00:01:08 wetnosed [~kai@f052097228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:02:12 -!- beelike [maln@78-1-173-87.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:34 beelike [maln@78-1-173-87.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:02:45 -!- wetnosed_ [~kai@e179005025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:02:45 am0c [~am0c@203.226.215.20] has joined #lisp 00:08:17 rpg [~rpg@66.161.23.209.lan.static.cptelecom.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:18 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:09:29 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 00:09:29 BountyX [~erhan@dhcp64-134-174-243.safa.lax.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:39 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-141-67.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:11:10 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:12:05 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8BED.versanet.de] has left #lisp 00:13:47 benny [~benny@i577A11D2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:14:22 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 00:17:17 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:09 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-24-193-121-20.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:23:26 -!- xan_ [~xan@75.16.26.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:26:03 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:26:42 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 00:27:01 hey someone here played with picolisp? looks very good, what is the downside of it? 00:27:16 -!- wetnosed [~kai@f052097228.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:56 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:29 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:53 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:31:17 msponge [~msponge@149.169.201.183] has joined #lisp 00:31:55 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 00:32:03 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:32:33 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.114.105] has joined #lisp 00:33:43 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.238] has joined #lisp 00:35:17 am0c_ [~am0c@211.234.217.23] has joined #lisp 00:35:34 -!- am0c [~am0c@203.226.215.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:55 is guy steele's common lisp book worth getting? 00:37:54 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@88.244.8.220] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:38:35 zenlunatic: The second edition has nice, readable prose, but it doesn't describe the language as it is now. 00:38:44 zenlunatic: I found it nice to read after I already knew Common Lisp. 00:42:02 zenlunatic: if you're getting a book to learn CL, practical common lisp and paradigms of ai programming are books for learning that i liked a lot. 00:43:00 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:01 msponge_ 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[~rpg@66.161.23.209.lan.static.cptelecom.net] has quit [Quit: rpg] 01:35:54 -!- ryandm [~ryan@seas291.apng.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:35:55 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:36:04 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:36:28 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@178.181.0.199.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:36:34 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has joined #lisp 01:36:45 -!- Bike [~arm@69.166.35.237] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:37:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.221.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:37:26 ryandm [~ryan@seas291.apng.seas.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 01:37:26 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:54 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:57 minion: memo for Guthur: AIM-8, the McCarthy's "original LISP paper" defines m-expressions. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 01:47:57 Remembered. I'll tell Guthur when he/she/it next speaks. 01:48:14 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:49:54 ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.12] has joined #lisp 01:50:47 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-94-111.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:43 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has joined #lisp 01:58:38 lao [~lao@218.107.55.253] has joined #lisp 01:59:00 -!- lao [~lao@218.107.55.253] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:01:40 blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:01 ec|iPad [~elliottca@95.sub-75-216-34.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:29 Question that came up in another room, and Im curious of the opinion in here: 02:03:44 What makes a lisp a lisp? 02:03:55 Just having s-exp syntax, pairs, cons, car, and cdr? 02:04:36 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 02:05:06 interactive development, code that can write code 02:05:09 and lambda. 02:05:10 lots more stuff, I'm sure (: 02:05:23 Actually, just lambda. 02:05:23 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:05:23 -!- msponge [~msponge@149.169.123.157] has quit [Quit: msponge] 02:05:30 Since you can write cons car and cdr with lambda. 02:05:53 sweet, let's reduce it all down to lambda calculus and go home! 02:06:12 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 02:06:13 I was about to say 02:06:32 What makes lambda calc or combinatory logic not lisps, then? 02:06:38 antifuchs: I think it's the most honest answer to anybody asking this kind of question. 02:06:40 There must be some more definition than that. 02:07:08 ec|iPad: what program do you use on iPad for irc? 02:07:35 /ctcp ec|iPad VERSION? 02:07:54 Colloquy, anyway. Its Terribad, but it works. *shrug* 02:08:18 This ctcp command doesn't seem to work. Thanks. 02:08:44 ec|iPad: Once you have lambda, you implement cons car cdr in one line, and macros in some more, and then you have a lisp. 02:08:46 heh. the "if you have to ask, you'll never know" restriction for asking about concepts applies (: 02:08:47 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:08:57 That's true too. 02:09:19 it's a lisp when it feels right (: 02:09:22 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has joined #lisp 02:09:26 Well, semantically speaking, yes. 02:09:31 Exactly 02:09:53 That's what m going for: we all know a lisp when we see it; I'm just trying to come up with some sort of logical rules to identify one, out of curiosity / boredom 02:10:06 hm, ISTR Krystof gave a pretty nice presentation about what sets lisp apart from other languages at ECLM (I think it was 2004 or 2005) 02:10:07 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:10:20 ec|iPad: read http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/aim-8.html 02:10:38 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has joined #lisp 02:10:55 for me it's this: it has code as data, it lets you redefine stuff, and it is informed by lisp tradition (: 02:12:29 antifuchs: Yeah, but Krystof thinks R is a Lisp, so he can hardly be trusted ;) 02:13:00 see, it could be considered one, but our built-in lispness detectors say no. Why? 02:14:11 ec|iPad: Well, by antifuchs' definition, it doesn't have code as data  I don't think. But my R is rudimentary. 02:14:46 ec|iPad: But Krystof doesn't really think that (I don't think), he just likes R and wrote a SLIME backend for it. 02:14:56 So we've got the shallow definition, pairs/lists operations and s-exps, and now we've got code-as-data 02:15:36 -!- wtetzner [~wtetzner@c-24-218-19-210.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:37 *sellout* wrote something he thinks is a lisp that doesn't have conses  02:15:46 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.104.86] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:16:18 Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:41 ec|iPad: well, the point of pairs and lists, is to be able to represent code as data. See AIM-8. 02:17:39 Workin' on it 02:17:55 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:17:55 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 02:17:55 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:17:55 About to leave a restaurant, will read when I get home. 02:18:00 ec|iPad: of course, You could use other data structures, but vanilla sequences are the best, since they allow easy macro writing (vanilla sequences can be processed by macros without having to know the operators used in the expressions given in argument to the macro). 02:20:05 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:20:19 pjb: I like you. 02:20:50 Ill probably be back to continue this, probably, when I get home (-: 02:20:50 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-68-45.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:41 -!- vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has left #lisp 02:22:51 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6E57.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:58 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:23:08 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has joined #lisp 02:23:33 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-159-201.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:24:29 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@c-24-91-16-174.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 02:24:42 ec|iPad: Have a good journey home! 02:25:19 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-147-245.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:29 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:41 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-68-45.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:29:19 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-166-168.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:44 -!- ryandm [~ryan@seas291.apng.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:31:44 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-147-245.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:32:39 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:12 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:18 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:33:45 abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.19.89] has joined #lisp 02:34:03 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:37:59 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 02:38:45 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.19.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:40:39 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:18 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:44:14 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45:49 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:16 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:50:22 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: (* (! t) nil)] 02:54:32 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:55:30 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 02:55:33 -!- ec|iPad [~elliottca@95.sub-75-216-34.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: ec|iPad] 02:56:21 pjb: if youve got the time, feel free to lurk ##Paws. Im developing a language in there. You might like it. 02:56:41 If it's not a CL extensions, probably not :-/ 02:57:01 italic [~italic@67.242.144.94] has joined #lisp 02:57:16 I'm too old to lose time with random languages. When I was young, I also searched for the perfect language. Now I've found it, it's Common Lisp. I can start writing programs instead. 02:59:14 if i'm using a package in this package, why do i need to do (with-slots (other::x) obj (print other::x)) ? 02:59:36 <|3b|> you didn't export X from OTHER? 02:59:56 <|3b|> (or 'a package' isn't OTHER) 03:00:18 pjb: understood, and agreed. 03:00:28 pjb: hence why I asked. Depends on your level of boredom. 03:00:56 |3b|: yeah, i didn't export the object accessor 03:01:12 <|3b|> italic: you export names (symbols) not accessors 03:02:22 italic: notice that if those slot name symbols are not exported, it means that the designer of the class and package deemed them private, so you should not use with-slots. 03:02:28 italic: instead, try with-accessor. 03:02:37 rahul [~rjain@66.234.32.156] has joined #lisp 03:04:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:05:35 with-accessors, but i still need to export it 03:07:17 ie. (with-accessors ((x other::x)) obj (print x)) 03:08:03 <|3b|> right, but the idea is you might have different names for the slot and the accessor, and only export one of them 03:09:05 so is it better style to use that form above, or export all the accessor names? 03:09:30 <|3b|> 'better' is to think about what needs exported, and export exactly that set 03:09:54 <|3b|> if users of that code are supposed to be calling a function, the name of that function should be exported 03:10:27 <|3b|> if they are not supposed to be accessing a slot directly, the name of that slot should not be exported (and possibly the name of the slot may need changed if it matches the name of something that is exported) 03:10:51 <|3b|> using :: is in general bad style 03:11:31 so in that respect, exporteing accessors is the same as exporting methods on the object? 03:11:37 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442149.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 263 seconds] 03:11:58 <|3b|> again, you export /names/ not 'accessors' or 'methods' or 'slots' or whatever 03:12:31 <|3b|> and for CLOS instances, the accessors are methods 03:12:45 -!- spiaggia [~user@113.161.72.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:13:23 rtoym: What's your feeling about matlisp? Is it still what all the hoopy froods are using, or is the attention of the potential numerical linear algebra user better directed elsewhere? 03:13:52 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:14:03 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:08 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:14:55 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:19:46 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 03:19:46 03:19:46 -!- names: ccl-logbot hugod_ tritchey rahul italic Salamander_ am0c simplechat Bike gaidal drl blackwol` rme fisxoj JuanDaugherty realitygrill pnq hsrt seangrove xxxyyy theBlackDragon cesarbp cafesofie benny longfin borkamaniac Posterdati algorist McMAGIC--Copy BrianRice Jasko3 Euthydemus Fullma Demosthenes tessier c|mell lbc_ guther cheezus rtoym [df] timjstewart Odin- oudeis Hunden reb ianmcorvidae xinming rien katesmith AntiSpamMeta sykopomp stepnem deepfire 03:19:46 -!- names: larva yesimnathan insomniaSalt tty234_ OliverUv statonjr Zephyrus Amadiro derekv Landr morphism ezakimak Spion__ tsuru mattrepl mathrick loke ramus The_Fellow rootzlevel myu2 milkpost TheRealLongshot SpitfireWP Krystof dmiles chr` kiuma kpreid lnostdal drdo setmeaway alfa_y_omega_ prip emporas Hun ``Erik _pw_ oconnore krappie__ Yamazaki-kun lolwut_ joshe Triplefault zenlunatic beach ASau kleppari specbot minion lisppaste s0ber sellout egn lundis jcazevedo 03:19:46 -!- names: Evious arbscht kjellkt cmm joe999 Jasko2 abeaumont sonnym cataska hramrach_ lolsuper_ em Modius Kraymes CrazyEddy madnificent cmbntr ecraven saterus a7p lusory tomaw mon_key peterhil nu11ptr setheus yan_ Adrinael Bucciarati cods aperturefever lemoinem housel Khisanth Buganini EarlGray antifuchs c3l spurvewt quasisane xristos thijso amb007 Xantoz C-Keen orivej froydnj naryl krl zbigniew eli jamief dostoyevsky mornfall fmu rotty strlen Tordek Younder levi 03:19:46 -!- names: Patzy djinni` df_aldur mpereira bzzbzz_ xian mtd__ adeht sid3k ivan4th njan scode joast kencausey shachaf erk Intensity jackhill phadthai Jabberwockey nuba PuffTheMagic spacebat aoh lichtblau fe[nl]ix negaduck pjb incandenza nixfreak grncdr jrockway k9quaint_ Tristam clop2 j_king erg eno antoszka Dodek pkhuong ineiros_ koollman jkantz ineiros Bootvis kanru CallToPower seejay srcerer DrForr cmatei johanbev albino froggey sirmacik rins` clog yahooooo _3b 03:19:46 -!- names: Zhivago Taggnostr2 vlevel Borbus TDT Zol galdor jeekl Kovensky trigen Obfuscate |3b| timchen1` micro tic oGMo cibs nullman herbieB rabite euphidime elliottcable tvaalen mephistophocles colazero schme Legooolas fds pp206 p_l|backup freiksenet rsynnott absence jsnell huehnts_ tychoish lonstein xale borism churib hohum zakwilson derrotebaron pok z0d dcrawford ilmari akkartik mgr bfein kloeri qebab ve mal__ ejohnson simontwo_ zfx felipe Aisling andreer johs 03:19:46 -!- names: easyE frodef Fade cYmen hyko Pepe_ cpt_nemo luis ozzloy acieroid PissedNumlock foom process 03:20:52 muhdick [~qle@www.kiofc.com] has joined #lisp 03:22:58 *zenlunatic* wonders if he could start a sicp book club 03:23:11 mydik [~qle@www.kiofc.com] has joined #lisp 03:24:11 A book club about one book? 03:24:17 or a group 03:24:28 -!- muhdick [~qle@www.kiofc.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:24:28 -!- mydik [~qle@www.kiofc.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:24:33 zenlunatic: this has been tried. Unfortunately, it's hard to gather enough momentum to finish it. Real soon, people are distracted by other things. 03:24:35 muhdick [~qle@www.kiofc.com] has joined #lisp 03:25:17 zenlunatic: so the best you can do, is to use the web to allow for asynchronous communication with fellow readers. eg. there are various blogs about sicp. 03:25:34 i should get a usenet acct 03:26:06 madrik [~madrik@122.168.138.145] has joined #lisp 03:26:12 I use individual.net for my usenet needs. 03:27:21 zenlunatic: you're better off following the berkeley webcourse that follows the book 03:29:25 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:04 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:38 -!- pjb is now known as aleph0 03:31:41 -!- aleph0 is now known as pjb 03:34:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.68] has quit [Quit: Offline] 03:34:56 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:06 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:38:12 cesarbp_ [~chatzilla@189.247.114.105] has joined #lisp 03:38:16 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 03:38:49 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.114.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:38:54 -!- cesarbp_ is now known as cesarbp 03:40:59 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:44:08 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 03:44:44 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:46:19 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:47:53 -!- rahul [~rjain@66.234.32.156] has quit [Quit: (* (! t) nil)] 03:49:38 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:49:51 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:50:38 asher9 [~asher@c-24-91-59-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:31 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has joined #lisp 03:55:25 rahul [~rjain@66.234.32.156] has joined #lisp 03:55:40 I find myself wishing that I could "splat" more than just the last term in APPLY, such as (apply* fn '(a b) '(c)) --> (apply fn a b c). I can handle it by nesting APPLY calls, but wondering if there is a canonical method. 03:56:19 append? 03:56:49 Yes, that's what I mean by nesting apply calls. It's apply + append. 03:57:07 It seems ugly, just wondering if there is an idiom or something. 03:58:29 I should have said "apply of nested" rather than nesting apply. 03:59:20 Append is not nested, though the expressed are. So just "apply of append" is better. 03:59:25 *expressions 04:00:41 The funny thing is that macros are easier in this regard. I'm looking for a run-time version of ,@. 04:01:07 asher9: you usually don't design functions to be like that 04:01:53 um, and you mean (apply fn '(a b c)), I think 04:02:02 Yes it may be unusual, but this is the case. I want to handle (fn1 x A B C) and (fn2 A B C) in a common implementation. 04:03:17 right -- (apply fn a b '(c)) is what I meant (same thing) 04:03:19 (defun apply* (fn &rest args) (apply fn (apply #'append args))) 04:03:31 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:39 fuck! The runtime version of ,@ is called APPEND! 04:03:58 lemoinem [~swoog@217-76-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:07 Increadible! 04:04:57 -!- asher9 [~asher@c-24-91-59-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:43 is there a better way to coerce a single-float to fixnum? besides (round 1.5) 04:07:11 -!- pnq [~nick@AC812D02.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:07:15 there's truncate, ceiling and floor too. 04:08:16 I'd propose integer-decode-float too, but you wouldn't like it. 04:08:49 superjudge [~mjl@195.22.80.141] has joined #lisp 04:08:52 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl14-85-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:08:54 (integer-DECODE-FLOAT 1.5) --> 12582912 04:09:01 which is more correct than the other results... 04:09:07 (format nil "~2r" (integer-decode-float 1.5)) --> "110000000000000000000000" 04:09:14 BountyX [~erhan@adsl-75-10-133-29.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:34 1.5 = 11(2)*2^-1 04:09:50 looking more for efficiency 04:09:53 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:10:04 Then you cannot beat integer-decode-float. 04:10:19 It basically just fetch the bits from the float. 04:10:43 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 04:12:15 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 04:12:18 but since it's the 3rd value i want from it, would not the extra multiple-value-binds add more than needed? 04:12:22 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 04:12:23 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:12:57 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:13:13 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-71-191-34-172.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:13:26 What efficiency do you want? That of the processor, or yours? 04:13:46 (round 1.4) sounds the most efficient way to use my time. 04:13:53 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:14:19 agreed. i was just seeing if i was overlooking anything 04:15:42 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-207-62.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:19 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:16:49 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:18:08 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander\ 04:18:11 -!- Salamander\ is now known as Salamander 04:18:24 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-166-168.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:19:27 italic: if you find a function that is documented to do exactly what you want, use it... 04:19:47 assume it's implemented in the most efficient way possible for the task it accomplishes 04:21:33 rahul: there's just so many functions to choose from! 04:21:40 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ypliuyhserrnpbzv] has joined #lisp 04:22:02 italic: you might prefer a language with less libraries? 04:22:30 try brainfuck, then 04:22:58 would you rather a language without floating point support? I don't get it 04:23:00 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:23:21 do you know how to look up operators by category? 04:23:28 premature optimization is the root of all evil, as they say.. 04:23:45 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:12 rahul: i know the hyperspec index and permuted-index, and google 04:24:13 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@p5B103A2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:24:44 italic: Do you know the chapters? 04:25:56 i guess i know they exist, though i haven't been using them. i'll check the pcl chapters to see if it's in there 04:26:54 but yes, i see how the 'numeric operations' chapter would have been helpful in this case 04:27:49 if you want operations that manipulate a certain type, go to that chapter's dictionary 04:28:00 Hunden [~Hunden@p5B1034A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ahanckcrrqnxeeti] has joined #lisp 04:36:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:37:21 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:41 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:43:34 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 04:49:02 marioxcc [~user@200.92.183.218] has joined #lisp 04:49:10 Hello 04:49:19 How may I undo a 'declaim' optimization? 04:49:21 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:49:37 <|3b|> restart the lisp? 04:49:55 <|3b|> DECLAIMing something else might be enough for some declarations though 04:51:05 I mean: I want to set the optimization settings of a function to the default (Witout restarting the SBCL, of course) 04:51:58 <|3b|> yeah, if you can figure out the defaults, you can probably just DECLAIM those 04:52:22 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:38 but how to do so automatically (Without entering the defaults explicitly)? 04:53:08 gglitch [~user@216-80-93-163.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:39 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-184.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 04:58:23 *|3b|* doesn't see any obvious way to ask for the defaults from code 04:58:44 ok, thanks anyway :-) 04:58:48 I'm closing this 04:58:54 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.183.218] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:01:49 evening 05:01:55 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 05:04:58 longfin [~longfin@61.106.160.9] has joined #lisp 05:06:30 -!- blackwol` [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:07:26 Hello slyrus. I was just looking at opticl today. I'm new to lisp but have been looking at image processing environments for a museum I work in. 05:07:39 cool! 05:07:49 welcome to the world of lisp :) 05:07:59 what museum is that? 05:08:06 The Art Institute of Chicago 05:08:13 -!- rahul [~rjain@66.234.32.156] has quit [Quit: (* (! t) nil)] 05:08:31 *slyrus* was quite impressed with the technology at an aquarium he visited recently 05:08:35 Thanks. I can't imagine why anyone objects to the syntax of it, Lisp. Certainly not if they've ever had to look at xml, anyway. 05:08:38 neat! 05:09:15 yeah, in some ways it's taken things like java, php and xml to get people to appreciate lisp :) 05:09:16 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:09:18 For sure. I'll be sure to let you know whatever I work out wit opticl 05:09:48 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has joined #lisp 05:09:54 -!- longfin [~longfin@61.106.160.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:03 I started with Python, and thought of it as relatively straightforward; but Lisp is like reading ordinary prose compared to that. 05:10:09 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 05:10:09 ok, let me know if I can help! 05:10:10 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:10:16 Thanks slyrus. 05:10:31 Are you here much? 05:10:56 if it turns out to be a lot of work, dinner at Alinea would, I'm sure, be suitable compensation :) 05:10:59 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has joined #lisp 05:11:07 Haha - no doubt 05:11:09 yeah, fairly often, when I'm not busy with real work 05:11:19 Where are you based? 05:11:23 here being #lisp, not Chicago, of course 05:11:27 right 05:11:29 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:11:30 northern california 05:11:43 So you're not exactly starving either. 05:11:48 :) 05:11:48 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has joined #lisp 05:12:32 definitely not, after tonight's sushi feast anyway :) 05:12:56 -!- madrik [~madrik@122.168.138.145] has left #lisp 05:13:12 I'm pleased to have run into you, but am on my way out. Thanks for the high-power code, and see you around! 05:13:41 ok, your welcome. looking forward to discussing more after you've had a chance to dive into it some! 05:14:10 -!- gglitch [~user@216-80-93-163.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 05:15:51 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.1.156] has joined #lisp 05:16:11 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-125-192.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:16:43 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-62.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:56 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.130.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:20:11 xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:33 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-207-62.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:26:56 symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:16 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-93-225.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:57 gravicappa 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quit [Quit: leaving] 06:14:12 adam68 [~adam@60-234-168-220.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:17:57 actually I do think R is a lisp, in approximately the same sense that e.g. Scheme is 06:19:22 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:19:29 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:19:29 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:21:25 Krystof: it's too bad that so much useful code that's out there is written in _that_ lisp instead of in CL, IYAM 06:22:09 Just implement the java standard libraries in lisp and you should be fine. 06:24:43 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:25:38 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:26:41 gko [~gko@111.81.43.133] has joined #lisp 06:26:57 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.171] has joined #lisp 06:28:56 onats [7432aa12@gateway/web/freenode/ip.116.50.170.18] has joined #lisp 06:34:37 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:34:49 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 06:36:57 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:37:01 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:37:15 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-159-140.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:37:51 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 06:39:10 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:39:18 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.108.206] has joined #lisp 06:41:17 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.114.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:43:09 slyrus: right 06:48:13 -!- phua_ [~phua@adsl-99-63-93-4.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 06:48:46 phua_ [~phua@adsl-99-63-93-4.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:52 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-188-58.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:37 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:59:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-136.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:00:09 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:01:02 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:51 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:06:11 mrSpec [~Spec@81.219.150.67] has joined #lisp 07:06:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@81.219.150.67] has quit [Changing host] 07:06:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:06:48 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:09:03 Areil [~user@113.172.38.206] has joined #lisp 07:09:17 insomnia1alt [~milan@92.204.24.27] has joined #lisp 07:09:54 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-136.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:11:03 Any iterate professionals here already? 07:12:17 Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.206] has joined #lisp 07:12:42 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-14-67.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:00 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander 07:13:01 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:23 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-59-249.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:14:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-62.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:15:12 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-188-58.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:16:57 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-62.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:22 -!- xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:17:46 -!- phua_ [~phua@adsl-99-63-93-4.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:21:03 -!- lolwut_ is now known as base_3 07:21:07 adam68b 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dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 07:40:30 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:40:31 flip214: just ask the question :) 07:40:52 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 07:41:03 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 07:41:03 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 07:41:18 aerique: okay ... iterate does code-walking. Now I had (for old-val = (atomic-decf ...)) in an iter; 07:41:52 but the atomic-decf translates to (sb-ext:truly-the sb-ext:word (...)), which the code-walker of iterate doesn't understand. 07:42:28 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-62.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:42:41 So, as code-walking is generally unreliable, is it the preferred solution to add sb-ext:truly-the to the list in iterate? Just like "the" is already handled? 07:42:48 (with a #+sbcl, of course) 07:42:53 notacoder [~notacoder@178.180.44.147.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:43:06 sound better to me than changing atomic-decf etc. 07:45:06 it would be my preferred solution but that doesn't mean much 07:45:12 -!- notacoder [~notacoder@178.180.44.147.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:45:35 am0c_ [~am0c@222.235.92.118] has joined #lisp 07:45:58 -!- base_3 [~krakatoa@cpc24-slam6-2-0-cust231.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:46:48 <|3b|> arguably a bug in sbcl, but adding it to the code-walker is probably simplest solution 07:48:18 <|3b|> alternately, could try wrapping the call to atomic-decf in a flet outside the ITER form, depending on what it needs to see 07:48:45 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:48:47 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:48:48 flip214: it's a bug in sbcl 07:49:19 tcr: so I shouldn't post a patch to iterate-devel? 07:49:38 Why do you classify that as a bug in sbcl? 07:49:41 <|3b|> patch to iterate + bug report to sbcl would probably be best 07:49:58 <|3b|> clhs 3.1.2.1.2.2 07:49:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababb.htm 07:50:13 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:50:19 <|3b|> ^ says non-standard special operators should be macroexpandable 07:50:42 *cmm* is sometimes thinking about accumulating a serious amount of Copious Spare Time and implementing a non-walking front-end to iterate. which noone would want to use, of course 07:51:14 <|3b|> does reiterate still code-walk, or was it just using a nicer code walker? 07:51:38 reiterate uses dwim.hu's better code walker, afaik 07:52:01 -!- am0c_ is now known as am0c 07:52:02 unless it doesn't any more, of course, you never know with those guys :) 07:52:18 iterate-devel is sent ... sbcl bug in launchpad, IIRC 07:52:31 *|3b|* can't tell, too lazy to enable cookies so i can see their page :p 07:52:52 *cmm* mumbles "yeah, figures" :) 07:53:00 greentea [~greentea@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:58 *cmm* has already figured out the principal naming points of his vapourware, though: the main macro would be called LATHER, and the escape-to-lisp keyword would be :RINSE 07:55:34 cmm: and what happens to REPEAT and PROFIT! ?? 07:55:40 |3b|: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/771673 07:56:34 now Edi has to implement the thing so that it could be called Laether 07:56:54 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-9-13.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:57:19 flip214: one is implied and the other is desired 08:03:18 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:07:24 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 08:07:56 -!- greentea [~greentea@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:08:07 |3b|: 3.1.2.1.2.2 talks only about macros, which aren't specified as special, as special operators, isn't it? 08:08:21 s/isn't/doesn't/ 08:09:06 snearch [~snearch@f053004004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:36 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-119-56.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:57 Vejeta [~user@unaffiliated/vejeta] has joined #lisp 08:11:02 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:12:00 duncan_bayne [~user@120.152.246.136] has joined #lisp 08:13:04 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 08:13:05 -!- duncan_bayne [~user@120.152.246.136] has left #lisp 08:15:21 No. 08:15:28 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 08:15:32 good morning 08:15:47 The reason that special operators are special is that those are the primitive operations that a code walker needs to be able to break a CL program down into. 08:15:48 <|3b|> stassats: not sure, some of the 'special operator' stuff seems poorly specified anyway though 08:15:50 am0c_ [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has joined #lisp 08:16:09 They can be implemented however an implementation desires. 08:16:12 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-184.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 08:16:20 e.g., as macros. 08:16:26 <|3b|> (for example glossary defines them as the specific set listed in some figure, but then 3.1.2.1.2.2 allows making any macro a special operator) 08:16:30 Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has joined #lisp 08:16:56 |3b|: i mean that atomic-incf can't be under jurisdiction of CLHS 08:17:04 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 08:17:11 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:13 3b: What's the problem with that? 08:17:13 iterate-devel: "You are not allowed to post to this mailing list, and your message has been automatically rejected." ;-( 08:17:59 Ah, I think I understand. 08:18:08 -!- am0c [~am0c@222.235.92.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:18:13 <|3b|> Zhivago: problem being that most macros aren't on that list 08:18:24 They shouldn't be. 08:18:28 <|3b|> right 08:18:43 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-qbrnsqcpvpitiywc] has joined #lisp 08:18:50 <|3b|> so either they are more than exactly that list, or implementations can't define more 08:18:54 There are two issues here -- one is lexical analysis -- where the set of special operator names is important. 08:18:55 -!- am0c_ is now known as am0c 08:19:09 The other is implementation as a function, macro, or other. 08:19:18 <|3b|> (or maybe special-operator-p should only return T for the specified set, but that seems odd too) 08:19:34 So any macro can have a corresponding other implementation, providing that macroexpansion is still possible. 08:19:59 3b: No. special-operator-p must only return t for the specified set. 08:20:01 <|3b|> right, i'm mainly arguing the glossary entry is poorly written 08:20:07 hello lispers 08:20:59 *relcomp* lisps: "Hello kiuma". 08:21:45 *|3b|* wouldn't rely on that behavior of special-operator-p (after doing so when i shouldn't and having it fail) 08:22:27 What did you expect it to do that it did? 08:22:31 er, didn't? 08:22:36 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-229-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:22:48 <|3b|> return T for only the exact set of symbols on the list 08:23:41 Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has joined #lisp 08:24:47 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:25:37 <|3b|> at the time, ACL returned true for at least DOTIMES, which i wasn't expecting 08:26:11 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-119-56.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:26:15 <|3b|> (but since i was really processing my own language not CL, i should have really been using my own list of special operators anyway, even if it was supposed to be the same as the CL list) 08:29:39 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-197-146.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:48 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:30:40 *|3b|* wonders if that or any of the other stuff my code didn't like about acl ever ended up getting fixed 08:32:48 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 08:35:28 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:48 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:38:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:39:07 In my current OpenGL renderer I have shader programs reference by a string identity, and retrieved from a hashmap, so that I can change the programs easily on the fly. Would having a shader program package and interning symbols there be a reasonable second approach, so that it would symbols instead of strings? 08:39:08 Guthur, memo from pjb: AIM-8, the McCarthy's "original LISP paper" defines m-expressions. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 08:39:08 Guthur, memo from pjb: AIM-8, the McCarthy's "original LISP paper" defines m-expressions. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 08:39:38 MoALTz [~no@92.8.152.53] has joined #lisp 08:40:13 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:40:38 <|3b|> are the strings coming from some external source? 08:41:12 |3b|: yes, they will likely be 08:41:13 <|3b|> and would you be interning them every time you wanted to look up a shader, or just once with lots of lookups? 08:41:27 |3b|: once 08:42:34 <|3b|> doesn't sound too unreasonable then 08:42:38 Umm though to be honest I don't think I thought of that part enough 08:43:06 I sort of thought they would all get loaded at startup once 08:43:13 <|3b|> or you could implement your own interning and return some more specific object 08:43:18 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.253.23] has joined #lisp 08:43:48 Hi all! 08:44:44 *|3b|* has as yet failed to come up with a good strategy for handling mapping of names to GL bits and pieces, with nice runtime redefinition + defining while gl isn't running + fast access + etc 08:45:16 |3b|: funny I ran into the 'GL not running issue last night' 08:45:32 'GL not running' 08:45:52 *|3b|* vaguely suspects there is some magic MOPpy trick that would make it all happy and rainbows, but i don't know MOP well enough to find it (or much at all for that matter) 08:46:13 <|3b|> yeah, you need to be able to define stuff without GL running 08:46:24 <|3b|> then notice GL is there and actually create the GL resources 08:46:34 <|3b|> and notice GL went away and not try to reuse them later 08:46:57 <|3b|> and recreate the GL resources when stuff is redefined IFF gl is running 08:47:25 <|3b|> and if possible, handle multiple instances of GL running at once 08:47:58 <|3b|> and all that with fast lookups, since there will be a lot of them on relatively performance sensitive code 08:48:26 yep, but I really want to resist the temptation of getting bogged down in trying to engineer the best solution 08:48:31 *|3b|* probably missed a bunch of things too, like loading things from files, and being able to efficiently map names between them etc 08:48:43 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:48:43 <|3b|> yeah, that too 08:49:15 *|3b|* suspects it will be much easier to handle in webgl, just tack a property on the shader object, done :/ 08:49:22 it's happen to many times, so I'm rreally going to try and only code what I need when I need it 08:49:46 <|3b|> yeah, just that that stuff tends to be needed pretty quick :p 08:49:51 so my intention is to stick with hashmaps for now, but I wanted to sound of the package idea as well 08:50:16 -!- Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:51:27 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-190-213.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:13 stis [~stis@host-95-201-112-88.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:53:40 my theory is that with the right coding style I can easily iterate the design 08:54:09 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-197-146.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:55:17 bsod1 [~sinan@88.244.139.28] has joined #lisp 08:56:43 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-008-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:26 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:00:39 good morning 09:01:11 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:01:14 bsod1_ [~sinan@78.175.210.172] has joined #lisp 09:01:18 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@88.244.139.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:01:34 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 09:01:56 hi, I have a C library that needs a FILE* as input and gives output to FILE*, how can I use that with cffi? 09:02:25 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:30 ignotus: Just use the regular C functions 09:02:31 <|3b|> :pointer ? 09:02:53 drdo: ah yes, but how can I get the string from the FILE? 09:03:03 <|3b|> FILE is opaque, isn't it? 09:03:08 yes 09:03:35 sorry, I don't know what FILE is, how can I access the contents from cffi? 09:03:45 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:47 You don't access the contents 09:03:53 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-190-213.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:03:55 You're not supposed to do that 09:03:58 <|3b|> FILE* is a pointer to FILE, FILE is some unspecified C junk 09:04:10 <|3b|> you don't access it's contents from C either 09:04:26 so FILE must be written to a real file on the filesystem? 09:04:29 <|3b|> you pass it to a function that does whatever you want done to it, or gets whatever property of it you want 09:04:29 ignotus: Maybe it would be easier if you told us what you are trying to do 09:04:52 <|3b|> FILE is (probably) some structure in memory 09:04:54 drdo: I'm trying to use the discount with cffi 09:04:58 http://www.pell.portland.or.us/~orc/Code/discount/ 09:05:37 int markdown(MMIOT *doc, FILE *out, int flags) 09:05:49 the main func puts the output into that FILE stuff, that is a major bummer then 09:05:50 <|3b|> so you open a file, and pass the result to thatr 09:06:03 You just call fopen 09:06:06 |3b|: I will die before I do that:) It needs to be done in memory for me:) 09:06:07 and pass it the FILE* 09:06:12 <|3b|> the FILE* you pass it is a handle to an open file 09:06:29 -!- c|mell [~cmell@cable-77-77-253-169.dynamic.telemach.ba] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:06:37 |3b| drdo ok thanks, I can do it via FILE handles, I was hoping that I could avoid doing that somehow 09:06:41 <|3b|> you could try 3bmd if you are feeling adventurous and don't need huge files processed 09:06:46 ignotus: That's not related to CFFI at all 09:06:54 drdo: I see it now, thanks 09:06:55 That's about that discount library 09:07:09 yeah 09:07:14 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-194-95.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:15 Does C support in-memory streams with FILE? 09:07:43 -!- stis [~stis@host-95-201-112-88.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:07:50 hmm it must do I think 09:07:51 stis [~stis@host-90-235-246-230.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:29 ignotus: use fmemopen 09:08:42 <|3b|> looks like you can do in-memory stuff with mkd_compile and mkd_generatehtml mkd_document 09:08:47 flip214: hehe nice, thanks!:) 09:08:49 or open_memstream 09:08:57 |3b|: checking 09:09:15 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has joined #lisp 09:09:31 *|3b|* isn't sure which of the various mkd_* you would need to call in which order to duplicate the markdown function though 09:10:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:10:09 |3b|: ah I see, mkd_document is good for me, thanks 09:10:12 *|3b|* just processes markdown in CL instead 09:10:20 *drdo* Isn't sure what's the purpose of that library 09:10:39 drdo: it is a very fast markdown (text->html) utility 09:11:12 Eh, i'd just use org-mode 09:12:18 drdo: on server side markdown can be a better choice:) I use org-mode my desktop 09:12:21 on my* 09:12:42 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:13:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:13:56 <|3b|> out of curiosity, how does it compare to peg-markdown? it seemed reasonably fast when i compared, and looks like it has a simpler interface 09:14:17 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:15:17 HET2 [~diman@80.3.31.126] has joined #lisp 09:15:20 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-194-95.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:15:20 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:15:55 -!- Younder [~john@224.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:16:00 |3b|: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/889434/markdown-implementations-for-c-c 09:16:21 you can find a good(looking) summary here ^ 09:16:59 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:14 hehe the guy writes that it had only FILE api, when I was checking it out previusly that must have been the case 09:17:49 providing a C API listed as a disadvantahe 09:17:56 disadvantage* 09:18:08 I'd have thought that was a good thing 09:18:41 <|3b|> yeah, extra libs is kinda ugly, but the API is trivial... pass it a string, get a string back :p 09:19:01 Why are extra libs kinda ugly? 09:19:11 guther: the guy uses it as a command-line program I think 09:19:24 <|3b|> stuff like GLib when you wouldn't otherwise be using it 09:19:27 Guthur* ^ 09:19:51 |3b|: The idea that every C program should reimplement everything is what's ugly 09:20:09 <|3b|> drdo: true 09:20:24 glib is pretty nice 09:20:48 <|3b|> just same issue as in CL where everyone /did/ reimplement everything already, so you end up using a few sets whether you want to or not 09:21:24 *|3b|* will retract the complaint though, not like i actually care that much :) 09:21:50 Well, it's fun to reinvent the wheel 09:21:58 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:22:54 *|3b|* goes back to reinventing JS stuff instead 09:23:20 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.43.133] has quit [] 09:23:24 <|3b|> for what it's worth though, 3bmd is quite a bit slower than peg-markdown :( 09:23:45 you're not a very good sales man |3b| 09:24:14 <|3b|> Guthur: well, i'm not completely sure i'd trust it yet myself :p 09:24:41 |3b|: A good salesman doesn't let such details get in the way 09:24:45 <|3b|> a lot of that is using a new parser generator lib that hasn't been optimized yet though, so that should improve as people get time to optimize it 09:25:00 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.108.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:26:06 <|3b|> it is fast enough for my limited need so far, cliki2 people seem to think it is OK, so not too horrible 09:26:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-136.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:26:27 *|3b|* seems to have lost a few words there or something 09:26:35 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.108.206] has joined #lisp 09:27:03 is it possible to get the real length of a string in SBCL? I'm thinking about (length (sb-ext:string-to-octets string)) 09:27:34 <|3b|> that would give you the number of octets in a particular encoding of that string, yes 09:27:54 ignotus: what do you mean by "real length"? 09:27:57 <|3b|> if that isn't what you mean by 'real length' then you might need something else 09:28:08 length as bytes of allocated memory? 09:28:11 nikodemus: yes 09:28:25 thats 4*length(string), IIRC 09:28:37 as SBCL uses 4 bytes for every character 09:28:48 slash_ [~unknown@pD955D2FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:28:56 <|3b|> do you want a length to pass to C? if so, length of encoded octets sounds reasonable 09:29:04 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-153-7.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:30 |3b|: yes, I need to pass it to the markdown lib 09:29:31 <|3b|> if you just want an estimate of memory use for a lisp string, some multiple of (length string) is probably what you want 09:29:35 ignotus: storage for characters only, or also any headers bytes? whatabout trailing #\nul? 09:30:29 nikodemus: I'm passing the string to a C lib, and for some unknown reasons it asks for the length too 09:30:58 ignotus: is the library unicode aware? 09:31:23 nikodemus: I'm sure it is, yes 09:31:31 that is, does it take a vector of utf-8, a wchar*, or just plain old char* that is hopefully latin1? 09:31:50 ie. what is the actual input format it wants? 09:32:00 nikodemus: huh, my guess is that it takes a old char* and handles it like it is utf8:) 09:32:08 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:32:19 I hope it will work that way 09:32:30 then you (string-to-octets string :utf-8) and take the length of that 09:32:35 if I have TIMEZONE="Europe/Rome" and `date` returns "Wed Apr 27 11:30:42 CEST 2011" is it correct that (date:universal-time-to-http-date (get-universal-time)) returns "Wed, 27 Apr 2011 09:30:42 GMT" ? isn't TZ Erope/Rome equals to GMT+1 ? 09:32:42 nikodemus: thanks 09:32:42 oops, missing :external-format there 09:32:44 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.108.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:33:04 why do I have two hours of difference ? 09:33:36 <|3b|> DST maybe? 09:33:37 kiuma: maybe it is a summer time thing? 09:33:48 <|3b|> yeah, CEST seems to be +2 09:34:33 bah, ok I'm a bit confused by TZ settings :) 09:34:44 <|3b|> yeah, they are a hassle :( 09:34:49 It's the DST bullshit 09:38:22 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 09:39:17 anyway net-telent-date works correctl and this is what's important :) 09:39:25 *correctly 09:39:37 drl [~lat@110.139.230.255] has joined #lisp 09:45:29 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:45:32 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:46:06 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:40 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.108.206] has joined #lisp 09:51:02 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: 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[~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:07:21 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:07:53 Manadar [~Manadar3@D978D8FE.cm-3-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 10:07:55 -!- Manadar [~Manadar3@D978D8FE.cm-3-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has left #lisp 10:10:00 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:12:31 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:13:01 waaaaargh [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:31 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 10:14:59 waaaaargh_ [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:34 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:55 -!- waaaaargh_ [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:19:58 -!- waaaaargh [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:20:23 waaaaargh [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:45 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:22:05 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:22:08 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:23:08 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 10:23:46 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 10:24:04 hi aerique :P 10:25:41 morphism: hi :) 10:26:08 :D 10:26:16 don't know what to say 10:26:28 .... 10:26:47 better keep quiet then, or msg me 10:27:26 Can I know your free time in GMT ? 10:27:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:28:54 morphism: i've sent you a private message, lets continue talking there 10:29:18 ok 10:32:05 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:41 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:35:52 -!- onats 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[~Salamande@ppp121-45-156-202.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:49 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:11 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-138-94.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:01:40 kiuma: CEST is UTC+2, CET is UTC+1, etc. 11:03:57 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 11:05:03 stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-115-238.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:38 -!- stis [~stis@host-90-235-246-230.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:10:45 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.124.213] has joined #lisp 11:12:02 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:12:03 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 11:12:03 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 11:13:53 I assume SBCL's threading support on windows is still not there yet, correct? 11:14:07 that's correct 11:14:27 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:19:34 please try the windows thread-support fork and report success or failure 11:19:37 sbcl will probably never "be there" (as stable as it is on linux) on windows? 11:20:45 Krystof: oh, was not aware of the fork, I will indeed try it when looking to test on windows 11:20:52 and relay any issues 11:21:51 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.194] has joined #lisp 11:25:30 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:25:37 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 11:26:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:27:10 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ypliuyhserrnpbzv] has left #lisp 11:27:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 11:30:01 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined 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[~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:11 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:12:24 Good morning, all. 13:14:56 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@87.68.65.54.cable.012.net.il] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:16:11 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:31 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-106-108.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:57 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-156-28.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:21:09 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-128-42.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:28 -!- aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has quit [Quit: wow] 13:22:40 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-106-108.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:23:06 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@webuds163-242.rz.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:24:59 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[~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:31:22 is there any permission mechanism in cl (akin to private methods in C++), or say, via packages--a way to prevent specific code from being directly invoked? 14:31:32 ezakimak: Not in CL. 14:31:55 ezakimak: The protection in CL is to hang a sign that says "This isn't really for you to mess with", not throw up padlocks on things. 14:31:56 fortunately:) 14:31:57 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@webuds163-242.rz.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:32:07 you can write in documentation "don't call this all daemons will hunt you" 14:32:13 s/all/or/ 14:32:33 or not exporting a symbol is a straightforward hint too 14:32:40 okay. so I guess my option is to write my own repl that first scans the code for violations before executing it? 14:32:45 <|3b|> you can make it annoying to call some things, but not prevent it (not that you can in most other languages either) 14:33:05 ezakimak: What are you actually trying to do? 14:33:20 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:56 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@webuds163-242.rz.uni-saarland.de] has joined #lisp 14:34:10 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:34:20 i'm brainstorming ways to implement a base application that is user-modifiable--but requires authentication to modify certain portions 14:34:24 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 14:35:23 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:45 Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 14:35:57 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:16 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:36:51 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 14:37:06 snearch_ [~snearch@f053004004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:37:06 replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:38:25 ehu` [~ehuels@109.34.108.206] has joined #lisp 14:39:35 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:39:35 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.108.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:40:19 -!- Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.161.155] has left #lisp 14:40:34 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:27 ezakimak: Let Over Lambda has a good chapter on safe reading 14:42:27 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 14:43:12 alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 14:43:29 Does ASDF 2 have asdf-system-definition stuff built-in? 14:43:44 sellout: What asdf-system-definition stuff? 14:43:55 Umm, I meant asdf-system-connections :) 14:44:38 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:45:03 Because it looks like a-s-c just defines a defsystem with some :systems-required option that I hadn't seen before. 14:45:47 No, it doesn't. 14:45:57 kehoea [~aidan@2001:7b8:2ff:173::2] has joined #lisp 14:45:58 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:04 boa tarde, #lisp 14:46:24 Oh, I see now. DEFSYSTEM lets you specify the system class, and a-s-c defines a subclass for that. 14:46:26 nm. 14:46:47 abhinav [~abhinav@122.167.168.20] has joined #lisp 14:46:51 wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.131.4] has joined #lisp 14:46:59 pigdude [~tallen@gateway1.atlantic-media.us] has joined #lisp 14:47:10 not a question about Common Lisp, per se, though I'm open to correction: does any reasonably common lisp define a function equivalent to #'first, but sufficiently general to work on all sequences? 14:47:13 hm. i accidentally typed 'ls' in slime interpreter 14:47:27 now i have a debug split in emacs, and i don't know how to get rid of it and get back to the repl 14:47:36 q 14:47:38 pigdude 14:48:01 "error in process filter: sldb-quit returned [Restart not active [NIL]]" 14:48:03 kehoea: ^ 14:48:20 that means that you don't use slime-repl 14:48:21 <|3b|> sounds like something is broken in your slime setup :/ 14:48:26 yay 14:48:41 <|3b|> ah, i guess that isn't quite 'broken', just not fully configured 14:48:54 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.114.105] has joined #lisp 14:49:03 well, it's fully configured, if you don't want slime-repl 14:49:05 hm...it seems like there's an awful lot of setup when getting into lisp dev. i wonder what i will do here 14:49:12 what should i look at? 14:49:13 but in case you do, (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) is a good way to get it 14:49:37 -!- wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.131.4] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:49:43 <|3b|> well, not sufficiently configured for that advice then :) 14:50:47 greaver [~J@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:51:00 wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.131.4] has joined #lisp 14:51:15 hm... 14:51:32 all i have done is added the lines from the slime install instructions to my .emacs and loaded that 14:51:41 i'm surprised that would fail, seems very official 14:51:47 it doesn't fail 14:51:55 i can't exit the debugger :^) 14:52:08 -!- wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.131.4] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:52:08 you can, select the right restart 14:52:10 Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 14:52:18 the right restart? what is that? 14:52:24 i tried typing 'q' 14:52:35 q wouldn't work in your setup 14:52:42 OK, so no answer on a more general #'first? 14:52:55 kehoea: there's none 14:53:19 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 14:53:23 wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.131.4] has joined #lisp 14:53:42 but i can't exit the debugger, so i can't edit my emacs, so i can't add sime-fancy to my .emacs 14:53:45 -!- pnq [~nick@172.162.8.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:53:53 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053004004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 14:53:54 do i need to quit emacs? 14:53:59 no 14:54:31 try pressing A instead of Q 14:54:37 -!- greaver [~J@212.88.117.162] has quit [Client Quit] 14:54:39 that worked well 14:54:56 thanks, stassats 14:55:01 -!- kehoea [~aidan@2001:7b8:2ff:173::2] has left #lisp 14:56:21 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:26 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:58:32 -!- wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.131.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:01 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@88.116.134.106] has left #lisp 15:01:16 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 15:01:34 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.150.208] has joined #lisp 15:02:45 Areil` [~user@113.172.60.60] has joined #lisp 15:03:31 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:03:38 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.38.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:03:44 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-193-133.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 15:03:59 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:05:07 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:21 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:07:27 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-143-31.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:32 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:09:35 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-128-42.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:10:18 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:45 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.114.105] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 15:11:36 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-46-120.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:57 ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.12] has joined #lisp 15:13:08 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:49 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-143-31.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:14:10 -!- superjudge [~mjl@195.22.80.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:14:54 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:15:55 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.150.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:16:10 Liera [~Liera@113.172.60.60] has joined #lisp 15:16:32 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:37 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-248-241-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:39 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 15:16:53 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:12 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:18:45 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 15:21:28 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:23:13 a tarball of the most recent ansi-tests (from SVN) anyone has it? 15:23:46 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:24:00 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@webuds163-242.rz.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:24:02 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:24:38 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:19 http://xach.com/tmp/ansi-tests.tgz 15:25:54 Xach: thanks a lot :) 15:26:43 thought you would add it to ql? 15:27:18 francogrex: It can't be loaded with asdf, so I have no plans to add it. 15:27:21 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:28:37 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:28:40 true, it's usually just by loading (load "doit.lsp") 15:28:45 Hrmm, SBCL is "deleting unreachable code" that seems reachable to me, and then gives me style warnings that variables I define are never used (because it deleted the code that uses them). 15:28:53 hech, what's bordeaux-threads used for ? 15:28:55 sellout: paste! 15:29:08 Gmind: a portable API to implementation thread interfaces. 15:29:22 sellout: sbcl is right! 15:29:44 (unless you're doing floating point arithmetic :-) 15:29:46 https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo/blob/master/src/method-combination.lisp#L81 15:29:51 If sbcl is wrong, I don't want to be right 15:29:59 -!- Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Quit: Gmind] 15:30:00 It's deleting the uses of writer-object and reader-object 15:30:37 Krystof: But, I don't think it should style-warn if it's due to the compiler stripping unreachable code. 15:31:07 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-46-120.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:31:11 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:21 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-62.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:25 "you had these arguments, but because of stuff that I've deduced they're irrelevant 15:32:31 Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 15:32:43 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:32:59 chiguire [~chiguire@200-35-107-106.static.telcel.net.ve] has joined #lisp 15:33:09 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.150.208] has joined #lisp 15:33:22 and.. parse-number + usocket ? 15:33:28 Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 15:33:45 <|3b|> are they used? 15:33:50 *|3b|* can't tell from the macroexpansion 15:33:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:34:07 |3b| yes, I am asking for their usage or what they are used for 15:34:33 <|3b|> Gmind: sorry, was referring to earlier conversation 15:35:27 <|3b|> Gmind: bordeaux-threads is used to write threaded code that works on multiple implementations, usocket for writing sockets code for multiple implementations, parse-number for parsing numbers :p 15:35:32 |3b| :( nm, I have just logged out , so I don't know too 15:35:59 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:36:06 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:06 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:19 are they written on C code or CL code ? 15:36:28 sellout: can I also see sbcl's output? Or at least have some way to guess which #+#-features you've got? 15:36:37 pirxs [~pirx@195.225.69.9] has joined #lisp 15:36:41 sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:21 Krystof: The relevant features are all pushed in an eval-when at the top of that file. 15:37:33 <|3b|> bx-threads probably mostly calls implementation specific functions, not sure about usocket, but something is calling C at some point for most lisps you would run these days, i'd expect parse-number to be CL 15:38:08 -!- sylecn is now known as sylecn_ 15:39:20 |3b| thanks , I just ask to make sure which one I can make by myself and which must be import 15:39:24 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 15:39:28 *|3b|* 's guess is one of those macrolet's expands to dead code 15:39:30 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:39:40 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.163.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:39:47 sellout: compiling the file gave me two code deletion notes and nothing else 15:40:12 -!- Gmind is now known as morphism 15:40:20 Krystof: hunh. I got the two deletion notices, then 45 style-warnings about unused reader-object and writer-object. 15:40:38 <|3b|> Gmind: those 3 probably are all written in (possibly implementation specific) CL, calling to C is just a side effect of running on OS with C APIs 15:40:44 -!- sylecn_ is now known as sylecn 15:40:52 jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 15:41:14 Krystof: Are you on 1.0.47? 15:41:19 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has joined #lisp 15:42:04 yes 15:42:29 mind you I'm not sure that :arguments does what you think it does 15:42:37 I'm not even sure what it does, in fact 15:43:02 |3b| hmm.... they won't write low level code on CL , will they ? 15:43:42 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 15:43:54 <|3b|> morphism: which 'they'? but no reason not to, depending on what you mean by 'low level' and how much implementation specific code you allow 15:43:55 Krystof: I'm pretty sure it does  and it works on SBCL, even though the code is deleted  15:44:05 Krystof: https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo/issues/11  there's the output I see. 15:44:26 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-60-155.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:55 |3b| :P yay... I will continue my learning slowly...To much things to handle at a time.. 15:44:58 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:45:04 -!- sylecn is now known as sylecn_ 15:45:11 oh, I didn't compile the rest of your code, just that file 15:45:34 ; caught STYLE-WARNING: 15:45:34 ; redefining COMMON-LISP:MAKE-INSTANCE in DEFGENERIC 15:45:55 uh. This puts you squarely in the "unsupported" category 15:46:27 -!- sylecn_ is now known as sylecn__ 15:46:42 -!- sylecn__ is now known as sylecn 15:46:42 wetnosed_ [~kai@e177090079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:50 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.150.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:47:12 Krystof: That's not relevant to this part, though :) And yeah, I need to fix that. 15:47:29 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.150.208] has joined #lisp 15:48:35 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.34.108.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:49:04 -!- replore_ [~replore@ntkngw256114.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:34 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e179013113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:49:55 so I think that the arguments form in method combinations receives arguments from the :method-combination declaration in a defgeneric 15:50:05 and have nothing at all to do with the actual function arguments 15:50:25 -!- morphism [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has left #lisp 15:50:49 is that also what you think? 15:50:50 Krystof: But they have the right values, and actually get used on both CCL and SBCL (despite the apparent deletion). The method-combination arguments are handled in the usual lambda-list postion 15:51:11 (d-m-c name lambda-list ) 15:51:21 That lambda list is the method-combination args. 15:51:21 hm 15:51:41 *sellout* has been learning a lot about method combinations recently :) 15:52:04 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-193-133.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:52:28 sorry, you're right 15:53:10 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:07 Hey, i'm trying to learn bordeaux-threads, but i can't figure out how to work with *default-special-bindings*. I thought this piece of code would work, but it just prints NIL... https://gist.github.com/944522 Anyone got any ideas? 15:54:44 im using sbcl 1.0.45.0 on ubuntu 11.04 15:54:58 with bordeaux-threads from quicklisp 15:55:26 -!- jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:56:00 oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has joined #lisp 15:56:13 ;;; FIXME: in here we have not one but two mini-copies of a weird 15:56:13 ;;; hybrid of PARSE-LAMBDA-LIST and PARSE-DEFMACRO-LAMBDA-LIST. 15:56:16 I have been here before 15:56:17 gglitch [~user@216-80-93-163.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:47 sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:58 *sellout* is excited to see that Krystof has shifted his focus from my code to SBCL code. That is a rarity :) 15:58:08 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-ixvdkdmlrjgakayb] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:58:18 *sellout* needs to find out what libraries are generating all these "Implicitly creating new generic function" STYLE-WARNINGs. 15:58:32 <|3b|> Munksgaard: seems to work here 15:58:47 <|3b|> Munksgaard: are you sure you aren't confusing the return value with the printed value? 15:59:10 <|3b|> Munksgaard: maybe check *inferior-lisp* if you use slime 15:59:20 if you're running this in slime, you may have to look in *inferior-lisp* for the value that the thread prints 15:59:25 ;;; This baby is a complete mess. I can't believe we put it in this 15:59:25 ;;; way. No doubt this is a large part of what drives MLY crazy. 15:59:39 or add *standard-output* to the default special bindings (ba-dm-tshhhh) 15:59:41 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:59:49 <|3b|> Munksgaard: also, why declare *tmp* ignorable? 16:00:30 greaver [~J@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 16:00:59 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@82.166.248.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:01:03 -!- greaver [~J@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:34 Krystof: In case you care, I just pushed a couple commits that get rid of the unrelated warnings (although there are still a bunch of warnings from systems I depend on). 16:01:44 38 now instead of 45. 16:02:37 greaver [~J@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 16:03:13 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:03:17 stassats: thanks, slime-fancy works like a charm and now i see what i would expect to see 16:03:20 stassats: and q work 16:03:28 s 16:03:35 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 16:04:04 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:04:14 ,',nreq ,',nopt) 16:04:14 ,,(when (memq '.ignore. args-lambda-list) 16:04:14 ''(declare (ignore .ignore.))) 16:04:18 oh, come on 16:04:35 Krystof: Hahaha 16:04:35 *lol* 16:04:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-5.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:04:56 |3b|: Hm, i thought i'd get some warnings if i didn't ignore it... I'm using sbcl in a terminal (loading a file every time). I want to print *tmp* which should be 42, but it prints nil here.. 16:04:56 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:04 -!- bsod1__ [~sinan@78.175.13.207] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:23 Munksgaard: are you sure that you run the code which you pasted? 16:06:30 Munksgaard: evaluating (bob) prints 42 for me 16:06:43 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:06:47 that's on OS X, sbcl 1.0.45.4 (I should update) 16:07:37 https://gist.github.com/944546 just cleaned it up a bit. I still don't get 42. 16:07:50 Maybe something is wrong with my version of bordeaux-threads? 16:08:03 still 42 for me 16:08:07 maybe! 16:08:16 (I'm using quicklisp to load b-t) 16:08:53 waaaaargh [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:26 <|3b|> Munksgaard: you should get a warning from that ignorable declaration 16:09:54 |3b|: yeah, i did. Removed it now :-) 16:10:07 *|3b|* still gets 42 as well 16:10:26 xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41] has joined #lisp 16:10:29 is your sbcl built with threads? 16:10:32 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:10:59 sellout: so I think that there is something wrong in the sbcl long-form method combination, but it is currently buried under a mess of backquotes and is (almost) harmless, with the exception of that style warning 16:11:24 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 16:11:46 Krystof: Yeah, totally harmless. Doesn't seem to actually delete the code. 16:12:02 Krystof: As long as I have an excuse for the style warnings :) 16:12:03 stassats: Probably, it's the ubuntu package. But i'm using bordeaux-threads: to identify all the functions and variables, so it shouldn't be a problem? 16:12:30 no, it could be a problem 16:12:35 what does (member :sb-thread *features*) return? 16:12:59 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:13:04 pnq [~nick@AC81DBD5.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:47 (:SB-THREAD :LARGEFILE :GENCGC :STACK-GROWS-DOWNWARD-NOT-UPWARD :C-STACK-IS-CONTROL-STACK :COMPARE-AND-SWAP-VOPS :UNWIND-TO-FRAME-AND-CALL-VOP :RAW-INSTANCE-INIT-VOPS :STACK-ALLOCATABLE-CLOSURES :STACK-ALLOCATABLE-VECTORS :STACK-ALLOCATABLE-LISTS :STACK-ALLOCATABLE-FIXED-OBJECTS :ALIEN-CALLBACKS :CYCLE-COUNTER :INLINE-CONSTANTS :MEMORY-BARRIER-VOPS :LINKAGE-TABLE 16:13:58 stassats: ^ 16:14:08 yes 16:14:12 and some more stuff 16:14:38 italic [~italic@cpe-67-242-144-94.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:50 stassats: That is a good use-case for FIND  shorter pastes ;) 16:15:24 sellout: yeah, sorry, guess i should've pasted it somewhere 16:15:40 <|3b|> Munksgaard: only interesting bit was that it wasn't NIL 16:16:30 sellout: i conditioned myself to always use member on lists, so that i don't use FIND accidentally 16:16:37 So sb-threads interferes with my bordeaux-threads? 16:16:47 <|3b|> no, bordeaux-threads uses sb-threads 16:17:13 POSITION is another option, but i would expect incrementing an index to take some resources 16:17:14 The CLHS says READ-BYTE on a non-binary input stream should signal error, but SBCL seems to ignore this for streams of type CHARACTER? 16:17:17 <|3b|> but might behave differently if your sbcl didn't support threads, in which case that would have returned NIL 16:17:48 easyE: are you sure that it ignores it? are you sure that your stream isn't a bivalent stream (standard streams on sbcl are bivalent) 16:18:06 *easyE* checks. 16:18:14 |3b|: i checked and bordeaux-threads signals an error on make-thread without threads 16:18:49 -!- gglitch [~user@216-80-93-163.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 16:20:22 jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has joined #lisp 16:20:36 <|3b|> Munksgaard: maybe try (asdf:system-source-directory 'bordeaux-threads) and make sure it doesn't point into some system dir? 16:20:48 <|3b|> (is that the correct way to ask ASDF where something is?) 16:20:53 |3b|: ya 16:21:01 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:21:13 with this code: https://gist.github.com/944546#comments i get 2 lines containing "*tmp*:" in my terminal, but not when using slime :-S 16:21:22 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 16:21:28 |3b|: it does -.- /usr/share/common-lisp/source/bordeaux-threads/" 16:21:31 in slime it would appear in *inferior-lisp* buffer 16:21:32 gah 16:21:55 <|3b|> well, step 1 of #lisp advice is nuke distro lisp stuff from orbit 16:21:57 stassats: ah, yeah, there it is :) 16:22:24 (ql:use-only-quicklisp-systems) might work, in a fresh lisp 16:22:24 unless you have *globally-redirect-io* set to T in .swank.lisp 16:22:25 |3b|: yeah, i thought i'd do that by only installing sbcl from packages and everything else using quicklisp :-( 16:22:33 So  now that Krystof has declared it suitable for human consumption, if anyone want to play with Design by Contract, I would appreciate as much banging on https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo as possible (as long as you use CCL, SBCL, or Allegro). 16:23:03 Developers of other implementations are welcome to help me sort out why it doesn't work on them :) 16:23:06 sellout: sorry for the tangent, but your typesetters ellipses are not present in my font and it makes me a little sad each time 16:23:30 Xach: Sorry. I do tend to use those a lot. 16:24:20 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-15-185-57.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:24:51 sellout: hah, you are called Matthias Hölzl? (: 16:25:28 <|3b|> Munksgaard: plans like that failing is one reason we suggest getting rid of it completely :/ 16:25:56 antifuchs: No. He wrote this back in 2007  although, I think there's almost nothing left of that. But still, it's where I started from. 16:27:13 EG, he just shadowed DEFCLASS and MAKE-INSTANCE. I play a bit nicer. Although apparently not all implementations agree ;) 16:27:33 *|3b|* guesses google must like github, those 2 gists are already the top 2 hits for bordeaux-threads:*default-special-bindings* 16:27:56 sellout: have you tried using c2cl package? 16:28:05 anyone familiar with lispbuilder-sdl? i'm trying to apply a transform matrix to a surface 16:28:07 |3b|: tell me about it... there aren't a lot of pages about bordeaux.... 16:28:12 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has left #lisp 16:28:28 <|3b|> Munksgaard: it also says 'About 1,040,000 results' :p 16:28:29 the best tutorial i could find was the one for iolib, hence the (declare (ignore *tmp*)) statements 16:28:32 stassats: I'm not familiar with it. 16:28:50 <|3b|> though i guess they get pretty bad pretty quick 16:28:55 sellout: it's from closer-mop 16:29:09 c2cl is a nickname for closer-common-lisp 16:29:11 stassats: Oh, yeah, I do that. 16:29:20 sellout: So you can't define contracts for regular functions? 16:29:25 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.150.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:29:55 drdo: Correct. 16:30:14 Is that because there's no way to implement it? 16:30:15 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:31 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:30:44 how can i recall repl history in slime? 16:30:49 gor[e] [~svr@87.242.97.4] has joined #lisp 16:30:50 and just move my cursor about 16:30:55 pigdude: M-p M-n 16:31:13 sellout: I think that it's possible that your method combination code is in fact broken 16:31:21 drdo: Well, there are implementation-specific ways to do it, but I don't know that anyone has implemented a portability layer for advice. And I don't want to do it ;) 16:31:24 C-up C-down 16:31:27 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:37 drdo: phew, i thought that was compound :^) thanks! 16:31:37 Krystof: I'm not too surprised  any idea where? 16:31:42 not actually sure 16:32:07 It has started to get a bit out of control. Due for a refactoring. 16:32:07 stassats: Arrow keys are evil 16:32:24 whatever 16:32:25 well that too 16:32:27 they really are 16:32:33 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:32:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:33:30 pigdude: Also, something i didn't know at first that is very useful, if you type something and then use M-p M-n it will only bring up history that starts with what you typed 16:33:43 can you try replacing (or writer-object reader-object) with `(or ,writer-object ,reader-object)? 16:33:58 drdo: oh neat like bash history completin 16:33:58 Krystof: Ah, sure. 16:34:20 pigdude: bash doesn't work like that here, is it an option? 16:35:07 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110323131629]] 16:35:08 sellout: reasoning is that you don't want to evaluate that (or ...) when the method is combined, you want to do it when the generic function / effective method is actually called 16:35:24 BountyX [~erhan@137.148.235.29] has joined #lisp 16:35:36 drdo: in bash, you use and type 16:35:40 drdo: but it is the same idea 16:36:01 the key point is "Each parameter variable defined by lambda-list is bound to a form that can be inserted into the effective method. When this form is evaluated during execution of the effective method, its value is the corresponding argument to the generic function" 16:36:04 -!- BountyX [~erhan@137.148.235.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:55 now sbcl's idea of being helpful here is binding the writer-object lambda-list-variable to the symbol writer-object 16:37:15 so even though you're using the wrong level of evaluation (I think; my brain hurts) it ends up mostly working 16:37:51 Bike [~arm@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 16:38:16 -!- chiguire [~chiguire@200-35-107-106.static.telcel.net.ve] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:39:41 kirkwood [~user@c-24-17-10-251.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:06 Krystof: I get the same style-warnings. 16:40:20 (deleted all my fasls first) 16:41:37 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:52 bother 16:43:21 BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-235-29.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 16:44:49 |3b|, stassats: yay, nuking distro lisp stuff and starting anew worked. Thanks guys 16:45:33 ikki [~ikki@189.247.112.139] has joined #lisp 16:45:47 Krystof: Thanks for your help, though. I don't want you to get too distracted for my sake. 16:46:06 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:46:07 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:07 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:23 odd 16:48:37 remove and delete won't work if the list will turn out to be empty? o_O 16:48:58 Landr: Umm, of course they will. What are you doing? 16:48:59 Landr: they return the new value 16:49:09 argh 16:49:12 i keep forgetting that 16:49:13 neither is necessarily destructive (if that's what you're expecting) 16:49:30 billitch1 [~billitch@78.251.128.14] has joined #lisp 16:49:34 *|3b|* suspects it is more expecting them to be able to change bindings 16:49:36 stupid functional language, have side-effects! 16:49:38 precognition-b-us 16:49:44 -!- gor[e] [~svr@87.242.97.4] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:50:03 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 16:50:26 <|3b|> Landr: delete has side effects :p 16:50:37 yes, but not the ones i expected 16:50:40 :P 16:50:43 <|3b|> it just can't change bindings since it is a function 16:50:47 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.133.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:51:03 <|3b|> (or places in general) 16:51:15 sellout: do you get the two code deletion notes when you do that, though? 16:52:10 gor[e]_ [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 16:52:10 -!- gor[e]_ [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 16:52:14 the code deletion notes are (I think) from "clearly" doing things at the wrong level of evaluation 16:52:19 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:52:22 joeygibson [~joeygibso@c-98-230-153-52.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:28 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 16:52:36 -!- Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:52:42 you evaluate (or writer-method reader-method) when writer-method and reader-method are bound to forms that will, when evaluated, evaluate to the generic function's arguments 16:53:00 rather than evaluating it when the generic function's arguments are known 16:53:05 that's why reader-method gets deleted twice 16:53:34 Krystof: I did not  ah, ha. That makes sense :) 16:53:38 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54:25 Krystof: Ok, cool. Definite improvement then :) 16:54:37 ok. The style-warnings I think come from generic functions with no invariants 16:55:43 Krystof: In Emacs, the form (or writer-object reader-object) had the "or" underlined and marked deleted  so I figured it was the entire or form  which it maybe was? Replaced by the value of writer-object? 16:55:57 I think so 16:56:02 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-229-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 16:56:21 c|mell [~cmell@77.77.253.169] has joined #lisp 16:56:26 Krystof: I tried inserting (declare (ignorable )) somewhere, but couldn't figure out where that should be. 16:56:41 dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:56:50 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-229-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:57:13 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 16:58:06 yeah, nor me 16:58:09 hold on, looking at more source 17:00:38 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:01:06 *sellout* wonders if CMUCL will like it better now. 17:01:18 Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has joined #lisp 17:02:03 wccoder [~wccoder@d64-180-206-148.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:17 -!- waaaaargh [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:02:36 -!- Kraymes [~Kraymnes@pool-71-167-55-33.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:02:58 rme_ [~rme@pool-70-104-103-194.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:19 Hrmm, I wish I had kept track of how many test failures there were in CMUCL before. There are five now, and that seems lower than expected. 17:03:32 -!- rme [rme@clozure-F0982C22.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 17:03:33 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 17:04:24 so I think that you can sort out the style warnings with 17:04:35 (declare (ignorable reader-object writer-object)) 17:04:41 just after the :arguments clause 17:04:58 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-94-111.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:04:59 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 17:05:13 Krystof: I had them there  but maybe that didn't work because of my OR mess. 17:05:52 well, they work for me! 17:06:26 no, they don't 17:06:30 Heh :) 17:06:33 I called the wrong FROB function 17:06:34 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:06:43 (how many frobs must a man have in his lisp image?) 17:06:55 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:07:10 The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind. 17:07:30 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.231.88] has joined #lisp 17:08:46 quite possibly 17:08:52 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:08:54 I think the answer for sellout is "you can't" 17:09:01 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:10:46 that's a bit sucky. Workaround is: use (:arguments &whole whole), and do `(let ((reader-object (car whole)) (writer-object (cadr whole))) (declare (ignorable reader-object writer-object)) ...) as part of your method combination 17:11:14 waaaaargh [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-64.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:15 I would expect cmucl to whine in a similar way 17:12:40 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:12:44 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:13:25 -!- joeygibson [~joeygibso@c-98-230-153-52.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: joeygibson] 17:14:53 ;;; Support el-bizarro arglist partitioning for the long form of 17:14:53 ;;; DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION. 17:15:04 it's not just sbcl that *boggles* at supporting this 17:15:55 -!- waaaaargh [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:16:08 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:29 Krystof: Well, CMUCL definitely breaks worse than SBCL with this code. I think all the same style warnings but also some runtime errors that baffle me. 17:16:38 I can't help with cmucl runtime errors 17:17:04 Krystof: I think that &whole will work in my case, but definitely doesn't have the same semantics. 17:17:21 -!- BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-235-29.csuohio.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:22 ccl has a hardcoded (declare (ignorable ...)) when it processes the long-form method combination arguments, which I guess is fair enough because you can't do it yourself but also hides some mistakes 17:17:38 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.112.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18:13 Krystof: Well, CCL does generally err more on the side of silence :) 17:18:20 anyway. That was fun but not what I should be doing, and it's hometime 17:18:31 Yeah, much appreciated. 17:19:07 -!- Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:19:24 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:59 fun allegroism: 17:20:59 (defstruct foo x) 17:20:59 (defstruct (bar (:include foo) (:conc-name "foo-")) y) 17:21:02 => Warning: operator foo-x defined more than once. :( 17:21:15 *sykopomp* wonders who else warns about that. 17:22:21 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:22:43 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:22:48 -!- Bike [~arm@69.166.35.237] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:22:51 sykopomp: I warn about using Allegro all the time. 17:22:58 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:28 sykopomp: I seem to remember fixing a similar bug in ccl at one point. 17:23:54 paul0 [~user@187.112.66.124] has joined #lisp 17:23:55 *rme* shudders at the memory of hacking on the hairy defstruct macro 17:25:34 lol, just send the screencast about quicklisp to hacker news, whoa, this quicklisp screencast was a rea 17:25:41 oops 17:25:44 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2490257 17:26:05 SBCL doesn't warn. but then again it doesn't seem to cause an issue either 17:26:07 ah yes, good old http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/390 17:26:50 Bike [~arm_of_th@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 17:27:12 hmm, i've got a pathname for a directory, but i can't seem to figure out how to extract the final directory name from it; e.g., from #p"/dir1/dir2/", get "dir2" 17:28:32 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:35 (car (last (pathname-directory #p"/dir1/dir2/"))) 17:28:44 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-qbrnsqcpvpitiywc] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:28:58 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:29:04 Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 17:29:12 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:29:37 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:29:40 paul0: gifs are so passe 17:30:12 stassats: perfect, thanks 17:31:02 waaaaargh [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:06 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:31:12 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:31:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-5.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:34:05 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:34:39 Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:16 -!- wetnosed_ [~kai@e177090079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:47 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 17:38:41 -!- silenius [~silenus@p549474D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:40:17 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:19 rme: thanks for that link! 17:41:10 alama: Do you really want just the string "dir2"? Or are you going to use it as part of a pathname, too? 17:41:18 It should make the bug report to Franz pretty easy to write... 17:41:45 rme: it did. :) 17:41:51 Xach: i do want just the string 17:41:57 varjag [~eugene@62.249.169.4] has joined #lisp 17:42:29 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:42:40 Xach: hmm, well, i do use that extracted string later on to construct a path (actually, the same that path that the string came from) 17:42:49 stassats: fashion has cycled around and now gifs are retro cool 17:43:06 e.g. http://iwdrm.tumblr.com/ 17:43:07 Xach: damn hipsters. 17:44:04 alama: the same? 17:44:14 Xach: the same 17:44:32 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:45:39 Xach: the final component of these paths are names of objects (not clos objects, just informal objects); i operate on these (names of) objects in various ways, and at times i need to know precisely where these "objects" live; at this point, i reconstruct the path from which the name of the object came 17:45:59 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:27 alama: Gotcha. I do something similar with quicklisp upstream source objects 17:47:11 -!- Areil` [~user@113.172.60.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:47:16 yeah, I can imagine that this is not an uncommon pattern; it feels a bit inelegant -- you're hitting on something that feels uncomfortably redundant, but i'm not sure i know a smarter way around, or whether there is much gain to thinking of something better 17:47:25 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.60.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:47:39 dlowe [~dlowe@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 17:48:10 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:17 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:50:30 -!- xan_ [~xan@205.158.58.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:51:16 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:41 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-175.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:53:33 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-64.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:53:40 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:54:45 Areil [~user@113.172.49.251] has joined #lisp 17:55:35 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-193-133.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 17:56:02 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugo 17:56:14 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-193-133.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:57:35 -!- hugo is now known as hugod_ 18:00:07 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441465.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod_] 18:00:09 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:00:29 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:32 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441465.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:01:34 BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-248-47.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 18:02:06 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:26 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 18:02:38 carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.135] has joined #lisp 18:02:42 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host217-43-219-207.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:42 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host217-43-219-207.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:02:42 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:05:08 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-229-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 18:05:59 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441465.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod_] 18:06:04 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl15-229-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:06:21 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441465.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:07:04 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:07:56 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:08:48 lanthan [~ze@ip-90-186-111-81.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 18:10:14 whiiiiiii 18:10:17 -!- lanthan [~ze@ip-90-186-111-81.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:10:47 is there a greater rush than finally reaching the end of a long stretch of code creating stacks of functions and having it run flawlessly? 18:10:58 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:11:27 a green bar of tests! 18:11:45 lanthan [~ze@ip-90-186-111-81.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 18:11:53 soon your euphoria will pass and you'll see that it's full of bugs 18:11:53 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:14:05 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C7379.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:16 :( 18:15:22 -!- paul0 [~user@187.112.66.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:24 *Landr* stabs stassats for his premonition being right 18:15:39 -!- greaver [~J@212.88.117.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:51 Sure, stab the messenger. 18:16:00 obviously he jinxed it! 18:16:04 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-093-204.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:54 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:17:06 xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 18:17:27 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:32 blargh 18:17:44 how do i convince my gethash that literal values are fine too? 18:17:54 i somehow lost the ability to map literal lists 18:18:27 your understanding is off track somewhere 18:19:06 does it work for non-literal lists? 18:19:17 sure, because those i have by reference 18:19:28 if i set A to (cons 1 2) then I can easily retrieve it 18:19:39 ah yes, last time I fixed this i used maphash as a replacement :< 18:19:44 your hash table :test is wrong? 18:19:46 Landr: how did you create the hash table? 18:19:58 chiguire [~chiguire@200-35-107-106.static.telcel.net.ve] has joined #lisp 18:19:59 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:20:29 Landr: why do you even need a hash-table if you use a hash-table if you can easily retrieve A without a hash-table? 18:20:48 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:20:52 well, I'm setting tags to a code 18:21:05 example: (title . war) --> T1 18:21:21 however, I can't do (gethash '(title . war) *table*) 18:21:27 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-31-42.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 18:21:34 Areil` [~user@113.172.34.215] has joined #lisp 18:21:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:21:41 ahh 18:21:44 because it's not an equal-hashtable? 18:21:51 probably, yes 18:21:52 :< 18:22:11 pass :test #'equal to make-hash-table? 18:22:19 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:20 is there a pdf of http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ ? 18:22:27 anyway, if i were to add tags to code, i would store code in some more structured data-structure 18:22:33 good evening everyone 18:22:36 pigdude: it was once available from apress.com at no cost, but I don't think they still have a link for it. 18:22:41 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 18:22:44 pigdude: there is, but it's not official anymore 18:22:52 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.49.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:22:52 stassats: but I need the O(1) that hash tables provide me with 18:23:00 Blkt, good even squire 18:23:04 evening* 18:23:07 hi Blkt 18:23:08 that way I can instantly get a list of all books that have the tag (title . war) 18:23:18 Landr: you will get even better O(1) with my approach 18:23:23 howso? 18:23:26 hi fe[nl]ix and Guthur 18:23:35 splittist [~splittist@AMontsouris-553-1-87-245.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:23:57 morning 18:24:03 mark__ [~markskilb@host217-43-219-207.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:12 O(1) can still be slow 18:24:14 oh, i thought the source code would contain book source, it is example source 18:24:16 Landr: because you store tags directly beside the code, although what you're describing now isn't what you were describing initially 18:24:36 well, the tags point to a code, which is used in another table to get the full entry of a book 18:24:51 anywho http://www.maht0x0r.net/library/computing/practicalcommonlisp.pdf 18:25:03 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:25:10 for example, (title . war) --> catalog-table --> T01 and then T01 --> entry-table --> ((author (leo tolstoy)) (title (war and peace)) (categories ... etc, 18:25:25 pigdude: well, most people use the HTML copy on author's site 18:25:45 pigdude: and yes, it's one of the best books out there to start learning CL :) 18:26:55 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:26:56 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:04 shouldn't most people use the dead-tree version? 18:27:23 p_l|backup: yea, i just like to have a copy that remembers my position, is fully searchable, and doesn't require network :^) 18:27:41 stassats: that might be good also 18:27:44 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:28:39 whether you use it or not, you should purchase it (: 18:28:42 -!- chiguire [~chiguire@200-35-107-106.static.telcel.net.ve] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:46 stassats: yeah, but getting it can be problematic for some (I didn't have a chance so far, usually lacking free funds) 18:28:52 -!- BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-248-47.csuohio.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:36 nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-54-207.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:29:43 e-book :> 18:30:28 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:30:42 BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-248-47.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 18:30:42 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: #emacs] 18:31:48 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.1.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:32:43 -!- BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-248-47.csuohio.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:34 enthymeme [~kraken@pool-173-51-221-118.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:03 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host81-152-166-48.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:03 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host81-152-166-48.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:34:03 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:34:21 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-54-207.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:36:48 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:48 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host217-43-219-207.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:37:17 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75705b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:29 xinming [~hyy@115.221.1.156] has joined #lisp 18:37:41 mark__ [~markskilb@host81-132-123-208.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:03 -!- Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:39:12 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:39:47 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:39:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-5.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:40:23 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:29 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-16-244.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 18:41:00 stis_ [~stis@host-95-197-232-103.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:06 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:41:11 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 18:41:15 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-16-244.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42:36 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:36 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host81-132-123-208.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:45:06 chiguire [~chiguire@200-35-107-106.static.telcel.net.ve] has joined #lisp 18:45:45 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:48:00 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:49:49 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:38 -!- pirxs [~pirx@195.225.69.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:06 I'd rather just paypal gigamonkey the money rather than get another dead-tree book 18:52:19 I'm not sure he could legally take it, though 18:52:22 I heart dead tree books. 18:52:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-5.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:52:47 *Xach* mailed his copy to mega1 18:52:48 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:56 probably the last person on earth who needs it now... 18:53:28 oooh, you can get it in epub now 18:55:21 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-61-206.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:55:35 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.231.88] has left #lisp 18:56:07 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-61-206.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 18:56:13 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 18:56:16 epub readers do such a bad job of showing section breaks I wonder how they do with source code 18:56:16 Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 18:56:50 The nook is ok. I do think mobi is the better format, though 18:59:07 practical common lisp in ebook ? 18:59:10 What's the recommended ORM for CL? cliki lists hu.dwim.perec but it has too little docs and doesn't support easy-to-setup backends like sqlite. 18:59:18 now I regret buying the paper version 18:59:41 Why? 19:00:02 why do i often see ;; as comment and not just ; ? 19:00:08 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:21 because I'm not gonna pay a second time for the same content, and ebook are incredibly practical (easy to carry, searchable content) 19:00:21 francogrex [~user@109.130.70.136] has joined #lisp 19:00:32 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-16-244.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:00:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-16-244.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 19:00:42 crap even PAIP is available for 90 bucks on amazon 19:00:48 and I payed the same price for the paper version 19:00:51 pigdude: Convention is ;;;; at the top of a file, ;;; later in the file, ;; within comments on their own line, ; if the comment follows some code on the same line. 19:01:21 Xach: i do not understand the 2nd and 3rd cases 19:02:19 paper version? as compared to what, the glass version? 19:02:34 ebook, methings. 19:02:40 s/things/thinks/ 19:02:55 yep, ebook version 19:03:46 pigdude: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121624 has examples of where you'd use each, with nonsense code 19:03:48 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.70.136] has quit [Client Quit] 19:04:00 Oops. I managed to omit the ;;;;s at the top of the file. 19:04:11 francogrex [~user@109.130.70.136] has joined #lisp 19:04:17 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-78-59.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:22 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:04:27 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:06:18 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-60-155.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:06:19 -!- chiguire [~chiguire@200-35-107-106.static.telcel.net.ve] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:07:41 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@pool-173-51-221-118.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:08:05 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:09:14 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:41 ok, thank Xach 19:10:48 in other news, good god is emacs painful to use! 19:10:55 full featured or not, slimv for me 19:11:23 it's when i started wanting to undo stuff etc...that the wrist pain sets in 19:11:37 You're doing it wrong. 19:11:38 Xach: this all maks sense, thanks 19:11:48 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:11:49 I haven't set up slimv.vim yet. 19:11:51 Want to. 19:12:20 Modes exist. You're either in command mode or editing mode with emacs, only the command mode is not persistent and is achieved by holding down a meta key. 19:12:21 C-/ 19:12:23 easy :> 19:12:36 Landr: it compounds however 19:12:47 well, don't make mistakes then! ;) 19:12:48 Landr: C-//// is tough on my wrist compared to uuuuuuu 19:12:51 hehe 19:13:04 er, C-_ 19:13:22 vsedach [~user@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:13:51 bah: left hand Ctrl and shift, right hand _ 19:14:00 chiguire [~chiguire@200-35-107-106.static.telcel.net.ve] has joined #lisp 19:14:15 Two meta keys on one hand, one key on the other? 19:14:29 Let us put this unpleasantness behind us and speak of Lisp. 19:14:33 takes two fingers (if you have Ctrl remapped to CapsLock) 19:14:46 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@69.166.35.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:04 what else is IRC used for if not flame wars? 19:15:12 hehe 19:15:21 blackwolf: ...you'd be surprised 19:15:21 Xach: yes, lisp is a lovely oasis 19:15:26 -!- mtd__ is now known as mtd 19:15:30 (file distribution being quite a big use) 19:15:35 *splittist* abuses alexandria:destructuring-case (and format). Wrap enough macros around it and it looks data-driven... 19:15:41 it's lovely but i still don't feel at ease hovering so far off the metal-ground 19:15:44 My last comment on the topic is that I regularly wish to like Emacs, and am regularly re-educated by the wrist pain. 19:15:56 Landr: ... the funny thing, it's not that far from metal 19:15:56 -!- mtd is now known as Guest88168 19:16:16 Landr: Bah. What other language mandates a function like DISASSEMBLE? 19:16:18 ChibaPet: I recommend rearranging the keyboard assignments, or the fingers you use for bucky bits 19:16:26 and pedals 19:17:15 i don't really understand why disassemble exists 19:17:16 quite a lot depends on the angle of your wrists. If you try to keep them straight, it helps a lot 19:17:28 i mean, fine, you have the implementation code, so now what? 19:17:39 it's not like you can start modifying it 19:17:43 -!- waaaaargh [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:17:48 Landr: debugging 19:17:56 Landr: optimizing 19:17:58 also, analyzing for performance 19:18:09 *Landr* 's debugging consists of (format t "now the value of ~A is ~A~%" this that) 19:18:16 Bike [~arm_of_th@69.166.35.231] has joined #lisp 19:18:20 Landr: you can understand better how it's compiled, and thus the results of optimisation and rewrites. 19:18:27 Landr: You can use it to guide optimization for your favorite implementation, e.g. answer questions like "Was char= inlined?" 19:18:47 it's one thing to play with rearranging code and optimization options, but it's better when you can read the assembly 19:19:00 Landr: yea, that's how i always debug stuff...it seemed like everybody in lisp is crazy about slime so it seemed essential 19:19:13 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:19:21 Landr: but people think i'm crazy, even though in several years of programming there's never been a problem i needed a debugger to solve 19:19:22 pigdude: because there's a big difference made by good debugger 19:19:27 i suppose 19:19:30 slime is pretty nice. some people get by without it. whatever you use, make sure it supports you well. 19:19:41 pigdude: of course, it doesn't mean you *can't* do without debugger 19:19:44 for instance, JS people think firebug debugger is so crucial, and i never once use firebug debugger in some very heavy JS dev 19:20:01 I often work without touching the debugger for anything else other than backtrace 19:20:09 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:20:11 though in C, DDD saved my bacon several times 19:20:20 well, I never worked on big enough projects to mandate debugging 19:20:24 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:20:25 or complex enough ones, for that matter 19:20:36 pigdude: being able to quickly inspect stack frames makes me forget that I even did any debugging for most cases. When inspecting stack frames and objects isn't enough, it's print time. :) 19:21:41 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 19:21:51 -!- vsedach [~user@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 19:21:56 Landr: I have a piece ofcode that is 290 LOC, and DDD's datastructure visualisation was essential for me to make it work 19:21:56 usually stack trace is good enough for me 19:21:59 and i just walk around the code 19:22:42 pigdude: well, the SLDB makes it easy to jump to function source from the stack frame, or call INSPECT on arguments 19:23:05 :\ I guess i'll have to look into the debugger someday 19:23:11 I haven't really needed more than that, and it makes for less writing of logging 19:23:53 -!- Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has left #lisp 19:24:12 being able to walk around the heap graph while the program is interrupted is really awesomely useful. 19:26:38 Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 19:26:44 LoL.. 19:27:06 hmm 19:27:13 -!- The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:27:13 Xach, u r the author of QuickLisp ? 19:27:33 I r. 19:27:37 is it possible to get the symbol of the function A that called another function B from within function B without passing it along from A? 19:27:56 Landr: There is no standard way. 19:28:00 novaburst [~novaburst@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 19:28:03 darn, ah well, passing it is 19:29:02 is there anyway to replace my current CCL 1.6 on Lispbox with SBCL 1.0.46 ? 19:29:04 Landr: what would you do with that if you could? 19:29:05 pkhuong: yeah, that's why I love DDD, it visualizes the heap for C :) 19:29:07 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-193-133.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:29:16 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C7379.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:29:27 kpreid: a logging function, "i was called by function ... with the values ..." 19:29:29 Gmind: I'd recommend getting rid of Lispbox, personally, and switch to Quicklisp 19:29:34 silenius [~silenus@p549474D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:36 The_Fellow [~The_Fello@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:45 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-193-133.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:29:46 arguments* rather 19:30:47 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:30:48 Landr: ah. you can make context-sensitiveness like that if you have a macro which knows the function name and the logger is itself a macro (i.e. (defmyfun foo (...) ... (log bar))), but also maybe have a look at TRACE 19:30:58 -!- billitch1 [~billitch@78.251.128.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:20 p_l|backup, I'm newbie to CL =.= , so ... if I leave it, how can I set-up a CL IDE on EMacs myself ? 19:31:33 use slime ? perhaps... 19:31:45 i'll just do (format log-file "~S" `(list functionname ,@arguments)) 19:31:55 Gmind: Download sbcl, download emacs, download quicklisp. 19:32:02 Gmind: slime works with ccl, too. 19:32:06 :D Done 19:32:11 That is all. 19:32:22 (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") will help you set up slime 19:32:23 Landr: You're getting it in the backtrace. or by using (trace ) 19:32:57 No need to modify your code to find what arguments some function is called with. 19:33:01 Gmind: or do what i do, use vim, and map to :w !sbcl for lisp filetype :^) 19:33:07 -!- alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:33:10 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:33:23 wouldn't that be rather inefficient? the logging is supposed to be part of the program 19:33:32 -!- Areil` [~user@113.172.34.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:33:32 i mean, it's not about debugging 19:33:39 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 19:33:39 and lots of slime-fancy. The default seems to be (or at least was) for people who don't like slime... 19:35:43 hankhero [~Adium@213.89.201.154] has joined #lisp 19:36:26 Xach, thanks 19:36:45 pigdude: on VIM ? is it still have REPL like EMacs ? 19:37:00 simonh [~simonh@2.101.33.14] has joined #lisp 19:37:02 fisxoj [~fisxoj@149.43.190.120] has joined #lisp 19:38:11 Bike1 [~arm_of_th@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 19:38:45 Landr: You're logging internal function name and arguments? 19:39:09 Landr: then you'd need access to implementation-specific interfaces (like backtraces) 19:39:25 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@69.166.35.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:39:45 -!- simonh [~simonh@2.101.33.14] has left #lisp 19:39:57 Gmind: no, i invoke repl with `sbcl`. but slime has nice completion/suggestion 19:40:19 Gmind: there is slimv but it was definitely doing too much, screwing with my other plugins 19:40:28 Gmind: so i'm not messing with slimv for now 19:40:57 pigdude: Sadly, vim makes it too easy for plugins to break each other. 19:41:00 Gmind: you could just as well have a screen window/terminal tab open with emacs just for slime repl, since it's a little nicer 19:41:33 naryl: well, for my database, i have it record every transaction 19:41:43 naryl: yea, it is a less partitioned environment, but a disciplined vim plugin author knows how to keep stuff private to the plugin 19:41:48 so for example, if i do (add-new-item blah dee foobar) it'll record that very thing in the logfile 19:41:58 theoretically, this should allow me to recreate the database at any moment in time 19:42:06 just step through the logfile, executing every transaction 19:42:45 Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 19:43:08 realistically though i'd probably want to 'compress' it at several times, creating a base from which all transactions are started again 19:43:17 kind of like a constant diff :> 19:43:26 except with commands rather than the actual files 19:44:26 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:45:16 Landr: have you looked at bknr.datastore? that's pretty much exactly what it does. 19:46:22 well, i won't be working with actual objects, just lists of lists of lists 19:46:27 macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.209.228] has joined #lisp 19:46:38 a list is an object. 19:47:02 hmm 19:48:28 a cons is an object 19:48:44 an object that cares 19:49:00 you must incinerate it to proceed, however 19:49:01 Landr: you don't need to check for who-calls though, do you? 19:49:22 you incinerated your cons faster than any subject on record. 19:49:23 Landr: I'd go with kpreid's solution of a macro that expands into defun, then. 19:49:36 who-calls? 19:49:38 Landr: don't eat the cake, though. It's true, but deadly -_- 19:49:39 waaaaargh [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:59 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81DBD5.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:50:00 Landr: you mentioned checking for what function called 19:50:25 -!- hankhero [~Adium@213.89.201.154] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:50:40 Thank you guys, my Emacs + Slime + Sbcl now worked like charm :D even faster than that lispbox ^ ^ 19:50:44 well, or having each function record its actions (log `('my-name ,@args)) 19:51:35 Landr: for database log, you only ned to log data changes 19:51:51 well yes, that's why only specific functions would be logged 19:51:58 mainly the ones that add, modify, or delete entries 19:52:03 Landr: joe marshall wrote a series of blog posts on this topic as well 19:52:47 -!- Guest88168 is now known as mtd_ 19:53:17 -!- mtd_ is now known as Guest15875 19:53:19 damnit, why didn't i hear about bknr earlier >.< 19:53:22 all my work for nothing! 19:53:27 hh 19:53:30 *heh 19:53:31 (*note: did not actually do a lot of work) 19:53:34 -!- Guest15875 is now known as mtd__ 19:54:00 ... someone got a fre Thinkpad R61i keyboard to share? 19:54:46 *p_l|backup* ponders between getting a new laptop or paying the £30~£40 for keyboard FRU 19:55:11 fru? 19:57:00 How do you share a keyboard? One person handles the left keys and the other the right? 19:57:31 quantum superposition 19:57:55 Landr: Field-replaceable unit 19:58:19 ah 19:58:25 rtoym: I could try to explain it, but my brain would implode and turn into singularity 19:58:55 pnq [~nick@ACA28968.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:10 p_l|backup: Solves your keyboard problem, though. :-) 20:01:22 rtoym: and possibly FTL comms and travel ^_- 20:02:10 (it's actually related to infamous scene in 4th Harry Potter movie, regarding how a certain house showed up...) 20:02:47 Xach: Thanks for inadvertently pointing me to bknr.datastore. It deserves to be in cliki's recommended libraries list. 20:03:08 Hmm. I don't remember that scene in the 4th movie. Time to see it again, I guess. 20:03:45 rtoym: the way they visualised Fidelius charm. Someone mentioned that the physics of stuffing two diffrent objects into the same space make him go crazy 20:03:55 (some viewer, that is) 20:04:39 ... hanging around people who seriously look into physics of fiction universes and actually trying to work them out in fanfiction leaves weird impression 20:05:13 Sounds kind of fun, though. 20:06:17 what's there not to understand about Z-space? where do you think your mass goes when you morph? same thing 20:06:22 mbrezu` [~user@178.156.179.144] has joined #lisp 20:07:24 Landr: personally, I developed a complex physics/magic system as a basis for most of my fiction writing, so that I can pull out nearly anything (maybe except acausality) without breaking suspension of disbelief :) 20:07:56 "it's magic, I ain't gotta explain anything" is good enough :P for both fiction and programming 20:08:30 "how does setf know how to adjust a reference instead of a value?" "magic!" 20:08:33 Landr: I like well built, cohesive worlds 20:08:48 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:09:00 Landr: ... that's covered somewhere inhyperspec, and I believe I had to know it at some point 20:09:53 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:10:12 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_aa.htm this, probably 20:10:25 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:11:18 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:11:26 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 20:12:04 rtoym: do you happen to be familiar with lisp-matrix at all? 20:14:27 -!- chiguire [~chiguire@200-35-107-106.static.telcel.net.ve] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:04 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75705b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:05 naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-53-167.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:16:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-5.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:16:56 i wonder what would be fastest 20:17:02 encoding the operations directly into binary 20:17:07 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-68.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:17:23 or just using format to write them out human-readable for, and then using something like gzip 20:17:24 Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has joined #lisp 20:17:36 -!- mbrezu` [~user@178.156.179.144] has left #lisp 20:18:34 bah 20:18:51 now bknr makes me doubt my entire setup... clos instead of lists 20:19:57 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@149.43.190.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:22:32 jdz [~jdz@host31-104-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:22:56 -!- Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:23:30 k_89 [~k@122.161.168.114] has joined #lisp 20:23:50 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:24:41 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:25:11 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 20:25:21 agumonkey [agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:14 *splittist* redisovers AND in LOOP, writes near-paren-free code... 20:26:37 hi... i am a web dev, i like learning new languages, i know java,python,php,javascript(the advanced stuff) and a bit of ruby,c++,c# 20:26:47 *Xach* just needs one more vote for 50 at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2490257 20:26:51 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has joined #lisp 20:27:25 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:27:34 billitch [~billitch@78.250.216.202] has joined #lisp 20:27:35 got interested in lisp after learning about its origins in a programming languages book, can you guys suggest some books to learn lisp 20:27:38 Xach: soon...ish! 20:27:41 Xach: there ya go 20:27:52 Xach: you're at 50! 20:28:34 minion: tell k_89 about pcl 20:28:39 lichtblau: phew 20:28:42 slyrus: not certain; do you mean with-xml-output? 20:28:46 *dlowe* nudges minion with his foot. 20:28:50 lichtblau: you are really catching up 20:29:02 k_89: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 20:29:07 k_89: Practical Common Lisp by Gigamonkey. 20:29:27 k_89 : how skilled are you in general programming ? 20:29:49 rme: I know it exists and know some of the names and had some discussions on why matlisp is the way it is. 20:29:50 i would say better than average 20:29:56 agumonkey, 20:29:58 aight 20:30:36 agumonkey: I don't see how that matters? 20:30:44 i would have said 'land of lisp' but it seems a little too simple mayb 20:30:48 was about to ask how that matters 20:30:48 maybe* 20:31:03 kai____ [~kai@e177090079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:03 Casting SPELs! 20:31:06 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:31:10 -!- kai____ is now known as wetnosed 20:31:12 even though i like the book 20:31:30 rtoym: We have a client who's interested in it (or something like it). It seems a bit raw, though, and I'm trying to decide if I should get matlisp running in ccl instead of or in addition to it. 20:31:36 *BrianRice* brew-upgrades sbcl and tries quicklisp 20:31:45 agumonkey, i can code various trees and graphs in any language, in a few days, if thats what you meant 20:31:55 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:32:29 -!- Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-145-219-162.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:32:59 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 20:33:04 rme: I've never used lisp-matrix. I can help with getting matlisp running on ccl, though. Something I have wanted to do but haven't done yet due to lack of familiarity with ccl internals. 20:33:27 btw, thnx dlowe, naryl agumonkey 20:33:46 xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 20:33:51 k_89: I think you'll like PCL, it's gared towards peopl who generally know how to program, and is, in fact, about practical uses 20:34:18 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:34:25 k_89 : aight then, if you like geometry too, try On Lisp - from Paul Graham, the chapter about nurbs curves is one of the nicest example of lisp macros I've seen, priceless 20:34:29 just don't get into myths, even the good ones... they will show the truth when you'll get to the code that actually neds it :) 20:35:09 also, for some good info about symbolic manipulation with CONSes etc., I recommend Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation (google it, since minion is apparently dead) 20:35:24 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 20:35:31 p_l|backup, will check it out, agumonkey , i am more interested in making things which i can show off to common folks 20:35:36 :P 20:35:59 well fast 3d nurbs curves could make quite an impression on people :D 20:36:07 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 20:36:40 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:37:05 -!- novaburst [~novaburst@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:38:04 rtoym: I think I will try to get matlisp running on ccl. I'll send you private mail at some point. 20:38:35 k_89: well, you can't really understand those impressive parts without learning the language, though the relational database implemented under 2k lines in PCL is simple enough :D 20:39:03 k_89: Skim this one too: http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html It has some nice pictures. :) 20:39:10 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:39:17 +1 for lisperati, fun ride 20:39:26 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-193-133.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:39:42 thnx guys, you guys 20:39:47 are pretty welcoming 20:39:55 bsod1_ [~sinan@88.242.139.175] has joined #lisp 20:39:56 (welcoming in quotes) 20:40:09 (defmethod encode-object ((object transaction) stream) (%write-tag #\T stream) ... 20:40:20 it's comp.lang.lisp that is unwelcoming 20:40:21 -!- waaaaargh [~Johannes@p57ADD764.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:40:23 what exactly is % doing there? or is it just part of the name? 20:40:28 (and full of flames) 20:40:34 alama [~alama@ip4dab5c2d.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 20:40:42 Landr: it is 20:40:46 hmm 20:41:06 great, now i have to go hunt for the definition 20:41:07 Landr: it's just a convention, like *earmuffs*, for symbols belonging to internals of the code that shouldn't be called otherwise. But from language pov,it's just a part ofthe name 20:41:18 ahh, that explains 20:41:23 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e177090079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:33 Landr: too bad it's so easy, with M-. and all 20:41:40 and what means % ? 20:41:41 i'm reading the source on git 20:42:13 wetnosed [~kai@e179011144.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:14 % means zero divided by zero, which is bad and you shouldn't do it 20:42:33 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:42:33 try and stop me! 20:42:35 the same as |Hello World!|, or ' 20:42:36 you're too conventional 20:42:55 lisp has unicode support in its source code? 20:42:57 (yes, I actually tested using kanji for symbol names. Fuuuun) 20:43:01 Landr: some 20:43:07 Depends on implementation 20:43:08 lisp doesn't care about character encoding 20:43:08 in your face, go! 20:43:18 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:43:35 Landr: basically, if your implementation has native Unicode support in strings, then it has unicode symbol names (usually) 20:43:46 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:43 ... though using unicode, or simply non-english symbol names, might be a bad style for libraris :) 20:44:52 rme: Cool. I'll be looking for it. Gotta run now. 20:45:12 (well, unless it's unicode *symbol glyphs*, not stuff like hebrew, kanji, tamil, etc.) 20:46:08 in CL, you can write  n  (1 2 3 4 5): (evenp n) 20:46:14 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 20:46:20 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 20:46:38 rumina [~rumina@88-148-219-26.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:46:48 *Landr* wonders... 20:46:48 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.216.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:54 shouldn't that require a reader macro? :) 20:47:14 (or an enclosing macro ) 20:47:15 some nice definitions: https://gist.github.com/767289 20:47:24 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:47:53 (math!  n  (1 2 3 4 5) -> evenp) ;Definitely possible 20:48:06 how cute 20:48:13 antoni [~user@85.53.13.39] has joined #lisp 20:48:21 stassats: the (constantly) expansions pretty much rule out ( 1 2), right? 20:48:25 (defmacro  (&rest r) `(lambda ,r)) 20:48:27 hahahahahaaa! 20:48:31 awesome 20:48:32 oh, no, wait! 20:48:37 got it. 20:48:39 Landr: I prefer to use lambda-mode in emacs :) 20:48:59 but i have no lambda on my keyboard... though I guess I could fidget with the layout even more 20:49:03 stassats: pretty neat (-: 20:49:08 *Landr* already mapped ( ) to [ ] 20:49:34 disclaimer: i don't use that actually 20:50:06 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-78-12-83-62.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 20:50:10 Landr: lambda-mode *visually* replaces all occurences of lambda as a symbol in source to  20:50:15 oh 20:50:17 well that's cheating =P 20:51:10 Landr: it also means your code remains usable for non-unicode lisps and people without apropriate fonts and/or keyboard mappings :) 20:51:25 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:51:27  n  (1 2 3 4 5): ¬ (evenp n) would be a better example 20:52:54 -!- lanthan [~ze@ip-90-186-111-81.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:53:44 *agumonkey* hop on fortress 20:54:10 Landr: an earlier example of doing such things is this: (defrule rule-1 constraints... => ) 20:54:33 -!- snearch_ [~snearch@f053004004.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:55:14 (I actually had to code that) 20:55:18 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:16 you can do pretty impressive stuff with reader and macros :) 20:57:30 (though sometimes it pays to have a custom reader) 20:57:36 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:55 -!- k_89 [~k@122.161.168.114] has left #lisp 20:57:56 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 20:58:08 to do even more crazy stuff 20:58:24 zirpu [~zirpu@li66-175.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:34 BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-235-29.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 20:58:56 yeah 20:58:59 -!- zirpu [~zirpu@li66-175.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 20:59:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-175.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:28 Landr: also, one thing I noticed - CL can be delightfully low-level, especially if your implementation has a nice LAP system 20:59:53 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:06 oh, LAP still exists? 21:00:10 ... 21:00:11 -!- Bike1 is now known as Bike 21:00:12 allegro uses it 21:00:14 lap? 21:00:24 It was in the 1.5 manual... 21:01:32 or the VOP that would be the lowest level possible :) 21:02:16 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181063174.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:02:19 Landr: lisp assembly program 21:02:55 Bike: it's a common term used for many implementation's assembler. Since many of them need a way to emit assembly anyway, they have it as part of the compiler 21:03:14 ah. I'm only used to x86 from sbcl. 21:03:15 though personally I think CCL's is nicer to use than SBCL's, but I haven't had much experience 21:03:48 Corman boasted a well-integrated LAP mechanism including inline assembly, afaik 21:04:07 -!- alama [~alama@ip4dab5c2d.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Quit: alama] 21:04:20 I sometimes (read rarely) use inline assembly in ECL 21:04:44 true used Corman's as well 21:07:11 LAP is very useful if you want to do some crazy multicore stuff and your implementation doesn't have the correct tools, or for using various instructions that don't have intrinsics so far etc. 21:07:41 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-197-232-103.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:07:46 -!- BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-235-29.csuohio.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:46 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 21:08:46 is lap mentioned in the standard ? 21:08:56 no 21:09:58 -!- euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-umsexgavmqarlyxb] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:54 agumonkey: it can't really fit,can it? 21:11:27 euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mrjmuyochxyakfbz] has joined #lisp 21:12:38 even the C standard, while it has the asm keyword (afaik), doesn't specify the syntax 21:14:08 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:14:27 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@63.107.91.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:14:35 p_l|backup: I don't think there is a comprehensive asm standard anywhere. people refer to the intel manuals but that's hardly a standard 21:14:37 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-234-152-183.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:47 -!- varjag [~eugene@62.249.169.4] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:15:22 CLHS isn't a standard either, so what? 21:15:26 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-62.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:15:27 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 21:15:45 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:15:54 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 21:16:07 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-5.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:16:11 BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-235-29.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 21:16:21 -!- xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:16:24 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-008-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:15 -!- BountyX is now known as int 21:17:18 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:27 -!- int is now known as double 21:18:30 stassats: technically, CLHS is a hyperspec copy of ANSI standard with annotations 21:18:50 while it's not ANSI-endorsed, it's from the same source files that the ANSI standard was printed 21:19:08 did you check that it's verbatim? 21:19:39 stassats: I suspect there might be editing over time, but I haven't had a chance to compare with original to check for verbatim 21:19:53 I prefered to trust the people involved in making Hyperspec 21:20:22 enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 21:20:29 so, do you trust the people involved in making of the intel manuals? 21:20:30 <[df]> would this be a bad time to point out that the clhs page for prog2 appears to be wrong? 21:20:44 [df]: yes 21:20:58 Hello ... is it possible to configure the Slime debugger to always display the full backtrace (rather than --more--)? 21:21:06 stassats: not really (trust intel) 21:21:30 «yielding as its only value the primary value yielded by first-form» oooh. 21:21:33 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 21:21:42 francogrex: who would you trust then? 21:21:51 stassats: I might trust them to tryto write the manuals properly. I wouldn't trust intel to not sabotage my AMD-based computer 21:22:05 I like standards with validation and QC tests 21:22:45 i like unicorns and rainbows 21:22:59 *p_l|backup* once found that quite a lot of AMD-based laptops had incorrectly-coded ACPI tables... in a way that looked waaaay to much like authors were paid by competition 21:23:09 they can't garantee you good quality products 21:23:53 alama [~alama@ip4dab5c2d.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 21:24:03 neither do validation and QC tests 21:24:30 -!- pigdude [~tallen@gateway1.atlantic-media.us] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:24:33 <[df]> what can? open standards and fair competition perhaps 21:26:37 [df]: the impossible chance where people pay for quality instead of quantity? 21:26:46 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:27:23 management that understands more than just traditional management? 21:29:42 standards and compliance give good quality and coherence, imagine someone following a validated standard as a procedure versus some nutter improvising messily as he goes along... order and discipline = power 21:29:46 -!- bsod1_ [~sinan@88.242.139.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:54 francogrex: not necessarily 21:30:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:30:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 21:30:17 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:30:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-5.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:31:10 needs genius as well 21:31:55 "in theory" 21:34:44 -!- enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has left #lisp 21:35:09 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:40 well anyway, I am still learning even after > 2 years... need a new challenge now. 21:39:53 francogrex: have you tackled MOP yet? 21:40:17 -!- jdz [~jdz@host31-104-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:40:20 *ehu* started to grok mop way past 2 years of lisping 21:40:23 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:40:27 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 21:40:47 ehu: yeah, but it gives a wonderful target to mess with. Well, this, and before that, advanced CLOS usage 21:40:56 or just looking at how it was implemented 21:41:32 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:41:33 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-12-181.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:25 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 21:42:35 my new project: http://francoatgrex.tripod.com I want to code than in cl tomorrow 21:42:38 <[df]> just looked up how long I'd been lisping - by funny coincidence the first public record of my lisp usage was 2 years ago today 21:43:27 [df]: my first dabbing started in 2008 I think, but the effort started not too long ago 21:44:04 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 21:45:09 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:45:17 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:45:40 there was no calendars invented when i started to use lisp 21:46:50 stassats: how lucky you are! 21:47:13 hmmm... First meeting with Lisp was quite long time ago for m 21:47:22 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@69.166.35.237] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:22 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:48:23 depends whether you want first hearing of the language (... over 10 years ago, I think), first seeing some code (... >6y ago?), actually learning CL (with PCL!, ~4y ago) :) 21:48:29 I'm 22 :) 21:48:59 hehe. 21:49:14 -!- Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:49:40 the oldest mention was AutoLISP 21:49:56 so you're slightly younger than CL 21:50:03 My first encounter was in 2001. Not long after I started learning it from an experienced lisper. so, I guess my lisp-age is little over 10. 21:50:14 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 21:50:46 lisp age is measured by the greyness of your beard 21:50:58 in that case, I'm 0. 21:51:14 *ehu* doesn't grow a beard yet, even though he's 36 now 21:51:36 *JuanDaugherty* hopes there's at least 1 female present. 21:51:40 ... I just shaved mine few days ago 21:51:45 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:47 JuanDaugherty: not only you 21:51:59 <[df]> JuanDaugherty: I often hope that, and am often disappointed 21:52:00 well I don't know if i'm using Lisp for the proper purpose, all i do is algorithmic (mathematics) coding 21:52:37 francogrex: ... well, that's all right with Maclisp tradition... :P 21:53:00 yeah. some women are good lispers, keene was a a female 21:53:03 ehu, how long was cl.net offline? 21:53:28 the purpose of cl is to use it for everything 21:53:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-170-5.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:52 Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 21:53:58 p_l|backup: would like to do more but my work is mostly that, mathemetical algos. maybe I should just stick with C 21:54:16 billitch [~billitch@78.250.216.202] has joined #lisp 21:54:18 <[df]> C sounds like a terrible language for maths 21:54:33 C sounds like a terrible language for anything. 21:54:39 <[df]> fair point 21:54:49 JuanDaugherty: females don't have the ability do grow beards, that's why they don't succeed at Lisp 21:55:01 <[df]> lol (actually) 21:55:07 stassats: I like very much using CL for math, but what are the % of lispers coding algorithms in maths? 21:55:11 francogrex: actually, Lisp is IMHO a good choice. CL, Scheme, or Haskell 21:55:35 francogrex: does that matter? 21:55:39 well, there's also CaML and derivatives 21:55:59 not much, just curiosity. I hope i'm not the only one 21:56:12 Capricious Markup Language 21:56:25 <[df]> my brief study of ocaml led me to conclude that if you're inclined that way, haskell is the way to go 21:56:30 francogrex: math-heavy, bleeding edge stuff seems to use Scheme, Haskell, or OCaml quite often, and I think CL has a fair chance as well 21:56:53 ocaml's a lot more stable than haskell 21:57:01 -!- double [~erhan@csu-137-148-235-29.csuohio.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:09 oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.211.23] has joined #lisp 21:57:11 "whatever you know best" usually works great 21:57:18 <[df]> stable as in unchanging? 21:57:34 that and other associations 21:57:46 clsmith [~cls@ambrose.lubutu.com] has joined #lisp 21:58:04 just like Lisp! 21:58:16 ocaml is eager 21:58:19 JuanDaugherty: yeah, but Haskell community works hard to be able to change things swiftly 21:58:28 <[df]> I certainly have noticed this sense in the haskell world of 'you don't want to do IO that way, that's old hat - use this new way we invented last week that you can read a paper on here' 21:58:31 so far they managed to do that 21:58:52 [df]: Is it per chance related to BitStrings or however it was called? :) 21:59:01 yes and they have tightened up their act somewhat lately with Haskel Platform and ghc 7 21:59:08 StringFusionIOChannel 21:59:08 let's not discuss haskell fads here 21:59:09 (cause I don't think IO monad got replaced) 21:59:12 <[df]> p_l|backup: Iteratees 21:59:23 heh 21:59:24 dayum, almost 21:59:33 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:48 well, the nice thing is, they work really hard on making sure the community can survive such high turnaround 22:00:03 *JuanDaugherty* wouldn't have admitted he was 22 if he was. 22:00:08 <[df]> but I found ocaml too restrictive, whereas haskell people at least seem to be looking for less painful ways to work with strict typing 22:00:31 JuanDaugherty: so, are you? 22:00:40 hell no 22:00:45 *[df]* wishes he was 22 22:00:53 [df]: Well, Haskell guys seem to enjoy making the type system do their work for them... 22:01:07 that's the meaning of life 22:01:25 <[df]> getting the computer to do your work for you is a laudable goal 22:02:33 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@109.67.211.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:03:35 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:03:36 Haskell is basically Cobol or Java or what have you for Academics or the academically gobsmacked, which "everybody" is to some extent 22:04:00 really, #haskell is some other way 22:04:17 aerique ? 22:04:38 you can join and see how they react to your witticisms 22:04:46 <[df]> haskell fascinates me as an intellectual exercise, but I have had limited success doing anything practical with it so far 22:04:51 I can't think of another lang with as much promise to deliver on mimimizing coding though 22:05:15 tommrrow then you'll see the most beautiful CL code for the model I showed, promise or my name is not franco 22:05:20 <[df]> but then maybe some people have had a similar experience with lisp 22:05:59 i found IO in haskell too restrictive. which is why i'm learning lisp. it's neat for programs which involve absolutely no IO 22:06:00 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@80.213.121.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:06:08 i earned money with Lisp only after 5 years of learning 22:06:12 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:06:22 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:39 you only take lisp work? 22:06:52 so, you need to spend some time before it becomes practical 22:07:27 -!- joe999 [~root@cpe-24-93-172-250.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:43 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-78-12-83-62.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Quit] 22:07:46 JuanDaugherty: followed someone's advice in here on how to get a job with Lisp 22:07:47 clsmith: ever since they added IO Monad, it stopped being so hard... but imagine having your function defined as something that takes past and produces future... or the other way around. 22:07:57 -!- Yuuhi [benni@84.131.215.98] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:08:07 <[df]> by 'practical' I didn't mean making money, just doing useful stuff for oneself 22:08:11 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@81.193.7.145] has joined #lisp 22:09:54 stassats, ah 22:10:06 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.253.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:10:36 stassats: oh? can you share? 22:10:50 -!- tic [~tic@c83-249-193-119.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:11:00 *p_l|backup* is recently pondering stopping worrying about fixing his studies, and just try to grab a job 22:11:00 tic [~tic@c83-249-193-119.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:11:07 streamtech looks interesting 22:11:23 something like "refuse to work in any language but lisp, and you'll be forced to find a lisp job" 22:11:26 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.253.23] has joined #lisp 22:11:37 hahaha 22:11:40 p_l|backup: it was good enough for marijn, I think (: 22:11:41 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:11:52 stassats: was that drewc? 22:12:02 i don't remember! 22:12:07 p_l|backup: you're in the NL, then? 22:12:14 *sykopomp* remembers seeing that advice. 22:12:44 *JuanDaugherty* would not want to be subject to buyers in any lang subculture. 22:13:27 JuanDaugherty: actually, drew is allowed to make his own choices. He just chooses lisp... 22:13:32 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 22:13:52 uh ... 22:13:57 -!- splittist [~splittist@AMontsouris-553-1-87-245.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:13:59 hit and run 22:15:48 -!- Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:16:02 *[df]* is reminded of a tilton quote I can't find the source for right now: 'when they see us under a lean-to hunched over our laptops to shield them from the rain laughing our asses off as we write great code between bong hits.... what was the question?' 22:16:08 question: i've used lisp a little, but besides basically writing code i would in any other functional language, i've not really noticed anything special besides a lot of parens. are there any programming puzzles on the interweb designed to demonstrate the usefulness of macros etc? 22:17:29 lisp is not a functional language 22:17:38 clsmith: I don't think a puzzle will really make things click. It's something you notice over time, as you see how a lot of the different parts can be used together. A nice thing in CL is to a degree you can ignore the parts you don't understand, so you can get a lot done without actually being forced to try new parts that might do things you don't yet appreciate. 22:17:55 stassats: sure it is. it's impure, but eh. 22:18:08 Like the condition system, or the package system, or CLOS 22:18:40 clsmith: it's general purpose language without any agendas 22:18:41 *p_l|backup* isn't in NL, but is clear to work there with minimal fuss 22:19:04 Xach: i see. so it's more a case of just forcing myself to do any of my standard problems in lisp. hm, i'm not sure about CL, the loop syntax is weird and scares me 22:19:20 clsmith: Get over it. 22:19:35 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@p5B1034A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ...] 22:19:37 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.70.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:41 i use format to scare children 22:19:44 clsmith: But I don't think forcing yourself is a great idea. Read a lot of lisp code. 22:20:01 clsmith: you don't need to use LOOP. Also, it reads better when you use keywords, like (loop :for i :in :foo :collect (car i)) 22:20:09 no!! 22:20:13 clsmith: cl-ppcre in particular touches a lot of different parts of CL as it does a pretty interesting job well. 22:20:23 keywords in loop are killing me 22:20:28 stassats: why? 22:20:35 because they're so ugly! 22:20:38 i've read a lot of scheme, but .. i discovered early on it doesn't really .. have any useful functions 22:20:59 clsmith: I don't think you'll get much out of CL then, either. 22:21:26 lisp-addict is in the palm app catalog :) 22:21:52 madnificent: it's an app to cure smugness? 22:21:53 clsmith: Scheme was a minimalistic dialect that got roped into teaching. It shows. 22:21:55 Xach: how come? 22:22:01 Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:25 stassats: it's a web app which allows you to execute lisp code (from ericbb's lisp) in a webos smartphone :) 22:22:30 IMHO you'll get a lot, just treat it as any other language, and go through PCL (and possibly Gentle) 22:22:37 clsmith: You dismiss things you don't seem to understand as frightening or useless. 22:22:58 stassats: it's free too :) 22:24:05 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@91-114-187-173.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 22:24:11 Xach: haha. what i mean is, scheme is very small and doesn't really have a standard library to speak of. so it's difficult to know where to start, i guess. 22:24:12 dismissing some things is a good way to get something actually done 22:24:24 clsmith: well, CL is the opposite 22:24:26 that's why i dismiss anything, except CL 22:24:35 for its time, CL had quite full standard library 22:25:08 Demosthenes [~demo@12.181.218.2] has joined #lisp 22:25:44 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 22:25:51 -!- jlf [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/jlf] has left #lisp 22:28:03 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 22:28:25 okay, well i guess i'll just have to force myself to use it and see if it grows on me i guess. i may just be doing the classic "eww parens" response 22:28:49 Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 22:29:30 clsmith, what are you forcing onto yourself again, CL or scheme? 22:29:35 clsmith: I'd just go through PCL, except remembering to use Quicklisp. Suddenly, it will be quite easy :) 22:29:51 Good morning everyone! 22:29:54 back when I started, I was rather confused thanks to asdf-install and Gentoo 22:29:58 beach: morning 22:30:07 'evening beach 22:30:33 i'm not sure yet. scheme sort of fits better in my head, but cl seems like it would be more useful in the long term 22:30:51 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:58 i think i bought pcl a few years ago but i don't know where i put it :/ 22:31:22 it's on the web, too (: 22:31:37 in fact, I prefer the web version because you can copy&paste from it, and try stuff 22:31:38 -!- Munksgaard [~Munksgaar@1807ds2-noe.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:31:43 also, grep. 22:31:53 clsmith: well, you're in #lisp now so you might as well take CL 22:31:56 ah, okay. :) i'll work my way through it, then 22:32:31 clsmith: Well, I recommend you go through PCL, and see if it fits you. If not, try something with Scheme. Personally, I find CL more enjoyable, because I can switch between CCL, SBCL, ACL and LW by simply changing the startup :) 22:32:47 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:38 ok, i'll give that a try. thanks all :) 22:34:17 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 22:34:17 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:34 clsmith: just grab the most appropriate lisp for your platform and mix in Quicklisp, Slime and Emacs :) 22:35:11 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:35:54 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.253.23] has quit [Quit: Zzz] 22:37:29 paredit is nice to have as well 22:37:38 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 22:39:02 hi, I'm here to turn in my lisper card. I was doing "(count-if (lambda (x) (eq y x)) l)" ;[ 22:39:45 Tordek: ? 22:39:49 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-228-139.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:56 (count y l), beach 22:40:09 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:16 Tordek: haha, it happens 22:40:23 Tordek: I see, but you need at least :test #'eq. 22:41:38 Also, as antifuchs points out, not everyone is stassats. 22:41:40 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-78-59.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:41:55 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:01 what's count's default :test? 22:42:03 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:42:13 #'eql as usual. 22:42:20 ah 22:42:28 yeah, i would've used something more ridiculously looking 22:42:29 antoni` [~user@39.pool85-53-13.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:42:52 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-232-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:06 stassats: But you often find solutions that others don't even think of. 22:44:23 -!- alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:44:51 -!- antoni` [~user@39.pool85-53-13.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:40 -!- antoni [~user@85.53.13.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:45:57 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@69.70.212.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:58 alfa_y_omega_ [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #lisp 22:46:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:47:35 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-228-139.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:47:42 is there a native count-duplicates function of some kind? I'm doing (mapcar (lambda (x) (count x l)) (remove-duplicates l)) 22:47:57 no 22:48:36 -!- Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:48:42 are you sure that's what you're doing? 22:50:00 (defun groups (l) 22:50:00 (let ((uniques (remove-duplicates l))) 22:50:00 (mapcar (lambda (x) (count x l)) 22:50:00 uniques))) 22:50:13 when executing a opengl application it involves running in a loop this ties up the REPL, I remember reading something about the possibility of using swank to overcome this 22:50:24 the let is a holdover from when I was using loop, which I guess is now unnecessary 22:50:36 (- (length list) (length (remove-duplicates list))) ? 22:50:42 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:10 stassats: thing is, the list may contain "4 3 3 2 1", and I want "1 2 1 1"(order is irrelevant) 22:51:47 i see 22:54:00 I could settle for a function that returned, say, ((4 . 1) (2 . 2) (2 . 1) (1 . 1)) and then mapcar #'cdr over it, if there were such a thing 22:54:53 are you using only numbers? 22:55:32 yes, in the 2-14 range 22:56:47 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 22:58:07 is the resulting order relevant? 22:58:09 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:09 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:19 lanthan [~ze@p54B7C1A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:26 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:58:26 Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 22:58:46 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 22:59:01 stassats: nope 22:59:23 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7C1A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:59:59 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-71-146-156-81.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:16 lanthan [~ze@p54B7C1A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:17 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-232-62.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:02 then use a hash-table 23:01:25 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-218-198.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:11 stassats: I believe I tried that and got much slower, but I've since speeded things up a bit, so I'll ssee 23:02:35 ok I found it, http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/wiki/PortableInteractiveDevelopment 23:02:50 Tordek: how long are the lists? 23:03:16 it seems that swank::handle-requests only gets called with *communication-style* is not :spawn, which mine seems to be 23:03:28 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:34 what other style would be appropriate? 23:04:41 then your lisp isn't single-threaded 23:04:47 what's the problem then? 23:05:08 cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-7-231.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:39 -!- Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:06:05 -!- Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:06:16 stassats, nope 23:06:28 actually nil seems to be appropriate for this 23:06:48 no, nil is seriously fucked up 23:06:54 hehe 23:07:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07:18 -!- silenius [~silenus@p549474D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:07:21 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-7-231.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:07:48 but you didn't answer my question, if your lisp has threads and you use :spawn comm style, you don't need the bit on that page 23:08:42 ah, ok 23:08:57 well yes at the moment it is SBCL on linux so threads are a go 23:09:12 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.135] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:09:36 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:09:42 though I will tuck this away as I may require windows later 23:09:44 so, what prompted you into considering to use the snippet from that page? something isn't satisfactory about slime interaction with lispbuilder? 23:09:57 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 23:10:04 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:10:20 stassats: I think it's several short lists; I'll be back later 23:10:38 Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 23:11:29 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:11:41 stassats, I am losing the REPL when I run my app, it's not lispbuilder though, just a simple cl-opengl app using GLOP for window creation 23:12:01 have you considered starting your app in another thread? 23:12:26 I am now if that counts 23:13:42 but will it wont output to the REPL then, correct? 23:14:10 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 23:14:12 it will if you let it to 23:14:33 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:14:35 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:30 yep, this should do ok, cheers stassats 23:20:31 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:20:39 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:20:40 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has joined #lisp 23:22:21 benny` [~benny@i577A875B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:22:53 -!- benny [~benny@i577A11D2.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:23:02 -!- benny` is now known as benny 23:24:23 -!- Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has left #lisp 23:25:02 |3b|, ping 23:25:12 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 23:26:59 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 23:27:29 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:44 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 23:30:08 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:30:51 Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 23:31:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:33:17 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:34:00 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.125] has joined #lisp 23:34:33 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:41 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:26 xan_ [~xan@adsl-63-204-27-202.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:36 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has joined #lisp 23:35:41 fusss [~chatzilla@58.171.106.167] has joined #lisp 23:35:50 greetings #Lisp! 23:36:27 hi fusss! 23:36:28 hello fusss 23:36:38 greetings fusss 23:36:46 heya all :-) 23:37:46 so what's the least painful way for ssl via CL? 23:38:02 fusss: SSL proxy 23:38:02 cl+ssl? 23:38:08 cl+ssl is standard, but I just saw a native CL implementation 23:38:21 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:29 fusss: personally, I think SSL proxy is best solution not only for CL :-) 23:38:41 ... especially when you are getting more traffic 23:38:54 (well, reverse proxy) 23:39:52 had one of those at a job once - handled external-facing SSL for corporation websites 23:39:55 p_l|backup: since you're also an android guy; we're just trying to do some batch-synching from android point-of-sale devices to a backoffice app 23:40:16 p_l|backup: android client talking to hunchentoot-fronted backend 23:41:13 Triplefault [~Mouse@adsl-145-219-162.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:15 p_l|backup: we can use regular java libs on the client. Server needs to speak ssl too. Was thinking a proxy might be a little messy? no? 23:42:20 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:42:26 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:03 fusss: well, reverse proxy might be already good thing for hunchentoot (easy to cluster if needed, and for POS high-availability might warrant it), so then adding SSL on the proxy and ensuring safety between proxy and hunchentoots should work 23:43:20 -!- Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:44:38 cool, thanks for your time :-) 23:44:41 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:44:43 np. 23:44:56 mind telling me where you find those cool things to make for money? :P 23:45:38 (pondering suspending studies, mental health would appreciate change of environment and a free start) 23:45:43 Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 23:45:53 s/free/new/ 23:46:30 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:47:07 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47:14 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:47:15 p_l|backup: move to a mining town in Australia, and be the only programmer in town. Android + Lisp, also sharepoint, frontpage and Excel. Mixed bag. 23:47:41 haha 23:48:07 unfortunately I have tendency to be in places that have more than one programmer 23:48:07 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 23:48:52 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:49:38 Sydney is like that. Half the people on the train are reading proggit :-| just cliched "hacker" types, wearing current-meme tshirts 23:50:17 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.152.125] has joined #lisp 23:50:18 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-242.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:50:22 heh 23:50:38 ok, back to work. later 23:50:38 Mococa [~Mococa@189.59.213.188] has joined #lisp 23:50:41 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@58.171.106.167] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756]] 23:50:45 I don't have anything against cliched meme shirts, though I'd rather have my z/OS shirt :D 23:52:07 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-89-178.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:28 -!- Gmind [~morphism@113.190.161.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:54:31 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:06 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]