00:03:58 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-159-104.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:46 I caused some other sort of error... SBCL says that bordeaux-threads:make-thread is unbound after I require bordeaux-threads? Can I force recompilation or something? 00:06:02 Bike: Unbound as a function or as a variable? 00:06:08 Both. 00:06:20 And you have a threaded SBCL? 00:06:24 nyef: Maybe not important, but as I recall, it might not be possible according to the spec to draw on ungrafted sheets and then have the output show up when the sheet is grafted. 00:06:42 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:55 nyef: Yes. bordeaux-threads:*supports-threads-p* is bound and T. 00:07:11 does SBCL offer OS threads in lieu of coroutines/green threads? 00:07:14 beach: I don't believe that it would be possible, as you need a medium in order to draw, and you can't get a medium for an ungrafted sheet, right? 00:07:28 MasterBismuth: yes, that's the only threading it supports (: 00:07:28 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.210.89] has quit [Quit: Zzz] 00:07:30 MasterBismuth: Yes, SBCL uses OS threads. 00:07:34 MasterBismuth: but it's not available on all platforms 00:07:45 yes. I noticed that there was no Windows support for it. 00:07:52 shame though, because I do like cothreads 00:07:54 yet! 00:07:58 nyef: Something like that yes. 00:08:00 There's a separate windows threading branch. 00:08:08 beach: Do I imply otherwise somewhere? 00:08:40 MasterBismuth: they enable mental laziness like process-wait 00:08:59 coroutines? 00:09:08 ah 00:09:17 well, green threads do (: 00:09:23 Could I just axe and redownload bordeaux-threads? 00:09:24 Hey, process-wait is cool! 00:09:28 is there a difference tho? 00:09:34 anyway. I hear yesterday was thursday and tomorrow's saturday. 00:09:42 I'll be back later (: 00:09:44 I thought green threads and coroutines were the same deal. 00:09:50 antifuchs: I suspect that that's not actually true further east. 00:10:09 A coroutine is a function with multiple entry points, while a green thread is a thread implemented above OS level, I thought? 00:10:12 nyef: No, but reading the first paragraph one might have thought so. But no, you don't imply that. 00:10:14 (Say, in Europe.) 00:10:40 Okay, good. 00:11:13 maybe, though I don't quite think I know what is implied by multiple points of entry 00:11:17 *jtza8* notes GMT+2 ~02:11 (Saterday) 00:11:34 MasterBismuth: You do yield and then resume later? 00:12:07 yes 00:12:12 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:18 nyef: Sorry, I am very slow when I read stuff like that, because I think of every word that is used. Brain damage from reading and writing specs I guess. 00:12:32 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-12-235.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: I NEED to sleep, but I don't.] 00:12:39 Hey, that kind of nitpicking is not a drawback here. 00:12:55 Okay, that worked. Not my ideal solution, though. :/ 00:12:57 I'm probably going to have to write my own spec for this in the end anyway. 00:13:01 nyef: Right. I am just trying to explain why I haven't finished reading yet. 00:13:13 Ah, okay. 00:13:41 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:14:09 The big problem I'm having right now is the geometry stuff, including but not limited to regions. 00:15:24 I thought we had that worked out. What is the problem? 00:17:06 -!- Geef [~Geef@32.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Error: Out of Cheese] 00:17:06 [reading along...] I buy your argument as to why sheets must have a common event queue. 00:17:32 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:18:07 The only composite (non-simple) region class is the region-set, which is defined in terms of axis-aligned rectangular areas. 00:18:35 Oh? Missed that one. 00:18:43 Apply any non-rectilinear transform to that, and you lose. 00:19:03 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:19:05 Apply any region composition to an ellipse, and you lose. 00:19:36 nyef: Where do you see that? 00:19:38 BrokenCog [~bc@pool-108-18-168-167.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:40 Take the region intersection of a line and an arc that happen to intersect twice, and you end up with two points, and have to represent them as axis-aligned rectangles, which have two more dimensions than the points. 00:20:05 An ellipse is not representable as an axis-aligned rectangle unless you rasterize it, which is an approximation. 00:20:35 And, once more, transform the result and it starts getting -really- wrong. 00:20:49 True, but I don't see where region-set has to be rectangles. 00:21:15 Oh, wait, I see it. 00:21:36 Er, no I don't. 00:21:45 Where is it? 00:22:03 Hrm. You may be right. 00:22:10 Re-reading the definition of region-set-regions now. 00:24:07 Heh. Rectangles for :y-banding aren't required to be axis-aligned, but they are for :x-banding. 00:24:35 Hmm. :( 00:27:48 Hrm. Making region-sets make sense may be hard... There's region-set-regions, but the operation involved in a region-set is not necessarily union, and there's no way to read the operation out of the region-set. 00:29:04 nyef: I think you can safely put regions aside for now, at least being used with full generality to define the shape of a sheet. 00:29:04 Once a region or region-set is rasterized for use in something like setting a window shape, the rasterized region may cover a different set of points than the original region describes. 00:30:16 Not entirely, as I still need rectangles and sets of rectangles. 00:30:28 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 00:30:42 Hence "with full generality". 00:30:44 Even if it's just for setting the size of a sheet and for dealing with update regions in repaint. 00:30:49 Ah, fair enough. 00:31:00 nyef: Take the simple fact that it is impossible to determine whether the intersection of two regions is empty or not. 00:31:40 Haven't found that one yet, TBH. 00:32:06 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:32:14 nyef: The standard requires it, but there is no way to implement it, at least that I can see. 00:32:27 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@nat/google/x-kfnpodalvpdfufjp] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 00:32:34 What's one of the problem cases? 00:32:51 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:33:50 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.33] has joined #lisp 00:34:01 (Alternately, how could I go about finding one of the problem cases for myself?) 00:34:34 nyef: I forget exactly. Try two regions defined as unions. 00:35:13 Hrm... bit of a cross-product effect, there. 00:35:22 I need to go. I'll read your notes off line and get back to you. Sorry! 00:35:29 htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 00:35:35 Okay, have fun with whatever it is you're up to. 00:35:44 I'll try! 00:36:21 I guess my next step is to re-read the spec on geometry, more carefully this time. 00:36:41 -!- astoon [~chatzilla@nat105-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:36:51 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 00:36:52 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 00:36:52 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 00:39:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:40:56 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 00:50:45 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:48 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:10 szr [~SR@unaffiliated/szr] has joined #lisp 00:57:02 Okay, I know how to break region-sets, badly: Do almost anything other than a union with an ellipse. Difference a rectangle out of an ellipse? You can't represent that with a simple region, and you can't represent it with a union of simple regions. Same the other way around, differencing an ellipse out of a rectangle. 00:59:38 Intersect an ellipse with a rectangle, and unless one of the corners of the rectangle is the center of the ellipse, or the ellipse is entirely bisected through its center point by an edge of the rectangle, same thing. 00:59:54 astoon [~chatzilla@nat105-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has joined #lisp 01:11:27 ltriant [~ltriant@203-217-69-111.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:12:20 Oh, or if the rectangle is entirely contained within the ellipse. 01:12:38 Umm... And even then, some cases might still be broken. 01:15:20 muhdick [~qle@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:58 nyef: I assume it's a fundamental issue with the API? 01:16:23 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has joined #lisp 01:21:00 It might not be, but if it isn't the there's something missing from the specification of region-sets. 01:23:14 -!- astoon [~chatzilla@nat105-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:24:08 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: I'll see you on the dark side of the moon] 01:24:33 ... Okay, looks like I really do need to re-read this spec carefully. 01:28:48 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:58 -!- muhdick [~qle@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:31:22 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-193-133.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:37:11 astoon [~chatzilla@nat105-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has joined #lisp 01:37:34 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 01:42:00 c|mell [~cmell@178.175.101.26] has joined #lisp 01:43:52 http://paste.lisp.org/display/121679#1 i can't get it to work correctly-- anyone want to try? 01:43:57 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:45:02 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.211] has joined #lisp 01:48:21 -!- htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:49:33 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 01:50:10 miton [~miton@ip72-218-24-12.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:47 kpreid [~kpreid@cpe-67-249-228-147.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:52:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 01:52:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 01:52:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 01:52:52 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 01:55:20 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:59:04 ramus: Have you tried (TRACE SEQUENCE-COMPOSITION), and seeing what the intermediate values are? 01:59:52 nyef: been using it to try find the problem-- still haven't quite wrapped my head around it 02:00:16 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:29 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:48 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:03:16 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:56 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:47 -!- loke [~elias@bb220-255-86-123.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:05:34 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:34 loke [~elias@bb219-74-111-198.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:09:33 -!- italic [~italic@cpe-67-242-144-94.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:26:18 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:26:24 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 02:26:40 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:26:53 antifuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:40:16 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:06 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 02:42:06 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 02:42:06 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 02:43:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:59 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:26 xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:21 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:45 spacemagic [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:51 doc_who [~doc_who@138-78-106-96.resnet.smcm.edu] has joined #lisp 02:55:42 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 02:57:05 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-131-96.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 03:02:29 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 03:03:50 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5C22.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:04:18 -!- jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:04:48 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Client Quit] 03:07:57 -!- BrokenCog [~bc@pool-108-18-168-167.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:08:01 -!- spacemagic [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110323142937]] 03:13:50 htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 03:16:16 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.100] has joined #lisp 03:18:19 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:18:44 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 03:18:44 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 03:18:44 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 03:22:04 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:22:04 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 03:25:10 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 03:27:08 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:27:24 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:28:10 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:30:15 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:30:25 is touretzky's book worth getting 03:30:28 -!- htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:06 Is this the state of the art for bcrypt from CL? http://www.letsyouandhimfight.com/2010/07/14/cl-bcrypt-a-first-attempt/ 03:36:17 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 03:42:18 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-168289.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 03:43:47 -!- pnq [~nick@AC821BFA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:45:57 -!- jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-wudnkiejdpdmotxb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:46:11 jweiss [~user@209.132.181.86] has joined #lisp 03:46:34 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:48 -!- jweiss [~user@209.132.181.86] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:47:38 -!- astoon [~chatzilla@nat105-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [SeaMonkey 2.0.12/20110302200646]] 03:50:08 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:50:09 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 03:52:51 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:19 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-68-75.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57:07 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:48 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-150-63.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:59:59 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 04:02:45 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:04:39 zenlunatic: gentle introduction to symbolic computation? you can download it free 04:10:15 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:10:17 http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 04:10:30 madrik [~madrik@122.168.138.145] has joined #lisp 04:11:08 djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:14:20 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.107.125] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:23:09 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:24:40 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:45 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:46 macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.66.105] has joined #lisp 04:26:14 cesarbp_ [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has joined #lisp 04:26:27 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:26:40 -!- cesarbp_ is now known as cesarbp 04:28:11 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:28:17 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 04:29:21 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 04:30:50 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.66.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:30:54 -!- Vejeta [~user@unaffiliated/vejeta] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31:13 jmbr__ [~jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 04:31:18 Vejeta [~user@unaffiliated/vejeta] has joined #lisp 04:32:22 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:24 -!- phua [~phua@adsl-99-63-93-4.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:33:28 -!- jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:33:48 jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has joined #lisp 04:39:08 napping [~brandon@c-98-228-139-19.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:13 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:52:15 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-162-110.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:15 Is there some way to make a macro that unshadows a binding, so (let ((x 1)) (let ((x 2)) (unlet (x) x))) => 1 04:52:17 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-162-110.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 04:52:34 napping: no. 04:53:11 (Though if you're willing to wrap someting around the outer let, anything is possible.) 04:54:12 Yeah. I was thinking something like that might be an easier way to avoid variable captures in macros, without explicit gensyms or getting into hygeine systems 04:54:38 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:56 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:56:51 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.44.41] has joined #lisp 04:58:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:03 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 05:03:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-24.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:03:21 phua [~phua@adsl-99-63-93-4.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:00 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:07:12 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:45 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:19 antifuchs: reading the logs (backwards from where I left off this afternoon) -- I thought you were going to recommend Inside Macintosh :) 05:09:30 hahaha 05:09:38 I think that might be the successor 05:09:38 I think I finally sent all those to the dump many years ago 05:09:52 and evening folks 05:11:55 peddie [~peddie@repl.esden.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:08 Evening. 05:20:37 slyrus: I may have asked this before but if so I forgot the answer. What have you been using Clojure for? 05:21:10 Jasko [~tjasko@wsip-70-169-170-222.pn.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:20 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-92-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:22:11 hey gigamonkey, nothing lately 05:22:29 I spent some time playing with it, ported some of my chemistry and graph stuff to it 05:22:47 contemplated using it for computational biology and image processing stuff 05:23:07 got annoyed at the JVM and the clojure build process (leningen, maven, etc...) 05:23:13 clojars, etc... 05:23:17 I prefer quicklisp :) 05:23:24 Yeah. That's the most off putting thing about it. 05:23:45 what I really want is a clojure-y dialect that runs on top of SBCL's code generation/gc infrastucture... 05:23:52 On the other hand, having spent a couple days hacking around with Hunchentoot, I'm feeling despondent. 05:24:01 gigamonkey: too us anyway :) 05:24:13 slyrus: exactly. 05:24:22 oh, really? I had a similar hunchentoot experience recently -- which I think I mentioned 05:24:36 It just doesn't feel fully baked to me. 05:24:37 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:25:01 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:26:05 gigamonkey: the other off-putting thing about clojure (besides the JVM of course...) is that so many clojure "libraries" are just thin layers around crazy java jars 05:26:17 -!- sacho [~sacho@77.70.111.88] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:26:29 slyrus: yeah. From my point of view the worst thing about Clojure is Java. But for folks who like Clojure, that's the best thing about it. 05:26:30 ... which actually have a lot of functionality in them -- even if they are usually way over-engineered (by necessity?) 05:26:35 heh 05:27:37 I'm also intrigued by the strain of anti-Common Lisp sentiment I've seen among Clojure folks. 05:28:06 OTOH, with clojure one can do things like 1) write a GUI-ish program with windows, menus, and a graphics substrate without needing a PhD in computer science and 2) make, for what their worth, some form of distributable "binary"-ish program that has a chance of working somewhere besides the machine on which it was compiled 05:28:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-24.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:28:33 Yup. 05:28:45 those are often things that people new to lisp want to do and are repeatedly told: "why would why want to do such a stupid thing" until submission... 05:29:08 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:29:08 I seem to be good at tuning out the anti-CL sentiments 05:29:17 "la la la I can't hear you la la la!" 05:29:23 Yeah, they don't bother me. I just find it interesting. 05:30:14 What sorts of things do people want to do? 05:30:30 the whole "ooh! emacs and slime are black magic! let's not go near those except to use some way-out-of-date-but-sanctioned-by-the-last-guy-who-actually-knew-how-to-build-things version of stuff struck me as very odd... 05:30:42 napping: 1) and 2) above 05:31:11 Oh, I thought you were still talking about anti-CL sentiment 05:31:28 no, I just tune that out :) 05:31:51 gigamonkey: what were you doing with hunchentoot and where did you run into problems? 05:32:06 I'm just trying to, you know, build a web site. ;-) 05:32:35 it would be great to see hunchentoot's infrastructure brought into modern times (event-based stuff -- suitable for handling lots of traffic) 05:32:41 oh, that 05:32:52 yeah, mine still crashes all the time and hardly ever gets any traffic 05:32:53 It's the it's a server/it's a server-building toolkit back and forth makes me feel unhappy. 05:33:07 I can't imagine if I were actually trying to host something folks might want to use with it... 05:33:19 And knowing that there almost certainly aren't lots of people running production web sites on it 05:33:38 well, I think it can be both... but it would be nice if the server-building toolkit aspect were more fully exploited 05:33:43 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:34:08 gigamonkey: ask @BigThingist. IIRC, he has built websites based on the 'toot 05:34:13 also, well, ITA, I guess ((: 05:34:18 My problem is when it trys to be an out-of-the-box server it seems not-ready-for-primetime. 05:34:22 they might have something to say about its stability as well (: 05:34:44 But the server-toolkit persona is crudded up with all the out-of-the-box server foo. 05:35:00 ah (: 05:35:26 yeah, I've had best results using a modified version of xach's startup scripts and ignoring the out-of-the-box stuff altogether 05:36:00 I'm tempted to throw it in git and start deleting everything I don't like and see if I still have a running web server when I'm done. 05:36:04 also, have nginx proxy to it. just... don't expose the thing to the internet (: 05:36:12 gigamonkey: !!! 05:36:14 Yeah, I use Apache. 05:36:14 approval 05:36:45 antifuchs: that bothers me... why should I have to use nginx? 05:36:48 hunchentoot is very much like rack, except it has non-minimal appendages 05:36:50 or apache... 05:36:55 Which takes me back to when I worked at Weblogic in 1998 and it was a web server but we always warned folks that it was probably best to hide it behind a "real" webserver. 05:37:00 slyrus: because cl file io is slow (: 05:37:01 which is probably why my webserver crashes so frequently... 05:37:13 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 05:37:17 antifuchs: really? 05:37:26 gigamonkey: ouch 05:37:30 (or something like that, says my prejudice) (: 05:37:56 also, they've been debugged and tested extensively and have had people attempt to break into them 05:38:11 agumonkey [agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:15 plus, they're easy to install security updates for, using distro mechanisms 05:38:28 mattc [~user@ppp118-209-227-144.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:46 no longer that much of an issue, thanks to ql; but still... I'm not aware of a security/vendor hotline for hunchentoot (: 05:38:46 Though I don't take any advantage of the allegedly faster file io of a non-Lisp server since I just proxy everything through to 'toot. 05:39:29 I have nginx gzip-compress stuff, do and serve files; it's what Every Other Web App Server does, and I don't question the wisdom of it much 05:40:17 My problem is I need Lisp to see the request before I can decide if it's a request for a static file or not. 05:40:26 I could probably fix that, though. 05:40:28 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:40:51 anyway. a more minimal, one-way-to-do-it hunchentoot would be excellent. I've compared it to rack often, and that would make it even more similar 05:41:08 similar/better (: 05:43:09 slyrus: you have a version of Hunchentoot on github, right? 05:43:22 Did that start from 1.1.1? 05:43:52 Okay, the Rack guys are failing at providing the link to the "what the hell is it actually page" 05:44:20 gigamonkey: it's http on one side, and a ruby library for building web servers on the other. 05:44:57 So it actually implements HTTP and handles sockets, etc? 05:45:11 I believe it does, yeah 05:45:26 gigamonkey: maybe from archimag's version? 05:45:39 But then converts the requests into calls on some objects that you provide? 05:45:52 node.js looks neat too 05:46:10 gigamonkey: I think it invokes blocks as callbacks to certain things; I'm not sure how it works anymore 05:46:20 The node.js guy gave an (unintentionally) hilarious talk at CodeConf. 05:46:38 another of those manual CPS conversion deals? 05:46:41 but it's so very decent that it made every ruby web framework switch over to using it as the substrate for their HTTP interfacing 05:46:51 (and spawned a few others built on top of it specifically) 05:47:31 The last time I was up on the state-of-the-art in web development was when it was Perl and CGI. 05:48:22 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 05:49:09 well. anyway. point is, something that just interfaces to HTTP and lets a lisp library hook into it without any additional magic would be very nice. 05:49:28 just like hunchentoot does, without the easy-handlering, file-serving, apache logging, etc. 05:50:24 topeak [~topeak@180.77.211.95] has joined #lisp 05:50:25 I also find the pervasive use of dynamic variables worrisome. 05:50:58 antifuchs: no logging on the theory that you're already running a "real" web server that's doing that? 05:51:23 maybe they're there for performance reasons. I don't worry about specials so much (especially if they make things easier in the http callbacks) 05:51:33 gigamonkey: the dynamic variables aren't so bad... 05:51:41 it's not too hard to strip the easy handler stuff out of hunchentoot 05:51:52 no logging based on the assumption that it requires mod_lisp and nobody uses that anyway 05:52:05 slyrus: they may be fine. They just give me the heebie jeebies because it's not always clear when they need to be reset if you want to change things. 05:52:28 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:52:50 antifuchs: huh? 05:52:52 oh, haha, hans & edi actually removed mod_lisp in the current release. nice. 05:53:18 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 05:53:18 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 05:53:18 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 05:53:20 there were a bunch of very well-documented functions that let you send log entries over to apache if you used mod_lisp 05:53:28 those are gone now. good riddance (: 05:53:36 ah, ok 05:54:16 well, that pretty much removes a good half of my biggest gripes! 05:57:12 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 05:57:44 good morning 05:58:06 my view is that there's a lot of good stuff in hunchentoot and that it should be exploited to make better lispy webservers... 05:59:08 slyrus: a noble goal. 05:59:10 Well, I'm off. Later folks. 06:00:07 night gigamonkey 06:03:09 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:38 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:06:41 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 06:07:13 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:09:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:10:56 gigamonkey: hi,are you the author of the practical common lisp? 06:12:14 gigamonkey: i'm reading this book.what a good book:) 06:18:15 -!- setmeaway [jnoos43@119.201.52.252] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:18:33 setmeaway [setmeaway3@119.201.52.252] has joined #lisp 06:19:23 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:23:05 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:23:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:23:05 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:25:15 cfy: gigamonkey is the author, and went to sleep. 06:25:29 pjb: oh.thx 06:26:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:28:54 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander 06:30:56 -!- phua [~phua@adsl-99-63-93-4.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:31:27 -!- napping [~brandon@c-98-228-139-19.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:35:15 -!- xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:39:41 *slyrus* hates maven 06:42:56 *easyE* does too. 06:45:59 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:55:39 *slyrus* thinks the maven developers conned some morons into paying them by the number of download jars... 06:55:53 hate hate hate 06:59:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-5.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:08:19 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:41 davekong [~davekong@unaffiliated/davekong] has joined #lisp 07:10:08 I am writing a program that uses threads (using sb-threads atm) and the threads are making very little use of the cpu, any ideas how to troubleshoot this kind of issue? 07:11:10 When I time the program I get cpu usage of around 4% with pretty much nothing else being run on the machine 07:12:02 when I run the functions stand-alone they use around 100% 07:13:28 davekong: do they use some common objects? 07:15:48 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:16:12 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:18:27 pjb: hmm, they both read from a common object 07:19:05 Reading should be ok. I'd not expect sbcl to make any fuss about it. 07:19:57 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:21:27 orivej [~orivej@host-116-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 07:21:30 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:39 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:23:24 hmm actually looks like cpu for stand-along is more like 42% but still that means it is going ten times faster 07:24:26 Are threads typically efficient? 07:24:44 Never. 07:24:49 There's always some overhead. 07:24:57 The more threads you have, the more overhead you get. 07:25:13 but there is less overhead than if I spawned more processes? 07:25:34 The only saving grace, is that if you have multiple cores, you can trade this lost overhead against a result closer in the future. 07:25:49 -!- madrik [~madrik@122.168.138.145] has left #lisp 07:26:46 Well the choice between processes and threads is much more directed by other considerations than this overhead... 07:26:47 well I am trying to run a bunch of AI agents against each other so I can't really do it without threads or processes 07:27:28 And how could those agents do anything against each other by only reading? 07:27:58 they initialize a local game state 07:28:06 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-18.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:28:08 Seems to me you lied, and you have write access, and for some types of values, sbcl implements of course mutexes on writing. 07:28:27 well if I lied I didn't mean to 07:28:39 I am not passing around a shared game state 07:29:00 But is there a global game state the agents all write to? 07:29:05 there is an arbitor that controls the game over tcp 07:29:21 no 07:30:10 If you communicate thru tcp/ip then you can as well use processes rather than threads. 07:30:15 -!- salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.1 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 07:31:00 In any case, you could do the experiment, and see if this improves your CPU usage. In this case, you'd know that you had some mutex serializing your threads. 07:34:00 ahh! many hours later /me discovers that itunes wants so-called "optimized" mp4 files. time to update iso-media.lisp :( 07:34:08 or maybe tomorrow anyway... 07:35:47 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:48:50 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 07:52:14 abhinav [~abhinav@122.167.168.20] has joined #lisp 07:52:45 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:54:07 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.44.41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:54:35 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 07:54:38 -!- topeak [~topeak@180.77.211.95] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:55:22 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-96-164.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:18 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-2-229.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:03:50 HET2 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[~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:28:51 KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.238.159] has joined #lisp 10:29:31 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-31-179.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 10:29:46 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.238.159] has quit [Client Quit] 10:30:03 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:30:16 KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.238.159] has joined #lisp 10:31:29 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 10:32:10 Can someone recommend me which prolog implementation in lisp to use ? 10:34:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-208.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:35:12 -!- loke [~elias@bb119-74-199-78.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:35:33 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:36:31 loke [~elias@bb121-6-175-153.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 10:38:50 -!- loke [~elias@bb121-6-175-153.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:58 hi fe[nl]ix 10:40:20 tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:41:39 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-31-179.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 10:42:24 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:42:25 jmbr__ [~jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:43:18 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:44:32 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@vpn132.vpn.ucm.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:45:16 francogrex [~user@109.130.85.2] has joined #lisp 10:46:06 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:46:26 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 10:46:47 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:46:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:47:58 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] 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[~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:07 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:13:58 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.85.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:16:02 -!- Krystof [~csr21@2.26.222.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:18:56 Krystof [~csr21@2.26.240.214] has joined #lisp 11:19:45 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:21:14 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-137-35-244.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:21:41 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 11:21:56 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Client Quit] 11:23:40 TheRealLongshot_ [~longshot@180.184.38.147] has joined #lisp 11:24:19 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:24:20 -!- TheRealLongshot_ is now known as TheRealLongshot 11:30:46 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:32:01 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@180.184.38.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:32:08 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-12-235.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:35:04 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-137-35-244.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:04 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-137-35-244.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 11:35:04 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 11:40:13 rookievoice [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:40:43 -!- The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:41:11 I've written code for the automisation of exporting symbols from packages. It works dirrectly in CL by finding relevant symbols to export, then manually ignoring or exporting symbols specified via a reader-macro... It works transparently, but my only problem is calling the appropriate code after all symbols have been loaded. 11:41:31 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:43:45 I could put that in a separate file, but is there a good way to specify code to load /after/ asdf loaded the rest? 11:46:26 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@wsip-70-169-170-222.pn.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:46:41 jtza8: you can add an :after metho 11:49:00 To the ASDF defsystem macro? 11:50:22 The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 11:51:28 Xach: I'm just not quite sure what you mean. Could you perhaps elaborate a bit? 11:54:25 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:54:44 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:55:16 Krystof_ [~csr21@2.26.223.81] has joined #lisp 11:55:26 -!- nixfreak [~nixfreak@mn-10k-dhcp1-3174.dsl.hickorytech.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:55:32 agumonkey [agumonkey@150.59.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:08 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@150.59.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:56:09 -!- Krystof [~csr21@2.26.240.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:58:42 Krystof__ [~csr21@2.26.212.183] has joined #lisp 12:00:15 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 12:00:49 -!- Krystof_ [~csr21@2.26.223.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:01:35 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 12:04:25 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 12:04:34 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 12:16:32 jtza8: what about (eval-when (:execute :load-toplevel) (export-symbols)) at the end of the file? 12:17:26 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:19:07 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:19:58 pjb: Hehe, thanks, I thought the only option would be to force people to use the :serial defsystem option. Much appreciated. 12:21:28 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:23:27 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-12-154.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:23:54 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:55 -!- Intensity [JrhZD9zVbT@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:25:53 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:30 tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:42 Bronsa [~brace@host162-186-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:30:17 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:32:42 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:34:21 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:35:27 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:36:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:37:01 c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CCD8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:39:46 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-12-154.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:39:53 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:21 pjb: Couldn't get EVAL-WHEN to work as ASDF compiles, loads and executes the .asd file before anything-else is loaded. 12:43:46 If there is a ":load-after-components" keyword in ASDF:DEFSYSTEM that anyone knows about, please enlighten me? 12:43:52 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:05 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:44:31 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48:51 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 12:49:55 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:48 jtza8: again, you could put it in a separate file, which would depend on the other files, so that it's loaded after them. 12:51:58 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 12:52:03 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 12:54:44 francogrex [~user@109.130.85.2] has joined #lisp 12:57:07 pjb: If I understand correctly, this would equate to using ":serial t" and specifying the "separate file" as the last component? 12:57:11 But it might be simplier to define the after method: (defmethod operate :after ((op (eql 'asdf:load-op)) (system (eql :your-system))) (export-symbols)) 12:57:18 TheRealLongshot [~longshot@180.184.38.157] has joined #lisp 12:57:19 jtza8: yes. 12:58:34 s/operate/perform/ 12:58:57 http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/A-more-involved-example.html#A-more-involved-example 12:59:19 Thanks pjb, you've helped me a lot. 13:00:20 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@180.184.38.157] has quit [Client Quit] 13:00:50 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-113-163.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:27 Hi, is there a cl ustility to make htpasswd files ? 13:03:44 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 13:03:49 francogrex: I don't know. Perhaps. I've a package to read /etc/passwd and /etc/group... 13:04:01 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:04:24 francogrex: there are utilities to deal with those htpasswd files... 13:04:45 ok, is on your site i suppose 13:07:59 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 13:08:37 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.134.161] has joined #lisp 13:10:28 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:12:55 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:43 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:21:14 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 13:21:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 13:21:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:24:49 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:26:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:28:33 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.85.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-12-235.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:33:36 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-179-47-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:46 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:07 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:38:10 <_3b> hmm, not sure it is a good sign when you implement something completly wrong and more tests pass :/ 13:38:13 p_l|home [~pl@095160126081.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:39:12 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:39:19 certainly buts a dent in the confidence of the test code 13:39:22 puts* 13:39:54 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:39:59 -!- miton [~miton@ip72-218-24-12.hr.hr.cox.net] has left #lisp 13:41:10 <_3b> well, the tests weren't supposed to be testing that particular function, but still not quite expected 13:41:15 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:41:29 <_3b> at least fixing it makes the totals look reasonable compared to when it wasn't implemented at all 13:41:30 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:11 <_3b> same # of fails as without it at all, more pass, less errors 13:42:31 <_3b> yay for actually reading the code before i check it in :p 13:43:20 *_3b* supposes the correct thing to do would be to actually test the new code 13:45:31 carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.21] has joined #lisp 13:48:03 _3b, out of interest, do you use remote repos? 13:48:07 for dev 13:48:17 <_3b> how do you mean 13:48:33 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.152.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:48:37 source control 13:48:53 you said 'check it in' 13:49:16 which conjured up the thought of some source control 13:49:43 <_3b> ah, yeah, this was a commit to local git repo, to be pushde to github at some point 13:50:06 Guthur: how else would you develop anything? 13:51:31 *_3b* mostly only moves stuff between machines by way of remote repos, helps make sure there is an off-site copy 13:52:24 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:24 *_3b* doesn't push constantly like some people though, just every day or 2, or when a particular task/feature gets done, or when moving between machines 13:53:25 -!- p_l|home [~pl@095160126081.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:54:38 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-145-56-141.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:54:59 i push whenever something is in consistent state and i assume it should work, but nobody uses my stuff anyway, so i don't worry much 13:55:25 the stuff somebody else uses is controlled by CVS... 13:55:29 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:55:42 I should use it proper source control more 13:55:50 mine is just a directory, eek 13:55:57 <_3b> heh 13:56:33 *_3b* doesn't use git as well as it could be used though, too many big commits, not enoug branching, etc 13:56:59 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.211] has joined #lisp 13:57:11 http://troll.me/images/the-most-interesting-man-in-the-world/xi-dont-always-test-my-code-but-when-i-do-i-do-it-in-production-thumb.jpg.pagespeed.ic.mi-XdqCthq.jpg 13:57:42 <_3b> heh 13:57:59 is that anyone I should know 13:58:03 drdo: i employ "commit and see if anybody complains" testing 13:58:57 Guthur: I have no idea who that is, i just like that image 13:59:11 wtf, why is the last update breaking my sbcl ? 13:59:21 uhh 13:59:32 <_3b> it doesn't like you? 13:59:58 lol 14:00:07 *stassats* hopes that's not one his commits! 14:00:14 one of 14:00:34 did somone made the #+, #- things change meaning in vice-versa manner ? 14:00:39 <_3b> stassats: why? it wouldmean your testing strategy is effective :) 14:00:39 stassats: Wow, i'm good at this, i didn't even notice the missing "of" 14:01:59 homie: why would somebody do that? 14:02:30 Sounds like an awesome prank 14:02:43 <_3b> homie: paste code, *features* ? 14:02:46 or why is my #-maxima (cl-user::run) line all of a sudden causing an (cl-user::run) is not defined error in sbcl ? 14:03:01 <_3b> is :maxima in *features* ? 14:03:12 no it is not 14:03:17 that's why i don't get it 14:03:18 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.238.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:03:29 so, it should be #+maxima, shouldn't it? 14:03:43 <_3b> so it should evaluate that form, right? 14:04:19 well, then i would have to change all #-'s to #+'s and vice versa then... 14:04:20 cl-user::run is defined by maxima, so i expect it to be undefined if maxima isn't present 14:04:33 ah ok 14:04:37 that maybe it 14:04:54 well ok, then the previous build was not ok mabe 14:05:06 since it wouldn't mutter about it then 14:05:29 <_3b> or maybe :maxima was on features, or something defined cl-user::run? 14:05:32 KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.238.159] has joined #lisp 14:06:31 well i have maxima in features or as a package loaded when i run my executable sbcl image 14:06:36 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.134.161] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:07:24 hmmm, ok for the image it works then, since cl-user::run is available there 14:07:45 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:07:51 and that was my intent to run cl-user::run only when maxima is in the features or loaded as package 14:09:10 yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.52.116] has joined #lisp 14:09:44 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.52.116] has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:45 tcr [~tcr@host176.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:10:06 Tippenein [~chatzilla@97.65.218.14] has joined #lisp 14:10:50 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 14:12:03 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:13:26 hmm, ok the #+maxima things now works for both the executable image and sbcl 14:14:02 no, it does not work, sorry 14:14:11 i only got to the sbcl prompt in the image 14:14:16 eheh 14:14:25 but cl-user::run was not run 14:14:27 of course 14:14:43 so there's something flaky about features detection 14:14:59 #+ is for not running it 14:15:01 afaik 14:15:03 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:15:08 and #- is for running it 14:15:59 but when i have a #-maxima and run sbcl i got the other problem that cl-user::run is not defined error now 14:16:17 and the image works with #-maxima (cl-user::run) 14:17:51 pnq [~nick@ACA5A098.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:23:15 talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has joined #lisp 14:23:41 Vejeta [~user@unaffiliated/vejeta] has joined #lisp 14:24:41 -!- tcr [~tcr@host176.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:24:50 -!- talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:25:36 talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has joined #lisp 14:26:36 #-maxima foo should have foo if maxima is not in *features*. 14:26:46 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:37 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:28:43 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.44.41] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:06 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:35:10 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 14:35:29 -!- rookievoice [~user@hoas-fe3ddd00-245.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 14:37:30 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.238.159] has left #lisp 14:40:38 KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.238.159] has joined #lisp 14:42:45 ok it seems actually maxima is not in the *features* list even when maxima package is loaded 14:42:54 so... 14:43:07 maybe it's not a feature 14:43:16 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44:03 got around it with #-maxima (if (find-package :maxima) (cl-user::run)) 14:45:10 lichtblau: should be, yes. I just didn't feel like having yet another magic address. 14:47:04 tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:49:15 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has joined #lisp 14:50:54 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.238.159] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:51:20 KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.238.159] has joined #lisp 14:52:26 ryankask [~ryan_lang@5adb684c.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:29 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:58:26 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d02.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:54 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.238.159] has left #lisp 15:02:10 KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.238.159] has joined #lisp 15:02:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-18.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:03:17 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@114.243.238.159] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:07:00 MoALTz [~no@92.8.152.53] has joined #lisp 15:07:15 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:48 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:08:20 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:56 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:09:25 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:02 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:10:30 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:32 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:10:38 jtza8 [~AndChat@41.19.137.177] has joined #lisp 15:11:22 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA5A098.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:11:47 ontheeasiestway [~ontheeasi@111.194.106.148] has joined #lisp 15:11:51 pkhuong: OK. Dmitry uses a magic address, presumably because thread-local-ness isn't needed. And the issue on x86 is that there is no thread-base-tn (without using nyef's patch adding it). 15:12:38 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:12:42 -!- jtza8 [~AndChat@41.19.137.177] has left #lisp 15:13:08 Perhaps the guard page should just sit in the sbcl binary to avoid manual parms tuning. 15:13:20 jtza8 [~AndChat@41.19.137.177] has joined #lisp 15:14:06 would that be ok with windows? 15:15:08 -!- ontheeasiestway [~ontheeasi@111.194.106.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:40 -!- tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:19:08 loke [~elias@bb121-6-220-56.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:23:10 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:24:30 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-126-7.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:39 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:54 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:26:54 series features were dropped between CLtL2 and the final spec? 15:27:17 weren't they in the appendix? 15:27:27 yeah, they were. 15:27:31 App A 15:27:50 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CCD8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:28:00 that suggests that they never were in 15:28:10 ahh. okay. 15:28:52 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:29:53 I hope so... (I'm not entirely clear on the aggressiveness ASLR of exe files on 64 bit Windows; the only other issue would be if memory protection couldn't be changed for parts of the exe, but that would surprise me.) 15:29:55 a friend of mine was working through the late chapters in PAIP and was confused; first thing I found was the 2nd addition ref 15:29:59 "X3J13 expressed interest in the other two approaches (series and generators), but the consensus as of January 1989 was that these other approaches were not yet sufficiently mature or in sufficiently widespread use to warrant inclusion in the draft Common Lisp standard at that time." 15:30:09 s/add/ed 15:30:11 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl20-196-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:30:32 thanks, stassats 15:30:54 richard waters distributes series as a lib. 15:31:15 still? 15:31:24 it's in quicklisp. 15:31:29 so, I'll go with 'yes' 15:32:01 huangho [~vitor@201-66-151-116.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:32:08 i thought it was maintained by someone else 15:33:21 i haven't read through the code, or commits, but his name is all over the sourceforge page. 15:35:36 i guess it could be an historical artifact. 15:35:38 *Fade* shrugs 15:35:56 well, he's the author 15:36:51 macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.105.194] has joined #lisp 15:40:47 perhaps it's a shark; done evolving. 15:41:34 morning 15:42:13 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl20-196-6.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:42:17 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:54 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl22-75-103.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:43:56 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:44:48 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 15:47:54 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 15:48:11 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:49:05 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 15:49:54 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:54:46 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:47 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:56:27 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 15:56:46 morning 15:56:48 ontheeasiestway [~ontheeasi@111.194.106.148] has joined #lisp 15:56:48 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:48 hi all. in this code http://pastebin.ca/2052272 why do you need funcall... why can't you just do (fn ...)? 15:58:07 <_3b> because that's how CL works 15:58:17 <_3b> schme doesn't need it 15:58:25 <[df]> ryankask: CL has separate namespaces for functions and variables 15:58:54 [df]: ah okay... the big debate he mentioned early in practice... thanks! 15:59:10 Geef [~Geef@32.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:07 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:01:37 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 16:01:53 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:02:57 *_3b* wonders how hard it would be to add a 'loading finished took x seconds" to slime to go with the compilation finished message 16:03:52 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 16:06:17 don't forget a followup 'and after loading, 10*x seconds were wasted using compilation note collection in emacs' message 16:06:44 heh 16:08:22 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-25-37.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:08:32 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-126-7.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:10:33 Hmm... Is FORMAT control strings turing-complete? 16:14:08 *_3b* thinks not quite (unless you count ~//) 16:15:00 <_3b> not completely sure though, might be able to store enough state in arg position or column or somethin 16:15:06 -!- Buganini [~buganini@2001:288:c237:0:dead:beef:cafe:babe] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:15:13 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-70-23-71-96.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:20 hmm 16:15:36 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 16:16:09 I have much to learn w.r.t. FORMAT 16:16:29 format deserves a book. 16:16:29 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C51B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:40 "the FORMAT programming language" 16:16:51 By the way, is it just me or has there been a slight increase in Lisp interest in the world lately (the last year or so) 16:17:29 Buganini [~buganini@2001:288:c237:0:dead:beef:cafe:babe] has joined #lisp 16:17:34 I think clojure has probably got people looking at lisp who wouldn't have otherwise. 16:18:37 And forced some lispers to tussle with Java. ;) 16:18:47 Quicklisp has helped a bit too, although I have no idea how much. I can only speak for myself when I say that it's thanks to QL that my 20-year old closet interest in CL has lbossomed into me actually doing real stuff with it. 16:19:21 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C51B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:50 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-70-23-71-96.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:20:08 I ended up doing some maintenance on an old system a few days ago that has no network; i hadn't realised how integrated QL had become in my environment until then. 16:20:43 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:14 that would be nice to hear, although my personal impression (which could be wrong) is that Lisp really gained in popularity during the 00s, but peaked a few years ago. 16:21:37 I don't actually know if there's a serious surge in lisp interest. sometimes I think so. 16:21:53 that negative essay about lisp last week makes me think so. 16:22:04 You mean "the lisp curse"? 16:22:09 negative ? 16:22:09 yeah 16:22:13 as a programming language becomes more powerful it becomes more lisp-like :> 16:22:17 why negative ? what did it say ? 16:22:31 yeah, that one was funny. In a smewhat un-funny way 16:22:41 "Peak Lisp": it's not a question of "if", but "when" 16:22:42 homie: in short "programming in lisp is easy, so people aren't forced to cooperate, so it's a very fractured world" 16:23:00 its basic premise is that lisp programmers are antisocial non-team players who can have a negative impact on any project because of a serious culture of "not invented here" 16:23:02 hmmmm 16:23:28 Fade: good summary. You explained it better than the sentence I was trying to write 16:23:38 it references 'the bi-polar lisp programmer' 16:23:55 lol, oh my 16:24:03 Geef_ [~Geef@32.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:16 i think that kind of negative commentary is really only afforded languages getting attention, but it may just be a pet peeve for the author. 16:24:28 his argument is somewhat suggesting that since it' 16:24:55 his argument is somewhat suggesting that since it's so easy to do anything in Lisp, no one will build infrastructure that others can use (since they only build it for themselves) 16:25:17 which ties in to the argument "lisp doesn't have enough ready-to-use code lying around" 16:25:21 at any rate, it came along at a very bad time, because my company was making an implementation proposal in common lisp and their in-house geeks started railing against it about four minutes after it was delivered, referencing that essay. 16:25:25 Fade: fair enough, but if it was just a pet-peeve, why did the article gain so much attention? 16:25:45 because the lisp world is a small world? 16:26:00 -!- Geef [~Geef@32.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:26:06 Landr: I saw it mentioned in three places, only one of which is Lisp-related 16:26:11 1: comp.lang.lisp 16:26:15 -!- Geef_ is now known as Geef 16:26:16 2: My boss qouted it 16:26:24 3: Hacker News 16:26:46 skalawag [~user@c75-111-9-153.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:05 complete bullshit, if they even have lisp software in bio-scanners etc...... 16:27:19 it resonated with the victims of #lisp 16:27:29 *Fade* laughs 16:27:36 stassats may have a point. 16:27:40 <_3b> people want an excuse to not know lisp? 16:27:42 if you want to use it use it, no need for useless comments.... 16:27:46 lol 16:27:46 Speaking of that, is AutoCad still using Lisp? 16:27:59 _3b: exactly 16:28:13 anyhow, the ring leader of the anti-lisp faction on tht proposal was the guy who squandered 2/3's of the time budge for this project already trying to deliver the software in java. 16:28:26 Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:47 so I think it'll be fine, still, the timing was bad. 16:28:56 loke: yes 16:28:59 if he is into bureacracy...who knows 16:29:03 lol 16:29:37 loke: It still does. 16:29:39 some people have an internal dissonance: somebody authoritative claims that lisp is great, but they can't or don't want to grok it 16:29:59 so they need to confirm that they're not stupid or not missing out on anything 16:30:00 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-141-209-189.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:30 well, there's also the fact that it forces programmers with a certain bag of tricks to rearrange the way they think about systems. 16:30:47 it isn't like going from java to C# or whatever, where you just have to intern some surface syntax. 16:30:58 jep 16:31:18 so you'll get entrenched chaffing from internal tech people 16:31:35 Fade: arguably you can write C in Lisp, it's just very painful (which is, I suppose, why some people dump it) 16:31:37 particularly from the java/C# crowd you run into in windows heavy environments. 16:31:58 Writing Java in Lisp is harder, as you need to understand CLOS, and once you get to that point you probably already grok Lisp 16:32:45 some people expect immediate gratification 16:33:03 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-129-194.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 16:33:07 -!- littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:33:08 that does not happen even with languages like C/Java.... 16:33:18 only some basic stuff maybe.... 16:33:23 but they forget their previous experiences 16:33:34 Arguably CL gives lots of instant gratification. REPL is easier to experiemnt with 16:34:22 I want *faster* than instant gratification 16:34:23 loke: not when you've got a whole library of cargo-culted idioms you've internalised over 15 or 20 years that you don't even realise you use constantly anymore. 16:34:43 you see this in old school C programmers all the time. 16:35:10 "I don't even have to _think_ to write a system in C!" 16:35:24 Fade: Such as? I mean, I see a lot of horrible practicies all the time, but I usually attribute that to incompetence rather than them being old-school. 16:35:24 I've had that exact line delivered, without irony. 16:35:42 it comes down to what you know. 16:36:03 if some language further up the power-line from lisp came along tomorrow, I'd probably be annoyed, too. :) 16:36:21 good thing that this won't happen anytime soon! 16:36:22 especially if I had upstarts trying to insert it in my environment. 16:36:31 like haskell ? 16:36:36 erm.. 16:36:52 homie: haskell is somewhat wrong in my opinion 16:37:03 in which way ? 16:37:09 it doesn't look like lisp 16:37:32 hmmm, goes some direction unknown ? 16:37:42 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:37:45 homie: trying to impose a "pure" functional paradigm on something that is inherently imperative. 16:37:55 ah you mean that ok 16:38:11 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:44 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:38:53 Don't take me wrong. I really appreaciate functional concepts. In fact, I love it. However, I don't take it on some kind of misguided quest in search of "purity" 16:39:01 well, there remains only prolog then..... 16:39:21 I did some Prolog way back... Let's see... Late 80's 16:39:26 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:39 monads are pretty swell 16:39:49 <_3b> beach: one of the errors in NTH claims to be NTHCDR instead of NTH 16:39:51 I never liked it. However, I could see its beauty :-) 16:40:04 but lisp subsumes them successfully, so I don't know that hackell is further up the power-line from lisp. 16:40:08 erlang may be. 16:40:26 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:40:28 hmmm, i never saw erlang syntax nor program nor code i mean 16:40:31 Fade: erlang is interesting too, but they also somewhat suffer from purefunctionalitis 16:40:35 s/saw/seen/ 16:40:54 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 loke: well, I guess. they win some pretty impressive stuff 'for free' as a result. 16:41:23 anyhow, i think we're off topic 16:42:00 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:42:08 Hey, I'm swedish. If I didn't root for Erlang I'd be considered an enemy of the state or something :-) 16:42:19 erlang is very clever 16:42:24 it's also very lispy. 16:42:36 a little too 'bondage and discipline' for me. 16:42:45 but they did solve that multiprocessing problem. 16:42:49 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:42:54 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:04 Once thing that frustrated me when learning Erlang is that I can't define functions from the repl 16:43:25 a repl is a roving side effect. 16:43:36 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@58.230.108.42] has joined #lisp 16:44:04 Fade: I have no idea what you meant by that, but I'm still going to agree with you :-) 16:45:31 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:56 spacemanaki [~spacemana@cpe-68-175-63-237.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:09 joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has joined #lisp 16:52:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-25-37.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: quit] 16:54:07 -!- spacemanaki [~spacemana@cpe-68-175-63-237.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: spacemanaki] 16:54:11 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:58:52 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:00:26 naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-36-2.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:03:03 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:13 how can I give several arguments to (princ ? 17:05:23 naiv: (princ (list 1 2 3)) 17:05:52 <_3b> (mapcar 'princ '(1 2 3)) 17:05:52 naiv: remember, this is LISP = LISt Processing. 17:06:01 -!- Tippenein [~chatzilla@97.65.218.14] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 17:06:11 pjb, I tried that but then I got some parenthesis 17:06:27 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-179-47-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:06:52 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-47-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:55 Then what _3b says. 17:06:55 <_3b> actually, i guess mapc would be better there 17:07:39 yes, but I worth knowing that u professionals use both :) thank you 17:07:47 (mapc (function princ) (list 1 " " 2 ", " 3 "!")) 17:07:48 s/I/it 17:07:50 *_3b* would have used format 17:07:57 naiv: we'd use format. 17:08:07 -!- joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:08:27 oh right, I read about format yesterday and forgot it till then 17:08:27 (format t "~@{~A~^, ~}.~%" 1 2 3) 17:08:30 *_3b* only uses princ and variants for debugging when i want to wrap it around something and returmn the original value as well 17:09:02 or: (format t "~{~A~^, ~}.~%" (list 1 2 3)) 17:09:12 *_3b* should probably use trace for most of those cases though 17:10:02 ok, I gonna play with those functions 17:10:25 TippenEin [~chatzilla@97.65.218.3] has joined #lisp 17:10:29 thanks again 17:11:59 -!- ryankask [~ryan_lang@5adb684c.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:13:39 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-142-199-74.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:24 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:38 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host162-186-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:44 huangho_ [~vitor@201-34-97-229.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:26:16 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d02.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-208.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:27:29 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 17:28:14 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-66-151-116.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:28:46 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:37 paul0 [~user@189.114.207.25.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:30:08 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:30:46 jmbr [~jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:31:48 <_3b> hmm, 67% in getf, 12% in sb-impl::%putf... may be time to stop using plists :/ 17:33:13 Or may be time to start doing something more interesting with the data you get from plists... 17:33:48 <_3b> not sure what else i'd do with a compilation environment than compile stuff 17:33:58 -!- Geef [~Geef@32.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Error: Out of Cheese] 17:34:14 Determine that it's useless to compile because the result will be 42 in all cases? 17:34:26 *_3b* is pretty sure it isn't 17:34:35 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:34:49 Of course it is, it's the answer to the big question of the Universe, Life and Everything! 17:35:14 <_3b> right, but thats an /answer/ not a /result/ :p 17:37:41 <_3b> also, it is only an answer to 'Everything' in aggregate, not to individual 'something's, so i would need to verify which was being asked 17:38:13 *_3b* suspects determining that would run into the halting problem 17:40:50 -!- ontheeasiestway [~ontheeasi@111.194.106.148] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 17:41:24 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 17:42:59 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:45 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:44:29 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:46 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:52:13 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 17:54:26 Bah. If I have a .so file I just built on OS X, where the heck do I put it so CFFI can find it? 17:55:40 hello. i fear i overlook sth very very obvious: (let ((a *special-one*)) (setf (get 'a test) t) (symbol-plist 'a)) -> (test t), fine, but (symbol-plist '*special-one*) -> nil. how do i have to handle 'a within the let in order to set the symbol a is refering to? 17:56:25 s/set/modify the plist of the 17:56:33 <_3b> did you want '*special-one* and (get a ...) ? 17:57:05 <_3b> since you intialize a to the value of the special, then ignore it and use the quoted symbol A instad of the variable A 17:57:08 ButtholeSurfer [~leonardof@187.38.18.242] has joined #lisp 17:57:23 -!- ButtholeSurfer [~leonardof@187.38.18.242] has left #lisp 17:58:10 _3b: hm, i mean, how can i set the plist from an argument to a function (defun xxx (a) (setf (get 'a test) t))? 17:58:28 <_3b> what do you pass to a function? 17:58:40 (xxx *special-one*) 17:58:46 Using 'a means you're setting the plist of the a symbol, not the symbol that's actually in the variable a. 17:59:03 <_3b> so you want to modify the symbol *special-one* or a symbol named by the variable *special-one*? 17:59:25 Bike: right, how can i set the plist of the symbol within 'a? 17:59:38 Lose the quote. 17:59:46 <_3b> A is the only symbol "within" 'a 18:00:09 <_3b> 'a is (QUOTE A), quote returns it's argument, in this case the symbol A 18:00:22 <_3b> if you want to use a variable, don't quote it 18:00:35 hm. i would like to do (xxx *special-one*) and then (symbol-plist *special-one) -> (test t) 18:01:26 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-71-146-156-81.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:26 <_3b> then store (defun xxx (a) (setf (get a test) t)), (setf *special-one* '*special-one*) an it should work 18:01:45 <_3b> or do (xxx '*special-one*) or make xxx a macro 18:01:47 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:02:12 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:26 <_3b> there is no way to tell where a particular value was stored though, so a function can't go from a value back to a symbol naming a variable that happened to have been storing that value 18:02:28 _3b: thanks, 18:04:01 tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:04:07 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:05:12 i think the only way to circumvent using a macro is (in my case) to give 2 parameters, one for the value and one for the name (defun invert-it (volume volume-name) (... inverting) (setf (get volume-name inverted-p) t)) -- thanks 18:06:48 Bronsa [~brace@host130-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:09:18 *trebor_dki* thinks, that deep inside his brain there is still a black nuclues of basic lisp-misunderstanding which makes him shy of macros ;) 18:09:40 *_3b* would say so, from that conversation :) 18:10:04 <_3b> (and exactly the sort that would cause problems with macros too) 18:10:42 one can rebind specials 18:10:54 in lexical scope 18:11:15 are you sure? 18:11:25 one cannot rebind lexicals, specials are the only one's which can be rebound 18:11:38 ok 18:12:14 <_3b> you can rebind them because they have dynamic scope, not lexical scope 18:12:22 right 18:12:33 *_3b* isn't sure 'rebind' is correct/useful term though 18:12:56 well only variables have value, not symbols 18:13:01 <_3b> you can create a new binding with dynamic scope, but you can create a new lexical binding too 18:13:43 perhaps you wanted to say that the new binding will have dynamic extent? 18:13:48 pnq [~nick@AC8294AC.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:55 <_3b> it is just that you can't see other lexical scopes from a particular access, but you can see different dynamic scopes depending on how it was called 18:16:34 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:17:25 dynamic scope is temporary extent and global scope not ? 18:18:19 indefinite extent and temporary extent i know only, what do you refer to with dynamic extent then ? 18:18:32 -!- tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:18:35 how do I pass a text file stram to a string? 18:18:54 closure ? 18:19:02 <_3b> paul0: strings are not functions to which you can pass things, maybe rephrase the question? 18:19:09 homie: http://www.ida.liu.se/imported/cltl/clm/node43.html 18:19:24 *_3b* guesses with-output-to-string though 18:19:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-208.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:19:38 _3b: I want to open a text file stream, and put its content into a variable 18:19:56 hm, I'll read about this with-output-to-string 18:20:02 <_3b> maybe alexandria:read-file-into-string ? 18:20:33 <_3b> that takes a filename rather than a stream though 18:20:45 that would be easier 18:20:49 ok got it 18:22:08 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8294AC.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:03 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:23:13 _3b: file-streams are pathname designators 18:24:54 Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:25:15 Blkt [~user@net-93-145-56-141.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 18:25:19 gigamonkey: LD_LIBRARY_PATH 18:27:35 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.228.103] has joined #lisp 18:35:56 pjb: turns out ~/lib also works. 18:37:05 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.79.6] has joined #lisp 18:37:34 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.77] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:43:22 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 18:45:11 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:45:13 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Client Quit] 18:45:31 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-145-56-141.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:48:57 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:53:57 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-5.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:57:43 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-5.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 18:59:52 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:01 what do you think the quickest/simplest way to represtent a DAG is? list of lists or hash table 19:00:07 probably hash table 19:00:11 thanks =] 19:01:24 The question is meaningless. 19:01:34 Aren't they all? 19:01:45 Most often, yes. 19:01:56 The question is how do you want to use it? 19:02:23 unhygienix [~unhygieni@host86-135-59-30.range86-135.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:12 For example, if you want to enumerate paths from the root to the leaves, then a list of paths (represented as list perhaps) would be the quickest and simpliest way to represent it. 19:03:35 I'm going to implement a sort of class inheritance structure, resolving which function to use based on the type of an object, but the structure can change with the context, its just an experiment 19:03:37 ((a b c) (a d e) (a d f) (a g)) 19:04:28 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:04:50 the heap is a graph already. 19:04:52 derekv: then when you create/modify a class, you usually only specific the superclasses, that is, you have only an edge (or a set of edges). Then the quickest and simpliest way to represent the dag, for the addition or suppression of a class, might be a list of edges. 19:05:09 There are several ways to represent graphs, we're choosing one... 19:05:45 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.211] has joined #lisp 19:05:50 But then, when you want to resolve a method, you need another structure to do it quickly and simply. 19:06:31 Simple first, quick later. It may not even end up being useful. 19:07:19 Then just keeping the list of the superclasses with each class might be the simpliest way. Just use a class method to find the method. 19:07:41 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-71-146-156-81.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:07:42 Vinnipeg [~sa1vador@pppoe-88-147-207-231.san.ru] has joined #lisp 19:08:41 derekv: the simplest way I can think of to store that information (assuming single dispatch) is simply to let each class include a mapping from each generic's name to the actual method. 19:08:50 (defun find-method (class message) (or (get-method class method) (some (function find-method) (super-classes class)))) 19:08:53 is simple enough... 19:09:09 I don't even assume single dispatch. 19:09:31 (function find-method) --> (lambda (superclass) (find-method superclass method)) 19:09:58 pjb: your example dispatches a message on a single class. I call that single dispatch. 19:10:13 -!- Vinnipeg [~sa1vador@pppoe-88-147-207-231.san.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 19:10:54 I think for now that is sufficient, i mean, my method only resolve on one class. 19:15:51 <_3b> beach: some error messages in GETF seem to be missing :name keyword 19:16:23 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-129-194.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:16:28 pkhuong: right. 19:17:33 inklesspen [~jon@inklesspen.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:57 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.219.234] has joined #lisp 19:18:20 Hi all! 19:19:35 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 19:20:15 http://pastebin.com/BH4d9JH4 19:20:25 how do I convert this output to plain text? 19:20:56 bbl thanks for the discussion. 19:22:00 <_3b> paul0: see drakma:*text-content-types* i think 19:22:25 <_3b> paul0: possibly add ("application" . "xml") to it 19:23:17 erm, when passing floating point values around across multiple compilation units is fundamentally inefficient in sbcl, how does it look like in other implementations then ? 19:24:02 homie: the same. 19:24:14 hmm ok 19:24:30 -!- zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:27:32 -!- TippenEin [~chatzilla@97.65.218.3] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 19:27:34 -!- emma is now known as em 19:30:30 paul0: (map 'string 'code-char *foo*) may be one way. 19:30:33 ok and why would i get a access denied error from a hello.lisp script ? 19:30:40 paul0: the problem is that your question is underspecified. 19:30:47 Intensity [GcftspiTkh@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 19:30:48 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:08 <_3b> pjb: not really, drakma + the url in the request seemed enough context to me 19:31:14 Eg. you could have concerns about the encoding. 19:31:19 what is write-line bound to ? 19:31:19 <_3b> (it returns utf-8 application/xml) 19:31:30 It may return something else: it's dynamic! 19:31:31 francogrex [~user@109.130.85.2] has joined #lisp 19:31:54 <_3b> well, drakma knows how to deal with it, just need to tell it you want text instead of octets 19:31:59 ok. 19:32:25 it does not matter if i invoke it from within an emacs eshell or from the console the error is the same ..... 19:32:55 (But I wouldn't trust it, I'd have to check the source. I know other web libraries that purposedly deal with it, but don't (or didn't) do it correctly). 19:33:08 <_3b> (alternately, drakma returns the content-type if you really want to parse that and convert it by hand with babel or something) 19:33:36 all my tty's are owned by me and are in the group tty, only some are owned by root... 19:33:40 <_3b> yeah, drakma does do some annoying things from what i remember... don't know if that was one of them or not 19:33:42 hmmmmm 19:34:26 ok /dev/console is owned by root and in group adm..... 19:34:31 well me is in group adm too.... 19:34:36 i don't get it .... 19:34:40 kewl! Just finished my first useful lisp program 19:34:58 What does 'arithmetic error FLOATING-POINT-OVERFLOW signalled' indicate? I have a general idea but not sure exactly what causes this or how to fix it. 19:35:26 derrida: (* 2.0 most-positive-long-float) 19:35:41 derrida: there may or may be no way to fix it. 19:35:49 thanks for the help, pjb and _3b 19:35:53 hm 19:35:56 derrida: if you're using single-float, then using double-float or long-float may help. 19:36:30 <_3b> you might be able to disable float traps and get meaningless return values instead of an error if that helps 19:36:35 derrida: but if you're already using long-float, then your only chance is to change the algorithm. For example, instead of * and expt, you could use + and * (using the log of the values). 19:37:05 urandom__ [~user@p548A4BF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:14 <_3b> (or use clisp and make the long-floats bigger) 19:37:28 off i go :) 19:38:12 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 19:38:25 ASau [~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:39:38 -!- naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-36-2.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:43:14 derrida: you can show our algorithm maybe we can see where you can change a few things 19:44:22 most implementation of algorithms would use much less than CL's 'extremes' (thinking of R) 19:44:58 naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-34-65.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:45:06 -!- jtza8 [~AndChat@41.19.137.177] has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:46:56 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-208.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:48:23 wzergw [~hynek@ip-62-245-66-12.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:49:29 hm, when I try to load my program using sbcl --script, it doesn't load quicklisp 19:49:41 shouldn't 19:49:44 that's ok 19:49:48 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:55 but i can't get it to print anything... 19:50:02 can you somehow use shell variables? 19:50:11 get access denied errors somehow.... 19:50:20 don't know with what account it runs it 19:50:34 homie: use print and finish-output 19:50:37 homie: access denied? 19:50:41 yes 19:51:01 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-9-153.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 19:51:11 does it use /dev/console ? 19:51:17 for stdin/stdout ? 19:53:04 write-line command not found error 19:53:13 with bash hello.lisp 19:53:36 and with ./hello.lisp access denied error 19:53:38 zenlunatic [~justin@c-68-48-40-231.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:13 ah 19:55:21 chmod +x hello.lisp did the trick 19:55:24 eheh 19:55:38 oh man, i wouldn't have thought of that 19:55:47 pnq [~nick@ACA26DB9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:19 well it still does not work.... 19:56:32 i get debugger output rather than a "hello lisp" 19:57:08 wait, i had a typo 19:57:26 ah now, wohooo got it running man, puuh 19:59:07 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 20:00:59 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 20:01:32 boiantz [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 20:03:19 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-103-84.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:58 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-68-75.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04:38 Jasko [~tjasko@24.249.87.250] has joined #lisp 20:05:17 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:08:06 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:12 me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-235-152.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:34 -!- rme [rme@clozure-D0DF58FC.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 20:08:34 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-113-163.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 20:10:47 tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:14:35 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:15:09 salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:40 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:19:25 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:21:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-208.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:23:03 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@58.230.108.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:36 Geef [~Geef@32.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:40 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-183-125.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:40 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-183-125.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:25:40 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:33:51 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA26DB9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:27 bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.85.83] has joined #lisp 20:42:19 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 20:43:10 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:44:51 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0074.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 20:44:56 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:34 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 20:47:08 -!- naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-34-65.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:48:35 -!- negaduck [~negaduck@85.202.112.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:49:32 here i have a question about &rest. How would I selectively modify one argument of the list while still keeping it generic. my example code: http://francogrex.byethost2.com 20:50:30 <_3b> (cons (* (car args) 2) (cdr args))? 20:50:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:54 <_3b> * k rather 20:51:26 <_3b> modifying something in the middle is a bit more work, but same basic idea, just build a new list with the new values :p 20:51:30 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:51:42 ah, need to 'reconstruct' the list; and if a new function foo-2 is called with only one arg ? 20:52:27 I'm working on memoization and now I want to reset the closure(or whatever, I'm new at this concepts), how can I do this without restarting the slime REPL? 20:52:49 make a new closure. 20:53:09 xale: how? 20:53:20 the same way you made the first one. 20:53:54 xale: here's my code http://paste.pocoo.org/show/380898/ I have no idea how can I make a new closure 20:54:40 evaluate this code again, it will redefine the function. 20:55:39 _3b: your idea works. even if i have (defun foo-2 (larg) (* (car larg) 7)) it will ignore the cdr in (cons (* (car args) 2) (cdr args)) so ok :) 20:55:42 You could put another function within the let scope that calls clrhash, too, if you wanted. 20:55:47 xale: Run time: 0.001 sec. I don't think it redefined it 20:56:03 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5B0C51B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:34 i'm pretty sure it did. but you can unbind it and evaluate the code again to be sure. 20:56:35 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:56:44 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d02.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:48 francogrex: the point is that the parameter given by &rest may be a literal list. So you should not modify it. 20:57:21 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:37 francogrex: when you receive a &rest parameters, you probably want to use it with APPLY, not FUNCALL... 20:58:07 *_3b* might also say in that case it should be a required arg not part of the &rest 20:59:52 -!- boiantz [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has left #lisp 21:00:10 -!- tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:00:25 naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-111-48.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:00:34 tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:02:23 negaduck [~negaduck@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 21:03:35 -!- me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-235-152.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:04:31 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 21:06:34 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host130-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:06:53 hmm, I can't use a required arg because the number varies depending on which function is called, actually your idea works see: http://francogrex.byethost2.com I am not sure how I would modify that to use apply instead (thinking)... 21:07:07 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has left #lisp 21:09:46 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@24.249.87.250] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:11:31 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:04 -!- naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-111-48.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:16:33 What's the difference between, say, (lambda (x) x) and #'(lambda (x) x) ? (Motivation: in the "Collections" chapter of Practical Common Lisp, the author uses the latter case to pass the lambda function to the maphash function, but it works the other way for me too.) 21:17:21 <_3b> (lambda ...) evaluates to (function (lambda ...)) 21:17:34 <_3b> #'(lambda ...) reads as (function (lambda ...)) 21:17:44 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:49 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0074.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:17:50 <_3b> so in a context where it is evaluated, they are effectively the same 21:18:31 <_3b> (unless you make an effort to distinguish them, like with *macroexpand-hook* or something) 21:19:02 <_3b> if a context where it would not be evaluated, #'(lambda ...) has (function ) added to it 21:19:03 _3b: thanks, this makes sense (even though I can't imagine a context where this would be different yet) :) 21:19:23 <_3b> well, quoting it is a trivial example 21:19:26 ((lambda (x) ...) 42) 21:19:35 pnq [~nick@ACA310B6.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:35 sure 21:19:38 -!- ncow [~ncow@unaffiliated/necrocow] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:19:42 you can't substitute #'(lambda ...) there. It's a special case. 21:19:55 ncow [~ncow@bujumbura.dreamhost.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:59 Ok, I get that. Thanks a lot :) 21:19:59 <_3b> well, that is actually a 3rd case 21:20:30 <_3b> it has special evaluation rules, so it turns into a function without expanding into (function ...) 21:20:37 -!- superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: superjudge] 21:33:57 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-155-107.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:34:31 Actually, thinking of it, it still is not completely clear to me. How come I can't call (mapcar 1+ (list 1 2 3)) but I can do (mapcar (lambda (x) (1+ x)) (list 1 2 3)) ? Maybe I'm missing some basics. 21:34:53 <_3b> lambda is a macro that expands to (function (lambda ...)) 21:34:54 wzergw: the whole point of lisp is to make it as easily to write code as data, to have them written exactly the same, but to still distinguish them.. 21:35:29 <_3b> if 1+ were a variable containing a function, you could write (mapcar 1+ ...) 21:35:32 wzergw: it is therefore important to be able to imagine those contexts where things are data, and where things are code to be evaluated! 21:35:48 If you can't imagine that, then you can't grok lisp! 21:35:54 <_3b> or if there were only 1 namespace for functions and variables in scheme, you could (but you couldn't name a variable list without overwriting the function list) 21:35:57 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #lisp 21:36:44 wzergw: again, in (mapcar (lambda (x) (1+ x)) (list 1 2 3)), the lambda expression is evaluated producing the expression (function (lambda (x) (1+ x))), which is evaluated producing a function. 21:37:04 On the other hand, in (mapcar 1+ (list 1 2 3)), 1+ is evaluated, but has no value, so it's an error. 21:37:08 -!- ncow [~ncow@bujumbura.dreamhost.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:37:11 And since mapcar expects a function... 21:37:27 (mapcar (function 1+) (list 1 2 3)) is good. 21:38:21 Well, mapcar expects a function designator. It can take also a symbol naming a global function. So you could call it as (mapcar (quote 1+) (list 1 2 3)) too. 21:39:05 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-70-23-71-96.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:06 (mapcar #'1+ (list 1 2 3)) 21:39:38 even this is ok? (mapcar '1+ (list 1 2 3)) 21:39:56 pjb, _3b: thank you, I will have to think about it for a while 21:40:01 <_3b> francogrex: those read as pjb's examples 21:40:08 oh man they have so many bits unused in the intel register specs, why do they need more space for a float than a machine word ? 21:40:11 pjb: ok I didn't read what you just posted 21:40:24 yes yes i know 21:41:21 because the machine word is too small? 21:41:40 Anyone want to kick the tires on a bcrypt lib. https://github.com/gigamonkey/monkeylib-bcrypt 21:42:12 stassats: is it the case that other programming languages have the same problem ? 21:43:22 So, lambda expands to (function (lambda...)) if it is on an "operand" position, yet doesn't expand when it is positioned as an operator, is that so? 21:43:32 <_3b> homie: are you asking why CL implementations box floats? 21:44:07 _3b: well i know they do, i ask if other languages do the same ! 21:44:12 wzergw: no. lambda is a macro, so an expression (lambda ...) is macroexpanded. The lambda macro returns a (function (lambda ...)) form. 21:44:23 wzergw: this happens any time the lambda expression is evaluated.d 21:44:27 <_3b> wzergw: right, but there are special rules for ((lambda ..) ...) that make it work anyway 21:44:28 and suffer the same efficiency penalty 21:44:43 *_3b* must have parsed the question differently from pjb 21:44:55 wzergw: notably, if the lambda expression is passed to a macro, as an parameter that is not evaluated, then it is not evaluated therefore not macro expanded. 21:45:01 Well, I tried ((function (lambda (x y) (+ x y))) 1 2), and it doesn't work 21:45:12 That's why I thought it isn't expanded there :) 21:45:20 <_3b> wzergw: right, 'operator' position has special rules 21:45:22 wzergw: that' because the operator in applications IS NOT evaluated. 21:45:27 wzergw: why don't you read a tutorial? 21:45:47 pjb: ok, will do that. Sorry for dumb questions. 21:46:22 wzergw: It's not dumb, but it's trivial. However, it's a distinguishing feature of Common Lisp, vs. eg. scheme. 21:46:45 <_3b> (and just to clarify my earlier answer, pjb is right that some forms do not evaluate all their arguments, in which case (lambda ...) would not expand to (function (lambda ...)) ) 21:46:52 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@p5B0C51B6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:47:01 In Scheme, (e1 e2 ... en) evaluates all the expressions ei, (in any order), and if the result of e1 is a function then it's called (otherwise it's an error). 21:47:46 In Common Lisp, (f e1 ... en) evaluates e1 to en from left to right, and takes f as the name of a function without evaluating it. (before or after evaluating the arguments though). 21:47:47 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-56.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:49:02 ncow [~ncow@bujumbura.dreamhost.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:12 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.85.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:27 homie: yes, they do 21:52:37 oh ok 21:52:52 provided that we're talking about dynamic languages 21:53:01 -!- huangho_ [~vitor@201-34-97-229.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:53:02 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:53:05 it sounds like only lisp family programming languages suffer that penalty from the manual somehow... 21:53:16 that's why i asked 21:54:53 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 21:55:18 <_3b> homie: they don't need more than a machine word for a float, they just don't have a full machine word available in general 21:55:26 Jasko [~tjasko@24.249.87.250] has joined #lisp 21:55:56 <_3b> (another alternative would be to just chop off a few bits from the float, i think some language implementations do that, not sure if any CLs do though) 21:57:47 i see ok 21:58:50 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@24.249.87.250] has quit [Client Quit] 21:59:04 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:20 nathanael [~nathanael@cable-86-56-104-170.cust.telecolumbus.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:24 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-54-44.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:01:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:01:25 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 22:01:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-54-44.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:01:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:01:48 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 22:01:58 -!- nathanael [~nathanael@cable-86-56-104-170.cust.telecolumbus.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:02:24 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:40 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-70-23-71-96.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 22:05:10 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-142-199-74.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:06:23 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 22:06:35 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-142-199-74.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:31 phua [~phua@adsl-99-63-93-4.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:47 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 22:11:40 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@31.141.85.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:11:46 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:15 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:14:09 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-238.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:15:59 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:16:26 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-56.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:16:46 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:49 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:40 BrokenCog [~bc@pool-108-18-168-167.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:40 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-142-199-74.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:23 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-142-199-74.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:24 -!- vert2_ [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-fmyupumtzzgcyney] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:29:25 superflit [~superflit@174-16-124-68.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:30 -!- superflit [~superflit@174-16-124-68.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:30:42 Good morning everyone! 22:30:47 superflit [~superflit@174-16-124-68.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:57 beach: morning 22:31:17 <_3b> beach: check logs for random comments on sicl cons-high stuff 22:31:37 _3b: Will do. Thanks. 22:34:04 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-142-199-74.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:36:16 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:36:41 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@2.81.208.130] has joined #lisp 22:38:37 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.219.234] has quit [Quit: Zzz] 22:39:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-208.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:49 <_3b> beach: is the test |set-difference test=eq key=other 3| relying on small integers being EQ? 22:40:21 If so, it is unintentional. 22:40:40 *_3b* isn't quite following it well enough to tell what it is doing 22:40:55 I'll check it out. 22:41:26 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-142-199-74.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:18 <_3b> (not that i'm getting the right answer in that case either) 22:43:47 -!- unhygienix [~unhygieni@host86-135-59-30.range86-135.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: unhygienix] 22:45:42 _3b: You are right. That is definitely a problem with some of the tests. 22:46:09 No wait! I don't think so. 22:46:56 *_3b* replaces the test function with something that prints out the args before comparing them :p 22:47:12 -!- tcr [~tcr@host187.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:47:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:47:25 _3b: The test constructs lists. The elements of those lists are other lists, and those are the elements used for comparison. 22:47:38 <_3b> with :key #'car? 22:47:38 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:48:01 Hmm. No I guess not *blush*. 22:49:46 tcr [~tcr@host176.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:05 OK, I'll look into that later. I need to do some other stuff first. Thanks for spotting that. 22:51:11 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 22:52:27 -!- tcr [~tcr@host176.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:52:49 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:54:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:38 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 22:55:31 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 23:00:21 <_3b> ah, set-difference uses hash tables sometimes, guess that would explain it not working, since i don't have proper hash tables 23:01:41 Yes, when the test is one that is supported by one of the standard tests of hash tables, and the product of the length of the lists is sufficiently large, then a hash table is used. 23:01:50 But there is a configurable constant there somewhere. 23:02:39 <_3b> yeah, reasonable thing to do, just hadn't noticed it was doing it 23:03:06 *_3b* would have expected it to work with numbers though 23:04:27 What do you mean? 23:05:17 <_3b> the flash class i'm using to fake hash tables for now should work on numbers 23:05:28 <_3b> (if not quite the same way CL would) 23:05:30 Oh, I see. 23:06:00 <_3b> if i understand right, it should be approximately eq/eql except = for numbers 23:13:35 <_3b> ok, returning nil instead of 'undefined' for missing values seems to work better 23:13:39 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has joined #lisp 23:13:40 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.92] has joined #lisp 23:16:51 <_3b> finished set sicl-cons-tests: 1586 passed, 14 failed,3 errored out of 1603 23:17:15 <_3b> close, probably more passing than it should be though 23:20:31 -!- wzergw [~hynek@ip-62-245-66-12.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:23:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:25:45 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7B66.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:26:38 -!- ncow [~ncow@bujumbura.dreamhost.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:31 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:45 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:33:23 ncow [~ncow@bujumbura.dreamhost.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:25 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:39:31 erider [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/erider] has joined #lisp 23:39:58 does anyone know if there is a framework in lisp for malware analysis? 23:40:28 what's that? 23:41:00 Like looking at worms and stuff? 23:41:58 to analyze malware 23:42:31 Bike: like helminthology? 23:42:41 there are many tools in python to do it. I am wondering if there on some tools to do it in lisp 23:42:42 heh, no 23:43:03 Well, do you mean disassembly, or simulating network spread, or looking for exploits, or what? 23:43:26 yes 23:44:00 So all of them. Why do you want one in Lisp? Wouldn't really matter, except for plugins and the like... 23:44:28 complete analysis of a binary, dll, packets or whatever carries a payload 23:44:35 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 23:44:59 erider: no 23:45:24 xristos: no framework? 23:45:32 a _framework_, i would expect a complete application doing that, not a framework 23:45:52 lisp is the least of your issues i'd expect since the best disassembler (ida) is closed source and pretty expensive 23:46:50 how does one expand the mini buffer to allow the full function signature to be read? I've completely forgot 23:46:54 and it seems that pretty much all of the malware analysis/reveng folks use ida 23:47:09 Guthur: C-c C-d A 23:47:11 lisp can't rip a binary open and regex data 23:47:14 so there is no real incentive for someone to use lisp or write things from scratch 23:47:22 Well, there's a library for looking at ELFs. 23:47:26 stassats, cheers, I knew it had an A in it, hehe 23:48:09 you can set a variable so that it's done automatically, but i find that annoying 23:48:30 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:48:31 xristos: ok thanks, but even ida has python as its scripting engine 23:48:44 it does 23:49:00 well, time to write IDA in lisp 23:49:00 not much to do with lisp though 23:49:00 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:49:06 stassats: heh 23:49:22 xristos: so I guess I need to use python shit 23:49:39 xristos: well thanks for the info 23:49:42 erider: you don't _need_ to use anything 23:49:51 You have to deal with machine code. Python is the least of the unpleasantness... 23:50:06 find something that suits you, if you want to write disassemblers in lisp then so be it 23:51:05 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 23:51:16 xristos I don't have a year to build something 23:52:03 it's more like... a week 23:53:11 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:44 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-174-129.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:24 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-103-84.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:57:52 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 23:59:45 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp