00:00:17 well does anybody know where else you can get slime-current.tgz ? 00:00:43 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 00:00:52 <|3b|> git clone git://sbcl.boinkor.net/slime.git ? 00:00:57 thx 00:01:43 <|3b|> at least, that's how i get slime, not completely sure it is the same as what would be in that tgz 00:03:02 Hrm. Okay, it didn't look like lisppaste was progressing in its little loading task, so I killed it... and the situation doesn't appear to have improved. 00:03:18 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:03:55 -!- xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:05:02 -!- wanderingelf [~matt@c-71-61-22-64.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:05:07 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:05:26 I think that Something Is Wrong, as some commands just seem to sit and wait... 00:05:35 <|3b|> network filesystem still there? 00:05:44 Yeah, that's what I'm beginning to wonder. 00:06:24 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:07:46 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:07:48 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 00:07:48 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:09:04 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 00:09:04 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 00:09:04 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 00:10:30 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.85.218] has joined #lisp 00:11:03 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 00:11:59 Okay, when even "echo *" doesn't work, -something- is wrong. 00:12:16 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:12:42 <|3b|> dmesg say anything useful? 00:13:09 I, ah, -did- mention that some commands didn't work, right? 00:13:21 I just screwed up my connection trying that. 00:13:29 So, no further information available. 00:13:33 <|3b|> ah :( 00:13:36 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@84.119.94.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:14:00 *nyef* disconnects from clnet. 00:16:09 *|3b|* wouldn't have expected that to be something easily breakable 00:16:54 Okay, I did "dmesg | tail", and given that I couldn't even use -cat-, something was up. 00:16:55 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:17:28 (And, yes, that was "cat /proc/mounts", to try and see if anything -wasn't- on NFS.) 00:17:53 <|3b|> well tail is in /usr/bin, which is at least sort of reasonable to remote mount... cat and dmesg are in /bin though, and if you don't have that... 00:18:57 can't you just reset the machine? 00:19:06 *|3b|* wouldn't be surprised if bash had builtin cat or tail though 00:19:32 it doesn't 00:20:11 so slime has been "3.0 alpha" for 5 years? 00:20:24 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 00:21:34 Mmm. Something about a "rolling release". I'll keep the dirty jokes that spring to mind to myself, but you'll probably think them up yourself anyway. 00:22:00 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:23:38 xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:57 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 00:28:24 got it 00:31:42 -!- jeti [~user@p548EB558.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 00:31:59 What, the reasoning, or the jokes? 00:38:38 |3b|: bash has. 00:40:58 pjb: my 4.1.5(1)-release doesn't 00:41:59 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:42:11 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:44:04 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:45 -!- gigamonkey [~user@99.24.219.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:45:16 the "reasoning" 00:45:27 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:47:15 cat maybe. In any case using an explicit path will tell. 00:48:18 $ type cat => cat is /bin/cat 00:48:27 $ type echo => echo is a shell builtin 00:48:51 I wonder what /bin/echo is for, then. 00:49:08 <|3b|> not everyone uses the same shell 00:49:22 <|3b|> and it is hard to run shell builtins from outside the shell 00:49:45 POSIX specifies echo as a utiltity, not a shell builtin 00:49:46 <|3b|> (similar to how you shouldn't use macros for inlining in CL since you can't funcall them) 00:49:59 Ah. 00:50:07 some shells have it built in as an optimisation 00:50:14 -!- bike is now known as Bike 00:50:49 <|3b|> builtins are also useful when the filesystem (or shared libs, etc) is dead, do not purely an optimization 00:50:55 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@209.119.73.178] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:51:09 yeah, but then you're into sash/busybox-static territory 00:51:37 kill built into many shells so you can kill stuff even if you've run out of processes 00:51:38 Anywhere, is there any kind of style guide for CL documentation, or should I just continue what I'm doing (aping CLHS)? 00:51:42 *anyway 00:51:43 joe999 [~root@cpe-24-93-172-228.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:54 *is built into 00:52:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.85.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:52:21 <|3b|> copying clhs or weitz.de stuff sounds like a good strategy 00:54:47 only these are required to be shell builtins: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/idx/sbi.html 00:57:15 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:00:31 and some of the utilities in 1c) here have to be builtin due to the UNIX process model: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/xcu_chap02.html#tag_02_09_01_01 01:00:38 Bike: Also examine AMOP, for good style, or the CLIM II specification for a disaster the scope of which I have yet to fully apprehend. 01:01:00 You mean the spec part of AMOP? 01:01:09 Yes. 01:01:15 Alright, will do. 01:01:19 Although the prose part of AMOP isn't bad, either. 01:01:45 (And the CLIM II disaster is more to do with content than style.) 01:01:47 Well no, but I think that an entire book would be overkill. :P 01:02:25 "There is no overkill. There is only ``open fire'' and ``I need to reload''." 01:02:27 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 01:02:57 Heh. I'll keep that in mind next time I'm shooting at source code. 01:02:58 reminds me of "XML is like violence. If it's not working, that means you need to use more." 01:03:19 JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has joined #lisp 01:03:38 ... and then there's the "senseless violins" thing... 01:04:30 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:04:39 *ilmari* is reminded of an erik naggum quote about xml vs. sexps 01:04:50 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:06:17 hm, no, it was daniel pittman 01:06:46 Every time I read up about the next XML "solution" it feels like someone just missed the point of the Lisp syntax, S expressions, and tried to achieve the same results by sticking a salad fork in their brain, swirling for a while, then recording the results. --Daniel Pittman 01:07:05 could have been naggum, though 01:09:04 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:09:44 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.245.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:16:08 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:23:58 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:25:55 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Client Quit] 01:26:06 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 01:27:17 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:27 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:27:29 -!- orivej_ is now known as orivej 01:28:16 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:05 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 01:33:17 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:35:51 mephisto [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 01:37:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has quit [Quit: Offline] 01:40:40 -!- mephisto [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:05 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:41 ASau [~user@93-80-248-41.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 01:56:46 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:00:06 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:04:21 cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-2-233.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:24 -!- erk_ [~MrEd@BZ.BZFLAG.BZ] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:06:55 Lectus [~chatzilla@189.104.250.44] has joined #lisp 02:07:35 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 02:10:34 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-2-233.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 02:12:17 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:28 -!- christop1_debian [~christoph@DSL01.212.114.250.149.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:12:50 -!- jweiss [~user@69.134.63.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:13:04 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:14:25 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 02:17:10 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:19:50 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@96.250.215.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:19:57 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:20:14 kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 02:21:17 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 02:21:28 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 02:22:18 ilmari: Yes it does: ( set < input > output ; while read line ; do printf "%s\n" "$line" ; done ) 02:24:56 s/set// 02:26:13 I even have a smtp server as a bash oneliner ;-) 02:26:17 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:17 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@98.234.186.226] has joined #lisp 02:28:32 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 02:30:07 ... wow. Computer manufacturers know exactly how to write hardware specifications that utterly fail to provide the information required to make any good decisions. 02:30:25 Nevermind the overall dimensions, how deep is the hard drive bay? 02:30:44 Having a 47WHr battery is one thing, but what's the baseline power consumption? 02:31:34 2GB of RAM over two DIMMs as a default is tolerable, but what's the maximum for an upgrade? 02:33:43 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:33:55 <|3b|> 1GB max, one of the default ones is just tapped to the heat sink 02:34:05 <|3b|> *taped 02:35:08 pjb: interesting spelling of "cat" you have there :-P how do you spell "dog"? 02:35:10 Heh. Reminds me of my current XP machine. 2GB max, but you have to remove the keyboard in order to get at one of the slots that ships with a 256k. 02:35:52 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 02:36:00 (The other slot was behind an obvious-looking panel on the underside.) 02:36:22 256 _k_? 02:37:43 Err... Meg. 256Meg. 02:37:46 Good catch. 02:37:57 <|3b|> 256k quarter-pages? 02:38:39 Either way, a stupidly-low amount of RAM to have to remove something like five screws, a top-cover plate, and the keyboard in order to get at. 02:38:46 gko [~gko@111.81.32.53] has joined #lisp 02:39:21 <|3b|> reminds me of that song about trying to blow dust out of the cpu fan :p 02:39:36 Once I bought a digital camera that came with a 16MB flash card. I used it for a month or so before buying a larger card, which is when I discovered that it had 48MB built-in, which was only usable when no card was plugged in. 02:40:25 The mind boggles. 02:41:54 -!- pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:42:01 so who is ehu, how does he come to own cl.net? 02:42:34 <|3b|> he doesn't own it, just one of the maintainers 02:43:19 <|3b|> tech.coop sponsors it, owns the domain, runs the service(s) 02:44:17 <|3b|> ehu is (if i remember right) an abcl dev among other things 02:44:56 perhaps I mistake that common-lisp.net has no mirrors or functional duplicates 02:45:13 *rough content duplicates 02:45:23 -!- italic [~italic@cpe-67-242-144-94.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:46:53 <|3b|> yeah, CL doesn't quite get the corporate support some languages do :( 02:48:29 well this is the fat ass lisp, so you'd expect something like this here more than scheme say. Lisp isn't judged by the standards of the corporate langs. 02:48:54 ilmari: in CL, the name of anonymous functions is the lambda expression: (function funame) (funname 42) (function (lambda (x) (* x x))) ((lambda (x) (* x x)) 42) 02:49:26 ddp [~ddp@58.137.63.55] has joined #lisp 02:49:36 -!- ddp [~ddp@58.137.63.55] has left #lisp 02:50:55 falisp. Mmm. 02:51:33 *|3b|* still fails to find anywhere in the spec that accepts lambda expressions as 'name' of a function 02:51:52 *|3b|* used to think it was one though, don't know why now 02:52:18 ddp [~ddp@58.137.63.55] has joined #lisp 02:52:45 -!- ddp [~ddp@58.137.63.55] has left #lisp 02:52:58 FWIW, I remember lambdas being function names, too. 02:53:46 <|3b|> FUNCTION takes a function name or lambda expression, and glossary only counts symbols and (setf foo) as function names 02:53:59 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:35 Yeah, looks like lambda expressions are disjoint from function names. 02:54:39 hm, one page says «A lambda expression is a list that can be used in place of a function name in certain contexts to denote a function by directly describing its behavior rather than indirectly by referring to the name of an established function.» 02:54:46 <|3b|> (but then glossary for NAME doesn't seem to allow lists as names) 02:55:40 ddp [~ddp@58.137.63.55] has joined #lisp 02:55:43 of course, in a lisp-1 you don't have that dichotomy 02:55:50 |3b|: CLHS doesn't say it, but since it quacks like a name and it weights like a name, so it must be a witch. 02:55:57 -!- ddp [~ddp@58.137.63.55] has quit [Client Quit] 02:56:27 |3b|: It does under case 3. 02:56:41 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-231-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:42 I guess they didn't want to reach the conclusion that Anonymous functions were their own Names. 02:57:12 ilmari: the funny thing is that in a lisp-1, functions never have names. 02:57:20 ddp [~ddp@58.137.63.55] has joined #lisp 02:57:35 where's specbot? 02:57:36 # is a implementation specific debugging trick. 02:57:40 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:57:59 pjb: yeah, they're just bound to variables, just like any other value 02:58:02 Ugh. Except that function name, case 1, specifically invokes environments, and environment, case 1, invokes bindings, which limits name to case 1. 02:58:07 xale: also, it's not with that kind of liveliness that AI will have any chance of proporing... 02:58:16 <|3b|> nyef: of 'name'? i guess that says a list can be a function's name, even if it can't be a name on its own :) 03:00:04 italic [~italic@cpe-67-242-144-94.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:45 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has joined #lisp 03:02:29 See 'function designator'. 03:03:05 makks_ [~max@p5790F859.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:16 -!- makks [~max@p5DE8C75F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:04:49 *|3b|* wonders what (fmakunbound '(lambda ...)) would do if lambda expressions were function names 03:06:11 -!- xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:06:14 -!- ddp [~ddp@58.137.63.55] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:07:13 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A7091.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:07:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:08:16 xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:25 how can you test if a class inherits from another class? 03:09:51 <|3b|> subtypep? 03:10:40 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.32.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:12:40 yes. so if i want to test if a object inherits id use CLASS-OF then subtypep 03:13:00 ddp [~ddp@58.137.63.55] has joined #lisp 03:13:13 -!- ddp [~ddp@58.137.63.55] has left #lisp 03:13:21 <|3b|> isn't (typep object 'possible-superclass) enough? 03:14:32 Should be, yes. 03:14:49 ugh, yes. i thought i tried that 03:16:04 Jasko [~tjasko@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:32 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:17:09 *|3b|* wonders if this worrying about classes is a sign of thinking about something wrong, doesn't seem like something i need to care about directly very often, usually just let defmethod deal with it 03:18:14 it's probably true. i find myself thinking more about objects than functions 03:18:42 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has joined #lisp 03:18:55 but methods being functions that specialize on certain objects 03:19:10 yeah, breaking the "mainstream" OO thought of "Object = data + behavior encapsulated" is needed for lisp multimethods 03:20:15 and really, in any C++/Java style OO project that gets large, that tying of behavior to a specific data class becomes a real nuisance 03:20:54 italic: Classes have corresponding types, so subtypep is reasonable. 03:21:18 italic: But why do you want to test if a class inherits from another class? 03:21:23 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:53 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:22:05 Zhivago: i have a scene-graph, so i want to make sure an object inherits from my node class 03:22:13 italic: WHy? 03:22:15 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@24.59.205.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:22:24 italic: That sounds completely stupid. 03:22:46 <|3b|> yeah, for that just think about it in terms of a protocol things need to respond to to be in the scenegraph 03:23:00 <|3b|> where 'protocol' = a set of generic functions 03:23:47 <|3b|> if a given object can tell you its bounds, render itself, etc it shouldn't matter what actual class it is 03:23:56 italic: If you want to help the user avoid putting garbage in there, add a 'scene-graph-node-p' protocol. 03:24:20 which would ultimately just test if it's a node right? 03:24:26 No. 03:24:54 _by default_, yes. But you can other scene-graph-node-p methods as well 03:25:01 It would test to see if someone had added a method for that object that returned non nill. 03:25:27 So it would be a kind of assertion that this object speaks that protocol. 03:25:40 Independent of any particular implementation. 03:25:55 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:25:59 so just check slots? 03:26:04 No, you moron ... 03:26:11 <|3b|> no, call generic functions 03:26:20 (defmethod scene-graph-node-p (object) nil) 03:26:35 (defmethod scene-graph-node-p ((object xyz)) t) 03:26:38 <|3b|> implementation of the methods on those functions is completely irrelevant to the calling code 03:27:36 ah, so i dont need to check anything, just say it's so 03:28:01 <|3b|> you could for example put the symbol :foo in the scene graph, and set up EQL specialized methods to draw something specific 03:28:10 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-136-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:28:29 <|3b|> the method dispatch does all the 'check'ing 03:29:55 but in the above example, wouldn't i have to define that method for every potential object? 03:30:04 No. 03:30:14 Methods specialize upon classes ... 03:30:18 (mostly) 03:30:21 <|3b|> every class hierachy 03:30:35 so the one that returns nil, above, would be the default 03:30:47 <|3b|> right 03:31:03 <|3b|> it is 'specialized' on the type T which is a supertype of overything 03:31:08 <|3b|> *everything 03:31:11 s/type/class/ 03:31:21 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-95-189.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:31:22 <|3b|> that too 03:31:24 You need to avoid mixing those up here. 03:31:27 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:31:30 <|3b|> right 03:31:31 Methods don't specialize on types. 03:35:44 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 03:36:42 -!- shachaf [~shachaf@208.69.183.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:37:22 <|3b|> once you have a clearly defined protocol of generic functions required for putting things in the scene graph, you might find having a separate 'scene-graph-node' class becomes less important, since it is just a convenient way to get default behavior for those generic functions 03:37:43 shachaf [~shachaf@208.69.183.87] has joined #lisp 03:38:55 at the risk of getting lambasted, would you guys look over my style: https://gist.github.com/926774 03:38:57 <|3b|> or it can be more of a 'mixin' class that you add closer to the leaves in the class hierarchy rather than trying to make a superclass everything inherits from 03:39:58 Why not just use the default reader/writers? 03:39:59 *|3b|* probably wouldn't CHECK-TYPE so much 03:40:41 since it's a library, i wanted to give type errors if a user supplied the wrong one 03:40:44 (or %id (to-string point)) might be simpler than that if. 03:41:48 *|3b|* prefers testing against %id directly rather than (null %id), but some people disagree 03:42:22 I'd suggest point= be boolean, and let callers worry about every, etc. 03:42:30 tritchey [~tritchey@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:31 &rest can be expensive. 03:42:45 so just take the 2 args 03:43:37 Or define the full version in terms of a two-arg version, and introduce a compiler macro to optimize the common case. 03:43:40 Also, I'd suggest writing a constructor function to avoid all of the make-instance repetition. 03:43:55 Although you can't really do that with methods the same way you can with functions. 03:44:30 <|3b|> and if you are going to check-type everywhere, you probably didn't mean NUMBER there 03:44:45 real? 03:45:01 <|3b|> 2d points with complex coordinates makes my brain hurt 03:45:46 *|3b|* would use SINGLE-FLOAT since i usually want speed for that sort of thing, but REAL is probably what you meant 03:46:05 2d points with complex coordinates are 4d. 03:46:07 *|3b|* probably wouldn't have used a class for the same reason though 03:47:18 wouldn't have made a point class? 03:47:24 <|3b|> nyef: are all 4 dimensions orthogonal though? 03:47:49 <|3b|> does rotating around yi affect x or just yr? 03:48:11 I'm too tired to even try to work that one out. 03:48:12 <|3b|> italic: yeah, i tend to use specialized arrays (or maybe complex numbers for 2d) 03:48:47 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:48:59 so the point methods you'd just make regular functions and check types? 03:49:13 Specialized arrays of complex numbers? 03:49:40 <|3b|> and then probably inline the functions so the type checks could be elided, yes 03:51:03 <|3b|> and if i were nikodemus, do a bunch of magic to make it look like things were allocating new results without actually allocating stuff everywhere, and do SSE stuff 03:51:24 *|3b|* isn't though, so just uses sb-cga where nikodemus already did that stuff 03:51:35 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cqimyhamokuewonk] has joined #lisp 03:52:24 maybe one day for me, in the meantime i'm just trying to figure out how to organize a package 03:53:29 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:52 <|3b|> (- %x 0) seems a bit odd 03:55:00 <|3b|> and for something with that many check-types, i might expect normalize to make sure length isn't 0 before dividing 03:55:33 <|3b|> and you can check for a specific range of numbers with check-type rather than using a separate assert 03:56:52 <|3b|> (check-type pos (real 0 1)) for example 03:57:04 that's handy 03:57:33 <|3b|> also, <= accepts more than 2 numbers, so you could have done (<= 0 pos 1) in the assert 03:58:07 *|3b|* might also allow pos outside that range, so you could extrapolate if you wanted to 03:58:38 true 03:59:35 <|3b|> and you might want = instead of eql for comparing things you know are numbers 04:00:15 And if you're comparing floats with =, please be aware of precisely how it can go "wrong". 04:00:23 <|3b|> compare (eql 0.0 0) and (= 0.0 0) for example, or 0.0 and -0.0 if supported 04:01:00 bah! 04:03:02 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:18 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:03:37 <|3b|> might also be better to only calculate point-length once in NORMALIZE, particularly since you modify one of the coordinates before the second call :p 04:04:34 whoops 04:04:35 *|3b|* would have expected normalize to always produce a vector of length 1 rather than requiring a length 04:05:45 yeah, that one is a port from actionscript3, probably get rid of it 04:05:51 -!- Lectus [~chatzilla@189.104.250.44] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756]] 04:05:56 <|3b|> (particularly one named 'thickness', i expect that would have been confusing to see in the arglist display in slime) 04:05:56 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:02 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-211.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:20 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:07:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:07:52 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 04:07:52 -!- xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:08:22 <|3b|> having it as an optional, better-named argument might not be too bad, but not really something i'd go looking for if it wasn't there... but that does suggest that a multiply-by-scalar op is missing 04:09:20 <|3b|> not sure why X and Y are &key arguments in COMPOSE (also not a name i would have chosen), since they are required 04:10:07 clarity? 04:10:43 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-135-167.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:10:52 <|3b|> if you want to type :x and :y, at least put in defaults so people who just see &key and assume they are optional don't break things 04:11:38 *|3b|* isn't sure 2 args with an obvious canonical order really needs keywords though 04:11:49 i'm getting rid of &key, you don't like the name 'compose'? set-point better? 04:12:05 *|3b|* would probably just call it move-to or something 04:13:54 <|3b|> did someone already say to-string sounds like it should return a string, not print stuff to *standard0output*? 04:14:43 whoops 04:15:18 how expensive are all these check-types? 04:16:02 <|3b|> hard to say, relative to the rest, which isn't really written for speed anyway :) 04:16:23 fair enough 04:16:53 how about, maximized for learning 04:17:59 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:37 but let's say i wanted to help out my "production" version, i'd remove the check-types and add some declares? 04:19:03 <|3b|> like i said before, i'd be trying to avoid check-type in fast code, but i also would have avoided the class and generic function dispatch as well 04:19:19 <|3b|> in sbcl with default settings, declarations are effectively check-types anyway :) 04:19:47 <|3b|> (declaring types that is) 04:20:14 so declaring in sbcl will throw type errors? 04:20:29 <|3b|> and conversely, check-type should be as good as declaring the type, since it does type propagation 04:21:14 <|3b|> (optimization strategies for other implementations will of course vary) 04:21:14 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:21:38 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:22:10 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:23:52 <|3b|> switching from REAL to SINGLE-FLOAT or DOUBLE-FLOAT would probably be my first optimization 04:24:04 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 04:24:16 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:25:01 <|3b|> since REAL includes lots of types, operations on them probably aren't particularly optimized... at the least it needs to figure out which types of numbers are being used, so more checking of types 04:25:33 It's a matter of dead-code elimination, mostly. 04:25:35 <|3b|> but if you limit it to something specific and hardware friendly like single-float, it might just need an opcode or 2 04:26:06 is the %slotname a pretty standard naming convention? 04:26:49 <|3b|> you might want to add some calls to FLOAT or COERCE though, so people can pass integers without errors, depending on how you weight speed vs convenience 04:27:06 <|3b|> %slot isn't uncommon 04:27:09 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 04:27:16 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 04:27:16 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:27:37 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:27:55 *|3b|* usually doesn't bother with it, but it is reasonable in a case like this where you have extra constraints on values stored in those slots, which are being enforced by accessors 04:28:50 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.134.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:29:15 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-185-174.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:45 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-18-71.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:46 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8165A0.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:32:10 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-54-64.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:32:40 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:45 cool. thanks for looking over it! 04:33:04 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 04:34:33 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has joined #lisp 04:36:22 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-fcnuuwmihqoyeefo] has joined #lisp 04:38:03 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.241.252] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:39:49 how can I treat a list as a linked list? i want to be able to take list a and b, append a to b, and later unlink b -> a (preserving the rest of a) 04:40:27 if i set the position of a in b to nil would that do it? 04:40:48 nm. no that won't 04:40:58 i need access to the cons at the position of a in b 04:42:29 Perhaps you want NTHCDR or LAST 04:43:24 -!- italic [~italic@cpe-67-242-144-94.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:43:57 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:45:25 Is there any way to get the full class hierarchy of an object? 04:45:25 -!- Patagous [970fd7b2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.15.215.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:45:50 if I have a = (3, 5, 7) and b = (8, 2, 4) i want to be able to make b = (8, 2, 4, 3, 5 ,7) (a spliced into b), but later unsplice it back out--but it must be the same entity so that if I append to a it shows up in b 04:46:08 perhaps a list is not the data structure I want 04:48:00 A linked list sounds like what you want 04:48:21 yes, a linked list, but not sure how to do that in lisp yet 04:48:44 i know underneath a lisp list is basically a linked list of cons cells, but i haven't learned how to manipulate them yet 04:49:17 You can manipulate the car and cdr of a cons cell with setf, such as (setf (cdr foo) bar) 04:49:39 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-231-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:41 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:50:50 Maybe now would be a good time to read a lisp book. 04:50:57 lol. 04:51:10 i've got *four* open atm 04:51:40 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-231-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:41 Closing three and working through exercises in the last one might be a better approach. 04:53:09 Why do you want to do that persistent splicing, anyway? 04:53:32 i'm trying to implement a solution to acm 101 04:53:35 Ah, also see nconc ... 04:53:58 http://uva.onlinejudge.org/external/1/101.html 04:54:38 Why do you want destructive modification for that? 04:55:03 because i want to be able to move them around 04:55:06 Think of each block as being equivalent to a push-down stack. 04:55:14 That doesn't follow. 04:55:31 what i want is an array of blocks, where each block is a node in a linked list 04:55:43 Why? 04:55:52 thus the array is always the head of each block and whatever is on top o fit 04:55:55 You could just have a set of positions, each one of which is a list, and push numbers onto the lists to represent where blocks are stacked. 04:56:17 so if I put a on b, the c on a, the array is [ a --> c, b -> a -> c, c ] 04:56:25 You'd need multiple links for each block; one for whatever is on top of it, and one for whichever block is next. 04:56:27 What you really want to know is what blocks are under a given block. 04:56:57 then if I have to pile a over d, i simply take a off of b (break the b-> a link, and add a to the end of the d list 04:57:10 a on b, c on a, should end up with 'c' -> 'a' -> 'b'. 04:57:47 Just use append and assign the result. 04:57:48 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:57:56 -!- joe999 [~root@cpe-24-93-172-228.neo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:58:20 Or just use a purely constructive form, based on alists or something. 04:59:02 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@89.129.116.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:12 Try to avoid making things too complex -- I'd start with the purely constructive form. 05:00:29 Hunden [~Hunden@85.180.100.53] has joined #lisp 05:00:33 e.g., push a on b can be implemented with (push (cons 'a (assoc *world* 'b) *world*) (push (cons 'b nil) *world*). 05:00:47 Hundenn [~Hunden@e180100053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:01:01 Then you can see the whole history of the world in *world*. 05:01:21 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 05:01:41 As a rule of thumb -- first be constructive, then think about a destructive form if necessary. 05:03:27 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:04:32 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:05:17 You might want slightly more clever indexing than that. 05:05:46 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:06:01 Jasko [~tjasko@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:13 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 05:06:13 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 05:06:13 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 05:09:19 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:17:51 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:19:37 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 05:21:00 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:21:04 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:21:08 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 05:21:13 i already solved it in C++, and was hoping there'd be an easy analog 05:21:32 Writing C++ in lisp is probably a mistake. 05:22:38 well, many of these problems are easily solved by manipulating data structures. perhaps they are the wrong problems to solve to help me learn lisp 05:23:46 xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:13 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:31 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has joined #lisp 05:25:16 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:26:03 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:26:05 Try a constructive solution. 05:26:15 That is -- no modification of existing data structures. 05:26:35 yes, i know how to do that, but that is algorithmically slow 05:28:13 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 05:28:58 Why? 05:29:13 Jasko [~tjasko@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:31 because i have to rebuild lists rather than simply rearrange the existing ones 05:34:35 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.120.92] has joined #lisp 05:35:31 mcox [~user@140.253.50.42] has joined #lisp 05:35:59 Is common-lisp.net down for maintenance? 05:36:38 <|3b|> mcox: more or less 05:36:49 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 05:36:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 05:36:50 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:37:06 ok.. cheers. Just checking to see if someone knew about it. 05:37:38 <|3b|> 'unexpected side effects of maintenance' is my understanding, dunno if anyone who can do something about it knows 05:38:49 mcox: common-lisp.net doesn't have any HA procedures, so maintenance as big as the one happening now is near-equivalent to downtime 05:39:12 (no one has time and energy to make it super-reliable, I guess) 05:40:20 what's it hosted on? 05:40:30 on tech.coop's Xen farm 05:40:37 p_l|backup: no problems. 05:41:39 *p_l|backup* hopes we get enough people to takeover ALU and then maybe sponsor enough for making the infrastructure better 05:41:53 ALU? 05:42:59 bsod1 [~sinan@88.240.131.58] has joined #lisp 05:43:01 association of lisp users 05:43:09 Ah. 05:43:21 there was a tentative plan suggested by gigamonkey for a takeover 05:43:48 (they do ILC and own http://lisp.org) 05:45:22 Oh, like those broken CLHS links. 05:46:16 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:47:21 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@115-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:47 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.158] has joined #lisp 05:48:11 spacemagic [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:35 how can i run .lisp in clisp 05:48:40 *|3b|* wonders if ehu is awake again or just reconnected automatically 05:50:02 <|3b|> spacemagic: depending on what you mean, maybe LOAD? 05:50:40 i just want to test if the file works.. so in terminal: clisp file.lisp ? 05:50:44 <|3b|> if you have more than one file, or want it compiled, or are doing active development you might want something else though 05:51:16 i don't want to load a file as a requirement within the .lisp 05:51:25 *|3b|* looks up clisp command-line options 05:52:40 I would do it from emacs, but i can't get that to work either 05:53:14 <|3b|> yeah, looks like clisp file.lisp should load a .lisp file 05:53:40 <|3b|> whether that does anything visible depends on the file 05:54:15 hmm, i think your (load "file.lisp") within clisp is what i want 05:55:11 <|3b|> reasonably likely, if the file wasn't written to be used as a standalone script 05:57:39 -!- mcox [~user@140.253.50.42] has left #lisp 05:59:02 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 05:59:13 ddp [~ddp@58.137.63.55] has joined #lisp 05:59:15 <|3b|> (if the .lisp file came with a .asd file, it was probably intended to be loaded with asdf rather than directly with LOAD) 05:59:29 -!- ddp [~ddp@58.137.63.55] has left #lisp 05:59:35 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 06:02:05 Tau [~tau@186-194-35-214.i-next.psi.br] has joined #lisp 06:02:09 Zhivago, hi. 06:02:18 http://codepad.org/vNztpHu1 06:02:21 what about this code? 06:02:21 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:40 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 06:03:02 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:04:24 -!- spacemagic [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110323142937]] 06:06:08 truva [~erhan@adsl-76-243-198-28.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:15 hi truva 06:06:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:06:27 Zhivago, well. i'm gonna left now. 06:06:30 leave* 06:06:33 hey Tau 06:06:50 I wonder if that Professor from North Eastern lurks here, Eli was it 06:07:18 and there is an eli here =) 06:07:26 truva, maybe 06:08:18 Huh? 06:08:37 -!- entrosca [~entrosca@72.211.188.52] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:09:08 eli: do you teach at North Eastern? 06:09:21 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 06:09:33 truva: Yes. ("Northeastern", BTW.) 06:10:20 eli: What was the version of LISP you were working on? 06:10:31 Racket. 06:11:10 And s/were/are/ 06:11:56 eli, do you know c, right? 06:12:04 I actually don't attend Northeastern, but I read some articles about Racket a while ago 06:12:12 Guest67480 [~gudengren@202.102.144.6] has joined #lisp 06:12:33 A good friend of mine does attend Northeastern and he told me that his professor is the creator of it 06:12:39 Tau: Yes, for some value of "know". 06:12:53 eli, do you think this code would evaluate equally in any machines. 06:12:59 http://codepad.org/vyBt6mVV 06:13:11 lol Tau 06:13:14 uint16_t pad; if you cut out the pad it breaks here. 06:13:26 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has joined #lisp 06:13:31 truva: I'm not the creator of racket -- there's a group of people working on it, and if anyone could be considered a creator it's either Matthew Flatt or Matthias Felleisen. 06:13:39 (Note that it's M.F. either way...) 06:14:16 tau: Your code has undefined behaviour. 06:14:57 Zhivago, thanks, man. 06:15:06 Which part is undefined? 06:15:07 tau: Remember that structs may contain padding, and padding may be affected by any member assignment. 06:15:09 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:15:13 i think you don't want memset(&a1.ip, ... but rather memset(a1.ip or memset(& a1.ip[0], 06:15:20 The memcmp. 06:15:31 but I'm rusty 06:15:32 Zhivago, true. 06:15:34 Zhivago, perspicaz observation ! 06:15:55 tau: So that method is not portable, even under the best of circumstances. 06:16:23 tau: It may work by accident if you initialize the struct substrate to zero bytes first. 06:16:44 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-114.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:51 doesn't c99 now let you specify a default initializer? 06:16:56 Zhivago, hmm. what would it be a good solution? 06:17:02 Sure, but that won't initialize padding. 06:17:05 Zhivago: How is member assignment supposed to change the padding? 06:17:19 eli: However it likes. 06:17:21 i mean for the entire struct 06:17:30 Tau: Compare each member. 06:17:41 All I see is the issue of padding containing garbage, but the amount of padding shouldn't change.. 06:17:45 Zhivago, oh, nice. 06:17:47 eli: Member assignment can also affect other members. 06:18:03 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-123-211.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:18:04 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 06:18:09 Zhivago, it better not if they don't overlap 06:18:12 thanks Zhivago . 06:18:25 Zhivago: But the padding is something that is determined statically by the struct shape, not by assugnments. 06:18:30 eli: Which can be an issue with concurrency -- e.g., a.b = c; might pick up a.b and a.c together in the same word, compute a new value for that word, then write it back. 06:18:50 eli: No. The padding is not determined by anything. 06:19:08 eli: It is the values in the padding that I am referring to. 06:19:09 That's a very odd statement. 06:19:23 Ah -- you mean the *contents* of the padding? 06:19:37 eli: Sure. That's what you're looking at with memcmp. 06:19:52 That's so obviously random that I read "the padding" as "the size of the padding". 06:19:54 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:19:58 Is there any particular documentation generator that's preferred to the rest? 06:20:11 Bike, context? 06:20:14 good morning 06:20:21 http://www.cliki.net/Documentation%20Tool One of these. 06:20:49 ah. back on lisp topic I see :) 06:21:00 Yeah, sorry. 06:21:14 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-68.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:21:19 no need to apologize for discussing lisp :) 06:21:35 hey Zhivago i have other doubt. 06:22:36 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-184.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:22:48 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 06:22:54 when i do -std=c99 it and test somethings relative to int a = 0; printf("%d %d", ++a, a); printf("%d %d", a++, a) it actually appears to evaluate the params left to right and right to left depending on the a++ precedence. is it related to ++ precedence or just a matter of C finding the best performance ? 06:22:57 even though i'm using c99. 06:23:05 Tau: Undefined behaviour. 06:23:14 Zhivago, alright. 06:23:19 There is no sequence point between the ++a and the a. 06:23:47 sure. 06:23:57 If you had ++a, b then it would be fine -- and the order of evaluation would be undefined. 06:24:15 As it is, your program is not strictly conformant C and has undefined behaviour -- it's essentially illegal. 06:24:38 Zhivago, but, the standard C specifies that when we have ++a , and a it should evaluated rather ++a for later a? 06:24:46 No. 06:24:49 Tau: NO 06:24:57 In C, time progresses in terms of sequence points. 06:25:05 Without a sequence point there is no 'later'. 06:25:29 ++a and a++ are identical, except that the first returns 1 more than the second. 06:25:53 -!- Guest67480 [~gudengren@202.102.144.6] has left #lisp 06:26:06 Zhivago, hmm, so, are there no gain in performance making ++a rather than a++? 06:26:12 Yes. 06:26:13 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:26:20 (This is not true of C++) 06:26:20 alright. 06:26:40 Tau: it's mainly a logic thing. C++ breaks everything with operator overloading 06:26:55 Zhivago: I thought that one returns by reference and the other a copy of the original state? 06:27:02 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 06:27:02 fine. 06:27:02 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 06:27:02 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 06:27:04 (andother stuff, but overloadingand templates actually conspired against me) 06:27:06 truva: There is no 'return by reference' in C. 06:27:09 p_l|backup, sure. 06:27:18 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:27:18 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:27:18 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:27:23 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:27:30 Ah. 06:27:47 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.120.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:28:18 well. 06:28:22 now i'm gonna sleep. 06:28:44 before going to sleep, Zhivago . 06:28:46 Zhivago, i would say something. 06:28:59 well. i have a german friend who takes you as his hero. 06:29:06 his nick is fisted. 06:29:06 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:29:12 and really, he likes you and admire you. 06:29:19 he is on my channel now. it is #calculus. 06:29:27 it would be nice to have you there, Zhivago too. 06:29:36 Zhivago, you commonly treat him badly. 06:29:44 and i think he gets blue due to it. 06:29:49 I lack the resources to make that worthwhile. 06:29:56 Zhivago, take a bit of attention on him, he is nice. 06:30:00 Zhivago, no worries. 06:30:04 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:30:07 but, treat fisted fine, he is a good boy. 06:30:14 and he surely has you as his hero. 06:30:29 tau: Making heroes is bad for all concerned. 06:31:19 Zhivago, true. 06:31:31 tau: I generally treat people in proportion to how stupidly they behave. 06:31:31 i particularly don't have heroes. all they are dead. 06:31:32 bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:50 Zhivago, that is how i do. 06:32:03 however, sometimes we have to make exceptions. 06:32:09 Oh, documentation-template works pretty well. 06:32:13 Tau: All he needs to do is to pretend to be an intelligent person. 06:32:21 as i have told he is just a boy, his father died when he was young so he keeps looking for fatherly figures on #c. 06:32:33 and, unfortunately, he may picked you up for playing that role of father. 06:33:42 well. i'm gonna sleep. 06:33:47 thank you for the insight, Zhivago . 06:33:50 -!- Tau [~tau@186-194-35-214.i-next.psi.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:34:23 Sleep well. 06:34:42 Zhivago: Him and "fisted" have been arguing over that for 4+ hours in #calculus . It was ridiculous. 06:37:36 -!- truva [~erhan@adsl-76-243-198-28.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 06:40:29 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.118] has joined #lisp 06:42:39 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-114.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:43:50 I'm writing a program in SBCL that counts the number of divisors certain numbers have, trying to find a specific number of divisors. I count the divisors of num by looping from 1 to num and checking it's mod value, and it's way too slow. The programs spends most time in truncate. How can I make this faster? 06:44:33 s/it's/its, but it should probably be "the values" instead. 06:44:35 <|3b|> declare types or use a better algorithm? 06:44:37 gaidal: The first thing to try is probably find a better algorythm. 06:45:49 I don't know where to start thinking when looking for a better algorithm. The first thing that came to mind was reusing the counted divisors by hashing them... 06:45:50 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@98.234.186.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:45:57 <|3b|> only try primes, stop at sqrt num, are things i can think of off the top of my head 06:46:07 also, take note of SBCL's compiler notes after setting (optimize (speed 3)) 06:46:27 -!- Bike [~aeshtaer@71-38-154-233.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:46:46 Hm, why only primes? 06:47:41 Hm, I guess it would make sense not to check *all* numbers but to jump back and forth a bit... 06:47:49 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-169-36.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:48:04 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:48:54 splittist [~splittist@93-104.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:48:55 Ah, keep a list of primes and only check those, not check the number of divisors for primes (always 2) :P 06:49:19 <|3b|> well, any non-prime that is a factor is probably a product of primes, so if you find all the primes (including repetitions) you can multiply those to get the others 06:49:25 gaidal: what is it that you want to accomplish? Do you want to find perfect numbers? 06:49:36 Or do you just need the factorization? 06:49:52 <|3b|> and once you find one, you can divide the num by that and have a smaller search space for the rest 06:50:13 *|3b|* might not be awake enough for actual useful suggestions though :) 06:50:32 Even for perfect numbers I'd start with a simple, fast factorization, and then look how many and which combinations of factors are possible 06:50:40 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:50:40 flip214: Not factorization but divisors (i.e. 4 is one and not two (2*2)); I want to find the first number with over 500 divisors, it's an euler problem. 06:51:11 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 06:51:18 morning 06:52:04 well, if you have all prime factors and their powers, it's a simple to see how many combination of its primes are possible 06:52:32 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:53:10 |3b|: If I only collect prime divisors, then I would have to convert that list each time to see how many divisors it actually has, I wonder how much time that would save me... 06:54:02 gaidal: if you take eg. 36, which is 2*2*3*3 06:54:08 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:54:22 it has additional factors 4, 6, 12, and 18, right? 06:54:27 *|3b|* suspects you could just calculate the # of divisors directly from the number of each prime factor 06:54:51 what is the best way to iterate through a string? coercing the string to a list? 06:55:09 <|3b|> bsod1: any sequence iterating function or macro will work on strings 06:55:09 well, each factor is a combination of powers of the prime factors, up to the respective limit 06:55:22 <|3b|> bsod1: map, loop across, etc 06:55:27 for 36, you can take 2^0, 2^1, 2^2, and combine each of them with 3^0,3^1,3^2 06:55:41 |3b|: great, thanks 06:56:11 so from that quick look I'd say there are 3*3 factors; if you don't want to count 36, subtract 1, and perhaps another one for 2^0*3^0 == 1 06:56:16 <|3b|> bsod1: (strings are just vectors (1d arrays) specialized to hold characters) 06:56:52 so perhaps the problem can be reversed a bit ... 06:57:29 flip214: 9 is correct for 36, hm, now I have to understand what that means... 06:57:32 to get more than 500 factors, find a factorization of 501 (3*167), and so the number 2^167*3*3 will have this number of factors 06:57:56 or, better said, 2^167*3^2 06:58:00 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:32 although there might be smaller numbers, perhaps .... 06:58:52 *|3b|* would expect the product of the first 9 primes to have 500+ divisors, probably not the smallest # though 06:59:37 well, 2^9 is > 500, so it should have that many factors, yes 07:00:15 gaidal: can you test 223092870 for us, please? 07:00:42 Close, the product of the first 9 primes has 512 divisors 07:00:45 done 07:01:02 <|3b|> yeah, 511 07:01:25 *|3b|* forgot the number itself, so 512 07:01:31 |3b|: why only 511? aren't you counting 1 and N, too? They're distinct divisors, too! 07:02:23 <|3b|> so now just a question of packing multiples of the first few primes to optimize the total product 07:03:09 flip214: 2^167 seems a bit too big :P 07:04:16 well, for 501 factors? with _only_ powers of two you have a lot of repeation - 2,4,8,16 with many duplicates 07:04:30 |3b|: Multiples of the first 8 primes then? 07:04:33 of course with distinct primes (like |3b| said) it's smaller 07:04:38 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:53 well, 2^8 is only 256 - that won't have 500 factors, if I'm correct 07:05:11 <|3b|> quick empirical testing says you can replace 21 and 23 with 2 and still get 511 07:05:17 No, 9. 07:05:27 <|3b|> hmm, that's not right 07:05:45 9 divisors for 2^8. 07:06:08 <|3b|> replace 23 with 2 and 2 rather 07:06:39 then the divisors are not that unique, are they? 07:07:17 <|3b|> more possibilities with 2 2s instead of 1 23 07:07:39 flip214: 9 unique divisors, yes. 07:08:54 Rukowen [~Rukowen@222.253.111.10] has joined #lisp 07:08:58 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:09:28 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-tbjtgcvnvovflytc] has joined #lisp 07:09:43 <|3b|> so 2,2,2,3,3,3,5,7,11,13,17 works too 07:09:45 |3b|: So how do we know there are no smaller numbers below the product of the first n primes, if replacing a prime with some 2s gives more possibilities? 07:10:04 <|3b|> gaidal: i was expecting there to be smaller number below product of first 9 prime 07:10:19 ok 07:10:35 <|3b|> first 9 primes is just minimum number of prime factors counting repetitions 07:11:02 (* 3 3 2 2 2 2 2) is only 288 ... are you sure that this has more than 500 distinct divisors?? 07:11:04 <|3b|> but since repetitions would probably be smaller, we can replace the bigger numbers with those for a smaller overall product even though there are more factors 07:12:27 <|3b|> 2,2,2,3,3,3,5,7,11,13,17= 18378360 is the best combination i have so far, doing better would probably take actual programming :) 07:12:30 Oops, maybe it's time to tell you the whole problem :P 07:12:48 We want the first *triangle number* with at least 501 divisors 07:13:09 3b: are you sure that your prime factors give more than 500 _distinct_ divisors? 07:13:50 <|3b|> flip214: that was from just trying things rather than thinking, so unless i broke the test i think so 07:14:07 well, you can take 17 or not - 2 ways 07:14:08 -!- JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:14:12 you can take 13 or not - 2 ways 07:14:14 etc. 07:14:24 you can take 0, 1, or 2 3s ... 3 ways 07:14:34 If I multiply that I get 288, not > 500 07:15:05 -!- v0|d [~user@93.94.250.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:15:10 <|3b|> 3x each of 2s and 3s -> 512 07:15:18 and you can't use 2*2 for up to 4 factors - there are only 1,2 and 4, with another 2 duplicated 07:15:39 I don't understand you 07:15:45 I've just started to learn common lisp and I have some basic question. what are basic data types in cl? symbols, lists, strings.. 07:15:47 For reference, the last I saw before my program stopped moving: 320 divisors (2079th triangle number: 2162160). 07:16:10 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:16:37 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:16:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:17:50 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:40 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:18:48 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:48 gaidal: 24885214210872015 ? 07:18:59 divisors? 07:19:29 24885214210872015: 3 5 7 11 13 17 19 23 37 131 46027 07:19:38 bsod1: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node15.html 07:19:44 much too many ... there are smaller numbers 07:19:49 Well, we know the number is no more than 18378360... 07:19:55 naryl: thanks 07:19:56 not bigger* 07:20:01 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:20:33 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:20:37 bsod: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/FrontMatter/Chapter-Index.html 07:20:52 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-68.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:20:54 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 07:21:04 <|3b|> without the triangular limitation, i have 17297280, limiting to triangular is probably harder 07:21:30 bsod1: If you don't take CL-specific datatypes into account these would be: numbers, characters, symbols (not a lisp-specific :P), arrays, hash-tables, structures, functions and objects. 07:21:54 bsod: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_4-2-3.html 07:22:11 yes, that was just a guess - I took my 9-prime number, multiplied with (-1 n) and divided by 2 to get a triangular number 07:22:33 Zhivago: great, thanks 07:23:09 naryl: by object, do you mean objects in OO languages? 07:23:19 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:23:22 yes 07:23:36 It depends on what you mean by 'objects in OO languages' ... 07:25:39 Is 27 an 'object is OO languages'? 07:30:14 Zhivago: in some, yes 07:31:01 eg. perl6 can have autoboxed representations for integers, so that you can add methods for them 07:32:12 -!- twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:32:52 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-39.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:33:04 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 07:33:07 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:33:18 bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:58 So, what does "objects in OO languages" mean? 07:37:13 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 07:40:16 mvillene1ve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:40:39 cods_ [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:53 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:41:05 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 07:42:08 -!- cods_ is now known as cods 07:42:19 Zhivago: :) have no idea. sorry I'm CS first year undergrad so I know little bit of Java, OOP, C, C++, Python(for my personal work) :) 07:42:37 noob here 07:45:10 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:45:10 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.118] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:45:10 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-184.netcologne.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:45:10 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:45:10 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:45:10 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:45:10 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:45:11 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:45:11 -!- jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:45:11 -!- xian [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:45:11 -!- plan9 [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:45:11 -!- prip [~foo@host188-121-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 07:45:42 xian [xian@we-are-the-b.org] has joined #lisp 07:47:07 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:48:09 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:48:32 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:49:33 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:51:30 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:51:38 jamief [~user@harrison.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:51:39 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:58 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:52:01 prip [~foo@host188-121-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 07:52:19 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.133.118] has joined #lisp 07:52:42 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 07:53:03 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 07:53:24 woudshoo [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:21 dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:56 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 07:55:18 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.109.48] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:55:55 myu2 [~myu2@KD210249054068.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:56:03 kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 07:56:53 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:55 <|3b|> yeah, prime factorization seems to make it fast enough to just brute force it 07:57:00 -!- myu2 [~myu2@KD210249054068.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:04 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:59:33 how can I stop slime when it stucks in infinite loop? 07:59:55 <|3b|> C-c C-c in repl, C-c C-b in lisp buffers, if you mean the lisp slime is talking to 08:00:04 <|3b|> if you mean slime itself (or emacs in general) C-g 08:00:13 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-146-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:20 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-126-34.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:01:14 |3b|: thakns, 08:01:20 I've just killed SBCL :P 08:01:48 <|3b|> if you are in windows, yeah, that is a known limitation of sbcl :( 08:03:28 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-125-71.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:04:02 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 08:05:30 <|3b|> heh, and turned out most of the time taken was printing out debugging results :p without that it finds 100 numbers in ~0.5 sec 08:08:50 |3b|: I'm on pardus linux 08:09:08 <|3b|> ah, C-c C-c should be OK then 08:10:57 *|3b|* supposes i could probably get away with cutting off the factorization below (sqrt num), since anything with a prime factor close to that probably doen't have enough other factors to have >500 divisors 08:12:08 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-pysnfriegmepikys] has joined #lisp 08:14:22 flyfish [~liuguangz@zz-12-6-a8.bta.net.cn] has joined #lisp 08:14:54 how can I use mapcar with a function takes more than one parameter? 08:15:17 Areil [~user@123.21.165.229] has joined #lisp 08:15:18 <|3b|> pass more than 1 list : (mapcar '+ '(1 2) '(3 4)) 08:15:22 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:15:29 <|3b|> (unless you really want reduce or something) 08:15:33 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:15:53 |3b|: what if I want second parameter to be same thing for every first parameter? 08:15:58 <|3b|> alternately, curry the function, (mapcar (lambda (a) (+ a 3)) '(1 2 3)) 08:16:06 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:16:07 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@222.253.111.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:16:10 |3b|: wow, great 08:17:36 |3b|: is your last example what functional programmers(or lispers) call currying? 08:18:13 *|3b|* may have gotten the terminology wrong, you could just call it 'wrap it in a lambda' :) 08:18:28 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-52-16.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:19:03 :) 08:19:30 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:19:46 <|3b|> i think it is something like that though 08:20:13 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 08:20:14 <|3b|> looks like that is what the CURRY in alexandria library does, at least 08:20:15 gko [~gko@111.81.219.182] has joined #lisp 08:20:33 <|3b|> well, aside from possibly the argument order 08:23:24 |3b|: How do you mean I could cut the divisor collecting where the factors are... how close to sqrt num? 08:25:01 Update: I know the number is between 11,300,000 and 18,378,360... It's painfully slow. 08:25:42 myu2 [~myu2@KD210249054068.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:26:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-167.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:27:09 I stopped counting for odd numbers, since they seemed to have less divisors. Added fixnum declaration (I haven't learned how to use it but it saved 50 million cpu cycles per a few seconds). Still slow. 08:28:15 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:31:29 <|3b|> gaidal: why below 18,378,360? 08:31:58 |3b|: Because that's your number, that has 512 divisors, and it's not the correct answer. 08:32:17 Oh wait. 08:32:26 ... 08:32:30 <|3b|> my number was attempting to find a lower bound for having >500 divisors 08:32:32 It has to be a triangle number. 08:33:04 So it could be way higher... 08:33:41 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755555.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:54 <|3b|> yeah, a bit higher 08:34:21 Is "triangle number" a commonly used term? 08:34:31 <|3b|> 13674528000 seems triangular and has 1728 divisors if you care :) 08:34:44 <|3b|> depends on where you measure 'common'ness 08:35:10 I'm surprised I don't have to explain what I mean by triangle number :P 08:35:12 <|3b|> probably not many normal people talk about any sort of numbers beyond the occasional sum of money :p 08:35:29 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.219.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:35:29 *|3b|* just typed it into google rather than trying to remember it 08:35:41 I passed 16,000,000 and the record is still 320 08:36:16 <|3b|> well, you should get a 480 in another 2000000 or so :p 08:36:51 Wow it's slow now. 08:36:51 greaver [~jo@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 08:37:12 <|3b|> yeah, brute force is probably not the way to go for counting divisors 08:37:19 You're supposed to be able to compute the answer in less than a minute. 08:37:34 *|3b|* computes 1000 answers in 2.7 seconds 08:37:42 Sure, this Centrino M 1.5 GHz is slow, but... 08:37:51 What 1000 answers 08:38:10 <|3b|> first 1000 numbers that qualify... triangular and >500 divisors 08:38:23 Then you use a different algorithm :P 08:38:58 Aha! "480 divisors (5984th triangle number: 17907120)" 08:39:10 <|3b|> like i said, calculating divisors directly from prime factorization is effective :) 08:39:25 zomgbie_ [~jesus@85.127.211.56] has joined #lisp 08:39:25 <|3b|> though i guess one thing that might help with brute force divisor counting... 08:39:35 <|3b|> are you just looping from 1 ... sqrt num? 08:39:53 <|3b|> actually, nevermind... only works for prime factors 08:40:22 <|3b|> (which is when you find one, divide by that and recurse with the result) 08:40:44 Yes, loop from 1 to sqrt num does not seem good when we're collecting (if (zerop (mod num i))) 08:42:09 -!- myu2 [~myu2@KD210249054068.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:42:14 I wrote a recursive fn for factorizing numbers before, yes it's fast of course but I couldn't you before, not sure how to use it h ere 08:42:15 here* 08:42:17 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-169-36.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:43:55 <|3b|> that's where the earlier discussion about figuring out how many divisors there are for the product of a set of prime factors 08:45:04 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 08:45:09 <|3b|> for each prime factor that appears N times in the factorization of the number, a given divisor can have that prime factor 0 to N times 08:46:17 <|3b|> so the number of ways you can combine the prime factors is the number of divisors 08:46:30 *|3b|* probably isn't explaining very well 08:46:31 So you use this to get the maximum potential number of divisors, and then count those numbers the slow way? 08:46:44 <|3b|> no, it calculates the number of divisors directly 08:47:47 <|3b|> take for example 256, prime factors are 2, eight times 08:47:50 Hm... so a given divisor can and will have that prime factor 0 to N times? 08:48:09 <|3b|> so every divisor of 256 must have only 2 as factors 08:48:16 haven't learned much discrete math :P 08:48:37 Right 08:49:01 <|3b|> so the possible divisors of 256 (aside from 1) are the 8 combinations of 2: 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 08:49:15 <|3b|> then just extend that to numbers with more prime factors than 2 08:49:33 <|3b|> say 24 = 2 2 2 3 08:50:01 <|3b|> divisors can have zero or one 3, zero to three 2s 08:50:04 0-3 2s and 0-1 3s = 6? 08:50:13 Hm, it should be 4. 08:50:20 Oh, no that's 21. 08:50:27 are character codes (char-code) portable? 08:51:08 <|3b|> makks_: the values? no 08:51:18 makks_: not in general, but many Lisps these days support Unicode, which makes things more portable. 08:51:32 <|3b|> though in practice most current lisps are probably ascii or unicode 08:51:37 unfortunately, even the Unicode-based Lisps have annoying differences 08:52:49 but I can use a macro to determine the right char codes at runtime right? 08:52:55 lichtblau: they do? 08:53:08 gko [~gko@114-137-25-142.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:34 <|3b|> gaidal: so 4 possible numbers of 2s, 2 possible numbers of 3 = 8 divisors (or something like that... i did the math as much by poking at it 'til it worked as by thinking :) 08:54:24 Oh, that makes sense. 08:54:56 So you still factorize each number and calculate it's maximum number of divisors? 08:55:11 Should be faster than 20 million (mod) I guess... 08:55:15 <|3b|> right 08:55:19 its* 08:55:26 Oh, hm. 08:55:47 <|3b|> especially since you only need to check primes 08:56:14 I think it's fairly fast anyway. 08:56:46 (Saying that seems easier than changing my factorization routine to only check primes :P) 08:57:16 <|3b|> yeah, worth a try without it 08:57:32 <|3b|> since plenty of room to be slower than what i ended up with :) 08:57:39 Yes. 08:57:53 I'm at 25,000,000 now and nothing is even close to the single 480 I got 08:58:52 <|3b|> yeah, not for a while 08:59:15 you're pretty good at not spoiling my little adventure :P 08:59:18 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:59:44 It's down to one second per number now, maybe I'll have time to implement the new version 08:59:58 eh, down to one number per second 09:00:09 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:13 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:00:28 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:00:56 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:01:03 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:04 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:01:08 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:01:39 Triplefault [~caleb@adsl-145-219-93.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:58 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:03 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:02:41 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:02:50 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:08 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 09:03:46 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:08:13 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:17 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:23 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 09:11:28 -!- greaver [~jo@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:14:30 Harag [~Harag@41.56.17.244] has joined #lisp 09:17:56 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:18:28 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.179.223] has joined #lisp 09:18:29 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:19:32 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-117-146.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 09:22:34 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25:40 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.179.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:27:27 splittist: IIRC, the following different meanings of char-code are found in the wild on major lisp impls: UTF-32 (OpenMCL), UTF-16 (CMUCL), UCS-2 (LispWorks&Allegro), malformed UTF-32 (SBCL) 09:28:18 *_3b* thought sbcl was just 'unicode code point' not utf-whatever? 09:29:00 UTF-32 is "unicode code point" 09:29:39 (I'm sure pjb is ready to explain it in a different way, but that's how I'd describe it.) 09:31:05 |3b|: Do you have anything smaller than: 576 divisors (12375th triangle number: 76576500)? 09:31:07 <_3b> i think the restriction on (MOD 1114112) instead of full 32 bits is the distinction i was trying to make 09:31:36 <_3b> gaidal: that looks like what i had (would have to go look on other computer to tell for sure though) 09:32:15 OK, cool! 09:32:24 My code takes 98 seconds for 10 answers... :( 09:32:57 Do you have a pre-generated list of primes to check? 09:33:34 <_3b> i calculated one reusing the brute-force divisor check, was too lazy to actually make a sieve 09:34:01 <_3b> (and the divisor thing was fast enough for the # of primes needed) 09:34:08 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755555.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:26 How do you know how many primes you need to keep in the list? Or do you calculate them on-demand and store? 09:36:06 *_3b* just guessed based on how many i could calculate without getting bored, and it turned out to be enough :p 09:36:13 hehe 09:37:24 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 09:39:12 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:39:59 unithrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 09:42:53 gaidal: the 12375 triangle number would be 12375*12376 - this isn't 76576500, is it? 09:43:11 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:43:46 Let's see... 09:44:12 Yes it is. 09:44:13 <_3b> flip214: /2 ? 09:44:22 oh yes, thank you 09:44:44 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:45:01 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:45:16 Oh, that's a faster way of getting the triangle numbers :P 09:46:02 <_3b> well, if you are iterating over them should be as fast to calculate them iteratively 09:46:32 <_3b> might be faster to get a specific one from scratch though 09:47:06 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:25 Yeah, I forgot that I already calculate them recursively 09:49:21 killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-221-162.p.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 09:50:02 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:50:54 I tried using a list of primes, but it's not faster, it just uses more memory... hm 09:51:31 lichtblau: thanks 09:54:15 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85.127.211.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:55:30 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-207-220.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:56:18 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 09:57:48 dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:00:34 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:01:49 myu2 [~myu2@KD210249054068.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:02:40 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.77] has joined #lisp 10:03:55 -!- myu2 [~myu2@KD210249054068.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:18 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:39 myu2 [~myu2@KD210249054068.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:10:42 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:13:36 greaver [~jo@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:15:01 -!- muddyferret [~muddyferr@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: muddyferret] 10:15:32 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@zz-12-6-a8.bta.net.cn] has left #lisp 10:16:00 I get 5775*5776/2, with 576 factors, ((2^3) (3^1) (5^2) (7^1) (11^1) (19^2) (1^1)) 10:16:03 -!- gko [~gko@114-137-25-142.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:16:07 modulo bugs, of course 10:16:16 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-221-162.p.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:16:53 gko [~gko@114-137-25-142.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:54 -!- Landr [~user@78-21-55-104.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:40 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 10:23:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-1-111.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:23:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-1-111.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 10:23:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:23:54 Vutral [lmyXBs0lnl@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:26 flip214: I only get 288 divisors for that one. 10:25:34 slime repl is auto-indenting code when I move to new line but not indenting the code when I edit source code, do you know why? also auto-completing with tab doesn't work when I edit source code(but works in slime repl) 10:25:57 flip214: You should probably not count the 1^1 10:26:29 Without it, you get 288. 10:28:39 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:28:53 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.245.203] has joined #lisp 10:29:25 Hi all! 10:29:40 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-xdsxkbasbhajkhqw] has joined #lisp 10:30:21 |3b|: How do you count the real number of divisors (not the maximum potential amount)? My program is still 90-95% in that function. 10:32:40 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-18-71.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 10:34:31 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@84.97.17.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:36:09 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-184.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:37:20 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:00 -!- gko [~gko@114-137-25-142.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:38:06 40 seconds to generate 1000 answers, without actually checking them. 15 times slower than yours, maybe you have a faster machine though. 10:38:41 -!- Harag [~Harag@41.56.17.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:38:49 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 10:38:49 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 10:38:49 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:39:59 amb007 [~a_bakic@252.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:44 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-248-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:41:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-184.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:42:54 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 10:43:01 Landr [Hraban@78-21-55-104.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 10:44:26 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:11 gaidal: well, is 1 not a unique divisor, too? 10:46:18 gaidal: different algorithm. 10:47:06 My code checks 100000 to 200000 in 8.8 seconds 10:47:10 beach` [~user@116.118.72.33] has joined #lisp 10:47:27 flip214: I'm not sure about the mathematics but I'm pretty sure you shouldn't use it, as I get the desired results without using it 10:48:36 -!- beach [~user@116.118.8.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:48:37 1 is a unique divisor, but you should only count it once. In the above you count is a two, 1^0 and 1^1 10:49:19 But again, I don't really know because I didn't totally follow the prime number product argument. 10:49:43 count it as two* 10:49:52 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-185-184.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:50:18 ah yes, you're right. It's only a single factor, right. 10:51:27 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:34 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:51:46 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:43 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 10:56:50 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:00:40 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:03:41 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:18 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 11:04:53 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 11:06:04 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.77] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 11:09:05 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:09:36 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 11:12:40 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 11:13:42 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:14:09 does slime have a means of starting a background thread, so I can continue doing stuff in the repl while something runs? 11:15:32 Hraban_ [Landr@78-21-55-104.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 11:16:01 C-M-x in a lisp-buffer 11:16:05 or start a thread yourself 11:16:37 or start another repl 11:18:16 C-M-x being lisp-eval-defun? does that run in the background? 11:19:03 C-M-x should be bound to slime-eval-defun in slime-mode 11:19:38 if your communication-style is :spawn that will evaluate the top-level form in a new thread 11:20:09 ah yeah, I was in a slime-repl buffer 11:20:26 -!- Landr [Hraban@78-21-55-104.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:21:47 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 11:22:03 that works, thanks 11:24:23 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 11:24:38 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:25:00 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:26:02 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-cqimyhamokuewonk] has left #lisp 11:26:18 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:31:07 -!- Hraban_ is now known as Landr 11:33:08 aperturefever [20164@ninthfloor.org] has joined #lisp 11:33:22 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:33:38 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:34:05 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:36:06 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.7] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 11:36:06 Is there any way to make format print an "and" when writing numbers with ~r? 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Patagous [9584bdeb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.132.189.235] has joined #lisp 12:37:39 greaver [~jo@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:37:47 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 12:40:06 xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.130] has joined #lisp 12:40:15 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-85-57.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 12:43:05 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-39.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:43:59 Can anyone point me to a way to make hunchentoot run in the foreground? 12:44:57 the :taskmanager initarg sounds promising 12:47:55 foreground... how? 12:48:05 you mean getting feedback? 12:49:08 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:19 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B023C88.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 12:52:31 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 12:52:31 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 12:52:31 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] 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plugin) now does swank, too 13:43:25 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:04 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:08 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 13:45:27 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-18-71.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:39 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:48:27 zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-215-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:51:11 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-207-220.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:53:28 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-208-71.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:54:04 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-215-186.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:54:51 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 13:55:20 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:55:36 emporas 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14:03:37 (I guess it is) 14:04:05 sykopomp: definitely taking a long time to respond 14:05:26 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:29 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 14:08:00 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-169-52.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:08:41 pnq [~nick@ACA2EC25.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:15 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:10:16 stis [~stis@82.182.254.46] has joined #lisp 14:11:40 sid3k` [~user@li298-167.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:48 rubend [~user@209-248.60-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:12:07 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B19D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:10 -!- df_aldur [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:13:26 -!- rubend [~user@209-248.60-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has left #lisp 14:13:27 snafuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:30 _death 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ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 14:29:52 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:30:56 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 14:31:31 Hi, guys. Newbie question. Why is it that last returns a list, while first does not? 14:31:56 clhs last 14:32:00 hmm 14:32:25 last also takes the number of elements you want 14:32:25 What's the rationale for making last behave like that? Actually I was interested to know this too. 14:32:26 markskilbeck: "last returns the last n conses (not the last n elements) of list)." 14:33:10 I mean there is no function to get the last *element* of list. 14:33:26 lastcar is a common utility. 14:33:28 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:34:11 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-231-87.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:35:32 Interesting. 14:35:37 *markskilbeck* strokes beard 14:36:25 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 14:36:30 what's the last element of the empty list? 14:37:04 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 14:37:24 a promise to deliver the element when the contents of the list change 14:37:26 this is rule: cong ::= ( and * ) this is what i've done...does it respect the rule? (defun cong-p (X) (and (listp x) (eql 'and (car x)) (every #'fbf-p (rest x)))) 14:38:04 Phoodus: And what's the last cons of the empty list? 14:38:21 there is no cons! 14:38:24 s/Phoodus/pkhuong/ 14:38:33 naryl: it returns nil. 14:38:42 That's different from the return value for any non-empty list. 14:38:43 well, "cons" does not sound very much like "spoon" 14:38:57 the element of nil cons is also nil, so the lasat element of the empty list is nil. 14:39:13 oO what's this "nil cons"? 14:39:22 Uh... 14:39:25 :) 14:39:35 naryl: and now I can't tell the difference between (()) and (). 14:39:42 (car nil) 14:40:00 my other car is cdr 14:40:05 that's just a convention. NIL isn't a cons. 14:43:53 myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:44:07 vaasu [~faya@60.51.107.201] has joined #lisp 14:44:19 hi, im looking for an online pretty printer for lisp or other languages which uses s-expressions 14:44:49 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:05 georgek [~george@184-77-70-234.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:28 anyone know what's up with common-lisp.net? 14:45:44 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:50:51 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 14:51:44 does anyone read what i have written? =( 14:52:19 Patagous: please stand by, I'll have to look into the logs to see whether I can help you 14:52:41 i can paste again..no prblem 14:52:42 ;) 14:52:52 this is rule: cong ::= ( and * ) this is what i've done...does it respect the rule? (defun cong-p (X) (and (listp x) (eql 'and (car x)) (every #'fbf-p (rest x)))) 14:53:28 looks sane 14:53:50 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:53:51 Patagous: I don't know... your rule seems to be defined on character strings, while your function works with structured data (lists). 14:54:28 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:55:25 binary_crayon [~binary_cr@pp002332dca816.usask.ca] has joined #lisp 14:55:58 -!- binary_crayon [~binary_cr@pp002332dca816.usask.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:51 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 14:56:53 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:57:09 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:57:16 -!- em is now known as emma 14:57:16 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:57:43 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:58:11 -!- emma is now known as em 14:58:17 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 14:58:30 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:18 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:49 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:05:07 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-xdsxkbasbhajkhqw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-208.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:53 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:09:15 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:11:03 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12:20 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-pysnfriegmepikys] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:13:18 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:33 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:15:42 -!- lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:46 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:29 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:17:34 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:18:00 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host81-152-162-37.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:00 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host81-152-162-37.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:18:00 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 15:20:11 well..i've found a mistake...correct that post the new version.. 15:21:18 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 15:22:39 oudeis [~oudeis@109.66.203.224] has joined #lisp 15:23:12 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2EC25.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:23:17 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:54 pkhuong: yes, the grammar is given as if for characters, but he really has to process sexps. 15:26:35 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:27:53 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@222.68.164.130] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:29:51 Bronsa [~brace@host11-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:31:13 -!- georgek [~george@184-77-70-234.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:31:30 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:37 -!- unithrick is now known as workthrick 15:32:05 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:32:09 Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has joined #lisp 15:32:35 -!- Patagous 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[~jesus@85-127-208-71.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:51:36 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:52:02 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.207.179] has joined #lisp 15:52:24 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:52:31 Bike [~arm@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 15:52:57 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has joined #lisp 15:53:17 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53:44 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-214-136.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:53:48 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-229-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:53:58 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 15:54:44 pdlogan [~patrick@c-76-27-203-101.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:23 Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has joined #lisp 15:55:26 oudeis_ [~oudeis@2.54.26.129] has joined #lisp 15:56:41 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:57:34 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@46-116-125-144.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:58:50 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-tbjtgcvnvovflytc] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:00:37 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 16:02:57 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.245.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06:30 codelurker [~codelurke@c-24-91-16-174.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:24 ak70 [~user@46.11.81.90] has joined #lisp 16:07:57 dabd [~dabd@kdbio22.inesc-id.pt] has joined #lisp 16:08:06 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.245.203] has joined #lisp 16:08:36 -!- dabd [~dabd@kdbio22.inesc-id.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:49 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:09:05 dabd [~dabd@kdbio22.inesc-id.pt] has joined #lisp 16:09:50 -!- dabd [~dabd@kdbio22.inesc-id.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:03 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 16:10:52 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755555.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:58 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:11:29 dabd [~dabd@kdbio22.inesc-id.pt] has joined #lisp 16:12:31 is there a way to save slime repl session? 16:12:52 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@c-24-91-16-174.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:15:47 u mean buffer ? 16:16:02 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 16:19:01 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-18-71.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 16:19:21 -!- dabd [~dabd@kdbio22.inesc-id.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:22:28 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:22:40 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:23:45 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 16:24:06 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:15 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.134.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:24:33 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has left #lisp 16:24:50 Hi! Whats the name of the mode which hihlights all occurences in the buffer of the word with the cursor on it? 16:25:24 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.95.168] has joined #lisp 16:25:24 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.95.168] has quit [Changing host] 16:25:24 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 16:25:27 sorry, wrong channel :) 16:27:26 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.100.75] has joined #lisp 16:28:05 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:28:07 bsod1: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_dribbl.htm 16:28:31 cesarbp_ [~chatzilla@189.247.100.75] has joined #lisp 16:28:35 Gmind: yes I mean buffer 16:28:54 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.100.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:57 -!- cesarbp_ is now known as cesarbp 16:29:30 pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 16:31:13 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:38 can anyone access common-lisp.net right now? is it down? 16:33:54 common-lisp.net is definitely down. 16:35:05 ak70: what's the problem ? 16:35:32 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.194] has joined #lisp 16:36:05 nothing, just try to access it to find some docs and it is down 16:36:49 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host11-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:37:16 yeah, it's migrating to a new host now; might be down for a while longer 16:37:24 not sure how long - ehu or nyef might know 16:38:20 codelurker [~codelurke@c-24-91-16-174.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:58 vsedach [~user@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:39:59 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 16:40:41 xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:46 -!- pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:40:53 -!- splittist [~splittist@93-104.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:40:55 pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 16:41:32 -!- oudeis_ [~oudeis@2.54.26.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:41:51 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-18-71.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:56 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-229-134.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:42:30 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:38 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-140-222.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:45:10 BullShark [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/nanomachine] has joined #lisp 16:46:13 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 16:46:15 in case it's news, clnet is down 16:47:29 ehh, I did read the backlog, just further up... :) 16:47:57 oudeis_ [~oudeis@2.54.108.253] has joined #lisp 16:48:33 -!- antifuchs changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: common-lisp.net down due to hosting changes, SBCL 1.0.47, usocket 0.5.0, ABCL 0.25 16:48:38 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:48:49 hope this will help (: 16:49:28 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:53:45 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-249-212.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:54:52 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:02 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:02:10 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 17:03:06 Hyper-Core [~lol@h174.117.31.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:34 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:04:40 Bronsa [~brace@host11-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:04:53 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755555.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:23 -!- 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[~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:37:53 Patagous [970fd7b2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.15.215.178] has joined #lisp 17:38:02 cesarbp_ [~chatzilla@189.247.100.75] has joined #lisp 17:38:16 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.100.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:25 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:38:29 -!- cesarbp_ is now known as cesarbp 17:39:37 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:39:39 frsilent [~frsilent@141.165.181.33] has joined #lisp 17:40:15 bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:31 Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.97.140] has joined #lisp 17:42:38 -!- xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:43:16 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:27 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has joined #lisp 17:44:03 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:45:20 Younder [~john@224.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:45:53 TippenEin [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:03 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:47:05 -!- frsilent [~frsilent@141.165.181.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:47:31 -!- Younder [~john@224.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 17:47:40 Bronsa [~brace@host11-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:47:50 Younder [~john@224.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:48:46 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:49:53 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:49:56 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:16 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:17 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:23 -!- BullShark [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/nanomachine] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:26 unithrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 17:52:27 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:52:33 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:02 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:43 astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has joined #lisp 17:54:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:55:05 BullShark [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/nanomachine] has joined #lisp 17:56:45 -!- greaver [~jo@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:49 What's the swank function to get the source location in a backtrace? 17:58:02 Ie. the backtrace just gives function names, and I can ask for the locals 17:58:13 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:58:31 frame-source-location iirc 17:58:39 thanks, I'll try 17:58:42 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:58:44 -!- cnl is now known as spoof 17:58:45 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-136-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:45 republican_devil [~g@pool-74-111-197-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:04 -!- spoof is now known as xpf 17:59:37 xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 17:59:44 usually you do C-h k in sldb in this case, press v, go via the *Help* buffer to the elisp function then walk through until you get to the actualy slime-eval or slime-eval-async to find out the rpc call 17:59:56 alternatively, you just do it (i.e. press v on a frame) and look into *slime-events* 18:00:12 frame-source-location is probably the swank-backend function 18:00:41 I rewrote that part but never came around comitting it 18:01:03 I made it show local special bindings, local restarts additionally to local catch tags 18:01:30 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:02:18 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:02:54 zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-169-162.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:03:14 -!- stis [~stis@82.182.254.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:03:18 stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:03:37 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 18:05:24 bsod1_ [~sinan@78.173.124.9] has joined #lisp 18:05:28 -!- xpf [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 18:06:21 -!- oudeis_ [~oudeis@2.54.108.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:06:41 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-140-222.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:06:49 tcr1: that would be really very useful 18:07:01 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 18:07:10 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@88.240.131.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:07:11 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-169-162.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:07:42 xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 18:07:54 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-134-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:08:24 dlowe_nb [~dlowe@63.115.78.49] has joined #lisp 18:10:03 I can provide a patch which is working for ecl but needs other backends to update 18:10:22 ic 18:11:52 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0034.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 18:12:15 tcr1: I'm improving slimv, so thanks for the slime keys, but they don't help me ;-) 18:13:29 cesarbp_ [~chatzilla@189.247.100.75] has joined #lisp 18:13:29 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.100.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:13:31 -!- cesarbp_ is now known as cesarbp 18:14:06 oudeis_ [~oudeis@109.67.211.23] has joined #lisp 18:15:02 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 18:15:11 jeti [~user@p548EB558.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:14 slimv could stand to have some keybindings 18:17:53 bsod1__ [~sinan@85.100.72.59] has joined #lisp 18:18:03 -!- bsod1_ [~sinan@78.173.124.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:18:11 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:20:45 process: it has; did you see g:slimv_keybindings? set it to 1 or 2 for short or longer bindings 18:21:03 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:21:04 I just do ,ed for eval-defun all the time 18:22:21 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:40 -!- bsod1__ [~sinan@85.100.72.59] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:58 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:24:27 oh, nice. thanks :) 18:25:52 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-248-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:26:18 -!- Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:26:23 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.207.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:28:01 Just look at the slimv.txt documentation ... there's a lot in there 18:28:34 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:30:38 -!- dlowe_nb [~dlowe@63.115.78.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:16 tcr1: if you did a patch to make it work in SBCL I'd be eternally grateful to you (or at least a few minutes) 18:31:29 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.slime.devel/9961 18:31:32 frsilent [~frsilent@24.54.110.102] has joined #lisp 18:31:39 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:31:45 Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has joined #lisp 18:31:51 Where Nikodemus answers "Well, let's say a missing feature: source locations are currently not available for code loaded as source." 18:31:53 ;-( 18:32:17 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:27 -!- stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:46 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:33:58 -!- unithrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:34:05 billitch [~billitch@87-231-48-244.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:34:19 workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 18:36:42 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:36:51 i linked up the types table from thw quickref for my own convenience, thought i'd share: http://bit.ly/cl-types 18:37:27 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:43 since i liked the layout and couldn't find a similar web based format 18:38:38 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:43 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:38:55 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0034.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:38:59 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:39:56 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 18:40:06 -!- workthrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:40:31 italic: what are the dashed lines? 18:40:39 -!- frsilent [~frsilent@24.54.110.102] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:40:56 frsilent [~frsilent@24.54.110.102] has joined #lisp 18:42:13 wzergw [~hynek@ip-62-245-66-12.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 18:42:22 that's not my notation, but i assume it means it inherits from 18:42:37 bsod1 [~sinan@85.100.72.59] has joined #lisp 18:42:40 -!- beach [~user@116.118.72.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:42:46 what is the difference between list-len and length ? 18:43:25 list-length can deal with circular lists, I think 18:43:58 Oh, and length works on sequences, not just lists. 18:44:00 <[df]> bsod1: (assuming you mean list-length) length operates on any sequence, list-length operates specifically on lists 18:44:03 <[df]> and what Bike said 18:44:10 <[df]> :D 18:44:38 [df]: why should I use list-length since length can return list's length? 18:45:42 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0058.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 18:46:28 -!- jeti [~user@p548EB558.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:46:30 <[df]> you probably shouldn't, unless there's a chance you're dealing with a circular list 18:49:34 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:52:28 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:52:39 Funnily enough, none deal with dotted list. 18:53:45 pjb: what would you have them answer? 18:54:17 3.5? 18:55:56 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:39 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:56:44 (defun dotted-length (x) (cond ((null x) 0) ((atom x) 1/2) (t (1+ (dotted-length (cdr x)))))) 18:57:57 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:49 -!- pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:00:11 nono. (defun dotted-length (x atom-length) (cond ((null x) 0) ((atom x) (funcall atom-length x)) (t (1+ (dotted-length (cdr x)))))) 19:00:17 pnq [~nick@host-164.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 19:00:37 What would one use that for? 19:03:28 Humor 19:05:05 Anyone ever used a dotted list in the first place? All I used is a pre-dotted-list where the very first CAR is actually a pointer to somewhere else in the list 19:06:04 -!- frsilent [~frsilent@24.54.110.102] has left #lisp 19:09:33 gigamonkey: see list-lengths in http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=public/lisp&h=2090f6d29b6cc7947ea14886e2f9b3d0c3a99dfe&hb=7c3d4719bbaa534b42c8882a17c7dc983acfb7ab&f=common-lisp/cesarum/list.lisp 19:11:06 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:12:59 faux [~user@213.112.156.33] has joined #lisp 19:15:31 Khisanth [~Khisanth@50.14.244.111] has joined #lisp 19:16:35 tcr1: I guess in the old times, when a cons was a cons, people could have used dotted lists to spare one. 19:16:37 -!- Areil [~user@123.21.165.229] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:19:30 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:20:46 Fare [~Fare@206.83.64.178.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:51 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 19:22:56 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 19:23:25 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:28 rillo [~user@89.204.137.198] has joined #lisp 19:28:20 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:28:36 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:29:16 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host11-184-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:32:09 *p_l|backup* is reminded of HUNK format with its (car . x_n . x_{n-1} . ... . x_1 . cdr) iirc 19:34:14 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 19:34:48 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 19:34:48 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 19:34:48 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:35:11 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:37:36 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:37:40 pirx [~pirx@195.225.69.9] has joined #lisp 19:38:43 codetonowhere1 [~Adium@78-105-3-181.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:38:48 Jasko [~tjasko@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:30 -!- pirx [~pirx@195.225.69.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:43 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:40:19 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 19:40:55 pirx [~pirx@195.225.69.9] has joined #lisp 19:42:30 agumonkey [~agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:43 francogrex [~user@109.130.91.227] has joined #lisp 19:44:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:46:08 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:46:32 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:47:17 mm, what's the asdf2 equivalent of ((:file "macros" :type "l"))? 19:47:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:48:12 *tcr1* didn't even know that existed 19:48:16 ah, Xach to the rescue. 19:49:31 I love how pjb combines modern utf8 encoding of his source with stone-age ALL-CAPS-IDENTIFIERS 19:51:24 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:51:34 Buganini [~buganini@2001:c08:2600::379] has joined #lisp 19:51:43 -!- Buganini [~buganini@2001:c08:2600::379] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:55 wat u gents think of qi? 19:53:57 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@248-10.79-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:10 I don't think of it. 19:54:35 -!- xpf [~xpf@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:54:39 tcr1: I don't know what the use case is, apart from f2cl output. 19:55:22 republican_devil: I've never seen any evidence of anyone using it. But I haven't looked very hard. 19:55:47 I approve of his strategy of implementing a new language on top of Common Lisp. 19:55:57 (i.e. as opposed to some other substrate) 19:56:37 Buganini [~buganini@2001:c08:2600::379] has joined #lisp 19:57:55 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Quit: Love is the law, love under Will.] 19:57:56 -!- Buganini [~buganini@2001:c08:2600::379] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:11 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:00:59 stis [~stis@host-78-79-223-50.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:25 Buganini [~buganini@2001:c08:2600::379] has joined #lisp 20:01:27 orivej [~orivej@host-100-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 20:03:18 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0058.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:03:18 -!- Buganini [~buganini@2001:c08:2600::379] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:06:25 Buganini [~buganini@2001:c08:2600::379] has joined #lisp 20:06:35 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.97.140] has quit [Quit: ] 20:09:44 jeti [~user@p548EB558.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:08 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:10:08 -!- Buganini [~buganini@2001:c08:2600::379] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:11:18 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:11:26 Buganini [~buganini@2001:c08:2600::379] has joined #lisp 20:13:43 while googling, I found out that the LaTeX sources of On Lisp have been released some times ago 20:14:08 infortunately, the ftp link provided is down, and Paul Graham only links a PDF and Postscript on his website 20:14:15 I'd like to try to convert to original source to an ebook 20:14:23 would someone have these original sources ? 20:14:54 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-36.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:56 -!- strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:23:28 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.91.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:43 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@c-24-91-16-174.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 20:26:14 strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:31 -!- ak70 [~user@46.11.81.90] has quit [Quit: go to bed] 20:27:49 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:28:13 stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-209-60.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:28:22 -!- stis [~stis@host-78-79-223-50.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:32:58 macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.212.89] has joined #lisp 20:33:25 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:33:26 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:37:09 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1EB3.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:37:49 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:39:04 NASCAR4Eva [~Ricky@119.224.23.15] has joined #lisp 20:39:09 FUCK! 20:39:12 DERRRRRRRRRRRK 20:39:48 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 20:39:54 you were saying. 20:39:57 FUCK 20:39:58 SHIT 20:39:59 CUNT 20:40:00 ASS 20:40:01 TITS 20:40:02 TIS 20:40:04 BUGGER 20:40:05 -!- antifuchs has set mode +b *!~Ricky@119.224.23.15 20:40:06 -!- NASCAR4Eva [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has been kicked from #lisp by antifuchs (Your behavior is not conducive to the desired environment.) 20:40:11 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:40:43 antifuchs: you're connected since the amazon cloud ? 20:40:50 didn't they allowed irc 20:40:56 don't they? 20:41:02 interesting! 20:41:08 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:41:10 *didn't know, sorry 20:41:11 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:42:05 I didn't see anything in their ToS prohibiting it, and it's useful for a cheap irc-bouncer box 20:42:17 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 20:42:55 I'm just curious, I'm playing with IRC bots (AI interest), and I didn't found a place to host them 20:48:24 zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-206-65.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:48:56 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:50:49 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-134-62.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:51:16 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 20:52:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-208.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:20 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:57:18 -!- billitch [~billitch@87-231-48-244.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:57:56 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:58:17 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:59:02 billitch [~billitch@78.251.63.91] has joined #lisp 20:59:21 slyrus [~chatzilla@173.228.44.88] has joined #lisp 21:00:55 -!- Triplefault [~caleb@adsl-145-219-93.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:08 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 21:01:45 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 21:01:54 markskilbeck [~markskilb@host81-152-162-37.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:54 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@host81-152-162-37.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:01:54 markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has joined #lisp 21:03:50 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-90-235-209-60.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:29 galdor: you can run them on any irc server, just use your own channel. 21:04:41 eg.: /join #galdorbots 21:08:35 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 21:09:15 pjb: some hosting providers forbid irc activity 21:09:21 pjb: planet lisp is hosted on a company with such a policy 21:10:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:11:13 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:29 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-169-22.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:46 -!- pirx is now known as pirxs 21:12:05 nearly all hosting companies don't want anything about irc 21:12:11 that's quite infortunate 21:12:45 rackspace cloud has no policy about irc clients, afaik 21:13:02 been using it for irc-bouncing for a long time 21:13:06 good to know 21:13:24 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-167-237.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:13:30 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:14:45 -!- vsedach [~user@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:19:18 Xach: Indeed, Minitel 2.0 is bad. 21:19:35 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:39 galdor: you can run your bots on your own computers! 21:19:46 you SHOULD! 21:20:18 galdor: If you are at univ, just leave it running on their machines :P 21:20:39 Everybody should have fixed IP addresses. 21:20:54 pjb: IPv6 to the rescue? 21:20:57 Everybody should run their own web, email, ftp, etc. 21:21:00 end-to-end connectivity? what a radical notion! 21:21:09 drdo: in any case, IPv4 is done already. 21:21:21 pjb: Oh boy, you are so wrong 21:21:34 ISPs won't move an inch until shit is really bad 21:21:42 drdo: google for Minitel 2.0 and read and watch what Benjamin Bayart has to say about it! 21:21:49 drdo: use google translate it's all in French. 21:21:59 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:16 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:22:18 pjb: Google can translate videos? 21:22:18 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:22:26 Learn French. 21:22:37 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:24:13 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:24:17 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:24:34 pjb: Does upload cost ISPs more? 21:25:24 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.86.144] has joined #lisp 21:26:34 The IP technology is designed to implement meshed networks. Why is that the Internet we have is a star network? 21:27:12 oh sir bayard lol 21:27:37 this is the guy who wants real peer to peer internet right ? 21:27:45 The problem, in countries like France, is that people are forbidden to extend communication likes (wired or not) accross the streets or accross properties. 21:28:14 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-29-226.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:28:16 pjb: What? 21:28:17 By law, we must go thru the monopoly to communicate one with another, because we're in police states, and the police needs to listen to what we say. 21:28:26 Are you serious? 21:28:36 unlike in the U.S where I've heard about people doing local RF networks for free; right ? 21:28:37 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-29-226.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 21:28:46 So if have a network with my neighbour i'm breaking the law? 21:28:48 Yes. Otherwise, instead of connecting with an ISP star network, we'd just interconnect our ethenets with routers to our neighbors. 21:29:00 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-146-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:00 drdo: in France and countries with similar laws, yes. 21:29:14 gosh I almost did this in my neighboorhood lol 21:29:15 That's fucked up 21:29:22 In the USA, I don't know, but I don't see people interconnecting their own network themselves a lot... 21:29:30 I'm from Portugal 21:29:58 There was articles about people doing a big free cheap RF network.. I can't recall anything more precise though 21:30:01 For example, people complained that google listened to wifi packets and kept them in their databases. But in France, it is forbidden to let your wifi leak outside of your property. 21:30:03 were* 21:30:13 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-169-52.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:30:18 pjb: That can't be right 21:30:19 You should adjust the power of your wifi so that nobody in the street can use it. 21:30:35 Surely France doesn't require everyone to shield their houses? 21:30:39 my computer doesn't run 24h/24 21:30:39 I have a soekris, but it's running openbsd 21:30:57 -!- cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:30:58 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 21:31:09 galdor: that's the law. Of course, in France we have so many contradictory laws, inappliable laws, and unapplied laws... 21:31:38 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@209.119.73.178] has joined #lisp 21:31:43 pjb: Has anyone been in trouble before because of that law? 21:31:58 drdo: that's beside the point. 21:32:07 Anyone know of a web based Scheme formatter? 21:32:19 The point is if the state is not happy with what you say, what you communicate, they have a ton of laws to put you in jail. 21:32:44 pjb: I had no idea it was like that there 21:32:51 *agumonkey* can't make NSA jokes anymore 21:33:40 drdo: anyways, you can become an ISP. What Bayart explains is that it doesn't cost much to establish an association and become an ISP, and gain some freedom from the censure big ISP do. 21:34:12 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:34:24 pjb: But you shouldn't have to have to do that :S 21:34:36 pjb: Is it also illegal there to use something like a walkie talkie? 21:34:38 drdo: Another way, would be to have municipalities manage the IP connectivity. Cities would interconnect with their neighbors, and we'd have a full meshed network covering the whole country. 21:34:51 so it's the only way to build your on public network ? 21:35:10 drdo: indeed it's highly regimented. There are strict rules on the power of the walkies and you need a license to run anything beyond toys. 21:35:47 pjb: What about encryption? 21:35:58 Is it illegal to use it? 21:36:54 It was. They changed it because they couldn't prevent it really. But more to the point, they realized that it was easy enough to evedrop at either end, so they didn't need to decrypt the communication. 21:37:21 but the french gvt is so technically retarded; the anti piracy system is a failure 21:37:29 Offline Scheme formatter perhaps? 21:37:50 They're not alone. Most european countries are similar, and the USA are close too, they influence a lot european policy. 21:38:01 What do you mean, SegFaultAX? 21:38:15 pjb: Now that you talk about it, i'm not even sure if it's not the same here 21:38:30 But i mean, there's really no way they are going to enforce those laws 21:39:00 Bike: Just need to reformat a chunk of lisp. 21:39:12 It's like that law here that gives you 3 years in jail for downloading copyrighted material 21:39:24 It has never been enforced 21:39:27 steevy [~steevy@95-89-218-109-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:28 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-218-109-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:39:51 SegFaultAX : emacs does not satisfy ? 21:40:00 agumonkey: I don't use emacs. 21:40:23 Although I'm looking at Limp right now. 21:40:41 what is Limp ? 21:40:48 *agumonkey* noob-style 21:41:10 -!- rillo [~user@89.204.137.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:41:11 agumonkey: Apparently it's a vim plugin to help with lisp development in vim. 21:42:21 i'm always amazed at how many people choose to swim against the tide. 21:42:29 Aight. Im just spreading untested claims, but it seemed that emacs has it easy with lispy syntax where vim might fail on long piece of codes 21:42:51 Fade: I'm just used to vim is all, I have no particular reason other than comfort to switch to emacs. 21:43:26 well, except that emacs is the natural enviornment for editing lisp code, at least these days. :) 21:43:35 SegFaultAX : you could just use emacs for a batch formatting and then keep viming 21:44:09 agumonkey: Well, how would I go about formatting lisp (particularly Scheme) with emacs? 21:44:55 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@85.100.72.59] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:45:24 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:45:34 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:19 C-x h M-x indent-region RET 21:46:45 jeti: Sorry, vim user here, can you help me interpret that? 21:47:17 C-x is Ctrl X 21:47:40 -!- rmarians1i [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:47:45 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:46 h is h 21:47:52 see also C-M-\ 21:48:18 SegFaultAX : is your scheme code public ? 21:48:22 Fade: Control + Shift + M + \ ? 21:48:34 control alt \ 21:48:40 on a standard pc keyboard. 21:48:55 it's bound to indent-region 21:48:57 So is C-x different from C-X? 21:49:13 M stands for meta ( lets say its the ALT key nowadays ) 21:49:14 a region being a block 'selected' in the editor 21:49:20 Better yet, do you have a preferred newbie emacs tutorial? 21:49:33 emacs is self documenting 21:49:38 it comes with a tutorial built in. 21:49:40 C-h t 21:50:03 Ctrl h then t 21:50:15 like vimtutor 21:50:20 Agh, hjkl doesn't work. 21:50:24 lool 21:50:26 -!- rme [rme@clozure-521E9C7B.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 21:50:35 -!- rme [~rme@70.104.117.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:50:42 I guess there is no normal mode? :) 21:50:52 normality... 21:51:00 well, this is where this conversation usually gets funneled into a discussion of various vi[m] modes for emacs 21:51:08 then it gets declared off topic 21:51:44 but at least somebody has been working on slimv which is slime for vim 21:51:48 http://kovisoft.bitbucket.org/tutorial.html 21:51:59 I have no idea how 'good' it is. 21:52:00 Fade: How can I make emacs open in the terminal? Typing emacs seems to force it into GUI mode. 21:52:08 not even bill joy uses vi anymore. ;) 21:52:11 emacd -nw 21:52:15 emacs -nw 21:52:29 *agumonkey* cant type for his life 21:53:38 Using the arrow keys makes me feel dirty. Is that normal? 21:53:54 yes 21:53:57 no idea. have you showered recently? 21:54:55 emacs tutorial will show you hjkl-like ideas 21:54:55 run through the tutorial 21:54:56 SegFaultAX: Every time you move your hands to press the arrow keys, you should feel that you are wasting precious time of your life doing nothing 21:55:25 drdo: I do feel that way. I'm not sure emacs is the editor for me. 21:55:26 personally, i'm generally annoyed by programs that don't obey emacs command keys. 21:55:42 SegFaultAX: You don't use arrow keys in emacs 21:55:56 once you remap capslock to be another ctrl, everything falls into place. 21:56:05 drdo: hjkl didn't work for me. 21:56:25 SegFaultAX: hjkl will insert hjkl 21:56:42 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-81-212.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:46 SegFaultAX: what you're talking about doesn't make sense in emacs, because emacs doesn't have a command mode. 21:56:53 you're always in edit mode. 21:57:04 or always in command mode 21:57:12 think of all the time you'll save not reflexively hitting esc. ;) 21:57:13 with a special self-insert one 21:57:34 Fade: I heard vim people remap capslock to esc 21:57:39 all advanced editors bottoms to the same 21:57:40 Fade: Keyword - reflexively. It's already part of me, so I don't notice. Haha. 21:57:47 *Fade* chuckles 21:57:58 SegFaultAX: C-n C-p C-f C-b 21:58:03 these are the movement keys in emacs 21:58:14 mnemonics for next previous forward and back 21:58:19 drdo: You hold control the whole time? 21:58:25 SegFaultAX: yes 21:58:39 drdo: Doesn't your hand get tired? 21:58:39 but my control is capslock 21:58:40 commands are explicitly signalled by a command key 21:58:52 SegFaultAX: no, it's really easy to hold capslock with your left pinkie 21:59:13 I don't know any emacs user who doesn't remap capslock. 21:59:16 for that reason. 21:59:18 It's not like you hold control all the time anyway 21:59:23 *agumonkey* +1 drdo 21:59:31 and it's not like you actually move using those keys most of the time 21:59:42 It's more common to move words by word or sexp by sexp 21:59:44 *word 21:59:55 or just mass search 21:59:59 just like in vim i guess 22:00:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:00:18 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:23 SegFaultAX: there's also viper mode with various levels of vim compatibility so you can start from the most compatible mode and progress until you are using emacs normally 22:01:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:02:37 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:02 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:29 -!- faux [~user@213.112.156.33] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:08 Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-76-211.w92-143.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:09:38 if you have (defun fn (x y) (* x y)), and want to declare the args as floats, but accept ints, would you just coerce and setf the param? 22:10:46 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:11:00 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:11:05 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:12:30 benny [~benny@i577A1136.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:41 of if declare can only be at the top of the fun, make a macro that coerces first, then call fn? 22:13:28 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 22:13:42 italic: If you want to accept either floating-point numbers or integers, why bother with declare at all? 22:14:08 Was thinking the same 22:14:09 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:14:29 i was told it was a part of optimizing. is this wrong? 22:14:50 -!- rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:15:10 italic: Why do you want to accept integers? 22:15:32 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Client Quit] 22:15:45 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:15:48 it's a point class in a lib, so the user can pass (point x y) 22:16:13 Then why do you want to restrict it to floats? 22:16:45 from what i understand it's better to declare as a single-float 22:17:10 rotty [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:14 -!- wzergw [~hynek@ip-62-245-66-12.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:17:36 i was just doing a check-type as a real 22:18:06 because i do want to throw an error if passed something unusable 22:18:29 Then you should use check-type 22:19:11 What you can do is keep the API accepting any real, coerce to float and use only floats internally 22:19:33 DECLAREing float where appropriate 22:21:05 so i'd have 2 create-point functions, my internal that accepts floats, and the api which coerces? 22:21:28 that's a possibility 22:21:53 You would probably have to do it anyway if your code also uses that point function 22:22:03 but i can't coerce and declare in the same function? 22:22:05 Because you wouldn't want to check-type 22:22:31 right 22:23:54 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-206-65.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:04 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-70-46.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:23 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:25:37 -!- markskilbeck [~markskilb@unaffiliated/markskilbeck] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:25:57 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:06 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:26:53 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:27:39 Is anyone using :test-not in this day and age?... I'm considering writing a macro similar to PUSHNEW and wondering if I should support it or not... 22:28:09 I wouldn't bother with that 22:28:19 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 22:28:19 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 22:28:19 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 22:28:34 test-not is deprecated anyway 22:30:29 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:30:54 -!- Fare [~Fare@206.83.64.178.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:31:16 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 22:31:21 Yeah, I know that it's deprecated, but FOO-IF-NOT is deprecated too yet "everyone" uses it... (does anyone always use COMPLEMENT instead?) 22:31:33 Mococa [~Mococa@187.58.12.208] has joined #lisp 22:32:00 I never use it 22:32:02 deprecation is deprecated 22:32:13 I always use complement 22:32:31 I also love compose and curry/rcurry from alexandria 22:33:31 I always used COMPLEMENT back in my more idealistic days ;P 22:33:35 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:34:14 Hexstream: How's loopless? 22:34:42 drdo: I kinda got sidetracked with some stuff... 22:35:06 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.251.63.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:35:57 I'll definitely make a Loopless 1.1 (and maybe even other 1.x's) before doing Loopless 2.0. Else it's just too much at once. 22:36:14 -!- ec|jaculated is now known as elliottcable 22:37:06 For now I'm finishing my process-declarations library, which will make it nearly trivial to correctly handle all declarations, with a nice intuitive compact query interface... 22:38:33 bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:12 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:38 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@252.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:50 -!- pnq [~nick@host-164.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:43:13 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.11.65] has joined #lisp 22:46:18 jeti` [~user@p54B47B62.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:19 billitch [~billitch@87-231-48-244.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 22:49:09 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:49:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:49:28 amb007 [~a_bakic@252.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:44 -!- jeti [~user@p548EB558.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:52:43 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 22:54:03 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:54:29 How does it relate to parse-declarations? 22:54:45 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:56:14 Xach: Loopless?... 22:56:30 process-declarations 22:56:40 Ohh, sorry, I misread that as process-declarations. 22:58:17 beelike [maln@93-138-111-184.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:58:17 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-164.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:25 Good question! I of course had a look at parse-declarations... My first reaction, as always, was "Not Invented Here!". But regardless, it did seem a bit complicated to use. Just a feeling that you had to do quite a bit of reading the documentation and trying things out to figure out things... I believe I could do much better than that. 22:58:29 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.11.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:59:56 would someone mind looking at this snippet: http://pastebin.com/Hkhfz6kK 23:00:46 are those check-types necessary? or is a given int already being converted since i declared the slot as single-float? 23:01:12 type declarations on slots won't cause any type conversion 23:02:07 so i'm correct in getting the slot and coercing them back 23:03:30 why am I getting warning with this loop example? http://ideone.com/qaWv4 (paste.lisp.org is down) 23:03:36 You could convert (if %id (check-type %id string)) to (check-type %id (or null string)) 23:03:40 italic: the usual way of doing that sort of thing is to expose a smart constructor function 23:03:41 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:03:45 man. when c-l.net is down it is really... noticable. 23:04:07 italic: if you tell the compiler that you'll only store single-floats in that slot, your code might actually break if you don't store single-floats in there 23:04:17 And I'm not sure this % convention is necessary, you could just use normal names and not export them from the package... 23:05:00 and agree with pkhuong; a dedicated constructor is usually the way to go. 23:05:02 antifuchs: that's what i'm wondering, sine the init method runs after the slots are set, could that potentially break 23:05:30 I'm pretty sure it's undefined behavior if you store stuff in slots with incompatible type declarations 23:05:35 And you could perhaps use type declarations instead of calling check-type, anyway most good implementations have a "declarations-as-assertion" policy unless you play with optimize safety and speed settings... 23:05:39 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:05:56 sbcl and cmucl do that; I'm not sure many others do. 23:06:01 -!- agumonkey [~agumonkey@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:06:44 so i shouldn't to type checking in the init-instance method, but in a special constructor 23:06:47 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.100.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:44 antifuchs: Oh. Well, they should! I used to be pretty terrified of using type declarations because the standard says that anything can happen if you violate them, but since I learned SBCL has declarations-as-assertions, I'm now much more liberal about using them. It makes the code more robust by default and faster if I later use optimize speed... Double win! 23:07:56 Oh, and it's also a form of documentation. Triple win! 23:08:15 heh, well. not everyone has a compiler as slo^H^Hmart as sbcl (-: 23:08:24 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.100.75] has joined #lisp 23:08:57 -!- prip [~foo@host188-121-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:12:10 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:13:27 cesarbp_ [~chatzilla@189.247.100.75] has joined #lisp 23:15:11 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.100.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:15:24 -!- cesarbp_ is now known as cesarbp 23:17:22 -!- Patagous [970fd7b2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.15.215.178] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:18:04 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:18:31 Hum. Is (find '((multiple tests)) '(multiple tests) :test (print #'eql) :test (print #'equal)) really perfectly legal? Not even a style warning?... 23:18:59 Hexstream: The return value of PRINT is well-specified. 23:20:18 Xach: I know that, the point was to illustrate that both :test's are evaluated, which was what I was expecting, I just used PRINT to make that clear. The point is, what the semantics of multiple :test args shoud be: Just use the first one or throw an error or warning? 23:20:57 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:58 prip [~foo@host188-121-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:21:35 Hexstream: when multiple keyword arguments are provided, the leftmost is used, I believe. At least that's the case when APPLY is involved, I'll have to double-check for normal call. 23:21:38 calls, rather. 23:21:43 Looking back, I think I frequently didn't correctly handle a multiply-specified keyword argument in my macros :( 23:21:46 multiple duplicate. 23:23:01 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:23:45 Yes, now that I think about it, FIND being just a normal function, that's the correct behavior. I guess I got confused by things like, how DEFCLASS handles multiple keyword arguments in a way that is not "the first instance of that keyword shadows the other ones". 23:27:24 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:28:42 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:29:40 -!- mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-70-46.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:29:41 Ah god. Evaluated keyword arguments in macros really get the "wrong behavior" by default. Like, if you have &key test, and test is evaluated, you really must use &rest key-args &key test to make sure you evaluate all instances of test... and of course there's also :allow-other-keys that can creep up anywhere and which you must evaluate... (right?). 23:30:02 my brain just exploded 23:30:06 excuse me 23:30:10 mark__ [~markskilb@host86-137-70-46.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:30:40 Hexstream: what instances of test? 23:31:07 -!- ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:12 pjb: All of them? Instances of the :test argument in a macro that accepts such a keyword argument? 23:31:24 Consider PUSHNEW, for instance. 23:31:45 -!- elliottcable is now known as dickheadcable 23:31:52 pushnew takes a single test argument. 23:31:56 The naive way to implement that would have a lambda list something like (item place &key key test test-not). 23:32:12 But if you pass multiple :test arguments, despite using only the first one it must evaluate them all. 23:32:40 I see what you mean. Yes, you need to collect all the arguments to have them evaluated. 23:33:30 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:37:03 -!- dickheadcable is now known as elliottcable 23:38:23 elliottcable: amusing some other channel? 23:38:48 lbc_ [~quassel@1908ds1-aboes.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 23:39:55 Xach: that. 23:40:29 irc is bad! 23:40:47 Hexstream: but wait! what about if you have a macro like (defmacro foo (&key bar baz) ...) and it's called like (foo :baz (setf quux 42) :bar (setf quux 51))? 23:41:29 The arguments must still be evaluated from left to right. But only once! :-) 23:41:39 Xach: Easy. Use a &rest arg and iterate over that in order while macroexpanding. 23:41:47 (foo :baz (setf quux 42) :bar (setf quux 51) :bar (setf quux 63)) 23:42:18 *Xach* will use &whole 23:42:21 I figured that "a long time ago", right about when I decided that some features of Loopless 2.0 would use evaluated macro keyword arguments extensively. 23:42:22 --> (progn :baz (setf quux 42) :bar (setf quux 51) :bar (setf quux 63) (do-something-with :bar 51 :baz 42)) 23:43:04 Hexstream: it's really a matter of specification of your macro. You could exclude duplicates. 23:43:17 And you could rule that the bar expression is evaluated before the baz one. 23:43:41 pjb: Yes, that's two things I would not be inclined to do unless I have to. 23:44:10 But this is a good point. I'm sure not a lot of macros in libraries do that. 23:44:37 I like to make my macros work as much like a normal function call as feasible, basically. Evaluate everything that makes sense to evaluate, always evaluate as most things as possible once and from left to right in the order they appear. 23:45:29 if it looks like a function, works like a function, why can't it be a function? 23:45:35 And of course, just making it a function is even better, perhaps with a compiler-macro. 23:46:30 Well we may assume there are some macro-like arguments before or after. 23:46:44 stassats: Well, you have things like PUSHNEW which are really just like a function but with a twist, it needs to modify a place. 23:47:07 (mac (var :foo (incf i) :bar (incf i) :bar (incf i)) (print i) (print var)) 23:47:50 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173.228.44.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:48:43 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:55 Hexstream: so, expand it to a function with a twist? like (twist (function ...)) 23:49:15 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:21 right, the simplest way to get function-like evaluation is to expand to a function call. 23:49:37 Xach: I don't understand why you'd use &whole instead of &rest in that case... It seems like it's just less explicit and you'll have to skip the first parameter (the name of the macro)... 23:49:46 Hexstream: humor. 23:49:53 Ah, ok. 23:50:55 Bike_ [~arm@69.166.35.237] has joined #lisp 23:51:19 -!- Bike [~arm@69.166.35.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:51:24 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 23:51:39 You often (?) say things that seem weird at first but ultimately completely make sense, so I got confused there. 23:52:10 That's one to put on the ol' resume. 23:53:08 That seems weird at first. Now I have to see if it ultimately completely makes sense... 23:53:42 -!- jeti` [~user@p54B47B62.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:54:17 At that pace, I'll completely master the whole of Common Lisp well before I master your sense of humor. 23:54:25 if your &whole is inside (), you don't need to discard the macro name, and it's better because you can catch required and optional arguments with it too and still have a good lambda list 23:54:50 (meaning (defmacro foo ((&whole whole foo bar &key la-la)) ...)) 23:55:31 (defmacro foo ((&whole evaluated foo bar &key la-la)) ...) 23:55:54 Yeah, &whole is nice to preserve lambda lists. 23:56:18 too bad functions don't have it 23:58:33 Hum. Would it have the function name as first argument?? Could be problematic for lambdas... Or do you mean a kind of modified &rest? 23:59:10 maybe 23:59:39 (nil (arg1 arg2) body1 body2)