00:00:28 So, rather than adding optional/key args I might just as well pass along *NON-GLOBAL-RANDOM-STATE* to RANDOM instead? 00:01:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:57 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-141-203.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:02:03 the eval-when is fine 00:02:52 but yeah, any fresh random state should do 00:02:55 antifuchs: So *random-state* is only rebound while file is loading/compling? 00:03:04 there is no rebinding going on. 00:03:08 the term is setting. 00:04:21 the spec says rebinding ... B/c I'm not OK with the semantics of eval-when i'm (in part) trying to understand the extent of the eval-when form :) 00:04:29 the eval-when is there to set *random-state* also when compiling. 00:04:32 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@154.sub-75-203-3.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:35 antifuchs: feel free to send a patch for opticl that has the proper incantation of allegro's cltl2:variable-information :) 00:05:36 pnq [~nick@AC8219A8.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:08 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-141-203.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:26 -!- splittist [~splittist@174.118.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:09:21 antifuchs: Thanks for helping to clarify that for me. (: 00:10:57 slyrus: was that related to the discussion just now? 00:10:59 I'm confused 00:11:12 antifuchs: nope 00:11:18 ah, ok ((: 00:11:38 a complete non-sequitur 00:13:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:14:12 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 00:14:37 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:51 -!- zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:17:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:43 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:19:58 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:20 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:04 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.170.110] has joined #lisp 00:26:01 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:27:26 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:04 tronador_ [~guille@190.66.191.25] has joined #lisp 00:34:12 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:35:00 xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has joined #lisp 00:36:47 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:36:55 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:15 -!- shaunren [~shaun@bas2-cooksville17-1279412276.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40:27 -!- Sprayzor [529f73ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.159.115.173] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 00:40:28 "does it use list structures as data?" no. "so if you want to compute with sums and products you have to parse every time"? [interviewer nods] <- what does John McCarthy mean by that last question? 00:40:38 that was in an interview for infoQ 00:40:50 he was being asked about Ruby. 00:41:19 -!- davazp [~user@201.Red-88-6-204.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:34 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 00:47:01 Ask in the Ruby channel? ;P 00:47:43 -!- spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-134-153.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: .] 00:49:19 :) 00:49:30 but I don't understand what he means by that question, though 00:50:04 You're probably giving too little context for an informed answer to be arrived at. 00:51:56 pevaneyn1 [~pevaneyn@77.109.101.132] has joined #lisp 00:51:56 -!- pevaneyn [~pevaneyn@77.109.101.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:52:35 Hexstream: you'd be surprised. that's really most of it. I can give the whole transcript, holdon 00:53:31 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.148.113] has joined #lisp 00:54:09 rien: I think he might be thinking in terms of outdated concepts (: 00:54:13 Hexstream: verbatim transcript: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120301 00:54:14 I'm guessing that something is passing raw text strings representing mathematical expressions around, so any time you want to compute something with those you have to do your own parsing again and output another raw text string representing a solution, instead of just dealing in s-expressions the whole time after the READing like Lisp does. 00:55:03 rien: dunno if it's relevant, but Ruby MRI <=1.8.x had this weird interpreter that executed the code by walking the AST 00:55:12 also, the interviewer nodded but is mistaken: ruby parses source files once 00:55:21 antifuchs: I was thinking the same 00:55:42 but like p_l|home said (and I wasn't aware of), maybe that's why the interviewer nodded 00:55:50 I have no idea how he got from the first question to the second 00:55:55 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.171] has joined #lisp 00:56:02 1.9 MRI and all the other RubyVMs use bytecode 00:56:22 antifuchs: the video is a bit edited and there are cuts but that part was one full shot (the second question). it was weird indeed 00:56:38 i hear mccarthy's brain works in weird ways 00:56:42 possibly age-related (: 00:57:13 he was talking about his elephant idea. I was impressed a man his age can still reason about programming languages. :) 00:58:38 I guess it's like riding a bicycle (: 00:59:42 or an elephant 01:00:19 twb [~twb@office.cybersource.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:00:33 What's that sig that defines U (or Y?) using only the lambda symbol (and parens)? 01:00:56 -!- muhdick [~qle@74-92-196-145-Atlanta.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:01:34 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:15 I don't know what a "sig" is but... The lambda calculus? 01:02:45 *ilmari* guesses it's an e-mail/usenet signature 01:02:47 sig as in an email signature, a fortune cookie 01:03:34 It looks like this "(lambda (lambda) (lambda lambda (lambda (lambda) (lambda lambda))))" 01:03:47 ...only it actually defines one of the combinators 01:03:51 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:04:08 I'm too dumb to just write it myself, and I didn't keep a copy last time I saw it 01:04:52 That reminds me of the badger badger song. 01:05:25 I can visualise an infinite number of Johns McCarthys popping up to the tune. 01:05:54 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:05:56 malkovic, malkovic malkovic. malkovic malkovic, malkovic malkoivic. malkovic! 01:06:17 antifuchs: when has his brain ever been normal? 01:06:25 nefo [~nefo@202.112.3.6] has joined #lisp 01:06:25 -!- nefo [~nefo@202.112.3.6] has quit [Changing host] 01:06:25 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 01:06:29 and I mean that in a good way 01:06:59 basho___ [~basho__@p4FDA6FE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:17 reading his paper/essay collection is pretty interesting 01:07:52 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 01:08:16 rien: Is there more of the transcript (whole interview perhaps) available to read? 01:08:37 antoszka: I don't believe so. 01:08:43 -!- basho__ [~basho__@p4FDA6E20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:08:47 antoszka: http://www.infoq.com/interviews/mccarthy-elephant-2000 01:09:06 flow3r [~flow3r@61.111.10.20] has joined #lisp 01:09:07 antoszka: you have the questions there and they're clickable, but the answers aren't transcribed I think 01:09:07 twb: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-up-to-lambda-calculus/ 01:09:12 thx 01:13:45 cl-parser-combiners looks awesome. 01:13:53 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-5d871d57.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 01:14:52 -!- jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:14:58 And also readily portable to elisp, though it'll need a few modifications. 01:15:27 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:16:28 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 01:16:44 -!- Teeko [~Teeko@162.Red-88-22-219.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 01:17:42 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 01:20:54 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.172] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:22:28 jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has joined #lisp 01:24:07 hello everyone 01:24:30 regarding the question about ruby, wasn't he just pointing out that Ruby isn't homoiconic? 01:25:14 I read an anecdote that had him making a similar point about Python at a conference. 01:25:37 tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:59 -!- Soulman [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 01:26:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:28:29 rootlocus: hmm you should find that python reference so that we can compare 01:28:42 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.47] has joined #lisp 01:28:46 rien: i'm just trying to :) 01:29:20 cool :) I'll brb 01:30:25 rien: http://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/2008/02/ooh-ooh-my-turn-why-lisp.html towards the end 01:30:52 -!- basho___ [~basho__@p4FDA6FE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:33:02 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 01:33:28 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33:46 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 01:36:01 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@187.114.120.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:36:51 -!- fisted_ [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:38:49 -!- jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:42:01 fisted [~fisted@unaffiliated/fisted] has joined #lisp 01:43:02 bhyde [~user@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:29 *rien* clicks and reads 01:46:50 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:47:35 jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has joined #lisp 01:48:02 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 01:50:45 well i just needed another blog post on why to learn lisp ^^ 01:52:40 I'll admit that Kenny was the final straw that made me go for CL, but the thing he advocated so much turned out to be a bust (a project of his) 01:53:10 rootlocus: that's beautiful. thanks. 01:54:26 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:54:29 I feel the same regarding Paul Graham and Arc ;P 01:54:40 -!- jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:53 -!- masonium [~user@vpn.tgsmc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56:59 Hexstream: yeah, but at least you can see quickly that Arc is nowhere close, while Cells will make you frustrated endlessly trying to compile it 01:57:14 -!- tessier_ [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:57:39 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:58:03 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 01:58:19 Ah, that project. It's at least interesting in concept, IMHO dataflow is one of the most under-appreciated paradigms in CS today. 02:00:11 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-167-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 02:01:34 Hexstream: Haskell is high on reactive programming nowadays 02:02:16 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 02:02:25 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:02:25 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 02:03:38 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-172-213.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:06:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:08:01 better than reactionary programming, i guess (: 02:14:08 pearle [~user@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 02:14:13 Hexstream: Turing equivalence of lambda calculus stands on one page IIRC (thanks to McCarthy). 02:14:34 It's nice and fun to compile to lambda calculus, but it's useless to prove Turing equivalence. 02:15:34 Uh. Ok. I don't see why you're telling that to me right now. 02:15:51 Because I'm late. <02:09:07> twb: http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-up-to-lambda-calculus/ 02:15:53 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-218.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:16:24 I was linking to that article only for the Y combinator in the image, which I think is what twb was requesting. 02:16:45 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:17:16 -!- bhyde [~user@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:17:41 Hexstream: oh, IMAGE 02:17:43 God, my brain hurts trying to understand how do-notation in cl-parser-combiners works. 02:17:50 Hexstream: I don't see images by default, which is why I didn't see the point of the link 02:17:55 I've been doing imperative programming too long. 02:18:27 twb: Argh. I kinda had the idea of saying explicitly: "Look at the image at the top of that article." 02:18:55 In any case, the .sig I was thinking of was like that, except it has only , no f or x or anything 02:18:59 -!- pearle [~user@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has left #lisp 02:19:27 Why do we have a destructuring-bind, but not a destructuring-setq? 02:19:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-218.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:19:42 quotemstr: doesn't setf approximate that? 02:19:43 quotemstr: Actually, I'm working on something like that. 02:20:06 Er, ignore that 02:20:10 Hexstream: I implemented a destructuring-setq for my Lisp a while ago. It works fine. 02:20:26 Hexstream: I'm just surprised it's not included in CL, especially since it's nontrivial to implement. 02:20:49 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:49 quotemstr: Can I see your version? 02:21:20 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:21:35 Hexstream: If I ever clean it up. The gist of the idea is to just re-use lambda-list processing, but not actually create any new variable bindings. 02:22:05 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:22:18 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 02:22:28 quotemstr: you might want to include it in Alexandria then. 02:23:00 pjb: It was written in C++ for a vaguely CL-like Lisp-1 with a tree-walking interpreter. 02:23:04 I doubt it'd be useful. :-) 02:23:33 Yeah. I'll be using that for a looping construct that incorporates, among other things, destructuring. It's the only instance I can think of where destructuring-setq would be useful, though, which may explain why it's not in the standard. 02:23:46 quotemstr: don't you know about macros? 02:23:54 Hexstream: I just had destructuring everywhere. 02:24:03 pjb: Like I said, I reused the lambda-list logic. 02:24:21 pjb: And it generated a compiler-macro, essentially. 02:24:26 Which is the obvious thing to do ;P 02:24:40 Well no. The obvious thing is to write a macro in lisp. 02:25:00 The obvious thing was "reusing the lambda-list logic". 02:25:12 vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.112.163.78] has joined #lisp 02:26:09 pearle [~pearle@blk-224-181-222.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 02:26:17 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:26:44 (defmacro destructuring-setq (lambda-list expression) (let ((temps (loop repeat (length lambda-list) collect (gensym)))) `(destructuring-bind ,temps ,expression (setq ,@(mapcar (function list) lambda-list temps))))) 02:27:14 is a q&d first approximation. It's rather trivial to parse the lambda-list to collect only the wanted variables. 02:27:26 (Well, I mean, I have already that implemented in a library). 02:27:42 On Lisp has an implementation for destructuring-bind.. you can write a destructuring-setq without much trouble with its help (and maybe the book already has something like it, I don't remember) 02:28:37 pjb: Parsing a lambda-list is annoying, and your solution is inefficient because you create variable bindings that you just throw away. 02:28:45 pjb: That only works for trivial lambda lists with only required parameters... 02:29:06 pjb: You *can* do it that way, sure. 02:29:13 And why not #'list instead of (function list)? 02:30:08 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:30:20 I like smooth parentheses better than pointy and sharp # and '. 02:30:40 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:31:19 ... Gratuitous alienation of most of the CL community ;P 02:31:40 Be happy I wasn't in caps-lock mood. 02:32:29 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-141-203.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:32:45 troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:26 Anyway, an implementation of destructuring-setq in terms of destructuring-bind seems simplistic and broken right off the bat, I'd say ;P Doing it "right" this way is basically as involved as just reimplementing the destructuring-bind part, and inherently less efficient since you need to use temporary variables. 02:34:59 Hexstream: the compiler can optimize out temporary variables without even thinking about it! 02:35:51 Depends on the implementation, I guess. Regardless, you have to find the actual variables in the structure, which involves full parsing of destructuring lambda syntax. 02:36:29 Which as I said, is trivial. (= already implemented in my libraries). 02:37:30 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-168320.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:38:04 Anyways, it also means that we shouldn't care if quotemstr's destructuring-setq is implemented in C++ and essentially lost for humanity, because it's trivial to implement in lisp, if it was needed. 02:38:12 gko [~gko@111.83.138.69] has joined #lisp 02:38:56 Can I see your implementation? (and I don't understand why it's implemented in your libraries, plural, as presumably you'd implement it once and then depend on it...) 02:39:29 http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=tree&p=public/lisp&h=c20e5a2a463539eac9142860c345e0a4afa97873&hb=a78d355f14d88a86e420a63e6d2116587b006975&f=common-lisp/lisp-sexp 02:39:38 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 02:40:18 Once upon a time, there was a single library, but then it seemed that people prefered small mono-function libraries rather than all encompassing ones. So now there's serveral .asd files. 02:43:31 Ah, my eyes!! You use "UPPERCASE-EXPORTS"-style. 02:43:58 That's conforming, and works on all the conforming implementations. 02:44:24 rme [~rme@pool-68-238-4-125.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:42 Hexstream: notice that a non-conforming implementation can always redefine DEFPACKAGE to match its preferences. 02:44:48 #:nice-exports is conforming and works on all conforming implementations too... 02:45:00 Again, I don't like pointy and sharp #. 02:45:14 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:45:34 But if I used #:symbols, you'd complain about the GPL. 02:45:40 What, you're afraid of skewing your hands on them or something? 02:46:00 pjb: I'd like to test that theory. 02:46:09 :-) 02:48:55 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:57 Eh. If I had to describe your coding style in one word: "HEAVYWEIGHT" (caps lock string mandatory). 02:50:33 -!- rolando [~user@24.91.166.178.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:50:34 orakawbe-ll?? 02:51:38 Yes. 02:51:59 Hexstream: it's free software, you can make a derived work if you want. Keep it GPL! 02:52:17 This is a seriously Java-like style, I hope you'll reconsidered. I thought I over-engineered things too much, but you beat me on that front! 02:52:35 It works, I don't intend to touch it anymore. 02:52:36 reconsider* 02:52:58 I hope you intend to destructively modify your style, if it's not done already. 02:53:22 Try to implement the same functionality. 02:54:31 I did. Well, not for all types of lambda lists, only a more powerful variant of DESTRUCTURING-BIND. 02:54:41 Right. 02:54:56 It's not released yet, I have more features and polishing to do. 02:54:59 Actually, this package taught me that CLOS allows you to write really concise code. 02:55:30 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 02:55:53 Why the huge barrage of DEFMETHODs? Is it in the hope of automagical extensibility and flexibility? 02:56:08 pbj: the strange class names (orak-ll and so on) are systematically-named after the components of the lambda list, right? 02:56:17 Yes. 02:56:18 That code is anything but concise... 02:56:40 pjb: sorry, meant pjb not pbj 02:56:47 Hexstream: Try to implement the same functionality. 02:57:20 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:29 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:57:34 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:58:18 pjb: and they are not publicly exposed... I think it's actually pretty nicely done. The code is laid out very cleanly and systematically 02:58:28 rootlocus: thanks :-) 02:58:37 pjb: Damnit, well, in a few weeks I'll show you my DESTRUCTURING-BIND*, which implements much more functionnality than DESTRUCTURING-BIND and in about 650 lines. 02:58:58 Of pretty clear code, I might add. 02:59:24 :D 02:59:43 Hexstream: yes, but destructuring-bind deals only with a single lambda list. 02:59:59 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bxbmzgggjzmybzds] has joined #lisp 03:00:02 In less than twice your LoC, I deal with all the lambda lists. 03:00:24 pjb: Uh. You do realize that all those lambda-lists share only the same core? 03:00:31 share all the same* 03:01:12 Adding the possibility of an &environment parameter and stuff is not exactly rocket-science. 03:01:22 Provided you have a sane architecture. 03:02:40 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Quit: brennanc] 03:04:57 Dealing with all types of lambda lists would take me maybe 700 lines? I don't know... Anyway. I'll be sure to get back to you in a few weeks ;P 03:05:19 Hexstream: I don't remember the details of my code, but I hope that common functionality is factorized higher in the class hierarchy. Otherwise, what would have been the point? 03:06:53 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 03:07:28 I don't see that as a problem suitable for classes or object-orientation... The core concept should be a state-machine. Everything is very simple with that approach. What I did is basically an explicit list of states I can jump to when I see a lambda list keyword. That's the basic concept. 03:09:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:09:43 State-machines look to me like assembler, in most cases. 03:10:31 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:11:01 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 03:11:08 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:55 pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120305 03:12:09 Hmm. Ccl, clisp, and ecl aren't very accurate for (atanh #c(1d-3 1d4)). 03:12:33 pjb: They're a great concept to think in in some cases. Like this one. 03:13:48 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 03:14:38 Well, I guess I could shrink 30 or 60 lines with some macrology. 03:15:01 not to mention deleting some comments :) 03:15:42 *rme* is not looking at atanh any more today. 03:15:45 pjb: No, no. Please don't use macros to reduce the surface effects of your over-engineering. 03:15:55 :-) 03:16:38 tritchey [~tritchey@154.sub-75-203-3.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:17:21 If you seriously look at lambda lists and immediately think: "OMG, there's an obvious class hierarchy in there!", you have some brain reprogramming to do ;) 03:18:40 Yes, there are classes everywhere :-) 03:20:19 And I don't think the sort of "inherent extensibility" you seem to be trying to get at with this barrage of DEFMETHODs and stuff is anything but illusory. Even no extensibility is better than illusory extensibility. 03:21:52 CL is multiparadigm. You're free to dislike OO. 03:22:09 Well, he appears to like actors. 03:22:38 On my part, my bet is that method dispatch may be faster than assoc or gethash. 03:22:44 If anything, not offering any extensibility in the first version is "more extensible" than having false extensibility because then, nobody will produce convoluted extensions (if it's even possible), so you won't have to support those extensions when you do introduce nice clean well thought-out extensibility. 03:23:48 -!- beach [~user@116.118.74.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:23:55 pjb: You're using the wrong approach for the wrong reasons :( 03:24:13 Hex; I do not see much in the way of constructive criticism here. 03:24:44 Zhivago: In what sense? What do you see? 03:25:07 Mainly incoherent shouting. 03:25:29 Since when? 03:25:48 Well, that's pretty much all that I see on this page. 03:26:10 I suggest that you start with the premise that pjb has some reason for doing what he is doing, and finding out what it is. 03:26:34 I did both. 03:26:51 Then you can see if his reasoning is inconsistent. 03:27:04 timepilot [~timepilot@99-27-216-74.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:16 A reasoning that is consistent is not necessarily good. 03:27:38 Neither is trying to force people to do things your way. 03:28:00 Who's trying to force who to do things which way? 03:28:09 On point is that parsing is not the whole story. You need to deal with the results of parsing. If you provide a bare sexp as result of parsing a sexp, you've not make much progress either. I provide classes for the results of the parsing, so you can use it easily defining a few methods. 03:28:46 Hex: You appear to be. 03:29:06 Zhivago: Like I "appear to be" incoherent, I guess. 03:30:16 pjb: I'll admit that my current implementation of DESTRUCTURING-BIND* fuses the parsing with the semantics, which is not a good thing. 03:30:22 pjb: Well, you could re-invent dispatch upon message destructuring :) 03:30:23 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:31:39 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:00 The awkward part there is determining the most applicable method. 03:32:18 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 03:32:25 Though if you look back at my paste, I think all I'd have to do is let the user provide his own lambdas. 03:32:29 -!- troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:32:57 Mapping them to classes will impose the constraints required to do that, at some expense in flexibility. 03:33:10 can anyone give me a hint on why hunchentoot-test isn't working for me anymore? -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/120306 03:33:24 it doesn't throw any errors, that's what makes this so hard 03:34:17 -!- awesome-o [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Quit: awesome-o] 03:34:38 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:59 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:36:39 rien: Well, it doesn't appear to be able to find it. 03:37:04 rien: quicklisp will make your life easier. 03:38:07 Zhivago: which line did you infer that from? 03:38:52 derrida: yes but I have everything working so well that I built myself :) I'd feel I'm cheating myself if I used quicklisp straight away. 03:39:08 yes, but .. http://paste.lisp.org/display/120309 03:39:13 The ones saying "component ... not found". 03:39:29 rien: :) 03:39:44 Zhivago: those were because I hadn't loaded hunchentoot yet. 03:39:57 Zhivago: but as you can see, after those attempts, everything loaded up ok 03:40:38 derrida: that looks really nice. I must ask: after doing that, did the page show up at 127.0.0.1:4242/hunchentoot/test ? 03:41:01 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:41:47 euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:48 sup 03:42:21 rien: If you already have everything working so well that you built yourself, then you already succeeded the exercise, upgrading to Quicklisp now is not cheating. Except, cheating yourself of an easier time! 03:42:29 euangelion: Hi. 03:43:11 Hexstream: I totally agree. I promise this'll be my last fix :P I just need to understand what's going on and why it doesn't throw an error. it's morbid curiosity at this point, really. 03:43:23 Hexstream: sup 03:43:34 rien: requiring the system doesn't start the test afaik 03:43:46 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:44:08 running sbcl 1.0.45 03:44:11 is this goodL 03:44:12 ? 03:44:13 derrida: I thought that too, but weitz/de/hunchentoot says that's all one needs, and that's what I remember doing before (I've had this working before) 03:44:24 rien: i could definitely be mistaken though, haven't tried it in longgg time 03:44:25 sorry my dvorak layout 03:45:22 euangelion: Dvorak is the first thing came into my mind when I saw that "L" :P 03:45:27 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.220] has joined #lisp 03:45:37 All right. I think I have a better grip on what's going on in cl-parser-combiners. 03:45:52 What I don't understand is what the Monad emulation actually buys us, though. 03:46:13 lol 03:46:17 euangelion: Very good. Best-supported implementation, recent version. 03:46:25 leo2007 [~leo@117.28.16.33] has joined #lisp 03:46:39 rien: (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:acceptor :port 4242)) 03:46:40 It appears to be used with the do-notation support, but couldn't that be implemented directly? 03:46:49 rien: works for me 03:47:19 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@154.sub-75-203-3.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:47:46 Unless you're on Windows, perhaps. 03:48:47 what's a n00b practice/project?? 03:49:10 euler? 03:49:46 cesarbp_ [~chatzilla@189.247.148.113] has joined #lisp 03:49:47 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.148.113] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:49:48 -!- cesarbp_ is now known as cesarbp 03:49:53 Try to go with something that interests you in some way. It's hard to conjure motivation out of thin air. 03:50:25 mm.. I want to port Hurd 03:50:30 derrida: I think you're on to something, hold on 03:50:38 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 03:51:37 derrida: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120306#1 03:52:03 Hexstream, Zhivago, derrida: I guess I found the problem. Quicklisp, here I come :) 03:52:14 rien: :D 03:52:22 thanks for the help! 03:52:30 I'll be trying quicklisp tomorrow. bed time now 03:52:48 rien: well done, enjoy. :) 03:52:54 :)) 03:53:25 QinGW1 [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has joined #lisp 03:55:14 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:55:56 brennanc [~brennanc@adsl-71-135-165-16.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:09 quote: Usually they carry state implicitly for you. 03:59:11 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.222.199] has joined #lisp 04:01:51 dangN [~max@p5DE8DE74.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:07 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@99-27-216-74.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 04:04:07 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:05:02 -!- dangN_ [~max@p5790F349.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:05:22 lemoinem [~swoog@144-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:27 beach [~user@116.118.74.54] has joined #lisp 04:06:18 -!- ec|detached [~ec@ec2-174-129-205-205.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:06:22 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:06:22 -!- koning_robot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:06:25 -!- rononovski_ [~rononovsk@bzq-79-183-184-16.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:06:44 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:07:42 jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:09:13 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:09:52 rononovski_ [~rononovsk@bzq-79-183-184-16.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:08 dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 04:10:36 ec|detached [~ec@ec2-174-129-205-205.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 04:10:46 freiksenet [~freiksene@freiksenet.com] has joined #lisp 04:10:49 koning_robot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 04:13:05 -!- osoleve is now known as shut_up__all_of_ 04:13:15 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:13:18 -!- shut_up__all_of_ is now known as osoleve 04:15:01 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 04:15:18 Argh! Recently somebody posted a little tale about (car x) in scheme on cll, I can't find it again. Anybody have a pointer? 04:15:20 lnostdal [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 04:16:19 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:18:01 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.235] has joined #lisp 04:20:48 -!- osoleve [~andy@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 04:26:02 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:27:33 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 04:28:23 lnostdal [~Lars@213.80-202-59.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 04:34:48 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:38:05 cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.217] has joined #lisp 04:38:11 -!- cfy [~cfy@122.228.135.217] has quit [Changing host] 04:38:11 cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has joined #lisp 04:40:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:51:39 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 04:58:10 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:58:44 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:08:29 pnq_k [4ada24ac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.218.36.172] has joined #lisp 05:11:03 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:11:55 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 05:12:49 -!- tenawa [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:15:33 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.170.17.41] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:22:56 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 05:24:00 MoALTz [~no@92.8.155.53] has joined #lisp 05:25:15 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.254.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:28:34 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 05:30:25 nipra [~nipra@122.170.116.216] has joined #lisp 05:30:34 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.170.116.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:31:36 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.112.163.78] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 05:37:15 -!- pnq_k [4ada24ac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.218.36.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:42:57 evening 05:43:34 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 05:43:47 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Client Quit] 05:44:14 morning 05:45:50 evening 05:48:35 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 05:48:58 almost tomorrow! 05:49:07 ¬¬ 05:49:14 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gomdabdqevrxqclm] has joined #lisp 05:49:14 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gomdabdqevrxqclm] has quit [Changing host] 05:49:14 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:51:56 madrik [~madrik@122.168.167.138] has joined #lisp 05:53:50 waxrose [~waxrose@cpe-24-162-115-160.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:55:36 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:56:11 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 05:56:15 beach` [~user@116.118.6.29] has joined #lisp 05:57:56 -!- beach [~user@116.118.74.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:01:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@117.28.16.33] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.2] 06:03:26 -!- rononovski_ [~rononovsk@bzq-79-183-184-16.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:07:20 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-yrsndvytqplstxnv] has joined #lisp 06:07:20 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-yrsndvytqplstxnv] has quit [Changing host] 06:07:20 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:07:38 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:08:48 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:10:19 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.66.191.25] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 06:10:37 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 06:12:12 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:12:59 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:13:15 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 06:13:39 madsenz1 [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:40 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:14:51 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:19:35 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:19:59 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-99-130-31-182.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:22:10 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:22:41 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cmtdbnrugdbydtyh] has joined #lisp 06:23:32 -!- madrik [~madrik@122.168.167.138] has left #lisp 06:27:00 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.115.125] has joined #lisp 06:27:32 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.148.113] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726]] 06:29:00 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has joined #lisp 06:33:29 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:35:51 -!- ldunn [~ldunn_fn@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:36:04 museun [~what@c-98-252-140-73.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:24 -!- v0|d [~user@93.94.250.121] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:45:44 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 06:45:46 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:49:12 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-243.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:49:47 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-150-105.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:52:58 Ah, crap. 06:53:12 Davsebamse [~das@office.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 06:53:22 It turns out that without _lexical_ closures, Monad-based parser combinators are a lot less practical. 06:53:30 And guess what kind of scope elisp still uses? 06:54:14 How's this for a plan instead: just use an extensible but explicit recursive descent parser with caching. 06:54:17 ? 06:54:23 quotemstr: (require 'cl) (lexical-let ...) 06:54:32 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:55:00 pjb: lexical-let is a monster. 06:55:08 So, quotemstr, asking on #lisp emacs lisp questions, and trolling on #emacs about Common Lisp... 06:55:11 MoALTz_ [~no@92.8.155.53] has joined #lisp 06:55:18 pjb: Heh. 06:55:29 You could add #scheme in the loop 06:55:36 hello #lispers 06:55:42 pjb: I still think Common Lisp is a flawed language, and that a new standard that wiped away some of the bad 1980s ideas is long overdue. 06:56:00 So what are you waiting to define it? 06:56:16 pjb: I'm not getting into this argument again. 06:56:17 quotemstr: you can lead a horse to water. 06:56:40 Then don't complain about the state of Common Lisp today. 06:57:05 gonzojive1 [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:35 (and notice that CL has true lexical closures contrarily to emacs lisp, so what are you doing with emacs anyways? Use climacs!) 06:58:27 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.8.155.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:58:35 is CLIM rotting away? I'm not sure what the GUI options for CL are these days 06:58:38 pjb: elisp is getting lexical closures soon enough. 06:58:52 gonzo: Personally, I suggest html5. 06:58:58 23rd version and still waiting... 06:59:10 -!- rootlocus [~rootlocus@240218000001280102264afffe09eee2.ptr-ipv6.nicta.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.50.1] 06:59:16 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 07:00:08 Zhivago: yeah, that sounds best to me, too. It would be nice to be able to ship a product with a stand-alone application. I wonder if firefox/chromium can be boxed up well 07:00:20 mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-shkwjqujldmrmnkz] has joined #lisp 07:00:33 gonzojive1: xulrunner 07:00:41 -!- elliottcable is now known as ec|detached 07:00:52 -!- ec|detached is now known as elliottcable 07:01:28 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-149-75.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:39 QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has joined #lisp 07:03:29 Would parser combinators without backtracking be worthwhile? 07:03:37 -!- QinGW1 [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:04:45 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:55 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:05:30 slash_ [~unknown@pD955EAF6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:36 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955EAF6.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 07:06:15 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:06:22 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:06:42 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:07:23 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-243.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:12:38 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 07:13:04 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:14:35 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:16:50 Zhivago: yeah, cl-xul would be nice 07:18:18 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:18:19 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:18:19 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:22:35 -!- jsoftw [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:23:48 Why xul? 07:23:59 how do one import a symbol from a package renaming this symbol? 07:24:16 so I have package :foo with symbol bar, I want to import it as baz 07:26:10 freiksenet: you don't. 07:26:42 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:26:56 pkhuong: what do you mean? 07:27:33 there is no way to do that? 07:29:07 nope. A symbol's name is an intrinsic part of its identity. 07:29:31 freik: Why? 07:29:44 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:30:08 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 07:30:38 Zhivago: I have two packages, I want to import one symbol from one of those and then export it under different name from second one. I guess I will just wrap a function 07:31:46 You could use a symbol-macro. 07:32:12 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:33:48 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:44 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:34:55 good morning 07:37:12 -!- madsenz1 [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:37:48 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:55 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.115.125] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 07:39:31 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:05 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8219A8.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:46:53 Zhivago: can you do symbol-macros for a function? 07:49:56 freiksenet: you can do macros. 07:50:07 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:50:07 -!- ramkrsna 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[~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:42:15 Jacke [jacke@valhalla.bofh.org] has joined #lisp 10:43:51 -!- waxrose [~waxrose@cpe-24-162-115-160.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:46:45 chrnybo` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 10:47:56 basho__ [~basho__@p4FDA6FE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:14 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52:26 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124.168.125.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:52:47 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:54:29 ltriant [~ltriant@124.168.125.161] has joined #lisp 10:56:21 mega1 [~user@catv4E5C915D.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 10:58:12 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:58:50 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-37-121.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:01:34 yay ECLM 11:03:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 11:03:57 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-141-203.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:21 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:07:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-77-12.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:09:09 Teeko [~Teeko@162.Red-88-22-219.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:38 Just using the simple form of the ERROR function isn't enough. It's a good idea to signal the appropriate condition, right? ... but there are conditions that aren't in standard CL that have good uses, such as SBCL's SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR. Is there a cross-platform package that I could use in this case? 11:14:37 ... That is, is there a package/library/whatever that provides additional conditions? 11:14:54 (standard conditions) 11:15:56 *jtza8* doesn't want to re-invent the wheel if he doesn't have to. 11:17:02 It's a good idea to signal a distinct condition if you the call site can reasonably do something with it 11:17:35 Think about the restarts first. 11:18:20 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:19:03 Zhivago: Could you elaborate a bit please? 11:20:03 Like tcr said -- a condition is only as useful as you can make use of it. 11:20:17 So think about what sensible recovery modes exist for your condition. 11:20:27 tr3x [~tr3x@93-138-73-9.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:21:36 Ok... so sometimes a plain error could suffice, for example, as an :initform in a class? 11:22:12 Sure -- if there's no sensible way to recover then that might do what you want -- drop into a debugger or die horribly. 11:22:36 Right, that's exactly what I want. :) 11:22:58 Thanks then tcr, Zhivago. 11:27:40 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:27:57 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:30:27 Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:30:30 Am I and oddbal for doing (defmacro with-foo ((&rest args) &body) ... 11:30:33 ? 11:31:14 wow, my typing is subpar for me 11:31:20 +even for me 11:31:45 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 11:32:02 Anyway, the question is about ARGS vs (&REST ARGS). 11:33:59 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33:59 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:34:30 mega1: i'd go for (&rest args) 11:35:03 mega1: especially if the args are keywords, you'd do (&rest args &key) 11:35:27 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 11:35:58 I find it a tiny bit more informative with &rest 11:38:05 I do (&rest args) 11:40:29 i'd do ((&whole whole foo bar &key a b) &body body) 11:40:35 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-141-203.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:40:57 to get a good lambda-list in slime 11:41:52 you need &whole for that? 11:43:19 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-141-203.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:21 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:47 nikodemus: instead of &rest, i suppose mega1 wanted to apply it to something 11:47:04 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@46.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:37 Rukowen [~Rukowen@74.115.1.52] has joined #lisp 11:51:33 slash_1 [~unknown@pD955DEFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:28 -!- beach` is now known as beach 11:58:04 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:06 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:59:15 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:00:11 amb007 [~a_bakic@46.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:06 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.171] has quit [Quit: Offline] 12:02:23 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 12:03:04 Rukowen_ [~Rukowen@74.115.1.52] has joined #lisp 12:03:27 micke` [~user@147.186.255.4] has joined #lisp 12:04:29 -!- madsy [~madsy@fu/coder/madsy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:05:54 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@74.115.1.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:06:57 waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d049c1d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:35 woudshoo [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:52 davazp [~user@201.Red-88-6-204.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:09 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.196.184] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:16:07 I'm reading the clhs page about load and it's more confusing than helpful 12:16:15 lol 12:16:31 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-118-66.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:17:11 I want to be sure a dynamically load'ed file is not recompiled unnecesarily 12:17:20 as far as I can see, thats implementation-dependent 12:18:14 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-192.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:18:41 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-192.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:20:23 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-134-218.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:21:23 Using compile-file should minimize the chance of that. 12:21:25 -!- micke` [~user@147.186.255.4] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:21:41 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-141-203.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:23:33 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-174-192.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:25:20 thx Zhivago - didn't know about that one! 12:25:35 -!- Teeko [~Teeko@162.Red-88-22-219.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:25:45 I ought to hit the up-arrow occasionally 12:27:29 *ZabaQ* wonders in what context with-compilation-unit is useful.. 12:27:41 I don't think load will ever recompile anything 12:28:31 mal__: on a compile-only implementation? 12:28:37 mal__: even in an implementation without an interpreter? 12:29:16 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-107-195.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:25 I think there's plenty of wiggle room in the spec 12:29:34 in that case it will read and compile on the fly I guess. I still don't think it will write out a fasl. 12:29:39 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:29:57 Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:30:12 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C3C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:19 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:31:15 spilman [~spilman@ARennes-552-1-134-153.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:32:50 rootlocus [~rootlocus@124.169.154.27] has joined #lisp 12:33:39 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 12:33:54 -!- Rukowen_ [~Rukowen@74.115.1.52] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:33:54 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:33:54 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@pD955DEFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:33:54 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:33:54 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 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never had any problem making my CL macros work together. 13:29:38 pjb, read that paper, you'll find a blind spit.. 13:29:46 That said there are a lot of scientific papers written by PhD about how to avoid code injection... 13:29:52 I've got into it approx. 30%, then got distracted. 13:30:04 *blind spot. 13:30:12 I mean, you could get a PhD just by ignoring lisp! 13:30:30 We on #lisp are doomed! 13:30:38 pjb, I don't like the closed mind approach, either. 13:31:00 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-90-45.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:31:03 pjb, remember, CL /did/ learn from Scheme once. 13:31:15 Right. The good things. 13:31:25 The same cannot be said of most languages unfortunately. 13:31:25 pjb, guess what? They moved on. 13:31:59 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:01 I've not finished to read all the papers about CL... 13:32:05 Scheme in 1980 and scheme in 2010 are different things. Standartization is a mixed blessing. 13:32:46 R2RS was in some ways closer to CL than newer ones, what with symbol-plist support there :D 13:34:14 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 13:34:15 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 13:34:15 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:35:18 -!- Rukowen__ [~Rukowen@113.162.160.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:41:30 lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:41:50 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:33 -!- slash_1 is now known as slash_ 13:43:13 woudshoo` [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:00 nollen [~nol@p5B093B8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:04 hello all! i'm trying to define a simple macro here http://paste.lisp.org/display/120313 , but what i get is "Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-variable Else)", so basically my question is: why? 13:46:18 nollen: because the code you return in the macro expansion contains a reference to an undefined variable. 13:46:36 -!- woudshoo [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:46:46 nollen: In common lisp, you'd write it more like `(cond (,test ,then) ...). It looks like you're using emacs lisp. 13:47:20 I don't know what channel is good for emacs lisp help, but I'd guess #emacs. 13:47:24 Xach: yeah, emacs lisp, but Else is defined in the let, isn't it? 13:47:26 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:48:01 nollen: macros take source code as input and return source code as output. the source code your macro returns does not make sense in the context where it is expanded. 13:48:04 Xach: maybe you can just show me how the whole defmacro would look like if it was written right? 13:48:19 nollen: Sorry, I don't want to do that. Maybe someone else can help. 13:49:05 (i know, learning purposes...) 13:49:28 nollen: I recommend reading lots of source code to see examples of working macros. 13:49:44 oh, all the reading...;) 13:49:49 jweiss [~user@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:13 proplem is, real-life source code always is contextualized... 13:50:54 nollen: Do you know what source code your macro returns? 13:51:44 Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:51:49 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:52:00 i know, that in Emacs lisp ' somehow should be ` to switch back to Data Mode... 13:52:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:53:08 that's some strange terminology 13:53:23 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:53:49 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 13:54:29 well, doesn't ` just say "don't evaluate the following code except the symbols quoted with ,"? 13:55:05 yes 13:55:25 so why should ' be used in this example? 13:55:26 but there's no such thing as Data Mode 13:56:06 nollen: i'd ask the author of this example 13:56:40 stassats: well, here somehow something like a "Data Mode" exists: http://www.lisperati.com/syntax.html 13:56:59 though that isn't the first place to really learn (Emacs) Lisp, of course 13:57:37 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-62-247.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 13:57:40 stassats: see here: http://www.apl.jhu.edu/~hall/Lisp-Notes/Macros.html search for "3. Purpose:" 13:57:57 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cmtdbnrugdbydtyh] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:58:09 that's wrong terminology there 13:59:02 nollen: it's wrongly transcribed, it should be ` indeed 13:59:13 sabalaba_ [~sabalaba@67-194-90-45.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:59:16 so there are no two compiler modes Data Mode and Code Mode inside the lisp compiler? 13:59:41 yes, there are no 14:00:00 hargettp_ [~hargettp_@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:13 nollen, it was a concept invented solely to simplify understanding -- it's not how things are really happening 14:00:41 It could be argued that this purported simplification does more harm than good, but it's hard to quantify. 14:00:48 euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:17 it's like using apples to teach arithmetic 14:01:42 ok, now (Iff...) returns nil, still not the behaviour that i wanted...: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120313#1 14:01:56 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:01:56 why did you rebind test then and else? 14:02:09 We know arithmetic should be taught on basis of group theory : -) 14:03:37 In fact, IIRC there was a period in the U.S. when they did teach elements of group theory before arithmetics. Maybe I'm misinterpreting my scattered memories.. 14:04:07 deepfire: it was called New Math 14:04:17 urandom__ [~user@p548A6656.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:26 stassats, yeah that sounds about right 14:04:35 -!- sabalaba_ [~sabalaba@67-194-90-45.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:04:39 stassats: sorry i'm new to lisp, i don't get what you mean by "rebind"... 14:05:03 What do you think (let (Then) ...) does? 14:05:15 nollen: what you pasted and what is by the link you gave differs, why? 14:05:30 Sorry, (let ((Then)) ...) does, even. 14:06:01 -!- mpereira_ [~murilo@201.82.50.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:06:10 Also, you may find macroexpand useful for debugging macros. 14:06:12 morning 14:06:57 morning slyrus 14:09:27 stassats: i don't know... 14:10:09 silenius [~silenus@p4FC23471.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:34 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:43 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:10:53 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-161-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:11:39 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:13:09 mpereira [~murilo@201.82.50.37] has joined #lisp 14:13:16 kauwgom [~reid@static-173-53-193-121.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-31.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:16:50 -!- _reid [~reid@pool-173-53-248-17.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:18:12 ok, now i understand the odd/right behaviour: i bound Test Then and Else inside the let and used the macro outside the let, it should look like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120313#2 14:18:24 any improvements/comments= 14:18:25 ? 14:18:38 oh my 14:18:54 -!- Athas` [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:18:56 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:20:56 nollen: use IF? 14:22:14 nollen: your first macro was more sane, but the LET inside it bound all your terms to NIL 14:22:34 One way to think about how to construct a macro is to write the macro call you want to write (iff ...) and then write the code you want it to turn into (cond ...) and write a Lisp program that turns the first into the second. If you can't write that program, you might want to learn more Lisp instead of working on macros. 14:23:51 nollen: let defines new variables. Why do you define variables named like the macro parameters (thus shadowing the parameters)? 14:24:01 nollen: you don't need a let. 14:30:55 http://paste.lisp.org/display/120313#3 ? 14:35:33 realitygrill [~realitygr@141.215.105.161] has joined #lisp 14:36:50 nollen: you don't need a macro, either. IF already does that. 14:37:07 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:37:23 -!- cfy [~cfy@unaffiliated/chenfengyuan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:58 of course, i just want to get the whole macro concept, haven't seen it in other languages... 14:38:06 panike [~nwp@fw.lmcg.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:38:33 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:39 the concept is: replace some source code with other source code. also there's a terse code template mechanism that starts with `. 14:41:40 "a terse code template mechanism", you mean something that does a similar thing like macros? 14:41:46 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.215.182] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:41:51 -!- pevaneyn1 [~pevaneyn@77.109.101.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:41:53 -!- panike [~nwp@fw.lmcg.wisc.edu] has left #lisp 14:41:59 nollen: he's talking about the backtick 14:42:29 dlowe: ok, then i just don't get his sentence 14:42:41 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-90-45.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:42:52 nollen: the backtick syntax is just convenience. you could build up lisp code using cons 14:43:04 (no one would want to read it, but you could do it) 14:43:06 nollen: backtick is a convenient thing that helps write macros, but they're not special or magic. 14:43:26 They are a way to produce the output source code in a way that makes it look fairly readable. 14:43:53 xan_ [~xan@94.57.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:44:04 nollen: you may treat macros as normal functions except that they are called during compilation and return code to be evaluated instead of a result 14:44:10 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:44:25 ok, now let's try to just replace "defun" with a macro... 14:44:48 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has left #lisp 14:45:14 nollen: do something new. writing a version of CASE that works on strings is common 14:46:15 On Lisp is a pretty good book if you are interested in macros 14:47:18 but basically i should be able to replace single function names with macros, too, right? 14:47:36 nollen: er... 14:48:08 drdo: i'm reading graham's book in parallel, but it still has 400 pages... 14:48:12 dlowe: er...? 14:48:17 what's a single function name? 14:49:08 i mean, i want to write a macro that will simply allow me to write "defunny" instead of "defun" 14:49:15 for example 14:49:43 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.163.238.87] has joined #lisp 14:50:54 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.174.121] has joined #lisp 14:50:58 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955DEFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 14:51:51 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:01 nollen: you can do that 14:54:25 milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:31 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 14:56:26 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:57:40 drdo: no, i can't 14:57:47 nollen: Notice that by default, the Common Lisp reader is configured to be case insensitive (it upcases symbol names), while emacs lisp is just case sensitive, and scheme doesn't specify. 14:57:59 nollen: so my advice would be to avoid mixed case symbols, in general. 14:58:40 how do I run a .lisp file? 14:58:41 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:58:51 I prolly mean compile 14:58:52 pjb: yeah, i just took it from that (stupid) example 14:58:57 (and it seems that lower case is better if you want to write code working both in Common Lisp and emacs lisp or scheme). 14:58:57 with sbcl 14:59:05 euangelion: (load "file.lisp") 14:59:17 euangelion: (load (compile-file "file.lisp")) if you want to compile it first. 14:59:26 euangelion: (load "file") if it is already compiled. 14:59:27 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:59:36 euangelion: what does "compile" mean to you? 14:59:37 euangelion: that's the same in all CL implementations. 15:00:33 nollen: if you want to get more details about macros, have a look at http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 15:00:57 -!- Davsebamse [~das@office.ipvision.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:01:43 Xach: this is what I am trying to compile --> http://www.apl.jhu.edu/~hall/lisp/Hanoi.lisp 15:02:57 euangelion: What does "compile" mean to you? 15:03:18 Xach: it did it --> hanoi.fasl written 15:03:38 *Xach* gives up 15:04:17 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 15:04:27 Xach: turn the code into binary format, meaning translating the code (written lines with words) into assembly language compressed binaries. 15:04:30 better now? 15:05:09 euangelion: Ok, that is not what "compile" means in general or in CL specifically. 15:05:18 hanoi.fasl is not showing up as executable 15:05:35 euangelion: Do you want a program that's a single file that you can run from the command line? 15:06:25 I use http://xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ for that kind of thing. But most of the time I work within lisp as a long-running interactive programming environment. 15:06:42 Rukowen [~Rukowen@123.20.9.125] has joined #lisp 15:07:31 ok, converting higher order programming paradigm into machine binaries 0s and 1s 15:08:31 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:08:31 SBCL does that interactively. I remember how enlightening it was to see the output of a call to DISASSEMBLE on a function I just wrote! 15:09:32 so how do I run the fasl file inside sbcl? 15:10:28 euangelion: (load "hanoi.fasl") will load the file. then you can call the functions it defines. 15:12:27 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:12:48 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:13:22 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has left #lisp 15:13:45 benny` [~benny@i577A205E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:14:56 euangelion: converting source code into binary code is done by COMPILE or COMPILE-FILE. But this is not generating an executable. Those are two different things. 15:15:19 euangelion: eg. when you compile a C program with gcc -c file.c -o file.o, you don't get an executable either. 15:15:36 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:15:41 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 15:16:04 euangelion: when you avoid the file type: (load "hanoi"), the implementation will load the compiled file instead of the source file, if it's more recent. 15:17:38 i don't get it how i can use macros to replace function names.. 15:18:45 nollen: you don't. 15:18:58 nollen: you use macros to create new syntax 15:18:59 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19:58 dlowe: yes, but it should be able to just say: "if a occurs, replace it with b and just do the same thing a would do"... 15:20:07 here i get stuck all the time: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120314 15:20:22 i don't even think that all the arguments are necessary... 15:20:27 -!- euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:20:27 (toto) is not a function name. 15:20:33 (defun (toto) ...) is meaningless. 15:20:45 Your macro is generating meaningless code. 15:20:55 toto? 15:21:04 nollen: you can do that locally with a macrolet 15:21:09 <_3b> also, 'defun' isn't a function 15:21:13 nollen: toto = French for foo 15:21:23 euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:23:19 ok, but it should work to build a fake binary operator with defmacro, so "(1 + 2)" instead of "(+ 1 2)" 15:23:23 ? 15:23:45 nollen: No. 15:23:48 no? 15:24:06 <_3b> you could write something like (infix (1 + 2)), but not just (1 + 2) 15:24:17 You should read some book. 15:24:24 -!- benny` is now known as benny 15:24:28 Or you could write something like: {1+2}, but not just (1 + 2) 15:24:29 (defmacro defunny (&rest args) `(defun ,@args)) 15:24:37 <_3b> (unless you make a macro named '1', but i assume that isn't what you mean) 15:24:48 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:24:48 ok, i see that, so 1 would be the operator... 15:25:06 _3b: since there's no base 1, 1 cannot be a symbol, so you cannot name a macro 1. 15:25:25 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-13-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 15:25:31 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-13-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:18 Funny how someday the patience is extremely low like yesterday and then the next day it's very different 15:26:22 drdo: what does @ mean? 15:26:26 On the other hand (setf *read-base* 2.) (defmacro 2 (op other) `(,op 2. ,other)) (2 + 3.) --> 5 15:26:37 nollen: it's ,@ 15:26:50 nollen: have you read Casting SPELS already? 15:26:50 drdo: and your solution does not really work for "(defunny print-something () (print "something"))" 15:27:08 Sure, that's a string. 15:27:10 nollen: trying to learn lisp one character at a time is not a good use of #lisp 15:27:13 Try to give a sexp instead. 15:27:19 nollen: yes it does 15:27:25 nollen: have you read Casting SPELS already? 15:27:47 nollen: if you don't read the reference we give, we will shut up... http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 15:28:10 (Mind you I'm not particularly endorsing brutal harshness, but I'd at least try to be consistent so it's fair) 15:30:51 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:30:56 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 15:31:41 i always thought &rest, &optional,... would just be for the documentation and not actually have meaning for the compiler 15:32:18 nollen: You have a lot of strange ideas that would be cured by reading and paying attention to some tutorial material. 15:32:32 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:51 -!- nollen [~nol@p5B093B8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:33:54 -!- mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-shkwjqujldmrmnkz] has left #lisp 15:37:43 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-haoiijlhneufmfhg] has joined #lisp 15:37:43 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-haoiijlhneufmfhg] has quit [Changing host] 15:37:43 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 15:38:12 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 15:39:33 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 15:39:54 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:41:08 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:00 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 15:42:36 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:44:12 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.155.215] has joined #lisp 15:44:57 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:56 -!- woudshoo` [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:46:33 woudshoo` [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:54 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-87-47-213.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:51 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:48:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:48:58 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:51:55 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 15:52:31 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:53:04 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Quit: Love is the law, love under Will.] 15:55:20 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-13-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:55:22 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Client Quit] 15:56:11 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 15:56:39 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:57:26 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:48 -!- jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:58:26 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-13-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:15 znoke [~z@p5B093B8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:21 -!- xan_ [~xan@94.57.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:59:30 why can't i evaluate (insert (number-to-string 5 4 (lambda (- 5 4))))? 15:59:49 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 15:59:59 znoke: lambda doesn't have an argument list 16:00:34 sure it does! but no body. 16:00:42 not really. 16:00:43 oh, sorry, but this does not work either (insert (number-to-string (lambda 5 4 (- 5 4)))) 16:00:47 znoke: it should be (lambda () (- 5 4)) instead...just guessing 16:00:59 xan_ [~xan@112.56.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:01:05 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:01:17 znoke: the first form after lambda should be a list, defining the parameter list for the lambda 16:01:28 znoke: elisp? #emacs 16:01:37 jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has joined #lisp 16:01:52 znoke: we'll keep giving the same answers even if you change your nick 16:02:16 dlowe: crafty 16:02:30 -!- tr3x [~tr3x@93-138-73-9.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:05:19 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 16:06:12 ehu` [~ehuels@109.32.64.42] has joined #lisp 16:06:54 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.155.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:10:47 -!- aerique [310225@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:11:05 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:13:43 -!- znoke [~z@p5B093B8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:14:06 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:22 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B3274ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:23 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 16:16:23 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@141.215.105.161] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 16:16:32 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5B327E0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:17:10 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:55 -!- lanthan [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:24:01 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:24:23 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:24:23 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:21 -!- akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:41 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:26:43 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:27:01 Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:27:44 pjb: I have to serialize data! :( structures are not so useful for my project 16:27:44 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:28:21 Often CLOS objects have overwhelming advantages over structures, indeed. 16:28:23 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6656.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:29:07 pjb: but file written on disk by serialization methods have to be human readable 16:30:07 cpach [~carl@h167n3-sde-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:12 pjb: but file written on disk by serialization methods has to be human readable and has to be written by people too :) 16:30:46 That is quite an odd requirement. 16:31:22 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:26 -!- woudshoo` [~user@ipleiden.intellimagic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:31:27 Posterdati: you can easily write a method to generate a sexp from a CLOS object. 16:32:01 (defmethod sexp ((self )) `( :slot1 ,(slot1 self) :slot2 ,(slot2 self) ...)) 16:32:03 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:32:57 Then when you read these sexp, you can easily instantiate the corresponding objects, as long as you've defined correctly the :initarg for the slots. 16:33:15 (apply (function make-instance) sexp) 16:36:47 akimbo [~oy@cpe-024-163-123-094.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:36 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC23471.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:08 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 16:40:42 And since these sexp methods may be always the same for your classes, you could write a macro that would define your class and generate the sexp method in one easy step. 16:41:12 eg. a define-class macro that will expand to (progn (defclass ...) (defmethod sexp ...)) 16:41:21 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 16:41:23 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:41:36 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 16:42:31 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:47 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:21 tronador_ [~guille@190.66.191.25] has joined #lisp 16:46:59 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:51:16 alama [~alama@a79-169-86-70.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 16:51:59 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00386d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:52:22 urandom__ [~user@p548A56D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:59 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-105-57.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:58:01 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:39 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 17:00:01 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:29 hello, I've got an adjacancy list and i need to delete an element. i don't really know how to describe what that element is, so I can't delete it as consequence. hpw do i get rid of it (paste follows) 17:01:03 nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-85-202.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:01:25 http://cxg.de/_bccf6e.htm 17:01:41 sorry for not using the default one, noscript broke it 17:02:57 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 17:03:32 bad_alloc: DELETE returns the list with the element removed 17:03:51 it /can/ be destructive, but it doesn't have to be (and can't be, in some cases). 17:04:01 <_3b> DELETE operates on a sequence, not a tree, so won't look into sublists 17:04:06 oh, also that. 17:04:18 hm, and it doesn't work with places either? 17:04:26 <_3b> (and wouldn't do what you wanted even if it did search a tree) 17:04:27 that was my attempt with the caar's 17:04:36 no, you can set stuff to the result of delete 17:04:40 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:04:51 antifuchs: how? set it nil? 17:05:11 would't that result in (nil 5 6)? 17:05:16 <_3b> (setf (cadr (assoc ...)) (delete 4 (cadr (assoc ...)))) 17:05:20 bad_alloc: I meant set the branch that should hold the new list to the new list 17:05:39 anyway, check out SUBST and SUBLIS. sounds like they do exactly what you're trying to do 17:05:49 ah, thanks for the pointer :) 17:05:56 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:06 at least I hope they do (: 17:06:51 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.32.64.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:07:09 brennanc [~brennanc@adsl-71-135-165-16.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:26 _3b: that did the trick, thanks a lot 17:08:46 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:09:56 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:10:56 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:00 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:11:06 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:11:09 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@216.227.115.124] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:18 kushal [~kdas@115.111.101.74] has joined #lisp 17:11:18 -!- kushal [~kdas@115.111.101.74] has quit [Changing host] 17:11:18 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:11:29 -!- brennanc [~brennanc@adsl-71-135-165-16.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:11:45 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:11:46 waxrose [~waxrose@cpe-24-162-115-160.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:47 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.59.11] has joined #lisp 17:11:52 -!- Rukowen [~Rukowen@123.20.9.125] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:16:28 nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-104-66.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:16:51 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:17:14 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:17:47 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-85-202.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:19:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:20:22 kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-46-168.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:20:48 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:21:13 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.174.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:20 HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-197-082.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:45 -!- astoon [~astoon@178-16-146-17.obit.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:22:24 -!- nowhereman [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-104-66.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:23:01 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.254.208] has joined #lisp 17:23:37 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:23:55 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:24:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 17:27:52 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 17:28:16 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:28:30 -!- xan_ [~xan@112.56.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:28:33 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:28:51 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:32 kushal [~kdas@115.111.101.74] has joined #lisp 17:29:32 -!- kushal [~kdas@115.111.101.74] has quit [Changing host] 17:29:33 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:30:31 root [~root@dslc-082-082-100-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:57 -!- root is now known as Guest21944 17:31:12 -!- Guest21944 [~root@dslc-082-082-100-171.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 17:35:54 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 17:36:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:39:06 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:40:31 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-34-31.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:41:10 billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.86] has joined #lisp 17:41:42 nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-68-40.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:42:03 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:43:03 -!- kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-46-168.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:43:21 Recently, the ASDF that's shipped with SBCL appears to need SBCL_HOME to be an absolute path. 17:44:01 In a shell script 17:44:05 SBCL_HOME=$sbcl/lib/sbcl exec $sbcl/bin/sbcl-runtime "$@" 17:44:22 does not work if SBCL_HOME is relative. 17:44:49 sbcl-runtime is the sbcl binary. 17:45:03 Is this the expected bahavior? 17:45:05 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:46:48 urbaniv [~urbaniv@2001:67c:1220:c1b0:21e:37ff:fecb:baa0] has joined #lisp 17:46:51 ehu` [~ehuels@109.34.59.11] has joined #lisp 17:47:21 Ragnaroek [5b0c40f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.64.241] has joined #lisp 17:47:22 cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.148.113] has joined #lisp 17:48:08 milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.59.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:48:23 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@144-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:49:00 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.138] has joined #lisp 17:49:35 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:32 awesome-o [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:48 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:51:56 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:53:39 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 17:55:15 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@nat.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has left #lisp 17:55:26 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:57:17 brennanc [~brennanc@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:32 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:59:15 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:00:38 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-171-229.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:00:41 silenius [~silenus@p4FC23471.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:33 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-162-173.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:01:52 -!- kerx [~kerx@209.208.63.169] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:02:31 kerx [~kerx@209.208.63.169] has joined #lisp 18:02:46 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:23 McMAGIC-- [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--] has joined #lisp 18:05:46 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-68-40.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:55 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:07:20 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 18:07:34 nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-68-40.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:08:16 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: Lämnar] 18:09:28 milkpost_ [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:42 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-49-13-243.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [SeaMonkey 2.1b2pre/20101206220131]] 18:11:25 -!- btbngr [~Matt@92.40.210.199.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:11:41 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:12:52 snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:12:56 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:13:00 -!- milkpost_ is now known as milkpost 18:14:16 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-34-31.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:32 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-34-31.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:18:11 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:18:31 YourKidDies [8182648e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.130.100.142] has joined #lisp 18:18:59 sacho [~sacho@87-126-37-121.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 18:19:09 zomgbie [~jesus@chello080108076086.35.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:19:19 @antifuchs _2x2l _3b ``Erik abeaumont abend acieroid Adamant adeht Adrinael aidalgol Aisling akimbo akkartik alama albino algorist_ amaron_ amb007 andreer AntiSpamMeta antoszka aoh araujo arbscht ASau Atomsk awesome-o Axioplase_ azaq23 basho__ beach benny bfein billitch billstclair blackwolf bmp bobbysmith007 Borbus borkamaniac brennanc BrianRice Bronsa Bucciarati Buganini bzzbzz CallToPower cataska ccl-logbot cesarbp ch077179 ch 18:19:25 ... 18:19:28 ? 18:19:31 bot 18:19:38 nope 18:19:43 YourKidDies: erc user? (: 18:19:46 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:52 what's erc 18:19:55 ok 18:20:01 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 18:20:17 -!- YourKidDies [8182648e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.130.100.142] has left #lisp 18:21:27 -!- urbaniv [~urbaniv@2001:67c:1220:c1b0:21e:37ff:fecb:baa0] has quit [Quit: urbaniv] 18:21:42 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:22:01 Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:24:09 Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:25:41 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:06 -!- basho__ [~basho__@p4FDA6FE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:28:41 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:28:41 *jsoft* discoveres lispbuilder-sdl 18:29:31 There appears to be a suprising number of libs available for lisp 18:29:37 more than I previously thought 18:29:46 -!- jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:29:50 Are you discovering stuff via quicklisp? 18:30:01 yes 18:30:09 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:30:12 jsoft: yeah. But they're not included, and there's a lot of parentheses, and it's all interpreted. 18:30:22 pjb: oh and its slow too. 18:30:23 18:30:27 Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:34:05 jsoft: I am continually amazed at how much great stuff is there. 18:34:25 the best thing is, most of them are really high-quality. 18:35:01 And it is all a peice of cake to install! Hoorah 18:35:02 tcleval [~funnyguy@187.114.113.189] has joined #lisp 18:35:14 yay (-: 18:37:15 dalkvist [~cairdazar@h-2-115.A322.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 18:38:23 lisp has all the hard stuff 18:39:06 even the easy stuff is pretty great (: 18:39:16 yeah 18:39:20 *antifuchs* considers drakma, cxml. 18:39:30 well, "easy" (: 18:40:06 heh 18:41:09 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.177.82] has joined #lisp 18:42:05 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C3C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:42:06 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:43:06 Also mostly suprised at how compact lisp code seems to be 18:43:23 Just seems to get to the point somehow 18:43:29 depends on what you're used to i guess 18:43:40 jsoft: that's because there are a lot of different way of abstraction in Lisp. 18:44:11 functions, data structures, objects, macros, reader macros, metalinguistic abstraction, etc. 18:44:13 i just did an evil syntax hack for clos to make things more concise 18:44:28 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:45 other lisp people would probably hate it, but they don't have to use it :p 18:45:22 does it involve the dot as an operator, at all? :P 18:45:37 not really 18:45:47 Oh, good 18:46:22 slightly, but it's not an operator, and i could change it, but since i doubt i'll even distribute it, meh 18:46:31 mostly it's far worse 18:46:41 Xach: Here's the almost-a-one-liner manual for CommonQt on Win32 with Quicklisp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/120322 18:46:46 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:46:48 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 18:46:58 -!- dalkvist [~cairdazar@h-2-115.A322.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:47:19 mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has joined #lisp 18:48:43 it "just" translates method definitions with named parameters into individual generic functions/methods, along with a macro to translate keyword parameter calls back into "actual" names, so you have the illusion of non-congruent lambda lists 18:48:59 lichtblau: that is awesome. march quicklisp update should be next weekend. 18:49:16 19th or 20th 18:49:48 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:09 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:09 pjb: what about sexp? 18:50:21 pjb: I need to read and write too 18:50:38 I explained both dirrection. 18:50:39 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:50:51 (apply (function make-instance) (read)) 18:50:56 to deserialize. 18:51:01 Xach: I'm sure team "slyrus eslaughter" will provide a tgz for MacOS. :-) 18:51:06 pjb: seems reasonable 18:51:07 (defmethod sexp ((self )) `( :slot1 ,(slot1 self) :slot2 ,(slot2 self) ...)) 18:51:10 to serialize. 18:52:31 oh wait, slyrus isn't here. That makes my prophecy less self-fulfilling. 18:52:36 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:52:37 pjb will I have on file anything like: #S( :slot1 slot1 :slot2 slot2 ...) ? 18:53:07 lichtblau: No need to do anything in the ~/quicklisp/dists/blah/blah directory. Just check out commonqt somewhere in an asdf source registry path. 18:53:37 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:53:40 Posterdati: no, you will have something like: ( :slot1 slot1 :slot2 slot2 ...) 18:53:51 *lichtblau* doesn't know what a source registry is 18:54:13 lichtblau: e.g. (push #p"/path/to/qt.asd" asdf:*central-registry*) 18:54:16 pjb: what is it? a list? 18:54:19 Posterdati: See http://paste.lisp.org/display/120323 for an example of a macro, generating a print-object method in this case, but you can similarly generate a to-sexp method. 18:54:23 lichtblau: systems visible via asdf override quicklisp systems. 18:54:32 Posterdati: what's the first character? 18:54:51 pjb: first character? 18:54:56 yeah, personally my clbuild overrides quicklisp like that. I just didn't want to complicate the instructions like that. 18:55:07 Yes. To know what is read from a text, you need to watch the first character. 18:55:18 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:55:30 I'll paste you an example of file 18:55:35 Posterdati: see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm 18:55:37 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has left #lisp 18:55:41 lichtblau: dunno, doesn't seem easier to me to go into a quicklisp-managed subdirectory and check things out into a misleading pathname. 18:57:58 pjb: problem pasting 18:58:07 OK. I retract the paste! 18:59:08 lichtblau: yow, those dlls are big. 18:59:30 do they change often? 18:59:39 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:59:39 -!- davazp [~user@201.Red-88-6-204.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:59:41 or rather, how frequently do they change? 18:59:50 only commonqt.* will need occasional updates 19:00:09 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 19:00:52 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 19:07:18 *Xach* ponders a ql-qt-helper 19:07:42 du 19:08:26 51056 . 19:08:38 just enough to make sbcl.core look small 19:08:44 tr3x [~tr3x@93-138-73-9.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:11:44 micke` [~user@c-aabfe355.08-77-73746f29.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:12:25 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:40 would separate libraries be needed for 64bit windows? 19:13:14 yes (when using a 64bit lisp obviously) 19:14:11 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:15:14 don't know whether it's worth building too much infrastructure just for qt, but I'd imagine that other projects would also benefit from this sort of thing 19:15:20 last not least iolib 19:15:46 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:16:14 So I made a window with sbcl. I cant seem to kill it. What is the gizmo to use to list processes and kill them in sbcl? 19:16:18 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:36 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 19:16:44 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.177.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:16:44 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 19:17:21 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:17:32 jsoft: a window? 19:19:57 -!- HG` [~HG@dslb-188-109-197-082.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:20:20 Yeah using lispbuidler-sdl. 19:20:30 I forgot to add the message handling loop 19:20:35 So it is just sitting there. 19:20:41 Going... hmm... now what 19:21:11 jsoft: was it created in a thread? 19:21:28 It must have been. The repl is still acting as normal (ie, not waiting...) 19:21:35 *_3b* would say just get used to restarting lisp every once in a while to get rid of dead windows 19:21:36 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:21:47 btbngr [~Matt@92.40.243.49.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:21:47 :| 19:21:49 *tsuru* agrees :( 19:21:57 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:21:59 How do I list current threads though 19:22:01 There must be some way 19:22:03 <_3b> takes a while to get things properly set up so you can't end up in a bad state 19:22:18 <_3b> M-x slime-list-threads 19:22:20 what is the quickest way to restart-lisp 19:22:22 Ahh I see 19:22:24 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:26 *_3b* suspects it isn't in a separate thread though 19:22:37 <_3b> ,restart-inferior-lisp 19:22:58 <_3b> and .asd you can reload easily to get back to where you were 19:23:25 Ahh there we go 19:23:51 <_3b> once you get used to the library a bit you can start adding restarts to avoid bad non-local-exits, save window objects somewhere so you can close them by hand, figure out how to run the event loop by hand, etc 19:23:57 <_3b> so you can close them without killing the lisp 19:24:37 Yerp 19:24:42 <_3b> and/or look for a with-foo macro of some sort that closes them for you 19:24:44 ldunn [ldunn@2607:f128:42:54::2] has joined #lisp 19:24:51 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@124.168.125.161] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:25:03 Well.. this would have to be the easiest graphical window gizmo ive ever done. 19:25:05 _3b: how is your flash compiler going? 19:25:15 -!- splittist [~splittist@251.120.63.81.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 19:25:18 The example actually worked. And the code is tiny. 19:25:27 Hoorah 19:25:32 <_3b> p_l|home: not at the top of my 'things to work on' stack at the moment, so slow :/ 19:25:51 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:26:19 _3b: what is the state? As in, how usable it is (assuming willingness to deal with various quirks) 19:26:40 <_3b> it can be used 19:27:24 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:36 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:28:41 <_3b> lots of major features missing, but not impossible to work around for a lot of tasks 19:29:24 <_3b> and no good workflow yet, need to rewrite some bits of the compiler to allow for interactive dev 19:30:01 <_3b> + some sort of thing to run on the VM for slime or slime-proxy to talk to 19:31:28 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 19:32:16 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:32:24 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:43 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:36:39 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:36:40 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:11 woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:37:46 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:26 ezakimak [~nick@69-9-62-212.static.orml010.digis.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:29 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:42:01 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:42:11 -!- Atomsk is now known as ace4016 19:42:46 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:10 setmeaway2 [jnoos43@118.45.149.204] has joined #lisp 19:46:21 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:46:55 i installed it, restarted system settings, and it still says gtk-qt theme engine is not installed 19:47:51 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:49:46 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello080108076086.35.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:51:22 Sprayzor` [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:22 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:52:06 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:52:24 masonium [~user@vpn.tgsmc.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:11 -!- cesarbp [~chatzilla@189.247.148.113] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.15/20110303024726]] 19:53:24 oops. wrong tab 19:53:47 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:53:58 -!- ravi__ [~ravi@118-92-28-247.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:05 I'm working through: http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/acl2.txt, on excercise 9 b, I'm stumped 19:54:11 can someone help me? 19:55:12 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@122.163.238.87] has quit [Quit: And we said: look at that fucker dance.] 19:56:04 ezakimak: did you try it out on an example list? 19:56:05 <_3b> did you try them? 19:56:17 ezakimak: what does summit return if lst is nil? 19:56:18 yes, it never returns 19:56:48 ezakimak: i'm sure that's not the intended behavior 19:56:56 ezakimak: it might be helpful to know that the CAR of NIL is NIL. 19:56:56 well yes, I realize that 19:57:36 well, if lst is nil, (cdr lst) should also be nil, right? 19:57:41 ezakimak: right 19:57:48 -!- koning_robot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:58:14 oh, I see it. there's no basis case to stop the recursion if lst is nil 19:58:22 ezakimak: good job :D 19:58:22 koning_robot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 19:58:37 so it gets to the end of lst and goes on forever with nil 19:58:49 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-243.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:59:02 Right. 19:59:16 Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 20:00:14 thx. been staring at that one for a while 20:00:29 Now go blog about how nice we are! 20:00:32 :) 20:00:34 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:00:39 I have a more complicate question 20:00:45 I'm trying to understand setf 20:01:20 my understanding so far, is that variables are essentially named pointer (the name being the symbol), bound (pointing to) a value 20:01:56 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC23471.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:01:58 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:00 so, my question is, a place that is "setf-able" does it follow the pointer and change the value being pointed to, or rebind the variable to the new value? 20:02:16 or are there cases of each behavior? 20:03:10 ezakimak: setf of variables, in general, mutates a binding. a binding is not a first-class object to play with. 20:03:11 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-34-31.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:15 (let ((x '(1 2 3)) (setf (car x) 4) x) yields (4 2 3), right? 20:03:23 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-34-31.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:03:40 ezakimak: that is not a great example, since modifying a quoted list has undefined consequences. if you used (list 1 2 3) it would be accurate. 20:03:58 but, (let ((x 3)) (setf x 4) x) doesn't change 3 to 4, but what X points to, right? 20:04:23 okay, so imagine my let examples as a defun instead with x being the argument passed in 20:04:29 ezakimak: it mutates the binding between the name x and the value 3. 20:04:42 ezakimak: in a defun example, a fresh binding is created in the scope of the defun. 20:04:54 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:17 ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 20:05:25 (defun abc (lst) (setf (car lst) 4)) ... (abc (list 1 2 3)) -> (4 2 3), right? 20:05:55 no, the return value is 4. 20:06:27 sorry. (defun abc (lst) (setf (car lst) 4 lst) 20:06:45 I get what you mean. In that example, you are modifying the car of the cons cell that is acting as the head of the list. 20:06:58 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00386d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:02 That modification is visible if other people have access to that cons. 20:07:07 right, so is it following the pointer (car lst) and changing the value at that place? 20:07:10 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 20:07:33 Not in general. There is some translation done to turn that into a setter of some sort. 20:07:36 It's not automatic. 20:07:49 if instead I do (let ((x (car lst)) (setf x 123)), it merely makes x point to 123, not change the car of lst, right? 20:07:51 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:07:59 see (macroexpand-1 '(setf (car x) 42)) for example 20:08:04 ezakimak: yes. 20:08:35 so, I guess my question is, how do I easily remember to distinguish between when I'm going to modify a value, vs merely change a pointer 20:08:47 (maybe I just need to work through more chapters in the books... ?) 20:09:54 In general, setf of a variable is changing a binding between that name and its value. 20:10:01 (symbol macros complicate the issue) 20:11:02 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-243.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:12:16 ezakimak: are you familiar with any other programming languages? 20:13:15 gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.94] has joined #lisp 20:13:16 yes. assembly, C, C++, python, bash, php (if that counts), and javascript 20:13:38 Okay, look at table 6-1 here http://gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html 20:14:07 sylecn [~sylecn@wireless-128-62-87-27.public.utexas.edu] has joined #lisp 20:14:31 I wonder why it's so hard to understand (setf (car x) 4). A lot of newbies are puzzled. This is puzzling. 20:14:37 In some of those languages you mentioned (setf (car x) 4) would be written something like x.car = 4 20:14:38 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-29-12.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 20:14:59 pjb: because it lies. (setf car) and car are only related by their name. 20:15:32 pjb: and also because folks don't expect a function call (or something that looks like one) to return an rvalue. 20:15:42 c[i].a = 4; vs. print(c[i].a) ! 20:15:53 Which is the best lisp to java translator ? Is it clojure or something else ? 20:16:02 But it's also the reference/value stuff. 20:16:06 I think the kicker is the statement "the place is modified without any effect on the object that was previously stored in the place." 20:16:16 because in many languages, the object is actually replaced 20:16:23 or mutated 20:16:25 gigamonkey: lvalue, you mean? :) 20:16:30 rien: yes, sorry. 20:16:49 ezakimak: careful, replaced and mutated are not the same. 20:17:08 yes, depends on the language, object type, and operator 20:17:29 In general you can think of any of the "places" that SETF can operate on as being a pointer to some object. 20:17:41 SETF changes what the pointer points to without changing the object it used to point to. 20:17:58 But sometimes that pointer is itself part of some other object which will the be observed to have been mutated. 20:18:00 in C, x = 4; x = 3, changes the memory location where x's value is stored, my understanding in lisp, is that at least conceptually, it's *x, and *x is changed to point to a new constant number 20:18:31 <_3b> prljavi_hari: depends on what sort of 'lisp' you want, and whether you want java bytecode or source, see ABCL and linj 20:18:34 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:18:35 so it's really x = &3 or x = &4 20:18:50 ezakimak: well, small interegers don't actually work like that in practice. 20:19:06 well, I'm sure it's optimized, but isn't that conceptually how it works? 20:19:30 Sure. 20:19:41 which is why in lisp eq can essentially be a pointer comparison for many types? 20:20:08 ezakimak: it is a pointer comparisons, if you want to think about lisp that way. 20:20:20 Which is why (let ((x 4)) (eq x x)) can be NIL. 20:20:23 ok. I think I'm making progress here. 20:20:34 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:20:39 oh. hrm. 20:20:43 _3b: I would like to make a program for mobila phone 20:21:15 gigamonkey, now I'm confused 20:21:25 ezakimak: that's a weird corner that's there to give compiler writers room to do their magic. 20:21:41 I'm of the camp that says everyone would be better of ignoring the existance of EQ and use EQL all the time. 20:21:50 But there is another camp that strongly disagrees with me. 20:21:51 that is so far from intuitive... 20:22:03 The camp that writes more books wins. 20:22:11 lol 20:22:30 The EQ of numbers corner case? Don't worry about it, and just use EQL if you might be comparing numbers. 20:22:33 I think the idea is that the two arguments to EQ could be in different registers and thus be consdered different. 20:23:30 -!- Ragnaroek [5b0c40f1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.64.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:23:48 isn't it more that they could be in different memory locations? 20:23:53 No doubt. 20:23:58 *Xach* gets cracking on Quicklisp: The Definitive Guide 20:24:05 Xach: heh 20:24:11 ok. just reread the eq, eql section. still haven't got the differences memorized, but semantically I understand what's going on at least 20:24:14 like Integer and autoboxing in Java. 20:24:16 if numbers are boxed (i.e. represented by heap objects, and pointed to), then you could well have two different `4's 20:24:34 Krystof: It doesn't really make sense to me tough because couldn't two pointers to, say, the same symbol be in different memory locations, yet EQ would consider them the same. 20:24:34 it is very common to have different 4.0d0s 20:24:55 Krystof: but that's only if X somehow got duplicated between the LET binding and the call to EQ. 20:24:56 symbols are interned 20:25:05 Krystof: yeah, I know. 20:25:14 i don't understand how (eq x x) could be false though, how would x change so soon? 20:25:17 yes, there'd have to be a copying step 20:25:35 I guess I'm wondering about why that copying step would happen? 20:26:07 i can see (eq 3 3), where for whatever reason the compiler chooses a different 3 each time, but where it's the same symbol? 20:26:29 I don't understand how that could happen either 20:26:32 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 20:26:41 . 20:26:46 *gigamonkey* gets cracking on Quicklisp: The Unauthorized Biography 20:27:10 why does SBCL have such a great runtime core? 20:27:36 ezakimak: a real case is: (let ((x [a float])) (eq x x)), where X has a specialised representation (e.g. a floating point register). To get a pointer to pass to EQ, each occurrence of X could be boxed (converted to a generic representation) independently, and then passed to EQ. 20:28:01 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:04 ok. that makes sense 20:28:20 very subtle 20:28:27 EarlGray: the compiler and the rest of the runtime takes a lot of space (it, and there seems to be a fair amount of redundant data (). 20:29:16 pkhuong: or possibly even an integer by the same argument, right? The LET binding lives in a register but gets boxed (twice) to pass to EQ? 20:29:36 (In some implementation that doesn't opencode EQ) 20:29:40 -!- micke` [~user@c-aabfe355.08-77-73746f29.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:29:48 EarlGray: the compiler and the rest of the runtime takes a lot of space (it's all compiled to native code), and there seems to be a fair amount of redundant data, as gzip get very nice compression rates. 20:30:01 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:30:28 gigamonkey: open coding is orthogonal, actually. And yes, it could happen for integers or fixnums as well. It's just not as easy to show that happening in practice. 20:30:48 And, to be complete, characters. 20:31:49 pkhuong: well, I was thinking that if you went to the trouble to open code EQ, you would skip the boxing step. But yes, you could box and then open code the pointer comparison. 20:32:04 gigamonkey: like SBCL and CMUCL. 20:32:34 pkhuong: which, they box but open code? 20:32:44 yup. 20:33:23 It's hard to tell how the boxing step should be skipped; by expanding to EQL instead? I can see some arguments for just constant folding all of these cases to NIL. 20:33:33 *gigamonkey* wonders if an implementation has ever existed where (let ((x 5)) (eq 5 5)) ==> NIL 20:33:51 -!- twem2` [~twem2@92.40.173.18.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:34:01 early ABCL, perhaps. 20:34:07 and why this amount of code is not dynamically linked to actual task image? Why SBCL does not follow C-like module model? 20:34:27 EarlGray: SBCL wasn't designed for that model. 20:34:40 Common Lisp in general wasn't, arguably. 20:36:27 *_3b* suspects 'nobody cares enough to implement it or fund it' is as big a reason as design 20:37:20 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:37:24 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:38:30 _3b: sure, something like sb-heapdump might be robustified. 20:38:39 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-62-252.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:42 I've been wanting to learn lisp for a while, and slowly poking away at it. I have plans to use it for a web application. How scalable (and via what mechanism) is the lisp engine? is it multi-threaded? 20:41:09 *Xach* achieves stability by relative lack of popularity 20:41:21 I know you can attach to the repl of running image, but does doing so block it's normal operation? 20:41:44 ezakimak: not in a multithreaded lisp like sbcl. 20:41:49 <_3b> depends on the lisp implmentation 20:42:04 ezakimak: http://wigflip.com/ runs on a Lisp webserver and generates tens of thousands of graphics per day. 20:42:39 i update it from the repl or with slime from time to time. doesn't interrupt normal activity. 20:42:51 do I have to be aware of sbcl's internal threading model? 20:43:18 I also, had envisioned, that it could be possible to version the code and have it update itself, how feasible would this be? 20:43:20 I remain unaware. 20:44:03 ezakimak: the main issue that I can see is that updates to many functions won't be atomic. 20:44:05 Well, I guess I'm aware that I need to put locks or other access controls around things that might be updated in multiple threads. 20:44:09 Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:44:37 -!- woudshoo [~user@ironhead.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going to bed] 20:44:38 <_3b> if you want to program threaded code directly, you might need to know details, or maybe a portability lib like bordeaux-threads will be enough, or you could just use an existing web server like hunchentoot and completely ignore everything below that 20:44:39 Xach, as long as there are no subtleties about it 20:45:04 I actually am not big on threading--I prefer event-driven w/async io 20:45:05 learningtouch.com uses hunchentoot running on ccl. it handles about 8-10 hits/sec (mostly small files for display on iphones) all day long. 20:45:31 but it's up to the lisp on how it implements multiple contexts 20:45:41 or clients really 20:46:12 ezakimak: My sense is that if you find something that doesn't work like you want, you might not be able to find other people who have experienced and fixed the problem already. You get to be a pioneer (yay!) or use something other than Lisp (boo). 20:47:40 I guess my question about scaling is really: I want to be able to version my code and have it update itself, but I have to know how the engine is working underneath to ensure updates are performed at a sane timing w/respect to execution of all client requests 20:48:06 (eg, between requests--stall incoming until updated, then let them through again) 20:48:15 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:48:39 ezakimak: I think Daniel Weinreb has written a bit about that at ITA, but I don't know if low-level "here's exactly what we did" details are available. 20:48:41 it's probably much too early for me to worry about this yet 20:48:54 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:48:58 since I'm still learning the language ;) 20:49:20 ezakimak: I had similar requirements last year...IMHO, Lisp has all the plumbing for you to do that...except you will have to define the semantics of what "update" means 20:50:06 ezakimak: is that for development or production? 20:50:08 ezakimak: other languages like Python or Ruby can do that, too...but they already have those semantics defined for you...so it's a tradeoff: control (in Lisp), vs. already included 20:50:10 Drew McDermott wrote http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/papers/lisp05.pdf - "A Framework for Maintaining the Coherence of a Running Lisp" 20:50:21 it would be for production 20:51:07 Xach, thx. 20:51:24 I'm tempted to say YAGNI to that. 20:51:28 Teeko [~Teeko@162.Red-88-22-219.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:48 YAGNI? 20:52:39 You ain't gonna need it? 20:52:44 yep 20:52:54 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:21 jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has joined #lisp 20:53:26 :) 20:53:45 <_3b> there is also the option of just starting a new image for the new code, and just change where the reverse-proxy points once the new code is running 20:53:57 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010646.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:00 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffecab.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 20:54:01 _3b: right. Especially since you're ok with blocking during updates. 20:54:12 hi 20:54:46 (Wheeler's "All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of indirection" in action) 20:55:09 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:55:29 ezakimak: if you want a lisp-like system with non-stop characteristics, you might be interested in LFE - Lisp Flavoured Erlang 20:55:41 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:55:51 There's Termite scheme as well, though I don't know if it's still being worked on 20:55:58 I've looked at erlang briefly. it's architecture is certainly interesting. I even used rabbitmq briefly 20:56:04 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:56:14 dlowe: does Termite include it's equivalent of Erlang's OTP? 20:56:17 -!- jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:09 dlowe: i don't think it's still active, and the work was more concerned with process migration than with supporting live updates, iirc. 20:57:09 p_l|home: no, it's just the underlying ideas of Erlang, expressed in scheme 20:57:54 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:55 dlowe: then it's just a message-passing scheme... OTP is where Erlang starts to really differentiate from simply passing messages, iirc 20:58:00 the other thing I want to do is qt4 from lisp. I found commotqt, but am not sure if it's current or maintained 20:58:01 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:58:14 ezakimak: it's current 20:58:20 and actively maintained 20:58:20 excellent 20:58:34 http://paste.lisp.org/display/120322 20:59:46 is there a uic processor for it? 20:59:57 p_l|home: well, it's also featherweight processes, pattern parsing, and immutable variables. But yeah, it doesn't have any of the stuff that people actually migrate to Erlang for 21:00:04 p_l|home: ILTWYS"J". Having had to implement half of termite for a javascript backend, I can say that migrating continuations and closures is "interesting". 21:00:31 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:07 ^_- 21:01:22 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-39-185.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 21:01:36 pkhuong: I assumed the process migration wasn't finished 21:02:05 it's the interesting part! 21:02:10 feels like christmas, reading the manual for my new toys... :) 21:02:15 pkhuong: true 21:02:39 Process migration was afaik another big part of OTP layer in Erlang... that or managing them, I don't remember if it actually migrated them 21:02:46 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:02:49 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010646.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:02:53 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 21:02:56 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@gate.ipvision.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:03:08 though it's funny when you can't provide version information about a running installation of your software ^^; 21:03:16 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:03:48 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-29-12.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 21:03:53 (something that apparently happens in big Erlang/OTP systems) 21:04:42 pkhuong: according to Wikipedia "All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of indirection" is from Butler Lampson. Wheeler's corollary is, "...except for the problem of too many layers of indirection." 21:05:10 Though I remember hearing a different corollary, "... except performance problems." 21:06:11 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:06:11 heh 21:06:17 that always reminds me of Tierje Mathisen's "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching", to fix the performance problems due to indirection ;) 21:06:22 well, just another point that proves that every rule has an exception 21:06:38 the reason why I love MPlayer was because of how it cut through all the indirect layers :3 21:07:21 Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:07:30 "except for the one I just stated". :) 21:07:39 nice paradox there 21:07:42 heh 21:08:11 ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 21:08:24 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:54 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-39-185.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:13:19 ezakimak: no, there is no uic (but QUiLoader can still be used obviously) 21:13:28 -!- rme [~rme@pool-68-238-4-125.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 21:14:27 well, when I get into it, maybe I'll take a look and see how hard it would be to make one. maybe port pyuic 21:14:36 shaunren [~shaun@bas2-cooksville17-1279412276.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:14:46 pyqt makes for a pretty nice RAD 21:14:54 with qtdesigner 21:14:56 -!- euangelion [~proba@cpe-67-244-127-222.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:15:10 heh 21:17:18 -!- mpereira [~murilo@201.82.50.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:17:32 -!- billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:17:55 ezakimak: you can I think also use that Ecma-script based system for UI programming that is included in Qt 21:18:07 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-34-31.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:19 -!- sylecn [~sylecn@wireless-128-62-87-27.public.utexas.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:22 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-34-31.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:18:23 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:35 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-166692.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:18:43 p_l|home: the reason i love mplayer is that it just plays what i want and doesn't bother me with useless junk 21:18:52 p_l|home, true 21:19:25 mpereira [~murilo@201.82.50.37] has joined #lisp 21:19:29 mplayer is indeed a very nice piece of software 21:19:30 oh, pyuic is actually written in python? that's nice; I only knew Ruby's rbuic which is in C++. 21:19:38 lichtblau, yes 21:19:47 I believe so 21:20:14 they also have a pyrcc to package the resource files 21:20:36 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-165-119.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:14 just checked. pyuic is a python script, pyuic is a c++ prog. 21:21:18 er. pyrcc is C++ 21:21:44 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-171-231.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:21:58 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:23:36 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:31 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.177] has joined #lisp 21:26:36 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:27:01 drdo: true, but it still exposes enough tweaks that I can make it play 1080p video on my puny latop :) 21:28:21 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:28:28 p_l|home, ffmpeg w/vdpau? 21:28:44 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:30:00 haha. "paredit escapes the quotes if you ctrl right arrow an outer set of quotes around a string literal. unicorn rainbow gumdrops." 21:30:14 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has quit [Quit: Oo] 21:31:28 antifuchs: hmm? 21:31:31 c|mell [~cmell@AGrenoble-552-1-160-67.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:31:52 alama: I just saw that on twitter, and though it's a pretty excellent thing to notice (: 21:31:54 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:32:10 and point out that it makes life better by a unicorn rainbow gumdrops degree 21:32:34 <_3b> looks like it escapes \ too, and works for M-" as well 21:32:41 so it does 21:32:46 antifuchs: fun 21:33:27 *_3b* needs to remember to turn off the deleting \ when you delete x in #\x though, that gets annoying 21:34:24 p_l|home: Sure, and that's a good thing 21:34:28 it does, but then it doesn't let you save files that have entirely invalid syntax 21:35:24 <_3b> true, i guess to fix it properly it should wait and delete it if you move without replacing it 21:35:28 I like the audio delay feature quite a lot, let's me watch videos that would otherwise be horrible to watch 21:36:05 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.236.181] has joined #lisp 21:36:09 drdo, what, you delay the audio by the length of the video? how about just mute? lol 21:36:26 -!- waaaaargh [~waaaaargh@agsb-4d049c1d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: WTF? leaving!] 21:36:49 *_3b* likes the 'keep pitch same but play faster' feature, just wishes it would do it for real instead of chopping up bits and rearranging them 21:38:06 <_3b> if decoding the video doesn't even use a whole core, i think the other 3 can manage an fft or 2 :p 21:41:27 ezakimak: No, when the audio and the video are out of sync 21:41:30 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-29-12.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 21:41:46 so you like to "fix" old kung fu movies? :) 21:43:10 mplayer is really what you could call Just Works(TM) <3 21:43:16 Can I have autcompletion in lisp file in emacs, not just repl ? 21:43:57 <_3b> M-C-tab (or variants like esc C-tab, C-M-i, etc)? 21:44:18 <_3b> oops, just M-tab, esc tab 21:44:23 prljavi_hari, see: 19:35 in http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/reference-for-the-slimelispemacs-screencast/ 21:44:25 ok 21:44:45 ezakimak: no 21:45:11 p_l|home, ? 21:45:31 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:45:45 ezakimak: no vdpau 21:45:54 ah. ok. 21:45:55 ezakimak: "mplayer -vo gl2:yuv=2 -vf-clr -af-clr -lavdopts fast:threads=2:skiploopfilter=all" :) 21:46:16 and of course standard framedrop, cache etc. :) 21:47:04 opengl then. ok. 21:48:09 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:48:12 Can I have parenthesses to stay in some color in emacs, like in lispworks ? 21:48:53 probably 21:49:07 how ? 21:49:11 no idea 21:49:32 never had a problem with plain old white parenthesis 21:49:46 I use parenface 21:49:56 same 21:50:10 no, I want them to stay 21:50:34 What i would like is a better identation for IF 21:50:39 to know which are paired last 21:50:44 emacs indents IF-LET the way i want 21:50:46 but not IF 21:51:21 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:52:05 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.34.59.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:52:10 prljavi_jari: I'm not sure I understand 21:52:11 <_3b> M-x show-paren-mode ? 21:52:32 ok 21:52:41 There's also a highlight-parentheses mode 21:52:51 where you don't have to actually be on the parentheses 21:53:06 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:38 -!- waxrose [~waxrose@cpe-24-162-115-160.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:01 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-29-12.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 21:55:09 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-37-121.btc-net.bg] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:55:22 sacho [~sacho@87-126-37-121.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 21:55:29 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 21:57:29 -!- Teeko [~Teeko@162.Red-88-22-219.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Teeko] 22:00:08 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A56D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:57 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d00386d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:10 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:15 redline6561 [~user@cpe-76-184-243-16.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:02 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:07:22 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:42 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:08:07 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:08:25 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:08:59 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5C915D.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:09:22 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 22:10:21 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:12:06 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:12:22 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:30 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-5-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:13:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-183.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:17:22 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:23 -!- c|mell [~cmell@AGrenoble-552-1-160-67.w109-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:17:56 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:18:47 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:51 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:40 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-62-247.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:22:20 -!- keyvan1 [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:43 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 22:23:50 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:21 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:28:32 -!- nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-68-40.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:29:01 nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-110-149.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:29:21 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:30:29 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 22:30:35 v0|d [~user@93.94.250.121] has joined #lisp 22:31:10 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:31:30 lemonodor [~lemonodor@cpe-75-83-150-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:43 sid3k [~user@li140-93.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:59 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:14 guys, I have a naming question. can I name a function as "relative", meaning making something relative? 22:33:31 sid3k: relative to what? 22:33:36 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 22:33:58 relative to current time 22:34:30 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:33 sid3K: what does naming have to do with "relative to current time?" :) 22:35:32 actually its name is "relativeTime" 22:35:41 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:51 but I'm not sure if it's true because I have a poor english 22:36:01 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:10 perhaps pasting some code would help ellucidate. 22:36:34 sid3k: ah! yes, if that is your intent "relativeTime" would communicate the idea that the symbol does something, well, relative to time 22:36:55 simply the function I'm naming takes a timestamp and returns the delta with current time 22:37:10 ale` [~user@109.255.54.142] has joined #lisp 22:37:26 sid3k: sure, makes sense... more of an english than a lisp question, but hey, happy to help :) 22:37:39 Fade: no need to do that, it's a very simple date prettifying function 22:38:06 hi, where can I find a list of standard higher order functions? I noticed I was missing some of them and I don't like to reinvent the wheel. 22:38:07 sid3k: if you understand the word "prettifying" I'd say your english is just fine lol 22:38:12 hargettp_: I know, but I like to get help from you guys :) 22:38:20 -!- Guest96656 [~mau@72.22.178.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:38:23 -!- ch077179 [~urs@xdsl-188-155-1-133.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:39:08 minion? 22:39:22 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.94] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:39:32 clhs 22:39:39 sigh 22:39:40 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:39:47 minion isn't around since a few days 22:40:05 ale`: http://www.l1sp.org/ is a meta reference. 22:40:39 ale`: and the Hyperspec is always a good explanatory baseline: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/ 22:42:44 I know those :-) I was really looking for a comprehensive and synthetic list of higher order functions... I've been using common lisp since years ago, but today I found out I was missing #'constantly, for example 22:42:45 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host89-185-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:43:14 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 22:43:17 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:43:23 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 22:44:17 ccorn [~ccorn@j109182.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 22:48:00 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:16 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 22:48:51 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:49:30 ale`: you might start with the Alexandria docs, see if they've got anything you're missing. 22:50:36 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:51:00 -!- ccorn 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