00:00:27 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 00:00:53 -!- seangrov` [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:01:38 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:02:35 wetnosed_ [~kai@f052096215.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:04:24 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e179014144.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:04:25 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:48 lanthan [~ze@p54B7FA90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:07 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 00:08:27 Phoodus, Xach: thanks, i think i've got something working now. 00:09:12 how to make a pair list from a list ? 00:09:20 (by recursion ) 00:09:27 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:09:30 morphism: que? 00:09:40 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:44 morphism: Are you in some programming languages class or something? 00:10:30 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 00:11:22 i don't really like truenames conditions though :-( 00:11:29 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 00:11:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-12-235.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:12:37 If any of you folks happen to favor SBCL, perhaps you could tell me if I am thinking about the "alien" FFI system correctly. From the looks of it, I need only write a declarative description of my C/C++ .h file using the alien system, and the bindings will just work. It would seem at a glance that there's no imperative element involved in binding to C. Or is this not the case? 00:14:04 sbahra_ [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:34 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 00:17:06 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 00:17:58 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:37 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-125-253.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:56 beach [~user@116.118.11.10] has joined #lisp 00:19:56 Good morning everyone! 00:20:39 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-160-243.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 00:21:25 hello beach 00:21:37 sellout, no, i am just building my app 00:22:30 MasterBismuth: that's more or less correct, and use cffi 00:23:47 fe[nl]ix: beg to disagree ;) 00:24:06 MasterBismuth: use cffi unless you have serious reasons not to. 00:24:23 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:24:29 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:25:21 antifuchs: http://heavymetalab.appspot.com/?q=ircsearch 00:26:03 morphism: So why the restriction to recursion? 00:27:06 morphism: And in what way do you want to create the pair of lists from a single list? 00:27:19 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 00:27:42 morphism: Oh, sorry, "a pair list". A list of pairs? How? 00:28:52 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:29:06 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:29:46 pkhuong: ça va sans dire :D 00:30:15 hmm 00:30:26 are there any checklists for when code is "professional" enough? :> 00:30:53 so far i've got: assert every input with possibility to correct, and ... well, lots of checking really 00:31:04 you can cleanly start/stop it, it has documented configuration, doesn't require additional programming to execute it? 00:31:23 rule 1: eschew clever rules? 00:32:39 a user can use it only with knowledge of what it does, not how it works 00:32:44 "professional enough" strongly depends on context. 00:33:32 Take avionics software for example... Or medical software (both for embedded devices and for administration). 00:33:34 good error messages 00:33:47 lots of configurability? 00:33:58 no, just enough to be "appropriate" 00:34:03 hmm 00:34:07 too much configurability is paralyzing 00:34:30 well, i suppose i could do levels of it 00:34:36 sure 00:34:44 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:34:45 "specify a folder if you'd like me to put all files there, or specify every file separately" 00:34:56 lemonodor: ooooh 00:35:09 lemonodor: <3 <3 <3 00:35:12 I believe a good golden rule is the law of least astonishment 00:35:15 beach: Ping? 00:35:38 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:36:25 lemonodor: do you plan on leaving this open to the public? (: 00:36:29 antifuchs: poke around and let me know what you think. i've got #lisp back to 2000 or so, and a little #forth. 00:36:33 antifuchs: yes 00:36:36 awesome! 00:36:44 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:36:46 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 00:36:56 nyef: Yes. 00:37:33 it's still pretty rough. let me know what you think, especially if you have any ideas about rendering logs or search results. 00:37:38 lemonodor: permalinks for IRC - finally (: 00:38:16 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-15-185-57.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:38:18 beach: I've finally settled the whole sheet-region thing in my mind, and my notes contain references to how WinAPI and X treat it, but I'm finding CLIM regions (and CLIM geometry as a whole) to be overdone. 00:38:21 def give the timestamps in logs a hrefs, I would like to just copy the link to a message 00:38:27 (or to a timestamp, actually) 00:38:50 yeah i think that's a good idea 00:38:55 the column rendering looks great. I'm not sure about the background image (-: 00:38:55 antifuchs, lemonodor: We can have context links in lisppaste again? 00:39:19 that's right! 00:39:44 i've even considered trying to make the urls meme-compatible 00:40:04 nyef: Sounds right. I can't stay long now, but please give me the URL to your notes if possible, and I'll read them as soon as I can. 00:40:30 lemonodor: you are a paragon of net citizenship. 00:40:30 beach: I'll put them somewhere soon, then. When would be a good time for us to chat? 00:40:50 lemonodor: Are you taking bug reports? 00:41:09 nyef: 24 hours from now is certainly much better than now if you can. 00:41:11 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:41:22 Xach: yes. one bug i know of: the HTML encoding of links in browse pages is bad. 00:41:31 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 00:41:37 Friday at about 8:45pm it is, then. 00:41:50 lemonodor: I searched for "quicklisp", the link for page 106 is good, the link for 107 is bad (at the bottom) 00:42:22 i just noticed that a few minutes ago. it's missing a "?" in the url for the link for the last numbered result page. 00:43:16 lemonodor: also, there's some javascript magic that lets you transform UTC timestamps into browser-local time 00:43:16 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:43:24 btw you can use lucene query syntax. quicklisp~0.8, that sort of thing. 00:43:33 not sure if that's really a good idea, but might avoid some confusion 00:43:56 *Xach* does not know lucene query syntax 00:44:52 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6141.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:53 [user:xach channel:lisp text:quicklisp] 00:45:10 mmmh, message destructuring. useful. 00:46:18 fribbulous => frabbulous 00:46:23 browsing is powered by s3 and google appengine, so should be able to withstand the coming irc bubble. search is powered by an EC2 micro instance running solr and will be knocked over by a breeze. 00:47:17 is there a browsing directory? I see only the search input field (: 00:47:33 antifuchs: there isn't, because i don't know what it should look like. 00:47:47 oh. hm. 00:47:58 time selection thing & log view (: 00:48:40 just search for lisp ;) 00:48:46 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.204.17] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:48:50 Phoodus: that's what i do :) 00:48:52 yeah, I did (: 00:49:06 but still - some sliding view would be pretty useful, I think 00:49:42 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:10 hi 00:50:11 *Xach* can no longer read that url as anything but "heavy metalab"...damn you mublag 00:51:02 yeah, I was confused initially too 00:51:04 part of this is the idea of a canonical place for well-defined logs. http://code.google.com/p/irc-logs/ 00:51:08 but this is lemonodor - he's heavy meta! 00:51:11 and this is his lab 00:51:12 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@81.193.7.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:51:17 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:51:33 i basically just snarfed nef's logs, added a little metadata and tried to fix text encodings. 00:51:52 he has gaps that i'll look into filling via other sources 00:52:06 when i run this code the slime repl hangs, how a must do it?, http://dropoff.org/jl1j/process-wait-with-timeout+bad thanks 00:52:24 salva_oz: Is that the same as you were discussion earlier? 00:52:44 yes i put this here a few hours ago 00:53:32 you see my error? 00:53:56 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:54:13 No. 00:54:32 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:33 heavy meta :) http://heavymetalab.appspot.com/browse/lisp/2011/03/18#01669 00:54:42 That... doesn't at all fit with my mental model of how a function called "PROCESS-WAIT" would work, but I freely admit that my model may be badly skewed. 00:55:38 is .1 the timeout 00:55:40 is my first process run 00:55:43 yes 00:56:02 but im not sure of nothing 00:56:10 anything 00:56:24 Yeah, the arglist is normally something like (reason timeout scheduler-predicate). 00:56:37 entropax [~entropi@192.55.54.38] has joined #lisp 00:57:02 don't often see floats being used for timeouts 00:57:05 salva_oz: You might check the documentation, I'm not sure the lambda there should block. 00:57:17 but maybe I just don't get out enough 00:57:20 yes it works with counters 00:57:40 Guthur: It's worse than that, CLIM II specifies integer timeouts in seconds. 00:57:55 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has joined #lisp 00:58:07 my problem is that handler receive dont returns while dont have data and applicaction stops there 00:58:08 hehe, CLIM II is never in a rush then 00:59:19 wetnosed [~kai@f052097030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:59:23 pearle [~pearle@24.224.181.222] has joined #lisp 01:00:35 salva_oz: As I said, the lambda probably shouldn't block. 01:01:08 (Why do I have the feeling that I'm going to have to write an article on this style of multiprocessing API?) 01:01:10 -!- wetnosed_ [~kai@f052096215.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:01:55 salva_oz: Try using a LISTEN on the network stream instead of out-and-out attempting to receive a message, then once process-wait-with-timeout returns (and not with a timeout) do the read? 01:01:58 could be great that 01:02:49 ... and if this particular implementation holds close to what I'm semi-familiar with, a timeout would be indicated by process-wait-with-timeout returning (VALUES NIL :TIMEOUT). 01:03:11 nyef im trying in this way because the examples in mongrel2 do 01:05:12 ill try do a listen like yo say nyef , may be zeromq-cl permits this 01:05:26 Mmm... And at this point I'm sufficiently unfamiliar with the lisp implementation you're using and with the libraries you're using that all I can do is recommend that you read the documentation and possibly the system source. 01:05:41 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:05:46 (Figure out how process-wait-with-timeout works, for example.) 01:05:59 yes but allegro cl today is down 01:06:14 salva_oz: not any more. 01:06:29 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:01 not anymore the system will down? 01:07:04 salva_oz, what is the mp package? 01:07:14 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:07:18 mp is multiprocesing 01:07:25 form allegro 01:07:30 ah 01:07:36 pkhuong, my problem with cffi is that it causes me to have to worry about three more dependencies than I would just using alien and accepting that I'm stuck with SBCL. 01:08:12 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-248-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:08:22 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 01:08:26 don't fear the dependencies, there good for you 01:08:27 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 01:08:30 they're* 01:09:01 Allegro, for all that I've never looked into it too deeply, always struck me as having a "classically lisp" approach to a lot of things, quite possibly including multiprocessing. 01:09:34 Which would imply that blocking in the lambda passed to any PROCESS-WAIT function is -bad-, because the lambda is run by the scheduler. 01:10:00 ok 01:10:19 in need study this to find a solution 01:10:33 does mongrel2 not take care of alot of the MP stuff for you 01:10:36 Good luck. 01:10:52 thanks for your interest nyef 01:11:08 You're welcome. 01:11:22 I know that allegro supports select-style network programming 01:11:24 -!- xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:11:34 but it's been a very long time since I used it 01:11:39 Guthur: mongrel2 redirect the calls to yours zeromq services 01:11:56 yep, that was my understanding 01:12:33 -!- Blkt`` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-25-159.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:12:44 i this code im trying to get the mongrel2 messages to lisp chat service 01:14:31 oh, let me assure you, I don't fear dependencies. mine is the other emotion in that vaunted duo: loathing. I loathe dependencies. yet more stuff I have to worry about having break underneath my feet. 01:15:24 and more license terms that have to be reconciled with any commercial packaging scheme, if that weren't fun enough. 01:15:31 CFFI has been put through it's paces quite extensively 01:15:36 it is very popular 01:16:01 not saying it's bullet proof, but still very good 01:16:12 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:16:18 brightspark [~kyle@rpar-164-107-224-128.resnet.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 01:17:13 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has joined #lisp 01:18:35 MasterBismuth: My approach, FWIW, is to just use SB-ALIEN. If I ever have to port to another lisp implementation then fine, I'll either move to a "portable" FFI or I'll build a portability layer myself. Beyond that, I don't find the question to be worth worrying about. 01:18:36 -!- paul0 [~user@187.112.66.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:19:17 ok. that's an approach I was favorable too, since SBCL seems like the most favorable interpreter 01:19:25 at least from my extremely limited vantage 01:19:41 are you not going to depend on the compiler part then, hehe 01:19:48 ilynva [~energetik@94.73.219.35] has joined #lisp 01:19:53 sorry only trying to be facetious 01:20:08 Oh, don't get me wrong 01:20:12 You're absolutely right 01:20:15 I cannot contest that 01:20:17 but if I do 01:20:24 that SBCL has a compiler? 01:20:40 no, that I must depend on it 01:20:47 indeed, anyone using a programming language must 01:21:00 if I begin to question that, then I reckon that my sanity goes straight out the window 01:21:16 you could always use Forth 01:21:26 then you could build the system quickly yourself 01:21:52 I've pondered it, believe me, but bootstrapping a whole language ecosystem myself, even a mere Forth, is rather distasteful to my sensibilities. 01:22:09 and frankly, how can I even trust my own code?! 01:22:25 ok back away from the keyboard 01:22:36 beach: well, I solved that problem myself :P 01:22:38 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has joined #lisp 01:22:39 no, I simply want to minimize the number of different libraries because, in doing so, I minimize the number of different modes of thought that constitute my basis 01:22:50 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:22:53 it's a matter of psychological complexity as much as anything else 01:23:29 -!- pnq [~nick@host-176.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:23:33 pray that you never have to work with enterprise software systems 01:23:47 you're head will probably just explode 01:23:56 beach, I just want to do it in functional style 01:24:02 and I don't quite see a cognitive simplicity argument for the use of CFFI over sb-alien, assuming that both are, as I had originally hoped when I posed my question about sb-alien, that they bind using a method of declarative interpretation of the C/C++ header, rather than some long-winded Lua binding that requires a lot of imperative interpretation to get right. 01:24:26 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.114.145] has joined #lisp 01:24:44 From my limited and perhaps completely shortsighted research, these seem to be the two main philosophies of language binding 01:24:59 other languages that offer FFIs seem to do so with variations on these basic tropes 01:26:06 and yet, strangely, it would also seem that the imperative modes of rolling bindings are the ones that get all the rep for it. When I think of binding to C code, Tcl and Lua spring to mind sooner than Lisp. Granted, this could just be me betraying my own past biases. 01:26:20 Gunthur, my head is in the process of exploding, albeit in slow motion. 01:26:33 -!- turbofail [~user@107.3.149.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:26:36 This is part of why I have a strange obsession with minimization of dependencies. 01:28:22 Never know when Oracle will suddenly own Java and demand a tithing, or something like that. My goal is that of every fool to create a classical work with byzantine tools. Something forever enduring and simple enough to survive a long journey on the rough waters of computing. Naturally, pure C would probably best suit this need, but I do enjoy the benefits of a dynamic environment and a REPL, so I'm stuck with the interminable longing that comes from 01:28:23 wanting more than I'm willing to take on. 01:29:12 MasterBismuth: dependencies are no bad thing, unless you are a better programmer than every other person who worked in domains your programs touch, with infinite time (: 01:29:32 (then it actually makes a lot of sense to avoid them) (: 01:31:01 I think it can be a reasonable choice, though, to use what your implementation provides (e.g., as in the FFI case). 01:31:18 Yeah. I am just haunted by the nightmare that one of these dependencies might break. I'll spend a day analyzing the break, isolate it to the library, crack open the library, and find out that the whole thing is actually written in indecipherable angry-man Perl. 01:31:28 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:31:28 if you're not going to run the code on anything else, yeah... 01:31:44 nowadays, xach will do that (-; 01:32:18 does a lib need to be portable to get into QuickLisp 01:32:23 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:32:30 Guthur: not as far as I know 01:32:40 experience shows that it's usually not the maintainer of a library who has to fight with broken dependencies, but the people who integrate it (: 01:32:57 ah broken dependencies 01:33:02 (previously that was every single user, now it's people building distributions! we're making progress (-:) 01:33:12 I had forgotten that 'used' to happen 01:33:36 hehe, quicklisp really has made things so easy 01:34:05 am0c [~am0c@119.192.218.97] has joined #lisp 01:34:12 -!- Triplefault_ [~Mouse@adsl-145-215-225.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:34:24 Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-225.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:32 what is this quicklisp? is it an alternative to SBCL, or something else entirely? 01:34:33 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 01:35:02 quicklisp.org 01:35:15 it's a distribution & means of installing a lot of cl libraries 01:35:29 well-integrated, and very easy to set up 01:37:08 hmm, I see. isn't there already an incumbent CL package manager of some kind though? 01:37:21 Not one worth using. 01:37:26 yeah, asdf-install, aka the catastrophic failure generator 01:37:26 incumbent not to be construed as a measure of quality, mind 01:37:32 oh, sweet 01:37:35 yeah, that's the one 01:37:41 didn't know about the fail part tho 01:37:46 pretend it doesn't exist 01:37:53 it's quicklisp-installable, if anyone wants to still use it ((-: 01:38:09 are its packages just poorly maintained? it seems to be advertised as a feature of every CL distribution in existence, save maybe Allegro. 01:38:15 great marketing ploy by quicklisp that 01:38:34 MasterBismuth: nah, its architecture just allows for lots of things to go wrong 01:38:41 ah 01:38:43 One of the problems with asdf-install is that the master database, used for every single install request, is world-writable. 01:39:07 some random person's server goes down => nobody can install his/her software, or any software that depends on it 01:39:10 -!- beach [~user@116.118.11.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:39:28 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:40:03 stuff like that. it was all very ad-hoc and it failed very often, and very badly. 01:40:04 -!- naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-53-167.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:40:26 beach [~user@116.118.11.10] has joined #lisp 01:41:01 so quicklisp hosts stuff on s3, builds distributions at set times (and includes things at versions that work together). it's quite nice (: 01:41:15 -!- entropax [~entropi@192.55.54.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:41:19 alright, have to run - def. try out quicklisp, it's worth its weight in gold (: 01:45:26 replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:45:38 *nyef* vaguely remembers reading something that equated information density with physical mass, and had an argument about the information content of black holes... 01:47:03 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:40 -!- sbahra_ [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra_] 01:47:40 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has joined #lisp 01:47:58 -!- Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:49:28 nyef: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox in case you weren't aware 01:49:31 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:50:17 Bremermann's limit, nyef? 01:51:39 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:37 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:39 -!- wubo [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:20 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 01:57:39 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:59:09 Might have been something like that. 02:01:51 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.67.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:25 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 02:12:23 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has joined #lisp 02:12:52 azathoth99 [~g@pool-74-111-197-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:18 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-1-84.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:42 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-137-11.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:19:47 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 02:20:17 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:20:18 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-184-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:28 pnq [~nick@AC82E8D2.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:22:37 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host81-131-242-39.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:28:44 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-131-96.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:28:59 wubo [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:03 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:24 lemonodor: you still here? 02:31:34 hi gigamonkey, yep 02:32:04 Seems like every time I click on the highest page number in your search results I get an error. 02:32:14 However I was able to click on the next highest and then hit next and get to the page. 02:32:21 yeah it's just a bad url. should be /?page= instead of /page= 02:34:31 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-168289.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 02:34:53 what happened to piso's lisp? 02:36:14 -!- brightspark [~kyle@rpar-164-107-224-128.resnet.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:39:00 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@rrcs-64-183-44-130.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:39:00 Kind of exciting to see the original " that book is dead sexy" 02:41:27 replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:43:04 xale: xcl? Not sure. Last time I checked, it was enough to bootstrap SBCL, which is useful enough for me ;) 02:51:23 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:52:32 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has joined #lisp 02:53:42 Is there some easy way I'm forgetting to convert a pathname with :up elements in its directory component into one without? 02:53:50 Not TRUENAME because I don't want symlinks resolved. 02:54:33 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:55:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:57:25 If I have 3 mathematical functions generating sequences, what's a good way to find their intersecting numbers, if collecting all values and comparing lists is way too slow? 02:58:59 I didn't find anything for 02:59:08 oops, n is between 1 and 100000 02:59:46 gaidal: use an array of small numbers to count occurrences. 02:59:48 sacho [~sacho@90-154-149-158.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 02:59:58 generating 100k numbers shouldn't take a lot of time. 03:00:42 pkhuong: Maybe putting them in a list was slow, or (intersection). Count occurrences of what? 03:00:58 occurences of each number. 03:01:03 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:02 are the sequences ordered? 03:02:26 xale: Ordered as in f(n+1) > f(n)? Yes. 03:02:32 All of them. 03:02:58 Or... what does ordered mean here? 03:03:09 gaidal: then you can just traverse all three sequences concurrently. 03:03:11 then you can just do a 3 way merge, right? 03:03:19 well, you aren't really merging, but the same idea 03:03:27 intersection, but right. 03:04:26 I wanted to traverse all at the same time but since they don't grow at the same pace, I'm not sure how. 03:05:18 The first intersection is f1(285) = f2(165) = f3(143) 03:05:19 gaidal: you just always grow the smallest two to meet the largest 03:05:24 Oh. 03:06:09 gigamonkey/xach: pagination link fixed 03:06:36 Thanks, will give it a try. 03:13:10 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@66.102.14.9] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 03:13:52 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:19:03 -!- rumina [~rumina@88.148.219.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:23:34 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:24:14 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 03:24:30 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 03:24:46 xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:19 -!- wetnosed [~kai@f052097030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:16 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@203-217-69-111.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:34:42 madrik [~madrik@122.168.138.145] has joined #lisp 03:42:17 fvw [~user@183.62.131.177] has joined #lisp 03:44:38 enthymeme [~kraken@rrcs-64-183-86-53.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:46:23 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:46:50 gaidal: if they're ordered sequences, then you can traverse all 3 in lock-step instead of doing general many-to-many matches 03:47:14 Lock-step? I did as suggested above and it's blazing fast :) 03:48:03 t(55386)=1533776805 p(31977)=1533776805 h(27693)=1533776805, 0.062 seconds of real time. 03:48:09 yeah, that's the same thing, n/m 03:48:15 missed the ordered part somehow 03:48:52 OK, well, now I know what to call this method 03:49:50 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:50:35 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-149-171.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:06 gaidal: cool, what is it for? 03:52:24 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:52:39 oconnore: Another Euler problem: http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=45 03:53:08 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-1-84.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:53:11 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-sjwqzgjsqxlawmog] has joined #lisp 03:53:55 ah 03:55:48 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:55:53 I failed to notice that all numbers in the third sequence are also in the first... :P 03:55:58 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 04:05:36 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has joined #lisp 04:07:11 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09:22 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 04:12:05 -!- fvw [~user@183.62.131.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:12:23 MiddleFinger [46b3a973@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.169.115] has joined #lisp 04:12:34 Hey? 04:12:41 superjudge [~mjl@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 04:13:09 Anyone avvake? 04:13:54 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:14:04 _3b ``Erik a7p abeaumont absence acieroid adeht Adrinael Aisling akimbo akkartik albino alfa_y_omega_ algorist am0c Amadiro amb007 andreer antgreen antifuchs AntiSpamMeta antoszka araujo arbscht ASau Atomsk azathoth99 beach benny bfein Bike billstclair blackwol` Bootvis Borbus borism borkamaniac BrianRice Bucciarati Buganini bzzbzz_ C-Keen CallToPower cataska cch ccl-logbot cesarbp chr`` churib cibs clog_ clop2 clsmith cmatei cmb 04:14:16 Was that really necessary? 04:14:20 -!- MiddleFinger is now known as VVakeUp 04:14:29 Nobody answered, so that's what it took. 04:14:33 Now, 04:14:47 hi VVakeUp 04:14:48 What's the origin of this programming language's name? Why was it chosen? 04:14:50 I was waiting for you to ask your question (assuming you have a question). 04:14:54 LISt Processing 04:15:08 ok. How's it compare to C++ and Java? 04:15:11 «Common» because it combines a variety of dialects that were in use at the time. 04:15:15 Compare in what respect? 04:15:36 vvake: Strangely. 04:15:37 the wide application usability. 04:15:47 Most languages are widely applicable. 04:15:55 CL is no exception. 04:16:00 Or the difficulty in learning and using the code 04:16:08 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 04:16:08 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 04:16:08 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:16:11 It depends on how stupid you are. 04:17:27 Ok then, how can lisp be used to make me an income at home? 04:17:36 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-225.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:17:44 You could sell it door-to-door to housewives. 04:18:02 hey, I'm looking to make money at home. Should I use an Intel or AMD processor? 04:18:03 I have same curiosity with VVakeUp 's questions 04:18:10 The same way C++ or Java could, I reckon. Granted, you would probably have a harder time selling a bunch of lisp code. 04:18:22 These are very silly questions. 04:18:24 Nah, I'd like a script to make e-greeting cards and sell them online for extra-low overhead or anything; whatever it takes to make money for a low, low cost. 04:18:29 Then do it. 04:18:37 Have a look at wigflip. 04:19:01 Zhivago: Nothign: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigflip 04:19:51 It's always the retards who ask stupid questions that can't use google ... 04:20:00 ouch :[] 04:20:01 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=wigflip&l=1 04:20:03 zhivago is maybe 15 04:20:34 Google wigflip; see the first result ... 04:20:42 kewl 04:20:43 VV, perhaps it would be better if we understand why you're considering Lisp in the first place. 04:20:48 Zhivago: more likely trolls. 04:21:04 You speak of C++ and Java. I would take this to mean that you know them, so why not use them? 04:21:06 lisp must be the cutest name of all programming langs. 04:21:37 oconnore: I find it kinder to assume mental retardation -- after all they can't be held responsible for being retards. 04:22:13 (troll-p 'VVakeup) 04:22:18 VVakeUp: #ruby is much better for making greeting cards. 04:22:45 kinder but higher energy. 04:23:08 or write it in Malbolge, that's always a productive language 04:23:44 *VVakeUp* wonders exactly how many programming languages are there in use today anyway. 04:23:48 VVakeUp: CL would be good for writing the autopilot for a spaceship searching the outer reaches of the galaxy for alien greeting cards 04:24:19 I've heard there are more programming languages than there are natural languages. 04:24:23 VVakeUp: http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=wigflip 04:24:38 hey, I already did that. :( 04:24:42 wccoder: You're too l8. 04:25:20 -!- am0c [~am0c@119.192.218.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:27:44 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:31:00 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@d64-180-206-148.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:31:01 -!- VVakeUp [46b3a973@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.179.169.115] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:32:12 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:34:37 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:37:58 am0c [~am0c@119.192.218.97] has joined #lisp 04:44:00 Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has joined #lisp 04:44:15 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 04:44:58 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:10 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:48:12 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:49:29 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has joined #lisp 04:50:50 -!- am0c [~am0c@119.192.218.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:52:28 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 04:56:07 nostoi [~nostoi@246.Red-79-147-213.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:43 What's a smart algorithm for truncating a number from the left? I'm thinking get num-len and then (mod num (expt 10 (1- num-len))), anything smoother? 04:57:41 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-229-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:02:07 kami``` [~user@p5B20B9A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:32 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-92-125.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 05:03:24 -!- kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:06:12 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82E8D2.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:12:55 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hycxcnwefgiumila] has joined #lisp 05:14:29 good morning all 05:16:42 gaidal: how would you get num-len? 05:17:35 Phoodus: Looping for i from 0 and returning when (< n (expt 10 i)) I guess... 05:17:52 udzinari` [~user@nat/ibm/x-zptdpykyvevutqtl] has joined #lisp 05:17:56 or set i to (* 10 i) every iteration 05:18:34 divide i by 10^digits-to-trunc after you've found how big it is 05:18:37 then mod 05:18:41 should be fairly smooth 05:19:09 Right, I was just reading about some parts of loop I haven't learned yet, would I do that with for i = 1 then (* 10 i)? 05:19:30 I've never learned loop syntax; I tend to reach for recursive solutions 05:20:46 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-acqzpnxjkgzjxqjv] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:20:56 I'll try writing it that way too 05:21:21 if you're concerned about speed, loop might be faster. I'm not sure 05:21:25 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7FA90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 05:21:42 Won't know until I compare them :) 05:21:49 heh 05:23:57 Hm, if I set i to (* 10 i) each iteration, then don't I need a separate counter for num-len? 05:24:07 that's the point 05:24:14 Oh. 05:24:17 and if the digits to trunc is constant, you don't have any expt operations 05:25:17 htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 05:27:08 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:27:14 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:27:52 kami```` [~user@p5B20CC92.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:36 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@rrcs-64-183-86-53.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:29:18 -!- kami``` [~user@p5B20B9A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:29:21 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 05:29:29 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-66-29.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 05:31:34 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:32:54 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 05:34:02 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@246.Red-79-147-213.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 05:36:10 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:39:05 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 05:39:58 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:47:23 skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-179-184-40.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:27 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.124] has joined #lisp 05:48:21 -!- lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:30 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-sjwqzgjsqxlawmog] has left #lisp 05:53:37 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 05:55:06 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bvxyoybuwjwrogbc] has joined #lisp 05:58:52 snearch [~snearch@f053008216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:59:53 aoh [~aki@85.23.168.123] has joined #lisp 06:02:43 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bvxyoybuwjwrogbc] has left #lisp 06:03:04 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 06:08:02 -!- htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09:03 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:11:06 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jpfhvdsynxcydjpv] has joined #lisp 06:11:25 oh.. 06:12:13 -!- Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:12:41 Reviou [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:50 when have I slept with CL ? 06:13:08 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755b5b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:37 (foreplay (years 9)) 06:13:58 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-137-66-29.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 06:13:58 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-137-66-29.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:13:58 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 06:16:01 nikodemus [~nikodemus@82.181.63.174] has joined #lisp 06:16:12 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-66-29.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:16:12 leo2007 [~leo@123.114.40.40] has joined #lisp 06:16:23 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:16:23 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:16:23 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:16:59 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:17:54 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 06:20:34 -!- madrik [~madrik@122.168.138.145] has left #lisp 06:23:06 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:24:19 -!- kami```` is now known as kami 06:24:54 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:25:12 good morning 06:25:31 morning 06:25:41 i quite like xachs 06:25:52 gifcasts 06:25:53 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hycxcnwefgiumila] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:26:18 more coffeee, can't even type yet. 06:26:34 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:30:15 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-66-29.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 06:31:11 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 06:32:40 -!- sacho [~sacho@90-154-149-158.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:33:32 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:34:50 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-66-29.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:35:20 sacho [~sacho@90-154-149-158.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 06:37:17 -!- sacho [~sacho@90-154-149-158.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:39:33 i keep being surprised by how little bitrot linedit seems to suffer 06:50:08 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-069-148.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:46 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053008216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:51:17 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 06:53:15 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:53:29 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 06:53:29 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 06:53:29 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 06:53:55 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:54:19 -!- italic [~italic@cpe-67-242-144-94.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:00:41 agumonkey [agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:01 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 07:06:33 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:08:20 -!- beach [~user@116.118.11.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:08:35 rburton [~rburton@50.8.94.53] has joined #lisp 07:08:47 any good Common LISP for Mac OS? 07:09:01 rburton: it is spelled "Common Lisp" 07:09:20 :) 07:09:22 sbcl and openmcl. duh 07:09:25 rburton: and are you sure you don't want an answer for Mac OS X? 07:10:09 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 07:10:20 BrianRice: and i'm pretty sure it is called Clozure CL, not openmcl 07:10:44 oh right 07:10:50 old habit 07:10:52 let's help them move to the new name :) 07:11:00 *BrianRice* nods 07:11:25 jdz I see you have a name fetish ;) 07:11:53 no, he's right 07:11:53 not really, i have an anti-sloppiness fetish 07:12:26 Seems more anal than anything, but hey what's in a name. 07:13:04 I suspect if you were, you'd end off each sentence with a proper punctuation. I'm just assuming you're a little on IRC anger mode 07:13:10 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:13:17 Thanks BrianRiche 07:13:20 Rice 07:13:28 cheezus [~Adium@69.196.171.160] has joined #lisp 07:14:53 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 07:15:19 this is it: http://ccl.clozure.com/ 07:15:58 Thanks, downloading it now as we speak 07:16:17 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:17:58 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:22:56 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-125-112.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:23:10 Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.77] has joined #lisp 07:23:56 morphism1 [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 07:24:18 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:32:05 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.77] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:33:09 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:33:59 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 07:36:12 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 07:36:19 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:37:07 am0c [~am0c@119.192.218.97] has joined #lisp 07:37:23 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:24 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:41:21 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:43 -!- MasterBismuth [~MMURB@184.99.12.152] has quit [Quit: MasterBismuth] 07:43:03 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:45:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.114.40.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:56:43 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-2-229.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:56:47 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-25.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:00:14 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-73-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:02:35 -!- rburton [~rburton@50.8.94.53] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:04:24 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 08:05:10 -!- mbrezu [~user@78.97.92.79] has left #lisp 08:06:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:07:51 basho___ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-069-148.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 08:10:20 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69.196.171.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:10:44 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-069-148.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:11:15 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 08:11:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 08:11:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:12:42 alderz [~alderz@172.Red-88-10-156.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:38 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-150-63.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:34 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:15:48 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-149-171.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:19:34 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-ycfwjrajomyzqzmd] has joined #lisp 08:21:11 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-swnybsruvmdbtpsr] has joined #lisp 08:22:21 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 08:29:31 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@180.184.25.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:29:53 TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has joined #lisp 08:30:53 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755b5b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:34:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-3-41.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:34:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-3-41.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 08:34:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:39:10 yakov [~yakov@109.188.180.218] has joined #lisp 08:39:21 hey 08:39:44 what are the state of affairs with PortableAserve on Clozure? 08:39:48 who knwos? 08:41:39 mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-23-116.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:46:32 Try it. 08:46:48 hey 08:46:50 I guess everybody switched to Hunchentoot since then. 08:46:53 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:07 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:47:16 how do you guys think about SBCL and CCL ? 08:47:17 what database library would you recommend for a web site written in Common Lisp? 08:47:24 *What 08:47:37 morphism1: I think that I can read the sources of ccl more easily than sbcl. 08:48:02 Also, it looks like ccl is ported to more processors than sbcl, which must be a consequence. 08:48:05 -!- am0c [~am0c@119.192.218.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:48:17 Also, ccl is version 1.6 while sbcl is not yet 1.1. 08:48:29 pjb, maybe that's why it's better on Window 08:48:38 madsenz: more criteria need to be taken into consideration. 08:48:58 *Compare to SBCL is stilling porting 08:49:00 morphism1: I never tried sbcl or ccl on MS-Windows, only clisp. 08:49:12 pjb, i've started with hunchentoot also 08:49:13 pjb: CCL is x86/ppc/arm(experimental) only, and comes from a ppc-only (onc 68k-only) codebase 08:49:21 but ht-simple-ajax seems to way slow for me. 08:49:26 wuwei is better. 08:49:28 pjb: automatic persistence, orm? 08:49:34 even with demos from author's site. 08:49:42 pjb and in a long-term dev , do you think CCL is a good choice ? 08:49:44 and ht-simple-ajax is slow on localhost :-( 08:49:45 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:45 p_l|backup: yes, that's what I mean, ccl run on arm :-) 08:49:46 SBCL has... x86, sparc, alpha, mips(le and be), ppc 08:50:05 and once had HP-PA 08:50:22 (BTW, i must confirm ccl on n900 works good. was able to quickload many libraries) 08:50:37 madsenz: madsenzdo you need a SQL RDBMS backend? 08:50:39 heck, it can work on android too ? 08:51:13 not sure. 08:51:21 pjb: not necessarily. 08:51:22 madsenz: our http://dwim.hu site is running on an all CL codebase, and everything is opensource. 08:51:38 I've tried cl-mysql and it often breaks things up. 08:51:55 attila_lendvai: great):let me check out. 08:52:04 madsenz: Rucksack and elephant come to mind. 08:52:39 attila_lendvai, you should reconsider the design. 08:52:41 madsenz: I'd prefer postgres and postmortem. 08:52:58 pbj: do you mean the backend database for elephant? 08:53:02 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:53:08 madsenz: http://www.cliki.net/database 08:53:12 madsenz: ajax stuff is broken on ff 3.6, but I suspect it's a ff issue. also note hu.dwim.perec with is an ORM over CLOS 08:53:21 attila_lendvai, it's counterintoitive. i was really scared :-) 08:53:47 pbj: thanks:)! I'm reading that page too. 08:53:50 yakov: we should invest more time into it, which we don't. I know all that myself... 08:54:32 yakov: I heard once that dwim.hu was a weekend's worth of work that was never finished ;-) 08:54:51 Guthur [~Guthur@host81-131-242-39.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:06 this is the project's codebase: http://dwim.hu/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=HEAD%20hu.dwim.home;a=summary 08:56:05 cool.. 08:57:49 nowadays I'm spending a bit of time on making the codebase work also with sencha, not only dojo 09:00:35 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:03:25 szia attila 09:04:28 te vagy egyedül magyarországról a google mapsen a lisp használók táborában 09:05:45 pjb: can CCL run on Android OS on smart phone ? 09:06:21 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:59 There's a prototype running on iPhone. 09:09:00 morphism1: Android is a rather complex platform that makes it hard to port something like CCL 09:09:05 ECL works, though 09:11:31 And ABCL probably runs in interpreted mode. 09:11:31 but it's just another linux , isn't it ? 09:13:07 morphism1: yes, but with a kernel that separates user processes in stricter ways. Each app is running in a chroot() environment with additional separation semantics in the syscalls. 09:13:41 easyE: I pm'ed you yesterday, but you didn't answer. Yes, I'm in Austria. 09:15:16 easyE: so it's quite different from the original linux kernel ? 09:15:53 hope some time they will make a port on that and it would be awesome :P 09:15:59 morphism1: not really 09:16:26 Android runs *on* Linux. Nowhere in the spec does it actually say it *has* to 09:18:05 would a CCL application be acceptable in the Apple App store 09:18:30 Guthur: depends on a lot of other factors, I guess ... eg. GPL is incompatible, AFAIK 09:18:38 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:18:50 Don't know about MIT or BSD, but they could work 09:19:01 I see that Android has java as its native dev lang 09:19:01 BerndBauer [~BerndBaue@d91-128-191-68.cust.tele2.at] has joined #lisp 09:19:12 so some CL impl on Java should work 09:19:17 :-? 09:19:19 Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-225.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:32 -!- BerndBauer [~BerndBaue@d91-128-191-68.cust.tele2.at] has left #lisp 09:19:50 <11:06:05> And ABCL probably runs in interpreted mode. 09:19:58 -!- kami [~user@p5B20CC92.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:20:17 flip214, didn't realize about he GPL incompatibility 09:20:25 that's pretty messed up 09:20:56 Guthur: http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/more-about-the-app-store-gpl-enforcement 09:21:14 Well, I've read somewhere that Apple didn't intend to reject GPL applications (there are some), but that's what I read from the legalese. May be it was inadvertent. 09:21:36 app store: "The Usage Rules shall govern your rights with respect to the Products, in addition to any other terms..." 09:21:47 gpl: "You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein." 09:22:33 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:23:58 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:24:20 But mostly, the problem is that the GPL should allow a user to fetch the source of his application, to modify it, and to republish it. But Apple rejects applications that are "too close" to other applications in the AppStore. They would most probably reject a fork. 09:25:27 kami`` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:27:00 -!- kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:29:38 morphism1: Android uses JVM in developement, but it's not exactly a JVM platform :) 09:30:07 |3b|, ping 09:30:11 pjb: GPL is considered unclear by some lawyers regarding App Store style distribution 09:30:51 Indeed. I would use a different license for AppStore, while dual-licensing the sources outside of it for interested users. 09:31:17 Notice that the problem with the AppStore, is more that AppStore customers are not interested in their freedom. 09:33:11 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:34:20 I'm definitely not a fan of Apple's world, but I'd like the possibility of releasing on both iphone and android, if I make a mobile app in the future 09:34:22 atomx [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #lisp 09:34:33 -!- yakov [~yakov@109.188.180.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:58 *p_l|backup* doesn't want to end up discussing whether GPL is "Free" or not 09:40:44 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B7EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:12 cfy` [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 09:41:25 <|3b|> Guthur: 'lo 09:41:38 -!- cfy` is now known as Guest48 09:42:26 -!- ilynva [~energetik@94.73.219.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:43:19 is that " * " character will make a naming conversion for global variable automatically in CL ? 09:43:20 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:44:40 |3b|, have you ever implemented a deferred shading system? 09:44:44 morphism1: no. It's not a CONVERSION, it's a CONVENTION! 09:44:49 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-225.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:45:05 <_3b> Guthur: not recently, think i messed with one long ago thogh 09:45:09 morphism1: you could take the convetion of naming all your global variable with global. or special. prefixed. 09:45:28 (defvar global.default-indent 4) 09:45:59 Any convention that ensures that when you write a LET form you don't expect a lexical binding when the symbol is declared special is all that is required. 09:46:00 |3b|, I was wondering if you think it would be a particularly bad idea on mobile platforms 09:46:59 <_3b> depends on the platform probably, for example i don't think glES 2 requires more than 16bit/565 renderable buffers, which would be a bit limiting 09:47:18 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:47:25 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:48:29 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:01 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-168289.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:49:15 <_3b> if you have at least 8bit/channel and lots of fill rate you can probably manage it, if you can render to float buffers it gets more likely 09:49:58 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-bfjcdxfvxssmuoqq] has joined #lisp 09:50:03 Guest48` [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 09:50:10 IF I have to deal w/ multi *db* list data, what can I do to apply function to those list ? ( since something like (defun add (element *db*) (...)) can't work ?) 09:50:11 -!- Guest48 [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:50:37 have to admit I have look to much at what might available on recent smartphone tech 09:50:48 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-168289.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:51:01 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:51:45 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:51:50 I did implement a deferred render a few years ago, I'll try to get it going on my CL engine this weekend 09:54:21 *_3b* supposes available ram could be an issue on small devices too 09:55:49 true, I assume most of them use a shared memory arch 09:56:04 for the graphics 09:58:30 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:54 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 09:59:10 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:00:27 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:01:32 -!- The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:02:02 -!- azathoth99 [~g@pool-74-111-197-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-25.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:35 kai__ [~kai@e179019015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:02:50 -!- kai__ is now known as wetnosed 10:04:13 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:05:19 The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 10:05:52 -!- alderz [~alderz@172.Red-88-10-156.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:06:26 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-ovbhpnanelxcoozx] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:07:36 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:07:52 guther [~guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-oxohrnxrjesbgkns] has joined #lisp 10:09:30 anyone ? 10:10:54 IF I have to deal w/ multi *db* list data , what can I do to apply function to those lists without making function that directly change that *db* value ? ( something like (defun add (element *db*) (...)) ?) 10:13:09 morphism1: mapcar is one way 10:13:40 ( I mean many Lists 10:13:49 <_3b> put the list in an object, store object in *db*, modify the contents of the object 10:14:07 you mean using CLOS ? 10:14:14 <_3b> ('object' can be a clos instance, cons, array, whatever) 10:14:43 alderz [~alderz@172.Red-88-10-156.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:28 but I need that data to query in run-time ? 10:16:17 <_3b> not sure what you mean 10:16:28 (is there any kind of 'DataSet' -alike in CL ?) 10:17:03 <_3b> there is nothing with that name in CL, and without any context it isn't very descriptive 10:17:20 Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:19:09 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-12-235.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:19:33 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:00 When I was working with C#, I always uses that DataSet, which contain many other DataTables which get 10:20:15 So I am trying to find a way to do so in CL 10:20:18 :-? 10:20:38 heck, for example , (defvar *db* nil) => *db* 10:20:39 a table isn't much more that a 2d array 10:20:40 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 10:20:43 <_3b> you can store lists in lists, or hash tables, or arrays, or clos instances 10:20:43 then 10:21:05 <_3b> (or arrays in lists, any other combination of those) 10:21:12 (defun add (x) (push x *db*)) 10:21:21 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:21:35 but why (defun add (x *db*) (push x *db*)) doesn't work ? 10:21:53 <_3b> so (defvar *db* (list nil)) (defun add (x db) (pushnew x (car db)) (add 123 *sb*) (car *db*) 10:22:01 ( since I want only list that is in the function parameter get affected ) 10:22:06 What problem does a DataSet solve? 10:22:30 _3b : :O 10:22:32 <_3b> right, which is why you affect the list in the function parameter instead of the parameter itself 10:23:11 _3b :D ya, that's what I'm confused , thanks 10:23:21 morphism: CL passes object references by value, like java. 10:23:38 morphism: You're affecting the local binding of *db* there. 10:23:45 Zhivago ; u mean like C# too ? 10:23:57 I think so :P 10:23:58 morphism: Presumably, but please spell "you" properly. 10:24:08 HET2 [~diman@host109-153-170-244.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:44 btw, _3b, what's the different between (defvar *db* nil) and (defvar *db* (list nil)) ? 10:27:41 <_3b> morphism1: nil is an empty list, (list nil) makes a list containing an empty list 10:29:48 I'm looking for a function to check if a symbol is globaly accessable. Any suggestions what I should search for? 10:30:03 <_3b> define 'globally accessible'? 10:30:25 <_3b> exported? boundp? interned? 10:31:02 printed in a book published internationally? 10:31:35 I'm checking if a symbol interned in a package is "exportable". 10:31:47 What does *that* mean? 10:32:06 <_3b> (constantly T) might return a function for that 10:32:29 jtza8: maybe you're looking for the second value returned by FIND-SYMBOL? 10:33:00 *jtza8* takes a look... 10:33:27 *_3b* supposes you could check for packages that USE the packages that symbol is exported from, and see if there would be conflicts if you add it to the export list of any of the packages the symbol is present in 10:33:40 jtza8: but nothing stops you from importing a non-external symbol from a package, then re-exporting it. 10:33:54 <_3b> or rather packages that :use the packages the symbol /isn't exported frmo 10:34:43 what's dumping lisp image used for ? 10:34:58 <_3b> morphism1 saving state, making it faster to load things next time, etc 10:36:01 _3b: what it contain inside ? 10:36:39 <_3b> whatever was in the lisp's memory when it was dumped 10:36:50 Xach, _3b: Well, I suppose, if I were to rephrase my question -- I'm trying to check whether a symbol is bound or not. That includes functions, classes, structures, macros, etc. 10:36:51 <_3b> (functions, data, etc) 10:37:23 _3b , is that like what I loaded in the REPL ? 10:37:44 <_3b> jtza8 ah, hard to answer that meaningfully, boundp, fboundp, macro-function would give a few 10:37:50 morphism1: when you start your lisp, you actually boot the image. the image contains all of lisp (usually). 10:38:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:38:44 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-swnybsruvmdbtpsr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:38:47 I just hoped for a magic bullet. Thanks for your help. 10:38:56 <_3b> maybe find-class, not sure you can ask about structure or type names, definitely can't ask about random symbols the code might care about (for example as initargs of a class, or other magic values) 10:39:06 (swank::classify-symbol 'list) => (:CLASS :FBOUNDP) 10:39:09 morphism1: it is kind of similar to booting a virtual machine image, except that you end up with a lisp system as opposed to an OS. 10:39:44 stassats: Wow, thanks :) 10:40:13 <_3b> yeah, slime/swank is usually a good place to look for introspection stuff 10:40:45 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 10:40:46 hypno: will it contain library or just everything I loaded into memory when it's dumped ? 10:40:58 morphism1: it will contain everything. :) 10:41:52 so the actually size of CCL is just 19 mb ? 10:42:06 morphism1: that is why it may be practical to dump an image sometimes. you essentially dump a new lisp core with all the latest and greatest functionality you need and so you do not have to re-load everything from scratch. 10:42:17 ... Yeah, it's too bad CL itself isn't all that good at introspection, it might be a good thing for a programmable programming language to have. 10:42:34 hypno: thanks, I got it :P 10:43:04 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:43:07 don't know whatcha talking about, swank::classify-symbol uses standard cl functions (almost) 10:43:12 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@82.181.63.174] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:45:44 stassats: ... but swank isn't part of standard CL itself... Then again, that shouldn't be a problem. You're right. 10:46:15 yes, the standard doesn't specify laziness 10:46:29 That's a flaw. 10:46:38 Laziness is one of the programmer virtues. 10:46:43 beach [~user@116.118.8.122] has joined #lisp 10:47:32 stassats: drat! 10:48:29 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jpfhvdsynxcydjpv] has left #lisp 10:49:01 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-92-125.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 10:54:01 *udzinari`* - using python after cl is so much like using pascal after python :/ 10:54:13 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 10:54:27 -!- morphism1 [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:55:26 have you tried using pascal after cl? 10:56:18 I don't want to get a stroke :D 10:56:40 -!- HET2 [~diman@host109-153-170-244.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:59:38 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-ycfwjrajomyzqzmd] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:59:56 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:00:54 -!- alderz [~alderz@172.Red-88-10-156.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:01:08 using C after CL is bad too. i probably use function pointers way too often... 11:01:44 I just advertised bknr.datastore to a java programmer. He was impressed and didn't even mind the parens. :) 11:03:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:04:55 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-168289.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:07:44 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:09:35 _3b, gen-frame-buffers seems to be missing from cl-opengl, am I looking in the wrong place? 11:09:56 -!- qebab [~robb@jaguar.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:12:02 <_3b> Guthur: looks like itmight just not be exported yet 11:12:40 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:12:57 was it only a recent addition to opengl 11:13:08 <_3b> gl3 i think 11:14:08 <_3b> (at least based on the comment in the low-level bindings, which are based on gl.spec files, don't remember exactly what they mean) 11:14:52 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 11:15:38 renderbuffer? 11:15:54 the spec refers to them as framebuffers 11:16:15 <_3b> not quite the same thing i think 11:16:33 ok, but the comment is saying frame buffer 11:16:58 <_3b> one is the whole object you render to, other is a specific chunk of memory you attach to the other (instead of a texture or whatever) 11:17:01 <_3b> which comment? 11:17:15 the comment in cl-opengl 11:17:33 <_3b> file/line? 11:17:40 I'm probably just getting my wires crossed here 11:18:18 each comment over the defglexfun for renderbuffer functions says framebuffer 11:18:51 maybe because it is a type of framebuffer object 11:19:03 <_3b> funcs.lisp/4935 you mean? 11:19:55 <_3b> ARB_framebuffer_object is the name of the extension that introduced it 11:20:18 ah ok 11:20:26 <_3b> (you can't do much with a renderbuffer that isn't attached to a framebuffer) 11:20:50 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:20:56 ah, the reason I couldn't find it so easily was because I thought it would gen-frame-buffers 11:21:11 but it's actually gen-framebuffers 11:21:20 <_3b> yeah, i kept the word breaks from GL where possible 11:21:36 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:21:45 my fault I didn't look closely enough at the spec 11:21:51 <_3b> even if some of them aren't quite obvious if you don't know they are making new words out of multiple real words :p 11:21:57 I wrongly assumed it was GenFrameBuffers 11:24:22 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-pmlpthafnoyvrurs] has joined #lisp 11:25:04 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:26:26 -!- ld-s [~lundis@dyn56-304.yok.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:28:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-3-41.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:28:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-3-41.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 11:28:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:28:59 Well, when I try to use C after CL, the first thing I write is struct object { int tag; union { ... and then I say "hopless", and I fetch ecl. 11:30:54 dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:31:01 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:04 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:31:48 <_3b> current debian and ubuntu ship sbcl 1.0.45 now, right? 11:32:17 http://packages.ubuntu.com/sbcl says yes 11:32:50 http://packages.debian.org/sbcl says 1.0.47 for testing and unstable 11:33:06 *_3b* realizes i run both of those systems, so can just check apt, gets 1.0.40 on both :/ 11:33:18 *_3b* meant stable rather than testing/unstable 11:34:05 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.211] has joined #lisp 11:34:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:34:12 The union is a mistake. 11:34:20 _3b: natty narwhal was released yesterday, so it's stable 11:34:51 <_3b> ah, guess i need to upgrade in a month or 2 then 11:35:58 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:36:09 For C, what you should do is struct reference { int class; void *instance; }; 11:36:37 Then you can pass those around by value to implement class-of. 11:36:47 <_3b> i guess if debian stable is going to have 1.0.40 indefinitely, i won't bother completely removing the stuff from clws to work around pre-1.0.42 problems 11:37:19 Zhivago: well, if you want to write a clos-based lisp, right. 11:37:29 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 11:38:02 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:11 But even then, it might be better to store the slots in the same record, to simplify memory allocation. 11:39:50 Not for C. 11:40:05 And it wouldn't work for arbitrary objects. 11:41:13 What is the SBCL style police's stand on c89 vs. c99-style declaration placement? The Makefiles don't seem to have -std= or -pedantic, but most code is in c89-style. 11:41:18 So is it OK to put declarations in the middle of blocks? 11:41:42 Yes. But useless. 11:42:29 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:42:38 Oh, C declarations... 11:46:48 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:47:08 I'm asking because Dmitry's changes use c99-style in several places, and I'll keep it that way if it doesn't bother anyone. 11:47:33 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-248-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 11:49:04 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:49:45 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:25 I don't mind them if reasonably stale gcc versions don't mind them 11:50:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:50:37 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-pmlpthafnoyvrurs] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:51:05 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 11:51:23 _3b, do you usually stick to the stable repo with debian 11:53:34 qebab [~robb@jaguar.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 11:54:22 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 11:54:30 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-bfjcdxfvxssmuoqq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:54:54 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Client Quit] 11:55:40 Joreji [~thomas@66-020.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:57:11 -!- Buganini [~buganini@2001:288:c237:0:dead:beef:cafe:babe] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:58:25 Buganini [~buganini@2001:288:c237:0:dead:beef:cafe:babe] has joined #lisp 11:58:38 Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-225.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:22 beach` [~user@116.118.8.122] has joined #lisp 12:00:10 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-225.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:00:55 HET2 [~diman@host109-153-170-244.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:01:28 jsnell: OK, thanks! 12:02:10 -!- beach [~user@116.118.8.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:04:19 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:08:14 volandovengo [~volandove@90.165.56.66] has joined #lisp 12:10:01 greentea [~greentea@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:32 hey - any hackernews affecionados here? 12:10:50 volandovengo: Ask the question 12:11:26 well maybe that has been the questoin already. Who knows! 12:11:35 <_3b> Guthur: when i use debian i do 12:11:54 lichtblau: the next step is RTTI-less C++ ;) 12:11:59 <_3b> Guthur: in this case i'm more worried about what other people do, since i don't get sbcl from repos anyway :) 12:12:49 -!- volandovengo [~volandove@90.165.56.66] has quit [Client Quit] 12:12:57 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:07 i was actually pleasantly surprised to see SBCL repos remain reasonably up to date 12:14:34 -!- greentea [~greentea@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:14:51 <_3b> (or rather i don't get sbcl from linux distros, i do get sbcl from the sbcl git repo (mirror)) 12:15:27 Is there some problem i don't about getting it from distros? 12:15:53 <_3b> one is that they are probably old (debian shipping sbcl 1.0.18 until a few months ago for example) 12:15:57 I just keep an ebuild in my local overlay with the latest version 12:16:02 (gentoo) 12:16:14 they tend to modify it in bizarre ways 12:16:22 Yep, the patches they had 12:16:22 <_3b> another is that they tend to add a bunch of random cfinguration options that make sense in the context of a multi-user system, or one makaged by someone who knows the distro 12:16:25 Broke a lot of shit 12:16:31 I just removed them, works fine 12:16:32 <_3b> *configuration 12:17:03 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.167] has joined #lisp 12:17:17 <_3b> gentoo overlay at one point had a reputation for being one of the usable distros, dunno if that is still true 12:17:27 *_3b* doesn't use gentoo though, so doesn't help me :) 12:18:51 <_3b> mostly the problem is that if you use distro lisp stuff, the config will be subtly different from what anyone else here has, so it is a lot harder to give or get support 12:19:21 _3b: That's noy my experience 12:19:23 *not 12:19:30 It always worked fine in both gentoo and arch 12:19:43 It really just installs sbcl, no voodoo 12:19:43 <_3b> 'always'? guess you never ran sbcl from command line on arch 12:19:55 <_3b> they shipped it with broken debugger for quite a while 12:20:06 _3b: When was this? 12:20:15 I didn't use arch for very long 12:20:23 I have been mostly using gentoo for quite a few years 12:20:50 <_3b> don't remember exactly when, just remember trying to help debug it :p 12:21:04 <_3b> like i said, gentoo is relatively good from what i've heard :) 12:21:18 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 12:21:23 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*Ricky@203.160.114.* *!~Ricky@119.224.23.15 *!*@123.120.30.* *!*81826308@*.129.130.99.8 12:21:24 Have to go, later 12:21:26 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 12:21:26 <_3b> haven't heard problems with arch aside from that debugger thing, so presumably not too bad eithr 12:22:32 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-fuijdjzqxscpdtbb] has joined #lisp 12:22:38 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:22:52 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 12:24:58 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:25:19 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:25:58 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:27:40 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 12:28:37 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28:53 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.167] has joined #lisp 12:31:50 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.167] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31:51 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.211] has left #lisp 12:31:55 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.167] has joined #lisp 12:32:39 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-159-104.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:33:05 -!- rme [rme@clozure-D0DF58FC.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 12:33:05 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-113-163.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 12:33:38 jingtao` [~jingtaozf@li94-153.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:35:24 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 12:35:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 12:35:24 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:36:40 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:38:38 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xnlwjotwylgdwfqu] has joined #lisp 12:43:01 sellout [~Adium@64.134.67.206] has joined #lisp 12:43:28 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:43:43 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-nqpludwtrpwlrwgg] has joined #lisp 12:49:16 -!- Guest48` is now known as cfy 12:49:18 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:49:22 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 12:49:22 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:49:23 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 12:55:49 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:15 is cl-sane the only existing lib to do something with scanners in CL? Or am I missing something in my search? 12:57:27 jweiss_ [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:09 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:58:20 c|mell [~cmell@178.175.101.26] has joined #lisp 12:58:44 silenius [~silenus@p54947328.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:28 thijso: seems likely. 12:59:44 that it's the only one, that is 13:01:22 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:01:38 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has joined #lisp 13:02:06 ok.. then I'll see how far it gets me ;) 13:02:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:02:45 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 13:02:45 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 13:02:45 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:03:58 amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 13:04:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-12-235.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:04:05 hey. 13:04:23 whats diff bet apply and funcall in common lisp ? 13:05:18 amirhoshangi: What about their description in the hyperspec did you find unclear? 13:05:24 ryankask [~ryan_lang@5ad7a8fb.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:35 You did check http://l1sp.org/cl/funcall and http://l1sp.org/cl/apply before asking, right? 13:06:28 of course nope ! lack of resources for new comer in lisp. 13:07:00 amirhoshangi: Ah, then I recommend looking at a tutorial introduction, like http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 13:07:16 im checking that also 13:07:19 amirhoshangi: And the hyperspec is a great way to get detailed answers about what a particular thing means. 13:07:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:08:18 tnx, i didnt knew about them. 13:09:46 amirhoshangi: After you read them, you will probably realize that with FUNCALL, the first argument is called as a function and each argument after that is passed to that function, first, second, third, etc. With APPLY, the final argument must be a list, and it is "unpacked" to provide arguments to the function, rather than being passed as a single argument. 13:10:13 For example, (funcall '+ 1 2 3) is somewhat like (apply '+ (list 1 2 3)) 13:10:30 it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize that it's also like (apply '+ 1 (list 2 3)) ... 13:10:44 And I always read "on #ä 13:10:58 And I always read "on #lisp they're so grumpy, they won't read the documentation to you" ;-) 13:10:58 *Xach* spent a lot of time consing things on the front of lists to pass to apply 13:11:59 Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-225.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:52 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.181.218.2] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:13:01 yup, i got it now 13:15:06 flip214: i think #LISP is real channel :). ive been with lots of communities. lisp has a great one. 13:16:17 -!- HET2 [~diman@host109-153-170-244.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:16:35 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-225.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:16:45 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:17:17 Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-225.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:59 Xach: are you saying (apply '+ (list 1 2 3)) is same as (apply '+ 1 (list 2 3)) or that you can do (apply '+ 1 (list 2 3)) by doing (funcall '+ 1 2 3), because the first doesn't work? 13:18:21 that's all hearsay, lisp has no community 13:18:42 thijso: the first? 13:18:49 thijso: The former. 13:19:12 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:14 ah, ok 13:19:28 *thijso* is reading those links Xach pasted, too, obviously.. ;) 13:19:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:20:10 stassats: Actually, it's not entirely correct. lisp has the same kind of communities as lions. Male lions are solitary, and some lucky ones have herds of females to hunt for him. The only difference, is that there's (close to) no females in CS. 13:20:22 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:20:23 you can also use (apply #'funcall '(+ 1 2 3)) 13:20:25 stassats: so lisp is just a lot of individuals, bound together only by the non-understanding (and perhaps hatred) from other programming languages? 13:20:27 that's not true 13:20:32 pjb: That is one of the worst analogies I have ever heard. 13:20:54 srsly 13:21:02 pjb: more and more girls are in CS 13:21:03 er 13:21:06 seriously. 13:21:08 Well, at least there's "one quicklisp to bind them all, now" ;-) 13:21:25 z0d: yes, but on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog. 13:21:39 that's true 13:21:44 thijso: thanks for mentioning cl-sane. i had never heard of it before. it will be in the next quicklisp update. 13:21:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-020.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:21:58 does it make cl more sane? 13:22:15 <_3b> no, thats a 'minus' not a dash netweeb CL and SANE :p 13:22:24 <_3b> *between 13:22:40 "CL, the insane parts"? 13:22:43 *_3b* 's typing seems to be deteriorating lately :( 13:23:16 How do I tell if a Linux is 32 or 64 bit? If `arch` returns "i686" that's 32bit right? 13:23:22 yes 13:23:35 flip214: thanks. 13:23:36 Xach: you're welcome, although I'm not sure how good it is (last update 2008, and not that much documentation)... 13:23:45 uname -m --> x86_64 vs. x86 13:23:46 easyE: I use "file /bin/ls" and look for "ELF 64-bit ..." 13:23:50 jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.167] has joined #lisp 13:24:02 thijso: What do I care about quality? If it builds, it's in! I need to pad my numbers! (and it does build) 13:24:19 <[df]> depends whether you mean the kernel or the userspace 13:24:26 Xach: ;) 13:24:44 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-193-133.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 13:24:55 Xach: right. 13:27:34 -!- jingtao` [~jingtaozf@li94-153.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:28:14 Xach: you might have a mixed-arch system :) 13:28:20 uname is the correct way 13:28:36 p_l|backup: you take that back, i would never have such a thing 13:28:56 Xach: hahaha 13:29:25 *p_l|backup* had two systems that could run multiple architectures from one filesystem 13:29:29 (defun 64-bit-p () (< (expt 2 32) most-positive-fixnum)) 13:29:44 (y-or-n-p "do you want to run 64-bit code?") 13:30:09 pjb: #+x86-64 13:30:13 pjb: ISTR some discussions on an mmx-backed tagging scheme for x86 on c.l.l 13:30:58 pjb: is this for pointer or int size? 13:31:18 cause there are configurations that have 32bit address space and 64bit word size 13:31:36 p_l|backup: I don't know, ask what it means to who wants to know whether "Linux is 32 or 64 bit". 13:33:01 It was a non-Lisp question per se, to see if I should choose 32/64 bit deb packaages. 13:34:04 <[df]> ah, then you really want to know what your userspace is 13:34:25 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:34 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:35:01 df: yeah. I didn't know that Linux had different kernel/user. 13:35:23 it doesn't have, typically. but it can. 13:35:40 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo4.213.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:24 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 13:36:25 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has left #lisp 13:36:35 <[df]> easyE: dpkg --print-architecture is probably a good bet for this particular case 13:37:07 Joreji [~thomas@66-020.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:37:27 well, how about just "apt-get install sbcl/unstable" ? 13:38:19 vert2_ [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-fmyupumtzzgcyney] has joined #lisp 13:38:38 <[df]> I assumed this was about a package that wasn't in an apt repo 13:38:42 rmarianski [~rmariansk@209.20.72.181] has joined #lisp 13:40:17 well, running debian testing/unstable is nice ... at least for some parts 13:40:36 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 13:41:14 naeg_ [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 13:42:59 *stassats* runs debian unstable for all parts 13:43:05 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:43:21 -!- naeg_ is now known as naeg 13:44:45 stassats: "apt-get dist-upgrade -t unstable", daily? 13:45:19 aptitude safe-upgrade 13:46:05 with unstable as default repo, ok 13:46:54 -!- jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:08 how does such an upgrade deal with old (in network service) configuration files and library dependencies? 13:47:10 jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.167] has joined #lisp 13:47:17 that wants to uninstall sbcl for me ;-( 13:47:42 hypno: either they're compatible, or there's a script to convert them. debian is nice in this ... 13:48:42 flip214: oh. does it backup all existing files before so you can revert? do you ever end up with symbols missing in 3d-party libs and similiar lib issues? 13:49:02 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 13:49:25 config files get renamed and kept as .dpkg-old; dependencies are handled by apt-get and aptitude (and others), but not directly by dpkg 13:50:16 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-150-156.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:50:28 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:39 See here for some doc: http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-uptodate.en.html 13:51:09 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441465.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 13:51:36 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:51 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:54:14 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:54:40 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:56:09 astoon [~chatzilla@nat105-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has joined #lisp 13:56:11 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xnlwjotwylgdwfqu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:57:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:57:55 aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has joined #lisp 13:58:08 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:45 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:02 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 14:00:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 14:00:02 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:00:21 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:01:55 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441465.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:02:07 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:43 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:06:42 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-fuijdjzqxscpdtbb] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:08:51 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-113-163.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:52 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 14:09:24 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-18.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:11:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:15:22 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-125-112.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:17 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-125-112.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:16:20 It's the first time since weeks that my jit code isn't crashing! :) 14:17:25 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:18:29 ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.12] has joined #lisp 14:21:16 dostoyevsky: you just wait 14:22:23 wccoder [~wccoder@d64-180-206-148.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:31 -!- amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 14:23:27 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.114.145] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:24:38 hahaha 14:27:03 Necrocyber [~Necrocybe@186.213.116.226] has joined #lisp 14:27:14 hey anyone 14:27:21 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:28 i need a help about Lisp 14:28:30 Necrocyber: What's up? 14:28:38 how i make a comparassion using a function on lisp, for pass for all my list 14:28:39 ?? 14:29:02 I don't understand the question. 14:29:26 the questions is i need pass for a list i create i na some interpreter 14:29:35 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 14:29:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 14:29:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:29:36 a job of my University 14:29:54 I understand some of those words, but I don't understand them in the arrangement you're using. 14:30:10 let me show for you 14:30:20 *Xach* suspects multiple language barriers 14:30:33 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:40 have a command in lisp for pass for all lists 14:31:39 Necrocyber: Your English is very difficult to understand. If you could paste some code showing what you're trying to do at paste.lisp.org, that might help a lot. 14:31:52 sorry hehe 14:32:48 You might also try #lisp-pt 14:33:36 composed language barriers 14:33:45 now that's a communication problem 14:34:05 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:34:51 greaver [~J@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:35:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:37:49 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:41:07 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:29 lifeng [~lifeng@116.15.185.57] has joined #lisp 14:45:19 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:45:27 -!- superjudge [~mjl@195.22.80.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:45:48 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:50:36 -!- sellout [~Adium@64.134.67.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:51:30 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has joined #lisp 14:53:46 Krystof [~csr21@2.26.222.227] has joined #lisp 14:54:38 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 14:55:08 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:57:08 nuomi [~nuomi@115.173.224.52] has joined #lisp 14:57:45 -!- nuomi [~nuomi@115.173.224.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:39 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:05 -!- sellout is now known as Guest85004 15:04:29 -!- Guest85004 is now known as sellou- 15:04:33 -!- sellou- is now known as sellout- 15:05:06 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:19 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@173-167-99-61-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:28 -!- skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-179-184-40.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:08:04 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:45 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 15:10:04 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:10:12 morphling [~stefan@95.117.91.91] has joined #lisp 15:12:41 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 15:13:12 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:15:21 pers [~user@31.sub-75-224-227.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:26 -!- pers [~user@31.sub-75-224-227.myvzw.com] has quit [K-Lined] 15:16:45 pers [~user@185.sub-75-240-48.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:19:01 -!- pers [~user@185.sub-75-240-48.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 15:19:38 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 15:19:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 15:19:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:20:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:20:24 umm lisppaste's paste to channel doesn't seem to work for me (Chrome) 15:21:33 <_3b> bots are probably broken, that confuses the paste thing too 15:21:53 <_3b> go to the list pastes page to see it 15:22:10 ok, well here's the link instead (warning this is monstrous macro) http://paste.lisp.org/+2LVJ 15:22:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-18.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:22:50 i'm getting that warning but can't see why it's not being used 15:23:34 oh, I should probably post the expanded form as well 15:23:38 2 secs 15:24:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:24:50 ok, expanded form annotation added 15:25:41 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:26:42 urandom__ [~user@p548A5C22.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:46 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 15:27:04 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-nqpludwtrpwlrwgg] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:27:33 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:28:59 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 15:29:05 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:29 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 15:30:13 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-125-112.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:20 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-3-41.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:36:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-3-41.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 15:36:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:39:08 <_3b> Guthur: did you mean to expand to (list in_position in_color) rather than '(in_position in_color)? 15:39:23 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has joined #lisp 15:40:13 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:40:35 _3b, where's that 15:41:06 *_3b* would probably define things in terms of CL symbols rather than strings too, with some default translation (- to camelCase oe whatever), with option to specify an exact string if needed 15:41:19 <_3b> line 18 in annotation 15:41:41 *_3b* supposes not given the variable name 15:41:42 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:41:52 asdf25 [~jeff@pool-173-79-244-237.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:14 <_3b> but it makes sense that the with-foreign-slots things aren't used in that case 15:43:02 it does? 15:43:08 *_3b* isn't sure what's going on theer actually 15:43:34 hehe 15:43:48 <_3b> the warning at the top is from the with-foreign-slots on line 58 if i understand correctly 15:44:01 yeah, that method actually came from feature creep 15:44:02 <_3b> it uses a once=-only to bind the PTR on line 62 15:44:27 feature creep for the macro 15:44:36 <_3b> but nothing in that method actually uses the symbol-macros from the with-foreign-slots, so the once-only'd rebinding of ptr is never used 15:45:37 <_3b> actually, maybe that whole method body was supposed to have morer ` or something 15:46:03 <_3b> or the LOOP part at least, i guess the with-foreign-slots probably is supposed to be in teh expansion 15:46:05 pnq [~nick@ACA32405.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:39 <_3b> expanding to a set of SETF forms that reference the foreign-slots might make it sense 15:46:53 yeah, I'm kind of leaning that way 15:48:01 as for the symbols instead of strings, it's sort of on my wish list 15:49:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-109.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:51:44 -!- mcstar [~mcstar@adsl-89-132-23-116.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:09 hi, i'm having a problem with sbcl if anyone wants to help... the ctrl-c interrupt isn't working whenever i try to use it while my code is running (in either slime or terminal), except that it does work if i do it within about 1 second after starting the execution... my sbcl has threading enabled but my code isn't threaded, and my code calls to clsql-mysql... any ideas would be appreciated, not being able to interrupt my code in sl 15:52:09 ime is quite annoying 15:52:58 asdf25: Are you using Linux? 15:53:08 yes, 64bit 15:53:35 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:51 Is it only when using clsql-mysql, or is it for any long-running task? e.g. (sleep 60) 15:54:29 hello lispers :) 15:54:47 it works fine for sleep 15:54:50 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:55:28 asdf25: I wonder if the C side of things is fiddling with signal handling in some way. 15:55:40 in libmysqlclient or similar 15:55:57 the code isn't executing clsql most of the time too, i think most of the execution time is doing other stuff that should be purely lisp 15:56:57 *Xach* has nothin', sorry 15:58:41 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:11 well i commented out the calls to clsql and now ctrl-c is working, guess i'll try not to call clsql if i want to be able to ctrl-c anything 15:59:32 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:41 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e179019015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:29 jmbr [~jmbr@166.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:02:08 francogrex [~user@109.130.85.2] has joined #lisp 16:02:23 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:45 littlebobby [~bob@unaffiliated/littlebobby] has joined #lisp 16:03:57 -!- jingtao`` [~jingtaozf@123.120.26.167] has quit [Quit: bye] 16:04:07 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:06:09 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:08:05 yep that's it, a single call to clsql:query with mysql breaks ctrl-c for the process, suppose i'll post to the mailing list 16:09:32 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:47 Thanks ^^ 16:11:52 -!- Necrocyber [~Necrocybe@186.213.116.226] has left #lisp 16:12:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-020.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:14:23 pnkfelix1 [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:15:30 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:15:45 Joreji [~thomas@66-020.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:16:03 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@166.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:39 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 16:21:58 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:23:56 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 16:24:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-020.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:24:37 mbrezu [~user@178.156.179.144] has joined #lisp 16:25:22 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:32 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:25:41 -!- mbrezu [~user@178.156.179.144] has left #lisp 16:30:14 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:33:02 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:34 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host81-131-242-39.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:35:09 *Xach* wonders how the game jam is going 16:35:15 italic [~italic@cpe-67-242-144-94.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:47 is there a destructuring-bind for an array, or must i convert it to a list? 16:36:38 italic: there isn't. it's a fairly simple macro to make if you want it. 16:36:57 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:05 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-248-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:37:15 Well, I suppose it's simple if you don't use &key, &rest, nesting, etc. 16:39:47 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 16:39:59 *_3b* didn't actually get to the point of working on 'game' stuff before time ran out :( 16:41:34 -!- morphling [~stefan@95.117.91.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:03 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755b5b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:37 _3b: do you know of any cl-opengl tutorials that use VBO's? trying to research opengl using begin/end gets me yelled at for being out of date :/ 16:44:22 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:45:00 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 16:45:00 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 16:45:00 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 16:46:03 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 16:46:35 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:47:08 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:47:32 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-134-53.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:32 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-134-53.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:47:32 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:48:03 sacho [~sacho@77.70.111.88] has joined #lisp 16:48:15 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-141-209-189.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:38 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50:01 does one have to use mem-aref to each place to set an array on a cffi cstruct? 16:50:08 or is it possible to pass a list or CL array 16:50:24 pkhuong: did you ever benchmark SBCL safepoints with the HotSpot-style read from a global (not thread-local) address? It should be as fast as the "thread-base-tn minus offset" test instruction, right? 16:51:21 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:51:50 nikodemus [~nikodemus@82.181.63.174] has joined #lisp 16:51:50 I'm a tiny sea slug. 16:51:55 italic, http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/8042/vertex-array-object-opengl 16:52:12 that's not CL but it is easy to convert to cl-opengl 16:52:25 VAOs are pretty good 16:52:41 you obviously use VBOs with them 16:53:36 Guthur: thanks. begin/end is very straight-forward to me, but i understand there are performance issues 16:54:04 once you set up a VAO it becomes very simple to use 16:54:12 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:21 I just create a small macro (with-vao ...) 16:55:17 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-248-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:55:48 italic, are you familiar with GLSL as well? 16:56:09 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 16:56:38 i understand what it does, but not enough to code in it 16:58:18 loke_ [~elias@bb220-255-86-123.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:58:47 Guthur: to understand the big picture, with cl-opengl, are you just setting up the environment, then loading shader files to do the heavy lifting? 16:59:19 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA32405.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:59:54 if I have a symbol's name in a value, how can I use that to access the symbol in a specific package? 16:59:55 the shader will be executed on the data you set in the VBO 17:00:02 ezakimak: FIND-SYMBOL 17:00:05 thx 17:00:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:00:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 17:00:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:00:18 italic, but yes you assumption is pretty much all of it 17:00:24 easy isn't it, hehe 17:00:39 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:57 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:01:17 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 17:01:18 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 17:01:18 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 17:01:35 Guthur: easy if i knew glsl! 17:01:39 -!- loke [~elias@bb116-15-153-196.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:02:15 italic, http://wiki.gamedev.net/index.php/D3DBook:Table_Of_Contents 17:02:31 that is a very good reference for some shading algorithms 17:02:45 it's HLSL, but it's easy to convert to GLSL 17:05:11 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:05:13 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@82.181.63.174] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:05:23 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:06:34 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:06:40 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:06:45 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-18.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:06:55 paul0 [~user@189.114.207.25.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:07:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:08:29 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:15:16 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:16:31 -!- sacho [~sacho@77.70.111.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:17:02 -!- pnkfelix1 [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:17:35 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18:11 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:15 Triplefault_ [~Mouse@adsl-72-152-227-134.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:26 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 17:19:27 -!- lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: lemonodor] 17:19:32 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 17:19:33 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 17:19:33 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 17:19:45 agumonkey [agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:17 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:32 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755b5b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:35 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-215-225.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21:53 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755b5b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:09 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-157-205.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:09 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-157-205.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:24:09 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:25:21 -!- beach` is now known as beach 17:27:17 rpg_ [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 17:27:30 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Client Quit] 17:27:43 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:46 -!- silenius [~silenus@p54947328.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:30:38 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:34:15 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:35:32 -!- greaver [~J@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:00 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 17:37:11 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-125-112.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:37:26 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-5.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:38:22 Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:38:42 Bronsa [~brace@host78-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:41:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:45:12 xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 17:46:25 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 17:46:55 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 17:47:05 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:47:24 Mouse [~Mouse@adsl-72-145-216-149.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:36 BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-246-224.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 17:49:53 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.25] has joined #lisp 17:49:53 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.25] has quit [Changing host] 17:49:53 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:51:28 -!- Triplefault_ [~Mouse@adsl-72-152-227-134.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:53:22 -!- loke_ is now known as loke 17:55:01 napping [~brandon@c-98-228-139-19.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:22 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:37 I'm trying to find the source of an old joke. Does anyone remember an old usenet post about loops/recursion that suggested something like (defun factorial (n) #1=(if (<= n 1) 1 (* n (let ((n (1- n))) #1#) ? 17:58:01 *Xach* hasn't seen that one before 17:58:49 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:23 So far I've just turned up the paper by Christian Queinnec about how to successfully compile such things 18:00:54 nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-68-10.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:01:21 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:29 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has joined #lisp 18:02:13 (I can't help, foggily recall seeing this in passing, but:) it would seem the joke's on you! (-: 18:02:45 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:04:11 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-54-207.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:05:46 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-72-5.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 18:05:47 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:00 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:06:22 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:08:26 what is a member of a list? a) a variable b) an actual value/object c) a binding to a value/object? 18:08:59 ezakimak: an actual value 18:09:12 rgibbs [~chatzilla@2965.artic.edu] has joined #lisp 18:09:26 ok, so how is it that I've seen examples where the same object can be in two lists at the same time? 18:09:34 how does that work? 18:10:17 Olin Shivers' "Stylish Lisp programming techniques" is similar 18:10:24 ezakimak: That just seems like a natural thing to be able to do. Why couldn't the same object be stored in two different lists? 18:10:39 Xach: can you be in two houses at once? 18:10:41 ezakimak: Don't mind me, I'm talking about entirely useless things 18:10:43 because if the list member is the *location* of the value itself? 18:10:50 ezakimak: many "values" are refences to the actual object. 18:11:01 oh 18:11:16 gigamonkey: I'm in a list of people who bowl on tuesdays and people who live in Maine! 18:11:18 And the ones that aren't behave as if they are (since they're immutable objects) unless you peek under the covers with EQ. 18:11:27 so how can I tell when a value is the actual thing or just a reference to the actual thing 18:11:28 ? 18:11:35 Xach: *you* aren't in the list. 18:11:43 ezakimak: it doesn't matter. 18:11:59 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 18:12:00 so, conceptually treat all values as if they are references to the actual value? 18:12:12 Rather just consider that you always have the thing. 18:12:30 gigamonkey: This is not a pipe. 18:12:33 -!- BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-246-224.csuohio.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:36 but then understanding how the same thing can be in two places is complicated 18:12:40 But this is: | 18:13:41 ezakimak: okay. So maybe you want to think of it they way you said: all values are references. 18:14:02 But you never have to dereference them (they way you have to, for instance, dereference pointers in C) so it doesn't matter much. 18:14:24 well, what I want is a correct mental map/understanding, so if thinking of it that way will be wrong in some cases or confuse me 18:14:43 is 3 a 3 or a reference to the value 3? 18:14:50 i keep falling into this trap of wanting to understand how it works underneath, despite the books warning that I'll just get confused trying 18:14:52 italic: could be either. 18:14:55 it's a value... i think 18:15:04 gigamonkey: numbers can't be symbols, can they? 18:15:15 a symbol's name can be a number, yes 18:15:18 '|3| 18:15:28 yes, but that's a symbol that can't be seen as a number 18:15:29 Well, that's not a number. It's name is a string that happens to look like a number. 18:15:35 if it were only 3 it'd be parsed as a number 18:16:11 number ::== [sign] [digit] [.] digit+ 18:16:14 (setf *read-base* 2) (symbolp '3) => t 18:16:16 Landr, you must distinguish between how the reader reads and actual objects 18:16:17 problem solved 18:16:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-109.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:16:28 hmm 18:16:48 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:52 stassats: of course at that point it's not a number. (Which you, know, I know.) 18:17:16 ezakimak: so for almost all objects they "actual object" is some memory somewhere in the heap. But all you ever have is a reference to it which knows what kind of object it is referencing. 18:17:37 (defvar 3 11), problem solved again 18:17:42 and that reference is what gets placed as a member in a list, or bound by a variable? 18:18:03 You can't ever get at the "actual object". So you might as well consider the reference to be the object. But it is a kind of object that can be copied around. 18:18:04 Yes. 18:18:31 so it's really the reference that is moved around? 18:18:35 it's pointers all the way down 18:18:54 Landr, well, unless it's been internally optimized for some types, I believe 18:19:26 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:19:59 so, if I have a number value, that represents a counter, do I ever get to change the actual location that stores 3 to now store 4, or do I really change the reference so that conceptually it now points to a new location containing the object "4"? 18:20:16 the latter. 18:20:24 Conceptually. 18:20:27 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-137-33-100.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:28 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-137-33-100.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:20:28 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:20:49 so every number that exists is in memory somewhere? :> 18:20:57 so conceptually every different value of each number type is a unique object? 18:21:00 Landr: well, numbers are normally not implemented that way. 18:21:16 ezakimak: yes. 18:21:34 so, does that mean that no actual objects are ever mutable--but that merely references are mutable? 18:21:41 No. 18:21:44 (conceptually) 18:21:50 objects have to be created as well 18:21:50 A cons cell, to take the simplest example, is mutable. 18:22:02 objects can contain references 18:22:03 I'm talking about atoms 18:22:12 When you (setf (car x) 10) you are actually changing the memory that represents the cons cell. 18:22:29 because setf is magic :< 18:22:31 right, but that's not an atom, correct? 18:22:32 I wouldn't say that references are mutable. 18:22:44 Rather, things that can hold references are often mutable. 18:22:44 well, the places that hold them 18:22:50 but a corns is two references, no? 18:22:53 err, cons* 18:23:12 Landr: yes. 18:23:26 or... do you change the pointer that points to the cons to point to another cons that points to the two new things 18:23:40 Landr: you can do either, depending on what you want. 18:23:43 *Landr* descends into the abyss of ***&*&*&&&*&&*&a 18:23:58 (let ((x (cons 1 2))) (setf (car x) 10)) changes the original cons. 18:24:09 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:24:16 (let ((x (cons 1 2))) (setf x (cons 10 2))) changes the binding X to refer to a new cons. 18:24:20 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:24:45 so, setf places are really locations that store references, and you're changing what reference is in that place? 18:24:54 Yes. 18:24:59 lightbulb! 18:25:10 (setf ezakimak-lightbulb t) 18:25:15 :> 18:25:15 see also: rplaca 18:25:21 (And occassionally smaller things such as (setf (bit bit-array 0) 1) 18:25:23 Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:38 but is it specified to do that? or can it change the values directly? 18:25:40 so there are more data structures than cons cells? 18:25:48 of course 18:25:48 ezakimak: oodles 18:25:52 ezakimak: many, many, many. 18:26:03 right. nm. 18:26:04 ezakimak: how are you learning Lisp? 18:26:20 arrays wouldn't be implemented via cons. 18:26:29 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:26:30 Landr: is what specified to do what? 18:26:31 they could be, i guess 18:26:31 but I was thinking that hashes may very well be 18:26:34 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 18:26:43 gigamonkey: setf only changing references, not the values they point to 18:26:43 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:19 traversing a list is O(n), hash tables (should be) are O(1) 18:27:25 okay, so in most data structures, they are also like cons in that they contain places that hold references? 18:27:26 Landr: it can change values as well 18:27:32 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 18:27:34 Landr: well, SETF is pretty flexible. So depending on what thing you're operating on it can change different things. 18:27:37 Landr: depends on what you are doing 18:27:41 hmm 18:27:48 See my bit array example above. 18:28:03 I guess conceptually you could say a bit-array is an array of references to either 0 or 1. 18:28:16 but that'd be one heck of a waste of memory 18:28:21 But in reality it's going to be what you'd expect: a compact representation of bits. 18:28:22 hashtables are more likely to use a vector for storing data 18:28:26 And setf'ing one bit is going to flip one bit. 18:28:30 IMHO it's easier to understand if you draw the memory layout and the changes 18:29:19 memory is memory, bits are bits, it's how you treat them that determines objects 18:29:29 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:36 and in higher languages' case, how you treat them is pretty much fixed 18:29:40 ok, so if I treat a list as a singly linked list, w/cons cells as each node (which it is), I can detatch a the last item in the list by setf'ng the penultimate cons cell's 2nd location to nil, right? 18:29:52 Landr: you'd be surprised at how flexible lisp can be 18:30:37 p_l|backup: well, you still can't do pointer arithmetic 18:30:43 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 18:30:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 18:30:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:30:44 not that you need/want to 18:30:45 i can 18:30:46 oconnore: ... you sure? 18:30:50 :> 18:30:56 *Xach* sap+'s 18:30:56 you don't have pointers in lisp :P 18:31:00 You can do pointer arithmetic in Lisp? 18:31:04 or i missed them entirely 18:31:10 because i sure went looking for them 18:31:14 it's not exactly portable... but SETF afaik is in a way simplification of ZetaLisp's locatives 18:31:18 Well, most things are pointers, you just can't manipulate them, I don't think. 18:31:20 you might have pointers when dealing with ffi though, right? 18:31:26 it's not part of the standard, but some of the FFI's may allow you to 18:31:40 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:45 brb 18:31:50 i can just imagine some C interface initializer returning a pointer as an object handle 18:32:03 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@d64-180-206-148.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:06 mmm, not standard. i mean i can dig into the compiler and call unexported functions, but that doesn't make it part of the langauge. 18:32:26 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 18:32:27 or you can use the public exported API of widely popular libraries. 18:32:28 hwo about that one? 18:32:41 it's better, you can call exported functions, see sb-sys:sap-ref* 18:33:32 *Xach* wonders how you would multiply a sap-ref 18:33:34 well, i will look out of curiosity, but my point was that it isn't a part of common lisp itself 18:33:42 the standard 18:34:13 _3b, still around? 18:34:18 Xach: but sap-plussing recursively? 18:34:26 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-109.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:34:41 stassats: he was referring to the *, I think. 18:34:55 stassats knows a bad joke when he sees it 18:35:04 s/but/by/ 18:35:05 wccoder [~wccoder@d64-180-206-148.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:14 or you could see how list* multiplies lists and do the same 18:36:38 Is it SLIME or Emacs that's highlighting any function name that starts with "check-" in bright red? 18:36:55 emacs, i bet 18:36:58 Grrrr. 18:37:19 Is there some M-. equivalent that can jump me to who the heck is doing that? 18:38:15 M-x rgrep through emacs code-base? 18:38:25 Thanks. :-| 18:38:47 M-x describe-face first 18:39:03 gigamonkey: for me, it's from font-lock-keywords-alist under lisp-mode. 18:39:12 ("(\\(check-\\(\\s_\\|\\w\\)*\\)" 1 font-lock-warning-face) 18:39:21 kanru: it's rather generic 18:39:33 Xach: in lisp-mode.el.gz ? 18:39:40 gigamonkey: I just did C-h v 18:39:52 gigamonkey: Not sure what initialized it 18:40:20 i have font-lock-maximum-decoration for lisp-mode set to nil, it get rids of any such atrocities 18:40:25 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:42 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:40:59 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 18:41:15 slime/contrib/slime-fontifying-fu.el inflicts that on you. 18:41:44 rme: Yup. Just found that. 18:43:00 indeed, the emacs by default only does that to check-type 18:43:33 *gigamonkey* dreams of a day when programming tools have a richer semantic notion of what the hell is going on. 18:43:44 i don't see the rationale for doing this, though 18:43:54 I'm just going to sit back and wait for the community lisp machine to fix it 18:43:59 snearch [~snearch@f053008216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:50 *stassats* finds (setq slime-additional-font-lock-keywords nil) in his .emacs 18:45:37 stassats: ah. I was just going to ask because font-lock-maximum-decoration didn't do anything for this. 18:45:44 jmbr [~jmbr@166.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:46:53 -!- napping [~brandon@c-98-228-139-19.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:47:35 gigamonkey: stop dreaming, write lisp meta tools! 18:47:58 !@$!@#$ That didn't fix it. 18:48:41 I have a macro that expands to this http://paste.lisp.org/+2LVJ/2 18:48:56 Ah. Probably need to actually change font-lock-. Or restart emacs. 18:49:10 the problem is that the defmethod seems to get eval'd before the class and struct get defined 18:49:23 gigamonkey: by the way, that's giving me the idea of a book you could write, explaining what occured to all those nice and smart lisp systems. eg the programmer apprentice, or Harald Wertz works. 18:49:44 which is odd considering the order, any solution? 18:50:02 gigamonkey: it's probably linked to the overcoming of CL, since they were written in older lisp, and nobody felt compelled to upgrade them to CL... 18:50:11 HG` [~HG@p5DC0593E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:13 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 18:51:04 Guthur: What's that with-gensyms bologna? 18:51:44 Xach, not needed? 18:51:59 Guthur: That would normally be used in the macroexpander, not the expansion 18:52:31 oh, right, yeah lack of experience on my part I think, I couldn't decide the best place 18:52:41 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:54 Guthur: maybe it's meddling with the toplevelness of the subsequent forms. 18:52:58 gigamonkey: yeah, it infects font-lock from this variable 18:53:08 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:53:12 <_3b> Guthur: back now 18:53:33 so you need to do (font-lock-remove-keywords 'lisp-mode slime-additional-font-lock-keywords) in the running emacs and then set it to nil in your .emacs 18:53:38 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 18:53:57 _3b, just a question regarding the macro expansion, see 19:48 18:54:16 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 18:54:24 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 18:54:24 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 18:54:33 <_3b> Guthur: yeah, what Xach said is pretty much my answer too 18:55:33 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 18:56:29 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 18:57:13 So this is what I did: (font-lock-remove-keywords 'lisp-mode '(("(\\(check-\\(\\s_\\|\\w\\)*\\)" 1 font-lock-warning-face))) 18:58:43 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:46 wzergw [~hynek@ip-62-245-66-12.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 18:58:52 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-18.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:00:06 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:00:14 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:00:32 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:01:13 londonmet050 [~londonmet@unaffiliated/londonmet050] has joined #lisp 19:01:35 I forgot the lisp book name someone recommended 19:01:40 Can some one point me 19:01:50 londonmet050: Practical Common Lisp is nice, as is Paradigms of AI Programming 19:02:36 _3b, Xach: I think you are correct, but I must be missing something, it now warns about undefined variable #:foreign-struct 19:02:53 Xach: there is some other book 19:02:54 Guthur: what does the expansion look like? 19:02:59 which is freely available 19:03:02 londonmet050: There are a lot. Where did you get the advice? 19:03:20 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:03:23 <_3b> Guthur: probably need a , somewhere that uses foreign-struct 19:03:31 londonmet050 >> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/491932/what-is-the-best-books-on-lisp 19:04:20 *agumonkey* likes plurals 19:04:45 Xach, _3b: yeah found it, I left out a ' 19:04:55 That is not a very good answer. 19:05:03 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.210.89] has joined #lisp 19:05:41 what's good in stackoverflow? any schmuck can answer questions 19:05:45 londonmet050: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ has the text of Practical Common Lisp. 19:05:46 In an initform I really wanted the symbol #:foreign-struct 19:06:02 Hi all! 19:06:28 Guthur: everything working nicely now? 19:06:50 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:06:55 Xach, soon find out 19:08:28 Xach, yep running fine 19:08:33 cheers 19:08:34 sweet 19:09:04 kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-59-45.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:09:10 -!- nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-68-10.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:09:36 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 19:13:46 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:14:01 nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-18-206.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:14:03 Guthur: do you know if you can request a opengl-es context with cl-opengl? 19:14:05 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:14:34 -!- kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-59-45.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:14:38 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@d64-180-206-148.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:14:42 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:15:19 <_3b> italic: on a pc or a mobile device? you might be able to on a pc, dunno how well it would work... real ES is a bit less likely to work i think 19:16:22 _3b: on a pc, eventually i want to target a mobile device, but i'd like to prototype with cl-opengl 19:16:43 <_3b> italic: try it and let us know? :) 19:17:29 <_3b> italic: if it works, i'd expect the high-level stuff (gl: package) to not be as useful, so would probably need to use %gl more 19:17:40 <_3b> (assuming it even binds the functions, don't know if it does or not) 19:17:44 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:22:34 brodo [~brodo@p5B02540A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:52 <_3b> italic: looks %gl does have bindings for the ES compat stuff 19:24:13 <_3b> so that just leaves the question of whether anything is present in both normal GL and in ES with different signatures 19:24:35 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:25:55 _3b: would i have to setup something different when loading cl-opengl, or just restrict myself to es commands? 19:26:17 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 19:27:11 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:28:23 what would you use for context creation, I thought that was the responsibility of glop et al. 19:30:04 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 19:34:01 -!- c|mell [~cmell@178.175.101.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:38:18 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:39:43 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 19:40:20 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:27 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.85.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:00 <_3b> italic: i think it is an option when you create the context, so depends on how you do that 19:47:08 cym13 [~user@ANantes-553-1-62-125.w92-144.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:52:28 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC0593E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:53:22 -!- cym13 [~user@ANantes-553-1-62-125.w92-144.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 19:54:24 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: away!] 19:55:13 in androids case it mainly support OpenGL ES 1.0, which reflections opengl 1.3 19:55:19 which is pretty pants to be honest 19:56:08 jmbr_ [~jmbr@175.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:56:59 macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.214.220] has joined #lisp 19:57:19 doesn't android support webgl, which is es 2 based? 19:58:14 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@166.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:58:23 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:01:56 -!- ryankask [~ryan_lang@5ad7a8fb.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:02:15 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:02:17 italic: GLES2 is optional 20:04:05 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:05:49 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 20:05:54 wccoder [~wccoder@d64-180-206-148.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:11 pnq [~nick@AC814BB7.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:31 /whois wccoder 20:06:53 meh. new client. 20:07:47 -!- wccoder [~wccoder@d64-180-206-148.bchsia.telus.net] has left #lisp 20:10:17 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053008216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:11:38 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:14:20 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 20:14:23 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:15:11 -!- pnq [~nick@AC814BB7.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:20:18 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:21:06 lemonodor [~lemonodor@nat/google/x-kfnpodalvpdfufjp] has joined #lisp 20:28:32 BrianRice` [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:11 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:31:12 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 20:34:40 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:06 Hm, i've got a really weird error here. When I try to start SBCL, something goes wrong with .sbclrc and I'm left with a «Maximum error nesting depth exceeded» error and a 9210-deep stack trace. I took out the hard drive and put it back in a few minutes ago, but there don't seem to be files missing... 20:38:24 my .sbclrc just loads quicklisp. 20:39:51 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C2CEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:13 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:24 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:16 -!- basho___ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-069-148.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:05 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@174.59.223.208] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:42:13 have you tried reading that stack trace? 20:42:45 Not getting much out of it beyond something in the quicklisp files, but I guess I should go deeper... 20:44:06 Is there some way to make it output to a file? 20:44:26 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:27 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:44:45 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:08 clhs dribble 20:46:28 Ah, thanks. 20:48:51 Oh, that just prints the error, not the trace.. hm. 20:48:58 -!- rgibbs [~chatzilla@2965.artic.edu] has left #lisp 20:49:11 HET2 [~diman@host109-153-170-244.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:17 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C2CEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:38 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:51:53 that's probably because the backtrace is output to *error-output* 20:52:35 I can bind that to a file instead, right? 20:52:57 you can bind anything 20:53:05 Cool. 20:53:48 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:54:07 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 20:56:53 Bike: do (setf *debug-io* (make-two-way-stream *standard-input* (make-synonym-stream '*standard-output*))) along with DRIBBLE 20:57:20 -!- xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:58:12 Dribble goes after that? 20:58:21 doesn't matter 20:58:43 Okay. 20:59:23 Well, now it has the error plus the debug interface, but still no stack trace. 20:59:44 I tried redirecting stderr from the command line, too, but that didn't work. 21:00:46 symbole [~user@50-56-28-56.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 21:02:28 that's because it uses terminal-io, which does some tricks with the terminal, that's why you can't redirect it 21:02:34 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 21:02:42 but with dribble the way i showed, it should work, and it does work for me 21:02:57 Well, it didn't. 21:03:19 eh, wait, I shouldn't need to do this anyway 21:04:21 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has joined #lisp 21:04:30 well, try setting (setf *error-output* (make-synonym-stream '*standard-output*)) too 21:05:04 I'm just using SBCL's trace navigator stuff. Should have been doing that anyway, sorry. 21:05:22 Looks like ASDF through several hundred errors with regards to quicklisp.asd. This is pretty werd. 21:05:43 Bike: did you have your clocks screwed? 21:06:00 I don't know what that means? 21:06:01 i've witnessed before asdf going circles on files in the future 21:06:32 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host78-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:06:43 since a string is actually an array underneath, does that mean (at least conceptually) each individual character position is a place that can be modified? 21:06:55 you've seen the future? 21:07:44 string is not an array underneath, it is an array 21:07:46 <_3b> sure, you can modify the contents of a (non-literal) string 21:07:59 in place? w/o creating a whole new string? 21:08:09 setf aref, I thought. 21:08:17 sure, what made you think that way? 21:08:30 Or char. 21:08:53 (setf aref), (setf char), (setf schar), (setf elt), whatever you fancy 21:08:53 just continuing where I left off understanding variables/places/references/values 21:08:59 <_3b> (keep in mind there are strings you aren't allowed to modify for other reasons though) 21:09:29 how can I tell? 21:09:45 <_3b> know the language :/ 21:10:01 <_3b> literal strings are the main one, i'm pretty sure that " returns a literal string 21:10:03 if I attempt to modify a string I shouldn't will it break or give me an error? 21:10:12 no 21:10:15 <_3b> i don't think upi are allowed to modify a string that names a symbol either 21:10:17 undefined consequences 21:10:22 it'll fuck you over in the future 21:10:33 <_3b> s/upi/you/ 21:10:40 stassats: "undefined" is a very nice word 21:10:58 symbol names are strings, for example. try to nreverse a symbol name, and you will see hilarious consequences, MAYBE. 21:10:59 sometimes it means that you mistakenly reimplemented function-local storage 21:11:16 so (defvar s "abcd") (setf (aref s 1) #\z)) is *bad* ? 21:11:28 it has undefined consequences (: 21:11:32 so, don't modify things you don't know where comes from 21:11:34 so it could crash? 21:11:39 <_3b> ezakimak: there could be another "abcd" somewhere else in the source using that same storage 21:11:39 so if you like your demons nasal, then it might be good! 21:12:09 any things, lists, strings, arrays, if you're not sure that it isn't fresh and not shared with something else 21:12:10 is there any way to enable some sort of warning for that data? 21:12:21 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:12:23 no 21:12:26 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:12:27 good to know 21:12:27 don't think there is, no. 21:12:48 sbcl only has static analysis for literal modifications 21:12:49 generally speaking, avoid destructive operations on stuff you're not sure you consed up fresh yourself (: 21:13:19 some things are specified to cons afresh 21:13:21 but what is (defvar s "abcd") ? 21:13:31 or be boggled down with questions like "why my function works ok only once after redefinition?" 21:13:36 It seems to be attempting to open quicklisp.asd too many times. 21:13:44 -!- paul0 [~user@189.114.207.25.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:13:56 should I do (defvar s (string "abcd")) instead? 21:14:11 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:22 make-array and :initial-contents 21:14:39 copy-seq would be enough 21:14:43 <_3b> you shouldn't do "(defvar s" anything :p 21:14:44 or that, yes! 21:14:47 copy-seq is better 21:14:48 <_3b> (defvar *s* something) 21:15:04 sorry. (let ((s "abcd")) ...) 21:15:09 <_3b> or that 21:15:17 but then I can't modify s, correct? 21:15:20 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:15:31 <_3b> no, you can't modify the contents of the string stored in s 21:15:34 i mean, i can't modify the string s refers to 21:15:36 <_3b> you can rebind s 21:15:39 <_3b> right 21:15:55 okay, so I have to do make-array instead? 21:16:01 the consequences of you modifying it are unspecified 21:16:03 (copy-seq "abcde") 21:16:03 this seems like a common use case 21:16:18 copy-seq; make-array works too, though. 21:16:24 what antifuchs said. 21:16:27 you can use either, but copy-seq is more concise (: 21:16:40 ezakimak: what seems like a common use case? 21:16:40 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B0246B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:01 creating strings and messing with them 21:17:20 if you read them from somewhere, they'll be fresh 21:17:34 it's just the string literals you put in source code that are risky 21:17:34 (format nil "~a" "abcd") 21:17:37 (map 'string #'identity "abcd") 21:17:39 or the ones you pass on the command line 21:17:40 quiz time: is it safe to modify (format nil "~a" "foo") the result of? 21:17:41 Yup. It's pretty common. 21:17:46 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:17:54 stassats: I'm guessing yes. But it'd be worth checking. 21:18:43 the same goes to princing to w-o-t-s 21:18:45 "format can generate and return a string or output to destination." implies a fresh string perhaps. 21:18:49 wtf, I didn't realize you could do (format string-with-fill-pointer "~a" foo) 21:18:51 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B02540A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:18:51 -!- brodo_ is now known as brodo 21:19:12 antifuchs: yup. 21:19:36 sbcl always reminds you that when you forget T or NIL 21:19:39 It's a good thing the standard isn't being updated. We're still not up to speed on the 15 year-old one. 21:19:40 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 21:19:55 aren't noobies great? everybody learns something :) 21:20:06 ezakimak: indeed! 21:20:20 Huh. I set the system date and time (it was wrong anyway) and now it works. 21:20:22 but if you forget the output specifier and use a string with a fill pointer as the format string, sbcl won't warn. "oops" (: 21:20:25 Thanks, stassats! 21:20:50 antifuchs, good to know 21:21:23 it shouldn't warn for variables in the output spec position anyway, afaict 21:22:10 Bike: yeah, such bugs are hard to catch 21:22:56 Well, glad I did. Wouldn't have figured that without your mention of clocks... 21:23:02 Why does ASDF need to know the time, though? 21:23:25 to see if the file was already compiled 21:23:38 Oh. Makes sense. 21:23:41 Bike: modification times, yeah 21:24:05 Setting the system to be seven years in the future from when it was seems to have done the trick :) 21:24:29 -!- HET2 [~diman@host109-153-170-244.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:24:34 Bike, you might also try the touch command :) 21:24:48 or maybe asdf freaks out that it's still used in 2018? 21:24:55 What would that do? 21:25:04 let's you change the time on the files 21:25:06 stassats: 2034! 21:25:07 stassats: No, the computer thought it was 2004, it's not my usual one >_> 21:25:28 oh. nm. "in the future *from when it was*". missed that part 21:26:27 Heh, now I want to see an «Error: Files have already been compiled in the future» 21:27:31 i thought this was fixed in the recent asdf 21:27:41 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.214.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:27:54 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:08 Bike: (asdf:asdf-version)? 21:28:22 2.010 21:28:40 2.011.3: fix infinite loop when a .asd file has a timestamp in the future. 21:28:55 i don't know whether that affects source files 21:28:57 Can I upgrade that with quicklisp? 21:29:04 Well, an .asd was the problem, so. 21:29:28 Quicklisp comes with a pretty up-to-date ASDF which I think you should be using if you're using quicklisp. 21:31:41 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-33-100.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:58 -!- tic [~tic@c83-249-193-119.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:32:24 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#lisp 22:36:55 tic [~tic@c83-249-193-119.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:38:11 -!- pers [~user@185.sub-75-240-48.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:15 -!- tic [~tic@c83-249-193-119.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:41:42 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:58 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:47:44 <_3b> beach: is sicl cons-high test |tree-equal test-not=eq 5b| supposed to use 'eq insetad of #'eq? 22:48:16 tic [~tic@c83-249-193-119.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:50:57 -!- londonmet050 [~londonmet@unaffiliated/londonmet050] has quit [Quit: londonmet050] 22:53:45 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:51 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 22:57:38 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:58:11 -!- mustapha [~mustapha@unaffiliated/mustapha] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:15 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:59:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:59:32 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-151-129.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:15 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 23:02:19 Geef [~Geef@32.Red-83-61-34.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:37 -!- tic [~tic@c83-249-193-119.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:37 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-131-96.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:41 Hello all. 23:08:47 howdy nyef 23:09:25 heya, nyef. 23:09:48 -!- atomx [~user@86.35.150.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:38 beach: Ping? 23:12:40 slyrus: Care to give http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/notes-on-clim-silica.org a read-through and tell me what you think? 23:13:39 nyef: I'll read through as well if you don't mind (: 23:13:47 antifuchs: Go right ahead. 23:16:16 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:20:07 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-190-145.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 23:20:30 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.135.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:33 where is this climII work taking place? 23:22:20 Fade: How do you mean? 23:22:31 -!- benny [~benny@i577A7D37.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:22:42 The CLIM II standard was written ages ago, as was the first implementations. 23:22:53 ... as were? 23:23:00 Something like that. 23:23:19 heh 23:23:36 I've been trying to figure out what the CLIM II spec actually calls for, which hasn't exactly been easy. 23:23:51 is there a mailing list where design discussion is taking place? 23:24:05 tic [~tic@c83-249-193-119.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:24:15 Ah, not that I'm aware of. 23:24:17 Fade: nope, only random outbursts here 23:24:38 i'm a bit hazy about clim in general, but have seen beach talking about doing a successor a few times. 23:24:44 I thought that's what you were talking about. 23:24:56 At one point I was considering a private email exchange with slyrus and beach, and that may yet happen, but it's mostly just been here. 23:25:08 *nod* 23:25:18 Yeah, I'm not at all convinced about the direction beach has gone with his stuff. 23:25:56 benny [~benny@i577A7B66.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:25:59 At the same time, it might well turn out to make sense. I'm finding that some of the bits of the CLIM II spec that seemed crazy turn out to actually be fairly reasonable. 23:26:21 ncow [~ncow@unaffiliated/necrocow] has joined #lisp 23:27:13 this is the spec bending YOU to its will 23:27:22 Heh. Maybe so. 23:27:33 be careful, abyss staring is said to be unsettling 23:27:41 Indeed. 23:27:51 I'm thinking to torch the whole "design" mess. 23:28:36 oh, if you're doing clim bridge-burning work, I should recommend to you this: http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Quartz-Graphics-Kaufmann-Computer/dp/0123694736 23:29:19 it explains pretty nicely the design decisions that went into the quartz rendering library, and might be inspirational. I've given the same recommendation to beach a while ago 23:29:32 Hrm... I wonder if I can find that through interlibrary loan? 23:29:52 -!- Guest9253 is now known as xristos 23:29:53 might... it seems to be a fairly popular book 23:30:17 pretty much /the/ reference about this particular graphics library (: 23:31:28 quartz, as in the display pdf system in OSX? 23:31:44 yeah 23:31:51 Hrm. Not in nhu-pac... And I don't appear to have bookmarked the other local ILL system I stumbled upon a couple weeks ago. :-/ 23:32:35 MasterBismuth [~MasterBis@184.99.12.152] has joined #lisp 23:32:43 if you ever come over to the west coast, I can lend you mine (: 23:32:57 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:33:07 but if you have any serious mac developer friends, ask them for it. I am fairly sure they might have it (: 23:33:27 phua [~phua@adsl-99-63-93-4.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:00 ... and the only hit in the other catalog is "Beginning iPhone development". Two ILL catalogs, no hits. :-/ 23:36:55 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B7EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:37:01 )-: 23:37:29 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:37:37 Not in either of the two MA ILL nets I can get to, either. 23:38:07 product specific technology books get mouldy so fast, i've found most libraries never bother to acquire them. 23:38:30 Okay, thank you for the recommendation, but I'm going to have to think carefully before I follow through on it. 23:39:44 I see (: 23:39:59 no worries, it's just something that might help with any lower-level drawing decisions 23:43:31 Mmm. The thing is, while CLIM II 13.2, protocol class DESIGN, paragraph two claims that drawing is always controlled by designs, it seems to me that -none- of the application-layer stuff in the spec even touches designs. 23:45:16 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:46:18 oh god. I once had an informed opinion on that 23:46:23 hold on 23:46:53 Ooh. 23:47:27 colors are designs, for example 23:47:31 it's all a bit convoluted 23:48:08 Yeah, and the geometry bit seems to be actively insane. 23:48:37 The only composite geometric object, for example, appears to be the region-set, which has an interface in terms of non-overlapping axis-aligned rectangles. 23:49:07 But can be transformed with an arbitrary affine transformation. 23:49:30 I think beach had an opinion on geometries; I'm only a bit miffed that rectangles and bounding-rectangles aren't exchangeable (: 23:49:52 And what happens if you do a region-intersection on an arc and a line that intersect at two points, or simply a region-intersection on two points? 23:50:49 concave / convex hilarity, yes. 23:50:53 At one point I was working under the hypothesis that designs could be used for output-recording... 23:51:17 I think OpenCGAL has 2d region operations for exactly that. it's very easy to get those wrong. 23:52:27 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@209.20.72.181] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:52:40 Anyway, regions are necessary, but the limitations supplied by various host windowing kits can be interesting. 23:52:49 -!- wubo [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53:24 I was actually surprised when I found that WinAPI supports elliptical regions, and then surprised again when I realized that the interface for creating them forced them to be axis-aligned. 23:54:05 heh, first the sugar, then the cane 23:55:22 nyef: that sounds like something they ported forth since win3.1 23:55:40 Good morning everyone! 23:55:42 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:53 antifuchs: At least it's not beet sugar. 23:55:55 beach: Hello. 23:56:00 hi beach 23:56:20 beach: morning 23:56:47 beach: My current notes are at http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/notes-on-clim-silica.org if you want to read them. 23:56:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-12-235.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:57:40 nyef: I definitely do. Reading now. 23:58:26 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-141-209-189.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]