00:00:59 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:38:46 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 01:38:46 01:38:46 -!- names: ccl-logbot rme SeanTAllen sykopomp lifeng jingtao DocOnDev snorble milkpost lemoinem Ginei_Morioka Guest92363 cmm twem2 AntiSpamMeta OliverUv andreer Xach xan__ qsun LiamH mephistophocles Lycurgus DrForr enthymeme clop stepnem beach mpereira elb0w loke Obfuscate` lianj_ fds_ Ralith_ quasisan1 Buganini_ Atomsk ianmcorvidae hyko- azaq23 maravilloso tauntaun c|mell Mococa christoph_debian CrazyEddy prip dRbiG egn antgreen Xantoz seangrov` Bucciarati Fade 01:38:46 -!- names: Onyxyte em benny cfy muhdick bgs100 vert2 sigjuice gffa ilmari akimbo Kovensky arbscht_ zbigniew_ SpitfireWP drdo [df]_ madnificent Khisanth s0ber splittist2 dmiles_afk cesarbp scode sonnym Dodek dcrawford emporas jabirali nefo faulevel Patzy ltriant Borbus crypto_ jsnell_ froggey_ acelent` Legooola1 |3b|` v0|d` churib_ guaqua_ schmx zakwilson_ larva_ deepfire_ wubo kennyd simplechat htierno MoALTz_ pnq realitygrill lnostdal jsoftw dto argiopeweb 01:38:46 -!- names: Hermanski sbahra redline6561 BlankVerse dbelange amb007 Tristam hefner lanthan The_Fellow Spion_ hramrach_ Pepe_ sid3k brodo daniel__ orivej pizzledizzle timor colazero sellout ASau` xinming_ kpreid dfox cpt_nemo npoektop Salamander_ mgr cmatei Fullma sacho tessier insomniaSalt thomas wamble tenawa borism nullman eno kleppari Euthydemus mathrick theBlackDragon kephas setmeaway joe999 borkaman` abeaumont ``Erik pchrist marienz araujo incandenza 01:38:46 -!- names: billstclair pattern Krystof timjstewart Modius rien nu11ptr pjb rahul joast fe[nl]ix katesmith Jasko Adrinael tty234 Odin- ntd`` danlentz peterhil gnooth felipe cnl Hun PuffTheMagic Taggnostr3 peddie myu2 derrida rsynnott qebab chr` slyrus_ Posterdati ec|detached BrianRice pok jamief kanru lonstein aoh oconnore djinni` cataska luis Nshag christop` cods eli algorist_ setheus ozzloy acieroid nuba PissedNumlock strlen rvncerr foom rbancroft Yamazaki-kun 01:38:46 -!- names: process reb tic_ guther tomaw jeekl mon_key bobbysmith007 TDT Quadrescence clog df_aldur rotty cibs antifuchs Tordek dostoyevsky ve shachaf freiksenet Zhivago k9quaint bzzbzz kloeri frodef pp206 Aisling jweiss cipher _2x2l antoszka Deltafire joshe cYmen tvaalen oGMo mtd koollman timchen1` jrockway delYsid huehnts tychoish p_l|backup housel cmbntr ecraven krl fmu nome` kencausey yan_ ineiros ramus albino lisppaste euphidime herbie_ mdavadriansmith rabite 01:38:46 -!- names: minion mornfall hohum krappie__ bfein CallToPower Jabberwockey mal__ specbot thijso johs ejohnson simontwo_ phadthai akkartik adeht yahooooo zfx pkhuong j_king galdor erk derrotebaron a7p 01:40:25 DiaitaDoc [~DiaitaDoc@bas1-ottawa01-1176118706.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:42:22 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:47:09 Hunden [~Hunden@e180099108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:47:34 Hundenn [~Hunden@e180099108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:47:34 -!- DiaitaDoc [~DiaitaDoc@bas1-ottawa01-1176118706.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!] 01:47:41 -!- Hundenn [~Hunden@e180099108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:17 tolstoy [~Keith@c-24-20-143-142.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:32 -!- Hunden [~Hunden@e180099108.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:44 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 02:21:19 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:19 02:21:19 -!- names: ccl-logbot dmiles _3b madsenz Tordek Mococa homie skeptical_p xxxyyy troussan rme SeanTAllen sykopomp lifeng jingtao snorble milkpost lemoinem Ginei_Morioka Guest92363 cmm twem2 AntiSpamMeta OliverUv andreer Xach xan__ qsun mephistophocles Lycurgus DrForr enthymeme clop stepnem beach mpereira elb0w loke Obfuscate` lianj_ fds_ Ralith quasisan1 Buganini_ Atomsk ianmcorvidae hyko- azaq23 maravilloso tauntaun c|mell christoph_debian CrazyEddy prip dRbiG egn 02:21:19 -!- names: antgreen Xantoz Fade seangrov` Onyxyte em Bucciarati benny cfy muhdick vert2 sigjuice zbigniew_ SpitfireWP drdo [df]_ madnificent s0ber splittist2 ilmari akimbo Khisanth Kovensky arbscht_ cesarbp scode sonnym Dodek dcrawford emporas jabirali nefo faulevel Patzy ltriant Borbus crypto_ jsnell_ froggey_ acelent` Legooola1 |3b|` v0|d` churib_ schmx guaqua_ zakwilson_ larva_ deepfire_ wubo simplechat htierno MoALTz_ pnq lnostdal jsoftw argiopeweb Hermanski 02:21:19 -!- names: sbahra redline6561 BlankVerse dbelange amb007 Tristam hefner lanthan The_Fellow Spion_ hramrach_ Pepe_ sid3k brodo daniel__ orivej pizzledizzle timor colazero sellout ASau` xinming_ kpreid dfox cpt_nemo npoektop Salamander_ mgr cmatei Fullma sacho tessier insomniaSalt thomas wamble tenawa borism nullman eno kleppari Euthydemus mathrick theBlackDragon kephas setmeaway joe999 borkaman` abeaumont ``Erik pchrist marienz araujo incandenza billstclair pattern 02:21:19 -!- names: Krystof timjstewart Modius rien nu11ptr pjb rahul joast fe[nl]ix katesmith Jasko Adrinael tty234 Odin- ntd`` danlentz peterhil gnooth felipe cnl Hun PuffTheMagic Taggnostr3 peddie myu2 derrida rsynnott qebab chr` slyrus_ Posterdati ec|detached BrianRice pok jamief kanru lonstein aoh oconnore djinni` cataska luis Nshag christop` cods eli algorist_ a7p derrotebaron erk galdor j_king pkhuong zfx yahooooo adeht akkartik phadthai simontwo_ ejohnson johs 02:21:19 -!- names: thijso specbot mal__ Jabberwockey CallToPower bfein krappie__ hohum mornfall minion rabite mdavadriansmith herbie_ euphidime lisppaste albino ramus ineiros yan_ kencausey nome` fmu krl ecraven cmbntr housel p_l|backup tychoish huehnts delYsid jrockway timchen1` koollman mtd oGMo tvaalen cYmen joshe Deltafire setheus ozzloy acieroid nuba PissedNumlock strlen rvncerr foom rbancroft Yamazaki-kun process reb tic_ guther tomaw jeekl mon_key bobbysmith007 TDT 02:21:19 -!- names: Quadrescence clog df_aldur rotty cibs antifuchs dostoyevsky ve shachaf freiksenet Zhivago k9quaint bzzbzz kloeri frodef pp206 Aisling jweiss cipher _2x2l antoszka 02:21:21 p_l|backup, yes. 02:22:39 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@75-175-89-124.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:22:54 vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.39.187.245] has joined #lisp 02:23:59 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:24:04 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:24:18 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 02:24:23 aoh_ [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 02:24:42 In loop's for, are the variables destructively modified on each iteration? 02:24:43 kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-218-77.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:24:56 k9quaint_ [~quaint@c-98-207-104-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:58 DrForr_ [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:12 -!- hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:25:13 madsenz: I don't think that's specified. 02:25:13 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:32 -!- SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: SeanTAllen] 02:27:02 is there something better than (first (last list)) to get the last element in a list ? 02:27:15 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:15 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:16 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:16 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-168.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:16 kloeri_ [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 02:27:16 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:16 -!- k9quaint [~quaint@c-98-207-104-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:16 -!- pp206 [pierre@sd-6391.dedibox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:17 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:17 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:18 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:28:10 @pkhuong thanks! I have only peeked the impl in SBCL. 02:28:59 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 02:29:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:29:19 kennyd: alexandria has last-car. 02:29:30 -!- maravilloso [~maury@stu233-14.bard.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:30:03 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 02:31:13 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-136-2-227.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 02:31:51 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:53 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Ping timeout: 612 seconds] 02:32:55 pp206 [pierre@sd-6391.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 02:33:29 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-218-77.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:34:35 concave [~concave@c-24-118-48-38.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:39 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:05 -!- 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[~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:06:48 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:08:40 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 03:09:27 xinming [~hyy@115.221.8.10] has joined #lisp 03:12:11 Indeed! 03:13:07 SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:14 -!- SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:14:27 (let ((symbol (gensym)) (push args ))) 03:15:15 sorry, args and symb should swap positions, I'm trying to push symbol to args 03:15:57 kennyd: do you want (let ((symbol (gensym))) `(push ,symbol args) ...)? 03:16:14 kennyd: Also, http://paste.lisp.org/ might be handy. 03:16:14 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:16:45 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:18:40 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 03:19:41 hsrt [maln@78-0-194-140.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 03:21:45 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-61-151.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:24:03 -!- hsrt [maln@78-0-194-140.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:24:24 Phooodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:13 kencausey: (push symbol args) as usual. 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What are the pros and cons of restarts? 03:54:58 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:55:01 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-174-213.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:08 m1ndvirus: What kind of a question is that? 04:00:37 beach, most other languages do not have restarts. Why does Lisp use them rather than 'traditional' exception handling? 04:02:29 m1ndvirus: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html 04:02:49 It is a very good description of the Lisp condition system. 04:18:30 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 04:18:30 04:18:30 -!- names: ccl-logbot djinni` borism AntiSpamMeta arbscht a7p derrotebaron erk galdor j_king pkhuong zfx yahooooo adeht akkartik phadthai simontwo_ ejohnson johs thijso specbot mal__ Jabberwockey CallToPower bfein krappie__ hohum mornfall minion rabite mdavadriansmith herbie_ euphidime lisppaste albino ramus ineiros yan_ kencausey nome` fmu krl ecraven cmbntr housel p_l|backup tychoish huehnts delYsid shachaf ve dostoyevsky antifuchs cibs rotty df_aldur clog tomaw 04:18:30 -!- names: guther tic_ reb process Yamazaki-kun rbancroft foom rvncerr strlen PissedNumlock nuba acieroid ozzloy setheus algorist_ eli cods Nshag luis cataska oconnore lonstein kanru jamief pok BrianRice ec|detached Posterdati chr` qebab rsynnott myu2 peddie Hun cnl felipe peterhil ntd`` katesmith joast rien Modius timjstewart Krystof incandenza araujo pchrist ``Erik abeaumont joe999 setmeaway kephas theBlackDragon mathrick Euthydemus kleppari nullman tenawa wamble 04:18:30 -!- names: thomas tessier sacho Fullma cmatei Salamander_ cpt_nemo dfox sellout timor orivej daniel__ brodo sid3k Pepe_ Spion_ Tristam dbelange BlankVerse redline6561 sbahra Hermanski argiopeweb lnostdal simplechat wubo zakwilson_ schmx guaqua_ churib_ v0|d` |3b|` jsnell_ crypto_ Borbus ltriant Patzy faulevel jabirali dcrawford Dodek sonnym scode splittist2 s0ber Khisanth madnificent [df]_ SpitfireWP zbigniew_ akimbo ilmari vert2 em Onyxyte antgreen egn dRbiG 04:18:30 -!- names: christoph_debian c|mell Atomsk Ralith fds_ lianj_ Obfuscate elb0w mpereira beach stepnem clop mephistophocles qsun xan__ andreer OliverUv twem2 cmm Guest92363 Ginei_Morioka lemoinem milkpost snorble jingtao sykopomp Tordek vilsonvieira aoh_ k9quaint_ DrForr_ kloeri_ homie pp206 bzzbzz mydik hyko joshe emporas_ quasisane The_Fellow prip pnq dto Kovensky tvaalen oGMo tty234 cYmen koollman insomniaSalt jrockway Deltafire timchen1` lanthan slyrus mtd 04:18:30 -!- names: borkaman` mgr colazero larva eno xinming Phooodus ianmcorvidae bobbysmith0071 seangrov` gnooth_ TDT` Quadrescence Faed PuffTheMagic danlentz_ Taggnostr2 cfy loke deleuze _3b azaq23 tauntaun billstclair Jasko freiksenet jeekl hramrach_ Zhivago m1ndvirus Mococa Bucciarati_ _2x2l_ Xantoz_ Xach ragnul MoALTz__ cipher_ kpreid Buganini Aisling_ lifeng rme madsenz1 sigjuice jweiss nefo froggey_ acelent` Legooola1 fe[nl]ix Adrinael christop` antoszka 04:19:07 Think of a signal/restart mechanism as being like fork/exec vs. spawn. 04:20:19 skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-180-185-4.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:11 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.250.108] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:21:44 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.250.108] has joined #lisp 04:21:56 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@92.8.154.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:24:15 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA222DD.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:25:13 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:26:08 beach, so basically it's like an employee asking his boss what to do, given predefined routines. 04:29:03 m1ndvirus: Right, something like that. 04:29:43 beach, what exactly is an employee or boss? 04:29:54 Just functions? 04:30:56 ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has joined #lisp 04:31:08 -!- ilynva [~energetik@mail.kgtei.ru] has left #lisp 04:33:49 Any code really. 04:34:08 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-89-124.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:45 The employee, i.e., low-level code, signals conditions and establishes restarts. The boss, i.e., high-level code handles conditions and invokes restarts or unwinds the stack. 04:35:45 -!- skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-180-185-4.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:36:54 rvirding [~chatzilla@201.144.245.55] has joined #lisp 04:39:35 Gotcha. 04:39:51 So it's a lot like regular old exception handling. 04:40:41 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:45:45 It's like a signal handler that calls longjmp, in C terms. 04:45:57 Only less dangerous. 04:46:17 nostoi [~nostoi@43.Red-79-151-254.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:32 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@43.Red-79-151-254.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:56:18 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:03:27 deepfire_ [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 05:07:51 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:40 -!- thomas 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has joined #lisp 06:52:46 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-190.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:56:05 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:03:21 amb007 [~a_bakic@86.68.4.7] has joined #lisp 07:05:11 grr [~sadf@76.73.16.26] has joined #lisp 07:05:57 hello. is it possible to reassign a function? (setf #'function ...) doesn't work unfortunately 07:06:06 ASau [~user@95-24-140-205.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:06:37 leo2007 [~leo@221.219.113.27] has joined #lisp 07:07:36 just use defun again? 07:08:04 and perhaps (setf (function 'name) ...) 07:08:07 flip214 I want to wrap it in lambda and reassign it. not sure I could do this with defun? 07:08:19 minion: function 07:08:20 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``function''. 07:08:28 minion: funcval 07:08:29 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``funcval''. 07:08:33 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:08:51 <[df]_> grr: symbol-function? 07:09:12 minion: symbol-function 07:09:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``symbol-function''. 07:09:46 thanks symbol-function did it 07:09:50 grr: (setf (symbol-function 'name) ..) should work. 07:09:57 yeah it did 07:09:59 minion: format 07:09:59 format: FORMAT is Common Lisp's function for creating formatted text output. http://www.cliki.net/format 07:10:02 hmmm 07:11:11 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-110-153.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:11:24 clhs format 07:11:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 07:13:34 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:14:16 clhs symbol-function 07:14:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_1.htm 07:14:50 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:14:59 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-56-222.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:15:05 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 07:15:12 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 07:15:12 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 07:18:09 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 07:18:52 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-190.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:20:14 -!- madsenz1 [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:23:16 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 07:23:51 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:30 relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 07:25:47 -!- kloeri_ is now known as kloeri 07:27:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:27:35 -!- froggey_ is now known as froggey 07:28:40 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:10 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@123.16.96.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:30:46 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-104-222.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:31:05 alama [~alama@212.33.88.142] has joined #lisp 07:31:35 Gmind [~Nevermind@123.16.96.53] has joined #lisp 07:32:54 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:33:23 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:31 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has left #lisp 07:35:22 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@123.16.96.53] has quit [Client Quit] 07:38:01 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Quit: jeekl] 07:39:25 jeekl [~crz@li272-11.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:25 -!- jeekl [~crz@li272-11.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:39:25 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 07:39:55 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-hwlplycysxtmxlro] has joined #lisp 07:39:58 -!- jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has quit [Client Quit] 07:40:23 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:05 jeekl [~crz@li272-11.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:05 -!- jeekl [~crz@li272-11.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:41:05 jeekl [~crz@unaffiliated/jeekl] has joined #lisp 07:41:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42:33 rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has joined #lisp 07:43:09 MoALTz [~no@92.18.66.27] has joined #lisp 07:44:09 xxxyyy [~xyxu@116.237.40.202] has joined #lisp 07:44:42 splittist [~splittist@86-110.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:46:27 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:47:09 yo 07:49:59 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:51:40 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 07:53:00 (apply 'funcall (first ,x) (append (rest ,x) (list ',func))) <- any nicer way to write this? 07:54:36 (apply (first ,x) ...) ? 07:55:43 lol indeed. how about the rest? 07:55:57 -!- lanthan_ [~ze@p54B7D00F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:59:07 well, since only the X-es are part of the macro expansion, I don't think so. 07:59:25 the rest is part of the execution, it seems. 07:59:36 Unless (first ,x) can return (setf something), `(,(first x) ,@(rest ,x) ,func) ; shoul dod. 07:59:50 Even: `(,@x ,func) ; shoul dod. 08:00:03 s/l dod/ld do/ 08:00:04 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-201-222.uio.no] has joined #lisp 08:00:15 youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:16 pjb: that expands (rest x) at macro expansion time. 08:00:25 pjb: that's different from (rest ,x) 08:00:41 right. 08:00:41 yes. and it won't work in this case, I have (if (listp ,x) right above it. 08:00:42 grr: is X a constant list of symbols? 08:01:25 grr: can that if be moved to macro expansion time too? 08:01:45 because in that case, it would be possible. 08:01:49 x is either symbol or (symbol argument) 08:01:50 Ie. is X an expression that will return the function call? 08:01:57 (improbable, when writing a macro). 08:02:29 And func? 08:02:34 (improbable 'when writing a macro) 08:02:41 `(,@(if (symbolp x) (list x) x) ,func) 08:02:52 cadaaaddddaddadr 08:03:09 ehu yeah I suppose if could be moved to macro expansion time 08:03:26 grr: `(,@(if (symbolp x) (list x) x) ,func) 08:04:23 seelenquell [~kvirc@212.63.70.34] has joined #lisp 08:05:27 algorist [~quassel@host131-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:05:49 -!- algorist_ [~quassel@host156-231-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:05:58 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.239.166] has quit [Quit: be back later] 08:06:03 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host156-231-dynamic.2-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:06:07 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.239.166] has joined #lisp 08:06:24 well I can't seem to move entire if to macro expansion code. let me paste the code 08:09:40 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@116.237.40.202] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:10:41 grr pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/121139 08:11:31 -!- youguy [~youguy@11.Red-193-152-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 08:12:15 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:12:45 any way to make it prettier? also, do I need gensym for x that's used in loop? 08:13:32 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-146-89.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:44 tessier_ [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:08 grr: First, with the parameters, wouldn't it be better to write something like: (defmacro decorate ((&rest decorators) (thing func) &body body) ... `(progn (,thing ,func) ,@body ...)) 08:16:15 tty234_ [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-timhckrsrctrdsil] has joined #lisp 08:16:20 pjb I'm using it like this: (decorate (decorator) (defun function ...) (defunf function2)) 08:16:21 prip_ [~foo@host35-123-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:16:27 mpereira_ [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:28 Then, do you really need to process the decorators at run time? How do you call it? 08:16:36 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 08:16:36 actually for now it just works with first function 08:16:54 The only issue might be if x collided with a special variable. 08:16:54 deepfire__ [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 08:16:56 Ralith_ [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:03 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-142-168.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:17:16 timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 08:17:30 But what if (second (first body)) were a function generating expression? 08:17:35 redline6` [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:55 As you have it, you are using it as a global function name -- bypassing any local redefinition. 08:18:05 atakor [~user@adsl-75-53-122-123.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:10 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:18 zakwilson [~quassel@chat.qniformchat.com] has joined #lisp 08:18:23 Oh, I've misread that entirely. 08:18:25 beach` [~user@116.118.5.177] has joined #lisp 08:18:34 danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:18:34 grr: So we have: (defmacro decorate ((&rest decorators) &body defuns) ... `(progn ,@defuns ...)) 08:18:40 wubo` [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:47 snafuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 08:19:00 yes 08:19:10 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 08:19:13 vlevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 08:19:25 Since you don't change any of those defuns, you can implement decorate as a function. 08:19:56 how do i reassign function passed by argument? 08:20:03 to a function 08:20:14 ilmari_ [ilmari@knuth.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 08:20:27 shachaf_ [~shachaf@208.69.183.87] has joined #lisp 08:20:34 cibs_ [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 08:20:40 k9quaint__ [~quaint@c-98-207-104-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:47 (defun decorate (decorators &rest function-names) ...) (decorate (list 'decorator) (defun a ...) (defun b ...)) 08:21:06 You don't pass functions, but function-names, ie. symbols. 08:21:13 rotty_ [~rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:22 -!- shachaf [~shachaf@208.69.183.87] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:21:27 or you can write: (defun a ...) (defun b ...) ... (decorate (list 'decorator) 'a 'b ...) 08:21:29 -!- shachaf_ is now known as shachaf 08:21:33 ah 08:21:40 ohih0wru [~andrei@87.226.100.170] has joined #lisp 08:21:43 dostoyev1ky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 08:22:00 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:22:13 Or with just two lists to (defun decorate (decorators function-names) ...) 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I could just wrap them all in a one on more decorators 08:24:06 brodo [~brodo@p5B022455.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:11 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:24:22 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-klifzupfbluuefng] has joined #lisp 08:24:53 easyE [zWGAjQT4lR@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 08:25:18 grr: defun return the function-name, so you can pass it as argument, as above. 08:25:34 (decorate '(decorator) (defun a ...) (defun b ...)) 08:25:41 right didn't think of that 08:26:12 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has joined #lisp 08:26:16 Younder [~john@224.13.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 08:26:29 However, in that case you might want to define decorate as a macro to expand to an eval-when form to decorate the functions at the right time. 08:26:37 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 08:26:48 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-46-98-23.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:52 (and possibly to preserve toplevelness of the defuns, I guess). 08:27:07 pjb eval-when expands before a macro 08:27:33 A macro may expand to an eval-when form too. 08:28:06 You would need a reader macro I think 08:28:26 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:28:27 The point is when you want the decorators and the functions to be defined, and when the decorators (and the setf symbol-function) must be called. 08:28:41 Younder: No, there's no need for a reader macro here. 08:28:48 Well talk is cheap, let's find out.. 08:28:57 df_aldur [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 08:29:04 grr: with a function, (decorate ... (defun ...)) the defun is executed at execution time :-( 08:29:18 -!- aoh_ is now known as aoh 08:29:44 #. ... 08:29:47 andreer [andreer@flode.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 08:30:17 bbl 08:31:22 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:20 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:32:41 sacho [~sacho@87-126-50-194.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 08:33:24 kennyd [~maln@93-138-65-192.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:33:27 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 08:33:30 elb0w [~gtsafas@38.112.182.36] has joined #lisp 08:33:39 ok, at least i didn't waste my time writing it as a macro 08:34:16 (eval-when (:compile :execute :load) (defvar *enum* (list one 1 two 2))) ... #.(getf *enum* one) something like that 08:34:56 -!- rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:34:57 grr what exactly does that macrodo? 08:36:14 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B022455.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 08:36:16 It's a enumerated type alla C's enum. It's expands at compile time. 08:36:19 rexim [~rexim@91.204.184.177] has joined #lisp 08:36:25 kennyd decorates a function, wraps it inside another function. basically same thing that python decorators do 08:36:25 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-0-92.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:35 grr pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/121140 08:37:37 You can easily do with the same syntax @foo using reader-macros. In Lisp what you usually do instead though is to have a with-foo macro and wrap the functions body into that 08:38:45 tcr1 yeah i'll try to do it like that for fun. but I kind of prefer it like this, as I can (or will be able to once i improve the macro) decorate several functions at once without having to repeat decorators names 08:41:04 One problem with that is that M-. might not work as good 08:41:20 Not sure if I fixed that in sbcl - it has been a issue and might still be 08:41:53 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 08:42:21 you mean you could have @decorator (defun func ... ) syntax? 08:42:37 I mean that - he wants (decorate (defun foo ) (defun bar ...)) 08:42:54 it's possible though? 08:42:58 sure 08:43:11 amazing :P 08:43:44 The wrap-body-in-with-foo way has the advantage that it works despite whatever toplevel defining macro you're using, e.g. it will work with deffoo as well as defun 08:43:48 grr: well, it's hairy if you want to allow both defuns and other run-time expressions for function-names. So we'll accept only defun forms. 08:44:10 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:40 yeah that is fine 08:47:14 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7563b8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:45 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 08:48:17 JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has joined #lisp 08:51:12 pjb annotated #121140 "decorate" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/121140#1 08:51:24 grr: here's my solution. 08:52:14 (decorate (decorator1 (decorator2 1 2 3)) 'hello 'bye) too, since (quote hello) and (defun hello ...) both have the function name in the second position. 08:53:45 nice thanks, let me try to process all that 08:54:20 how much more work would it be to implement @ syntax? 08:54:22 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:54:33 kennyd: this is not python. We prefer parentheses. 08:54:58 kennyd: (otherwise, reader macros are just as simple as any other lisp code). 08:54:59 hehe i know, im just curious 08:55:56 You need to define a nice syntax first. For example: @decorate (defun a () ...) (defun a () ...) @with decorate1 (decorate2 1 2 3) @end 08:55:57 i can see how parenthesis are nice here though, you can wrap 20 functions at once while in python you'd have to repeat decorator 20 times 08:55:58 meingbg [~meingbg@c-5ee3e055.85-2-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:56:15 With reader macros you can have any syntax you want. For that matter is loop Lisp syntax? (This difference of opinion seems to border on religion in some people.) 08:57:05 the point is that there's no syntax in lisp, since lisp sources are lisp objects. (don't mind the glossary). 08:57:30 read and print define a deserialization/serialisation, nothing else, and the reader macro and hooks into the deserializer. 08:57:36 Well if you don't like loop.. And many people don't.. There is the Iterate and series package. 08:57:42 s/macro and/macros are 08:58:43 true, eventually you get reduced to a (function parameter ..) form. 08:59:39 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.239.166] has quit [Quit: be back later] 08:59:48 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.239.166] has joined #lisp 09:00:11 like loop's infix syntax works because macro's don't evaluate arguments.. 09:00:39 You can always define a function taking "keyword" arguments in any language. 09:01:04 at runtime a multiple-value-bind can accomplish the same 09:01:13 doSomething("for","i","from",42,"call",doSomethingElse,"with","i"); 09:01:21 in C, for example. 09:01:36 loop("for","i","from",42,"call",doSomethingElse,"with","i"); 09:02:08 Interpreter patterns, OO-based DSL, etc. 09:02:58 loop().for("i").from(42).call(doSomething,"i"); 09:03:59 Of course, it's easier if you have a "symbol" data type, instead of clobbering perfectly good strings, like in Ruby. But you can always Greenspun yours: loop().for("i").from(42).call(doSomething,var("i")); 09:04:26 s/multiple-value-bind/destructing-bind/ duh! 09:04:54 destructuring 09:04:54 Younder: see: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html#intelib 09:05:11 pholasek [~pholasek_@2001:67c:1220:c1b0:21e:37ff:fecb:baa0] has joined #lisp 09:05:43 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 09:08:28 Well, it depends on if you have variadic functions, although I guess you could pass a list. 09:09:12 pjb: If your strings are immutable, then they're symbols in the sense that numbers are. 09:09:47 Symbols are essentially immutable strings with a namespace, in CL. 09:10:26 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:10:49 _Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 09:12:28 -!- [df]_ [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:12:28 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:12:29 -!- _Dodek is now 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ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-208-51.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:16:50 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 10:17:00 danieljonessssss [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:17:43 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:33 jrockway_ [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 10:19:23 *tcr* hates that :test nil does not default to EQL 10:19:46 larva_ [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 10:19:48 Yes. That should be the default. 10:19:52 [m1ndvirus] []@76-221-155-125.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:52 -!- [m1ndvirus] []@76-221-155-125.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 10:19:52 [m1ndvirus] []@unaffiliated/mindvirus] has joined #lisp 10:19:57 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 10:19:58 e-user1 [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-orcnltkslusfxjun] has joined #lisp 10:20:24 -!- danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:24 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:24 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:20:24 -!- Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:24 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-klifzupfbluuefng] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:24 -!- m1ndvirus []@unaffiliated/mindvirus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:24 Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:20:24 -!- tessier_ [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:25 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:25 -!- larva [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:25 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 10:20:37 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:20:47 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:20:54 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 10:21:19 *JuanDaugherty* has been getting into scheme a bit and it is certainly a complementary approach to CL. 10:21:40 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-194.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:21:54 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:56 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.111] has joined #lisp 10:22:44 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 10:24:54 tcr: I never had any motivation to pass nil to :test parameters. What's your problem? 10:26:02 (defun f (x y &rest args &key (test (function eql))) (apply (function find) x y args)) 10:26:03 (defun find-wrapper (foo &key test) (find foo :test test)) 10:26:26 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-194.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 10:26:30 pjb: that assumes that you don't want to modify any paramateres 10:26:55 stassats: notice the initial value. Even if you use directly test, you don't have nil bound to it, but (function eql), by default. 10:26:57 It makes it easier to compose things. 10:27:44 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 10:28:03 stassats, that is truly lousy advice.. 10:28:15 pjb: your quirky way to use (function eql) instead of #' doesn't make it easy to notice 10:28:44 (pprint '(defun f (x y &rest args &key (test (function eql))) (apply (function find) x y 10:28:44 args))) ;-) 10:29:28 -!- timchen1` [tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:29:28 df_ [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:29:29 timchen1a [tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 10:29:41 clog [nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 10:30:00 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:30:02 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:30:14 -!- Deltafire [~chris@82-71-44-155.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:30:36 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joined #lisp 11:38:03 Gmind [~Nevermind@123.16.96.53] has joined #lisp 11:38:10 sacho [~sacho@87-126-50-194.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 11:38:13 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@web30.webfaction.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:38:14 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:40 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:46 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 11:39:25 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-50-194.btc-net.bg] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:40:07 sacho [~sacho@87-126-50-194.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 11:41:23 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 11:42:11 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:43:34 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@adsl-65-160-240.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:46:32 hi guys,when i execute following codes:(progn (setf test (list)) (setf test2 (list test)) (push 'a (car test2))), i want the variable test could be '(a),but it's nil,which is wrong? 11:46:49 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:47:38 jintao: Do you understand what pass-by-value means? 11:48:40 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:53 so how to pass-by-reference? 11:49:07 You cannot pass by reference i nCL. 11:49:21 In CL you pass object references by value. 11:50:38 You can capture bindings in a lexical closure, though. 11:51:03 e.g., (let ((a 10)) (foo (lambda (v) (setf a v))) a) 11:52:36 Zhivago: thanks,i think i got the way doing it. 11:52:45 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:20 milkpost [~milkpost@web30.webfaction.com] has joined #lisp 11:53:36 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:53:46 What problem are you trying to solve? 11:54:23 Zhivago: i have to leave for 20+ minutes,see you later. 11:55:10 Ok. 11:57:09 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:58:11 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7563b8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58:39 astoon [~chatzilla@nat121-249-205-109.tvoe.tv] has joined #lisp 11:59:14 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:02:43 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:03:11 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.203.181] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:03:33 cmm [~cmm@109.65.203.181] has joined #lisp 12:03:59 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:19 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.203.181] has quit [Client Quit] 12:06:07 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@123.16.96.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:07:28 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:32 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 12:21:23 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:22:42 Zhivago: i want to scan a list and build a tree from it. 12:23:39 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 12:26:47 rhial0 [4a6fc587@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.111.197.135] has joined #lisp 12:27:05 Shouldn't involve any mutation, then. 12:27:20 You might want to start with a constructive recursive approach. 12:28:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:30:48 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:25 something like (let ((result (list))) (parse-and-fill-the-tree result)) 12:32:01 No. Something like (let ((result (parse-and-build-the-tree list))) ...) 12:32:08 jingtao: no, this is wrong. Just: (parse-and-fill-the-tree list) 12:32:32 jingtao: modifying trees is really very hard. 12:34:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:10 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:39:40 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.170.164] has joined #lisp 12:40:24 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:34 is there code for a unix find command clone in common lisp anywhere? 12:41:14 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:42:11 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@125-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:43:14 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.82] has joined #lisp 12:43:21 rhial: at least in perl its best practice to use tools for their purpose; so, how about just using the find command? 12:43:30 rme_ [~rme@pool-70-105-91-47.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:52 That will be optimized for your system, too (link count in directories, symlink behaviour, etc) 12:44:00 -!- rme [rme@clozure-B7DF0875.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 12:44:01 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 12:44:17 If you're sure about having gnu find you should use -print0, btw 12:45:19 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-118-12.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:45:19 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 12:45:22 rhial0: (remove-if-not filter (directory "/**/*.*")) 12:45:31 just joking, it wouldn't be too efficient ;-) 12:45:35 rhial0: exactly like find or just in spirit? iolib's WALK-DIRECTORY function does large parts of the work; some assembly would be required to actually simulate find options. 12:47:13 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:20 hm 12:47:41 Always best to start by thinking of what actual problem you're trying to solve. 12:47:42 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:48:04 I recently did a custom find in tcl and a vmstat a little nicer, but maybe I am wasting my time 12:48:40 Well, what actual problem do you want to solve? :) 12:48:56 well my core problem is I am not financially independant, I am a ignornat programmer, and I like free operating systems 12:49:12 I see bad stuff and am confident i could do better with a little more know how 12:49:32 getting customers sucks 12:49:51 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:50:56 That doesn't sound like an actual problem. 12:51:41 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:53:32 well th eproblem I have a lot is that busy webserver boxes fill up 12:53:41 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:07 the developers ahve destered the boxes adn are on new things, and solaris and friends report things not in megs ro gigs but bytes or K if I am lucky 12:54:09 and that sucks 12:54:30 Ok, so what problem do you want to solve? 12:54:39 format of operating system readouts 12:54:53 possible dstat liek fucntionality 12:55:34 Sounds non-portable. 12:55:40 to manage resource problems on unix boxes 12:55:49 ya thats one problem too 12:56:01 So you want to write scripts in Common Lisp. 12:56:07 its ugly thats why it hasnt been done lol 12:56:11 I'd advise clisp. I use it to write all my scripts. 12:56:20 I just installed clisp 12:57:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 12:57:39 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 12:57:40 Well, if it's just about getting various program outputs in a common format how about just using perl to massage their output a bit? 12:57:55 I prefer tcl 12:58:02 plus i don't know much perl 12:58:25 I just wish I could do it all in 1 lang 12:58:38 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-194.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:59:11 is this hwo it is? sometime sjsut bettter to use somethign liek tcl since its good at os level stuff? 12:59:11 In clisp, there's EXT:MAKE-PIPE-INPUT-STREAM which allows you to easily read the output of a command. So you can write something like: (with-open-stream (input (EXT:MAKE-PIPE-INPUT-STREAM "find / -type f")) (read-line input)) 12:59:17 Or use Hunchentoot, cl-ppcre and vecto to build whizzy broswer-based displays. 13:00:05 whats vecto? 13:00:17 a thing that can draw into pngs 13:01:30 Zhivago: i modified my program and use the form (%parse vars),now the question is fixed. 13:01:43 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:01:45 Thanks all :) 13:01:55 Gmind [~Nevermind@123.16.96.53] has joined #lisp 13:02:48 in fact,i have a html parse that modify the tree directly,when the tree is not empty. 13:02:50 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:31 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:03:34 when tree and all subtree's initial values is something like (list (make-tag-pos)) 13:04:01 i modify tree by set its cdr: (push 'something (cdr tree)) 13:04:08 mcsontos 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erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 14:07:55 derrotebaron [johannes@static.7.69.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:55 a7p [a7p@9.83.238.89.in-addr.arpa.manitu.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:05 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.170.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:08:05 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-50-194.btc-net.bg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:08:05 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has joined #lisp 14:08:05 sacho [~sacho@87-126-50-194.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 14:08:05 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.248.64] has joined #lisp 14:08:05 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-104-222.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:05 -!- felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:08:20 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:08:39 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.30.148] has joined #lisp 14:08:53 *** snafuchs (~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com) is now known 14:08:53 as antifuchs 14:08:53 *** Salamander_ (~Salamande@ppp118-210-146-89.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net) is 14:08:53 now known as Salamander [21:35] 14:08:56 *** beach` (~user@116.118.7.244) is now known as beach [21:42] 14:09:00 #lisp> /leave [22:01] 14:09:03 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 14:09:30 the fuck? 14:09:44 carlocci [~nes@93.37.217.112] has joined #lisp 14:10:15 Salamander: pasto, probably courtesy of erc 14:10:33 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:43 konr` [~user@guns.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has joined #lisp 14:11:03 mk2`: does it exist at all? somehow I'm doubtful 14:11:21 It does, or at least did. 14:11:31 *cmm* is not sure Hurd itself can be classified as alive 14:11:39 FSVO existence 14:12:30 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 14:13:24 I know someone who works on Hurd as part of the ArchHurd project. But I don't think he does Lisp at all. 14:13:30 can anyone remember the name of James Anderson's triple-store company? 14:19:09 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-104-222.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:09 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:09 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:09 -!- e-user1 [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-orcnltkslusfxjun] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:09 -!- sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:09 -!- j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:09 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:09 -!- qebab [~robb@jaguar.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:09 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:09 -!- lichtblau [~user@91-65-223-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:19:09 -!- koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has 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[22:10] 14:25:32 Salamander: pasto, probably courtesy of erc 14:25:35 mk2`: does it exist at all? somehow I'm doubtful [22:11] 14:25:38 It does, or at least did. [22:12] 14:25:41 * cmm is not sure Hurd itself can be classified as alive 14:25:46 FSVO existence 14:25:46 I know someone who works on Hurd as part of the ArchHurd 14:25:47 project. But I don't think he does Lisp at all. [22:13] 14:25:51 can anyone remember the name of James Anderson's triple-store 14:25:54 company? 14:25:58 mk2`: RMS has said that GNU will provide system access for both 14:26:01 C and Lisp programs, and Hurd is a GNU Kernel. When I asked 14:26:27 him when this would happen for GNU/Linux, he said he considered 14:26:28 it done, because all the functionality is in libc. 14:26:30 Not me. Ask him? [22:14] 14:26:39 since GCL can (I presume) interface to C, GNU's job is done 14:26:40 here :) 14:26:40 cmm: Yes, something like that. 14:26:40 oh, and the next version of Emacs will have lexical scoping! 14:26:40 14:27:12 -!- pholasek [~pholasek_@2001:67c:1220:c1b0:21e:37ff:fecb:baa0] has quit [Quit: pholasek] 14:29:26 -!- jingtao` [~jingtaozf@123.120.30.148] has quit [Quit: erc-services-mode] 14:29:26 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:26 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 14:29:26 -!- konr` is now known as konr-ic 14:29:27 cmm: I tried to install a debian hurd in a qemu instance. So I thought its alive. But it installing took quite a long time and I stopped. I hoped to find a clean small Lisp system like plan9 14:29:27 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 14:29:27 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!*@123.120.30.* 14:29:27 whoa. ops? 14:29:28 huh, wonder why the ban didn't take 14:29:28 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 14:29:28 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.170.164] has joined #lisp 14:29:28 Because of all the bouncing, I'm going to repeat my question. Please understand that I know IRC etiquette, and if you saw my question before, please ignore me. 14:29:30 Does anyone know where I can find documentation for cl-opengl? Knowing the C API, I've been able to figure some things out, but there are plenty of Lisp-specific API-thingys that I have problems with. Is there any documetnation available? 14:30:20 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:30:42 source code is the best documentation 14:31:34 stassats`: a false statement, spread by programmers who hate writing documentation 14:31:48 Krystof: quite possible that that was an accident on his part 14:31:51 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:32:11 stassats`: well, I suppose. 14:32:17 Weel, when you're wrapping an external library and sprinkling some lispy magic on it, it's not always clear what you're trying to achieve 14:32:18 dlowe: that's just a duplication of efforts 14:32:27 stassats`: so are unit tests 14:32:30 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:35 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:32:44 dlowe: funny, i don't writer either! 14:32:44 redundancy isn't always bad 14:32:56 s/writer/write/ 14:33:12 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 14:33:17 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-213-213-26.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:33 Well, cl-opengl is a mix of autogenerated C-wrappers as well as more "lispy" constructs (like GL:WITH-PUSHED-MATRIX 14:33:51 stassats`: I think we're working on different problems, then 14:34:28 or differently on the same problems 14:35:31 I was being gracious 14:37:42 stassats`: I think clisp doesn't count for the Hurd question, as it was kinda hijacked-by-readline ^_- 14:37:55 doesn't matter, it is a gnu project 14:37:55 loke: I've never found any good documentation on cl-opengl. What is your goal? 14:38:40 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 14:38:47 basho__ [~basho__@188.108.159.76] has joined #lisp 14:39:46 loke: Maybe I can give you some of my code. But I stay away from cl-opengl's CLOS parts (as I don't really understand them). 14:39:47 mk2: actually, allI'm trying to do right now is to be able to figure out two things: 14:40:18 1: How to enable vertical sync? (this usually have to be done using nvidia-specific calls?) 14:40:28 loke: not a mix; they're distinct parts of the package. 14:40:37 2: How to set up the projection matrix 14:40:53 those are general OpenGL questions, not cl-opengl-specific. 14:41:06 I know how to do it with the C API 14:41:13 then you shouldn't have any trouble. 14:42:21 Ralith: what is your suggestion as to how I figure out, for example, what parameters are allowed as argument to gl:matrix-mode? 14:42:41 if it's nonobvious, which it shouldn't be, read the code. 14:42:45 M-. is your friend 14:42:56 the wrapping is generally quite thin. 14:43:31 you'll get a feeling for the style conventions in short order. 14:45:53 myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:47:12 Ralith: fair enough. That's really all I needed to know. My question was simply if there is any documentation that I didn't find yet. I will take your advice. 14:47:13 it'd be hard to justify docs for such trivialties, and afaik it really doesn't get much less trivial. 14:47:13 Ralith: initially I throught that you were never supposed to call the %gl: methods. Am I correct in assuming that that is not the case, but rather that the %gl: functions are in fact the autogenerated ones? 14:47:13 loke: the more modern your GL code will be, the less it will be based around C interface anyway 14:47:14 loke: there's some simple opengl code here: http://t-b-o-g.blogspot.com/2009/10/brians-brain-on-common-lisp.html 14:47:14 loke: %gl is a useful fallback if there is no wrapper, or you don't want to bother to sort out how to use the wrapper correctly, or the wrapper is for some reason undesirable 14:47:14 they're not necessarily autogenerated, but they are the direct bindings. 14:47:14 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.18.210] has joined #lisp 14:47:14 Ralith: OK, I understand. 14:47:14 it's not wrong to call them, but generally you should avoid it unless necessary. 14:47:14 p_l|backup: what do you mean "more modern"? I learned OpenGL in... let's see... 1998. I haven't really done much with it since then, so I'd assume my GL knowledge is, as you say, old. 14:47:14 simply because letting cl-opengl handle the interfacing to C will keep your code much simpler 14:47:14 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:47:20 I learned it from the OpenGL 1.2 red book. I don't know anything newer than that. 14:47:28 loke: basically, recently the push is for more work done in shaders (including complete rendering pipelines) 14:47:48 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:51 loke: if you *do* find the wrappers lacking, really the best solution is to correct that yourself and push it upstream to 3b. 14:48:17 p_l|backup: well, yeah. I've read about it. Even looked at some shader code. Looks fun, but really not anything I have any use for at the moment. 14:48:32 but one doesn't always have the time or patience. 14:48:37 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 14:48:47 In this application I'm just using OpenGL as a smarter 2D rendering engine, with orthographic projection. 14:49:52 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:50:03 loke: did you check the link i gave? 14:50:48 *p_l|backup* recalls that the first actual production shader code he had seen, ever, was character cell display. Yes. *Terminal*. With bitmapped mono fonts. 14:50:48 jdz: I did 14:51:02 mk2 pasted "simple opengl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/121150 14:51:11 I noticed that example refers to gl:ortho without the %. Is that notation new in cl-opengl? 14:53:13 -!- jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-yrddggqnlkkmszsg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:15 xan_ [~xan@64.197.211.195] has joined #lisp 14:55:45 loke: I pasted some code that opens a window and sets the projection matrix. 14:56:35 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:02 mk2: thanks, I was just looking at it. 14:58:02 Very helpful actually 14:58:04 jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-udbjmfxjajpbhtlp] has joined #lisp 14:58:04 -!- jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-udbjmfxjajpbhtlp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:04 loke: If i remember correct v-sync is often not set via opengl 14:58:04 remove the often 14:58:05 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:58:05 Guthur: I know. I need to set it via an nvidia extension, at least according to the docs I can find 14:58:05 Now, those extensions are obviously not available through cl-opengl. I'd presume I'm SOL? 14:58:05 loke, what are you using to create the window? 14:58:05 jweiss [~user@nat/redhat/x-ipxxmsgyydciwwhw] has joined #lisp 14:58:05 The GLUT window CLOS class. 14:58:05 GLFW had a flag for vsync 14:58:05 loke: you can always try to manually link the extension function (like it happens anyway on windows, for example) 14:58:06 p_l|backup: I suppose. I'll play around with it a bit 14:58:06 loke: I mostly work from within slime. There I would start a thread with (simple-gl:with-simple-gl 14:58:06 (draw)). Then I can redefine the function #'draw (in simple-gl-test.lisp) until everything is nice. Occasionally I screw up and freeglut crashes my lisp image. Then I do M-x restart-inferior-lisp or M-x slime. 14:58:06 loke: are you using fixed function pipeline? 14:58:15 Guthur: I have to admit I have no idea what that is. :-) 14:58:32 -!- elb0w [~gtsafas@38.112.182.36] has left #lisp 14:58:37 I started doing this by basing my code on the gl-gears example, so that's how I initialise the window. 14:59:09 hmm... anyone here used COM from Lisp? 14:59:22 loke: Maybe you can enforce V-SYNC by setting the environment variable __GL_SYNC_TO_VBLANK before starting emacs. 14:59:37 Oops. Have to go. Thanks a lot for your help guys! 14:59:43 mk2`: not standard 14:59:48 mk2`: thanks. I'll try that as soon as I get back to my computer :-) 15:00:12 p_l|backup: what would you use? 15:00:49 -!- Bucciarati_ is now known as Bucciarati 15:00:51 p_l|backup: ah, the extensions as you wrote above, sorry. 15:01:15 mk2`: from first look into output of glxinfo, I'd go with GLX_SGI_video_sync 15:01:53 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:03:12 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:20 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 15:03:21 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 15:03:21 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 15:07:05 a 15:07:39 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-89-124.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:09:42 p_l|backup: were you at the ELS? 15:10:29 milanj [~milanj_@212.200.217.107] has joined #lisp 15:11:52 Guthur: unfortunately not 15:11:52 some friends of mine were, though 15:11:52 -!- jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.18.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:11:52 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:53 there was a decent turnout i thought 15:11:53 -!- homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-183.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:11:53 ~60 attendees I believe 15:11:53 *splittist* awaits the blog posts, podcasts and videos without any real hope. 15:13:10 pity, I didn't keep any decent notes for such things 15:13:29 I'd likely be too lazy to do it anyway... 15:14:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-146-183.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:14:28 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.111] has joined #lisp 15:18:31 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:22:40 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.18.66.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:26:08 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.170.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:26:08 -!- seelenquell [~kvirc@212.63.70.34] 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[~streblo@c-76-103-90-50.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:54:45 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 16:57:09 -!- pholasek [~pholasek_@2001:67c:1220:c1b0:21e:37ff:fecb:baa0] has quit [Quit: pholasek] 17:00:08 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.111] has joined #lisp 17:02:36 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:02:47 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:03:12 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:09 myu2 [~myu2@v051158.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:04:29 Bronsa [~brace@host227-179-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:04:29 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-190.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:07:05 -!- gor[e] [~svr@gw1.masterhost.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:07:17 grumble grumble hunchentoot grumble 17:08:23 well, ok, that's probably _not_ a hunchentoot bug, but rather a tinaa bug 17:08:44 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:09:19 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:09:32 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 17:10:29 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:27 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.170.79] has joined #lisp 17:13:35 MoALTz [~no@92.18.72.4] has joined #lisp 17:14:47 Joreji [~thomas@77-22-64-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:17:16 iFDH [~FDH@unaffiliated/fdh] has joined #lisp 17:17:35 -!- xan_ [~xan@64.197.211.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:20:04 -!- rme [rme@clozure-E945A77C.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 17:20:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:23:06 rme_ 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isn't any. :p 17:39:15 orthography concerns spelling, not pronounciation 17:40:40 rsynnott: http://www.sgi.com/tech/stl/Deque.html#1 17:42:21 Spion_ [~spion@77.29.248.14] has joined #lisp 17:42:21 -!- Spion_ [~spion@77.29.248.14] has quit [Changing host] 17:42:21 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:45:08 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C6712.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:15 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:47:00 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.55.90] has joined #lisp 17:47:08 -!- gnooth_ [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:48:52 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-104-222.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:53 Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:53:15 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:07 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-201-222.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:54:54 ehu` [~ehuels@109.35.170.51] has 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Hello Lispers! 18:22:30 -!- gffa_ is now known as gffa 18:23:37 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 18:25:29 superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:25:36 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:52 I'm looking at QL system string-case and curious to know why the DEFKNOWN variant (SBCL specific) of NUMERIC-CHAR= doesn't package qualify the symbol DEFKNOWN. Does the compiler have some magic which allows it to be automatically recognized? 18:27:47 mon_key: the string-case package uses the package from which defknown is exported. 18:27:52 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-76-254-45-145.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:22 ! So sorry, I'm an idiot. 18:28:25 in the USE-PACKAGE sense. 18:28:50 rme_ [~rme@pool-70-105-127-163.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:10 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 18:29:28 -!- rme [rme@clozure-57151BBF.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 18:29:29 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 18:29:37 <- Thinks the gas leak from earlier this afternoon in the adjacent building is still having some fallout :( 18:30:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-22-64-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:30:52 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-131-186.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:30:52 -!- rme_ is now known as rme 18:32:31 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:32:33 forms evaluated in the REPL have compile and load phase, right? 18:32:53 no 18:32:53 mathrick: Not normally. 18:32:55 things evaluated at the repl go through EVAL 18:33:03 hmm 18:33:25 so LOAD-TIME-VALUE won't trigger? 18:33:51 now is a good time to read clhs load-time-value 18:34:01 ie. I have a macro which needs to expand to a unique value in each site, and keep the value once it does 18:34:12 stassats`: I guess I'll have to do that 18:35:44 -!- rme [rme@clozure-B0E478E.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 18:36:23 stassats`: humm, can't say I can answer my question now 18:36:49 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-127-163.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:37:26 that's bad 18:37:40 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-194.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:38:32 stassats`: so REPL only has :EXECUTE, and not necessarily either :COMPILE or :LOAD? 18:39:03 E in REPL is EVAL 18:39:52 oh wait, I missed the passage about EVAL somehow 18:39:53 I wonder how I did that 18:40:14 okay, so it does what I want 18:40:14 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-39-4.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 18:40:18 yes, that's the passage i meant in mind 18:42:44 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:43:12 I am having a strange problem - sbcl falls into ldb with "maximum amount of memory mappings exceeded". what can cause such behaviour? 18:43:50 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-173-143.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:45:28 out of memory somewhere? what OS/arch? 18:45:37 Linux, x64 18:45:58 and it happens non-regulary 18:46:28 I have a big document that sbcl reads and then calls a C++ program to process it, then gathers output and processes it 18:46:36 usually it passes fine 18:46:38 skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-180-185-4.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:40 freiksenet: how old is your sbcl? 18:46:42 but several times it felt into ldb 18:46:55 1.0.40.0 18:47:14 but we are using, I think, 37 in production 18:47:34 freiksenet: can you check its mmory mappings? 18:47:50 try a newer one, i think the size of the things it tries to mmap was increased recently 18:48:03 or what about running SBCL under debugger 18:48:05 so it does less mmaps 18:48:51 -!- iFDH [~FDH@unaffiliated/fdh] has quit [Quit: need sleep] 18:49:02 p_l|backup: how do I check the mappings? 18:49:19 yeah, it was increased in 1.0.45.7 18:49:45 ok, I'll pass that to our techlead, we might migrate then. 18:50:16 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 18:50:59 and you can also increase the amount of maximum memory mappings 18:51:01 somehow 18:51:18 we don't have root access on production server 18:51:51 so we can't do that ( 18:52:28 you could try exploits! 18:52:49 or just ask nicely? :> 18:53:34 well it's shared between several groups, I don't think the want us to occupy everything :) though we can try if we actually get that problem more. I would prefer to find out what exactly is going wrong 18:54:01 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:57:25 well, sbcl mmaps every page, if they're too many of them, you'll soon hit the limit emposed by the kernel 18:57:28 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:57:39 you can increase the page size, which was done to the default value recently 18:57:41 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:11 freiksenet: the mmap limit is a limit per process, not per machine. 19:03:25 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 19:03:42 but why is there a limit at all? does kernel feel bad when there's too much mmapings? 19:03:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 19:03:51 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:06:24 hi foom :) 19:08:03 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@vpnsh0118.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:08 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:52 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-144-55.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:34 basically, yes 19:09:36 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-146-89.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:09:38 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.89.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:10:58 MoALTz [~no@92.18.170.43] has joined #lisp 19:12:14 fe[nl]ix: hey. 19:12:36 stassats`: yes, making lots of mappings is pretty bad for performance. 19:12:48 stassats`: it makes fork() really damn slow, for example. 19:13:52 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.173.179] has joined #lisp 19:14:42 sid3k [~user@li298-167.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:15:07 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-oktzlricbbjyrcff] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16:47 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:17 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:17:48 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:43 gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 19:20:55 jesusito [~user@75.pool85-49-46.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:21:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:21:51 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:23:56 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c7e46c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:24:21 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@vpnsh0118.fh-trier.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:43 DiaitaDoc [~DiaitaDoc@bas1-ottawa01-1176118706.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:25:33 -!- jesusito [~user@75.pool85-49-46.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 19:26:09 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:26:24 anyone here have any expierience w/ qi-II or Qi-tk? 19:30:08 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:32:07 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-87-47-213.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:39:41 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:39:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:39:42 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 19:39:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 19:39:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:39:44 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 19:39:44 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:41:13 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:42:11 pnq [~nick@host-130.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 19:44:15 timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:45:54 -!- splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: splittist2] 19:47:12 -!- skeptical_p [~rononovsk@bzq-79-180-185-4.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:49:14 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.111] has joined #lisp 19:49:29 [1]DiaitaDoc [~DiaitaDoc@bas1-ottawa01-1176118706.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:49:40 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:27 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:50:28 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:50:28 mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:43 -!- DiaitaDoc [~DiaitaDoc@bas1-ottawa01-1176118706.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:52:17 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.173.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:52:26 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:52:39 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:55:37 Joreji [~thomas@77-22-64-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:45 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/session] has joined #lisp 19:56:24 Anyone experienced with the femlisp multiprocessing package could give me hint how to use the with-workers macro? There isn't any documentation apart from the docstring which isn't very useful. 19:56:33 s/hint/a hint/ 19:56:34 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/session] has quit [Changing host] 19:56:34 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-yvajgzxyppkjmqzm] has joined #lisp 19:57:16 Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@vpnsh0118.fh-trier.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:50 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:21 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:54 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-75-102.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:30 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:00:39 -!- m1ndvirus []@unaffiliated/mindvirus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:01:37 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-144-55.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:02:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-22-64-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:04:11 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:05:48 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:28 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-147-9.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:15 mk2 [~user@cpc7-lewi14-2-0-cust39.2-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:41 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-75-102.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:10:19 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:07 Trystam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:48 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-161-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 20:12:49 Oabl [~Oabl@167.Red-88-22-219.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:49 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:49 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:15:16 -!- [1]DiaitaDoc [~DiaitaDoc@bas1-ottawa01-1176118706.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 20:16:21 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-159-196.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:01 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-yvajgzxyppkjmqzm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:37 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-147-9.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:18:54 -!- pnq [~nick@host-130.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:19:03 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-190.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:19:10 dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 20:20:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:21:24
Hi All! Am I correct in thinking that arrays in CL are stored in row-major format? (I can't seem to find it in the HyperSpec, but the non-existance of column-major-aref in the spec leads me to believe this is true.) 20:21:32 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:21:51
Or, is this (shudder) left to the implementation? 20:21:59 it is left to the implementation 20:22:00 dl: It's left to the implementation. 20:22:06
oh dear! 20:22:30
Is there any way to know what a particular implementation does? 20:22:32 it can be implemented as lists 20:22:44 or as a hash-table 20:22:55 dl: why do you want to know? 20:23:17 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-104-222.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:18
because i don't want to thrash my cache 20:23:30 dl: profile and tune 20:23:40 buy more cache! 20:23:42 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-104-222.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:23:42
in this particular application, speed is important 20:23:42 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 20:23:48
lol 20:24:24 Though given the array API, it seems like it'd be a pretty perverse implementation that didn't implement them in row-major format. 20:24:43
So, there is no way to write portable code that does "the right thing" wrt. this implementation ? 20:25:07
gigamonkey: thus my comment of not being able to find column-major-aref :) 20:25:38 dl: In sbcl you can use sb-ext:array-storage-vector to obtain the internal simple-array. (Or you can make a displaced array which is portable but I always got lots of notes from the optimizer when I tried this). 20:25:42 dl: caring about cache and portability in the same sentence? 20:25:59
I was mostly wondering if this was defined in the spec or if there was some other (portable) way of finding out :) 20:26:03
tcr: I don't see why you can't... 20:26:10
this *is* lisp after all! :) 20:26:24 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:27:16
mostly, I'd like to write my code with SBCL and if the guy I'm working with decides he wants something else it will be relatively painless (that is, of course, assuming I can get him to use CL at all :) 20:27:24 portability and speed don't fit at the same line 20:27:51
hmm... 20:28:18 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C6712.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:22 SBCL is fast at many things (except compilation). 20:32:22
I think if you know that there are two possible ways that something could be implemented (row-major vs. column-major), it would be simple to, assuming you can tell at compile time, produce the right code for your platform... 20:32:22
Xach: yes! :) 20:32:22 Also FASL loading is not very fast. 20:32:23 it's fast on a real compute 20:32:23
Xach: one of my non-lisp co-workers was even commenting the other day how he'd heard SBCL was a really good (and fast) implementation. 20:32:23 r 20:32:23 dl: I recommend writing it, profiling it, and optimizing it for the implementation you use. 20:32:24 -!- Ragnaroek_ [~chatzilla@vpnsh0118.fh-trier.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:32:24 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:32:24
Xach: I guess thats what I'm stuck with :) I was hoping there would be either something I missed in the spec wrt. arrays or maybe something with *features* ... 20:32:24 dl: It's not really being stuck, though! 20:32:24 You have to do that for pretty much anything if performance is a strong concern. 20:32:24
I'm very much thinking SBCL is implemented to store arrays in row-major format. Is that correct? 20:32:36 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:32:50
Xach: I just seem to always find the "this is not defined" dark corners of the spec :) 20:33:02 Fortunately, computers got a lot faster so you don't have to do *really* dumb tricks like writing things as macros for "performance" 20:33:26 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:33:48 tauntaun [~Crumpet@64.134.66.17] has joined #lisp 20:34:24 dl: I guess it doesn't seem that dark to me. 20:34:54
I've seen one too many C programmers writing Fortran (or vice-versa) who end up with *slow* code because their loops are inverted... 20:35:12 Write, profile, tune, repeat... 20:35:23
:) 20:35:40 "If your friend doesn't use SBCL, can he really be that good a friend?" 20:35:47 save cache, buy faster CPU 20:35:48 *Xach* ponders a t-shirt 20:35:49
lol 20:36:18
stassats: its hard to find a CPU with too much cache... 20:36:28 dl you mean row-major accessing or something else? 20:36:29
or... its really easy to thrash your cache... 20:36:58
vsync: I'm wondering how 2D arrays are stored in memory 20:37:08 Xach: I think macros for performance are useful. I want to do 3D image processing and its not nice if you have two wait 20s instead of 200ms just to convert a volume from complex to unsigned-byte. 20:37:43 and how macros would help here? 20:37:48 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:38:34 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:38:42
Hmmm... What if I were to instead always use ROW-MAJOR-AREF and *assume* the implementation doesn't do something braindead with the cache??? 20:38:48 Joreji [~thomas@77-22-64-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:39:08
ROW-MAJOR-AREF seems (ever-so-slightly) faster under SBCL anyway 20:39:16 dl: There's only one way to be sure...try it and measure! 20:39:22 why not just use a vector? 20:39:26
:) 20:39:43 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:39:48
stassats: that would work... 20:40:26 -!- Trystam is now known as Tristam 20:41:21
I guess, mostly, because I'm translating someone else's code and plan to hand it back (and hope its somewhat recognizeable to them) 20:41:21
... but row-major-aref would break that goal anyway.. so :) 20:41:21 mk2: like (defmacro square (x) `(* ,x ,x))? 20:41:21
Thanks so much for all the input! 20:41:21 stassats`: I used macros to write lots of functions with the right declarations. Unfortunately its considerably faster if you tell SBCL that you have single-float. 20:42:04 mk2: I specifically meant the once-common practice of using macros to pretend to inline something. Using macros to write real code makes sense. 20:42:16 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:42:37 Hexstream pasted "SETF-EXPANDERLET is trivial to define portably!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/121156 20:43:31 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host228-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:43:34 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955B8F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:43:53 I was previously very sad about the limited capabilities of local setf functions... 20:44:53 <_3b> Xach: now if we could just convince people to stop using (safety 0) as a first step in optimization :/ 20:45:46 ... 20:46:08 -!- alama [~alama@212.33.73.141] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:46:20 _3b: if only. puri messed me up that way. "oh, a displaced string instead of a simple one? time to crash the whole image!" 20:46:59 at least sbcl has restrict-compiler-policy 20:47:02 *_3b* luckily only got wrong answers instead of crashed imaghe, still took a while to debug though 20:47:03 i even had code which became slower with (safety 0) 20:47:26 marginally, but still 20:48:20 -!- acelent` is now known as acelent 20:50:37 Hum. Seems like I found a solution to a problem nobody gives a shit about again :( 20:52:23 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:53:04 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:36 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:55:08 Hexstream: What do you use it for? I've never defined my own setfs but recently got interested because of the image processing library opticl. 20:55:11 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:55:19
_3b: at what point *do* you set safety to 0? (never?) 20:55:19 *stassats`* defines setf-functions and setf-methods all the time 20:55:33 but not setf-expanders, or anything else 20:55:41 tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:15 dl: when you know what you're doing 20:57:06
:) 20:57:07 mk2: Well, I want to make a LAZY-LET and WITH-RESOLVED-PLACES that will handle everything like I want it to. 20:57:07 <_3b> dl: i generally don't set it... with sbcl, a bit more inlining usually solves the same problems without risking more bugs 20:57:10 <_3b> dl: otherwise, after making sure everything works, and validating input by hand somewhere where it won't hurt performance 20:59:42 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-118-66.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:59:57 -!- gor[e] [~svr@79.165.187.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:01:28 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:01:29 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:01:29 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-39-4.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:01:29 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:01:29 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [*.net *.split] 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[~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:02 sorry, how do I add a new slot to an already defined structure? 21:07:32 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-203-181.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:07:57 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08:49 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 21:09:00 no way 21:09:06 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:09:29 you'd need to redefine it, and discard all the places which used the old structure 21:09:32 erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has joined #lisp 21:09:58 and it's still non-standard, but that's what most of the implementation will allow you to do 21:10:03 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-203-181.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:13 oh, ok. Thank you stassats 21:10:36 if you want sane redefinitions and whatnot, use classes 21:11:21 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:59 Hexstream annotated #121157 "Some example uses" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/121157#1 21:15:06 pnq [~nick@ACA38504.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:02 reb` [~user@nat/google/x-pohuzmeznpdxlrmy] has joined #lisp 21:16:17 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-xlsqvgpsvfgwnzxs] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:17 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:16:38 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-64-185-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:18:11 -!- |3b|` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:25 |3b|` [~bbb@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:51 -!- dl [~download@chpcwl01.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:24:24 -!- Landr [~user@78-23-214-79.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-22-64-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:24:36 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:17 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-130-236.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:35 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:25:41 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:25:46 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:25 v0|d [~user@93.94.250.121] has joined #lisp 21:26:36 Landr [~user@78-23-214-79.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 21:27:55 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-39-4.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Quit] 21:29:15 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:42 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212.200.217.107] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:31:35 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:33:10 Hexstream: Nice. I think I got it. You create a variable cache that can figure out if it is full. Is it like cells, but without the dependencies? You can compute something whenever the value is changed? 21:33:51 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:34:01 Hexstream: Dpendencies in the sense that variables like cache don't depend on each other. 21:35:25 alama [~alama@82.139.172.44] has joined #lisp 21:36:53 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:37:09 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-104-222.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:38:24 Joreji [~thomas@77-22-64-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:23 mega1 [~user@fw1.franz.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:33 -!- alama [~alama@82.139.172.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:41:40 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:42:41 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:42:41 -!- jdz [~jdz@host200-104-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:45:32 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.95] has joined #lisp 21:46:34 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:13 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:48:27 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:43 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-113-121.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 21:51:19 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159903.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:51:25 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-149-184.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:01 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:55:08 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:55:10 kltm [~kltm@static-169-229-195-137.QB3.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:55:21 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:58 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-164-208.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:10 -!- Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:58:34 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-167-241.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:30 alama [~alama@82.139.172.44] has joined #lisp 22:00:56 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:00:56 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:00:57 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 22:00:57 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 22:00:57 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 22:01:16 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:01:48 awesome_guest [cc109d52@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.16.157.82] has joined #lisp 22:01:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-22-64-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:01:59 is "lambda expression" synonymous with "anonymous function"? 22:02:53 no it means a *list* beginning with the symbol LAMBDA that when evalutated, evaluates to a function 22:03:05 in CLHS speak anyway 22:04:57 it evaluates to a function, and if it's not bound, that function is lost :) 22:05:25 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-64-185-142.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: quit] 22:05:41 alrighty 22:06:58 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-31-28-194.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bhyde] 22:08:48 -!- _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: .] 22:09:45 -!- |3b|` [~bbb@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:40 -!- awesome_guest [cc109d52@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.16.157.82] has left #lisp 22:10:51 wamble [~streblo@c-24-130-143-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:27 -!- rgibbs [~chatzilla@2965.artic.edu] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024001]] 22:14:15 -!- alama [~alama@82.139.172.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16:03 _3b [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:18 alama [~alama@82.139.172.44] has joined #lisp 22:18:57 -!- wamble [~streblo@c-24-130-143-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:36 -!- mydik [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:29:53 sabalaba [~sabalaba@udhcp116.public.dc.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 22:30:03 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.95] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:30:12 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@udhcp116.public.dc.umich.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:30:39 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:30:49 xan_ [~xan@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 22:31:42 -!- alama [~alama@82.139.172.44] has quit [Quit: alama] 22:44:07 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 22:45:02 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 22:45:13 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:25 -!- basho__ [~basho__@188.108.159.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:33 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 22:45:35 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 22:46:54 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:49:15 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:50:08 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@64.134.66.17] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:50:41 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 22:50:51 in bordeaux threads, if a thread finishes, will #'thread-alive-p be nil when called on it? 22:51:02 I can't find any closing evidence in the api at cl.net 22:51:08 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 22:52:06 sylecn [~sylecn@cpe-70-112-211-195.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:20 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:52:25 crod [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:53:16 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:54:11 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:01 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:55:49 bhyde [~bhyde@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:11 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:58:26 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 22:59:11 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:59:13 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.120.24] has joined #lisp 23:00:09 -!- gmaggior [~gmaggior@host166-178-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:01:37 -!- kltm [~kltm@static-169-229-195-137.QB3.Berkeley.EDU] has left #lisp 23:16:34 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-16.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:18:38 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-457c37c3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:59 htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 23:21:44 slyrus: herep 23:28:56 -/win c 23:28:59 -!- dbelange [~dbelange@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has left #lisp 23:29:36 Does anyone mirror the SLIME CVS repo in git somewhere? 23:29:42 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:19 -!- prip_ [~foo@host35-123-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:32:43 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.250.108] has joined #lisp 23:33:17 gigamonkey: https://github.com/nablaone/slime 23:34:18 *_3b* gets slime from git://sbcl.boinkor.net/slime.git 23:34:44 that github one doesn't seem to have been imported recently 23:35:00 oh, heh, it's at the latest rev too 23:35:01 oh well (: 23:35:30 Good morning everyone! 23:36:23 hello beach! 23:37:00 beach: found your paper on Gracle yesterday. Whatever happened to Gracle? 23:39:50 heya, beach 23:41:17 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.250.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:42:08 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 23:44:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:44:52 prip_ [~foo@host29-194-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:49:05 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:51:08 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 23:53:42 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-149-184.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:54:48 kvey [~xantosfla@75-164-97-85.tcso.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:34 Gracle? 23:57:11 *p_l|backup* found the paper 23:58:16 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.250.108] has joined #lisp 23:58:16 beach: did you consider AS/400 in your design for single address space I/O? 23:59:12 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 23:59:27 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.120.24] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com]