00:00:39 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-35-115.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:00:43 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-35-115.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:54 gglitch [~user@216.80.93.163] has joined #lisp 00:08:21 -!- gglitch [~user@216.80.93.163] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:28 gglitch [~user@216-80-93-163.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:07 -!- gglitch [~user@216-80-93-163.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:13 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-104-119.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:13:22 phil [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:32 gglitch [~user@216-80-93-163.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:41 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:19:46 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-35-115.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:20:14 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-35-115.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:22:37 -!- gglitch [~user@216-80-93-163.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:55 gglitch [~user@216-80-93-163.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:01 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:57 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-2.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:01 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 00:29:41 linusp [~flyme@2001:250:4000:8148:2e0:4cff:fe03:77bb] has joined #lisp 00:30:21 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:31:09 -!- ASau` [~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:32:10 -!- linusp [~flyme@2001:250:4000:8148:2e0:4cff:fe03:77bb] has left #lisp 00:32:25 paul0 [~user@187.112.68.205] has joined #lisp 00:34:23 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:34:35 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:35:57 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:55 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@82.143.220.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:37:59 Hi guys, can somebody please tell me why this macro doesn't work as expected (i. e. it does not generate the classes as expected): http://paste.lisp.org/display/121576 - I'm new to CL, sorry. 00:39:03 glidesurfer: the macro has to return the form you want to have EVALed. 00:39:11 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 00:39:16 glidesurfer: Your macro returns nothing. 00:39:43 macroexpand-1 told me that but I don't/didn't know why. 00:40:39 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 00:40:39 Because the do part of the loop form just executes the quote. You'd want appending instead of do, I think, and wrap it in a progn? 00:40:40 so `(defclass ,n (tag) ((name :initform ',n))) doesn't work at this point? 00:40:59 glidesurfer: What does ` do? 00:41:20 glidesurfer: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121576#1 00:41:46 glidesurfer: You don't see to understand what a macro is, take some time to think about it 00:42:02 *seem 00:42:36 I thought I did... 00:43:43 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@188-23-234-169.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:44:55 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-178-003-007-218.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:08 -!- paul0 [~user@187.112.68.205] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@adsl-76-254-68-171.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:46:40 sellout: Your version works, by the way. 00:47:00 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:43 hi. it seems Google Books no longer allows download of PDF even for a public-domain work? http://books.google.com/books?id=OOF348zKgVoC i used to download PDFs and print them from google books, but i cant seem to get the file for this.... i figure someone here might know 00:48:05 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-104-119.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 00:48:29 dto: Better to ask #haskell, I'm sure. 00:48:31 dto: They don't use Lisp at Google ;) 00:48:37 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:48:44 hello Xach 00:48:51 glidesurfer: Ok, any idea what mine does that yours doesn't? 00:49:50 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:42 sellout: I don't know what that ",@" does... 00:50:55 -!- gigamonkey [~user@99.17.204.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:51:02 -!- chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:51:15 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.132] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:51:27 hsrt [maln@78-0-225-92.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 00:51:45 glidesurfer: It's mostly the same as ",", except splices the resulting list in. But just think of it as "," for now. 00:51:59 glidesurfer: What does your loop form return? 00:52:22 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@188-23-234-169.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 00:52:52 oh, obviously nothing... 00:53:31 ah, I think I got it know. "collecting"... 00:53:53 -!- beelike [~maln@78-1-154-254.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:55:59 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:57:39 I found this definition for the comma-at operator "evaluate prefixed form at macroexpand time and remove outermost level of parentheses" <-- "outermost level of parentheses" is the "loop" in this case, isn't it? 00:59:11 glidesurfer: No, it runs the loop first. 00:59:43 So you get ((defclass ) (defclass ) (defclass )), then it removes that outer set of parens. 00:59:51 ah 00:59:54 ok 01:00:17 glidesurfer: And then you wrap it all in a progn, and return the whole thing. 01:03:30 But wait... ,@ removes the outer set of parentheses... then we get (defclass ...) (defclass...) - and progn returns the last one only? 01:03:45 Yes, but all the defclass forms will be executed. 01:04:24 Of cause. Well, thank you. 01:04:53 *course 01:06:11 glidesurfer, you return a list that looks like (progn (defclass ) (defclass ) ) which gets evaled later. So it doesn't matter which defclass result progn returns, so long as the macro returns a proper lisp form. 01:07:11 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-faxfaciuxbvfaezd] has joined #lisp 01:11:53 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-210-58-83.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 01:13:37 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@188-23-234-169.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 01:15:08 cowhm [~cowhm@40.120.124.24.cm.sunflower.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:30 linusp [~flyme@2001:250:4000:8148:2e0:4cff:fe03:77bb] has joined #lisp 01:16:38 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@188-23-234-169.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Client Quit] 01:16:45 -!- linusp [~flyme@2001:250:4000:8148:2e0:4cff:fe03:77bb] has left #lisp 01:17:04 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:18:13 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:20:12 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:20:20 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:58 Thank you all! Time to get some sleep now... gn8 01:24:00 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:25:18 -!- cowhm [~cowhm@40.120.124.24.cm.sunflower.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:27:19 -!- phil [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:27:46 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:28:56 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:05 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:30:44 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 01:30:44 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 01:30:44 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 01:31:58 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-178-003-007-218.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:41 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@46.205.106.169.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:34:55 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-231-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:55 -!- beach [~user@116.118.0.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:39:02 benny` [~benny@i577A83CD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 01:39:14 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 01:39:43 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8496.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:40:02 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:19 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:41:29 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:45 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:20 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:50:19 TheRealLongshot_ [~longshot@180.184.25.64] has joined #lisp 01:53:39 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:53:39 -!- TheRealLongshot_ is now known as TheRealLongshot 01:54:55 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:55:59 mephisto [~mephisto@airmarshal-v191-225-78.airyork.yorku.ca] has joined #lisp 02:02:35 -!- benny` is now known as benny 02:03:02 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.177] has quit [Quit: Offline] 02:03:04 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:05:32 -!- mephisto [~mephisto@airmarshal-v191-225-78.airyork.yorku.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09:43 -!- splittist [~splittist@AMontsouris-553-1-20-3.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:10:12 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:10:29 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:10:31 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:10:47 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:14:31 -!- icbh [~icbh@ntszok076238.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:18:45 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:21:22 -!- Vutral [j18SCqpswu@vutral.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:21:43 -!- Vutral_ [~ss@2a01:198:35a::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:22:31 -!- gglitch [~user@216-80-93-163.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:23:42 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:23:53 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:52 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 02:31:21 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 02:40:45 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 02:41:50 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 02:51:24 -!- sakekasi [~sakekasi@99-28-149-24.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:52:56 wuj [~wuj@207.172.162.191] has joined #lisp 02:53:35 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:59 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-231-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:58 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:55:39 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 02:58:43 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 02:59:22 chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 03:01:59 makks [~max@p5DE8E6C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:20 -!- makks_ [~max@p5DE8EF98.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:03:24 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-2.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 03:06:50 -!- wuj [~wuj@207.172.162.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:07:55 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-35-115.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08:24 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-35-115.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:38 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-2.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:46 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 03:28:03 xan_ [~xan@75.16.26.133] has joined #lisp 03:38:36 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-186-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:39:46 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:39:59 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has joined #lisp 03:40:28 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 03:42:23 -!- chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:43:28 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:52:40 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:52:53 chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 03:54:57 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:56:22 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 03:59:47 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:07:03 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-184.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 04:10:21 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-184.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 04:12:04 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.136.21] has joined #lisp 04:13:17 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:14:38 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:21:58 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:23:02 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 04:23:08 linusp [~flyme@222.20.104.61] has joined #lisp 04:24:29 fvw [~user@183.62.131.177] has joined #lisp 04:26:15 -!- linusp [~flyme@222.20.104.61] has quit [Client Quit] 04:26:24 linusp [~flyme@2001:250:4000:8148:2e0:4cff:fe03:77bb] has joined #lisp 04:26:25 -!- Vivitron [ad4c080a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.76.8.10] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:27:56 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:28:21 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:30 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178.191.160.207] has joined #lisp 04:30:05 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31:02 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 04:31:22 -!- linusp [~flyme@2001:250:4000:8148:2e0:4cff:fe03:77bb] has left #lisp 04:32:11 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-163-75.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:33:07 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-184.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 04:33:43 -!- glenn-ingvar [omi@bsd.jails.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:36:33 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:36:48 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 04:41:23 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:42:00 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:42:41 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 04:49:06 drdo [~user@93.108.205.91] has joined #lisp 04:51:47 paul0 [~user@187.58.226.149] has joined #lisp 04:52:14 munificent [~rnystrom@c-67-160-117-35.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:10 hey, all. i'm working on designing a language with an object system very close to clos and i wonder if i can pick the brains of some experts on a problem i'm having. any takers? 04:53:20 Just ask. 04:53:38 ok, my question boils down to how packages and generic functions interact. 04:53:58 if i define a class with a slot, the accessor is just a method specialized to that class, right? 04:54:35 <|3b|> packages just map strings to symbols, they don't interact with very much else 04:55:09 hmm. so does cl just have a top-level global scope that most definitions go into then? 04:55:31 <|3b|> 'accessors' are 2 methods specialized to that class 04:55:37 Pretty much -- partitioned by package. 04:55:50 it's the partitioning that i'm trying to understand better. 04:56:03 That's easy. 04:56:10 Say you have the lexeme foo in your code. 04:56:27 if i have two classes that happen to have a slot ("foo") with the same name, in the same package, i assume everything will be fine: there will two specializations of the foo generic method, one for each class. correct? 04:56:33 You go and look at *package* and then nail bar on the front (if that's your package). 04:56:42 so foo is actually bar:foo. 04:56:55 <|3b|> name of the slot doesn't matter, you name the accessor explicitly 04:57:00 You then use bar:foo as the name of a procedure. 04:57:13 sorry, accessor then, not slot. 04:57:24 In another file, *package* is set to zog, so foo in that file becomes zog:foo. 04:57:36 You name a procedure zog:foo, and that's a different name to bar:foo. 04:57:39 <|3b|> and the name is the symbol :foo, not "foo" 04:57:50 now lets say i have two classes in different packages with accessors of the same name. 04:57:54 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.221.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:57:55 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:58:12 You mean bar:foo and bar:foo? 04:58:17 if i try to import both of them into a third package without renaming or qualifying, that's just a name collision and an error, right? 04:58:18 Or do you mean bar:foo and zog:foo? 04:58:34 <|3b|> if both accessors are names by the same symbol, they are methods on the same generic function 04:58:41 bar:foo and zog:foo, but i want to import them into bang and not have to fully-qualify the name at each use site. 04:58:47 -!- chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:58:57 Then they're not the same name, unless you imported one from the other. 04:59:04 <|3b|> you can't import 2 symbols with the same name into 1 package 04:59:11 (eql 'bar:foo 'zog:foo) will answer that question. 04:59:19 <|3b|> you need a prefix for one, or you need them to be the same symbol 04:59:23 do name collisions like this happen often in practice? 04:59:29 If they're eql then they're the same name -- otherwise they aren't. 04:59:40 <|3b|> (and probably a shadowing-import in the different symbol case, if you :use both) 04:59:55 *|3b|* tends to just use package prefixes 05:00:04 So, you need to re-construct your question, since it was wrong. 05:00:42 which question? 05:00:59 The one about 'same name'. 05:01:28 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:02:08 so symbols defined within a package implicitly get the package prefix as part of their name? 05:02:17 <|3b|> having accessors named by different symbols with the same symbol-name might be a sign you are thinking in c++/java/etc 'methods belong to objects' style, which isn't really right for CLOS 05:02:36 The reader takes an implicit package from the value of *package*. 05:02:54 (in-package "BAR") means that FOO is implcitly BAR:FOO. 05:02:58 that's correct. the challenge for me is that i'm trying to design and object system that's 80% clos-like, but still 20% familiar to a single-dispatch OOPer. 05:03:10 What's challenging about that? 05:03:34 well, my original question is. 05:04:04 coming from a non-clos oop background, methods on different classes having the same name is never a problem since the object functions almost like a dynamic scope for the name resolution. 05:04:15 <|3b|> in CLOS it is better to think in terms of protocols implemented by generic functions, so if you are making FOO methods a lot, and they all do effectively the same thing, possibly you really want a FOO protocol that is implemented for each of those classes, in which case FOO goes in some common package to be used by the others 05:05:30 <|3b|> (and this is all 'who owns methods' rather than single/multiple dispatch) 05:05:30 munificent: It sounds like what you really want are modules. 05:05:33 the use case that comes to mind for me where i'd have a lot of methods with the same name is accessor methods for common properties: things like "name", "value", "id", etc. 05:05:42 -!- paul0 [~user@187.58.226.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:46 what do you mean by modules? 05:05:51 munificent: And you're conflating that with classes because of java and C++, etc. 05:06:00 By a module, I mean something that turns a name into a value. 05:06:20 In CL, you have a couple of implicit modules -- function, value, class, etc. 05:06:22 <|3b|> so have common-properties:name, common-properties:id, etc, and :use that in each of the classes' package 05:06:27 is that different from a scope? 05:06:31 Yes. 05:06:42 paul0 [~user@187.58.226.149] has joined #lisp 05:06:42 Scope is lexical. 05:06:54 Modules are essentially dynamic. 05:07:12 So I can say (symbol-value 'foo) to access foo in the dynamic-value module. 05:07:25 Or I can say (function bar) to access bar in the function module. 05:07:33 -!- xan_ [~xan@75.16.26.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:07:36 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 05:07:41 It sounds like you want something like a module system that can be used in parallel with classes. 05:07:47 is a module just a map from names -> values? 05:08:00 Then I can have a socket class and a socket module. 05:08:06 munificent: That's what I think. 05:08:09 well, my language has modules but i don't know if it's concept of them is the same as cl's. 05:08:20 munificent: Or, perhaps I'm wrong -- perhaps you want one package per class. 05:08:34 munificent: Then you can have socket and socket:open, etc. 05:08:44 right now, it's one module per script file, and you can have as many classes in one as you want. 05:08:47 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:08:53 Does that solve your problem? 05:08:59 chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 05:09:27 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 05:09:38 one of the things i really like about oop is that the objects provide context to let you shorten names. 05:09:45 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Client Quit] 05:10:06 so, if i have a person class and a pet class and both have "name" accessors, i'd rather avoid needing to do (person-name some-person) and (pet-name some-pet). 05:10:44 So, one package per class sounds about right. 05:10:51 <|3b|> well, 'return the name of' isn't a particularly person specific operation, or pet specific 05:10:53 Then you have person:name and pet:name 05:11:06 And if you like you can have them both inherit that from agent:name or something. 05:11:10 well, it's specific to any object that has a name. :) 05:11:18 <|3b|> so i'd argue for names:name, and import that into both person and pet 05:11:37 Then what does it have to do with person or pet? 05:11:44 <|3b|> so (eq pet:name names:name) and (eq pet:name person:name) 05:12:12 pets and persons both have names (in this fictitious example). 05:12:22 Anyhow, think about 1:1 class:namespace mapping and tell us why it won't do what you want. 05:12:55 i'm don't exactly know what you mean by 1:1 class:namespace. 05:13:06 For any given class there is a corresponding package. 05:13:31 at a high level, what i'm going for is that a single module should be able to interact with objects in other modules it imports that to define methods with the same name (but different specializations) without having to qualify those method names. 05:13:37 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:14:14 Too vague; tell us why this approach won't work. 05:14:16 so module a has a method "foo" specialized to "bar" and module b has "foo" specialized to "bang". module c imports both and can just call "foo" and it will dispatch to the right one based on the argument. 05:14:54 let me reread what you're saying and see if i can understand it. 05:16:03 so are you basically saying that method names should include the class they act on? 05:16:25 <|3b|> no, method names should name an operation 05:16:39 No. I'm saying that making the meaning of the name depend on the class seems to do what you've asked for. 05:16:42 <|3b|> or rather generic function names 05:16:55 e.g., socket:open vs. door:open. 05:17:10 zhiv, isn't that the basic idea of multimethods? 05:17:14 N. 05:17:16 <|3b|> and classes for which that operation is valid should have a method on that generic function 05:17:32 A generic function is a single function -- it just has methods that are slotted in. 05:17:34 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:17:41 As such, it has a single entry point and a single exit point. 05:17:45 understood. 05:18:02 So you need to pretty much limit a single generic function to a single semantic purpose. 05:18:08 let me back up a bit. 05:18:28 one solution to my problem here would be to have all generic methods live in a single global scope. 05:18:39 <|3b|> that sounds like a bad idea 05:18:42 Opening things like doors or boxes is fundamentally different to opening sockets -- so they should be handled by different functions taking different arguments. 05:18:51 when you define a specialized method named "foo", it just goes in the same "foo" generic method as all the others. 05:18:55 <|3b|> ^ for that reason 05:19:07 <|3b|> (the different operations part) 05:19:08 they would be handled by different methods, yes. 05:19:18 Yeah, now how do you resolve the name collisions? 05:19:31 The socket guy isn't thinking about doors when he writes open. 05:19:38 in this solution, there would be no name collisions. 05:19:46 How do you avoid them? 05:19:48 <|3b|> what if you have a tcp-enabled door, and you want to both open it as a door and open a socket? 05:20:16 it doesn't matter if the socket guy and the door guy are aware of each other: the socket guy's "open" will specialize on a socket and the other one will specialize on a door, so there's no collision. 05:20:27 What about the other arguments? 05:20:27 3b, that *is* a problem. :) 05:20:38 <|3b|> well, i guess if you only have single inheritance it might be hard to make a tcp-door 05:20:51 Let's say that socket opening takes two arguments and door opening takes four. 05:20:56 *|3b|* assumes better examples would happen in real code though 05:20:59 i have multiple inheritance and multiple dispatch. 05:21:03 How do you mash that into one ill-advised generic function? 05:21:36 my language's type system is similar to ml: all functions actually take a single argument which may be a tuple or a record. 05:21:36 <|3b|> if you have multiple dispatch, even more reason to think about generic functions as protocols independent of classes 05:21:54 so a single generic function can contain methods of all sorts of arity without problem. 05:22:28 munificent: So, what happens when I have an object that is a combination door and socket? 05:22:42 <|3b|> can you dispatch on arguments that aren't there? 05:22:51 munificent: How do I open it in both fashions? 05:23:03 zhivago: good question. i think it will likely prefer the last inherited class first. 05:23:24 So you're completely stuffed. 05:23:26 so if it was "defclass TcpDoor : Socket, Door" then Door would win. 05:23:37 That's why that's a bad idea. 05:23:46 You've conflated semantically separate things together . 05:24:04 Think about words and parts of speech. 05:24:14 lead and lead mean different things as different parts of speech. 05:24:18 yes, i understand this is a bad solution. that's why it's hypothetical. 05:24:46 If you can't qualify them as verb:lead and noun:lead (for example), then you can't resolve lexical ambiguity to reach the proper semantic entity. 05:24:47 the other problem with it is that two unrelated parts of the codebase may define a method with the same name specialized to the exact same argument but intended to do different things. 05:25:05 <|3b|> lead and lead mean different things even in the same part of speech depending on how you pronounce them :p 05:25:06 This is what packages are for. 05:25:11 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:25:23 correct. i designed modules to fix this. 05:25:30 3b: You might be confused as to what part of speech means. 05:25:31 that solves this problem handily. 05:25:40 <|3b|> Zhivago: the noun lead and the noun lead 05:25:43 -!- paul0 [~user@187.58.226.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:25:54 it leaves me with another problem. 05:26:02 if you haven't lost interest yet, i can try to explain that. 05:26:05 paul0 [~user@187.58.226.149] has joined #lisp 05:26:30 munificent: You still haven't pointed out how making one package per class wouldn't solve this problem. 05:26:31 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 05:26:35 munificent: You need to do that first. 05:26:58 which problem? 05:27:05 The problem we just talked about. 05:27:17 If you're having short term memory problems you might want to see a doctor. 05:28:23 was your solution to my problem to just prefix a method name with the class it acts on? 05:28:30 No ... 05:28:45 It was to ... make ... one ... package ... per ... class. 05:28:51 Which is what I said. 05:29:17 You could then specify a default package as per normal, and handle ambiguity as per normal, using package mechanisms. 05:29:18 i see the text you're writing, but you have to understand that "package" and "class" have pretty widely varying meaning across programming languages. 05:29:32 <|3b|> wasn't something like that what was originally asked about? 05:29:38 Since we've been talking in terms of CL ... these terms are CL terms ... 05:29:45 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:30:04 <|3b|> having separate names for the same operation, then conflicts when something tries to use both names 05:30:09 i don't have as much lisp experience as i'd like, which is why i'm here. 05:30:34 I think that munificent has a problem with ignoring things that people write. 05:30:43 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@m352436d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:31:13 -!- paul0 [~user@187.58.226.149] has left #lisp 05:31:38 if you go back to my original question, i'm not actually asking you to design my language (though i do appreciate that). i'm asking how the problems i'm trying to solve are handled within clos. 05:31:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:32:01 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:32:21 <|3b|> clos handles it by using symbols for names rather than bits of text 05:32:38 <|3b|> and CL maps bits of text to symbols through packages 05:33:02 <|3b|> and you can have symbols from one package visible in another 05:33:26 <|3b|> so you can have pet:name and person:name be the same symbol 05:33:38 <|3b|> while having door:open and socket:open be different symbols 05:33:40 so if a generic method is named by a symbol, that symbol names that generic method globally? 05:33:52 <|3b|> no, it games the generic function 05:34:02 sorry, generic function. 05:34:11 <|3b|> ok, yes then 05:34:46 <|3b|> (the method is the part of the generic function specialized on a specific set of classes) 05:35:18 and, just to make sure i understand, things like accessors generally are their own distinct functions even if they have the same textual name. 05:35:19 ? 05:35:41 <|3b|> an accessor is a (pair of) generic function 05:35:50 setter and getter? 05:35:55 <|3b|> it is named like any other generic function, by a symbol 05:35:56 <|3b|> right 05:36:39 <|3b|> whether accessors are the same generic function or not only depends on whether the names are the same or not 05:36:55 <|3b|> if you want them to be the same, give them the same name, if not, don't 05:37:29 so if i define a couple of classes with accessors of the same name, those will end up being methods on the same generic function (but specialized to the appropriate classes)? 05:37:34 <|3b|> if code using that function doesn't need to care what type the object is, just on what the function does, then they probably should have the same name 05:37:40 <|3b|> right 05:37:58 does that only work implicitly within a single package? 05:38:29 <|3b|> packages just map text to symbols 05:38:41 <|3b|> once that is done, they have no relevance to the topic 05:39:15 correct, so accessors with the same name in different packages, they'll end up with different symbols, right? "foo" -> "package1:foo", "foo" -> "package2:foo" 05:39:18 <|3b|> so you have the text "name" in the code, if the current package when that is READ is "PET", that text is mapped to the symbol pet:name 05:39:35 <|3b|> but the text "open" might be mapped to door:open or socket:open depending on the context 05:39:54 <|3b|> only if "FOO" names different symbols in those 2 packages 05:39:58 the context here is just which package i'm in and which ones i've imported? 05:40:39 <|3b|> if package1 and package2 both import common-package:foo, they are the same symbol (common-package:foo in this case, assuming common-package didn't import it from somewhere else) 05:41:09 <|3b|> if they don't import it from anywhere, then they are different symbols 05:41:21 ok, got it. 05:41:55 and if package3 tried to import package1:foo and package2:foo, it would have to rename at least one to avoid the name collision, right? 05:42:17 <|3b|> in the second case, yes (aside from not being able to rename symbols in cl) 05:42:24 you can't rename symbols (: 05:42:28 <|3b|> if they are the same symbol, there is no conflict 05:42:45 maybe "rename" isn't the right term here. 05:42:58 <|3b|> well, it could be in your language, which is why i was specific 05:43:11 <|3b|> in CL you would 'shadow' one of them, and use a package qualifier for the other 05:43:25 "package qualifier" is what i was thinking. 05:43:29 <|3b|> ok 05:44:01 sorry if i seem like a noob. i only have a "read AMOP" knowledge of lisp, and no real hands-on experience. :( 05:44:12 qiang [~user@d75-159-230-107.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:30 <|3b|> well, implement your language in CL, and get some :) 05:44:53 it's hard enough creating a language without having to learn a new one at the same time! 05:45:26 <|3b|> well, being exposed to new language designs can't hurt the design of yours :) 05:46:15 true! 05:46:34 <|3b|> and CL is a good language for prototyping languages, since you can just parse it to something that looks like CL + some macros, then feed that to the CL compiler :) 05:47:04 well... syntax is one of the areas i'm particularly interested in. 05:47:18 <|3b|> right, that's the parsing part 05:47:38 <|3b|> having a nice optimizing compiler already there while you worry about syntax is convenient 05:47:50 hmm, good point. i always assume people who make languages in lisp always use s-exprs. 05:48:14 <|3b|> well, that's partly because most of the people making languages in CL use CL, so are used to it 05:48:25 <|3b|> (and are used to tools tuned for sexps) 05:48:34 true. 05:48:45 *|3b|* would sacrifice a good bit of syntax to keep paredit for example 05:49:22 a very long term goal of mine is to have that level of structure-aware editing in a language with a richer syntax. 05:49:57 but that's way out there on the horizon. right now i just have to nail down my object system. 05:51:16 thanks for your help. i really appreciate it. 05:51:24 *|3b|* would probably go the other way, less syntax in language, more in tools :0 05:51:26 if you're curious, here's some context for my questions: http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2011/04/21/multimethods-multiple-inheritance-multiawesome/ 05:52:59 i may return for more questions in the distant future. until then, thanks! 05:53:18 -!- munificent [~rnystrom@c-67-160-117-35.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: munificent] 05:55:10 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 05:59:34 splittist [~splittist@AMontsouris-553-1-20-3.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:01:37 -!- chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:04:26 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:04:53 Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:00 xan_ [~xan@75.16.26.133] has joined #lisp 06:09:50 goingtomoonbrb [~dongs@host1.prin.edu] has joined #lisp 06:09:58 -!- goingtomoonbrb [~dongs@host1.prin.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 06:12:03 chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 06:14:42 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:14:59 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 06:15:55 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:18:47 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:19:13 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:20:05 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-35-115.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:20:40 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-35-115.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 06:23:44 -!- qiang [~user@d75-159-230-107.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:24:19 <|3b|> are there any problems with running slime-setup more than once? 06:24:45 <|3b|> (for example to load an extra contrib that you don't want loaded by default) 06:24:58 fvw` [~user@183.62.131.177] has joined #lisp 06:27:33 -!- chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:28:28 -!- fvw [~user@183.62.131.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:31:36 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:31:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:31:36 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:39:09 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:40:13 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 06:42:21 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-35-115.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:52:45 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:00:13 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:00:17 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:00:56 nevermind [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 07:01:33 -!- nevermind [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Client Quit] 07:01:56 nevermind [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 07:02:25 -!- nevermind [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Client Quit] 07:03:01 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 07:06:07 -!- pnq [~nick@AC82060C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:06:33 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-2.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:10:44 ASau [~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:10:49 cch [~user@124.160.106.9] has joined #lisp 07:11:15 -!- Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:16:12 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.100.125] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:16:16 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:18:09 lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7BC9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:11 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7FA06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:21:13 -!- cch [~user@124.160.106.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:21:47 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has joined #lisp 07:23:30 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.171] has joined #lisp 07:30:13 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-68.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:30:45 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:32:09 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 07:32:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@75.16.26.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:33:06 mark__ [~markskilb@host81-152-164-87.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:34:22 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:34:29 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 07:34:29 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 07:34:49 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:35:56 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 07:36:00 -!- fvw` [~user@183.62.131.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:36:14 fvw` [~user@183.62.131.177] has joined #lisp 07:37:03 fvw`` [~user@183.62.131.177] has joined #lisp 07:38:32 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 07:40:47 -!- fvw` [~user@183.62.131.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:44:36 alama [~alama@ip4dab5c2d.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 07:45:45 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:53:41 -!- splittist [~splittist@AMontsouris-553-1-20-3.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:55:05 Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has joined #lisp 07:55:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-1.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:56:39 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-5-1.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:58:17 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-113-67.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:36 wow, stack overflow applying a stylesheet using xuriella 07:59:43 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:59:54 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 08:03:00 slash_ [~unknown@pD955FD77.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:22 nikodemus [~nikodemus@82.181.199.216] has joined #lisp 08:10:28 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-brcsabynrwckrfqu] has joined #lisp 08:12:17 bsod1 [~sinan@88.244.136.55] has joined #lisp 08:13:42 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 08:14:57 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:15:57 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host81-152-164-87.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:15:57 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-68.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:16:27 mark__ [~markskilb@host81-152-164-87.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:25 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-1.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:26:06 lichtblau: hmm, i can use xuriella:apply-stylesheet with a particular stylesheet and a particular xml file just fine on a stock sbcl, but the same stylesheet and xml file generate a stack overflow condition in a stock ccl 08:27:09 and in sbcl, applying the stylesheet to larger xml files yields warnings about the stack; it seems that xuriella digs in pretty deep 08:30:09 erm, Lisp stack or XSL stack? 08:32:41 *lichtblau* notes that there was a fix in Plexippus darcs recently where lazy lists weren't lazy 08:32:43 But without seeing the stacktrace I can't tell whether this is an XPath problem. 08:34:05 michael_lf [~michael@117.32.153.145] has joined #lisp 08:34:12 Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.206] has joined #lisp 08:34:48 Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:36:01 moah [~gnu@dslb-084-061-241-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:07 lichtblau: lisp stack 08:39:26 it's surprising; my xml isn't all that complicated (i mean, nesting goes down to at most level 10, i'd say, max); surely xuriella can handle it 08:40:02 let me try to give you a backtrace 08:40:29 (i'm using the latest xuriella, plexippus, etc., from quicklisp, so they should be fairly recent) 08:41:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:42:28 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003d04.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:13 alama pasted "xuriella/xpath stack overflow on ccl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/121581 08:44:19 lichtblau: http://paste.lisp.org/submit 08:45:03 not sure how helpful that is; i couldn't get out of the append pipes stuff 08:45:20 if you want the stylesheet and xml, let me know 08:47:03 (btw, this is after the deftype magic that you shared yesterday) 08:47:16 (for dealing with the xsl document function) 08:47:22 (on ccl) 08:47:32 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:56:24 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 08:58:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:59:49 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:00:09 -!- kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-33-184.resnet.ucsb.edu] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:00:45 not particularly helpful. Can you give me access to xsl and xml so that I can try myself? 09:05:47 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host81-152-164-87.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:05:54 ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:07:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:12:40 *|3b|* seems to have broken backquote :p 09:13:26 <|3b|> at least judging from the "0: (SB-INT:BUG #)" in the backtrace 09:15:38 <|3b|> seems to have been caused by using ,,@ where i meant ,@, 09:17:46 <|3b|> hmm, or maybe not 09:20:30 *|3b|* isn't exactly sure what i meant there 09:25:42 <|3b|> ok, possibly narrowed down to (defmacro foo () ```((,,@1))) or (defmacro foo () ```((,',@1))) 09:26:23 <|3b|> not particularly valid in either case, but presumably not bad enough to justify a broken error message or sb-int:bug 09:27:07 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-15.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:01 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:28:10 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:28:17 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-15.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-1.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:31:20 ldzinux [~ldzinux@123.5.235.75] has joined #lisp 09:31:52 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-15.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:33:17 c|mell [~cmell@86.122.171.58] has joined #lisp 09:34:01 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:36:43 <|3b|> actually, i guess the defmacro part isn't needed, just ```((,,@1)) 09:39:40 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:40:23 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-150-126.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:40:49 slash_1 [~unknown@pD955C548.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:03 -!- ldzinux [~ldzinux@123.5.235.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:42:16 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955FD77.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:42:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:42:59 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:43:09 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 09:43:20 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 09:43:20 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 09:46:18 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:46:34 -!- alama [~alama@ip4dab5c2d.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Quit: alama] 09:48:53 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 09:51:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:56:14 -!- codetonowhere [~Adium@78-105-3-181.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 09:56:22 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.150.208] has joined #lisp 09:56:44 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:57:57 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@82.181.199.216] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:58:36 *|3b|* supposes maybe i did actually want ,@, 10:00:16 longfin [~longfin@59.10.230.247] has joined #lisp 10:00:17 amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 10:01:12 hi guys, how can i see function signatures in lisp interactive mode ? 10:01:25 <|3b|> do you mean SLIME? 10:01:40 no just clisp 10:01:56 *|3b|* doesn't know how to do that from clisp repl 10:02:14 without help of emacs or ... . 10:03:03 *|3b|* uses SLIME, which runs on emacs, and can show signature of current form at bottom of screen 10:03:10 relcomp [~chatzilla@e180075175.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:04:17 <|3b|> looks like DESCRIBE might show aruments 10:05:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:05:24 <|3b|> heh, it can also connect to a website and fail to download some random web page 10:05:30 *|3b|* was not expecting that 10:05:50 Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has joined #lisp 10:06:21 so if i wanna know ED i must say (describe ed) ? 10:06:39 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:47 <|3b|> ah, maybe it succeeded in downloading it, it was just overly verbose... 10:06:52 <|3b|> (describe #'ed) 10:07:44 <|3b|> using ' instead of #' there is what caused the downloading, and even aside from that tells you a lot more than is wanted in this case 10:07:53 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 10:07:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 10:07:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:08:00 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.150.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:08:01 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:08:05 k 10:08:39 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:30 <|3b|> hmm, clisp seems to have a webserver based inspect, interesting 10:10:11 yes it has 10:10:30 you can set several browsers for it too 10:10:53 how ? 10:11:24 *browser-something*, set it to some browser it knows 10:11:35 it has a list of browsers it supports 10:11:42 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 10:11:52 even konqueror you can use 10:11:58 <|3b|> (inspect foo :frontend :http) 10:12:09 i think it's even customizable further 10:12:31 <|3b|> which will open a browser if it can (probably using that var) or give a url 10:14:08 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:14:15 -!- longfin [~longfin@59.10.230.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:18:46 Bronsa [~brace@host248-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:20:51 -!- c|mell [~cmell@86.122.171.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:21:51 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:22:11 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 10:22:35 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:59 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:30 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 10:26:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27:00 francogrex [~user@109.130.63.175] has joined #lisp 10:28:57 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has joined #lisp 10:30:22 Xach: Are you here? 10:30:24 Guthur [~Guthur@host81-131-242-39.range81-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:44 naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.nbiserv.com] has joined #lisp 10:34:06 -!- The_Fellow [~storm2@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:34:50 The_Fellow [~storm2@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 10:38:14 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:16 Xach: sent a mail 10:44:30 chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 10:47:24 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:47:39 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:48:18 -!- amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 10:48:30 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:11 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 10:52:51 TeMPOraL [~user@188.147.145.112.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:53:32 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:54:34 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:13 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c72ce0.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:56:16 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-178-003-007-218.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:34 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 10:58:20 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.63.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:20 cfy` [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 10:58:42 -!- cfy` is now known as Guest23883 10:58:45 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 10:59:11 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:00:44 -!- Guest23883 is now known as cfy 11:00:45 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 11:00:45 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 11:02:41 splittist [~splittist@AMontsouris-553-1-20-3.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:03:13 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:03:35 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 11:03:47 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 11:03:47 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 11:06:43 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B183.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:14 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:07:17 hmm..debian thinks clisp is an sbcl build dependency 11:09:50 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:10:40 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.8.53] has joined #lisp 11:17:07 if it doesn't come precompiled then it will need an implementation to compile it, not sure if that is the case with the Debian package though 11:17:56 I'd have expected the implementation to be sbcl itself, though. 11:18:23 But maybe they have ideological reasons for going with clisp 11:18:25 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.203] has joined #lisp 11:18:43 Clisp can be compiled from source to bootstrap. 11:18:53 <|3b|> Guthur: i was messing around with rasterizing quadratics in fragment shaders based on some stuff in one of the gpu gems, didn't get as far as actual fonts 11:18:56 But sbcl needs clisp to be compiled. 11:19:01 It's a reasonable choice for a source bootstrap path to sbcl. 11:19:21 <|3b|> not sure it was really appropriate, since the antialiasing seemed a bit flaky 11:19:44 *|3b|* might do scalable bitmap fonts if i wanted to try something now 11:20:33 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 11:21:29 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 11:21:56 carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.235] has joined #lisp 11:23:13 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:23:33 |3b|, any work on geometry based fonts? 11:23:51 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:23:56 I tried cl-ftgl, which is pretty cool, but it relies on IM as far as I can see 11:24:00 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 11:24:09 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 11:24:09 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 11:24:09 with no exposure of the underlying geometry information 11:24:27 <|3b|> nope, shouldn't be too hard to grab outlines from zpb-ttf or something, and build geometry out of that though 11:24:35 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:25:06 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:30 would not be the appropriate approach then, I was thinking of rolling my own but wasn't sure of what angle to come from 11:25:51 aware of any papers covering the technique? 11:25:54 <|3b|> which would not be appropriate? 11:26:11 oops 11:26:14 not/that 11:26:39 <|3b|> oh building geometry? depends on what you are trying to do 11:27:14 <|3b|> if you priority is large amounts of readable text, i'd probably lean towards rasterizing it to a texture using freetype or something 11:27:44 <|3b|> if you want huge letters scattered around the scene, or extruded text, etc, geometry would be good 11:28:04 I was thinking more of the latter 11:28:20 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.210.216] has joined #lisp 11:28:31 text around a 3D scene, maybe hovering over entities 11:28:42 Hi all! 11:29:07 also the possibility of having lighting effects is appealing 11:29:38 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:58 <|3b|> well, once you have outlines, main remaining problem i can think of is tesselating the curves 11:31:03 though I'd probably also want some large bodies of text, but there already seems to be plenty of ways to raster to a texture, so it shouldn't be a problem 11:31:49 <|3b|> which isn't too hard either depending on what features GPU features you can use, or how much quality you don't need 11:32:05 <|3b|> (or how much geometry rate you can burn on small text) 11:33:38 I thought most recent cards have been more starved for memory bandwidth and fill rate, as opposed to geometry 11:34:15 <|3b|> recent stuff is probably sharing prcessing between geometry and fill 11:34:41 <|3b|> and triangle setup and some other bits and pieces in between the parts shaders handle can get overloaded if you aren't careful 11:35:15 <|3b|> you probably wouldn't want to be dumping a few thousand polys per character on 10 pixel tall text for example :) 11:35:19 I was thinking that if you were not using too many different fonts that some form of instancing might help 11:35:33 depends on the amount of text obviously 11:36:24 <|3b|> possibly, instancing is more about reducing batches, so sort of depends no how much text is visible at once 11:36:25 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:36:38 <|3b|> and how much the visible set changes per frame 11:37:01 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@88.244.136.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:37:21 <|3b|> and how much ram you have, might just be better to build a VBO per string rather than trying to maintain a set of positions for a given character 11:37:25 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 11:37:44 -!- fvw`` [~user@183.62.131.177] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:38:15 bsod1 [~sinan@78.176.255.101] has joined #lisp 11:38:19 <|3b|> or maybe one per area, if the text doesn't move around 11:38:19 Demosthenes [~demo@208.54.36.62] has joined #lisp 11:38:28 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.147.145.112.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:38:32 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 11:39:00 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 11:39:14 there probably wont be too much text, not in the 3D environment anyway 11:39:35 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:39:36 *|3b|* probably wouldn't worry about it to start with 11:40:20 yeah, if I could have a VBO with text in it I'd be more than happy 11:40:25 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:55 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:44:31 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:45:17 alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 11:45:21 *|3b|* supposes the other hard part is triangulating the shapes 11:45:29 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:45:40 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:46:18 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:46:52 *|3b|* forgot you need to do that for the extruded version, unlike just drawing it to a plane, where you can cheat by using stencil buffer 11:50:28 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:53:42 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@pD955C548.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:54:47 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:55:40 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:27 What about simply rendering each individial character to a quad and using the spacing info? 11:57:42 Probably only feasible with monospaced fonts though. 11:57:57 Or using angelcode's bmfont? 11:58:21 <|3b|> nah, works with proportional fonts too, as long as the background is transparent 11:58:22 to render your font onto a single texuture and get spacing info in uv oords? 11:58:42 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:05 <|3b|> i think the goal was actual geometry you could walk around though 11:59:10 ah 11:59:16 sorry, came in in the middle 11:59:16 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.8.53] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01:03 tcr: hi 12:01:27 ZabaQ: reminds me of DF's display engine, which uses prepared texture with monospaced fonts/symbols 12:01:32 yeah, geometry, sorry missed the discussion there 12:01:49 Xach: yo! 12:02:01 will be here for the next half an hour 12:02:09 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@78.176.255.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:02:40 bsod1 [~sinan@78.173.124.32] has joined #lisp 12:02:40 tcr: http://xach.com/lisp/buildapp/#implementation - see part 3.4 and "Two things to keep in mind" 12:04:00 Xach: that answer is not satisfactory though 12:04:17 Xach: The problem is that you can get an error during SB-IMPL:REINIT in which case you land in sbcl's debugger 12:04:35 francogrex [~user@109.130.63.175] has joined #lisp 12:04:55 What's sb-impl:reinit? 12:05:19 the function that is run when you execute the dumped executable 12:05:32 Under what circumstances does it error? 12:05:46 for example when it doesn't find dynamic libraries 12:05:49 or on an SIGINT 12:06:00 And that's called before the init hooks? 12:06:06 yeah 12:06:19 *Xach* scratches head, will think about it 12:06:31 what am I missing that you just don't reset *I-D-H* to its previous value? literal function weirdness? 12:08:20 <|3b|> hmm, emacs puts error messages inline when the minibuffer is busy, that's interesting 12:09:12 ron__ [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:45 -!- ron__ [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:10:23 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:10:32 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:12:21 Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has joined #lisp 12:13:08 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 12:13:20 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.136.21] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:15:18 tcr: The previous value is whatever the default value when sbcl starts up. 12:15:21 Landr [~user@178-116-225-100.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 12:15:59 tcr: You mean check to see if someone has modified it, and keep that value? 12:16:18 yeah 12:17:01 one way to demonstrate the problem is: for ((i=0; i<100; i++)); do ./dump.bin. done # where dump.bin is an executable produced by buildapp which disabled the debugger in *init-hooks* 12:17:08 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Client Quit] 12:17:10 then press Ctrl-C lots of times while that is running 12:17:23 should get you into the debugger, and backtrace shows sb-impl::reinit 12:17:32 Is it possible that init-hooks should be run earlier, too? 12:17:41 <|3b|> when using slime-complete-symbol*, if you complete something like multiple-value-l, is there some way to pick the multiple-value-list completion easily, that doesn't leave -l at the end? 12:17:42 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.63.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:55 Xach: There will always be a race I guess 12:18:19 Xach: There simply is stuff to be initialized for arbitrary Lisp functions (in the init-hook) to be executed 12:18:21 <|3b|> does --disable-debugger not get preserved? 12:18:36 tcr: Is it possible to trigger the debugger when --disable-debugger is in effect? Or is that deep enough into the runtime to intercede specially? 12:18:53 disable-debugger sets *invoke-debugger-hook* 12:19:07 In the runtime, in C? 12:19:57 I'm talking of the Lisp debugger anyway so it's all happening in the Lisp runtime 12:20:36 You should not be able to trigger the debugger with disable-debugger :-) 12:20:41 tcr: Right, I guess I'm trying to figure out why a user can't do what --disable-debugger does. 12:21:09 Xach: He can, by setting *I-D-H* but which does not get preserved by buildapp 12:21:25 maybe I should try setting *debugger-hook*, too 12:22:01 tcr: But *i-d-h* is usually nil in a core when you pass --disable-debugger 12:22:23 Really? I'm surprised by that 12:22:34 Start a plain sbcl, *i-d-h* is nil. 12:23:13 of course 12:23:18 but if you start sbcl with --disable-hook 12:23:27 * sb-ext:*invoke-debugger-hook* 12:23:27 SB-DEBUG::DEBUGGER-DISABLED-HOOK 12:23:57 tcr: Yes, sorry. What I mean is, can you write Lisp code that does the same thing that --disable-debugger does? 12:24:17 Without assuming that the core was saved with a special value the last time? 12:24:36 I'm not getting the question 12:25:20 <|3b|> (sb-ext:disable-debugger)? 12:25:33 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:25:38 |3b|: but apparently you can't run that early enough to guarantee it won't land in the debugger. 12:25:39 you can set *i-d-h* obviously, of course the debugger wouldn't be disabled up until that point of execution 12:25:56 tcr: How does disable-debugger set it so early? 12:26:03 Or is it a runtime component to it as well? 12:26:04 -!- naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.nbiserv.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 12:26:07 A non-lisp component 12:26:08 <|3b|> you can't set it before saving? 12:26:10 might very well be 12:26:15 That's what I'm wondering. 12:26:48 |3b|: Buildapp doesn't currently work like that. I'm wondering if buildapp can stay the same and still give full control to the user for configuring the debugger. 12:27:01 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:27:08 what about the save-previous-value scheme? 12:27:09 I thought *init-hooks* or the toplevel function would suffice but I was wrong. 12:27:15 <|3b|> ah 12:27:20 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:27:31 tcr: Maybe that's the only thing that can be done. 12:27:50 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 12:27:59 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 12:27:59 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:28:11 I gotta run now :-) talk later 12:28:16 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.187] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:28:16 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 12:28:16 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Client Quit] 12:28:25 dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:28:55 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-brcsabynrwckrfqu] has left #lisp 12:30:14 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:30:19 *|3b|* wonders what i broke in slime-proxy arglist display 12:31:26 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:05 -!- fantazo__ [~fantazo@178.191.160.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:32:10 cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has joined #lisp 12:32:21 -!- cfy [~cfy@218.75.17.73] has quit [Changing host] 12:32:21 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:33:28 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.148] has joined #lisp 12:33:37 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 12:33:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 12:33:37 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:37:01 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:31 |3b|, With gl:with-gl-array I get a compiler note saying: could not stack allocate the result of... 12:37:48 any easy way to improve this situation? 12:38:00 SBCL 12:38:20 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:38:58 *|3b|* might have just commented out that dx declaration 12:39:11 cfy [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 12:39:36 -!- cfy is now known as Guest20308 12:40:29 -!- Guest20308 is now known as cfy` 12:40:46 <|3b|> hmm, or just ignored it, don't see it changed anywhere 12:40:57 -!- cfy` [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Changing host] 12:40:58 cfy` [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 12:41:43 *Guthur* has to check what dx actually does... 12:43:20 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:50 well, commenting it out does remove the note 12:44:02 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-174-35.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:45:36 linusp [~flyme@2001:250:4000:8148:2e0:4cff:fe03:77bb] has joined #lisp 12:46:02 -!- chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:47:21 -!- linusp [~flyme@2001:250:4000:8148:2e0:4cff:fe03:77bb] has left #lisp 12:47:34 linusp [~flyme@2001:250:4000:8148:2e0:4cff:fe03:77bb] has joined #lisp 12:47:42 is there a way to stifle compiler notes on SBCL 12:48:54 chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 12:49:07 guther: apropos muffle-warning 12:49:55 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 12:50:03 Good morning, all. 12:51:11 statonjr [~statonjr@64.134.189.76] has joined #lisp 12:52:58 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:53:17 -!- chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:53:28 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:04 Common Lisp really needs a standard extensible stream specification. It's easy to write your own streams in particular implementation, but it would be much better if that code were portable 12:54:18 <|3b|> trivial-gray-streams ? 12:54:19 Without having a library that knows how to peek under the covers of all the implementations 12:54:28 I know about that 12:54:45 should I be able to just call (muffle-warning), it causes the preceding code to be unreachable 12:54:51 Common Lisp really needs an updated standard. 12:55:06 It has been a long time. The MOP should be part of CLOS 12:55:30 -!- cfy` [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:40 *|3b|* votes just pretend all of these things happened, and the portability libs are part of an implementation 12:56:05 cfy` [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 12:56:14 which ? 12:56:17 |3b|, that's one way to look at it 12:56:28 which implementation would that be ? 12:56:28 jikanter [~quassel@66.146.192.40] has joined #lisp 12:56:31 -!- cfy` is now known as Guest12653 12:56:38 <|3b|> SBwtgsacmCL? 12:56:43 The amusing bit is how small the community really is. An updated standard is probably more plausible than we think. 12:57:00 Just takes another Guy Steele to step forward and do it 12:57:01 <|3b|> ChibaPet: but not an /official/ standard 12:57:12 <|3b|> we already have 7 or 8 new standards, 1 per implementation :p 12:57:18 Personally, I'd rather write code 12:58:25 After all, just look up "kluge" in the CLtL2 index 12:58:48 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:58:53 ChibaPet: Have you listened to gigamonkey's talk on the ANSI CL standardization process? 12:59:04 ChibaPet: I learned quite a bit about the process from it. 12:59:06 No, not yet. 12:59:15 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 12:59:34 I participated in ALU board meetings. If it's anything similar... Anyway, do you have a URI? 12:59:38 http://s3.amazonaws.com/weekly-repl/weekly-repl_ep-1.mp3 12:59:40 ty 12:59:52 Correct: "kludges: 1-971" 12:59:56 correction 13:00:42 Haven't cracked my dead-tree version in a long time. $47 at the MIT Coop in 1990 13:00:49 -!- js0000 [~js@67.208.188.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:49 hard cover 13:01:04 hardcover! 13:01:09 Paper copy, but signed by Steele. :) 13:01:20 <-- fanboy sometimes 13:01:34 I have a copy of Steven Levy's "Hackers" signed by Greenblatt. 13:01:34 Nice. He worked in the Apple Cambridge Research Lab, along with Moon 13:01:48 Incredible place 13:02:07 *Xach* got his copy of Patterns of Software signed by rpg at the last ILC. "Oh, that one." he said. 13:02:12 Or maybe I'm misremembering, and Steele was just at TMC 13:02:20 Didn't know they had such a thing. Nifty. I can't wait to get back to Massachusetts. 13:02:27 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:02:33 1989-1995 13:02:41 Then they closed it down. 13:02:46 hm 13:03:04 We had a layoff party, with orange and black Hallowe'en decorations. Served apple turnovers to eat 13:03:10 Hah, nice! 13:03:27 -!- [df] [~df@81.187.8.163] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:04:06 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 13:05:14 -!- _death is now known as adeht 13:08:12 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:09:51 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@89.129.116.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:11:03 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@89.129.116.150] has joined #lisp 13:12:07 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 13:12:08 does anyone here use narrowing at all? 13:12:26 I'm not sure quite what it could be useful for 13:12:53 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:14:06 -!- Guest12653 [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:36 Guest12653 [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has joined #lisp 13:16:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-15.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:16:26 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host217-43-220-61.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:26 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host217-43-220-61.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:16:26 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 13:17:10 -!- linusp [~flyme@2001:250:4000:8148:2e0:4cff:fe03:77bb] has left #lisp 13:22:25 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:22:49 -!- Guest12653 [~cfy@218.75.27.163] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:10 Hi, all. In Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming, Norvig asks, as an excersive, that the reader write a lambda expression that is equivalent to a let* expression. There's no answer given in the book, however. Is this correct? https://gist.github.com/940494 13:23:55 do you get 36? 13:24:33 err, 42 rather 13:24:38 I do, yes. 13:25:16 francogrex [~user@109.130.63.175] has joined #lisp 13:25:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:27 well, the outcome is correct, but the procedure isn't 13:25:35 oh wait 13:25:43 I thought as much. 13:26:03 if a string is read from a file as "39,542" can read-from-string (or something else) be instructed to ignore the comma? 13:26:03 Areil [~user@113.172.38.206] has joined #lisp 13:26:10 the innermost lambda has to be (lambda (y) (* y y)) 13:26:37 Ah, and pass x to it. 13:26:37 I see. 13:26:41 That makes more sense. 13:27:03 so the here you go 13:27:04 ((lambda (x) (+ x ((lambda (y) (* y y)) x))) 6) 13:27:19 *|3b|* would close over it rather than passing it 13:27:29 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 13:27:37 ah yes, you don't actually have to pass it i guess 13:27:54 <|3b|> the inner body should still be (+ x y) 13:28:02 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@89.129.116.150] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:28:41 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@208.54.36.62] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:28:53 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:29:00 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:29:16 ((lambda (x) (+ x ((lambda () (* x x))))) 6) 13:29:19 there, closure :> 13:29:37 well, not really, but you know what i mean 13:30:01 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@89.129.116.150] has joined #lisp 13:30:48 |3b|: can you elaborate (for a newbie)? 13:30:48 <|3b|> forgot to bind Y, and add it to X :p 13:31:29 <|3b|> markskilbeck: well, can you rewrite that let* as nested LET? 13:32:04 &aux anyone? :) 13:32:40 paul0 [~user@187.58.226.149] has joined #lisp 13:33:06 (let ((x 6)) (let ((y (* x x))) (+ x y))) ? 13:33:26 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:31 <|3b|> once you have nested LETs, you can trivial turn (let ((var value)) body) into ((lambda (var) body) value), so apply that to each of those LETs 13:33:40 markskilbeck: shouldn't you use let*? 13:33:55 paul0: context is an exercise to rewrite let* as something else 13:33:56 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:34:06 oh, right 13:34:16 let* is a macro that expands to multiple let, no? 13:34:22 ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has joined #lisp 13:34:25 <|3b|> it is a special operator in CL 13:34:30 Landr: maybe, maybe not. 13:34:33 I would write nested let 13:34:39 ah no, special operators 13:34:43 <|3b|> but you could rewrite most of the special operators in terms of one or more of the others 13:34:49 |3b|, Landr: Thank you very much. 13:34:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:34:56 but I'm a lisp noob, so, probably there's another way 13:35:27 <|3b|> paul0: i think it specifically wanted lambdas, but nested let is a good starting point 13:36:01 also, I'm having a problem with a SICP exercise 13:36:02 http://pastebin.com/6MUMH8Wg 13:36:19 it says "C is not a real number", why? 13:36:30 paul0: because C is a symbol 13:36:35 <|3b|> because C isn't a number and you tried to square it 13:36:43 paul0: '(a b c) evaluates to a list of three symbols, A, B, and C. 13:36:46 <|3b|> or maybe it was the < 13:37:08 (sort '(3 2 1) #'<) works fine 13:37:09 paul0: if you wanted a list of the values of the variables a, b, and c, you could use (list a b c) 13:37:09 <|3b|> ' is not a generic "make a list" operator 13:37:22 hm 13:37:29 <|3b|> ' returns the /exact/ list that was in the source (after it was READ) 13:37:38 paul0: not really. sort is destructive and modifying a quoted list has undefined consequences. 13:38:05 |3b|: https://gist.github.com/940522 ? 13:38:12 using (list a b c) made it work 13:38:20 urandom__ [~user@p548A57AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:25 <|3b|> markskilbeck: that looks better 13:38:43 *markskilbeck* punches the air, a la The Breakfast Club 13:39:52 '(a b c) == (list 'a 'b 'c) 13:39:59 <|3b|> Landr: no 13:40:02 no? :< 13:40:27 <|3b|> '(a b c) == (quote (a b c)), where (a b c) is a literal list 13:40:41 hmm 13:40:46 <|3b|> (list 'a 'b 'c) creates a new list containing the symbols a b and c 13:41:17 literals having no relationship to any previous objects created? 13:41:22 <|3b|> '(a b c) could return the same list as some other '(a b c) somewhere else in the code 13:41:42 which is why (eq '(a b c) '(a b c)) => nil ? 13:41:44 <|3b|> or sharing structure with the tail of a '(z b c) 13:41:48 <|3b|> it could be T 13:41:58 depending on implementation? 13:41:59 <|3b|> which is why you aren't allowed to modify it 13:42:00 <|3b|> right 13:42:04 i see 13:42:06 <|3b|> or it could be in read-only memory 13:42:29 <|3b|> or part of some data structure used by an editor running in the same image 13:42:33 also, what is the non-destructive alternative to sort? 13:42:43 <|3b|> (sort (copy-list ... )...) 13:42:46 paul0: (sort (copy-seq ...) ...) 13:43:15 joker [~user@dslb-188-105-097-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:24 thanks 13:43:47 pnq [~nick@ACA2418E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:21 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@64.134.189.76] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 13:44:56 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:29 is there any particular reason to sort be destructive? And any pattern to know when a function is destructive or not? 13:46:04 destructive versions can be more efficient time/memory-wise i suppose 13:46:14 paul0: yes, it's more useful for it to be destructive: you can make it non-destructive using copy-seq as shown by Xach. 13:46:18 and if you're not going to re-use the input anyway 13:46:36 yes, but lispers tend to not use/create destructive functions 13:46:44 That's false. 13:47:26 Most functions internally use destructive algorithms, for performance and practical reasons. But outside of the function, they're functional. 13:47:29 Functional programmers tend to not use destructive functions, because they have side effects. 13:47:35 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:48:04 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 13:48:28 well, I don't care for what happens internally, the problem is the side effects, like peterhil said 13:48:56 the problem ist not side effects, but assignment statements 13:49:01 statonjr [~statonjr@64.134.189.76] has joined #lisp 13:49:05 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:49:08 I didn't know that sort was destructive, fortunately I wasn't sorting a global variable or something like that 13:49:24 didn't knew 13:49:53 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:50:01 you have to remember to re-assgin your variable if you sort it 13:50:38 i think you have to do it with all destructive functions 13:50:43 you can define a modify-macro, SORTF 13:51:43 mark__ [~markskilb@host217-43-220-61.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:48 I can, but this destructive behavior surprised me. Since this is the standard behavior, I'll have to get used to it 13:52:37 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:52:38 joker: not all. 13:52:42 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:53:06 yeah sort is kinda hidden, but most of them have a #\n at the beginning 13:53:18 Xach: not all but all which operate on lists 13:53:24 joker: like DELETE ;) 13:53:30 joker: no. 13:53:50 i thought i read that in "on lisp" 13:53:59 delete nice one ^^ 13:54:18 joker: nconc, for example, is well-specified regarding its effect on the arguments. 13:54:33 so you can just hang on to the first argument, and it'll have it's last cons modified. 13:54:45 If you were so inclined. 13:58:02 -!- kephas is now known as nowhere_man 13:59:29 Xach: i'm not sure what you want to say with that 13:59:38 nconc is destructive 14:00:12 joker: What I mean is that you don't have to assign the result if you already have a handle on the first list. 14:01:03 that assumes the first list is non-nil, it's also bad style 14:01:11 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:27 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 14:02:10 I agree that it's bad style. I'm more talking about what's specified than what's stylish. 14:02:32 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host217-43-220-61.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:04:22 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:05:12 <|3b|> are any of the slime arglist display methods extensible? 14:05:38 morning 14:10:20 *|3b|* wonders if a patch to add that would be likely to be accepted 14:11:51 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:08 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-38-226.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:27 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:15:37 what # exactly means in #'< 14:15:38 ? 14:15:58 <|3b|> #' not just # 14:16:02 it's a dispatching macro character 14:16:20 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:16:36 <|3b|> # is a dispatching macro character, combined with ' it reads as (FUNCTION ...) 14:16:42 paul0: it's shorthand for #' is shorthand for (FUNCTION ) 14:16:47 hm 14:16:53 naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.nbiserv.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:07 <|3b|> so (FUNCTION <) in this case, which looks up the symbol < in the function namespace 14:17:16 I'm trying to write something like this: ((if (test) #'+ #'-) 2 2) 14:17:30 <|3b|> put funcall at the beginning, or use scheme 14:17:44 yes, the example I'm trying to write is in scheme 14:17:52 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-136-166-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:52 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host86-136-166-198.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:17:52 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 14:17:54 I mean, is a scheme example from sicp 14:17:57 <|3b|> CL doesn't evaluate the operator in a form teh same wasy as other parts 14:18:05 <|3b|> *the same way 14:18:16 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-38-226.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:18:39 -!- michael_lf [~michael@117.32.153.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:18:48 in scheme there's no FUNCTION operator, you'd just do ((if (test) + -) 2 2) 14:18:50 <|3b|> so (funcall (something-that-returns-a-function) ...) 14:19:09 <|3b|> instead of ((scheme-code-that-returns-function) ...) 14:19:39 -!- ZabaQ [~johnfredc@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:39 pigdude [~tallen@gateway1.atlantic-media.us] has joined #lisp 14:20:13 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.63.175] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:42 <|3b|> (lambda ...) is the only thing besides a function name (including macros and special operators) that can be used as an operator, but only because of special evaluation rules for it, not due to (lambda ...) evaluating to a function in other contexts 14:23:00 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:24:28 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:43 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:25:26 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.58.180.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:27:26 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-15.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:27:45 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:28:51 (defun a-plus-abs-b (a b) 14:28:52 (funcall (if (> b 0) #'+ #'-)) a b) 14:29:18 still isn't working 14:29:25 I can't think of any case where there'd be any point of using ((lambda (x) body) args) instead of just (let ((x args)) body)... Why is the lambda-as-function-designator allowed? Have I missed an obvious use-case? 14:29:34 <|3b|> paul0: check parens? 14:29:58 (funcall (if t #'+ #'-) 2 2) 14:30:01 oh 14:30:04 <|3b|> loke: probably old code as much as anything 14:30:06 right, didn't noticed 14:30:51 <|3b|> or ease of implementation when (let ((x args)) ...) is a macro that expands to ((lambda (x) ...) args) :) 14:31:02 |3b|: possibly. :-) 14:31:21 |3b|: does any CL's actually do that? 14:31:29 <|3b|> (or macros in general, can't think of anything specific off hand though) 14:32:08 <|3b|> consider the spec was written a long time ago, and heavily influenced by the existing lisps that were written even longer ago 14:33:01 yeah, I suppose 14:33:25 It's just a bizarre thing to support, given that (#'+ 1 2) isn't supported 14:33:27 *|3b|* supposes it could slightly simplify a macro that had separate lists of args and values to bind 14:33:53 -!- deech [~user@71-81-145-18.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:35:16 jjong [~user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 14:35:56 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:36:07 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 14:36:16 it was done for compatibility with some lisp that allowed such behaviour 14:38:35 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:38:55 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.58.180.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:40:08 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:27 mark__ [~markskilb@host81-152-187-166.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:21 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:45:50 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host217-43-220-228.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:50 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host217-43-220-228.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:45:50 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 14:47:18 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:27 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host81-152-187-166.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:48:20 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host12-35-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48:50 -!- algorist_ [~quassel@host12-35-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:38 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.196.174.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:49:39 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:49:59 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:59 Thanks p_l|backup 14:50:17 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:50:28 algorist [~quassel@host12-35-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:51:14 loke: One needs to remember that CL is a result of converging and updating several lisps, mainly related in some way to Maclisp, together :) 14:54:02 Posterdati [~tapioca@host12-35-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:55:08 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-2.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:47 -!- pigdude [~tallen@gateway1.atlantic-media.us] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:56:08 codelurker [~codelurke@c-24-91-16-174.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:24 fvw [~user@183.62.131.177] has joined #lisp 15:00:24 -!- TheRealLongshot [~longshot@180.184.25.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:01:59 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:02:39 -!- Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:03:43 TheRealLongshot [~longshot@207.204.232.138] has joined #lisp 15:04:08 p_l|backup: yeah, that I know. There certainly are things I'd change if I could redesign it, but then again, I'm not crazy enough to try to find shelter in Scheme. :-) 15:04:50 -!- jjong [~user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:05:27 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.196.174.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:08:01 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:52 chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 15:09:29 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:09:33 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:00 -!- fvw [~user@183.62.131.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:13:55 xan_ [~xan@75.16.26.133] has joined #lisp 15:14:07 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.165.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:15:46 -!- chiguire [~jstypo@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:16:17 -!- zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:17:14 greaver [~J@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:19:42 mark__ [~markskilb@host81-152-187-21.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:20:02 -!- fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-174-35.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:05 urandom_ [~user@84.138.55.104] has joined #lisp 15:21:22 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:21:46 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A57AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:22:22 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@e180075175.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110323131629]] 15:23:52 Blkt [~user@82.84.171.136] has joined #lisp 15:25:27 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:26:32 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 15:26:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 15:26:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:28:08 mheld_ [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:30:28 -!- mheld_ [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31:58 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 15:31:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 15:31:59 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:35:15 Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has joined #lisp 15:35:19 -!- drdo [~user@93.108.205.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@75.16.26.133] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:36:31 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:15 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:38:28 trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-131-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:38 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:25 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-193-133.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:42:28 -!- trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-131-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:20 is there something in slime to generate a function stub from a call signature ie. (my-fun param1 param2) => (defun my-fun (param1 param2)) 15:43:23 MoALTz [~no@92.8.149.190] has joined #lisp 15:43:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 15:43:37 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003d04.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:47 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:45:15 Guthur: this is lisp. 15:45:55 pjb, You need to invent all the tools yourself? 15:45:57 hehe 15:46:29 This is fucking trivial to write them! You could have written this emacs command in less character than what you've typed in #lisp about it! 15:47:24 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:00 but to be truthful, it is not trivial if one is not familiar with emacs commands 15:49:20 step 1: learn elisp, step 2: fucking trivial commands 15:50:06 A barrier to elisp is choking down the Emacs interaction model. Viper isn't good enough to make me happy. 15:50:18 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:51:05 I love what Emacs does, but not how it does it. 15:51:07 but is such functionality outside the remit of SLIME or something 15:51:23 <|3b|> might look in redshank mode 15:52:02 it's a very common code generation technique available in most reasonable sophisticate development environments 15:52:18 |3b|, yep, i was thinking redshank might 15:52:32 If you can't write emacs lisp code, then do it in Common Lisp, it's as fucking trivial! 15:52:34 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host81-152-187-21.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53:52 TeMPOraL [~user@46.205.126.188.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:53:58 pigdude [~tallen@gateway1.atlantic-media.us] has joined #lisp 15:54:04 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html ... 15:54:04 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:54:14 do i need this lame-sounding "lisp in a box" to use this book? 15:54:16 Pascal, hi. 15:54:26 Hi! 15:54:35 <-- Mason, ILC 2009, played Magic 15:54:43 anything that sounds one-size-fits-all-for-noob i am a bit unfriendly to 15:55:04 <|3b|> pigdude: no, it is just a packaged emacs+slime+lisp 15:55:07 and why would anybody choose "lisp in a box"? 15:55:18 <|3b|> pigdude: you probably wanted newer versions of all those things anyway 15:55:22 |3b|: so it is for people who don't know how to install software 15:55:23 pigdude, because sometime people have difficulty setting it up 15:55:29 pigdude, especially on windows 15:55:32 ah, ok 15:55:38 Wait, I think I have the wrong Pascal...? 15:55:39 i can see that for windows 15:55:41 <|3b|> more or less, yes... that includes a lot fo people 15:55:43 thanks guys 15:56:02 trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-131-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:04 Sorry, was thinking Costanza. 15:56:12 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has joined #lisp 15:56:20 np 15:58:38 <|3b|> Guthur: slime has a command (C-c C-y) to do the opposite (put a call to the current defun onto repl), not that that helps :p 15:59:03 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-98-246.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:11 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-231-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:59:13 |3b|, hehe nope, but it's the thought that counts 15:59:41 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@64.134.189.76] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 16:01:24 Bike [~arm@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 16:02:03 how can I know where should I use progn? most of functions/macros look like already have implicit progn.. 16:02:55 bsod1: when they don't. 16:03:04 bsod1: use CLHS to know whether they do. 16:04:09 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:06:15 joe999 [~root@cpe-24-93-172-250.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:45 sbcl compile-file is creating fasl with shebang line, that it than cant load until I remove it. how to stop? 16:07:09 binary_crayon [~binary_cr@128.233.109.155] has joined #lisp 16:08:52 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@c-24-91-16-174.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 16:09:12 xan_ [~xan@75.16.26.133] has joined #lisp 16:09:32 <|3b|> joe999: supposed to be there as far as i know 16:09:50 <|3b|> joe999: how does it fail to load? 16:09:53 joe999: what's the ereor? 16:09:55 *error 16:11:08 has a fasl file type, but no fasl header: Expected "# FASL", but got #(0 35 32 70 65 83) 16:11:27 I'm running sbcl from xterm instead of emacs 16:11:53 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host81-132-124-61.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:11:53 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host81-132-124-61.range81-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:11:53 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 16:12:27 SBCL 1.0.47 16:12:39 interesting 16:13:16 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:54 Patagous_ [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has joined #lisp 16:13:57 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 16:14:17 <|3b|> problem looks like that 0, not the #! 16:14:51 yeah, "# FASL" is *second* line of FASL header, the first being shebang 16:15:00 yes 16:15:04 *|3b|* wouldn't expect it to matter how you ran it 16:15:59 -!- Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:16:06 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:21 I removed the debian sbcl, deleted .slime and .cache and all .fasl's, than installed the sbcl download 16:17:14 <|3b|> it says "SBCL version 1.0.47" on 4th line of .fasl? 16:17:38 "using SBCL version 1.0.47" on mine 16:17:56 <|3b|> and the "compiled from.." on 3rd line looks reasonable? 16:18:06 using SBCL version 1.0.47 16:18:11 -!- Patagous_ [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:18:18 compiled from "/devel/t.lisp" 16:18:31 it has 2 spaces in front of 'compiled' 16:19:20 <|3b|> no other #\Nul in the first 4 lines if you look at it in a hex editor or whatever? 16:19:23 statonjr [~statonjr@208.255.163.234] has joined #lisp 16:20:26 Patagous [6d359b04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.53.155.4] has joined #lisp 16:20:35 second line: 16:20:47 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:20:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:21:40 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:10 I deleted the first ^@ and that worked 16:22:40 rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has joined #lisp 16:23:57 a program I was compiling required unlocking core sbcl packages, could that have changed something permanently? 16:24:28 c|mell [~cmell@89.122.215.158] has joined #lisp 16:24:44 I also had to change it's code to replace sb-unix:unix-file-kind with sb-impl::native-file-kind 16:24:54 Not unless you saved an image. 16:25:00 thanks 16:26:55 -!- naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.nbiserv.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 16:27:18 <|3b|> if you redefined something important, that could be bad 16:28:13 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2418E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:28:48 is there any way for that to last between restarts of sbcl? 16:29:32 Not unless you compiled it into a file and arranged for it to be reloaded, or you build a new image and configured it to load it. 16:29:36 <|3b|> sbcl itself shouldn't be affected unless you save a core, but any .fasls compiled could be affected 16:30:25 -!- paul0 [~user@187.58.226.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:58 -!- rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has quit [Quit:    ] 16:31:49 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:31:59 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 16:32:28 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:42 ok, I made a mistake somewhere, because trying the same thing on a different terminal is now working normally 16:32:42 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:33:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:33:50 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:33:52 the error only occurs now when I load certain code or fasl's 16:34:10 -!- greaver [~J@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:34:43 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:35:18 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:36:32 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:30 kjellkt [~kkgt@223.81-167-109.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:37 -!- alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has quit [Quit: alama] 16:39:57 -!- rmarianski is now known as rmarianski|brb 16:41:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:42:02 morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has joined #lisp 16:44:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:46:40 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.97.176] has joined #lisp 16:48:27 joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has joined #lisp 16:49:19 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-135-2.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:49:19 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 16:51:34 mark__ [~markskilb@host217-43-219-126.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:47 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:54:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:54:54 -!- rmarianski|brb is now known as rmarianski 16:56:02 Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:58 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-248-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:00 danishman [~kvirc@0x573a5c37.ngnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:01:57 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:05:31 -!- binary_crayon [~binary_cr@128.233.109.155] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:43 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:08:23 ehu [~ehuels@87.212.64.118] has joined #lisp 17:08:27 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:10:32 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 17:10:32 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 17:10:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:10:45 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0052.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 17:12:25 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:45 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:13:58 -!- danishman [~kvirc@0x573a5c37.ngnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has left #lisp 17:18:02 hi lisper 17:18:40 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:19:01 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003d04.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:32 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 17:21:11 arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 17:21:37 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@87.212.64.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:04 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:23:01 naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.nbiserv.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:20 gglitch [~user@216-80-93-163.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:53 schoppen1auer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:28:28 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0052.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:28:55 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:29:11 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:38 Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:10 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:03 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:34:25 *p_l|backup* ponders Dijkstranism as systematic illness of academia CS (and not only CS) 17:34:55 What does that mean? 17:35:08 is vector and array same thing? 17:35:11 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:35:23 Bike: being perfectly happy with theoretical work, but discounting implmentation 17:35:40 bsod1: a vector is a specific type of array 17:35:53 ah right. 17:40:05 -!- urandom_ [~user@84.138.55.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:41:40 p_l|backup: calling it an illness might be a bit strong. Sometimes you need the people to think the theoretical thoughts, so that in 10 years time people implementing stuff have ideas to refer to 17:44:36 -!- c|mell [~cmell@89.122.215.158] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:45:49 -!- Patagous [6d359b04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.53.155.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:46:32 p_l|backup: you mean, the lack of Dijkstranism? 17:47:28 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.97.176] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:47:53 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:48:32 agumonkey [agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:15 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:50:14 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.210.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:50:15 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:50:26 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-184-173.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:51:15 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:08 BountyX [~erhan@137.148.247.160] has joined #lisp 17:57:23 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:15 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.171] has joined #lisp 17:59:43 is "CL-USER>" a prompt for a particular lisp implementation's REPL, or is this something specific to SLIME? If i start SBCL, I see the prompt "*" 18:00:52 pigdude: yes. 18:00:55 pigdude: Specific to slime, you cat get a nice prompt in sbcl if you use linedit too (like CL-USER(1)). 18:01:02 pigdude: the exact appearance of the repl prompt is not specified. slime's looks like > 18:01:02 ah, i see 18:01:10 i guess i should be using SLIME 18:01:15 slime is pretty sweet. 18:01:24 emacs hurts my fingers :) 18:01:41 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:44 but slimv seems like it will be incomplete, so i think i must bite the bullet 18:01:58 Ooh, linedit looks neat... 18:04:16 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.38.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:04:40 Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121590  an example .sbclrc snippet for running linedit. 18:05:14 Bike: you could then define "sbcl --no-linedit" in emacs so that linedit will not interfere with slime. 18:05:27 pigdude:  18:05:49 oh wow sbcl has its own rc :^) 18:05:51 thanks antoszka 18:06:06 and nice up arrow 18:06:07 Yeah, that's on linedit's c-l page. 18:06:24 Probably :) 18:06:33 Why's it use intern like that? 18:07:16 c|mell [~cmell@89.122.215.158] has joined #lisp 18:07:42 -!- Onyxyte [~Onyxyte@r75-110-112-109.rmntcmtc02.rcmtnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 18:09:14 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-97-176.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:07 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:30 Bike: the entire form must be read before it's evaluated, so you can't reference symbols that are created from some part of the form's evaluation 18:12:31 Bike: because the reader won't find symbols in the LINEDIT package when the rc file is loaded 18:12:46 Krystof: that's not it - what I referred is the case where the actual practice is considered "lesser" than theoretical musings 18:12:56 Huh. Thanks. 18:13:09 Simpler example: (progn (load-foo-package) (foo:bar)) 18:13:18 p_l|backup: Reminds me of http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/dec/essay.criticize.html 18:14:09 -!- trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-131-159.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:14:55 Bike: heh. The reason I referred to Dijsktra in the name was because of some quote I had once seen (and few essays about him), where he considered actual implementation to not be a part of CS at all, and a menial task etc. 18:15:39 Yeah, I read his article on reforming CS edu, he explictly said that computer programs are formulas too long for mathematicians to recognize them. 18:16:00 funnily, something similar happened in Poland regarding mechanical engineering, especially related to aviation. 18:16:58 the review board at some uni was rather shocked when the promotor of a PhD student reminded them, that you could get it for a specific construction, not just theoretical work 18:17:12 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:17:39 not to poke in any wounds, but I wonder if that sentiment is still as strong after the events of a year ago 18:17:55 antifuchs: ? 18:18:12 the plane crash i presume 18:18:15 the Tu-154 crash of april 10 18:18:19 That plane crash that killed a lot of the Polish gov? Yeah 18:18:30 being air-safety related and all 18:18:31 antifuchs: unrelated to academia 18:18:35 ok (: 18:19:07 antifuchs: though the aircraft accident investigation course in Warsaw Institute of Technology got a *huuge* attendance 18:19:18 otoh, my father was just that awesome of a lecturer ;-) 18:19:36 Well, certainly some bits of the final reports (Russian/Polish) will get into academia as new engineering knowledge. 18:19:50 antifuchs: not necessarily in engineering 18:20:07 p_l|backup: Why not? 18:20:08 neat (: 18:20:10 there's higher chance it will go into system analysis, sociology and psychology 18:20:24 Well, yeah, as well. [getting OT] 18:20:37 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl14-85-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 18:20:37 yeah 18:20:56 *p_l|backup* wouldn't mind working on some CL software for aviation, though... 18:21:11 Count me in (in a few years time). 18:21:16 let's hope that ITWL job will happen, and I manage to introduce CL there :D 18:22:07 afk 18:22:31 What's missing from slimv.vim? 18:22:52 emacs? 18:22:55 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:02 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B183.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:07 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B183.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:18 Other than that. 18:28:17 -!- Areil [~user@113.172.38.206] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:29:35 seangrov` [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:53 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@78.173.124.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:32:16 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:24 bsod1 [~sinan@88.244.231.1] has joined #lisp 18:34:11 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 18:35:37 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:36:17 -!- joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:37:11 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [] 18:37:25 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-248-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:37:29 paul0 [~user@187.58.226.149] has joined #lisp 18:38:40 davekong [~davekong@unaffiliated/davekong] has joined #lisp 18:39:56 How do I make it so that when someone calls the continue funtion a function I want to be called gets called (inside a macro)? 18:40:01 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010064.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:09 hi 18:41:19 alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has joined #lisp 18:41:28 How do I bind that function to the "applicable continue restart"? 18:41:57 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:44:19 -!- Landr [~user@178-116-225-100.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:15 sellout: I've customized the emacs solarized theme to be less monotone/garish in lisp mode (less green, better mix of colors) (: 18:45:30 what does one get for (loop for i from 1 to 10 do (let ((k (loop for m from 1 to 10 collect m))) (format t "~A, " k))) 18:45:30 ?? 18:45:58 still has mostly blue/cyan/grays, but it's much better to look at (I'm not a huge fan of solarized's green) 18:46:36 homie: have you tried it? 18:46:39 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-304.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 18:46:47 lots of well-intentioned pretty printing? (: 18:46:59 i get 3 (1...10) sequences and the third begins with (1 but is then split onto next line though no end of line is reached nor end of window or so 18:47:19 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:47:31 err i mean the fourth begins with (1 18:47:50 and after that all is in vertical display format 18:47:57 Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has joined #lisp 18:48:02 like a ladder 18:48:23 yes, pretty printing does that. 18:48:29 with *print-pretty* = nil 18:48:36 "how do i take newlines out of my list" 18:48:37 antifuchs: I'm open to pull-requests, but 1) I don't want to get into too-much mode-specific font-locking and 2) I want things to look very Ethan-y (but I don't think #2 is currently met). 18:48:40 on the top-level loop should turn it off (: 18:48:52 ah ok 18:49:16 sellout: yeah, I understand - I'll test out my change today, we'll see how it goes. 18:49:31 (but so far the general font-lock faces feel much better) 18:50:05 -!- BountyX [~erhan@137.148.247.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:51:31 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:11 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 18:52:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-184-173.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:54:21 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.184.173] has joined #lisp 18:55:16 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 18:55:36 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:58:26 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:59:07 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-193-133.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:22 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:02:40 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:03:25 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@46.205.126.188.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: (bbl)] 19:04:59 -!- c|mell [~cmell@89.122.215.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:05:04 Fullma [~fullma@82.66.69.246] has joined #lisp 19:05:30 binary_crayon [~binary_cr@pp002332dca816.usask.ca] has joined #lisp 19:07:31 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@208.255.163.234] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 19:09:40 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 19:09:46 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-40-153.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:10:15 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 19:10:53 pirxs [~pirx@195.225.69.9] has joined #lisp 19:12:37 -!- davekong [~davekong@unaffiliated/davekong] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 19:13:41 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.210.216] has joined #lisp 19:14:12 -!- morphism [~Nevermind@113.190.161.155] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:17:48 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:54 pnq [~nick@dubnium.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 19:20:01 sylecn [~sylecn@wireless-128-62-209-161.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 19:20:22 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has joined #lisp 19:20:31 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.149.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:20:44 -!- lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:17 Bronsa_ [~brace@host248-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:25:18 *cmm* is pretty satisfied with emacs solarized, for what it's worth 19:26:23 cmm: :) 19:26:23 then again, I'm a creature of (sometimes very quick-formed) habit 19:26:41 for instance, I *think* Emacs on Linux shows the sRGB colors just fine. 19:27:02 but I may think that because it happens to agree with how urxvt shows them 19:27:49 heh cool 19:28:12 perhaps there's a need for another customization variable (solarized-use-sRGB or something) 19:28:15 cmm: oddly enough, the people commenting on the bug report say that it doesn't 19:28:41 ooh, I'll go check it out and see the error of my ways, then 19:28:44 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0080.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:56 hehe 19:28:57 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:29:05 -!- pirxs [~pirx@195.225.69.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:04 -!- binary_crayon [~binary_cr@pp002332dca816.usask.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:54 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:56 HG` [~HG@p5DC057EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:01 well I wonder what "Standard X Emacs" means -- XEmacs, maybe? 19:34:00 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0080.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:34:27 hmmm, slime doesn't seem to want to indent my macro &bodies. I wonder what I changed that causes this. 19:34:40 anyway, there may well be some influence by the X visual settings, transparency doodads, desktop environment compositing gimmicks and whatnot 19:34:48 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:14 antifuchs: is your slime connected? 19:35:19 yes, it is! 19:35:32 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:35:40 the funcall arg hint even puts me in the &body arg 19:35:45 but it indents it as if it was &rest 19:36:22 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:26 stis [~stis@host-95-201-112-88.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:28 maybe there is an explicit 'lisp-indent-function property on the symbol? 19:37:16 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 19:37:17 -!- Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:37:42 symbol-plist is (slime-indent 1 common-lisp-indent-function 1) 19:38:00 -!- paul0 [~user@187.58.226.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:05 that's a macro that slime indented correctly before... (where "before" = an indefinite amount of weeks ago )-:) 19:38:25 paul0 [~user@187.58.226.149] has joined #lisp 19:39:19 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:10 and you did load slime-indentation.el, right? 19:40:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.184.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:41:05 just loaded it again - it indents the same 19:41:12 (but yeah, it was loaded before) 19:41:17 hmm, hmm. 19:41:38 ok, I got nothin' :/ 19:42:08 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 19:42:37 heh, thanks for walking me through anyway 19:42:52 I'm sure it's something stupid in my setup - will let you know when I fix it (: 19:43:15 gking here? 19:43:18 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:43:19 suppose not. 19:44:16 he hasn't been lurking here for a looong time (: 19:44:33 he reads his @franz email though (: 19:44:49 (it's gwking) 19:45:15 Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has joined #lisp 19:45:23 ok. well, I thought I needed him, regarding the cl-net move, but it seems I may not even break his account :-) 19:45:34 -!- mark__ is now known as markskilbeck 19:45:51 He's so cool, they call him Gary Style-Warn King 19:46:52 if anybody is having permission issues with pages served from cl-net: I changed the setup on old-cl-net which might cause that if the files don't have world-read unix perms. 19:47:02 please report to clo-devel 19:47:54 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@94.127.49.1] has quit [Quit: Davsebamse] 19:48:01 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:49:19 c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CE8A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:29 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 19:51:36 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 19:53:10 ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.12] has joined #lisp 19:53:23 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-15.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-15.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:54:47 -!- joker [~user@dslb-188-105-097-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55:26 -!- pnq [~nick@dubnium.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:56:16 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz] 19:56:36 pdlogan [~patrick@c-76-27-203-101.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:21 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-084-061-241-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 19:57:56 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:02:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-184-173.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:09:36 BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-235-29.csuohio.edu] has joined #lisp 20:10:56 sellout1 [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:12 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:09 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-164-129.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:17:14 kai__ [~kai@e179015108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:18 -!- kai__ is now known as wetnosed 20:17:35 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-171-181.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:21 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:03 So, if I'm trying to insert a (call-next-method) like definition into methods, I really need to define my own generic-function class, specialized make-method-lambda on that, and then specify it as the :generic-function-class in defgeneric, right? 20:20:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-15.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:22 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003d04.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:08 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host248-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:24:33 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B183.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:24:39 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B183.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:23 sellout1: depends on how c-n-m-like it is. I think define-method-combination might be good enough. 20:26:13 -!- schoppen1auer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:27:07 pkhuong: How do I make my function visible within the method without specializing make-method-lambda? 20:27:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-15.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:27:57 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:28:44 urandom_ [~user@p548A3F41.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:45 *sellout1* would love to avoid touching make-method-lambda. 20:29:13 -!- naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.nbiserv.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 20:30:14 has any one got aserve to work on sbcl lately? 20:30:46 the quickload version asks to unlock a package, and than stops with a fasl error 20:30:50 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@p5B2CE8A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:31:14 joe999: What version of sbcl do you use? 20:31:34 joe999: What does (ql-dist:enabled-dists) return? 20:31:40 SBCL 1.0.47 20:32:04 16:30 joe999: What does (ql-dist:enabled-dists) return? 20:32:10 (#) 20:32:10 20:32:35 joe999: I'm afraid I can't reproduce. I'm using that same stuff and it loads fine, no package lock warnings. Is there a chance there's a non-quicklisp library in the mix? 20:32:39 joe999: Can you paste the error you get? 20:32:51 Actually, I have to take off...I can peek later, or maybe someone else can chime in. 20:33:12 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC057EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:33:17 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host217-43-219-126.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:22 has a fasl file type, but no fasl header: Expected "# FASL", but got #(0 35 32 70 65 83). 20:33:36 thanks for the info Xach 20:33:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-184-173.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:48 udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:34:28 sellout1: you could try and work something out with d-m-c and dynamic binding. 20:34:33 taking cl-net down to sync the filesystems to the new server again. 20:34:43 last week's issue sholud be solved. 20:35:16 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 20:35:48 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:02 joe999: or some .sbclrc customisation. 20:37:15 pkhuong: I was just about to say that won't work, but I think I'm wrong :D Thanks. 20:37:38 of course, slowness and everything might ensue. 20:39:51 Landr [~user@78-21-48-126.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:40:25 pkhuong: Brilliant. It worked. 20:40:34 pkhuong: Performance isn't an issue here. 20:41:10 *sellout1* is really glad he didn't have to subclass standard-generic-function. 20:41:29 will you have to reimplement all sorts of methods? (before, after, around, etc/) 20:42:20 pkhuong: No, it only applies to one qualifier for my own method combination. 20:42:22 cmm: haha, I restarted slime a couple of times, and now it indents correctly. No idea what was going on though 20:43:01 gremlins 20:44:25 yes, the gods must be smiling on me 20:44:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-40-153.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:45:22 wetnosed_ [~kai@e177089044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:45:47 never fiddle with your emacs after midnight 20:46:06 I /was/ tempted to submerge it in water 20:46:20 well, that does increase your computer's cooling capacity 20:46:29 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:46:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-12-235.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:46:56 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:47:10 -!- wetnosed [~kai@e179015108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:41 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:00 agumonkey [agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:19 -!- ChibaPet [~mason@74.203.221.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54:29 MoALTz [~no@92.8.149.190] has joined #lisp 20:54:33 restarting the bots ... we're running cl-net on NFS to facilitate migration. 20:54:39 -!- Patagous [4e867828@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.134.120.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:55:32 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:56:13 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 20:58:52 earlier problem with quickload aserve now solved: removed old quicklisp achives and .cache/common-lisp/* 21:01:17 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:16 zmv [~daniel@c9533906.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 21:02:23 -!- Bronsa_ [~brace@host248-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:02:41 Bronsa [~brace@host248-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:03:06 steevy [~steevy@95-89-218-109-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:03:13 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-218-109-dynip.superkabel.de] has left #lisp 21:03:49 -!- pigdude [~tallen@gateway1.atlantic-media.us] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:04:41 -!- agumonkey [agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [] 21:07:05 joe999: odd 21:07:08 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:12 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 21:07:38 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:44 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:16 TeMPOraL [~user@178.180.96.240.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:09:46 c|mell [~cmell@86.122.168.58] has joined #lisp 21:09:53 -!- udzinari [~udzinari@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit:     ] 21:14:13 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:15:41 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:15:47 rvirding [~chatzilla@95.209.51.170.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 21:16:11 Triplefault [~caleb@adsl-145-219-162.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:38 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:56 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-15.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:28 hm, (sb-ext:gc :full t) won't always do a full GC? 21:25:06 ..either something random'ish really is happening here or this ":full t" thing means something else than i think it does 21:27:37 oh you get bitten by conservativity 21:27:47 *or 21:28:53 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 21:29:48 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:31:25 yeah 21:31:33 ..anyway to dodge that? 21:31:38 any way* 21:33:56 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-178-003-007-218.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:11 lnostdal: replace GC? 21:34:42 what do you mean, p_l|backup ? 21:34:51 or i've been thinking i should try CCL 21:35:05 ..but SBCL is nice in other ways... 21:35:57 -!- gglitch [~user@216-80-93-163.c3-0.grn-ubr1.chi-grn.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:34 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-168.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 21:37:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:38:26 -!- Triplefault [~caleb@adsl-145-219-162.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-168.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:37 lnostdal: change the GC algorithm used by SBCL, which mans rather significant work, I belive 21:40:12 yep 21:41:20 is there an existing function to test if a list is an alist? 21:42:20 paul0` [~user@187.58.226.149] has joined #lisp 21:42:48 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-4d010517.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:07 Harag: alexandria might have a type definition for it 21:43:16 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-4d010517.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:41 -!- paul0 [~user@187.58.226.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:43:45 antifuchs thanx 21:45:25 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010064.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:47:28 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-213-95.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:47:55 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:49:50 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:24 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.171] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:40 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.171] has joined #lisp 21:56:43 -!- paul0` [~user@187.58.226.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:44 -!- BountyX [~erhan@csu-137-148-235-29.csuohio.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:53 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-94-246.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:58 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:36 -!- c|mell [~cmell@86.122.168.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:02:04 c|mell [~cmell@86.122.168.58] has joined #lisp 22:04:35 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 22:06:00 rumina [~rumina@88-148-219-26.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:06:53 phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 22:07:22 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:10:05 -!- wetnosed_ [~kai@e177089044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:14:43 -!- stis [~stis@host-95-201-112-88.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:05 -!- Bike [~arm@69.166.35.237] has quit [Quit: where are monsters in dreams] 22:15:08 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:19:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:21:19 why does (length '(a . a)) give an error ... are all lists not sequences? (listp '(a . a)) returns true...? 22:21:50 Harag: LENGTH is defined to work only on proper lists. LISTP is not. 22:22:00 -!- alama [~alama@n138232.science.ru.nl] has quit [Quit: alama] 22:22:08 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.171.136] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:22:59 Blkt [~user@82.84.158.191] has joined #lisp 22:23:11 Xach: is a sequence then always a proper list? 22:24:19 ok found it 22:24:29 a sequence is always a proper list 22:25:58 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host248-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:26:30 well, no, a vector, which is a sequence, is not a proper list 22:27:02 -!- SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: SeanTAllen] 22:27:43 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:29:11 ok 22:30:43 well after all that I still cant figure out how to check if a list is an alist 22:31:19 why do you want to do that? 22:32:36 i have a list/tree that I want to parse and I want to make the leaf "node" an alist .... 22:32:56 was suppose to be a quick and dirty... 22:33:05 an assoc list? 22:33:22 SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:37 -!- SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:45 well what ever '(a . a) is 22:33:50 a cons 22:33:55 consp will tell you that 22:34:17 Harag: the problem is that any list of conses can be interpreted as an alist. if you're defining a tree with list structure where the leaves have detail it is better to have the leaves be (leaf foo...), ie marked with a distinct symbol 22:34:19 consp will also tell me that '(a a a a a) is t 22:34:38 Harag: that is a valid alist entry 22:34:41 thanx kpreid 22:34:52 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:34:54 well, since a list is a series of cons, that's true 22:35:02 i suppose you could do it recursively 22:35:59 if the cdr of a cons is not a cdr itself, it's a true cons™ 22:36:04 err, not a cons itself 22:36:37 (defun is-cons (x) (not (consp (cdr x)))) 22:36:57 thanx will try that 22:37:08 that's a pretty bad idea. 22:37:20 stick around, I'm full of bad ideas! 22:37:24 *Landr* shoots out an airlock 22:40:32 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:41:20 why is it a bad idea or should I ask what is a bad idea? 22:41:39 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:43 infinite lists. 22:42:03 Harag: well, answer me this: what are you using for *nonleaves* in this structure? 22:44:52 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:25 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:47 '( (1 . a) (2 . b) ((3 . c) (4 . d)) (5 .f)) 22:47:39 kpreid: the structure knows what a leaf is or a branch by position the cons is just so i can have key and value 22:48:48 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:48:53 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:18 -!- Blkt [~user@82.84.158.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:49:34 i will just replace the cons with a object and have done with it before I burn out what little brain matter I have 22:52:50 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:57:28 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:58:22 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@wireless-128-62-209-161.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 23:01:41 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:09:46 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:16:00 -!- Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:16:05 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:08 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-150-126.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:17:47 Bike [~arm_of_th@71-38-158-155.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:38 -!- seangrov` [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:24:14 cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:25:52 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:07 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@178.180.96.240.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:29:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 23:33:24 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@95.209.51.170.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp 23:36:49 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@88.244.231.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:47 pnq [~nick@AC81298B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:44 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:44:57 TeMPOraL [~user@46.204.75.230.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:45:06 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-56.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:45:16 -!- cheezus [~Adium@69-196-171-160.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:52:40 -!- zmv is now known as hehehe 23:52:53 -!- hehehe is now known as zmv 23:53:53 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:54:33 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@46.204.75.230.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:57:02 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.235] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die]