00:00:53 beach: I do and I very much appreciate it! 00:01:45 *beach* goes back to designing this interaction manager written in Common Lisp but which is in no way related to CLIM II or its possible successor. 00:02:17 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-86-213.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:03:35 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:08 -!- jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:04:09 sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:06:28 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-132-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:50 So, just to be sure I've gotten it; The standard says I can rely on the accessors and initargs if specified, but _not_ on there being a _slot_ which might be accessed or initialized? 00:07:29 Correct. And that the right design. Your applications should be designed the same way. 00:08:18 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 00:11:43 Think of it as: Every implementation detail exposed as part of the public interface is a liability. 00:12:44 -!- Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:16:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:18:02 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:52 Hexstream: Yes, I'm learning this lesson. 00:21:57 for future reference I guess this issue is applicable: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss077_w.htm 00:25:08 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:28:44 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:29:24 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:53 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 00:29:54 -!- pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:30:41 pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 00:30:41 -!- pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Changing host] 00:30:41 pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 00:32:46 -!- dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:33:01 dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:24 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:34:16 -!- talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:49 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:35:58 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:36:04 OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 00:36:07 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36:28 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A80F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:36:45 -!- nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36:50 nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has joined #lisp 00:38:19 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:38:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Changing host] 00:38:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 00:40:21 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.171] has joined #lisp 00:41:43 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:43:45 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 00:44:34 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:45:05 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 00:50:01 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 00:50:43 milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:46 pnq [~nick@172.164.46.83] has joined #lisp 00:55:14 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:56:03 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:16 nurv101_ [~nurv101@bl14-66-216.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:56:48 hey does anyone can answer me a question here about computer science? I'm trying to see if I can find someone with better understanding of tree algorithms 00:57:24 nurv101_: find a lisp angle 00:57:32 ok 00:57:54 does anyone here knows a tree diference algorithm? 00:58:07 e.g. 00:58:55 (a (b c)) ^ (a (b d)) -> (_ (_ d>)) 00:59:51 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 01:00:19 flyfish [~liuguangz@zz-12-6-a8.bta.net.cn] has joined #lisp 01:00:56 I /think/ there was a tree diff library on cliki once 01:01:06 no idea what the name was, try something obvious like "diff" 01:04:10 -!- pers [~user@114.sub-69-98-248.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:04:20 ok thanks 01:05:53 nurv101_: have a look at COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.LIST:TREE-DIFFERENCE 01:06:34 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 01:06:50 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:07:52 lovely package name. ;) 01:08:09 nurv101__ [~nurv101@bl14-66-216.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:08:11 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:08:23 -!- nurv101_ [~nurv101@bl14-66-216.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10:08 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:10:25 -!- nurv101__ [~nurv101@bl14-66-216.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10:31 yeah, completely unusabl without package hacks :P 01:10:38 nurv101_ [~nurv101@bl14-66-216.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:10:58 You can always add a nickname such as CESARUM, or use the whole package. 01:11:11 -!- prip [~foo@host15-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:11:19 Neither qualify as a hack. 01:12:35 pjb: yes, but I have certain level of dislike for writing extra packages just to cover it (or writing setup files that add the nicknames) 01:13:01 It's GPL, so you probably won't want to use it anyways. 01:13:08 hah, true 01:13:31 pjb: but unlike com.informatimago stuff, I'd like to use hu.dwim stuff :) 01:14:07 My name is Pascal Jacques Bourguignon. I'm used to long names. 01:14:23 it'd be cool if hierarchical packages were a widely implemented feature 01:14:35 NihilistDandy [~ND@173-166-32-113-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:38 foom: yes. Take the documentation from Allegro, and write a CDR! 01:14:47 I might even say "standard" but that gets people's panties in a knot. :) 01:15:57 foom: there's partial support (based around allegro stuff, I believe) here: http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/hax.html 01:16:14 p_l|backup: fyi, we have some of pjb's code in our codebase, so be nice to him... :) (it's the cl reader that we use to read and present cl code on dwim.hu) 01:16:20 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:17:27 *p_l|backup* wasn't aware he was coming off as (not (nice)) 01:17:49 http://www.tfeb.org/programs/lisp/hierarchical-packages.lisp 01:17:54 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:18:17 -!- sako is now known as sako|AFK 01:18:32 hmm... I'm not sure, but I think the same reader was suggested to me recently regarding CL sandboxing :) 01:18:43 (works in lispworks and cmucl only, apparently) 01:19:06 foom: the code for CMUCL shouldn't be too hard to adapt to SBCL 01:19:22 That said in practice, I don't find long package names to be a problem, because either you use only a few qualified symbol from the package, or you use the whole package. 01:19:30 cmucl has had support for hierarchical packages for quite some time now. 01:20:09 that hack says as much "I believe CMUCL 18d will have its own hierarchical packages support" 01:21:29 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:03 Package relative nicknames (?) would also be interesting. Symbolics had something like that, but I can't find the full documentation for that. 01:22:29 Oh, I was assuming that would come as part of the same feature 01:22:39 But obviously it's not really the same thing, indeed. 01:23:52 But yea, that's actually the feature you need when dealing with long-named packages. 01:24:00 dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-103-147.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:59 prip [~foo@host145-123-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:25:46 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:27:08 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:50 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:01 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:05 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-23-137-233.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:29:35 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:30:23 snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 01:30:45 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:55 I had a partial implementation at one point, but Carl suggested if we're going to do that we should do the whole symbolics thing. 01:31:53 Suddenly, a reason to run Genera 01:32:07 "figure out how to port certain functionality" :D 01:32:48 mathrick: ping 01:32:59 pong? 01:33:16 Heh. Basic relative nicknames was not hard. The whole thing is hard because I don't know how it's supposed to work. 01:33:33 Ralith_ [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:49 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:33:49 mathrick: Did you manage to run OpenGenera including "Save World"? 01:35:34 yes 01:36:18 mathrick: can you write a list of software versions used or something like that? I'd try to set it up on a VM. 01:36:53 -!- prip [~foo@host145-123-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:37:11 p_l|backup: I can send you the VM, I just need to clean it up a bit 01:37:20 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-8-91.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:37:21 Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-32-8-91.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:31 oh, even better 01:37:38 but it's basically xubuntu 7.10 + nfs packages from 6.06 01:38:03 it ran out of the box, more or less 01:38:07 nice 01:39:02 *p_l|backup* thinks of putting this into an image one could use with OG2 cd 01:40:02 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 01:44:32 gko [~gko@111.82.70.208] has joined #lisp 01:50:53 Guest92535 [~foo@host235-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:51:40 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 01:55:00 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 01:55:23 If you just want a basic 'is this thing contained in this list or is it not?', is it better to use find or member? 01:55:54 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@173-166-32-113-newengland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: break] 01:56:58 rwallace: either is fine, until you want to find NIL 01:57:15 then you probably want to use either POSITION or MEMBER (: 01:57:48 Right - I'm trying to make a decision on a better basis than flipping a coin :-) there is no difference in efficiency, probably? 01:58:10 I wouldn't think so - but the only way to find out is to profile 01:58:10 Maybe I should just always use member on the grounds that it will be necessary to use it if and when I want to find nil, then 01:58:30 if you don't profile, it proably doesn't matter how fast this is anyway (: 01:59:00 also, both are pretty much certainly O(n) anyway 01:59:16 *rwallace* nods. I hope to have enough functionality to start profiling in a few weeks. Though I'm already pretty sure any difference between find and member won't show up :-) 01:59:30 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:00:46 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03:55 -!- nurv101_ [~nurv101@bl14-66-216.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: nurv101_] 02:05:44 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:58 -!- timack [~tim@142.177.12.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:08:56 cjoelrun [~user@cpe-72-177-201-242.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:12:09 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 02:12:32 ASau [~user@93-80-218-22.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 02:14:29 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:19:01 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-214-20.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:19:02 tronador__ [~guille@190.253.157.83] has joined #lisp 02:19:45 /join #zenoss 02:20:05 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:20:05 -!- tronador__ is now known as tronador_ 02:21:17 syntaxman [wade@funtoo/user/syntaxman] has joined #lisp 02:22:36 I'm googling for information about running Mailman mail lists (python cgi) under hunchentoot. 02:23:17 I don't find anything, though. Anyone have a pointer to docs? 02:23:26 syntaxman: not sure that makes too much sense... I would think you're better served by using nginx or apache for that 02:23:32 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-213-36.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 02:23:33 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:24:11 I guess there is http://cyrusharmon.org/projects?project=hunchentoot-cgi but that probably hasn't been tested too much 02:24:39 antifuchs: I just didn't want to install another httpd. nginx doesn't do cgi. I was going to put nginx in front of hunchentoot already. 02:24:52 A third httpd seems annoying. 02:24:54 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:07 what, no cgi? that can't beright 02:25:09 -!- cjoelrun [~user@cpe-72-177-201-242.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:25:31 maybe you can use fastcgi with mailman? 02:25:38 nginx probably supports that 02:26:31 -!- Landr [~vser@78-22-150-160.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:35 antifuchs: worth checking out, anyway. 02:27:09 (fastcgi would probably be the less insane choice I guess (-:) 02:33:57 -!- gko [~gko@111.82.70.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:35:46 afk 02:37:05 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-62-139-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:19 evening 02:38:58 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.66] has joined #lisp 02:39:58 antifuchs: nginx wiki indicates that you have to setup fcgiwrap to handle connections to fastcgi. 02:40:28 So, it can be done with some fenagling. 02:40:59 Hmm.. I've never spelled fenagling before. 02:41:05 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.5.80] has joined #lisp 02:41:50 -!- Guest92535 [~foo@host235-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:42:29 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:42:41 finagling 02:44:04 you don't have "finagle a bagle" where you live? 02:44:29 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.115] has joined #lisp 02:47:04 gko [~gko@111.82.70.208] has joined #lisp 02:48:01 cjoelrun [~user@cpe-72-177-201-242.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:26 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 02:53:54 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:37 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:51 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:56:05 Guest92535 [~foo@host175-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 02:57:15 dnolen_ [~davidnole@pool-96-224-28-127.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:48 sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:10 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 02:58:45 Are there any standard functions for 'for all' and 'there exists'? 02:59:14 leersog [~leers@c-68-40-9-146.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:17 -!- leers [~leers@c-68-40-9-146.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:59:17 -!- leersog is now known as leers 02:59:29 rwallace: EVERY / SOME 02:59:38 Thanks! 02:59:46 yw (: 03:00:05 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-68-161-103-147.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:00:05 -!- dnolen_ is now known as dnolen 03:02:18 -!- pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Quit: pabst] 03:03:32 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:05:29 -!- Guest92535 [~foo@host175-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:07:14 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:07:59 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:08:49 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:09:17 j_king [~jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:18 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:16:14 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 03:17:39 Guest92535 [~foo@host129-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 03:20:57 -!- cjoelrun [~user@cpe-72-177-201-242.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23:34 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:23:34 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 03:23:34 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:24:20 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:33:28 Landr [~vser@78-22-150-160.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 03:34:43 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@adsl-76-248-235-70.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 03:37:11 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:37:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:38:05 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.33.27.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:39:30 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 03:43:38 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:44:30 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:44:53 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:45:16 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:46:34 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.53] has joined #lisp 03:52:19 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:34 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:56:13 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:59:56 -!- sako|AFK is now known as sako 04:05:48 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 04:05:55 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:10:44 -!- rabite [~rabite@83.169.3.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14:26 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:05 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:24 icbh [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:16:13 i've set my sbcl to show all efficiency notes, and i'm wondering what it means when it says 'doing fixnum untagging' 04:16:29 i think i have everything declared as unsigned-byte 8 04:16:39 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:16:53 not unsigned-byte 04:16:58 (signed-byte 8) 04:17:29 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:17:58 mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has joined #lisp 04:18:07 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.71] has joined #lisp 04:18:22 kdas_ [~kdas@117.201.97.26] has joined #lisp 04:18:55 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:27:43 -!- kdas_ is now known as kushal 04:27:51 -!- kushal [~kdas@117.201.97.26] has quit [Changing host] 04:27:52 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:28:21 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:34:53 cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:36:05 -!- Guest92535 [~foo@host129-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:37:54 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:35 -!- Guest2201 [186730cd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.103.48.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:43:32 I'm trying to write using (with-open-file) in a CGI script. It works in the REPL; in the browser it gives an error as soon as I add a (with-open-file (foo "bar" :direction :output) nil) to the script. Is it some permission thing? 04:43:57 ("write" as in write to a file) 04:44:50 what is the error and what is the operating system 04:45:05 Internal Server Error, debian 04:45:32 IOW the same error as I get every time something is wrong with my scripts 04:45:58 well 04:46:06 a lot of the time file reads are a permissions thing 04:46:29 Reading works. If I change to :direction :input it's OK. 04:47:02 Hm I wonder if I should run the browser with sudo or something. 04:47:30 like a web browser? 04:47:47 yes 04:47:52 wouldn't the problem be coming from the server that is executing the cgi script 04:48:07 Eh, yes it would 04:48:10 -.-v 04:48:33 look in the web server's error log; there is probably a more detailed error message there 04:48:56 symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:58 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:21 Guest92535 [~foo@host222-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 04:51:14 The script is mentioned in the error log but I can't see any useful information. 04:52:47 Found no driver frame, bad address and cleanup incomplete. 04:53:42 gaidal: strace can be useful on occasion. 04:54:36 might also want to check what user the server is running under 04:55:36 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.66] has joined #lisp 04:55:53 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:56:41 Zhivago: strace on the web browser, then? I'm not familiar with this. 04:56:50 The_Jon_Smith: Trying to find out how to do that now. 04:57:03 Well, on the process that is confusing you. 04:57:20 You can attach it to the pid, induce the problem, and then see what is happening at the syscall level. 04:57:22 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:57:43 Sometimes seeing the most basic behaviour can be useful. 04:58:05 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:58:51 try ps -A 04:59:17 hmm sorry, no need users as well 04:59:52 Yeah I'm reading the man page for ps and trying to figure out how to filter by user 05:00:29 There's always grep :) 05:00:39 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.66] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 05:00:49 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.66] has joined #lisp 05:00:55 top 05:00:57 Well I can grep apache, but I don't know how to read the ps output :) 05:01:01 try typing top 05:01:17 Like, what Ss and S+ and so on mean 05:01:32 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.66] has quit [Client Quit] 05:01:40 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.66] has joined #lisp 05:02:04 No apache in top 05:02:10 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.66] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:02:15 Jubb_ [~ghost@129.21.86.66] has joined #lisp 05:02:31 -!- Jubb_ [~ghost@129.21.86.66] has quit [Client Quit] 05:02:48 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.66] has joined #lisp 05:04:00 Zhivago: So would I want to strace firefox, clisp or apache or... 05:04:35 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:44 type F x 05:04:52 (shift+F) 05:05:00 then 05:05:06 R 05:05:23 (shift+R) 05:05:36 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-39-233-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:31 R? For code size? 05:07:48 should reverse the sort 05:07:53 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-62-139-124.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:08:04 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 05:08:10 in top 05:08:13 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 05:08:17 Yeah, and apache ends up on top, user: www-data. 05:08:41 so need to figure out his permissions on the file maybe 05:08:50 I guess I'll try to chown the www folder. Is chown recursive? 05:09:26 Nvm. 05:13:50 -!- ymv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:13:59 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.18.223] has joined #lisp 05:14:43 ymv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has joined #lisp 05:15:48 Alright, it works when the file is owned by www-data. Guess someone needs to learn some unix. :) Thanks for your help! 05:17:17 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:19:08 np 05:20:24 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:38 Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.12] has joined #lisp 05:22:27 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:22:31 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:22:57 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 05:23:07 -!- Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:25:51 -!- Guest92535 [~foo@host222-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 05:26:36 Guest92535 [~foo@host222-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 05:29:34 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 05:35:47 -!- masonium [~user@ip72-211-205-4.oc.oc.cox.net] has left #lisp 05:37:40 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:37:53 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:05 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:42:20 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has left #lisp 05:42:31 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:34 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:48 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:45:42 -!- gko [~gko@111.82.70.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:45:54 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:18 By default, read-from-string throws an error on floating-point overflow. That can be disabled with ignore-errors, but is there a way to get it to return the appropriate floating-point infinity value instead? 05:46:40 gko [~gko@111.82.70.208] has joined #lisp 05:52:20 Does that error provide a restart? 05:52:44 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@204.14.152.118] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 05:53:36 I don't know - are you saying if it does, then I could write a handler that returns infinity instead? I can do that anyway by using ignore-errors and first assigning a default value, but I'm hoping... 05:54:04 To get read-from-string to give me the correct infinity or whatever resulting from the actual string passed, not just a default value 05:54:22 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-50-81.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:55:39 Well, if it provides a restart, then you could add a handler which transfers to that restart. 05:55:57 And that restart might allow you to provide a substitute value. 05:56:15 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:22 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.9.173] has joined #lisp 05:56:29 Right, but I'm not talking about _me_ providing the substitute value - I can do that with ignore-errors - I'm looking for a way to get read-from-string to provide the substitute value, 05:56:41 Because that's what has the information needed to figure out exactly what the right substitute value is 05:56:48 -!- longshot_ is now known as Guest71124 05:57:41 And assuming it's implemented in the obvious way, that would basically happen automatically if I could just make it not throw the error in the first place 05:57:46 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:58:01 Um, but you just said you want infinity as the substitute value for that case ... 05:58:04 -!- Guest92535 [~foo@host222-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:58:08 I don't think there's a portable way to do that. 05:58:15 Yes, but there's more than one kind of infinity in floating-point 05:58:36 In fact, cmucl doesn't signal overflow. It signals an error that the number is not representable. 05:59:11 atof is an example of the exactly correct behavior here - ah, there isn't any way? :( 05:59:55 I think cmucl should give a restart to allow the user to choose returning infinity. :-) 06:00:27 We just had that conversation :-) okay, is there a portable way to write floating-point infinity or NaN? 06:00:40 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-38-215.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:41 No. 06:00:54 ... :( 06:01:50 How would you write NaN anyway? There are lots of NaN's. 06:02:00 And presumably I can't compute it myself without the runtime engine crashing the way read-from-string does 06:02:26 well, in C I could at least pick one and cast the bit pattern 06:02:47 Depending on your lisp, it's pretty easy to get a certain NaN, if you can disable FP exceptions. 06:03:10 That's what I was hoping to do, but you can't disable fp exceptions? 06:03:10 atof in C? 06:03:16 Zhivago, yeah 06:03:17 atof has no error handling what-so-ever. 06:03:22 My meaning precisely 06:03:31 So, you just want garbage? 06:03:51 You can't disable fp exceptions portably, but many lisp's allow it somehow. 06:04:21 Zhivago, a lot of experts on numerical analysis spent an awful lot of time carefully designing the IEEE floating-point infinity and nan subsystems. If you believe those subsystems are garbage, feel free to take it up with the experts ;-) 06:05:02 rtoym, okay, thanks, I'll try checking in the documentation for the two I'm working with at the moment (clisp and sbcl) 06:05:55 set-floating-point-modes allows access to FP modes. In cmucl, and presumably it's still there in sbcl. 06:06:28 rwallace: And what does atof do with all of that? 06:06:34 Don't know about clisp. Not even sure if clisp handles infinities. 06:06:46 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:47 <_3b> clisp doesn't have NaN or infinity, so you can't even write it 'portably' in the 'can be portyed' sense :( 06:07:09 <_3b> (at least i think it didn't do infinities, i was only looking at NaN when i checked) 06:07:12 rtoym, ah, Google is finding some hits on that, thanks! 06:07:16 Oh, that's right -- atof doesn't handle errors ... 06:07:24 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-32-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:31 So, what does it do instead? 06:07:40 Zhivago, delegates to the subsystem that knows how to handle it, the way it should - the way IEEE floating point was designed to do 06:07:41 -!- gko [~gko@111.82.70.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:07:58 _3b, most curious! Does it not use IEEE representation for floating point? 06:07:59 rwallace: Wrong. 06:08:13 rwallace: atof has no mechanism for indicating failure ... 06:08:14 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-32-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:08:34 <_3b> clisp wants to force you to stay within the CL spec for floats, in some sort of attempt to promote 'portable' code 06:08:35 Most of the time, my infinities were indications of errors. Having infinities propagate and become infinity on output or, even worse, NaN drives me crazy. 06:08:45 Zhivago, this is very basic stuff, at this point I'm just going to refer you to any good tutorial on floating-point 06:08:52 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-112-204.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:13 rwallace: I suggest that you look up what atof does, instead. 06:09:23 _3b, ah, so it does use IEEE, but has no way to turn off fp exceptions? Okay, thanks 06:09:46 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 06:09:49 _3b: Is that way clisp's default is to do contagion backwards? :-) single op double is a single in clisp. 06:10:07 rwallace: Are you truly unaware that atof has undefined behaviour upon bad input? 06:10:10 Er,why, not way. 06:10:22 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-38-215.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:10:26 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:10:33 Also, atof has nothing to do with IEEE, since C doesn't mandate that. 06:10:41 <_3b> rwallace: possibly, it runs on some platforms without hardware FP, so might do something unusual there, and who knows what it does with the arbitrary precision long float stuff 06:10:44 So much confusion in one head ... 06:10:44 http://steve.hollasch.net/cgindex/coding/ieeefloat.html 06:10:51 Guest92535 [~foo@host253-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 06:10:51 rtoym, yeah, I'm certainly not objecting to the existence of FP exceptions as an optional feature. ... at the end of the day I suppose the answer for implementations like clisp is that I just tell the user to take it up with the vendors of the lisp implementation :-) 06:11:26 Zhivago, of course the language standard doesn't define what atof does on bad input. How could it do that, when the language standard doesn't even know what floating-point system will be used? 06:12:50 gko [~gko@223-139-104-117.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:09 rwallace: So, how does it manage to define it for strtof? 06:13:47 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:58 i normally avoid read from string unless i have already checked that the string is the format i am expecting (using a regex, for example) 06:15:20 i think sbcl has double-double-floats as an extension 06:15:23 i could be wrong though 06:15:36 cmucl has double-double's. I don't think sbcl has that. 06:15:58 The exponent isn't any larger, though. 06:16:03 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.18.223] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 06:16:07 Zhivago, I've never used strtof but a quick look at http://linux.die.net/man/3/strtof says the answer is 'not very well'. 06:16:07 ah 06:16:12 i knew it was in one or the other 06:16:52 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:16:56 you can avoid all this by representing numbers in roman numeral format 06:17:32 k9quaint, Roman numerals? You lucky bastards! In my day, we considered ourselves lucky to have unary! :P 06:18:05 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:18:06 in my day, we didn't have regex, we had to make miles long case statements!! 06:18:09 rwallace: I suggest learning C before referring to it for your desired behaviour. 06:19:32 Zhivago, I've been using C since the 1980s. I suggest reading http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=103163 before getting into arguments about floating-point arithmetic 06:20:10 rwallace: It's a pity that you haven't learned it yet, then. 06:20:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-147.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:21:41 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:22:19 huangho [~vitor@201-66-140-85.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 06:23:35 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.18.223] has joined #lisp 06:25:04 lambda-avenger [~roman@adsl-99-20-129-101.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:38 rtoym, it looks like sbcl does indeed provide set-floating-points-modes... but it still barfs! I think I'll just document this as "sorry, this is between you and your Lisp vendor" :P thanks for the help! 06:31:36 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:33:00 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@pool-96-224-28-127.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:35:45 nostoi [~nostoi@205.Red-79-157-93.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:48 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:43:37 Liera [~Liera@113.172.34.70] has joined #lisp 06:43:59 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@205.Red-79-157-93.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:49:33 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:49:50 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:49:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:49:50 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:54:30 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:56:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:59:11 -!- sako is now known as sako|AFK 07:02:26 jesusito [~user@58.pool85-49-45.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 07:03:21 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.34.70] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:04:07 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.66] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:04:53 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:05:01 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 07:05:53 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xdddeijxmbtjsqec] has joined #lisp 07:05:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:06:09 Liera [~Liera@113.172.34.70] has joined #lisp 07:06:36 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:56 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:11:53 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:10 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:14:24 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:53 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:48 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:16:48 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:16:48 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:16:50 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-66-140-85.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:16:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:17:02 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 07:17:07 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.157.83] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 07:20:10 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:25:48 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:25:58 good morning 07:26:41 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:44 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 07:27:04 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:27:24 When I use SLIME with slime-connect instead of slime and open a .lisp file, I have the following error: File mode specification error: (error "No inferior lisp process"), but SLIME can still interact with the Lisp, although the Lisp mode is not SLIME's (if... true and else expressions are not aligned)... 07:28:53 What's missing? 07:28:58 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:29:18 is slime-mode enabled? 07:30:05 Oh, when I M-x slime-mode, I have signal(error ("No inferior lisp process")) 07:30:25 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:31:44 and *slime-connections* is Nr Name Port Pid Type 07:31:45 -- ---- ---- --- ---- 07:31:45 * 1 lispworks (127.0.0.1 4005) 4548 LispWorks 07:32:12 I'll check. 07:33:20 (slime-inferior-process) is nil 07:33:37 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.18.223] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 07:33:44 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:36:03 bobzhang` [~user@2402:f000:5:ce01:5ab0:35ff:fef9:9c55] has joined #lisp 07:36:52 -!- cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:38:17 I read in the sbcl manual that "There is absolutely no binary compatibility of core images between different runtime support programs. " 07:38:42 so it's safe to use images for deployment only if the build machine has the exact same architecture and sbcl version that production machines, right ? 07:39:46 you can use save-lisp-and-die to produce an executable 07:40:02 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:40:18 Sounds like an R.L. Stine novel 07:40:22 i think same architecture as in x86 vs. x86-64 07:40:28 ok 07:40:33 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-122-110.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:40:37 daniel [~daniel@p508297AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:37 i am not an sbcl expert though 07:40:44 I'm currently deploying from sources, but the restart time of the daemon is kinda annoying 07:41:02 pretty much it is because the sbcl image is compiled code 07:41:45 ok 07:41:46 thank you 07:44:06 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:44:39 -!- daniel___ [~daniel@p5B326364.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:46:10 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:47:40 -!- bobzhang` [~user@2402:f000:5:ce01:5ab0:35ff:fef9:9c55] has left #lisp 07:47:42 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:49:58 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-hswhpgtipijhrfpf] has joined #lisp 07:50:03 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] 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08:52:20 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:52:38 hey, am trying to write a macro to achieve this http://paste.lisp.org/+2KEE 08:52:41 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:52:55 but am not getting where i'm going wrong 08:53:01 can someone kindly help? 08:53:42 spradnyesh: what's the name of your macro? 08:54:15 sorry, typo. it's 'is-car' 08:54:18 spradnyesh: or even -- where exactly are you going, and why are you not getting there? 08:54:44 also, missed the 'comma' before the 'table' variable 08:55:09 am basically writing a macro to define functions 08:55:30 i have like 20 odd functions that do the same thingy, except that the 'condition' on which they check are different 08:55:50 and if the condition is successful, then the save some data into a respective bucket in the hashtable 08:55:59 i've never done a macro to define functions 08:56:21 found a reference in parenscript, trying to learn from there 08:56:31 spradnyesh: why do you need a macro? 08:57:10 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:49 2 reasons: 1 good learning excercise ;), 2. all functions do the exact same thingy, except the condition on which they check are different 08:58:30 spradnyesh: that's why you should have only 1 function, and pass the condition as a function 08:58:31 so my aim was (via point 2 above) to have (is-car "sedan-all" ) and similarly for other functions 08:58:47 spradnyesh: like, define a function is-sedan instead 08:58:55 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:59:18 are you suggesting higher-order functions? like create a generic function and pass the condition as a function to it? 08:59:21 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:24 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-147.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:27 spradnyesh: you're missing parentheses around your lambda-list the in defun generated by the macro 08:59:39 -!- |rgs| [~hujvpalto@109-184-40-163.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:59:45 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:00:00 pers [~user@245.sub-69-98-233.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:00 i thought of that, but then i need a string which will form the key to the hashtable while storing the value, if the condition evaluated to true 09:00:23 also, it made sense to have the function name to be same as the key name, hence thought of macro 09:00:54 and if you name your buckets using strings, it should be (save-in-bucket ,(symbol-name name) table) 09:00:55 |rgs| [~hujvpalto@109-184-40-163.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 09:00:55 so that i'd pass "name" to it just once, and it would create both the function (w/ the same name) and the key to store data into the hashtable 09:01:08 spradnyesh: i suggest you create a mapping from your buckets to functions that determine if something belongs to that bucked 09:01:11 *bucket 09:02:11 and your defmacro is missing a name (defmacro defsaver (name condition) ...) ; no need for TABLE there, since you don't use it at macro-expansion time 09:02:47 spradnyesh: and you should abstract away from implying that your cars are hashtables 09:03:02 nikodemus: missed the 'comma' before the 'table' variable 09:03:44 spradnyesh: something like: (defun is-sedan (car) (string-equal (car-property "body_style" car) "SDN")) 09:03:53 Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 09:05:15 jdz: yea, i can do that 09:05:29 but i guess we're deviating from the main issue here, which is the macro 09:06:07 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@122.172.207.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:06:14 spradnyesh: no, the main issue is that you do not need a macro; of course you can go on and make it, to later learn that doing it with macros was wrong in the first place 09:06:50 spradnyesh: ever heard of data-driven programming (maybe called table-driven other places)? 09:07:07 jdz: i have 20 functions that do the exact same thing. so wouldn't i want to build the 20 functions using a macro? 09:07:34 spradnyesh: no, if the functions do the same thing, there is no need for 20 functions, because 1 will do just fine 09:09:11 possibly just adding one or a few parameters. 09:09:23 spradnyesh: what you do is you create a function with common behaviour, and pass the differences as parameters (which may be functions) 09:09:23 k, i missed 1 point here. lemme explain. i have some data that i want to classify into different buckets. i was thinking of having 1 function per bucket type. so when i pass my data through all these functions, my data will go to the various buckets that it belongs to. btw, data can reside in more than 1 bucket 09:10:06 jdz: i said above that i thought of that approach. but that ways, i can't generate the key inside the function, unless i pass that too 09:10:14 sprad: So, you want to make predicate functions to select if a datum should be placed in a bucket. 09:10:27 Zhivago: yup 09:10:34 sprad: What if the datum suits multiple buckets? 09:11:19 Zhivago: a datum can/will/should sit in multiple buckets. hence i was thinking of multiple functions in the 1st place 09:11:57 Joreji [~thomas@72-053.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:11:59 Well, you could compose the guard predicate into the bucket and chain them. 09:12:09 wait, i've got an idea. i can build a list of (("key1" (condition1))("key2" (condition2)) ...) and iterate over the list 09:12:28 and pass keyn, condition-n to the same function 09:12:31 i guess that should work 09:12:34 lemme try that out 09:12:46 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E709.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:03 spradnyesh: that's a good idea, i wonder how you came up with it... 09:13:12 You could also make an interface like maybe-add-to-bucket 09:13:30 jdz: ;) thanks for all the pointers 09:13:44 Then you could have a bucket that composed multiple buckets. 09:14:10 Then you could just iterate over your data, presenting each to the bucket, and then you're done. 09:17:05 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9EE18.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:18:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/119750#2 09:18:42 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 09:20:36 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 09:21:21 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:41 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:27:38 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 09:29:57 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:30:43 mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 09:30:53 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:31:41 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:31:41 -!- ilmari [ilmari@knuth.ping.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 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#lisp 09:42:07 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:42:09 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:06 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 09:47:16 ok, quick Q. i have stored the list representation of the function (it's body, basically) in a list. now i can't do a funcall on the list, coz it's of type CONS, and not of type function. what do i do so that i'll be able to do a funcall on the lambda body? 09:48:02 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:48:47 EVAL or COMPILE 09:49:20 nikodemus wins the "boldness to suggest use of EVAL in #lisp" badge 09:49:23 EVAL if you only need it once, COMPILE (and store the resulting function for reuse) if you need it multiple times 09:49:33 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:49:51 H4ns: i decided to try "giving people what they ask" instead of "giving people what they need" 09:50:24 -!- lambda-avenger [~roman@adsl-99-20-129-101.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:50:35 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:50:54 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:51:09 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 09:51:09 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:51:39 spradnyesh: H4ns point being that needing to do something like that is a sign that you're doing something wrong 99% of the time, and by the time you reach that 1% of cases where EVAL or COMPILE is the right tool you already know about them and their problems 09:51:58 tfb [~tfb@94.197.61.35.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:52:41 nikodemus: thanks for the hint 09:53:15 so what is the suggested/recommended approach for converting a cons (function body stored in a list) into a funcall-able function? 09:53:40 spradnyesh: doesn't your body need parameters? 09:53:57 spradnyesh: not your, but the bodies of your functions 09:54:29 spradnyesh: why do you have a function body in a list in the first place? 09:54:46 jdz: if you remember from our previous conversation a little while ago. now i have a list of the form (("key1" (condition1))("key2" (condition2)) ...) 09:55:06 spradnyesh: yes, but do you really have the body like (condition1)? 09:55:15 yes, i do 09:55:39 now i'm trying to do (when (second l) (do-something)) 09:55:44 spradnyesh: what does the result of that depend on? 09:56:02 spradnyesh: does (condition1) always return the same value? 09:56:04 but (second cl) is now a cons and not a function that can be evaluated to t or nil 09:56:25 spradnyesh: at what point do you have this list? 09:56:26 condition 1 is a lambda 09:56:28 spradnyesh: is that snipped from source code or from data? 09:56:29 spradnyesh: so, what is this magical "l' thing? 09:56:40 snippet even 09:56:49 l is an element of the list 09:56:56 spradnyesh: where does it come from? 09:56:59 H4ns: paste.lisp-ing 09:57:21 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:57:46 -!- jesusito [~user@58.pool85-49-45.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 09:57:52 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75474d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:53 http://paste.lisp.org/+2KEH 09:58:17 spradnyesh: why don't you write a macro that decomposes your list into pairs of (key (lambda () (condition))) instead? 10:00:32 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 10:01:17 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:01:23 H4ns: i did not completely understand your suggestion. please explain no 10:01:30 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.139.228] has joined #lisp 10:02:21 spradnyesh: from what i see, you are talking about stuff that you have in a source file anyway. thus, i would suggest that you write a macro that takes the data and modifies it so that it contains lambda expressions which can then be compiled into functions. 10:02:47 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:55 spradnyesh: you may want to spend some time reading on lisp to learn something about macros. 10:03:14 spradnyesh: on lisp as in "on lisp", the book by paul grahanm 10:03:34 H4ns: the immediate problem i'm facing is to convert lambda expressions into compiled functions 10:04:07 spradnyesh: yeah. my suggestion is to step back and re-think the strategy. if you don't want to do that, use eval. 10:04:49 You can just call compile on them. 10:04:53 H4ns: thanks 10:05:10 TeMPOraL [~user@static-195-114-183-51.devs.futuro.pl] has joined #lisp 10:05:16 spradnyesh: Are you aware that "On Lisp" is freely available at http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html ? 10:05:30 (compile nil '(lambda (x) (* x x))) ; etc 10:05:31 spradnyesh: there is no need to use compile if the source you showed in paste is the one you use; just use backquote instead of quote 10:06:29 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.139.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:06:57 chrnybo`: yup, i am. will read that soon. thanks for the pointer :) 10:07:27 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.139.228] has joined #lisp 10:09:33 sunwukong [~vukung@t1.iit.bme.hu] has joined #lisp 10:09:38 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:10:02 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@zz-12-6-a8.bta.net.cn] has left #lisp 10:11:16 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 10:11:31 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:11:47 spradnyesh: have you read practical common lisp? 10:12:14 nikodemus: yup, that i have 10:12:33 i'd suggest a careful reread, working on the examples while you do that 10:12:37 from the things you've said, i get the feeling you would benefit more from it that "on lisp" 10:15:28 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 10:15:35 -!- Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:16:03 tcr1 [~tcr@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 10:16:29 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 10:18:18 Lispier way of saying (loop for key in plist by 'cddr ... ? 10:18:52 alexandria:do-plist 10:20:57 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:55 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:22:59 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 10:23:00 Joreji [~thomas@72-053.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:25:43 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:25:50 reb``` [~user@nat/google/x-pfcatxmkdhxmqnys] has joined #lisp 10:26:24 -!- reb`` [~user@nat/google/x-tpvtgkhvcdgttrkf] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:28:47 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has left #lisp 10:28:52 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 10:30:41 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:32:07 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 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-!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:52:07 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:52:20 slash_1 [~unknown@pD955AF97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:08 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:53:53 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 10:54:07 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955F4C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:54:59 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 10:55:18 Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:21 -!- Guest92535 [~foo@host212-129-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:58:00 Which writings are well suited for a lisp programmer wishing to learn Java? 10:58:41 I don't think there are any in particular 10:58:47 chrnybo`: it is not that lisp programmers have some form of brain damage that makes "normal literature" unsuitable for them, or is it? 10:59:29 chrnybo`: I just learnt from the nutshell book + the reference materials 11:00:08 mind you I probably write fairly mutant Java 11:01:48 prip [~foo@host212-129-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:04:20 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:06:26 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:05 H4ns: I'd presume that I have a Ricardian comparative advantage in lisp compared to other programming languages. 11:08:06 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:09:13 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:05 chrnybo`: well, i'm not sure if i share that disease. what helps me with java is forgetting everything about how nice lisp makes my life as a programmer and expect java to be nicer than c++. that often works fairly well. 11:10:46 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.184.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:10:51 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 11:10:55 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 11:13:28 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:14:29 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:15:48 H4ns: so what about c++? 11:16:34 how do you psych yourself into working with it, then? "oh, this is so much nicer than cobol"? 11:16:48 nikodemus: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html 11:16:51 you don't. it's c++ all the way down 11:17:33 nikodemus: actually, i like c++ :) 11:17:35 You can always use it to implement CL. 11:18:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:20:04 nikodemus: what i meant to say was: it is good for a lisp programmer to not expect so much from java, for example by setting their mind back to another, lesser language that they have used in the past. 11:20:38 nikodemus: it is quite obvious that you can get very mad very quickly if you always imagine how nice it would be if you could use lisp instead. 11:21:00 Theorically, the lisp programmer could survive in a Java world by using ABCL or CLforJava (or even perhaps Clojure) to produce JVM compatible code callable from Java written by Coworkers). 11:22:07 Good afternoon everyone! 11:25:30 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:26:41 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-176-65.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:26:44 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:36 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:31:36 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@95.215.121.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:30 good afternoon 11:34:44 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:53 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:35:28 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:12 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:36:33 leo2007 [~leo@120.33.27.60] has joined #lisp 11:38:30 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 11:42:39 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:46:40 -!- slash_1 is now known as slash_ 11:46:43 tcr1 [~tcr@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 11:48:00 -!- 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[~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:08:39 zmv [~daniel@c934a93a.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:09:53 Any suggestions for something to buy from Lulu (the self-publishing thing), apart from extra copies of Let Over Lambda? 13:11:23 My new book, Lisp Out Loud 13:11:34 Also, if you could ghostwrite it... 13:11:38 hehe 13:12:01 O NOES! 13:12:11 other LOL book! 13:12:36 too much LOL in the (Common) Lisp community :P 13:12:59 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:27 Lisp Out Loud - One man's journey from Maine to Las Vegas and back again. 'We were fify miles out of Barstow when the drugs took hold...' 13:13:36 rofl 13:13:38 I think we are all missing the market for Lua On Lisp, a successor to the "implement R4RS Scheme in a new environment" tutorial 13:14:40 also you can use it to drive your copy of Civilization while you rain ion cannon fire from a mod plug-in on your enemies while programming in CL 13:15:41 lol 13:15:50 splittist: http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-little-book-of-push-ups/6102670 # unless you're looking for programming related stuff only :) 13:15:52 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:16:22 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-8b92e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:18:27 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:47 nikodemus 13:18:48 chitech [~khuongdp@82.143.212.234] has joined #lisp 13:19:05 (contd): touche 13:20:09 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:20:24 i actually recommend that one, btw, regardless of if one likes pushups or not :) 13:27:21 'The beginning of the meeting shall be on Thursday, Mar 31, 09:00 (AM). The remainder of the programme isn't available yet'. 13:28:46 LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-168.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:28:48 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:29:51 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:00 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.33.27.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:32:09 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:32:26 stassats: hi 13:32:40 zmv: what's up? 13:34:02 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:33 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:34:45 Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 13:36:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:37:18 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:06 stassats: not much. 13:39:07 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:39:30 RaceCondition [~erik@cs78144055.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:40:02 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-88-190.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:40:44 Say, does slime support "file local" readtables? 13:41:12 it supports named-readtables 13:41:47 That's interesting. 13:42:22 *rtoym* wonders if named-readtables has been updated recently with some cmucl fixes. 13:42:32 -!- Joreji [~thomas@72-053.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:42:55 doesn't seem like it 13:44:56 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:49:17 -!- Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:52:30 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:53:24 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:28 rien` [~user@static-71-249-187-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:13 -!- rien|away [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:55:21 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:56:38 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xdddeijxmbtjsqec] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:57:43 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:58:01 astoon [~astoon@94.25.192.23] has joined #lisp 13:58:13 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:34 -!- gko [~gko@223-139-104-117.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [] 14:00:10 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-168.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:00:10 LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-135-168.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 14:04:42 urandom__ [~user@p548A4E7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:50 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:06:21 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:31 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:07:18 -!- Trystam is now known as Tristam 14:08:02 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:08:41 My book on Category theory arrived today. This one's by Steve Awodey. I also have a 'looser' book by Pierce. Shame since his introduction to type theory rocks. 14:12:28 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:03 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 14:13:38 -!- LiamH1 is now known as LiamH 14:14:05 sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:13 huangho [~vitor@201-35-79-21.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 14:14:26 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:17:17 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.188] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:19:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has left #lisp 14:20:10 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 14:20:31 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:22:24 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-35-79-21.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:28:03 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-135-168.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:28:05 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:44 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.188] has joined #lisp 14:28:44 gemelen_ [~shelta@shpd-78-36-176-65.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:29:19 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.203.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29:30 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-176-65.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:29:36 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 14:30:34 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-lewrqrfpnbcqjlcv] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:31:56 rabite [~rabite@83.169.3.115] has joined #lisp 14:34:48 splittist: we need "OH SHIT!: The Acid is kicking in!" with a quote on the book saying "My God, The walls are melting!" 14:35:38 Well, that last part is just the Maine spring. 14:35:51 Amadiro [~Amadiro@1x-193-157-204-128.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:36:14 -!- rien` is now known as rien 14:36:57 p_l|backup: if it was VTEC kicking in instead of acid, you could have Vin Diesel write your blurb 14:37:17 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:38:18 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-dnqxueufblodttfo] has joined #lisp 14:39:34 haha 14:41:00 "Riting Object & Functional Lisp". 14:41:52 actually we're kinda running out of folks for acid blurbs. it's the perils of the end of the 60's and HOLY JEEZUS LOOK AT THOSE FUCKING BATS 14:42:05 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934a93a.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:42:46 I'm quite happy of that. After all, ALL our current problems can be blamed on them. 14:43:20 I think the problem is that some people too much acid and others took too little 14:43:27 *took 14:45:05 xu [justdojava@125.83.101.82] has joined #lisp 14:46:19 -!- xu [justdojava@125.83.101.82] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:46:35 ok! twice as fast slot-accesses using SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS + STANDARD-INSTANCE-ACCESS than before: only 3 x as optimized SLOT-VALUE on a standard class :) 14:46:55 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:59 -!- Liera` is now known as Liera 14:47:14 nikodemus: very nice :) 14:47:56 that's cool, i use slot-value-using-class all the time 14:48:09 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:23 nikodemus: sweet 14:48:24 zmv [~daniel@c934a93a.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:49:26 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:49:47 -!- jobf [~jfranck@c-9fbde555.03-87-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:49:53 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:50:31 leo2007 [~leo@120.33.27.60] has joined #lisp 14:51:00 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-crikwvoerseuiciu] has joined #lisp 14:51:41 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:52:21 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:52:28 benny` [~benny@i577A319E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:15 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:56:29 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-crikwvoerseuiciu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:56:55 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-fmnzhsqzrqolrual] has joined #lisp 14:58:12 -!- zmv [~daniel@c934a93a.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:01:26 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:02:24 does anyone develop webapps with lisp+zeromq+mongrel2 ? 15:02:26 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@cs78144055.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:43 Dranik: I haven't heard about anyone doing that. 15:03:01 Xach, so what's the most common way? 15:03:05 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 15:03:11 Dranik: I suspect hunchentoot is the most common way. 15:03:38 are there any examples (may be github?) 15:03:47 RaceCondition [~erik@cs78144055.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:04:05 Dranik: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/ provides documentation 15:04:19 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff9331.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:06:22 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:37 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:42 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 15:08:16 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:09:38 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 15:09:38 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 15:09:38 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:10:53 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-88-190.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:12:47 -!- astoon [~astoon@94.25.192.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:14:44 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:44 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:14:44 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 15:14:58 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 15:15:40 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.18.223] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 15:15:47 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@cs78144055.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:16:07 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:17:28 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 15:18:15 now if i can just get it to build instead of hotpatching... 15:18:33 Xach, how about paserve? 15:18:35 RaceCondition [~erik@cs78144055.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:18:49 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 15:19:14 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 15:20:42 Dranik: never tried it. 15:21:22 how about hunchentoot performance? is it ok? 15:21:44 Dranik: I find it ok for my purposes. YMMV. 15:22:01 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:24:05 -!- sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:21 -!- sako|AFK is now known as sako 15:26:55 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 15:27:50 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: I'll see you on the dark side of the moon] 15:28:10 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:29:30 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 15:30:03 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:30:18 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 15:31:52 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:15 morning 15:33:50 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 15:35:22 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 15:37:08 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:37:19 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:37:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:46 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:11 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:10 has anyone built an event driven taskmaster for hunchentoot? 15:42:29 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.188] has quit [Quit: Offline] 15:42:31 -!- sunwukong [~vukung@t1.iit.bme.hu] has quit [Quit: bye] 15:42:39 rien` [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:18 sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:50 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-dnqxueufblodttfo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44:29 -!- rien [~user@static-71-249-187-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:10 is there a way with hunchentoot to restrict which interfaces it listens on? 15:46:59 k9quaint: you can specify the listening IP address. 15:47:21 I didn't see that param :( 15:47:25 (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:acceptor :port 80 :address "localhost")) 15:47:48 Bronsa [~brace@host14-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:48:06 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:54 easy as pie 15:50:00 or (pie) 15:50:19 or PI 15:50:40 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:53 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-oerntjfrewfxvywm] has joined #lisp 16:03:31 -!- hdurer_office [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:43 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has left #lisp 16:06:48 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.18.223] has joined #lisp 16:06:53 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 16:07:05 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:07:12 -!- 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seconds] 16:49:18 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 16:49:51 -!- CrazyEddy [~creosol@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:50:54 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:51:26 CrazyEddy [~Wesleyism@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:52:18 BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has joined #lisp 16:53:08 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-cfddcecfdzcisdrl] has joined #lisp 16:54:29 schaueho [d5a445c1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.164.69.193] has joined #lisp 16:56:03 luis: Have you ever written a general printer for cffi structs? 16:56:12 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:56:34 I guess not otherwise integration into the slime inspector would probably have been done already 16:57:02 -!- schaueho [d5a445c1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.164.69.193] has quit [Client Quit] 16:57:56 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:58:21 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 16:59:01 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:00:56 -!- sako|AFK is now known as sako 17:01:11 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@109.144.253.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:02:43 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.18.223] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 17:02:59 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.18.223] has joined #lisp 17:04:19 ...and now defclass generated accessors are fast too :) 17:04:35 v cool :) 17:04:38 in the presense of SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS &co, that is 17:08:02 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:11 gz [~gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:22 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09:30 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:58 now to see if redefinitions work properly... 17:11:23 rasterbar 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has joined #lisp 17:27:35 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:27:41 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:28:38 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 17:28:55 jdz [~jdz@host199-106-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:29:31 antifuchs: I tried homebrew: "Error: No available formula for darcs" :( 17:29:57 jesusito [~user@58.pool85-49-45.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:30:11 Swappage_ [~chatzilla@dynamic-adsl-78-12-115-92.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:30:12 odd! 17:30:15 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 17:30:25 yeah, I don't have it either 17:30:38 let me check... somebody must have done that already (: 17:31:06 so far homebrew's answer's have been: 1) install some crazy MacTex package and 2) "what is the darcs thing you're speaking of"? 17:31:13 answers... 17:31:28 oh, and some crazy stuff about python when I went to try install hg. 17:31:36 well, maybe that's the best ones available (: 17:31:53 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:31:55 -!- Swappage [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/swappage] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:32:02 I think the things i use macports for are 1) building mozilla, 2) tex (of some flavor) and 3, darcs. homebrew's 0 for 3. 17:32:07 -!- Swappage_ is now known as Swappage 17:32:09 other than that, it's great :) 17:32:33 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:32:47 slyrus: ah, got it 17:32:58 slyrus: "brew install haskell-platform", then "cabal install darcs" (: 17:33:15 hrmm... thanks! 17:33:18 they defer to language-specific package managers for language-specific things (: 17:33:27 which is actually the right thing to do (IMHO) ((-: 17:34:16 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:35:30 What?!? Next you're going to tell me to use quicklisp instead of apt-get for lisp packages. Surely that's crazy. Oh wait, no it's not. 17:36:07 of course we're sort of painting our work in a weird corner by calling it "language-specific". 17:36:12 hahaha 17:36:21 it's true. let's say platform-specific 17:36:59 also, distribution management (; 17:38:09 mulder [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:35 -!- mulder is now known as Guest82637 17:38:46 Jini [~pidgin@212.106.34.212] has joined #lisp 17:39:55 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75474d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:25 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 17:40:43 hrm... is it too much to ask the various ports-like modules to just use the language-specific distribution mechanisms? Why can't brew install darcs just do what you suggested? 17:41:27 I think the maintainers don't want to burden themselves with tracking the various platform-specific upstreams 17:41:54 stuff can change rather rapidly (see node.js or clojure for example), and it would quickly evolve into a full-time job 17:41:57 hi guys, how was it again to associated the key and value in (loop for k being the hash-key of *table* (for?) for v being the hash-value of *table* ... ? 17:42:20 using (hash-value foo) 17:42:58 you could look it up in clhs, for a change 17:43:14 slyrus: there's also the question of which distribution manager to use... old, proven asdf-install or new, beta quicklisp for example (: 17:43:59 slyrus: we know which is the better choice, but will the package maintainers? (and I suppose it would quickly become an edit war on the homebrew repo as well) (: 17:44:13 better to just ship each dist manager, and let users decide (: 17:45:05 antifuchs: hrm... I'm not convinced. 17:45:10 -!- mcguitan83 [~user@negroni.enst.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:45:14 ok thx 17:45:27 I hear what you're saying, but it seems like some sort of intermediate path and cooperation might make the situation better 17:45:47 surely it can't get much worse than massively-outdated c-l-c screwing up folks lisps, for instance... 17:45:51 also, it's a time-proven tradition to humiliate people distribution-specific quesitons on platform-specific irc channels (: 17:45:58 not only on #lisp but also #apache, etc (-: 17:46:11 slyrus: because most language-specific compilation frameworks and packagers are very ill-designed 17:46:22 and unsuitable for a port system 17:46:24 oh wait, I forgot. Never say it can't get worse, because it always can, and usually does when you say that 17:46:31 "but which apt-get commandline do I have to type in to configure ?" 17:46:39 haha, exactly (: 17:48:00 i mostly help with linux command line questions in this channel 17:53:04 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:53:20 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:30 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:57:33 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:48 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:49 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:24 what does this do? (declare (values foo)) 18:02:51 -!- Guest87668 [~longshot@180.184.9.173] has quit [Quit: Guest87668] 18:03:36 pattern: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_values.htm has the documentation 18:03:49 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:03:58 if anyone cares to run this on something other than SBCL, i'd be interested in the results: http://paste.lisp.org/display/119763 18:04:01 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:04:07 -!- tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:04:15 tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 18:04:22 Xach: right.. i understand values.. but what does putting it in a declare block do? 18:04:42 pattern: it's an sbcl extension which declares the return value of a function 18:05:03 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-cfddcecfdzcisdrl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:05:05 cmucl extension, really 18:05:12 pattern: The page I linked explains the standard meaning of what you wrote. 18:05:40 (and it isn't very useful since the declaration won't be visible outside the function) 18:06:27 pers [~user@213.sub-75-226-155.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:13 Xach: but it doesn't even mention declare 18:07:24 and it's also written in legalese 18:07:40 what stats and nikodemus said is much clearer and more helpful, imo 18:07:41 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:07:52 oops, i mean stassats 18:07:58 sorry 18:08:38 clhs assumes that you know where type declarations should be 18:09:06 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:08 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:09:56 Helllo! I have problem with cffi, I'm trying to load-foreign-library, but my library .so is 32bit, and I'm using Debian 64bit. I got ERROR "libclp.so: wrong class ELF: ELFCLASS32.". Is there any way to load this library? 18:09:57 -!- tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:10:00 nikodemus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/119763#1 18:10:10 s/Helllo!/Hello!/ 18:10:17 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-218-22.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:25 tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 18:10:42 mrSpec: your best bet would be to use a 64-bit .so 18:10:55 hargettp: it is impossible :( I dont have it 18:11:09 ASau [~user@93-80-218-22.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:11:12 then use 32-bit lisp 18:11:15 mrSpec: may be worth compiling SBCL as a 32-bit executable 18:11:40 ah, but is there and any other solution? 18:12:23 mrSpec: not that I am aware of; most 64-bit OSes do not (AFAIK) support a 64-bit process loading a 32-bit module 18:13:08 mrSpec: you could write some other code that runs in a 32-bit process, then communicate via local sockets from your 64-bit process 18:13:11 stassats: thanks! 18:13:20 -!- gz [~gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:14:01 ah, thanks hargettp 18:14:09 mrSpec: yw...and gl :) 18:14:44 one more question, is it possible to have sbcl 32 and 64bit on the same system? 18:14:46 moldcase [~jarrod@208.96.15.2] has joined #lisp 18:14:48 hi 18:14:52 I want to learn lisp 18:14:58 *stassats* wonders why hargettp didn't use & and  18:15:02 mrSpec: should be 18:15:03 what is the recommended implementation for linux 18:15:04 moldcase: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ is a good way to do that. 18:15:19 Xach: thank you 18:15:24 moldcase: i recommend SBCL 18:15:35 *hargettp* applauds stassats code review skills :) 18:15:49 moldcase: http://www.mohiji.org/2011/01/modern-common-lisp-on-linux/ has some tips 18:16:43 great thanks 18:16:46 I really appreciate it 18:17:25 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has left #lisp 18:17:53 *Xach* wonders what happened to arbscht's website 18:20:32 *j_king* needs to figure out what to do with cdr.io 18:20:38 nikodemus: and allegro http://paste.lisp.org/display/119763#2 18:21:43 maybe one of those fancy JS terminals with a repl in it? 18:22:13 that'd be pretty sweet 18:22:31 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@cs78144055.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 18:22:36 I'll make a point of not typing in (exit) (-; 18:22:41 :) 18:22:53 carlocci [~nes@93.37.178.188] has joined #lisp 18:23:46 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 18:24:05 nikodemus: do you need more? 18:24:07 will have to shadow the dangerous built-ins ofc 18:24:40 and create an selinux policy for the image just in case. 18:25:09 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@58.230.108.42] has joined #lisp 18:25:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-72-176.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:25:16 but yeah.. wanna do something with the domain that helps lisper community. 18:25:32 nikodemus: http://paste.lisp.org/+2KER/3 18:27:05 clisp takes a good long time to run this code. 18:27:06 lispworks is really fast on hairy tests 18:27:52 nikodemus: here's lispworks http://paste.lisp.org/display/119763#4 18:28:24 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:28:37 antifuchs: then do you just add ~/.cabal/bin to your path? 18:28:55 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:29:04 slyrus: I symlinked its darcs to /usr/local/bin (: 18:29:15 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:29:19 not using cabal for anything else, so that works for me (: 18:29:22 ah, ok. that seems reasonable 18:29:32 lispworks has almost the same timings for hairy and non-hairy tests 18:29:51 Tau [~tau@189-127-60-59.i-next.psi.br] has joined #lisp 18:29:55 -!- Tau [~tau@189-127-60-59.i-next.psi.br] has left #lisp 18:31:10 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31:59 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:32:30 I have a large data set that can't be loaded in memory. How may I handle it? Is there an efficient way to use a disk like memory? 18:32:49 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.80.153] has joined #lisp 18:32:57 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:33:24 mmap, if you need random access 18:34:56 I've got code in which I check the actual dimensions (src-width src-height) of an image with the dimensions specified by the user (for a blitting function). Here's what I wrote (http://paste.lisp.org/display/119765), but I'm not happy with how I used format, any suggestions? 18:35:04 stassats // Can you give me some more detail? 18:35:11 ok, i'm officially impressed with lispworks :) 18:35:37 nikodemus: do your new changes come close? 18:36:29 kenjin2201: not much, you just use mmap(2) in some way 18:36:45 jtza8: yeah, you could use just ~A and return the string error message from the cond? 18:37:00 on my box i have the hairy ones in the 5 second ballpark, but i think how to get them to the 1 second range 18:37:19 *jtza8* does a face-palm 18:37:24 the basic ones are already very snappy on sbcl 18:37:30 antifuchs: Thanks for that :) 18:37:39 "i think i know", that is 18:37:40 jtza8: (-: 18:37:48 BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has joined #lisp 18:38:10 -!- tfb [~tfb@94.197.61.35.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:15 but it's interesting that basic-2 is slower than basic-1 or basic-3 on both sbcl and lispworks 18:38:26 (i don't know why it's like that yet) 18:38:28 but the ~[ ~] thing isn't too bad, either... it's more that the cond forces you to hard-code array indices 18:38:42 i would expect basic-2 and basic-3 to be about as fast 18:38:55 and basic-1 the fastest of those 18:38:58 stassats // Can I load any lisp object in a memory created by "mmap"? 18:39:15 tangentially related: http://sydneypadua.com/2dgoggles/comics/econ2_007.jpg 18:39:15 (format nil "~{~A~^ and~}" `(,@(when too-wide "too wide") ,@(when too-high "too high"))) ////// 18:39:17 if you're clever enough, yes 18:39:26 Xach: ahh, nice (: 18:39:37 *Xach* throws out more / the less serious he is 18:39:45 Thank you. I'm not clever though. 18:40:32 kenjin2201: What kind of data is it? 18:41:17 Xach // Financial data like stock price,... 18:42:28 *stassats* learns about standard-instance-access 18:42:29 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:42:36 kenjin2201: Are you loading simple values, like numbers, or do you want complex objects like instances? Do you need to both read and write values? 18:42:48 i should try to use it directly instead of slot-value-using-class 18:43:35 Xach // Mostly hash tables or vectors, yes I need to read and write 18:43:54 and then i wouldn't worry about methods on it slowing down initialization 18:44:58 Xach // Sorting and merging large data sets give me headaches 18:46:02 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 18:46:33 kenjin2201: and yet so much of the early literature about sorting and merging is precisely about how to handle data-sets bigger than memory (both bytes...) 18:47:01 kenjin2201: How much data is there? 18:47:49 It can be larger than 5 gigs 18:49:03 splittist // I'm not a professional programmer. 18:49:20 I need simpler ways 18:49:32 use a database, or a key/value store. 18:49:52 pattern_ [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has joined #lisp 18:50:08 kenjin2201: Spend $ on 16GB of memory :) 18:50:16 like sql? I tried it but I find it hard to connect sql from lisp. How should i do that? 18:50:27 cl-sql or postmodern 18:50:29 i use postmodern 18:50:31 postmodern is a good lisp->postgresql connector 18:50:33 I like it a lot 18:50:41 cl-mssql works nicely too, if you have SQL Server nearby. 18:50:49 there's also cl-couchdb which seems to work pretty well for the couchdb system. 18:50:52 It's postmodern-like, except for using an FFI to freetds 18:51:35 Is it easy to use them? Most of cl packages' documents are not easy enough for newbies 18:51:48 you're a puzzling case. 18:51:57 how is it you landed in the middle of this lisp code? 18:51:58 kenjin2201: postmodern's documentation is very good 18:52:01 kenjin2201: postmodern has good documentation. 18:52:14 Oh...good to hear that 18:52:53 -!- pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:52:53 -!- pattern_ is now known as pattern 18:53:13 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:53:24 Fade // I happend to read SICP and I fell in love with ti 18:53:40 cool 18:53:49 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-39-233-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:54:23 love is irrational 18:54:28 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:54:30 :) 18:54:48 Installation is perfect at least 18:54:48 *Fade* hands stassats the beta neuron suppressors 18:55:01 kenjin2201: are you using quicklisp? 18:55:06 Yes 18:55:11 it's good 18:55:15 yes, it is. :) 18:55:51 Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:08 is there any way to have quicklisp use a local repository, or to pin it to a particular "release"? 18:56:08 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:12 pattern_ [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has joined #lisp 18:56:42 foom: What do you mean by "local repository"? Of an individual project? 18:57:06 foom: Or a set of projects? 18:57:18 no, I mean, it seems like it'd be nice to be able to use it as part of ITA builds, but I wouldn't want it going off on the internet every time someone does a new build. 18:57:43 I guess I'm thinking Quicklisp ~= Maven. 18:57:50 Do you work with bhyde? He's doing the same thing. 18:58:09 The short answer on the quicklisp end is the data is designed to make that easy, but the code is not written to make it convenient yet. 18:58:34 I don't work with him afaik. :) 18:58:41 -!- tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:58:58 The idea being it would be easy to have local sets of projects, an easy way to install a particular version of a set of projects, an easy way to go forward or backward versions, or to inhibit updates, etc. 18:59:28 -!- pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:28 -!- pattern_ is now known as pattern 18:59:30 the indexes and project archives are designed with that in mind, but I still have to actually write the code to exploit it. 18:59:52 I haven't used maven, so I don't know how that aligns. 19:00:13 tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 19:00:18 Maven is a java build system which pulls down everything for you from the internet, like quicklisp. 19:00:27 But you can tell it to look instead in a local repository 19:00:44 You can do that with Quicklisp, too, but the creation and use of local repos is not easy yet. 19:00:55 Also, by default, it uses the latest version of every project, but you can pin it down with your project file to tell it exactly what versions to use 19:02:19 There are also maven repository managers (a java webapp) which can automatically pull software from upstream repositories. 19:02:47 so when you request XYZ version 1.2.3, it'll return it locally if it has it, otherwise it can pull it from the internets 19:03:17 (that part is more on the advanced-not-really-necessary side) 19:04:08 nikodemus: which optimize settings are you using? speed 3 and the rest 0? 19:04:41 Can I ask Quicklisp: which dependencies will be installed if I want "Hunchentoot" (but don't install it yet)? 19:05:09 Agari: Let me see... 19:05:53 Agari: in an ugly way: (ql-dist::dependency-tree (ql-dist:system "hunchentoot")) 19:05:58 quicklisp being more of a curated selection of pacakges than a random mishmash, it might make more sense to treat it by default as having "release editions" that you can select one of, rather than individually selecting the versions of every piece of software. 19:06:21 foom: semi-curated... 19:06:39 the inclusion of a project in quicklisp does not currently suggest an endorsement of the project by me. 19:06:40 Xach: not that ugly, looks fine, thanks. 19:06:58 -!- moldcase [~jarrod@208.96.15.2] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:06:59 Agari: handy for generating graphviz input files! 19:07:15 pmd: everything at 1 19:07:53 well, let me put it this way: when I was installing a java program recently, it downloaded 11 different versions of the *build system* (comprised of ~120 packages total), out of the total 250 packages it needed (the others also containing a few duplicates). 19:08:17 pmd: (assuming you're asking about the slot-access stuff) 19:08:27 Because every single thing specified version dependencies. 19:08:59 That's very different from the goal of a curated package repository with something like debian or (I assume) quicklisp 19:09:26 I only dream of having 11 different asdf versions in quicklisp. 19:09:28 nikodemus: yes. btw, is there some tar.gz or zip for closer-mop? 19:09:43 it's in quicklisp! 19:10:10 indeed! get quicklisp now if you don't have it yet 19:10:52 Agari: ah, you can have it slightly less ugly with: (ql-dist::dependency-tree "hunchentoot") 19:10:58 but you can also just replace the closer-mop: prefixes with you-impl-mop: prefixes 19:11:00 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:11:24 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:11:40 Xach: I'm sure they have more than 11 versions available, that's just all that was needed for the software I wanted to install. :) 19:12:41 -!- splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:13:08 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:14 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:13:27 nikodemus: thanks for the tip 19:14:53 Xach: as long as the package names are there, no problem, most of them shouldn't have many dependencies anyway. 19:15:00 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host14-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:15:03 *Xach* is blocked on a bug in one of tamas k. papp's projects 19:15:41 *Xach* blames nikodemus and alexandria package locks! (but not really) 19:18:43 splittist [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:19:22 nikodemus: tested acl 8.1 win32 x86. it's a bit faster than for stassats (about -33% time). everything is about the same except basic-2 is about 2.5 times slower than basic-1 instead of 5 19:19:23 kami` [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 19:19:32 Hello 19:19:52 -!- kami` is now known as kami 19:20:14 pmd: that's because i don't have a real computer 19:23:53 stassats: what os did you test on? 19:24:07 International Allegro CL Free Express Edition 8.2 [Linux (x86)] 19:24:22 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:35 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:50 stassats: there's either something about the differente in win32<->linux implementation or the 8.1<->8.2 versions that makes basic-test-2 run 5 times slower instead of 2.5. 19:26:29 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:26:37 bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-115-134.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:42 pmd: i'm not interested in cross-impl comparisons, but difference between basic vs hairy, etc 19:28:56 lispworks is pretty well ahead of the pack in hairy department 19:29:30 Is there a function like excl:source-file in sbcl? 19:29:39 nikodemus: the difference is slot-value-using-class, right? well anyway, 8.2 was a bit faster on the hairy ones than 8.1 (between 1.25 and 1.5 seconds less) 19:29:47 kami: what does excl:source-file do? 19:30:03 "This function returns the source file for object if such information is available and returns nil otherwise." 19:30:18 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-103-156.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 19:30:37 reb```` [~user@nat/google/x-ljxxppxfapfndhgr] has joined #lisp 19:30:52 -!- reb``` [~user@nat/google/x-pfcatxmkdhxmqnys] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:33:04 kami: sb-introspect:find-definition-source seems like a partial answer 19:33:38 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:33:46 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 19:33:48 pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:53 heh. acl 9.0 alpha fails loading quicklisp. I'll file a bug (: 19:35:39 *Xach* eeks! 19:35:59 pmd: yep. the classic bane of fast slot access 19:36:05 -!- meingbg [~meingbg@c-5ee3e055.85-2-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:36:06 aintme [~user@203.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:36:08 -!- Guest82637 [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:36:10 Xach: thank you 19:36:11 meingbg [~meingbg@c-5ee3e055.85-2-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:36:17 Xach: it's an internal bug, I'm sure 19:37:08 it'd be cool if for (loop for x across vector1 for y across vector2 collect (cons x y)) SBCL used only one index variable 19:37:08 19:37:21 or maybe i'm missing something which prevents from doing this? 19:37:57 lobby beach to make that optimization, then lobby sbcl to use beach's version 19:38:28 <|3b|> stassats: seems like that would be better as a lower level compiler optimization 19:38:51 even more cool would be (loop for i from 0 for x across vector ...) 19:40:09 |3b|: looking at macroexpansion of LOOP, you'd need a Really SC 19:41:41 *stassats* wonders what would be faster, a vector with cons cells or a vector twice the size storing two objects sequentially 19:42:09 <|3b|> well, more a question of what it looks like once you get it to SSA or whatever form 19:42:19 lispworks should offer a groupon :) 19:43:03 bhyde: in what organization are you using quicklisp? 19:43:12 *|3b|* would expect storing things directly in 1 or 2 typed arrays to be faster than conses, assuming it can actually use the type info 19:43:27 i'm at novasparks 19:43:36 unfortunately, i use T vectors 19:43:58 i've already found out that using two vectors is slower, when iterating with ACROSS 19:44:07 odd, the hairy tests don't seem to complete for me on a fully-patched acl 8.2. 19:44:08 bhyde: Are you going to be at ELS, with Marc? 19:44:10 <|3b|> harder to say then, might have better cache locality all in 1 array 19:44:15 something is weird here (: 19:44:39 well, i'll test it soon, but i'm just trying to predict 19:44:42 sellout: doubtful 19:45:24 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-246.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:46:18 bhyde: ah, I see. I thought you were an ITAer. 19:46:38 xach: i'm scared of hieghts 19:46:40 *Xach* sees his market for lucrative Enterpri$e Quickli$p consulting double! 19:47:38 bhyde: wait, what? (: 19:48:40 xach should offer a groupon 19:49:05 *Xach* has your groupon right here 19:49:17 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.182.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:50:16 milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff9331.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:51:37 so, does anybody know how to determine how to list out the systems of the same name are hanging out in the current asdf2 search path 19:53:09 or just how to 19:53:55 does (or will) quicklisp support patching / branching of the downloaded packages? 19:54:05 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff9331.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:54:05 or maybe just having a special server? 19:54:36 this is the global subconscious at work, Xach (-: 19:54:45 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.152] has joined #lisp 19:55:15 I don't want to patch upstream projects. I would consider forking unmaintained projects to keep them up to date. A third party could make a set of projects patched or branched however they liked. 19:56:44 *Xach* would rather other people re-maintained abandoned projects though 19:57:19 Fare: scroll up just before you joined. :) 19:59:00 |3b|: turned out, double-sized vector is a little bit faster than a vector with conses 19:59:18 Fare: Is there any way for me to do something like (:directory (:home #p";some;path;*;")) in ASDF's source registry? 19:59:39 but it sure looks more ugly 20:00:14 stassats: what about a cons of two vectors? 20:03:46 rpx__ [~user@9-36.4-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:04:18 Xach: which abandoned projects ? 20:05:05 *sellout* just re-maintained cl-glpk. 20:05:18 _schulte_ [~Eric@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:31 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.115] has joined #lisp 20:05:46 fe[nl]ix: the abandoned projects of the future 20:06:11 fe[nl]ix: i.e. a theoretical situation 20:08:13 -!- rpx__ [~user@9-36.4-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 20:08:33 mda_ [~donmorris@c-24-19-11-231.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:57 I'm having trouble with cl-cffi-grovel.....I get the following error.... 20:09:00 (SB-IMPL::SIMPLE-FILE-PERROR 20:09:01 "failed to find the TRUENAME of ~A" 20:09:01 #P"/usr/share/common-lisp/source/cl-cffi/grovel/package.lisp" 20:09:01 2) 20:09:08 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.115] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:47 mda_: The debian/ubuntu package? 20:09:52 looks like you have common-lisp-controller installed... did you install cl-cffi via a debian package? 20:09:54 I'm running Ubuntu 10.04.1 LTS, and installed sbcl, asdf, cffi, etc 20:10:08 oh 20:10:20 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 20:10:26 is the controller bad in general? 20:10:28 mda_: You might have some luck tracking down who is responsible for the projects in ubuntu and asking them for help, but I generally recommend not installing debian/ubuntu packages for Lisp projects. 20:10:48 Xach: which arch then? 20:10:50 what xach says. best to get quicklisp, and use that (: 20:10:55 Xach: which dist I mean 20:10:56 http://quicklisp.org 20:11:32 -!- Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:11:33 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff9331.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 20:11:35 Xach: I adopted parse-number and split-sequence, and I could do the same for other packages 20:11:38 mda_: I don't recommend using distro packages in general. Though gentoo people seem to get by. 20:11:49 Maybe it's because they are hard core. 20:12:04 <|3b|> more to the point, they support it here :p 20:12:09 debian's sbcl binary is good to bootstrap a newer sbcl from source, then get quicklisp & use that for getting software (: 20:12:17 interesting...first i've heard of quicklisp....what's it derived from? 20:12:26 Xach: two vectors is the slowest variant 20:12:32 stassats: yow. 20:12:42 it sprang from Xach's forehead, fully-formed (: 20:13:35 can quicklisp interface with LLVM? say with CL-LLVM or similar bindings? I want to write a DSL with LLVM as the backend 20:13:45 mda_: It's an original CL program that uses some ideas from clbuild and similar projects. 20:14:01 although, double-sized vector is slower than a vector with conses if no type declarations are used 20:14:09 mda_: Quicklisp is a library manager. It doesn't manage any llvm-related libraries. 20:14:45 -!- milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff9331.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:15:03 mda_: Have you considered writing a DSL with Common Lisp as the backend? 20:15:05 *mda_* hopes ANSI CL writers roll in their graves over package management, sockets, and MOP ;) 20:15:17 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:15:19 mda_: Why? 20:15:33 mda_: and they're all quite alive, AFAIK 20:15:42 yes, i mean later :) 20:16:06 -!- aintme [~user@203.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:16:57 so, if you want to live longer, use Lisp 20:16:59 Yes, but I want LLVM.....even the haskell guys use it 20:17:01 *Xach* doesn't know of any CL LLVM libraries that are more than small experiments, would love to hear otherwise. 20:17:26 mda_: If that's your criteria, you might also consider using Haskell, because I hear the Haskell guys use it. 20:17:33 lol 20:17:36 the network extention to --load and (load ...) in ccl is pretty sweet. 20:17:48 Fade: for loading quicklisp 20:17:48 mda_: while, yes, LLVM would be ideal, do not underestimate the efficient native code generation of modern Lisps (e.g., SBCL) 20:17:55 stassats: precisely. 20:18:08 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:16 hargettp: are you sure that it would be ideal? 20:18:23 it'd be nice to have the same feature in sbcl. 20:18:30 Xach: https://github.com/sellout/CL-LLVM 20:18:43 ok, thanks guys, i'll write my DSL and see how it does.............last question............what do you think of the CL implementations that used to be commercial, vs SBCL 20:19:04 which lisps fit that description? 20:19:06 Clozure CL? 20:19:14 stassats: I see benefit since so much energy and capital (e.g., Apple) is being spent making LLVM an effective engine for optimization...would be nice if CL could benefit too 20:19:18 you can pay for SBCL too 20:19:25 mda_: Which ones used to be commercial? 20:19:25 mda_: I'm guessing you're the guy who just emailed me :) 20:19:27 hey sellout I just emailed you...sorry for the repeat 20:19:33 =) 20:19:45 stassats: yes, while I would love Lisp "all the way down:"..LLVM seems to have momentum...that's all 20:20:04 I could use some Clozure here ;) 20:20:10 *sellout* is just about to email Xach to get CL-LLVM in QL. 20:20:14 hargettp: but...momentum in the right direction? 20:20:26 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:42 And by email Xach, I mean, open a github issue. 20:20:43 Quadrescence: erm...yes? something about LLVM seem misguided? 20:20:59 hargettp: yes but I am far too tired to debate it 20:21:08 IMHO: Apple is behind it for a good reason. clang outperforms gcc in optimization _and_ AST visibility/debugging...........clang will replace gcc in 5-10 years IMHO 20:21:28 Quadrescence: I have no desire to spark a debate either :) 20:21:41 apple is behind it because they can keep their code private if they wish, and no longer need to abide by the rules of GPL 20:21:51 Sokay, Apple has a bigger market cap than Exxon, so that says enough for me :) 20:21:54 *hargettp* takes the bait 20:22:15 enthymeme [~kraken@76.245.60.219] has joined #lisp 20:22:34 market cap is a great guide for technology decisions at the level of compiler infrastructure. 20:22:36 Quadrescence: ah, but so far, LLVM (and GCC & CLang) seem to benefit from Apple's contributions...so not the worst thing ever 20:23:00 *hargettp* wonders if there is an #llvm channel... 20:23:03 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:23:08 i can't believe I got sucked into that. 20:23:09 hargettp: on a different network there is 20:23:12 *Fade* goes back to work 20:23:15 lol 20:23:29 hargettp: There is, but it's not on Freenode. 20:23:32 Objective-C 2.0 is annoying with the "Class Clusters" you can't subclass....like NSMutableSet I think and various other collections.....it's sort of a sneaky way to keep things closed/"opaque" 20:24:10 how bout those lisp clusters 20:24:25 sellout: I can't find any package that provides libLLVM.so, but there is one that provides libLLVM-2.7.so. Should I install it from source? 20:24:28 we should get some steel producer to sponsor SBCL 20:24:46 or a banker, or better both 20:24:48 Xach: what distro? 20:25:03 mda_: Ubuntu. 20:25:29 Xach: sudo apt-get install llvm, also pulls in libllvm2.7.... 20:25:50 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:26:08 *mda_* prefers Steel Cut Irish Oats to Steel Bank ;) 20:26:11 mda_: I'm looking for something that provides a file named libLLVM.so. That doesn't do it. 20:26:22 Xach: I can add libllvm2.7 as a fallback. 20:26:41 sellout: How did you get LLVM libraries? 20:27:12 /usr/lib/llvm/lib/libLLVM-2.7.so 20:27:19 Xach: Well, they're pre-installed on OS X, but I also build from SVN head. 20:27:24 sellout: ahh, right. 20:27:40 sudo updatedb; locate libLLVM | less 20:27:59 mda_: Does that show a file named libLLVM.so? 20:28:09 francogrex [~user@109.130.143.20] has joined #lisp 20:28:16 isn't that just a symlink to the latest anyway? heck 20:28:23 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.152] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:37 *mda_* is no LLVM expert 20:28:38 mda_: Yes  but the point is that using QL, it should just download and work. 20:28:54 Agari [~Agari@180.Red-81-33-92.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:56 ah 20:29:00 brb 20:30:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@72-053.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:30:52 sellout: is SBCL your favorite? 20:31:05 mda_: I work for Clozure :) 20:31:11 *mda_* knows :) 20:31:22 I'll take that as a yes 20:31:35 mda_: No  Clozure CL is my favorite. 20:31:36 does it have "eat your own dog food" policy? 20:31:46 hehe 20:31:53 ok, then I'll try CCL 20:33:02 Isn't Clozure a fork of another proprietary system? 20:33:11 *mda_* wishes they would all play nice with asdf 20:33:36 http://ccl.clozure.com/history.html has the scoop 20:33:41 mda_: Which does not play nice with asdf? 20:34:17 Well, I had an unpleasant experience with socket libraries last year, and will never forget it 20:34:28 Get over it. 20:34:31 Things change. 20:34:45 CL's have their incompatibilities....damn ANSI standard! ;) 20:34:46 quickly 20:35:14 sockets shouldn't ;p 20:35:40 Mococa [~Mococa@187.59.205.54] has joined #lisp 20:36:04 alama [~alama@2001:888:19f0:2:cabc:c8ff:fea1:9ae5] has joined #lisp 20:36:13 *mda_* thanks lispers again for candid advice........will try CCL for DSL............bye 20:36:26 -!- mda_ [~donmorris@c-24-19-11-231.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:40:32 Xach: I just pushed the libLLVM name change. 20:41:01 anyone know of any good graph libraries for cl? 20:41:06 i have to deal with some dependency graphs 20:41:41 alama: There are two different dot-generating libraries  I think cl-dot is the one I prefer, but I always get confused. 20:41:52 sellout: cool 20:42:48 sellout: hmm, no luck still. ldconfig -v shows https://github.com/sellout/CL-LLVM 20:42:50 err 20:43:07 libLLVM-2.7.so.1 -> libLLVM-2.7.so.1 is what it shows. 20:43:09 *Xach* fails at unix 20:43:30 That  umm  I don't know what that means. 20:44:03 sellout: hmm, i had in mind libraries that work with graph data structures, not so much outputting to dot 20:44:37 alama: there is a project called "cl-graph", but I don't know anything about it, sorry. 20:44:39 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@58.230.108.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:44:51 -!- syntaxman [wade@funtoo/user/syntaxman] has left #lisp 20:45:22 Xach: cool, thanks -- taking a look 20:45:32 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:15 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:55 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.33.27.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:48:01 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:48:51 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Client Quit] 20:49:00 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:49:28 Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:51 Xach: I'm way out of Linux practice  does that .1 at the end prevent CFFI's (:default "libLLVM-2.7") from matching? 20:51:28 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-103-156.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:51:39 sellout: I'm afraid I don't know, either on the unix side or the cffi side. 20:51:40 IE, do I need a (unix (:or "libLLVM-2.8.so.1" "libLLVM-2.7.so.1"))? 20:51:48 Ok 20:51:51 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:51:54 *sellout* will poke luis. 20:52:15 -!- jesusito [~user@58.pool85-49-45.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 20:53:30 sellout: yes, and :unix not unix 20:53:38 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 20:54:24 fe[nl]ix: Gracias. 20:54:59 *sellout* supposes he should set up a Linux VM for this stuff. 20:55:02 *Xach* stands ready to (update-and-crank 'cl-llvm) 20:57:58 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 20:58:09 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:59:55 2.7 and 2.8 might have different ABIs 20:59:57 be warned 21:00:17 if they had a common ABI, there would be libLLVM.so. 21:02:23 p_l|backup: But we're only concerned with the C interface portion of the lib, which shouldn't have a different ABI, right? 21:02:44 sellout: that doesn't change the unix naming convention 21:03:19 Xach: You can try again. 21:03:33 -!- jdz [~jdz@host199-106-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:03:36 *sellout* fears falling out of Xach's good graces. 21:04:22 I believe LLVM considers each release breaking enough to change ABI... depending on the subset of it that you used, it might, or it might not work 21:05:53 mathrick: You got Genera running recently, right? Was that on a 2.6 kernel? 21:06:03 -!- _schulte_ [~Eric@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:18 sellout: ; Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when binding READ-CHAR as a local 21:06:21 function 21:06:29 (that's for kaleidoscope) 21:06:41 sellout: the kernel doesn't matter 21:06:53 sellout: what matters is X11 version 21:07:00 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@58.230.108.42] has joined #lisp 21:07:33 p_l|backup: The problem I had is that ./genera caused "bash: can not execute binary" or something similar. 21:07:57 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08:02 sellout: ... have you per chance tried to run the original VLM2 binary instead of the snap4 one? 21:08:08 file ./genera please 21:08:39 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:08:54 Me first! 21:09:02 good graces...souring... 21:09:10 p_l|backup: No, it was the snap_4 one  I don't have the VM for it at the moment, but `file ./genera` said something like " Linux 2.4  ELF "  which is what made me think it might be the kernel. 21:09:46 Xach: Sorry  21:09:59 sellout: it might be related to some changes that occured in 2.3.x 21:10:19 Does ccl have package locks in any form? 21:10:24 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 21:10:29 *Xach* guesses from google results "no" 21:10:31 Xach: Nope :) 21:11:03 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-72-176.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:11:05 sellout: I suspect it might be related to requested ELF interpreter version :) 21:11:19 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:02 TeMPOraL [~user@178.182.149.132.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:12:28 don't remember if ld version 2 was somehow related to 2.4 21:12:59 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75474d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:34 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 21:14:34 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 21:15:02 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 21:15:28 alama: I have a graph package epigraph that you might find interesting 21:15:42 slyrus_: oh yeah? 21:15:48 can you give me a url? 21:16:07 https://github.com/slyrus/epigraph 21:16:46 cool, thanks 21:16:51 can it compute transitive closures? 21:17:04 and seach for paths between given nodes? 21:17:38 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-149-166.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:34 Xach: I'll file a github issue once I have this working on SBCL+Linux  my computer isn't cooperating at the moment. 21:19:41 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Client Quit] 21:19:47 alama: by transitive closure, do you mean finding connected components? 21:19:47 ok, sounds good 21:20:13 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4E7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:37 alama: and there are dfs and bfs implementations (along with a find-longest-paths, if you're into that sort of thing) 21:20:44 slyrus_: no, the graph i'm working with is known to be connected; i'd like to compute the transitive closure of the thing 21:22:04 How do I get the string-represantation of an symbol? 21:22:05 oh, then I don't remember what the transitive closure of a graph is, sorry 21:22:19 churib: STRING is one way. 21:22:40 Xach: sounds simple :P thanks! 21:23:02 is there a reason to use STRING instead of SYMBOL-NAME ? 21:23:27 galdor: if you are given something that might be a string or might be a symbol, STRING will work either way. 21:23:31 galdor: if you expect other string designators 21:23:36 or a character. 21:23:43 ok 21:23:44 thank you 21:23:51 it's also less typing ;D 21:24:30 *antifuchs* is peeved that STRING doesn't take the name-string of pathnames 21:24:44 I understand why. I just always want to use it (: 21:24:49 and then I find out I can't. 21:26:27 alama: I think the transitive closure is trivial to compute using epigraph's graph-distance-matrix or floyd-warshall functions 21:26:41 i'm peeved that INTERN doens't take string-designators 21:26:49 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:53 slyrus_: ok, can you give me a sample invocation of the code that would do that? 21:26:57 (intern :foo :bar) => foo:bar is the way ti _should_ be 21:26:58 nikodemus: yes, that's a huge bummer 21:27:10 (intern (string :foo) :bar) ; blech 21:27:25 alama: no, but see the test code and https://github.com/slyrus/epigraph/blob/master/epigraph.lisp#L808 21:27:33 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.143.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:01 slyrus_: looking at it now, thanks 21:32:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:37:11 chitech_ [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 21:37:28 -!- chitech_ [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Client Quit] 21:38:05 emporas [~emporas@athedsl-414981.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:41:19 ok, my slot-value-using-class stuff is here: https://github.com/nikodemus/SBCL/tree/opt-slot-value-using-class 21:41:28 i'm going to bed now :) 21:41:36 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:42:06 nikodemus: what? that's not going in .46? :) 21:43:06 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:43:39 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:44:36 I'm thinking of specifying an interface where returning zero values has different semantics than returning (values nil nil). Does that make sense? Is there precedent for this? Any problems with that I may not be aware of? 21:44:59 al104792 [~chris@p57A7E31F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:18 Good morning everyone! 21:47:02 hi beach 21:47:09 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:47:19 -!- bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-115-134.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:48:45 rapacity [~prwg@codealife.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:46 -!- rapacity [~prwg@codealife.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:48:46 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 21:55:17 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:55:45 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-213-226.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:57:42 Good morning beach. What is this interaction framework you were dropping hints about? 21:58:47 splittist: Oh, you missed a discussion with mathrick where I foolishly mentioned CLIM3, after which he started telling me what I needed to to in order to call it that (compatibility with everything existing, etc), so I told him I won't call it CLIM3. 21:59:12 *mathrick* grumbles 21:59:22 Hey mathrick! :) 21:59:27 hey beach 22:00:48 I still think you have a needlessly combative perception of that 22:01:03 I know you do. 22:01:06 I dunno, clim2 is already an evolution of clim1, and it's not backwards-compatible either, AIUI. 22:01:08 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:01:56 beach: and I'm still interested in what you think "doing GUI right" means, regardless of whether you call it CLIM3 or something else. Since you must have _some_ notion of what you're looking for even in a research paper, and I'm interested in that, because I also happen to care about doing the (G)UI right 22:02:30 haha, what does any hacker mean when they say "doing X right"? (: 22:03:11 mathrick: I was perfectly honest when I told you that i don't know. I often "discover" what is "right" after trying various directions and failing, and that's the stage I am at at the moment. 22:04:27 mathrick: I am not smart enough to just sit down and think things through, then write a spec of "the right thing". I need to experiment. 22:04:30 beach: OK, I get it now. And I think I'll stay out of this fight (: 22:04:47 I had the impression that a lot of research had already be done in GUI. Didn't they already found how to do it right? 22:04:55 beach: okay, lemme see if I can rephrase it. What metric is "right" measured with? Are you looking from the end user POV? If so, what user? Or are you looking at how the interface feels to program against? Or are you perhaps interested in the amount of work spent programming / user satsifaction ratio? 22:04:58 splittist: That's a good resolution! :) 22:05:06 beach: Dijkstra would hate you :-) 22:05:24 pjb: Actually, he and I got a long pretty well when I was in Austin. 22:05:49 mathrick: I honestly don't know. 22:06:19 *mathrick* always kind of forgets beach is old enough to have known Dijkstra personally when talking over IRC 22:06:21 I'm browsing his EWD (the "easy" ones for now). I'm not sure he's entirely relevant. 22:06:44 I'm pretty sure the "right" way to build a GUI involves a constraint system and dataflow. 22:06:48 beach: hmm. So what prompted you to do research in this area? 22:07:05 pjb: They might have found that already. But for me to be convinced of that, I have to do it over, and arrive precisely at that point. That's just how I prefer doing research. More often than not, I then discover things that can be improved. 22:07:29 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-124-195.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:07:45 beach: I mean, it seems he restricted himself to a very small part of what can be done with/about computers. 22:08:04 mathrick: I think it started when I was looking for some GUI for Gsharp, and I was unhappy with existing ones. Then I discoverd CLIM II. 22:08:06 Hexstream: pure constraint systems tend to generate rather stilted UIs, so you need a system that's the right mix between "DWIM out of the box" and "lemme override and define this aspect" 22:08:30 pjb: Indeed, and I was there the day he sent his first email ever. 22:08:31 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:38 Epic! 22:08:54 beach: I always thought Gsharp included a GUI, but then it's not exactly the app you'd catch me using :) 22:09:01 mathrick: Yeah. There might be some fuzzy logic involved too. You don't want the interface to jump around in weird ways when certain thresholds are reached. 22:09:45 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:10:04 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:05 beach: and CLIM II was righter than other things? (Seriously, when you say "McCLIM app", the two things I think of are Gsharp and Climacs, so I'm surprised there's anything else available for Gsharp) 22:10:06 mathrick: It went though various GUIs, and the current one certainly is not great, but that has nothing to do with the library that is used, and more with my ignorance of interaction design at the time. Now, I have read Cooper's books (at least some). 22:10:20 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:10:50 mathrick: There was something else available some 11 years ago, but I can't even remember what it was. 22:11:22 mathrick: The need for an easier way of writing the GUI for Gsharp prompted my work on McCLIM. 22:11:38 Hexstream: that's one thing, and the other is that the app usually has all kinds of specific small details necessary to treat the values properly. Such as dates that aren't just strings (the common case that's usually covered), IPs, etc. 22:12:14 Yeah, that "presentation/intentional types" stuff. 22:12:38 beach: nonetheless, from my experience (I read Arsac before going to the university), I agree that students should be taught program proofs and program transformation. I'm just not sure it's necessary or useful to go on doing that at later stages. After enough exercises, the maths are compiled in the brains and done automatically in the background while typing the code. 22:12:47 Hexstream: yup. And most non-trivial apps will have some input types that aren't fully covered by stock options 22:12:54 *mathrick* invests in some GUI stock options 22:13:07 beach: is the Cooper you mention Alan Cooper? 22:13:14 tsuru: Yes. 22:14:00 mathrick: That's a given... 22:14:28 Hexstream: you'd be surprised how many libraries tried to do fully declarative UI without knowing that 22:14:49 o_o 22:14:56 pjb: Dijkstra was very controversial and provocative. I get along fine with people like that, and I just take their opinions for what they are, namely provocations designed to make people think, rather than detailed recommendations of what to do. 22:15:09 dkasak [~dkasak@93-138-15-82.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:15:38 Yes. 22:15:44 beach: okay, so at least a part of the right thing is the ease of writing the GUI. Is it just from the programmer's PoV, or do you mean "it's very hard and manual to write an UI that's easy to use and feels adequate"? 22:16:14 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:22 sorry for the barrage of questions, but I'm genuinely interested in everything that wants to get the UI right, so I really want to have an idea what you're after 22:16:24 tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #lisp 22:16:32 even if you don't have the full idea :) 22:16:44 bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:59 mathrick: At the time, I was mostly interested in my own amount of work as a programmer. It is of course best if the GUI library lets you design a UI that is "easy to use" (note the quotation, because everybody doesn't agree on what "easy to use" means. I tend to agree with Cooper). 22:18:01 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:19:33 Short of writing strong AI, I don't think we'll ever get to the point where making an easy-to-use interface is automatable. Though there could be a library of "design patterns" (shuddering at these words) you can "reuse". 22:19:56 mathrick: I found the concept of presentations very appealing, where a view would not directly restrict what the user could do with visible objects, and which meant that the code could be much more modular. 22:20:53 -!- bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:01 Hexstream: well, with strong AI you wouldn't any interface at all 22:22:18 wouldn't need, that is 22:22:23 Hexstream, suppose that depends on what you consider 'easy' 22:22:40 stassats: some form of interface is necessary as long as you don't merge your consciousness with said AI :) 22:23:01 Hexstream: that's why we get the hard part, marrying the automatic part with the ability to override and extend 22:23:27 kamikaza [~kamikaza@92.53.50.179] has joined #lisp 22:23:33 bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:02 beach: yes, I agree that presentations are definitely a step in the right direction. Nevermind whether the CLIMII presentations are done at all right (I'm not able to judge that), the concept is definitely good 22:24:15 pixels really aren't the proper abstraction level for talking with the user 22:24:16 Hard things are well hard. There will always be a limit to how simple you can make things without loosing generality. 22:24:34 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:37 Younder: what other deep wisdoms do you have in store? 22:24:46 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-149-166.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:24:57 "Don't drink and IRC", hopefully. 22:25:13 I'm not drinking.. 22:25:18 i'd say "If you're Younder, don't IRC" 22:25:44 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-246.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 22:26:21 I'm not the one that started this silly discussion and now you are just being offensive. 22:26:28 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@58.230.108.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:04 Younder: the problem is that I have yet to see you say something that's not either patently wrong or painfully obvious. Everyone is allowed to make less insightful comments, but it gets old if you do nothing else 22:28:15 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 22:28:40 I'm back to HTML 5 and CSS 3. If intelligent life should by some miracle visit this channel let me know. 22:31:17 I will 22:31:41 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:10 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 22:41:39 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:41:39 without knowing the full history of that interaction, that seemed unnecessarily harsh. 22:42:50 oconnore: younder is a well-known talker of trash and giver of bad advice. 22:44:39 i see. 22:45:13 SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:10 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:15 tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #lisp 22:46:22 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.146] has joined #lisp 22:48:46 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:16 oconnore: he was banned previously, too 22:50:55 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:51:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:51:52 OT: Anyone know how to rsync a git repo from sourceforge? I'm trying to make backups of series and matlisp git repos, and the recipe on SF's help doesn't work. 22:52:37 rtoym: why do you want to rsync it ? 22:52:39 <|3b|> what would that get you a clone wouldn't? 22:52:40 you can safely clone it 22:53:08 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441425.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod_] 22:53:16 Does that preserve everything, including hooks? 22:53:26 rtoym: anyway, you can use rsync via ssh 22:53:35 rtoym: no, not the hooks 22:54:06 snearch [~snearch@f053000064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:55:56 ssh probably won't work so well from a cron job. 22:56:27 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 23:00:10 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441425.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:00:58 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-246.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:02:04 woah, newLISP 23:02:34 ssh works great from a cron job, if you give it an ssh key 23:02:41 http://lwn.net/Articles/428660 23:06:13 hahaha 23:07:10 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:20 maybe it's that great indeed 23:07:58 dmytrish__ [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:59 -!- dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:08:14 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:08:18 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@250.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:09:17 newLISP: A case study in brand dilution. 23:09:30 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:03 rtoym: just rsync over ssh 23:11:01 y'all laughing about it, but did you research it thoroughly? because that sounds exactly like the reaction of non-lispers to Lisp 23:11:09 Yeah, I guess I can give my cron job my ssh key. Not what I would really like, but not that bad. 23:11:32 well, i didn't research it and i ridicule it too, but i can allow that for myself 23:12:07 it looks like a suitable competitor for lua, indeed. 23:12:28 "sweet and Unixy" 23:13:16 I think I'd rather have Scheme48 with working SCSH library 23:13:18 and it supports cilk-style concurrency...that's a major plus. 23:14:15 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 23:14:52 phil_ [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:56 -!- phil_ [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:15:00 hrm, except it only copied the API, unfortunately, without the work-stealing implementation which is the whole point. 23:15:26 wuj [~wuj@207-172-162-191.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:17 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:16:34 tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #lisp 23:17:59 -!- rien` is now known as rien|away 23:18:09 -!- pers [~user@213.sub-75-226-155.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:18:46 antgreen [~user@12.50.75.111] has joined #lisp 23:19:50 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053000064.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:20:05 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:20:09 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:59 http://lwn.net/Articles/428660 <-- has anyone made a real analysis of their "GC-less GC"? I suspect it's about as great a tool as their contexts, but I lack the GC expertise to say so with confidence 23:21:52 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:22:47 The website says everything is passed by value, no references, so no gc needed. 23:22:52 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-213-36.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 23:23:52 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-213-226.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:24:20 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-34.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:54 Except lists, arrays and strings from and to built-in functions. 23:25:57 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:26:20 mulder [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:46 -!- mulder is now known as Guest13393 23:26:54 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:28:35 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:29:48 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:29:59 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-122-110.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:31:50 -!- kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:33:07 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:33:11 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:34:46 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-213-226.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:34:50 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36:46 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff9331.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:37:28 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:38:30 -!- alama [~alama@2001:888:19f0:2:cabc:c8ff:fea1:9ae5] has quit [Quit: alama] 23:38:57 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:01 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.61] has joined #lisp 23:39:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:39:59 X-02 [~kohei@p1171-ipbf407kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:40:16 -!- X-02 [~kohei@p1171-ipbf407kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 23:42:24 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:44:46 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.61] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:45:50 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.61] has joined #lisp 23:46:31 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:46:49 tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has joined #lisp 23:48:15 timack [~tim@hlfx54-2b-210.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:49:41 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53:48 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.144.171.111] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 23:56:28 -!- al104792 [~chris@p57A7E31F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]