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joined #lisp 01:45:55 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:46:24 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 01:46:30 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@76.226.204.174] has joined #lisp 01:46:41 what is the function to see whether a variable exists? 01:46:47 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:47:00 boundp, symbolp, symbol-value all return errors if it doesn't 01:47:21 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 01:48:11 False. 01:48:35 (boundp '*inexistant*) --> NIL 01:48:49 ah, i thought it was an error 01:49:09 ahhh, d'oh 01:49:18 i did (boundp a), not (boundp 'a) 01:49:21 But it works only on special variables. It's assumed that the existance of lexical variables is known lexically. 01:49:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-232-154-184.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:49:24 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 01:49:40 what do you mean? 01:50:18 (let ((a 1)) (lexical-variable-exists-p (if (oddp (random 2)) 'a 'b))) 01:50:34 must be written: (let ((a 1)) (oddp (random 2))) 01:50:40 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: C-x C-c] 01:51:20 or: (let ((a 1)) (format t "Here, there's a lexical variable named A, but none named B.")) 01:51:49 But actually: (disassemble (compile nil (lambda () (let ((a 1)) (format t "Here, there's a lexical variable named A, but none named B."))))) 01:51:53 there's no variable named A either. 01:52:06 (let ((a 1)) (cons (boundp 'a) (boundp 'b))) => (nil) 01:52:16 Even if you add setq a inside. 01:52:21 Yes. 01:52:26 hmm, i think i understand 01:52:27 Check the disassemble. 01:52:50 When you compile, the name of the lexical variable disappear. There remains only register, or if you have a toy processor, memory. 01:53:08 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 01:53:44 Of course, a good debugger will keep the name of the variables around ;-) 01:53:55 so why do lexical variables vanish while dynamic variables remain? 01:54:00 So there may be implementation dependant ways get the lexical variables. 01:54:15 Landr: because dynamic variables are slots in symbols. 01:54:29 At least, conceptually. 01:54:33 and lexican variables aren't bound to symbols? 01:54:36 lexical* 01:54:48 Symbol name lexical variables, in the source. 01:54:52 But not at run-time. 01:55:00 hmm 01:55:00 Variables are bound to values. 01:55:09 Which does not mean that values are stored anywhere. 01:55:14 through symbols, right? 01:55:18 No. 01:55:22 o.O 01:55:22 not for lexical variables. 01:55:26 ah, yes 01:55:33 but it does for dynamic variables? 01:55:38 Yes. Conceptually. 01:55:49 hmm, that clears things up somewhat, I think 01:56:12 An implementation could store the value of special variables somewhere else than in the symbol object, but it would have to maintain the illusion with boundp and symbol-value. 01:56:23 variable n. a binding in the ``variable'' namespace. See Section 3.1.2.1.1 (Symbols as Forms). 01:57:14 (defun boundp (var) (nth-value 1 (gethash var *special-vars*))) (defun symbol-value (var) (values (gethash var *special-vars*))) (defun (setf symbol-value) (new-val var) (setf (gethash var *special-vars*) new-val)) 01:57:26 or (defstruct symbol package name function value plist) 01:57:35 both implementations and others are possible. 01:58:07 so... dynamic variables are named that denote symbols (that have values) whereas lexical variables are names that denote values? 01:58:43 Landr: names denote things. 01:58:49 symbols are used to name variables. 01:58:58 variables are bound to values. 01:59:16 but a symbol and a name are the same thing, right? i mean, symbols can be found by their names, and so can the name of a symbol 01:59:24 a binding is a link between a place (which may have a name, as in the case of a variable), and a value. 01:59:30 it's just that the symbol also points to many other things (in its cells) 01:59:45 Landr: the name of a variable is a symbol yes. But the name of a symbol is a string. 01:59:58 The name of a package is a string, but the name of a class is a symbol. 02:00:29 ... 02:00:36 *Landr* rubs his head 02:00:55 Functions can be named with symbols, or with lambda expressions, or with lists of the form (setf ). 02:01:03 so the name of the name of a variable is a string? 02:01:14 sin, (lambda (x) (+ x x)) and (setf symbol-value) are function names. 02:01:19 Landr: yes :-) 02:01:31 *Landr* hums humpty-dumpty 02:02:23 i see, a name is an object that serves as an identifier 02:02:29 so it too can have a name 02:03:00 Yes. 02:03:33 and names that serve as their own identifiers... 02:03:45 nope, lost it again 02:05:08 I've never understood this whole distinction and yet I still productively use Common Lisp. 02:05:10 For example, you could say that 42 names 42. 02:05:22 But we just say that 42 is self-evaluating. 02:05:24 well, "42" names 42, then? 02:05:43 You would have to define an integer-name function :-) 02:05:59 i mean, the string composed of the glyphs '4' and '2' is a name that evaluates to the value 0x2A 02:06:13 That's just a representation 02:06:14 . 02:06:31 Then of course, there are the designators. 02:06:36 ? 02:06:42 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-113-121.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 02:06:46 For example, a string designator is either a string, a symbol, or a character. 02:07:06 >designator n. an object that denotes another object. 02:07:20 The string designates itself, the symbol designates its symbol-name, and the character designates a string containing it only. 02:08:14 and the difference between a designator and an identifier is... 02:08:21 *Landr* puzzles through the hyperspec 02:08:47 huangho [~vitor@201-41-27-51.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:08:57 Landr: I don't think there are identifiers in lisp. 02:09:20 >identifier n. 1. a symbol used to identify or to distinguish names. 2. a string used the same way. 02:09:29 Ah, ok. 02:09:34 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:10:09 a symbol is an object, a name is an identifier, an identifier is a symbol, a symbol is an object 02:10:30 so an identifier is an object used to identify an object that identifies an object 02:10:36 *Landr* whargarbls 02:10:39 for example. 02:11:12 Remember that while we say that CL is a lisp-2, it's actually a lisp- 02:11:19 a symbol is an object with several slots: name, plist, value, function, ... 02:11:28 Because you can always create a new name space, implementing bindings in a hash-table or an a-list, etc. 02:11:30 a string is an object with a single value: the string 02:11:49 So you can use any kind of object to name any kind of objects, as long as you can map them. 02:11:53 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:13:12 package objects map strings to symbols 02:13:23 Too. 02:13:45 Sometimes it's interesting to use a package instead of a hash-table. For example, if your strings come mainly from I/O. 02:14:25 On the other hand, packages may be implemented with hash-tables. 02:14:27 Landr: Most of the confusion disappears when you understand the core CL structures. 02:14:31 -!- tank_ [~spmcnamar@adsl-75-21-87-212.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: tank_] 02:15:23 but I don't :( 02:15:53 names are identifiers, identifiers are symbols to distinguish names 02:16:50 Landr: you can ignore this identifier definition. It's been introduced mostly for colloquialism, I'd guess. 02:17:29 so what is the basic element, a symbol, right? 02:17:36 basic for what? 02:17:41 The basic element is the lambda. 02:17:46 As in lambda-calculus. 02:17:57 well yes... but in the core CL structure 02:18:09 Landr: lambda. 02:18:39 but implementations don't work with lambda! 02:18:49 i mean, they work with namespaces, objects, stuff like that 02:19:03 assembly structures with pointers and whatnot 02:19:04 cons = (lambda (a d) (lambda (c) (funcall c a d))) ; car = (lambda (k) (funcall k true)) ; cdr = (lambda (k) (funcall k false)) ; true = (lambda (v f) v) ; false = (lambda (v f) f) 02:19:28 i know you can redefine everything as a lambda function, but that doesn't explain what symbols are 02:19:31 Landr: How do you know that implementations don't work with lambda? Perhaps there's some lambda-calculus hardware beneath? 02:19:50 Landr: you cannot explain what things are, because of abstraction. 02:19:57 aargh 02:20:24 jingtao [~user@123.120.38.107] has joined #lisp 02:20:27 Landr: concretely, what I can say, is that apart perhaps less than a handfull exceptions, symbols are made of electronic states. 02:20:40 something like a "package designator" just means "Things that need a package can find one based on what you give" 02:20:50 But how they're made at intermediate levels of abstraction vary from machine to machine, and implementation to implementation. 02:20:56 a symbol, string, or package for instance are useful "package designator"s 02:21:03 Landr: Above I gave you sketches of TWO implementations of symbols. 02:21:08 a designator is not a concrete object type itself 02:21:23 One based on hash-table (to store their special values), and one based on structures. 02:21:27 -!- gary-s [~gary@186.42.102.50] has quit [Quit: gary-s] 02:21:32 :( 02:21:59 Conceptually, that is, in terms of API, (defstruct symbol package name function value plist) is a good definition, a good explaination of what a symbol is. 02:22:12 this is even worse than a lecture on Kantian phenomenology 02:22:21 what's the core question here? 02:22:35 But an implementation may choose to defer the implementation of structure after the definition of a more primitive symbol data type, given that structure need to refer the type of structure, and types are denoted by symbols... 02:22:43 Phoodus: what's the relationship between names, identifiers, objects, variables, strings, namespaces, etc... 02:23:01 htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 02:23:06 oh, and symbols, of course 02:23:17 um, that's a very vague question 02:23:18 Landr: well, the first paper of lisp, describe or defines lisp by giving an interpreter (the function eval) written in lisp. 02:23:23 a symbol is a primitive structure in lisp 02:23:26 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 02:23:28 Dijkstra didn't like t hat. 02:23:42 an identifier/name is more a usage scenario than an actual object 02:23:52 a variable is just a place that holds a value 02:24:06 a string is an array object that holds characters 02:24:27 namespaces? you mean packages? that's an object that holds string->symbol mappings 02:24:34 Landr: we have the same difficulty in logic, to define semantics of a formal system, we only can map the formal system onto another, saying that the other is the "meaning" of the first formal system. 02:24:45 I don't think he's asking for a formal system 02:24:58 But this is what we're discussing all the time. 02:25:23 right, but one discussion and some arbitrary question have no relation 02:25:23 In programming languages it's the same. We can give the semantics of a programming language by mapping it to a mathematical theory, or by mapping it to some other language (eg. assembly language). 02:25:41 yes, but it's the terminology that bothers me 02:25:51 yeah, CLHS is very, very particular with terminology 02:25:51 -!- jingtao [~user@123.120.38.107] has left #lisp 02:25:55 AFAIAC, giving the semantics of the language with a mapping to the language itself (as long as it's not the trivial identity) is good enough. 02:26:13 if you understand those semantics precisely first 02:26:18 Landr: you can just imagine sets, and functions going from one set to another. 02:26:27 so to understand recursion, you must first understand recursion, yay! 02:26:34 Landr: you have the set of strings, and the set of symbols, and the set of variables. 02:26:48 but what is a variable? 02:26:58 Ah! This is not a first class object. 02:27:02 Landr: what was the original question? Why do you care about the details? Have you written some code or read PCL? 02:27:44 Landr: there are a few things in lisp that are not first class objects. Arguably, those indeed are the most puzzling ones. 02:27:53 nuntius: the original question was about the difference between lexical and dynamic variables. i care because... i have to know? i've written some code yes and i've read PCL 02:27:55 Landr: variables are names that refer to memory. Lexical variables can be compiled away. Dynamic variables have global scope, thus their symbols are bound. 02:28:02 there are special variables (typically found as the symbol-value behind a symbol), and local variables, which are typically just slots on the stack 02:28:30 (let ((a 4)) (let ((a 5)) (print a)) (print a)) 02:28:36 Landr: variable n. a binding in the ``variable'' namespace. See Section 3.1.2.1.1 (Symbols as Forms). 02:28:53 Landr: binding n. an association between a name and that which the name denotes. 02:29:02 ok, from an OO perspective, dynamic variables are objects, whereas lexical variables are just parameters pushed onto the stack when calling functions, right? 02:29:13 and is a "namespace" really an object in the lisp environment, or just a standards grouping? 02:29:15 So, since the name of a variable is a symbol, a variable is an association between the symbol and the value. 02:29:25 Landr: correct. 02:29:28 in that nested let, there are two separate memory locations. If "a" were dynamic, both 4 and 5 would have been stored in the symbol itself. 02:29:43 ahh, wait 02:29:56 a variable is the name we give to the link between a name and a value... not an actual lisp datum? 02:30:06 Yes. 02:30:18 i mean, it's not: name -> variable -> value, but variable: "name -> value" 02:30:25 Only, in a compiler, there would be a reification of variables. 02:30:31 Landr: correct. 02:30:50 ok, that's starting to make sense 02:30:55 with dynamic variables and 'let', it basically does (setf *var* new-value) (setf *var* old-value) 02:31:08 for (let ((*var* new-value)) ) 02:31:09 Landr: in OO, any relationship can be reified at will. 02:31:16 *Landr* just doesn't know what things are actual lisp data, and what things are names to describe lisp data 02:31:26 #'disassemble is your friend 02:31:38 So the relationship name -> value which is named variable can be reified in a compiler, so that it can be manipulated and the storage allocated, and code generated, etc. 02:31:44 (#'disassemble 'CLHS) 02:31:52 heh 02:32:29 and a name.. it's an identifier 02:32:31 (also, I don't think that syntax would work with the initial #' in there) 02:33:04 and by "name" you mean "symbol"? 02:33:07 so (lambda () 2) is a name identifier the/a function that returns 2? and so is F23 (if we did (defun F23 () 2) earlier) 02:33:20 no, just... "words to describe it" 02:33:23 ok 02:33:32 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33:58 with (defun F23 ...), F23 is a "function designator", because the system can find a function behind F23 02:34:06 jingtao [~user@123.120.38.107] has joined #lisp 02:34:07 chimaera [~eudoxia@r190-64-213-255.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 02:34:45 but F23 is a name for a symbol that has a function-slot that points to a particular set of instructions, right? 02:34:54 correct 02:34:59 lanthan [~ze@46.253.54.75] has joined #lisp 02:35:17 remember, a "function designator" is not a concrete type, but a set of types from which the system can get a function from it 02:35:29 and a name is a symbol that points to another symbol/object 02:35:45 that I don't get 02:35:48 Phoodus: like lambda and F23 then? both designators 02:36:01 -!- lanthan [~ze@46.253.54.75] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 02:36:13 well, whatever is returned by lambda 02:36:16 -!- tmh [6348b01a@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:36:18 it seems like you're trying to define "name", even though above you said you're using it just as human conversational descriptive text 02:37:07 well, it has 5 separate definitions in the HS 02:37:29 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-64-209-103.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:37:52 tank_ [~spmcnamar@adsl-75-21-87-212.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:03 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-173648.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:38:11 there is no concrete object instance type in lisp that is "name", if that makes it a bit more clear 02:38:24 yes, there's just symbols 02:38:30 and other object types 02:38:43 and some of those objects point to other objects 02:39:13 there are no pointers specifically available in lisp 02:39:22 it's up to the implementation what it uses as a pointer, vs what it uses literally 02:39:42 so if you have (cons 1 2), the cons cell returned will most likely hold 2 literal values, not pointers to numbers 02:39:48 yes but regardless of what it's called, pointers or bananas, they do "point/refer/talk about/give directions" to something 02:39:55 while (cons 'x 'y) holds 2 pointers 02:40:18 no matter the actual implementation 02:40:32 yep. That's typically called a "slot" in lisp lingo 02:41:08 a place inside an object that can hold other objects 02:42:12 well, then slots aren't the same as pointers in that case 02:42:21 since slots can contain pointers, but also, say, numbers 02:42:24 a slot is a place where you can put another object 02:42:24 michael_lf [~michael@117.32.153.145] has joined #lisp 02:42:39 like you said, that matters only to the implementation 02:42:49 it's a place to hold "something" 02:43:08 cells? :> 02:43:18 if it currently holds 3, and you add a value big enough to make it a bigint instead of a fixnum, then what's in the slot will no longer hold a literal, but now a pointer 02:43:32 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:36 a cons cell effectively has 2 slots, the car and the cdr 02:44:14 (defstruct foo a b c) has 3 slots (plus internal slots for various implementation-specifics) 02:44:34 hmm 02:44:35 erm, the result of (make-foo ...) has 3 slots ;) 02:44:38 Landr: The name of the symbol F23 is the string "F23" 02:44:59 yes, but "the symbol F23" is something you can only say/has meaning in meatspace 02:45:03 And when you write (F23), F23 is the name of the function named F23. 02:45:44 typically, that's from (symbol-value 'F23), but if you're inside (labels ((f23 ...)) ...), then it references a local function "named" by F23 02:45:49 it can also be a designator, in the sense that (funcall 'f23) will do the same, if there's no lexical function named F23 defined in the lexical environment. 02:45:50 s/symbol-value/symbol-function/ 02:45:55 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@64.134.69.11] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:46:16 "F23" is hash-tabled (or however it's done) in what is called a 'namespace' to return the address of a structure that has more pointers (to functions, or actual values, etc.) 02:46:24 package 02:46:29 ah right, my bad 02:46:39 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:46:57 yes, the reader sees your literal text string "f23" in your source code, hits the current package to find the singleton symbol represented by that string name in that package 02:47:02 i guess i'm still getting confused between compilation and REPL 02:47:14 (after applying the reader-case, which typically uppercases it first) 02:48:10 Landr: no need to be confused. Eval can also be implemented as: (defun eval (form) (funcall (compile nil (list 'lambda nil form)))) 02:49:01 yes, but i don't think those are valid opcodes on ... whatever machine they first implemented lisp on ;p 02:49:02 so your source code gets read from the string "(f23 'a)" to something like the list (CL-USER::F23 (QUOTE CL-USER::A)) 02:49:21 Landr: what opcodes? What do you mean? 02:49:32 if you want opcodes, again, #'disasemble is your friend 02:49:51 well, to implement lisp you have to work with a processor, so the actual implementation is done in a non-lisp language 02:50:04 Landr: why? 02:50:11 Landr: sbcl is written in sbcl. 02:50:17 cmucl is written in cmucl. 02:50:19 but it runs native machine code 02:50:20 ... well yes, but that's after you have sbcl 02:50:23 ccl is written in ccl. 02:50:32 yes, but those are second generation implementations 02:50:42 Phoodus: not necessarily. You can cross compile sbcl with clisp or ccl. 02:50:58 Landr: the first LISP, was written in LISP, and hand-compiled. 02:51:04 C was first written in assembly, until a good enough compiler was made that could compile a C compiler written in C 02:51:13 right, but when sbcl is running, your source code turns into machine code, which SBCL throws the CPU's program counter directly at 02:51:16 C was written in BPCL 02:51:20 BPCL was written in C. 02:51:22 ok, so BPCL 02:51:24 BPCL was written in B. sorry. 02:51:34 hm 02:51:34 B was written in assembler I suppose. 02:51:54 anyway, the point is, all languages are bootstrapped, either from an earlier language, or from assembly 02:52:37 ah yes, the IBM 704 02:52:50 Landr: but it doesn't matter, because to implement EVAL and helper functions, you need very little of a lisp. symbols, cons, a sexp reader, lambda. ALl this can be written in assembler by hand with no great difficulty. 02:53:16 well, not to implement Common Lisp 02:53:24 And even... symbols in the first LISP were implemented mostly as CONSes. 02:53:35 That is, as their property list. 02:53:36 you need a fair amount of types to form the basis of that 02:53:44 yes, you only need a few primitive things (though most implementations will write a lot more for speed purposes) 02:53:52 bj0ern_ [~bpaschen@a89-183-85-165.net-htp.de] has joined #lisp 02:53:55 They had basically only integers and cons cells. 02:54:21 There was no strings, they just used symbols, and there was no character, they just used integers. 02:54:42 (and erlang never got past that! ;) ) 02:54:42 integers as in strings that had to be converted to integers, or direct values? 02:55:02 -!- jingtao [~user@123.120.38.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55:06 Landr: in old computers, the character '0' was encoded into the integer 0. 02:55:14 up to '9' encoded into 9. 02:55:15 (A B C) == (65 . (66 . (67 . nil))) in ascii 02:55:19 So there was no difference. 02:55:20 or whatever 02:55:34 erm, "ABC" I meant, not (A B C) 02:55:41 -!- bj0ern [~bpaschen@a89-182-16-2.net-htp.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:55:41 -!- bj0ern_ is now known as bj0ern 02:55:52 strings aren't lists, are they? 02:56:05 of course, some did trickery where multiple bytes were held in a single car, based on the word size 02:56:09 they're arrays in CL 02:56:17 Landr: in CL they're vectors of characters. 02:56:36 Landr: but you could implement strings as lists in your own lisp. 02:56:48 Actually, there are good arguments as to why you should do that. 02:57:00 that'd be very bad on memory size ;p 02:57:09 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:57:15 Landr: you're always confounding concepts and implementations. 02:57:32 yes, if you use it "for real" instead of to achieve the accomplishment of making a running lisp 02:57:33 cons, car, and cdr are not incompatible with a packed implemented. See cdr-coding. 02:57:48 i blame my harsh C learning :( where to understand the concepts i had to understand the implementation 02:57:57 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:58:06 The best thing you can do to learn lisp, is to forget about how it's implemented. 02:58:17 yeah, in CLHS there is a lot of "implementation of concepts" where the foundations are implementation-specifics 02:58:23 If you must ask, symbol is implemented as a defstruct, and eval is implemented as a recursive function. 02:58:49 *Landr* is a bit OCD about having to find out the very core of things 02:59:00 if I could I'd disassemble things down to the subatomic level 02:59:03 then you should be gobbling up disassebmlies :-P 02:59:07 (Just keep in mind that the image you make for yourself of how things are, may be implemented in quite different ways, as long as the API is consistent). 02:59:16 that's how I learned all my lisp implementation specifics 02:59:22 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 02:59:39 http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/sbcl-internals/ 02:59:45 Phoodus: well, i started off with clisp, which isn't really helpful for that 02:59:48 Yes, or check the sources of an implementation. 02:59:53 ccl is quite readable. 02:59:53 sbcl on the other hand, that's much nicer 02:59:56 http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/index 03:00:02 there are things that seem very complex in CLHS where things like SBCL have found very clever, fast, tight ways of performing it 03:00:21 Landr: indeed, the parts of clisp written in C are, alien. 03:00:28 http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html 03:00:49 lots of good details are readily available if you really want them... 03:01:17 well yes, but i still have to get the whole CLHS to "click" 03:01:22 however, you do have to have an understanding of what concepts are being implemented before you really see the value of the implementation specifics 03:01:30 yep 03:02:31 -!- beelike [~Usuario23@76.73.16.26] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)] 03:02:37 you do have to realize what exist in "CLHS space" vs what actually exists as a literal object inside Lisp 03:02:53 things like "names" and "designators" can sometimes throw you off when they're used so specifically 03:03:08 indeed 03:03:32 And the sources of LISP 1.5: ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/free/develop/lisp/lisp15-0.0.2.tar.gz 03:05:38 Landr: so, (list (string-downcase "Hello") (string-downcase 'hello) (string-downcase #\H) (make-array 3) (make-array (list 3))) 03:05:45 these functions use designators. 03:06:12 (string-equal 'hello "hello") too. 03:06:17 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.135.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:06:21 Therefore (string-equal '() "nil") ;-) 03:07:02 If there's one thing in the spec that grates me, it's that (symbolp '()) -> t :-P 03:07:10 and since 'nil = "nil", 'nil = '() 03:07:23 'nil does not equal "nil" 03:07:37 however, if something wants a string designator, you can give it a symbol and it will auto-symbol-string it for you 03:07:44 * (eql '() 'nil) 03:07:44 T 03:07:49 *Landr* shrugs 03:07:50 (and (string= (string-name 'nil) "NIL") (eq 'nil '())) 03:08:47 Most package functions also take package designators: either the package itself, or a string naming or nick-naming the package. 03:08:56 if I were inventing Lisp way back when, (eq 'nil '()) would fail, but (eq (symbol-value 'nil) '()) would pass :-P 03:09:09 why would nil not be equal to nil? 03:09:22 the symbol nil is not equal to the string "NIL" 03:09:26 Landr: in scheme (not (eqv? 'nil '())) 03:09:38 but, the symbol 'nil can be used as a _string designator_ that will yield the string "NIL" 03:09:49 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-41-27-51.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:09:55 -!- acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:10:01 when a designator is asked for, the internals basically switch on the parameter's type in order to get what's designated 03:10:36 but 'nil is a symbol with the name "nil" pointing to the value nil 03:10:43 No. 03:10:48 no? 03:10:54 (string= (symbol-name 'nil) "NIL") see above. 03:10:59 i mean, the symbol has a name, and it points 03:11:01 yeah, but (eq nil 'nil) 03:11:01 (string-equal (symbol-name 'nil) "nil") 03:11:05 not that the name of the symbol points 03:11:23 clhs *print-case* 03:11:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cas.htm 03:11:26 the symbol nil and the value nil are eq, for CLHS compatibility. 03:11:27 clhs readtable-case 03:11:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rdtabl.htm 03:11:31 Landr: check those pages. 03:11:55 i know of the upcase thingy 03:11:56 symbols are only case-insensitive because the reader snaps to a known case 03:12:10 so the backing string of 'nil will be "NIL", not "nil" 03:12:16 Landr: then don't say that "nil" names nil. 03:12:44 but... when i write "nil" (not " "nil" "), it names nil 03:12:59 if you include the double-quotes, no it does not 03:13:09 no, the double quotes are for referring 03:13:12 Landr: if the lisp reader reads "nil" as the string "nil", so you can. 03:13:14 not what i actually type 03:13:16 (symbol-name 'nil) -> "NIL" 03:13:25 Landr: and if the lisp reader reads 'nil as the list (quote nil), so you can. 03:13:43 'nil is a list! 03:13:48 "nil" is a string! 03:13:51 if you're referring to the symbol conversationally, say 'nil instead of "nil" 03:13:52 nil is a symbol! 03:14:00 No, just say nil. 03:14:06 Read like the lisp reader. 03:14:13 ni 03:14:31 Eager to be knight? 03:14:44 -!- htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [] 03:15:08 if you read like the lisp reader, then (symbol-name 'nil) is a list ;) 03:15:31 wouldn't it be "nil"? 03:15:42 it would be the list (SYMBOL-NAME (QUOTE NIL)) 03:15:56 and evalutated, it would NOT be "nil", it would be "NIL" 03:15:58 -t 03:16:20 see, the romans would never have had this problem 03:16:37 you came from C, so you should know the issues of string case sensitivity 03:17:06 yes, but in C, strings in source code are discarded when compiling 03:17:27 -!- SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: SeanTAllen] 03:17:29 Phoodus: indeed, it's a list, and it evaluates to "NIL". (eval '(symbol-name 'nil)) --> "NIL" 03:17:35 and (symbol-name 'nil) --> "NIL" 03:17:45 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.135.82] has joined #lisp 03:17:45 but their case is preserved, and string equivalence is typically done by comparing equality of chars case sensitively 03:17:49 x --> y means (eval 'x) --> y 03:18:03 which emans (eval '(eval 'x)) --> y 03:18:03 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 03:18:22 *Phoodus* typically talks lisp as if it were being evaluated by default 03:18:23 which must be wrong. 03:18:31 We should not. 03:18:40 Better to talk about it as if it was just read. 03:18:48 --> means evaluate. 03:18:49 hence using a single quote when I'm talking about a symbol instead of its value 03:18:54 So you can express both. 03:18:58 'x --> x 03:19:00 that's new to me, though, as it's really not part of the langauge 03:19:06 (quote x) evaluates to the symbol x. 03:19:32 Otherwise we will start to use English quotations, and it'll be painful. 03:19:36 but anyway, this is reallllly pedantic :) 03:19:48 No it's a convention, and it makes things clearer. 03:19:52 so what's the next question, Landr? 03:20:22 Landr: I agree about the romans, I'm happy with uppercases for programs, but fellow programmers complain. 03:20:32 With the right font, uppercase is nice. 03:20:38 Phoodus: my brain is fried for the night :P 03:20:58 Landr: have a look at the sources of LISP 1.5, it's funny. 03:21:03 ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/free/develop/lisp/lisp15-0.0.2.tar.gz 03:21:23 i did 03:21:28 I presume that's an interpreter? 03:21:34 *Phoodus* hasn't delved into it 03:21:38 Yes, we only have the sources of the interpreter. 03:21:46 The sources of the compiler may be somewhere, but I don't have them. 03:21:53 The compiler was written in Lisp! 03:22:00 well, as it should be ;) 03:22:07 (until you get fully declarative) 03:22:10 -!- c|mell [~cmell@host154-45-static.86-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:22:19 You can read the sources of clisp compiler, it's in lisp. 03:22:32 And much much simplier than sbcl or ccl compilers, since it compiles to a lisp VM. 03:23:18 also, you can set up slime to M-. right into the sbcl source code when browsing through source 03:23:34 if you want to use sbcl for "real" cpu asm, that is 03:23:56 bsod1 [~osa1@85.100.76.122] has joined #lisp 03:25:20 SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:25:42 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@85.100.76.122] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25:59 btw, random optimization question: Is there a way in SBCL to pass around non-tagged machine integer-width numbers between functions? 03:26:03 bsod1 [~osa1@85.100.76.122] has joined #lisp 03:26:14 -!- Landr [~user@78-21-48-20.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:28:12 -!- SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:28:15 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:28:22 acelent [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 03:29:15 Phoodus: I'd try to declare them (signed-byte 32) or 64 depending. 03:29:33 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:11 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 03:31:42 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:13 pkhuong: you might like the "Anatomy of a Loop" paper by Olin Shivers 03:35:22 pjb: hmm, that seems to do the trick 03:35:44 works with unsigned as well 03:37:03 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:40:30 as does (integer 0 4294967295). I must not have had the optimization cranked last time I tried it 03:41:53 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-235-180.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:43:28 lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-235-180.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:44:38 jleija [~jleija@50.8.41.50] has joined #lisp 03:45:42 azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 03:47:22 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:50:32 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52:14 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:26 mparker [~mparker@pool-71-185-168-49.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:17 psilord2 [~psilord@ppp-70-226-174-213.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:02 wamble [~streblo@c-76-103-90-50.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:19 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:44 -!- psilord2 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[~benny@i577A8E98.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:16 -!- michael_lf [~michael@117.32.153.145] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:41 jmbr_ [~jmbr@vpn147.vpn.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 09:11:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:35 EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:44 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@101.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:11:53 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-32-119.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 09:11:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-32-119.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 09:11:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:12:15 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:12:22 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:46 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:13:29 -!- levi` [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:13:30 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 09:13:30 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 09:13:30 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 09:13:56 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:59 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 09:18:57 MoALTz_ [~no@92.18.67.57] has joined #lisp 09:21:20 quantum [~quantum@unaffiliated/j-invariant] has joined #lisp 09:22:11 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@92.8.233.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:22:13 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.239.166] has joined #lisp 09:25:55 longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has joined #lisp 09:25:59 Did Lisp do anything for AI other than explore a dead end? 09:28:48 leo2007 [~leo@114.249.16.204] has joined #lisp 09:32:21 Lisp cannot do anything, since it is not sentient 09:32:45 A sentient language could create AI? 09:32:49 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 09:32:51 hasn't done anything for anyone's country, either 09:33:24 it could support enough AI to generate a stream of inane questions, I guess 09:33:45 inane jokes* 09:38:08 Gmind [~Gmind@123.16.96.53] has joined #lisp 09:43:54 -!- Gmind [~Gmind@123.16.96.53] has left #lisp 09:45:00 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:45:39 jmbr__ [~jmbr@101.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 09:47:26 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@vpn147.vpn.ucm.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:55:13 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-113-121.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:02:03 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:06:26 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:07:12 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@176.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:09:35 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 10:09:38 So whats new then 10:10:49 amb007 [~a_bakic@86.68.4.103] has joined #lisp 10:13:37 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:13:44 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 10:18:25 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:21:47 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:24:36 timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:25:03 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:32:11 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.13.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:33:30 -!- orivej [~orivej@host-49-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:36:31 usual complement of trolls about it would seem 10:38:15 orivej [~orivej@host-12-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 10:38:50 -!- fnordus [~dnall@S01060023693bfad4.va.shawcable.net] has quit 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joined #lisp 11:06:01 -!- youguy [~youguy@144.pool85-56-28.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 11:06:07 kennyd_ [~kennyd@93-138-248-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:06:45 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-115-93.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:09:11 -!- chp [~chp@2001:da8:a000:155:5eff:35ff:fe0c:c3ef] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:09:20 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.247.240] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:09:42 MoALTz [~no@92.8.247.240] has joined #lisp 11:11:21 -!- udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:14:22 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:15:25 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 11:20:14 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:21:26 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 11:25:50 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.17.75] has joined #lisp 11:26:06 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:26:53 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 11:27:05 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-126-183.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:33 -!- mgr [~mgr@mail.phinn.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:28:18 urandom__ [~user@p548A3A18.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:02 mgr [~mgr@mail.phinn.de] has joined #lisp 11:32:00 jingtao [~jingtaozf@123.120.38.107] has joined #lisp 11:33:46 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-228-42.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:35:25 gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.42] has joined #lisp 11:36:11 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.239.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:37:53 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:39:27 /? 11:40:57 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-126-183.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 11:42:38 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:43:28 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 11:45:51 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 11:46:29 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-139-187.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:02 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:49:56 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 11:51:28 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@Eider.price.clarkson.edu] has quit [Quit: kpreid] 11:52:02 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-7-80-193.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:52:25 xxxyyy [~xyxu@116.237.40.202] has joined #lisp 11:52:35 slyrus [~chatzilla@208-75-244-18.utilitytelephone.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:58 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has joined #lisp 11:55:41 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:56:15 lakatos [~istvan@c3.uaic.ro] has joined #lisp 11:56:23 Hey guys 11:56:30 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:56:31 How's it going? 11:57:46 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:40 Could someone give me a few tips? 11:59:53 lakatos: dont get too drunk. 12:00:13 lakatos: get plenty of sleep 12:00:26 lakatos: and dont forget to do up your shoelaces. 12:00:45 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:00:46 :P I'm going to work on a webapplication which wll basically consist of a Ruby on Rails frontend to interact with the user and provide information 12:00:50 :P 12:01:29 And a Lisp program running on the server which will perform some stochastic optimization based on the info provided by users 12:02:04 My question is: What is the best method to communicate between the Ruby and Lisp programs? 12:02:22 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:02:51 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 12:03:00 Is what I wrote understandable? 12:05:40 jmbr_ [~jmbr@238.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 12:06:37 I was thinking of using the beanstalk query server. Ruby would put in jobs that the Lisp application would execute and signal Ruby back on another channel that he finished 12:07:10 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:41 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@101.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:08:57 cpt_nemo_ [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 12:09:59 Also, could someone point me to a site with humorous lisp quotations or jokes? 12:13:02 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:13:34 -!- cpt_nemo_ [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:14:03 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:46 udzinari [~user@ip-89-102-12-6.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:16:46 lakatos: google for "4chan prog lisp" 12:18:14 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-126-183.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:02 Common Lispers on 4chan? Man, what a delight :P 12:19:30 it is the best 12:19:49 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@208-75-244-18.utilitytelephone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:22:58 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has joined #lisp 12:24:46 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:25:16 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 12:25:35 lakatos: http is one easy way to communicate with a Lisp system 12:26:28 it's also easy for lisp to read sexp data, so you could also send that over a socket for example 12:26:32 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-7-80-193.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:23 Yeah, I was thinking of the same thing 12:28:20 But my colleague with whom I am working with says that our product should not depend on the number crunching program being written in Lisp 12:29:15 He says that it would be better if we would make rewriting the Lisp program in another language easy 12:29:27 You could post XML over HTTP if you felt like pretending the other end isn't Lisp. 12:29:34 So we won't need to touch the Ruby code 12:29:54 ... I get the impression you're working with heathens. :D 12:30:09 Of course I told him he's crazy, which sane minded person would want to rewrite a Lisp application? 12:30:49 Yes, he is a member of the Church of Sharp. But he is learning 12:31:26 Xach: I never thought about that, actually 12:31:55 lakatos: There are many options. That's just one of 'em. 12:32:49 it's just a (ql:quickload '(hunchentoot cxml)) away. 12:32:49 Then there's the fact that s-expressions are easy to parse; using them isn't depending on Lisp... 8) 12:33:35 lakatos: json might me good intermediate format 12:33:59 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-146-89.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:19 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 12:34:23 I should really learn how to set up quickload :P 12:34:41 htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:34:48 www.quicklisp.org/beta/ has the scoop 12:34:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:20 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-157-151.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:36:56 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-139-187.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:37:09 Xach: In your blog when you talk about your Linux install blowing up... What did you mean exactly? :) 12:37:34 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:38:09 lakatos: Not lisp-related. 12:38:17 Oabl [~Oabl@167.Red-88-22-219.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:25 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 12:38:44 right, sorry 12:39:57 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@238.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:45:28 How many of you have Lisp related jobs? And how long did it take to get that job? 12:47:42 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:48:46 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 12:48:50 If you don't mind to move, have a good reputation in the open source Lisp community, it should be possible to find a job. 12:50:02 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-190.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:52:24 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:34 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:54:10 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 13:01:13 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:18 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 13:05:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:05:43 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:06:42 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:25 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-126-183.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 13:07:36 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-140-200.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:07:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:07:54 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-126-183.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:58 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:08:33 if food grows on trees why do people starve in africa 13:09:04 FedXA [~fedxa@p5B0DA356.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:09:05 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 13:09:17 quantum: Not lisp-related. 13:09:37 Gmind [~Nevermind@123.16.96.53] has joined #lisp 13:09:39 Xach: when I asked a lisp question the guy made jokes at me and called me a troll 13:09:43 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:12:51 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:13:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.249.16.204] has quit [Quit: leaves the cafe] 13:14:04 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:14:27 timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:15:53 npoektop_ [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 13:16:14 quantum, cmm said your question was innane, not quite the same thing but in the ball park 13:16:14 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:16:14 -!- npoektop_ is now known as npoektop 13:16:43 FedXA_ [~fedxa@p5B0DA356.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:17:34 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:18:03 who was it yesterday said Rainer Joswig's site had the genera 2 sources, all I saw was lisp system 78-48 sources 13:18:13 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:18:15 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:11 FedXA__ [~fedxa@p5B0DA356.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:29 already have the sources though, they're ubiquitously if irritatingly embedded in a lot of cheesy torrent sites, was looking for a statement of their license 13:19:42 -!- htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:19:43 -!- FedXA [~fedxa@p5B0DA356.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20:28 Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 13:21:20 -!- FedXA_ [~fedxa@p5B0DA356.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:23:09 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:20 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:24:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:25:54 SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:21 Church of Sharp 13:29:04 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:50 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:29:54 timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:53 -!- lifeng [~lifeng@bb116-14-235-180.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:31:46 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-126-183.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 13:33:05 -!- seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:33:14 seangrove [~user@c-98-234-242-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:17 -!- FedXA__ [~fedxa@p5B0DA356.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:34:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:35:15 silenius [~silenus@p4FC23A03.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:54 -!- glidesurfer [~rosario@77-64-171-36.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:00 sellout [~Adium@port-87-193-163-220.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:47 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:38:25 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:39:21 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:41:08 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:46 htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 13:46:37 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:47:25 quantum: because they spend their time making war. 13:47:33 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:47:57 timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:29 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:52 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:51:48 -!- htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [] 13:55:33 gst [~gst@w-albuq-9-12.7cities.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:56 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:00:26 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04:20 -!- gst [~gst@w-albuq-9-12.7cities.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:28 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.192] has joined #lisp 14:06:41 DocOnDev [~doc@cpe-24-166-73-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:08:57 tauntaun [~Crumpet@64.134.66.17] has joined #lisp 14:09:57 computer programming is a lot like magic 14:13:32 Indeed. 14:13:41 minion: tell quantum about spels 14:13:41 quantum: have a look at spels: Casting SPELs in Lisp, an introduction to macros, is at http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 14:13:52 minion: tell quantum about sicp 14:13:53 quantum: please see sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 14:13:59 hehe 14:14:05 SICP is my favorite 14:14:12 kpreid [~kpreid@Eider.price.clarkson.edu] has joined #lisp 14:14:26 tippenein [~chatzilla@97.65.218.4] has joined #lisp 14:16:34 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.8.10] has joined #lisp 14:16:47 -!- chxane [~chxane@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:17:37 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.239.166] has joined #lisp 14:18:28 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.47.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:21:11 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-173648.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:23:33 -!- ASau` [~user@93-80-218-22.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:40 zmv [~daniel@c934ad95.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:25:54 ASau` [~user@95-24-140-205.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:33:19 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:33:51 morphling_ [~stefan@gssn-5f755dad.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:33 JuanDaugherty: Is it not a good term for the mindless zealots of Microsoft? :P 14:36:42 Oh, sorry, kinda off-topic 14:37:00 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755dad.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:13 -!- tank_ [~spmcnamar@adsl-75-21-87-212.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: tank_] 14:37:58 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:39:42 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:12 timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:40:31 lakatos, no doubt it is 14:41:19 -!- sellout [~Adium@port-87-193-163-220.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:41:26 fortunately it's a waning platform, though not fast enough 14:42:29 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:42:37 sellout [~Adium@port-87-193-163-220.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:03 -!- sellout is now known as Guest7311 14:44:38 Landr [4e17d585@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.23.213.133] has joined #lisp 14:44:41 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-140-191-171.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:53 ok, so a variable is a binding between a name and a value. a name is a binding between an identifier and an object or another binding... correct? 14:46:50 -!- Guest7311 [~Adium@port-87-193-163-220.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:47:03 sellout [~Adium@port-87-193-163-220.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:06 Landr: a name is a name. 14:47:17 but what is a name? a binding 14:47:22 Landr: a name is not a binding. 14:47:37 >name n., v.t. 1. n. an identifier by which an object, a binding, or an exit point is referred to by association using a binding. 14:47:38 Landr: in CL, symbols are often used to be the name part of a binding. 14:48:04 yes, but they don't have to be, right? 14:48:25 They can be used for other things. 14:49:30 well, regardless, a name is a binding between an identifier (which can be anything that can serve as an identifier, including symbols) and an object or a binding... yes? 14:50:22 No. 14:50:25 :( 14:50:30 in that case I give up 14:51:20 From what I understand the name is the identifier 14:51:22 -!- Oabl [~Oabl@167.Red-88-22-219.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Oabl] 14:51:47 and depending from the context/scope what it is binded to changes 14:52:09 Landr: are you familiar with hash tables? 14:52:13 yes 14:52:29 Landr: you could think of a binding as a key => value mapping, and a name as the key. 14:52:37 Landr: it isn't accurate to say "A key is a key => value mapping." 14:52:55 ah, so the name is the x in H(x) -> y of a hash table? 14:54:19 Sort of. 14:55:02 *Landr* giggles 14:55:16 "sort of" is thus far the closest I've ever gotten to someone saying "you're right" in this channel 14:55:21 :> progress! 14:56:05 Ceci n'est pas une pipe 14:56:55 signifiant et signifié, vous dites 14:58:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-36.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:58:59 so, a symbol has a name... given the name you can get the symbol, given the symbol you can get the name... symbols can be used as names only, in which case their value-slot can be bound to a value... if this binding to a value is done in the variable namespace, the symbol is known as a "variable" 14:59:18 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:59:23 No. 14:59:43 :( 15:00:30 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:37 <_3b> symbols have names, which are strings, given the name and a package in which the symbol is accessible, you can get the symbol 15:00:43 <_3b> given a symbol, you can get its name 15:00:48 a variable is a binding in the variable namespace, a binding is an association between a name and a value, a name is a symbol 15:00:54 <_3b> symbols can be used to name other things 15:01:03 Be careful: Down this path lies the assertion that all symbols must be bound, and have themselves as their value. 15:01:03 <_3b> one of those things is 'variable bindings' 15:01:21 nyef: well, they don't have to be bound, but they do need names, right? 15:01:23 <_3b> a variable binding can be either lexical or dynamic scope 15:01:28 Landr: Lisp in Small Pieces gives a nice overview of binding. 15:01:44 i just want to understand the terminology :< 15:01:49 Landr: Somewhere in the hyperspec is the unfortunate assertion that a symbol is a binding. :-/ 15:02:24 well, a symbol can be unbound 15:03:21 Yes, but not by this interpretation. 15:03:38 So, as I said, be careful, some of the conclusions that can be drawn are horribly, horribly wrong. 15:04:15 xan_ [~xan@64.197.211.195] has joined #lisp 15:04:15 this'd be a lot easier if i had a diagram of what things are actual lisp "objects", and what things are just descriptions of those objects 15:04:53 <_3b> actual objects: strings, symbols, functions, numbers, characters, ... 15:05:11 <_3b> not actual objects: names, bindings 15:05:44 Heh. Here's where coming to lisp by way of emulation helped me: I started by writing a lisp machine instruction set emulator in C, so I got very familiar with the in-memory layouts of various bits of one particular lisp system. 15:05:52 <_3b> actual parts of objects: symbol names, symbol value, mapping of names to symbols in packages 15:06:01 <_3b> (packages are actual objects too) 15:06:23 <_3b> symbol is an object, it has a name, which is a string 15:06:42 <_3b> a binding is not an object, it has a name which is a symbol, and a value, which is an arbitrary object 15:07:13 so, if I type a string into the REPL... it checks if that string is bound in some namespace (so whether the string is a name, and refers to an object) and if so, it returns the object this name is bound to? 15:07:19 You're standing on sketchy ground there, as bindings actually -are- objects in some implementations. 15:07:50 <_3b> if you type a /string/ into the repl, it just returns that string,s ince strings are self-evaluating 15:07:59 colazero [~colazero@www5054u.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:08:15 Just because most implementations use shallow binding for special variables doesn't mean that there can't be literal binding objects in some implementations. 15:08:25 <_3b> if you type a series of characters which READs as a valid symbol, the reader uses the characters to build a string, which is used to look up a symbol in the current package 15:08:26 -!- longfin [~longfin@211.187.37.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:28 (Although they'd probably be CONSes.) 15:08:38 yes well, i meant that 15:09:02 <_3b> then when that symbol is evaluated, depending on the context, it might be interpreted as the name of a binding 15:09:15 <_3b> (or rather when teh form containing the symbol is evaluated) 15:09:36 MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.242.254] has joined #lisp 15:10:58 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:09 timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:12:01 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-7-80-193.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:12:13 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@123.16.96.53] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:44 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.247.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:12:48 pem [~pem@123.116.219.26] has joined #lisp 15:13:41 -!- lanthan [~ze@46.253.54.75] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:13:51 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:07 timor [~timor@port-92-195-29-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:15:14 -!- pem [~pem@123.116.219.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:45 leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has joined #lisp 15:17:24 hmm, ok thanks, onwards once more to enlightenment! 15:17:31 -!- Landr [4e17d585@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.23.213.133] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:17:32 -!- xxxyyy [~xyxu@116.237.40.202] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:18:26 If you want to know what sort of things are "real" objects, in a way, there's nothing quite like looking for documentation on the in-memory representation of data. 15:25:09 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:35 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 15:26:42 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:33:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-36.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:34:00 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.250.108] has joined #lisp 15:40:17 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.250.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:17 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:40:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:40:34 jweiss_ [~user@197.sub-174-252-145.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:19 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.192] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 15:43:14 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:44:13 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.250.108] has joined #lisp 15:44:35 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:48:33 -!- CrazyEddy [~undeliber@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:51:46 jweiss__ [~user@172.sub-174-252-148.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:59 -!- jweiss_ [~user@197.sub-174-252-145.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:53:12 nyef: is there some good read on that? 15:57:41 udzinari: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/explorer/SSDN2/sect07.txt is one, http://library.isr.ist.utl.pt/docs/encycmuclopedia/doc/impl/dave-memory-layout.ps is another, http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git/blob/HEAD:/doc/internals/objects-in-memory.texinfo is a third, http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git/blob/HEAD:/src/compiler/generic/objdef.lisp is some actual source code for the layouts for a particular implementation. 15:58:17 -!- jweiss__ [~user@172.sub-174-252-148.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:58:26 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 15:58:26 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 15:58:26 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:58:56 urandom_ [~user@p548A3A18.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:27 nyef: thanks, will have someting interesting to read now! :) 15:59:44 -!- Mekanik [~vov@91.79.49.4] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 16:00:33 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3A18.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:01:22 udzinari: There's a pile of related stuff in SBCL's SYS:SRC;COMPILER;GENERIC directory, too. 16:04:04 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:32 -!- orivej_ [~orivej@host-108-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:08:51 orivej [~orivej@host-113-146-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined 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17:37:35 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-184-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:38:16 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 17:38:48 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.239.166] has joined #lisp 17:39:55 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@p5B0C75C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:54 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:51 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 17:45:18 -!- Spion [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:48:25 -!- tauntaun [~Crumpet@64.134.66.17] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:49:18 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:19 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:32 clhs ~/ 17:52:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm 17:52:40 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@187.58.88.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:54:41 nyef: I was going to point you to Didier Vernas XFORMAT, but it doesnt seem to be online  17:55:09 And this would help in the context of SBCL maintenance, how? 17:56:06 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 17:57:27 nyef: Well, he does want implementations to make changes so that it works better ;) 17:59:30 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:54 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:02:08 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 18:04:32 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-190.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:05:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:22 -!- leo2007 [~leo@2402:f000:5:2901:225:4bff:fea9:b9e4] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:09:58 sellout: thanks for making the emacs solarized color theme (: 18:10:03 saved me a bunch of work (: 18:10:36 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:10:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-22-64-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:38 antifuchs: Glad it's useful :) 18:13:03 antifuchs: Admittedly, my contribution was pretty minimal. 18:13:29 I imagine looking up the various faces that look out of place would have been tedious 18:13:32 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:13:32 (at least for me) (: 18:13:47 antifuchs: True  but that part is still in progress :) 18:13:54 yes, indeed (: 18:14:11 I mostly just switch between a few different color themes, then back to solarized, and fix what's nasty. 18:14:27 pnq [~nick@ACA46C7B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:34 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:42 is it a dark or a light one? 18:24:45 there's two variants 18:26:58 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:31:46 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:02 Bronsa [~brace@host119-185-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:32:11 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:32:34 -!- MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz 18:34:43 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@86.68.4.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:42:30 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 18:45:00 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934ad95.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:49:05 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-126-183.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:52:02 *udzinari* loves zenburn theme 18:52:19 htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 18:55:24 -!- htierno [~htierno@108-100-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:44 tcr1: http://ethanschoonover.com/solarized  that doesn't have the emacs stuff, but you can get a good sense of it. 18:56:26 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.209.49] has joined #lisp 18:56:44 lanthan [~ze@p54B7D519.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:24 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-91-197.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 18:57:37 lispm [~lispm@g224047051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:44 ... and it's easy to place into Emacs. yay! 18:57:51 -!- lanthan [~ze@p54B7D519.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:58:03 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:47 lanthan [~ze@p54B7D519.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:06 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:04:07 Hunh. Solarized seems pretty neat. 19:06:27 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA46C7B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:08:10 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 19:09:35 -!- PoBreII [4d5ebc61@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.94.188.97] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:15:42 zmv [~daniel@c934ad95.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 19:17:11 hefner [~hefner@c-69-255-57-56.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:44 -!- superjudge [~mjl@c83-250-110-188.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:21:19 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:23:17 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Some days you are the pigeon, other days the statue.] 19:24:41 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-125-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:24:42 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-125-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:55 yes, I'm impressed 19:28:33 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:51 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:30:23 -!- museun [~what@c-98-252-140-73.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:30:59 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:32:05 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:33:06 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:36 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-82-87-23.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:45:59 the dark variant is seriously nice 19:46:14 now /me wants it everywhere 19:49:14 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.250.108] has joined #lisp 19:50:16 -!- steevy [~steevy@95-89-218-109-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Bye?] 19:50:23 -!- steevy_ [~steevy@95-89-218-109-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Bye?] 19:50:35 if one could write a gtk theme with solarized colors, it would be really cool 19:51:22 pnkfelix 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[~user@109.130.83.146] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:13 alama [~alama@212.33.65.26] has joined #lisp 20:24:37 -!- tippenein [~chatzilla@97.65.218.4] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401080539]] 20:24:52 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@203-158-32-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:29:13 amb007 [~a_bakic@86.68.4.7] has joined #lisp 20:29:21 iaindalton [~user@host-72-174-169-102.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-10.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:30:10 dbelange [~dbelange@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 20:30:17 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-119-109.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:30:20 http://jerkcity.com/jerkcity4506.gif 20:31:56 dbelange: That's not even valid! 20:32:59 I know right 20:33:06 it should have been defun 20:33:38 -!- bj0ern [~bpaschen@a89-183-85-165.net-htp.de] has quit [Quit: bj0ern] 20:34:18 Joreji 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BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 20:51:33 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:35 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-89-124.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:51:46 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-249-163.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:54:45 tauntaun [~Crumpet@64.202.138.67] has joined #lisp 20:54:47 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:02 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-89-124.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:54 is the common lisp cookbook project still active or did it die? 20:58:15 Landr: what's the latest change? 20:58:24 from when dates* 20:58:31 bottom of the page says 2007... lemme check 20:58:50 2007-11-01 20:58:51 Changed Alberto's address 20:58:51 Updated link section 20:59:24 also it seems most of the activity was between 2002-2003 21:00:37 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:00:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:00:58 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-180-202.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Rebooting to resize my root filesystem.] 21:01:48 Landr: Well, that's all since the most recent version of the spec, so it should still be valid ;) 21:02:06 but... it's a cookbook o_O not a spec 21:02:24 i mean, "are people still contributing to it, or have they wandered off to other projects" 21:02:50 Landr: ;) <- means "joking" 21:03:11 *Landr* writes this down for the future :P 21:03:22 -!- alama [~alama@212.33.65.26] has quit [Quit: alama] 21:03:35 I don't think I've ever looked into the cookbook 21:03:35 koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 21:07:17 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 21:08:08 SeanTAllen [~SeanTAlle@cpe-98-14-83-126.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:12 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:09:22 sbahra 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xach: it's drew crampsie's implementation of a functional btree and object persisistence. it's really cool (so far) but frrom what i can see the implementation is incomplete in several places 23:36:35 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:36:36 twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:57 Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:00 Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:07 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:18 faulevel [~hpd@static.6.236.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 23:37:19 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 23:37:56 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 23:37:56 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 23:37:56 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 23:38:25 jabirali [~jabirali@monty.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 23:39:00 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-173648.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:39:03 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:45 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 23:39:50 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:40:27 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:19 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 23:41:51 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 23:43:51 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.7.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:44:23 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.143.20] has joined #lisp 23:45:11 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@75-175-89-124.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:45:23 An implementation actually doesn't have to treat (find item sequence :test nil) the same as (find item sequence :test #'eql) and (find item sequence), right? I always thought that was the case but apparently that only holds for :key only... 23:46:01 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@75-175-89-124.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:07 -!- Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-32-125-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:53 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:49:22 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:49:48 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:49:49 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-0-92.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:11 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-164-208.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:50:14 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:50:40 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:50:40 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:50:40 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:51:07 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@125-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:51:07 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@web30.webfaction.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:51:07 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:51:07 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:51:07 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:51:32 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:51:52 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-125-145.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:52 -!- ilmari [ilmari@knuth.ping.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:51:58 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:51:58 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:51:58 -!- mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:52:00 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:11 Hexstream: indeed, :test nil and no :test are not the same. 23:52:11 arbscht_ [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 23:52:11 -!- arbscht_ [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Changing host] 23:52:11 arbscht_ [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 23:52:13 For :test arguments, nil should signal an error. 23:52:13 since it must be a function designator and nil is not. 23:52:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-22-64-192-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:52:19 Koven [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:52:23 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 23:52:24 -!- Koven is now known as Kovensky 23:52:26 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:52:27 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:30 ilmari [ilmari@knuth.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 23:52:32 splittist2 [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 23:52:32 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-164-208.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:33 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:52:33 -!- vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-osesrwiaebfjgekd] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:52:40 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 23:52:40 [df]_ [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 23:52:40 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:52:43 em_ [~em@user-0cev0hn.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:44 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 23:52:44 zbigniew_ [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 23:52:45 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 23:52:48 mpereira [~mpereira@ec2-50-16-8-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:50 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:52:50 gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has joined #lisp 23:52:55 -!- Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:52:55 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8E98.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:53:00 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:07 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-axvezcfcfujipovd] has joined #lisp 23:53:12 Bucciarati [~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:12 Yeah, so time for a SBCL bug report. The current behavior might lead one to inadvertently make his code non-portable. 23:53:23 I don't find where it's said that :key nil correspond to identity, but we can assume that's it. In anycase, clhs find explicitely allows :key nil. 23:53:27 Guest9099 [~swoog@125-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:16 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:54:23 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 23:55:29 -!- muhdick [~qle@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:40 muhdick [~qle@www.kiofc.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:58 CrazyEddy [~hypocondy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:56:05 milkpost [~milkpost@web30.webfaction.com] has joined #lisp 23:56:17 cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has joined #lisp 23:56:24 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.131.67] has quit [Changing host] 23:56:24 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 23:58:25 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 23:59:03 -!- em_ [~em@user-0cev0hn.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: As a wild ass in the desert go I forth to my work] 23:59:14 benny [~benny@i577A8E98.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:59:21 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 23:59:57 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.250.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:59:57 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]