00:01:40 sellout [~Adium@184-201-43-219.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:55 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:02:06 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:02:18 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:02:47 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:44 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 00:04:44 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 00:04:44 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 00:08:03 xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 00:10:35 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:50 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-136-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:10:54 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:14:43 Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has joined #lisp 00:15:43 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@46.205.1.194.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:17:29 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.180] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:17:32 -!- mk2` [~user@cpc7-lewi14-2-0-cust39.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18:19 Lectus [~chatzilla@189.104.250.44] has joined #lisp 00:18:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:20:43 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:21:58 pnq [~nick@ACA209B9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:31 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 00:23:57 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:58 Hello! I want to learn Lisp. I need an implementation that's portable (at least Windows and Linux), generates native code or at least a standalone executable and provides GUI functions. What implementation should I use? 00:24:08 wanderingelf [~matt@c-71-61-22-64.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:48 Lectus: LispWorks. 00:25:00 is it free? 00:25:15 -!- Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:25:15 No. 00:25:26 there's a free gimped version, i thought 00:26:12 Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has joined #lisp 00:27:02 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:27:16 Lectus: you can also try Clozure CL with Cocotron, but ther be dragons 00:27:27 LW is really worth its price, though (IMHO) 00:27:51 and the personal version would be enough to learn lisp 00:28:13 (and develop an app to the point of needing LW professional) 00:30:33 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:32:01 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.154] has joined #lisp 00:32:21 convulsive [~convulsiv@129.133.193.182] has joined #lisp 00:43:41 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-24.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:45:07 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:45:16 Lectus: most people who use Lisp use SBCL. But their first priorities are probably not "standalone cross-platform GUI executables" 00:46:21 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:46:36 for those whose top priority is a sweet GUI they can sell, lispworks does seem to be the top choice 00:47:01 *Xach* uses sbcl to power websites 00:47:11 benny [~benny@i577A84B3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:47:53 most people here, you mean :) 00:48:09 p_l|backup: most people who use lisp in general. 00:48:22 common lisp, of course 00:48:32 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:43 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:49:02 sbcl loses money on every sale but makes up for it in volume 00:50:15 *Xach* suspects emacs lisp might be the most-used lisp 00:50:38 what does that second to last comment mean? 00:50:51 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:51:19 Bike: it is a joke 00:54:04 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.116.44] has joined #lisp 00:55:42 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:59 Kolo [4c5b1018@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.91.16.24] has joined #lisp 00:58:03 hello 00:58:26 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:00 Does anyone know how to split a list of integers into two lists of every possible combination? For example, given list (1 2 3), the answer would be something like (((1 2 3) ()) ((1 2) (3)) ((1 3) (2)) ((1) (2 3))) 01:01:39 Not (() (1 2 3))? 01:01:50 no, because it's the same as ((1 2 3) ()) 01:02:03 order doesnt even matter within the lists 01:03:11 the only thing I have so far is something that moves the last item in the left list to the right list 01:03:44 so given (1 2 3) it would output just ((1 2) (3)), ((1) (2 3)), and ((), (1 2 3)) 01:03:55 err sorry extra comma in that last result :s 01:04:15 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 01:09:28 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:09:47 Xach: I think AutoLISP is comparable to elisp in use 01:09:50 kolo: You could maybe take the floor of the length of the list divided by two, calling it n, and then for x 0 to n, enumerate all possible sublists of length x along with the set difference from the whole list? 01:10:41 -!- qyqxt [~user@183.12.146.93] has quit [Quit: leave] 01:11:15 im not sure how to go about it 01:11:29 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:11:30 as in, I was thinking of doing something like a tree approach 01:11:48 but i think that would give me a lot of redundancy in the results 01:12:05 it wouldnt really hurt unless the lists are long - just a waste of memory :( 01:12:41 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:14 -!- Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:17:30 Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has joined #lisp 01:17:48 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.96.89] has joined #lisp 01:18:08 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21:54 -!- ec|jaculated is now known as elliottcable 01:22:06 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 01:25:05 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:36:41 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@76.194.209.80] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:37:09 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has joined #lisp 01:40:04 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:33 -!- wanderingelf [~matt@c-71-61-22-64.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:58 -!- Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:42:38 Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has joined #lisp 01:42:57 Ok, I guess a simpler question I can ask is, how would I implement something that retrieves every possible combination of 3 elements from a list of say 5 elements? 01:43:04 so the resulting list will have (5 choose 3) lists in it 01:45:15 gigamonkey [~user@99.24.219.24] has joined #lisp 01:45:48 Kolo: see alexandria:map-compbinations 01:45:55 *map-combinations 01:47:12 mephisto [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:45 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:05 got it 01:48:25 Kolo: http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/alexandria/alexandria.git;a=blob;f=sequences.lisp;h=f1e3f506f3e40cbd3d4392f6d623e4afe6efdb00;hb=HEAD#l353 01:48:46 thanks, that really helps! 01:48:58 Kolo: Sure. :) 01:50:14 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 01:50:14 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 01:50:14 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 01:50:20 alright will report result later hehe 01:50:47 -!- Kolo [4c5b1018@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.91.16.24] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:53:19 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-235-180.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:54:58 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:23 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:58:35 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:33 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:23 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10:09 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:10:33 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:10:44 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:10:55 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA209B9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:11:18 -!- sellout [~Adium@184-201-43-219.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:11:32 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:13:05 Guest38073 [~Adium@184.201.43.219] has joined #lisp 02:15:27 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:16 -!- urandom__ [~user@84.138.95.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18:40 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:13 pnq [~nick@ACA22A1E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:48 -!- xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:24:53 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:29:32 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:32:37 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 02:37:38 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 02:39:54 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:40:21 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:40:48 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 02:41:51 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:45:52 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:46:40 tritchey [~tritchey@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:45 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 02:47:30 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has joined #lisp 02:51:34 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:51:53 xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:01 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:58:12 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 03:03:28 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:05:40 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:08:14 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 03:10:15 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:10:48 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:11:49 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:18 JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has joined #lisp 03:14:26 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:19:48 ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has joined #lisp 03:21:29 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:22:58 -!- ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has left #lisp 03:23:14 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 03:26:07 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.116.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:27:00 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:27:58 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:29:00 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-2-18.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 03:34:39 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:34 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:40 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-207.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:38:01 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-187-135.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:39:09 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-187-135.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48:31 -!- Lectus [~chatzilla@189.104.250.44] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0/20110318052756]] 03:48:46 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-187-135.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:55:10 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has joined #lisp 03:57:08 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:57:33 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:58:37 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:49 -!- wormphle2m [~wormphleg@c-98-234-186-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:59:24 -!- tippenein [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110323142937]] 04:03:11 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:03:29 Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has joined #lisp 04:03:44 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:55 -!- Guest38073 [~Adium@184.201.43.219] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:04:07 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.220] has joined #lisp 04:11:30 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 04:11:30 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 04:11:30 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 04:11:50 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Client Quit] 04:17:59 ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has joined #lisp 04:18:07 -!- ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has left #lisp 04:18:16 sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:18:55 -!- mephisto [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:21:37 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 04:24:12 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gspuvbgkgpqwwhsy] has joined #lisp 04:25:05 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:25:06 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:21 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.152.79] has joined #lisp 04:29:26 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 04:30:23 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:34:41 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:37:45 -!- lambdadaniel [~kvirc@71.138.132.156] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 04:41:57 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 04:45:09 ghiu [~gu@dynamic-adsl-94-36-67-168.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 04:45:25 -!- ghiu [~gu@dynamic-adsl-94-36-67-168.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Client Quit] 04:50:05 ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has joined #lisp 04:50:26 -!- ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has left #lisp 04:54:24 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:58:10 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-113-106.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:01:10 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.152.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:02:07 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-36.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:09:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:09:57 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 05:10:45 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-54-64.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:59 realitygrill [~realitygr@24.208.248.193] has joined #lisp 05:11:21 evening 05:12:10 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 05:12:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 05:12:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:13:48 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:15:25 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 05:15:54 tritchey [~tritchey@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:27 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:24 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 05:21:38 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-puaghiiocxfwwpez] has joined #lisp 05:22:38 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-135-132.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 05:26:15 ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has joined #lisp 05:26:28 -!- ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has left #lisp 05:31:00 ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has joined #lisp 05:32:42 -!- ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has left #lisp 05:33:42 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-136-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:35:41 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:36:38 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 05:37:10 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:37:12 ehu [~ehuels@87.212.64.118] has joined #lisp 05:37:21 psilord1 [~psilord@70.226.162.110] has joined #lisp 05:38:07 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@24.208.248.193] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 05:39:13 dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:12 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:41:16 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:31 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:44:41 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:45:55 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:46:41 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-186-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:49:41 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:51:01 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:51:06 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:29 ltriant [~ltriant@110.174.168.43] has joined #lisp 05:52:55 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:54:32 -!- cheezus [~Adium@76-10-136-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:55:31 gko [~gko@114-136-225-75.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:39 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 05:58:43 -!- lichtblau [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:58:49 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:58:54 lichtblau [~user@91.65.223.81] has joined #lisp 05:58:56 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:01:47 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:02:27 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 06:08:12 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:08:43 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.213] has joined #lisp 06:08:51 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.213] has quit [Changing host] 06:08:51 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 06:09:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@87.212.64.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:09:47 nefo [~nefo@202.112.3.6] has joined #lisp 06:09:47 -!- nefo [~nefo@202.112.3.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:09:47 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 06:12:18 DrZoidberg [~lol@h31.37.90.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:38 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has joined #lisp 06:14:59 TeMPOraL [~user@178.180.20.127.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 06:15:02 nefo_ [~nefo@2001:da8:225:103:21f:3aff:fe0e:b994] has joined #lisp 06:15:56 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has joined #lisp 06:15:56 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:7a2b:cbff:fed0:c11c] has quit [Changing host] 06:15:56 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:16:18 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:17:39 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 06:18:14 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:18:33 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:18:41 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:37 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.134.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:19:51 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:20:51 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:23:02 -!- Bike [~aeshtaer@71-38-154-233.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:26:29 splittist [~splittist@190-247.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:26:32 morning 06:26:58 morning 06:28:59 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:29:48 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:29:59 good morning 06:32:21 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:33:01 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:37 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:35:16 -!- gko [~gko@114-136-225-75.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:35:39 gko [~gko@111.81.133.137] has joined #lisp 06:38:29 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has joined #lisp 06:39:11 zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-192-164.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:39:39 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:39:39 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:39:47 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 06:40:22 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:41:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-135-132.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:41:44 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:29 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-192-164.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:43:50 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 06:44:11 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.86.246] has joined #lisp 06:46:11 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:47:21 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:46 -!- DrZoidberg [~lol@h31.37.90.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:49:37 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:50:54 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 06:52:11 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:53:10 how can i create a gensymed symbol for a label in maxima, say i want to have an eqq:ax²+bx+c, but want the name eqq or eq actually be an automatically named one 06:54:55 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:59:47 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:08:26 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:09:09 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 07:09:42 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:10:46 -!- lundis [~lundis@dyn56-304.yok.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:11:19 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-oznrjvcqluaxvrhv] has joined #lisp 07:11:48 lundis [~lundis@86.50.67.48] has joined #lisp 07:12:02 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:12:26 ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has joined #lisp 07:13:27 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:14:14 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:55 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22A1E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:16:22 jso [~user@cpe-76-176-206-114.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:22 -!- ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has left #lisp 07:17:22 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:24:35 damn, it's obvious it's lisp! http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011/march/cryptanalysis_032911 ;-) 07:25:25 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-39.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:03 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@178.180.20.127.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:30:03 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:30:04 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:30:04 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:30:35 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110.174.168.43] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:30:57 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 07:31:07 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:31:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.86.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:32:01 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 07:32:02 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 07:32:40 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-210-34.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 07:38:47 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-156-121.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:47 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:40:10 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:01 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:43:13 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-76-243.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:43:51 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 07:45:03 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:45:59 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:46:11 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-57-197.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:47:31 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:51:02 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 07:51:49 -!- nefo_ [~nefo@2001:da8:225:103:21f:3aff:fe0e:b994] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:52:43 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 07:55:57 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:57:18 -!- jso [~user@cpe-76-176-206-114.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:58:46 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 08:03:37 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:03:43 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75556b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:01 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:08:05 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 08:09:05 jso [~user@cpe-76-176-206-114.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:48 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:30 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 08:13:10 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:14:14 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 08:17:00 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:05 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 08:18:51 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:20:06 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 08:20:27 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:22:25 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75556b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:22:40 slash_ [~unknown@pD955E5FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:28 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:25:45 amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has joined #lisp 08:26:30 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gspuvbgkgpqwwhsy] has left #lisp 08:27:40 how do i feed the lisp equivalent call to lisp again with maxima ? 08:28:51 i'm shown (($listofvars) $eqq) for the last call, but when i feed it to lisp with :lisp (($listofvars) '$eqq) i'm thrown into debugger and i event can't return to maxima despite me calling 0 (return to maxima) at the debugger 08:29:05 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:30:37 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:30:55 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 08:32:21 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jtzmmuvejzipvhma] has joined #lisp 08:35:15 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:35:58 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 08:36:32 ... this is going to sound very silly, but how do i rewind a file? 08:36:39 homie: there's a manual for maxima. 08:36:49 Landr: file-position 08:37:14 thanks 08:40:58 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:41:06 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 08:43:36 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:43:51 orivej_ [~orivej@host-29-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 08:44:29 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:45:08 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-26-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:45:31 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 08:48:07 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 08:49:01 are property-list lookups done via hash-tables? 08:49:19 Landr: no, they are done via property lists 08:49:42 that makes sense I guess :\ 08:50:22 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-242-126.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:50:39 Landr: See get. 08:51:03 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:51:04 get? 08:51:07 ah, get 08:51:28 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:51:31 Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 08:52:12 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-125-71.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:25 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-76-243.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:53:44 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:55:02 -!- amirhoshangi [~amir@95.38.52.69] has left #lisp 08:55:28 ramkrsna_ [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-vrqfmqacayfojwmv] has joined #lisp 08:57:07 zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-5-72.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:58:58 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:59:37 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-aczslmqbbbbbhidc] has joined #lisp 09:00:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-210-34.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:05:00 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.96.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:05:04 -!- Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:18 Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 09:07:04 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:07:49 drl_ [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 09:12:00 -!- Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:40 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:12:45 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 09:13:57 -!- JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has quit [Quit: Out] 09:17:38 oh man various maxima packages aren't reentrant 09:18:03 give errors with either already loaded or hinder maxima to get back to repl form the debugger 09:21:00 Um. What does it mean for a package to be re-entrant? 09:21:17 Maybe you are confusing files with packages? 09:21:31 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 09:22:02 Landr: it's faster to search a (short) property list sequentially than to search a hash-table. 09:22:49 Landr: (short = anything between 5 and 35 depending on the implementation and target machine). 09:22:54 yes, so i'll keep the items themselves plists, but i'll put them in a hash table 09:23:04 -!- convulsive [~convulsiv@129.133.193.182] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:23:07 well, having load(atensor) laod(ctensor) in my maxima-init.mac gives those are already loaded error from within the debugger and there are other packages, which when i don't remove them from the init file for maxima hinder maxima to reenter the repl from the debugger units, vect, qual and dimen for example exhibit that behaviour 09:23:17 though the trouble with that is i can't find a function that'll give me all the items present in the table 09:23:17 Landr: ??? 09:23:19 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:23:19 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 09:23:19 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:23:28 pjb: small database project :> 09:23:42 maphash 09:23:47 hi 09:23:59 alexandria and cesarum have functions to collect just the keys, or just the values too. 09:24:02 please I'm trying to install clem using (asdf-install:install 'clem) 09:24:18 but it couldn't find it on the cliki site 09:24:18 Landr: do you really want a list of all keys? Ain't it better to iterate over them, either with loop, iter or whatever? 09:24:24 Posterdati: antiquated! 09:24:30 Posterdati: nowadays, we use quicklisp. 09:24:39 o-O? 09:24:41 pjb: ? 09:24:58 (ql:quickload :clem), or ask Xach to add clem to ql ;-) 09:25:48 ok 09:26:07 what is clem for ? 09:26:24 IMO, asdf-install proved the failure of using wiki as a reliable source of formal data... 09:27:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:27:48 homie: matrices algebra package 09:28:00 pjb: how can I install quicklisp on sbcl? 09:28:46 Posterdati: did you see http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ ? 09:29:28 Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 09:29:41 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:30:11 chr`: I'm looking it right now 09:30:41 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 09:30:52 so no asdf 09:31:03 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:31:24 Is there a way to get ASDF compilation into FASL using a filelock? I'd like to load/compile things in parallel (currently in separate processes) 09:31:42 but if two systems require the same dependency then one asdf gets bad data - either a zero-byte file, or some other garbage 09:32:02 flip124: have you looked at xcvb? 09:32:05 whahah, i got floor(asin(6/7)), numer; to return 1, but the test evaling it tells floor(asin(6/7)) gives floor(asin(6/7)) which differs from 1 in the testsuite in maxima 09:32:36 very good, it has got an automated installer :) 09:32:38 -!- Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:32:42 splittist: not yet. thanks 09:33:08 Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 09:33:11 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:27 forgetting contexts 09:33:39 c 09:33:46 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:34:16 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:40 pjb: I used (asdf:load-system :mypackage) 09:34:55 pjb: should I modify my progs to use quicklisp? 09:35:07 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:35:14 Posterdati: and there is https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/tree/master/clem 09:35:40 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:36:40 <|3b|> Posterdati: quicklisp replaces asdf-install, it still uses asdf 09:36:56 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:14 |3b|: ok, so it will be transparent... But now my prog could not found clem functions :) 09:37:27 <|3b|> Posterdati: so your programs should still have a .asd file specifying dependencies, etc 09:37:35 ok 09:37:45 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:47 -!- drl_ [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:37:57 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:37:58 <|3b|> from there, you can load it with asdf:load-system, or quicklisp 09:38:31 <|3b|> loading it through quicklisp would (if i understand it correctly) have the advantage of trying to download any missing dependencies, but is otherwise the same as loading it through asdf 09:38:40 good, but now e.g. I've to write clem:rows instead of rows 09:38:41 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:01 <|3b|> right, that is CL packages though, completely unrelated to how you loaded the source files 09:39:10 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:40:00 <|3b|> you need to import symbols into the current package if you want to use them without a package prefix, usually you do that in a defpackage form 09:40:04 phrixos [~clarkema@adsl-83-100-232-110.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #lisp 09:40:19 |3b|: I'm posting my code 09:40:55 <|3b|> either importing individual symbols, or with :use to import all of the symbols from a particular package, if that package was designed to be used like that (some are not, and will probably cause package conflicts if you do so) 09:42:37 |3b|: so is it better to prefix the package? 09:43:05 <|3b|> it is best to know how packages work, and decide for each case :) 09:43:43 *|3b|* tends to use package prefixes most of the time and put up with extra typing, some people tend to :use by default and fix problems as they come up 09:43:48 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:44:15 |3b|: I do prefer to prefix then, I saw a lot of conflicts in var types definitions 09:44:23 <|3b|> another downside of :USEing packages is that if newer versions of that package export new symbols, you could get conflicts later 09:44:23 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:45:14 <|3b|> where if you use prefixes or import specific functions, your code won't break unless the API of the actual symbols you use changes incompatibly 09:45:50 |3b|: I couldn't paste my code... Proxy Error on firefox :) 09:46:28 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:46:40 <|3b|> for larger projects, :USE can be a convenient way to reduce coupling between components though, since code only needs to know that particular symbols are available in a particular package, not where they came from 09:46:54 mmmh 09:48:58 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 09:48:58 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 09:48:58 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 09:49:11 Posterdati: if you load quicklisp, it should setup the asdf:*central-registry* so that asdf:load-system will work on the system installed by quickload. 09:49:49 pjb: yes I did the installation and automatically added the config in .sbcl as prompted by quicklisp 09:49:52 connot save core with multiple threads running hmmmmm 09:49:56 Posterdati: ok. 09:50:04 pjb: it works 09:50:07 Good. 09:50:14 pjb: and changed almost nothing in my project 09:50:52 drl_ [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 09:51:13 pjb: |3b| I'm adding clem: to symbols I need I think it is better to understand and maintain in the future the source 09:51:31 |3b|, pjb: thanks 09:53:00 -!- Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:53:23 Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 09:55:06 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:59:44 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:00:44 -!- drl_ [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:01:45 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 10:03:59 -!- gko [~gko@111.81.133.137] has quit [] 10:06:55 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@109.127.16.215] has joined #lisp 10:11:01 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:12:32 odd 10:12:45 i can use strings to set property lists, but not to retrieve them? o_O 10:13:15 that is: (setf (get *list* "hello") "world") works to set it, but (get *list* "hello") returns NIL afterwards 10:13:15 longfin [~longfin@59.10.230.247] has joined #lisp 10:13:28 -!- Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:14:11 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:14:20 Landr: because the first "hello" is not the same string as the second "hello" 10:14:21 Landr: GET uses EQ as its comparator. 10:14:34 ah, yes, literals 10:14:43 not literals 10:14:48 object identity 10:14:50 well, two different objects 10:15:00 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 10:15:38 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:15:40 Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:16:09 longfin_ [~longfin@116.201.66.116] has joined #lisp 10:16:35 Landr: you might consider using alists instead of plists 10:16:47 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:37 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 10:17:38 Landr: i.e., ASSOC 10:18:17 hmm 10:18:32 you know, it'd be nice to know that these things exist in advance of me re-creating them in a poorer fashion :> 10:18:47 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 10:18:49 *Landr* should just read all the symbols in the hyperspec 10:18:56 Landr: you have not told what it is that you want to do (or i have missed it) 10:19:41 -!- longfin [~longfin@59.10.230.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:19:44 well, assoc isn't what I want really, i have multiple values mapping to the same key 10:19:57 Landr: RASSOC 10:20:26 and i wonder how plists allow you to deal with that if alists cannot 10:20:33 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 10:21:31 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:21:43 well, my lists look like this: (CATEGORIES ("literature" "russian" "classic") TITLE ("war and peace") AUTHOR ("dostoyevski")) 10:21:53 (this being a plist) 10:22:02 sure, you could you an association list for this. 10:22:13 so if i want all the categories a book belongs to, I do (get book 'categories) 10:22:36 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 10:22:58 Landr: and? 10:23:08 and... thus far that's it? o.O 10:23:11 -!- ramkrsna_ [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-vrqfmqacayfojwmv] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:23:21 that's no different from alist 10:23:31 so would it be faster to do it with assoc? 10:23:35 ramkrsna_ [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dgdjobjbghxurmvq] has joined #lisp 10:23:38 Landr: Tolstoy, innit? 10:24:05 chr`: i wasn't really thinking about it :P just needed a sample 10:24:07 (cdr (assoc 'categories book)) 10:24:21 Landr: Sorry. 10:24:31 :> no need 10:24:46 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@adsl-83-100-232-110.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:25:18 yes, assoc lists seem cleaner 10:26:01 Landr: are you sure you want to use symbol's plist? 10:26:43 no, i'll use assoc 10:26:44 making up fake examples to illustrate what you want to do is not helping you, either 10:26:57 it's not a fake example :( it's why i was using 10:27:16 so you have a unique symbol for each book? 10:27:22 yes, made by gensym 10:27:38 which is a list of all properties and their values 10:28:09 you know that a plist is just a list, and you can use GETF to operate on that? 10:28:23 getf? :< 10:28:44 *Landr* grumbles 10:29:00 Landr: have you seen the hyperspec page for GET? 10:29:10 clhs get 10:29:21 yes 10:29:28 so what's the difference between get and getf? 10:29:43 it's right there, on the page 10:30:26 seems identical 10:30:54 Landr: did you look at the notes? 10:31:10 ohhh 10:31:18 haha, in that case i created it as well 10:31:29 created what? 10:31:59 oh wait, no, hmm 10:32:00 unithrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 10:32:20 Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:32:37 i see, get is a wrapper around getf 10:32:49 or rather, a wrapper around getf and symbol-plist 10:32:51 it is not a wrapper 10:33:12 well... it wraps two functions? :> 10:33:20 well, you can try calling it that, but people usually call such things "convenience functions" 10:33:30 ah, ok then 10:33:35 it is not that simple 10:33:44 consider the (setf get) case 10:33:59 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:34:18 (setf (getf (symbol-plist x) y) z) 10:34:20 Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 10:34:44 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:34:57 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 10:34:57 Landr: go on, define your own function that works just like GET 10:35:05 Landr: should be a good exercise for you 10:35:07 ermm... 10:35:21 recursively loop through the property list? 10:35:26 why? 10:35:34 well, you could loop as well 10:35:39 you only have to return the first hit 10:35:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.213.74.255] has joined #lisp 10:35:54 Landr: i did not say GETF, but GET 10:36:01 yes, that 10:36:03 Landr: you can use GETF to implement it 10:36:56 (defun get (x y) (getf (symbol-plist x) y)) ? 10:37:01 *Landr* doesn't really get it 10:37:24 Landr: that will work for getting the value 10:37:35 Landr: how do you set one? 10:37:44 ahh, i see 10:37:56 -!- longfin_ [~longfin@116.201.66.116] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:38:18 not really sure how to destructively modify a list 10:38:18 longfin [~longfin@211.246.68.157] has joined #lisp 10:39:21 well, you use (setf getf) to do that 10:39:47 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:40:33 well yes... so those would be primitive functions? 10:40:53 -!- Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:41:42 Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 10:41:45 if you have not noticed yet, SETF is a magic thing 10:42:10 indeed 10:42:15 Landr: and when looking up GET in hyperspec, you see both GET and (SETF GET) 10:42:34 which means that GET is a "place" 10:43:05 meaning that the value of a place can be changed using SETF 10:43:30 gah, not the whole byvalue/byreference thing again :( 10:44:06 i'm not sure what you're afraid of, but this has nothing to do with object identity 10:44:12 nikodemus [~nikodemus@82.181.199.216] has joined #lisp 10:45:10 anyway, when you switch to association lists, you'll use (SETF CDR) to modify a value of a key 10:45:17 Landr: if you don't want to reinvent the wheel, or just have an idea of the usual and numerous tools lisp developed along its history, you should really read some books and manuals. 10:45:39 i have cltl2e on my desk 10:45:54 :( it's just kindof thick to plow through at times 10:45:57 Landr: Read a chapter of CLHS each day, and in one month you'll know what exists in the COMMON-LISP package. 10:46:15 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-90.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:16 Landr: next month, you can browse http://common-lisp.net and http://cliki.net to know what other libraries exist. 10:46:43 hmm, a schedule 10:46:47 ah well, breakfast first! :> 10:47:17 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:47:29 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:48:10 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:48:17 longfin_ [~longfin@49.59.44.237] has joined #lisp 10:48:26 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 10:48:30 -!- longfin_ [~longfin@49.59.44.237] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:49:03 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:50:54 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.246.68.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:51:06 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:51:39 shifty [~user@dsl-203-33-166-371.NSW.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:54:45 -!- Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:54:48 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:55:32 Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 10:56:17 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 10:56:25 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:56:55 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.213] has joined #lisp 10:56:57 -!- xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:57:02 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.213] has quit [Changing host] 10:57:02 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 10:59:33 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-183-125.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:33 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-96-233-183-125.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:59:33 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 10:59:59 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-187-135.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:04:12 -!- orivej_ [~orivej@host-29-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 11:04:44 orivej [~orivej@host-29-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 11:04:50 -!- Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:05:29 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.94.180] has joined #lisp 11:05:36 Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 11:05:37 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 11:06:28 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:08:16 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-5-72.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:09:56 -!- Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:10:17 Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 11:11:11 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B082.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:52 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:14:57 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 11:15:00 -!- Hoornet|93 [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:18:35 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:20:36 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 11:20:50 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:10 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-llkvruqvxhmoogka] has joined #lisp 11:24:11 -!- aoh [~aki@85.23.168.123] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:53 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:25:01 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 11:28:54 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 11:28:57 aoh [~aki@85.23.168.123] has joined #lisp 11:29:14 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29:44 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 11:31:53 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:32:58 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 11:33:57 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-242-126.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:34:50 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:36:28 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 11:38:14 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-187-135.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:39:20 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:39:37 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:40:10 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 11:43:04 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:43:49 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 11:45:22 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:46:42 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-90.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:48:04 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.94.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48:13 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.94.180] has joined #lisp 11:52:43 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.33.171] has joined #lisp 11:57:57 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:59:09 urandom__ [~user@p548A7091.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:05 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.94.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:01:38 silenius [~silenus@p54947539.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:54 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 12:01:54 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 12:01:54 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:05:02 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:03 makks [~max@p5DE8C75F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:06 hi all 12:05:33 lo one 12:06:09 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-218-151.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:07:48 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.94.180] has joined #lisp 12:10:58 -!- talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:15:34 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.94.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:39 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.94.180] has joined #lisp 12:15:40 What branch of mathematics/AI deals with problems such as ITA's greenhouse-covered strawberry fields? 12:15:51 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jtzmmuvejzipvhma] has left #lisp 12:16:21 what strawberry fields? 12:16:58 http://www.itasoftware.com/careers/work-at-ita/hiring-puzzles.html 12:19:06 xale: another one is that you have a vector denoting the start-position of a particular term in a document. Given several such vectors, find the shortest continuous span that includes one item from each vector. 12:19:08 phrixos [~clarkema@adsl-83-100-232-110.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #lisp 12:20:55 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.220] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:19 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.187] has joined #lisp 12:25:18 chr`: optimization problems. if you're lucky, convex ones ... 12:25:45 whats the status of tail recursion in CL? 12:26:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.213.74.255] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:26:47 I find it hard to decide what will be optimized and what not 12:26:49 makks: most implementations support it, the standard does not mandate it. 12:27:13 makks: try running your program. if the stack blows, it didn't get optimized. 12:27:44 well that is kind of unsatisfying 12:28:11 not generally a problem in practice 12:29:11 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:29:33 well how about an example: 12:29:43 (defun eat-whitespace (stream) 12:29:43 (when (whitespace-char-p (peek-char nil stream)) 12:29:43 (read-char stream) 12:29:43 (eat-whitespace stream))) 12:29:44 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.94.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:49 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.94.180] has joined #lisp 12:29:49 good idea or bad idea? 12:30:02 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:30:08 bad idea. 12:30:25 peek-char nil t nil ? 12:30:52 ? 12:31:27 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:31:28 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:31:43 I mean, peek-char t stream ... 12:31:45 greaver [~J@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:33:36 whats the difference? 12:33:43 makks: use LOOP. 12:34:40 why? 12:34:50 because you are iterating. 12:35:01 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:35:33 your problem is not inherently recursive, so there is no technical benefit in using tail recursion, and there is no expressive benefit, especially to human readers. 12:35:43 dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:36:36 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 12:36:55 jweiss [~user@69.134.63.238] has joined #lisp 12:38:03 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.94.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:39:22 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@adsl-83-100-232-110.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Changing host] 12:39:23 phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 12:39:41 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.94.180] has joined #lisp 12:40:15 Why is that a bad idea? 12:40:35 It's pretty clear what it does 12:41:05 and it will probably get tail-call optimized right? 12:41:19 why are you hellbent on using tail recursion? 12:41:28 because its simpler than loop 12:41:35 why is it simpler? 12:41:39 that looks like the sort of thing that you'd usually only do in a language which doesn't have a loop-type construct 12:41:48 sounds like a completely unsubstantiated claim. 12:41:56 (defun eat-whitespace (stream) 12:41:56 (loop while (whitespace-char-p (peek-char nil stream)) 12:41:56 do (eat-whitespace stream))) 12:42:19 now that is madness :D 12:42:36 madness is using an expressive construct that doesn't match what you're actually trying to do. 12:43:02 oops 12:43:04 I agree with that 12:43:11 wait, I wouldn't do that, wrong paste. 12:43:14 sorry. 12:43:28 but still I use a lot of recursion in general and I would like to know when it gets optimized and when not 12:43:31 *splittist* would still peek-char t stream 12:43:31 zfx: We understand what you mean, you meant read-char instead of eat-whitespace 12:43:32 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@82.181.199.216] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:43:35 drdo: yes. 12:44:05 makks: then present a problem that uses recursion effectively, not some artificial toy example. 12:44:19 I am kind of interested in what this would do now haha 12:44:34 as Xach said, it is not mandated by the standard, but some implementations do optimize it. 12:44:34 (loop) on whitespace I guess 12:44:57 so you should look at the documentation for your preferred implementation. 12:45:55 makks: You can just assume that it is optimized really 12:46:04 If it isn't, your implementation isn't worth using 12:46:05 The neat thing is that with tail-call optimization the same machine code is generated as with loop ... 12:46:27 (Or at least _should_ be generated, if the compiler is worth anything) 12:47:24 lots of unsubstantiated claims flying around here. 12:48:04 list of characters considered whitespace, anyone? (especially non UNIX stuff) 12:48:48 makks: that's a hairy area. apart from \r\n\f and space there are vertical tabs, and a fine list of unicode characters that _might_ be considered whitespace ... 12:49:20 doesn't unicode database contain apropriate information? 12:49:44 makks: why do you want to eat whitespace? perhaps we can help with your real problem. 12:49:59 Because whitespace is delicious! 12:50:08 exactly :D 12:50:17 I want to parse a simple plain text format 12:50:30 makks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_character 12:50:50 makks: use cl-ppcre and replace "^\\s+" by "" 12:50:56 makks: so, presumably, you have some expectation of what constitutes "whitespace" in that format. 12:50:58 sellout [~Adium@64.134.240.143] has joined #lisp 12:51:11 galdor: \s won't cover everything, will it? 12:51:30 galdor: you don't know what his format looks like yet. 12:51:49 we're talking eating whitespaces, it's a way 12:51:52 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.152.79] has joined #lisp 12:51:56 not a perfect way, depending of the problem 12:52:06 galdor: most probably it's the wrong way 12:52:07 *splittist* isn't going to give up on peek-char t 12:52:51 splittist: topic has moved on to the definition of whitespace characters, not how to skip over them :) 12:53:17 well I would say #\Newline #\Space and #\Tab, and their counterparts on other systems. 12:53:27 Never seen a verticall tab in my days 12:53:36 jdz: yes - but with peek-char t you get the implementation's version (which may well play nicely with Unicode). 12:53:41 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-31-39.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:53:48 splittist: and it may not... 12:53:58 splittist: I am still interested though, why peek-char t? 12:54:05 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:54:15 bsod1 [~sinan@88.240.131.58] has joined #lisp 12:54:15 makks: have you read the documentation of peek-char? 12:54:24 (just to be sure) 12:54:25 oh I did just now 12:54:25 " If peek-type is t, then peek-char skips over whitespace[2] characters, but not comments, and then performs the peeking operation on the next character." 12:54:25 *zfx* wonders if we'll get to know more about the real problem, if one actually exists. 12:54:29 well thats practical :D 12:54:54 Guess that is what I want 12:55:01 thanks splittist 12:55:11 my work here is done 12:56:03 CLTL2 doesn't mention *which* whitespace characters are skipped ... 12:56:07 notice that that notion of whitespace depends on the readtable 12:56:35 whitespace sure is tricky :D 12:57:16 well I guess if peek-char's definition of whitespace is based on CL parsing, then I am good with that 12:57:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:58:38 bah. 12:59:04 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:00:08 :) 13:00:23 feel free to state your critic 13:00:27 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:01:30 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 13:02:03 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.94.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:03:34 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.134.9] has joined #lisp 13:03:44 zomgbie [~jesus@84-119-93-100.static.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:04:29 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:04:30 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has left #lisp 13:07:11 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 13:07:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-36.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:07:33 Heh. Alexandria has a whitespacep - in the sbcl docstrings extractor (: 13:10:22 does it have a REAL-PROBLEM-P? 13:13:48 so r7rs adds reader labels. funny. 13:14:34 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 13:16:46 -!- SolarBoom [~Nurlan@109.127.16.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:20:03 realitygrill [~realitygr@24.208.248.193] has joined #lisp 13:20:13 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.152.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:20:56 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:03 Just in case http://lisp.pastecode.com/2981 13:23:38 or use MEMBER. 13:23:49 except for that range bit. :) 13:23:56 or find on a vector 13:24:12 it's not a big range (: 13:25:20 lanthan [~ze@80.153.43.145] has joined #lisp 13:25:31 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:26:37 -!- lanthan [~ze@80.153.43.145] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:27:22 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:31:08 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-198-44.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:14 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 13:32:15 spacebat [~spacebat@ubermonkey.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:47 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:34:10 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:15 fisxoj [~fisxoj@24.59.205.231] has joined #lisp 13:34:25 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.33.171] has quit [Quit: bye] 13:35:41 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:24 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@70.226.162.110] has left #lisp 13:37:52 jyp [~jyp@118.120.229.24] has joined #lisp 13:37:55 -!- jyp [~jyp@118.120.229.24] has left #lisp 13:37:59 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:38:12 I hate parsing, its so complicated :( 13:38:34 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:38:36 yes. 13:39:11 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:39:16 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:40:08 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 13:40:39 ORDERS [9584bdeb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.132.189.235] has joined #lisp 13:41:56 Hi! does anyone know how skolem algorithm works? 13:42:27 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@24.208.248.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:42:29 -!- ORDERS is now known as Patagous 13:42:43 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:04 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:44:21 makks: I love parsing, it's so easy. 13:46:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 13:46:23 pjb: any advice? 13:49:09 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:46 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.106.133] has joined #lisp 13:50:06 what are you parsing? 13:50:20 makks: you can make it more fun by using a new technique. Try packrat parsers, for example (e.g. esrap). Or look at Henry Baker's stuff. 13:51:02 makks: use a parser generator. 13:51:20 cliki.net has a page about them. 13:52:20 xale: a simple document format, similar to markdown 13:53:12 makks: just be careful with your lexical analysis. When you're parsing "documents", spaces and particularly newlines are often much more significant than in programs. 13:55:58 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:29 makks: you could look at how gigamonkey handles parsing his (giga)Markup. 13:57:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-167.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:58:45 splittist: is this in practical common lisp? 13:59:30 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955E5FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:59:45 makks: not that I remember. https://github.com/gigamonkey/monkeylib-markup 14:00:41 zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-192-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:00:57 There's also a parser for reST written in Lisp IIRC. 14:01:22 reST? 14:01:31 reStructured Text. 14:01:33 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:01:53 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 14:01:54 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 14:01:54 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 14:02:10 A unconspicuous text markup format. :-) 14:02:24 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-64-215-83.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:02:38 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:49 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84-119-93-100.static.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:03:51 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.106.133] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 14:03:57 http://www.jarw.org.uk/lisp/cl-docutils.html ? 14:04:33 yes, that's it. 14:07:27 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:08:32 Pirx_ [~Pirx@195.225.69.9] has joined #lisp 14:11:24 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:38 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-64-215-83.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: quit] 14:14:38 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:50 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:43 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:51 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:15:52 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:58 -!- sellout [~Adium@64.134.240.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:18:02 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:33 -!- Pirx_ is now known as Pirxs 14:21:32 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:27:24 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:29:03 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:29:08 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:20 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:30:20 morning 14:30:41 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-puaghiiocxfwwpez] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:31:47 hi slyrus 14:32:53 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:33:18 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:25 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:33:49 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:34:32 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 14:35:48 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@88.240.131.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:36:07 bsod1 [~sinan@88.240.131.58] has joined #lisp 14:36:28 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 14:36:57 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-29-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:46 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 14:40:05 clhs every 14:41:38 pjb: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_everyc.htm 14:41:51 Thanks. 14:41:54 Sorry, minion is lagging today ;) 14:42:53 orivej [~orivej@host-29-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 14:46:23 -!- ramkrsna_ [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-dgdjobjbghxurmvq] has quit [Quit: Quit] 14:50:10 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:47 wanderingelf [~matt@c-71-61-22-64.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:22 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-64-215-83.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:54:24 stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:54:27 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-64-215-83.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 14:54:57 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:18 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:57:43 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:43 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:58:44 Rukowen [~Rukowen@123.20.15.240] has joined #lisp 14:58:49 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-69-66.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 14:58:49 so, i can't modify variables that I pass to a function as parameters 14:59:01 so use macros instead? 14:59:16 no 14:59:25 Landr: neither. 14:59:38 well what then? 14:59:40 Variables are not passed to functions, only values. 14:59:49 Then just do not try to modify variables. 14:59:55 but... i need to :< 14:59:55 (setf var (function var)) 14:59:58 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 15:00:01 Instead, if you need to update a variable, do as makks shows. 15:00:11 but what if i have ten million vars? 15:00:15 mapcar doesn't seem to work 15:00:18 Then you have a problem. 15:00:23 Do not have ten million vars. 15:00:23 >:O 15:00:26 this is nonsense 15:00:30 10 million vars? 15:00:35 like a vector? 15:00:41 an arbitrary amount 15:00:43 or an array or what? 15:01:00 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@209.119.73.178] has joined #lisp 15:01:01 Landr: you can wrap multi-"variable" state into an object or a structure. 15:01:26 Notice that objects and structures are mutable, so a function could change them, without having to change the variables that reference them. 15:01:42 Have you read practical common lisp? It was pretty helpful for me when I came from C to lisp. 15:01:43 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 15:01:48 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:02:20 but seriously, i can't do (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (setf x 42)) (list a b c)) ? 15:02:34 nope 15:02:40 this is unacceptable! 15:02:41 Landr: sure you can. 15:02:45 oh? 15:02:46 Sure you can -- but do you understand what pass-by-value means? 15:02:49 (let ((s (list 1 2 3))) (map-into s (lambda (x) (+ 1 x)) s) s) 15:02:50 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 15:02:50 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:57 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:10 Landr: it changes the value bound to the lexical variable x. 15:03:17 Zhivago: yes, but the problem is I don't have C's handy * and & to know whether I'm dealing with values or references 15:03:27 Landr: you have to use your handy brain instead. 15:03:33 but this brain is bork! 15:03:38 :D 15:03:43 Landr: C doesn't have referenes ... 15:03:49 pointers then, same difference 15:03:59 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 15:04:06 not the same. 15:04:08 Landr: No -- it's not the same. 15:04:18 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:04:29 c = modify(c); == modify-directly(&c); 15:04:29 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:04:30 Landr: You can capture places in closures in CL if you wish. 15:04:42 o.O how will that help me? 15:04:52 It won't, since your thinking is confused. 15:04:57 yep 15:05:02 i mean, the problem is: i have a list of variables i want to assign/create hashtables for 15:05:03 reas that book 15:05:05 read* 15:05:08 Think about the problem that you're trying to solve ... 15:05:11 and i don't want to write out (setf (make-hash-table)) 15:05:16 ten or more times 15:05:20 So, use a loop ... 15:05:29 ... ahhh 15:05:30 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:35 :< derp 15:06:08 hmm 15:06:18 I think you WANT to write that out 15:06:41 it seems like repetition 15:06:48 which is anathema to programming! 15:07:47 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 15:08:01 so what you want to write is something like (define-hash-var varname) and have it do (setf varname (make-hashtable))? 15:08:07 Landr: Nonsense. 15:08:35 Landr: how did you find yourself with ten or more variables you want to initialize like that? 15:08:44 Landr: Repetition is at the heart of all language. 15:08:45 good question 15:09:06 Landr: Think of it as being essentially a compression problem. 15:09:08 Xach: well, i already have four, and I might add more later 15:09:33 maybe you want one hash-table mapping to a vector instead? 15:09:41 Landr: You could replace "of it" with "xqws", but then you'd have to add "xqws" to your vocabulary, which has a cost. 15:09:58 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:10:21 Landr: How did you find yourself in that situation? 15:10:22 Landr: The same follows in programming -- often it is more readable to repeat yourself. 15:10:35 where vector might well mean structure or class 15:10:48 Xach: because... i need a lot of hash tables to deal with a lot of items in different categories? 15:11:06 Landr: What actual problem are you trying to solve? 15:11:09 Landr: you can put hash tables in a hash table 15:11:21 Zhivago: a small catalogue databse 15:11:29 Landr: It doesn't follow that they all need to be in separate variables. 15:12:15 well, the first one is to map book-codes to the full entry of a book, the second is to map value-codes to the book-codes that contain those values, the third is to map category-codes to the value-codes that appear in those categories at some place 15:12:25 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@74-93-1-121-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:12:43 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:12:47 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 15:12:57 Well, that sounds reasonable. 15:13:00 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:13:23 so if you look at, say "category: author" it gives you a list of all author names (values) for that category, and if you then look at a name, it gives you a list of all books that have that author in that category, and if you look at a book, you see the full entry of it 15:14:04 pnq [~nick@ACA36F41.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:48 but of course, that's only supposing you have a single library, whereas you can have several if you're managing a lot of separate libraries (each needing their own items/categories/values hashtables... 15:15:01 unless of course you merge them all I guess 15:15:12 right, you could also have a libeary column. 15:15:51 indeed, but for faster indexing it might be more prudent to have them separate, as you can already return the results of the current library while you're still going through all other libraries 15:15:53 but I don't think you're helping yourself by thinking of this as a bunch of hash tables, instead of a set of tuples with indices (i.e., a database) 15:18:03 well, i guess i could make an array of three hash tables (items, values, categories), and then an array of that kind of array 15:18:13 and then, you can do all sort of funky things, like executing your queries as set intersections and unions. And now, your problem is reduced to representing sets of naturals. 15:18:17 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:18:46 pkhuong: well, at the end you do get a list with all categories and values 15:19:10 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:10 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:19:17 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110323131629]] 15:19:38 but i thought it'd be faster to have a hash table (gethash 'tolstoy *AUTHORS*) rather than looking through a huge list of all entries 15:19:42 or, you know, just use a database. 15:19:59 Landr: huh? Why would there be a list? 15:20:13 because at the end each entry is just a list of category:value's 15:20:27 the hash tables are just so you have a global index of all categories and values ever used 15:20:28 I thought each entry was a book. 15:20:33 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:20:41 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:20:41 yes, and a book is described as a list of categories and values 15:21:08 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:09 Your use case seemed to allow conjunction of queries 15:21:12 eg: (((author (tolstoy) (title (war and peace)) (tags (russian 19-century literature))) 15:21:40 and IIUC, you want to support queries like tags: russian and 19-century. 15:21:44 yes, i haven't worked on that yet, but say you want to have all 19th-century literary works with the word "peace" in the title 15:22:13 so first it checks up the category-table to find the key for "peace" 15:22:21 then it loooks in the value-table to find all books with "peace" 15:22:29 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:22:31 and then what? 15:22:43 then you have a list of keys you can use in the item-table to get those entries 15:22:53 no, you have two lists. 15:22:58 no, one list o.O 15:23:31 why do you need to "look in the value-table"? 15:23:44 err, wait, now i'm confus 15:24:34 There's only one thing you do with a key: find the set of entries that correspond to that key... 15:24:46 in the category table you look up all categories and values assigned to them, so if you tried (gethash 'title *CATEGORIES*) you'd get a list the likes of: (war peace and pride prejudice alice wonderland ... ) 15:25:17 then you look in that list to see if it has peace (so yes, actually the first step isn't really necessary) 15:25:38 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-169-52.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:25:46 so: "peace" --> *VALUES* --> key --> *ITEMS* --> (((author (tolstoy) (title (war and peace)) (tags (russian 19-century literature))) 15:25:59 You do realize that you can use multiple keys in a hash table, right? 15:26:04 o.O 15:26:17 Just use a list of keys. 15:26:43 well, the keys returned from values are a list :> so that's handy 15:27:26 the hyperspec doesn't say you can use multiple keys in a query 15:27:31 e.g. key on (title "peace"), instead of having a a dictionary to map titles to entries, and another for categories to entries, and another. 15:27:50 Landr: A list of keys can hold however many keys you want. 15:28:10 The only downside is that you can't have wildcards. 15:28:12 well yes, but i'll need more hash tables, one for each category :< 15:28:29 because i only want the books with peace in the title, not those written by john peace, for example 15:28:30 So a category is? a tag? 15:28:46 Oh, so category is: author, title, tag, etc. 15:28:54 yes 15:29:00 As I wrote before, you can just use a list of keys. 15:29:03 hepek [~hepek@cable-89-216-25-79.static.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 15:29:06 how? 15:29:12 For instance, (title "peace") isn't the same as (author "peace"). 15:29:17 With LIST. 15:29:23 well, yes, that's what i'm doing, no? 15:29:37 -!- hepek [~hepek@cable-89-216-25-79.static.sbb.rs] has left #lisp 15:29:42 putting "peace" in the values-table gives you a list of keys you can use on the items-table 15:30:20 You don't have to nest lookups that way. 15:30:28 oh? 15:30:41 You can just use a list of keys. 15:30:47 how? 15:31:20 (gethash (list 'title "peace") a-hash-table). 15:31:57 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:32:40 i don't get it :< 15:32:41 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:50 (gethash (list :a :b) ht) => nil 15:33:06 (:a and :b are both mapped to numbers in ht) 15:33:20 you have to map something to (:a :b) 15:33:26 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 15:33:27 ahhhh, i see 15:33:34 you mean merging keywords to use as a single key 15:33:39 that's indeed clever 15:33:46 yep 15:33:49 new to me too 15:33:54 -!- lundis [~lundis@86.50.67.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34:31 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-304.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 15:36:14 nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:36:35 So, now you just have a single hash table to map simple queries (author contains "foo", or title contains "bar", etc), and you'll want to intersect those. So you need a set representation. I'm sure a scripting language enthusiast would immediately use a hash table, because that's all they have. 15:37:21 but using the power of lisp...! :> 15:37:29 Now, given your use case, it seems to me you don't need random access to these sets, only intersection and iteration through the values (and maybe union). These sets are likely to be pretty sparse, so you could just use sorted vectors. 15:38:14 *Landr* looks up sorted vectors 15:38:33 Sorted on what? Doesn't matter, as long as it's always the same. I like to store entries in an auxilary vector and sort on the index in that auxilary vector. 15:38:42 Landr: it's a vector that's sorted. 15:39:00 what's the advantage of it? 15:39:17 -!- Patagous [9584bdeb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.132.189.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:39:39 i'm gonna have two lists of keys, and i'll probably want the union... so probably write/use a function "for each foo in list1, delete-if-not in list2" 15:39:56 no. The vectors are sorted. 15:40:49 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:47 ? 15:42:17 The vectors are sorted. You can exploit that to perform unions and intersection in a single pass, while preserving the ordering. 15:43:14 but how do i benefit from having the keys sorted by number? 15:43:17 The advantages are three-fold: working with sets of integers is easier for just about any runtime library (even hash tables will often work better with integers as keys). Sorted vectors are simpler to manipulate than hash tables and use much less space. The access patterns are also much nicer, which, once you have a large number of keywords, can be important. 15:43:37 Landr: you benefit by having much more efficient set operations. 15:43:50 :( 15:43:52 *Landr* is lost 15:44:16 In clsql, is there a way to create a table based on a view class, or do I have to specify the column information twice? (once for the view class definition, and once for the CREATE-TABLE call? 15:44:31 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.152.79] has joined #lisp 15:44:41 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA36F41.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:00 loke: heads up, programming is really difficult and you just came to the ultimate geek space 15:45:03 Landr: http://l1sp.org/cl/merge . You can do the same to intersect values. 15:45:11 loke: create-view-from-class 15:45:13 uhm I meant Landr sry 15:46:04 phrixos: woah, neat. Am I the only one who feels that function name is poorly named? 15:46:17 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:28 yeah, it's not obvious when you're scanning for something to do what you want 15:46:29 CREATE-TABLE-FROM-VIEW would sound much more logical, to me. 15:46:39 pkhuong: so, you're saying that I should sort the results i get from the hash table? 15:46:50 phrixos: Yep. I had scanned that list a few times, and obviously missed it :-) 15:47:00 Landr: no. The results should already be sorted. 15:47:06 Sort them ahead of time, once. 15:47:21 ah, yes 15:47:39 loke: it's in the tutorial. 15:47:45 so merge will work faster on sorted lists/vectors? 15:48:20 Landr: It's possible to merge and intersect sorted sequences faster than unsorted ones. That's why CL's merge only works on sorted sequences. 15:48:29 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75556b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:39 hmm 15:48:47 *Landr* should really open a book on data structures and algorithms some day 15:49:40 That would be in the first chapters, before or around sorting. This trick is what makes mergesort tick. 15:49:46 Xach: you're right. I actually did read that part of the tutorial, but it's so short and since the name didn't make sense to me I simply missed it. I do remember ebing annoyed that they didn't talk about table creation. :-) 15:49:55 glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:00 Jasko [~tjasko@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:21 Xach: speaking of clsql, since I obviously wasn't the only one who had to downgrade SBCL, do you know if there'll be any fix for it to run on the latest version? I spent a lot of time, quickloading many times, trying to get the damn thing working until I realised it was a change in SBCL that prevented it from working. 15:53:40 loke: the fix is committed to git. i hope to have a new quicklisp dist update very soon. a laptop crash prevented me from doing it this weekend. 15:54:11 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-69-66.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:54:42 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:55:08 Xach: Nice. No need to downgrade the rest of my machines then. 15:56:19 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:56:58 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57:13 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:57:23 Xach: you're not testing all the libraries on all the different CL's out there, are you? How the hell do you make it work so smoothly? 15:57:31 Landr: Xach used bitvectors in a similar context, but there likely weren't as many entries, and much more tags. It's a different tradeoff. 15:58:46 bitvectors? o_O how? 15:58:55 ohh, a bit for every tag? 15:59:16 or a bit for every item having that tag 15:59:17 hmm 15:59:24 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-29-226.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:00:10 loke: i only test linux/sbcl. 16:00:13 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:00:18 loke: that happens to be the most popular combination in use. 16:00:29 Landr: one bit per article 16:00:36 Landr: one bit vector per search term 16:01:00 Xach: which is what I use too, so no wonder :-) (well, I also use OSX/SBCL) 16:01:29 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 16:01:39 Xach: do you have any knowledge of how well it works on ECL? I might be starting to use that one once the Android/ECL becomes more stable. 16:04:13 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:04:26 loke: it was working ok, but some kind of issue means i need to add more asdf parts for ecl 16:04:30 superflit [~superflit@c-71-196-128-246.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:28 I'll start using Android/ECL when I can QL:QUICKLOAD the android stuff :-) 16:06:14 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:06:14 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:47 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-187-135.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:35 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:15 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:08:20 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:23 pkhuong: i'm stuck at the "use combinations as keys for the hash table", it doesn't work to retrieve them 16:08:55 probably because they're different objects again 16:09:02 Landr: you have to use the right hash table test at creation time. 16:09:36 so equal instead of eq? 16:09:48 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.134.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:11:31 sweet, it works! 16:11:40 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:46 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:13:23 Congratulations :) 16:13:28 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:00 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:15:14 wccoder [~wccoder@99.199.165.19] has joined #lisp 16:16:40 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.152.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16:56 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:16:58 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-29-226.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 16:17:10 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.152.79] has joined #lisp 16:17:35 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:11 Axius [~skg@109.97.42.124] has joined #lisp 16:22:18 -!- superflit [~superflit@c-71-196-128-246.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 16:29:33 -!- silenius [~silenus@p54947539.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:56 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:29:59 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:31:35 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|jaculated 16:31:50 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.152.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:32:18 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32:32 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.152.79] has joined #lisp 16:34:04 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 16:34:26 Hi, does anyone know if implementors are given guidance (in specs or elsewhere) on uniforming implementation of functions. I take the case of remove-duplicates, I see a huge difference in efficiency between implementations when I test it but can't tell whether it's because of the function itself or the compiler differences in general... 16:34:26 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:35:51 I mean the diferences are almost verging on the ridiculous (like over a 100 fold speed differences sometimes) 16:36:33 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:37:14 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:38:21 francogrex: only very data structures are specified in ways that specify what their rough performance characteristics should be 16:38:31 (I think that would be cons cells and arrays, maybe hash tables) 16:38:39 "very few" there. 16:38:43 ok 16:39:04 anyway, I don't think the clhs imposes any upper bound on the optimizations performed by implementations (: 16:39:33 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:40:05 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@109.127.15.169] has joined #lisp 16:41:00 but lower bounds would be good, I mean if it takes over 10 minutes to perform (remove-duplicates data :test #'equal) where data is about only 6000 strings on ~10 chars length each and another implementation does it in 0.1 sec (same architecture al all)... I would start wondering 16:41:34 rme_ [~rme@pool-70-104-117-146.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:00 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 16:42:36 <_3b> you could always try grabbing functions from sicl or sacla to compare 16:43:00 xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:46:01 yeah that's an idea. Maybe I'll try so see if they have a rem dup blocks there 16:46:26 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 16:46:37 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-llkvruqvxhmoogka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:46 I mean I have external efficient rem dup (one particularly from a package from pjb) that I use it relies on hashing; 16:49:40 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 16:49:47 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 16:50:02 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:50:06 -!- Landr [~user@78-21-55-104.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:50:21 Landr [~user@78-21-55-104.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:51:04 Jabberwock [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 16:51:15 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:19 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.96.89] has joined #lisp 16:51:24 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:30 -!- Jabberwock is now known as Guest63693 16:51:53 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:54 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@98.234.186.226] has joined #lisp 16:52:18 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:57 Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-248-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:53:38 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:45 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:54:48 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:55:14 -!- greaver [~J@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:55:22 *JuanDaugherty* doesn't know why did he thought that kind of difference in implementations was "ridiculous". 16:55:24 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:45 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-69-66.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 16:56:59 jdz [~jdz@host254-57-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:57:35 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 16:57:35 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:57:35 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:57:35 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:59:12 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-155-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:28 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:25 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@98.234.186.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:01:31 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.96.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:03:42 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:03:57 Hello! 17:04:05 I'd like to crawl website which has a lot of AJAX - urls like: click. Is there any way to "click" this link with lisp library? 17:04:37 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 17:06:18 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.207.179] has joined #lisp 17:06:35 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:06:42 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.207.179] has left #lisp 17:08:48 Bronsa [~brace@host94-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:09:12 mrSpec: yes. However the library may not yet be written. ;-) 17:09:32 haha :D 17:09:41 Basically you need a Javascript runtime. 17:09:43 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:09:51 -!- jso [~user@cpe-76-176-206-114.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:58 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-oznrjvcqluaxvrhv] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:06 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-68.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:10:08 What's that browser written in CL? Does it support Javascript? 17:10:11 well, there's a project to compile JavaScript to CL, ain't there? 17:10:21 gigamonkey, mrSpec: I think Marijn has a javascript runtime in CL 17:10:34 I don't know if it implements the DOM, though 17:11:52 HG` [~HG@p579F7895.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:58 There's certainly an argument to be made that it's a bad idea to willy nilly click javascript links while crawling. 17:12:08 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:13:12 and putting javascript code in href is so yesterday 17:13:20 there's google's ajaxy link spec. following that sounds decent (although I think it's not a good idea to encourage these crappy #! links) 17:13:23 nowadays people attach event handlers using jQuery 17:14:03 antifuchs: #! has certain nice uses on browser side (you can use that to hijack URL dispatch for your app) 17:14:38 p_l|backup: but when you make them your primary links, you exclude anyone not running javascript 17:15:07 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-69-66.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:15:18 basically, this is me hating on gawker (and it seems their traffic has gone down considerably. rightfully so.) 17:16:05 antifuchs: when it's a web application, not a site, itmakessense... anyone using that kindofstuff for normal links should be used as reactor cleanup crewmember 17:16:11 Bah. How does one google to read more about #! links when Google ignores punctuation in searches? 17:16:57 gigamonkey: try "google ajax spec" 17:17:09 gigamonkey: http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2009/10/proposal-for-making-ajax-crawlable.html 17:17:47 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 17:17:47 the first result I get is https://code.google.com/intl/la/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/specification.html 17:17:53 yeah, that (: 17:18:51 fe[nl]ix: yeah, so that'd be good if I knew that's where this #! stuff came from. ;-) 17:19:01 Let's hear it for human intelligence helping out. Thanks guys. 17:19:02 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-aczslmqbbbbbhidc] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:19:17 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@123.20.15.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19:19 google web stuff is so yesterday. There will be a natural drain of the best and brightest over the wall to ITA and lisp, then MySpace here we come! 17:19:20 Meanwhile, is the #! in http://twitter.com/#!/google the same thing? 17:19:48 sylecn [~sylecn@wireless-128-62-203-51.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 17:20:10 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:20:39 gigamonkey: I think so, yes 17:21:13 gigamonkey: #! is so that the twitter JS code gets /google as a parameter 17:21:17 gigamonkey: look at the Resources timeline, and you'll see a call to api/1/users/show.json?screen_name=google 17:22:19 Okay. I'm already confused. I'm going to leave understanding this to some other day. 17:22:30 Since there's actually no need for me to do so now. 17:22:34 gigamonkey: also, check out https://twitter.com/?__escaped_fragment=google 17:23:05 gigamonkey: what the google crawlers do is substitute "?__escaped_fragment_=" for "#!" and check that URL 17:23:33 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 17:24:02 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:53 carlocci [~nes@93.37.203.178] has joined #lisp 17:26:26 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:26:45 antifuchs: I think what I'm missing is what problem this is solving? 17:26:47 -!- jdz [~jdz@host254-57-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:27:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:27:39 are defvar, defparameter, let, flet, car, cdr, ... functions? 17:27:49 *gigamonkey* can't rein in his damnable curiosity 17:27:50 or are they some kind of special commands? 17:27:54 bsod1: cdr and car are functions. 17:28:00 bsod1: some are, some aren't. 17:28:01 bsod1: the others are not. 17:28:07 Some are special operators. 17:28:09 Some are macros. 17:28:21 Xach: gigamonkey: where can I find list of functions, operators, macros, commands, etc. ? 17:28:22 bsod1: see http://l1sp.org/cl/defvar for info about what kind of thing it is. 17:28:33 bsod1: the Hyperspec 17:28:47 gigamonkey: I looked to the hyperspec but couldn't find a list 17:28:54 Yeah, may not be a list. 17:28:57 myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:29:00 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@87.96.152.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:29:07 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 17:29:10 There should be a list of special operators in one place somewhere. 17:29:11 you can inspect the CL package in Slime and then group the list of external symbols by classification 17:29:38 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:45 the CL quick reference might have such a list, too 17:30:14 tcr1: do you mean this? http://clqr.berlios.de/ 17:30:16 2.1.2.1.2.1 or something, no? 17:30:24 gigamonkey: I'm probably missing context, but isn't (some of) the issue about freeing up the 'domain.com/...' namespace? 17:30:38 gigamonkey: website publishers want to know what ad targets^W^Wstupid monkeys^W^Wtheir customers click on, so they implement stupid metrics software that requires page loading via AJAX (-: 17:30:46 (ah, also you get nicer page transitions) 17:31:14 (and it gives you an excuse to make /everything/ that the user does into a page view, inflating the value of your site to advertisers) 17:31:23 antifuchs: so when I type twitter.com/google in the URL bar of my browser, I get redirected to twitter.com/#!/google What's that for? 17:31:24 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:31:33 uniformity, I guess 17:31:34 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/03_abab.htm (3.1.2.1.2) 17:31:42 gigamonkey: so you can get a richer, ajaxier experience! 17:32:52 gigamonkey: it's their permalinks, so they want you to use them. or something. interestingly enough, non-js browsers get the non-#! links on twitter. huh. 17:33:04 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0022.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 17:33:05 antifuchs: there's more important reason - providing stable URIs to dynamic interfaces 17:33:07 well, can't be too good from an SEO viewpoint then. (: 17:33:54 antifuchs: google's aware of that particular trick 17:34:15 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@24.59.205.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:34:16 rsynnott: I'm aware. still, two different URLs -> content duplication -> bad. 17:34:25 (they actually pioneered it with gmail, and I think they provide users with a mechanism to tell their spider where to go) 17:34:31 I like how code.google.com has a busted SSL key. 17:34:37 aanyway. I think this is way off-topic for here now (: 17:34:40 but twitter probably isn't super-interested in SEO anyway 17:34:58 Okay, this spec https://code.google.com/intl/la/web/ajaxcrawling/docs/specification.html is making some sense. 17:35:17 *p_l|backup* actually likes#! links verymuch, because they provide a nice, uniform interface I canstore a link to, instead of getting to front page and finding it through clicking 17:35:36 ... also, I think I need to replace the whole keyboard :/ 17:36:16 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-136-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:34 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:37:48 antifuchs: Yes, OT. But how is Lisp going to take over the world, unless we understand it. But I'm done for now. Thanks. 17:38:01 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:38:10 gigamonkey: heheh, yeah (: 17:39:58 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0022.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:42:14 -!- Axius [~skg@109.97.42.124] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:51:04 ezakimak [~nick@ns1.nickleippe.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:31 still trying to understand how bindings work 17:51:52 (defvar *x* 3) (defun foo (x) (setf x 4)) yields: 17:51:56 *x* -> 3 17:51:59 (foo *x*) -> 4 17:52:02 *x* -> still 3 17:52:06 why isn't *x* changed to 4? 17:52:18 because you're passing in the value that *x* is bound to 17:52:22 ezakimak: because you changed x, not *x* 17:52:28 all that FOO modifies is the binding of X. 17:52:30 so it copies when it calls foo? 17:52:30 ezakimak: because in the function FOO, you have a local variable named X, and the SETF changes that local binding. 17:53:06 the two variables' names are very close to each other, which might contribute to confusion (: 17:53:14 i just read through the paper "the idiot's guide to special variables and lexical closures" by Erann Gat, and am still confused 17:53:29 i realize *x* and x are completely diff. names 17:53:33 ok 17:53:45 ezakimak: but X is not a special binding 17:53:55 but *x* passed to foo is 17:54:06 ezakimak: the value 3 is passed to FOO. 17:54:11 you're not passing *x*, you're passing 3. 17:54:17 so when i call a function, are the _values_ copied? i thought it was by reference 17:54:24 and even if it were, if you changed it inside FOO, you'd still only change that binding's value, which'd be undone when exiting the scope 17:54:52 i need to see the source I guess to understand under the hood what lisp is doing 17:55:11 not a copy. same object, but you don't get to modify the binding. 17:55:20 ezakimak: Lisp's model is similar to C's, it's always value-of-reference 17:55:21 so, the paper I read, says that bindings are similar but not equivalent to pointers 17:55:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has quit [Quit: Offline] 17:55:43 it's not easy to argue about integers there because you can't destructively modify them. but if it was a hash-table, it will pass in the same hash table 17:55:51 so what is the binding? the name, the pointer, or the target location in memory storing the actual value? 17:55:54 (or clos instance, or string) 17:56:08 ezakimak: a binding is an association between a variable and a value 17:56:10 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:56:14 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:56:23 so it's the entry in the internal symbol table? 17:56:26 a named pointer? 17:56:43 there's no specific implementation mandated 17:56:46 ezakimak: I don't think those are helpful terms to think of it, no. 17:57:01 the more I try to understand this the more i am confused 17:57:02 ezakimak: think of it as an arrow 17:57:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:57:19 i've written a c compiler before, so I'm trying to understand it in those terms 17:57:21 *x* -> 3 17:57:27 ezakimak: Best not to. 17:57:27 ^ 17:57:30 | 17:57:36 x 17:57:39 something like that 17:57:54 X is another variable, bound to the same value 17:58:09 when you SETF X, what you do is change where X's arrow points 17:58:14 can I say that X is a pointer that points to 3? 17:58:20 ezakimak: when CL evaluates a form like (foo bar baz), it checks to see what FOO is. If it names a function, BAR and BAZ are evaluated to produce values, and then the function named by FOO is passed those values. Within the body of FOO, there are new variables bound to those values. 17:58:21 it won't affect where *X* points in any way 17:58:32 ezakimak: you can, but it would be mostly wrong. 17:58:47 wow. this is a real mind bender 17:59:00 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:59:07 ezakimak: If the values have internal structure that can be modified, the modifications will be visible in those values outide of FOO - they're the same objects. but changes to the local variable bindings don't affect things in FOO's caller. 17:59:17 so, when does setf change the actual value and when does it just change the pointer? 17:59:27 ezakimak: when (defun foo (x) (setf x 3)) is compiled, it probably arranges to accept it's argument via a register. When you setf x the value in the register is changed. 17:59:45 so it does copy the argument when called? 17:59:57 ezakimak: no, but integers are immutable 17:59:59 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 18:00:05 you can't make 3 be something different than 3 18:00:11 ezakimak: well, if you call putting some bits in a register a copy, yes. 18:00:19 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:00:28 it is exactly the same as in other languages that have references. 18:00:34 The funny thing is small integers like three can be stored directly in a register. 18:00:50 well, so if foo instead did (setf *x* 4), then it of course would alter *x* directly, correct? 18:00:58 Yes. 18:01:03 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 18:01:03 No. 18:01:14 Xach: wait, what? 18:01:18 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:25 Sorry, I was thinking if you defined FOO as (defun foo (*x*) ...) 18:01:36 Xach: man, don't even go there. ;-) 18:01:41 heh 18:01:44 It's always on my mind! 18:02:04 gigamonkey, that's what that paper I read actually talks about 18:02:11 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.24] has joined #lisp 18:02:12 ezakimak: the difference *is* somewhat similar to pointers, in that p = foo and *p = foo will do very different things 18:02:21 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:02:24 it probably should not be titled "idiot's guide" because you have to be a genius to understand it 18:02:29 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:02:32 ezakimak: url? 18:02:44 if you have a foo (int *ptr) { ptr = &10; }, it won't influence the caller 18:02:45 hrm. dunno, i just had the pdf lying around 18:02:47 lemme find it 18:02:48 No, you don't. Erann Gat's guides are generally awful. 18:02:52 & is more or less the binding here 18:03:12 It helps if you learn how it works on its own terms without trying to adapt or map it to something you already know. 18:03:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:21 yes, that's true 18:03:37 http://www.flownet.com/gat/specials.pdf 18:03:40 ezakimak: again, try to forget about pointers in C, and think of arrows 18:03:53 -!- SolarBoom [~Nurlan@109.127.15.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 18:04:01 Lisp's calling convention is pass-arrow-by-value 18:04:02 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:19 That's a novel and stupid-sounding way to describe it. 18:04:20 arrows? Seriously... it's a reference. Everything is passed by value, but all values are references. 18:04:38 Xach: but that's what it is, and it's more graphical 18:04:56 ezakimak: you may want to take a look at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html 18:04:58 pkhuong: I can't draw a reference. An arrow however... 18:05:28 yeah, I've disected that chapter a million times 18:05:36 *gigamonkey* is sad. 18:05:36 quite the non sequitur. 18:05:45 i came up with what I thought was a good understanding... lol 18:06:01 ezakimak: anyway, if you've really implemented a C compiler, you shouldn't have such problems. Both C and Lisp pass everything by value, always 18:06:05 ok, maybe if I work backwards from values 18:06:10 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 18:06:11 but some values can be references 18:06:27 i... don't know how you could ever pass anything but a value 18:06:35 except that some values are addresses 18:06:44 in lisp, i understand that values themselves are variants--meaning that a value is itself at least conceptually a pointer with associated type information 18:06:45 call-by-name 18:06:47 correct? 18:06:47 Landr: oh, you just lack imagination. 18:07:07 't is true, tv ruined it :( 18:07:07 ezakimak: yes, that's correct. 18:07:37 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:07:39 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 18:07:40 then, talking about lexical symbols, there would be an internal symbol table making FOO to a value--the entry in this mapping would be the binding 18:07:44 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:07:46 (The place that's not quite true is for immutable values that can be represented in a machine word less a few bits, such as fixnums and characters.) 18:08:06 gigamonkey: but conceptually it's still true 18:08:10 and each lexical scope would introduce a new internal symbol table where a new FOO entry could shadow the entry in the previous scope's table (conceptually at least) 18:08:12 correct? 18:08:18 ezakimak: well, after a function is compiled, for lexical variables the symbol table is likely gone. 18:08:18 gigamonkey: that's just an implementation detail (until you play with EQ) 18:08:30 it doesn't matter if you have a unique 3 or many 3's, and in fact it's specifically undefined 18:08:37 pkhuong: yes. Which is why I'm in the ignore-the-existence-of-EQ camp. 18:08:57 i'm just talking concept here, not implementation 18:09:07 i realize that lots of optimizations may be possible 18:09:19 Sure. But if you talk about a symbol table, that implies there is one, and I'm saying there's probably not. 18:09:33 but it would still behave as if there were, no? 18:09:50 ezakimak: sort of, until you get to special variables and SYMBOL-VALUE 18:09:58 No. (defun foo (x) (eval 'x)) 18:10:02 i'm still talking about lexical symbols 18:10:05 ezakimak: a symbol table *is* an impleentation detail. 18:10:07 thinking about symbol tables for lexical bindings will get you confused there 18:10:15 Doesn't work because there's no runtime mapping between the symbol X and the binding created when FOO is called. 18:10:17 ok. back to square one then 18:10:42 i obviously am missing some fundamental concept to understanding this 18:10:52 ezakimak: local variables are more like it (although you can't assume stack allocation because of closures) 18:10:57 and keep going back to what I know--C, which doesn't map 18:11:14 sorry I've asked question and gone. I'll read this urls. thanks 18:11:16 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3246569973032676@naggum.no.html has a take on explaining bindings which ends with nice joke 18:11:18 ezakimak: lexical scoping in C and in Lisp are the same thing. 18:12:33 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:12:36 auto variables aren't stored in a symbol table in C either. 18:12:40 but C does not have closures 18:12:57 the compiler has a symbol table at compile time 18:13:07 Yes. But not at runtime. Same thing in Lisp. 18:13:12 right 18:13:44 doesn't c99 specify anonymous functions? 18:13:46 ezakimak: closures are a way to ensure lexical scoping still works in the presence of first-class functions. I'd focus on understanding lexical scoping first; the rest just follows. 18:13:47 (I may be mistaken) 18:14:03 antifuchs: you are 18:14:06 antifuchs: c++0x. 18:14:09 ah. 18:14:19 c, c++0x what is difference 18:14:23 huge 18:14:24 (i.e., closures are an implementation detail as well) 18:14:26 C is less insane 18:14:28 python has lambdas. C++ kind-of-sorta-if-you-squint has lambdas via meta-programming 18:14:30 haha, sorry, joking. 18:14:48 I was making the same mistake as people asking about lisp/scheme do 18:14:56 antifuchs: c++ has even pointier brackets. 18:15:01 hmm 18:15:05 pkhuong: awwww, it's like html! 18:15:24 ok, so now I have lists to play with using intersection and union and stuff... but how should I use vectors? o.O 18:15:43 C++ is taking all the high-level concepts from C and wrapping them in the elegant syntax of Perl 18:15:48 maybe stroustrup should read taste for the web (-: 18:15:54 dstatyvka [ejabberd@91.194.72.7] has joined #lisp 18:16:03 >perl >elegant syntax >oh_u.jpg 18:16:50 perl is elegant for a rat's nest :) 18:16:59 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:01 that's kinda the point 18:17:16 C++ is just getting worse imo (syntax wise) 18:17:23 please take your non-lisp-related opinions elsewhere. 18:17:31 sorry. 18:17:32 yeah, sorry for derailing this. 18:17:39 let's stick to the topic 18:17:45 HG`` [~HG@p5DC04CD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:52 Landr: if you had the vectors #(1 4 7) and #(2 4 7 9) do you see how you could produce the union or intersection pretty easily? 18:17:53 antifuchs: so we can get back to talking about #! links? 18:18:04 so, my current undestanding of lexical scoping is basically magic occurs. :) 18:18:09 Xach: well, yes, but I take it I have to write my own functions then? 18:18:16 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:18:22 ezakimak: maybe you should read SICP. 18:18:26 Landr: yes. 18:18:32 it's because pkhuong said I should use sorted vectors... though i'm not sure how that'd work (or why, rather) 18:18:32 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 18:18:34 gigamonkey: hey! you can even use #( links - proper nested parens (: 18:18:35 ezakimak: and yet you code in C? It's the same scoping rules. 18:18:39 oh right 18:18:46 i understand the rules, just not the behaviorj 18:18:47 Landr: xach means that'd you basically need a list to operate on, and then produce a vector on the output 18:18:55 ezakimak: same behaviour as well. 18:19:07 unithrick: no. 18:19:10 if I pass a pointer in C, and modify the target, the target gets modified 18:19:34 unithrick: I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not talking about that. 18:19:40 -!- HG` [~HG@p579F7895.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:19:46 okay then, I need to go home anyway 18:19:52 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC04CD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:19:57 Watch out for arrows on the way! 18:20:12 -!- unithrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:20:19 ezakimak: but not the pointer themselves. 18:20:33 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-140-183.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:20:35 lemoinem [~swoog@115-85-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:14 ezakimak: same thing in CL. (let ((x (list 42))) (foo x)) . FOO can change the list that is bound to X, but not bind X to another value. 18:21:39 so are you saying that (defvar *x* 3) (defun foo (x) (setf x 4)) (foo *x*) evaluates *x* to 3, and passes a copy of 3 to foo, then foo setfs the copy to 4? 18:22:10 but in C i can change the value of what X points to--by changing the contents of the place it is pointing to 18:22:16 It passes a different reference to the same value, in this case 3. 18:22:52 ezakimak: the difference is that you can't take a pointer to a variable in CL. The behaviour is exactly the same. 18:23:02 No, when (foo *x*) is evaluated, *x* is evaluted to 3. That value (or a copy) is passed to FOO which binds it to X. When you (setf x 4) it changes the value of that binding to 4. 18:23:13 Then FOO returns and the binding to X goes away. 18:23:20 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:23:26 ok, so what I was missing was that *x* was evaluated first, not passed in 18:23:59 ezakimak: There is no fundamental relation between lexical scoping and being able to take a reference to a variable. 18:24:40 so how would I create a function that would allow me to change the value of a variable? 18:24:41 jackhill [jackhill@pilot.trilug.org] has joined #lisp 18:24:45 ezakimak: you don't. 18:25:07 does (and ..) short circuit in clisp like c++'s && operator? 18:25:11 bad_alloc: yes. 18:25:15 (defvar *x* 3) (defvar *y* 4) (defun foo (z) (setf z (+ z 1)) 18:25:16 thanks :) 18:25:44 i assume i need a macro for that instead? 18:25:49 ezakimak: (defmacro & (variable) `(lambda (s &optional v) (if s (setq ,variable v) ,variable))) (defun deref (ptr) (funcall ptr nil)) (defun (setf deref) (newval ptr) (funcall ptr t newval)) 18:26:15 ezakimak: then you can write (defun f (*p) (setf (deref *p) 42)) (let ((n 0)) (f (& n)) n) --> 42 18:26:55 ezakimak: in Common Lisp, that's how you can pass a reference to a variable, and modify the variable from the called function. 18:26:57 ezakimak: or you make sure to want something else. e.g., pass a list around everywhere, and mutate that list. You're not mutating bindings, but rather the contents that is pointed to by the bindings (just like a pointer in C). 18:27:30 so is there no way to do that w/o an outer container type? 18:27:35 (besides the macro way) 18:27:39 ezakimak: with some more effort, you can make & work correctly on any place too, so that you can call (f (aref v (incf i))). 18:27:44 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 18:27:53 (f (& (aref v (incf i)))) i mean. 18:28:20 ezakimak: just like in C. You're asking me how to modify a variable from another function without passing a pointer to it. 18:28:23 -!- stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:28:37 BUT. This is not advised. You can write FORTRAN code in any language, you can also write C code in Lisp. But then there are perfectly good C compilers. 18:29:20 i'm understanding that i need to change my paradigm--every time when I think I've "got" lisp, i discover i'm still not there yet 18:30:07 i started sicp a long time ago, but stopped because I wanted to learn cl not scheme 18:30:21 You could use this & and deref, but this would lead to the same class of bugs you get in C. 18:30:48 It's better to adopt a more functionnal style (even if not purely and strictly functionnal, we're not masochists). 18:31:09 Have you considered just writing something and letting things gel with practice? It's not exactly the sort of thing that practicioners have trouble with. 18:31:13 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:31:29 ezakimak: If you really want to know how things can be implemented, Lisp in Small Pieces has pretty good info. 18:31:40 well, i don't have a specific project to write yet 18:31:47 but I'm sure that would help 18:31:49 vsedach [~user@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:31:54 ezakimak: yeah Lisp in Small Pieces might be even better than SICP. 18:31:59 For this purpose. 18:32:05 i actually started rewriting my acm problem sets in lisp maybe I'll do that 18:32:31 Right, there's a difference between trying to understand lisp to code in it and understanding how to compile it. 18:32:51 Evious [~n_a@s64-180-62-209.bc.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:08 well, i always like the deeper understanding. that's why i taught myself assembler ages ago 18:35:02 ezakimak: what code means and how it's executed aren't the same thing. I'd try to get at least a decent understanding of the former before starting on the latter. 18:35:12 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Quit: Love is the law, love under Will.] 18:35:24 aperturefever [~abell@ppp079166187001.dsl.hol.gr] has joined #lisp 18:35:57 so what I'm understanding from this is that understanding the under-the-hood is not going to help understand at the conceptual level 18:36:43 It works better the other way around, especially if you want to be able to work with optimised code. 18:37:17 guess I'll just dig in some more then. thx for trying to straighten me out 18:38:40 -!- vsedach [~user@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:42:13 macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.109.48] has joined #lisp 18:43:02 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:43:13 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:44:01 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:44:09 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:54 on the other hand, introductory algebra works better with examples (and a long list of caveats). I wonder if it's better to gain a flawed understanding than none at all. 18:45:08 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:48:34 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:49:10 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:50:38 brodo [~brodo@p5B023C88.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:11 fsrt [~m@talula.plus.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:02 stis_ [~stis@host-95-193-67-216.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:28 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:21 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.24] has quit [Quit: Offline] 18:55:34 leifw [~user@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:44 chemistry and physics education have a long history of "lies to children" as part of didactic model, along with teaching pupils to experiment and observe 18:59:51 kpreid [~kpreid@Lee.wlan.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 19:00:06 pkhuong: it looks like we don't have a choice, "understanding" being based on the examples, and applications (which don't stay theorical formula), while "knowledge" is necessarily formal, if it is to be flawless. 19:00:08 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 19:00:16 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.134.9] has joined #lisp 19:00:45 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0076.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 19:00:49 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:08 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:01:59 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-106-133.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:39 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 19:03:43 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-192-29.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:05:08 xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has joined #lisp 19:06:05 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-30-157.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:06:32 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@85-127-192-118.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:06:55 so I just ran across the * shortcut, does that also work in code or just at the REPL? 19:07:03 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.134.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:07:09 ezakimak: only at the REPL. 19:07:12 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 19:07:13 It's a REPL feature. 19:07:21 ok 19:07:35 * ** *** + ++ +++ - / // /// 19:08:15 ? 19:08:19 italic [~italic@cpe-67-242-144-94.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:33 Those are the variables updated by the REPL at each iteration 19:08:44 oh. 19:09:21 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:53 hi. how can i define a function on a clos object to test equality? 19:10:32 Bike [~arm@69.166.35.233] has joined #lisp 19:10:53 italic: depends what you mean by equality. 19:11:14 (defgeneric my-notion-of-equality (a b)) and go to town. 19:11:37 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:11:39 italic: there's no standard generic function for that. However, you can define your own and pass it as an equality predicate anywhere you want. 19:11:43 i have a point with :x and :y, i want to know if 2 points have the same value when passed to #'equal 19:11:53 pkhuong: except to MAKE-HASH-TABLE :-( 19:12:14 italic: sounds like a great spec. Now implement it. ;-) 19:12:35 italic: you can't add methods to EQUAL, if that's what you mean. 19:12:52 so i would define a method on the point object for 'equal'? 19:13:20 sounds like you want to define POINT= 19:13:52 how can I parse a string or symbol to letters? (sorry if this question is nonsense, I'm trying to learn common lisp) 19:14:00 Or you could use complex numbers to represent points and use EQL. 19:14:20 bsod1: a string is a sequence of characters. you can access its elements with things like char and aref. 19:14:21 can eql access specific slots and test? 19:14:28 (loop for c aross (string x) collect c) 19:14:42 italic: no. But EQL of complex numbers does what you want. 19:14:43 italic: no. 19:14:45 bsod1: a symbol's name is a string and is available with SYMBOL-NAME. 19:15:05 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:11 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:19 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:40 so i should forget about testing with EQUAL, and just use my own function 19:15:46 italic: yes. 19:16:19 ok, thanks 19:16:21 Xach: thanks, and how can I know a string or symbol name's length? 19:16:39 Xach: I see there's no way to get last letter with something like (char "string" -1) 19:16:40 bsod1: the obscurely-named function LENGTH will return it 19:16:46 Xach: :) 19:17:18 Xach: thanks. what is the best way in common lisp to get, for example length-2. element of a sequence? 19:17:18 why can't the loop's acces the variable remaining-boxes, which is declared in a let? do i have to use global vars? code  http://cxg.de/_93706c.htm 19:17:24 bsod1: nope, arrays don't work that way in CL. 19:17:37 -!- stis_ [~stis@host-95-193-67-216.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:18:07 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-68.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:18:12 bsod1: get the length, subtract 2. 19:18:25 Xach: ok, thanks 19:18:42 or subtract 1? And what happens when the string is empty? 19:20:45 bad_alloc: why do you think it can't access remaining-boxes? 19:21:19 Xach: my debugegr says: EVAL: Die Variable REMAINING-BOXES hat keinen Wert. 19:21:19 [Condition of type SYSTEM::SIMPLE-UNBOUND-VARIABLE] 19:21:35 trabslation: The variable remaining-boxes has no value 19:21:45 (sorry, german clisp) 19:21:47 bad_alloc: you haven't provided enough context to actually try your example. 19:22:06 Xach: ok, coming up 19:22:08 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:23:01 My compiler says that SECBOX is an undefined variable. 19:24:24 pkhuong: did you create sorted-list? 19:24:30 Are there good docs for CL-IRC around? And is this channel entirely questions? 19:24:44 stis [~stis@host-95-193-67-216.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:52 Bike: No to both, I suspect. 19:24:54 hastily pasted http://cxg.de/_128bfd.htm 19:24:59 i hope this works 19:25:02 Xach: I have to assume it exists. 19:25:03 Bike: no, sometimes we engage in newbie baiting. 19:25:03 it's answers too 19:25:13 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:26:17 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:21 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:26:29 I see. Thought so. 19:26:35 pkhuong: you could assume secbox does, too... 19:26:50 Xach: that one looks like partial refactoring to me ;) 19:26:58 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 19:27:06 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27:30 Is CL-IRC still actively used? 19:27:47 Bike: ccl-logbot uses it. 19:28:03 Ok, this one should be correct. http://cxg.de/paste.php I still can't acces remaining-boxes. 19:28:39 I was thinking I could try writing up at least API documentation for it. 19:28:41 bad_alloc: it asks me to paste something, but i have nothing to paste 19:29:54 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:30:02 http://cxg.de/_ffec94.htm 19:30:24 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.208.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:33 sorry stassats. hurried to much .-. 19:30:35 why sorted-list doesn't have ear-muffs? 19:30:54 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:37 i beg your pardon? 19:31:50 The asterisks around global variable names. *sorted-list*. 19:31:55 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:31:57 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:32:28 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-29-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:32:39 hm, inconsistent style. 19:32:42 *|3b|* wonders if that was coded on one of those unusually short/wide netbook displays or something.... lots of stuff tacked onto one line for no obvious reason 19:33:15 <|3b|> bad_alloc: are you getting that error while using C-c C-c in slime? 19:33:19 orivej [~orivej@host-29-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 19:33:28 <|3b|> if so, fix indentation and try again 19:33:39 |3b|: no, it's C-M-x 19:33:45 <|3b|> ok, same problem 19:34:10 your COND is malformed. 19:34:30 <|3b|> emacs uses ( as first character on line as a heuristic for finding start of a defun, so it only goes as far as the (loop, and misses the (let above that 19:34:46 hm, strange, if i paste it into the repl it works 19:35:04 well almost, firstbox and secondbox are always nil 19:35:20 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:35:26 pkhuong: which one? 19:35:37 bad_alloc: ear-muffs aren't about style, they help you to not get confused when you use special variables 19:36:00 bad_alloc: the first one. 19:36:10 ah i see it. 19:38:24 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:12 -!- Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has left #lisp 19:39:21 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:39:23 fisxoj [~fisxoj@24.59.205.231] has joined #lisp 19:39:50 hm, not it runs (at least.) but why do firstbox and secondbox always remain nil? 19:40:15 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Lee.wlan.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:40:30 current code: http://cxg.de/_fc1afa.htm 19:41:38 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:42:04 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:17 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-29-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:42:41 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:54 <|3b|> bad_alloc: if remaining-boxes is NIL, loop for ... in (reverse remaining-boxes) doesn't seem like it would do much 19:43:55 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:00 thanks |3b|, i thought it was some lisp-related thing, that blocked out the let in the loops. 19:47:48 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:47:49 <|3b|> also, you don't need to compare things to NIL, since anything that isn't NIL is 'true' 19:48:03 <|3b|> or if you want to be explicit about checking for the end of a list, you can use ENDP 19:49:31 <|3b|> and you don't need the PROGN inside the COND clauses 19:50:10 <|3b|> (which is one reason some people suggest replacing IF with COND when the branches are complicated enough to need PROGN 19:51:23 grr 19:51:29 why will my slime sometimes refuse to continue 19:51:35 it just blocks like that 19:52:13 |3b| thanks for the guidance, it's beginning to work (slowly) 19:52:15 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:53:04 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@wireless-128-62-203-51.public.utexas.edu] has left #lisp 19:54:16 flip214 [~marek@h081217084238.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 19:54:21 -!- flip214 [~marek@h081217084238.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Changing host] 19:54:21 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 19:55:21 I've noticed that current quicklisp-swank doesn't use the TCP port I give to him. 19:55:30 Has anybody else observed that already? 19:56:41 I observed that usocket (make-instance sb-bsd-socket) seems to allocate a local port immediately, and then won't bind to the port I wanted. 19:59:10 Ah, there're updates for quicklisp ... eg. usocket ... 20:00:04 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:01:21 flip214: I don't think swank uses usocket 20:01:55 Well, it looked that way to me ... at least swank used cl-bsd-socket (IIRC), and that's in usocket? 20:02:22 sb-bsd-socket is an SBCL contrib... usocket uses that, and I think swank does too 20:02:53 well, after updating all quicklisp things it works again ;-) 20:02:58 nice (: 20:02:59 so thank you, but never mind 20:03:20 perhaps just some version incompatibilities (API changes) or whatever 20:12:03 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has joined #lisp 20:12:10 Patagous [970fd7b2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.15.215.178] has joined #lisp 20:12:47 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-135-167.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:54 Hello all. 20:13:20 beach: I don't suppose you're here right now, are you? 20:13:23 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:13:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:14:37 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:14:42 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:15:31 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:16:29 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:16:58 ezakimak: in the spirit of Krystof's lies to children, does https://gist.github.com/926068 help? 20:17:38 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:18:24 pkhuong, over my head still atm 20:18:28 i'll file that away however 20:19:14 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host94-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:20:03 ezakimak: it's just code that could be ported directly to C or Python. 20:20:45 So, today's special CLIM find: OPEN-WINDOW-STREAM has an :INPUT-BUFFER argument. This can be either an extended input stream input buffer object (an unspecialized vector with a fill pointer) or an event queue. 20:21:15 The only way to obtain an event queue is via SHEET-EVENT-QUEUE, and the only thing that can be done with an event queue is to pass it to OPEN-WINDOW-STREAM. 20:21:39 Note that you can't pass both an event queue and an input buffer to OPEN-WINDOW-STREAM. 20:22:08 Bronsa [~brace@host94-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:24:25 And then I find that QUEUE-REPAINT adds a repaint event to a sheet's "input queue". 20:24:44 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:56 haha 20:25:03 dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:25:06 sounds like terms weren't completely normalized (: 20:26:03 Yeah, I think the best thing to do with most of this stuff is to throw it out and start over. 20:26:20 take the good idea and start anew 20:26:25 The PROCESS-WAIT stuff is amazing, though. 20:26:48 Completely unimplementable in the modern era, but... amazing. 20:27:29 -!- stis [~stis@host-95-193-67-216.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27:32 emacs auto-indents common lisp code in slime repl but not in source file, how can I make my emacs auto-indent my lisp code? 20:27:55 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B023C88.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 20:28:22 phew 20:28:31 Want to write a CLIM application that monitors a network socket as well as for user events? Set *input-wait-test* to a function that LISTENs on the network stream and *input-wait-handler* to something to deal with network input. 20:28:32 finally made a function that checks whether a list is an assoc list or not 20:28:46 -!- nikodemus` [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:29:09 How can you tell? 20:29:35 *Xach* supposes (every 'listp list) would do the trick 20:29:47 bsod1, http://pastebin.com/Zx9Kium7 20:29:51 put that in your .emacs 20:30:07 STREAM-READ-GESTURE takes the input-wait-test and it ends up getting mixed in with the predicates for the normal event handling. 20:30:21 bsod1: what is your source file named? 20:30:35 simply setting your major mode to lisp should work 20:31:09 And because the predicates are called by the scheduler to determine if a blocked task should be set running again, it's almost not horribly inefficient. 20:31:13 Xach: well, an assoc list is made of assoc-atoms, in the shape of (atom list), so i just check if an atom is correct, and i check all the atoms of a list 20:31:49 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@vpnsh0076.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:31:54 ... Wait, since when did the CAR of an alist element have to be an atom? 20:32:02 did you invent this definition of alist yourself? 20:32:11 ahh, (every 'consp list) then 20:32:16 Xach: Surely it's (every 'consp list)? NIL isn't quite... yeah. 20:32:29 and don't call me shirley 20:33:00 well... for all my purposes it has to be like that :> 20:33:01 ... And, for that matter, #'consp instead of 'consp, to save the overhead of %coerce-callable-to-fun or its equivalent? 20:34:02 orivej [~orivej@217.66.152.29] has joined #lisp 20:34:07 hmm, i guess it's just a list of conses 20:35:05 -!- benny [~benny@i577A84B3.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:35:16 benny [~benny@i577A1EB3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:35:39 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:35:54 is there any diff. between using &aux and let other than brevity? 20:36:22 you'll strange looks if you use &aux 20:36:28 "get" 20:36:30 ezakimak: &aux is more like let*, but no, no difference 20:36:34 other than strange lokos 20:36:36 "looks" 20:36:38 ok 20:36:44 even stranger looks if you declare your aux variables ignorable 20:37:19 -!- pastorn [~alexander@aoeuu.csbnet.se] has left #lisp 20:37:25 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host94-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:38:20 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:39:31 Xach: .cl, I'm trying ezakimak's code 20:39:51 bsod1: Name them .lisp and it will happen automatically. 20:40:06 via slime magic 20:40:53 ezakimak's code didn't work 20:40:54 via emacs magic, rather 20:41:24 -!- Guest63693 is now known as Jabberwockey 20:41:27 Xach: making format .lisp didn't work 20:41:28 or add .cl to your auto-mode-alist 20:41:37 Xach: does quicklisp have hooks to implement "quickload" for non-Lisp dependencies? 20:41:38 I still have to tab every line 20:41:53 ezakimak: &aux becomes -very- useful with defstruct. Lets you do fancy BOA constructors. 20:42:05 to those who tried to commit to cl-net today: your access should be fixed now. 20:42:12 bsod1: that's right, what did you expect? 20:42:16 astalla: No. Quickload is for systems, i.e. things that can be loaded via ASDF. 20:42:20 bsod1: Look for something like "electric newline". 20:42:29 Or maybe "newline-and-indent". 20:42:45 stassats: slime repl auto indents 20:43:25 Xach: ok, thanks. 20:43:26 bsod1: bind "\C-m" to newline-and-indent 20:43:35 (I use that in all modes, and it works rather well) (: 20:43:38 bsod1: C-j does that 20:43:42 astalla: did you have something in particular in mind? 20:43:59 goddamnit, slime crashes every two calls 20:44:06 this is impossible to work in 20:44:21 Landr: ... clisp? 20:44:26 stassats, thx for that! 20:44:26 no, sbcl 20:44:28 Xach: I'm thinking about stealing some stuff from Leiningen (Clojure build tool) to make it easy to dynamically load Java libraries from ABCL (via Maven). 20:44:29 Ouch. 20:44:30 <|3b|> ehu: is lisppaste down intentionally? 20:44:48 Landr: can you describe what happens? 20:44:57 i'm using slime + sbcl--no problems here 20:44:57 sure, lemme crash it 20:45:08 and your specific environment 20:45:14 Oh, right. lisppaste. How's the clnet migration thing going, anyway? 20:45:15 astalla: ASDF systems can do a lot of stuff, so maybe that could be wired together somehow. But ASDF is the starting point for Quicklisp loading. 20:45:31 like e.g. (quickj:quickload '("com.whatever" "great-library" "1.0.0")) 20:45:40 error in process filter: Wrong number of arguments: (lambda nil), 4 20:45:58 then it decides not to bother returning a prompt 20:46:01 Landr: what did you do? 20:46:12 Xach: ok. I don't know ASDF very well, I'll see what I can do. 20:46:13 *JuanDaugherty* smells 64 v. 32. 20:46:15 made a perfectly valid call, oddly enough :< 20:46:25 Landr: can you do M-x toggle-debug-on-error and paste the backtrace? 20:46:36 let's see 20:46:42 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #lisp 20:46:43 Landr: You don't have mismatched slime elisp vs. swank versions, do you? 20:46:52 erm... i don't know :< 20:47:04 did it yell at you upon connecting? 20:47:22 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:47:22 Landr, obviously your configuration is broken. 20:47:51 that's not obvious to me, i'm still waiting for the backtrace 20:47:52 stassats: it always yells at me, not as much as sbcl itself though 20:47:57 lemme pastebin it 20:48:26 Landr: did you ask you about version mismatch? 20:48:32 ? 20:48:37 not that I know :\ 20:48:40 s/you/it/ 20:48:40 he meant himself 20:48:56 ok, the lisp paste is not loading 20:49:07 use whatever you know 20:49:29 http://pastebin.com/wJjYF1kT 20:49:33 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-192-29.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:50:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-167.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:33 atomx` [~user@86.35.150.23] has joined #lisp 20:50:40 well, the good news is i found the bug that's causing it 20:50:53 nyef: should I restart lisppaste? 20:50:54 the bad news is it still doesn't explain why swank rolls over and dies on me 20:50:56 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75556b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:13 blargh 20:51:21 *Landr* should install slime properly 20:51:40 Landr: how old is your slime? 20:51:47 ehu: Hrm. Did the lisppaste account get migrated over? 20:51:58 Or is it set up on a subdomain or something? 20:52:01 nyef: only the storage. 20:52:30 stassats: how can I tell? 20:52:31 dalkvist [~cairdazar@h-2-115.A322.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:52:35 nyef: however, there was a group ownership issue until 30 minutes ago. 20:52:40 nyef: that's been fixed though 20:52:43 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-192-29.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:52:44 Hrm. 20:52:45 Landr: M-x slime-changelog-date 20:52:58 (but it could have caused issues in the mean time, of course) 20:53:09 don't have that :< 20:53:16 very old, i take it 20:53:19 ; loading #P"/home/vser/.slime/fasl/2009-09-18/sbcl-1.0.37-linux-x86/swank-backend.fasl" 20:53:24 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-156-121.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:28 yes :\ installed it from package, bad idea 20:53:29 but that does seem to be an emacs error 20:53:39 nyef: well, I wouldn't personally mind if lisppaste were to run its own VM, just like cliki. 20:53:41 Oh! Just thought of why I might not be able to log in: This is a relatively fresh install, and I haven't migrated my ssh keys yet. 20:53:52 Landr: how old is your emacs? 20:53:55 -!- dalkvist [~cairdazar@h-2-115.A322.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Client Quit] 20:54:13 GNU Emacs 23.2.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.20.1) of 2010-05-08 on pidsley.hoetzel.info 20:54:15 nyef: I've restarted the bots already. 20:54:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-2-64.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 20:54:21 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-2-64.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Changing host] 20:54:21 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 20:54:38 burn it all down and compile myself? 20:54:40 (I hope you don't mind; looking at 'top' output now) 20:54:57 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 20:55:31 Mmm. I don't mind at all. Too bad it takes so bloody long to start up. :-/ 20:55:33 -!- fsrt [~m@talula.plus.com] has left #lisp 20:55:34 Landr: if that's your only way of updating it 20:55:42 (One of these days I should make a point of fixing that.) 20:55:43 yup, ah well 20:56:25 Okay, I'm attached to the screen, and I seem to recall that this is the point where it's scrambling to reload the paste database. 20:57:04 it's my experience this point can take up to 15 minutes. 20:57:16 is that about right? 20:57:33 (we're only down 1 according to 'top' 20:57:42 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:57:42 vsedach [~user@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:59:49 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:00:32 Yeah, a quarter hour sounds not unreasonable for this stage at this point, although it just gets longer over time. 21:00:51 As I said, I need to do something about the time spent at some point. 21:00:58 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 21:01:10 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:40 nyef: or we need to find someone interested enough to learn a bit of lisp to do it today :-) 21:01:50 stassats: I didn't update slime this month because I'm frightened of breakage. Do you think I should have updated anyway? 21:01:57 I'd happily configure a postgres database for the purpose. 21:02:10 What, let some random person mess with these bots? They're delicate enough as it is! 21:02:18 a copy. 21:02:19 Xach: there was no major changes this month, i don't expect any breakage 21:02:28 not the main ones! 21:02:40 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.109.48] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:42 what's wrong with common-lisp.net? None of the projects are responding. 21:03:00 JuanDaugherty: what does that mean? 21:03:14 macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.109.48] has joined #lisp 21:03:23 JuanDaugherty: Not responding at all, or just being very slow? 21:03:27 it means if I go to commonlisp.net and select a project the browser stalls out 21:03:35 in fact, there was no changes between march 14 and april 14 at all 21:03:35 hmm. 21:03:43 what the h*** 21:03:50 how's that possible? 21:03:57 <|3b|> common-lisp.net got very slow in last few minutes 21:04:03 oh. 21:04:05 hehe. 21:04:10 because of lisppaste? 21:04:12 that's probably lisppaste 21:04:15 yea. 21:04:19 Massive system load from parsing a huge number of xml files? 21:04:30 i blame XML 21:04:32 nyef: yup. and reading them over the network. 21:04:44 Bwah? 21:04:46 :-/ 21:04:51 sure. 21:04:54 -Please- tell me you're not paying for that bandwidth! 21:05:00 I'm not. 21:05:06 Phew. 21:05:10 it's within datacenter. 21:05:18 <|3b|> bandwidth is cheap these days anyway :p 21:05:31 (An obnoxious amount of that data just gets discarded immediately by the GC.) 21:05:42 but it seems lisppaste is a good candidate for moving over asap. 21:06:34 nyef: is lisppaste tied to the common-lisp.net site? 21:06:35 ya think? 21:06:49 if not, we could move it without much issue. 21:06:52 I honestly don't know. 21:06:57 only thing to do is change the dns pointer. 21:07:11 (and start lisppaste on new-cl-net) 21:07:43 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 21:07:49 ok. I'm off for the night. 21:07:53 The main things are the web server, the xml-rpc server if it's still running, and the $n$ IRC bots (four, I think, these days). 21:08:04 Right, have a good evening. 21:08:19 send me any cl-net fallout reports through clo-devel@ 21:08:25 later! 21:09:15 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:09:20 *nyef* almost can't believe that we're still using araneida for anything in this day and age. 21:09:31 "if it works, don't touch it" 21:09:44 why don't you put that shit on google or sumthin? That's what those monsters are for. 21:10:25 it predates google 21:11:42 ancient software, running on some mainframe deep in the the mazes of service corridors and forgotten storage rooms in some venerable company's building 21:12:17 -!- leifw [~user@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:12:52 unlikely 21:12:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:13:00 <|3b|> nah, they know where the ancient software is running (and in fact moving it to new hardware is part of the cause of the current problems) 21:13:13 Landr: no.This one requires restarts, so it's not forgotten... now, If we had built it on something like NonStop, or VMS cluster (with HA built into application) or similar... thenwe would have a problemthe day someone pulled the plug :P 21:13:55 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:12 and sbcl doesn't run on mainframes yet, only on Blue Gene 21:14:26 I wonder... how much lisppaste data /is/ there? 21:14:48 *|3b|* would guess a lot, since paste #s are over 100k 21:15:11 nice (: 21:15:24 do they never expire? 21:15:28 some do 21:15:31 can you override #'+ for clos objects? ie. (+ my-point1 my-point2) 21:15:41 italic: no CL:+ 21:15:42 italic: not cl:+ 21:15:43 *not 21:15:45 ezakimak: Paste expiry is an option that can be set when making a paste in the first place. 21:16:00 maybe the default should be changed to something short? 21:16:06 ezakimak: no 21:16:12 <|3b|> nah, just need to fix the DB 21:16:13 so i'd create a new + function in my package 21:16:25 ezakimak: nah, better to have old solutions to problems available 21:16:33 you never know when you'll need them! (: 21:16:40 (or somebody else) 21:16:41 are they reference somewhere? indexed? 21:16:47 google indexes them 21:16:48 ezakimak: google 21:16:50 and I think there's search 21:16:51 ah 21:16:57 well in that case 21:16:57 <|3b|> google, irc logs, etc 21:17:09 are there logs for this channel? 21:17:11 seo might be improved, but it has helped me a lot (: 21:17:13 yes 21:17:18 i tried to find them but couldn't 21:17:20 minion: LOGS 21:17:23 MIIIINIIIOOON! 21:17:30 <|3b|> minion knows about them once bots wake up again 21:17:39 e.g. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/11.04.18 21:17:41 *nyef* notes that the master paste index as far as the lisppaste software itself is concerned is called *PASTES*, and contains a list of all the pastes known to the system. 21:17:48 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-192-29.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:18:02 nyef: that sounds sub-optimal 21:18:05 zomgbie [~jesus@85.127.192.29] has joined #lisp 21:18:08 No kidding! 21:18:21 must have worked well for the first 25 pastes or so (; 21:18:34 It's mostly-fine for hitting up the more recent pastes, but consider what it takes to rebuild it when it gets discarded! 21:19:01 oh definitely 21:19:03 is there a search for the logs? 21:19:09 (When does it get discarded? I'll give you a hint... we're rebuilding it now, which is why clnet is getting absolutely hammered.) 21:19:17 ezakimak: there used to be, but it fell off the net 21:19:23 ... where could one get the source? 21:19:29 you can download them and use grep 21:19:37 or just use google 21:19:38 i don't know which day I need... 21:19:46 use ack (-: 21:19:47 download all of them 21:19:48 tried google, it aparently doesn't index that page 21:19:50 and wget -r (: 21:20:53 wget -r .com :> 21:20:59 Once the bots stay reliably connected, it might be nice to have them keep logs as well. 21:20:59 nothing http will work until the contention ceases 21:21:17 nyef: two logs are not enough? 21:22:03 ccl-logbot: where do you store logs? 21:22:12 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:22:13 cagey, huh? 21:22:29 http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/ 21:22:36 stassats: Given the reliability issues? No. Given that we can throw a new search interface, and so on, over them? No. 21:23:00 <|3b|> would be nice to have the 'context' links back in lisppaste too 21:23:07 That too! 21:23:18 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.14.106] has joined #lisp 21:23:18 yeah, the kmr logs were the best 21:23:23 (ircsearch.com, I miss you) 21:23:36 were those the bmeme ones? 21:23:39 <|3b|> which would sort of work with the existing logs, but really needs something linkable with better than 1 day resolution 21:23:54 yeah, meme. that was it 21:23:55 JuanDaugherty: Yeah, meme.b9.com or whatever it was. 21:24:10 permalinks for IRC messages. good times. 21:24:32 but you couldn't say anything nasty 21:24:53 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-169-52.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:26:06 cl.net expires in a couple months 21:27:09 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-90.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:35 stassats: haha, if you're worried about that, better quit now (: 21:27:48 or let me steal the xkcd phrase: "fuck. that. shit." 21:28:07 "i don't give a damn 'bout my reputation" 21:28:34 there's church ladies up in here, they'll let you know in a bit 21:28:43 rather, I don't want to limit my self-expression based on the most pessimistic estimations of future people i"m going to interact with 21:28:44 stassats: you're safe...nobody would know to associate "stassats" with Stas Boukarev 21:29:02 <|3b|> Xach: who uses real names though? 21:29:13 maybe that's not my real name! 21:29:18 people who'll be assassinated soon 21:29:26 *|3b|* supposes 'people who care about silly words' do 21:29:52 my real name is in cyrillic, anyway 21:30:13 That'd be a good undergrad AI project: given a list of IRC nicks, automatically determine who the person likely is. 21:30:30 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85.127.192.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:30:51 something like "nick: grumpy old man"? 21:30:56 Not much of a challenge for some of us ;) 21:30:59 Based on what, web search? 21:31:04 Bike: yeah. 21:31:07 <|3b|> and for the postgrad version, take the ones it couldn't guess, go online and convince them to tell you? 21:31:18 |3b|: ;-) 21:31:36 and for the phd version, convince everyone you're the real one 21:32:07 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-217-151.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:33:40  ? 21:33:50 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.134.9] has joined #lisp 21:34:50 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 21:37:18 -!- vsedach [~user@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:44:57 stassats: that's easy - that nick turned into Grumpy Old One, and that's clearly great cthulhu 21:45:23 Krystof: that's not my full name! 21:45:55 stassats: A squad has already been dispatched, it's too late now 21:47:35 what's your patronymic, something like ? 21:47:36 and there's no patronymic, you can't find me! 21:47:44 antifuchs: ... Cthulhu isn't that impressive nowadays... compared to humanity. 21:47:56 antifuchs: otoh, we are quite Eldritch 21:48:14 the universe is even more uncaring than we are 21:48:21 hocwp [~user@AAmiens-156-1-43-91.w90-18.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:48:44 you are stanislav alexandrovic boukarev and I claim my five pounds 21:48:59 Krystof: it's spelled with  after , and no, it's not mine! 21:49:03 bah 21:49:28 I'm allowed to be rusty; it is fifteen years since I last spoke Russian 21:50:12 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:51 antifuchs: true, but universe being uncaring stopped scaring the population in general 21:52:31 we're getting seriously off-topic 21:52:41 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:52:41 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:52:51 yeah let's get to back to cl.net being inaccessible 21:53:05 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:53:39 JuanDaugherty: well, common lisp is old and nobody cares about it anymore 21:53:40 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-183-90.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 21:54:00 really? there's an alternative for it's content? 21:54:48 if you were being funny, ha 21:55:10 JuanDaugherty: ehu is upgrading it right now, I think 21:55:24 thx, antifuchs 21:56:03 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:12 (even though I take it that means sometime in the next few days, at least after he get's up since his parting comment was that he was going to bed) 21:56:27 *gets 21:57:14 <|3b|> more 'current few days' since it is already in progress 21:57:18 btw...what about access tocurrent lisppaste/minion code? 21:57:29 pnq [~nick@AC819BAE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:46 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.203.178] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 21:58:16 <|3b|> i think lisppaste has links to the code or a repo when it is up 21:58:38 not much help if someone wants to set up a replacement when it's down 21:58:56 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:59:08 <|3b|> well, the people who have access to the data when it is down have acces to the source too :) 21:59:33 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:39 *JuanDaugherty* want's his money back! 21:59:46 "wants" 22:00:09 <|3b|> cliki has links to code too, not sure how old it is though 22:00:30 <|3b|> (hosted on cl-net though, so not like you can get it at the moment anyway :) 22:01:06 *JuanDaugherty* slaps the whole channel like Moe. 22:01:11 SPOF much? 22:01:51 <|3b|> i think that is one of the things that might get improved during the upgrade 22:02:08 <|3b|> (if only splitting into separate VMs rather than separate hardware) 22:03:55 chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:58 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has left #lisp 22:03:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:04:18 <|3b|> nyef: does lisppaste/cl-net still look OK? been a bit more than 15 min, dunno if that is just network overhead or if it fell over 22:04:38 Unfortunately, there's no feedback on the loading process. 22:04:54 I can try poking it, though. 22:05:31 <|3b|> not swapping or anything unusual? 22:06:52 Looks like it's getting close to done. It was reading paste 93553 when I hit SIGINT. 22:07:04 <|3b|> cool 22:07:14 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:07:18 I blame the network filesystem overhead for much of the additional startup time. 22:07:27 (And, yes, it's been something like an hour now.) 22:07:51 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 22:08:12 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:08:45 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:09:03 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:09:05 paste loads everything into ram? 22:10:23 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:10:48 brodo [~brodo@p5B023C88.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:48 Yeah, loads everything, then discards the paste bodies. 22:10:58 (weak pointers) 22:11:16 When a paste is accessed and the body is missing, it gets reloaded. 22:11:44 Considering there are six digits worth of pastes, that's not unimpressive. 22:12:09 What's the metadata that's kept in memory? 22:12:35 Almost everything about a paste, save its body text and possibly its attachments. 22:12:53 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:02 And when is that metadata accessed? Obviously when you serve up the paste. Any other times? 22:13:04 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:13:18 The list-pastes views. 22:13:34 New annotations. 22:13:45 I think those are the primary ones. 22:14:06 <|3b|> probably when asking bot about a paste too 22:14:14 Right, right. 22:14:53 Oh, the bot is there too? I thought it just used the web interface 22:15:10 (Ugh. There's a -reason- I take the long way in putting the bots back online. Reloading the paste database sucks... and I'm not entirely convinced that I haven't accidentally broken it somehow just now.) 22:15:29 gtklocker [~gtklocker@adsl-46.109.242.49.tellas.gr] has joined #lisp 22:15:33 -!- gtklocker [~gtklocker@adsl-46.109.242.49.tellas.gr] has left #lisp 22:18:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:19:53 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@209.119.73.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:41 Good morning everyone! 22:21:57 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@209.119.73.178] has joined #lisp 22:22:53 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B082.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:23:32 morning beach 22:23:47 -!- hocwp [~user@AAmiens-156-1-43-91.w90-18.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: goodnight] 22:24:11 -!- pnq [~nick@AC819BAE.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:24:36 astoon [~astoon@109.188.208.55] has joined #lisp 22:24:38 Hello beach. 22:25:54 pnq [~nick@AC8165A0.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:42 -!- SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@209.119.73.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:36 SegFaultAX [~mkbernard@209.119.73.178] has joined #lisp 22:28:52 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:29:09 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:29:20 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:30:05 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 22:30:08 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-205-247.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:06 what's the best way to type check a clos object? check for slots? 22:31:49 (typep 'class-name) 22:32:03 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-30-157.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Quit] 22:32:24 dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:00 tcr1: thanks, i was way off there 22:33:14 <|3b|> see also check-type 22:36:34 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:37:16 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:20 thanks 22:40:12 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:25 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:41:02 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 22:42:04 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:10 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:42:24 -!- aperturefever [~abell@ppp079166187001.dsl.hol.gr] has quit [Quit: aluve] 22:42:31 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:31 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:42:31 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:42:31 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-54-177-186.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:42:31 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:42:52 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:42:52 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:42:52 -!- Intensity [cop7S3Zncr@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:42:59 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:44:03 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.14.106] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:45:04 -!- Harag [~Harag@dsl-242-248-115.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:46:29 -!- Bike [~arm@69.166.35.233] has quit [Quit: ->home.] 22:46:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:47:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:48:53 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@91.194.72.7] has left #lisp 22:51:46 Bahman_ [~Bahman@2.144.222.141] has joined #lisp 22:51:57 -!- Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.209.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:52:31 jeti [~user@p548EB558.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:57 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:54:19 Intensity [JrhZD9zVbT@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 22:55:08 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.134.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:57:52 -!- Pirxs [~Pirx@195.225.69.9] has quit [] 22:58:28 -!- bsod1 [~sinan@88.240.131.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:05:42 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:05:50 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@96.250.215.244] has joined #lisp 23:06:30 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:48 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:08:18 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 23:10:03 /nick  23:10:14 . 23:10:37 freenode refuses non-ascii nicknames :-( 23:11:00 Per the RFC 23:11:22 Let's request some comments about unicode in nicknames... 23:11:52 pushing the envelope there. 23:12:16 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:12:16 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:12:18 Well, I can see one problem with that: ops will have more difficulties to ban some people :-) 23:12:21 a bunch of clients still don't understand utf-8 in privmsgs (: 23:13:26 pjb: thou could use punycode and patch the clients to translate that to unicode 23:13:28 mwahahaha 23:13:30 zomgbie_ [~jesus@84.119.94.103] has joined #lisp 23:15:06 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-218-151.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:17:06 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-217-151.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:19:47 in cl-ppcre, he uses (defmethod m ((class class)) .. is that the preferred style? does it get confusing with the same names for class/var? 23:20:13 xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 23:20:19 <|3b|> it is reasonable if that is a good name for that variable 23:20:36 <|3b|> which it may or may not be depending on the name of the class, how it is used, etc 23:20:56 <|3b|> and might not matter as much for trivial methods 23:21:06 Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has joined #lisp 23:21:45 just seems wierd when i write later (check-type class class) 23:22:13 <|3b|> if you are in a method with that signature, you shouldn't need to 23:22:30 <|3b|> unless you modified it i guess 23:22:43 ah, your right 23:23:53 bike [~aeshtaer@71-38-154-233.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:21 <|3b|> it is reasonably common to for example call a list LIST in a generic list processing function, or similarly for string or vector 23:24:51 so when i return a (make-instance 'class), it knows to make the class and not the var 23:25:12 this is in the method m above 23:25:30 <|3b|> ' prevents class from being evaluated 23:25:45 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:26:02 <|3b|> (make-instance class) would make an instance of whatever class was named by the value stored in the variable class 23:26:38 i got cha. so where does it finally lookup 'class ? 23:27:58 <|3b|> 'class is evaluated to get the symbol class, which is passed to make-instance, which probably does something like calling find-class on it to get an actual class object 23:28:52 *|3b|* doesn't remember MOP stuff enough to tell if that is correct, but somehow it looks up that symbol in the 'class name' namespace 23:29:09 i see. thanks! 23:29:12 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 23:30:17 as far as structuring files, would you put all generics in one, then methods in separate class files? 23:30:18 <|3b|> i guess you can pass an actual class to make-instance, in which case it uses that directly rather than looking it up by name 23:30:29 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:00 <|3b|> depends on the project, that might be reasonable though 23:31:10 i have a point and rect class, each implement clone 23:31:11 *|3b|* tends to be lazy and put lots of stuff in 1 file 23:32:03 *|3b|* wouldn't even use files (at the UI level) if i could get away with it though 23:32:12 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:32:34 i don't understand what you mean 23:33:14 <|3b|> i mean i think 'organizing stuff in files' is overrated, and i'd rather just have better tools for presenting stuff as i need it at edit time 23:33:49 <|3b|> like 'show me a buffer with all the methods on this GF' or 'this function and everything it calls' or whatever 23:34:15 <|3b|> but i'm way too lazy to actually implement any of that, so i just dump stuff in files at random instead :( 23:34:33 cool idea at least 23:35:02 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:35:22 (defmethod name ((name name)) (block name (catch 'name (flet ((name (name) (name name))) (tagbody (name 'name) (go name) (name (function name)) name (let ((name name)) (throw 'name (return-from name (make-instance 'name))))))))) 23:36:22 italic: if you ever wondered why there wasn't any obfuscated lisp contest: it's too easy! 23:36:28 <|3b|> pjb: should have declared one of those special :p 23:36:44 -!- Bahman_ [~Bahman@2.144.222.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36:53 Yes, on cll there are examples with even namespaces. 23:36:54 more 23:36:58 yeah, i think i'll stay away from that naming scheme :P 23:39:08 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.245.203] has joined #lisp 23:39:32 -!- splittist [~splittist@190-247.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:39:36 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.208.55] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:40:51 Any word on when common-lisp.net will be back up? 23:41:02 manana 23:41:07 Mococa [~Mococa@187.114.184.178] has joined #lisp 23:42:05 *Mañana 23:42:34 Tomorrow, then. hrm. 23:43:04 <|3b|> was expected to be back already, lisppaste has been uncooperative though :( 23:43:19 <|3b|> (well, wasn't even expected to have been affected... ) 23:43:25 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442113.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:44:26 orivej_ [~orivej@host-55-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 23:45:14 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.134.9] has joined #lisp 23:45:15 -!- orivej [~orivej@217.66.152.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:46:26 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48:48 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440083.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:54:09 *|3b|* wonders how lisppaste manages to simultaneously be much slower loading due to network filesystem, but still load the system to the point of unrelated web servers not responding 23:55:28 Frankly Dave, I've seen this kind of thing before and it's usually the same thing. 23:55:46 <|3b|> it turned into a rogue AI? 23:59:31 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:59:50 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones]