00:00:15 mutenewt [~mutenewt@66.71.230.192] has joined #lisp 00:02:20 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:03:54 -!- mutenewt [~mutenewt@66.71.230.192] has quit [Client Quit] 00:05:47 mutenewt [~mutenewt@66.71.230.192] has joined #lisp 00:06:31 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 00:07:05 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-194-209-80.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:41 ericbb [~user@blk-224-153-99.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 00:11:01 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:13 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-144-213.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:17:22 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:19:37 -!- gcv [~gcv@70-36-146-103.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: gcv] 00:21:48 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-154-17.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:23 -!- mutenewt [~mutenewt@66.71.230.192] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 00:29:26 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 00:30:33 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:30:48 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-246.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:36:35 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:24 macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.111.154] has joined #lisp 00:43:12 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 00:47:26 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 00:48:37 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-145.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:51:24 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-6.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:53:38 mutenewt [~mutenewt@66.71.230.192] has joined #lisp 00:57:33 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:59:25 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:59:46 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-123-85.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:03:35 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:57 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.22] has joined #lisp 01:04:06 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d850603.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 01:04:35 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 01:06:16 JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has joined #lisp 01:11:11 pnq [~nick@ACA285D9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 01:12:34 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-151-162.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:29 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:15:43 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:18:41 -!- mutenewt [~mutenewt@66.71.230.192] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 01:25:01 -!- macrocat [~marmalade@99.192.111.154] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:28 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-2-151.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 01:26:32 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-170924.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:31:14 -!- ElizabethDysart [~Elizabeth@c-67-184-184-26.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:34:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.145.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:35:02 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:36:08 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:36:09 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 01:36:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:39:44 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:48 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-194-209-80.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:41:26 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:14 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-5-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:07 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 01:50:10 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-151-162.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:54:22 -!- astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55:08 this is the worst function i've ever written http://paste.lisp.org/display/121522 01:55:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:57:32 okay, potential bug for you guys to verify 01:57:47 (ignore-errors (/ 1 (read)) t), then type 0 into the interactive read 01:57:58 sbcl bug, that is 01:58:09 I would expect it to return (values nil ) 01:58:25 clisp returns that. sbcl returns t 01:59:55 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:40 xtcx [~thomas@unaffiliated/xtcx] has joined #lisp 02:01:27 <|3b|> well, it isn't required to signal an error for (/ 1 0) 02:01:29 Quadrescence: what is that supposed to do? 02:01:46 |3b|: it does, though... 02:01:46 -!- thomashc [~thomas@108.129.123.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:02:10 pkhuong: finding the positions of VAL in LST 02:02:15 <|3b|> pkhuong: even when the result of the / is ignored? 02:02:23 like POSITION but returns all such positions 02:02:24 take the last 't off, and it returns (values nil ) 02:02:34 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:46 *|3b|* notes that if you print the result of the / it returns the error 02:02:47 is the a function in CL to remove an item at a given position from a list? 02:02:54 bohanlon_ [~bohanlon@pool-108-20-68-105.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:21 |3b|: mm.. right, we still haven't formally specified what can and can't be elided 02:03:22 -!- bohanlon_ [~bohanlon@pool-108-20-68-105.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:03:34 Quadrescence: seems simpler to MAP 02:03:42 <|3b|> so not technically nonconformant behavior, but possibly not what SBCL intends to happen there 02:03:55 do you think that it's an intentional elide, or an issue that could drop other error types? 02:04:03 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-246-237.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:19 it's intentional. 02:04:26 pkhuong: Find all positions of 4 in (1 2 3 4 4 4 9 2 4 4 1) 02:04:42 it should return (3 4 5 8 9) 02:04:48 how do you propose using map? 02:04:54 <|3b|> it also returns a type-error if you enter a non-number 02:05:26 pkhuong: how specific is that eliding decision? just for division errors in ignore-errors? for some class of error types? 02:06:04 We just want to make sure ignore-errors isn't eating some unexpectedly large class of errors 02:06:14 Phooodus: it's not related to ignore-errors. 02:06:24 stick a PROGN instead if you want. 02:06:41 *|3b|* got an error with progn 02:06:42 we want to capture (values result) or (values nil error), as ignore-errors does 02:06:43 Quadrescence: (map nil ...) will let you iterate over an arbitrary sequence. 02:06:58 |3b|: you have to compile, otherwise you get the trivial interpreter. 02:07:07 <|3b|> ah, that would explain it 02:07:25 Phooodus: stick a progn if you want [to make sure ignore-errors isn't eating anything up]. 02:07:40 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:07:41 so (ignore-errors (progn (/ ...))) ? 02:08:22 pkhuong: I can only see using MAP to mark off the elements that are equal but not to return a list of positions such that the element at those positions = VAL 02:08:24 no. Just (defun test () (/ 1 (read)) t). You'll see that only checks that you return a number. 02:08:27 <|3b|> Phooodus: ((lambda (a) (/ 1 a) t) 0) doesn't error either 02:08:56 pkhuong: we're concerned about capturing error objects 02:08:57 Quadrescence: right, you have to do that in the function. 02:08:59 and reporting them 02:09:03 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:09:06 <|3b|> Phooodus: there is no error object there 02:09:08 Phooodus: and I'm just telling you there is no error object to report here. 02:09:26 and that eliding is ONLY done for divide-by-zero? or how broad? 02:09:40 Phooodus: it's not related to ignore-errors at all. 02:09:47 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 02:09:54 Elided stuff is elided, nothing special about ignore-errors. 02:09:54 nothing bad about that code, except I'd not use 'position' there. 02:10:27 but it's only elided sometimes and only in that case that we've found 02:10:38 it's elided when the result isn't used. 02:11:02 but the result should been used by the (values nil ) of the ignore-errors handler 02:11:15 <|3b|> Phooodus: why, it didn't signal an error 02:11:15 should? 02:11:22 <|3b|> and it isn't required to 02:11:33 well, it does in (ignore-errors (/ 1 (read))) 02:11:44 the result of the division isn't ignored. 02:11:55 but the presence of the error is what we're trying to read 02:11:57 <|3b|> right, it is allowed to but not required to signal an error 02:12:01 reagrdless of return value 02:12:10 THERE. IS. NO. ERROR. 02:12:19 <|3b|> so if you don't use the results of the / anywhere, it doesn't signal an error 02:12:24 <|3b|> if you do use it, it does signal 02:12:36 <|3b|> the / gets optimized away if you don't use the results 02:12:46 ok, that's clearer 02:13:12 it sounded like just the raising of the error was elided, not the entire division operation 02:13:48 Phooodus: I told you countless times to try it in a PROGN instead of IGNORE-ERRORS so that you could observe that no error was raised. 02:14:27 yeah, I took that as adding progn to the ignore-errors clause 02:15:01 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-246-237.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:15:13 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 02:16:18 <|3b|> and it isn't quite 'the entire division operation' since it still leaves the check for arguments being numbers,but the calculation of the result is dropped, and checking for divide by 0 is optional so check can be dropped (assuming it is even a separate check and not relying on CPU checking) 02:17:06 <|3b|> optimizing out /required/ side effects, including errors, would be a bug 02:17:30 Quadrescence: annotated with the way I like to do it. 02:18:11 actually, what happens is that / is known to only take NUMBERs as arguments, so all the arguments are checked for NUMBERness. 02:18:27 all required contracts are met 02:18:28 the result of the division itself is dead, so the division is elided. 02:18:39 but the type checks are left in place. 02:18:58 yep, crystal clear now 02:19:02 pkhuong: That's sensible. Even though it's "uglier" (in some sense) than what mine is, mine is truly uglier with respect to flow 02:20:49 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:16 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ztvjmdbhqyxbizhp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:21:58 Tordek [~tordek@2001:470:dc50:b0::21] has joined #lisp 02:25:54 hey people 02:27:06 Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483D90A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:17 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-249-31.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:20 Quadrescence: non-loop terrible version: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121524 02:28:42 -!- Yuuhi`` [benni@p5483D5CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:29:07 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:29:25 (just trying to keep it all done with nested return values, for no good reason) 02:32:03 now *that* is truly terrible. 02:32:22 then I have succeeded! 02:32:28 :) 02:34:22 Salamander_ [~Salamande@121.45.153.22] has joined #lisp 02:36:19 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-89.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:23 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:48 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-249-31.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:37:44 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-154-17.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:37:45 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 02:39:50 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@121.45.153.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:42:21 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:48:17 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:50:23 good night people 02:50:31 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-249-24.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:52:26 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-132-81.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:48 Quant [~QuantB@ool-45765d5c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:01 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:02:11 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection refused] 03:02:11 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Connection refused] 03:02:55 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 03:03:06 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 03:06:43 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 03:11:44 rukubites [~user@211.30.65.14] has joined #lisp 03:13:31 Hi there. I am wondering if someone could recommend a solid IM client for lisp. I have been using cl-xmpp and it randomly disconnects every so often. I had a peek at the cl-xmpp devel archives and they look dead. 03:14:49 -!- Woshin [~Woshin@c-66-30-108-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:15:21 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:56 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:02 cl-irc ? 03:18:40 how do I setup coding system and stuff so that unicode works in slime? 03:19:04 I was thinking of cl-irc just now. 03:19:20 Since I am hosting the server it is an option. 03:19:51 xale: maybe http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/InstallingSlime will help you 03:20:00 *xale* looks. 03:20:26 Quicklisp worked well for me. 03:20:57 So cl-irc is robust? I believe minion is implemented using it. 03:21:49 yes! 03:21:53 rme: thank you. 03:22:18 rukubites-pidgin [~lhope@d211-30-65-14.meb9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:22:44 Okay, if I can pidgin to the channel, then cl-irc might work. 03:23:05 Why yes, sir. Maybe it will. 03:23:20 -!- rukubites-pidgin [~lhope@d211-30-65-14.meb9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 03:23:24 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:27:51 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:32:35 -!- rme [rme@clozure-ABAB5F25.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:32:35 -!- rme [~rme@70.104.125.229] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:34:38 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:35:42 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:37:00 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 03:38:32 -!- Quant [~QuantB@ool-45765d5c.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 03:39:03 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-145.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:39:03 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-129-224.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:07 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-132-81.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:41:12 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:43:11 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:44:15 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 03:45:43 -!- chupish [182e1463@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.46.20.99] has quit [] 03:46:43 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-129-224.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:46:59 TippenEin [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:11 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:47:11 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.197.173] has joined #lisp 03:47:57 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-5-211.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:48:28 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-117-89.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:48:28 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 03:59:00 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-246.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:59:09 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-68-26.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:13 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 04:03:36 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-146-207.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:39 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-246.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:04:13 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 04:04:39 Deathaholic [~Mococa@186.214.242.22] has joined #lisp 04:06:03 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-68-26.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:06:34 -!- Fare [~Fare@206.83.64.178.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:08:09 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:08:46 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-146-207.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:09:47 -!- Deathaholic [~Mococa@186.214.242.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:10:16 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 04:11:30 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.148.170.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:16:13 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:21:14 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-191-45.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:16 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 04:24:40 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 04:24:41 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:29:46 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-191-45.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:30:45 Harag [~Harag@196-210-168-162.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:31:50 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:05 enupten [~neptune@117.254.114.147] has joined #lisp 04:42:15 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-163-70.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:57 -!- Jake__ is now known as mekajfire 04:44:25 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 04:44:40 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has joined #lisp 04:45:40 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has left #lisp 04:48:40 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-163-70.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:50:29 http://pastebin.com/MdaPdKKb what does this mean? i've just installed the sbcl that comes with the new Ubuntu 04:50:36 running sbcl at the command line gives me this 04:52:45 is there a way to get colors in climacs ? 04:52:56 dto: set SBCL_HOME. 04:53:07 dto: there may be a compilation option to avoid having to do it. 04:53:22 dto: also revising LD_LIBRARY_PATH or ldconfig might help. 04:53:26 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:53:34 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:54:01 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 04:54:37 pjb: (setenv "SBCL_HOME" "/usr/lib/sbcl") i had that wrong in my .elisp. i removed the /local 04:55:06 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7CA44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:56:45 Xach: You were probably told this a thousand of times already but... 04:56:59 http://lh5.ggpht.com/luismbo/SNKf4XeRoVI/AAAAAAAAALA/8RqUG4D9H3E/s800/lisp-and-vim.png <- vim is not customised with C. 04:57:01 ok got it climacs-rv does it 04:57:15 Oh, and thanks for quicklisp too. ;) 04:58:23 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:58:45 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 04:58:49 quicklisp <3 04:59:55 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 05:00:58 naryl: too intelectual. I'd say wanting to use vim to do lisp programming is kind of like http://static3.channels.com/thumbnails/Redskin-Insane-sack-e12184003.jpg 05:01:16 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|jaculated 05:01:38 -!- ec|jaculated is now known as elliottcable 05:02:02 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-22-224.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:26 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:02:43 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:07:13 -!- bttf [~backtothe@c-69-246-160-131.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )] 05:07:21 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-59-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:07:53 sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:11:49 lol, you keep that jpg around just for instances like this? 05:12:07 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 05:12:23 TippenEin: it's worse than that: I have to google for it each time. Doesn't improve my reputation with google's computers. 05:12:35 HA! 05:13:01 your customized google ads recommend anal beads and whips? 05:13:31 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-22-224.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:13:37 and yards and yards of plastic wrap 05:13:38 Not yet. On the other hand, I had to buy Microsoft Windows 7 for Microsoft last month, and since then, I get ads for Microsoft Windows 7. 05:13:47 s/for/from/ 05:13:53 : / 05:14:00 I don't even see the ads any more. 05:15:41 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:15:56 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 05:16:29 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:15 pjb: Use tor and privoxy. At least cut targeted ads. 05:17:29 -!- ericbb [~user@blk-224-153-99.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:18:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-215-60.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:21:10 how can i customize climacs ? 05:21:25 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gwrcicbmarbpkosi] has joined #lisp 05:23:07 i recommend tor but not for those reasons 05:25:20 i run a relay so ppl with real privacy concerns can get through 05:26:02 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-93-110.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:10 Has anyone here used zeromq? 05:27:03 no.\ 05:27:09 is it similar to tor? 05:27:37 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:27:43 No not even close. It is a general messaging transport technology. 05:28:00 It looks like it could be useful for me, and so I am having a look at the lisp bindings. 05:28:13 TippenEin: I recommend Freenet to users with privacy concerns. Tor has few vulnerabilities but Freenet is a perfectly paranoid system. 05:28:28 Of course it's not an option if you need to access the Internet. 05:28:29 ya, i use freenet too 05:28:30 I have an application that runs partially on ABCL and partially on SBCL, and it might make for simpler communication between the two. 05:28:54 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:55 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-2-126.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:14 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-93-110.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:32:37 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-17-39.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:05 Why would you use TOR to cut targeted ads, rather than just using adblock or something. 05:34:31 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-2-126.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:38:53 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has 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#lisp 06:34:31 -!- Yuuhi``` [benni@p5483D90A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:36:13 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.203.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:37:01 cmm [~cmm@109.65.203.181] has joined #lisp 06:37:21 -!- Harag [~Harag@196-210-168-162.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 06:37:50 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:38:49 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:41:34 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:42:06 good morning 06:43:03 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-125-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:43:07 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:43:11 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-125-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:51 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 06:44:17 -!- Ralith 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[~Salamande@ppp121-45-150-114.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:51 carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.4] has joined #lisp 07:23:52 -!- Ralith [~ralith@173-10-121-193-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:26:07 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-144-105.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:26:51 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:27:57 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 07:31:17 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:33:14 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Quit: ._.] 07:33:49 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-16-38.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:12 aerique [310225@194.109.21.4] has joined #lisp 07:35:04 Ralith [~ralith@173-10-121-193-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:16 -!- xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:36:09 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:39:00 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:39:43 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:39:53 -!- Ralith [~ralith@173-10-121-193-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:40:02 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:51 For all vim users out there: the first slimv version with swank support is released, at http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531 07:43:18 Tutorial at http://kovisoft.bitbucket.org/tutorial.html 07:44:22 Ralith [~ralith@173-10-121-193-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:39 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:58 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-80-111.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:48:25 -!- Ralith [~ralith@173-10-121-193-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:48:41 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:49:59 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-88-120.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:50:45 Ralith [~ralith@173-10-121-193-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:00 SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has joined #lisp 07:54:49 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.203.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:55:42 cmm [~cmm@109.65.203.181] has joined #lisp 07:56:07 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:57:32 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 08:01:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1] 08:01:46 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:02:47 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-146-32.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:39 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-150-114.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:09:37 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:11:36 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/] 08:12:31 is it a bad idea to produce elaborate multi-line formatting in print-object? 08:13:43 yes 08:13:53 specialize on describe-object instead 08:16:11 xale: if you use the correct format statements and use the pretty-printer, you get line breaks, shortening, circular printing etc. for free 08:17:09 XP. A Common Lisp Pretty Printing System: http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6503 08:20:25 -!- drm [~drm@cpc2-cmbg14-2-0-cust310.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:21:00 dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:21:11 -!- JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:21:55 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:24:58 robonobo [~user@109.130.56.73] has joined #lisp 08:29:14 hi 08:29:22 is this the right place to ask something about slime? 08:31:01 well, yes and no 08:31:09 try #emacs too maybe 08:31:32 ok, I'll start here then 08:31:43 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:32:39 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:33:42 I started out in lisp-like languages with clojure, and set slime/swank to work up with that, but now, when I setq the inferior-lisp-program to my clisp excutable and go M-x slime, it complains about not having clojure installed. 08:34:07 I think you might have installed a clojure specific slime fork 08:35:53 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 08:37:30 tcr1: that might just be it 08:38:03 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:09 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:06 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:40:28 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:41:30 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:41:57 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:43:11 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f899.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:57 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 08:45:04 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 08:45:39 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:46:02 re. elaborate printing, i don't actually agree. just make sure you have something along the lines of (if *print-escape* (print-unreadable-object ...) (the-elaborate-multiline-thing ...)) and you should be fine 08:46:18 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:47:15 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-194-209-80.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 08:48:50 It depends on what he wants to print. He can also use pretty printing newlines. 08:49:13 If it's an elaborate description of an object, there's DESCRIBE. 08:49:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:52:07 sure, but as long as print-object respects *print-escape* there's no need to avoid using it 08:52:25 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:52:28 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:54:22 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:55:15 what except conditions actually differentiate that? 08:55:25 in a meaningful way 09:02:58 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:05:10 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-246.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:06:31 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 09:08:48 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:14:29 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-146-32.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:16:23 urandom__ [~user@p548A2F97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:18 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-237-214.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:18 -!- Cin [~Cin@pdpc/supporter/student/zhuangzi] has left #lisp 09:21:29 alama [~alama@193.137.143.174] has joined #lisp 09:22:56 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-246.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:30:07 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-144-213.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:30:15 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:38:45 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:40:36 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-xysetagvpyxbwbga] has joined #lisp 09:42:50 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:44:02 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:44:27 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:45:28 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:47:50 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:32 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-16-38.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:52:55 -!- Decamero78 [~Matthias@cs109108026076.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:53:19 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-16-38.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:57:33 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 10:01:13 jmbr [~jmbr@mapc033.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 10:03:53 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 10:06:08 tfb [~tfb@92.40.211.217.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:08:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-215-60.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:10:04 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has joined #lisp 10:10:41 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@mapc033.mat.ucm.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:11:14 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.211.217.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 10:11:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-65.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:13:05 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:14:28 tfb [~tfb@92.40.211.217.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:15:58 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:17:06 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:17:28 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f899.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:51 wth, how do lisp people go on fixing bugs ? 10:23:56 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:24:41 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25:12 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-ahtksadtroskkcmk] has joined #lisp 10:26:03 galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:27 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:36:48 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 10:38:18 naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.nbiserv.com] has joined #lisp 10:40:55 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:43:16 with a repl 10:43:22 or better, with a scratchpad in slime 10:43:53 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has left #lisp 10:44:02 well, yes yes ok but how do they now where the failure lies in ? 10:44:27 do they have to know every bit'n piece of code and history of it to know ? 10:44:47 How I normally do it is copy the function definition to a scratchpad, set the arguments manually, and execute by parts until incorrect behaviour is found. 10:44:54 I then dig as deep as I need to. 10:45:08 We also have M-. and M-, to navigate call trees in SLIME 10:46:11 So the debugger has a list of function calls, I can inspect the values entered into the functions and the return values. I can then do M-. to see the function definition/implementation and hopefully fix the bug. 10:46:22 Anyway, glhf. ^^ 10:46:27 -!- rukubites [~user@211.30.65.14] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:46:35 i use a combination of trace, break and looking at backtrace & local variables 10:46:41 oldskool 10:47:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:48:24 well i use less slime too, cause of frequent updates to emacs, sbcl, slime etc... i think i would have to use a stable old release first if i was gonna really hunt for bugs not ? 10:49:13 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:49:44 i have just used once slime i think, and pressing entter on the failure would open the line in the source code directly 10:49:59 throwing assertions in is always a good idea regardless of programming language used 10:51:51 well, in maxima there's another debugger, which is doing nothing on backtraces ... 10:52:03 i think without setting breakpoint or so 10:52:45 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-58-40.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:47 homie: there is no such thing as a stable release for slime. for sbcl you can use the monthly releases, but cvs HEAD isn't significantly more unstable -- though of course sometimes regressions happen, but there is no 100% guarantee that a regression won't slip into a release either 10:52:53 damn my crappy connection. 10:53:22 slash_ [~unknown@pD955DEF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:34 oh ok then, thank you 10:53:51 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:54:09 but you _really_ should be using slime. no idea if you can sanely use it with maxima, though 10:54:34 well, maxima runs fine within emacs, so i think that should be possible 10:54:46 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-237-214.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:55:59 is there any source on how the sbcl source tree is set up ? 10:56:09 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56:17 i mean what goes where and which files do what part etc... ? 10:58:15 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 10:58:32 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.22] has joined #lisp 10:58:43 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:00:37 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 11:01:38 homie: can you be more specific? src/code has most of the "common lisp library" src/runtime has the C runtime (GC, interrupt handling, etc), src/compiler has the compiler, src/pcl has the CLOS 11:02:04 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 11:02:58 (there's over 800 source files, so listing "which files do what part" is a pretty tall order) 11:03:48 well someone should just make a sketch, not so fine grained maybe as you think, but some of it would be ok 11:04:06 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.33.152.39] has joined #lisp 11:04:20 feel free to make such 11:04:51 so what's the part most of the problems are located in then is it the library part ? 11:04:52 the thing is: if you're looking for something specific, it's pretty easy to tell where it is once you understand how the build works 11:04:56 or where it is to be expected 11:05:03 which part do change more ? 11:05:10 parts 11:05:30 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.242.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:05:43 silenius [~silenus@p4FC23AA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:22 but the organization is by no means "ideal", so documenting in more detail is something that would take continual updating, doesn't really benefit people working on sbcl -- and doesn't really help new people getting to grips with it either. source tree organization is largely a bunch of unimportant details, unless you're looking for a *really* high-level overview 11:07:49 homie: there's no specific part that's more or less problematic 11:07:59 -!- galumph [~ron@bzq-84-108-249-117.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:08:42 hmmmm ok that explains it then 11:08:52 explains what? 11:09:10 well that lack of documentation on such things 11:09:17 ah, ok 11:10:09 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:10:44 though if you're curious http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net has some stuff. it's not very actively updated, though 11:12:57 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:14:02 normally you hit 'v' in sldb and it takes you to the source. 11:15:57 Woshin [~Woshin@c-66-30-108-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:02 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-15-247.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:19:47 Joreji [~thomas@73-185.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:20:51 oh nice 11:21:02 i have a property list and i can't get rid of it 11:21:11 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 11:23:28 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:25:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-185.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:26:19 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-170924.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:26:31 Jake_ [~Jake@71-89-15-161.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:26:50 -!- alama [~alama@193.137.143.174] has quit [Quit: alama] 11:29:01 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955DEF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:29:53 -!- mekajfire [~Jake@71-89-15-161.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:01 Joreji [~thomas@82-047.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:30:41 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:33:11 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:33:15 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:34:35 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 11:34:45 -!- Woshin [~Woshin@c-66-30-108-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:35:48 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 11:36:23 Landr: on a symbol? if so (setf symbol-plist) is probably what you want 11:38:15 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 11:41:50 NamelessTee [~Ben@AReims-552-1-92-185.w92-147.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:43:29 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 11:43:30 tfb: of course! d'oh :< 11:43:49 i keep getting mixed up between whether I'm changing values or changing references 11:44:27 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:57 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:47:48 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:18 Is there an s-exp syntax frontend for the Google Go? 11:51:36 dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:51:36 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:52:15 dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:59 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f899.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:49 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:55:37 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:56:29 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:56:42 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 11:56:42 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 11:56:42 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:58:59 For all vim users out there: the first slimv version with swank support is released, at http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531, tutorial at http://kovisoft.bitbucket.org/tutorial.html 12:00:28 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 12:00:55 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:05:50 flip214: thanks! 12:05:55 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@82.143.220.223] has joined #lisp 12:06:25 Don't thank me ... Tell Tamás that you "like it" ;-/ 12:07:42 flip214: No, thank you for the news. I somehow though slimv is a useless project abandoned a few years ago. Turns out it is not abandoned and not useless. ;) 12:08:55 No, neither nor. I especially like the parameter hint when typing a function name - I regularly forget the order in find, map, etc. 12:09:25 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:09:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:10:23 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:29 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:12:41 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:13:20 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 12:15:41 hello hlavaty :) 12:19:03 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has left #lisp 12:19:06 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 12:20:27 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-064-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:06 jmbr [~jmbr@64.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:22:05 fe[nl]ix: hi 12:22:09 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:22:13 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-vkunyuwpbxhtytnb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:23:02 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:23:08 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-011-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:09 fe[nl]ix: I looked at iolib and noticed, that the documentation still says 0.6.0, although the checkout says 0.7.2.99 12:23:28 flip214: nothing has changed there 12:23:41 So it's still valid? good to know. 12:23:57 yes 12:24:06 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-064-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:04 I saw that it has :bordeaux-threads in the .asd, but the only references I found were in the examples. The main code, including multiplexer, works fine with multiple threads, right? 12:26:44 I'm thinking about doing green-threads on a fixed number of pthreads, so I might get back with more questions later. 12:27:20 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:27:46 flip214: no, the muxer is designed to be single-threaded 12:28:08 currently, yes ... 12:28:40 then I don't understand your question 12:29:20 of course I'll have to add some locking in the multiplexer, so that multiple pthreads can work concurrently. 12:30:02 fe[nl]ix: ah you are the author of iolib! i'll be doing some work on it over the next few months. Good to know ;-) 12:31:00 The model of what I'm trying to build on CL is http://oss.linbit.com/libtcr/. Of course, the coroutine part is easier in CL. 12:31:11 lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:31:41 hlavaty: that's why I said hello 12:32:07 hlavaty: lichtblau said that a coworker wanted to do the porting to windows but I didn't know it was you until this morning :) 12:32:10 fe[nl]ix: i guess lichtblau told you then 12:32:28 :-D 12:32:44 yeah windows, will be fun 12:33:16 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:33:24 flip214: ah, the drbd guys 12:34:12 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:21 -!- The_Fellow [~storm2@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:37:45 rtoym: How's the Matlisp going? I might finally have some time this weekend to look on to how to do the multidimensional iterators or other smaller improvements. 12:37:57 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 12:38:53 (cdr nil) 12:39:26 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:34 udzinari: ? 12:39:46 *udzinari* needs more redbull, wrong buffer :/ 12:42:47 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-15-247.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:43:08 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-011-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:46:33 -!- naeg [~naeg@170-18-182-46.nbiserv.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 12:46:42 Hmmm, Matlisp has GPL2 license. Will that be a problem, if I want to write a program that utilizes Matlisp for calculations, but has BSD/MIT license or is closed source? Should the license of the matrix library be LGPL to be compatible with such usage? 12:48:41 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host131-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:48:48 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:49:32 Or does the GPL2 require that the program using it as a library must also have a GPL license? 12:49:48 Depends on the linkage. 12:49:49 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:49:58 ericbb [~user@blk-224-153-99.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 12:50:02 algorist [~quassel@host96-211-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:50:12 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-185.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:17 Oh, sorry. I misread that. 12:50:32 -!- algorist_ [~quassel@host131-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:50:44 Where goes the line? Should the library work as a compiled software to not require GPL license? 12:51:27 -!- NamelessTee [~Ben@AReims-552-1-92-185.w92-147.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:52:03 peterhil: there is lisp version of LGPL, because even plain LGPL does not suit lisp code well. as for GPL.. it's a mess 12:52:17 unithrick [~mathrick@emp.nat.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 12:52:28 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 12:52:37 Posterdati [~tapioca@host96-211-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:53:04 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-170-145.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:53:08 *udzinari* does not like hypocrisy of GPL 12:53:14 udzinari: Of, yes I forgot LPGL is not the LLGPL with the Lisp preamble. 12:53:40 What hypocrisy? 12:53:41 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-16-38.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:54:20 Zhivago: their notion of freedom 12:54:33 What is hypocritical about that? 12:54:55 it's false? 12:54:55 I would rather call it strict philosophy for software code being free and staying free. 12:54:56 *rtoym* thought matlisp has a bsd license, not gpl. 12:55:02 What is false about it? 12:55:22 Also, being 'false' doesn't qualify for 'hypocrisy'. 12:55:48 rtoym: Oh, true. There is however a copy of GPL2 license for some reason on the git repository. 12:55:51 Or is this just you being hypocritical and not wanting to come out and say that you just don't like it? 12:56:13 -!- ericbb [~user@blk-224-153-99.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:56:16 -!- algorist [~quassel@host96-211-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:56:24 peterhil: Ah, probably autoadded when I converted matlisp to use autotools. That needs to be changed. 12:56:33 billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-58-157.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:33 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-69-195-58-157.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:56:33 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:56:37 well, when they preach it like a holly word and the face of free software, it does. and no it's not only me, thankfully there are lot of other, truly free licenses 12:57:03 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:57:16 udz: What makes the GPL not a 'truly free license'? 12:57:28 udz: Please provide critical reasoning. 12:57:54 peterhil: Where do you see the gpl2 license? I don't see it. 12:58:15 dlowe1 [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:16 peterhil: I also haven't done anything with matlisp since we last spoke about it. 12:58:27 algorist [~quassel@host12-35-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:58:41 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host96-211-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:00:20 freedom - Unrestricted use of something versus GPL - free to do some stuff, but not unrestricted. 13:00:45 udz: Wrong. 13:01:11 udz: Freedom of speech does not imply unrestricted use. Freedom of movement does not imply that you can walk to the moon. 13:01:15 udz: Try again. 13:01:33 can and am allowed to are different things 13:02:04 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 13:02:13 udz: So do you not have free speech if you're not allowed to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre? 13:02:41 udz: In any case, what you've failed to grasp is to whom the freedom applies in the case of the GPL. 13:02:43 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:02:55 udz: The GPL is protecting the _software's_ freedom. 13:03:05 udz: Preventing it from being locked up. 13:03:07 rtoym: There is gpl.txt on the root directory on the source fetched from git repo 13:03:25 software wants to be anthropomorphized. 13:03:29 The_Fellow [~storm2@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:17 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:04:43 Zhivago: "I prefer liberty with danger to peace with slavery" 13:04:47 Zhivago what is wrong with someone taking free software and making an nice closed source version out of it? is someone forced to buy it? 13:05:13 And COPYING and COPYRIGHT mentions of course that Matlisp is BSD licensed, now that I looked better... 13:05:15 NamelessTee [~Ben@AReims-552-1-140-191.w92-131.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:05:43 urandom: Ask RMS. 13:05:51 There's nothing *wrong* with it (unless you're Stallman). You may just not want it to happen. 13:05:59 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:06:04 urandom: That's a value judgement. I am concerned with hypocrisy here. 13:06:18 udz: You are gibbering. Please provide critical reasoning. 13:06:36 msmith1 [~msmit297@adsl-190-140-90.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:40 Zhivago: and let me clarify, I do *ghasp* and respect the GPL, but I am free not to adopt it and try not to use projects which use it, which I do. 13:06:55 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 13:07:25 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:07:31 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Quit: ._.] 13:08:05 dlowe1 why might some not want it to happen? would be awesome if someone would manage to make money with my code 13:08:34 udz: So, where is the hypocrisy? 13:08:58 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 13:09:27 Zhivago: again, in advocating the false freedom :) 13:09:37 udz: What is false about it? 13:09:43 GPL makes with mistake of respecting intellectual property at all, its just bullshit, ideas belong to the people 13:10:04 urandom: Property is a legal construct in all of its forms. 13:10:33 urandom: Your house belongs to the state. 13:11:34 Zhivago: I explained my humble opinnion as clearly as I could, I see no point in repetition. especially when confronted with somewhat religious stance. 13:11:54 urandom: The law just allows you to wield part of the power of the state to maintain certain kinds of exclusive access. 13:12:02 udz: You are a hypocrit. 13:12:04 ericbb [~user@blk-224-153-99.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 13:12:08 Posterdati [~tapioca@host12-35-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:13:01 a legal construct that wasnt designed for the 21st century (and maybe not even well suited for the 20th) 13:13:05 urandom: The same applies to everything else -- ideas and software and kittens and butterflies included. 13:13:06 udzinari: do you understand what 'hypocrisy' means? 13:13:52 urandom: Well, laws can be changed. The point is that there's nothing intrinsically difference between the idea of your house as property and the idea of painting your buttocks blue as property. 13:14:02 er, different. 13:14:14 zfx: the practice of professing standards, beliefs, etc, contrary to one's real character or actual behaviour, esp the pretence of virtue and piety - which I do not posses, and GPL does 13:15:14 so what actual behaviour/character does the GPL have? 13:15:27 I thought it was just a legal document. 13:15:40 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 13:15:59 Actually, what hypocrisy involves is a lack of critical integrity. 13:16:03 Zhivago there is a difference, owning a house means owning the specific object, ownership on the idea of painting all houses blue means you own rights on all houses that are painted blue 13:16:49 urandom: No. There is no difference. In both cases it is just set of conditions that allow you to wield part of the coercive power of the state in order to maintain exclusive rights. 13:17:15 urandom: I can have men with guns stop you if you try to come into my house. I can have men with guns stop you if you try to paint your buttocks blue. 13:17:21 zfx: which is advertised as the ultimate 'Free' license. but it fails to provide this freedom by restricting the software from being used in certain ways. it only defends the freedoms it deems worthy, which by definition is not what 'Freedom' means 13:17:23 urandom: That's all it boils down to. 13:17:52 Philosophically GPL has the property of promoting a free software ecosystem, that can't be utilised by IP rights and the concept of buying or selling the right to the software. 13:18:03 udzinari: where does it advertise itself as the ultimate free licence? 13:18:16 Philosophically, the GPL is concerned with software remaining freely available. 13:18:27 There's nothing hypocritical about that -- it just isn't what you want. 13:18:31 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:18:31 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 13:18:31 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:18:33 It's time to be honest about that. 13:18:54 zfx: please read again. it is advertised *by*. 13:19:36 where is this advertisement? 13:19:44 cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has joined #lisp 13:20:20 -!- billitch [~billitch@88.183.197.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:21:11 zfx: everywhere where fsf or rms are or have influence, ever heared of internet? 13:21:29 you are a very silly person. 13:21:47 in what particular way 13:22:18 in that you are not forming a reasonable argument. 13:22:57 http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html 13:23:37 well, you should not expect me to provide google assistance to you about all the gpl versus everything else flamewars and the stuff alike. *that* is silly 13:23:44 FSF and RMS probably have influence here. show me where it advertises the ultimate free licence, and show me the authority that has a monopoly on what 'freedom' means in software. 13:24:14 I suspect that you can't, so I will go back to work. :) 13:24:29 zfx: please do 13:24:52 udz: You really shoult stop being a hypocrite. 13:24:57 -!- vert2 [~vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-esplnisqooqjvotp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:25:19 *cough* ahem. Lisp? 13:25:41 -!- ericbb [~user@blk-224-153-99.eastlink.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:47 And I think it's a good thing that there is much GPL licensed software. But personally I prefer not to use GPL on most of my own hobby projects. Mostly because of the slight hope of one of them providing some income one day. I have one or two ideas though, that I will definitely make GPL licensed for the reason of keeping them freely available, gaining momentum and out of reach of big corporations. These projects have kind of politi 13:26:47 cal motives... Visualising important stuff about consumption and resources. And providing information about prices of commodities. 13:28:41 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:28:49 Zhivago: I disagree, but see no point in continuing. while I understand the stance GPL has and your arguments, I do not agree with them. you on the other hand fail to respect my stance and insult me. but it is ok. I might not agree to what you say, but I will fight to defend your freedom to say it. dlowe1: my bad, shouldn't have started at all. 13:29:03 udz: You think that you should not stop being a hypocrite? 13:29:25 *peterhil* didn't mean to start a debate about licences. 13:29:50 Zhivago: I think I should stop arguing when somebody has no other arguments but insults. have a nice day 13:31:07 udz: I think you should stop being a hypocrite. Have a nice day. 13:32:27 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:34:40 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-hgozpreyengayhoy] has joined #lisp 13:37:21 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:38:33 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 13:42:42 peterhil: Thanks. I'll remove that file. 13:43:05 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-87-52-181.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:41 statonjr [~statonjr@71.75.85.85] has joined #lisp 13:51:28 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 13:52:19 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:26 -!- SidH_ [~SidH_@203.101.61.10] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224]] 13:57:49 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.0.88] has joined #lisp 13:59:11 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:59:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@82.143.220.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:59:49 muhdik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:37 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.6.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:06:26 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-xysetagvpyxbwbga] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:07:58 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:09:01 -!- symbole` [~user@50-56-91-243.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:23 symbole [~user@50-56-91-243.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 14:09:28 galumph [~ron@84.108.249.117] has joined #lisp 14:11:52 -!- dlowe1 [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 14:17:35 dlow dlow yaylalar 14:19:10 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.153] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:20:34 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gwrcicbmarbpkosi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:23:18 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:23:23 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:24:12 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:25:41 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:08 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-185.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:30:32 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 14:31:51 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:18 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:35:31 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-185.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:37 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:42:45 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:46:24 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:46:55 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 14:50:18 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC23AA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:40 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 14:51:29 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-ahtksadtroskkcmk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:43 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 14:51:48 erg [~erg@li32-38.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:26 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 14:59:20 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:59:44 -!- aerique [310225@194.109.21.4] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:02:24 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:06:04 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 15:09:44 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-125-229.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:56 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 15:14:01 -!- robonobo [~user@109.130.56.73] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:15:50 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:16:32 ikki [~ikki@189.247.130.229] has joined #lisp 15:17:10 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f899.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 15:18:37 ericklc [~ikki@189.247.126.221] has joined #lisp 15:21:13 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:21:44 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:22:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.130.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:22:49 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:11 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.77] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:23:30 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:24:50 -!- muhdik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:36 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:25 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:32:22 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 15:33:38 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA285D9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:34:09 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:35:33 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@boccacio.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:36:22 why is there no completion in climacs ? 15:37:28 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756573.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:43 pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:40 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:05 billitch [~billitch@78.250.211.86] has joined #lisp 15:40:12 -!- galumph [~ron@84.108.249.117] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:40:31 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 15:40:35 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 15:40:57 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:42:06 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:43 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@64.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:44:40 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.211.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:44:42 jmbr [~jmbr@64.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:45:56 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.33.152.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:49:47 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:14 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-102-125.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:53:31 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.254] has joined #lisp 15:53:53 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:55:53 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki 16:04:19 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-29-226.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:06:35 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:46 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:56 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:07:43 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:08:03 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:08:36 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:46 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:34 udzinari` [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 16:16:10 wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has joined #lisp 16:16:46 -!- wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:17:22 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.211.217.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 16:17:51 wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has joined #lisp 16:19:41 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:53 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:16 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:20:31 -!- wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:21:30 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082A156.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:34 wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has joined #lisp 16:22:38 -!- daniel__3 [~daniel@p5B326031.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:22:46 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:36 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 16:25:50 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@12.49.178.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:26:45 -!- wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:27:37 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:28:17 wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has joined #lisp 16:29:31 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:30:43 -!- wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:31:53 wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has joined #lisp 16:32:06 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.197.173] has joined #lisp 16:32:33 pnq [~nick@ACA25619.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:44 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.172.242] has joined #lisp 16:33:52 hi 16:34:19 binary_crayon [~binary_cr@173.243.47.194] has joined #lisp 16:34:27 if i manipulate function as data I must add #' to its prefix ? 16:35:01 -!- wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:35:05 else what kind of data it will recognize my code ? 16:36:13 unbound variable error ? 16:36:54 (mapcar #'1+ '(1 2 3) vs (mapcar (1+) '(1 2 3)) ? 16:37:01 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:37:23 (why the 2nd can work w/ scheme but not lisp ? ) 16:37:42 it can work in common lisp 16:37:55 the 2nd ? 16:38:07 wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has joined #lisp 16:38:15 no , it doesn't =.= 16:39:05 i mean, it can't work in common lisp, i dont know about other lisp languages 16:39:36 Gmind: MAPCAR's first argument must evaluate to a function designator. 16:39:50 -!- binary_crayon [~binary_cr@173.243.47.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:51 Gmind: any form that returns a function object or symbol naming a global function would do. 16:40:11 #'1+ is shorthand for (FUNCTION 1+), which returns the function associated with the symbol 1+ in the current lexical environment. 16:40:16 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:58 so indeed it's (mapcar (function 1+) '( 1 2 3)) ? 16:41:03 If you wrote a function called ONE+ like (defun one+ () #'1+), you could do (mapcar (one+) ...). 16:41:16 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:41:28 -!- wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:41:49 -!- udzinari` [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:42:01 you can read about difference between common lisp and scheme regarding single/multiple symbol namspaces, and choose what you like more 16:42:01 Bronsa [~brace@host192-117-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:42:07 :P thank Xach 16:42:23 Vutral [ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:29 mhm 16:42:30 (1+) by itself does not evaluate to a function designator - it's an error. 16:42:34 wowdd1 [~zd@183.15.135.147] has joined #lisp 16:42:59 milanj, ya =.= , I used to Scheme for a while and now make a jump to CL 16:43:22 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:43:38 plenty of flame wars about this issue, don't fall in that trap 16:43:43 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-102-125.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has left #lisp 16:43:45 *Xach* wonders how to find Magnus "cl-sasl" Henoch 16:43:47 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-102-125.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:44:05 anyone knows if it is difficult to get a lisp machine which can work on multiple virtual terminals parallel and runs on a save/restore core 16:44:08 milanj, u mean debate ? 16:44:17 -!- Ralith [~ralith@173-10-121-193-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:44:33 Ralith [~ralith@173.10.121.193] has joined #lisp 16:44:46 I think each have its adv, up to its user style , so it's fine 4 me 16:45:14 well, i dont know if we can call it debate since it's matter of style and preference 16:45:38 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA25619.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:46:07 maybe i should try ecl 16:46:26 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:18 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-219-24.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:23 mhm 16:48:26 It's best to compare languages by seeing how tersely you can write the Y combinator or fibonacci sequence generator. 16:48:41 Since you are likely to do those things thousands if not millions of times in your life. 16:48:42 i wonder why it is so complicated to work with most lisp implementations 16:48:48 .... hahahahaha 16:49:08 well i dont think so 16:49:27 usually you dump a lispcore once a day on a stick ^^ 16:49:35 and carry it with you 16:49:37 Xach: thanks for th esecond line, I wasn't sure if the first one was dripping with nough weapons-grade sarcasm to penetrate 16:50:01 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:13 .. I need to replace the keyboard :/ 16:50:30 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:50:46 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:51:37 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@188-195-186-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:54:23 Vutral: as for what you wanted, it would make more sense to keep a virtual machine with linux on it,and just suspend it when you move between machines 16:54:44 yeah well 16:54:55 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:55:13 but i like the idea to have a lisp machine as app which works like the old hw lis machines 16:55:24 hrhr 16:55:26 joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has joined #lisp 16:55:30 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:55:36 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:55:42 emacs was funny when i made it save state 16:55:54 it kept getting smarter each day 16:56:06 like if it were reading thoughts 16:56:31 paul0 [~user@187.112.64.196] has joined #lisp 16:56:41 Vutral: I'm not sure if it would be as satisfying as the myths make it 16:56:46 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:56:57 the main good point of LispM sems to have been transparence to developer 16:56:58 well 16:57:05 dumping image... not really 16:57:06 i'd need some access control 16:57:30 i used cmucl well i think it dumps core 16:57:39 so you continue always where you stopped 16:58:40 Vutral: yes, but Common Lisp by itself,and practically all implementations I know, lack facilities for image-only developement 16:58:43 As long as you don't interact with the outside world, that works fine. 16:58:49 hrhr 16:58:53 yeah well 16:59:06 ... strangely enough, .NET has facilities enabling it in core since 1.0 16:59:08 thats the point 16:59:15 i want it to interact with the outside world 16:59:31 and most fulll common lisp implementations are quite limited 16:59:37 in that functionality 16:59:39 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host192-117-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:00:04 Bronsa [~brace@host192-117-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:00:15 i can save the state in lisp code anyway 17:00:54 muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:10 well 17:05:20 i will try netting some lisp instances 17:05:46 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:07:11 mhm a nice thing would probably be if i just implement some access control and limit the commands then :/ 17:07:11 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:44 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:19 well, I did some planning and research into an implementation that would support such behaviour, but it's really a loong way before it becoms useful (or even has anything sensible to show, as right now the little time I can spend on it is partially filled with figuring out the best way to start) 17:08:49 HG` [~HG@p5DC053E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:16 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 17:11:31 p_l|backup, well we could work on it together 17:11:47 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f899.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:01 i want to get rid of writing code which creates wrappercode 17:12:50 well, right now I don't even have much time to spare for actual, heavy lifting on it 17:12:51 you could implement it as a form of selfsupervision support 17:13:09 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:21 well you dont have to make it multithreaded ^^ 17:13:48 handling multiple connections on blank repl loops would be sufficient 17:13:56 Vutral: you need to go deeper. write code that writes the code that writes the wrappercode. 17:14:11 Xach, i do metaprogramming all day 17:14:25 but i always get stuck when i have to integrate it with foreign code 17:14:50 hrhr 17:14:56 well for your idea btw 17:15:14 i would have to implement extensive reflection somewhere 17:15:16 Vutral: It will be possible to make it run single-threaded, but full build will always be multithreaded, partially because of deficiencies of system I/O apis 17:15:35 Xach: =)) you remind me of inception 17:15:59 "I must go deeper" => 15 mins later ..... => %&^*()$#%^ 17:16:01 i saw lisp implementations where it would be easy to create local namespaces 17:16:32 so on attaching it could call lisp code which bootstraps a supervision 17:16:36 in the machine well 17:16:55 you had one lisp instance then and the possibility to attach multiple clients 17:17:16 human or code well 17:17:23 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.172.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:17:47 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:14 i guess it was a full selfcontained implementation or so then 17:18:16 maybe 17:18:35 cheezus [~Adium@76-10-136-155.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:53 Adlai [~Adlai@89-139-27-12.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:18:59 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@89-139-27-12.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:12 Adlai [~Adlai@89-139-27-12.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:19:20 creating local namespaces is one way well :/ 17:19:22 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@89-139-27-12.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:37 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:19:48 well there are other possiblities 17:20:15 with non intersecting predicate vocabulary 17:21:01 mephisto [~mephisto@bas1-toronto07-1176322621.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:22:22 if you see it as a simplified state machine which handles each port 17:23:03 you just would need to add support for saving these abstract in the machines memory +g+ 17:23:05 memory time 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now known as sdi3k 18:34:53 -!- sdi3k is now known as sid3k 18:36:17 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:05 -!- fsrt [~m@talula.plus.com] has quit [Quit: fsrt] 18:42:10 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:43:56 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 18:47:57 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:48:19 NamelessTee [~Ben@AReims-552-1-63-135.w92-147.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:48:51 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:49:02 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:55:50 mippymoe [~mathguru1@67.194.35.136] has joined #lisp 18:57:24 fortitudeZDY [~fortitude@210.192.101.125] has joined #lisp 18:57:41 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.254] has joined #lisp 18:57:53 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:58:07 *Xach* wonders what happened to unmutual.info 18:59:57 Phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has joined #lisp 19:01:07 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 19:01:49 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.197.173] has joined #lisp 19:05:07 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.197.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:05:07 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 19:05:09 leo2007 [~leo@th041069.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has joined #lisp 19:05:52 -!- joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:06:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.126.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:10:08 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 19:10:12 silenius [~silenus@p4FC23AA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:36 -!- fortitudeZDY [~fortitude@210.192.101.125] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:12:20 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:07 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@67.194.35.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:13:57 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:14:32 *stassats* reads the "Lisp Curse" essay 19:14:48 Don't! You'll be cursed! 19:14:54 can't say that i agree with the gist of it 19:15:16 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:16:30 http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html  this one? 19:16:37 yes 19:19:32 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:19:35 it talks about lone wolfs crafting half-assed code, but i've seen many projects which include several developers, and i've seen projects done by a single person of exceptional qualities 19:19:46 I think I do agree, but not because lisp is so powerful, but because it takes people resistant to social pressures to put effort into learning something unusual 19:19:59 people resistant to social pressures tend to be loners 19:20:04 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.249.105] has joined #lisp 19:21:35 dlowe: or trendsetters, see some of those strange fashion designers 19:23:17 and i don't think people using other programming languages don't create programs in their free time which only do what they need and don't document them 19:24:03 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:24:30 rootzlevel [~hpd@188-195-186-112-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:43 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442098.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:24:52 stassats: perl 19:25:08 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:26:17 -!- kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:27:46 and who is this "Rudolf Winestock", is he famous for something? 19:28:16 Odin-: perl is self-documenting 19:28:33 Phooodus: and it reads "DO NOT TOUCH" 19:28:44 19:29:11 bgs100 [~ian@h131.116.187.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:14 -!- bgs100 [~ian@h131.116.187.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:29:15 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:30:06 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442113.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:31:20 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:31:20 -!- salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:32:41 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 19:44:05 salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:19 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.254] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:45:35 -!- HG`` [~HG@p5DC050EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:46:11 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3397.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:00 hi 19:47:06 hi 19:48:27 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:50:53 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:56:13 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 19:57:16 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-7.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:57:28 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC23AA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:43 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-30-157.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 20:00:20 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:02:06 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:53 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:02 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-16-38.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:18 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f899.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:51 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:08:13 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 20:09:09 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f899.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:27 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:09:42 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f899.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:52 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:10:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@82-047.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:20 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f899.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14:07 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 20:14:23 -!- bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:57 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-064-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:16 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:23:43 -!- xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:29:55 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:31:18 -!- antgreen [~user@12.232.236.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:35:30 -!- benny [~benny@87.122.112.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:37:11 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:04 stassats: Around? 20:38:43 Joreji [~thomas@66-232.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:39:08 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.249.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:37 rtoym: yes 20:40:37 I found another possible issue with slime and xemacs. M-n (slime-next-note) seems to leave the cursor at the wrong place. 20:41:21 I expect the cursor to be at the note that is being displayed, but the cursor is actually at the next note for some reason. 20:41:25 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:44:10 Possibly related to slime-show-note because if I wrap a save-excursion around the call to slime-show-note in slime-next-note, the cursor is placed at the location I expect. 20:45:19 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.249.105] has joined #lisp 20:45:50 benny [~benny@i577A82B6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:47:00 i don't have xemacs on this machine to test, but from looking at the code, i don't see why that could happen 20:47:30 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756573.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:51 is xemacs still maintained? 20:47:55 I don't understand it either. I'll try to get to the bottom of it. The funny thing is slime-previous-note doesn't have this problem. 20:48:13 prxq: Yes. FSVO "maintained". 20:49:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-65.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:48 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 20:50:52 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:57:32 I wonder if it's related to slime-search-property? 20:57:48 jmbr_ [~jmbr@9.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:58:50 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 20:59:18 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:25 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:59:49 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:51 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:00:15 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:17 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:00:41 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@64.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:00:43 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:44 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:01:10 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:17 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:01:40 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.197.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:01:43 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:47 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:01:50 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.254] has joined #lisp 21:02:12 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:14 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:02:23 njan [~james@freenode/staff/njan] has joined #lisp 21:02:26 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:02:31 stassats: slime-next-note calls slime-find-next-note. That seems ok. Then it calls slime-show-note which calls slime-goto-note-in-compilation-log which calls slime-find-next-note. It seems something is not restoring point to the original position. 21:02:38 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:40 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:02:51 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 21:03:04 danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:07 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-69-141-20-254.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:03:26 rtoym: but it should do that in a different buffer 21:05:53 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.254] has quit [Client Quit] 21:07:40 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 21:08:04 xan_ [~xan@206.111.142.135.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:58 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:13:41 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:14:44 MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.153] has joined #lisp 21:16:55 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:17:38 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:21:36 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has joined #lisp 21:21:52 macrocat [~marmalade@142.177.92.68] has joined #lisp 21:22:44 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:23:54 jmbr__ [~jmbr@6.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:24:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:25:49 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@9.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:26:16 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 21:28:52 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:53 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:31:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:31:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 21:31:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:34:03 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:34:49 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:12 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 21:35:25 http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html 21:40:48 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:28 -!- jmbr__ is now known as jmbr 21:41:32 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@6.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:42:38 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:50:55 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:52:19 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.249.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:23 >Unless they pay thousands of dollars, Lisp hackers are still stuck with Emacs. 21:54:27 and how is that a bad thing? 21:54:59 ... we pay those thousands for the implemnetation, not the IDE 21:55:52 *Landr* never played with zmacs though 21:58:38 ... just another Emacs with good mouse support in Lisp Mode? 21:59:21 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:59:29 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f899.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:17 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-144-213.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:21 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.115.33] has joined #lisp 22:01:50 -!- xtcx [~thomas@unaffiliated/xtcx] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:02:25 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-167-48.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:02:40 heh, dwim.hu works pretty well on kindle, including ajax and stuff... I'm surprised 22:03:42 attila_lendvai: the official page or something else? 22:03:56 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:04:21 p_l|backup: I mean that loading http://dwim.hu with the kindle browser works surprisingly well 22:04:36 attila_lendvai: well, it's just the standard Webkit 22:04:40 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:04:57 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:05:00 anyone here using sbcl from homebrew (mac) ? 22:05:11 well, I was expecting a much more limited experience 22:05:40 attila_lendvai: nah, the main issue is the screen, but it gets the updates from framebuffer so I'mnot sure whether the code would notice 22:05:45 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:06:17 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 22:08:17 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:08:56 -!- msmith1 [~msmit297@adsl-190-140-90.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:09:03 Woshin [~Woshin@c-66-30-108-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:57 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:10:00 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:10:18 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 22:10:18 Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.105.39] has joined #lisp 22:11:38 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 22:13:29 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.248.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:16:58 xtcx [~thomas@adsl-070-145-036-129.sip.aby.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:58 -!- xtcx [~thomas@adsl-070-145-036-129.sip.aby.bellsouth.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:16:58 xtcx [~thomas@unaffiliated/xtcx] has joined #lisp 22:23:44 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@89.129.116.150] has joined #lisp 22:28:50 spacemagic [~chatzilla@c-24-245-21-197.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:34 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 22:31:11 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:32:22 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:32:24 Landr: Well, we already have several emacsen written in Common Lisp, so we're not really stuck. Now, anybody could attain Xach fame by integrating climacs or Hemlock with slime/swank. 22:32:35 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 22:32:56 (ccl tries hard, providing Hemlock in a GUI IDE in its MacOSX images). 22:33:35 udzinari: I tried to use homebrew, but it doesn't run on PowerPC, so I stay with macports. 22:33:43 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:35:44 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38:30 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:39:41 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-29-226.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 22:39:49 -!- xtcx [~thomas@unaffiliated/xtcx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:15 Bahman [~Bahman@2.144.210.36] has joined #lisp 22:41:23 Hi all! 22:42:51 I'm about to start learning Lisp. I'd like to know your opinion on which implementation to use. Also if there's a standard way to setup the environment I'd be grateful if someone could point it to me. 22:43:31 Bahman: what OS/architecture? 22:43:44 p_l|backup: Linux, x64 22:44:12 Bahman: install SBCL (either from distro package, or from www.sbcl.org), then install emacs 22:44:33 then go to http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ and follow the instructions 22:44:34 p_l|backup: Emacs or XEmacs? If there's any difference. 22:44:38 Emacs 22:44:46 XEmacs slowed down in developement 22:45:03 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:57 p_l|backup: Thanks a lot. 22:46:12 Oh BTW, I've got 'practical common lisp' book. Is that enough? 22:46:17 yes 22:46:34 PCL is one of the best sources you can use, especially if you already programmed before 22:46:49 its author is here as well :-) 22:46:51 In Lisp? No. But I am a programmer. 22:47:02 then yes, PCL is exactly for people like you :) 22:47:22 -!- paul0 [~user@187.112.64.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:47:32 Good morning everyone! 22:47:35 Excellent. Looks like all pieces are falling into place. 22:47:39 Morning beach. 22:47:43 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:47:49 Thanks again p_l|backup. 22:48:23 Bahman: btw, gigamonkey here is PCL's author :) 22:49:05 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 22:49:23 beach: 'morning 22:49:28 Excellent. So nice to have the author here. I'll bombard him with questions in the coming days :-D 22:49:34 gigamonkey: Just kidding :-) 22:49:42 Bahman: when you've gotten hold of emacs, you'll want to have slime on it, too. 22:50:02 Bahman: p_l|backup seems to have forgotten to mention that :) 22:50:04 antoszka: quicklisp has info on that 22:50:07 -!- NamelessTee [~Ben@AReims-552-1-63-135.w92-147.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:50:14 antoszka: Can I install it using quicklisp? 22:50:28 -!- symbole [~user@50-56-91-243.static.cloud-ips.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:31 Bahman: it's mentioned in the link I gave you (or at least was) 22:50:39 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-194-209-80.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:11 p_l|backup: Yes it is. I didn't look thoroughly. 22:51:15 symbole [~user@50-56-91-243.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:21 And what's this SLIME good for? 22:51:42 Nevermind folks. I have to figure it out myself. 22:51:44 it's what makes emacs from a text editor into a lisp IDE. 22:51:45 you can consider it anIDE :) 22:51:55 Aha. 22:51:59 contains a debugger, inspector, nice development tools 22:52:13 Are there any other IDEs for lisp except than Emacs? 22:52:13 all the good things that make developing lisp easy and fun (: 22:52:38 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:45 none that I'm aware of, apart from the ones that come with commercial lisps 22:52:54 (allegro cl ships one, and lispworks does too) 22:53:25 Alright. So I have to learn Emacs. I've heard terrible things about it and its keybindings. 22:53:53 it's ok, once you get used to it 22:54:12 Bahman: What do you use? 22:54:38 you'll be able to re-use a few of its keybindings on any unix shell prompt (provided you don't use vi keybindings tehre) (-: 22:55:13 drdo: I'm not a Lisp programmer yet. Just trying to get an overall picture of the ecosystem :-) 22:55:20 Bahman: I mean for text editing 22:55:57 drdo: Aha. If on command line, I use Vi. 22:56:11 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3397.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:57:11 drdo: Not a pro Vi user though. I come from Java world so am used to IDEs like Eclipse. 22:57:26 I use vi mostly for editing system configuration files. 22:57:40 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:22 Bahman: heh, I keep using nano or (recently) ViM for those as well 22:59:52 Yes. Good thing about vi is that it's every where. I remember back in 2001 when I was working on Minix (a 3 diskette operating system back then) Vi was there :-) 23:00:12 So quite a handy thing for sys admin. 23:01:19 Bahman: ... unfortunately recently Linux distros (and FOSS as a whole) is playing fast and loose with unix ideals 23:01:22 no, ed is everywhere! 23:01:33 I managed to find a system without ed ¬_¬ 23:01:43 blasphemy! 23:01:59 Of course, I fixed that heresy! 23:02:35 stassats: ed is everywhere but I guess now only Thompson and Ritchie use it :-P 23:02:36 p_l|backup: That's a good thing! 23:03:08 drdo: not when they pull the worst bits from all around 23:03:30 drdo: also, note how I said *ideals*, not actual features/implementation/etc. 23:03:36 Bahman: i used it several times, when there was no emacs around 23:03:51 Unix falls short of those, that's why there was Plan9 23:03:57 p_l|backup: What are those ideals then? 23:04:04 p_l|backup: Yes. The only Linux (amongst those I tried) that resembles a Unix is Arch. Closer than others to FreeBSD. 23:04:07 Bahman: also, Thomson and Ritchie might use Acme or Sam. 23:04:26 stassats: I meant no offense. Sure that's a powerful editor. 23:05:09 drdo: componentized, simple system, where you have common API to services etc. in form of files, etc. 23:05:23 tools that do a single thing right, but can be easily composed etc. 23:05:30 p_l|backup: Ah...don't know about them at all. 23:05:39 unix shmunix, where are my Lisp OSs? 23:06:05 Bahman: well, ed was designed for use on ASR-33. They didn't think it was good choice for a visual system :) 23:06:45 :-) 23:07:05 Acme in fact depends on mouse 23:07:06 -!- algorist [~quassel@host12-35-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:07:08 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:07:31 a mouse, of course, accessed through /dev/mouse file :P 23:07:55 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:08:03 Oh! Fossils of mice ;-) 23:08:23 algorist_ [~quassel@host12-35-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:08:39 (in a system in which every window exports the same interface as the framebuffer driver, and just overlays it over system's) 23:09:28 What does (ql:system-apropos "vecto") do in quicklisp? 23:09:58 Bahman: it finds all quicklisp packages that have "vecto" in their name 23:10:05 can't you try it? 23:10:26 similar to how (apropos "something") does it for symbols in Lisp 23:10:41 stassats: I'm actually running the commands from quicklisp intro page but have absolutely no idea what they do. 23:11:03 infer! 23:11:46 I'll try. 23:11:55 p_l|backup: Thanks again. 23:12:57 Bahman: don't get too caught up in the myths, and I think it might be enjoyable ride for you :-) 23:13:35 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@174-25-37-137.ptld.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:13:40 no! i refuse give up my smugness! 23:13:53 stassats: ... I'm not telling you to 23:14:07 p_l|backup: Actually right now I have no sense of what's a myth :-D 23:14:10 it just takes time to *really* appreciate it :) 23:14:25 Bahman: heh 23:14:53 Bahman: like, lisp give you supehuman powers 23:14:58 except, that's not a myth 23:15:11 stassats: Ah... 23:15:44 Nah that's not. I've read that once I learn lisp I can build my own SkyNet! 23:16:10 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@98.234.186.226] has joined #lisp 23:16:28 it's just a programming language, a tool, won't turn into an AGI or anything... but you might find out at one point that in surprisingly short & simple code, you managed to get something great 23:16:53 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:17:02 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:18 p_l|backup: Lisp has always been a mystery to me. My main motive is to clear it out and find out why this old language is still widely appreciated (and used?) 23:18:30 Bahman: You'll probably miss the challenge of programming in Java 23:19:16 hahaha 23:19:33 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 23:19:44 I'm actually torn between using CL or Erlang in a new startup. 23:19:47 What fun is programming if your language doesn't fight back? :S 23:19:51 drdo: I might miss Java's vast libraries. 23:20:35 both would be fitting for the job, with CL being easier to implement (I guess), and Erlang having great implementation to minimize resource usage 23:20:52 Bahman: most of the libraries in lisp that are in wide use today are younger than 5 years old (: 23:20:58 (common lisp, I mean) 23:21:00 p_l|backup: What are you doing? 23:21:17 drdo: a "casual" filesharing tool (mainly for smartphone use) 23:21:20 ask Xach, he has download stats! (: 23:21:27 p_l|backup: Tried Erlang last year. Very concise and precise. But it was really hard to think in Erlang way. In fact, it sort of distracted my focus on the problem and made me think of the coding details. 23:21:31 p_l|backup: so... porn? 23:21:37 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:21:51 (which is what mobile file sharing always boils down to...) (: 23:21:54 Bahman: Java is the king of that 23:21:56 antifuchs: ... we actually discussed it yesterday under possible issues from law 23:22:16 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:35 p_l|backup: first rule of business: host somewhere else (-; 23:23:05 especially since 1) teenagers are a huge market 2) due to crazy laws and their interpretation, a 16yo sending a pic of herself undressed to boyfriend is illegal 3) Someone *will* do it 23:23:16 exactly 23:23:27 antifuchs: we are going for military-grade plausible deniability 23:23:33 :P 23:23:39 p_l|backup: That never fails to amaze me 23:24:02 But the best one is 18 year olds getting in trouble for looking at pictures of themselves taken before they were 18 23:24:16 p_l|backup: hahaha 23:24:45 drdo: narcissism is bad 23:24:46 drdo: no, the best one is 13yo (girl, pregnant) and 12yo boy accused of statutory rape of each other 23:24:52 p_l|backup: I'm glad you're bringing the issues of a connected future closer (: 23:24:55 wormphle1m [~wormphleg@c-98-234-186-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:13 i guess off-topic is worse 23:25:17 p_l|backup: nice! 23:25:43 so yeah, I'm making sure that even if I wanted to, I won't be able to figure what people are sending through :D 23:26:11 Well, you shouldn't anyway 23:26:23 (links are provided through a separate channel, so we can't track that either) 23:26:58 all the server ever sees is encrypted blob and expiration date 23:27:20 p_l|backup: I don't think i understand what you going to be doing though 23:27:47 drdo: we are targeting small-scale, individual file sharing. 23:28:03 p_l|backup: So people just upload stuff to you so others can download it? 23:28:07 like sending a file from a friend to friend 23:28:10 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@98.234.186.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:29:15 drdo: except optimized for casual, smartphone use, where you simply want to send something to another person, but bluetooth isn't an option and you don't want meddling with more powerful services or one of the web-based ones like rapidshare 23:29:30 you want to simply "send" and tell your friend the code to download it 23:29:41 -!- Jake_ [~Jake@71-89-15-161.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:29:48 I won't go into more details for now, but it might actually have a working demo soon 23:30:57 Jake_ [~Jake@71-89-15-161.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:10 the "big" problem seems to be micropayments :D 23:31:56 (I don't think advertising is a viable way to fund it) 23:32:41 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:32:43 I don't know much about the market you're targeting, but i can't think of how you could make money from it 23:33:02 easy, partner with cellphone companies. (: 23:33:02 Specially if you are talking about teenagers, which lack money 23:33:07 that is cellphone providers 23:33:25 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-167-48.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit:    .    ...] 23:33:34 drdo: a certain level of use would be free 23:33:36 they handle the micropayment for you, and teenagers are already handing over wads of money to cell service providers. 23:33:58 and yes, teenagers aren't actually in such shortage of money 23:34:09 That quit msg is hilarious. 23:34:23 You probably works differently over there 23:34:25 *It 23:34:35 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:34:43 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 23:34:46 teenagers, young adults, etc. are the money cow of quite a lot of companies, due to shelling out tons of money towards things like ringtones etc. 23:35:13 p_l|backup: Oh yes, there's that 23:35:24 what is more important is to make it easy to pay by use, not make it a subscription-only payment 23:35:51 so yeah, micropayments, or possibly just small payments exchanged into "stamps" to use 23:36:41 p_l|backup: Do people do that a lot? Exchange files using smartphones? 23:36:43 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-30-157.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Quit] 23:37:17 drdo: it seems curbed by how hard it can be 23:37:22 I never had one 23:37:50 I just use my laptop 23:37:58 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 23:38:23 drdo: there's quite a lot for sharing photos, for example, but it requires you to either post them online (which might be hard without a proper mobile site etc.) or use BT, which requires close contact 23:38:53 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87f899.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 23:38:59 our "links" are designed in a way that makes it easy to simply tell them to other person :) 23:39:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:40:37 I see 23:41:11 p_l|backup: I have a lot of trouble thinking about that sort of thing, because i can't see myself every using it 23:41:18 basically, the idea is that we make sending content from one person to another *easy*. *damn easy*. How it is used, is less of an issue 23:41:34 There's a lot of stuff that is incredibly popular that i don't understand why 23:42:15 drdo: I wouldn't use it right now either, but that's mainly because 1) I tend not to have reliable internet connection on smartphone 2) I'm not put off by complex tools. 23:42:48 But If I had an "always on" or close enough internet connection... I might use it 23:45:05 I think a big part of having success in the smartphone market is having a really good UI 23:45:19 smartphones are really awkward to use, so anything that makes that better is a win 23:45:39 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 23:47:34 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:48:33 drdo: well, more of "UX", encompassing both UI and how you use it 23:48:52 and yes, that's what I see us our "killer feature" :) 23:48:59 http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/04/15/2118220 <--- oh wow 23:50:09 I'd love seeing google buying the music industry! :-) 23:50:19 p_l|backup: What's the difference between UX and UI? 23:50:22 That would make Holywood think twice... 23:50:56 drdo: UI is just the interface, UX is basically the whole of user experience, including how the features mesh with what the users do etc. 23:51:13 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:51:17 even reliability goes into that 23:51:49 I see 23:52:41 -!- Phrixos [~clarkema@unaffiliated/phrixos] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:55:14 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:55:36 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.10 -- Are we there yet?] 23:56:00 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 23:56:30 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 23:58:04 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp