00:00:25 what are you trying to say? 00:00:38 How many provides must occur in "file.lisp"? and relative to what path does swank-require find that file? 00:01:04 sirmacik [sirmacik@unaffiliated/sirmacik] has joined #lisp 00:01:11 at least one, relative to *default-pathname-defaults*, i would guess, but who cares? 00:01:32 give it an absolute pathname, to be sure 00:01:35 Good morning everyone! 00:02:11 what would you venture is the general default *default-pathname-defaults* when swank:swank-require is called? 00:03:14 and with regards the first query? How many provides... ? 00:03:17 i would venture calling an implementation which does that "sane" 00:03:28 mon_key: at least one 00:04:01 All of which you'll no doubt agree is made manifest in both the manual and the docstring of swank:swank-require? 00:04:28 i don't understand this question 00:04:52 I know. and i'm sorry for that. 00:05:53 In all likleyhood the _general default_ *default-pathname-defaults* is #P"some/path/to/slime" 00:06:34 does it matter? 00:09:04 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.247.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:09:26 IIUC the interface as presented in order for me to effectively use swank:swank-require i must pass do: (swank:swank-require '("MOD-1" "MOD-2" "MOD-3" "MOD-4") #P"/absolute/path/to/file.lisp") where the modules "MOD-1" "MOD-2" "MOD-3" "MOD-4" are each provided in the one file #P"/absolute/path/to/file.lisp" 00:10:01 -!- muhdik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:10:52 whoosh, you should use (swank-require "MOD-1" path-to-mod-1-file) (swank-require "MOD-2" path-to-mod-2-file), etc. 00:11:04 Yeah. this is what i thought. 00:11:34 or in the alternative: (swank-require "MOD-1") 00:11:58 passing a list of modules is only effective when they are in the load path 00:12:07 Now in the alternative where does SWANK:SWANK-REQUIRE find "MOD-1"? 00:12:23 ... so, how do I redefine a function? 00:12:32 Landr: you define it again 00:12:34 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:36 *Landr* tried playing with function, symbol-function, and #' a lot 00:12:42 stassats: but then it whines at me 00:12:45 mon_key: in the load path, haven't we covered that already? 00:13:01 Landr: pay no attention 00:13:34 stuyle warning, hmpf 00:13:37 -u 00:13:47 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:12 it doesn't apply in this case 00:15:33 mon_key i really appreciate your efforts in these areas -- until i stumbled on your pastes i was in the dark about a lot of these ways to customize and enhance 00:17:16 it is actuallly a lesson that has made working a noticibly better experience 00:17:44 i don't appreciate it! it brings knowledge to the masses, i can't be elite anymore! 00:17:59 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:18:14 stassats: we covered it sufficient for you to gloss over the reality that user-code must do multiple calls to swank-require to load multiple modules each of which must be either a) explicilty provided with an absolute pathname or b) passed with the module's where its pathname has already been pushed onto swank::*load-path*. So what does danlentz do if he wants to push some absolute pathnames onto swank:*load-path* from his init file 00:18:14 prior to defining some swank related functions for his special needs? 00:18:32 give a man a slime-repl-shortcut and he slimes for a day. TEACH a man to slime-repl-shortcut... well you get it 00:18:34 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 00:19:36 danlentz: NP though FWIW the slime-devels have long agoe done all the heavy lifting. 00:19:37 mon_key: i thought you were looking at the code, and assumed that this was obvious 00:20:41 i don't really know what's going on here, do you want me to describe every minute detail and every corner case? 00:20:47 stassats: its not at all obvious. if it had been i wouldn't have bothered writing my own interface to accomodate my needs. 00:21:20 the #lisp habitants are probably already fed up enough by our discussion 00:21:49 BrokenCog [~bc@pool-108-18-161-218.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:10 it only makes it easier for more of us to appreciate the great job they do if they open the game get more people off the bench 00:22:29 mon_key: i have the same code as you, it's the source of my answers 00:23:10 danlentz: it's open, just read the code 00:23:25 stassats: To be sure if it were simply about how you do it vs. me then indeed i'm wasting everyones time 00:24:07 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-235-180.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:24:40 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 00:24:44 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.247.62] has joined #lisp 00:25:31 On avg. how many times a day does a newcomer to CL/Emacs/Slime with config issues? FWIW I didn't bother bringing those questions to _any_ forum b/c i assumed that 99% of my misunderstandings were a result of my own inability to grok the obvious. Having spent a fair amount of time learning Emacs and emacs lisp and having become reasonably familiar with CL I'm pretty sure its _not_ all the obvious. 00:25:48 the issue isnt that its difficult the issue is that its kind of obscure 00:26:43 Its _somewhat_ difficult and relatively obscure. 00:26:58 danlentz: are you interested in slime internals? 00:27:40 it's difficult if you have no experience or familiarity with it, you need time to get better at it 00:27:56 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:28:35 unfortunately, there is no short-cut when you want to understand a large code-base written by someone else 00:29:03 well from a practical prerspective if there are ways that i can invest an hour here or there to make signinficant and lasting improvements in my day to day working experience -- hell yeah! 00:29:19 and slime is easy-peasy, compared to SBCL internals 00:29:47 danlentz: did you read the slime manual from cover to cover? 00:30:41 i dont even think that is work dignifying with an actual answer. 00:30:59 stassats: a few days/weeks back you mentioned that the entry for new features to slime/swank is relatively guarded b/c of feature creep. Thats _fine_ by me. I really do _appreciate_ that it is. What is troublesome is that there are features one would like to extend their slime/swank environment with and possibly to share with others and that is not so easy to do. 00:32:18 copying files into the slime tree is _usually_ not a problem 00:32:36 it is exactly what you've suggested that is very much a problem. 00:33:04 danlentz: it's the best investment of your hours if you want to become more productive with slime 00:33:18 and then, there's emacs manual 00:33:36 i always pick-up something new when i read parts of it periodically 00:33:41 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:34:08 danlentz: grep the slime manual for *load-path* 00:34:43 omissions of slime manual don't invalidate what already is there 00:36:00 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 00:36:46 stassats: I have at least three machines that need to have the following synchronized: my emacs/slime configs, my cl-path, my quicklisp paths, my sbcl paths, not to mention all of my personal CL code to coexis in harmony. Periodically they get out of step. Of late the biggest offender is slime/swank... 00:37:40 -!- madscience [d8ef2d04@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.239.45.4] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:39:38 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 00:40:50 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 00:43:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:43:35 with quicklisp on the march the skies are opening up a little bit for common-lisp. There is no reason to regard the wider perspective user-community with so much hostility 00:44:09 danlentz: Thanks for the concision :) 00:45:26 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:45:46 hey I'm with you on this totally. this could be the tea-party of the slime user community :)_ 00:46:24 great, now i'm hostile 00:47:00 dude 00:47:07 danlentz: FWIW I'm torn. i don't think stassats is at all hostile I have _a lot_ of empathy for his position. 00:47:24 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-41-182.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:48:31 my position is, ditch slime, rewrite it from scratch rainbows and unicorns 00:48:36 how many times today did you suggest i go pursue perl? And i wasn't even asking any questions I've been pretty busy all day 00:48:41 with 00:48:49 danlentz: once 00:48:52 :) 00:49:08 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:49:44 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 00:49:57 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:50:28 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:52:08 danlentz: e.g. How exactly should one react when there are relatively few minda available and capable of tending and maintaining a large complicated and phonomenally complex legacy code bases esp. when there is essentially little public reward or gratitude for doing so? 00:53:14 to hell with public, i do everything for myself! 00:53:20 bullshit 00:54:27 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839B04.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:54:31 well ok. i mean I'm not upset its stupid issue but im just saying im not the enemy i love what they've done and am really excited to work with this stuff. 00:55:11 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 00:57:21 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:14 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.12.183] has joined #lisp 00:59:19 JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has joined #lisp 01:00:25 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:24 danlentz: Try this on for size. How many newish non RDBMS/SQL based cl persistence layers have you found in the last 18 months? I count Quicklisp, storage, kyoto, tokyo, chillax, planks, de.setf.resource, zcdb, usenet-legend etc. 01:01:53 probably just about everyone here as probably sacrificed and persevered to some degree or another. maybe thats a tone thats misunderstood sometimes. its not that any of this is criticism -- its that its very cool and want to join the fun 01:03:11 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:32 -!- Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:03:53 I imagine that as Quicklisp continues to improve and expand the CL situation newer users will be clamoring for more dynamic interaction with these beasts from within the collected CL/slime/swanks/emacs environment -- it seems only natural that one would want to do so. 01:03:57 yeah but its not just repeatedly the same idea -- its a pretty rich environment of creativiity and innovation. 01:05:12 I've played with all of those you listed to some extent except usenet-legend i never heard of that 01:05:41 looks like i know what I'll be doing later... 01:06:06 writing your own web-framework with your own persistence? 01:06:07 danlentz: its Xach's naggum archive. 01:06:34 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-203-181.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:07:34 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-203-181.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:32 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 01:09:24 ah cool. time to fire up a little montezuma 01:09:25 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:45 danlentz: From what I can gather none of the persistence stuff is remotely easy. Indeed, i grasp very little of what they entail or how they do what they do. But, I can certainly imagine ways to create and extend user interfaces into one or two of them. Indeed, that is likely the most relevant contribution i should/could make to the CL project. Its insanity to continue reinventing what others before me have done with better chops and 01:09:45 with more resources... So, FWIW thats my angle. 01:09:52 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.78.146] has joined #lisp 01:10:25 actually i use de.setf.resource 01:10:35 yes. i assumed so :) 01:11:24 someone should research all of them and combine all the cool features 01:13:23 stassats: there are different aspects. I believe the two critical threads that bind most of them are persisten unique-identity and fast interaction with the underlying os filesystem. 01:13:58 i love this stuff. i think its awesome that many of these guys are around and are willing to spend a little time here and tere to talk with users 01:14:17 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 01:14:18 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 01:14:18 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 01:14:29 i recently removed uniqueness of identity, because it allowed for some speed-ups 01:14:43 from storage? 01:14:47 yes 01:15:47 ah, i remember now, because i can use an array for the cache instead of a hashtable that way 01:15:53 around which file ? 01:16:15 disk/ ASSIGN-IDS? 01:16:34 so, before saving to disc i go through all objects and assign an id to them consequently, and then write a number of objects at the beginning of a file 01:17:07 then i create an array of that size when reading, and after reading i get read of that array 01:17:15 s/read/rid/ 01:17:44 I'm a fan of all you guys, stassats. I've probably got a printout of storage withtin two feet of where in'm sitting... 01:18:24 nefo_ [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 01:19:04 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:22 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:19:32 -!- nefo_ [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Client Quit] 01:19:42 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 01:19:43 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 01:19:43 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 01:20:22 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:22:09 stassats: so earlier when asking about "descend" and identity my question had to do specifically with whether there were gains to be had comparing an 128bit bit-vector representation of a UUID versus an array of 16 octets representing an UUID. This is something vivace-graph-2 is doing.... 01:22:11 too bad it's quite tailored to my needs, but performance was my number one priority 01:24:53 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:25:10 lisp has always been a kind of melting pot for many ideas and diverse scools of thought 01:25:29 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:26:20 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:27 sometimes I pity the fact that it's so easy to get caught in perfectionism when using it, though 01:27:55 howso? 01:28:58 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-205-117.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:29:34 mon_key: because you end up with a situation where a) you sit around trying to design perfect stuff and end up not getting anything done b) Everyone writes their own little design, which leads to lack of big "common" systms 01:30:02 it's of course also a strength in the language that you can do it all, it's just that it has interesting socio-psychological effects 01:30:17 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@wsip-70-164-121-172.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:57 OK. though i don't understand how situation b is a form of perfectionism. 01:31:51 mon_key: "perfect" for what you want at the moment, that is :) 01:32:28 i liked his approach when he started out on vivache 1.0 it was beautifyllt clear example but showng how to put into practice these techniques advocated by norvig 01:32:52 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:52 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:34:04 mon_key: and all of this reminds me that I need to sit down and write a certain app or two 01:34:36 p_l|backup: indeed. 01:34:48 and that's just thinking about stuff for *others*, not the "godforsaken music player that doesn't suck" which goes after me since high school 01:35:21 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:36:12 or stuff I want to sell by itself 01:36:36 mon_key: would you use something like a string-hash for that case re: uuid 01:37:15 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:19 danlentz: what i was looking at was SB-INT:BIT-VECTOR-= 01:38:15 danlentz: I was/am interested b/c bit-vectors have AFAIK a different equality than byte-arrays 01:38:36 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:39:10 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 01:41:40 hm thats interesting. the string-hash is what franz uses for fast octet vector eq-check 01:41:50 danlentz: as best i can tell there is little if any performance gain with SB-INT:BIT-VECTOR-= versus equalp of the equivalent byte-array. In either case i'm testing with an optimized version of the UUID library. As it is i don't have a 64bit machine to do comparisons with so I've no idea if there are any additional gains to be had esp. w/r/t the 48bit integer portion of a UUID. 01:42:40 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:57 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 01:43:11 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:43:25 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.113.217] has joined #lisp 01:43:32 In any event i guess i'm partial to bit-vectors and this prob. has something to do not being able to convince myself that there aren't maybe other compelling reasons not to use a bit-vector for equality tests versus the equivalent byte-array 01:43:55 y well the string hash gives good efficiencies. And caches the value so its not continually rehashing eithrt 01:45:49 danlentz: the thing is there isn't really any correspondence between the string hash and the UUID object. whereas with the vectors its at least some hash on the underlying integers. 01:46:37 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:47:25 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: being a tool] 01:48:09 e.g. vivace-graph-v2 sxhash-uuid does this: (defun sxhash-uuid (uuid) (sxhash (uuid:print-bytes nil uuid))) 01:49:27 which IMHO wrong (not to mention slower than need be) b/c of uuid:print-bytes which is just plain backwards headed 01:50:12 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 01:55:15 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:57:24 i will have to check what approach used by j anderson in the de.setf.cassandra-mediator where has similar use-case 02:04:12 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:11:39 DiaitaDoc [~DiaitaDoc@bas1-ottawa01-1177967261.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:12:44 rurban [~demo@178-191-212-119.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 02:13:21 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:15:02 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 02:20:17 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:22:16 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:59 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@wsip-70-164-121-172.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:35 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-71-190-76-39.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:51 fihi09 [~user@pool-71-190-76-39.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:39:45 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 02:42:30 -!- BrokenCog [~bc@pool-108-18-161-218.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:41 BrokenCog [~bc@pool-108-18-161-218.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:07 astoon [~astoon@94.25.196.89] has joined #lisp 02:44:30 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:01 -!- astoon [~astoon@94.25.196.89] has quit [Client Quit] 02:47:21 astoon [~astoon@94.25.196.89] has joined #lisp 02:47:52 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 02:48:38 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 02:54:25 -!- DiaitaDoc [~DiaitaDoc@bas1-ottawa01-1177967261.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Want to be different? Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] 02:58:01 cpc261 [~cpc26@66-87-0-11.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:11 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-1-112.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:02:03 Tau [~tau@189-127-57-135.i-next.psi.br] has joined #lisp 03:02:06 hi. 03:02:17 i'm implementing a lisp in python. 03:02:23 well. it is similar in syntax. 03:02:29 i would like some tips. 03:02:52 and having an insight about some ideas. 03:03:19 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.39.187.245] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 03:03:44 one of them is: would it be interesting having " as an operator which means: from this point take it all till the end of this statement. so "(+ (1 - 1) 2) would pass 'raw' code to a function which would be receiving that. 03:04:33 -!- BrokenCog [~bc@pool-108-18-161-218.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:04:50 Tau: Oh, you mean like ' in most Lisp dialects? 03:05:11 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:06:11 beach, yes. but, ' would mean : take it all till the end of the outermost statement, like (str 'abc d c e) str would receive abc d c e 03:06:12 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:59 Tau: I don't think you will recieve any positive feedback on such a suggestion here. 03:07:35 *|3b|* thinks it would be more useful to think in terms of 'form' rather than 'statement', not sure any lisps work in terms of 'statements' 03:08:18 beach, why? 03:08:20 <|3b|> and that interpretation of ' is just odd 03:08:23 *beach* agrees with |3b| 03:08:30 alright. 03:08:36 <|3b|> seems like a halfway version of forth [] or something 03:10:37 -!- longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:46 <|3b|> would that ' be a special case handled by the ( reader or something? 03:10:55 Tau: I could give you technical reasons, but mainly because you are in a Common Lisp channel and most people wouldn't think your suggestion is an improvement with respect to Common Lisp. 03:11:06 *|3b|* isn't sure how you would make it work in the general case if the reader was at all extensible 03:11:23 beach, no. it isn't an improvement to common lisp. 03:11:29 The reader would be one of the technical reasons I could think of. 03:11:31 it isn't intented to be 'common lisp' at all. 03:11:45 it is more like a dialect of lisp. 03:11:45 Tau: And since it isn't, I am not sure you would get any positive feedback here. 03:11:48 http://codepad.org/cTSli520 03:12:00 look like its code looks like. 03:12:07 beach, where could i 03:12:21 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 03:12:54 SailorReality [~SailorRea@74.198.150.22] has joined #lisp 03:12:59 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 03:13:00 you can forget about your language for a while, learn some CL, and then you'll see how it should look like 03:13:09 SailorReality, kk 03:13:12 ah. pnq is here. 03:13:37 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 03:13:41 stassats, what the fuck man. i'm just implementing a dialect of lisp. 03:13:46 it isn't intented to be a 'common lisp'. 03:13:53 stassats, when did i see i don't know cl 03:13:55 anyone knows cl 03:14:07 i just learnt cl in an afternoon. 03:14:08 lol 03:14:10 *|3b|* has no idea what that code is supposed to show 03:14:30 |3b|, i'm asking if it would be interesting having that two 'operators' for ' and ". 03:14:41 interesting of some viewpoint. 03:14:44 *|3b|* sees no point in them 03:14:52 kkk 03:14:59 Tau: sorry i made you degrade to this level 03:15:06 stassats, hm? 03:15:10 <|3b|> "" is a pretty standard way to delimit strings if that is what you are trying to do with ' 03:15:26 i'm getting a weird feeling about this channel. 03:15:29 <|3b|> and ' is a pretty standard way to avoid evaluation of a single form if that is what you are trying to do with " 03:15:45 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-063-238.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:16:01 |3b|, " is for passing raw code to functions. 03:16:41 <|3b|> Tau: how is that different from passing unevaluated code to a function, which is what ' does? (in the context of an argument to a function) 03:17:05 <|3b|> for example (print '(+ 1 2 3)) would print (+ 1 2 3) 03:17:25 I feel sick 03:17:28 watching this 03:17:31 <|3b|> or (eval '(+ 1 2 3)) -> 6 03:17:38 and I dont even know lisp 03:17:46 |3b|, 03:17:56 |3b|, i just want to call it as " 03:17:57 in this 03:18:00 fucking 03:18:02 implementation 03:18:11 stop this 03:18:11 |3b|, sure. 03:18:12 Tau, maybe you should get lost. 03:18:32 i just forgot what i was thinking. 03:18:37 <|3b|> well, don't know why you are asking us then :) 03:18:39 let me remember. 03:18:52 *|3b|* goes back to working on stuff instead of feeding trolls 03:19:12 lol 03:19:36 |3b|, you are the troll i think. 03:19:39 if you heave that way. 03:20:15 Tau: I'll stop as well, but just to summarize: You come here asking for feedback on a Lisp dialect which doesn't represent any improvement on the one this channel is about, and then you get angry when that feedback is negative? 03:20:32 beach, dude 03:20:40 beach, i'm doing it just for fun. 03:20:42 *|3b|* wonders how long someone would last in #python asking "I'm writing a python in lisp, and i want to use () for strings, does that sound like a good idea?" 03:20:45 beach, could you be gentle? 03:20:51 and guide me 03:20:52 thru 03:20:54 this fabulous 03:20:55 world 03:20:56 of 03:20:57 lisp 03:21:01 go away 03:21:15 is that hard ? 03:21:15 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-130-86.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:21:36 i think you both don't know a fuck about lisp implementation. 03:21:54 so, both of you are being rude as a way of hidding your lack of knowledge. 03:22:06 stassats, mainly you. 03:22:10 lol 03:23:12 you made yourself feel better by lowering me in your eyes, now you can stop talking 03:23:50 stassats, unlike you, i don't feel better, and it isn't me who lowered you. it is you. 03:24:18 stassats, someone who starts being rude at others with no purpose they obviously are insecure about themselves. 03:24:42 it isn't needed to be a genius to see that you don't know any thing stassats and is just wanting to appear as 'the cool dude' to your fellows. 03:25:06 and, it is obvious that |3b| and his friend don't know anything as well. 03:25:15 otherwise they would just help me. 03:25:23 and not say 'oh, go away, it isn't common lisp'. 03:25:23 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:33 Tau: stassats and |3b| have nothing to prove to you. 03:25:45 Wow, drama, scrolling back up! 03:25:48 beach, they don't. but they have done it. 03:26:17 *beach* stops. 03:26:45 drdo: nothing new 03:26:55 -!- SailorReality [~SailorRea@74.198.150.22] has left #lisp 03:27:18 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5-dev] 03:28:51 stassats: Eh, i'm disappointed, the trolling was far too obvious 03:29:08 you all are trolling me. 03:29:09 not me to you. 03:29:09 not like the old days anymore 03:29:11 that is funny. 03:29:49 Tau: You need to study the fine art of trolling 03:30:00 You're doing it wrong 03:30:08 drdo, stassats, beach: i assure you that he isn't trolling. he actually thinks he's doing something productive 03:30:19 drdo, i'm not a troll. 03:30:32 pnq, it is product for me. 03:30:39 pnq, i'm just it for fun. 03:30:42 <|3b|> 'being trolled' is productive? 03:30:46 I'm not even sure i understand what he wants 03:31:00 pnq told you about his lisp interpreter in js? 03:31:06 pnq, show it here. 03:31:27 pnq: it's the usual pattern, when someone can't handle criticism and slides down into trollish behaviour 03:31:35 From what i understand he wants to have a reader macro for QUOTE with #\" ? 03:31:41 drdo, i don't care a fuck of what you think man. you are just a man whose dick is smaller than your noise so you stick around trying to self affirmate to a bunch of people in the irc. 03:31:45 that is fucking disgusting. 03:31:46 lol 03:31:59 nor you stassats . 03:32:17 which probably didn't solve your sexual problems at your anal fase. 03:32:21 Tau: Really terrible 03:32:27 That is not how you troll 03:32:28 so you keep all time trying to make people like you. 03:32:31 like your fellows. 03:32:36 You need to keep your cool 03:32:41 dRbiG, you are such a moron. 03:32:44 And carefully construct your statements 03:32:45 drdo, 03:32:52 You don't want to set off troll alarms 03:32:54 You want to be subtle 03:33:03 drdo: i think it comes from a misunderstanding of quoting 03:33:07 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:33:08 drdo, if i wanted to troll really 03:33:11 you wouldn't like it 03:33:13 take for sure. 03:33:22 pnq what do you know 03:33:28 you are like 15 years old 03:33:32 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 03:33:32 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 03:33:32 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 03:33:39 Tau: I appreciate a good trolling 03:33:45 dRbiG, 03:33:49 drdo, do you really like trolling? 03:33:57 Tau: Indeed i do when it is well done 03:34:23 drdo, join #calculus. 03:34:27 i want to show you something then. 03:34:42 I'm not interested in calculus 03:34:49 drdo, it isn't 'calculus'. 03:34:51 just someone. 03:34:54 who want you to meet. 03:34:58 drdo, join and leave 03:34:59 if you prefer 03:35:18 How do i join a channel? 03:35:24 drdo, 03:35:27 can #lisp somehow be exempt from this? 03:35:28 ./j #calculus 03:35:30 good luck. 03:35:38 ./j #calculus 03:35:43 Now what? 03:35:43 lol 03:35:50 well. 03:35:53 i don't have more time. 03:36:00 drdo: troll! 03:36:03 How do i talk in it now? 03:36:11 idk 03:36:23 stassats: What are you talking about? 03:37:34 [11]> (eval '(+ 1 1) (- 1 2)) 03:37:40 it wouldn't work in lisp 03:37:42 but 03:38:06 it would work in pysp (eval "(+ 1 1) "(- 1 1)) 03:38:09 it would return 03:38:13 oh 03:38:15 wait 03:38:18 i found a bad example. 03:38:32 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.247.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:38:39 (eval '(+ 1 1) (- 1 2)) works in common lisp 03:38:42 hold on. 03:38:53 evaluates to -1 03:39:09 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 03:41:07 dRbiG, 03:41:08 true 03:41:10 drdo, 03:42:26 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:42:55 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 03:43:48 Tau: Now that's better 03:44:36 dRbiG, 03:44:43 drdo, have you implemented a lisp? 03:44:48 i would like to see it 03:45:07 You can hear it 03:45:25 longfin [~longfin@124.198.53.194] has joined #lisp 03:47:31 -!- astoon [~astoon@94.25.196.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:51:01 muhdik [~qle@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:49 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:05 -!- muhdik [~qle@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:57:03 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:25 muhdik [~qle@www.kiofc.com] has joined #lisp 03:57:27 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:57:44 gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has joined #lisp 04:00:22 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@wsip-70-164-121-172.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:11 drdo: No, it doesn't work in CL, if you mean that eval is CL:EVAL, since CL:EVAL takes a single argument and you're passing it two here. 04:06:59 In scheme, eval takes two arguments, but the second should be an environment, and -1 is not an environment, so it wouldn't work in scheme either. 04:10:15 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:10:46 pjb: Are you trying to ruin my trolling? 04:12:44 <|3b|> drdo: trolling is off topic 04:20:47 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:21:27 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:05 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@wsip-70-164-121-172.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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inspiration from CL's restarts? 05:35:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:35:34 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:33 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:39:21 lifeng [~lifeng@155.69.43.70] has joined #lisp 05:41:22 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@39.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:48:15 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:48:48 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-137-228.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:53 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:49:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-138-123.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:49:53 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 05:52:34 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:55:02 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:59:15 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 06:00:25 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:04:38 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.113.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:05:37 -!- iaindalton [~user@host-72-174-169-102.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:05:56 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.113.217] has joined #lisp 06:06:16 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 06:08:52 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:11:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:15:09 slime docs say that I can somehow setup swank server so I could connect to it outside localhost (so without ssh), how do I do that? 06:15:52 freiksenet: swank::*loopback-interface* 06:16:18 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@wsip-70-164-121-172.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:16:22 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 06:17:02 waaaaaargh_ [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d048d16.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:00 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:20:40 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d87e377.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:21:04 -!- kae [~b@c-c3cae253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:21:27 kae [~b@c-c3cae253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 06:21:35 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 06:22:09 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:22:59 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-171-245-75.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:23:29 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:28:19 stassats: aha, thanks 06:31:23 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:32:24 good morning 06:38:28 leo2007 [~leo@114.249.204.95] has joined #lisp 06:39:49 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 06:39:49 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 06:39:49 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 06:43:23 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 06:52:20 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 06:53:15 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:53:41 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-17.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:06 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-137-228.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:55:08 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 06:56:41 slash_ [~unknown@pD955BDA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:41 Can you guys propose a way to modify the reader so that: ==> ( )? e.g., suppose the specified token is just a single character `$'. Then f$x ==> ($ f x); f$(+ 1 1) ==> ($ f (+ 1 1)) 06:58:42 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59:11 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-rirsfhlqwcvbsyig] has joined #lisp 06:59:20 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-rirsfhlqwcvbsyig] has quit [Changing host] 06:59:20 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:01:56 Make it a non-constituent character. 07:02:41 Ah, sorry. 07:03:26 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03:29 You've reached the point where it's obvious that readtables are a cheap hack that made sense in the dark ages. 07:03:31 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 07:04:10 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pvzvjpbqcyolxgzv] has joined #lisp 07:04:14 You'd more or less need to rewrite the symbol reading code. 07:04:23 That is what I figured. 07:04:31 Is there some form of the backquote operator available in Elisp? 07:04:55 I hope that the readtable hasn't survived into other languages. 07:05:02 easyE: `(1 2 ,(+ 1 2)) 07:05:07 oh, elisp... 07:05:14 *easyE* looks sheepish. 07:05:19 Thanks. 07:07:02 amb007 [~a_bakic@252.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:57 -!- albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Quit: real men don't quit, they flee] 07:09:44 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:10:44 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 07:14:16 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 07:15:49 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:19:33 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-130-17.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:19:51 Quadrescence: one way is to make every character in the readtable dispatch to your own reader, which you can customize to your heart's content. See e.g. cl-python. 07:20:16 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:21:37 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 07:25:35 aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:27:29 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 07:28:50 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:31:12 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7B5CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:32:49 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-225-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:13 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Quit: Love is the law, love under Will.] 07:33:19 zbeasnyy [~mornfall@ip-89-102-5-122.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 07:33:28 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:35:46 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 07:38:06 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:24 splittist [~splittist@201-205.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:42:44 Of course, that doesn't work well with unicode. 07:47:05 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:50:22 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-76-173.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:01 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has joined #lisp 07:53:03 woudshoo [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:06 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:54:10 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-41-182.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:54:12 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 07:59:10 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-33-211.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:44 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-79-106.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:01:22 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:03:42 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 08:04:20 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.204.95] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:12:57 albino [~albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 08:13:37 gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.109.113.217] has joined #lisp 08:15:17 meingbg [~meingbg@c-7ae3e055.85-2-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:15:26 ASau``` [~user@95-28-62-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:15:48 Zeiris [~Zeiris@S010600a0d1423e73.no.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:55 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75795f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:12 (flet ((name (arg ...) ...) defines a function called name within the second ..., right? 08:16:16 ASau` [~user@95-28-62-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:16:24 So if I get compiler errors saying it's undefined, it's clearly a compiler bug and not my own fault? 08:16:33 c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-aucsbyvnssuvotst] has joined #lisp 08:16:37 gaidal__ [~gaidal@113.109.113.217] has joined #lisp 08:17:11 *_3b* doesn't think it is particularly clear from just that 08:17:26 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.113.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 08:17:29 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 08:18:52 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:19:30 https://gist.github.com/915157 - what style atrocities am I comitting? Maybe if I clean up my code, the error will become apparent. 08:19:36 Zeiris: (flet ((name1 (...args1...) ...name1-body...) (name2 (...args2...) ...name2-body...)) ...flet-body...) NAME1 and NAME2 are defined in FLET-BODY, but not in NAME1-BODY or NAME2-BODY 08:19:58 That makes sense. With flet* being the sequential version. 08:20:13 -!- gaidal_ [~gaidal@113.109.113.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:20:16 Zeiris: look at labels 08:20:24 minion: labels 08:20:26 I must be confusing some evaluation order, and having the (: lists map ...) evaluate long after the flet's done. 08:20:28 Zeiris: you're not using autoindentation 08:20:41 if you were, your error would be immediately obvious to you 08:20:49 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-159-243.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:20:50 vim poked my code a bit :\ I assumed that was all the autoindentation I got. 08:20:58 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:20:58 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 08:21:12 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:21:24 vim doesn't know how to properly indent lisp code -- your's is the existence proof :) 08:21:28 -!- gaidal__ [~gaidal@113.109.113.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:21:45 you have a misplaced paren: ((cons name raw-clauses) 08:21:45 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:22:22 which makes the whole FLET part of you defmacro lambda list 08:22:29 your, even 08:23:19 the stray colon here: (let ((clauses (: lists map (lambda (c) (fun-clause c)) raw-clauses))) also probably doesn't do whatever you think it does :) 08:24:06 unless this isn't common lisp or you have a some strange reader-macro active 08:24:25 <_3b> do those FLETs make any sense either? they seem to be missing arglists or something 08:24:26 This isn't common-lisp, so the : is fine. Looking at the starting ((cons ... now. 08:25:05 <_3b> same with the defun returned by the macro possibly 08:25:17 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has left #lisp 08:25:36 well, if that's no common lisp, then i've no idea how to read it. because those lambda-lists are really strange 08:25:44 Blind poking at my usage of (defmacro (args) (body)) appears to produce progress. 08:25:47 onixie [~user@222.92.128.242] has joined #lisp 08:26:13 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:26:14 So, what language is it? 08:27:25 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 08:28:03 Lisp Flavored Erlang. I'm trying to write a macro to refactor ~1k lines of reeeallly trivial protocol definitions. 08:28:16 Probably ~2k lines if this goes well, which it looks like it should! 08:29:40 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:30:09 Are there any tricks to writing/debugging macros without massive trial and error? Some kind of macro-debugger, or macro-debugging-method? I've occasionally been wrapping the output in (quote ...) to see what it's producing at different stages, but success has been mediocre. 08:30:20 macroexpand 08:30:46 Macroexpand seems to stall when I've built up a behemoth like that, though. 08:30:53 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 08:31:10 factoring things into (defmacro foo (...) (expand-foo ...)) and tracing expand-foo 08:31:32 macroexpand stalling sounds... oddd 08:31:32 Zeiris: =% at the opening paren in a vim lisp buffer immediately tells me that this is badly formed. A ,S, d% and P later and - apart from the funky :, it looks better. 08:31:43 -!- onixie [~user@222.92.128.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:32:48 Zeiris: the interactive macroexpander in Slime works like a stepper for macroexpansion 08:33:14 Hm, guess I'll look at learning emacs then. 08:33:37 Yeah it will pay off. Even if you just use it for Common Lisp. 08:35:01 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:35:05 LFE support in Slime next? 08:35:12 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:35:40 Probably not, nikodemus, but at least I'll know how things are done "properly". LFE is a bit immature and unused. 08:36:21 Zeiris: paredit is indispensable (well, very cool) when writing lisp. And an implementation is available in vim (via slimv). 08:36:22 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 08:36:43 LFE? 08:36:46 missing closing parens would explain the "stalls", ie. lisp is waiting for further input 08:37:26 I meant stall in a "I stop getting useful debugging information" - I figure out that there's a problem, but then can't figure out where. :E 08:37:34 I think it's just late. I'll give it a try another night. 08:37:36 cymew [~davour@n128-p80.kthopen.kth.se] has joined #lisp 08:39:10 -!- cymew [~davour@n128-p80.kthopen.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 08:41:45 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:42:16 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 08:44:51 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:46:41 Okay nevermind on trying another night. I found the bug: (fun-clause ((list (list* ...) body)) defined a 3-argument function, I needed an extra set of brackets in there to make it a 1-argument, mappable function. 08:48:46 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:50:22 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:51:44 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:52:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-204.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:55:25 -!- zbeasnyy [~mornfall@ip-89-102-5-122.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:59:11 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@cpc17-aztw23-2-0-cust59.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:59:20 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@cpc17-aztw23-2-0-cust59.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 08:59:20 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 09:02:02 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:43 McMAGIC--Copy [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has joined #lisp 09:06:55 gaidal [~gaidal@113.109.113.217] has joined #lisp 09:07:05 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 09:08:15 silenius [~silenus@p4FC227BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:08 -!- Tau [~tau@189-127-57-135.i-next.psi.br] has left #lisp 09:09:13 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 09:11:43 cymew [~davour@dhcp-221-37.pdc.kth.se] has joined #lisp 09:12:47 *relcomp* tires to define a predicate twice/0 with paiprolog which can be satisfied twice, but it doesn't work. 09:14:50 there's a #prolog relcomp 09:15:29 ## actually 09:15:37 paiprolog is Peter Norvig's Prolog implementation in Lisp. so it may be half on-topic. 09:16:00 i assumed as much 09:16:39 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 09:17:16 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 09:18:15 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:49 but your question wasn't about the implementation 09:20:04 or was it? You might need to do that at the implementation level. 09:20:17 It is an implementation question. 09:20:51 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75795f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:21:24 I restated the question in ##prolog, however. 09:23:51 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:24:18 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 09:24:40 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 09:24:40 alama [~alama@193.137.143.174] has joined #lisp 09:24:51 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:27:34 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 09:27:47 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955BDA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:30:03 Pirx_ [~Pirx@pc-212-51-221-162.p.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 09:36:57 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:37:06 -!- Younder [~john@224.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:42:49 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 10:43:02 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:21 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:45:29 cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-5-144.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:22 -!- cpc264 [~cpc26@66-87-2-228.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:49:12 -!- Younder [~john@224.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:49:32 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.115.33] has joined #lisp 10:50:05 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:34 Crapta [~Ricky@119.224.23.15] has joined #lisp 10:50:39 Hi I have a question 10:50:42 May I ask it? 10:50:47 Younder [~john@224.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:51:29 no 10:51:29 xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.33.152.39] has joined #lisp 10:51:40 I think I'll ask it anyway 10:51:46 But first, is this channel Jew free? 10:52:14 Crapta: go away 10:52:58 No :D 10:53:12 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 10:53:39 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 10:55:50 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 10:55:57 -!- Zhivago has set mode +q Crapta!*@* 10:56:00 Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:56:01 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 10:56:58 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gcltwhunisihgvwe] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:58:17 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:58:34 cpc261 [~cpc26@66-87-4-146.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:15 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:06 -!- Crapta [~Ricky@119.224.23.15] has left #lisp 11:00:53 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-5-144.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:02:32 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-yqdepbuzcykigvgk] has joined #lisp 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[~Pirx@pc26.zsk.p.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 12:52:08 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-myscksyzufzuiing] has joined #lisp 12:53:32 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 12:56:02 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:08 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:56:48 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 12:57:18 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-91-219.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 12:58:16 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-myscksyzufzuiing] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:58:36 Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:58:39 cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-5-200.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:48 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:59:02 -!- Pirx_ [~Pirx@pc26.zsk.p.lodz.pl] has quit [] 12:59:05 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:59:05 alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has joined #lisp 12:59:28 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:43 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:00:27 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 13:00:51 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01:05 -!- cpc264 [~cpc26@66-87-0-89.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:01:56 *splittist* hopes the BvE's of the world don't sap Xach's enthusiasm for his world-changing and much beloved Quicklisp 13:02:10 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:02:40 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BCA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:58 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:04:04 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 13:04:16 hm? 13:04:20 like water off a duck's back 13:04:28 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 13:04:57 Xach thrives on such quasi-trolls. EG, he's a huge fan of Brucio. 13:05:47 if i'm at a left parenthesis, emacs can display the matching right parenthesis; is there a quick way of selecting the region boundd by the current left parenthesis and the matching right parenthesis? 13:05:57 (if not directly in vanilla emacs, in slime) 13:06:19 alama: C-M-SPACE 13:06:33 Xach: ah, thanks 13:06:51 alama: lots of goodness on C-M-... 13:07:14 splittist: this definitely counts as one such piece of goodness 13:07:20 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:22 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:07:42 Repeated C-M-Space's extend the selection. 13:07:54 C-M-K and C-M-Space work outside of slime too. 13:10:26 is there a way to have something similar to C-M-SPACE, with the region excluding the delimiters ? 13:10:42 ie. selecting "foo" in "(foo)" 13:11:35 cpc261 [~cpc26@66-87-4-63.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:16 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 13:13:15 -!- cymew [~davour@n128-p80.kthopen.kth.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:19 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:14:13 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-5-200.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:15:23 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:15:44 don't think so. but it's easy enough to add. 13:15:50 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23:07 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 13:24:29 cpc262 [~cpc26@66-87-0-108.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:06 BrandLeeJones_ [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:26:26 -!- sellout [~Adium@64.134.66.239] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:27:01 -!- 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[~cpc26@66-87-8-252.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:04:18 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 14:05:00 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:05:37 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:05:45 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 14:08:13 sellout: I suspected Xach impersonated brucio, as an exercise in parody. 14:08:31 viscous lies 14:08:54 pjb: are you sure it isn't the other way around? 14:09:22 skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-178-185-68.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:58 now I'm confused! 14:10:07 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:10:15 http://www.kithfan.org/work/transcripts/five/fabio.html should clear it all up 14:10:25 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-91-219.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:10:55 *Xach* tests the latest sbcl commits by building everything under the sun 14:12:41 astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has joined #lisp 14:13:32 -!- dlowe_ [~dlowe@63.115.78.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:13:36 cpc261 [~cpc26@66-87-2-254.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:28 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:15:59 That dialogue reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f_p0CgPeyA 14:16:04 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:21 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-11-179.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:17:16 muhdik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:26 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-102-125.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:20:29 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 14:20:48 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.192] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 14:21:37 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.172.242] has joined #lisp 14:24:00 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-122-20.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 14:24:03 hmm... is there any good Common Lisp CPS tutorial out there? Or CPS at all? 14:24:40 p_l|backup: how about http://failex.blogspot.com/2008/11/understanding-cl-cont-semantics-without.html? 14:24:58 Although it's titled "Understanding cl-cont semantics without thinking about CPS", so maybe not what you're looking for 14:25:10 well, it might help 14:25:46 flip214: Brucio always remembers me of Brice de Nice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTz5wT34tLI&NR=1 14:25:54 cpc262 [~cpc26@66-87-6-169.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:25 p_l|backup: readscheme.org might have some. at least one of the original lambda paper contained a description of it. also AMB in SICP (and anywhere else it's described, On Lisp? PAIP?) 14:27:53 -!- cpc261 [~cpc26@66-87-2-254.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:27:56 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 14:29:11 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:29:20 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:29:20 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:29:30 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ajyumuhcwnayttxq] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:30:36 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:30:39 hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:30:43 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@wsip-70-164-121-172.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:22 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:07 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:19 i love using :around auxiliary methods to do data validation 14:34:20 it makes the main method cleaner 14:35:43 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 14:36:37 TheRealLongshot [~longshot@180.184.33.204] has joined #lisp 14:36:38 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.172.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:37:23 tcr: was call/cc ever directly described in SICP? I know it discusses continuations, but I wonder if it morphed in later editions into description of call/cc as it exists IRL 14:37:44 cpc263 [~cpc26@66-87-4-18.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:41 p_l|backup: it implemented amb using CPS 14:39:12 I guess I'll go back to my 2nd edition copy, then :) 14:39:31 alama: There is a library that uses method-combinations to specify pre- and post-conditions: http://www.gauss.muc.de/tools/dbc/dbc-intro.html 14:39:46 -!- dullard [~user@188-223-137-38.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:14 sellout: cool, thanks 14:40:55 *sellout* used it at one point, but it's been a while. 14:41:04 -!- cpc262 [~cpc26@66-87-6-169.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:41:48 do you have some example uses of it that i could view (e.g., on github)? 14:43:27 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 14:43:58 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pvzvjpbqcyolxgzv] has left #lisp 14:44:40 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:44:52 alama: Hahaha  no idea where I might have something. Definitely pre-github. But the "some silly test cases" link shows how it's used  a bit. 14:45:22 yeah, i see that this code is pretty old 14:46:09 I might try to revive it. I'm still a fan of DbC somewhat. Remnants of my old Eiffel obsession. 14:46:25 i first heard about it in peter seibel's pcl 14:46:37 -!- cpc263 [~cpc26@66-87-4-18.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 14:46:48 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html 14:47:16 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 14:47:55 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 14:50:41 Oh, good, DbC is public domain. That means I can claim it as my own and GPL it. Mwahahaha! 14:51:01 arquebus [~arquebus@201.160.3.219.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 14:51:09 Good move! 14:51:21 sellout: that would be illegal in many countries, btw 14:51:28 (the first part, that is) 14:51:54 p_l|backup: Yeah, not something I'm likely to do, in any case ;) 14:52:21 sellout: perhaps you should to teach PD people that they have to use the GPL to defend themselves. 14:52:31 lol 14:52:57 pjb: Remember, that kind of action is copyright infringement in quite a bit of Europe 14:53:39 sellout doesn't plan to visit europe again 14:53:40 p_l|backup: yes, but the owner of the copyright would have to deny his public domain remitance to to so. 14:53:48 p_l|backup: "the first part" being illegal - you mean the "public domain", as it the law-making currently goes, right? 14:53:49 you mean in the countries that don't accept a public domain rights assignment? 14:54:00 ( p_l|backup ) 14:54:09 Fade: thy accept. There is a different meaning to it, however 14:54:12 Xach: I don't think that would go over very well with the in-laws in Slovakia. 14:55:16 Fade: in Poland, for example, public domain is essentially the same as MIT license. Similar law is in effect in many other "Old World" countries due to copyright laws being incrementally built from a much, much older legal tradition 14:55:42 interesting 14:55:42 most importantly, there's a separation of "financial" and "authorship" right 14:55:49 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:56:35 so for me to use "copyright law" as the name for the polish legal act governing it is a misnomer - the correct, but less understandable name is "authorship law", of which "right to copy" is a part 14:57:14 Yes, in German it's "Urheberrecht", which emphasizes the author's rights, too 14:57:46 sellout: where in slovakia? could be really near to me 14:58:18 most importantly, under it, if I publish something, I'll retain the "authorship" of it no matter what happens. No one can claim it as theirs. However, I can dissolve my claim to financial rights to that work, which is essentially "public domain" (this is what happens once the copyright term ends) 14:58:26 well, nothing in europe up to russia is ever actually 'really far'. 14:58:29 heh 14:58:51 p_l|backup: well, *if* copyright ever ends .... 14:59:01 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:59:02 Fade: true 14:59:08 flip214: Polish law doesn't allow never-ending extension 14:59:22 flip214: and the terms are much shorter than the insane USA ones 14:59:31 flip214: Blatnica, in the Fatras, near Martin. 14:59:39 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:30 sellout: about 4hours per car ... 15:00:35 -!- astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [SeaMonkey 2.0.4/20100402161724]] 15:00:39 flip214: Where are you? 15:01:21 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:02:07 sellout: http://osm.org/go/0Jpg759 15:02:46 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:58 flip214: Oh, yeah. I've made that drive (well, to Wien, anyway). 15:03:03 p_l|backup: how many years do you have? the EU wants to push 95 years AFAIU 15:03:19 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 15:03:19 astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has joined #lisp 15:03:38 sellout: did you like it? The above-1M-people town with the most parks IIRC ;-) 15:03:49 flip214: I recall something around 20 with all possible extensions applied for 15:04:16 or maybe it was 20y without extensions available at all, don't remember exactly 15:04:24 in the 21st century? Gosh, are you lucky .... although that means that linux will get public domain soon ;-) 15:04:48 flip214: Unfortunately, it was only to go to the airport. I haven't gotten to spend any time in Austria yet. 15:05:03 flip214: well, only the original release... :P 15:05:06 Oh, thats sad. Well, better luck next time! 15:07:15 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 15:07:55 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 15:08:02 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has left #lisp 15:09:21 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:10:33 -!- astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:14 Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:11:53 astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has joined #lisp 15:12:53 -!- astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has quit [Client Quit] 15:13:14 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.172.242] has joined #lisp 15:14:51 astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has joined #lisp 15:15:38 how many DESTRUCTURING-BINDs must a common lisp man write before he realizes he needs to organize his data into classes? 15:16:10 pdlogan [~patrick@c-76-27-203-101.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:35 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:18:58 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:10 cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-8-127.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:33 alama: it goes from 0 to +Inf 15:19:40 heh 15:19:48 -!- skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-178-185-68.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:21:47 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:22:38 alama: there's this advise to first define your data structures, then write the code around them 15:22:58 makes sense 15:23:13 Here's the quote: "Show me your [code] and conceal your [data structures], and I shall continue to be mystified. Show me your [data structures], and I won't usually need your [code]; it'll be obvious" 15:24:05 -!- muhdik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:25:05 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:56 muhdik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:57 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA21FC8.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:26:13 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:30 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20110323131629]] 15:27:41 sounds implausible to me 15:27:47 -!- arquebus [~arquebus@201.160.3.219.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:37 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:28:52 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29:07 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:30:27 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 15:30:54 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 15:31:28 mephisto [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:52 well, did work for me 15:32:50 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:32:53 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:33:13 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-qtroerelcnolbfdm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:48 naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has joined #lisp 15:37:26 -!- woudshoo [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:38:06 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:09 alama: defstruct lets you define structs of type list, which will give you the accessors you might want. 15:38:29 and you can work towards abstracting away the fact that they're conses/vectors/etc 15:38:34 sykopomp: nice 15:38:56 once it's sufficiently abstract, you can make the actual object be whatever you want, as long as you change the accessor definitions. 15:39:27 joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has joined #lisp 15:40:24 -!- mephisto [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:51 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:27 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:44:49 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BCA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:44:53 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 15:44:53 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BCA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:16 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:40 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:49:03 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:49:12 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:08 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:51:44 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:52:06 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:56 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-203-181.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:56:52 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 15:56:54 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-203-181.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:03 changing the accessors could be as easy as changing the defstruct :type option ... 15:59:39 flip214: I'm thinking more about when you decide you want to switch to CLOS. 16:01:30 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 16:01:51 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read 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[~sabalaba@67-194-122-20.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:12:43 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-112-241.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:12:43 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has joined #lisp 16:13:25 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-193-241-28.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:15:07 jdz [~jdz@host165-111-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:15:19 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:16:13 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:16:32 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 16:16:53 luis: you might fix cffi-abcl.lisp which got a bit rotten: keyword argument `calling-convention' should be renamed to `convention' (in all of the four places) 16:17:07 -!- splittist [~splittist@201-205.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:17:58 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:18:28 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:43 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:21:00 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082B025.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:12 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 16:21:50 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 16:23:04 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:23:53 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082BCB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:56 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:37 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:35 rurban [~demo@178-191-156-58.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:29:50 -!- jdz [~jdz@host165-111-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:30:34 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@58.33.152.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:30:36 alama: with-accessors and with-slots. 16:30:43 pjb: yeah 16:31:33 alama: the point is that if you're not happy with destructuring-bind, you should write a with- macro, first expanding to destructuring-bind, and if thereafter you need a structure or a class, you can just change this macro to expand to a with-accessors or a with-slots. 16:31:35 pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 16:31:46 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:31:57 pjb: cool suggestion 16:32:02 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:32:37 johanbev [~johanbev@138.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:44 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:12 lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:11 azaq23 [~derivecto@pD9E34BE0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:34:14 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@pD9E34BE0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 16:34:14 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 16:34:39 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 16:35:03 alama: you could generate this macro from a define-entity macro that would expand to a defstruct or a defclass, along with whatever bookkeeping you may need. 16:35:34 ooh, nice idea 16:37:31 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:37:43 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:38:09 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-17-205-117.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:07 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.37] has joined #lisp 16:40:43 -!- Landr [~user@78-23-213-22.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:42:00 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:42:15 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 16:42:33 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:42:47 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 16:43:18 -!- pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:23 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:27 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has joined #lisp 16:43:55 pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 16:44:36 -!- pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:44:48 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:58 pnq [~nick@host-224.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 16:45:55 Is there any research looking into formalizing and quantifying what it means for programs to be modular? 16:46:18 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 16:46:52 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:47:13 I'd think that some amount of interdependence yould get read from call-chains and similar documentation 16:47:18 -!- kae [~b@c-c3cae253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:21 -!- Hermanski [~b@c-c3cae253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:28 freewheelnat [~freewheel@cpc2-pool4-0-0-cust31.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:47:30 But I don't know any tool for quantification. 16:48:48 kaek [~b@c-c3cae253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:48:50 kae [~b@c-c3cae253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:49:01 -!- kaek [~b@c-c3cae253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 16:49:10 Is it legal to specialize a generic function's method on a struct? Works in SBCL, but not sure whether's it's ANSI/portable et al. 16:49:31 -!- freewheelnat [~freewheel@cpc2-pool4-0-0-cust31.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: #linux] 16:50:43 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:50:47 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-207-30.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:51:08 antoszka: it is portable 16:51:11 nikodemus: Thx. 16:51:12 freewheelnat [~freewheel@cpc2-pool4-0-0-cust31.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:20 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-100-74.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:52:23 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-205-196.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:52:58 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:05 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:53:32 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:53:51 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 16:54:08 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:54:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:54:55 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:55:12 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:58:26 lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:51 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:59:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-207-30.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:01:17 snearch [~snearch@f053012201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:23 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-iharlonamopvsodl] has left #lisp 17:01:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:01:42 -!- alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:02:35 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:03:18 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 17:03:44 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:53 -!- freewheelnat [~freewheel@cpc2-pool4-0-0-cust31.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:06:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:06:54 -!- joachifm [~joachim@212.7.195.193] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:08:16 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:09:06 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:10:09 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-205-196.uio.no] has joined #lisp 17:11:41 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:12:07 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:42 Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:14:17 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:14:17 *Xach* undertakes the Great Sacla Loop experiment 17:14:47 Wasn't that a Sar Trek episode? 17:14:49 hrm 17:14:56 s/Sar/Star/ 17:15:49 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:16:48 I don't think so. 17:17:20 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 17:17:25 adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-43.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 17:17:46 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 17:18:11 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 17:19:11 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19:43 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-33-211.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:20:16 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 17:21:00 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:13 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:22:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has left #lisp 17:22:29 araujo [~araujo@190.38.51.34] has joined #lisp 17:22:29 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.51.34] has quit [Changing host] 17:22:29 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:22:39 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:23:01 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:24:13 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:25:39 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:25:58 dmiles [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:27:33 Darn, I was hoping I could use sacla loop as a kind of lint, but it seems like it doesn't accept perfectly valid loop forms 17:28:11 It would be great to shake the dust off of Sacla. It would be a cool resource if maintained a bit. 17:28:21 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:37 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-71-56-149-8.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:31:07 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:31:45 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:32:13 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:33 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-62-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:24 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:34:04 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:34:25 *Xach* wonders if there's another portable conformant cl:loop drop-in replacement somewhere 17:36:18 Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:36:20 -!- c_arenz [~arenz@nat/ibm/x-aucsbyvnssuvotst] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:36:29 didn't beach write one? 17:37:00 beach: did you write one? 17:38:22 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053012201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:40:13 *Xach* stumbles across what must be john foderaro's photo blog 17:41:20 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.192.248] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 17:41:27 Xach: url? 17:41:41 beach's was not complete when he presented it at ELS 17:41:44 When readin gstackoverflow, I ended up thinking about how to implement a function that verifies whether a list is ordered. I came up with this, but I feel that it's not good enough 17:41:44 no code generation 17:41:52 (defun sortedp (list) 17:41:53 (reduce #'(lambda (x y) (when (and x (<= x y)) y)) list)) 17:42:16 Does anyone have a better solution that is as short, but escapes early when it finds a non-ordered entry? 17:42:32 loke: (every #'<= list (cdr list))? 17:42:45 Aaah 17:42:48 Thank you! 17:42:57 I can sleep soundly now. 17:43:17 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:43:22 I never thought about EVERY 17:43:24 http://cogiti.blogspot.com/ 17:43:31 loke: I think of it CONSTANTLY 17:44:03 Xach: well, you're better than me :-) I'm trying to make lisp part of my IDENTITY 17:44:18 Well, I mostly think about ways to use the (... list (rest list)) idea. 17:44:26 every is one of several ways. 17:44:56 It is, indeed, awesome and so obvious when you showed me 17:45:08 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 17:45:12 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:45:15 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:45:26 I've spent a few days solving Google codejam excersises just to get better at Lisp. 17:45:38 gigamonkey: that url was for you 17:46:52 Xach: interesting. That wasn't exactly what I was expecting. 17:46:59 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-207-30.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:47:29 gigamonkey: I could be wrong, but I don't know how many Common Lisp John F's from the bay area there might be. I keep hitting that blog in my daily blog crawl for common lisp content... 17:47:29 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:47:31 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.172.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:48:11 Have you met Foderaro? 17:48:16 Nope. 17:48:25 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-62-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:49:13 Krystof: thanks. it looks like his loop replacement might do the trick. 17:49:29 I hope he did take those photos--because it would serve as yet another reminder that people are never quite what they seem. 17:49:59 Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.172.242] has joined #lisp 17:50:09 I think this clinches it: https://profiles.google.com/jkf385/about 17:52:24 wow they're good 17:52:25 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:54:22 -!- Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.172.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:55:49 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-207-30.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:56:21 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-207-30.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:57:01 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:57:44 cmatei [~cmatei@78.96.101.216] has joined #lisp 18:00:08 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:05 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:02:16 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-103-83.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:43 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:41 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:37 Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.172.242] has joined #lisp 18:07:48 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C3E21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:26 hi gigamonkey 18:10:12 gigamonkey, Writing any new books now Peter 18:10:24 Xach/gigamonkey: haha, yeah, that's jkf. also, these are awesome photos 18:10:46 *antifuchs* subs 18:10:53 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:12:34 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:14:32 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:15:51 schaueho_ [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-178-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:53 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:16:28 Younder: not quite a book but: http://www.codequarterly.com/ 18:17:14 alama [~alama@a79-169-95-248.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:17:31 -!- Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.172.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:17:41 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:18:24 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C3E21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:52 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:29 Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.172.242] has joined #lisp 18:21:01 gigamonkey, so a successor to dr dobbs journal? 18:21:17 -!- Gmind [~Gmind@113.190.172.242] has left #lisp 18:22:06 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C3E21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:41 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:23:01 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:27:22 Younder: several people have made that comparison. 18:27:31 Which worries me a bit since they, of course, folded. 18:27:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.37] has quit [Quit: Offline] 18:29:38 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.172.242] has joined #lisp 18:30:51 My impression of Dr Dobbs was not very good. It seemed to me like they dumped articles from author to page with very little exercise of quality control. 18:31:08 That was strongly reinforced by the publication of Gene Michael Stover's CL articles. 18:32:11 Xach, why your name is on Practical Common Lisp blurb ? :P 18:32:51 Gmind: I didn't have the courage to say nice things anonymously 18:32:56 because he's dead sexy! 18:33:03 no, wait, that wasn't it 18:33:27 perhaps Xach got a nice endorsement deal 18:33:33 nikodemus, =)) 18:33:46 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.37] has joined #lisp 18:34:28 Well, whatever, it's great book :P 18:34:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.48.169.59] has joined #lisp 18:34:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.48.169.59] has quit [Changing host] 18:34:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 18:35:16 Xach: CQ has plans for much higher quality control. 18:35:17 Because it was developed in conjunction with the comp.lang.lisp group news group of witch Xach Bean (Xach) is a member. 18:35:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:36:03 no pun intended ;) 18:36:13 Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:36:13 Unexpected errno 2 <--- now that's a nice error to get trying to start SBCL... 18:36:19 Landr [~user@78-21-55-104.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:36:36 file not found. 18:37:20 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:39:33 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:07 yeah, apparently I somehow managed to get STREAMS in Linux, cause I don't see how it could have tried to open a file while opening a socket 18:41:02 depends on the kind of socket, I guess. 18:41:12 well everything is a file in unix/linux 18:41:42 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.172.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:52 Younder: was 18:42:18 then BSD ported TCP/IP from TOPS-20 18:44:10 Younder: "witch" xach, or "which"? ;-) 18:44:25 looks like a Freud 18:44:36 It is 18:46:15 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:46:40 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 18:48:47 ... yay. SB-BSD-SOCKETS apparently got fried by glibc update 18:49:02 ... or no 18:49:40 phteads are an issue 18:49:49 they aren't 18:49:56 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 18:50:13 they don't relate to files 18:50:31 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: G'night everybody] 18:50:37 -!- hlavaty [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:50:50 what apparently got fried is getprotobyname() 18:51:04 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 18:51:29 never heard of it! 18:51:52 for unknown reasons it was a separate package that somehow got its files deleted 18:52:02 (well, the data for it) 18:52:18 /etc/protocols? 18:52:19 Younder: it allows you to do such things like querying for protocol type by name 18:52:21 stassats: yep 18:52:36 stassats: those are some of the things that I really miss from Solaris :/ 18:54:39 Well it's not in the Posix standard. 18:55:02 Younder: ... you're looking incorrectly, then, because it's part of it 18:55:13 hell, it's part of a more common thing called "BSD socket API" 18:55:36 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.172.242] has joined #lisp 18:56:22 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:30 Perhaps my manuals are getting to old.. 18:56:31 See also: The Base Definitions volume of IEEE Std 1003.1-2001,  <--- from POSIX manual pages, section 3p 18:56:45 Younder: more like they are missing pages 18:57:11 I still have the AT&T interface definition 18:57:19 Probably smeared into illegibility by spilled vodka 18:57:36 endprotoent, getprotobyname, getprotobynumber, getprotoent, setprotoent - network protocol database functions <--- from the POSIX manual 18:57:54 Xach, I am a beer drinker, i NEVER drink vodka 18:58:10 ! 18:58:23 I just drink Bailey =) 18:58:25 Or, alternatively, . 18:58:32 (and Chivas) 18:58:32 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host14-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:58:51 Bronsa [~brace@host14-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:00:56 dlowe_ [~dlowe@63.115.78.49] has joined #lisp 19:01:46 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.172.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:17 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-122-20.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 19:02:54 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.172.242] has joined #lisp 19:04:06 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 19:04:15 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 19:04:15 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:05:23 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:05:41 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:06:09 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 19:07:17 cheers! 19:09:25 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-122-20.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:10:02 Anyone here using ACL2? 19:10:22 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 19:10:38 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:12:36 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:16:21 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 19:18:05 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:18:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:18:26 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:18:37 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:18:39 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:20:49 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-205-196.uio.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:56 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:39 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:28:51 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:42 printed 1757 notes <--- ... I wonder how much of that could be used for actual speed increase :) 19:31:00 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:32:11 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:33 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:36:24 Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:36:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.37] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:37:33 brodo [~brodo@p5B024D86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-42.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:38:22 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@wsip-70-164-121-172.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:39:17 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:40:13 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:41:52 -!- schaueho_ [~schaueho@dslb-088-064-178-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:43:15 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo5.79.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:43:45 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.172.242] has left #lisp 19:44:15 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:44:27 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 19:46:23 Odin-: niet vodke :) 19:49:17 lanthan [~ze@p54B7B891.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:35 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:49:44 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:50:16 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7B891.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:50:16 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@vpnsh0036.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:22 drdo [~user@193.136.100.213] has joined #lisp 19:51:27 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.177] has joined #lisp 19:52:13 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:16 lanthan [~ze@p54B7B891.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:24 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-100-74.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 19:53:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:55:01 archman [~archman@unaffiliated/archman] has joined #lisp 19:55:14 hello 19:55:51 archman: hi! 19:55:56 is http://www.cliki.net/library a complete library list, or is there more than that? also, is there a search interface, like chicken's chickadee 19:56:14 archman: see quicklisp 19:56:23 ok :) 19:57:08 aah, i'm retarded, it was listed in my open buffer... http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries 19:58:24 Quicklisp is pretty good if you are thinking "I know exactly what libraries I want to use and I don't want to spend much time getting and using them." 19:58:28 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:58:36 Not so good if you are wondering "What libraries do what I need?" 19:58:53 I hope to improve that situation in the future. 19:59:15 the web's been pretty well for me, for that 19:59:24 ^working 19:59:28 aaah, quicklisp is an application to get installed 19:59:35 is there some web interface, maybe? 19:59:54 -!- dlowe_ [~dlowe@63.115.78.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:00:00 what i'm trying to find out, is if there's xosd bindings for clisp :) 20:00:01 would like to have some kind of simple search of a description though for QL 20:00:14 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 20:00:21 archman: Quicklisp has a website that lists what projects it provides - http://quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html 20:00:32 e.g. one of my first apropos was for an http client - which did not turn up drakma. 20:00:58 thanks! 20:01:14 pdlogan: I usually come here and ask people for a recommendation 20:02:00 archman: http://cl-user.net can be quite useful 20:02:17 is that still in use? 20:02:33 patagous [970fedeb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.15.237.235] has joined #lisp 20:03:12 tcr: somehow 20:03:14 no xosd :/ 20:03:20 I think it definitely deserves more love 20:03:52 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@wsip-70-164-121-172.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:14 i'm a beginner in chicken scheme, but i'm also looking into cl, since i want to try to implement my small program in it 20:04:27 it uses an xosd library to display notifications 20:04:53 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:05:14 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 20:07:53 Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:09:51 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:17:07 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:19:10 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:19:35 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 20:20:41 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host14-190-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:21:19 archman: you can make an xosd CL library and share it with the world! 20:22:17 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 20:23:08 Xach: that'd be quite a catch, since i'm basically zero with lisp 20:23:32 archman: But Lisp makes you ten times more productive! You're actually at ten times zero! 20:23:41 hahah 20:24:00 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@wsip-70-164-121-172.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:24:35 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-188-108-225-146.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:08 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:04 archman: is there a C library involved? 20:26:10 p_l|backup: yup 20:26:34 archman: thn I suspect a lot of the hesitation comes from "the FFI is scary!" place :D 20:26:45 does anyone know skolem / skolemize in lisp? 20:28:38 MoALTz [~no@92.8.228.71] has joined #lisp 20:29:17 p_l|backup: thanks for the tip :) 20:30:06 archman: wait, I'm making a preliminary binding so it's not scary :D 20:30:16 :) 20:31:53 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.228.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:32:18 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:33:03 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8DCE.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:33:44 damnit hunchentoot, y u no simple? 20:34:19 benny [~benny@i577A70AD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:36:14 archman: http://paste.lisp.org/display/121439 20:36:22 (of course, grab SWIG first) 20:36:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:36:47 Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:37:11 p_l|backup: thanks! 20:37:42 mind you, xosd_display will need rewriting 20:37:48 (SWIG doesn't handle variadic functions) 20:37:50 i don't need cffi? 20:38:00 archman: no, this is your gateway drug to CFFI :) 20:38:07 :) 20:38:18 swig generates code for use with CFFI 20:38:57 i'll need to package cffi for Arch, if i'll need to use it 20:39:06 seems like it's dropped from official repos 20:39:07 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:08 because it doesn't handle variadic functions, the generated binding lacks xosd_display(), but after you play around for a while, you'll stop faring FFI 20:39:22 archman: use Quicklisp 20:39:31 ok 20:39:34 distro packages are notorious for being bad idea :) 20:39:41 yeah 20:39:57 i installed eggs with 'chicken-install', rather than with a package manager 20:40:42 well, with Quicklisp adding CFFI is as simple as typing (ql:quickload 'cffi) in REPL 20:41:18 why can't we have a grand unifying library-manager? :< 20:41:55 (of course once you define an ASDF system for your program, all it takes is loading your system - QL hooks into ASDF to be called when necessary to download lacking deps) 20:42:04 Landr: well, Quicklisp is one for CL... 20:43:33 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:43:49 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:01 so how do you make packages for quicklisp? 20:44:15 ohhhh wait 20:44:26 the links aren't in-page, they link to other pages! 20:44:46 ... odd, first time I ever made that kind of thoughtmistake 20:45:23 zomgbie_ [~jesus@84.119.85.78] has joined #lisp 20:45:25 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@vpnsh0036.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:46:21 Landr: at the moment it's not finished, but there's some code in for dealing with multiple repositories 20:46:31 for now, you can bug Xach to include this or that package :) 20:47:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-207-30.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48:48 *Landr* discovered quicklisp-projects! 20:49:04 *Landr* has a new marker added to his map 20:49:06 -!- adobriyan [~ad@vulture2-nat-43.telecom.by] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:50:20 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-212-185.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:50:23 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:34 quicklisp is xach, andreer and vsedach only? 20:50:39 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@84.119.85.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:51:14 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:15 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Quit: Love is the law, love under Will.] 20:51:17 where do you guys keep *.lisp files? 20:51:34 archman: in directories? 20:51:41 which? 20:51:49 the blue ones 20:51:50 Depends on the file. ;-) 20:51:55 aah 20:52:08 archman: on a hard drive 20:52:10 I typically create a directory for each coherent "thing" which will have a few .lisp files in it. 20:52:26 Including a packages.lisp that contains DEFPACKAGE forms. 20:52:42 -!- naeg [~naeg@194.208.239.170] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 20:52:49 oh, when you code something, you have a *.lisp in the same dir, or something like that? 20:53:03 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:51 in general, a single directory per project seems like a good idea 20:53:53 archman: I'm really not sure what you're asking. 20:54:10 Landr: ok 20:54:24 gigamonkey: i think he means with regards to libraries? like /usr/shared/... 20:54:32 yeah 20:55:10 archman: ah, so I have ~/lisp/ and then other there a ~/lisp/monkeylib/ which is my main collection of libraries I've written. 20:55:23 oh, ok 20:55:30 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:55:34 Each subdirectory of ~/lisp/monkeylib/ is a "separate" thing though it may depend on other libries that are part of monkeylib. 20:55:42 asdf lets you configure where it looks for source files and where it has to store object files 20:55:49 (though it's a bit confusing) 20:55:51 i keep them in ~/lisp/site/ 20:56:01 And of course they may all depend on libraries written by others which are, these days, entirely provided by Quicklisp. 20:56:07 *p_l|backup* has ~/quicklisp and ~/projects/ 20:56:13 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:18 don't have my own code book yet 20:56:32 codebook? o.O 20:56:51 *Landr* imagines a scrapbook of punch cards and printer paper 20:56:56 hehe 20:57:57 at the moment the oldest non-emulatd input device I have is a video terminal... 20:58:20 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:58:31 but I have or had some emulated systems that took batch jobs from punched cards (stored as files on my laptop, by then) 20:58:38 <|3b|> nikodemus: if i want to modify an esrap rule at runtime, should i just add-rule a new esrap:rule instance, or would it be better to modify the existing one in place? 20:59:23 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:12 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 21:02:54 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp3462.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 21:04:12 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-212-185.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:06:19 -!- Tordek [tordek@april-fools/yetanotherhardetest/tordek] has quit [Changing host] 21:06:19 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/session] has joined #lisp 21:08:50 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:10:55 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:10:58 booyaa [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:08 -!- booyaa [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:25 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:39 Znudzon [~IceChat77@dynamic-87-105-136-16.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #lisp 21:12:34 MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.27.196] has joined #lisp 21:12:35 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:13:01 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:13:48 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has joined #lisp 21:14:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:14:15 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-126-167.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:14:31 Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:14:58 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.228.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:15:19 MoALTz [~no@92.8.159.153] has joined #lisp 21:18:11 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.27.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:19:33 -!- archman [~archman@unaffiliated/archman] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:19:55 archman [~archman@unaffiliated/archman] has joined #lisp 21:19:59 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 21:23:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 21:23:25 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3E86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:43 -!- dlila [~dlila@CPE0014d1c9243c-CM001bd71cede2.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:44 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-102-125.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:25:55 -!- astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:14 -!- jabirali [~jabirali@monty.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 21:27:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@81-112.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:30:07 -!- archman [~archman@unaffiliated/archman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:36 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-246.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:31:24 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:32:23 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp_] 21:33:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.48.169.59] has joined #lisp 21:33:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.48.169.59] has quit [Changing host] 21:33:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 21:43:20 em__ [~em@user-0cev0hn.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:43:53 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:08 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C3E21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:48:34 has anyone here worked with Merb/Rails/Sake/Thor (all three from Ruby)? 21:49:25 -!- rurban [~demo@178-191-156-58.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:49:30 merb and rails yes 21:49:36 and even if not, what would be your opinion on a set of command-line scripts/utilities like the ones used by Merb and Rails, except for providing some kind of "common" framework for projects, setting up environment etc. 21:49:37 agumonkey [~user@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:39 hi all 21:49:41 rails uses rake for its task things; merb used thor, I think 21:49:52 what was your average time to read PCL ? 21:49:54 p_l|backup: deep approval. 21:49:54 Mainly targeted at newbies, of course 21:50:03 p_l|backup: target it at yourself! 21:50:10 antifuchs: heh, I *will* 21:50:21 p_l|backup: if you target The Newbie, you won't please anyone, most of all yourself (: 21:50:23 antifuchs: it's just that I plan to write docs and screencasts for newbies ;D 21:50:31 deep approval 21:50:31 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-212-185.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:50:35 go go go go 21:51:09 agumonkey: took me about two years. But I had to wait for it to come out in dribs and drabs. ;-) 21:51:15 agumonkey: I read it over the course of a few months, as gigamonkey published the chapters on the web, mostly (-: 21:51:19 -!- em__ [~em@user-0cev0hn.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 21:51:23 ahahah 21:51:39 em__ [~em@user-0cev0hn.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:46 the issue is simple - how much would it bother lispers if it used another language (I've been thinking about leveraging Ruby with Thor - it would be easier to "get" on machines and is IMHO simpler to get portable than deploying ECL or CLISP image) 21:51:49 oh , are you the author ? 21:51:55 he is (-: 21:52:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:52:26 *p_l|backup* thinks he blitzed through PCL first time, then reread bits and pieces 21:52:36 can i have an autograph then 21:52:47 p_l|backup: as a person who has written a ruby/lisp bridge-y thing, I say use whatever works 21:52:48 *gigamonkey* signs some bits, hands them to agumonkey 21:52:57 I've asked this ealier, but there wasn't a lot of activity here, so I'll try again. Are there any attempts at formalizing what it means for a program to be modular? 21:53:10 minion: tell symbole about asdf 21:53:16 ... wait, that's not the formula 21:53:20 *agumonkey* realizes his nick sounds alike 21:53:21 symbole: I'm sure there are cohesion and coupling metrics. 21:53:46 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:53:59 Not even language specific quantification? 21:54:28 symbole: formalizing? Yes, but it's either a) rather academic b) buzz words around specific technologies 21:54:53 symbole: google 'modularity metrics code' 21:55:00 The first few hits look like what you're looking for. 21:55:45 Thanks. I'll start from there. 21:55:55 p_l|backup: bootstrapping from python or perl doesn't sound too bad 21:56:09 p_l|backup: mostly because I know how bootstrapping from ruby will turn out to be a huge mess ): 21:56:15 antifuchs: heh 21:56:25 antifuchs: any particular experiences? 21:56:27 (distribution packages and mutual incompatibility of ruby releases and all that) 21:56:51 -!- em__ [~em@user-0cev0hn.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: As a wild ass in the desert go I forth to my work] 21:56:57 p_l|backup: basically, the "how to get ruby" method is "get RVM and set that up". that's just like our "get a recent sbcl and get quicklisp" advice (: 21:57:09 I'm sure more ... integrated tools are better there (: 21:57:16 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 21:57:23 well, I was contemplating making a self-contained package from it, that would work on both 1.8 and 1.9 with minimal fuss 21:57:36 though I'll take that into account 21:57:37 perl for example doesn't seem to have that much of a problem with getting set up on a machine (mostly because it's very likely already there) 21:58:03 (and that there have been so very few releases means that whatever's there is likely something decent / stable) 21:58:35 gigamonkey: do you plan to come to ECLM ? 21:58:44 fe[nl]ix: probably not. 21:58:52 Krystof: will yell at me if I use any more jet fuel. 21:58:53 I mean, rubygems work and stuff. it's just a pain as a software package author if you expect /anything/ to work the way you hope it does on a user's system 21:59:05 ltriant [~ltriant@110-174-168-43.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:59:09 ok 21:59:29 I guess I'll try to look into Perl for that, though I personally always end up having issues with it... 21:59:42 it's frustratingly well-integrated (-: 21:59:48 -!- emma_ is now known as em 21:59:56 MAYBE python. maybe. (: 22:00:15 I don't have enough experience with it to comment on shipping python software. it seemed more robust than ruby there 22:00:22 but that's only an outsider's perspective (: 22:00:26 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-125-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:00:27 Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-32-125-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:54 grass being greener on other sides and stuff 22:01:34 raising the question..anyone know skolem / skolemize in lisp? 22:01:50 skolem normal form ? 22:02:42 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:02:56 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-95-248.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 22:03:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:03:33 i've to use skolem function in a project..and apply it to "external" variable.. 22:03:43 astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has joined #lisp 22:04:33 gigamonkey: Krystof could be bribed into agreeing :) 22:04:33 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:56 this is what the text says 22:05:25 fe[nl]ix: yeah. But time and money will probably preclude me making the trip. 22:05:26 "To properly handle the existential variables we introduce two new rewrite rules, those Skolemization" 22:08:05 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-203-181.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:08:26 cmm [~cmm@109.65.203.181] has joined #lisp 22:09:52 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:11:34 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:11:42 slime saves the day 22:12:57 just had an error condition saying "expected , got ?". Inspected the error message, drilled down to the ? character and discovered it's unicode codepoint 1761, which means there's an encoding issue 22:13:11 I would have torn my hair out if that wasn't easy (-: 22:13:22 (slime inspector: worth its weight in gold) 22:13:35 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.103.30] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:14:33 antifuchs: true :) 22:14:44 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:16:52 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:22:11 Good morning everyone! 22:22:16 beach: morning 22:23:52 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-8-127.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:23:56 morning beach 22:24:11 -!- Znudzon [~IceChat77@dynamic-87-105-136-16.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has left #lisp 22:26:34 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@143.93.53.41] has joined #lisp 22:27:27 *agumonkey* checking out, bye allstars 22:27:33 -!- agumonkey [~user@64.158.70-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:31 Landr: quicklisp is me only. 22:29:50 Landr: well, the tracking and lumping-together part, anyway. 22:30:19 cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-8-127.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:33 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-208-181.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:30:58 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #lisp 22:31:18 Xach: what do you think of non-lisp, command line replacement for quickproject? (also with a script to setup CCL/SBCL/CLISP/whatever, together with Quicklisp) 22:31:57 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-208-181.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:32:09 p_l|backup: I don't like the idea of "replacement." 22:32:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-209-42.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:19 why would you need a command line? 22:32:30 p_l|backup: By all means do what you like in whatever way you like! 22:33:05 Xach: well, it solves a very similar problem space, thus the word. :) 22:33:13 Landr: easy & fast to use? 22:33:29 heh 22:33:41 also, I was using some of my experiences with Rails, then Merb 22:33:49 p_l|backup: what exactly would it do then? i mean, usually you want to load your packages/libraries from within lisp already 22:34:06 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 22:34:30 Landr: I'm not talking about replacing quick-*lisp* 22:35:16 O.o 22:36:48 Landr: I'm talking about a tool to bootstrap a lisp environment, set up a sensible filesystem layout for a project, and easily run tasks like "run all tests", "tag this as release", "tell me statistics about code", "build deployment image" (cl-launch?), "run server" (in case of server software, like web apps), "bundle dependencies", etc. 22:37:08 FLix [~Felix@p5795CF0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:40 ah, i see, IDE-commands 22:38:05 i'm sure there's a binding for that in slime ;) 22:38:27 Landr: actually, a lot of it would be annoying to use from SLIME 22:39:01 well, I never made a big project, much less in lisp, so I can't really say 22:39:03 I want to run tests through CI server, for example, etc. 22:39:51 there is something called quickproject for sensible layouts, I think. not sure if it is relevant. 22:39:56 IDEs aren't actually used for this stuff, at least not for bigger projects, and if, then mainly to manage such config 22:40:46 p_l|backup: I'd love some externally-runable tasks like "run tests for this project" and stuff (: 22:40:54 xale: yeah, I referenced it before. Though I have to admit that it didn't fit me, and it lacks (IMHO) in UI/UX compared to having CLI commands like those common in Ruby world 22:41:26 antifuchs: yeah, it's one of the main things I'm going to cover. I need to start testing my code more :) 22:41:48 yay 22:43:09 -!- FLix [~Felix@p5795CF0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: return "tschau!";] 22:43:23 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:45:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-212-185.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:45:36 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-208-181.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:46:24 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-223.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:46:34 antifuchs: I hope to only need a small bit of config so that the script knows what to call to start tests, and probably put some templates :) 22:46:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:46:47 (and yes, all projects would be generated primed for testing) 22:50:21 odd 22:50:57 a few of the accessors in hunchentoot aren't external'd 22:51:01 bug? 22:51:42 Landr: It's not a bug to have accessors named by symbols that aren't exported. 22:51:49 Not in itself. 22:52:05 hmm, so when to export and when not? 22:52:23 <|3b|> export when it is part of the public API, otherwise not 22:52:31 Landr: when you want something to be part of the public API, something that people are expected to call and access freely. 22:52:44 I see 22:53:01 p_l|backup: do it like rails: convention, not configuration (: 22:53:16 policy, not mechanism? ;P 22:53:52 antifuchs: well, the defaults will be enough of a convention... I'm just not willing to cause a certain mess that Rails had for a long time whenever you stepped outside its conventions because they stopped fitting :) 22:54:42 p_l|backup: well, that seems to have changed with 3 (: 22:54:46 anyway, sounds good 22:54:55 antifuchs: Merb code got merged in :> 22:55:18 that, and they made stuff pluggable (finally) (: 22:55:25 antifuchs: well, that's Merb 22:55:34 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 22:55:43 granted 22:56:11 Rails <3 was "magic and ponies, but don't try to leave", Merb was "we're lean, mean, and there's grease everywhere, but look, you can swap *anything*" 22:57:28 -!- muhdik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:57:44 sweet, self-destruct-flag 22:58:42 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:58:48 Landr: I have that in CPU 22:58:57 how does that work though... can classes set up functions to call when a variable is changed? 22:59:31 Landr: you can hook into slot read/write protocol with MOP 23:00:28 Landr: Also, accessor functions are functions ... 23:01:01 Zhivago: i thought they were just macros? 23:01:18 i mean, macros to quickly access a variable, not to activate secondary functions 23:01:27 i mean, you can't have accessors do anything but access 23:01:45 *Landr* should really look further into clos probably 23:01:59 Landr: You are mistaken. 23:02:02 <|3b|> you can define your own functions that are indistinguishable from those defined by defclass 23:02:29 -!- drdo [~user@193.136.100.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:03:08 <|3b|> a CLOS accessor is just a pair of normal methods, specialized on the class 23:03:37 <|3b|> (implementation of struct accessors is unspecified though, they may be macros or functions or whatever) 23:04:23 Well, they can't be macros, iirc. 23:04:23 >The :accessor slot option specifies that an unqualified method is to be defined on the generic function named reader-function-name to read the value of the given slot and that an unqualified method is to be defined on the generic function named (setf reader-function-name) to be used with setf to modify the value of the slot. 23:04:35 <|3b|> so you can add :around methods to the accessor methods, or just put a :reader in the defclass and implement (defmethod (setf foo) ...) yourself, etc 23:06:39 <|3b|> Zhivago: hmm, could be, it says 'it is implementation-dependent whether the ability to write the slot is implemented by a setf function or a setf expander.' so i guess that excludes a separate macro 23:06:44 <|3b|> (for defstruct) 23:07:06 <|3b|> defclass requires generic functions/methods 23:07:17 *Landr* can't find reader-function-name though :\ 23:07:43 <|3b|> in ':accessor foo' 'foo' is reader-function-name 23:07:56 it's the name of a function? 23:07:59 is there some emacs mode that is more tailored to browsing hyperspec than plain w3m? 23:08:12 for example it would be nice for 'u' or something to always go up. 23:08:28 so if it's not further defined foo is implemented by the defclass macro/function/whatever itself? 23:08:30 kind like in info. 23:09:28 <|3b|> Landr: if you have :reader foo on a slot in defclass, defclass defines a method named FOO to read that slot... if you have :accessor foo, it defines method FOO to read that slot, and method (SETF FOO) to set that slot 23:09:44 xale: you could try generating Info from hyperspec 23:09:52 i see, but can you define your own methods? 23:09:56 yeah just thought about that too. 23:10:02 <|3b|> they are normal methods, as if you had written (defmethod foo ...) or (defmethod (setf foo) ...) by hand 23:10:06 <|3b|> right 23:10:08 I think it would be easier to just rebind some keys. 23:10:17 but it doesn't look like that was used here 23:10:23 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:34 unless he made a unique/shadowed implementation of defclass 23:10:41 *|3b|* doesn't guarantee DEFCLASS doesn't do magic optimizations or anything, but they should behave the same as hand-written ones 23:11:31 <|3b|> Landr: can you point to specific code if you are asking about something specific? 23:11:41 ahh, wait 23:11:45 he defines the methods later 23:12:12 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:12:22 of course! the symbols are only resolved at compile time 23:12:59 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-8-127.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:13:01 *Landr* still reads top-to-bottom: if you don't declare/define x before using it, it's an error 23:13:22 <|3b|> more like 'using' doesn't happen until runtime :) 23:13:30 tessier__ [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:36 well "it works out in the end" :P 23:14:02 thanks, another morsel of wisdom gained 23:14:03 <|3b|> it is sort of an important distinction though, since some runtime happens at compile time (for example during macroexpansion) 23:14:21 <|3b|> or some happens at read time (processing reader macros) 23:14:26 landr: The symbols are resolved at read-time. 23:14:36 well, first comes write time, then read time, then macro time, then compile time, then run time? 23:14:49 landr: You need to differentiate between symbols and variables. 23:14:58 oh no not again :( 23:15:23 <|3b|> macroexpansion isn't really a separate 'time', since it happens during evaluation or compilation (or calls to MACROEXPAND) 23:15:46 (defvar x 10) declares a variable named x. 23:16:03 cpc26 [~cpc26@66-87-8-127.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:20 variable is a namespace binding between a name and something else, so it's more of a description about lisp... a symbol is a specific lisp-object 23:16:26 no? 23:16:32 Writing '(x y z) is sufficient to produce the symbol x. 23:17:22 isn't it a cons? 23:18:28 antifuchs: I think I figured a way to deal with Ruby issues, at least as long as I manage to avoid 1.8/1.9 crazies :) 23:18:37 Think about what is in that cons ... 23:19:19 three symbols 23:19:44 Landr: So, to have the symbols they must be produced ... 23:19:52 '(x y z) == (list 'x 'y 'z), right? (though I think the former is a literal 23:19:55 ) 23:20:34 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:20:56 Yes, but that's irrelevant to this. 23:21:06 hmm, ok, so they're symbols 23:21:18 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 23:21:31 but x in (defvar x 10) isn't a symbol, it's a name/variable 23:21:39 bound to a literal 23:21:54 <|3b|> it is a symbol, which names a variable 23:21:57 -!- pdlogan [~patrick@c-76-27-203-101.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:22:05 what? :( 23:22:14 It establishes a variable named with a symbol, with that value, if unbound at that point. 23:22:37 <|3b|> CL is defined in terms of lisp data structures, not in terms of text like most languages 23:22:51 aaargh ;_; again the confusion 23:22:55 <|3b|> so you have the list containing the symbols DEFVAR and X, and the number 10 23:23:26 3b: That is irrelevant. 23:23:45 <|3b|> Zhivago: i think it is relevant to Landr's confusion 23:23:47 What is important is what defvar does to the environment at that point. 23:24:18 <|3b|> (Landr was the one getting confused about names and bindings the other day, right?) 23:24:28 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 23:24:30 and about variables and symbols, yes 23:24:53 i keep getting confused between what is actual lisp and what is a word used to talk about lisp 23:25:35 <|3b|> a SYMBOL is an actual lisp object 23:25:56 and a variable is a symbol bound to a value? 23:26:10 (that is, when they say "variable" they mean "symbol bound to ....") 23:26:24 <|3b|> 'variable' is an abstract concept, not a lisp object 23:26:33 yes, that's what I mean 23:26:37 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-148-179.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:27:04 Landr: When they say "variable" they mean "the binding named by the symbol ..." 23:27:28 Consider (let ((a 10)) ...) <- this establishes a binding named by the symbol a. 23:27:40 named by the symbol? you mean, "bound to the symbol with the name..."? 23:27:50 But using the symbol a won't get you to the value 10. 23:27:52 <|3b|> no, just 'named by' 23:27:57 It's not bound to the symbol. 23:28:05 :( 23:28:12 bindings are only in namespace? 23:28:12 The binding is a name-value pair. 23:28:30 The bindings are in the environment. 23:28:57 so... a symbol has a value-slot, and if there's something in that slot, we call the symbol a variable? 23:29:03 No. 23:29:06 argh 23:29:25 A variable is a name-value pair in the environment. 23:29:31 The name is a symbol. 23:29:38 That's it. 23:29:48 but... symbols have names too 23:29:53 so names have names 23:30:02 *Landr* is suddenly reminded of alice in wonderland 23:30:03 <|3b|> no, symbols have names 23:30:03 Symbols have identities. 23:30:10 but names are symbols 23:30:12 and symbols have names 23:30:28 <|3b|> not all names are symbols 23:30:35 :( i will never understand it 23:30:36 <|3b|> symbol's names are strings for examples 23:30:47 A symbol can be _used_ as a name. 23:30:49 <|3b|> so the subset of names which are symbols, have names, but only due to being symbols 23:30:53 Not all symbols are names. 23:31:01 <|3b|> right, that too 23:31:05 A symbol has an identity -- just like a number does. 23:31:12 Will you call 10 a name? 23:31:34 depends, do you mean "one-zero" or "the value denoted by one-zero" 23:31:46 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 23:31:49 The important thing is that 10 and 10 identify the same number. 23:32:00 Just as X and X identify the same symbol. 23:34:56 a variable is a binding, a binding is between a name and something else, a name is an identifier, an identifier is a symbol 23:35:12 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:35:48 >identifier n. 1. a symbol used to identify or to distinguish names. | >name n., v.t. 1. n. an identifier by which ... 23:36:03 *Landr* is stuck in a recursion with no top or bottom 23:36:14 Self-inflicted brain damage. 23:36:37 -!- tessier__ is now known as tessier_ 23:37:08 There is no recursion there. 23:37:26 You just can't seem to grasp the difference between 'identify' and 'name'. 23:37:50 a name is a property of a symbol, a string 23:37:56 No. 23:38:32 ;_; 23:38:35 That is part of the symbol's identity. 23:38:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:38:55 ok, so let's call that a Sname 23:38:57 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:10 ixtlan [~zeronull@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:39:13 Let's not call it anything, as it is completely irrelevant to variables. 23:39:41 then the other kind of name is an identifier that is bound to something else? 23:39:52 -!- waaaaaargh_ [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d048d16.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 23:40:38 ok, to put it back to earlier: are names actual lisp objects, or are they abstract concepts to talk about lisp? 23:40:46 Hello Lispers! 23:40:46 Stop thinking about the name being bound to something. 23:41:03 You have a name, value pair -- this doesn't mean that the name is affected. 23:41:16 It means that in that environment if you look up name, you can get value. 23:41:21 Landr: names are usually lisp objects. 23:41:41 Just like (cons 'a 'b) doesn't bind b to a -- it makes a separate object that associates those. 23:41:41 Landr: the name of a symbol is obtained by (symbol-name sym). The name of a package by (package-name pack). 23:42:13 Landr: but some things are not first class objects, like variables, so you cannot obtain the name of a variable, because you cannot "have" a variable. 23:42:27 because variables are abstract concepts, right? 23:42:41 Landr: no. Because they're not first class objects. 23:43:06 Landr: in a compiler, there would be a reification of variables, so you would have variable objects, and a function to get their name. 23:43:25 Do the datastructures defined in CL have a corresponding in memory weight, e.g. how much might an 8 elt (unsinged-byte 8) array weigh in terms of raw memory? 23:43:25 mon_key: hi 23:43:47 mon_key: It's not specified. It could take 8 MB, or 8 GB. 23:43:55 mon_key: the standard doesn't define anything about implementation details 23:44:32 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:36 but, in sane implementations it should take 8 bytes for data 23:44:57 so, you have symbols, they are actual objects (structures in memory) with various slots, one of them being their name, which is a string... 23:45:01 OK. I guess i'm looking for some assurances that there might be some correspondence if not exactly 1:1 :) 23:45:12 Landr: correct. 23:45:24 mon_key: the standard gives no assurances. 23:45:32 landr: And the slots are irrelevant to variables. 23:46:03 variables are symbols then? 23:46:04 mon_key: for example, if you write a sequence of eight (unsigned-byte 8) to a file, you could get 64 bits, if you're luck, but also 72 bits (if you're writing to a 9-track tape), or anything else. 23:46:12 Specifically, what might be the difference between a simple-bit-vector vs. a simple-array of ub8's 23:46:29 Landr: no, variables are not first class objects. Symbols are first class objects. They cannot be the same. 23:46:32 landr: That's only relevant to the reader and printer, so that they can maintain symbol identity over textual sources. 23:46:43 mon_key: one holds bits, the other (unsigned-byte 8). 23:46:56 mon_key: aref will give a single bit, or 8 bit, depending. 23:47:14 >If a form is a symbol that is not a symbol macro, then it is the name of a variable, and the value of that variable is returned. There are three kinds of variables: lexical variables, dynamic variables, and constant variables. 23:47:24 Yes. I'm asking w/r/t to the memory footprint :) 23:47:46 mon_key: there shouldn't be any difference 23:47:48 mon_key: You might be interested in upgraded-array-element-type. 23:47:56 in a sane implementation, that is 23:47:59 Landr: no. there could be no variable with that name, so you would get an unbound error. 23:48:16 pjb: i'm only quoting the hyperspec 23:48:19 Landr: what you just quoted is about how symbols are *evaluated* 23:48:23 Not what they *are* 23:48:48 symbols are instances (objects) of the symbol class 23:48:54 Yes. 23:49:18 the symbol class is a class with various slots {pointers}, including but not limited to: value, function, name, etc. 23:49:26 though it's not a standard-class 23:49:48 It could be. 23:50:42 landr: (let ((a 10)) (symbol-value 'a)) <- what does this result in? 23:51:14 then i'm still stuck at "names are identifiers, identifiers are symbols used to identify or to distinguish names" 23:51:20 Zhivago: 10 23:51:23 -!- ixtlan [~zeronull@chello084114039189.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:51:24 Landr: try it. 23:51:26 Landr: Wrong. 23:51:31 is A proclaimed special? 23:51:33 Landr: I told you! 23:51:48 Landr: And the reason you get this wrong is the core problem in your mind. 23:51:48 Zhivago: U-A-E-T is i guess part of the question. CL has to potentially allocate additional space for an array right? So if some array might get transmogrificated then its type spec won't necessarily correspond to its memory footprint IFIUC??? So, my question, is are there any crib-sheets for thinking (however inaccurately) about how CL will allocate for an array? 23:51:49 Not that "try it" is the best way to determine what a language spec specifies. 23:52:23 mon_key: there is a header and data 23:52:25 mon_key: yes. 23:52:29 Zhivago: wait, it's a variable, not a symbol 23:52:35 mon_key: there are slots where the array stores the values. 23:52:53 mon_key: those slots are numbered from 0 up, in row major order. 23:53:06 mon_key: then dimensions are mapped onto this numbering. 23:53:11 It's a variable, it's a symbol, it's a binding ... it's confusing! 23:53:20 so, in some table in memory, there's a connection from the string to the value, "a" -> 10 23:53:27 gigamonkey: it's SuperConfusing! 23:53:33 Landr: not necessarily. 23:53:41 Take (defun foo (x y) (+ x y)) 23:53:47 Landr: a -> 10 23:54:10 Landr: Not the string -- the symbol. 23:54:20 but you just told me it's not a symbol! 23:54:22 aaaargh 23:54:23 When that is compiled it may result in the arguments to foo being stored in registers and the symbols x and y are completely forgotten after the function is compiled. 23:54:27 Landr: Do you speak English? 23:54:33 no :[ 23:54:38 Landr: That might be the problem. 23:54:57 longfin [~longfin@49.30.254.81] has joined #lisp 23:54:58 Landr: are you familir with any other programming languages? 23:55:13 gigamonkey: a few, mainly C-like languages 23:55:30 ... then again what languages aren't C (algol) like, aside from lisp-like ones 23:55:31 Okay. So in C there are no symbols outside of the compiler, right? 23:55:41 yes 23:55:58 Same thing in Lisp, when you're dealing with lexically scoped variables. 23:56:04 However ... 23:56:27 The thing that is fed to a Lisp compiler is a Lisp data structure made up of conses, symbols, numbers, and a few other things. 23:56:28 is xmlrpc service for lisppaste still available these days? has ther been a change to service endpoint? 23:56:39 (let ((a 10) (b 'a)) ... <- a is a variable, 'a is a symbol, b is a variable too? 23:56:41 So in that representation, symbol objects are used to represent the names of variables. 23:56:46 danlentz: i don't think it is 23:57:04 Landr: well, b is the name of a function which Common Lispers wouldn't call a variable 23:57:12 So, I'm probably mistaken in assuming that (make-array 16 :element-type 'bit :initial-contents 0) is occupying something close to 16 bits of memory in some physical memoery address? 23:57:13 Landr: they all are characters 23:57:14 Since we have two name spaces, one for variables, one for functions. 23:57:19 O_O it's a function now? 23:57:25 stassats: that's not helpful. Landr ignore him. 23:57:26 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:57:29 gigamonkey misread that example. 23:57:32 -!- longfin [~longfin@49.30.254.81] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:57:38 stassats: my opinion, no offense intended. 23:57:44 Landr: { object a = make_integer(10); object b=intern("a"); ... } <-- a is a variable, intern("a") returns a symbol, b is a variable too? 23:57:54 In that example you have a variable named a and a variable named b. 23:58:17 (let ((c 10)) (let ((c 20)) ...)) <- Here you have two variables, both named c. 23:58:19 Whoops, Zhivago is right, I thought that was a function coll. 23:58:21 call. 23:58:28 I don't see why you have such trouble with this basic concept. 23:58:39 mon_key: what's does "some physical memory address" mean? 23:58:52 mon_key: it will be aligned to word boundary, and plus header 23:58:53 mon_key: bit = (integer 1) 23:59:21 mon_key: bit = (integer 0 1) ; I mean. 23:59:26 Then the other difference between Lisp and other languages you may be familiar with, is that there are dynamic variables. 23:59:42 For those, there has to be some association, at run time, between the name of the variable (a symbol) and its value. 23:59:50 mon_key: so, on a 64-bit machine it will take 64-bit plus header 23:59:53 pjb: e.g. physical ram/rom etc.