00:04:24 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:05:29 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:05 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:16 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-206-118.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:06:29 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 00:08:56 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-236-229.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:29 pnq [~nick@AC811902.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:20 Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.244.143] has joined #lisp 00:21:44 -!- ad__ [~chatzilla@178-27-16-38-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 00:22:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:23:29 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:23:34 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 00:27:27 -!- sonnym1 [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:31:59 nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:28 sonnym [~sonny@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:54 christoph [~user@oteiza.siccegge.de] has joined #lisp 00:36:18 Anyone here know about Waltz filtering? 00:36:28 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:33 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 00:37:11 anyone know why the option to build against system libatomic-ops was removed from ecl? (it is removed as far as I can tell from reading src/configure) 00:38:38 gigamonkey: Read about it a long time ago when I was still into that. 00:39:15 Reading about it now. But not really grokking it. 00:39:22 that == AI 00:39:24 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:39:38 Yeah. I'm trying to figure out how to apply Knuth's Dancing Links algorithm to it. 00:39:48 But I don't really understand what it is yet so that's hard. 00:40:47 -!- Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 00:41:05 Hmm, yeah. As I recall, it was a way of constraining the possibilities for edges in 2D images according to what their possible orientations might be in 3D, or something like that. 00:41:09 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:42:25 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:43:36 gigamonkey: Any intro AI book should tell you more. As I recall it was trivial stuff. I must have read about it in the "Handbook of Artificial Intelligence" or possibly in one of Winston's books. 00:44:57 Hmmm. I'll go check Norvig's book. 00:45:51 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:21 Yeah, separated from the machine vision stuff it sounds like maybe just plain old constraint propagation. 00:50:35 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:06 beach: I hear that Dijkstra was rather negative about AI. What do you think his position would have been, if confronted to eg. speach recognition? 00:54:06 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-15-187-141.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:54:43 Disappointed, unless you've got a proof to go with that system! 00:54:43 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:03 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:55:09 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:55:37 I assume. How do you "prove" speach recognition? Even stronger, since his methodology was to prove the program before or while writing it? 00:56:42 Well, you don't 00:57:02 I like a lot what beach said about his "methodology" few days ago 00:57:44 s/his/Dijkstra's/ 00:58:41 Yes, he made nice contributions. But there's more to programming than what Dijkstra worked on. 00:58:49 I prefer Knuth's idea that a program should a literary work as well... 00:58:50 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 00:58:50 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 00:58:50 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 00:59:02 pjb: because he was mathematician, not a programmer 00:59:12 *gigamonkey* wonders how big a market there would be for a biography of Knuth. 00:59:15 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:45 His argument is that it's the same. I kind of agree. Programming is kind of a conjugate of mathematics. 01:00:10 gigamonkey: ... if I could ensure that I have the money to spend on it, I'd pay you *now*, as an extreme pre-order 01:00:36 I don't know... how many other biographies of professors have you seen? 01:00:54 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 01:00:54 gigamonkey: +1 / I already have TAOCP. Perhaps you could write a multi-biography: describing the lifes and works of several famous CS people. 01:00:59 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:01:05 gigamonkey: There is a pretty long (several hour long?) interview with him on web of stories, more like biography, was quite an interesting watch 01:01:16 Coders at Work 2.0 ? 01:01:17 housel: I can think of biographies of Feynmann and von Neumann 01:01:49 I get a connection closed at byte 0 when trying to connect to a hunchentoot application. I can see the request is coming in. Any ideas on possible causes? 01:01:56 If you can mesh in history of their works and thoughts too. 01:02:09 housel: you could make an argument that Knuth is maybe up there with guys like that. 01:02:15 it happens as well when I try to wget a page from the machine on which hunchentoot is running 01:02:31 madnificent: proxy problem? 01:03:02 emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:43 pjb: hunchentoot serves the pages directly. It could be a configuration issue somehow though, it happened after rebooting a machine that was running for 20 months or so. 01:03:45 gigamonkey: here it is http://www.webofstories.com/play/17060 01:04:03 Does anyone happen to know how to distinguish between windows i should manage and windows i shouldn't (in X)? A lot of programs make a lot of windows with override-redirect on that aren't really supposed to be managed, window managers seem to get it right, but i haven't been able to figure out how 01:04:27 but nor the hunchentoot instance, nor the code is was running, nor sbcl, has been updated since it last ran. 01:04:30 udzinari: thanks. 01:04:59 pjb: any other guesses? 01:05:53 gigamonkey: yw 01:06:40 madnificent: there may be an error in the program that is caught and ignored. 01:07:03 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 01:07:13 Try to disable toplevel error handling, or add a handle-bind (not handle-case) to trace the errors. 01:07:24 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:07:48 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:51 Perhaps you got a new version of some library or even of the kernel? 01:07:59 gigamonkey: as a purveyor of things rare and scarce including ephemera, paper, books etc. I am quite sure that where you are given first hand access to primary sources wrt the history of computer science these should most certainly be insured as priceless museum grade collectors items. IOW, were you to write a book on Knuth and able to obtain previoulsy undisclosed material it is likely that your offspring would become wealthy from 01:07:59 their sale at auction :) 01:08:46 Hey, I already have a postcard from him! Can I retire? 01:08:47 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:08:51 :-) 01:08:59 e.g http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5084296 01:09:00 pjb: a new library of something is what I suspect, yes... 01:09:18 pjb: how do you disable the toplevel error handling for hunchentoot? 01:09:26 I'd read the doc. 01:09:37 wise, I was hoping you just knew :) but thanks! 01:09:42 or grep for handler-case. 01:09:49 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:45 Or this even: http://www.manhattanrarebooks-science.com/church_post_turing.htm 01:12:47 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:12:57 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has left #lisp 01:13:15 -!- Jini [~pidgin@109.225.24.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:23 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:13:26 mon_key: However, I'm not sure biographers typically get away with a lot of loot. 01:14:04 autobiographers, now that's another story 01:14:26 GWB's "I accidentally the whole country" probably made him a nice chunk of change 01:15:14 slyrus: mon_key was suggesting that I'd somehow end up in posession of rare first editions or unpublished notes that might be sold at auction. 01:15:56 gigamonkey: No. likely they do albeit _quietly_, and at arms length. 01:16:19 slyrus: and made it a bad idea for him to visit ~142 countries 01:16:28 pjb: I think Dijkstra would have avoided such imprecise domains if at all possible. 01:18:15 QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has joined #lisp 01:19:56 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 01:21:45 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:23:54 vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.58.114.88.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:23:56 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:49 -!- Mococa [~Mococa@186.214.244.143] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 01:26:39 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:26:54 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.178.99] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:27:41 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:28:24 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:29:01 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:43 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.241.116.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:33:09 ikki [~ikki@189.247.81.14] has joined #lisp 01:34:34 -!- lambda-avenger [~roman@adsl-99-20-129-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 01:35:17 QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has joined #lisp 01:35:18 ericklc [~ikki@189.139.219.226] has joined #lisp 01:36:24 I imagine one could make a quick buck pawning contemporary punchcards, tapes, written correspondence, notes, whiteboard notes, annotated galleys, pre-publication drafts with corrections, etc. related to any of following: Dijkstra's shortest path, Knuth-Morris-Pratt, Hoare's quicksort, Boyer-Moore, Prim's spanning-trees, Williams' heap-sort, Hirschberg's longest common subseq, Rivest's linear-time/RSA stuff -- likely for all of these 01:36:25 there is still much stuff floating around outside the museums/institutions/auction houses. 01:38:19 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.81.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:43:06 beach: he certainly would have, indeed. He didn't like anthropomorphizing computers... 01:44:21 I recall someone once claiming that Dijkstra was not even much for programming, considering a proven "code" to be enough 01:44:26 dkasak [~dkasak@78-1-185-134.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 01:45:41 -!- dkasak_ [~dkasak@93.138.146.93] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:45:41 -!- emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:49:24 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:50:41 slyrus: you want (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) 1). (simple-array foo *) means the rank is unknown. 01:56:40 p_l|backup: Here's what Knuth had to say about Dijkstra: "In the end his programs were even more literate than mine in the sense that they didnt even go into the machine. They were *only* literate." 01:59:56 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:00:07 pjb: this was silly! The directory to which hunchentoot ought to write its log files wasn't existant, hence it decided not to output anything whatsoever :) Could be solved in the latest release. 02:00:55 I have two functions, say F and G where the domain is the nonnegative integers, and the range is the nonnegative rationals. Each function is continuous and can be represented finitely with a small number of line segments, the last of which is infinitely long. I want to compute H(x) = min(F(x1), G(x2)) where x1+x2=x. Any hints? 02:01:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:02:31 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:03:01 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:03:29 gigamonkey: heh 02:04:23 gigamonkey: dijkstra, however, would have never written a book that decided that assembly was a better language to teach programming ;-) 02:05:04 <|3b|> beach: arbitrary x1,x2 that sum to x? 02:05:12 beach: continuity on integers is "irrelevant"... 02:05:35 pkhuong: where? 02:05:45 pjb: Right. 02:06:07 |3b|: Yes, min_{x1,x2}. 02:06:14 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:42 beach: if your function is given over intervals, you may split the intervals given for F by the intervals given for G and give H by those intervals. If that's what you're asking. 02:06:54 <|3b|> beach: maybe i mean are the inputs x or x1,x2 02:07:04 *|3b|* is confused by that constraint 02:07:19 pjb: and thanks for the support 02:07:20 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:12 <|3b|> beach: actually, maybe i see now 02:08:21 Oh, wait, I said something wrong. 02:08:27 Otherwise I don't see another way than enumerating all the x1,x2. 02:09:04 compute H(x) = min_{x1,x2} max(F(x1), G(x2)) 02:10:07 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:10:15 jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:19 is that a product? 02:10:20 pjb: I can definitely enumerate all x1 and x2, but since I can represent F and G sparsely by intervals, there should be a better way. 02:10:35 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 02:11:02 slyrus: your opticl post on sbcl-help. 02:11:07 compute H(x) which is the smallest possible value of max(F(x1), G(x2)) over all possible combinations x1 and x2 such that x1+x2= x. 02:11:47 beach: well, the difficulty is that you want the min or max of F(x1) and G(x2) with x=x1+x2, so the intervals you want are not always the same. Eventually, I'm afraid you will have to compute the mins and maxs for N². 02:12:00 pkhuong: oh, I see... thanks. 02:12:35 pjb: There might be such cases in effect. I am hoping that most of them won't be. 02:13:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:13:38 ISTM there's no way around enumerating all the intersections of intervals from F and G. 02:14:24 for each such interval, we're left with the min of 2 linear functions, which you can solve with O(1) geometry. 02:15:10 pkhuong: Enumerating "all the intersections of intervals" would be fine, but I don't see how to do that. 02:15:24 -!- mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:15:31 For a given F and G, you may be able to reduce the problem to a specific symbolic problem, where you may deduce some specific things about H, but each case will be different and need different deductions. 02:15:39 beach: are we talking about very large numbers, or slow-to-run functions that you want not to search the entire range of x1/x2? 02:16:58 Phoodus: I definitely do not want to search the entire range, because it is typically infinite. But if I can limit myself to the points of the range that are defined for end-points of the line segments, that would be fine. 02:17:02 beach: I'm assuming you have an explicit representation of F and G. Each line segment has an end, and sort the set of line segment ends for F and G. 02:17:19 pkhuong: Yes. 02:17:28 oh, so x1 and x2 aren't bound to the positive integers. 02:17:34 merge both sorted sets and you're done. 02:17:40 Phoodus: They are. 02:17:40 <|3b|> beach: x1/x2 are bounded by 0 and x, aren't they? 02:17:54 then x1 = 1..x-1, x2 = x-1 .. 1 02:18:04 <|3b|> x1,x2 rather, not division... 02:18:19 pkhuong: I'm not sure that makes a difference as I think the with-array-data is doing it's own declaration. Removing the declaration doesn't make it any worse (nor does fixing it make it any better :) ) 02:18:36 |3b|: Yes. 02:18:56 *Phoodus* takes "positive" as 1 and greater 02:19:24 <|3b|> well, open interval then :) 02:19:29 Phoodus: Sorry, nonnegative. 02:19:46 pkhuong: I don't see that, but if you are right, that's great. 02:20:03 pkhuong: Did you see that x=x1+x2? 02:20:19 then you have exactly x combinations of x1,x2 to worry about, right? 02:20:21 beach: yes. 02:20:23 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx50-2-142177100214.ppp-dynamic.dial.ns.bellaliant.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:30 beach: given the segment, you can express them as inequations, and the definition of H will give you a system of inequation to solve. 02:20:36 for each x. 02:21:08 Phoodus: For each value of x, yes. And that becomes quadratic. 02:21:11 you want to work on H = max(F(x1), G(x-x1)) 02:21:25 ah, ok 02:21:32 oh, x isn't given either. 02:21:35 so you can solve these systems of inequations symbolicaly, and if you are lucky this will be less work than enumerating. 02:21:39 pkhuong: Oh, right, that makes sense. 02:22:31 pkhuong: Right, I want to compute H for each value of x. 02:22:48 pjb: Interesting approach. 02:23:23 so really, it's H(x,x1) = max(F(x1), G(x-x1)) 02:23:49 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:24:06 erm, H(x,x1) = max(F(x1), G(x-x1)) 02:24:28 Phoodus: No, H(x) = min_{x1} max(F(x1), G(x-x1)) 02:24:37 beach: so, you want min_{x1,x2} max(F(x1), G(x2)) ?! 02:24:45 :-) 02:24:45 pkhuong: Yes. 02:24:48 ok 02:25:20 Dijkstra didn't like indices either. 02:25:22 just set x1 = argmin F(x), x2 = argmin G(x)... 02:25:28 infix notation to communicate ideas? on #lisp? now I've seen everything. 02:25:40 chopwood: more like pidgin latex. 02:27:34 right right, avian prophylactics, of course 02:27:37 pkhuong: That gives me one value for x in H(x), right? 02:29:26 that gives you an optimal solution: set x to x1 + x2. 02:29:34 Your formulation seems broken. 02:30:03 Possibly. 02:30:08 I want to compute H. 02:30:18 Not just H for a particular value of x. 02:31:30 But you have all given me some things to think about, so that's what I will do, and then come back with a better formulation. 02:32:11 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.78] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 02:32:42 If you want to compute H(x) for all x, I'm pretty sure the endpoint sort & merge works, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't possible to share more computations. 02:33:13 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:45 beach: did you want to mean in your problem statement that there are ranges where the "segments" are not horizontal? (eg. from 10 to 20, F(x) = 2x) 02:34:02 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:13 pjb: The segments are definitely not necessarily horizontal. 02:34:13 -!- chiehwen [~chiehwen@114-32-131-147.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:34:18 ok. 02:34:24 pjb: I mean, they might be, but typically not. 02:34:52 pjb: Which I incorrectly stated as "continuous". 02:35:00 Yes. On the other hand, the slopes must be integer. 02:35:08 rational 02:35:27 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:36:01 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:36:11 I guess not. If a slope is rational, starting from n, F(n+1) won't be natural. 02:36:36 pjb: Right the range is the nonnegative rationals. 02:37:00 Ok. 02:40:02 *|3b|* wonders how long it would take to just precalculate it and see what it looks like 02:40:27 <|3b|> i guess it depends on the slope of the end segments 02:40:40 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:40:50 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:53 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:41:05 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:53 beach: and the last slope (to the infinity) may be different from 0 I guess? 02:44:24 pjb: Yes. The last slope can be >= 0 02:48:09 <|3b|> so is the idea to quickly go from a set of segments for F,G to something similar for H? 02:48:41 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:50:38 |3b|: Definitely! 02:51:28 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:53:49 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:52 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:02 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:54:17 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:57:24 beach: So, if I understand well, and if lisppaste deals with unicode correctly, the problem is http://paste.lisp.org/display/119868 02:57:27 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:47 <|3b|> seems like given 2 segments corresponding to f(x1..x1') and g(x-x1'..x-x1), the min of the max value is either the intersection or the lower endpoint of the higher segment if they don't intersect, right? 03:00:34 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:00:35 pjb: Looking good so far. 03:02:09 |3b|: Not quite, but almost (I think). It is the smallest one of the endpoints and the intersection. 03:03:06 *|3b|* isn't sure if that generalizes usefully to 'plane segments' or not when x varies 03:04:04 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:04:14 |3b|: No, you were right in the first place. Sorry! 03:04:54 <|3b|> seems like it should be quadratic in the number of segments of f,g 03:05:45 memoization could help, but in the worst case, yes. 03:07:27 Quadratic in the number of segments would be fine. It is expected to be small. 03:08:50 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:09:10 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:37 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:42 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:44 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:15:45 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23:28 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:24:16 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:26:27 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:26:51 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:27:02 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:27:03 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.80] has joined #lisp 03:29:12 -!- cibs [~cibs@140.113.22.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:30:14 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:15 cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 03:32:47 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34:09 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:34:53 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:39:26 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 03:39:43 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:40:06 -!- quodlibetor [~user@user-12lc7vm.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:45:01 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:46:54 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.218] has joined #lisp 03:49:58 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:51:11 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.99.153] has joined #lisp 03:55:13 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:56:14 -!- icbh [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:57:22 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-130-64.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:59:25 pers [~user@211.sub-75-193-14.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 03:59:56 cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:00:05 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 04:00:21 -!- ericklc [~ikki@189.139.219.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:00:57 -!- wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:02:01 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:04 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@78-1-185-134.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:04:19 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.88.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:05:30 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.126] has joined #lisp 04:07:52 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-25-16.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 04:13:49 adamvh_ [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:16:16 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:16:16 -!- adamvh_ is now known as adamvh 04:16:27 oudeis [~oudeis@200.38.30.180.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:34 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:19:29 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.235] has joined #lisp 04:20:24 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has left #lisp 04:20:29 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 04:21:28 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:22:39 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:03 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:25:59 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-142-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:33:54 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:34:39 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:34:49 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:39 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 04:36:03 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:38:44 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:38:46 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 04:38:46 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:39:47 MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:48 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:40:29 |3b|: Ah, but the intersection of those two line segment does not necessarily have an integer x-value. 04:42:22 <|3b|> beach: ah, true, so i guess whichever is lower of the neighboring coords in that case 04:42:22 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:42:51 right, the function is convex, so it suffices to consider the ceiling and floow. 04:42:56 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:43:42 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:59 pkhuong: What function is convex? 04:45:12 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:45:23 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:47 max(F(x1), G(x-x1)), for x1 in a range such that F and G are affine functions. 04:47:15 OK, sure. 04:48:12 beach, good morning 04:48:26 hello kushal 04:48:52 kushal: Aren't you going to great the others (not individually, of course)? 04:49:04 :) 04:49:10 good morning all :) 04:50:17 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:52:20 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-68-38-142-34.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:52:27 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 04:53:26 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 04:54:22 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:54:41 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:54:51 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Some days you are the pigeon, other days the statue.] 04:56:51 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-swhunsbaszxqahut] has joined #lisp 04:57:14 nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:16 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:02:25 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.80] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 05:03:02 -!- MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:06:20 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 05:07:01 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 05:07:30 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:41 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:09:15 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 05:10:05 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:12:25 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:12:30 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:17 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:14:49 -!- cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:17:20 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 05:17:35 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:15 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:19:17 cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 05:21:04 -!- cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:21:14 cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 05:21:44 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-116.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:22:27 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:22:35 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:19 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 05:23:30 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:23:39 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:28:10 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:29:01 I guess I am not smart enough today to figure this out. I'll let it sink in for a while. 05:31:00 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 05:31:53 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:35:18 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37:02 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jsmuudbgqwfsqilf] has joined #lisp 05:38:15 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-196.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:39:48 basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-079-064.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:32 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-swhunsbaszxqahut] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:43:55 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:28 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@70.249.150.112] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:47:43 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:52:15 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:52:59 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:56:01 spradnyesh [~pradyus@115.242.144.177] has joined #lisp 05:56:05 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:07 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 05:59:05 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:59:50 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:50 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:01:05 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:52 Pip [~Pip@unaffiliated/pip] has joined #lisp 06:05:30 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:05:36 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:05:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:05:37 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:06:05 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:51 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.58.114.88.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 06:12:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:12:23 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.148.80] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 06:13:32 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-196.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:13:50 Bah, H might not even have a finite representation in the form of line segments: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fgh.png 06:13:56 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-196.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:16:33 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 06:17:43 cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:37 <|3b|> beach: is that 3rd graph supposed to match the numbers in the list? 06:18:57 Yes. 06:19:02 Did I do it wrong? 06:19:14 Liera [~Liera@123.21.157.152] has joined #lisp 06:19:29 <|3b|> ah, i guess it does match the numbers in your list, maybe i transcribed the code wrong 06:19:56 <|3b|> yeah, looks like i did, never mind then :( 06:20:19 -!- Pip [~Pip@unaffiliated/pip] has left #lisp 06:22:09 <|3b|> seems periodic at least, so you might be able to have the final segment mapped to an offset and mod 06:22:13 That's a Bresenham line though, so perhaps there is another representation, finite this time. 06:22:23 |3b|: Yeah. 06:23:01 *|3b|* suspects the shape is an artifact of that particular f and g 06:23:58 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:13 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-215-231.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:22 |3b|: Definitely, the "slope" of the last segment is 4/5 which is (4*1)/(4+1) where 4 and 1 are the slopes of the final segments of G and F. 06:24:24 <|3b|> hmm, or maybe not 06:25:08 <|3b|> yeah, that makes sense 06:25:13 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@115.242.144.177] has left #lisp 06:26:50 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-85-224.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28:44 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:49 -!- pers [~user@211.sub-75-193-14.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:29:23 Vichfret [~Vicfred@189.143.99.153] has joined #lisp 06:29:33 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.99.153] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:31:09 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:31:14 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-101.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:32:21 -!- apox_ is now known as apox 06:33:21 -!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:04 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:59 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:39:19 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:39:54 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:43:26 gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:25 <|3b|> beach: possibly the ceiling of the line with that slope? 06:46:55 |3b|: Yeah, but then imagine combining two such things :( 06:47:14 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:31 <|3b|> you mean repeating the process with F and G being an H from a previous step? 06:48:43 -!- sako [~sako@unaffiliated/sako] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:49:54 Gryllida [gryllida@wikinews/Gryllida] has joined #lisp 06:50:13 Where is the `lisp configuration file` located at Debian? 06:50:32 what is "lisp configuration file"? 06:50:33 <|3b|> what do you mean by 'the lisp configuration file'? 06:50:54 I don't know, there's one lisp program which asks me to find that in readme 06:51:21 <|3b|> do you have a link to that readme? 06:51:32 https://github.com/nixeagle/nisp 06:53:08 <|3b|> ok, so a user config file for a particular lisp... next question is which lisp do you use? 06:54:56 |3b|: Yes, exactly. 06:55:28 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-101.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:56:17 GNU CLISP 2.48 (2009-07-28) is what I have (apt-get install clisp) but not sure whether this program is ok with that one 06:56:46 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:56:46 |3b|: ^ 06:57:47 <|3b|> hmm, sourceforge ate clisp home page, they get better every day :p 06:58:15 I'll be here in a few minutes again 06:58:17 -!- Gryllida [gryllida@wikinews/Gryllida] has left #lisp 06:58:29 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.235] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:59:03 Gryllida [gryllida@wikinews/Gryllida] has joined #lisp 06:59:07 back 06:59:43 <|3b|> Gryllida: looks like for clisp, the file is .clisprc.lisp 07:00:10 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.241] has joined #lisp 07:00:44 no such file; ' ls ~ | grep lisp ' no output 07:01:17 <|3b|> well, first ls probably doesn't show files with names starting with . by default, and second, you probably need to create it 07:01:17 ls -la ~ | grep lisp, even 07:01:34 ok. 07:01:50 any idea whether I installed the right lisp for this? 07:02:08 no, the right would be SBCL 07:03:03 Gryllida: And before you go away, don't use apt-get install to install SBCL. 07:03:08 and what is this thing, nisp? i can't find any description 07:03:50 beach: why? 07:04:09 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:12 Gryllida: I don't know the details, but it always messes things up. 07:04:30 Gryllida: what does nisp do? 07:04:39 it probably chops sbcl into a thousand little bits, like the way it messes up other languages 07:04:50 <|3b|> my main argument in favor of avoiding debian packages is that we don't support them here :) 07:05:04 And where would SBCL config be located? >.> 07:05:08 Like, normally 07:05:12 <|3b|> so as soon as anything goes wrong, the first step will be to get rid of them and install from upstream + quicklisp anyway 07:05:16 debian/unbuntu package chopping, that is 07:05:25 <|3b|> sbcl uses .sbclrc 07:06:28 win2000user [~user@nx01.darkholdings.com] has joined #lisp 07:06:36 -!- Gryllida [gryllida@wikinews/Gryllida] has left #lisp 07:06:40 chopwood: yeah, it chops asdf out of sbcl and then uses common-lisp-controller with its own asdf to manage the same sources between different implementations 07:06:52 which doesn't always end up good 07:07:19 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:08:03 so, can someone tell me what is «nisp» and why someone with no lisp experience would want to install it? 07:08:25 *|3b|* was wondering about the choice of that particular repo as well 07:08:38 -!- Vichfret [~Vicfred@189.143.99.153] has quit [Quit: ] 07:09:04 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:09:24 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:14 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-137-64.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:10:30 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hxpxrezeuxtygxpw] has joined #lisp 07:11:18 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 07:11:59 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:13:23 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:14:30 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:52 -!- churib_ is now known as churib 07:16:04 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:15 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:27 <|3b|> beach: yeah, i guess ceiling doesn't work for non-integral slopes either, even without combining them 07:18:59 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:20:43 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:21:17 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:21:18 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:21:18 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:22:29 -!- setheus_ [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:22:38 <|3b|> or integral for that matter, now that i try a few more :p 07:23:37 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.126.144.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:24:04 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:24:09 |3b|: Yeah, this thing seems a bit more complicated than I initially thought. 07:25:58 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 07:28:22 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@82.143.212.234] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:29:28 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:31:36 Davsebamse [~das@office.ipvision.dk] has joined #lisp 07:31:39 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:36:38 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:38:01 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 07:40:05 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:42:35 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B327ECE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:24 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:43:37 good morning 07:43:50 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5082ABDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:14 echo-are` [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 07:45:44 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:51:38 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:52:54 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:32 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-ulykhgcpvhudczyi] has joined #lisp 08:02:14 whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-157-162.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:05 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-3.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:03:52 -!- whee_ [~whee@cpe-69-207-157-162.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:04:57 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 08:06:18 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:14:56 giuserpe [~giuserpe@net-93-64-240-254.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 08:15:25 -!- giuserpe [~giuserpe@net-93-64-240-254.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has left #lisp 08:17:35 mcguitan83 [~user@negroni.enst.fr] has joined #lisp 08:21:43 basho___ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-079-064.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:27 -!- basho__ [~basho__@dslb-092-076-079-064.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:27:51 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28:10 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:29:46 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has left #lisp 08:31:50 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has joined #lisp 08:32:39 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 08:33:09 chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-92-4-220.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:35:26 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-137-64.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:35:54 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-122-250.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:36:59 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 08:38:44 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 08:38:50 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.126.144.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:39:44 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:50 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-47-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:39:50 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:41:38 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:49:56 loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has joined #lisp 08:54:54 _danb_ [~user@124-171-12-242.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:57:00 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755d31.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:16 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-133-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:01:07 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:03:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:03:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 09:03:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 09:06:42 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 09:08:03 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:10:48 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 09:13:15 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:13:32 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E915.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:39 morning lispers 09:13:51 morning! 09:13:52 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:14:51 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-25-16.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:16:34 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:17:54 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9EBD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:18:48 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 09:20:59 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:21:06 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:23:35 dev_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:24 blinda [~blinda@77.43.6.114] has joined #lisp 09:26:58 hi 09:28:43 hello blinda 09:28:51 hello kiuma 09:29:13 what about summer of lisp symposium? 09:29:26 it's kinda interesting 09:30:04 blinda: what is the "summer of lisp symposium"? 09:30:19 TeMPOraL [~user@static-195-114-183-51.devs.futuro.pl] has joined #lisp 09:30:37 *beach* wants to know as well. 09:30:42 #summeroflisp 09:30:46 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 09:31:05 blinda: that is an irc channel, i recon. maybe you ask there what it is. 09:31:19 I know what is it 09:31:38 and I'd like to go there :) 09:31:41 So what is it? 09:31:46 blinda: /join #summeroflisp 09:32:01 haha 09:32:39 Xaxh sponsored it on his blog 09:32:47 Xach sponsored it on his blog 09:32:50 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:33:15 -!- echo-are` [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:33:21 found it: http://lispnyc.org/soc 09:33:37 the old lispnyc summer of code thing 09:33:47 blinda: are you talking about the "european lisp symposium"? 09:33:56 yes 09:34:07 is it related to summer of lisp? 09:34:10 blinda: no. 09:34:22 ah ok, I think it was, sorry 09:35:59 -!- meingbg [~meingbg@c-5ee3e055.85-2-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:11 meingbg [~meingbg@c-5ee3e055.85-2-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:36:33 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:36:58 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:37:06 then what is summer of lisp? 09:37:38 blinda: can you please use google? 09:37:50 yes I'm looking for it 09:38:07 blinda: good. 09:38:56 blinda: see the link i pasted above 09:39:34 That link doesn't say anything about deadlines. I guess one would have to go to Google SOC for that. 09:39:48 nikodemus: thanks 09:40:18 nikodemus: but there are only strict Lisp related... 09:40:32 nikodemus: Lisp for Lisp, not applications with Lisp 09:41:24 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:29 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:43:51 Hmm, the list of accepted mentoring organizations won't be published until March 18. Does this mean that LispNYC is not sure to be accepted yet? 09:44:14 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:45:12 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2E5D.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:48:52 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.226.120] has joined #lisp 09:48:54 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:49:09 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:32 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:51:12 blinda: yes, that's the way it's always been with lispnyc's soc projects 09:54:12 me and a cow-worker have written a code to solve circuit in Lisp, would be nice to receive hints, suggestion and comprehend other people in our project 09:54:41 -!- chopwood [~chopwood@c-24-63-111-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:55:38 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.226.120] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 09:58:23 -!- dev_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:59:34 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:40 drl_ [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 10:00:44 dev__ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:06 -!- drl_ [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Client Quit] 10:01:29 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:01:49 -!- dev__ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:13 _dev0_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:14 -!- _dev0_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:02:54 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:03:04 _dev0_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:20 -!- meingbg [~meingbg@c-5ee3e055.85-2-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:05:33 blinda: what kind of circuits? 10:05:55 Ralith: electrical 10:06:03 Ralith: with non linearities 10:06:40 Non-linearities make everything hard :C 10:06:43 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-133-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:06:56 blinda: so, analog circuits? 10:07:01 Ralith: sinusoidal source feeding a long line feeding a gas-discharge lamp 10:07:14 -!- QinGW [~wangqingw@60.247.26.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:07:14 oh, not a generalized simulator. 10:07:23 Ralith: yes, but we're working to achieve synchronous generator models 10:07:56 Ralith: indeed it is a general simulator 10:08:02 Sounds like something a lot of people would use simulink for 10:08:17 Ralith: it solves DAE arising from system solving 10:08:22 blinda: oh? Sounds like a pretty major undertaking. 10:08:47 if it works well, I bet there are a lot of potential users out there 10:09:00 jesusabdullah: with the difference that simulink sometimes doesn't converge on this kind of problem and it is pretty slow 10:09:22 Ralith: yes we try to study problems like power loadflow 10:09:32 Ah, I see. 10:09:37 Ralith: electrical systems failures and so on 10:09:49 Curse you RK methods!! 10:10:08 Ralith: but DAE are so powerful that you can solve digital circuit too 10:10:18 blinda: any plans on releasing this code? 10:10:42 Ralith: open source as we reach our minimal goals 10:10:44 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.226.120] has joined #lisp 10:11:02 blinda: cool! I look forward to seeing it. 10:11:08 thanks 10:11:19 we're working on it in our spare time 10:11:21 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:11:30 meingbg [~meingbg@c-5ee3e055.85-2-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:12:11 m1ngus [~nmajo@mi061032.klientdrift.uib.no] has joined #lisp 10:12:56 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:13:59 -!- meingbg [~meingbg@c-5ee3e055.85-2-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 10:15:38 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-133-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:18:24 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:28 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:19:32 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.226.120] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:20:59 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:27:04 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:04 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:32 -!- win2000user [~user@nx01.darkholdings.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:29:33 win2000user [~user@wikinews/Gryllida] has joined #lisp 10:30:19 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:32:35 -!- m1ngus [~nmajo@mi061032.klientdrift.uib.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:32:48 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: Meep.] 10:34:43 m1ngus [~nmajo@mi061032.klientdrift.uib.no] has joined #lisp 10:36:12 -!- m1ngus [~nmajo@mi061032.klientdrift.uib.no] has quit [Client Quit] 10:36:59 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:17 ilmari_ [ilmari@knuth.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:37:31 -!- ilmari_ is now known as ilmari 10:38:19 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:38:30 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:38:42 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:40:14 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:41:59 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:59 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:43:38 -!- blinda [~blinda@77.43.6.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48:07 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:48:37 Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.181.247] has joined #lisp 10:49:27 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 10:49:33 lacedaemon [~lacedaemo@2a01:4f8:101:4221::2] has joined #lisp 10:49:33 -!- lacedaemon [~lacedaemo@2a01:4f8:101:4221::2] has quit [Changing host] 10:49:33 lacedaemon [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 10:49:49 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:59 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 10:50:13 -!- Guest69870 [~longshot@180.184.10.145] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:50:37 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 10:51:05 -!- gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 10:53:04 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:54:49 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:49 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:55:12 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:57:36 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-243-127.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:17 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-39-233-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:59:18 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus 11:06:25 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 11:06:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 11:06:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:09:14 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-8b92e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:10:59 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-245-60-219.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 11:14:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-3.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:17:27 drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 11:19:12 clhs mapc 11:20:05 http://l1sp.org/cl/mapc 11:20:50 thanks I keep on forgetting about that little service of yours 11:21:43 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:23:37 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 11:25:09 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:25:40 *Xach* uses it whenever his favorite clhs shortcuts are unavailable 11:25:59 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:27:58 Good evening everyone! 11:30:32 -!- Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Switching to single-player mode.] 11:30:49 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:31:14 Hi beach, how is your new version of Clim coming along? 11:32:55 drl: You are touching on a very sensitive subject. I cannot call it "new version of CLIM anymore", so I'll find some other name for it. Today, I have been working on layout issues, but what I had hoped to use didn't work. 11:33:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-3.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:33:20 You could call it Climt. 11:34:09 or just Gustav 11:34:21 Bad for search engines. 11:34:39 lgui 11:35:04 I was thinking of 3MILC. 11:35:16 easyE: ping 11:36:45 Do a search for lgui. 11:36:51 drl: Otherwise, in the past few days I finished a protocol (including implementation) that allows for a very large hierarchy of zones to be incrementally repainted very fast. I need to write more tests, and then performance tests. 11:38:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-68-221.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:40:20 Is there an implementation independant way of measuring time in milliseconds? Or do I allways have to mess around with the INTERNAL-TIME-UNITS-PER-SECOND variable? 11:40:29 beach: I'm very happy to know that you are still working on this project. I'm very interested. 11:41:09 drl: Good to know. 11:45:02 jtza8: only through FFI 11:46:53 fe[nl]ix: Thanks. 11:46:58 I have 5 lisp books ordered and on their way. Lisp has opened doors for me---enabled me to finish projects very important to me. Has anyone here read Let Over Lambda? 11:47:23 CliMate 11:47:42 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:48:31 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 11:49:49 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.10.145] has joined #lisp 11:50:16 -!- longshot_ is now known as Guest10292 11:50:28 frodef: Hmm, yeah, that's a possibility. Though I think anything that suggests any association with CLIM is not going to work right now. 11:50:41 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 11:51:29 jtza8: I suppose, though, that most implementations export gettimeofday() one way or another 11:52:25 lgui is a GTK binding for Lua. So, I guess that's out. 11:52:30 m1ngus1 [~Adium@tunnel-32-167.vpn.uib.no] has joined #lisp 11:52:30 beach: Oh, I took your comment to mean it was too close to CLIM, but you meant too /far/ I suppose :) 11:52:35 <_8david`> beach: I've lost track of your GUI work. Is there a spec or code available? 11:52:53 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:53:04 fe[nl]ix: I suppose, but yeah, I already need CFFI, so I guess using it would be easiest. 11:54:34 _8david`: Given the discussion during the past week, I am reluctant to showing it to a wider audience right now. Nothing personal. 11:55:43 frodef: Don't worry about it. Let's just say that I don't want to get into a similar discussion to the one that I had with mathrick the other day. 11:56:29 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-133-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:00:09 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:02:09 <_8david`> beach: OK. I was mainly curious to learn whether you are primarily doing spec work or also implementation work. 12:02:15 <_8david`> If if it's the latter, whether it's a pure lisp implementation, or something meant to (or able to) wrap other widget libraries. 12:03:07 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-133-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:03:29 beach: BOLM 12:03:40 (Beach's Own Layout Manager) 12:03:56 _8david`: I think the latter is inevitable 12:04:37 rootlocus [~jolyonwhi@2402:1800:1:2801:226:4aff:fe09:eee2] has joined #lisp 12:04:50 -!- Gmind [~Nevermind@113.190.181.247] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:05:58 _8david`, fe[nl]ix: actually beach has stated explicitly that he will sacrifice the latter if he deems it to be the right thing 12:06:25 mathrick: Not for CLIM3. 12:06:29 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:31 beach: then you've got me horribly confused again. I thought CLIM3 was your own "do GUI the right way" research, and for that you considered the ability to wrap other libraries incidental 12:07:34 mathrick: Because what I am doing is not called that anymore. 12:07:51 mathrick: That was before it changed names. 12:08:03 yeah, so are you doing that AND another CLIM3? 12:08:26 mathrick: No, I am counting on you to do CLIM3. I am working on my research. 12:08:49 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:12 beach: oh, I had no idea that was the case. Right now I'm still busy researching L4, which is several layers too low for even thinking about GUI yet 12:09:50 _8david`, fe[nl]ix: see the Tunes log 11.02.14 starting around 15:00. 12:10:09 L4 being the shorthand for "probably SBCL on top of an L4 implementation forming the basis on top of which the feasibility of a modern LispOS might be investigated" 12:10:50 mathrick: Any modern LispOS must take modern practices like Windows, MacOS and Linux into account, and be Posix compatible. I hope you are doing that. 12:11:04 beach: I really don't see the reason for your sarcasm 12:11:20 OK, I'll stop now. 12:11:49 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:12:00 mathrick: Sorry if I offended you. 12:13:03 beach: no hard feelings, I'm just a bit disappointed you see it as a standoff between "my way" and "your way". I don't see why they'd necessarily need to be incompatible or at odds 12:13:34 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:14:01 I'm genuinely interested in your research, especially in CLIM, in no small part because you have way more experience with CLIM than I do. I know GTK+, yes, and am interested in UI, but I don't have any actual experience with CLIM, which is vastly different 12:15:34 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-107.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:08 mathrick: I am sure there will be ways to collaborate eventually. 12:16:52 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-171-12-242.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:17:02 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:05 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:19:07 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:19:39 beach: I sure hope so. I think the primary difference between our views is that of motivation: you're looking for an interesting research topic resulting in publications, and I'm looking for ways to alleviate the constant pain of interacting with my computer. Thus my goals might be somewhat less pure and more focused on not lowering my standard of life if I really decide to spend my time on setting up an OS nobody else in the world uses 12:20:29 I'm no longer in highschool and setting up the OS for the sake of setting up the OS is somewhat less fun now :) 12:21:10 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:21:20 aren't there any tools for preconfiguring the os ? 12:21:27 i thought there are! 12:21:59 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:03 homie: not if setting up the OS involves writing it first :) 12:22:35 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:26:33 hello. I'm new here. 12:26:43 mathrick: it's cheating if you don't write the compiler before that! ;) 12:26:44 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.148.80] has joined #lisp 12:26:53 hi rootlocus 12:27:02 frodef: fortunately I can steal yours :) 12:27:25 actually, my goals involve writing as little as possible 12:27:50 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:27:56 please do! :) 12:28:01 urandom__ [~user@p548A49BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:42 mathrick: if one of your goals is writing as little as possible, I would recommend you base your lisp os off of ubuntu 12:29:12 oconnore: however, my primary goal is to break free of linux and ubuntu in particular 12:29:26 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:29:47 mathrick: is your main interest userpace or kernel? 12:29:49 why? 12:30:04 oconnore: because I use ubuntu today, and I'm sick of it and everything it stands for 12:30:17 what does it stand for? 12:30:29 and I have a deep-seated hatred for linux-the-project and the way it's run 12:31:00 rootlocus: both, since neither is a settled matter as far as writing a lispos today goes 12:31:03 that's unfortunate. well, you could base your lisp os off of a *BSD? 12:31:30 the linux kernel is probably one of the less braindamaged projects, though there have been very bad (but fixable if you're building a distro) decisions regarding certain features... 12:31:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:31:52 oconnore: yes, but basing things on top of a monolithic POSIX kernel sounds like an exercise in undoing everything the kernel assumes about the userspace 12:32:42 oconnore: L4/Linux sounds better 12:32:59 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 12:33:08 write your OS on top of L4, use Linux running as a process to handle hw you don't have the drivers for 12:33:09 p_l|backup: nah, if I go for L4, I'd rather build on top of L4 itself rather than L4/Linux 12:33:09 but posix kernel's are not incompatible with lisp. see sbcl for reference? i don't understand. 12:33:16 ah, then yes 12:33:22 that's exactly what I want to try 12:33:52 oconnore: I don't have much love for POSIX itself. It's a less stupid model than Windows for instance, but it doesn't make it unstupid 12:34:15 Has lisp learned nothing about playing well with others from the last decades? :) 12:34:18 oconnore: POSIX was a standardization of a broken system, which was funnily broken by BSD guys 12:34:28 I don't really want a distro with SBCL built in, I want a LispOS for the 21st century 12:34:49 anyway, afk for now - mathrick, please upload the VM somewhere, I'll clean it up myself :3 12:35:59 p_l|backup: hurgh, there are technical hurdles still which are difficult to explain if you haven't seen the broken husk of my laptop in action. But please bug me, I'll get around to it at one point 12:36:42 mathrick: I really think you could build on top of a linux/bsd install in such a way that the user would never even know they were using a posix system. with that level of abstraction, who cares if you are running on posix? you write whatever abstraction layer you feel you need, and then never look at it again! 12:37:01 no more posix, right? 12:37:49 oconnore: one of the problems is that I need to solve the question of a process model inside a lisp image. And it doesn't seem to me that the POSIX process model yields itself to doing that 12:38:11 process-and-security model really 12:38:17 mathrick: You might ask yourself "why is a lisp image a good idea?" 12:41:43 Zhivago: for three reasons. One is that CL is pretty much defined in a way that makes it hard to do something else than an image. The other is that the primary benefit of using a LispOS, everything being at your fingertips, basically _is_ an image. Third is that I've seen the separate binaries model fail very hard, and it's really at the core of many of my gripes with POSIX. The world is moving towards the image model too, even if nobody admits it. So I'm 12:41:43 trying to unbreak the image model, because I think it's a saner approach than trying to unbreak the process-per-binary model 12:42:21 mathrick: The problem with images is that they are a kind of anti-scaling mechanism. 12:42:43 Zhivago: are you thinking of scaling in terms of multiple machines? 12:42:51 mathrick: Which part of the world is moving toward an image model? 12:43:05 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:43:17 Zhivago: Singularity/Midori, Android, everything built on JVM 12:43:24 mathrick: Not just multiple machines, but also multiple cores. 12:43:34 although Android actually does an interesting hack with Linux and its processes 12:43:36 No. Android is firmly in the process camp. 12:44:55 mathrick: ignoring the fact that I think you should listen to Zhivago, that is not incompatible with posix. a process within a posix os can have many kernel threads assigned to it. and your lisp image could assign independent tasks to each of those threads, making sure that none of them do something illegal. 12:45:06 Zhivago: I don't think multiple cores should be a problem. The biggest problem of the image model is that of the lack of clear boundaries and the consequent ease of breaking everything. I believe I have something like an approach for solving that 12:45:13 A posix process is a virtual machine. 12:45:14 and if you run into problems in that approach, i guarantee extending sbcl is easier than writing an os on top of L4... 12:45:24 You can write drivers for it and off you go. 12:45:57 So, what are you going to call those boundaries, if not process boundaries? 12:46:37 oconnore: but a posix process gives no provisions for making a supervisor thread that's able to control the others. And it'd be extraordinarily hard to make a posix compatibility layer contained within a posix process 12:46:59 and I do think that at least a partial compatibility layer is necessary for it to be useful in practical terms 12:47:02 Why do you need such supervision? 12:47:03 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 12:47:13 Zhivago: because I can't trust any of the threads 12:47:31 Then run them in separate machines :) 12:47:33 the image model is too trusting 12:47:59 You might be reinventing Erlang 12:48:11 I might be 12:48:13 Erlang is a sensible process oriented system. 12:48:51 Zhivago: I do in essence plan to introduce processes to the image world 12:49:04 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:27 So, what does 'image' mean now? 12:49:31 mathrick: The Erlang guys published papers on the matter. I haven't read them but they have been recommended to me 12:49:48 Zhivago: the fact that you can tear down the boundaries when given appropriate authorisation 12:49:56 tcr1: have links handy? 12:50:25 What benefit does that give over message passing, apart from breaking scalability? 12:50:29 isn't that what shared memory and pipes are for? 12:50:52 er... what Zhivago said. 12:51:03 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.148.80] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 12:51:14 sellout [~Adium@64.134.66.75] has joined #lisp 12:51:42 oconnore: pipes are a terrible, disgusting kludge to simulate properly expressive IPC 12:51:56 Yeah, you're better off with datagrams :) 12:52:14 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:52:29 But frankly, what do you want other than message passing for IPC? 12:52:39 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:53:23 Joreji [~thomas@68-058.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:53:27 I think you should reflect what you like about image-basedness. Off hand, it seems to me to be introspection and easy data transfer. Both of which should be more easily appliable to a process-based system than trying to restrict an image-based system 12:53:31 I think the value of a decent control stack is underestimated. 12:54:31 control stack like what? 12:54:59 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:55:03 like the stack one typically gets to inspect in a lisp debugger. 12:56:17 leo2007 [~leo@117.28.12.30] has joined #lisp 12:56:19 huangho [~vitor@201-41-12-186.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 12:57:08 you mean running the debugger on top of the current stack instead of automatic unwinding? 12:57:47 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-41-12-186.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Client Quit] 12:57:51 yes, that too. 12:59:03 -!- Swappage [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/swappage] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 13:00:05 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:00:19 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:19 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:00:35 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 13:00:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-3.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:02:31 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-152-9.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:04:32 mathrick is working on an lisp os? 13:06:03 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hxpxrezeuxtygxpw] has left #lisp 13:06:38 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:45 urandom__: not really, more being resigned to the fact I might start doing that at some point 13:07:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-3.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:08:38 and doing some lightweight research 13:09:35 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:09:44 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 13:10:14 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:10:22 mathrick nice, have you already looked at movitz? tell me more about your ideas 13:11:26 urandom__: I have, yes, but movitz combines the difficulty of writing an OS with the difficulty of writing a CL implementation. My idea is more along the lines of SBCL on top of L4 13:12:23 urandom__: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/fh99v/would_it_be_possible_write_an_entire_os_in_lisp/c1gelry 13:12:26 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-107.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:14:53 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-107.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:58 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:15:02 -!- sellout [~Adium@64.134.66.75] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:15:25 sellout [~Adium@64.134.66.75] has joined #lisp 13:16:57 mathrick: does SBCL make significant assumptions about having a POSIX OS underneath it? 13:17:28 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-133-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:39 some, yes. But there's been a running SBCL port to bare-metal, so they're not impossible to change 13:17:47 mathrick i personally believe that an lisp os or any new os should be kept single user since it adds a lot of simplicity 13:18:20 urandom__: single user or not, you still need the protection against a single app crashing the entire OS 13:18:27 or worse, against malicious apps 13:18:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-3.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:19:50 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:20:14 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:20:15 Isn't that why people invented virtual machines to run programs in (i.e., processes)? 13:20:25 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-168-33.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:20:27 rly [~rly@unaffiliated/rly] has joined #lisp 13:20:58 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:21:14 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:29 SBCL on bare metal? sounds like fun 13:21:35 schaueho [d5a445c1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.164.69.193] has joined #lisp 13:21:37 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-79-127.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:22:16 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 13:22:25 tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #lisp 13:25:30 mathrick: is there any info available on the SBCL bare-metal port? It sounds interesting. Is it related to this? : http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/notes.txt 13:25:45 silenius [~silenus@p5DDBA79D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:46 -!- drl [~drl@110.139.230.142] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 13:26:23 i wonder why no "lets use linux/other posix as a driver supporter" project has not started out yet, shouldnt be that hard 13:26:35 drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has joined #lisp 13:26:52 rootlocus: yes, but there was another writeup somewhere too 13:26:58 <_8david`> re processes or virtual machines, google's work on sandboxing of x86 binaries using static verification to restrict them to a safe x86 subset seems like a really interesting innovation that adds a level of modularity below traditional processes. 13:27:00 urandom__: because nobody needs it? 13:27:10 urandom__: like sbcl? 13:27:27 urandom__: I plan to do that. L4 actually has a project which virtualises linux to act only as a driver provider 13:27:36 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:51 well you could also see emacs as an kind of os using linux for driver support :P 13:29:47 urandom__: all it needs is a decent text editor, as a vim user once said to me :-) 13:30:04 If the OS doesn't actually have final control, it is not really an OS. 13:30:21 That is why Emacs is not an OS in its default incarnation. 13:30:35 (someone made Emacs run on bare metal once) 13:30:53 -!- leo2007 [~leo@117.28.12.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:31:44 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:19 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:32:40 an "lisp os" running on an posix system doesnt really have final control, does it? 13:33:30 It depends. If it can be proven that the posix system is correct, you could argue that it does have final control. 13:34:56 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:54 What's the difference between running on bare metal and running in an emulator? 13:35:57 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:36:06 Final control is meaningless gibberish. 13:36:24 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:36:35 Linux doesn't stop being an os because you're running it in vmware. 13:36:37 no system has final control. the kernel can't stop you from smashing the motherboard during an operation. it's just a matter of what level of abstraction you are willing to accept. 13:37:39 for more realistinc fun, there's System Management Mode on the x86, where the firmware suspends the OS and does whatever it wants in response to whatever it wants 13:38:05 typically in response to an ACPI method call or I/O port write 13:39:07 I think that talking about oses is probably a mistake, and what you should be talking about is the machine that your program runs in. 13:39:11 i like the idea that i am able to solve the problems i have with my lisp os myself or at least get a good idea whats wrong but when the posix systems fucks up, i am fucked, abstraction leak, you know? 13:39:19 -!- _dev0_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:39:29 urandom: Sounds like selective ignorance. 13:39:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-3.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:39:48 Zhivago what do you mean? 13:39:51 urandom: Or perhaps you're complaining about poor introspectory protocols. 13:40:31 urandom: Someone could just as validly make the opposite claim. 13:40:47 urandom: Due to their being familiar with some posix system and unfamiliar with lisp. 13:41:11 ilmari: I'm not exactly sure I understand what you just said 13:41:22 -!- thorstad1_away is now known as thorstadt 13:41:56 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:59 that was targeted at the idea of running an lisp os on an posix system Zhivago, i dont want to mess with posix and c stuff when i am using an lisp os 13:42:00 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 13:42:02 mathrick: in response to oconnore's over-the-top example of the OS not having full control, I gave an actual, real example of the firmware doing stuff behind the OS' back 13:43:21 ilmari: interesting. Is that the protected mode x86 you're talking about? 13:43:24 no 13:43:32 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:35 mathrick: a lot of (especially power management) stuff is implemented via system management mode, where the processor suspends the OS for an arbitrary time without telling it and runs some code provided by the BIOS 13:44:18 ilmari: okay, but that's on x86 running in protected mode, not some kind of old-time DOS legacy 13:44:22 yeah 13:44:31 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-160-255.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 13:44:46 I wasn't aware of that, my grasp of the low-level stuff like ACPI is not particularly fine 13:45:04 ilmari: this is a relatively new development, right? (<5 years) 13:45:29 rly: SMM has been there since 386 days 13:45:53 messing with x86 which isnt really meant to be used as a lisp maschine is also part of the problem 13:46:25 rly: it's slowly giving way to ACPI and WMI these days 13:47:09 ilmari: WMI == ? 13:47:21 windows management interface 13:47:33 is that Win32-specific? 13:47:37 invented by microsoft because the ACPI spec was too comprehensible (according to matthew garret) 13:47:47 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:47:48 http://linuxconfau.blip.tv/file/4719842/ is an interesting talk on it 13:47:51 ah, yes, I remember mjg59 bitching about it 13:48:00 by mjg59 13:48:20 ACPI is kinda cute too, when it does the equivalent of user-agent sniffing 13:48:26 minion: logs? 13:48:37 pjb: minion is not here 13:48:41 :-( 13:49:01 Xach is our new bot, though I don't know if he also took over things like logs 13:49:03 mathrick: which is why linux claims to be windows 13:49:09 pjb: tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ 13:49:11 since the non-windows codepaths are never tested 13:49:16 yeah 13:49:27 fe[nl]ix: thanks. 13:49:39 -!- Joreji [~thomas@68-058.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:49:43 the only thing that has any probability of actually working is to behave as much like windows as possible 13:49:49 regardless of what the spec says 13:49:55 I think the notion of full control is valid and I think it is disappointing that x86 doesn't offer this, then. Is there still an embedded system which does allow complete control while not being trivial? 13:50:40 You can always write your own BIOS. 13:51:18 I mean, if you trust Intel doesn't put spyware on its silicium. 13:51:25 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:51:26 pjb: that requires one to know what the hardware does, which is a trade-secret. 13:51:32 ilmari: yeah, it sucks 13:51:44 fpga are cheap these days, lets make our own lisp-maschine! 13:51:56 fgpas could be hooked too. 13:51:57 Someone tried and built a Forth machine instead. 13:52:07 You will have to found your own silicium. 13:52:08 H4ns was that somebody 13:52:11 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:52:19 tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #lisp 13:52:35 pjb: the microscope to check for bugs could be fake too ;) 13:53:01 pjb: computer security is essentially an unsolved problem. 13:53:05 leo2007 [~leo@117.28.12.30] has joined #lisp 13:53:07 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:14 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:26 here is someone working on an lisp-maschine on fpga http://www.aviduratas.de/lisp/meval.html 13:57:09 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:57:59 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:58:50 Joreji [~thomas@68-058.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:58:53 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-jsmuudbgqwfsqilf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:59:29 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-ulykhgcpvhudczyi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:00:40 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 14:00:41 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 14:00:41 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 14:01:37 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-qjaekwvozbxaklqs] has joined #lisp 14:02:09 -!- rly [~rly@unaffiliated/rly] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 14:04:04 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:38 jesusito [~user@77.Red-80-58-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:55 -!- kruft` [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:35 -!- schaueho [d5a445c1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.164.69.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:07:08 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-qjaekwvozbxaklqs] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:31 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:07:52 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 14:07:52 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 14:07:53 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 14:08:07 mathrick: I'm pretty sure I could take on most of those hurdles ^_- 14:09:18 urandom__: looks like pretty simple design 14:10:37 p_l|backup the lisp maschine om fpga thing? 14:10:43 yes 14:11:14 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:07 I was considering doing something like that, but using OpenGenera's VLM approach running directly on metal with a load-store tagged design 14:13:32 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-upgkspbmribyzuze] has joined #lisp 14:13:36 my main target was/is however MMIX hw implementation, with goal of a complete workstation :) 14:14:39 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:09 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:12 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 14:15:20 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:17:43 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:18:34 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-133-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:44 hi ppl 14:19:04 is there anyone here involved in electrical engineering? 14:20:17 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:20:24 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:35 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.161.37.85] has joined #lisp 14:21:47 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-206-118.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:22:01 -!- rootlocus [~jolyonwhi@2402:1800:1:2801:226:4aff:fe09:eee2] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.50.1] 14:22:28 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:22:31 p_l|backup: with only proved algorithms? 14:22:58 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:23:06 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:23:06 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:06 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:59 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:11 pjb: what do you mean "only proved algorithms"? 14:24:53 btw, for people being scared of SMM mode, some motherboards allow disabling of SMM interrupt 14:24:58 MMIX is designed to run algorithms proved in TAOCP. 14:25:19 Logically, if you want to build a hardware implementation, it would be fitting to run on it only proved algorithms. 14:25:44 pjb: no. MMIX is designed as "sensible enough design to be familar to existing hw so students can apply what they learnt" 14:26:02 THat's how it has been designed, not why. 14:26:33 pjb: actually, the new fascicle said the "why" was "MIX got outdated and doesn't resemble in any way modern architectures" 14:26:34 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:27:04 at least that's how I remembered it from reading 14:27:17 ok. Still, it would be a nice change, if for once was delivered a workstation with a formal guarantee that it will never crash. 14:28:08 pjb: I'd take one that simply had rock solid implementation and made it easy to recover from crashes :) 14:28:16 there were some haskell-specific designs though :) 14:28:46 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:23 -!- cmm- [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:30:04 cmm [~cmm@109.64.211.191] has joined #lisp 14:30:07 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:30:33 MMIX is kind of simplified Alpha (well, it claims mainly Alpha and MIPS as inspiration, and at least one designer of Alpha helped with it) in quite a lot of places, fortunately removing the most insane parts (like the lack of implicit memory/cache coherence) 14:30:34 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:32:30 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:32:33 I simply loved the warnings adorning most instructions in my alpha architecture handbook about various stuff being undefined >_> 14:34:11 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:24 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:54 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:36:14 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:27 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-160-255.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:04 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:38:24 coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 14:39:00 Koven [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:40:00 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@122.161.37.85] has quit [Quit: See you in another life.] 14:40:34 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:02 -!- Koven is now known as Kovensky 14:41:28 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:41:34 http://funcall.blogspot.com/2011/02/early-lisp-program.html < that is pretty funny, esp. 5 and 6 14:42:31 lol 14:43:22 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-133-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:43:29 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:43:38 -!- drl [~lat@110.139.230.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:44:09 adamvh_ [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:59 Anyone here know of any good places to host a personal site via Lisp? 14:45:16 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:35 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 14:45:39 adamvh_: any dedicated server 14:45:49 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:45:56 or some VPS 14:46:01 galdor: Any recommendations? 14:46:11 benny` [~benny@i577A39BD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:16 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:46:16 -!- adamvh_ is now known as adamvh 14:46:21 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:22 I'm in Europe (France), OVH is fine 14:46:25 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:46:48 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:13 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-upgkspbmribyzuze] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:51 dnolen [~davidnole@12.130.116.167] has joined #lisp 14:50:02 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-tunryglbplsybjqu] has joined #lisp 14:50:40 Objectivist-C [~Objectivi@S0106001ff34343ab.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:56 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:54:36 hi Fare 14:54:42 -!- Objectivist-C [~Objectivi@S0106001ff34343ab.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Objectivist-C] 14:56:07 hi fe[nl]ix 14:57:30 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:57:35 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:41 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.76.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:58:16 xinming [~hyy@122.238.76.158] has joined #lisp 14:58:31 freiksenet: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/wang.html 14:58:51 pjb: hah. thanks 14:59:59 adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:10 -!- nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:49 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:04:09 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:07:10 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-79-127.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:15 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:43 pers [~user@240.sub-75-193-49.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:10:04 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:21 -!- coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:50 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 15:14:06 pjb: how exactly does the DEFINE(( thing work? 15:14:10 Morning folks... 15:14:19 mathrick: we read a symbol and a sexp. 15:14:20 hi pers 15:14:51 pjb: yes, but CL doesn't do things that way, you can't use algol notation for function calls 15:14:53 mathrick: see the progn inside the driver. 15:15:08 It's not algol notation. 15:15:13 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:16 It only works on the toplevel. 15:15:20 ah 15:15:26 so it has implicit () around it? 15:15:41 () and ' in front of the sexp 15:15:43 More or less. The first item read is a command. 15:16:13 But yes, in some cases it may be understood that way. 15:19:27 -!- emporas [~emporas@athedsl-167866.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:19:49 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-167866.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:20:06 -!- jesusito [~user@77.Red-80-58-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 15:21:35 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:29 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:24:40 angerman [~user@host135-2.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:25:52 what would be a good datastructure for a mesh for subdivision in lisp? 15:27:22 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:32 -!- Davsebamse [~das@office.ipvision.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:08 -!- angerman [~user@host135-2.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 15:31:16 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-116-48.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:35:24 -!- fmu___ [u89@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rmdfwuesyeqvkfdc] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by zombie] 15:38:09 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:00 angerman: what is a good datastructure for that in any other language (I dont understand "mesh for subdivision", though I can imagine)? Probably the same in lisp 15:41:04 -!- lispmeister__ [u272@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ebdxphfufhcnkiud] has quit [Quit: Connection reset by zombie] 15:41:14 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:41:27 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:41:28 angerman: Is this what you mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygon_mesh#Summary_of_mesh_representation 15:42:59 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:43:09 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:43 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:46:05 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@12.130.116.167] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:46:33 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@200.38.30.180.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:46:59 Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:47:21 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@inherent.puzzler.volia.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:54 adamvh_ [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:02 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:02 -!- adamvh_ is now known as adamvh 15:49:14 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:49:53 dnolen [~davidnole@12.130.116.167] has joined #lisp 15:50:09 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:05 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:52:07 -!- Amadiro_ [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:52:54 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:55:50 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:56:22 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:56:29 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:56:33 rins` [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:49 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:01 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.27] has joined #lisp 15:59:38 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.161.37.85] has joined #lisp 16:01:37 -!- sellout [~Adium@64.134.66.75] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:02:25 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:02:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:02:26 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 16:02:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 16:02:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:03:38 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@12.130.116.167] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:04:21 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:41 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:10 -!- rins` [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:27 -!- Guest10292 [~longshot@180.184.10.145] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:47 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 16:11:35 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 16:11:57 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 16:12:07 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:13:32 Is there a built version of the Babel manual anywhere? 16:14:41 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:16:29 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.10.145] has joined #lisp 16:16:56 -!- longshot_ is now known as Guest93775 16:17:12 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-206-118.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/] 16:17:19 dkasak [~dkasak@78-1-185-134.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 16:18:28 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:18:54 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:20:24 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.55] has joined #lisp 16:21:33 sykopomp: is there a Babel manual? 16:21:52 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:53 luis: there seems to be an attempt to make one in doc/ 16:22:23 sykopomp: IIRC, it's only a skeleton, I'm afraid. 16:22:25 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:53 oh, actually it's got some content 16:22:58 interesting. 16:23:52 -!- Guest93775 [~longshot@180.184.10.145] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:12 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 16:25:55 sykopomp: sorry, can't find a built version 16:26:58 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:27:45 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-103-115.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:29:47 luis: thanks for checking :) 16:31:19 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:43 chopwood [~chopwood@c-24-63-111-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:53 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-243-127.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:33:24 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:35:46 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:34 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:37:49 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:40:09 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:42:31 tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:08 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:43:13 mon_key [~user@74-143-13-202.static.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:26 -!- mon_key [~user@74-143-13-202.static.insightbb.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:43:39 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:43:51 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 16:43:58 hello lispers! 16:44:28 if i'm not a lisper, no hello for me? 16:44:58 stassats: Of course! esp. for you stassats - your special. Hello stassats! 16:45:12 stassats: If you are not a lisper, your presence is offtopic and must be corrected. 16:46:13 Are there variables which affect the conversion of #\TAB to whitespace e.g. the number of #\SPACE chars it might be interpolated to? 16:46:34 tab isn't converted to anything 16:46:54 Bronsa [~brace@host55-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:47:19 Xach: if i were not a lisper, i wouldn't tell 16:47:35 mon_key: that only happens in certain text editors. 16:47:40 so (write-char #\TAB) will always write a char 9? 16:47:49 yes 16:47:52 no 16:47:57 ? 16:48:27 its code isn't mandated 16:49:01 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:02 It's a so-called "semi-standard" character, I believe. 16:50:53 ok 16:52:03 even fully-standard characters have implementation-dependent code 16:53:19 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:22 so that you can run on EBCDIC 16:55:50 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:54 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:55:57 -!- pnq [~nick@AC811902.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:45 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:58:49 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:59:29 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-101.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:00:26 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01:10 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:01:18 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:01:49 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:46 I'm still puzzing out some things I initially queried about on Saturday. 17:04:00 Initially I inquired about portability of char-name/name-char. 17:04:10 Yesterday I pasted some stuff wrt a problem in a loop. Apropos that paste, it was determined (with the help/advice of 3b and pjb) that I'd be best off with cl-interpol, using dispatch-macros, or modifying the readtable to accomplish my goal. 17:04:17 Which is to say, I'd prefer _not_ to revisit what/why I am doing this. 17:04:23 This morning I figured out the source of my conundrum here http://paste.lisp.org/+2KH9 17:04:29 However, I'm still not understanding what to do about it. 17:04:39 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:04:39 I'm encountering a problem wrt to #\TAB and adjustment of the index when a "#x9" token is encountered. 17:04:43 I pasted some revised code which illustrates the problem: http://paste.lisp.org/+2KH9/2 17:04:57 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:04:58 I'd like to understand and avoid this problem in future code. If anyone can help, I'd very much appreciate insight as to what I've done wrong. 17:06:27 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:24 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:07 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:55 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-tunryglbplsybjqu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:17 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has left #lisp 17:10:29 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:11:21 -!- rvncerr_ [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:11:35 rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has joined #lisp 17:11:56 I forgot to add examples of what I am finding problematic, now here: http://paste.lisp.org/+2KH9/3 17:12:14 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12:24 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:30 -!- chopwood [~chopwood@c-24-63-111-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:14:12 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:40 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:15:00 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:15:54 what a terrible code! 17:16:01 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:16:20 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:22 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.53] has joined #lisp 17:16:45 stassats: I can't meet your standards of excellence w/out your help... 17:17:01 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-101.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17:09 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:19 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:35 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:19:56 mon_key: it finds #xc before #x9 and skips over it 17:21:16 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:21:57 stassats: Thank you! 17:22:42 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 17:23:15 -!- silenius [~silenus@p5DDBA79D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:27 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@static-195-114-183-51.devs.futuro.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:27:38 mon_key: see http://paste.lisp.org/display/119853#4 17:28:02 mon_key: character names are just not standardized, apart from for a few of semi-standard ones. 17:28:07 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:36 And even those, they're standardized AFAIK only for input. Eg. #\return --> #\newline or #\linefeed --> #\newline 17:28:36 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:28:58 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:29:04 pjb: thank you very much for your help. 17:29:24 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:24 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:29:36 mon_key: and other wise, nothing says that the char-code should match ASCII codes. 17:30:07 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 17:30:37 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.195] has joined #lisp 17:30:40 Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:19 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:32:39 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:32:49 mon_key: to test whether #\Tab is implemented, I'd use (ignore-error (with-standard-io-syntax (read-from-string "#\\Tab"))) ; I wouldn't rely on NAME-CHAR. 17:32:49 so only "Newline" and "Space" are standardardized character names as per 13.1.7? 17:32:55 Yes. 17:33:19 OK. 17:33:30 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043139062.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 17:33:38 And once you've tested a semi-standard character name is available, you can map eg. \t --> #\Tab (with your own reader macro for #\"). 17:34:10 didn't some package specify such stuff portably? 17:34:13 but using `ignore-errors' of course :) 17:34:20 mon_key: I don't like it because it uses strings for structured data.. but if I would go that path, I would write a parser that at least allows escaping, not simple token search-replace.. also, check out cl-interpol 17:34:26 OR, your reader macro may generate vectors of bytes encoding the characters with specifically ASCII (or ISO-8859-1 or UTF-8). 17:34:49 but I guess if your purpose is to read emacs-lisp sources, using the native CL characters is what you will want. 17:35:31 p_l|backup: Probably. Babel and other packages may help dealing with encodings and characters. 17:35:59 and I wouldn't call it concat ... 17:36:11 mon_key: http://paste.lisp.org/display/119853#5 here's a quick sketch of how i would write it 17:36:22 adeht: yes, cl-interpol has done all of this for me. but as pjb suggests longterm TRT is to use only the native CL stuff :) 17:36:44 If wearing a hairshirt makes you feel better. 17:37:12 stassats: I see you left the manual expansion of alexandria:alist-hash-table :) 17:37:54 mon_key: and fixing the bugs is left as an exercise to the reader 17:38:48 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-168-33.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:38:55 chopwood [~chopwood@c-24-63-111-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:51 stassats: Thanks for your example. Of course (as always) I will assume if left to your own devices your implementation would be _much_ more clever and elegant than the simple-minded cruft you've adapted in my stead! 17:41:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@68-058.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:43:30 stassats: bugs like "##x9"? :) 17:43:48 mon_key: then i would determine the task as being unworthy and wouldn't do it all 17:43:58 I would use an input string stream for this 17:44:02 adeht: well, it's a sketch of an idea 17:45:17 tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:17 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-168-33.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:45:28 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-8b92e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 17:46:02 pkhuong: which is the hairshirt? the native CL stuff or cl-interpol? 17:46:49 hi 17:47:12 please is there anyone interested in join us to develop a circuit simulator 17:47:15 thanks 17:47:33 how much do you pay? 17:47:43 nothing :) 17:47:55 is a lot 17:48:01 that's not very interesting 17:48:58 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@78-1-185-134.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57:09 cheezus [~Adium@75.119.248.180] has joined #lisp 17:58:21 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:44 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 18:01:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 18:01:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:02:33 Ragnaroek [5b0c292e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.41.46] has joined #lisp 18:02:47 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:03:20 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 18:04:07 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 18:04:32 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A49BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:05:40 jdz [~jdz@host111-15-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:06:09 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:58 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-51-60.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:08:49 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:09:40 tritchey_ [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:40 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:40 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 18:10:11 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.231.88] has joined #lisp 18:10:51 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 18:12:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-247.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:12:54 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:17:52 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:18:31 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:19 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:54 urandom__ [~user@p548A3579.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:41 jikanter [~jordan@66.146.192.40] has joined #lisp 18:23:01 -!- tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:23:51 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:28 hugod__ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:24:53 tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 18:25:04 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441327.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:24 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:47 stassats: only fame and glory 18:27:23 Only speculative fame and glory. 18:27:25 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@122.161.37.85] has quit [Quit: See you in another life.] 18:27:55 AndIrc__ [~android@210.sub-174-253-153.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:02 jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:04 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:29:22 -!- AndIrc__ [~android@210.sub-174-253-153.myvzw.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29:49 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:30:24 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:33 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-68-221.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:31:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@117.28.12.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:31:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-71-40.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:32:45 fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-238-31.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:33:40 i guess it's better than flame and gory 18:33:57 -!- hugod__ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod__] 18:34:17 -!- rread [~rread@c-98-234-218-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rread] 18:34:24 hugod__ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440571.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:35:06 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 18:35:10 froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:31 jesusito [~user@219.pool85-49-239.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:35:31 Unless you need to toughen your skin. 18:35:47 is there a good way of suppressing the "generic function FOO is being modified, but has already been called" message that clisp insists on spewing? 18:36:30 eek http://clisp.cons.org/ ist tot! 18:36:49 use clisp.org 18:37:01 froydnj: (setf custom:*suppress-check-redefinition* t) 18:37:04 or better, www.sbcl.org 18:37:36 froydnj: and/or (setf clos::*enable-clos-warnings* nil), can't remember which one 18:40:25 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 18:40:51 Are there things CLISP does better than SBCL? 18:41:09 bootstrap from a C compiler 18:41:15 bignum arithmetic, I think. 18:41:20 -!- tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:41:57 be small 18:42:18 be more portable... in certain ways 18:42:20 Not allow MIT-LOOP-ism 18:42:22 they can also integrate religious ascii art, which sbcl sucks at 18:42:23 (that code still burns me) 18:42:24 <_8david`> is "bignum arithmetic" still true? 18:42:25 tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 18:43:00 Stallman-compatible :) 18:43:00 _8david`: I think it is. 18:43:08 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-4a5978f2.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:11 kenanb: "kitten of death" hardly compares. 18:43:20 <_8david`> ok. so still faster, just less so than in the past? 18:43:35 _8david`: That's my impression. I haven't measured lately. 18:43:43 fe[nl]ix: thanks 18:43:47 Xach: :) 18:43:48 CLISP wins at controversial startup screens, I think. 18:44:01 and readline. 18:44:03 oh, the menorah and kitten are just part of an arms race at being vaguely unnerving at startup to new users? 18:44:16 That's weird because I seem to remember CLISP was quite slow compared to SBCL because it's using bytecode... 18:44:38 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:59 afaik CLISP also has a gui, if the ascii menorah isn't satisfying enuf for you, you can always use the gui to see it in high res splash screen 18:46:03 Hexstream: clisp uses gmp for bignum arithmetic. if bignum arithmetic dominates the runtime of your problem, clisp might be faster than sbcl in that case. 18:49:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-71-40.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:49:45 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.146] has quit [Quit: Offline] 18:50:35 _dev0_ [~dev@c-24-16-28-215.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:47 i guess most of CLISP user base consists of newbies thinking CLISP being the Common LISP. but still, it doesn't seem like a bad implementation at all 18:52:41 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:54:20 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:55:02 That seems plausible to me, I started with CLISP too before I learned just a few days later that #lisp was all about SBCL SBCL SBCL and that if I wanted to get good support I should use SBCL. 18:55:27 (Can't say I regret that at all!) 18:56:17 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.231.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:57:49 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:57:51 heh, starting with CLISP is better than with GCL D: 18:58:21 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:26 Hexstream: CCL user representin'. 18:59:30 Taggnostr2 [~x@dyn57-215.yok.fi] has joined #lisp 18:59:52 Yeah, well I don't know what the state of CCL on #lisp was when I started, back in 2006. 19:00:14 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:29 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.188] has joined #lisp 19:00:39 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.164] has joined #lisp 19:00:59 I'm pretty sure clisp does not use gmp, but something that is just as fast. 19:01:19 it's hand-rolled, but better so than SBCL's. 19:01:29 rtoym: Ok, thanks. 19:02:03 I think Bruno wrote it, probably long before gmp existed. Maybe. 19:03:04 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:06:31 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-168-33.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:11:26 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:11:31 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:57 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:14:04 GMP is afaik supported on ECL 19:14:15 yep 19:15:33 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-168-33.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:17:01 dkasak [~dkasak@78-1-185-134.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:19:19 license contamination may be an issue for some, tho 19:19:36 oh, nope, it's lgpl; less scary 19:19:46 LGPL. 19:19:48 right 19:19:59 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:21:25 IIRC, gmp was one of the main reasons for LGPL. 19:21:42 *rsynnott* was thinking of readline 19:21:54 there was a bit of drama with clisp and readline and stallman 19:22:04 rtoym: actually, it started with (g)libc which started "library exception" 19:22:36 unless you're talking about using LGPL in ECL ;) 19:26:01 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:28:50 why does the hyperspec show (fbound 'nth-value) returning false? 19:28:56 er fboundp 19:29:06 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_fbound.htm#fboundp 19:29:25 -!- mattdp [Bahrain@oldwww4.internection.com] has quit [] 19:29:47 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:55 p_l|backup: Could be. There was some controversy about using gmp in closed source code, so maybe it was already LGPL by then. 19:30:28 mon_key: nth-value is not a function. 19:30:57 returns => T in both sbcl and clisp 19:31:08 Xach: macros are also fbound 19:31:11 mon_key: examples are not normative. 19:31:39 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:31:40 ilmari: I believe that's by coincidence, not specification. 19:31:57 nope it's by spec, see /fbound/ 19:32:00 Xach: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#fbound 19:32:04 "The names of macros and special operators are fbound, but the nature and type of the object which is their value is implementation-dependent." 19:32:26 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:32:37 Ok, thanks. 19:32:54 *Xach* upgrades opinion to "bug in spec" 19:33:39 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-92-4-220.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:34:11 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:17 tcr1: Say, is there something I can do to get the cmucl fix into named-readtables? 19:34:51 carlocci [~nes@93.37.177.55] has joined #lisp 19:35:15 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:36:05 -!- Bronsa is now known as Bronsa\dinner 19:36:25 rtoym: I can let you be added as a project member 19:36:59 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-eu1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:37:49 Xach: ilmari: thanks. 19:37:55 tcr1: Uh, well, I'd rather not. I don't plan on doing anything more with named-readtables, other than use it. :-) 19:41:10 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:39 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-168-33.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:54 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:44:02 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.103] has joined #lisp 19:45:39 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:51:51 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.188] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:54:20 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:26 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:32 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:56:58 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:58:09 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:10 p_l|backup: bah, I broke the VM while trying to package it up, and I can't get it back in order due to VBox weirdness 19:59:20 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:14 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:01:28 -!- erk [~MrEd@about/apple/iPod/BeZerk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:14 mathrick: can you send me a tarball of the relevant files (through some place?) I could try to fix & clean it 20:02:17 -!- Bronsa\dinner is now known as Bronsa 20:03:26 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.188] has joined #lisp 20:05:02 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75.119.248.180] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:05:29 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:06:58 keyvan1 [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:49 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 20:08:03 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:08:30 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-103-115.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:09:17 (that is, as long as I get the disk image file I should be able to rebuild it) 20:09:43 -!- Liera [~Liera@123.21.157.152] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:09:58 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:11:58 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-33-230.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 20:12:03 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.231.88] has joined #lisp 20:12:16 -!- Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:13:01 hi 20:17:43 cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:13 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-168-33.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:20:40 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:32 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:22:21 -!- Jacke [jacke@valhalla.bofh.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:40 -!- hugod__ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440571.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:26:29 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:28:40 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:29:05 Jacke [jacke@valhalla.bofh.org] has joined #lisp 20:30:14 hugod__ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440588.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:32:08 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:35 easyE: ping 20:38:11 p_l|backup: they're pretty damn huge, which is why I wanted to clean up in the first place 20:38:24 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:29 that is, the compressed disk image is 1.9G 20:41:26 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@81.193.38.201] has joined #lisp 20:43:21 Guest82464 [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:04 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:47:33 wrac [5e28674d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.40.103.77] has joined #lisp 20:48:09 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:49:31 is there something like an executable hyperspec? i.e., runnable tests verify the spec? 20:49:46 chopwood: There is a partial test suite for that. 20:50:05 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:05 http://common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test/ has some info 20:50:06 often I would prefer to look at the code then wade through the paragraphs 20:50:13 thanks 20:50:19 chopwood: I recommend learning how to parse its prose. 20:50:46 well I know how to parse it -- it's a matter what's faster and more accurate. code doesn't lie. 20:50:53 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.188] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:51:14 That hasn't been my experience. 20:51:16 chopwood: you're wrong 20:51:18 chopwood: True but often the specific is tested rather than the general. That's at least one thing worth keeping in mind. 20:51:32 Okay, also what Xach and fe[nl]ix said. :) 20:51:51 I didn't mean to imply the spec is inaccurate -- it's just nice to see code with it. 20:52:40 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:52:44 not like I can't google for it elsewhere, but an "official" test suite is a nice concept 20:53:15 There is no official test suite. 20:53:31 right, but that doesn't mean it's not a nice concept 20:54:31 I'm surprised it doesn't exist by now -- all CL implementations would run it to verify themselves. 20:55:05 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:11 chopwood: Code generally won't tell you what behaviors are undefined. That's something the hyperspec does pretty well. 20:55:18 What pfdietz did was a lot of work. And it's not simply a technical act, but a political one as well. 20:55:39 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:55:42 TeMPOraL [~user@188.147.173.133.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:56:40 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:49 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:57:02 astoon [~astoon@109.188.224.121] has joined #lisp 20:57:04 Like, if code handles situation X in way Y, is Y the only acceptable way? Or is behavior Y only incidental and wasn't specifically thought about? Or is behavior Y deliberate and thought better than alternate behavior Z? 20:57:19 Hexstream: so what? does that make pfdietz's ansi test is forlorn? 20:57:36 *mean 20:57:49 Just saying that no, code isn't necessarily more precise than prose. 20:58:18 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:58:42 Hexstream: usually it is. 20:58:47 chopwood: henry bakers metacircular paper might be a good read 20:58:57 Hexstream: The problem is even that usually it is TOO precise! 20:59:01 chopwood: it shows how to implement various bits of CL in CL itself 20:59:11 It depends. It's certainly the case that code tells you more accurately what the code actually does than prose ;P 20:59:44 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:59:50 Hexstream: do you have tests for loopless? 20:59:50 pjb: reminds me of mccarthy's comment about arc at ilc 20:59:58 none are in github 21:00:01 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.47.189] has joined #lisp 21:00:05 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:27 chopwood: I'm aware of multiple deficiencies in my development process and total lack of tests is one of them. 21:01:55 that's like a carpenter saying, "I'm aware that I don't use nails, yes, that's a deficiency in my building process." 21:02:12 not really 21:02:14 pjb: Code being "too precise" can be seen as a lack of precision in specifying what alternate behaviors would have been acceptable, and what bits "really matter" about the code and which don't and are subject to change. 21:02:44 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:03:59 chopwood: It's possible to write code without tests. Not saying it's a "best practice" or advisable, but the nail analogy is inappropriate. 21:04:25 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffecd3.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 21:04:29 Hexstream: once you get into the habit of writing tests, you'll realize that you're wrong. 21:04:32 just sayin' 21:04:45 you can't judge until you do that 21:04:46 I do plan to have tests someday, but I tend to do my "meta-projects" in batch and I'm not at the "make tests for everything" meta-project just yet. 21:04:47 it's possible to make thing without nails useing pegs 21:04:52 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 21:05:15 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:54 -!- Jacke [jacke@valhalla.bofh.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:07:03 pjb: reminds me of mccarthy's comment about arc at ilc <-- which was ...? 21:07:24 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:07:54 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:08:16 mathrick: Paul Graham explained that the arc implementation would also be the specification, and "At the conference, John McCarthy pointed out that a function to invert a matrix might be better described by writing "inverts a matrix" than by giving the source." 21:08:19 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host55-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:08:36 Bronsa [~brace@host55-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:08:39 wise words 21:08:41 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.147.173.133.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:09:17 not to mention that more than one language has learnt the painful way why conflating the two is not necessarily the best idea 21:09:39 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:10:05 Jacke [jacke@valhalla.bofh.org] has joined #lisp 21:10:15 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:49 Here's the thing: I'm hopelessly NIH so I'll only write lots of tests if I write and use my own testing framework, but to build a good flexible framework I need to see the big picture of testing, and for that I need enough different projects so I can analyze what would work nicely. 21:11:43 Of course I'm aware I need to start small and that I won't find the best solutions immediately just by looking at my projects, but I'll at least have some direction and more motivation. 21:14:50 -!- jesusito [~user@219.pool85-49-239.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 21:15:25 Hexstream: I'm painfully aware of NIH, but did you try fiveam ? 21:15:35 that's a very good test framework 21:16:36 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:58 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host55-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:17:59 Hexstream: that's a pretty lame excuse. it's not difficult to convert tests from one framework to another. in the meantime, your code is messed up because there's no focus to it. that sounds harsh, but it's true. code is fucked without tests. 21:18:03 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:16 Bronsa [~brace@host55-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:18:39 once you get into the habit of writing a failing test before fixing something, it'll be obvious 21:18:42 The only situation where I use a third-party library is if the functionality provided is too far beyond my current abilities to implement, too time-intensive to implement, too far outside my areas of interest or a combination of these. A testing framework is not in one of these categories, so any third-party library won't do, no matter what the quality is ;P 21:19:03 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:19:23 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:19:29 mathrick: ok, I'll try building a VM out of Debian Etch... 21:20:20 Hexstream: dude! Not enought time in your life to reinvent the wheel, use as many libraries as possibl and you join each little community so you can contribute. So many unwritten libraries to be wasting time on a testing framework or anything else already done for that matter. 21:20:24 chopwood: It doesn't sound harsh, it sounds like a misguided overgeneralization. You may be like that, but not everyone is. 21:21:26 Hexstream: as I said, you're not in a position to know until you start writing tests. chicken and egg. 21:21:49 you need to know before you can know. 21:22:05 pers: I often end up with a much better wheel, or at least a wheel that suits me much better than any off-the-shelf solution would. And it often teaches me great insight about wheel engineering. 21:23:33 chopwood: You're a bit pushy IMHO ;P Your opinion has been duly noted, no need to restate it again and again in slightly different ways. 21:23:35 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-111-196.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:24:01 Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:31 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-133-247.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:26:09 Hexstream: it's not an opinion. just sayin'. I hope you'll seriously consider changing that view, and not because you think it's my opinion. 21:26:12 Hexstream: Sure, but you could get similar (or better) growth forging new paths. Plus the biggest drawbacks are that you are not contributing to the community or learning to work with other people. 21:26:40 There are many benefits in "owning the whole stack" that offset the "reinventing the wheel" expense. Benefits such as being able to identify and fix "cross-layer" issues. 21:27:54 Hexstream: the TATFT meme dies hard. 21:28:03 pers: What makes you think I'm not forging new paths or contributing to the community? 21:28:29 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.224.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:28:31 TATFT? 21:29:06 http://smartic.us/2008/08/15/tatft-i-feel-a-revolution-coming-on/ 21:29:33 duko [~cdepauw@bootes.dreamhost.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:35 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:04 Ah, Test All The Fucking Time. That article didn't actually even say it meant that :/ 21:32:40 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html "However, even though CLtL2 stresses the fact that the order of evaluation of the arguments in a function call is not defined...". Huh. I guess that was standardized pretty late in the game? 21:32:55 Hexstream: such is the strength of the meme. 21:32:59 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:33:09 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:20 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host55-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:34:59 also, general question: Do all lisp implementations build the condition system on top of catch/throw and dynamic variables? 21:35:19 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:35:35 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:49 Hexstream: Yea, your right. Not implying that, just that there are already established testing frameworks and the time your spend on Hexstrems-magic-testing-framework is not nearly as useful to the community as other things. 21:36:36 sykopomp: Hm? It's tagbody+go not catch+throw I'd think 21:36:38 like fixing bugs in sbcl :p 21:36:53 "emulating unwind-protect and special variables" is quite interesting. 21:37:20 The only situation where I use a third-party library is if the functionality provided is too far beyond my current abilities to implement, too time-intensive to implement, too far outside my areas of interest or a combination of these. <-- that sounds like a rather warped outlook 21:37:35 tcr1: Oh? My understanding of reading through the CCL implementation was that it uses catch/throw. I couldn't find the place in SBCL where the actual jump happens. 21:37:35 mathrick: It may because it is. 21:37:39 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:37:58 It may be because it is* 21:38:05 I use third party libraries whenever they do what I want them to do, or close enough to what I want them to do that I don't feel like re-doing it better 21:38:21 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-116-48.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:38:28 so, I often write glue code ;) 21:38:30 tcr1: see M-. signal in ClozureCL. 21:38:34 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-172-122.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:39:14 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:31 then again, I guess catch/throw and tagbody/go can do each others' work easily enough (see above link) 21:40:07 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl5-16-62.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:40:15 I wonder if there's any CL implementations that use something other than the continuation-pair trio. 21:40:16 -!- hugod__ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440588.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:40:40 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:42 i see a few folks who may have maintained the package LOCAL-TIME...time for questions? :) 21:41:03 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:15 pers: That sounds commandeering. I can decide for myself when and how I'm willing to contribute to the community, thank you. I think given my skillset and way of working I'm much more potentially valuable by working on my original projects than helping third-party projects. (Though I'm seriously considering contributing for SBCL beyond simple issue reports.) 21:41:18 hargettp: no need to meta-question. question! 21:41:18 <_8david`> sykopomp: no, not late as in "after CLtL2", so the statement is incorrect. CLtL2 is up-to-date on left-to-right order of argument evaluation. 21:41:24 lol 21:42:00 I have a package that depends on LOCAL-TIME....and it appears there is a LispWorks bug in LOCAL-TIME that causes pain for CCL...or vice versa.. :) 21:42:18 my goal is to have my package work just fine on something other than SBCL :) 21:42:19 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:42:26 <_8david`> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node61.html 21:42:32 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:41 Hexstream: No worries man. I'm sure your cool. Yes for SBCL contribution! Also, you may be able to figure out something better in the testing world, dunno. 21:42:51 tcr1: how can you use TAGBODY/GO for non-local exits? They work lexically 21:42:59 pers: *you're 21:43:11 tcr1: Around? 21:43:16 mathrick: Closures? 21:43:51 TAGBODY tags have dynamic extent, I think. 21:43:53 does anyone have quick recall to where the clhs/spec errata (official or otherwise might be located? 21:44:05 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:44:06 Like for BLOCKs. 21:44:28 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_boundp.htm#boundp 21:44:30 mathrick: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html has an implementation of catch/throw in terms of tagbody/go and special variables. 21:44:38 rtoym: yeah I really have no time for named-readtables for the time being :-) 21:44:51 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-171-188.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:02 e.g. wrt "The function `bound' determines only whether a symbol has a value in... " 21:45:09 hargettp: you are trying to run lispworks and ccl at the same time? i don't understand how a lispworks bug could break clozure. 21:45:17 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 21:45:26 *sykopomp* wonders if there's any documents on building catch/throw, block/return/from and tagbody/go in terms of delimited continuations built by shift/reset. 21:45:31 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:45:43 sykopomp: henry baker? 21:46:01 oconnors: well, it turns out LispWorks throws an error when it encounters #_, but CCL uses that as a macro dispatching character...specifically as a shortcut to call a foreign function 21:46:09 hargettp: if you want any help, you have to explain your problem properly. None of us are prophets or clairvoyants 21:46:21 mathrick: well aware of that :) 21:46:42 sykopomp: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 21:46:51 was hoping someone would pipe up when I asked for maintainers of LOCAL-TIME :) 21:46:58 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-170-46.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:46:58 mon_key: yes. 21:47:09 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632570.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:47:14 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:47:17 mon_key: it's not a function it's a predicate and it's not bound but boundp. 21:47:30 hargettp: just state your question. If there's anybody capable and willing to help, they will speak up 21:47:39 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632570.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 21:47:54 hargettp: the maintainers are not necessarily the helpers. 21:47:55 mathrick: I'm off to paste...no shorter way :) 21:48:19 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279632570.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:48:21 pjb: Maybe I should have stated it as "Obv. this is a typo... Where can i find a semi-authoritative list of these things?" 21:48:44 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:50:02 mon_key: On cliki, there's a page about that, IIRC. 21:50:45 Notice that you could publish a diff to let people patch their local copy of CLHS. 21:50:55 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:33 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 21:53:05 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:53:13 pjb: Its already listed here: http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications 21:53:13 hargettp: lines 1066-1077 of the source deals with that: ;; this whole voodoo here is because of a bug in LispWorks, namely its reader chokes on #_ inside a #+ccl 21:53:20 do you have an old version of the library? 21:53:32 occonors: no, I have tha tversion...but check out: http://paste.lisp.org/display/119885 21:53:51 btw, does LW Enterprise 64bit also covers 32bits? 21:54:06 occonore: http://paste.lisp.org/display/119885 21:54:12 timack [~tim@hlfx64-1-9.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 21:55:03 it seems to be that CCL is not happy calling local-time:now during instance intialization...sometimes 21:55:32 Good morning everyone! 21:55:55 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:21 hargettp: sometimes? i just loaded your example and it works fine. 21:56:35 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:56 what ccl version are you using? 21:57:00 good morning beach 21:57:06 beach: morn' 21:57:09 oconorre: well, it's failing pretty consistently for me...altho sometimes if i call lcoal-time:now *before* I instantiate 'foo, all is well...so odd 21:57:20 1.6, downloaded this morning....x86 for mac 21:58:11 oconore: that specific example has failed most of the afternoon 21:58:24 -!- jdz [~jdz@host111-15-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:58:39 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:00:00 I tossed the call stack onto the paste, too, fwiw 22:00:14 -!- Ragnaroek [5b0c292e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.41.46] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:00:59 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:01:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:02:06 sykopomp: just read the scrollback. sorry for duplicating redundantly. 22:02:24 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:04:10 -!- jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has quit [Ping timeout: 624 seconds] 22:05:36 I'm asking my question in the #CCL channel too...so weird 22:06:29 trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-069-140-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:44 ah, yeah, that fails for me too. 22:06:52 isn't that odd? 22:07:17 I even ran that right in CCL's REPL (rather than SLIME+EMACS), same issue....but right after error, could call (local-time:now) at repL, no problem 22:07:33 and follow that again with a (make-instance 'foo)....undefined error again 22:09:10 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:54 cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-4a5978f2.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:59 pabst [~anonymous@76.14.65.25] has joined #lisp 22:13:29 hargettp: if you patch your local-time.lisp file on line 1071 with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute), the error goes away. I think it has to do with how the ffi works. You should probably submit a patch to the author as well, although maybe there is a better way to do it that isn't coming to me. 22:13:50 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:13:58 (of course you need to close that form after the (ccl::rlet ...) form) 22:14:20 assuming it works for you too 22:14:27 oconnore: that makes some sense....I noticed that replacing (local-time:now) with (eval `(local-time:now)) avoids the compiler warning (of course, becuase the call isn't compiled at the time of class compilation)....and make-instance works fine in that case 22:14:41 -!- win2000user [~user@wikinews/Gryllida] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:14:42 I'll try it thank you! 22:15:58 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 22:16:44 oconnore: would you start that (eval-when @ 1071, or around the defun %get-current-time, which for me starts @ 1051? 22:16:45 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:48 hargettp: i put it inside the #+(and ccl (not windows)) form. perhaps your way would work too. 22:19:24 oconnore: I think i'm going to take your suggestion and move on...works in SLIME+EMACS, now to test in CCL, SBCL, LispWorks, etc....and fire off to the author :) 22:20:33 sounds good! 22:20:59 oconnore: I spoke too soon...fails in CCL REPL in CCL IDE 22:22:19 -!- chopwood [~chopwood@c-24-63-111-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:23:30 oconnore: and no luck, regardless of whether eval-when @ 1071 or 1051....must be an issue of CCL FFI as you say 22:23:35 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 22:23:39 i don't know why that would be. i tested it in slime and on the command line. 22:23:40 *no luck with CCL REPL in IDE that is 22:23:53 oconnore: yep, SLIME is fine for me too 22:25:12 and I can't tell whether to pester the #CCL ppl as a bug, the LispWorks folk since it might be their original bug, or the local-time author LOL 22:25:13 TeMPOraL [~user@188.146.86.44.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:25:19 honestly, this whole thing is really a lispworks bug. the author should convert back to the #_ reader macro and send a bug report to lispworks. 22:25:41 yep, see that's what I'm thinking...LispWOrks started it, it woudl seem 22:25:54 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:05 -!- wrac [5e28674d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.40.103.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:26:12 I thought about messing with the readtable as a workaround on LispWorks....but not sure I like that 22:26:59 if you are going to put a workaround in your own code, you could probably just make sure the function has been evaluated before you define the class. 22:27:54 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:39 that doesn't fix it either: if I 1) restart REPL 2) load ql + local-time, 3) (local-time;now) 4) defclass....still get compiler warning on class definition 22:28:44 fun eh? :) 22:28:56 and all because I want my code to work on more CL's than just SBCL :) 22:29:05 fine though it is 22:29:25 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:29:34 what are you working on? 22:29:54 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:30:13 oconnore: the umpty-bazillionth HTML generation library....but it went into QL this week, and I'd like to start getting it reliable on other CLs 22:30:31 named? 22:30:35 hh-web-tags :) 22:30:41 I'm an engineer, not a marketer 22:30:42 :) 22:30:49 hehe, cool 22:30:52 win2000user [user@nx01.darkholdings.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:10 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:16 IIRC, the reason I'm using local-time at all is because I need to compare local filesystem times to the current time...and local-time handled all the timestamps portably 22:31:24 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-33-230.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:33:06 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-083-162.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:33:53 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 22:34:09 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:34:14 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:34:26 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:28 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 22:34:28 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 22:34:28 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 22:34:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-3.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:12 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.47.189] has quit [Quit: Offline] 22:35:42 Ralith_ [~ralith@d142-058-083-162.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:35:48 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-083-162.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 22:35:59 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:36:00 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 22:36:10 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:11 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 22:36:25 oconnore: thx again for the help; digging deeper into CCL FFI now :) 22:36:53 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 22:37:03 ok, no problem. good luck! 22:38:20 slime question: If one has an ASDF system that adds features that one might want to exercise with SLIME, is there some way to stuff the commands into the emacs side of SLIME at the same time one loads the system? 22:38:40 That is, we have interactive commands (this is a testing library) that we'd like to add to SLIME. 22:39:22 Koven [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:39:25 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:16 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:41:14 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:42:13 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:32 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@81.193.38.201] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:44:50 -!- keyvan1 [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:48 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:12 rpg: I think you basically need to make sure that in Emacs-Lisp you also load the ASDF system 22:48:25 enthymeme [~kraken@76.245.60.219] has joined #lisp 22:48:30 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-083-162.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:54 hargettp: I suppose that makes sense... 22:49:17 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-035.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 22:49:18 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:55 rpg: since SLIME does inject code into the Lisp process that loaded your ASDF system, then there is definitely SLIME code you could hook there....but if you want to hook what happens on the Emacs side of SLIME....dunno if there is a convention for getting that code across the wire and load 22:49:57 *loaded 22:49:58 -!- m1ngus1 [~Adium@tunnel-32-167.vpn.uib.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:50:41 m1ngus [~nmajo@mi061032.klientdrift.uib.no] has joined #lisp 22:50:45 hargettp: I think this is the general issue that TCR was getting at with editor-hints --- sometimes there are things that the CL side knows that it would like to tell to the elisp side. 22:51:18 rpg: v cool....but far beyond my SLIME knowledge :)( 22:51:20 :) 22:52:01 hargettp: I'm pretty much a novice --- I'm just trying to replace some stuff that I had been doing in ACL's top-level, since SB-ACLREPL isn't accessible in SLIME. 22:52:28 malbertife_ [~marcoalbe@bl11-212-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:52:45 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@70-35-37-146.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 22:54:01 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl5-16-62.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:54:01 -!- malbertife_ is now known as malbertife 22:54:32 phil_ [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-207.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:40 -!- phil_ [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-207.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:54:49 phil_ [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-207.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:14 -!- phil_ [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-207.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:55:20 hargettp_ [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-207.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:28 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-182-107.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:55:33 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:37 -!- hargettp_ [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-207.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:55:43 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-139-207.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:09 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:59:16 -!- cheezus [~Adium@75-119-248-180.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:29 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:00:33 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:54 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:01:28 -!- pers [~user@240.sub-75-193-49.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:28 rpg: eval'ing code from swank in emacs is possible, but needs to be enabled explicitly (security reasons) 23:01:40 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:02:35 mathrick: Yes, I imagine if we can come up with a set of plausible editor-hints, that will be better than throwing code over the wall to be executed, 23:03:43 btw, I don't like the way SLIME deals with it, it has zero granularity: it's either no code allowed, or all code allowed 23:05:09 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:06:29 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:18 -!- tsuru [~user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:08:14 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 23:11:28 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:43 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:12 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-190-238-31.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:44 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:51 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:18:25 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx64-1-9.ns.sympatico.ca] has left #lisp 23:18:32 timack [~tim@hlfx64-1-9.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:21:38 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.39] has joined #lisp 23:21:39 rasterba_ [~rasterbar@50.12.160.139] has joined #lisp 23:21:48 kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:37 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:22:48 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:23:16 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.148.80] has joined #lisp 23:23:35 -!- rasterba_ [~rasterbar@50.12.160.139] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:05 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 23:24:15 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:24:24 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:24:36 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:04 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:29 cheezus [~Adium@75.119.248.180] has joined #lisp 23:25:52 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-152-9.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:27:12 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:29:55 pers [~user@160.sub-75-198-203.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:51 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx64-1-9.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:39:10 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-168-33.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:41:27 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.231.88] has left #lisp 23:42:42 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.103] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:44:30 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.9.79.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:44:38 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:44:55 oudeis [~oudeis@201.171.208.228.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:11 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:46:35 pnq [~nick@ACA31D0B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:06 lemoinem [~swoog@79-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:56 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@201.171.208.228.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:50:01 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-212-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: malbertife] 23:51:04 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-095-035.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:36 vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.58.114.88.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:52:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53:04 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53:16 kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:07 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:56:23 oudeis [~oudeis@201.171.208.228.dsl.dyn.telnor.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:29 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:58:14 -!- kejsaren [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:58:17 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:46 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3579.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:13 Are there any known issues with reloading asd's and :pathname settings? I change a :pathname in an asd file, reload it, and try to 'load-op, but it keeps using the old incorrect path.