00:00:08 I installed xfce because it's included in xubuntu, and that was the smallest old ubuntu I could find 00:00:18 but if it works without, don't add it 00:00:20 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:00:21 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-212-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:00:42 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:45 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:01:54 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:17 mathrick: I'm going to clean it out later, but I needed something to move the window for now :) 00:04:53 at the moment it's 1.3G 00:05:01 (with complete Genera install inside) 00:05:06 I_AM_STEVEe [~Steve@c-71-202-181-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:34 -!- I_AM_STEVEe [~Steve@c-71-202-181-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:07:15 hi, I'm using asdf to define a system, say A, which depends on system B. The symbols in A are in package PA, and the symbols in B in the package PB. Package PA :use PB. Where should I place PA's package declaration? (the easiest solution I can think of now is placing it in some file and then use serial dependencies. Is there a cleaner way?) 00:08:43 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:55 ale`: why would this not be clean ? except for the serial deps, it's a good choice 00:10:39 Agari_ [~Agari@185.Red-79-152-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:53 ale`: placing package declarations in a separate file is generally the best option, since it makes the reader happy 00:10:57 -!- Agari [~Agari@185.Red-79-152-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:11:00 -!- Agari_ is now known as Agari 00:11:16 fe[nl]ix: just wondering if I was missing something and using serial deps where they're not necessary :-) 00:11:24 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:17:50 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:18:13 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:19:28 mathrick: http://db.tt/B6WnV4M <--- screen 00:20:05 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-214-254.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:20:46 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22:16 mind you, I managed to land deep in debugger land trying to read help... 00:23:31 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@conffw.macrovision.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:24:30 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.200.195] has joined #lisp 00:25:02 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 00:25:46 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:25:48 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 00:25:53 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:09 p_l|backup: it wasn't stable on xubuntu either 00:26:23 p_l|backup: did you manage to run it without having to set back the clock to 1999? 00:26:58 that's one of the problems in VBox, there's no sure and easy way to tell it to use guest additions but NOT touch the clock 00:27:48 mathrick: ... i didn't even touch the clock 00:27:57 did you install guest additions? 00:28:13 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:17 yes 00:28:21 and what's the system clock in the VM? 00:28:34 it's pretty consistent about not wanting to run from 2000 onwards 00:29:06 current date 00:29:33 mr_gnu [~user@tcttl3stu05.ct.tamus.edu] has joined #lisp 00:29:43 -!- mr_gnu [~user@tcttl3stu05.ct.tamus.edu] has left #lisp 00:30:04 -!- churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:30:04 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:35 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:31:08 p_l|backup: interesting 00:31:17 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:31:18 either way, genera was in no way stable in my experience 00:31:20 mathrick: I know that in my case (OpenGenera 2.0, Genera 8.5) it was pretty consistent *not* to launch if it couldn't get current time from NTP 00:31:29 well, snap4 is a giant hack 00:31:39 so it's probably rather pointless to try to make it stable 00:31:50 it works some times, some times it doesn't and then you restart 00:31:55 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:32:28 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:32:34 yeah, what I hit was a case of Document Examiner making display system use negative indices in aref 00:32:43 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 00:32:52 oh, I've seen that too 00:33:16 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:26 one can only hope that there might be a more affordable "hobbyist" license for VLM for Mac :/ 00:33:30 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:35:21 xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.92] has joined #lisp 00:36:38 or maybe I should reverse engineer Document Examiner :D 00:37:10 churib [~churib@95.156.194.105] has joined #lisp 00:37:33 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.161.218.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:37:37 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-4a5978f2.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 00:39:16 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:45 -!- tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:41:13 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:41:18 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:42:04 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.89.112.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 00:43:20 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:17 -!- xyxu [~xyxu@58.41.1.92] has left #lisp 00:47:33 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:55 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.19.225.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 00:49:50 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:51:04 p_l|backup: I don't see how a VLM for Mac would help me 00:51:14 or you, seeing as you run Win7 00:51:17 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:51:39 VLMware (-: 00:54:24 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.177.79] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:58:15 -!- rien|home is now known as rien 01:00:08 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:01 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 01:02:40 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:03:27 -!- pnq [~nick@host-247.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:04:13 mathrick: stable x86 runtime that could either run in VMware/vbox/hackintosh or disassembled and massaged till running on linux 01:04:54 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:30 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 01:07:32 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:41 p_l|backup: I'm not exactly thrilled by the prospect of running OSX in VBox (which was a pain last I checked) just to run genera 01:08:42 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.89.112.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:09:03 mathrick: me neither, but given that the current VLM build for OSX (or at least, the one I had seen) was basically a "microcode changed for x86-64, rest stays the same", it shouldn't be that hard to port it to more places 01:09:34 assuming anything gets out of that project 01:09:37 you guys trying to run symbolics genera on x86? 01:10:30 QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has joined #lisp 01:11:17 rien: for some values of try. DOes "running but buggy" count as "run" or "trying to run"? 01:11:44 rien: http://db.tt/B6WnV4M 01:11:45 counts as very close to running it well in my book 01:11:50 *rien* clicks 01:12:10 heey that's pretty good 01:12:47 mind you, I got it to show me what happens when compiled code tries to access array with negative index... 01:12:56 p_l|backup: are you following a tutorial from somewherE? 01:13:01 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 01:13:10 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:13:44 only the stuff included in snap4 archive + OpenGenera 2.0 documentation and install scripts for OSF/1 01:14:10 it's fairly runnable most of the time 01:14:29 I'd be running it on stable machine except I have only 32MB of ram in it, no *working* video card and I lack the OSF/1 (got VMS) 01:14:34 some manuals cause it repeatedly to cause negative indices, but most other crashes are transient 01:14:46 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:02 and it happens that Linux' modern-day Xorg has issues with Symbolix CLX 01:15:06 *Symbolics 01:15:14 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 01:15:34 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:27 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:05 heh, seems like I got it stopped somewhere in I/O 01:18:13 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-226-239-19.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 01:18:30 ... oh wow, it was trying to list completions. No wonder it took so long ^^; 01:19:43 heh, I think a reset is in order 01:24:36 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:29 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 01:25:54 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 01:26:16 enthymeme [~kraken@cpe-76-90-52-4.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:33 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:27:45 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:28:20 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@81.193.38.201] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:36:11 -!- easyE [9Tiz9Hu7x6@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:36:39 interesting. Symbolics' CL allows for pkg1:pkg2:symbol kind of reference 01:37:12 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:38:15 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:38:25 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:41 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:40 p_l|backup: have you tried zmacs? 01:41:18 yes, but it isn't that much of a draw for me given that I have SLIME on my normal machine :) 01:42:55 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:43:53 styling extensions to format are funny, though 01:44:15 especially since I can't even type them here! 01:44:41 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:25 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:46:59 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:49:39 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:55 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:50:21 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:52:28 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-45.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:52:58 emporas_ [~emporas@athedsl-170655.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 01:54:12 What is `progn' called `progn'? 01:54:15 Oops 01:54:18 s/What/Why/ 01:54:39 compare with prog1 01:55:01 Yeah, why is `prog1' called `prog'? 01:55:04 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:25 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-167866.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:55:56 well, there's a PROG that lets you do stuff. 01:56:05 literally. it's a grab bag. 01:56:16 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:56:23 prog1 is called prog1 because it returns the first value returned by the first form in its body 01:56:33 progn is called progn because ... (-: 01:57:00 I see. Any idea why it's called a PROG? 01:57:17 my guess it's short for program or something generically unintuitive 01:57:27 back in the day (70s?), there were serious 01:57:28 and this is all apocryphal, anyway, invented when identifiers were short for space reasons 01:57:30 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:57:36 ...performance benefits when you used short names 01:57:56 oudeis [~oudeis@192.156.198.62] has joined #lisp 01:57:59 BrianRice: also, speed. I think you avoided several memory references when using an identifier <6 chars or so 01:58:11 Yeah, I'm just curious. Personally, I use Scheme anyway. 01:58:13 *fds* hides 01:58:15 :-) 01:58:23 ok 01:58:27 heh 01:58:45 been reading Let Over Lambda lately, btw. very opinionated, but seemingly in a good way 01:59:34 heh, I keep meaning to check it out 01:59:42 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:44 might be a fun read even if it should not be a good book (: 01:59:51 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:02 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:24 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:01:20 antifuchs: it's quite good, at least judging by the first 6 chapters, though it got a lot of flak in the beginning which made me very wary of it 02:01:29 leo2007 [~leo@120.37.187.233] has joined #lisp 02:01:32 -!- Agari [~Agari@185.Red-79-152-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 02:02:39 he completely ignores CLOS, but I just read the use of LET bindings as an object and map it to my usual paradigm ;) 02:03:08 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 02:06:04 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-207.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:25 I think the short names are related to SIXBIT, actually 02:06:30 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 02:07:02 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 02:07:14 the same reason why Pascal only cares for first 10 letters without case 02:07:33 Makes sense. 02:08:01 The tradeoffs at the time seem very strange now. 02:09:04 a 6 letter/digit symbol could have its name checked with single comparison instruction on initial developement machines used for lisp, while Pascal packed 10 letters into 60bit words of the supercomputer it was running on 02:09:17 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 02:10:04 (ITS' filesystem used 4 36bit words for pathnames, for example) 02:11:15 A good thing. Imagine if LISP had built lists with CONTENTS-OF-DECREMENT-REGISTER etc (: 02:11:43 splittist: on old terminals, nobody would have had the patience to type those identifiers, anyway (: 02:11:47 (or read them.) 02:12:36 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:12:42 what terminals? :P 02:13:19 (there is a pretty good story about it in some text about origins of TECO) 02:14:18 p_l|backup: the original lisp demo was supposed to be hilarious, according to "The Dream Machine" 02:14:44 I find the story behind the first interpreter even more hilarious :) 02:14:55 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.177] has joined #lisp 02:15:16 if I recall it correctly, mccarthy was typing in front of an audience and got interrupted by "The garbage collector has been invoked. Some interesting statistics are..." 02:15:27 at one char per second or so (: 02:15:47 and people just started laughing because nobody was familiar with the technological garbage collector (: 02:17:46 anyway. The Dream Machine. good book. read it. 02:18:06 Definitely! 02:19:52 ah yeah. http://books.google.com/books?id=7HpQAAAAMAAJ&q=%22the+garbage+collector%22&dq=%22the+garbage+collector%22&ei=kW5kTdP_F5OuNpirpbIM&cd=6 is the passage (hit the "search" button) 02:20:00 I liked the story about how a student comes to McCarthy and says that his "thinking tool" can be implemented by writing EVAL in assembler 02:20:23 (wow, that is the first time I used google books to search through my bookshelf. works really well) 02:22:05 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:22:36 -!- sglinux [~sglinux@cm30.beta201.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:22:52 antifuchs: indeed, prog1 and progn come from prog, as an abbreviation for "program feature". It was more like tagbody, originally. 02:23:04 ah, heh 02:23:12 "program feature"? how does that make sense? 02:23:35 Or, perhaps like progv? 02:23:53 Check line 2016 of lisp 1.5 asm listing. 02:23:58 s/listing/source/ 02:24:20 If you substitute 'procedure' for 'program' it might make more sense. 02:24:21 antifuchs: I guess that was by opposition to "functions". 02:24:53 Probably more insight might be gained by consulting the lisp 1.5 manual. 02:25:26 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:25:29 i suspect full understanding might require familiarity with "multiprogram systems" and how new they were :D 02:25:40 Or, perhaps http://www.uni-koeln.de/REDUCE/3.6/doc/sl/node17.html 02:26:08 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-207.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:26:31 Interesting stuff, guys. Thanks. :-) 02:27:25 abend` [~user@alpha.muted.org] has joined #lisp 02:31:05 -!- abend [~user@alpha.muted.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:31:11 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 02:32:41 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night] 02:34:49 I just found out the test-handlers.lisp sanity check for hunchentoot uses a let over defun. :) 02:45:10 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 02:45:31 -!- xristos is now known as Guest86193 02:47:47 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:00 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:10 greetings #lispers, what's new and exciting? 02:49:07 rootlocus [~rootlocus@2402:1800:1:2801:226:4aff:fe09:eee2] has joined #lisp 02:50:09 hey drewc 02:50:15 welcome back 02:50:36 it's temporary, just waiting for Xach in #quicklisp :) 02:51:07 biely [~eleasah@ip208-103-38-36.dyn.mintel.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:10 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:51:10 *drewc* has found his break from IRC to be most productive and intends to continue it 02:51:58 heh 02:52:20 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:52:41 drewc: anything interesting? 02:53:00 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:41 slyrus: https://github.com/drewc/planks is my latest project... it's a 100% CL based append-only top-down b+tree and a persistent CLOS built on them 02:54:59 basically, couchdb in CL 02:55:10 whee 02:55:40 shhh, sounds like allegrocache 02:55:41 it works, biut i 02:55:52 but i'm trimming bytes as it's a bit heavy on the disk 02:56:04 it probably is allegrocache 02:56:14 i can't really see many other ways to do this :) 02:56:36 basically, i needed something highly concurrent for reading... no locks 02:59:23 and no bloody with-db or with-transaction forms everywhere! 02:59:59 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:21 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:03:28 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:04:16 the data structures themselves are both persistent, and persistent :) 03:05:40 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:51 -!- biely [~eleasah@ip208-103-38-36.dyn.mintel.net] has left #lisp 03:06:42 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:08:08 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:08:51 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:11:28 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632570.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:12:36 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:12:51 -!- whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-157-162.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:14:43 I've started the hunchentoot test with (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :hunchentoot-test) but how do I stop it without having to kill my lisp session? 03:15:20 whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-157-162.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:59 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441906.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:17:41 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 03:18:56 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 03:21:47 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:30:02 drewc: nice. on a slightly related note, have you ever looked at the GiST (I know overloaded name) stuff from Joe Hellerstein's group? 03:31:20 -!- pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Quit: pabst] 03:31:44 it's basically an abstraction of search trees such that one can, with the same interface, code up b-trees, r-trees, kd-trees, etc... 03:34:32 M-sprite [~M-sprite@218.74.180.233] has joined #lisp 03:37:25 slyrus: i have come across that before, but it seems much more relevant now :) 03:37:31 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@218.74.180.233] has quit [Client Quit] 03:37:36 heh, ok 03:38:55 *drewc* digs into some GiST papers 03:39:02 slyrus: thanks! 03:40:28 slyrus: ah, PostGis, that's where i've heard of this before 03:41:03 umesh [~user@adsl-75-53-123-94.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:36 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:45:03 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:45:35 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.231] has joined #lisp 03:46:47 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:50:27 pers [~user@189.sub-75-193-236.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:50:28 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:52:13 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@192.156.198.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:52:50 kushal 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[Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:12:29 -!- H4ns`` is now known as H4ns 10:14:29 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:24 easyE [kP9AABf8eu@panix2.panix.com] has joined #lisp 10:15:49 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:06 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:18:08 johan__ [c10d46fb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.13.70.251] has joined #lisp 10:18:25 Men det e ju det... De e. 10:18:35 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:18:40 Det låter som cancer. 10:18:45 -!- johan__ [c10d46fb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.13.70.251] has left #lisp 10:19:25 m1ngus [~Adium@tunnel-32-148.vpn.uib.no] has joined #lisp 10:20:02 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:20:54 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:54 _mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 10:21:33 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:22:05 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:23:10 ohih0wru [~andrei@87.226.100.170] has joined #lisp 10:23:51 -!- mducharme [~nothing@S0106002401f31855.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:26:45 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:26:54 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 10:28:12 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-212-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:28:38 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-212-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:31:25 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:31:39 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-fspdcrrmpwfslpae] has joined #lisp 10:31:40 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 10:33:36 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-76-78-229.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:33:53 ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-76-78-229.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:04 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:40 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:36:11 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:36:29 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 10:36:47 psilord1 [~psilord@76.201.144.30] has joined #lisp 10:38:05 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:38:48 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:40:28 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 10:41:14 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:16 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:15 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:46:00 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:49:54 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:50:04 -!- |rgs| [~hujvpalto@109-184-40-163.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [] 10:51:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:51:54 -!- lorenz_ [~moesenle@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52:21 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@213.158.217.81] has quit [Quit: bbl] 10:53:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-136.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:54:24 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:33 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-212-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:57:20 *arbscht* is pleased to report that the first formal auckland lisp user group meetup of 2011 was attended by 9 people :) 10:59:06 myu2_ [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:59:06 arbscht: Congratulations! Anyone I know? 11:00:29 beach: not this time, but some of them are likely to attend in the future 11:01:12 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:01:22 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-212-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:01:41 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:02:20 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:02:46 arbscht: and how much smug lisp weenies? 11:03:12 at least one! 11:03:17 stassats: just me :) 11:03:36 *easyE* needs more Lisp news. 11:04:25 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.19.118.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 11:05:05 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-207.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:08 Mebbe I'll go slummin' with #clojure 11:05:10 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-170655.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:05:40 boo 11:06:33 Agreed. I should *make* some CL news. 11:07:51 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:12 Odin- [~sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:09:20 lundis [~lundis@dyn56-264.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 11:09:21 _danb_` [~user@124-168-189-41.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:09:33 easyE: write a blog-post on "how smug lisp weenies hurt lisp" 11:09:56 or, "how #lisp hurts lisp" 11:10:37 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-silsocwdzijgsgyk] has joined #lisp 11:10:50 That's pretty incendiary, but mebbe. 11:11:28 *easyE* goes back to bugging maintainers to accept patches for ABCL. 11:12:00 there have been a series of stackoverflow questions along the lines of "some guy told me CLOS is great. but i can't see anything great about it. what's the big deal?" and similar things for smalltalk, emacs+slime, cl-ppcre, etc. 11:12:35 easyE: that way smug weenies or #lisp denizens will write a ton of refuting posts, and you'll get more "CL news" 11:12:45 Seems like softballs, pitched slow and up-the-middle. 11:12:51 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:25 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:16:20 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 11:18:40 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:23:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:23:53 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 11:23:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 11:27:00 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ryjlatlpksfbmwsz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:15 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bbpkjwagerseqcfm] has joined #lisp 11:28:23 beach: cool funded PhD place at LaBRI that I've just seen advertised on music-ir 11:30:26 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 11:31:39 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:34:21 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:20 -!- ale` [~user@109.255.54.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:37:44 CASSANO [~kasiki@78.58.239.88] has joined #lisp 11:39:23 *dmiles_afk* just added Clojure to the secondlife bot scripting tool. ABCL i had already done.. but got to freshen it up soon 11:39:40 -!- CASSANO [~kasiki@78.58.239.88] has left #lisp 11:39:56 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:32 *dmiles_afk* actual assignment though was to add SWI-prolog by saturday's SFBay meetup 11:40:34 -!- ohih0wru [~andrei@87.226.100.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:41:31 Blkt [~user@93-33-132-65.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:42:27 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BD55.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:10 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:44:20 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:44:55 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:44:56 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:27 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:48:12 ohih0wru [~andrei@87.226.100.170] has joined #lisp 11:49:40 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-151-136.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:50:53 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:51:08 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 11:51:23 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51:55 good day everyone 11:52:30 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:53:33 Hello Blkt 11:54:06 Krystof: Excellent! Do you know any candidates? 11:54:21 hi beach 11:54:29 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:54:43 is it possible to set a default controller for a certain module in configuration ini file without having to write a plugin for that? 11:55:01 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:13 ohih0wru: what are you talking about? 11:55:17 ohih0wru: Er, what is this? 11:55:57 *facepalm* :) mischose the channel :))))))) i love lisp :D 11:55:59 "default controller" sounds like some Java thing 11:56:07 hi fe[nl]ix 11:56:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:56:23 hi Blkt :) 11:56:24 brr... it was meant for php 11:57:07 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:55 that's even worse 11:59:14 ohih0wru: and you won't bribe us with your smileys rich in parentheses 11:59:36 :) 11:59:49 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:00:08 well, if it comes to web - php is ak47. 12:00:42 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:01:55 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bbpkjwagerseqcfm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:02:16 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:03:36 i find that offensive! 12:03:40 ohih0wru: no, because PHP is not elegant. 12:04:22 phih0wru: and it certainly doesn't "just work" without maintenance. 12:04:45 yeah, ak47 it isn't 12:05:12 easyE, I haven't chosen to learn Lisp just because lots of parentheses look elegant. But because it's structure permits no limit. 12:05:12 ak47 is simple, reliable and to the point 12:05:57 ak47:lisp::.38-snubnose:pho 12:06:04 PHP is a badly-assembled PPSZa :P 12:06:04 ohih0wru: actually the parens are rather elegant when you get used to them 12:06:09 (from the faulty seris) 12:06:10 ak47:lisp::.38-snubnose:php 12:06:12 *series) 12:06:31 easyE: Symbolics CL? 12:06:36 Blkt` [~user@93-33-132-65.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:07:45 p_l: Good point against my syllogism. 12:08:16 I just noted that your syntax resembled what I've read yesterday in Genera :D 12:08:39 (multiple package reference levels, that is) 12:09:06 Ah. No, it is standard logical syntax in American High Schools for a four-way logical relationship. 12:09:35 As reified on US SATs. 12:10:00 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-132-65.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:10:06 interesting... I only used mathematical syntax for logical relationships (which is kinda untypeable into IRC without jumping through hoops to enter apropriate UTF-8 codepoints) 12:10:30 and I only did Subject Tests (Math I and Physics) from SATs :D 12:10:45 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-8b92e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:10:55 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 12:10:55 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 12:10:55 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:11:10 It is usually used for vocabularly. 12:11:13 sp. 12:11:27 hmm... 12:11:42 s/volcabularly/vocabulary/ 12:11:47 mathrick, I don't find parens ugly. I just think that it's just one of it's perfect attributes. 12:11:55 *easyE* workers of the world, untie! 12:12:52 p_l|backup: so where can I have a go at your VM? 12:13:04 easyE: In polish we don't use any special syntax for vocabulary, but grammar uses 2D tree diagrams that reflect sentence/sentence-equivalent structure 12:13:05 easyE: got a few minutes ? 12:13:10 mathrick: I need to find a place to upload it 12:13:27 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 12:13:40 p_l|backup: how big is it as a compressed packaged appliance? 12:13:48 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:13:52 you can export directly from vbox 12:14:06 Sure. 12:14:20 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:14:26 About the ABCL b-t patch... 12:14:31 yeah 12:15:06 mathrick: currently exporting it 12:15:31 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:15:39 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:15:41 I could make it smaller by removing the fils I don't have license to distribute (stuff to copy from OG2 cd) 12:15:46 http://detroit.slack.net/~evenson/abcl/bordeaux-threads-abcl-20110216a.diff 12:16:08 p_l|backup: no, you couldn't, since vdisks don't get smaller when you delete files, they get bigger :) 12:16:34 that's how I broke my VM, I was trying to move everything to a completely fresh vdisk to make it the minimal size 12:16:52 I succeeded in this regard (1.9G vs. 3.3G), but it refused to boot 12:17:50 mathrick: to be exact, you can, but it requires a little work usually. Since I transplanted in-place my work laptop once, I'm not afraid :-) 12:18:05 the compressed .OVA image is 0.5G 12:18:28 easyE: why replace threads:thread-lock with java.util.concurrent.locks.ReentrantLock ? 12:18:29 that sounds manageable 12:18:40 p_l|backup: filevo.com should be alright 12:19:07 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 12:19:13 sglinux [~sglinux@cm92.delta178.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 12:19:15 Because I can use the same abstraction for re-entrant and non-re-entrant code. 12:19:21 (which wasn't working before). 12:19:30 The tests didn't pass, now they do. 12:19:42 mathrick: it will take time to upload, though 12:19:54 s/code/code aquiring non-reentrant mutexs/ 12:19:59 p_l|backup: that's a given 12:20:01 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:20:13 p_l|backup: you can always make a bittorrent, too 12:20:50 easyE: I don't like the current implementation because it's possible to call acquire-recursive-lock on a non-recursive lock 12:20:56 easyE: and the same about release-lock 12:21:06 fine. You want two separate CLOS instances? 12:21:26 yes 12:21:27 I watrying just to use DEFSTRUCT for efficiency. 12:21:40 mathrick: well, it predicts somwhere around 3h of upload time 12:21:55 Which inherits from the other? 12:22:45 p_l|backup: then it'd be worthwile to make a BT instead 12:23:05 then I can just have your bandwidth directly, instead of waiting for you to upload, then waiting for myself to download 12:23:05 easyE: no, just two different structs 12:23:19 okey dokey. 12:23:28 easyE: and if acuire-lock is called recursively, it should signal an error, not a warning 12:23:45 warning->error: check. 12:24:48 Gotta clean up after lunch, and get the kid her nap. I'll post mail to b-t with those changes. Anything else? 12:26:18 mathrick: it would still be slow, anyway. But I'll try making it into bittorrent 12:28:31 p_l|backup: yes, but less slow 12:28:37 release-lock should signal an error as well when the lock wasn't held 12:28:43 it'll be just 3h, instead of 3h + download time 12:29:18 (when (not lock-held-p) (error ...)): check 12:29:53 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:30:55 easyE: I pushed part of that patch to the repo 12:31:42 Alright. Does it pass the tests? 12:32:10 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:32:23 easyE: I'll test that after these changes 12:33:07 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:25 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 12:33:48 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 12:33:52 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:34:29 good morning all...simple question: if I have a string that I know is delimited with 2 consecutive newlines, then why does (search 12:34:31 ugh 12:34:48 (search "#\Newline#\Newline" some-large-string) return nil? 12:35:23 Was expecting to find the 1st occurrence of a pair of new lines in some-large-string 12:35:40 "#\Newline#\Newline" is not a pair of newlines 12:35:49 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:36:05 ah...so how would I express that? 12:36:20 is it just an ugly string the way I wrote it? :) 12:36:23 *p_l|backup* ponders how long it will take to hash a torrent on 200 MHz MIPS 12:36:46 p_l|backup: why not on the nachine you keep th VM on? 12:37:06 making a torrent with µtorrent is trivial 12:37:15 (format nil "~%~%") ? 12:37:27 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 12:37:27 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 12:37:27 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 12:37:36 yep, that worked...is that "good enough?" 12:38:03 *hargettp* suddenly realizes he needs more coffee, because he's never seen character literals like #\Newline used inline with lisp strings..duh 12:38:34 Zhivago: (format nil "~2%") ? 12:38:47 hargettp: it's a reasonable mistake, given the influence of C 12:39:15 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:39:21 yes, I think I am wearing my C hat...wanting "\n\n" :) 12:39:33 thanks all 12:39:54 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:59 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:48 -!- _danb_` [~user@124-168-189-41.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:44:24 different, random question: is there any kind of emerging convention at all about _package_documentation? I know that symbols have docstrings, but what if one wants a "docstring" associated with the package as a whole, not a specific symbol in the package? 12:44:25 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:44:43 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:45:28 hargettp: (:documentation "A docstring") 12:45:30 hargettp: (defpackage rtfm (:use :brain) (:export :knowledge) (:documentation "rtfm")) 12:45:49 ah....in the defpackage statement...good idea... 12:46:30 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 12:46:33 (setf (documentation (find-package :package) t) "Documentation") 12:46:55 and thus (documentation (find-package :package) t) would retrieve it...perfect 12:46:59 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:12 I love that usually CL has thought of this stuff....just a matter of where it's "buried".... :) 12:48:00 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:48:12 hargettp: uhm. package documentation in a defpackage sounds like the perfect and obvious "grave" to me =) 12:48:33 :) 12:48:55 I once wrote a documentation hyperlinker and groveller that used as its root the package and its docstring 12:49:04 don't kill it prematurely 12:49:05 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:49:14 (it was just a toy) 12:49:35 Krystof: yeah, that's I'm trying to do for the packages I publish 12:50:12 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 12:55:21 Agari [~Agari@185.Red-79-152-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:23 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 12:57:20 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-155-197.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:57:20 I need a bit of a hand detecting EOFs on socket reds 12:57:23 reads 12:58:05 wait-for-input returns immediately, the socket is still open-stream-p, and read-sequence returns immediately with no updates 12:58:16 (read-byte socket-stream nil #:hand) 12:58:43 the manually shove the byte into the sequence if it actually receives? 12:58:50 that's pretty clunky 12:59:13 well, you didn't say that you don't use read-byte! 12:59:33 I said I am using read-sequence though 12:59:38 which doesn't error on eof 13:00:07 you said it after i wrote what i wrote 13:00:12 ah 13:00:24 type faster ;) 13:00:41 i prefer quality over quantity 13:00:48 and read-sequence is know for this 13:00:57 anyway, is there some hidden way to check EOF manually without forcing a read? 13:01:01 (not handling eof well) 13:01:06 clhs listen 13:01:50 ah, thanks. Kind of a weird name for that one 13:02:10 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:03:31 cool, workage 13:04:09 do + read-sequence = nice tight buffer filling loop 13:05:48 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:07 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-czzqcazugypitbgs] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:08:03 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-207.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:08:16 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:08:20 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:08:51 what happened to specbot anyway? 13:08:54 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.250.41] has joined #lisp 13:09:20 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 13:09:24 slacking off again 13:10:53 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:11:10 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:45 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:15:33 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:16:22 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 13:17:24 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:33 tcr [~tcr@217-162-207-164.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:18:43 schoppenhauer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has joined #lisp 13:18:47 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@2a01:4f8:101:281:7ad5:1003:0:1] has quit [Changing host] 13:18:47 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:21:16 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-79-127.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:22:50 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:08 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-btdiacpxgtimtxma] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:23:24 reb [~user@nat/google/x-arsszdzbindagkri] has joined #lisp 13:24:00 confounds [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:53 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:09 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 13:26:09 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 13:26:09 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 13:28:32 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:33:31 TeMPOraL [~user@static-195-114-183-51.devs.futuro.pl] has joined #lisp 13:33:43 whee, #'listen reports nil when it's closed, even if there's still data to be read 13:33:54 *Phoodus* ditches do for labels & cond 13:34:27 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 13:35:15 Phoodus: and what are you doing? 13:35:34 talking to erlang 13:35:48 when you hit its daemon with a request, it sends it back & closes the socket 13:35:52 no, i mean specifically with read-sequence, reading until it hits EOF? 13:35:59 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-79-127.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:00 so there's data in the buffer still to be read, even though listen returns nil 13:36:12 I've got a known length on each read 13:36:27 but I can't just blindly error out on (not (listen stream)) 13:36:59 and the problem with read-sequence in this case is ...? 13:37:04 only if read-sequence returns the same offset as it's given, and it's not finished, do I check listen 13:37:33 mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-fahuwgvzlfeuxbou] has joined #lisp 13:37:35 the only hangup is that listen doesn't wait until the buffer's empty before telling you it's closed 13:38:01 where as an EOF-triggering byte read would have done so 13:38:20 would peek-char suffice? 13:39:01 ah, probably 13:39:06 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.182.134] has joined #lisp 13:39:16 it's got an eof-value 13:39:21 but still, shouldn't just read-sequence work? 13:39:24 but this way of using listen seems to work 13:39:36 read-sequence works fine for reading bytes 13:39:40 detecting EOF is the issue 13:40:12 but if you know the exact number of bytes to read, is that a problem? 13:40:14 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-194-152.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:40:22 I do know the exact number 13:40:44 thus a preallocated buffer that it fills 13:41:11 if position returned by read-sequence is less then the size of the sequence, then it means that EOF was encountered 13:41:14 Phoodus: You should be able to use the semantics of read-sequence alone to receive the data. 13:42:02 hm, the spec only says that it might be less than the ending offset on eof 13:42:09 doesn't say that it'll go back to 0 or anything 13:42:21 Go back to 0? 13:42:38 the return value is bound to (integer 0 buffer-length) 13:43:08 Phoodus: Do you see how you can use that to detect when you have reached EOF? 13:43:29 not at the moment 13:43:58 Phoodus: if you have a sequence of size 1000, and you (read-sequence sequence stream), and it returns 500, you have 500 elements of data and eof on your hands. 13:43:59 the only case in which it won't be equal to buffer-length is when it encountered an EOF along the way 13:44:10 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 13:44:18 Xach: so it will block until the entire buffer is full? 13:44:23 with no timeout option 13:44:24 ? 13:44:28 yes 13:44:30 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:44:31 Phoodus: yes. there's no way to read only what's available with CL semantics. 13:44:33 that's terrible 13:44:41 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:45:38 well, maybe with read-char-no-hang or peek-char it'd be possible :-P 13:45:40 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:45:51 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@87.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:45:55 do you need non-blocking io? 13:46:14 I/O multiplexing is something you have to get extra-spec for, in general. 13:46:30 iolib might be a good candidate for that 13:46:32 well, I am using usocket. I don't know how much that does for me, as the docs dont' get too detailed 13:46:42 but they still rely on streams to do the actual reading 13:46:56 iolib compiled with problems last time I tried it 13:47:04 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:09 but I can look at it again 13:47:47 I'd hate to do work over, but at least the actual socket code is pretty bounded in here 13:47:51 -!- Fill [~Fill@static.195.170.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has left #lisp 13:48:23 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:39 sacho [~sacho@87-126-7-67.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 13:50:48 yeah, iolib has :wait-all and :dont-wait on receive 13:51:05 but I think I can block my reader thread on this for now, and port over if it becomes a problem 13:51:22 amb007 [~a_bakic@87.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:05 sockets have rather awful semantics in general, and in conjunction with CL semantics in particular 13:54:32 *mathrick* wasn't happy last time he had to use sockets 13:54:49 I wouldn't call them awful; they've got the same issues as any async system 13:54:54 kind of hard to avoid that 13:55:02 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.171] has joined #lisp 13:55:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:56:39 Phoodus: they're slightly badder than just that, because there's no real way to catch "socket closed", even if the OS knows it to be closed 13:56:58 so you just wait until it fails hard enough at reads 13:57:24 yeah, those are 2 different cases: Catch EOF and abort, vs finish reading the buffers 13:57:26 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:57:28 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:57:33 not really 1 way to cater to both needs 13:59:44 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.228] has joined #lisp 14:02:39 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 14:03:25 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:13 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-jwdjvgltqmodkiza] has joined #lisp 14:06:39 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:08:34 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:44 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:48 -!- Agari [~Agari@185.Red-79-152-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:10:54 Agari [~Agari@185.Red-79-152-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:54 Genieliu [~genie@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 14:13:27 they also have the issue of being a square peg jammed into a round hole (TOPS into Unix) 14:16:45 -!- abend` is now known as abend 14:17:20 -!- Davsebamse [~das@office.ipvision.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:17:50 -!- sglinux [~sglinux@cm92.delta178.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:18:23 sy` [~user@cpe-24-162-115-160.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:00 madsenz1 [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:17 gko_ [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:40 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:20:44 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:46 -!- gko_ [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:21:04 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:59 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:30 gko` [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:15 fe[l]nix: that patch to b-t is worthless as it stands: It won't run on post abcl-0.23.0. 14:29:07 why ? 14:29:14 Good morning everyone. 14:29:31 Because we removed symbols that were marked for removal in 0.18.0 14:29:49 i.e. the everything was moved into the threads package. 14:30:08 sglinux [~sglinux@cm80.delta178.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:30:36 Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has joined #lisp 14:31:54 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 14:31:59 sy: mornin' 14:32:12 ^__^ 14:32:23 easyE: I don't understand the problem. b-t HEAD doesn't use any symbol in EXT any more 14:32:37 Funny, I was just not listening to some eazy e. 14:32:39 Ok. When did that change? 14:32:40 now* 14:33:33 'sup to the m0ther-fsckin' E, my n3rds! 14:33:53 4 Fo' 14:33:58 easyE: http://gitorious.org/bordeaux-threads/bordeaux-threads/commit/314e67cbe309c3b1b2e9a95f47c7c0a7fb8a52b7 14:34:10 Lisp side!? 14:34:12 lol.. 14:34:48 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:35:07 Ok. So you did commit something three days ago. I didn't catch that. 14:35:40 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:07 *easyE* browses recent b-t's changesets. 14:36:55 Why do you all prefer gitorious? 14:37:05 sy`: few prefer gitorious. 14:37:09 *easyE* doesn't. He's an hg fan. 14:37:21 oh ok 14:37:54 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@76.201.144.30] has left #lisp 14:38:34 I only use hg for mozilla-cental. 14:38:34 gitorious seems less common than github 14:38:53 p_l|backup: Yeah, I only have experience with github. 14:38:56 repo.cz is also used by several projects 14:38:59 hi 14:39:00 fe[nl]ix: Yeah, that version of b-t craps the load on the test suite. 14:39:23 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:39:30 gko_ [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:27 fe[nl]ix: which is the "cleanest" impl-XXX.lisp in b-t? SBCL? 14:40:59 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 14:41:02 whew... my dogs just came inside the house smelling like a couple of cold fusion programmers >.< 14:41:32 easyE: sbcl and clozure 14:41:33 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:45:11 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:39 gko [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:27 -!- gko_ [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has left #lisp 14:48:14 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:57 -!- rien|wor` [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:15 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:25 easyE: if you can add the locks and condition variables to abcl, I'd be fine with requiring abcl 0.25 in the next release of B-T 14:52:27 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.9.79.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:53:01 benny` [~benny@i577A3F1D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:10 fe[nl]ix: Eventually. Right now I want to patch b-t so hunchentoot can work "in the wild" 14:54:42 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:52 -!- dkasak_ is now known as dkasak 14:55:08 ok 14:55:10 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:55:25 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:30 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:32 These Java constructs *are* the primitives. 14:56:54 -!- Genieliu [~genie@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:58:47 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 15:00:23 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:01:16 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:09:21 dkasak_ [~dkasak@78-1-178-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:10:03 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@93-138-55-221.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:10:12 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-jwdjvgltqmodkiza] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:11:03 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:11:40 -!- mgindulescu [~mircea@nat/nokia/x-fahuwgvzlfeuxbou] has left #lisp 15:13:25 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-79-127.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 15:13:43 slash_ [~unknown@pD955D02B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:42 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-116-48.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:15:24 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 15:16:34 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:16:53 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 15:17:02 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:12 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 15:19:27 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 15:19:35 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:20:06 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:23:29 Hi [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:53 -!- Hi is now known as Guest46457 15:25:10 gko_ [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:38 -!- Davsebamse [~das@94.127.50.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:56 rins` [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:59 wubo [80f40909@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.244.9.9] has joined #lisp 15:33:58 pers [~user@214.sub-75-193-10.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:58 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-116-48.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:42 fe[nl]ix: something went wrong with bringing my patch forward. I'll have to get to this later. 15:36:03 ok 15:36:59 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-silsocwdzijgsgyk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:33 My patch makes b-t ABCL pass more tests than b-t on gitorious, but it is still failing to include MAKE-THREAD properly. 15:37:47 -!- gko_ [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:39:45 -!- sglinux [~sglinux@cm80.delta178.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:39:48 jmckitrick [~user@adsl-176-181-200.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:23 leo2007 [~leo@120.37.103.27] has joined #lisp 15:41:18 -!- tompa [~thomas@90-231-183-240-no39.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:42:59 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.19.118.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 15:43:05 gko_ [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:05 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 15:43:15 Liera_ [~Liera@123.20.61.220] has joined #lisp 15:43:46 Newbie here,im trying to copy an array with the method used in alexandria(undisplacing) but the resulting array always is adjustable, regardless of how you specify the arguments 15:44:16 in SBCL that is, in CLISP the resulting array type is the same as te original 15:44:28 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44:52 Sprayzor: in CL, it is not guaranteed that arrays will not be adjustable if you don't ask for adjustability 15:44:57 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.60.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:46:24 anybody here interested in slime-cover? 15:46:26 -!- Liera_ is now known as Liera 15:46:36 Sprayzor: that's was a subject of a recent debate 15:46:49 MoALTz [~no@92.9.79.177] has joined #lisp 15:47:11 jmckitrick: hi, i now have sbcl commit bit, so it'd be easier to integrate sb-cover changes to sbcl 15:47:25 He's gone mad with his moderate amount of power! 15:47:25 i expect to get some more free-time in march 15:48:07 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.19.118.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 15:48:49 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:53 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:50:29 esalmon [~androirc@32.171.6.117] has joined #lisp 15:51:08 Liera_ [~Liera@113.172.58.244] has joined #lisp 15:51:40 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:52:33 hello 15:53:00 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:25 -!- Liera [~Liera@123.20.61.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:54:09 /quit 15:54:18 -!- esalmon [~androirc@32.171.6.117] has quit [Client Quit] 15:54:21 stassats: excellent. It would be nice to get it integrated, and the sbcl commit bit will allow you to push those local changes into the codebase. 15:54:33 ping me when you're ready to work on it again. 15:54:46 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:54:53 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:19 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 15:55:24 jmckitrick: yea, I live slime-cover. 15:55:29 s/live/love/ 15:55:30 jmckitrick: do you use it yourself? 15:55:59 -!- gko_ [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:56:08 pers: any bugs/suggestions? 15:56:19 stassats: not at this point. works for me. 15:56:25 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 15:56:33 much nicer that haveing to use a web browser. 15:56:40 viva la emacs! 15:57:04 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:03 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:23 rien [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:31 -!- Liera_ is now known as Liera 15:58:38 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-hoovqqbefyrwhuzj] has joined #lisp 15:59:45 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:00:31 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:03:16 So as i understood the logs, make-array when porducing a displaced array always makes it adjustable too... 16:03:19 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:20 -!- gko` [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:03:44 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: I'll see you on the dark side of the moon] 16:04:01 thus adjust-array is just sticking to the "conserve original type" by making the undisplaced array adjustable too 16:04:22 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955D02B.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 16:04:45 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:05:41 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:05:51 pers: very nice to hear it's being used! I didn't think anyone knew about it yet. 16:06:08 jmckitrick: i advertised it a bit here 16:06:09 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:06:09 urandom__ [~user@p548A41F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:10 stassats: I haven't used it a lot lately, but enough to be sure it WFM. 16:06:22 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:07:03 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:17 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 16:07:25 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:08:19 Now the question is, why must a displaced array be adjustable? 16:08:59 it mustn't? 16:09:10 err, that came off wrong 16:09:35 rather, it must? 16:10:12 *pers* mines the lisp seam for jewels. 16:10:19 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 16:10:39 Well SBCL at least always returns an adjustable array when displacing 16:11:01 well, that's what sbcl decides to do 16:11:28 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 16:11:57 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-116-48.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:12:09 So its a bug or something its left for implementsors to decide? 16:12:13 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:25 it's something implementation dependent 16:12:41 "There is no specified way to create an array for which adjustable-array-p definitely returns false." 16:13:37 Sprayzor: i propose the following solution: a) don't use alexandria:copy-array b) send a patch to alexandria which will use explicit copying 16:15:05 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-8b92e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 16:16:06 On a slightly related topic, is there any way to get declared variable types at macroexpansion time besides the &environment ? 16:16:58 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:16:58 strictly speaking, there's no way at all 16:17:07 -!- Guest46457 [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:17:15 -!- jmckitrick [~user@adsl-176-181-200.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:17:29 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:17:31 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:33 i presume you're talking about cltl2:variable-information? what doesn't satisfy you in &environment? 16:17:34 So instead is ther any way tf declaring a variable to be the same type of a previously declared one? 16:17:54 Liera_ [~Liera@113.172.62.241] has joined #lisp 16:18:15 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-beictthirpdkvyuw] has joined #lisp 16:18:16 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:18:31 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:18:48 Like for example you declare the type of a struct's slot and then declare the result of the slot-copy to be the same as the one you declared 16:19:23 wslot-copy? 16:19:28 s/w// 16:19:52 An imaginary copy-function 16:19:57 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.58.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:20:28 for structures, there's COPY-STRUCTURE 16:20:49 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:05 But it doesnt deep copy I presume 16:21:12 no 16:21:20 yes 16:21:27 So i make a func to deep copy my struct 16:21:28 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:22:08 you can't do that portably in any case 16:22:41 at run-time, i mean 16:23:42 astoon [~astoon@109.188.239.51] has joined #lisp 16:24:06 Ok enough dabbling with partial ideas, im making an abomination macro that expands to the code necessary to copy an array(explicit if necessary) but i cant trim the monster expansion beacuse the type information is not avaliable at macroexpansion unless I rely on cltl2 extensions 16:24:50 why do you need a macro to copy an array? 16:24:58 and why do you need type information? 16:25:54 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:26:13 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:26:37 -!- super` [~super_@pool-173-65-48-189.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:26:40 To make the copy proces(when explicit) take advantage of the declared type instead of just stuffing it into a function and not letting it know if its copying an ARRAY or a SIMPLE-ARRAY of whatever elemet types 16:27:16 you could dispatch at run-time 16:27:19 super` [~super_@pool-173-65-48-189.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:13 So its as fast to copy an '(unsigned-byte 8) arary as it is to copy a float one?(explicitly) 16:29:50 Given its all declared both are simple and its declaimed to (speed 3) 16:29:55 You'll have to define the metric. 16:30:52 If you use the implementation's facilities, I expect both to reach comparable fraction of the available bandwidth. 16:30:59 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31:14 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:28 Problem being, i dont want to :P 16:31:44 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:32:33 so, is array copying a bottle-neck for you? 16:33:45 Not really,im just learning anyway 16:34:40 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-hoovqqbefyrwhuzj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:16 REPLACE, type declarations, COMPILE (or a huge macroexpansion), and some type dispatch should be simple, and portably fast. 16:36:07 you can even implement the type dispatch with a hash table (and try the inline cache trick nikodemus recently wrote about) 16:36:08 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#lisp 17:10:53 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:23 Bronsa [~brace@host188-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:13:20 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:14:05 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@66.201.52.88] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:15:17 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:16:07 kdas_ [~kdas@117.201.101.93] has joined #lisp 17:16:18 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.19.252.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:17:02 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@117.201.101.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:17:20 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-beictthirpdkvyuw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:18 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-7-67.btc-net.bg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:19:35 three cheers for nikodemus! 17:19:50 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:38 -!- e-user1 [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-zphgtjitmessfdsw] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:21:36 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 17:22:05 cheers 17:25:03 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:25:25 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.19.252.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 17:25:48 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:25:57 -!- joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:26:22 joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 17:26:36 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffed82.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:28:14 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:29:15 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:31 cheers 17:31:47 -!- silenius [~silenus@p5DDBAEB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: enough work for a day] 17:32:50 -!- bongy [~Enrico@host86-248-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:35:02 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:13 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:02 tcr [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:40:08 trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:23 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:40 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:44:24 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:45:44 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.206] has joined #lisp 17:45:45 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 17:46:00 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:47:10 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host188-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:47:44 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:48:41 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:55 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:49:03 Bronsa [~brace@host162-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:49:42 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.239.51] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:49:58 bongy [~Enrico@host40-251-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:50:45 is there a CL (not necessarily complete CL) that used reference counting? 17:50:50 http://sei.meidokon.net/files/lisp.png <-- LISP: it's big in Japan 17:51:31 p_l|backup: I'm not sure what scheme movitz uses, but I know its GC was pretty simplistic one, perhaps reference counting 17:51:37 frodef should know more 17:51:41 mathrick: there's music group called LISP, iirc, which yes, takes the name from Lisp the language 17:51:58 mathrick: it is big in japan. 17:52:16 p_l|backup: oh? I knew it's the band, but I didn't know it was an explicit reference to McCarthy's LISP 17:52:45 I mean, it's pretty obvious it's a band when it says  :) 17:53:19 mathrick: looks like a drummer 17:53:32 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:40 p_l|backup: managed to upload the VLM yet? 17:53:43 mathrick: I have somewhere a song remade into a cover about Abelson and Sussman and 6.001, where one of the groups involved was named MIPS and the vocalist used a certain MIPS implementation's name as nickname 17:53:53 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.37.103.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:55:09 uploaded yes, but I have to fix something about HTTP hosting 17:55:37 jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has joined #lisp 17:56:32 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has left #lisp 17:57:31 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:58:07 antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:59:25 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:59:49 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:42 brill [~brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:00:51 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffed82.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 18:02:55 p_l|backup: none, I expect. Mutations and cyclic structures aren't that uncommon in idiomatic CL. 18:03:55 *Xach* finds that cl-mssql is much less like postmodern than he initially thought 18:04:12 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:21 is it more like cl-postgres? 18:04:35 at least the name is more similar 18:05:02 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:05:15 does that mean we need a msmodern? 18:06:22 pkhuong: I was thinking more along the lines of a hybrid approach, for example a one-bit reference count to get rid fast of single objects 18:07:32 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 18:07:35 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:07:56 though I'll admit that I was inspired by Dis, which uses both reference counting and concurrent GC 18:07:57 <_8david`> yes, all in favour of a tdsmodern 18:07:59 someone could make a hybrid approach like python has: ref count + periodic cycle cleanup. 18:08:13 foom: someone like IBM's metronome? (: 18:08:23 metronome? 18:08:42 ah, a JVM? 18:08:49 has anyone done any experiments recently on refcounting efficiency? 18:09:15 the standard theory is that it's horrible for performance because of all the mutations 18:09:16 foom: the metronome people, that I know of. 18:09:39 foom: AFAI familiar with the research and practice, refcounting loses big time on multicore systems because of locking 18:09:50 and multicore isn't exactly becoming less common 18:09:59 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 18:09:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 18:09:59 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:10:12 they had to introduce a lot of buffering to get decent performance, especially given that they want to minimise atomic operations. 18:10:26 buffering of refcount updates? 18:10:31 mathrick: if you *lock* to update a refcount, you're just building a strawman. 18:10:42 pkhuong: no, atomic updates have locking in the hardware 18:10:50 foom: yup. Like a sequential store buffer, but it logs both increments and decrements. 18:10:50 pkhuong: right, s/locking/atomicity requirements/ 18:11:06 foom: Dis uses reference counting because consistent slowdown was preferred to pausing the system. 18:11:24 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:25 pkhuong: but CAS is still not multicore-friendly 18:11:33 Where's my concurrent GC for SBCL? :) 18:11:38 mathrick: that's what I just wrote. 18:11:59 (and you can usually get away with an atomic add) 18:12:16 mathrick: on MOESI architectures well done CAS/LOCKADD etc. afaik keeps to sensible cycle count latency 18:12:27 foom: I have half a sketch based on fork and querying the kernel's page map. 18:12:29 pkhuong: I'm not quite sure how buffering cures you of the need to have atomicity and coherence, and I don't have the time to dig into the papers now 18:12:29 mathrick: you usually get worse performance due to other reasons 18:13:02 mathrick: you write to a thread-local buffer instead of directly changing refcounts. 18:13:21 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.206] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:13:29 pkhuong: and how do you sync the buffers between the threads? 18:14:03 but what was the reason to have refcounting in metronome in the first place? One thing I know refcounting is somewhat better at is being predictable for the client code wrt when the cleanup and finalisation will happen 18:14:24 one bit refcount has this nice property that if you scan a young generation and the refcount is still 0 you can be sure it's not used anywhere else 18:14:32 which is also slightly better for inter-runtime sharing if both are refcounting, since you can use toggle references 18:14:52 I don't see how a one bit refcount can possibly work unless you have a lot of special cased primitives 18:14:55 p_l|backup: one-bit refcount usually stores the cout in the pointer. 18:15:05 although that only works for exactly two interoperating runtimes, I don't think anyone's generalised it to N runtimes 18:15:08 pkhuong: it can, but it's not required 18:15:09 mathrick: metronome is for realtime operations. 18:15:21 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host162-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:15:25 pkhuong: ah, right, so predictability 18:15:25 mathrick: weighted reference counting, used in distributed GC systems 18:15:44 Bronsa [~brace@host162-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:15:53 p_l|backup: that's re: what exactly? 18:16:01 syncing and coherence? 18:16:07 mathrick: more than two operating runtimes 18:16:14 *interoperating 18:16:25 foo` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:16:32 mathrick: and you can sync the buffers with a single atomic operation per buffer, or use an epoch-based scheme and wait for each thread to become active and run the right GC routine (which can be useful if you want to include stack walking). 18:16:49 -!- foo` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 18:17:17 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 18:17:22 foom: regarding concurrent GC for SBCL... it's on the list of possible projects for me to officially work in fourth year at uni :) 18:17:28 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-79-127.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:36 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-102-155.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:17:55 though I was thinking of overall changes to SBCL's memory model 18:17:59 -!- confounds [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:19:47 -!- antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:19:47 -!- trebor_d` [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:21:48 speaking of GC, has anyone compared CCL's scheme with SBCLs copy GC? CCL's is rather nice in that it seems to work around the traditional need to have 2x the working set available of RAM for copying 18:23:00 confounds [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:09 antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:54 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@static-195-114-183-51.devs.futuro.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:27:04 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:27:27 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:27:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:28:59 mathrick: Clozure's GC is precise, whereas it's conservative on SBCL 18:29:47 sbcl's is precise except for the pages that are pinned by potential pointers from the stack 18:30:33 "it's precise, except it isn't" 18:30:47 ... 18:31:20 It's an important distinction. An imprecise GC can't move any objects. 18:31:21 mostly precise? 18:31:25 precise within a certain standard deviation? (: 18:31:50 It's a precise GC, but some pages are pinned by conservatism. 18:32:34 right 18:32:43 but if you have a large data tree, it's enough to have just one alive pointer 18:33:08 -!- gko [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:33:08 That has very little to do with the GC algorithms. 18:33:09 like the recent problem with cxml 18:33:11 stassats: I think you and foom are applying different definitions of "precise" 18:33:21 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 18:33:34 while Clozure has no problem collecting it 18:33:53 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:34:14 my definition of precise is "it always can tell whether data is alive or not" 18:34:49 CCL knows which registers etc. are pointers (also in stackframes) which is rather useful 18:35:17 does cxml has a bug-tracker? 18:35:39 ffailla [~ffailla@ool-44c5bc14.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:47 *have 18:36:05 No doubt, that's a useful feature. But I thought we were talking about GC algorithms, and there, there's a big divide between those for a conservative GC and those for a precise GC, and SBCL acts like a precise GC. 18:37:25 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-103.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:38:22 what exactly was the problem with cxml after all? 18:39:23 stassats: isn't CCL also mostly precise on 32-bit x86oids? 18:39:39 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:40:05 ccl is precise on all platforms. it has to be, since the gc is compacting. 18:40:07 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.228] has quit [Quit: be back later] 18:40:18 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.228] has joined #lisp 18:40:55 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 18:40:58 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:41:51 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BD55.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:42:11 -!- Blkt` [~user@93-33-132-65.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:42:18 Yuuhi [benni@p54839D7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:00 rme: but SBCL's GC is copying, no? Wouldn't that also need to be precise? 18:43:27 mathrick: not on gengc platforms 18:43:37 confound_ [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:53 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-101.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:43:54 -!- sy` [~user@cpe-24-162-115-160.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:44:03 -!- ffailla [~ffailla@ool-44c5bc14.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 18:44:21 it does copy and compact on gengc platforms too. 18:44:22 p_l|backup: okay, so then SBCL is keeping a free blocks map and is subject to fragmentation? 18:44:34 but it won't move the pinned pages 18:45:36 mathrick: yes, at least partially - it will try to move around, but it can't reliably determine stack pointers and has to pin quite a lot of object for good cooperation with FFI 18:45:40 how large are the pages? 18:45:52 default is 32k right now 18:46:01 (used to be 4k) 18:46:30 -!- brill [~brill@0x5da22faa.cpe.ge-1-1-0-1104.hrnqu2.customer.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:46:30 -!- confounds [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:32 and one page can contain more than object, surely? 18:46:48 yep 18:46:58 cmm [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has joined #lisp 18:47:02 I can't find the writeup of CCL's strategy now 18:47:30 foom: and pinning is page-granular, right? 18:47:59 anyway, would it be very hard to add pluggable strategies to SBCL and/or port CCL's scheme to it? I'm interested in how they compare against each other 18:48:01 pinning is, I'm not sure offhand if the conservative pointer check is object granular (it could be) 18:48:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:25 mathrick: CCL's scheme would require changes to calling convention afaik 18:48:39 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 18:48:44 and luis's work GC still isn't integrated? 18:48:45 -!- antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:48:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 18:48:47 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:48:51 "work on" 18:48:56 ah, that'd be http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter16.html I think 18:49:10 stassats: what work was that/ 18:49:11 ? 18:49:38 I'm pretty sure SBCL's GC is very non-optimal. 18:49:49 i don't remember the specifics, some incremental improvements 18:49:53 But I don't think the most pressing problem is the conservativeness 18:50:32 actually, my main beef with SBCL's GC was to get rid of the giant mmap block and lack of relocation 18:50:35 brb 18:51:01 If someone wants to do some hard work, allowing software write barriers would be nice. 18:51:24 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:52:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.177] has quit [Quit: Offline] 18:52:33 I suspect the current mprotect / SIGSEGV-handler strategy is slower than even a naive implementation of hitting a table on every write would be. But I could be wrong... 18:52:48 foom: depends on how often it's hit 18:53:28 you can also augment certain operations to replace atomic compare 18:53:32 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:33 *use 18:54:46 heh: "The initial heap image is mapped into this reserved address space and an additional (LISP-HEAP-GC-THRESHOLD) bytes are mapped read-write. GC data structures grow to match the amount of GC-able memory in the initial image plus the gc threshold, and control is transferred to lisp code. Inevitably, that code spoils everything and starts consing" 18:54:46 -!- confound_ [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55:23 VCGC (Dis' algorithm) has as all requirement only CAS and a write barrier 18:55:38 *requirements 18:56:00 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:56:28 though Dis can use a software write barrier 18:57:45 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:58:20 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:59:15 adamvh [~adamvh@130.85.56.84] has joined #lisp 18:59:45 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:00:56 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.191] has joined #lisp 19:01:00 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@130.85.56.84] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:42 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:37 -!- wubo [80f40909@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.244.9.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:10:24 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 19:14:40 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-103.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:17:11 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:19:05 alama [~alama@a79-169-84-216.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:19:11 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-84-216.cpe.netcabo.pt] has left #lisp 19:19:18 alama [~alama@a79-169-84-216.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:20:05 ahh, finally: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.openmcl.devel/4284 19:20:16 this is the post and explanation of whys I was looking for 19:21:58 -!- kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:07 kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has joined #lisp 19:23:06 -!- jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:23:33 jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:40 -!- 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peer] 20:12:01 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 20:13:07 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 20:14:16 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-103.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:14:36 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:45 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:15:16 enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-248-233-98.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:55 BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-42.hypernet.biz.pl] has joined #lisp 20:17:47 sir_emeth [~sir_emeth@178.167.174.122.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 20:17:48 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:17:53 -!- sir_emeth [~sir_emeth@178.167.174.122.threembb.ie] has left #lisp 20:18:19 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:35 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:21:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:22:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-64.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:23:28 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 20:23:42 pattern_ [~pattern@ool-45715287.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:47 -!- pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:23:47 -!- pattern_ is now known as pattern 20:24:31 Harrop sounds like an Apache project. probably something to do with databases and fulltext searching. 20:24:32 key-value store databases, of course. none of that SQL rubbish. 20:25:02 mathrick: you know that Apache also maintains a SQL database project? :) 20:25:12 (written in Java, of course) 20:25:15 yes, but that's not Harrop 20:25:48 p_l|backup: I dunno if you frequent c.l.l, but you won't get it if you don't 20:26:01 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:26:08 mathrick: I usually keep away from c.l.l 20:26:23 -!- BlankVer1e [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:26:32 the main newsgroup I tend to read is the scary devil monastery :) 20:28:05 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:19 -!- wolgo [noige@otaku.freeshell.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:28:37 eh, I read it as scarlet devil mansion at first. That's probably a disease at this point 20:29:37 heh. what about White Devil? :) 20:30:18 nah, have seen whole of half an ep of it, and weren't impressed enough to continue 20:32:18 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:32:33 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.19.252.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:32:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:35:10 heh, it doesn't get really started at that point 20:36:30 p_l|backup: if you really want a viable magical girl show, I do hope you're following madoka 20:36:44 -!- Sprayzor` [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:36:47 to see befriending in progress you usually need few episodes at least, and then there are the episodes that changed the official motto into into "Maximum (Fire)Power!" 20:37:11 mathrick: I am. you know who is writing the script? :) 20:37:17 yeah 20:37:28 *mathrick* has an impression this is getting somewhat offtopic though 20:37:32 hehe 20:37:43 managed to get the VM? 20:38:21 I think so, lemme check 20:39:15 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:40:01 Could not read OVF file 'VLM1.ovf' (VERR_TAR_END_OF_FILE). 20:40:16 oh, but the other one works 20:40:31 hmmm 20:41:12 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:17 right, that one is the torrent file 20:41:40 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:42:11 p_l|backup: 725886731a89254e9feb08f105df35b1 VLM1.ova 20:42:23 that's the md5 of what I have 20:44:13 Hi [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:39 -!- Hi is now known as Guest63936 20:44:44 have you trying launching the one downloaded over HTTP? 20:45:22 that's the one 20:46:28 pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:17 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-199-161.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:48:30 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.191] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:49:19 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:49:40 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-212-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 20:50:04 it's very unpolished, you have to login as lispm, run xinit (not startx) then go to /var/lib/symbolics/snap4/ and run genera as root 20:50:20 -!- milkpost_ is now known as milkpost 20:50:21 the Genera-local.vlod is the dumped image created on it 20:50:22 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:27 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-42.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:52 p_l|backup: it doesn't want to decompress, dude 20:50:57 weird 20:50:58 what's the md5 of your .ova file? 20:51:01 very, very weird 20:51:04 let me check 20:51:51 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host162-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:52:05 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:49 (I got confused by the order of sentences) 20:53:09 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 20:53:48 725886731a89254e9feb08f105df35b1 20:53:56 what version of vbox did you try? 20:54:05 (it was created with 4.0 20:54:12 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:18 p_l|backup: 4.0 20:54:21 -!- pers [~user@214.sub-75-193-10.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 20:54:27 o_O? 20:54:30 4.0.2 to be precise 20:54:31 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:54:59 ooooh, I know 20:55:00 tar 20:55:10 I can't rename it from VLM.ova 20:55:15 so VLM1.ova makes it go bonkers 20:55:18 awesome 20:55:44 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:56:29 unix formats are so stupid sometimes 20:56:51 mathrick: I think it's more like "OVA spec is bonkers" 20:56:54 Good morning everyone! 20:57:02 cause it obviously used archive filename for manifest filename inside 20:57:10 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:10 hello beach, my favourite writer of non-CLIM spec :) 20:57:27 p_l|backup: that's because it's a .tgz internally 20:57:28 Hey mathrick. Thanks! How are you today? 20:57:52 beach: alright, trying hard to stay approximately not sick before my flight tomorrow 20:57:59 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:06 mathrick: Where are you going? 20:58:13 mathrick: that's not it 20:58:36 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7540eb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:59 beach: back to DK (from PL), although that's short term itself, since I have to leave my dorm and haven't found a new place yet, so I expect I'll be coming back to PL on the 15th to wait until I do get a new apartment 20:59:02 mathrick: the spec made it so that the OVF descripption file inside has the same name as enclosing archive, which breaks if someone renames the archive, irrespective of archive format 20:59:15 Ragnaroek [5b0c590a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.89.10] has joined #lisp 20:59:25 p_l|backup: ah. Well, that's idiotic then 20:59:39 yeah 20:59:41 why wouldn't you call it a fixed name like MANIFEST is beyond me 21:00:38 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:00:53 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:00:56 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:01:11 hey, the manifest is a XML file which has rather obvious inspiration in SOAP... :P 21:01:30 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-042-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:02:06 -!- pattern [~pattern@ool-45715287.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:02:06 pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has joined #lisp 21:02:56 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:37 p_l|backup: it takes approximately metric forever to start. Seemingly hung on starting the NIS server 21:03:45 Jasko [~tjasko@174.59.223.208] has joined #lisp 21:04:16 mathrick: it will look seemingly hung. You can drop the NIS if you want, since it's snapshot from my VM where the NIS work isn't finished yet 21:04:30 (I wanted to use Genera's NIS/YP support) 21:04:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:05:05 what's the pass for lispm? 21:05:13 okay, lispm :) 21:06:06 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:06:43 p_l|backup: "unable to lookup ubuntu via gethostbyname()" 21:07:11 ... don't use sudo 21:07:15 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:07:21 huh, why not? 21:07:53 how am I supposed to rootify myself then? 21:07:57 su 21:08:05 and the pass? 21:08:09 "root" 21:08:13 (without quotes) 21:08:31 I know :) 21:08:49 p_l|backup: okay, man, my VM was way more polished before I broke it 21:09:28 mathrick: let me guess, you were the one who installed the base system, right? :) 21:09:55 what do you mean? 21:10:02 I grabbed the VMDK from canonical then did few modifications and probably forgot some places 21:10:06 ah 21:10:20 then yes 21:10:28 Had I installed it from scratch, it wouldn't have certain issues 21:10:59 but I had photos to edit :) 21:12:00 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:12:32 jesusito [~user@220.pool85-49-234.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:12:35 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.228] has joined #lisp 21:12:43 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.228] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:57 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.191] has joined #lisp 21:14:59 langur [~langur@c-24-91-98-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:20 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:22 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffed82.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:17:24 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839D7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:17:38 Is the lisperati.com cartoon about the war with Haskell still available online? It seems it was taken down. 21:18:00 -!- Ragnaroek [5b0c590a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.89.10] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:18:28 Something like "follow these simple rules...you will be happy" was the mantra 21:19:06 it's there, might be hard to find where exactly though 21:19:33 mathrick: so, did it run? 21:20:05 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:20:15 p_l|backup: no, it complains about not being able to find an ethernet iface to attach to 21:21:20 o_O 21:21:39 ah, now I remember 21:21:46 as root, dhclient eth1 21:21:46 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 21:21:58 I forgot to enable network autostart 21:22:57 (I was more interested in playing with Genera ^^;) 21:23:40 bzzbzz_ [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:25:32 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:26:04 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:27:07 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-199-161.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:31:28 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:31:38 scode_ [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 21:31:49 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:11 -!- langur [~langur@c-24-91-98-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:34:24 dkasak [~dkasak@78-1-178-102.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 21:34:41 tvaalen_ [~r@67.217.170.35] has joined #lisp 21:34:42 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 21:35:53 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:36:43 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:36:50 ApeShot [~user@cpe-075-189-204-195.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:04 So is there a more purely functional alternative to CLOS out there? 21:37:30 The nearest thing I can find is some functional data structures which are in early development as a google summer of code project 21:37:37 CLOS is a pretty good purely functional alternative to CLOS. 21:37:38 Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-32-8-91.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:44 I dunno 21:37:46 I prefer CLOS 21:37:57 Seems like clos objects are not efficient to modify without mutation 21:38:22 And the default clos functions do not 'modify' them in this way 21:38:27 trigen` [~MSX@ec2-46-51-179-218.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:11 ApeShot: you can use CLOS using classes or mutation 21:39:30 ApeShot: What is the functional data structure library, out of curiosity? 21:39:31 ApeShot: fare-utils uses CLOS in a fun way to implement various persistent data structures. 21:39:33 I suppose one could change the MOP to handle this 21:39:33 Or whatever 21:39:33 But that is over my head 21:39:33 sykopomp: please elaborate 21:39:33 sykopomp: what I want is a system where there are no destructive updates to objects. Slot modification always returns a new object similar to the input except with a new slot value. 21:39:35 that is, without using a single object's slot 21:40:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.191] has quit [Quit: Offline] 21:40:09 sellout: let me look it up again 21:40:37 clos is way more than just classes with slots (it's also way more than generic functions, but who's counting) 21:40:57 *hargettp* <3 CLOS 21:41:03 sellout: http://common-lisp.net/project/funds/ 21:41:23 antifuchs: I know a fair amount about CLOS and I understand its a powerful facility 21:41:30 antifuchs: I am just curious if other options exist 21:42:06 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:42:28 ApeShot: there's also fset 21:42:39 mathrick: fset modifies in place 21:42:43 mathrick: opposite of what I want 21:42:47 ...no? 21:42:55 mathrick: unless I misunderstand what you are suggesting. 21:43:04 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-21.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:12 http://www.cliki.net/FSet 21:43:14 ApeShot: i can't really help you, but i was wondering if you'd use setf or (set- ...) to change slot values? because setf requires that the new-value be returned (not that much of a thing, until you face some weird setf expansion) 21:43:36 pmd: I'd expect that an alternative would provide its own update functions. 21:43:36 ApeShot: anyway, why do you want functional objects? 21:43:49 mathrick: well, mostly because I strongly prefer the functional style 21:44:03 mathrick: when possible, I like to be able ignore the memory under the data altogether. 21:44:12 then CL might not be for you, since it strongly prefers using whatever is best for the job 21:44:31 mathrick: I think that is a rather naive way of thinking about it 21:44:37 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:44:41 -!- bohanlon [~bohanlon@66.170.231.44] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:44:41 mathrick: after all, what is best for the job depends on who is working 21:45:00 you could probably hack a MOP to do it, but I dunno if you wouldn't run into some strange corner cases 21:45:08 mathrick: the best tool is the one which suits the job AND the programmer 21:45:17 ApeShot: i think that is feasible with mop, such as having something similar to the :writer slot arg, but called :setter 21:45:17 mathrick: might be a neat way of getting into the MOP 21:45:17 then use FSet 21:45:17 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 21:45:20 -!- m1ngus [~Adium@tunnel-32-148.vpn.uib.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:45:41 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:45:41 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has left #lisp 21:45:46 m1ngus [~nmajo@mi061032.klientdrift.uib.no] has joined #lisp 21:45:47 lorenz_ [~moesenle@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:49 mathrick: I'm not particularly married to fset, which is an interesting and useful feature, but also somewhat baroque. 21:45:50 ApeShot: yes, but please be aware that MOP _isn't_ trivial. It's well-designed, but not trivial 21:45:55 or fare-utils. 21:46:13 ApeShot: then the setter is like writer, but returns a copy of the object 21:46:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-21.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:46:44 pmd: Obviously I could whip up something that just copied before each set, but this would be pretty inefficient 21:46:57 __bongy__ [~Enrico@host40-251-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:47:13 pmd: modern persistent data structures are much better at this kind of thing. I've been meaning to really understand skip lists, so maybe I will whip something up 21:47:21 ApeShot: why? isn't exactly that what you want? or do you want the copied object to have copy-on-write slots? 21:47:31 pmd: I think skip lists underly clojure's array and map types, sometimes 21:47:53 pmd: consider the analogy to the list 21:48:09 pmd: cons is a fast operation which returns a "new list" which happens to reuse parts of the old list 21:48:09 confounds [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:45 pmd: if you don't go fucking around with memory, consing and caring and cdring don't clobber any data in structures which might point to parts of your list 21:48:59 clog_ [nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 21:49:10 pmd: played with clojure any? 21:49:37 pmd: what I like about clojure (not an expert disclaimer) is that you can basically program in that clear style that lists allow with all your major data structures 21:50:04 pmd: and not worry about strange behavior because, for instance, your hash tables are not functional 21:50:55 pmd: like I am always "folding" over lists of various kinds, consing up stuff into them 21:51:21 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:21 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:22 -!- koning_r1bot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:22 -!- whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-157-162.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:22 -!- joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:22 -!- abend [~user@alpha.muted.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:22 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-116-48.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:22 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:23 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-arsszdzbindagkri] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:23 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-39-140.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit 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andreer [andreer@flode.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:31 -!- Fade [~fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:31 -!- tic [~tic@c83-249-193-119.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:32 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:32 -!- Zahl [~kenneth@lnx101.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:32 -!- pok_ [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:32 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:33 pmd: I find it disconcerting to fold when the accumulator is a hash table that isn't persistent, because you aren't accumulating anything, you are just passing around a pointer. 21:51:35 akkartik_ [~akkartik@akkartik.name] has joined #lisp 21:51:40 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-199-161.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:40 -!- jesusito [~user@220.pool85-49-234.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:40 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] 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21:51:52 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:53 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:53 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.171] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:53 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:54 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:54 -!- algorist [~quassel@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:54 -!- akkartik [~akkartik@akkartik.name] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:54 -!- rien|zzz [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:54 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:54 -!- spiaggia` [~user@113.161.72.9] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:54 -!- clog [nef@bespin.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:51:54 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.147.92] has quit [*.net *.split] 21:52:19 pmd: if you forget to copy the table before passing it someplace, all sorts of weird bugs can crop up. 21:52:27 pmd: similarly with standard clos object instances. 21:52:52 csamuelson [~csamuelso@ec2-50-17-240-121.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:08 pmd: one might argue that they don't sufficiently hide the pointer under the hood, and so you can't infer anything about them by looking at a subset of your source code. 21:54:37 kloeri_ [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 m1ngus [~nmajo@mi061032.klientdrift.uib.no] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 koning_r1bot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 parcs 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cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 pok_ [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 Zahl [~kenneth@lnx101.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 21:54:37 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 21:54:50 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-116-48.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:29 don't you love netsplit? 21:55:44 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:06 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:56:09 why does that happen ? 21:56:10 ApeShot: excuse me, i'm reading your messages in clozure.com's log 21:56:26 is that a automation for full network loads ? 21:56:37 pmd: Your silence made me wonder if I wasn't raving like a crazy person. 21:56:41 homie: irc service is distributed (at least they usually are) 21:56:41 pmd: which i may have been 21:56:44 ok 21:56:59 ApeShot: it seems the logger bot got them (or most of them) 21:57:20 pmd: I'm not a zealot or anything, seriously. I am just curious what is out there. 21:57:21 but does it happen that nickserv is down too ? 21:57:43 -!- m1ngus [~nmajo@mi061032.klientdrift.uib.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:58:22 DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:56 #debian is full, #C and #asm can't let me in cause nickserv identification failed 21:58:58 hmmmmm 21:59:07 weird 21:59:21 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 22:00:35 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A41F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:37 ApeShot: yes, however objects were made with identity in mind, so hiding the pointer is not a choice (i guess). i understand now the power of functional objects, and now they are becoming each time more "normal" due to the parallel computing trend (or need) 22:01:36 ApeShot: i cannot really help you here other than point you to MOP and cons an object's slots yourself... sorry, CL is 50 years old (for what is good and bad about that) 22:02:57 homie: freenode.org's site had technical details and iirc the source code or a pointer to the repository of their server software 22:03:06 pmd: I am sure something great could be built on it 22:03:30 pmd: all you really need to do is write up a functional table and replace the CLOS representation with that using the MOP 22:03:35 pmd: I can't imagine that is impossible 22:03:53 pmd: then add some extra functions to handle "update" on slots 22:04:05 pmd: methods, rather 22:05:27 ApeShot: what about just writing a class with a single slot that points to an underlying persistent data structure, and have your protocol return a new instance of that class (which would be fairly small), that points to each new branch of the data structure's tree? 22:05:56 sykopomp: sounds like a reasonable plan 22:06:05 I mean, it's a bit of setup on your code, but you don't necessarily need the MOP here. 22:06:23 sykopomp: I understand the MOP is not completely portable anyway 22:06:26 sykopomp: which is too bad 22:06:35 the MOP is mostly portable. See closer-mop. 22:06:47 sykopomp:ApeShot: doesn't manardb do something like what you just described? (as a whole it may solve a different problem, but that last bit sounded like how it does it) 22:07:35 ApeShot: you could just as easily achieve this through macros, afaict, if you really want a more general solution. 22:07:45 hargettp: I ran across it googling, but assumed it was focused on providing a persistent backend in a database rather than persistent data structures in the sense of structures which have efficient functional "update" 22:07:49 _danb_ [~user@203.38.189.126] has joined #lisp 22:08:10 sykopomp: well, the efficiency of the back end is the real issue here 22:08:18 btw, is there something that defines methods that belong to classes? i'm thinking of something in the line of (.method instance args...) expand to (funcall (method (class-of instance) instance args...) 22:08:22 sykopomp: It would be nice to have a solution which minimized consing 22:08:29 ApeShot: yes, it does...but it makes heavy use of CLOS+MOP, so there may be some guidance to how you might apply the same techniques to your domain...perhaps 22:08:38 ApeShot: you know what minimizes consing? side-effecting data structures. 22:08:54 pmd: I've seen this done manually 22:09:04 but in all seriousness: A single-slot instance isn't much to cons, which is what I'm suggesting. 22:09:24 sykopomp: sykopomp it is a reasonable idea 22:09:29 for even greater minimalism, you can implement this on top of a single-slot struct. If only for the sake of dispatching on its type. 22:09:30 sykopomp: or maybe I will just track down my memory bug 22:09:34 pmd: err, actually. scratch that. I don't follow. 22:09:48 thought I did, but how would the method arglist look like? 22:09:54 if you want persistence and lower consing, there's baker's shallow binding trick. 22:09:58 so each update ends up being a single struct-cons + consing up the next node of your preferred underlying data structure. 22:10:54 antifuchs: anything actually 22:11:11 that's not helping make what you're asking any clearer. 22:11:36 (defmethod do-something ((foo some-class))) ; is a method that dispatches on the class of its first argument. 22:11:43 -!- felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:11:46 that seems to be what you're asking for. or am I missing something? 22:11:53 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-103.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:12:14 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 smithzv [~smithzv@c-71-237-75-86.hsd1.co.comcast.net] 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22:12:14 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 yahooooo [~yahooooo@ec2-184-72-7-126.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 Taggnostr3 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 algorist [~quassel@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 rien|zzz [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 spiaggia` [~user@113.161.72.9] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.147.92] has joined #lisp 22:12:17 Nodio [nodio@187.59.123.195] has joined #lisp 22:12:17 -!- Nodio [nodio@187.59.123.195] has quit [Client Quit] 22:12:19 antifuchs: i played around implementing the macro-character #\. that expands to #'(lambda (instance &rest args) (apply (method (class-of instance) instance args))) 22:12:57 antifuchs: what i *don't* want is a generic function 22:13:03 antifuchs: he wants something like java's "class" methods 22:13:07 ah 22:13:10 yeah 22:13:13 why? 22:13:18 srcerer_ [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:30 I used to think I wanted something like that too 22:13:33 well. um. I am not sure I see how they differ from defuns. 22:14:04 slyrus: i'm not sure if it's a good idea yet, but basically to implement objects that are supposed to play nicely with java, .net, javascript, etc., so it's not a general tool 22:14:46 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:14:47 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:14:53 hm, transliteration interop is one of the few use cases I can think of that make sense (: 22:15:21 -!- cnl [~cnl@78.31.74.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:15:22 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-248-233-98.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:15:22 -!- jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:15:22 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:15:22 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:15:22 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:15:22 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:15:22 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:15:22 antifuchs: (defgeneric method (arg)) (defmethod ((self my-first-class-ever)) ...), then in another file, (defmethod ((self my-second-class-ever) where-i-need-furter-args) ...), this will error 22:15:25 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-29.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:36 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:47 jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has joined #lisp 22:16:01 ok, this is not really a good example. the good example is really interop (and probably interop alone) 22:16:04 yeah. argument lists must match 22:16:05 jamief` [~user@158.223.51.80] has joined #lisp 22:16:07 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:18 d2biG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 22:16:21 Spitfire__ [~Spitfire@cpc17-aztw23-2-0-cust59.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:23 -!- confounds [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:34 johs_ [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 22:16:36 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:43 if you want to dispatch on the first arg only, it's probably best to use &rest for the remaining args 22:16:44 confounds [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:47 or to use different method names 22:16:49 not sure 22:16:49 antifuchs: right. so i'd like to have `method' be class specific, so that for class1 it would require 1 arg and for class2 it would require 2 22:16:55 mornfall_ [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 22:17:37 might be less grating to use different method names, though (: 22:17:58 <[df]> I want to set the values of two places (specifically clos slots) to the values returns by a function, is there a shorthand way to do that (ie shorter than multiple-value-bind and setf)? 22:18:04 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:12 antifuchs: i bear with you, but the "advantage" of having methods in classes would also be reflection (or an attempt at it) 22:18:17 [df]: check out metabang bind 22:18:24 [df]: metabang bind is the hotness 22:18:30 -!- confounds [~confounds@CPE0013f7f0bd88-CM0013f7f0bd84.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:33 -!- bhattara is now known as 5EXAB9FY2 22:18:39 bhattara [~bhattara@infao6901.rg1.mpi-sb.mpg.de] has joined #lisp 22:18:48 [df]: although now I read your question more carefully, it might not be useful. 22:18:49 you can use (values) in setf 22:19:01 [df]: what's wrong with (setf (values (slot1 o) (slot2 o)) (f ...))? 22:19:09 pmd: not entirely convinced... if you define a convenience macro for method defns, you can just as well enter that method in some introspection table somewhre 22:19:27 seeing as you're already reinventing parts of clos, I predict this will be inevitable anyway : 22:19:54 <[df]> foom, pmd: ah, I think that's what I was missing, thanks 22:20:09 antifuchs: true, but with &rest args you lose information, and you have to resort to dbind to check for given arglist 22:20:26 emoon [~emoon@212-107-139-12.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 22:20:27 -!- Atomsk is now known as ace4016 22:20:29 antifuchs: :) i don't want to reinvent clos, just querying if something in this line of thought exists 22:20:33 yeah, so name the methods according to the class you want them to "belong" to. 22:20:47 erm, generic functions 22:20:59 egn_ [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:23 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:21:51 keyvan1 [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:39 antifuchs: i wouldn't like 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22:35:54 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.201] has joined #lisp 22:35:59 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 22:35:59 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.250.41] has joined #lisp 22:35:59 Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 22:35:59 ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:59 84XAAAAZE [~user@74-143-13-202.static.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:02 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 22:36:08 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.250.41] has quit [Client Quit] 22:36:08 larva [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:09 RaceCondition_ [~erik@82.131.19.252.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 22:36:18 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:36:24 antifuchs: my goal is most definitely to have syntatic sugar for now, but it would be cool to extend and make it work in reverse: call external methods on external objets by name, i.e. (.method self args...) would be similar to (jcall "method" self args...) in abcl 22:36:27 gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:37 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 22:36:39 jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:40 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-166-177.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:36:59 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:37:00 antifuchs: you may call it clojure-envy :) although i haven't even tried to use clojure 22:37:03 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 22:37:18 -!- pattern is now known as 45PABT3K9 22:37:56 -!- guther_ [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/session] has quit [Changing host] 22:37:56 guther_ [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-wiqzkfyqcptbhpsu] has joined #lisp 22:37:59 -!- reb` [~user@nat/google/session] has quit [Changing host] 22:37:59 reb` [~user@nat/google/x-wqxoqhsulzuzlcie] has joined #lisp 22:38:00 koning_robot 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rot and die] 23:39:34 yawniek [~yannick@84-72-19-136.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:42:28 -!- cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:42:29 -!- jesusito [~user@220.pool85-49-234.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 23:43:10 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.183.197] has joined #lisp 23:43:13 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 23:43:51 bgs100 [~ian@h186.170.17.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:52 -!- bgs100 [~ian@h186.170.17.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:43:53 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:45:26 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 23:46:53 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:33 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 23:47:35 -!- oconnore1 is now known as oconnore 23:49:16 anyone having trouble quickloading cxml-stp? 23:50:00 <84XAAAAZE> zfx: Are you getting symbol-conflicts? 23:50:21 no, it's just hanging during load. 23:50:43 ;;; Checking for wide character support.... WARNING: Lisp implementation doesn't use UTF-16, but accepts surrogate code points. yes, using code points. 23:50:46 ....... 23:50:47 and then nothing 23:50:52 r1nu_ [~0x80@ppp-94-67-135-16.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:51:15 I'm on SBCL 1.0.45, if that helps, and a newb, which probably doesn't help. :) 23:51:36 -!- r1nu_ [~0x80@ppp-94-67-135-16.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 23:51:49 <84XAAAAZE> maybe try loading with :verbose t [and/or] :explain t ??? 23:51:55 -!- 84XAAAAZE [~user@74-143-13-202.static.insightbb.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:52:14 will do. 23:52:21 and goodbye... 23:52:28 stay :) 23:52:31 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 23:52:44 I was referring to 84X quitting. :) 23:52:45 r1nu_ [~0x80@ppp-94-67-135-16.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:53:00 -!- r1nu- [~0x80@unaffiliated/r1nu-] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:53:06 -!- r1nu_ is now known as r1nu- 23:53:14 -!- r1nu- [~0x80@ppp-94-67-135-16.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Changing host] 23:53:14 r1nu- [~0x80@unaffiliated/r1nu-] has joined #lisp 23:55:38 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:08 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:56:31 azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 23:56:36 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:56:37 hmm, well, nothing interesting being output there, apart from the usual STYLE-WARNINGs talking about implicitly creating generic functions. then it simply hangs again. 23:57:04 I think I've probably wedged my quicklisp installation somehow. 23:58:06 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:28 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:59:41 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp