit [Quit: alama] 11:12:51 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.156.210] has joined #lisp 11:16:23 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:18:27 sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@140.57.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:18:48 xan_ [~xan@140.57.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:20:28 stis_ [~stis@host-95-193-14-9.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:20:39 -!- stis [~stis@host-95-197-241-14.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:25:18 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-193-14-9.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:27:18 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:29:35 trgn [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has joined #lisp 11:29:39 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:29:41 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:30:04 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 11:31:37 JimmyRcom [~jimmy@adsl-75-53-45-212.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:58 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@31.141.91.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:39:48 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 11:41:04 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:41:14 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:42:36 pnq [~nick@ACA31D43.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 11:45:34 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 11:48:09 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-167.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:53:54 -!- cheater79 [~cheater23@ip-80-226-16-83.vodafone-net.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:57:11 <pjb> Six months to learn Japanese... 11:57:45 <Xach> And you should also start walking today. 11:58:09 <pjb> Ah if we are to go there walking, indeed, that leaves a lot of time to learn the language. 11:58:25 <pjb> Before mechanised transport, people didn't have any language problem. 11:58:37 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.83] has joined #lisp 11:58:37 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.83] has quit [Changing host] 11:58:37 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 11:59:32 LakatosI [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has joined #lisp 12:00:15 <lisppaste> LakatosI pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122119 12:00:23 <LakatosI> Hey guys 12:00:35 <LakatosI> Can somebody help me out with Postmodern 12:00:47 <LakatosI> Yesterday my code worked with no problems 12:01:04 <LakatosI> And now t tells me that it can't connect to the database 12:01:18 <pjb> There's no connection-socket method for strings. 12:01:24 <pjb> What would be the connection-socket of a string? 12:01:38 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 12:01:56 <Xach> LakatosI: Hmm, something very similar to that works fine for me. 12:02:14 cpape [root@linux01.gwdg.de] has joined #lisp 12:02:37 <Xach> LakatosI: does it work if you use a (postmodern:disconnect-toplevel) first? 12:02:51 <Xach> LakatosI: also, probably not great to share your password with the world? 12:03:03 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.171.184] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:03:30 <LakatosI> lol, that's just a generic thing I typed in there 12:04:15 <_3b> are you using a variable named *database*? 12:04:25 <LakatosI> yeah, disconnectiong doesn't to anything 12:04:28 <LakatosI> yes 12:04:32 <LakatosI> oh... 12:04:39 <Xach> heh 12:04:43 <LakatosI> Is it taken? 12:05:00 <jdz> there is one in postmodern package 12:05:02 <_3b> you :use :postmodern? 12:05:06 <Xach> _3b: that is some fine debugging-from-experience right there. 12:05:13 <_3b> if so, you overwrote postmoder's *database* and confused it 12:05:55 <_3b> Xach: nah, debugging from reading the backtrace and the code 12:05:58 <LakatosI> yeah, I did that 12:06:03 *_3b* usually uses package prefixes 12:06:21 <LakatosI> I normally do that myself 12:06:41 <LakatosI> but I was kinda lazy to write out every single time postmodern: 12:06:56 <_3b> it is nicknamed pomo: if that helps :) 12:06:57 *Xach* often shadowing-imports what he needs 12:06:59 <LakatosI> I guess that showed :) 12:07:36 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07:46 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 12:07:48 <_3b> importing specific symbols is another reasonable solution 12:08:00 <LakatosI> yay, it works 12:08:34 <LakatosI> I didn't really know what I was going to need, so I imported everything 12:08:34 <_3b> Xach: do TTF outlines not have any particular orientation? (clockwise or ccw, etc) 12:09:18 <LakatosI> And now the code has grown to large for me to change things 12:09:36 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-204-245.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:40 <LakatosI> Withput having to painstakingly backtrack through every line 12:09:46 <Xach> _3b: yes, the orientation of nested contours affects how fills work. i can't remember without looking it up, though. 12:10:43 <_3b> right, they have to be opposite direction to cut out, but that doesn't specify which way the outer goes 12:11:08 <Xach> _3b: I'll find out, just a sec. 12:11:22 <_3b> cool, thanks 12:11:31 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:11:49 *_3b* was hoping to be able to assume a particular direction, but a few characters in this font end up inside out :( 12:12:19 topeak [~topeak@180.77.211.95] has joined #lisp 12:13:20 <LakatosI> thanks for the help 12:13:30 -!- LakatosI [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:14:30 <Xach> _3b: from looking at times.ttf in fontforge, it looks like the outer contour is clockwise. I don't know if that's mandatory. I'll peek at the spec. 12:14:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@140.57.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:15:02 -!- no-name- [~no-name@11.228.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [] 12:15:37 <Xach> Yay! My blog search results for "common lisp" were being clogged by spam blogs that blocked blogger's abuse feedback links. I wrote a CL program that scraped the pages to produce spam abuse reports to google, and now the spam blogs are getting knocked offline! 12:15:39 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:15:57 <_3b> yeah, most of this font is clockwise 12:16:14 <_3b> (or ccw, not actually sure) 12:19:37 *_3b* installs fontforge 12:21:32 *cfy* pasted "counts line of a file" at http://paste2.org/get/1424785 12:21:50 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 12:21:59 <cfy> is there a way to get the number of lines in a file as fast as wc -l? 12:22:21 <cfy> here is my to do it,http://paste2.org/get/1424785 12:22:33 <pjb> cfy: wc -l doesn't count lines ina file, it counts the 10 bytes in it. 12:22:53 <pjb> So first, open the file as a binary file. 12:23:10 <pjb> Then user read-sequence, and sum (count 10 buffer). 12:23:15 <pjb> s/user/use/ 12:23:28 <cfy> pjb: thanks,got it 12:27:47 <_3b> ok, looks like at least fontforge agrees these characters are wound in opposite direction 12:27:54 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 12:29:19 <_3b> this one at least looks like it is just another character mirrored horizontally, wouldn't be surprised if the others i found are the same 12:32:31 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 12:34:55 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.13] has joined #lisp 12:35:41 -!- ykim3 [~user@175.124.94.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:18 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:10 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:38:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-130.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:38:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-3-130.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 12:38:56 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 12:39:09 <Xach> In my experience, TrueType font quality drops off sharply when you aren't using a face commissioned by a large company and/or designed by a prestigious designer. 12:39:21 <Xach> People slap together all kinds of junk. 12:39:50 *_3b* was using arial from msttcorefonts 12:39:53 <p_l|backup> ... ahhh, how good to be back 12:40:48 <stassats> people should switch to writing text in binary digits, you'd only need two characters, 0 and 1 12:41:04 <p_l|backup> Xach: there's also issue of hinting bytecode. Also, be wary of "poor man's" forced bolds etc. 12:41:15 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.171.184] has joined #lisp 12:41:32 <cfy> pjb: http://paste2.org/p/1424813 ,still slow 12:41:41 *Guthur* imagines it's quite alot of work to create a decent font 12:41:42 *_3b* doesn't really want hinting, since i'm extruding geometry... if its that small it won't look good either way :) 12:41:51 <cfy> pjb: i don't know what's going wrong 12:41:58 <Guthur> doesn't strike me as very exciting either 12:42:10 <_3b> cfy: try a typed array 12:42:16 <p_l|backup> _3b: some of that bytecode afaik manages things like corrections depending on size, afaik 12:42:55 <stassats> Guthur: especially containing not only latin letters 12:43:05 <_3b> p_l|backup: right, i just don't expect this to be useful for the sizes where that matters anyway 12:43:20 <p_l|backup> btw, anyone here worked with EQL (ECL's Qt binding?) 12:43:56 <Xach> _3b: http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/TTCH01.htm 12:44:06 <Xach> _3b: see "...must be numbered in consecutive order" 12:44:53 <_3b> Xach: ok, so arial is broken, and i can just ignore the problem, thanks :) 12:45:15 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:45:30 <jdz> _3b: btw, why arial and not, say, devjavu sans? 12:45:41 <_3b> well, maybe, not sure i understand what they mean there 12:46:02 <_3b> jdz: just the first name i thought of that happened to be easily findable 12:46:12 <cfy> _3b: http://paste2.org/p/1424817 ,i try to use (make-array length :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)),but it is faster than previous,but still slow 12:46:18 <p_l|backup> Xach: would you be willing to publish your spam-fighting scraper? :) 12:46:41 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 12:47:41 <_3b> cfy: might be faster to use a smaller array and process it in parts 12:47:51 <Xach> p_l|backup: oops, forgot to announce http://paste.lisp.org/display/122120 12:47:52 <cfy> _3b: oh. 12:48:38 <_3b> at least a few k at a time, probably less than 1mb (just guessing, without any testing though) 12:49:35 <stassats> if it's sbcl, using sb-vector-io should be faster still 12:49:47 <_3b> though if /dev/shm/... is from memory, that might not help much 12:49:50 <stassats> on my benchmark, sb-vector-io is as fast as mmap 12:50:04 *_3b* doesn't actually know what /dev/shm/ is 12:50:36 <jdz> cfy: try (loop for char across text counting (= char 10)) 12:50:57 <stassats> i wouldn't expect this to be faster 12:50:59 <_3b> jdz: if that is faster than count, you need a new lisp :p 12:51:52 <_3b> (which is also a possibility, choice of lisp would affect the speed of the various operations) 12:52:18 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 12:52:26 <jdz> _3b: according to my experience SBCL is such a lisp 12:52:51 <_3b> count being slower than the loop you mean? 12:52:55 <jdz> http://t-b-o-g.blogspot.com/2009/12/brians-brain-on-common-lisp-take-3.html 12:53:08 *_3b* supposes it might matter what type of array 12:54:06 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-33-40-18.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:54:12 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 12:54:17 <cfy> jdz: _3b: thanks,jdz's way is the fastest:) use a smaller array and process it in parts doesn't seems faster :) 12:54:50 *cfy* pasted "counts line of a file" at http://paste2.org/get/1424834 12:55:26 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:55:41 <cfy> while wc takes 0.01s and lisp takes 0.05s 12:56:08 <jdz> cfy: you could also try declaring the type of char variable and using eql instead of = 12:56:14 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:56:22 <jdz> cfy: just while you're experimenting 12:57:16 <_3b> cfy: might also (declare (optimize speed)) 12:57:41 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:58:11 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:34 <p_l|backup> a place to mount posix shm filesystem? 12:59:11 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:00:03 <cfy> jdz: how can i declare the type in loop? 13:00:45 <_3b> for char of-type (unsigned-byte 8) ... 13:01:11 *_3b* wouldn't expect sbcl to need that though 13:02:48 <cfy> _3b: yeah, i can't see the difference of the running time:) 13:04:24 <_3b> cfy: how big is the file you are testing with? 13:04:26 <Xach> http://paste.lisp.org/display/122121 is one that can work on files that are larger than memory. 13:04:50 cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.131.80] has joined #lisp 13:04:51 <cfy> _3b: 12M and has 435476 in it 13:05:43 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:06:46 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:08:54 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:25 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pxirxfecjqxdnvse] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:11:42 <cfy> i have tried another file,which is 323M and has 11757852 lines,wc -l takes 0.19s, lisp( http://paste2.org/p/1424852 ) takes 1.03s 13:12:14 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:13:09 sellout- [~Adium@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:22 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 13:13:33 <splittist> cfy: what were you planning to do with the extra 0.84 seconds? 13:15:14 <cfy> splittist: i beg your pardon?i don't understand your mean 13:15:25 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA31D43.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:15:36 <pjb> Do you have something important in your life that needs to be done in those 0.84 seconds? 13:15:57 <cfy> no.i just want my program runs faster 13:16:19 <pjb> Why? 13:16:20 yhk [~user@175.124.94.167] has joined #lisp 13:17:36 <cfy> pjb: run external program to count line is a lisp way? 13:18:04 <pjb> How many files do you have to count l ines from? 13:18:06 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 13:18:14 <pjb> We've already spent time for thousands of files! 13:18:52 <splittist> In the order of 1e12 bytes... 13:19:16 <cfy> pjb: less than one hundred files 13:19:37 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.14.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:05 -!- Vutral [73seXiNyY7@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:20:33 <pjb> cfy: then stop thinking about it now, you've got a working solution. 13:21:10 <cfy> pjb: oh.got that.do you usually call external programs to get things down? 13:21:29 <Xach> cfy: The lisp way is to worry about things when they are worth worrying about. 13:21:57 <pjb> cfy: Not usually. 13:22:04 <Xach> And if Lisp can't do it, trivialize the problem, possibly followed by sticking your fingers in your ear and saying "Every language is derived from Lisp, la la la la!" 13:22:05 <cfy> pjb: oh. 13:22:38 <cfy> Xach: thanks for your advices:) 13:24:01 -!- Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:24:34 leyyer_su [~user@222.212.115.210] has joined #lisp 13:24:59 <stassats> i like optimizing because it's fun! 13:25:13 Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has joined #lisp 13:26:39 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-204-247-114.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:26:46 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 13:26:56 <_3b> Xach: any easy way to get a list of the glyphs in a font with zpb-ttf? picking indices below (glyph-count loader) seems to give me lots of 'no character' box 13:27:29 <Xach> _3b: I think so, let me see... 13:28:56 Phoodus [~foo@ip72-204-247-114.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:22 dlowe [~dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 13:30:25 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:30:41 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 13:31:46 <Xach> _3b: You mean using (index-glyph index loader)? 13:31:59 <_3b> right 13:33:25 -!- spurvewt [~fess@gate113.iba.by] has quit [Quit: ..] 13:36:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:37:50 <Xach> _3b: Hmm, not sure if that's to be expected or not. 13:39:53 richard_ [~richard@117.43.242.203] has joined #lisp 13:43:54 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:00 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:21 <_3b> fontforge seems to show a bunch too 13:45:51 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:46:37 <Xach> I'm afraid I don't have time to look into it, sorry. I've forgotten much of what I knew about the file format and its internal structures. 13:47:25 <_3b> ok, i'll just filter out stuff with code-point = 0 for now 13:48:05 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:03 <_3b> hmm, guess i shouldn't check the entire font when i only want a few characters :) 13:52:59 <easyE> Anybody know much about building sbcl on opensolaris-x64? 13:53:27 <stassats> what's there to know, it either builds or it doesn't 13:54:59 <easyE> Someone that could point towards which compilers are used, etc. 13:56:51 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-83-175.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:57:20 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-vktbcyfoihbamabw] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:00:51 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-241-178.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:01:46 <_3b> Xach: end result = http://3bb.cc/tmp/letters2.png 14:02:24 <Xach> _3b: sweet! 14:02:43 *Xach* flashes back to Pixar's short foray into low-end software, Typistry 14:03:27 <Xach> _3b: is that cl-opengl? 14:03:43 <_3b> yeah 14:04:47 <Xach> Does it look cooler in motion? 14:05:25 <_3b> not a whole lot, but that's probably mostly because it doesn't move much :) 14:05:34 <_3b> just the light moves around a bit 14:06:14 <tsuru> _3b: vbos? 14:06:15 <_3b> can fly the camera around though, which helps see whats going on with the multiple layers 14:06:26 <_3b> tsuru: yeah, i think so 14:06:51 <nixfreak> sweet you did that in lisp 14:07:00 <tsuru> _3b: O_o. think so? using an external lib? 14:07:13 pnq [~nick@ACA2B223.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:07:23 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@195.22.80.141] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 14:07:31 <_3b> nixfreak: mostly, glu did some of the hard work (triangulating the ttf outlines), but that could probably be replaced with cl-geometry i think 14:07:37 <p_l|backup> easyE: go with GCC, I believe 14:07:45 <_3b> tsuru: more that i wrote that part a few days ago :p 14:07:54 <nixfreak> very cool 14:08:04 <_3b> tsuru: been focusing on generating the geometry rather than the rendering 14:08:06 <p_l|backup> easyE: while Sun CC went into considerable lengths to be code compatible with GCC, it refused to bring all the braindamage 14:08:55 <nixfreak> did you just starting playing around with opengl or find a tutorial somewhere 14:09:18 *_3b* has been doing opengl stuff for a while, if not as much of it as i would like 14:09:39 <Guthur> _3b: I like how the lambda symbol is pretty prominent 14:09:44 <Guthur> was that intentional? 14:09:48 sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-177.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 14:09:59 <_3b> Guthur: more or less :) 14:10:27 *_3b* didn't actively place it, but retried the random character selection a few times to get one 14:10:42 <Guthur> hehe, looks good overall though 14:12:27 <_3b> something like 390k tris in the entire scene, for 216 characters 14:12:40 <_3b> (assuming i'm counting them correctly, which isn't guaranteed) 14:13:19 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:13:20 <_3b> actually may be off by a factor of 3 14:13:22 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-104-67.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:13:53 <splittist> eat your heart out Termkit (: 14:14:02 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-162-9.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:14:06 Sgeo_ [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:21 <jdz> splittist: clim listener done pretty 14:14:48 <easyE> p_l|backup: Thanks, I'm trying with a gcc toolchain that I "brought forward" from opensolaris to openindiana for which the I am getting errors for invoking the assembler. Can I force it to try to use the bundled toolchain? Just by telling it to use CC=cc 14:16:49 -!- Sgeo [~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:16:52 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:17:30 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:17:48 <_3b> http://3bb.cc/tmp/letters2-wireframe.png 14:17:48 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.148.255] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:25 <Xach> cool 14:19:09 <p_l|backup> easyE: possibly 14:19:26 <p_l|backup> easyE: I don't know how good SBCL is in supporting non-gcc compilers 14:19:31 <p_l|backup> (unlike ECL) 14:20:23 <Guthur> _3b: that looks like a lot of tris 14:20:38 <Guthur> how does it look with a reduction 14:21:16 <Xach> MORE TRIS 14:21:28 <Guthur> MORE QUALITY 14:21:38 *_3b* should store the random seed so i can regenerate the same scene with different parameters 14:22:02 <Guthur> you need to get the seed with the Lambda 14:22:09 <_3b> i think that is subdividing the quadratics to ~15 deg 14:22:11 <Guthur> Lambda is cool 14:22:19 <Guthur> LAMBDA IS COOL 14:23:42 <tsuru> _3b: I'm also curious to see CJK font triangulations :P 14:24:00 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.46.118] has joined #lisp 14:24:39 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@mail.powersense.dk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:24:39 <_3b> tsuru: pick a font on my system with cjk characters :p 14:24:45 <Zhivago> more shouting 14:24:57 <Guthur> Zhivago: you forgot to shout 14:26:19 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B633.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:20 urandom__ [~user@p548A38A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:15 <bobbysmith007> nikodemus: I just started trying to test drive your slime-indentation branch, and loading slime I get a "calculate-lisp-indent: Symbol's function definition is void: cl-indent:function" am I doing it wrong, or is it just a transient bug? 14:28:18 xan_ [~xan@190.Red-193-152-189.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:26 <tsuru> _3b: hmmm... Deja Vu Sans? maybe 14:29:35 <nixfreak> does anyone know some good links or books about distributed computing with lisp 14:30:09 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.46.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:30:53 akimbo [~oy@nat/redhat/x-ducjctrjrtqfeskd] has joined #lisp 14:32:22 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 14:35:48 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:37:12 <bobbysmith007> nikodemus: never mind, that was bad config in my init 14:37:42 <_3b> tsuru: http://3bb.cc/tmp/letters2-cjk.png http://3bb.cc/tmp/letters2-cjk-wireframe.png 14:38:15 <_3b> tsuru: using kochi-mincho.ttf, and 10 degree curve subdivision 14:38:31 <_3b> ~5x as many tris as the previous images 14:40:00 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@adsl-75-36-176-90.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 14:41:50 *Xach* sees into the matrix 14:41:58 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:42:37 <antoszka> _3b: Would you mind sharing some code for those samples? (/me curious) 14:43:23 <_3b> it will be on github at some point (though won't work with official cl-opengl for a while) 14:43:53 <antoszka> cool 14:44:35 TristamWrk [~tristam@dark-sage-71.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 14:44:37 *_3b* wrote the code to test out glu tesselation patches to cl-opengl, and found a few things that still need fixed in the patches before merging it 14:44:44 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:45:59 <tsuru> nice 14:48:44 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:49:42 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 14:51:14 <morphism> hey, between Iphone 4 and HTC DHD, which one suit better for CL development ? 14:51:33 <Fade> neither 14:51:35 <rsynnott> you mean you want to target them with CL, or you want to write CL on them? 14:51:53 <rsynnott> if you want to target them with CL, it's possible on both in principle 14:52:15 <Fade> kawa and gambit both seem to have reasonable support for various handsets. 14:52:34 <morphism> I want to target them, plus write CL on them :) 14:52:43 <rsynnott> ccl has actually been ported to ARM 14:52:56 <morphism> (hey, but did you mean interpreter CL file on it ? ) 14:53:09 <morphism> yeah, so Iphone will be able to work w/ CCL 14:53:10 <rsynnott> which could make it a quite attractive iOS development thing if someone got its objective C bridge going 14:53:11 <morphism> :P 14:53:19 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:53:32 <morphism> then we will have GUI on Cocoa ? 14:53:43 <rsynnott> I believe people have gotten lisp-like things (clojure, etc) going on the Android JVM-alike 14:53:45 <morphism> (I thought CCL has Obj-C support along w/ Cocoa already ) 14:53:48 <Fade> ccl's objective-c bridge is pretty sweet. 14:53:59 -!- richard_ [~richard@117.43.242.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:54:00 <Fade> you'd have to find out if that works on arm 14:54:09 <rsynnott> and and then there's this: https://github.com/gonzojive/ecl-iphone 14:54:09 <Fade> i suspect the work hasn't been done 14:54:15 <rsynnott> Fade: I don't think it does at this time, nope 14:54:19 <morphism> :-? I haven't got one to test 14:54:37 -!- cpape [root@linux01.gwdg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:54:39 <rsynnott> morphism: you can download emulators/simulators from Apple and Google 14:55:09 <rsynnott> morphism: and this: https://github.com/ageneau/ecl-android 14:55:14 <morphism> will macro cause performance issue with such a low spec like those 2 phone ? 14:55:19 <splittist> morpism: I suggest you get a really dumb phone, then you'll actually spend more time developing in CL and less time killing pigs (: 14:55:46 <Fade> recent telephones are hardly 'low-spec' by historical lisp standards. 14:55:48 <Fade> heh 14:55:57 <rsynnott> I'd imagine iOS might be marginally less painful, because you're allowed have pure native code applications 14:56:27 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:56:28 <rsynnott> (you also can in the latest version of Android, but they're limited in what they're allowed access without going over a jni bridge) 14:56:42 nixfreak_ [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:08 <p_l|backup> rsynnott: I'm doubtful about how free one is on iOS once you step outside the supplied compiler/linker tools, though 14:58:26 <rsynnott> p_l|backup: with ecl you'd still be using the supplied C stuff 14:58:31 <morphism> rsynnott, ah thanks, ecl is the 1st impl of CL on ARM , isn't it ? 14:58:31 <morphism> rsynnott, what do you mean by "Pure native code" on iOS ? 14:58:31 <morphism> can't we do it on Android ? 14:58:53 <rsynnott> as long as you can interface with its system libraries, and you're not using JIT, you should generally be okay these days 14:59:00 <rsynnott> morphism: in Android 2.3, yes 14:59:06 <rsynnott> recent addition to the NDK 14:59:13 <rsynnott> previously, you needed java wrappers for everything 14:59:49 <p_l|backup> morphism: you can't use pure native code to interact with android. The NativeActivity is bundled wrapper and a set of native paths for input, graphics and sound 15:00:13 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:00:14 <p_l|backup> the code still is a JNI-called shared library 15:01:53 <morphism> Hey, I hate Java ( sorry java fanboy ) , so everything relate to it , I won't put my hand on 15:01:53 <morphism> (but C , C++ and Obj - C are fine : P ) 15:02:25 <rsynnott> that said, accessing ObjC stuff from C, while possible, is quite painful 15:02:37 <p_l|backup> rsynnott: not as much as C++ 15:02:59 <rsynnott> so, in the absence of a decent CL-ObjC or CL-Java bridge which works on iOS/Android, none of the options are really brilliant 15:03:41 <morphism> =.= thanks 15:03:48 <morphism> I know I can still dev something fun on my PC 15:03:59 <morphism> but it's cool to take CL anywhere I want 15:04:01 <morphism> :P 15:04:01 <rsynnott> might be worth looking at lisp-like things which work in the JVM 15:04:20 <morphism> I will stay away from JVM for sure 15:04:32 <rsynnott> sadly, ABCL does _not_ work on the Android JVM-alike 15:04:33 <p_l|backup> (*(*obj - <pointer size>)+pointer_size*vtable_id <--- regarding C++ from C... 15:04:38 <morphism> just like some CL impl on .NET made me bored 15:04:57 <Fade> there is a clojure repl for android. 15:05:05 <morphism> C is fine, don't really need Obj-C or C++ 15:05:06 <Fade> but my experience with it is that it is very slow. 15:06:17 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2B223.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:43 -!- trgn [c1aca602@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.172.166.2] has quit [] 15:11:21 <morphism> Fade, on iOS ? 15:11:36 <Fade> no, i have a samsung galaxy S 15:11:39 <Fade> android 15:11:48 <Fade> i don't know anything about the iphone. 15:12:09 <p_l|backup> Fade: Clojure hits the GC heavily, especially on 2.2 and earlier 15:12:18 <morphism> ah..so which os did you mean "Slow" ? 15:12:29 <Fade> p_l|backup: that would explain my experience playing with it. 15:12:41 <Fade> I don't think it'd be useful for building an application, yet. 15:12:51 <morphism> Garbage Collection ? 15:13:10 <Fade> morphism: I meant that clojure is available on android, but the clojure runtime on the dalvik jvm is slow. 15:13:22 <Fade> fsvo slow 15:13:32 <Fade> i found it too slow. 15:14:33 <morphism> ya , I got you 15:14:34 <morphism> :P 15:15:20 <Fade> if you want to use sexp's to develop apps for handsets, I think atm, the best option is either kawa or gambit. 15:15:20 <morphism> thanks 15:15:52 <p_l|backup> Fade: if you were constantly boggled in >100ms pauses, you'd be slow as well :D 15:16:04 <Fade> I'm definitely slow. 15:16:24 <Fade> which is why I have all these silicon based computational prosthetics hanging around. 15:17:31 -!- a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has quit [Quit: changing servers] 15:17:42 <rsynnott> it's likely that Clojure's current Dalvik stuff isn't brillian, even aside from the GC 15:17:46 a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:55 e-user1 [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-hgczwsxyettgamnn] has joined #lisp 15:18:04 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-aealeqryqokjmbil] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:18:29 <Fade> the java condom that wraps everything on android is a PITA 15:18:49 <morphism> CL is GC - builtin too, what make it faster ? 15:18:51 <Fade> i hope the ccl support for arm makes progress 15:18:58 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.138.8] has joined #lisp 15:19:48 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-132-27.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:20:16 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:20:17 *splittist* giggles 15:20:58 <morphism> as long as ARM structure is more popular 15:21:00 <morphism> I hope so 15:22:00 -!- e-user1 [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-hgczwsxyettgamnn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:22:01 <Fade> at this point it's more about reasonable access to the system services on the handsets. 15:22:09 <Fade> than about the ISA 15:22:15 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-flnnbkdcwsoytgqk] has joined #lisp 15:22:23 louxiu [~AndChat@117.136.7.70] has joined #lisp 15:24:01 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:26:42 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:30:48 -!- louxiu [~AndChat@117.136.7.70] has quit [Quit: Bye] 15:31:34 <bobbysmith007> nikodemus: thanks for the new slime-indentation stuff! I am quite liking it 15:32:11 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:34:14 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:45 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:13 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:36:28 add^_ [~add^_^@h153n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:40 <nikodemus> i'm slowly realizing how much brokenness there has been -- and still is 15:37:15 <nikodemus> for shit and giggles, try (defun foo (let\nbar\nfoo) ...) 15:37:43 <Xach> It's almost like indentation is based on a tottering pile of pattern matching and heuristics. 15:37:45 <nikodemus> cl-indent gets the lambda-list wrong because it use the indentation from let there 15:38:49 <nikodemus> "obviously" it should look outwards and pick that method ... but it's not obvious to me how to decide when that should be done, exactly 15:38:57 <nikodemus> because sometimes the local method is better 15:39:24 <nikodemus> perhaps just &lambda should be special cased 15:39:38 <stassats> it's not limited to indentation, arglist displays the arglist of let there too 15:41:19 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-175-105.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 15:41:20 <Krystof> climacs gets all this right 15:41:52 gz__ [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:54 <stassats> and for user-defined forms too? 15:41:57 <nikodemus> i wonder if i should rewrite this crap cribbing from climacs 15:42:34 kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.3] has joined #lisp 15:42:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.3] has quit [Changing host] 15:42:34 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:42:37 <Krystof> stassats: I think so, at least to the extent of &body/&rest and so on 15:42:50 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-132-27.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 15:42:56 <Krystof> it's based on a parse of the buffer, not on a tottering pile of pattern matching and heuristics 15:43:16 <bobbysmith007> I really like the named common-lisp-style, and per file/buffer configuration, good stuff 15:43:37 <nikodemus> you're on bleeding edge, then 15:43:37 <splittist> It makes everything except LOOP reasonably simple... 15:43:48 -!- gz__ [Clozure@clozure-123267BA.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 15:43:55 <stassats> i guess per source-tree configuration would be good 15:44:04 <bobbysmith007> just pulled an hour ago ;) 15:44:41 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-162-9.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:44:51 <nikodemus> bobbysmith007: if you pull again you get my attempt to fix walking of nested &whole specs 15:45:42 <p_l|backup> rsynnott: Clojure so far has no DVM-specific code, though someone supposedly made some way there 15:45:58 -!- gz__ [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:46:23 <p_l|backup> morphism: the issue is that a GC that works fine for typical Java app fails horribly when faced with patterns exhibited by Lisp 15:46:47 <p_l|backup> lisps tend to CONS a lot in normal operation 15:46:55 HG` [~HG@p579F7355.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:31 *sellout-* wrote a non-consing lisp. 15:49:21 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-169-82-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:44 <lisppaste> nikodemus pasted "at least this isn't obviously wrong" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122124 15:50:36 markskilbeck [~mark@host81-152-185-201.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:36 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host81-152-185-201.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:50:36 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:50:37 <nikodemus> i think the problem has been threefold: #1 cl-indent.el has been part of emacs, so people haven't been inclined to fix minor annoyances -- they'd still get to maintain their own local copy for the next year or two till emacs releases again #2 it's elisp, so for a cl hacker diving in takes some extra motivation #3 there hasn't been anyone actively maintaing it who understands the code -- and knows what's an accident of history and what actually s 15:50:37 <nikodemus> erves a purpose 15:51:45 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:55:23 kpreid [~kpreid@nat/google/x-hilcoouqairldajh] has joined #lisp 15:55:42 <antifuchs> so far, nikodemus is our only cl-indent expert! 15:56:00 <antifuchs> (I have tried to understand emacs indentation in the past, and have failed miserably) 15:56:06 <splittist> quck - clone him! 15:56:22 <antifuchs> nikodemus: do you have a git repo somewhere? 15:56:39 <antifuchs> "hardcore forking action" 15:56:41 *antifuchs* shudders 15:56:45 <Guthur> a git repo of nikodemus 15:56:50 <Guthur> so we can clone him 15:57:17 <Fade> are any of you guys using climacs as your editor? 15:57:34 <bobbysmith007> nikodemus: whats the entrypoint for a package specifying indentations (it used to be swank::*application-hints-tables*, but that seems not to work anymore (which is fine once I update it to the new way to set indentation)) 15:57:42 <Xach> Fade: not me. too hard to install! 15:57:47 -!- pyrony [~epic@99-105-56-162.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:58:01 <stassats> if somebody was using it, it would be more usable 15:58:28 <stassats> but alas, no one is, no one reports and fixes bugs 15:59:30 <splittist> It's enough to know that it exists. It's sort of the Platonic editor, greater than which no editor can be concevied. 15:59:43 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:59:58 -!- akimbo [~oy@nat/redhat/x-ducjctrjrtqfeskd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:00:26 Cooper__ [jockc@faeroes.freeshell.org] has joined #lisp 16:00:28 <bobbysmith007> nikodemus: actually nm, just hadnt loaded stuff properly 16:00:41 alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 16:01:19 <Cooper__> dumb CLOS question -- do all methods for a generic need the same signature? (basically argument count) 16:01:32 <antifuchs> yes. 16:01:32 <stassats> yes 16:01:42 <stassats> the same number for required and optional parameters 16:01:50 <antifuchs> they can differ in keyword arguments if the GF specifies &key alone, or uses &allow-other-keys 16:01:55 <Cooper__> dunno why my brain is spazzing on that today 16:02:01 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 16:02:19 eihrul__ [~eihrul@80-186-199-216.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #lisp 16:03:10 <Zhivago> Just remember that there's only one function -- the generic function. 16:03:22 <Zhivago> The methods are fragments assembled within that. 16:03:36 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:03:47 <Cooper__> makes sense..thansk 16:05:47 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:07:29 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.171.184] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:08:40 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:55 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 16:15:35 -!- alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has quit [Quit: alama] 16:16:28 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:18:00 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-flnnbkdcwsoytgqk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:18:09 billitch [~billitch@78.250.135.31] has joined #lisp 16:18:21 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:18:23 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:18:33 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.156.210] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:18:45 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:21:06 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:21:44 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.161.39] has joined #lisp 16:23:33 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host117-236-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:23:57 Posterdati [~tapioca@host117-236-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:24:44 billitch_ [~billitch@78.250.133.71] has joined #lisp 16:24:56 -!- splittist [~splittist@143-131.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:25:20 <Posterdati> hi 16:27:43 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.135.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:28:13 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:28:29 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 16:36:15 wccoder [~wccoder@d64-180-206-148.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:29 -!- billitch_ [~billitch@78.250.133.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:36:38 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:37:17 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:37:25 billitch [~billitch@78.250.141.70] has joined #lisp 16:38:27 pnq [~nick@AC8148AD.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:58 markskilbeck [~mark@host86-137-226-12.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:58 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host86-137-226-12.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:38:58 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 16:41:27 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 16:41:49 gz_ [~gz@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:41 -!- Harag [~phil@dsl-242-248-163.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:46:01 Harag [~phil@dsl-242-248-163.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:46:18 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-241-178.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 16:47:55 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:49:36 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:17 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-128-34.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:44 leyyer_s` [~user@222.212.115.210] has joined #lisp 16:55:11 -!- leyyer_su [~user@222.212.115.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:39 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 16:55:39 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 16:55:39 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:55:40 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Client Quit] 16:58:49 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-88.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:45 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.161.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:02:04 <Qworkescence> yesterday I learned that concatenating one million or so two-char strings is not very fast (using CONCATENATE) 17:02:39 <stassats> good, now you know not to do it 17:03:08 <antifuchs> Qworkescence: surprise! 17:03:12 <Qworkescence> :) 17:03:13 <antifuchs> Qworkescence: try a string-output-stream? 17:03:21 -!- algorist__ [~quassel@host117-236-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:03:27 <stassats> try make-string and loop? 17:03:30 loke [~elias@bb219-74-161-1.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 17:03:31 <Qworkescence> antifuchs, I just did (make-string SIZE) since I could predict 17:03:47 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.141.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:48 <Qworkescence> then looped and setf subseq'd 17:03:53 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:04:06 <Qworkescence> so much for functional-style code 17:04:09 <antifuchs> that's even better 17:04:23 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:04:37 algorist_ [~quassel@host195-230-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:04:50 <stassats> real mean don't need functional-style 17:05:06 <antifuchs> neither do averages! 17:05:12 <antifuchs> or standard deviants! 17:05:13 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host117-236-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:05:24 <stassats> so, who's left? 17:05:27 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 17:05:28 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-rbqhkmygftmrgwns] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:44 <Night-Hacks> hi 17:05:48 <stassats> ivory tower habitants? 17:06:13 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-98-177.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:06:31 <Qworkescence> I'd rather REDUCE #'CONCATENATE then do the whole loop dealio 17:06:54 <stassats> Qworkescence: i'd rather not have such a problem in the first place 17:07:38 <Qworkescence> Neither would I but CL-PDF isn't very sophisticated 17:08:00 <Night-Hacks> what does colon means behind title (format t "~a" :title) ? colons have a lots of usages in clisp ! 17:08:19 <Qworkescence> Night-Hacks, it means title is a keyword 17:08:36 turbofai` [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:37 billitch [~billitch@78.250.141.70] has joined #lisp 17:08:44 <stassats> it's the same as keyword::title 17:08:44 <Cooper__> it is a symbol in the keyword package 17:08:51 -!- gz_ [~gz@173-162-137-153-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 17:09:16 sacho [~sacho@95-42-72-242.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 17:09:21 <Qworkescence> doesn't this code look pretty http://paste.lisp.org/display/122127 17:09:23 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:10:26 <loke> why do some people use : as a prefix to all LOOP keywords? Readability? 17:10:45 <antifuchs> loke: emacs highlights keywords differently 17:11:00 <loke> antifuchs: Yep, I know. That's why I asked if it was because of readability. 17:11:02 <antifuchs> also, it doesn't intern FOR or IN in the current package 17:11:08 <Qworkescence> I do it for interning 17:11:16 <homie> variable capture! 17:11:17 <antifuchs> maybe it's that. I find it a bit pointless (: 17:11:18 <homie> ? 17:11:29 <Night-Hacks> Keyword means reserved word ? 17:11:34 <antifuchs> Night-Hacks: no. 17:11:41 <antifuchs> Night-Hacks: it means "symbol in the keyword package" (: 17:11:43 <loke> antifuchs: if one is worried about interning, one should perhaps do (loop #:foo x #:from 0 #:below 10 #:collect (1+ x)) 17:11:44 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:11:55 <loke> that's not very pretty though :-) 17:12:00 <antifuchs> loke: exactly. I avoid the keyword-y loop stuff. 17:12:14 <Qworkescence> loke, I don't care what gets interned in the keyword package. 17:12:20 *p_l|backup* likes keywordy loops, more readable 17:12:28 <Qworkescence> p_l|backup, :) 17:12:42 <Qworkescence> (get it? :) is like a keyword) 17:12:50 <antifuchs> :|)| 17:13:07 <loke> p_l|backup: I don't use the keywords, but I have no problems reading the code that uses them. 17:13:12 <Night-Hacks> as "this' in java ? 17:13:25 <loke> Night-Hacks: something like that 17:13:34 <stassats> keyword loops, argh, how i hate those! 17:13:41 <Qworkescence> Night-Hacks, a keyword is a symbol (1) in the keyword package, and (2) that equals itself 17:13:53 <antifuchs> Night-Hacks: "this" is a reserved word in java. 17:14:04 <antifuchs> Night-Hacks: a keyword in lisp is just a convenience thing. 17:14:20 <Qworkescence> What are they called in ruby? 17:14:45 -!- leyyer_s` [~user@222.212.115.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:47 <loke> antifuchs: perhaps tutorials should start out explaining keywords by specifying them as 'keyword:the-keyword ? 17:14:56 <turbofai`> ruby calls them "symbols" 17:14:57 <Night-Hacks> ok ... 17:14:58 <antifuchs> Qworkescence: "symbol" 17:15:09 <Qworkescence> oh 17:15:15 -!- turbofai` is now known as turbofail 17:15:23 <antifuchs> loke: I can't help but think that would be a very awful tutorial (: 17:15:47 <antifuchs> I mean, it would help learn the language correctly. but it wouldn't actually motivate anyone to learn it (: 17:15:54 <Qworkescence> ha 17:15:56 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.141.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:15:58 <loke> antifuchs: haha. Well, only for a chapter or less. Then it can be explained that the keywords are bound to themselves. 17:16:30 <loke> I'm just saying, since it took me far longer than I wish to admit to understand what the hell a keyword is :-) 17:17:42 <antifuchs> if you would go this far, then it's probably better to start out writing code by modifying cons pairs and feeding them to an evaluator 17:17:43 <p_l|backup> Qworkescence: (loop :for || in || :do ...) ^_- 17:17:43 Posterdati [~tapioca@host195-230-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:17:53 <stassats> loke: keyword::the-keyword, rather 17:17:57 <p_l|backup> names are fun 17:17:59 <stassats> : doesn't intern 17:18:04 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:04 <Qworkescence> p_l|backup, :))) 17:18:12 <antifuchs> that way, people won't even start mistaking the textual representation of code for the data structure (: 17:18:25 varjag_ [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:18:48 <loke> antifuchs: well that's true. That's also a common misconception 17:19:12 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 17:20:08 <pjb> p_l|backup: there's no need to escape non-ascii symbols, because they cannot possibly be anything else. 17:20:19 <antifuchs> loke: and I think they're closely related 17:20:35 kai__ [~kai@e179012039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:37 -!- kai__ is now known as wetnosed 17:21:29 -!- Landr [~user@78-21-55-201.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:40 LakatosI [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has joined #lisp 17:22:12 <LakatosI> Who is/was Lemonodor? 17:22:24 <p_l|backup> pjb: thy sometims confuse the reader (seen that happen with CCL) 17:22:32 <fe[nl]ix> LakatosI: a great hero of past times 17:22:39 <Xach> LakatosI: a guy who blogged about lisp a lot 17:22:41 <LakatosI> I see that he had a blog in the past 17:22:50 <LakatosI> Why did he stop? 17:23:26 <stassats> lisp became to popular and not hip enough 17:23:34 <stassats> s/to/too/ 17:24:03 <pjb> p_l|backup: there may be problems if the encodings are not set consistently, but otherwise unicode characters are well supported. 17:24:12 <antifuchs> LakatosI: interest shift, most likely. he still posts regularly over at tumblr.com, but there's no lisp there. 17:24:39 <stassats> maybe he made a fortune with lisp and retired and forgot about it? 17:24:58 billitch [~billitch@78.250.141.70] has joined #lisp 17:25:02 <LakatosI> I hope not... 17:25:07 <loke> Yay. Defmacro LAMBDA to  17:25:25 <antifuchs> stassats: nope, became a googler 17:25:38 <antifuchs> there can be no activity outside the hive mind. 17:25:42 <LakatosI> I was already content with the thought that I probably won't make money with Lisp 17:25:44 <Harag> lol 17:25:57 <loke> (defconstant  nil) 17:26:16 <LakatosI> lol 17:26:20 <antifuchs> LakatosI: if that is what you want, go ahead. there are a bunch of well-paid positions though. 17:26:32 <antifuchs> and a bunch of not-so-well-paid ones too! (: 17:27:08 <LakatosI> Nah, I'm just fooling around. 17:27:13 <loke> I'm forcing Lisp into my current job. Have to build a small webapp where I can choose technology. Welcome Hunchentoot :-) 17:27:20 <LakatosI> Although I have seen that Lisp jobs are quite scarce 17:27:39 <Harag> lisp is good for business 17:28:15 <Harag> and there is a lot of money to made out of lisp...in the category of non rocket science atleast 17:28:20 <LakatosI> I forced Lisp onto my project buddy I'm working with 17:28:49 <Cooper__> I use Lisp for some things in my job 17:29:10 <LakatosI> Still, because he wasn't very good with Lisp yet, implemented our webapplication mostly in Rails... 17:29:47 <loke> LakatosI: I have an aversion to Ruby syntax... 17:30:01 <LakatosI> loke: I can't stand it. 17:30:08 <Qworkescence> . o O (Does antifuchs use lisp at his job?) 17:30:14 <loke> LakatosI: I can barely stand it. It's Python syntax I can't stand :-) 17:30:35 <naryl> loke: +1 :) 17:30:37 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:30:52 <LakatosI> I find it somewhat even more obnoxious than C/C++ syntax 17:30:57 akimbo [~oy@66.187.233.202] has joined #lisp 17:31:00 <loke> LakatosI: C or C++ 17:31:30 <LakatosI> C++ 17:31:32 <loke> LakatosI: C syntax is mostly consistent, except where it isn't. C++, however, is another dimension of insanity. 17:31:36 <Qworkescence> lisp syntax is obnoxious 17:31:49 <LakatosI> I'm ok with C 17:31:56 <LakatosI> Have you seen the new C++ specification? 17:32:15 <LakatosI> Even more madness 17:32:17 <loke> LakatosI: I have better things to do than look at the 1000-page spec for a language I hate :-) 17:32:26 <LakatosI> lol 17:32:30 <Qworkescence> It's much more than 1k pages 17:32:32 pyrony [~epic@office1.klout.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:41 <loke> LakatosI: I've read about some of what they do in it though, and yes, it's pretty crazy 17:32:58 <LakatosI> Qworkescence: From what I understand Lisp doesn't even have a real syntax 17:33:01 <loke> Qworkescence: And people are complaining about the size of the CL spec? :-) 17:33:19 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 17:33:27 <Qworkescence> loke, the CL spec is big but only because it has all of the "library" functions included with examples and all that 17:33:44 <LakatosI> Just trees that are evaluated 17:33:55 <loke> LakatosI: to me, C++ looks like a thousand layers of band-aid to support the illusion that the language makes sense. 17:33:59 <Qworkescence> LakatosI, i blogged about this 17:33:59 <LakatosI> and a few special branches that have their own rules 17:34:00 ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:10 <loke> Qworkescence: I know, I was being ironic :-) 17:34:10 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:34:15 <LakatosI> And robots that take apart branches and reassemble them 17:34:18 ChibaPet [~mason@c-68-58-147-105.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:22 <Qworkescence> loke, o 17:35:03 <Qworkescence> LakatosI, http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=275 17:35:05 <LakatosI> I think I read your blogpost 17:35:20 <Qworkescence> o 17:35:23 Landr [~user@78-21-55-92.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:35:29 <loke> LakatosI: doesn't Boost have some bizarre overloading of operator/ so that you can do matrix operations like so: (foo /crossproduct/ bar) ? 17:36:50 <pjb> I wouldn't be surprised. 17:36:53 -!- cbp [~cesarbp@189.139.131.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:36:57 <LakatosI> I'm relatively new to Lisp 17:37:01 <LakatosI> loke: I don't really know :P 17:37:24 <Qworkescence> C++ is attempting to be Lisp in the long run, just starting from the worst foundation possible 17:37:53 <loke> LakatosI: when I saw that (and assuming that they actually think it's a good idea) was when I decided that the C++ community has completely lost it. 17:38:04 <LakatosI> I barely scratched the surface of Postmodern and cl-postgres 17:38:17 <pjb> loke: not at all. This is the standard technique to implement DSL in C++. 17:38:35 <loke> pjb: yeah, it all started with << and cout 17:38:40 brown [~user@nat/google/x-xywomcnubtvucewm] has joined #lisp 17:38:43 <Harag> lol 17:38:50 <loke> pjb: still doesn't make it in any way sane though 17:39:06 <Harag> sanity is over rated 17:39:06 -!- brown is now known as Guest68356 17:39:19 -!- Guest68356 is now known as reb 17:39:26 <LakatosI> but also under-funded 17:39:29 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip72-204-247-114.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:39:40 <pjb> loke: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html 17:40:13 <nikodemus> antifuchs: if you have a moment to look at https://github.com/nikodemus/SBCL/commit/41a8117d8c325d3e3b4a6cac3de730e9509e329d it would be much appreciated 17:41:48 -!- topeak [~topeak@180.77.211.95] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:52 <LakatosI> pjb: You are a life-saver :D 17:43:10 <reb> nikodemus: I've been using your Slime indentation code lately. Is there a very to turn off the special indentation handling of &optional/&key in lambda lists? 17:43:19 <reb> s/very/way 17:43:24 <turbofail> hm... is there a good way to do fast line-oriented i/o in lisp? sbcl is taking around 11 seconds on a simple task for which python takes 2 17:43:31 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-128-34.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:43:41 <LakatosI> I have been thinking lately of writing my own custom preprocessor for C++ 17:43:57 <pjb> turbofail: python works with (unsigned-byte 8) data elements. lisp works with characters (unicode, etc). 17:44:19 <reb> turbofail: The difference could also be related to the expense of formatting or pretty printing. 17:44:26 <LakatosI> So I can implement lisp-style macros in c++ 17:44:29 <nikodemus> reb: which part of it? 17:44:36 <lichtblau> shouldn't "Number of commits on origin/master since last release." be "Number of commits on BOTH origin/master AND THE CURRENT BRANCH since last release." -- since changes to origin/master since the branch point don't matter? 17:44:42 -!- Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:44:50 <dlowe> turbofail: it's almost certainly due to utf-8 encoding. Try setting the :external-type to (unsigned-byte 8) and see how you do 17:44:50 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:02 <turbofail> ok 17:45:06 <nikodemus> (setq lisp-lambda-list-keyword-parameter-indentation 0) might be what you're looking for 17:45:32 <dlowe> turbofail: actually, that won't work. Set it to base-char 17:45:38 <lichtblau> (that's in reference to the README only; I didn't compare with the code) 17:45:49 <reb> The desire is to indent the line following "(defun foobar (x y &optional" so as to align the next argument under x. 17:46:19 <nikodemus> reb, no, not supported right now 17:46:33 <nikodemus> let me see what needs to be done to allow that 17:46:55 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.233.111] has joined #lisp 17:47:20 <reb> The desire is to turn off the special handling of &optional/&key .... 17:48:15 <reb> I also have a question about how you format your lambda lists. Do you tend to place the &optional on a separate line? 17:48:35 <pjb> I would if it aligned correctly. 17:48:36 <reb> If not, the optional args can end up indented far to the right. 17:48:39 <LakatosI> loke: The only thing I like about Ruby is that it has symbols 17:48:49 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8148AD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:48:53 <dlowe> reb: too many arguments is a code smell 17:50:15 <loke> LakatosI: :-) 17:50:20 <reb> dlowe: Say I have 3 required arguments and 2 optional ones .... 17:50:34 <lisppaste> pjb pasted "indenting &optional &key ..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122129 17:50:45 -!- Krystof [~csr21@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:50:55 <sellout-> reb: That's not many  look at the CLIM spec. 17:50:58 <dlowe> pjb: interesting 17:50:59 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:12 <Harag> urg 17:51:12 *dlowe* almost never uses &optional anyway 17:51:19 <reb> ... if I place &optional at the end of the first line the optional parameters are going to look pretty bad hanging out on the right side of my window. 17:51:33 <sellout-> Yeah, I pretty much use &key exclusively. 17:51:44 <turbofail> ok, with latin-1 as the external format it goes a little bit faster - 8 seconds as opposed to 11 17:51:55 <loke> You guys ever use &aux? 17:51:59 <dlowe> no, never 17:52:00 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.235.249] has joined #lisp 17:52:10 <pjb> turbofail: but internally, each byte is still stored in a 32-bit word! 17:52:13 <sellout-> reb: If the parameter list is long, I first put a newline before the parameter list. If it's still to long, I put each &whatever at the start of a new line. 17:52:28 <sellout-> s/to/too/ 17:52:40 <reb> OK, say &key instead of &optional ... I'm just trying to understand the rationale behind the recent lambda list formatting changes. 17:52:41 <dlowe> pjb: is there a slime indentation hack for that style? 17:52:49 <reb> sellout: ok 17:52:50 <pjb> I don't know, but that's how I'd want it. 17:52:58 <dlowe> pjb: yeah, I like it 17:53:07 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.233.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:53:07 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 17:53:11 <turbofail> pjb: is there some way to make sbcl read in lines as byte-arrays? 17:53:22 <dlowe> turbofail: (unsigned-byte 8) 17:53:23 <pjb> turbofail: open the file as a binary stream. 17:53:27 markskilbeck [~mark@host86-137-66-79.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:27 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host86-137-66-79.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:53:27 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 17:53:31 <pjb> :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) 17:53:53 <pjb> And process buffers (make-array ... :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) 17:54:04 <sellout-> pjb: I think nikodemus' slime-indentation stuff does something similar to your paste, except it aligns on the "&". 17:54:07 BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-42.hypernet.biz.pl] has joined #lisp 17:54:15 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-42.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:54:17 <pjb> sellout-: that's acceptable too. 17:54:32 <pjb> The important part is that k3 is below k1 and o3 below o1. 17:54:49 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:54:59 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:55:14 <Harag> i would vote for the "aligns on "&"" 17:55:16 <turbofail> looks like i would have to implement the line-reading functionality myself if i use :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) 17:56:16 <Xach> I wish it was really fast. 17:56:37 <Harag> Xach: your car? 17:56:44 <pjb> turbofail: yes. 17:56:57 <Xach> Harag: read-line in sbcl. 17:57:10 <Harag> yeah 17:57:29 <Harag> if it was my db project would be feasible 17:57:41 <nikodemus> sellout-: didier's work, not mine :) 17:57:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:58:01 <nikodemus> reb: i can add support for the super narrow style you seem to want 17:58:28 <sellout-> nikodemus: Yeah, didn't remember which of you did that part. I know he did the multiple method-combination bit, which I am ecstatic about. 18:01:07 sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:17 <reb> nikodemus: It's likely someone will prefer it. I think I'm happy with the indentation ... so long as &key is on a separate line to the args aren't way to the right. 18:01:25 <reb> s/to/so 18:02:01 <reb> ... but then you end up burning a line for &key, which seems a bit wasteful. 18:03:03 -!- Cooper__ [jockc@faeroes.freeshell.org] has quit [Quit: Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?] 18:03:43 <nikodemus> reb: which settings are you using right now? 18:04:16 mortenaa [~mortenaa@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 18:05:03 <reb> keyword-alignment true keyword-parameter-alignment true 18:05:25 -!- mortenaa [~mortenaa@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 18:06:16 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:33 <LakatosI> I find it interesting that instead of talking about ways to overcome limittions of their language programmers here medidate on how to properly indent their code :) 18:08:36 <Harag> what limitations? 18:09:11 <reb> LakatosI: Indentation and coding style are serious matters! 18:09:48 <LakatosI> Harag: When I was talking about limitations I was refering to other languages :) 18:10:15 ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has joined #lisp 18:11:32 <Harag> aah, well there are limitations... time and money ... and for us lisp newbies without a formal eduction there's the brain capacity issue aswell but thats not lisps fault...;) 18:12:01 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.106.197] has joined #lisp 18:13:10 <Harag> LakatosI: lispers will let you get away with a "ugly" or "uneccessary" macro ... but if you dont indent right "woe unto you" 18:13:14 <Harag> ;) 18:13:49 <nikodemus> reb: are you using my git repo or slime cvs? 18:13:49 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.141.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.235.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:14:06 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 18:14:26 <LakatosI> :)) 18:14:40 <LakatosI> I guess I shouldn't be posting any of my code here any time soon :P 18:14:50 <lichtblau> LakatosI: indentation in Lisp isn't usually something to talk about, but GNU emacs bugs in that direction have caused two popular IDEs in recent years to have long-standing deviations from standard indentation practise, and evidently SLIME is finally getting up to speed with 80s indentation technology. I think that's good news. 18:15:24 <nikodemus> LakatosI: indentation isn't a regular topic here. last few weeks have been an exeception as i've been working on cl-indent.el and pushing the topic and asking questions 18:15:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.106.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:15:49 <LakatosI> nikodemus: I see. Looking forward to it 18:16:23 <Harag> LakatosI: dont let them fool you if you ever dare to paste any code to lisppaste make sure the indention is correct ...hehehe 18:17:04 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-223.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:05 <LakatosI> Understood 18:17:30 <sellout-> Harag: Right, but correct is easy. There's not much disagreement on what that is. 18:17:41 <Harag> agreed 18:17:49 <LakatosI> Are there any Lisp projects a Lisp newbie could get into to help out? 18:17:56 <LakatosI> I have kind of a writers block 18:18:08 <Harag> but knowing what is right and doing it is two different things ;) 18:18:18 <Guthur> how far away is an update to the current indentation tech level 18:18:22 <LakatosI> I would really like to write some code but I have no idea what to write :P 18:18:55 <nikodemus> a patricia tree would be nice 18:20:29 -!- eihrul__ [~eihrul@80-186-199-216.elisa-mobile.fi] has left #lisp 18:20:40 *Harag* wonders how many hits google just got for "patricia tree"... 18:20:53 <dlowe> LakatosI: the world needs a text version of pacman 18:21:06 <dlowe> actually, make a pacman rogue-like 18:21:41 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.138.8] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:21:41 <LakatosI> dlowe: That idea is so crazy it might just work! :) 18:21:56 <homie> a pacman mud would be better 18:22:10 <Harag> oooooo 18:22:12 enupten [~neptune@117.192.67.22] has joined #lisp 18:22:19 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.192.67.22] has quit [Client Quit] 18:22:19 <homie> run run a pacman is behind you swallowing it's teeth at your back! 18:22:24 <dlowe> homie: north. eat dot. north. eat dot. south. there is a ghost here. 18:22:38 <homie> oh nooooseeee an ege in sight! turn right tuuuuurn riiiiiight! 18:22:39 <homie> lol 18:23:08 <homie> s/ege/edge/ s/ege/corner/ 18:23:18 <Guthur> dlowe, you work on a game, right? 18:23:26 <LakatosI> homie: an even crazier idea :) 18:23:32 <dlowe> Guthur: yep 18:23:38 <Guthur> what was it again 18:23:42 <dlowe> tempusmud.net 18:23:59 <Harag> homie: that sounded more like tron in text 18:24:04 <Guthur> who is the project going? 18:24:07 <Guthur> who/how 18:24:25 <Guthur> oh, nice site 18:24:30 <dlowe> well, the mud is doing great. The CL rewrite has stalled a bit due to lack of time on my part *sniff* 18:24:36 <LakatosI> howAmazing 18:24:38 <homie> Harag: nope, we lack motorcycles 18:24:54 <LakatosI> How functional is the game? 18:25:21 <dlowe> LakatosI: very. It's a full mud. It just lacks a lot of the features of the production version 18:25:21 <Harag> homie: all you need is ------- 18:25:37 alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 18:26:04 <homie> 3d pacman ? 18:26:07 <homie> lol 18:26:31 argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:44 -!- JimmyRcom [~jimmy@adsl-75-53-45-212.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28:52 <Harag> Stereogram pacman 18:29:41 <nikodemus> reb: cvs up or pull, and (setq lisp-lambda-list-indentation nil) 18:29:59 <LakatosI> 4d packman 18:30:00 <homie> hmm, we should rename it to pacwoman ? 18:30:13 <homie> lol 18:30:14 <Harag> homie: that pacman should eat brackets instead 18:30:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:30:41 <homie> i only into braces sorry 18:30:43 <homie> lol 18:30:50 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:30:52 <Harag> roflmao 18:32:09 <ChibaPet> dlowe - what's it written in today? 18:32:15 <dlowe> ChibaPet: C 18:32:21 <lisppaste> nikodemus annotated #122129 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122129#1 18:32:42 <dlowe> ChibaPet: It took about a year to do a conversion from C++ :p 18:32:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:52 <ChibaPet> I have dreams of crafting a multi-mod MMORPG that'll include mudlike interfacing as well as graphical. 18:32:59 <ChibaPet> multi-mode* 18:33:22 <reb> nikodemus: Great ... I'll try it. 18:33:39 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-175-105.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:33:42 <dlowe> ChibaPet: start now :D 18:34:09 <Guthur> ChibaPet, Runescape is a little like that 18:34:10 <ChibaPet> I've got a lot of designwork done. Now I need to shore up my understanding of Common Lisp, implement Erlangish lightweight threads, and have at it. 18:34:14 <dlowe> ChibaPet: I'd like to point out, though, from the trenches, that the code base only *looks* like the hard part. 18:34:23 <ChibaPet> heh 18:35:13 <ChibaPet> I'm looking at the hard part as being sane implementation of cross-platform OpenGL, expandable storyline and self-contained economy, sane infrastructure with seamless client updating, etc. 18:35:38 <dlowe> Heh. Nope. The hard part is making the content. 18:35:44 <dlowe> Players will flash through content that you spent a day making in less than ten seconds 18:36:12 <Guthur> There was a good article about WoW content dilemma 18:36:14 <ChibaPet> Ah, well. I plan to avoid that. This won't be a level-grind game. It'll be much more like EvE in terms of pacing. 18:36:24 <antifuchs> and the majority will miss every single detail you spent ages honing 18:36:24 <ChibaPet> WoW is a broken model. Not following that. 18:36:27 <Guthur> or rather sudden drop in subscribers 18:36:40 <Guthur> Blizzard thinks it is a content dilemma, but... 18:36:50 <Guthur> that article explains better 2 minutes 18:36:55 <ChibaPet> Yeah, I read about that, Guthur. They're going to lower prices or something. Their basic design is broken and folks are sick of it, is all. 18:37:01 <ChibaPet> Do you have a link? 18:37:02 <dlowe> ChibaPet: yeah, that's why no one is playing and Blizzard is broke. 18:37:11 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:37:20 <Guthur> it was gamasutra a couple of days ago 18:37:23 billitch [~billitch@78.250.141.70] has joined #lisp 18:37:24 <ChibaPet> dlowe - just because it's the only game in town now doesn't mean it's even close to optimal. :P 18:37:48 <dlowe> ChibaPet: no one is calling it optimal, but there's a huge leap from non-optimal to broken 18:37:57 <Guthur> http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/GregMcClanahan/20110515/7634/WoW_in_Decline_and_Blizzard_in_Denial.php 18:38:08 <ChibaPet> IMHO it's broken, but that's a discussion for another place and time. 18:38:09 <Guthur> ChibaPet, dlowe ^ 18:38:11 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 18:38:23 <Guthur> back in a bit 18:38:27 <dlowe> anyway, these games have a lifecycle. Just because WoW is reaching the end of theirs doesn't mean much. 18:38:34 <Guthur> more #lispgames this though 18:38:43 <dlowe> that's true 18:39:36 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:39:51 -!- mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:40:04 <Guthur> ChibaPet, you should come over to #lispgames 18:40:11 <ChibaPet> will do 18:40:33 mtd [~martin@chop.xades.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:54 <homie> united state of lisps! 18:41:58 <homie> :) 18:42:36 <stassats> united? you gotta be kidding! 18:42:54 <homie> eheh 18:43:02 <homie> oh my somone got the joke ! ? 18:43:45 <homie> well, at least they are similar, for some value of similar! 18:44:52 <homie> hmm, by the way i was only half way thru quinnec's doc 18:44:52 <LakatosI> united dialects of lisp 18:45:07 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:46:33 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:05 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:49:48 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:49:51 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@175.40.91.184.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:50:16 lanthan [~ze@p54B7E4B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:29 <ezakimak> I got clsql:connect to "succeed" (at least it says there's a connection), but now when I try to query I get "undefined-alien-function-error" 18:50:59 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-72-242.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:02 HG`` [~HG@p5DC04DAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:09 <homie> ezakimak: you used the package qualifying syntax for the commands ? 18:51:16 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7E4B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:51:25 <ezakimak> (clsql:query "select * from t") 18:51:27 <homie> ezakimak: like (clql:do-some-right...blah) ? 18:51:32 <homie> ah ok 18:51:42 <ezakimak> Evaluation aborted on #<SB-KERNEL::UNDEFINED-ALIEN-FUNCTION-ERROR {1003DB8DF1}>. 18:52:11 <ezakimak> I got "errors" when trying to call clsql:connect, 18:52:17 <ezakimak> it said it couldn't find the libraries 18:52:23 <homie> aha 18:52:25 <ezakimak> but it let me "continue" assuming it worked 18:52:29 <ezakimak> I'm guessing that's the problem 18:52:31 <ezakimak> ? 18:52:38 <ezakimak> but then why would it say it has an open connection? 18:52:39 <homie> nope, don't do that, it didn't succeed then 18:53:06 <homie> well it has a connection but it's not connected to any db then ? or it has auth priv issues ? 18:53:07 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7355.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:53:33 <homie> there's no preselected db, when you don't specify it ... 18:53:41 <ezakimak> no auth issues, I don't think 18:53:51 <homie> hmm, it sounds peculiar 18:54:14 <ezakimak> when I try clsql:connect I get: 18:54:19 <ezakimak> erred while invoking #<COMPILE-OP (:VERBOSE NIL) {10034A8321}> 18:54:19 <ezakimak> on 18:54:19 <ezakimak> #<CLSQL-MYSQL-SOURCE-FILE "clsql-mysql" "db-mysql" "clsql_mysql"> 18:54:19 <ezakimak> [Condition of type ASDF:OPERATION-ERROR] 18:54:29 lanthan [~ze@p54B7E4B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:46 <homie> it was not loaded ? 18:55:06 <homie> (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :clsql) ? 18:55:39 <ezakimak> I was shown: ,l<tab><ret>clsql<ret> 18:55:48 <ezakimak> which seems to work 18:56:03 <stassats> you don't need <tab> 18:56:05 <ezakimak> then I try (clsql:connect '("localhost" "test" "root" "foo") :database-type :mysql) 18:56:15 <ezakimak> <tab> auto completes 18:56:24 <ezakimak> didn't know you could skip it 18:56:42 -!- LakatosI [557a1e03@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.122.30.3] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:57:03 <ezakimak> that's when I get the error 18:57:36 <ezakimak> the last entry in the backtrace is: 18:57:43 <ezakimak> 0: ((SB-PCL::FAST-METHOD ASDF:PERFORM (ASDF:COMPILE-OP CLSQL-MYSQL-SYSTEM::CLSQL-MYSQL-SOURCE-FILE)) ..) 18:57:46 <stassats> ezakimak: <ret> auto-completes too 18:57:54 <ezakimak> ok. good to know 18:58:10 <stassats> and when there's only one candidate, it accepts it 18:58:29 stis [~stis@host-90-239-54-52.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:36 <ezakimak> is "," a shortcut to asdf stuff? 18:58:42 <stassats> no 18:58:50 <stassats> it's a shortcut to shortcuts 18:58:59 <ezakimak> a slime thing? 18:59:04 <stassats> yes 18:59:04 <ezakimak> or part of repl? 18:59:06 <ezakimak> ok 18:59:15 <stassats> part of the slime repl 18:59:22 <ezakimak> makes sense 18:59:31 <ezakimak> (so much about the tools yet to learn) 19:00:20 <ezakimak> well, I'm kinda stuck trying to talk to the db 19:00:45 <ezakimak> my lisp troubleshooting skills are weak, master. :) 19:00:56 -!- Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:02:09 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.138.8] has joined #lisp 19:03:17 <ezakimak> ok, after attempting connect, and "accept assuming complitation succeeded" twice, mysql reports that there is a connection 19:03:37 <ezakimak> but, I get an error from lisp that mysql-get-client-info is an undefined function 19:03:50 <Landr> are you in the right package? 19:03:59 <ezakimak> i'm in cl-user 19:04:11 <homie> it mybe not exported 19:04:28 <Xach> ezakimak: When you chose the "Accept assuming it succeeded" you didn't really make useful progress. 19:04:34 <homie> (in-package :clsql) 19:05:55 <ezakimak> well, it got a connection--a socket is open 19:06:10 <ezakimak> but obviously something is still wrong 19:06:43 <homie> restart your lisp repl 19:06:48 <ezakimak> is there a way to "unload" it and try again? or do I have to restart it all 19:06:57 <homie> restart is better 19:07:05 <ezakimak> can I do that from slime? so far I've been killing slime and then killing the sbcl process 19:07:20 <homie> there is no unload only uninterning but that's painfull for so many smybols 19:07:56 <homie> and it's error prone, since you need to know what to unintern exactly.... 19:08:35 <ezakimak> ok, so restarted, back to zero 19:08:51 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:57 <homie> ok then load it via asdf 19:09:04 <homie> and then try the connection 19:09:21 <homie> if something goes wrong in the load step, report it.... 19:10:03 <ezakimak> so: (clsql:connect '("localhost" "test" "root "foo") :database-type :mysql) results in: 19:10:23 <ezakimak> erred while invoking #<COMPILE-OP (:VERBOSE NIL) {10031CDDB1}> 19:10:23 <ezakimak> on 19:10:23 <ezakimak> #<CLSQL-MYSQL-SOURCE-FILE "clsql-mysql" "db-mysql" "clsql_mysql"> 19:10:23 <ezakimak> [Condition of type ASDF:OPERATION-ERROR] 19:10:30 <ezakimak> bactrace ends in: 19:10:37 <ezakimak> 0: ((SB-PCL::FAST-METHOD ASDF:PERFORM (ASDF:COMPILE-OP CLSQL-MYSQL-SYSTEM::CLSQL-MYSQL-SOURCE-FILE)) ..) 19:10:51 <homie> ok, how did you get clsql ? 19:11:00 <ezakimak> I loaded it 19:11:01 <homie> via quicklisp ? 19:11:04 <ezakimak> oh 19:11:06 <ezakimak> portage 19:11:15 <ezakimak> via the lisp overlay 19:11:16 <homie> aha, ok, it seems to be not complete or so 19:11:25 <homie> i assume so 19:11:38 <ezakimak> sbcl 1.0.47, uffi 2.0.0, clsql 5.3.2 19:11:38 <homie> shouldn't happen for a stable version 19:11:47 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:11:56 <homie> there are some issues with uffi and cffi sometimes too 19:12:03 carlocci [~nes@93.37.207.0] has joined #lisp 19:12:10 <ezakimak> I don't think I have cffi 19:12:23 <ezakimak> yeah, I don't have cffi installed 19:12:26 <ezakimak> do I need that? 19:12:30 <homie> well, there's a compatibility package, and you should really have cffi too i think 19:12:42 <Harag> quicklisp 19:12:50 <homie> i think uffi uses somethings from cffi or so.... 19:13:00 <ezakimak> cffi 0.10.6-r1 is the version available, is that new enough? 19:13:08 <Xach> homie: No. 19:13:17 <homie> ok Xach... 19:13:36 <ezakimak> cffi wants alexandria also 19:13:38 -!- joker` [~joker@dslb-188-105-097-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:13:38 <homie> Xach is uffi continued ? 19:13:39 <Xach> There's a cffi project that's meant to be a compatibility layer for uffi, but it does not work fully. 19:13:42 <Xach> homie: Yes. 19:13:55 <homie> so it's not a wrapper lib only ? 19:14:02 <Xach> homie: No. 19:14:03 <ezakimak> so I don't need cffi? 19:14:09 <homie> ah ok 19:15:17 <homie> seems you have dependency issues only then, get it via quicklisp, it's better 19:16:03 TrasTorno [~ircap@46.27.147.232] has joined #lisp 19:18:40 <ezakimak> clsql does work with mysql 5.1.x, right? 19:19:18 <ezakimak> the mysql c lib has been stable for a long time, I shouldn't think that would break anything 19:20:05 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:20:41 <ezakimak> where does it place compiled files? 19:21:11 <Xach> Where does what place compiled files? 19:21:37 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:23 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0011.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 19:23:02 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:23:22 <ezakimak> i found ~/.fasls, and there's lots of mysql fasl files in there 19:25:40 markskilbeck [~mark@host81-132-123-203.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:40 -!- markskilbeck [~mark@host81-132-123-203.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:25:40 markskilbeck [~mark@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 19:30:55 <TrasTorno> algun español? 19:31:00 <Xach> Nej 19:31:04 <ezakimak> un poco 19:31:07 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-4356673a.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:31:36 <Xach> vi gir alt for norge 19:32:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-241.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:33:38 -!- TristamWrk [~tristam@dark-sage-71.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:34:43 -!- Calyce [~julie@235.115-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:42 <Posterdati> hi 19:38:40 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:43 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.209.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:41:17 <lisppaste> pp206 pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/122138 19:41:23 <pp206> hi 19:41:37 cmm [~cmm@109.65.209.45] has joined #lisp 19:41:53 -!- akimbo [~oy@66.187.233.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:42:25 <pp206> in reference to the pastie above, could someone explain why the 2nd case fails? 19:43:00 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:43:29 Calyce [~julie@235.115-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 19:43:36 <ezakimak> it lacks the full path? 19:44:20 TristamWrk [~tristam@midnight-blue-30.dynamic.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 19:44:21 -!- Calyce [~julie@235.115-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:25 <stassats> because sdl doesn't load according to *d-p-d*, but according to the current directory of the process? 19:44:47 <stassats> pp206: what does ,pwd say? 19:45:01 eptalon [~robert@wikipedia/Eptalon] has joined #lisp 19:45:10 <eptalon> hello all 19:45:16 <pp206> stassats: /Users/pp/Pictures 19:45:49 phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 19:46:07 <stassats> and what error message do you actually get? 19:46:27 <pp206> it's really strange. I think it works sometimes too, but I could be just confused 19:47:13 <pp206> i am getting the "there is no applicable method for the generic function" msg, where the pathname is NIL 19:47:28 -!- TristamWrk [~tristam@midnight-blue-30.dynamic.rpi.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:36 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:02 nha [~prefect@183-32.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:50:04 TristamWrk [~tristam@midnight-blue-30.dynamic.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 19:50:49 <ezakimak> attempting to download: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-json/cl-json_0.4.0.tar.gz results in 403 forbidden 19:51:07 <pjb> ezakimak: yes, json is forbidden. Use Sexps instead. 19:51:09 <pp206> it seems to be a pb with lispbuilder-sdl, as a (probe-file <fullpath>) and a (probe-file <relative path>) both work 19:51:29 <ezakimak> pjb, ? 19:51:33 <pjb> :-) 19:51:51 <pp206> the lispbuilder-sdl mailing list links is dead, do people know where to reach them? 19:51:51 <Harag> lol 19:52:05 -!- TristamWrk [~tristam@midnight-blue-30.dynamic.rpi.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:52:12 <pjb> ezakimak: look, if one can implement a x86 emulator in JavaScript, you must be able to write a Sexp reader/writer in JavaScript too, and use sexps to communicate between components! 19:52:28 <ezakimak> but if json is already implemented, then I don't have to. 19:52:57 <pjb> There may be other considerations to take into account... 19:53:01 <ezakimak> such as? 19:53:09 <pjb> Motivate people to use lisp. 19:53:33 <ezakimak> well, as it's going I'm leaning towards going back to python since I can't get my db connection working 19:53:41 <_3b> ezakimak: tell #tech.coop about the 403, and for temporary fix put elephant. at the beginning of the host name 19:54:08 <stassats> or just use quicklisp? 19:54:18 <Harag> ezakimak: use postgresql and postmodern instead 19:54:31 <Harag> or as stassats says use quiclisp 19:54:32 <ezakimak> i don't want to learn postgres atm 19:54:45 <_3b> yeah, that sounds like a good idea too (probably still tell the admins about the 403 though) 19:54:52 <Harag> then use quicklisp 19:54:56 <ezakimak> elephant subdomain worked 19:55:15 <eptalon> quicklisp? 19:55:24 m_p_g [~m_p_g@dslb-094-223-213-192.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:31 <tempire> http://www.quicklisp.org/ 19:55:35 <sykopomp> ezakimak: if you keep trying to use elephant, you'll end up with Python-lang anyway. :) 19:55:41 <ezakimak> well, I'm trying not to have to fight too many things at once--I'm just getting started 19:56:02 <ezakimak> so for now I've been trying to stick with my distros package manager for stuff 19:56:02 <tempire> quicklisp is the packaging system you expect when coming from other languages 19:56:13 <ehu> what's in the wrong place? 19:56:22 <ehu> on common-lisp.net? 19:56:43 <tempire> ezakimak: it's like easy_install for python 19:56:44 <ezakimak> ok. got cl-json loaded. 19:56:53 <Harag> ezakimak: the distro's package manager is always going to be a disaster 19:57:02 <_3b> ehu: 403 on project/cl-json/cl-json_0.4.0.tar.gz (or something like that, scroll up a bit) 19:57:02 <ezakimak> right. question is which is worse? 19:57:13 <eptalon> I will porbably get fried if I tell people I learnt that other lisp version, by sussman et al. 19:57:20 <eptalon> "wizard book" 19:57:31 <pjb> sicp is highly regarded. 19:57:33 <ezakimak> isn't any lisp better than no lisp? 19:57:55 <Harag> not if it drives u nutty 19:57:58 <sykopomp> eptalon: you'll probably be pointed to #scheme, since this is a common lisp channel. :) 19:58:13 <eptalon> sykopomp: it says lisp... 19:58:15 *Guthur* heats up a eptalon size frying pan 19:58:16 <ehu> _3b: thanks. 19:58:16 <pjb> Unless you want to write programs in Common Lisp. 19:58:27 <sykopomp> eptalon: /topic 19:58:47 <eptalon> sykopomp: oh. sorry. 19:58:52 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.40.161] has joined #lisp 19:58:52 *ezakimak* needs to figure out how to motive #gentoo-lisp 19:59:03 *ezakimak* wonders where to send the beers 19:59:14 <Guthur> does gentoo have it's own lisp 19:59:24 <ezakimak> it's the lisp overlay maintainers 19:59:28 <pjb> Guthur: lisp repository. 19:59:33 <pjb> gentoo-lisp is like quicklisp. 19:59:43 <ezakimak> well, no 19:59:51 <ezakimak> kind of but not really 19:59:53 *eptalon* hasn't done any serious lisp in ages though. 20:00:06 <ezakimak> they're working on updating to asdf v2 20:00:25 <ezakimak> maybe I can get them to include an ebuild for quicklisp and ditch the individual packaging 20:01:04 <ezakimak> the gentoo python guys got easy_install to play friendly w/portage after all, I imagine the same can be done w/quicklisp 20:01:29 Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 20:01:47 orivej [~orivej@host-92-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 20:01:48 <pjb> ezakimak: it's futile. 20:01:55 <Guthur> why is gentoo awkward? 20:02:03 <ezakimak> how is it awkward? 20:02:19 <Guthur> well why is it even worried about these things 20:02:25 <pjb> I mean, I might happen to use a lisp system installed by gentoo accidentally, but for specific project, Il will always install myself the dependencies. 20:02:40 <ezakimak> package management is a boon 20:02:43 <Harag> ezakimak: i started out using the packages in ubuntu before quicklisp came along and believe me quicklisp is the way to go ... dont fight it 20:03:14 <ezakimak> well, I've already got stuff installed via portage, so my question now is do I uninstall, then install via quicklisp, or risk havoc? 20:03:34 <eptalon> ezakimak: /part 20:03:37 -!- eptalon [~robert@wikipedia/Eptalon] has left #lisp 20:03:49 <Harag> lool 20:03:54 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:03:56 <ezakimak> ? 20:04:00 <ezakimak> you telling me to go away? 20:04:07 <pjb> He's gone. 20:04:12 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC04DAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:04:28 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 20:04:34 <stassats> perhaps he was going to show you something and was asking you to come along 20:04:39 <pjb> ezakimak: one may shadow the other, You might get system version incompatibilities... 20:04:57 <ezakimak> so far, everything's been working, until now--something's wrong with cl-mysql 20:05:13 <ezakimak> i guess now that something is finally broke it may be time to fix it all? 20:05:39 <ezakimak> would I install sbcl itself via quicklisp? or just packages? 20:05:48 <pjb> Just systems. 20:05:51 <Harag> just packages 20:06:00 <pjb> quicklisp installs systems. 20:06:22 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:06:26 <antifuchs> quicklisp installs code (: 20:06:34 <Harag> lol 20:07:24 <Guthur> quicklisp installs code that installs code 20:07:34 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.40.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:16 <ezakimak> what about asdf? 20:08:31 <Harag> ezakimak: uninstall gentoo stuff ... download sbcl binary and follow quicklisp install from quiclisp.org 20:08:40 <Harag> +k 20:08:42 <tempire> asdf is the package 20:08:47 <tempire> quicklisp is the installer of the package 20:08:57 <ezakimak> so quicklisp will also want to install asdf for me? 20:08:58 <sykopomp> system. 20:09:08 <tempire> ezakimak: yes 20:09:10 <antifuchs> ezakimak: quicklisp comes with asdf pre-packaged 20:09:15 <ezakimak> just trying to figure out what all to uninstall 20:09:22 <ezakimak> i wasn't planning on uninstalling sbcl 20:09:22 <antifuchs> just quicklisp. 20:09:34 <antifuchs> you don't need to do that. but it helps to be on a recent release 20:09:46 <ezakimak> is 1.0.47 recent enough? 20:10:02 <ezakimak> it's only one behind 20:10:03 <antifuchs> that's recent enough (: 20:10:08 <ezakimak> k 20:10:14 <antifuchs> of course, .48 had a few nice fixes and stuff 20:10:19 <ezakimak> I could update that too if necessary 20:10:37 <antifuchs> no need. I've used ql with stuff as old as .42 IIRC 20:10:43 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:10:51 _mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:11:57 <tempire> k 20:12:10 <tempire> erk, wrong window 20:12:17 <Night-Hacks> is there any explanations about usage of colon " : " in lisp, there are lots of meaning by it, a bit confused. 20:12:20 <Harag> antifuchs: if gentoo is like ubuntu it sets up default install locations, paths etc and stuff that end up clashing with quicklisp in my experience... 20:12:32 <antifuchs> ah, that's possible 20:12:49 <antifuchs> not sure about gentoo's sbcl install - fe[nl]ix? (: 20:13:17 <ezakimak> #gentoo-linux has been very quiet lately--haven't got any responses lately 20:13:37 <ezakimak> do I just load quicklisp as my normal user? 20:13:54 <pjb> ezakimak: check the quicklisp site, it explains everything. 20:14:04 <Night-Hacks> somewhere its keyword and other time its hash like argument passing. 20:14:09 <pjb> ezakimak: And it cannot be simplier. 20:14:50 <tempire> Night-Hacks: those "hash like argument[s]" are keywords 20:15:20 <Harag> and ezakimak ignore the "beta" naming its rock solid, just not "feature" complete , Xach is to modist 20:15:50 <tcr> You will have to pay for the real thing. It's a trick. 20:15:55 <Night-Hacks> i read somewhere that they store in plisp in symbol data structure, so what's the relation with keyword package ? 20:15:58 Plazma [~Plazma@freenode/staff/plazma] has joined #lisp 20:16:15 <Night-Hacks> symbol's* 20:16:18 <Harag> lol 20:16:23 <pjb> Night-Hacks: none. 20:16:27 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 20:16:34 <reb> Night-Hacks: Take a look at Practical Common Lisp ... read about symbols, keywords, etc. 20:17:21 <ehu> ok. the cl-json project links to a non-existing directory. 20:17:32 <ehu> instead of serving from their own project space. 20:17:40 <ehu> I'm affraid the project admin will need to address. 20:18:02 *sykopomp* likes jsown or yason for JSON. 20:18:42 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00246a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:27 <ezakimak> booyah. clsql:query works now! 20:19:35 <ezakimak> 3-cheers for quicklisp. 20:19:41 <tempire> hip hip 20:20:00 <Harag> yeaaaaaaaha!!! 20:20:31 <Night-Hacks> pjb: for example in this code => (format t "~a" :title) why writer doesn't says (format t "~a" 'title) ?? 20:21:06 anxt [~user@64.141.19.175] has joined #lisp 20:21:48 <pjb> Night-Hacks: it makes no difference in this case. 20:22:11 <stassats> except for some possible side-effects 20:22:39 <Guthur> MORE SIDE-EFFECTS 20:22:50 <Night-Hacks> pjb: when we say :title it means this symbol is from keyword package, but have we defined that there ? 20:22:57 <ezakimak> once I've done a ql:quickload, will it load it again for me when I restart slime? 20:23:26 <stassats> yes, ql:quickload will load it again 20:23:41 <ezakimak> i mean, do I have to do that every time? 20:24:13 <Harag> yes unless you set up an init script/file for sbcl 20:24:19 <sellout-> ezakimak: Yes, just like loading a library in any other language  but once it's installed, loading is much faster. 20:24:19 <ezakimak> ok 20:24:53 <tempire> it's actually better, because most languages separate the installing & loading 20:25:08 <tempire> quicklisp combines the process, so installation happens on first run 20:25:35 <ezakimak> well, that's a nice side effect. 20:25:54 <Harag> lol @ side effect 20:26:22 <gigamonkey> Night-Hacks: every symbol in the keyword package is magically made to evaluate to itself. 20:26:25 <ezakimak> well, it's certainly user friendly 20:27:56 <Night-Hacks> gigamonkey: ok, so as soon as you use :title it's like you've defined that there in hash like structure and can set a value to it, right ? 20:28:13 -!- alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has quit [Quit: alama] 20:28:15 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:28:47 c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CC581.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:38 <pjb> Night-Hacks: you should read PCL. 20:30:06 <pjb> And if you persist in this line of question, I'll advise you to read LiSP (Lisp in Small Pieces, which explains how lisp can be implemented in nine nice interpreters and compilers). 20:30:07 <Harag> ezakimak: and your next question is going to be how do you get quicklisp to load your own systems/packages ... if you stick to the asdf 2 default all you need is a symbolic link in .local/share/common-lisp/source/ for your project's .asd file 20:30:36 <Night-Hacks> pjb: im reading it right now, but writer have used it in first chapter with no explanations, and i cant pass something without knowing it ! 20:30:56 <Night-Hacks> first chapter's* 20:31:15 <ezakimak> Harag, good to know. 20:31:36 Bike1 [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:39 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:01 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:32:03 <pjb> Night-Hacks: well, gigamonkey said it: keywords are symbols whose value is themselves. 20:32:10 alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has joined #lisp 20:33:27 <Night-Hacks> pjb: yeah i remembered the topic about it from Touretzky's book. 20:36:05 <ezakimak> pjb, that actually makes sense to me now 20:36:16 <ezakimak> guess I am making some good progress 20:36:17 -!- Bike1 [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:36:52 <ezakimak> how do you unintern a keyword? 20:37:23 <pjb> Like any other symbol. 20:37:28 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.141.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:32 <ezakimak> (unintern :mykeyword) ; NIL 20:37:51 <ezakimak> (unintern 'mysymbol) ; T 20:38:55 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-243-26.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:39:05 <ezakimak> well, it's not really important atm 20:40:45 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 20:40:59 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CC581.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:41:40 -!- Night-Hacks [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 20:48:13 enthymeme [~kraken@96.31.242.194] has joined #lisp 20:49:55 Bike [~Glossina@71-38-156-48.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:44 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 20:52:05 -!- alama [~alama@86.93.35.187] has quit [Quit: alama] 20:52:16 <homie> is there anyway to select multiple db's in clsql ? 20:52:40 <ezakimak> you probably need multiple connections, which can be done 20:53:18 <homie> well ok 20:53:21 <ezakimak> i've just been reading the docs, and most functions have an optional :database keyword arg 20:53:24 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:53:37 <ezakimak> where :database really means connection 20:53:38 <homie> can i change the *default-db* stuff on the fly then ? 20:53:50 <homie> if i have multiple db's open ? 20:53:59 <ezakimak> I believe you can set it to anything out of the list of open connections 20:54:34 <homie> hmmm, only the connection spec sucks, when i have to type it everytime.... 20:54:37 <Phoodus> I am an idiot for trying to set generation 0's generation-bytes-consed-between-gc 20:54:47 <Phoodus> can't believe I missed what the documentation said about it 20:55:11 <Phoodus> my GC woes are now thoroughly mitigated by using the proper bytes-consed-between-gcs 20:55:31 <Phoodus> back down to 3% gc time 20:55:32 <homie> well i can use a connection-spec symbol like say (setq my-db (connect '("blah" "blah"....))) 20:55:55 <ezakimak> clsql:connected-databases 20:56:21 <homie> host/db/user, shows it like that 20:56:56 <homie> and why do i have to provide a passwd ? 20:56:59 <ezakimak> I think you can do (setf clsql:*default-database* (nthcdr 3 clsql:connected-databases)) 20:57:07 <ezakimak> homie, that's only if your db requires it for auth 20:57:13 <homie> i can connect to my mysql without a passwd 20:57:15 <homie> ah ok 20:57:22 <ezakimak> does the clsql require that arg? 20:58:50 <homie> wtf, the connection spec does require a passwd nevertheless! 20:59:04 <ezakimak> so, give it an empty string 20:59:18 <ezakimak> it's probably good practice anyways 20:59:33 <ezakimak> and I think mysql server will just ignore it if not necessary 20:59:37 <homie> now it's complaining about using password :NO 20:59:50 <ezakimak> so send it junk 21:00:02 <homie> but i can connect without a passwd to mysql from console 21:00:11 pnq [~nick@ACA20804.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:29 <ezakimak> well, are you connecting via file socket on console and tcp socket via lisp? 21:00:36 <ezakimak> cause they use diff. lines in the password file 21:00:42 <ezakimak> er mysql/user table I should say 21:00:52 <homie> well, i only observe it works on console and in lisp not 21:01:01 no-name- [~no-name@11.228.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 21:01:01 <homie> even with "" or "blah" as password 21:01:07 <ezakimak> try it from the console via "localhost" to force tcpip 21:01:14 <homie> i mean empty or junk passwd does not work 21:01:21 *Harag* thinks using mysql is like trying to use ms access...postgresql....heh 21:01:45 <ezakimak> Harag, not the place for anti-mysql flame baits... 21:01:55 <ezakimak> they all have their warts 21:01:59 <Harag> yeah i know 21:02:08 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-140-216.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:09 <Harag> but still ...:p 21:02:27 <ezakimak> i know postrges has a place in the hearts of lispers because of it's lisp origins 21:02:44 <Harag> and once you get to use postmodern...wow 21:03:01 <ezakimak> i like mysql--i was a mysql dev at one point... 21:03:13 <ezakimak> i'd say i know it fairly well... 21:03:19 <Harag> and i was a ms dev a one point 21:03:30 <Phoodus> I made a lisp program once 21:03:30 <ezakimak> for what product? (and so was I) 21:03:50 <Harag> ediware rocks 21:04:14 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-223.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:04:21 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:04:58 <Harag> ezakimak: just as you resisted quicklisp at the start of tonights descussions you will find your way to postgresql + postmodern eventually 21:05:12 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@145.29.195.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:17 <ezakimak> maybe. I may ditch mysql and go straight to rucksack though =P 21:05:20 <Harag> ease of use... its everything in programming 21:05:26 <Harag> lol 21:05:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-88.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:06:21 <ezakimak> ease of use is important in programming, but ease of admin is also important--and I don't really wanna learn to admin another large process atm 21:06:38 <tempire> rdbms are the devil 21:06:45 <tempire> so 2010 21:06:51 <sykopomp> meh. They're not that bad. 21:06:53 *Phoodus* prefers persistent knowledge bases 21:06:53 <ezakimak> please don't say you're in the nosql camp... 21:06:57 <antifuchs> you mean 2008 (: 21:07:06 <ezakimak> rdms has it's place, just like nosql 21:07:11 <tempire> map-reduce is the future 21:07:17 <tempire> you know, functional and all that 21:07:27 <sykopomp> tempire: that's easy to say until you try to use it. 21:07:41 <tempire> I haven't used it in lisp 21:07:41 <ezakimak> it all comes down to which trade-off in CAP theory you want to make 21:07:48 <sykopomp> relational databases still have quite an edge in many cases. 21:07:51 <tempire> that's why riak is the shizzle 21:08:02 <sykopomp> tempire: I use CouchDB for an application I'm working on. 21:08:05 <tempire> you can pick which part of the CAP you want on an object level 21:08:29 <ezakimak> with riak? 21:08:29 <sykopomp> it's nice, butt I also miss some things from postgres -- although postgres is quite nice for an rdbms. 21:08:31 <Harag> tempire: yeah show how to do group by's and with multiple joins in 10 lines of code and i will join the nosql wagon 21:08:39 pirxs [~pirx@195.225.69.9] has joined #lisp 21:09:04 <sykopomp> Harag: ever read about CouchDB Joins? 21:09:08 <ezakimak> Harag, you wind up writing wrapper libs to emulate sql-like functionality with many nosql implementations 21:09:22 <ezakimak> some implementations make that easier to do than others 21:09:23 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-237.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:09:33 <tempire> if you're emulating sql-like functionality, you're doing it wrong 21:09:41 <tempire> sykopomp is right, rdbms still have their place 21:09:42 <ezakimak> depends on what you're doing 21:09:49 <Harag> sykopomp: no last time (12 months ago) google had nothing usefull 21:09:54 <ezakimak> resin has some great uses 21:10:02 <sykopomp> Harag: You can do joins with CouchDB. 21:10:11 <sykopomp> I use them. They're not bad. :) 21:10:18 <tempire> but when you're designing for a system that has infinite horizontal scalability, rdbms doesn't work 21:10:22 <sykopomp> and I get to write all my views/queries/etc in Common Lisp. 21:10:42 <p_l|backup> tempire: map/reduce != database 21:10:52 <Harag> well postmodern gives me the same sykopomp 21:11:11 <p_l|backup> RDBMS are fine for tasks that can be expressed in relational way, though many popular ORM solutions butcher it horribly 21:11:14 <sykopomp> Harag: No it doesn't. It gives you s-sql, which is nowhere near as nice as actual CL. 21:11:43 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:11:44 <p_l|backup> perec gives a nice SQL compiler that can mix'n'match CL and SQL, though 21:12:43 <Harag> sykopomp: and does couch-db do group by's? 21:13:11 <p_l|backup> Harag: I believe it can through a view server 21:13:22 <sykopomp> Harag: yes. 21:13:29 <sykopomp> p_l|backup: you can do it at query time. 21:13:40 <Harag> seriously i have been trying to get away from rdbms but when it comes to reporting the nosql stuff looked like hack every time 21:13:49 <ezakimak> eventually consistent systems bug the hell out of me, I much prefer rdbms 21:14:16 <tempire> Harag: it's true, if you're doing reporting by pulling information after the fact, rdbms is the way to go 21:14:44 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:14:44 <tempire> but if you're doing reporting as outputs of system functions, then it doesn't matter 21:15:20 <Harag> i have issues with rdbms not because i feel it is does not represent the data relations "naturally" in a lot of cases but i always hit the reporting snag 21:15:40 <Harag> -not 21:15:43 <ezakimak> how can you get snagged on reporting from rdbms? they're great at it 21:15:47 <sykopomp> lack of atomicity is what gets me :( 21:15:59 <sykopomp> general-purpose atomicity, that is. 21:16:00 <ezakimak> sykopomp, some nosqls have good atomicity 21:16:00 -!- sbryant_work [~user@ghanima.slavasaur.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:16:01 tmh [6c491df1@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 21:16:05 <ezakimak> resin for one 21:16:21 <ezakimak> but, I bet most don't have transaction support 21:16:31 <tmh> Greetings lispers. 21:16:37 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.138.8] has left #lisp 21:17:00 <sykopomp> nope :\ 21:17:12 <sykopomp> ezakimak: you can't even have uniqueness constraints, in Couch. 21:17:20 <Harag> transactions are a falicy 21:17:34 <sykopomp> but maybe the problem is that I'm thinking of putting too much logic into a database. :) 21:17:50 <sykopomp> maybe that's the real harm rdbmses have done. 21:18:06 <Harag> sykopomp: i would love to see a lisp associative db 21:18:08 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.40.161] has joined #lisp 21:18:34 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-239-54-52.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:55 anxt` [~user@64.141.19.82] has joined #lisp 21:19:00 <tmh> So, I was just bitten by a LET* form where I bound a variable twice by an accident of naming. It took me a little bit to identify the error. Would it be incompatible with the hyperspec for an implementation to warn you of 2 variable bindings in a LET* form? 21:19:08 <gigamonkey> What say you, is it fair to say Clojure is the first new Lisp to see any widespread adoption since Scheme and Common Lisp? 21:19:18 <Harag> sykopomp: if you ever had to support logic in rdbms then you will never do it agiain 21:19:26 <gigamonkey> tmh: I'm pretty sure an implementation can warn you about whatever it wants. 21:19:44 <pjb> gigamonkey: it's not logical. 21:19:57 <tempire> you could always use voltdb and get the worst of both worlds 21:19:59 <gigamonkey> pjb: what's not logical?+ 21:20:01 <dlowe> gigamonkey: Dylan saw pretty wide adoption 21:20:07 <gigamonkey> dlowe: yeah, I thought about that. 21:20:08 <pjb> Even newlisp when it appeared, might have been first new Lisp to see any widespread adoption since Scheme and Common Lisp. 21:20:10 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 21:20:25 <ezakimak> sykopomp, I've never put my logic into rdbms--that prevents it from scaling well 21:20:29 -!- anxt [~user@64.141.19.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:20:32 <gigamonkey> Not if newlisp never had widespread adoption. 21:20:43 <tmh> gigamonkey: Then maybe my implementation can with the right DECLARE statement. Should look into that. For expediency sake, I have some nasty LET* forms that I don't care to factor at the moment. 21:20:52 gz_ [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:53 <pjb> gigamonkey: it was widespread, compared to whaver other lisp appeared between CL and newlisp. 21:21:29 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:21:38 <gigamonkey> pjb: really? 21:21:41 <pjb> gigamonkey: you'd need some numbers. I don't think Clojure usage is even 10% of Common Lisp usage. 21:21:46 <nixfreak_> don't you think because its new and shiny people see it more 21:22:09 <ezakimak> maybe sbcl is just better entrenched because of it's age? 21:22:10 <pjb> nixfreak_: the word is "adoption". 21:22:18 anxt`` [~user@64.141.19.175] has joined #lisp 21:22:30 <tmh> What about islisp, eulisp, and friends. Those were crazy popular. :-) 21:22:34 <gigamonkey> Here's a number. Four books about clojure with a fifth on the way. How many newlisp books were published? 21:22:55 <pjb> eulisp is older than CL, and islisp was certainly more widespread, before newlisp. 21:23:08 <nixfreak_> I have a hell of a time trying to compile newlisp on my system 21:23:16 <nixfreak_> otherwise I would use it 21:23:16 <gigamonkey> Maybe "adoption" isn't exactly right. "mindshare" is probably appropriately vague. 21:23:19 <pjb> gigamonkey: that's an indirect number. 21:23:31 <pjb> gigamonkey: Ah, if you want to write to say nothing... 21:23:36 <Harag> ezakimak: sbcl is relatively young in my opinion 21:23:41 -!- anxt` [~user@64.141.19.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:23:55 <tmh> What about LUSH? Totally popular. 21:23:55 <gigamonkey> pjb: okay, so are you actually maintaining that anybody cared about newlisp? 21:24:02 <pjb> No. 21:24:07 <Harag> lol 21:24:20 <pjb> What I'm saying is that we're starting from so low levels, anything looks like a nuclear explosion. 21:24:20 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-49-85.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 21:24:28 <tempire> lulz 21:24:31 <tempire> pjb++ 21:24:33 <nixfreak_> otherwise I would use it 'baked in' 21:25:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.92.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:25:35 <gigamonkey> pjb: well, it seems to me that Clojure is doing reasonably well as a new language, not just compared to other Lisps. 21:25:37 <tmh> Lush is recommended by 15 users. 21:25:56 <tmh> It was even updated on 2011-03-20. 21:26:05 <pjb> I know only one person having adopted it. We'd need more data points... 21:26:26 <nixfreak_> also remember it runs on jvm which alot of people are writing on 21:26:32 -!- m_p_g [~m_p_g@dslb-094-223-213-192.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:26:44 <tempire> that's the key to clojure's popularity right there 21:26:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-211-241.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:50 <tempire> and also why I chose common lisp instead 21:26:56 <pjb> There are more programmers targetting x86 than JVM. 21:27:00 <Harag> closure feels like mono to me ....good intetions but a bad idea 21:27:12 <nixfreak_> jvm is scary 21:28:00 <nixfreak_> also look how to docs are setup with clojure , scala and java 21:28:07 <nixfreak_> there awesome 21:28:32 <nixfreak_> if cl had docs like that and books it would probably get more attention 21:28:52 <tmh> Um, I think PCL is a damn fine book and the hyperspec is very nice. 21:28:57 <ehu> nixfreak: you mean the freely available "Practical common lisp" book? 21:29:17 <pjb> As are all the other CL books (apart perhaps one). 21:29:18 <Harag> lol 21:29:44 <nixfreak_> practical and land of of lisp are nice 21:30:04 <tmh> I have 5 CL books/references sitting on my shelf and all are very well written and insightful. 21:30:29 Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 21:30:31 -!- anxt`` [~user@64.141.19.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:33 <nixfreak_> and this irc is great but it would be nice to get all info from one source 21:30:44 <nixfreak_> but that's my opinon 21:30:48 <pjb> gigamonkey: you set a bad example, since you got rich writing lisp books, now people try to do the same writing clojure books. 21:31:15 -!- angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:31:34 <tmh> nixfreak_: It's called the hyperspec, all the info is there. Anything else you need is implementation dependent, and most implementations have decent documentation. 21:31:52 <nixfreak_> I agree hyperspec is very nice with slime 21:32:13 <ezakimak> how do you access hyperspec via slime? right now I just use a browser to my local disc copy 21:32:35 <ezakimak> or is that what (describe pulls up? 21:32:37 <nixfreak_> there is a site that I learned how 21:32:43 <nixfreak_> it pulls from lispworks 21:32:49 <ezakimak> well, google finds that 21:32:57 <Harag> tmh: just working through the reader in the hypespec (properly) could take you a life time 21:33:14 <gigamonkey> pjb: oh yeah, I'm rolling in dough from PCL. 21:33:35 <tmh> ezakimak: There are a couple ways. You can actually download a texinfo version and access it in emacs. I think you can configure slime to handle that and/or references to the HTML version at LispWorks. 21:33:38 <ezakimak> yeah, not the same volume as strsoustrup I imagine 21:33:59 <pjb> gigamonkey: Hey don't look at me, I bought Coders', I can see it from my desk. 21:34:00 <Harag> gigamonkey: i still start all my junior devs on pcl ... do a nother one...we love it 21:34:00 <ezakimak> well, browser works well enough for now 21:34:01 <nixfreak_> yea thats how I access it 21:34:02 <Krystof> gigamonkey: you should set up a lisp startup! 21:34:30 <nixfreak_> also more not saying all most of the libs are hard to follow 21:34:31 <gigamonkey> How do you make a small fortune with Lisp? 21:34:33 <gigamonkey> Start with a large fortune! 21:34:35 <nixfreak_> you have to look at the source 21:34:35 <Krystof> "how do you become a millionnaire by making wine?"... 21:34:37 <Krystof> ninjad 21:34:44 <tmh> gigamonkey: I think you should do lisp motivational speaking. Motivational speaking is where the cash is at. 21:34:56 <Harag> lol 21:34:57 <Krystof> gigamonkey: of course, it works out fine if it's someone else's large fortune :-) 21:35:45 <Harag> gigamonkey: well you can make a small fortune in lisp...find a niche market and work it...lisp's time to market will always win 21:35:46 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:51 <Harag> then sell it to some one 21:36:00 <tmh> Step 1: Get too big to fail. Step 2: Fail. Step 3: Get bailed out. Step 4. Eject with your golden parachute. 21:36:22 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@h153n4c1o838.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: add^_] 21:36:36 <nixfreak_> example friend of mine just started lisp but started with clojure first didn't even know about clozure cl or sbcl 21:36:44 <nixfreak_> just saw lisp on jvm 21:37:23 <nixfreak_> I thought parrot has a lisp implementation too 21:37:39 <Harag> ezakimak: if you are using emacs and slime just go to the slime menu for docs 21:38:28 <ezakimak> Harag, oh, that's snazzy. thanks. 21:39:25 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0011.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:39:45 <ezakimak> Harag, how would I add "-no-remote" arg to it's call to firefox? 21:40:20 <Harag> dont have the foggy'ist ezakimak 21:40:28 <ezakimak> ok 21:41:19 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:28 <Harag> after more than 2 years i still call my self a lisp newbie...and emacs and slime came with lisp for me 21:42:02 <ezakimak> i've used emacs for a decade now, and still know very little about it. tip of the iceberg 21:42:37 <ezakimak> but I can't give up C-r and C-s searches, and the rectangle features... 21:42:37 <nixfreak_> ed the connection] 21:42:38 <nixfreak_> 10:43 < Harag> after more than 2 years i still call my self a lisp newbie...and 21:42:38 <nixfreak_> emacs and slime came with lisp for me 21:42:38 <nixfreak_> 10:44 < ezakimak> i've used emacs for a decade now, and still know very little 21:42:41 <Guthur> slime is actually one of the coolest IDEs I've ever used 21:42:59 <ezakimak> emacs even has an OO object browser for C++ that I could never get into 21:43:07 <nixfreak_> http://bc.tech.coop/blog/081209.html 21:43:17 <nixfreak_> great page on slime + emacs 21:43:32 <ezakimak> thanks 21:43:37 <nixfreak_> np 21:43:52 <Harag> if i have to be very honest i would not like lisp to become main stream ... at the moment lisp gives me advantanges in the market I earn my living in that will take the rest of the market eons to catch onto and that is ok with me 21:44:18 <nixfreak_> survivial of the fittest 21:44:21 <ezakimak> Harag, that's precisely why I'm trying to learn lisp 21:44:36 <ezakimak> I'm hoping that once I get it down, I can produce products much quicker 21:45:16 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:45:30 <Harag> ezakimak: you will produce products muck quicker even before you have lisp "down" 21:45:38 <ezakimak> I mean the basics 21:45:45 <Harag> yeah i know 21:45:47 <ezakimak> I haven't even made it through my first book yet 21:45:50 <Harag> but still 21:46:08 <ezakimak> I could probably hammer out something right now, but it would not be very lisp-like yet 21:46:12 <Harag> neccesity is the best teacher 21:46:14 -!- nha [~prefect@183-32.104-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:46:33 <ezakimak> just the fact that I can now talk to mysql has me itching to jump ahead 21:46:36 <Harag> ezakimak: dont wait to get it down 21:47:19 <Harag> its like writing a program in a new domain for the first time...every time you re-write it you get to be better at it 21:47:26 <nixfreak_> I want to be able to create web sites using lisp using parenscript 21:47:31 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.40.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:47:34 antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:35 <nixfreak_> and webgl 21:47:50 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:48:50 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:48:58 <ezakimak> what about cl-who? 21:49:11 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:18 <Harag> nixfreak_: just what hunchentoot gives me already puts me way ahead of my asp.net friends... 21:49:24 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 21:49:29 <gigamonkey> pjb: here's a number ~200 people attended the first Clojure confirence last year. 21:49:53 <ezakimak> Harag, hunchentoot is probably my next step 21:50:08 <ezakimak> although I wish there were a way to talk to mysql asynchronously 21:50:16 <tmh> What prompted this round of cl self-loathing? 21:50:30 <Harag> ezakimak: well hunchentoot + postmodern is what puts bread++ on my table 21:50:35 <Harag> you cant go wrong 21:51:19 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@162.163.9.46.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:51:26 <wccoder> Harag: do you work for a company whose focus is development in cl, or are you a freelancer? (just curious) 21:51:30 <Harag> ezakimak: all you need now is a niche market ;) 21:51:43 <ezakimak> Harag, yeah, that's the kicker--finding those 21:51:54 <ezakimak> how many do you have, and what are their sizes? 21:51:56 <Harag> wccoder: started my own company doing SaaS only 21:52:09 <ezakimak> I have 3 potential niche markets in mind 21:52:51 <Harag> wccoder: (its my third attempt at my own company...the others where based on ms tech...and you know where that leads you) 21:53:07 billitch [~billitch@78.251.151.115] has joined #lisp 21:53:38 <wccoder> Harag: good on you! at this point i'm still too used to my old ways to completely move. it's like the decision to get up and light the fire in a freezing room, while you're still warm and toasty under a blanket. 21:53:52 <wccoder> no idea why that analogy popped into my head 21:54:49 <Harag> wccoder: 2 years ago i was a freelancer and now i have 4 devs working for me in lisp...ok i picked a good niche market to get started...still lisp is my edge 21:55:12 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 21:55:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-237.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:55:47 -!- antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:56:14 <pjb> Ok, 200 people at a clojure conference sounds impressive. 21:56:17 <wccoder> Harag: i'm seriously smiling. i've got a project i'm working on (new startup idea) and am doing it using my usual tools, but i keep getting excited about doing it in cl. 21:56:52 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-18-18.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:57:08 <gigamonkey> tmh: in case that was directed at me, I'm not loathing CL. I just happen to be writing the intro for an interview with Rich Hickey that's going to show up soon on Code Quarterly. 21:57:25 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-18-18.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 21:57:34 <wccoder> i need to push past the fear, because i think cl would be a good candidate as i'm starting from scratch 21:57:58 <wccoder> so maybe i'll go scream into a pillow for a bit and then open SLIME 21:58:20 <tmh> gigamonkey: It was directed to whomever, thanks for the response. I just figured it was another round of the "what's wrong with cl" conversation. 21:58:34 <tmh> gigamonkey: Thought maybe some news item had prompted it. 21:58:52 <gigamonkey> Not on my account. 21:59:16 <pjb> Ask him why he didn't apply his popularising skills to lisp instead of inventing yet another language? 21:59:52 <Harag> wccoder: you have nothing to loose 21:59:56 <gigamonkey> pjb: the interview is in the can (and wasn't done by me). 22:00:12 <pjb> ok :-) 22:01:03 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:02:53 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03:12 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:39 <Harag> pjb: i know dont know him but way back then when he tried to do lisp in .net before he came up with closure i interacted (some emails) with him a bit because i was a .net dev interested in lisp as well ... from what i understand it was the desire to use lisp everywhere and the lisp community is not always friendly to new/different ideas since lisp is all powerfull already .... 22:05:28 <pjb> That's silly. We welcome multiple implementations, and extensions to the language (eg. threads). 22:05:44 <pjb> There are two CL implementations targetting the JVM. 22:06:16 <gigamonkey> pjb: but if you look at Clojure he wanted to explore areas that couldn't be done within CL. 22:06:25 <pjb> I don't agree. 22:06:26 <gigamonkey> I.e. he wanted a new language. 22:06:31 <Harag> pjb: life is about perseptions silly or not 22:06:47 <pjb> And even if it couldn't be a superset of CL, it could have had an interesection bigger than the one between r5rs and CL. 22:07:15 <pjb> What I reproach to Clojure, is that for things that are no different than what's available in CL, they don't use the same syntax as CL. 22:08:07 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:08:25 stepnem_ [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:08:49 <Harag> the syntax i agree on with you, it should have been the same even in his first attempt 22:08:55 tessier_ [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] 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22:19:34 prip [~foo@host72-9-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:19:34 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:34 aoh [~aki@85.23.168.115] has joined #lisp 22:19:34 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-nxnkpeuhnlctlwjl] has joined #lisp 22:19:34 qebab [~robb@jaguar.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 22:22:09 -!- herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:23:33 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc12-cdif12-2-0-cust276.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:24:11 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e179012039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:24:20 wetnosed [~kai@e179012039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:25:28 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A38A8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:36 <beach> Good morning everyone! 22:26:24 <Phoodus> hello 22:26:26 _6502_ [5e24fd14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.253.20] has joined #lisp 22:27:09 <_6502_> is lisp a functional language? 22:27:19 <pjb> fsvo functional, yes. 22:27:24 <p_l|backup> beach: morning 22:27:37 <p_l|backup> _6502_: it doesn't go out of its way to discourage FP 22:27:38 <beach> _6502_: Define "functional language" and we will tell you. 22:27:39 <Phoodus> most common lisps has enough functionality in it to support functional programming quite well 22:28:02 <Phoodus> of course, it does non-functional programming too 22:28:26 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:28:43 <beach> _6502_: Some people define "functional" as "works pretty well", in which case CL is definitely a functional language. 22:29:40 <beach> _6502_: Others define "functional" to be the same as "purely functional" which means "doesn't allow any side effects", in which case CL is not a functional language. 22:29:42 <_6502_> I think that modern meaning of functional is "purely function, or almost that" 22:30:00 <beach> _6502_: Then CL is definitely not a functional language. 22:30:10 <_6502_> and a destructive sort like the one in CL is hard to say it's almost purely functional 22:30:47 <_6502_> or setf, nreverse, nconc 22:30:49 <pjb> _6502_: yes, but you can make easily a functional sort in CL: (defun functionals-sort (seq) (sort (copy-seq seq))) 22:31:06 <pjb> and you can easily avoid them, and even sort of enforce the avoidance: 22:31:07 <p_l|backup> _6502_: lisp's getting mixed with functional is related to a fact that it supported it back when subroutines were new 22:31:12 <Phoodus> CL is definitely not a pure functional language 22:31:19 <p_l|backup> well, subroutines on stack 22:31:27 <pjb> (defun :functional-cl (:use :cl) (:export ... everything but sort nreverse nconc setf)) 22:31:41 <Phoodus> defpackage? 22:32:07 <_6502_> p_l: this was my idea... surely it's closer to haskell than to FORTRAN IV 22:32:20 <pjb> oops, right defpackage. 22:32:27 <Phoodus> _6502_: can't it be close to both? 22:33:53 <gigamonkey> _6502_: you haven't seen FORMAT have you. ;-) Straight outta FORTRAN. 22:33:54 <_6502_> but when I said that (pointing to beginning of charapter 5 of Let Over Lambda) i got in reply an excerpt from On Lisp where lisp is described as functional 22:34:18 <gigamonkey> Paul Graham is not a reliable narrator. 22:34:26 <p_l|backup> _6502_: down to being Haskell's original intermediate language 22:34:48 <Phoodus> you can do functional programming in lisp without having to create special crap to fake it. Therefore, some people call it a functional language 22:34:53 <pjb> _6502_: you can write functional programs in Common Lisp. 22:35:03 <pjb> It's up to you, the language doesn't force you 22:35:04 <beach> _6502_: It is futile to try to obtain a yes or no answer to a question when the terminology is not widely agreed upon. You just have to accept that. 22:35:06 <Phoodus> however, it's not ONLY a functional language; it has a rich functional subset 22:35:38 <gigamonkey> _6502_: It is, however, easy to obtain a yes *and* no answer. 22:35:45 <_6502_> you can doesn't mean you do... there are no functional data structures in lisp... but you got imperative ones like vector, structs, hash tables 22:36:02 <gigamonkey> cons cells are kind of the original functional data structure. 22:36:10 <_6502_> it even has mutable strings (something that nowdays even most imperative thinks is bad) 22:36:10 <gigamonkey> Just ignore RPLACA and RPLACD 22:36:13 <pjb> If you don't use rplaca and rplacd, then cons is functional. 22:36:24 <pjb> (defpackage :functional-cl (:use :cl) (:export ... everything but sort nreverse nconc setf rplaca rplacd)) 22:37:11 <pjb> _6502_: if you avoid setf replace and perhaps some other functions, then strings cannot be mutated. 22:37:14 <pjb> (defpackage :functional-cl (:use :cl) (:export ... everything but sort nreverse nconc setf rplaca rplacd replace)) 22:37:37 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.223.246] has joined #lisp 22:37:40 <pjb> map-into would have to be rejected too. 22:37:42 <_6502_> pbj: (defpackage :functional-cl) 22:37:51 <pjb> No this is implementation dependant. 22:38:01 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-132-180.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:23 <gigamonkey> _6502_: it is true that Common Lisp does not include, as part of the language standard a rich set of functional data structures the way, say, Clojure or Haskell, do. 22:38:46 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-140-216.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:38:47 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 22:39:10 <_6502_> is lisp "more functional" than, say, python ? if yes why ? 22:39:26 <pjb> We already mentionned that the question was meaningless. 22:39:29 <pjb> What's your problem? 22:39:44 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:02 <_6502_> that i found PG advocating that... 22:40:32 <pjb> Well, you need to know CL well to understand what PG means. 22:40:44 <gigamonkey> I'd give Lisp a slight edge because of cons cells. And a better lambda. 22:41:09 <Phoodus> a slight edge in being "more functional"? 22:41:13 <joker`> the functional paradigm means that functions are first class citiziens in a language, so they can be passed to and returned from a function 22:41:19 <gigamonkey> Phoodus: yeah. 22:41:35 <joker`> so python and lisp are equal in this sense 22:41:43 <Phoodus> joker`: or it could mean referential transparency, or lack of side-effects 22:41:43 <beach> _6502_: Study some science. Then you will find out that everyone is free to define terminology and then draw conclusions from it. But the conclusions are meaningless without the defined terminology. Many people don't understand that and try to argue without defining what is argued about (e.g. politicians). Here in #lisp, we should know better. 22:42:28 <joker`> i think that's a misunderstanding to think that functional means no side-effects 22:42:31 <Phoodus> in fact, rarely have I heard "functional" to mean first class functions 22:42:52 <beach> joker`: Misunderstanding? Why? 22:42:56 <Phoodus> those 2 definitions certainly make sense in comparison to math's use of the word "function" 22:43:09 <joker`> all is based on side-effects 22:43:11 <Phoodus> and "functional" meaning "having similarities to math functions" 22:43:16 <beach> joker`: Anyone is free to define it that way. 22:43:18 <joker`> even in haskell but you don't get to see it 22:43:35 <Phoodus> time passes, the universe monad, etc etc yes 22:44:10 <joker`> no i mean the actual implementation of pure functions is based on side-effects 22:44:28 <Phoodus> right, because reversible computing is pretty useless so far 22:44:47 <_6502_> Functional programming means writing programs which work by returning values instead of by performing side-effects. Side-effects include destructive changes to objects (e.g. by rplaca) and assignments to variables (e.g. by setq). If side-effects are few and localized, programs become easier to read, test, and debug. Lisp programs have not always been written in this style, but over time Lisp and functional programming have gradually beco 22:44:48 herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:48 <Phoodus> and that's all part of the universe monad anyway 22:44:54 *beach* gives up 22:45:02 <_6502_> (citation from On Lisp) 22:45:05 <joker`> that's why i think that the lack of side-effects is not necessary to be functional 22:45:12 <Phoodus> _6502_: that's by no means definitive 22:45:44 <pjb> _6502_: you have your answer then. Again what's your problem? PG says lisp is functional. Why are you not happy with that? 22:46:02 <Phoodus> joker`: you're also conflating the model with the implementation 22:47:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:47:39 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:39 <beach> joker`: Do you understand what you are doing here? You are just trying to push your own definition of "functional" but that is futile because anyone is allowed to define it the way he or she wants. Do you really expect everyone to agree with your defition? If you want the discussion to make progress, use a different word, say "cute", then define what you mean by "cute programming" and a "cute programming language". 22:49:37 <Phoodus> or to poke at it more, you'd have to draw some definitive line between which side effects are acceptable to remain "functional", and which ones aren't 22:49:47 *beach* is always amazed about how many intelligent people fall into that discourse trap. 22:49:54 <_6502_> pjb: dynamic binding is not functional, symbol-function is not functional, there is no functional data structure provided (except may be the commonly used idea of shared lists) 22:50:02 <Phoodus> and that would most likely fall right on the model/implementation boundary 22:50:08 <joker`> beach: no i actually wanted to weaken the definiton for functional programming ;) 22:50:18 <_6502_> pjb: but still lisp and functional programming are "inseparable" :-/ 22:50:20 <beach> joker`: Again, it is futile. 22:51:09 <Phoodus> _6502_: people use lisp for functional programming. What's the problem? 22:51:15 <gigamonkey> _6502_: by what definition of FP are dynamic binding and symbol-function not functional? 22:51:28 <joker`> beach: I don't think so. Talking about definitions sharpens your skills. 22:51:56 <beach> joker`: I agree that much. But arguing the specific menaing of a particular word, is futile. 22:52:24 <beach> joker`: And that's why I encourage you to use a different word, so that you have all the freedom you like to define it. 22:52:40 <_6502_> gigamonkey: they are based on the idea of side effect (altering a global environment) 22:52:45 <Phoodus> joker: especially when you admit to wanting to "relax the definition" 22:52:56 <Phoodus> s/relax/weaken/ 22:53:07 <Phoodus> which means you know you're already redefining it beyond the norm 22:53:08 <pjb> _6502_: vectors and arrays are functional data structures in CL, as long as you don't use setf, replace, map-into, etc. 22:53:08 <gigamonkey> _6502_: oh right. Not referentially transparent. 22:53:12 <_6502_> phoodus: you can do functional programming in COBOL ... (well, almost) ... but would you say that COBOL and functional programming are "inseparable" ? 22:53:36 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-98-113-194-183.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:47 <Phoodus> "inseparable" is used strangely there 22:54:01 <gigamonkey> _6502_: who says they're inseparable except PG? 22:54:03 <Phoodus> when people thing "functional programming", lisp just happens to be one language that oft comes to mind 22:54:10 <Phoodus> that's it 22:54:27 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:54:29 <Phoodus> but any language with a GC is pretty easy to do FP in 22:54:37 <gigamonkey> Certainly Lisp (generally, not Common Lisp specifically) has a very important historical role in the history of functional programming. 22:54:39 <Phoodus> it's just programmer policy (just like in Lisp) 22:54:51 <_6502_> pjb: a functional vector would have a function that given a vector, index and new value returns a new vector with that index set to the new value (without altering the old one). is there such a function in CL? 22:55:07 <pjb> Yes. 22:55:17 <gigamonkey> pjb will now write it. 22:55:27 <Phoodus> functional programming in lisp is typically done with cons trees 22:55:32 <pjb> It is called (lambda (v i n) (let ((r (copy-seq v))) (setf (aref v i) n) r)) 22:55:41 <pjb> gigamonkey: No, I just write it's name. 22:55:52 <tempire> is there a way for me to determine what packages have been :use'd by (defpackage) in in the current package? 22:55:55 <Phoodus> heh, lambda calculus to the semantic rescue! 22:56:12 *gigamonkey* is sad that he came on the scene too late to promote his term "eponymous functions" 22:56:25 <Phoodus> tempire: (package-use-list *package*) ? 22:56:29 <pjb> _6502_: I could give a definition not using setf, but it would be less efficient, (and the setf is used inside that function, without leaking any side effect). 22:56:50 <tempire> excellent, thanks 22:57:06 <_6502_> pjb: from an efficiency point of view it's already ugly enough the way it is... 22:57:13 <gigamonkey> pjb: didn't you probably want to setf the aref of r not v? 22:57:17 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.238.191] has joined #lisp 22:57:52 <pjb> right, (setf (aref r i) n), sorry. 22:58:38 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.223.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:58:38 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 22:58:46 <pjb> _6502_: it's not ugly because the first thing you do is to abstract it away giving it a name such as vector-set, and then just use (vector-set v i n). 22:58:47 <Phoodus> _6502_: doesn't look all that inefficient, unless the array gets huge. Functional arrays generally require traversal in order to dereference an index, which adds overhead in the majority of cases 22:59:54 <Phoodus> with the functional array implementations I've seen being backed by cons trees containing subarrays, so that when the value at an index changes, only a small array + small subset of conses need to be copied 23:00:01 <pjb> More to the point, in a purely functionnal program you would avoid setting a slot in a vector, since this is a O(n) operation, the whole vector having to be copied. You'd rather just create the vector once for all. Lisp support that very well with vector or make-array :initial-content. 23:00:38 <pjb> Phoodus: yes, but then aref becomes O(log n) instead of O(1). Functional data structures are slow. 23:00:47 <Phoodus> pjb: or refer to the original array and have a list of deltas, copying a new array when the delta list gets sufficiently large :) 23:01:06 <pjb> slow 23:01:34 <Phoodus> it's all slow, you just have to figre out what the tradeoff is in write speed vs read speed, all in the light of how large your arrays are going to be 23:01:42 <Phoodus> and batch writes vs singular writes 23:02:02 <Phoodus> but if you require functional arrays, you go through all that and come up with something suitable 23:02:07 <pjb> The trade off of using setf from time to time seems better. 23:02:27 <joker`> beach: there is a reason why i think it to be a clearer definition, and it is not futile for me 23:03:07 <Phoodus> joker`: you haven't offered your clearer definition though, just said that it shouldn't include 'no side effects', which isn't a clarifying change 23:03:40 <joker`> Phoodus: sure i did, first-class functions is my only criteria for a "cute" functional language 23:03:54 <Phoodus> really, I didn't think that was your whole definition 23:04:11 <Phoodus> and yeah, that really has little to do with the original "functional language" understanding, so I don't see the value in redifining that point 23:04:50 <joker`> Phoodus: What is the understanding of the original functional language 23:05:36 <Phoodus> referential transparency, lack of side effects, potentially allowing lazy or out-of-order calculation, acting like mathematical functions 23:06:05 <Phoodus> there's already a name for "first class functions", and that's generally something around "lambda calculus" 23:07:16 *beach* *sigh*s 23:07:31 <Phoodus> and yes, I probably just offended beach with my imprecision ;) 23:08:12 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:20 <Odin-> Inaccuracy, I believe. 23:08:26 <Phoodus> that, too 23:08:35 <Odin-> Not exactly the same thing, despite the similarity of words. 23:08:49 <beach> Phoodus: Actually, I don't give a damn. I just observe that #lisp is no better than a bunch of politicians. 23:09:21 <_6502_> i just was surprised of this extreme position on functional approach by PG... 23:09:25 <gigamonkey> I guess we all must live in representational democracies. 23:09:56 <beach> Next, why don't we argue about things like "complex number"? "What, I don't think they are complex at all!! I think in order for a number to complex, it should ...". 23:10:05 <madnificent> beach: still much better than most other programming language irc channels I've been in 23:10:15 <beach> madnificent: Definitely. 23:10:48 <joker`> beach: Are you tired of something? 23:10:56 <pjb> Paul Graham an extremist! 23:11:11 <pjb> Paul Graham a functional extremist! even. 23:11:22 <gigamonkey> How about this claim (apropos nothing): all programming languages can be put into one of there categories--those inspired by the lambda calculus (e.g. Lisp), those inspired by a typed lambda calculus (e.g. Haskell), and those inspired by Turing machines (e.g. C). 23:11:36 <madnificent> _6502_: a functional style does make many programs easier to grasp... perhaps you sholud look at it in the light of an educational book. 23:11:38 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 23:11:38 <_6502_> pjb: I don't think you can get past "inseparable"... therefore it's an extreme. 23:11:44 <joker`> No actually, one of my first languages was haskell and i think that lisp is as functional as it 23:11:51 <beach> joker`: Yes of futile unscientific arguments. 23:12:06 <Phoodus> "functional" is not a scalar 23:12:22 <pjb> _6502_: you should learn more. Of Common Lisp, and of lisp history. 23:12:23 <gigamonkey> I guess maybe logical languages don't fit in that tripartite scheme. 23:12:33 <madnificent> joker`: haskell has less non-functional elements than common lisp (or I'm missing something) 23:12:44 <pjb> madnificent: monads. 23:13:03 <Phoodus> and haskell has built-in currying, which lisp does not 23:13:06 <Phoodus> iirc 23:13:09 <pjb> CL is as functional as haskell, just consider everything you don't like is in a monad. 23:13:15 <madnificent> pjb: yeah, I know that... but are there others? It'll probably depend on how much it's used... and well, I don't want to go there. 23:13:20 <Phoodus> pjb: lol 23:13:35 <pjb> madnificent: or just have a look at the code generated by the haskell compilers! 23:13:44 <pjb> They use mutation as much as in any other language. 23:14:27 <madnificent> pjb: I don't think the generated code is what should be under discussion... and I also don't think that I should be having this argument :) Neither of us really care, right? 23:14:37 <madnificent> at least, I thought joker` was into it 23:14:54 <joker`> madnificent: arrows 23:15:02 <pjb> madnificent: that's the point! generated code is an implementation detail. Using setf in a function is also an implementation detail (as long as the function doesn't leak the side effect). 23:15:25 <madnificent> pjb: you made me smile :) 23:16:08 <Phoodus> I think all languages should be called "machine code", because it's inseparable 23:16:17 <_6502_> ok... sleeptime for me.... and i'll have bad nightmare where jillions of RPLACA monsters will try to bite me... 23:16:37 <joker`> Phoodus: i think all languages should be called turing-complete, and minecraft too 23:16:41 <madnificent> joker`: I don't like arrows, they're sharp and have the side-effect of hurting my eyes when they touch my pupils 23:16:52 <joker`> madnificent: mine too 23:16:58 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:35 -!- _6502_ [5e24fd14@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.253.20] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:19:34 -!- pirxs [~pirx@195.225.69.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:32 ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.138.8] has joined #lisp 23:21:53 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 23:24:18 <rpg> gigamonkey: Isn't C more inspired by URMs (unlimited register machines), rather than Turing Machines? 23:25:16 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:26:20 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e179012039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 23:27:39 <tempire> in uncommon-web, is there a way to create a backend within a custom package? it seems that the make-backend symbol is not exported by :ucw-standard 23:28:05 -!- redline6` [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:38 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:49 iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:30:14 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:31 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:30:37 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:30:59 -!- tmh [6c491df1@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:31:27 Nixfreak1 [~Aaron.Mei@mailserver.dayport.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:52 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:32:44 <TrasTorno> jm 23:34:56 <Nixfreak1> still arguing about why clojure is more popular 23:35:51 <antifuchs> Nixfreak1: arguing with whom? (: 23:36:06 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 23:37:56 -!- iori [~iori@110-133-45-54.rev.home.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:16 <Odin-> More popular than what? 23:39:44 -!- ars-delirum [~Adium@189.216.138.8] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:39:50 <madnificent> Nixfreak1: I think you meant Clozure 23:39:51 <Phoodus> arc 23:41:08 <Nixfreak1> nope clojure that runs on jvm 23:41:21 <Nixfreak1> gigamonkey and jbh I think 23:41:33 <gigamonkey> rpg: probably. But I'll claim--completely out of my butt--that URMs are based on Turing Machines. ;-) 23:41:37 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:41:53 <madnificent> I was afraid so 23:42:18 <madnificent> gigamonkey: you scared him! 23:43:13 <gigamonkey> antifuchs: I was arguing/speculating that Clojure was more popular than any other Lisp since Scheme and Common Lisp. 23:43:22 <antifuchs> gigamonkey: ah 23:43:31 <antifuchs> gigamonkey: sure, that sounds plausible (: 23:43:43 <antifuchs> gigamonkey: but you forgot pola^H^H^H^Helisp! 23:44:00 <joker`> gigamonkey: are you actually peter seibel? 23:44:13 <gigamonkey> joker`: yes 23:44:31 <antifuchs> gigamonkey: btw, kpreid is in the area of bay now, too. 23:44:39 <gigamonkey> antifuchs: pola... ? 23:44:53 <joker`> gigamonkey: wow thx for the book 23:44:54 <antifuchs> gigamonkey: that used to be a meme around the start of the iraq war, I think (: 23:44:55 <gigamonkey> Anyway, I'm claiming/pretending that elisp predates Common Lisp. 23:44:58 <antifuchs> "you forgot poland" (: 23:45:04 <antifuchs> I think a #lisp meeting is long overdue! 23:45:10 <gigamonkey> antifuchs: indeed. 23:45:16 pnq1 [~nick@172.131.183.29] has joined #lisp 23:45:22 <Odin-> "Wait, someone who's actually notable enough to have been heard of elsewhere is on IRC?" <-- Common reaction around here? 23:45:33 <antifuchs> haha 23:45:41 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA20804.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:43 <gigamonkey> It's easy to claim things predate Common Lisp because you can always use the 1994 final date of the spec. ;-) 23:45:53 <antifuchs> anybody ever spend any time on #joiito then? (: 23:45:58 <antifuchs> hahaha 23:46:10 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 23:46:20 <antifuchs> but you're right, elisp came first, and it is comfortable in its prehistoric language constructs (: 23:47:22 <p_l|backup> Odin-: true dat 23:47:25 <gigamonkey> Though according to Wikipedia Scheme predates elisp. 23:47:35 <antifuchs> hah! 23:47:46 <gigamonkey> I also choose to ignore elisp and Autolisp because they are "special purpose" 23:48:06 <antifuchs> Odin-: more like "wow, this person wrote a book about something and is still around answering questions?" 23:48:21 <Odin-> Rather than being languages for applications, they're languages inside applications? 23:48:41 <Odin-> antifuchs: Hm. True. 23:49:43 *Odin-* saw an interesting correlation between Julian Assange leaving IRC and becoming a media ... personality. 23:49:44 <gigamonkey> Odin-: yeah. 23:50:16 <Odin-> Which is probably why I'm predisposed towards the "heard of" interpretation. 23:51:25 *kpreid* waves 23:51:47 <Odin-> gigamonkey: I have a hard time thinking of JVM-languages as "real", though. Seems to be so heavily parasitical on the specifics of how Java decides to do things. 23:52:00 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-132-180.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 23:52:10 <p_l|backup> Odin-: heh. Assange case is interesting. Probably caused me to end up on the "list of people to harass" of TSA, too 23:52:23 <Odin-> p_l|backup: Oh? 23:52:45 *Odin-* is definitely _not_ going to the USA anytime soon, for pretty much that reason. :/ 23:53:02 *gigamonkey* waves back 23:53:03 <antifuchs> p_l|backup: you're on that too? ): 23:53:19 <p_l|backup> Odin-: it led to monitoring of twitter stream, and it was confirmed that complaining led to harrassment at borders 23:53:47 <antifuchs> p_l|backup: actually, TSA or homeland security? 23:53:51 <Odin-> Huh. That's pretty retarded. 23:53:52 <antifuchs> (we're all on the TSA's shitlist) (; 23:53:55 <tempire> don't let the TSA scare you away 23:54:10 <tempire> feign your citizenship with 4th amendment ware 23:54:11 <tempire> http://cargocollective.com/4thamendment 23:54:15 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:54:24 <p_l|backup> I called for TSA agents (and possibly homeland security) to be placed on list of people banned from entering EU due to being agents of repressive regime 23:54:46 <antifuchs> ahahaha, nice (: 23:55:02 <antifuchs> well done (; 23:55:03 <p_l|backup> tempire: I'm not US citizen... and frankly speaking, reading about things like MKULTRA made me seriously want to avoid becoming one 23:55:47 <tempire> but you can fake it with the best of them with your certified amendment ware! 23:55:50 <p_l|backup> antifuchs: it's funnier when you notice the parallel that the name "Department of Homeland Security" evokes in people who know Europe's modern history 23:56:12 <ChibaPet> It evokes that in Americans too. 23:56:14 <Odin-> Ministerium für Staatliche Sicherheit? 23:56:29 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:56:48 <Odin->   ? 23:57:05 <p_l|backup> Odin-: and KGB, SB/UB (Security Service/Department of Security, both names had been used during PRL), etc. 23:57:24 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:57:29 <p_l|backup> Gestapo had somewhat similar meaning in full form, didn't it? 23:57:32 <Odin-> Yeah. It's a pretty horrible name. 23:57:40 <Odin-> Not really. 23:57:51 <tempire> DHS disturbs me as well. probably more so, as a us citizen 23:57:53 <Odin-> Geheime Staatspolizei -> "secret police" 23:58:05 <p_l|backup> Odin-: ah. at least they were up front about it 23:58:06 <tempire> but I have to say, britain's current direction scares me a bit more. 23:58:31 <Odin-> p_l|backup: Then there was the SS's Sicherheitsdienst. 23:58:43 <Odin-> p_l|backup: Those were the _real_ scary ones. 23:58:43 <p_l|backup> tempire: UK would probably explode before it can got that far 23:58:54 <ChibaPet> At airports, we can now choose between backscatter scanners that push more radiation than medical CT scans or invasive groping of genitals. Land of the Free is now a joke. 23:59:05 <tempire> every time I read something about the UK, I ask myself, did they NOT SEE V FOR VENDETTA!? 23:59:07 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:14 <p_l|backup> Odin-: depends on where - In poland, SS had less impact than Gestapo 23:59:15 <tempire> it's like they're following the script, and we all know how it ends 23:59:22 <Nixfreak1> question I don't see alot of exploits for lisp code is that because its protected ? 23:59:27 <Nixfreak1> unlike C or C++ 23:59:37 <p_l|backup> Nixfreak1: more like rare 23:59:41 <Phoodus> it's not a popular target 23:59:46 <ChibaPet> Nix, it's likely the result of garbage collection and ... popularity. 23:59:53 <p_l|backup> Nixfreak1: also, there are certain things that can remove certain kinds of exploits