00:00:36 beach: right, and I'm seeing it as a research problem myself as well. Where the problem is defined "how could we possibly tackle the task of writing a viable LispOS, given the set of constraints placed on anything by today's requirements from any such offering" 00:00:44 mathrick: Right now I am trying to figure out how to minimize screen update so that an application can spit out a 1000-page document without having the GUI grind to a halt. If that means GTK+ cannot be used, then so be it. I don't care. But I can assure you that this algorithm that I am working on does not prevent anyone from using Japanese in applications written using it. 00:01:39 mathrick: Fine, we are just going to publish in different conferences or journals. 00:01:53 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 00:02:21 para ltovepreel ok 00:02:38 ikki: ? 00:03:22 beach: fair enough, but if you're speccing out something called "CLIM3", I'd like that to be useful for what I'm looking for, as I'd rather avoid defining CLIM4, or maybe CLIM3a myself because your work is needlessly incompatible 00:03:32 beach: btw, I just got "Programming with Quartz: 2D and PDF Graphics in Mac OS X". looks pretty good (and the drawing routines it describes are apparently very well thought-out) (: 00:03:55 might be interesting to you as a peek into what the competition is doing, if you have the time (: 00:03:57 mathrick: Fine, I won't call it CLIM3. 00:04:49 antifuchs: I shall order it! 00:04:50 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:05:20 it's the one by gelphman and laden 00:06:15 beach: bah, I honestly don't understand why you're seeing me as hostile towards your effort. If I didn't think it was worth it, I wouldn't bother typing so much. I merely want to describe what I see as primary requirements for a good toolkit, because I'd like to be able to use your work if possible, *because I expect it to be good* 00:06:42 I'm not telling you your priorities are wrong or invalid or not important 00:06:57 mathrick: I understand. 00:07:36 mathrick: I don't see you as hostile. I am just not working on anything that resembles what you think I am working on. 00:07:53 beach, sorry wrong window :( 00:08:25 beach: hmm, I'm somewhat confused then 00:08:26 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:11 beach: what kind of algorithm do you have in mind to minimalize screen updates? 00:09:27 mathrick: Perhaps the confusion comes from the fact that I call it CLIM3, which is why I offered to change the name. 00:09:44 beach: what'd you rename it to in this case? 00:10:01 mathrick: I don't know. It doesn't matter because it won't be on Cliki. 00:10:37 beach: okay, now you got me really confused 00:11:34 mathrick: Look, I wouldn't have told anyone about CLIM3 and CLIMatis except that I was explicitly asked about them. Consider this a mistake on my part. I never said anything. I am not working on anything like that. Probably never will. 00:12:04 ok 00:13:06 beach: may I ask what your research interest is then, with the understanding that it's a research project only and not intended for public consumption of any sort? 00:13:19 aka what're you working on these days? 00:13:42 pjb: This is my third attempt. I have a hierarchy of zones, atomic or complex. Complex zones have children. Zones have relative coordinates. A zone clips its children...[to be continued]. 00:13:50 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 00:14:47 mathrick: you're seeing how far you can get on a LispOS with the tools we have right now? 00:14:48 mathrick: I am trying to figure out how to do GUI libraries right, whether that means that they are compatible with existing ones or not. 00:15:04 madnificent: I'm sorry, I can't parse the question 00:15:29 mathrick: do you aim to create a LispOS? 00:15:30 beach: okay, and what's "right" mean? 00:15:44 mathrick: If I knew that, no research would be required. 00:16:14 madnificent: I'd like to yes. I'd like to _have_ one even more, but it doesn't seem to be growing on trees 00:16:27 beach: obviously, but you have to have some notion :) 00:16:33 -!- guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:16:41 beach: for me, "right" would mean the gui sets itself up automatically :-) 00:16:41 pjb: Between repaints, zones can move or otherwise alter their contents. This recent attemps divides the visible area into smaller squares (say 10x10 pixels). First it determines by a traversal of the hierarchy which squares are damaged, then it redraws those squares by a second traversal. 00:16:50 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:51 beach: right could be defined on what you want to achieve with the system (for instance: declaratively defining the views), not on how the final system should work 00:17:16 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 00:17:20 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:38 beach: wouldn't just clip regions be enough? Each zone knowing when they need to update themselves. 00:17:49 beach: reminds me of raph levien's work on microtile arrays 00:17:58 mathrick: so you're estimating the required effort right now and will most likely stop once you've done that? 00:18:08 Xach: I'll look into that. Thanks. 00:18:56 pjb: It is not enough for a region to know when to update itself, because what it covered before may need to be redrawn, and that belongs to a different region. 00:18:59 beach: http://www.levien.com/libart/uta.html is the page i had in min 00:19:00 madnificent: that == estimated the effort? 00:19:00 mind 00:20:08 mathrick: yes 00:20:39 Xach: That does look relevant. Thanks. 00:22:03 -!- littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:22:17 madnificent: not really. I'm not really thinking about it as my current project at this time, and I'm not yet at anything resembling estimating the effort. It's more of idle, albeit somewhat incessant, trying to figure out how it could be done at all given what I know to be necessary/important 00:22:36 pjb: Also, I don't want each region to update, because I want to collapse several region updates into a single one, synchronized with the event loop. 00:23:30 madnificent: so I'm trying to come up with a reasonably detailed sketch of how a 21st century LispOS could be done, with the knowledge we've gained since the last time we had any LispOSs 00:24:05 mathrick: I hope to see a writeup on that sometime soon 00:24:41 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 00:25:15 madnificent: a mini-writeup of "I know these things are absolutely necessary to solve" is http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/fh99v/would_it_be_possible_write_an_entire_os_in_lisp/c1gelry , in case you have missed it 00:25:17 beach: well, usually GUI separate the updating of the views from the updating of the screen. The objects in the view hierarchy inform the graphic system what region they update (by default, the region of each view that is being updated, but each view can restrict it). The updates are made in a back-stage bitmap, and the uppdated regions are cummulated for a separate update of the screen. 00:25:26 though it's all questions and not many answers 00:26:20 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.144.6] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:26:47 mathrick: I've seen that one :) but thanks already 00:27:46 pjb: OK, let me give you a scenario. As a result of an even, the application moves an area from a previously hidden place to a visible place, but during the processing of the same even, that same area is moved out of the visible place again. If the individual areas inform the graphics system, I will update a part of the screen unnecessarily. 00:27:52 madnificent: if you have any ideas/experiences in this regard, I'm obviously very interested :) 00:30:08 beach: yes, moving a view means that the views that are behind it are informed they need to update the region that is being discovered. 00:30:14 You might be interested in: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaViewsGuide/Introduction/Introduction.html 00:30:31 tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has joined #lisp 00:30:57 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.114.206.34.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 00:31:13 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 00:31:39 mathrick: I'm interested, to say the least. The thread received some extra comments, reading them now :) 00:32:15 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 00:32:26 madnificent: my interest has been rather accelerated by the fact what I use is so horrible and getting worse 00:32:48 so if I have to spend time getting back anything usable anyway, I might just as well spend it building someting in Lisp 00:32:53 pjb: Also, if individual areas inform the graphics system, then they have to know their absolute coordinates. This is one of the reasons for the quadratic behavior of McCLIM, because each time some individual area is moved, it triggers a complete calculation of the absolute coordinates of lots of areas. 00:33:04 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.23] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:33:47 mathrick: well yes, I do have a suggestion actually 00:33:51 Yes, in Cocoa (OpenStep), the views keep their coordinate with respect to their window. 00:33:55 *mathrick* listens 00:34:16 mathrick: lisp isn't that widely used for writing graphical apps, so ignore all the gui stuff for now 00:34:19 littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has joined #lisp 00:34:30 ok 00:35:08 pjb: I added that document to my reading list. Thanks! 00:35:31 madnificent: lisp was one of the first languages used to write graphical applications and graphical systems. 00:35:34 mathrick: create the linux kernel with a way of running process-like things on it. I guess that would mean that you could use a modified sblc that allows you to load/unload specific libraries (as to clean up the memory of unused applications). 00:35:52 *mathrick* tries to get Document Examiner to search *all* documentation, not just the snippet currently showing, and fails 00:36:10 pjb: I didn't say it was bad for GUI stuff and didn't mean to imply it either 00:36:17 madnificent: #1 requirement on my list is NOT LINUX 00:36:32 madnificent: indeed. We're trying to describe a curve along history ;-) 00:36:34 Linux is horrible to work with, and I don't want to base anything on it 00:36:38 haha, good luck with that 00:37:04 mathrick: right. But it's a good federator of device drivers. 00:37:14 antifuchs: y'know, L4 is being used in something upwards of 1b devices :) 00:37:29 -!- Blkt [~Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-34-26-111.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:44 pjb: yes, I have no problem gutting it for drivers if I can do it sensibly. There's an L4 project in fact which does just that 00:37:57 but I refuse to base anything on Linux as such 00:38:02 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 00:38:15 mathrick: sure, but then linux is the operating system with the best peripheral support around (: 00:38:21 madnificent: and anyway, I don't think Linux is a good match for anything of the sort 00:38:22 mathrick: I don't really care baout the kernel. However, you should get a lisp running on top of some kernel and make it possible to load various applications. If the first version only allows you to host web-pages then that'd be a first big step. However, finding a way to handle all the running apps in the system is a first step that will help you gain traction. 00:38:22 beach: of course, Apple documentation describes the API from the point of view of the client of the object library. You want to infer their implementation. But it's transparent enough. 00:38:26 and I believe its power management isn't that bad either 00:38:49 madnificent: yes, that's exactly my thinking. I need to figure out the basics 00:39:24 madnificent: the first step is figure out how to marry process separation (however you define it) with the LispOS idea of everything living in the same image 00:39:32 mathrick: I don't think the kernel really matters in the sense that you'll want to build an abstraction on top of it. Something that makes it less bad to work with the kernel. I guess it will be an ongoing effort, regardless of the kernel you choose (I prefer a bsd kernel though). 00:39:43 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.28] has joined #lisp 00:39:44 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:20 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 00:40:25 madnificent: I don't want monolithic kernels in the Unix tradition. I'm kinda interested in L4, because it's so small and not much of anything itself 00:40:32 pjb: If I have any questions, I'll just ask you! 00:40:35 it basically gives you an IPC mechanism and an address space 00:40:41 which is a good start 00:40:42 beach: you're welcome to do so! 00:40:47 mathrick: and the practical case of running that somewhere! If you can do that, then I may set up a small server to toy with it anyways... scripts will likely emerge in a similar manner as they did in unix. 00:41:23 madnificent: plus there's been a large amount of research with L4, including things like "how to gut a linux kernel running in L4 to expose its drivers to other L4 clients" 00:42:01 and L4/Darwin, which is stale, but supposedly includes an IOKit port 00:42:43 if there were a way to separate just that, and with sensible compatibility, it could even be possible simply to yank drivers from OSX :) 00:43:01 mathrick: I prefer micro kernels as well. However, is that the absolute essense? What would you need to simply get to a starting point where you can run various lisp applications in the system? In a minimal effort, that is. 00:43:10 *madnificent* will not run it on a mac though 00:43:10 -!- littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:43:28 oh, I wouldn't touch a mac with a pole. But stealing their drivers I'm perfectly happy with 00:44:14 I want to abandon my hand-rolled markup stuff in nuclblog for markdown. Is cl-markdown the way to go? 00:44:25 slyrus: works for us (: 00:44:28 cool 00:44:35 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:44:41 madnificent: I think that's exactly why L4 is better, because Linux has many ideas about how things work. L4 doesn't, it just gives you the basicest tools. So you'd have to spend a lot of work unlearning linux about things like processes, which isn't necessary in L4 00:44:43 apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has joined #lisp 00:44:46 also, yay markdown 00:44:52 also the hierarchical address spaces look useful 00:45:24 mathrick: I don't know L4, so I don't know what it would offer 00:46:26 madnificent: address spaces in L4 can be managed recursively, with each "pager" handing out memory to its clients, and itself referring to a parent pager 00:46:41 address space 0 is simply physical memory 00:46:58 mathrick: in terms of access rights, it would be nice if users would have a bunch of capabilities. They could then explicitly give each of the capabilities to the application and as such have a fairly decenst understanding of what resources the application can use (vague, I know. The main difference is that the user could explicitly say what an app is allowed to use). 00:47:12 -!- guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:47:25 -!- yan__ is now known as yan_ 00:47:47 littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has joined #lisp 00:48:02 madnificent: my idea is that you'd have the world boot, and then each Lisp "process" would get mapped to a copy-on-write copy of pages with things like system CLOS, etc. So you can't bork things for anyone else, but generally the things that aren't changed are shared 00:48:28 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:48:35 mathrick: briliant 00:48:56 and if you couple W7 with it, you could have a process obtain a token permitting it to, for instance, muck around with system pages, so you can still hack the system _if you know what you're doing_ 00:49:16 so none of the "oops, I just broke CLOS, let's reboot" 00:50:02 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-55-179.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:50:19 mathrick: so, where does the problem lie? L4 exists (and wikipedia is nice about it), and you can start out with a 'fresh' lisp instance with a standard image (that's copy on boot) for now. It will not be what you want of it from the start, but at least it will run 00:50:35 mathrick: also: will things like hunchentooth run on it? Are the IO libs supported? 00:51:24 *antifuchs* bites his tongue 00:51:34 antifuchs: at least /msg me then :) 00:51:38 madnificent: depends. For things that assume a POSIX environment, no, you'd have to build it, which misses the point. 00:51:49 * hunchentoot 00:52:16 madnificent: I was going to make a sly comment about how of course, everything works in unwritten software (: 00:52:37 madnificent: although later on you can piggyback, say, a BSD kernel somewhere. That's one of the good things about being a microkernel 00:52:57 antifuchs: :) 00:53:24 well, it should at least spit out some usefull stuff in order to get users for it. 00:53:41 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 00:53:57 madnificent: right now I was spending my time getting Genera to boot and work. I can probably move to wasting time on getting L4 to run :) 00:53:57 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-195-88.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:54:54 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-195-88.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:55:01 also my current knowledge about the inner workings of SBCL is close to non-existent 00:56:33 mathrick: couldn't you get away with creating an image to load at start and create a new sbcl instance every time an application is launched? Then communicate between the applications by sockets? That would get you started. You can then clean all ugly hacks away step by step. 00:56:44 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-55-179.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:11 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.118.188.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:57:23 supposes he probably shouldn't throw stones but finds it amusing that a markdown system designed for a documentation-system has such lousy documentation 00:57:28 um... /me tahat is 00:57:30 that 00:57:59 ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-76-78-229.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:02 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:59:51 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:08 lispm [~lispm@f054053061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:00:11 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BA5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:00:41 -!- lispm [~lispm@f054053061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:00:48 lispm [~lispm@f054053061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:04:10 -!- littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:04:16 flyfish [~liuguangz@zz-12-6-a8.bta.net.cn] has joined #lisp 01:05:02 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 01:05:12 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:05:26 madnificent: L4 has no sockets as such. It also doesn't have "applications" (or processes in the Linux sense), that's a much higher-level concept 01:05:53 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-119-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:58 but it gives you extremely cheap IPC; L4 basically *is* IPC + a bit of memory management 01:07:07 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:08:00 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:49 *p_l|backup* personally would love to see something closer to a mixture of PlanB/Octopus and Android, which is language agnostic (Plan9 influence there) 01:10:57 mathrick: I have no idea how much work it would take to get SBCL running on that :) 01:11:16 no idea either 01:11:24 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 01:11:58 madnificent: probably not that much 01:11:59 but given there's a bare metal SBCL port, and that SBCL basically wrestles out a large chunk of address space from the OS to be able to manage it itself, it might not be horrible 01:12:40 littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has joined #lisp 01:12:52 p_l|backup: what's octopus, and do you mean that android is language-agnostic? 01:13:17 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:13:21 mathrick: Plan9/B/Octopus is language agnostic 01:13:24 come to think of it, what's planB? 01:13:44 mathrick: are you acquaintained with Plan9? 01:14:12 p_l|backup: somewhat. But I don't think I like files as the basic data structure for everything 01:14:31 it's a crappy abstraction, but Unix can't handle anything better 01:14:36 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:22 mathrick: Plan 9 uses filesystem trees and avoids the issue of ioctl and similar. Couple that with a more advanced wire format... 01:15:30 (that is, format found inside the files_ 01:15:32 ) 01:15:49 p_l|backup: how does it avoid ioctls exactly? 01:15:52 or do it like Spring, which also had a tree-like form, but used IPC 01:15:58 mathrick: it simply doesn't have them 01:16:11 yes, but what does it use instead? 01:16:21 file API is restricted to create/delete/open/read/write/seek/close 01:16:46 p 01:16:59 p_l|backup: that'd be cool 01:17:02 the classic use of ioctl for serial port setting is replaced by writing apropriate setting to a conf file 01:17:38 this gave it a superior ability to mash together various parts, including tricks like using mount() to connect a remote sound card :) 01:18:24 I can't see it resulting in *good* networked audio experience 01:18:45 Plan B added some tools, among them a special namespace system, which played with the idea of "personal mainframe" (your main computer) and various terminal devices thta could interact with it, but all being *smart*, not *dumb* terminals 01:18:59 am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has joined #lisp 01:19:01 we can't even get remote FS right, and that doesn't have the same latency issues audio does 01:19:08 evening 01:19:14 hi mducharme 01:19:17 mathrick: it worked for planB. And of course, you can implement a different system that would export the same API 01:19:19 I can't figure out how to fix this code 01:19:30 mathrick: 9P (Plan9's fs protocol) works quite fine :) 01:19:40 anyway, brb 01:20:01 (defun create-list-of-pmpart (master-score &rest scores) (list `(list (,@(score-to-pmpart master-score) ,@(system::flat-once `(,@(mapcar #'score-to-pmpart scores)))) ,@(extract-part-settings master-score)))) 01:20:02 p_l|backup: maybe that'd be a good way to export LispOS functionality to non-Lisp components, dunno 01:20:13 lisppaste: help 01:20:13 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 01:20:19 mducharme: please use that 01:20:25 I put it all on one line 01:20:30 so I would not have to 01:20:30 heh 01:20:42 it's unreadable this way, and makes it harder to annotate 01:20:51 ok 01:21:38 -!- guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:22:08 mducharme pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119674 01:23:05 I am a bit new to all this 01:23:09 mducharme: I don't know what you want to do, but (list `(...)) is almost certainly not what you meant 01:23:22 I'm trying to merge a few lists together 01:23:34 so that their elements are on the same level 01:23:56 the examples I saw of doing that all had ` with ,@ 01:24:21 unless there is a better way I do not know of 01:24:55 mducharme: how about (mapcan #'alexandria:flatten lists)? 01:25:47 mducharme: could you add a few examples of input and output of that function? I dun't understand what your goal is. 01:26:28 ok, here is my goal 01:26:33 currently I have this working: 01:27:47 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 01:28:42 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-219.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:28:44 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-192-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:28:58 mducharme pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119676 01:29:13 mducharme: you can annotate existing pastes 01:29:58 mducharme: what's the difference? They look the same to me 01:30:07 the brackets 01:30:45 ... 01:30:55 I need for the score-to-pmpart and the mapcar to be in a list 01:31:09 within what I have 01:31:25 mducharme: please explain what your input is, and what the structure you want the output to be is 01:31:28 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 01:31:45 ok 01:31:56 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:32:13 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-119-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 01:35:05 I am trying to figure out how to write this best 01:35:36 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:38:32 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:51 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 01:39:24 mducharme: try to give a simplified example with the same structure, such as "I want to transform ((a b) (c d) (e f)) into (a b c d e f)" 01:39:52 so it's apparent what the operation is supposed to be 01:42:34 -!- lispm [~lispm@f054053061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 01:43:08 mducharme annotated #119676 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119676#1 01:43:30 -!- guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:43:53 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:32 mathrick does that help? 01:44:56 the second input is a list of scores, the number of scores in that list can be anywhere from 2-? 01:47:37 hrm let me look for some easier way to symbolize it 01:48:33 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:51:33 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:51:55 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:02 I have: ((x)) and (((a))((b))((c?))) and (z) I want to get: (((x)(a)(b)(c?))z)) 01:52:42 does that make sense? 01:53:10 mducharme: no. First, your last sexp is not well paren-balanced. 01:53:32 Otherwise, you might try: (cons (cons a b) c) 01:53:40 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:54:01 oops: (((x)(a)(b)(c?))z) 01:55:14 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:42 mducharme: you have a problem in your problem statement. 01:55:53 One way to obtain (((x)(a)(b)(c?))z) is to evaluate '(((x)(a)(b)(c?))z) 01:56:26 On the other hand, if you can express your problem statement clearly, most often you can implement the solution trivially from it. 01:58:56 mducharme: why does each of your arguments have a different level of nesting? 01:59:10 you have 2, 3 and 1 level of parens 02:00:09 (cons (cons a b) c) happens to be (acons a b c) too, but since c doesn't look like an a-list, I wouldn't advise to use acons. 02:01:09 mducharme: also, it would help if you'd put names on things. That would come automatically if you wrote a real problem statement. 02:01:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 02:03:21 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.120] has joined #lisp 02:05:15 guaqua [gua@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 02:05:28 ok pjb 02:05:39 here is what I have.. I have a function that returns a score object 02:05:46 and I have a function that returns a list of score objects 02:06:18 <|3b|> hmm, (defun a (b) ((lambda (c) (aref c b)))) seems to confuse sbcl 02:06:24 and I have a 3rd function that returns instrument information in a list 02:07:02 I need all the score objects to be placed in the same list, the first function and the second function 02:07:47 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:05 ((score object 1 from function that returns one score object) (score object 2 from list-of-score-objects function) (score object 3 from list-of-score-objects function) (score object 4 etc) instrument information not in list) 02:08:27 that's what I want 02:08:40 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:08:41 mducharme: you can do that with the function CONS. 02:09:04 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night] 02:09:13 (cons (get-one-score) (get-other-scoreos)) --> new-list-of-scores 02:09:57 Oops, I missed the instrument information: you wan to add it at the end of the list of scores. 02:10:10 |3b|: I think you confused yourself 02:10:14 gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:32 So: (append (cons (get-one-score) (get-other-scores)) (list (get-instrument-information))) 02:10:39 <|3b|> mathrick: no, i realize it is buggy, but that doesn't justify an error from the compiler 02:10:44 if it's ((lambda ())), it will execute the lambda in the function position 02:10:51 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-31-120.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 02:10:55 *mathrick* checks the output 02:11:10 Notice that the structure of list you get by ((score ... not in list) is different than (((x)(a)(b)(c?))z). 02:11:17 <|3b|> mathrick: "The value NIL is not of type SB-C::NODE." during compilation is not a valid response :) 02:11:52 <|3b|> it is supposed to be calling the lambda, with insufficient args in this case 02:12:36 right, it's bogus 02:14:15 mducharme: ah, your instrument information is in a list, and you want in the toplevel of the result so: (append (cons (get-one-score) (get-other-scores)) (get-instrument-information-in-list)) 02:16:50 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:16:52 -!- gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:17:45 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 02:19:50 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:21:29 -!- illumina` [~user@pool-71-114-7-169.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:21:54 gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:10 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:25:30 -!- coldnew [~coldnew@ymu041-045.ym.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:26:22 oudeis [~oudeis@192.156.198.62] has joined #lisp 02:33:54 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 02:38:50 What's the recommended lisp for Windows? 02:38:57 antifuchs: have you run into problems with cl-markdown and crlf? 02:39:10 Quadrescence: I'd advise first clisp, since it runs well on all plateforms. 02:39:52 <|3b|> ccl also seems popular for use on windows 02:40:07 Quadrescence: then depending on specific needs, you may try other implementations. Things evolve fast, so I couldn't say which one is currently better for what purpose. 02:40:11 on MS-windows 02:44:34 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:46:18 |3b|: perhaps it's an instance of https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/551227 02:46:33 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 02:48:16 nah, doesn't seem, because hot-plugging nyef's patch doesn't work 02:48:59 Quadrescence: if ccl really works on windows then I second the recommendation for ccl 02:48:59 <|3b|> yeah, was wondering about that one 02:49:21 ccl works really on windows 02:49:23 <|3b|> they are probably at least related, but hard to say if the causes are the same or not 02:49:47 :) 02:50:12 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@192.156.198.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:51:31 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-195-88.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 02:51:32 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:52:18 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:22 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:07 while poking at it, ((lambda (&optional (a c)) a) 10) doesn't produce a nice warning 02:56:33 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:58:50 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:59:00 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:00:16 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:02:46 oudeis [~oudeis@192.156.198.62] has joined #lisp 03:04:35 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:33 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.86.28] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:50 hrm pjb 03:05:53 that did something really weird 03:06:06 I now have a lot more data than I should 03:08:34 -!- apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:10:17 my number of records has doubled actually 03:11:48 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:12:02 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:12:02 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:12:10 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:37 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 03:13:13 oh crap I'm stupid 03:13:29 who isn't? 03:14:28 *stassats`* isn't smart enough to understand IR1 03:14:53 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:16:50 panike [~nwp@ppp-70-226-166-223.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:36 |3b|: would you report that bug, or should i take the privilege? 03:20:21 mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:35 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:20:37 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-124-195.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:23:10 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:24:12 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 03:26:22 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:51 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:27:41 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:33:34 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 03:40:14 How can I use (multiple-value-bind) if I don't want the first value(s) but ones that follow? 03:40:38 (multiple-value-bind (first ones that follow) foo (declare (ignore first))) 03:41:04 (ignore) huh, thanks 03:41:18 see also: ignorable 03:41:34 See where? 03:41:42 around! 03:41:53 clhs ignore 03:42:10 well, around it is 03:42:48 Alright, wasn't sure if there's any place to always check first for such things 03:42:59 clhs is that place 03:43:20 but, specbot is slacking off again 03:43:45 I googled it, thanks again 03:43:58 Zhivago: hello 03:43:59 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@192.156.198.62] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:45:08 oudeis [~oudeis@192.156.198.62] has joined #lisp 03:45:16 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:46:40 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@192.156.198.62] has quit [Client Quit] 03:47:05 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.238] has joined #lisp 03:47:14 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:53:11 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:58:34 oudeis [~oudeis@192.156.198.62] has joined #lisp 04:01:57 on second thought... are there any other CL markdown libraries? 04:03:08 bbl 04:03:39 I have latest sbcl (1.0.45.33) w/ a custom dumped core deadlock on in-package forms, what gives? 04:04:51 adeht pasted "sbcl deadlock" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119678 04:06:20 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:15 -!- cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:08:03 -!- littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:11:44 -!- panike [~nwp@ppp-70-226-166-223.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 04:13:04 adeht: how did you generate that core? 04:15:32 apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has joined #lisp 04:16:25 adeht annotated #119678 "make-core script" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119678#1 04:16:36 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:16:43 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:17:13 that's interesting. linux? 04:17:29 Linux sneeze 2.6.37-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Jan 29 20:00:33 CET 2011 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux 04:18:39 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.72] has joined #lisp 04:19:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:24:02 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:24:53 Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.102] has joined #lisp 04:27:28 i've just started reading "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" 04:27:41 i'm just on page 11.. so maybe this will become clearer over time.. 04:28:14 but here it says "That primary method for 'refresh' is inherited by the classes 'window-with-border' and 'window-with-label'." 04:28:31 but i thought that methods were linked to generic functions 04:28:37 how can a class inherit them? 04:28:42 pattern: they are.. it's just a manner of speech 04:28:57 so there's no inheritence going on? 04:29:16 pattern: the inheritance is of the classes 04:29:34 but what the classes inherit is just slots, right? or do they also inherit methods? 04:29:39 pattern: the method is applicable to instances of both 04:29:45 i see 04:31:17 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:31:20 so if you define a method for the 'refresh' generic function to handle 'window' classes, then if 'window-with-border' and 'window-with-label' inherit from the 'window' class, then the 'refresh' generic function will automatically work for instances of 'window-with-border' and 'window-with-label' ? 04:31:53 yes 04:31:58 cool 04:32:02 thanks, adeht 04:32:46 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 04:37:40 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 04:41:52 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hmznezpensnasxwe] has joined #lisp 04:46:42 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:06 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.31.158] has joined #lisp 04:49:08 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:50:16 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@192.156.198.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:50:55 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:51:23 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:46 littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has joined #lisp 04:54:27 Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 05:05:38 -!- pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [Quit: pabst] 05:10:16 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:10:48 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:02 -!- littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:27:21 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-hmznezpensnasxwe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:28:29 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-siinloqybplvnhxl] has joined #lisp 05:31:18 scode [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 05:31:52 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:32:07 rwallace [~rwallace@79.97.142.152] has joined #lisp 05:32:26 -!- scode_ [~scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:32:36 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 05:32:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 05:32:36 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 05:33:13 Hi all, a style question: I want to define a function that calls several local helper functions. To avoid cluttering the global namespace, I'm thinking of using the labels directive to put them all within the body of the larger function... 05:33:28 Is this considered good style, or are there any caveats I should look out for? 05:35:07 there is no "global namespace" 05:35:35 Well, whatever is the correct term for what I'm calling the global namespace :) 05:36:01 Why not use unexported symbols for names? 05:36:15 Zhivago, you mean with the package system? 05:36:22 Yes. 05:37:24 I've tried that, and I found I got errors because of defining/creating/referring to symbols that needed to be accessed from outside the package, and weren't. To be sure, these were coding errors on my part, but... 05:37:40 Export those. :) 05:37:52 When I accidentally duplicate a function name, I get a compile time warning, whereas when I make the above mistake with packages, I get silent wrong answers at run time... 05:37:55 Or use a::b 05:38:10 hmm anyone familiar with curses? 05:38:16 So I'd rather just put everything into the global namespace than use packages, duplicate function names are much more benign error 05:38:20 You can use labels to do what you want, but it can make debugging and testing difficult. 05:38:26 There is no global namespace. 05:38:35 Well, whatever is the correct term for what I'm calling the global namespace :) 05:38:38 Each package defines its own namespace. 05:38:54 Make debugging and testing difficult, ah, that's the sort of caveats I was wondering about. How exactly does it do that? 05:39:14 A package can be thought of as a mapping from string to symbol. 05:39:25 So what I'm calling the global namespace, what would you call it, the default package? 05:39:32 Current package. 05:40:15 Well, if you never issue any instructions to the contrary, the current package will always be what it was to start with, wouldn't that be called the default package? 05:40:34 kushal [~kdas@117.201.96.27] has joined #lisp 05:40:34 -!- kushal [~kdas@117.201.96.27] has quit [Changing host] 05:40:34 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:41:27 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:42:55 rwallace: you should learn how to use packages 05:44:00 adeht, as far as I can see, the worst consequence of not using packages is that when I accidentally duplicate a function name I get a compile time error. This is quite a benign error, much more so than the alternative. Am I missing something? 05:44:09 rwallace: I use local functions when they save me passing the same arguments just to get them someplace (sometimes special variables or a new datastructure would be the right solution for that, however) 05:45:18 ... now that I think of it, in this particular case local functions would also do that! So I want to use them for that reason, so that decides this case. But in general, you wouldn't use them just for namespace reasons? 05:46:37 rwallace: nope 05:46:51 Fair enough, thanks! 05:47:38 Also, do I understand correctly that the only difference between flet and labels is that labels allows functions to be mutually recursive? 05:49:19 rwallace: doesn't have anything to do with recursion, really 05:49:21 littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has joined #lisp 05:50:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:33 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm says 'It is not possible to define recursive functions with flet. labels can be used to define mutually recursive functions.' 05:50:41 rwallace: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 05:51:07 Great minds think alike :-) 05:51:55 that is just one implication.. (labels ((foo () (bar)) (bar () 42)) (foo)) uses labels-specific feature but is not recursive in any way 05:52:21 ah, good point. Okay, thanks! 05:52:38 flet can be used to add transparent wrappers. 05:52:54 Transparent wrappers, how do you mean? 05:54:01 (flet ((foo (a) (bar (foo a)))) (foo b)) 05:54:15 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:54:25 oh! Right, that makes sense 05:55:28 So that's why you want to keep flet in your vocabulary, and not just always standardize on labels 05:55:48 ... which is relevant, because I was just about to write a macro wrapper in terms of labels only :-) 05:56:21 Liera [~Liera@123.20.62.22] has joined #lisp 05:56:27 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:58:02 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:33 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 05:59:34 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:04 adu_ [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:14 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:03:23 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-192-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:14 -!- adu_ [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:06:20 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.72.187.49] has 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[~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:29:46 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24E6E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:30:22 littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has joined #lisp 06:31:41 pnq [~nick@ACA24E6E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:14 -!- paul0 [~paul0@189.114.206.34.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:34:59 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 06:37:46 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:38:59 HG` [~HG@xdslek153.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:41:30 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 06:42:08 hello 06:42:47 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:42:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:43:31 is there a function that retruns T comparing (make-symbol "EN") and :en or should I use symbol-name for :en ? 06:44:05 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 06:45:21 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA24E6E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:45:49 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:46:16 string= 06:47:20 adeht, so you suggest not to use symbols here, but string 06:47:21 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47:29 *strings 06:47:33 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:47:37 pabst [~anonymous@70-36-139-205.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:00 no, it accepts string designators, which include symbols 06:48:04 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@59.Red-81-32-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:48:15 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:22 adeht, thx 06:49:46 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:54:26 -!- sabalaba 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joined #lisp 08:06:48 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:10:52 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-esevjrlydbmobyjn] has joined #lisp 08:11:49 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:13:17 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:14:12 sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:16:25 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-155-122.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:18:50 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-230-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:19:31 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.9.173] has joined #lisp 08:19:58 -!- longshot_ is now known as Guest62172 08:22:12 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:22:23 Good afternoon everyone! 08:22:40 Good morning! ^.^ 08:30:39 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.61.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:32:20 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:40:05 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:40:17 -!- pabst [~anonymous@70-36-139-205.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:41:02 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:41:40 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:20 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-26-24.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:06 pabst [~anonymous@70-36-139-205.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:36 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.160.158] has joined #lisp 08:45:00 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:36 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:46:26 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-87-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:46:45 I already have defined a metaclass, I don't remember what I have to do to allow slot definitions like (on-click :accessor on-click :initarg :on-click :html-attr t) in a defclass 08:47:08 I mean, allow :html-attr t 08:50:21 mmm, I think I've found it 08:50:49 slyrus: markdown is passed unparsed to your RSS feed 08:52:11 Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 08:52:44 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:34 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:35 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:05:42 kiuma: you need to define your own slot-definition classes, and a method on compute-effective-slot-definition 09:06:19 Zhivago: i wish you would talk to me 09:06:25 leers [~chatzilla@c-68-40-9-146.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:01 -!- leers [~chatzilla@c-68-40-9-146.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:08:05 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:09:13 little: Why? 09:09:26 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12:42 -!- littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:13:33 littlerue [~horse@118.82.154.61] has joined #lisp 09:15:13 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.201.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:15:39 nikodemus, thx 09:15:50 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:16:29 Is there a way to write an exception handler or whatever the appropriate term would be, so that when an error occurs, it bypasses the debugger, prints a stack trace and exits? 09:16:50 See conditions. 09:16:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:16:55 leers [~leers@c-68-40-9-146.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:31 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:04 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:18:10 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:19:00 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.201.174] has joined #lisp 09:22:38 setmeaway [setmeaway3@183.106.96.22] has joined #lisp 09:22:54 rwallace: yes, look up handler-case in the hyperspec 09:22:54 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:59 you probably want something like 09:23:21 Zhivago: hey 09:23:27 Zhivago: how are you this evening? 09:24:05 (handler-case (do-stuff) (error (e) (quit))) 09:24:33 -!- Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:24:40 -!- pabst [~anonymous@70-36-139-205.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: pabst] 09:24:52 Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 09:24:55 sharps, yeah, that looks along the right lines from what I can see... is there a way to make it print a stack trace, though? 09:25:09 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:25:17 Zhivago: have you worked your way through SICP? 09:25:42 rwallace: stack traces are implementation-dependant, but I think there's a compatibility library 09:25:57 Fair enough, thanks 09:26:14 can't remember what it's called, though :/ 09:26:48 Also, as I understand it, quit isn't standard, the standard way to exit the program immediately is with throw, and a catch wrapped around the outside? 09:26:53 pabst [~anonymous@70-36-139-205.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:55 check your implementation docs, there's probably some (stack-trace) function or something else you can call 09:27:11 that would do it, yes 09:27:26 or something like (return-from main), maybe 09:27:33 -!- leers [~leers@c-68-40-9-146.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Chicks dig it] 09:27:41 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:27:50 however, I think most lisps have something useful bound to (cl-user:quit) 09:28:00 Right 09:28:44 leers [~leers@c-68-40-9-146.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:47 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 09:32:52 mcguitan83 [~user@2001:660:330f:a4:219:d1ff:fe7d:3bfe] has joined #lisp 09:36:16 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:37:13 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 09:39:25 kiuma: thx for what? 09:39:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:40:26 -!- mishoo__ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:40:30 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:41:01 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 09:41:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:41:38 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:45:22 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:46:00 pchrist 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is here? 09:59:31 jyj: Lots of people. 09:59:36 jyj: As always. 10:00:00 jyj: hi 10:00:34 hi baby 10:01:16 jyj: You must be new here, right? 10:01:30 what is lisp? programing language? 10:02:06 yes, it's the first time for me to visit #lisp 10:02:59 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.236] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 10:03:33 I'd like a URL which outputs JSON. 10:03:53 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:04:07 chrnybo`: file:/// ? You could even influence the data within! 10:04:49 flip214: What a wonderful opportunity! 10:05:39 chrnybo`: http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/developer-calendar@google.com/public/full?alt=json 10:05:45 compare to c, lisp is shit. 10:05:46 from http://code.google.com/intl/de-DE/apis/gdata/docs/json.html 10:05:48 flip214: I'd like to see how others format their headers, how much whitespace they use around the payload and such. 10:05:52 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:05 chrnybo`: well, try the google api? 10:06:17 flip214: will do. 10:06:19 oh sorry, my link was for de_DE 10:06:42 -!- jyj [~jyj@124.254.3.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:06:45 jyj: how long did you try lisp? I just ask because you seem well-informed. 10:06:58 too late 10:07:29 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:07:36 we all will miss this enlightening discussion that never happened 10:07:48 too late for him, you mean? perhaps 10:07:51 what a pity 10:08:20 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.201.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:09:40 flip214: The language does not matter. Thanks for the link. 10:10:07 I just wondered whether I should send you a lmgtfy link instead ;-) 10:10:11 can someone kindly tell me what would be a good way to achieve this http://paste.lisp.org/+2KCF 10:11:31 flip214: No prob, go ahead and educate me. 10:11:52 Liera` [~Liera@123.21.168.150] has joined #lisp 10:12:14 -!- Liera [~Liera@123.20.62.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:12:26 chrnybo`: read-line and split-sequence 10:13:03 and pairlis 10:13:45 sharps: I think you meant spradnyesh with your answer 10:14:07 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.201.174] has joined #lisp 10:14:17 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 10:14:26 ah, sorry 10:14:27 I did 10:14:32 sharps: i figured out read-line and split-sequence. didn't know about pairlis 10:14:45 thanks for the pointer; that should help :) 10:14:51 closer-mop:class-default-initargs returns a list of initargs like (:RENDER-CONDITION NIL #). What's the third argument ? 10:15:13 -!- gko [~gko@60-251-71-121.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:15:35 clhs pairlis 10:15:45 hmm, bot botched 10:17:05 it seems something has happened to minion :( 10:17:31 spradnyesh: It's not clear how the list should be from your example 10:17:37 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:48 I think it's a list of headers and data for each header 10:18:02 each sub-list is a row 10:18:35 There why are there ... in each sub-list? 10:18:35 actually, spradnyesh: maybe a csv parser could help? unless that's what you're writing 10:18:56 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:18:58 drdo: the ... means that the list continues 10:18:59 it's an example, those show where more data would be 10:19:04 spradnyesh: I know 10:19:09 ... doesn't parse as a lisp symbol, it's not valid syntax 10:19:10 That's why i don't understand it 10:19:18 What should it continue with? 10:19:38 k, lemme put it this way. the file contains 1 row of header, and several rows of data 10:19:45 header data pairs from any other columns, I assume 10:19:47 the columns are separated 10:20:09 ok, i get it 10:20:10 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:20:16 i want to build something like the db in http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html 10:20:20 so that i can query it 10:20:24 -!- pabst [~anonymous@70-36-139-205.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: pabst] 10:20:34 drdo: it looks like csv, a plain-text spreadsheet format 10:20:42 actually, not csv 10:20:49 tab seperated 10:20:50 sharps: that's correct, except instead of comma 10:21:05 ok, right 10:21:49 so, i want to build a db that i can query. i was thinking of creating a list of plists 10:21:52 but dunno how 10:22:38 hmm 10:22:53 for key value lookup, I tend to go straight for hash tables 10:23:07 since there're are about 50 or so columns (which info is already available in the header row), i don't want to write a 'make-cd' like in http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html 10:23:19 sharps: that's an idea, lemme look that up 10:23:25 thanks again for the pointer 10:23:44 make-hash-table, gethash, (setf gethash) 10:23:48 I think those are the main ones 10:24:16 actually, that might not help 10:24:25 oh? 10:24:28 i don't see how using hash-table or plist is different 10:24:30 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@zz-12-6-a8.bta.net.cn] has left #lisp 10:24:31 coz i don't want to query/search inside the whole table 10:24:35 they both map keys to values 10:24:37 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:24:42 i want to go through the table row-by-row 10:24:56 and pull the data in a particular column 10:25:02 ok 10:25:11 sorry, my meaning of 'search/query' earlier was misleading 10:26:05 jdz: hashtable => nosql (key, value _pair_), plist => table (rows * columns) 10:26:15 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:37 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 10:26:37 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 10:26:37 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 10:27:28 so, basically, i want to build a table; then parse through the table 1 row at a time -> read data from some columns -> do something to that data (say, show it in an html, etc) 10:27:38 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 10:28:06 the data, to build the table, is in a tsv file. w/ 1st line being the header, and remaining lines being the data rows 10:29:50 hmm 10:29:58 looking at that again, pairlis isn't that helpful 10:29:58 spradnyesh: you know about MAPHASH, don't you? 10:30:08 it returns alists, not plists 10:30:23 sharps: yea, i realised that too 10:30:35 jdz: not really, lemme read about that 10:30:51 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:56 it maps a function over a hash-table 10:31:11 however, I believe the order is undefined 10:31:23 *over the key-value pairs in a hash table 10:31:36 jdz: read about it. it does not help me still 10:31:38 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.201.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:31:52 it just allows me to parse over the hashtable 1 row at a time 10:32:08 but i still don't know how to query a particular column within the current row 10:32:32 i might as well have a simple list and loop through it instead of a hash table 10:32:54 ok, you can build the rows with something like: 10:32:56 spradnyesh: i never suggested you to use hashtable in the first place 10:33:22 (loop for field in fields for header in headers collect field collect header) 10:33:26 spradnyesh: my point was regarding sharps's suggestion of using hashtable (which in my opinion did not add any value) 10:33:26 jdz: sorry, i didn't mean to say that you did 10:33:37 all i was saying is that hashtable doesn't help me 10:33:43 this gives the (:header value :header2 value2) pattern 10:34:08 sprad: What is your actual problem? 10:34:17 sharps: looks like that's what i was looking for 10:34:21 lemme try that out 10:34:49 Zhivago: i want to build a table; then parse through the table 1 row at a time -> read data from some columns -> do something to that data (say, show it in an html, etc). where the data, to build the table, is in a tsv file. w/ 1st line being the header, and remaining lines being the data rows 10:34:55 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:36:50 -!- Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:37:33 What does "a table" mean? 10:38:27 So, as far as you are concerned the table is a list of tuples? 10:41:12 Zhivago: table is a list of plists. so yea, what you say is correct 10:41:33 Why not just use the file? 10:42:26 Making a small abstraction that allows you to extract one row at a time ... 10:43:23 Zhivago: hmmm, lemme think it over and see if that might solve my problem 10:43:50 Zhivago: given "Parses command line arguments argv in permutation mode and returns list of non-option arguments." what does 'permutation mode' mean? 10:43:55 spradnyesh: what exactly is the problem? 10:44:08 spradnyesh: the one that needs to be solved? 10:44:39 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:48 jdz: i have a file which contains some 4000 rows (1st row being the header) X 50 columns 10:44:51 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:25 i need to go query this data over some column1 = 'a' and column2 = 'b'... 10:45:30 basically a DB like operation 10:45:37 but on data present in file 10:45:48 i thought that creating a list of plists might help 10:46:03 Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 10:46:04 well, you read the first line, then you know where to find the columns 10:46:15 correct 10:46:18 then you can just read each line and extract that data, right? 10:46:19 then you go over the rows, and do whatever you want with the columns, right? 10:46:26 rather than parse the file, then iterate over it 10:46:27 Yes, your little abstraction needs to remember what's in the first line. 10:46:27 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:46:28 correct 10:46:43 Zhivago: yes, that's right. am already doing that 10:46:49 If you need operations other than what you'd described, this might not be a good idea. 10:46:55 But given the specification ... 10:46:57 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:47:39 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:50 also, every row that satisfies a condition (col1 = ' 10:49:17 yeah, but you'd abstract out what to do with the interesting data in each row, right? 10:49:18 also, every row that satisfies a condition (col1 = 'a' && col2 = 'b') goes to it's bucket. an entry can go to multiple buckets 10:49:52 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 10:50:10 so would it make sense to loop over every row and segregate, or build 1 bucket at a time (as i would've done w/ a db table)? 10:51:16 i think the 1st way should be the way in which i must think. but then i'm still blocked on creating a :plist out of the current row 10:51:23 I suggest an interface that shoves every row through a function. 10:51:25 *plist 10:51:41 Then that becomes someone else's problem. 10:51:46 Zhivago: that's what i meant (my 1st way) 10:52:00 Sounds like the obvious approach to me. 10:52:03 but each row is a plist, right? 10:52:17 but how do i build the plist is my original Q 10:53:02 Well, presumably you'd split the row upon tabs and then interpolate it with the header row ... 10:53:21 you can do the interpolation with the loop code I gave earlier 10:53:25 gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.201.174] has joined #lisp 10:53:27 Although I'm not sure why you want plists. 10:53:43 Why not specify the field mapping you want when you shove the data into the function? 10:54:07 e.g., (shove-data file '("legs" "size" "cucumbers") #'foo) 10:54:12 if you're interested in specific columns, you can probably pass some sort of :test that uses #'member on a list of interesting headers to select only those fields 10:54:24 Then foo can just receive 26, 400, "no". 10:54:45 Zhivago: isn't plist a way to specify field-mapping? 10:55:03 Sure, but it's usualy simpler to use positional arguments, if they make sense ... 10:55:18 Then your function doesn't need an extra decoding stage. 10:55:24 so i send a whole row to a function, but that function needs to work only on a few of the data 10:55:43 yea, positional might be simpler here 10:55:58 i was thinking of using a plist coz there are like 50 columns 10:56:06 which is not less 10:56:13 Well, in the example above you just send three columns. 10:56:24 "legs", "size" and "cucumbers", in that order. 10:57:00 ok, lemme try that out and see how that goes 10:57:07 thanks for all the help you guys 10:57:14 Good luck. 10:59:08 The main limitation of positional arguments is when you don't know what columns you want. 11:01:38 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:03:21 homie: do you like ganster rap 11:04:17 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:20 I want ro reproduce the same effect as #'(lambda (&rest attrs &key k) 1) this doesn't work (let ((args '(&rest attrs &key k))) #'(lambda args 1)) is there a way to do it without a macro ? 11:07:16 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:08:12 clhs lambda 11:08:22 kiuma: (constantly 1)? 11:08:53 constantly ? 11:09:00 clhs constantly 11:09:22 l1sp.org/cl/constantly 11:10:10 kiuma: or your specification of what you want was underspecified 11:10:11 jdz, 1 is not what I need 11:10:12 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:10:21 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:10:27 kiuma: so tell what you want 11:10:39 the point is args in (lambda args 1) 11:10:57 args should be read as (&rest attrs &key k) 11:11:29 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:11:38 since I'm wrinting a function that creates functions 11:11:43 in MOP 11:11:49 layer 11:12:50 is it possible without a macro ? 11:12:59 what exactly? 11:13:18 each function you create has a known argument list 11:13:37 has an unknown argument list 11:13:54 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 11:14:29 they are html tag functions: a tag function can be: 11:15:56 something like "top-menu>" or "top-menu> &rest attrs &key ...." or even "top-menu> &key ..." 11:17:15 I know it's something a bit uncommon 11:17:22 but I need it 11:18:49 i see two choices: 1) you define stuff with a defining macro, and generate the functions using the macro, or 2) make a functions that include argument checking in their body 11:19:41 sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.227] has joined #lisp 11:19:58 then my option is the macro :( that I suspected. The real code is more complex. Thx for suggestion 11:21:00 the problem is that you don't show your real code... 11:21:15 Chat4943 [hgkyeo@69.41.165.101] has joined #lisp 11:21:19 i only have a slight clue of what you're doing 11:21:53 I'm extending CLAW, if for example I give you a component say the top-menu above and the function signature is only "top-menu> &rest rest" you'll not be able how to call it 11:22:05 but if you want the implementation's arglist processing, the arglist must be available at compile time 11:22:40 i have no clue what CLAW is 11:23:09 not that it matters, anyway 11:23:29 I know, I'm taking it a bit 'hidden' since without a manual or guideline nobody will be able to use it 11:23:55 it's a web application server, and a web framework 11:24:23 I'll create a portal too with it 11:24:40 well, good luck 11:24:46 hehe 11:24:50 let's all have our own web frameworks 11:25:01 -!- Chat4943 [hgkyeo@69.41.165.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:03 mine is different 11:25:08 of course it is 11:25:24 by functionality 11:25:26 I mean 11:25:27 it does not even matter what it is different from 11:25:34 because it's all yours 11:25:48 i'd put a smiley in there somewhere 11:25:52 to not sound like an ass 11:26:05 :) 11:26:07 but i'm kinda joking 11:26:19 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:29 but the argue could be something like true 11:26:35 because on the project i'm working on i'm making my own framework 11:26:52 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:26:55 and of course it's completely different from all other web frameworks 11:27:09 I'm just writing a simple invoicing web application 11:27:46 to finally avoiding openoffice usage, that drives me mad 11:29:25 when I'll finish it I'll share it for all you rich people :P 11:30:11 i don't see anybody rich around here.. 11:31:14 -!- Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:31:39 nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:39:02 someone will get rich soon or after :) 11:42:41 is ACM Computing Surveys worth a subscription? 11:43:26 (make that worth following? the question is not if it's worth the price, but rather worth the time) 11:44:08 Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 11:49:28 tfb [~tfb@92.41.113.98.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:51:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:51:56 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.39] has quit [Quit: Offline] 11:53:06 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:54:24 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-189.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:39 tcr1 [~tcr@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 11:55:47 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 11:58:53 -!- Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:00:40 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 12:07:23 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:14 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@87.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:12:46 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:13:53 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:13:58 amb007 [~a_bakic@87.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:04 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:20:55 Joreji [~thomas@80-103.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:21:16 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@95.215.121.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:21:29 adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:42 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 12:32:29 -!- yan_ [~yan@srtd.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:32:45 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:33:09 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:37 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:33:56 yan_ [~yan@srtd.org] has joined #lisp 12:35:29 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 12:37:13 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 12:37:24 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.198] has joined #lisp 12:45:09 can anybody help me with a macro please ? 12:45:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/119680 12:46:13 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.178.198] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 12:47:26 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 12:48:02 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.31.158] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 12:48:46 kiuma: your macro is, well, a macro, so the argument 'lst' as given is not evaluated 12:48:50 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.31.158] has joined #lisp 12:49:08 so you get the symbol 'lst' instead of whatever list you wanted to get 12:50:07 cmm, how can I evaluate it ? 12:50:08 if you really want to call build-tag-function as a function, just make it a function 12:50:26 ahh 12:50:57 but I need the differnet signatures 12:51:50 Use macros to build code -- not values. 12:52:17 cmm, such as #'(lambda () ..) , #'(lambda (&rest args &keys) ...) etc 12:52:47 how can I do with a function ? 12:53:16 I have to call then (setf (fdefinition symbolf) the-resut) 12:53:33 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:53:36 æh? 12:54:01 *the-result-of-mu macro 12:54:06 *the-result-of-my-macro 12:54:44 what is the result of a macro, pray tell? macros expand to code 12:55:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:35 I meant (setf (fdefinition symbolf) #'(lambda (&rest args &keys) ...)) 12:55:36 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:04 I meant (setf (fdefinition symbolf) #'(lambda (&rest args &key id class ...) ...)) 12:56:10 and so on 12:56:10 expand into a defun, then 12:56:39 ok I try 12:56:48 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:56:54 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-siinloqybplvnhxl] has left #lisp 12:58:11 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A96D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:15 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:58:19 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 12:58:36 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-178-117.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:00:58 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:01:39 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:00 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:03:54 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 13:03:54 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 13:03:54 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 13:04:31 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:15 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-99-190-97-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:38 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 13:08:36 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-55-179.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:08:41 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 13:11:27 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:13:47 -!- sacho [~sacho@194.141.26.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:14:06 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:14:35 -!- adu [~ajr@softbank220043138128.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 13:15:19 cmm, I don't understan one thing (among the others :) ) I've changed defmacro to defun should I call eval on the result ? 13:15:25 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:16:02 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:16:02 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:16:08 -!- whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-157-162.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:17:01 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:18 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:17:28 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:08 not if it's generated by a macro 13:18:21 then the compiler will get to see it anyway, without calling eval yourself 13:18:57 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-72-226-124-205.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:07 kiuma: Listening to you blunder about like a blind elephant in a haberdashery is painful -- why not find a decent book and grasp the fundamentals for yourself? 13:19:21 kiuma: it is my suspicion that you are doing something horribly, horribly wrong, and getting small points like this "right" would be pointless 13:19:26 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19:59 yeah, what the man said :) 13:20:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-157-189.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:20:36 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:21:01 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 13:21:12 whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-157-162.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:21:25 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has left #lisp 13:23:27 -!- gaidal [~gaidal@116.21.201.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:27:31 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-76-69.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:28:36 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:29:30 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 13:30:39 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:21 <|nix|> heCLo all 13:31:30 Zhivago, I would, what other then PCL ? 13:31:51 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:33:22 PCL is very good... read it few times from beginning to end while trying out the examples 13:34:22 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:38:18 kiuma has been a regular here for the last several years, it seems. I guess some things just persist in not sticking to some minds (I can certainly name examples pertaining to myself, so I don't think I am being insulting) 13:40:01 cmm, no you are not, but it's true that I've problems with macros that I always try to avoid, so my problems with macros 13:40:56 thing is, "problems with macros" means "problems with grasping the lisp evaluation model", and that's sort of serious, see 13:43:29 and/or backquote 13:46:44 v0|d [~user@93.94.250.121] has joined #lisp 13:47:54 tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has joined #lisp 13:49:43 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 13:54:07 Read On Lisp to learn about macros. 13:54:23 Or Let Over Lambda. 13:54:36 Very fun read. Not that I'm grasping much on first reading 13:54:59 LoL is a bunch of heuristics 13:55:18 on the other hand On Lisp is a good theoretical book 13:55:21 There are two LoL's now. Lo and LoL. 13:55:35 what are their full titles? 13:55:51 Land Of Lisp (Conrad Barsky) is the other one. 13:56:03 (Or is he Barski?) 13:56:17 ah, wel... I meant doug hoytes's one 13:56:28 Dranik: Let over Lambda 13:56:38 that's LOL. Land of Lisp is LoL 13:56:57 lol :-D 13:56:59 *Xach* can't wait to finish his book, Lisp Out Loud 13:57:11 there's also oL 13:57:14 Hm. I think Lo and LoL are less confusing :) 13:57:26 And there's L.I.S.P. 13:57:36 antoszka: what's that? 13:57:39 why the dots? 13:57:42 antoszka: But most people can't type Lo 13:57:46 jdz: NY Times style 13:57:48 flip214: Lisp in Small Pieces. 13:57:50 then LoL sohuld be L.o.L. 13:57:52 ah, yes 13:57:55 Let over Lambda is a kind of cookbook but not a great tutorial to macros as On Lisp 13:57:56 antoszka: LiSP 13:58:18 sellout: They should be using my keymap then :) 13:58:33 trivial tuesday? 13:58:35 *sellout* votes for L/ 13:59:00 Or L/L for those sans Unicode. 13:59:02 oh, i guess the ? is a lambda then 13:59:02 Dranik: I think it does open the mind for some macro thinking. 13:59:20 Dranik: Even if it ends up being a cookbook ultimately. 13:59:22 antoszka, did you have a look at On Lisp? 13:59:27 Dranik: Not yet. 13:59:37 Dranik: I read small bits of it on the net. 13:59:40 you really should have 13:59:46 I certainly will at a point. 13:59:50 Still mostly noobish. 14:00:00 LoL is just a cookbook not more 14:00:13 and the recepies are not always perfect 14:01:04 The author often references/relates to stuff in oL. 14:01:20 yep, bcs On Lisp is great! 14:01:24 :) 14:02:06 actually, that doesn't matter. LoL is also interesting book 14:08:26 anyway I continue not to understand why macroexpand produces what I think it should 14:09:04 s/think/thought/ 14:09:35 s/produces/does not produce 14:11:08 jdz, http://paste.lisp.org/display/119680 14:11:49 macroexpand shows what I thought 14:11:56 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@71.16.32.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:13:31 kiuma: what do you want? 14:13:55 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 14:14:25 in your macro body, keys is a symbol 14:14:41 Seems to me that the problems has already been identified. Which you would also see if you changed the call to macroexpand not to use a backquoted list. 14:16:26 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:16:44 kiuma: looks like you only have (or want to have) the keys list at runtime; but macro is expanded way before that. 14:18:29 ok, now it's clear, I'm a 'bit' hard 14:19:15 oh man, that's not what you tell everybody on IRC 14:19:20 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:19:36 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:46 ha ha ha 14:20:21 jdz, ?? did I ever said I'm cool at lisp ? 14:20:32 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:20:37 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 14:21:20 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-208-47.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:21:22 I feel a wank 14:21:26 I am 14:21:37 but at least I know :P 14:22:09 ok, now that this has been cleared up, let's get back to our regularly scheduled lisp coding 14:23:44 Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 14:24:18 yeah I'm having my hands full.. I'd like to see if I can pull this off 14:28:07 Are there some docs about writing metaclasses? AMOP is a reference and looks like there is nothing else but sources. 14:28:33 naryl: there's "user level language crafting" 14:28:47 naryl: AMOP the book? 14:28:55 it should come with a warning though - You might get an uncontrollable urge to make an ORM 14:29:13 yes 14:29:19 heh 14:29:22 :D 14:29:38 No, I know two of them already and both are perfectly usable. 14:29:48 *three 14:30:13 naryl: I did too :P 14:31:10 naryl: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/wefuazi7dmpwla2/mopintro.pdf?dl=1 <--- have it (it's available on the net legally, but I don't remember where, so have a PDF conversion of the original PostScript file) 14:32:14 p_l|backup: I'm already reading ps :P 14:32:46 with Evince 14:32:53 heh 14:33:08 still, it was a good introduction IMHO 14:33:33 though AMOP changed my perspective on CLOS (coupled with some talks here) 14:34:29 which further proved to me just how damaging popular approach to OOP was to learning CLOS :) 14:35:07 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.99.145] has joined #lisp 14:36:41 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:36:49 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:18 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:27 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-76-69.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:52:44 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-187-53.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:54:55 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:55:15 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:41 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 14:57:57 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.170.28.72] has joined #lisp 14:57:58 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.170.28.72] has quit [Changing host] 14:57:58 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 14:58:00 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:02 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59:24 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:58 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 15:01:33 hi, everyone 15:02:04 I have a question about slime autodoc that's been puzzling me for some time 15:02:23 what is the reason that when I change my lisp implementation 15:02:26 say from clisp 15:02:30 to cmucl 15:02:39 the docstrings change 15:02:55 one has meaningful argument names 15:03:13 and the other has argument names like arg1 arg2 etc 15:03:33 Because clisp doesn't have meaningful names. 15:04:04 I see 15:04:10 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.31.158] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 15:04:21 I thought it was something like missing doc packages or something like that 15:04:29 because I'm coming from a Java background 15:04:51 bozhidar: No need to split a single thought up over multiple lines on IRC. 15:04:55 and IDEs generally rely on the javadoc(or the source code) to generate hints in methods 15:05:09 It's up to the implementation. You can kind of see this if you do something like (describe 'sin) in clisp and cmucl. 15:05:15 Xach: sorry about that 15:05:16 bozhidar: slime asks the implementation for that info, and clisp doesn't preserve it in a way that's useful to slime. 15:05:52 bozhidar: there is an elisp package (the name escapes me, sorry) that provides nice argument lists for all standard CL functions 15:06:07 I think the name is something like cl-autodoc, it was written by a japanese guy. 15:06:10 -!- skalawag` [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:24 Xach: 10x, I'll look around for it 15:08:21 *Xach* prefers real words 15:08:49 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:35 http://homepage1.nifty.com/bmonkey/emacs/elisp/cldoc.el is the thing I was thinking of. 15:09:35 reals don't generally fit into a word 15:10:39 btw, if I may ask another question about slime? It seems to me that it ignores the value of inferior-lisp-program if there is a list of alternative implementations. When I start SLIME it creates a repl using the first implementation in the alternative implementations list instead of using the inferior-lisp-program. I consulted the SLIME documentation and according to it the inferior-lisp-program should be used if you're starting slime 15:10:39 without prefix arguments. Could this be a bug in the CVS version? 15:11:01 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe026.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:11:27 Xach: thanks again for the link 15:11:54 bozhidar: slime-lisp-implementations is preferred if non-nil. if the docs say otherwise, the docs are in error. 15:13:23 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:13:32 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:13:43 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:14:16 morning 15:14:41 Xach: By default, the command M-x slime starts the program specied with inferior-lispprogram. If you invoke M-x slime with a prex argument, Emacs prompts for the program 15:14:41 which should be started instead. If you need that frequently or if the command involves 15:14:41 long lenames its more convenient to set the slime-lisp-implementations variable in 15:14:50 DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:25 this was lifted from the documentation. When I come to think of it the last bit is a bit ambiguous 15:16:00 it doesn't explicitly specify what will happen if the slime-lisp-implementations is set 15:16:06 BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-42.hypernet.biz.pl] has joined #lisp 15:17:41 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:18:36 I guess you're supposed to infer that slime-lisp-implementations takes precedence. Otherwise, it's useless. 15:20:33 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 15:20:51 -!- sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has left #lisp 15:22:05 -!- BeniaminQ [~quassel@host-195-88-115-42.hypernet.biz.pl] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 15:28:38 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:32:08 I wonder what dried up the Deeyana discussion on cll. 15:34:32 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:35:14 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:36 pabst [~anonymous@70-36-139-205.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:05 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:55 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-149-166.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:06 myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:37:50 mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 15:40:05 Xach: your comment about Series Expansion made me look into writing stylometry software to compare posts from both authors.. but I found relatively few SE posts, and in any case it was too few data 15:40:24 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.31.158] has joined #lisp 15:42:32 adeht: How about "Seamus MacRae"? 15:42:44 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:43:10 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has left #lisp 15:44:30 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:17 Xach: tried it too 15:46:40 Xach: many of the posts were deleted from the big archives 15:47:00 adeht: the "There is nobody using that alias" phrase also turns up in a *ton* of bizarre flamefests in other newsgroups. 15:50:34 Xach: but it seemed to me that Deeyana was quite a sophisticated troll.. 15:51:06 mathrick: is that fixed for you know? 15:51:14 (the unparsed markdown thing) 15:52:50 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:52:56 slyrus: I'd have to see some new entries, I was going off on what's on planet lisp 15:53:25 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.31.158] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 15:53:31 slyrus: yep, it is 15:53:39 it was apparently updated 15:53:58 great thanks. and my new-fangled blog now supports comments (via disqus) in case y'all feel like chiming in 15:54:23 comments! 15:56:53 vilsonvieira [~vilson@h08100.ifsc.usp.br] has joined #lisp 15:57:13 dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has joined #lisp 15:58:21 is there current s-exp highlight in slime? 15:58:25 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756b3a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:33 is there s-exp folding? 15:59:06 Emacs normally does s-exp highlighting in source buffers. 15:59:17 (Well, maybe you need to enable it.) 16:01:00 mippymoe [~mathguru1@67.194.34.131] has joined #lisp 16:01:10 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-208-47.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:01:10 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 16:01:40 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 16:01:47 how can I do it? I tried M-x slime-, but don't see any relevant thing 16:02:05 jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has joined #lisp 16:02:06 Guest77338 [186730cd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.103.48.205] has joined #lisp 16:02:09 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ofuozvrsixwaxmag] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02:19 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:28 how many of you are interested in Android developement? I've been toying around with ideas of alternative tools for developement there, especially ones oriented around Lisp (but generating "standard" Android applications, so unfortunately not CL, though CL would be used for the tools) 16:03:11 p_l|backup: to compile lisp to dex bytecode you mean? 16:03:35 is there a lisp built in function that will allow me to divide up a list into sublists of a specified length (except the final sublist may be shorter than the specified length)? 16:04:11 bozhidar: if you setq slime-lisp-implementations to a list of lists like ((ccl64 ("/usr/local/bin/ccl64"))) then when you M-- M-x slime you can use 'ccl64' as an alias for the full path to the implementation. 16:04:16 dmytrish: a lispish language that would generate Java bytecode then processed by DX tool 16:04:26 Did I misread your question? 16:04:29 p_l|backup: and how would you integrate standard and android classes? 16:04:56 p_l|backup, seems like you need clojure 16:05:04 Fade: I'm aware of that :-) 16:05:05 dmytrish: define "standard" 16:05:05 Dranik: Clojure is unusable on Android 16:05:25 dmytrish: clojure-style . and .. macros 16:05:34 p_l|backup, oh really? so how do they run clojure and blog about that? 16:05:43 Fade: the question regarded the presence of both inferior-lisp-program and slime-lisp-implementations 16:05:51 Dranik: oh, it will *run*. I'm not saying the result is useful :) 16:05:56 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:09 in the presence of slime-lisp-implementations, I believe slime selects the first entry in slime-lisp-implementations. 16:06:09 p_l|backup, you mean performance? 16:06:14 -!- jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:06:24 -!- mippymoe [~mathguru1@67.194.34.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:06:24 try reordering the list. 16:06:37 Why do you think that clojure is not useful on android? 16:06:48 I wish I knew Lisp perfectly to take part in LispDroid :) 16:07:09 Dranik: Clojure practically kills GC with garbage in any Android under 2.3, and I have no knowledge of tests on 2.3/3.0 (which have different GC), also except for some very experimental lib isn't capable of using EVAL or COMPILE on android 16:07:17 Fade: yep, I believe you're correct. 16:07:22 Personally, I think that the simplest answer is to compile lisp to javascript -- which runs fine under android. 16:08:16 The next most simple answer is to add lisp support to the android scripting environment project and use their RPC bridge. 16:09:35 dmytrish: Isn't there some menu item to enable paren highlighting? I have one on xemacs. 16:09:38 dmytrish: LispDroid? 16:09:44 google knows not this thing. 16:09:50 Zhivago: both of these option are lacking if you want 100% compatibility with Android (in case of JS, you are dependant on Java/JS bridge and there are two different engines used with different characteristics, unless you use a yet another engine that runs on Java) 16:09:50 but it would be nice to have something like GOAL for Android 16:10:01 or will I have to wrote my own with things like nthcdr and loop 16:10:18 p_l: No. Javascript gives you 100% compatibility. 16:10:30 p_l|backup, so how are you going to implement it? from scratch or forking some project? 16:10:37 Dranik: there isn't one 16:10:42 (yet) 16:10:53 p_l: Rhino gives you full access to everything in java-land -- it works fine. 16:10:56 p_l|backup, I mean at least the core 16:10:58 Zhivago: using Rhino or what? Or are you talking about embedding WebView 16:11:20 p_l: WebView has the problem that it isn't running in your activity process. 16:11:22 Zhivago: ah, Rhino. Haven't used that, but it is an interesting approach as well. 16:11:39 p_l: But you can use rhino with webview to have js on both sides of that. 16:12:28 Zhivago: technically, the approach I'm considering could do both (that is, JVM bytecode and/or JS), though I heard that there is some work in progress for CL->JS 16:12:39 anybody know? I want to have a function (foo (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16) 3) that evaluates to ((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9) (10 11 12) (13 14 15) (16)) 16:12:54 I'm just wondering if there is something that already does that before I reinvent the wheel... 16:13:11 mducharme: Loop, probably. 16:13:12 Lispy languages on android: Kawa (scheme impl) apparently works well 16:13:50 drdo [~user@bl9-120-243.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:13:50 twem2: yeah, I'm looking into it as well, but I'd end up writing a ton of wrappers probably because Scheme doesn't always agree with me :) 16:14:19 zhivago ok.. so I'm going to have to write my own loop then 16:14:28 I don't suppose you could tell me the code that would do that heh 16:15:54 mducharme: There are lots of loop examples -- I forget the incantation you want off hand. 16:16:02 ok 16:16:23 What I'm looking for is mainly a pain-free developement environment for Android. Java doesn't tend to that :/ 16:16:30 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:16:34 sorry, it's just I'm new to lisp, and I need to have some composition done for tomorrow, and I cannot compose the music until I have the function working 16:17:20 You could always just use subseq and nthcdr. 16:17:36 If your lists aren't too long, a recursive solution would be trivial. 16:18:08 the lists are very long 16:18:32 Then you can hand tail call optimize it, if loop is too hard. 16:18:52 the structure is there is a musical score as a list, which has various instrument staves on it, each stave is a list, then there are bars on the stave, those are lists, then there are beats in each bar, those are lists 16:19:48 (loop while list collect (subseq list 0 3) do (setf list (nthcdr list 3))) probably. 16:20:03 I am algorithmically constructing music, my pattern bars are not always the same length in terms of beats, and it is resulting in some wonky output, so I need to construct a "rebar" function which will take all the beats in all the bars and divide them up into some specified equal number 16:20:11 ok cool... 16:20:18 ... I hate when I'm hounded by a recruiter but I'm stuck with bad time restrictions :/ 16:21:14 -!- Krystof [~csr21@95.215.121.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:21:49 heh 16:21:59 I hate only having being given 3 days to learn lisp 16:24:12 mducharme: oh? 16:24:32 I hope you are good with coffeine then. Go go PCL reading ;-) 16:25:45 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:26:28 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 16:26:39 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:43 p_l|backup: yeah I think people have probably been getting annoyed with some of my questions over the past few days.. but I really have had not much choice.. I would have preferred much more time to learn what I was doing heh 16:34:18 mducharme: what kind of assignment it is? 16:34:32 that loop only works when the length of the subsequence evenly divides the length of the list. 16:35:30 tcr1 [~tcr@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 16:36:44 p_l|backup I am composing music using an algorithmic system in PWGL which is written in lisp 16:36:52 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.160.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:36:56 -!- pabst [~anonymous@70-36-139-205.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: pabst] 16:36:57 Fade: ever heard of word "pseudocode" and the phrase "exercise for the reader"? 16:37:10 I need to have some of the music done 16:37:14 mducharme: ah 16:37:18 but I don't really have any music written 16:37:27 because I'm still trying to get the code working 16:37:34 it does me no good to have the code and have no music 16:38:14 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:38:27 just a caution for the reader not to blindly paste it into whatever context he's using 16:39:14 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe026.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:39:38 hrm 16:40:09 fade - how can it be adjusted so that if it does not evenly divide, what is left gets put in a smaller sublist? 16:41:05 the more usual approach would be to pad the end of the list with nil 16:41:06 kme70 [~martin@p4FF7AABB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:11 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:41:18 so that it evenly divides. 16:41:43 I would then need to remove the nil afterwards 16:41:47 or it will confuse the score processor.. 16:42:05 yeah. you'd have to guard against it if the processor doesn't handle it. 16:42:21 is there a method that would work without the nil? 16:42:50 icbh [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:43:04 sure, you check the length of the remaining list 16:43:19 if it's smaller than subsequence, then you just collect it and you're done. 16:43:28 ok 16:43:30 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:36 vert2 [vert2@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-hhwqdbyzqqewnmzd] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 ASau [~user@89-178-250-194.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 16:46:39 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:46:49 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@95.215.121.244] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:53:14 is there a way to create a lambda function without using (lambda ...) ? 16:56:54 depends on what you mean by "lambda function" 16:57:30 there's flet and labels, but I don't know if that's what you want 16:57:54 aren't practically all function-creation methods calling LAMBDA (or rather, it's low-level part) anyway? 16:57:57 kiuma: Can you be more specific about what you're looking for? 16:58:52 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe026.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 17:01:44 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:59 sykopomp, I have to create a lambda runtime, the only solution that I've found has been to create a symbol like #'(lambda (&rest .. &key ...) ...) and then eval it 17:02:48 because I'm working at MOP level and a defclass produces a function 17:03:09 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:03:52 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:23 Bronsa [~brace@host14-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:07:00 p_l: The function creating operator is called function. 17:07:23 p_l: (lambda ...) turns into (function (lambda ...)) 17:07:54 kiuma: #'(lambda ...) is not a symbol. 17:08:03 kiuma: Please read an introductory lisp book. 17:08:07 Zhivago: function is not a function. 17:08:11 -!- longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:08:21 sykopomp: Where did I make such a claim? 17:08:33 nowhere! 17:08:46 Then why are you saying that to me? 17:08:51 I omitted operator while reading. 17:08:54 :P 17:09:28 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:09:29 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440254.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:18 ilowhy [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has joined #lisp 17:10:43 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:10:50 urandom__ [~user@p548A377A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:34 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440254.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:12:20 astoon [~astoon@109.188.237.127] has joined #lisp 17:12:59 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:09 Zhivago: right, forgot it 17:16:39 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-24-0-146-14.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:44 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 17:16:58 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-esevjrlydbmobyjn] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:17:52 -!- icbh [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18:09 Zhivago, I perfectly know that's not a symbol, read better :P 17:18:56 kiuma: Please learn English. 17:19:41 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-149-166.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:19:57 " the only solution that I've found has been to create a symbol like #'(lambda (&rest .. &key ...) ...)" is english I think 17:20:19 maybe s/has been/was/ 17:20:47 And that implies that #'(lambda (&rest .. &key ...) ...) is a symbol. 17:20:51 Which it isn't. 17:21:11 clhs function 17:21:16 bah 17:21:43 http://l1sp.org/cl/function 17:21:48 thx 17:22:22 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-206-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:28:50 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:29 -!- Liera` is now known as Liera 17:34:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:57 tcr1 [~tcr@95.215.121.244] has joined #lisp 17:37:21 -!- mcguitan83 [~user@2001:660:330f:a4:219:d1ff:fe7d:3bfe] has quit 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rapacity_ [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 18:39:47 -!- rapacity_ is now known as rapacity 18:40:28 maxigas [~user@mail.szervermegoldasok.hu] has joined #lisp 18:41:37 is there a way to start sbcl --load in a way that it detaches from the console and i can reattach to it through emacs+slime when i want? 18:42:11 maxigas: I use screen to do that. 18:42:15 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.147.92] has joined #lisp 18:42:20 tmux is another screen-like program 18:42:38 there's also detachtty 18:42:54 -!- rsynnott_ is now known as rsynnott 18:43:38 -!- myu2 [~myu2@x108121.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:43:48 i am trying to write a /etc/init.d/foo script to start my sbcl app as a service 18:44:05 so i am not sure how do i start a program *in* screen from a script 18:44:36 maxigas: i use this to start l1sp.org at boot: su l1sp -c 'screen -d -m -S l1sp -c /opt/l1sp/etc/screenrc' 18:44:38 maxigas: man screen 18:44:48 maxigas: that is in my rc.local 18:45:02 maxigas: seriously, it says at the top how to invoke a command in the screen directly 18:45:50 madnificent: yes you are right, sorry to ask a basic question, i underestimated the power of screen. :) 18:46:40 Xach: You wrote a blog entry or something about how to set up a hunchentoot environment with daemons and all, neh? 18:47:00 i did. 18:47:10 maxigas: just check man for a few seconds when you ask a question. I've done the same in the past, it happens :) 18:47:17 http://xach.livejournal.com/215066.html 18:47:45 Xach: great, thx 18:48:26 Xach: -d -m -S can be conveniently shortened to -dmS foo... Which I do on my screens. 18:50:58 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 18:50:58 Haha, I have a funny story to tell y'all 18:51:10 I hope it is about Lisp. 18:51:11 you mean in #lispcafe? 18:51:24 Lisp can't be funny 18:51:29 I introduced Lisp to a bright 13 year old who Bill Gosper is tutoring, and told Gosper about this. Here was his response. 18:51:31 ----- 18:51:32 (GASP) He's not ready! Last I checked, Lisp was the absolute apex of the Foothill Community 18:51:32 College prerequisites tree. You pretty much needed a Ph.D, with minors in Chinese Cobol and 18:51:32 Object Oriented Cuneiform, before you could type your first paren. 18:51:32 --Bill 18:51:33 ----- 18:51:38 ... 18:51:59 dlowe: it's good enough for #lisp I think 18:52:07 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Client Quit] 18:52:07 *dlowe* is spammed. 18:52:08 Quadrescence: Who's Bill Gosper? 18:52:20 antoszka: go wikipedia him 18:52:33 no wonder Maxima has such a terrible code 18:52:43 stassats: hahaha 18:53:14 stassats: He worked on Symbolics Macsyma, not DOE-MACSYMA (and therefore Maxima) 18:53:42 Quadrescence: Somehow missed him in all my Lisp readings 18:53:50 antoszka: :( 18:53:52 :( 18:54:03 jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:54:36 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:54:36 -!- pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:54:36 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:54:36 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:54:36 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:54:41 mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 18:54:41 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Changing host] 18:54:41 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 18:54:44 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 18:54:48 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.147.92] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:54:48 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:54:48 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe026.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:54:48 -!- ilmari [ilmari@knuth.ping.uio.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:54:48 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [*.net *.split] 18:54:59 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 18:55:02 Athas` [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 18:55:07 ilmari [ilmari@knuth.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 18:55:13 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:55:27 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe026.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 18:56:11 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-119-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:04 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:57:11 pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:31 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 18:57:33 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B32712E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:41 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:41 daniel [~daniel@p5B32712E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:56 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:58 _8david`: just tried debugging that redefinition warning thing on allegro. It's really annoying: These are full simple-warnings. 18:57:59 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #lisp 18:58:15 "could you make this any more annoying plz?" 18:58:47 of course, compile-file returns failure-p = t when you have redef warnings: And of course, slime goes crazy. 18:58:54 (sensibly) 18:59:12 I've shot the relevant people an email: we should really fix this. 19:00:57 Quadrescence: kind of weird that he'd take that opinion... 19:01:08 cibs [~cibs@140.113.22.82] has joined #lisp 19:01:19 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:27 I've used lisp to introduce some of my neices and nephews to programming. kids cotton on to it faster than adults. 19:02:05 hah, that's great 19:02:09 hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:02:10 Fade: He's joking 19:02:15 -!- cibs [~cibs@140.113.22.82] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:02:23 ah 19:02:25 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 19:02:40 Fade: Or making a lisp joke, just like every lisper in here does (or should! (namely about how lisp is slow and good for only AI)) 19:02:53 cibs [~cibs@140.113.22.82] has joined #lisp 19:03:12 more like an eliteness joke 19:03:16 /-: 19:03:28 antifuchs: haha 19:03:33 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 19:03:59 not sure that was supposed to be funny, tbh (: 19:04:05 hmm... Kawa scheme seems to add around 1MB overhead :/ 19:04:17 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Client Quit] 19:04:52 I imagine "you have to be this -> <- smart to learn lisp" doesn't exactly make people feel welcome 19:04:52 stassats: I tried running CCL on my Pogoplug. Doesn't work. 19:05:41 p_l|backup: What are you doing? 19:06:48 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 19:07:23 -!- drdo [~user@bl9-120-243.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:08:02 myu2 [~myu2@122.249.108.121] has joined #lisp 19:08:13 -!- homie [~levgue@78.35.167.243] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:09:28 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-66-144.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:11:33 Landr [~vser@78-22-150-160.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:11:42 tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has joined #lisp 19:12:11 brodo [~brodo@p5B022D0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:10 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:19:03 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:19:26 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@117.201.102.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:21 Fade: how old are they? 19:23:49 alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has joined #lisp 19:24:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:24:29 -!- PuffTheM` [~PuffTheMa@cpe-67-246-39-240.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:24:40 -!- nikodemus_ [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:26:23 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-243.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:55 Quadrescence: experimenting with Android 19:29:17 p_l|backup: how's ccl on android coming? 19:29:18 p_l|backup: Isn't android going to have a C compiler now? 19:29:33 Quadrescence: It's got a growing c/c++ api. 19:30:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl51B61673.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 19:32:13 Quadrescence: it always had, but the whole thing is oriented around Android APIs which aren't exactly available (unless you go through JNI, which is dog-slow). The NativeActivity is targeted at game developers btw 19:33:02 -!- cibs [~cibs@140.113.22.82] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:33:04 JNI isn't bad if you don't cross the boundary too many times 19:33:07 so, my target is to build something that can deliver a sub-100kB application 19:33:27 aoh: which works for games etc. 19:33:40 or when you have a previously developed library to use 19:33:43 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:00 cibs [~cibs@140.113.22.82] has joined #lisp 19:34:12 basically, NDK is there as an extension, not as main programming focus 19:34:27 NativeActivity is also 2.3+ 19:34:47 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-206-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:34:57 and other than Nexus S, there are no apiLevel >=9 phones yet 19:35:04 2.3 is when the fun starts :) 19:35:25 IanMalcolm [~ianmalcol@187.113.237.223] has joined #lisp 19:35:29 but right, JNI not much help if you want to interact with the rest of the system a lot 19:35:43 -!- IanMalcolm [~ianmalcol@187.113.237.223] has left #lisp 19:35:51 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@dsl51B61635.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 19:35:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl51B61673.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:35:51 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 19:36:14 aoh: it has many nice things, including a better GC, but native code wasn't, isn't and probably won't be preferred developement path for non-gaming applications 19:36:21 smakinen [~smo@dsl-jklbrasgw1-ffbfc300-84.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 19:36:24 _8david`: debugging this further, it seems like an interaction between *record-source-file-info* and redefinitions! 19:36:56 _8david`: binding excl:*redefinition-warnings* to () while compiling a file will eliminate these pesky warnings. will submit a patch for slime. 19:36:58 NativeActivity btw depends heavily on the rewritten event hub and input system of 2.3, which improved things overall 19:38:26 p_l|backup: And how useful for full-blown app coding is Kawa right now/ 19:38:29 ? 19:38:44 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:02 kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has joined #lisp 19:39:17 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:39:40 antoszka: supposedly useful, but as I mentioned, it's 1MB extra in APK, at least without further optimization. I'm going to test it more, but the option of parenscript-like tool for Android is still enticing 19:40:37 p_l|backup: parenscript-like compiling directly to dalvik? 19:40:44 p_l|backup: or via jscript somehow? 19:41:52 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe026.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:42:14 -!- La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:43:03 antoszka: compiling to JVM bytecode then using Android's tools to generate final APK 19:43:46 Are there tools to translate standard JVM bytecode into packaged dalvik bytecode? 19:43:57 I thought you need source-level code, to generate dalvik. 19:44:44 Lisp tools? 19:45:15 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:45:18 I'm pretty sure dalvik is translated from a standard class file, not from source. 19:45:19 no 19:45:41 android sdk includes a tool (called dx) that does JVM -> DVM conversion 19:45:45 foom: Maybe I had a wrong impression. 19:46:05 -!- hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:46:23 it takes JARs as input, outputs a single DVM jar (which has a single classes.dex file instead of various .class files) 19:47:24 hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:47:38 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host14-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:47:41 is there a tool to do DVM->JVM class file conversion? 19:48:01 though a direct emission of DVM bytecode would be fine too 19:48:32 foom: no, but there is a disassembler/assembler for DVM bytecode, called smali (assembler part) and baksmali (disassembler) 19:49:33 I'd prefer starting with JVM bytecode because I wouldn't have to mess with register selection algorithms :) 19:50:29 PuffTheMagic_ [8071f8da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.113.248.218] has joined #lisp 19:50:47 are there any functions to convert a alist to a plist? 19:51:05 -!- jdz [~jdz@host103-105-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:51:39 alexandria should have one, iirc 19:51:40 alexandria:alist-plist 19:51:56 cool thanks 19:51:56 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:52:36 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-urfgkddizqmsadnt] has joined #lisp 19:53:27 fe[nl]ix: btw i posted something to lisp-hug about the lw / iolib issue 19:53:40 I was just ranting this morning about how much I love alexandria. 19:53:51 Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:54:05 -!- hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:54:16 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.255.83.103] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 19:54:19 sykopomp: oh? 19:54:31 fe[nl]ix: i will try and whip up a patch at some point, but they said to use fli:replace-foreign-array 19:54:38 since it does not need static-allocation 19:56:33 Joreji_ [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:57:52 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440254.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:17 -!- jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:59:01 milkpost [~milkpost@129.255.224.38] has joined #lisp 19:59:07 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@129.255.224.38] has quit [Client Quit] 20:00:59 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 20:01:52 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@pool-72-79-209-29.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:01:53 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:02:59 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441712.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:03:37 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe026.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 20:04:46 bhyde1 [~Adium@c-66-30-115-134.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:48 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-206-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:06:02 francogrex [~user@109.130.147.50] has joined #lisp 20:06:26 -!- alama [~alama@62.169.67.133] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:41 enthymeme [~kraken@76.233.179.123] has joined #lisp 20:07:47 is there like a guidance for how to implement specs functions? Reason I ask I noticed that "remove-duplicates" in ecl is WAY slower than sbcl I suspect it is implemented very differently at the base... 20:07:58 anybody aware of a discussion of using quicklisp with a source control project ... i'm happy to keep 98% of the quicklisp subtree outside of source control, but i need to check in the distinfo.txt (i think) to assure that the quicklisp version moves in lock step across the developer pool 20:08:21 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 20:09:02 -!- bhyde1 is now known as bhyde 20:09:27 francogrex: Go look up sicl. It might have a fast remove-duplicates. 20:09:33 bhyde1: There will be a way to ensure that via the quicklisp client, but it's not exposed yet. 20:09:36 francogrex: it might be because ECL is slower 20:10:18 bhyde: The idea is that you can pick a specific version of a dist and stick with it, instead of always following the latest thing. (Or if you have the latest thing, make it easy to go back.) 20:10:53 xach: thanks, but i want it all, i want it all today, maybe yesterday! :) 20:10:54 stassats: maybe but I compared a few fiunctions in ecl and sbcl, in general slower but remove-duplicates is an outlier really 20:10:54 rtoym: ok will check 20:11:18 pnq [~nick@host-229.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 20:12:07 -!- Agari [~Agari@131.Red-81-37-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:12:24 bhyde: quicklisp data structures are designed with your use case in mind, but the code doesn't make it easy to take advantage. 20:12:27 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 20:12:33 bhyde: yet 20:12:49 i'm thinking of checking in ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/distinfo.txt , excluding everything else in the quicklisp tree, having a bootstrap to get a developer started, and then if they upgrade the source control tools will recomend checkin the fresh distinfo.txt and their deviance from norm will be duely noted 20:13:04 for example, old versions of projects are never deleted, so old indexes will always refer to valid files. 20:13:33 xach - yes, seeing all that elegance is what tempted me into this boondoggle :) 20:14:01 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:14:05 -!- smakinen [~smo@dsl-jklbrasgw1-ffbfc300-84.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:14:16 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 20:15:54 Yow! Brucio is guestblogging for jrm! http://funcall.blogspot.com/2011/02/critique-of-reason.html 20:16:49 bhyde: I need to figure out how to identify a particular version of a dist for the purposes of installing it, and how to enumerate what versions of a dist are available, and some other things. 20:16:59 Like deleting directory trees across supported Lisps... 20:20:06 Xach: haha - is Bruce Louis Reasoner's middle name? 20:20:18 xach: but but i want something really simple! not that I know what i mean by that :) mostly I want to be able to keep a minimum subset of the quicklisp tree in source control, have the rest pulled from the cloud by individual developers, and to pin quicklisp things to a particular release point. i think by release point i mean release of quicklisp 20:20:59 bhyde: right, that makes a lot of sense, and is a mode i'd like to support. i'm trying to think about the nicest way to support that. 20:21:50 use sha1 hashes of a tree record :) 20:21:56 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:22:10 emoon_ [~emoon@212-107-139-12.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lisp 20:22:11 mducharme1 [~nothing@S0106002401f31855.wp.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:25 reb`` [~user@nat/google/x-khuyyehrbxtinlql] has joined #lisp 20:22:26 kloeri_ [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 20:22:46 xristos_ [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 20:22:47 my pain dejour is that i need to make it trivial for an individual developer to check out the system and get started, and for him to remain in synch with the rest of us, and so an individual developer can know that his is experimenting wth fresher releases from the cloud 20:22:48 fmu___ [u89@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rmdfwuesyeqvkfdc] has joined #lisp 20:22:55 zmyrgel` [~user@hoasb-ff0cdd00-22.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:23:11 df_aldur_ [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:20 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 20:23:22 twem2_ [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:23 psilord3 [~psilord@adsl-99-153-135-105.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:34 kanru1 [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:03 OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 20:24:10 acieroid` [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has joined #lisp 20:24:13 csamuelson_ [~csamuelso@ec2-50-17-240-121.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:24 LiamH1 [~none@132.250.138.103] has joined #lisp 20:24:31 astoon_ [~astoon@109.188.237.127] has joined #lisp 20:24:37 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:38 ineiros_ [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 20:24:44 bhyde: ql:*initial-dist-url* is consulted to bootstrap the indexes. you could give them an init file that overrides it, and set up an internal URL that had frozen indexes. 20:25:11 -!- astoon_ [~astoon@109.188.237.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:32 pmd` [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 20:25:40 i can't figure whether Brucio is being serious or not, it sounds so crazy it might be true 20:26:01 timchen1a [tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 20:26:05 kleppari_ [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 20:26:14 stassats: he's entirely serious! 20:26:31 setheus_ [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:51 xach -- we are thinking that a possible approach is that we just build some tools to inspect a dev's quicklisp setup and report how it's out of sync from a declared setup; we then put that declaration into our source control 20:26:59 superflit_ [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 20:27:12 -!- kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.72] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- reb` [~user@nat/google/x-rubnbekhpdcqtvjb] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.237.127] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- rwallace [~rwallace@79.97.142.152] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- csamuelson [~csamuelso@ec2-50-17-240-121.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- zmyrgel [~user@hoasb-ff0cdd00-22.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:13 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- timchen119 [tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- smithzv [~smithzv@c-71-237-75-86.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- mducharme [~nothing@S0106002401f31855.wp.shawcable.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- fmu__ [~u89@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wgnftdcjubxbcqxf] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- emoon [~emoon@212.107.139.12] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- df_aldur [~df@aldur.bowerham.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- krappie__ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:14 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:27:18 -!- superflit_ is now known as superflit 20:27:36 -!- kloeri_ is now known as kloeri 20:27:41 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.147.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:27:54 -!- csamuelson_ is now known as csamuelson 20:28:05 in the good olde days we would fork a variant of lisp everytime #lisp split 20:29:01 rwallace [~rwallace@79.97.142.152] has joined #lisp 20:29:02 quicklisp supports that model too :) 20:29:21 that would often result in "new" prefixes for whatever (new^n)lisp was cool 20:29:21 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:29:56 alama [~alama@a79-169-84-216.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 20:30:12 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:30:36 -!- cibs [~cibs@140.113.22.82] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:30:42 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.72] has joined #lisp 20:31:06 at least one is still being revised^n 20:32:01 -!- Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:32:05 cibs [~cibs@140.113.22.82] has joined #lisp 20:32:29 Amadiro [~Amadiro@ti0021a380-dhcp2364.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:32:45 -!- setheus_ [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 20:33:27 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 20:34:44 hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:34:53 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:53 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 20:36:51 smithzv [~smithzv@c-71-237-75-86.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:44 rien|work [~user@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:10 is the Lisp Style & Design book still relevant today? 20:38:55 -!- PuffTheMagic_ [8071f8da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.113.248.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:39:19 the quotes I see on the ikki.ws review make it sound like it's worth reading 20:39:25 haven't seen it yet, though 20:39:51 the absence of a recent standard means that most lisp books are still pretty relevant :) 20:40:08 ok. I'm in talks with Elsevier trying to convince them to release it, you know, to drop the copyrights 20:40:16 like other publishers have done with smalltalk books 20:40:29 but they're being stubborn and pretending they don't understand what I'm asking. 20:40:36 -!- Athas` [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:40:49 :) 20:41:09 they're giving me this "we no longer have an editorial staff for that title" excuse as to why they can't decide on releasing the copyright 20:41:17 Athas` [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 they're freaking Elsevier, I'm sure they can decide 20:41:46 "I appreciate your interest in this title that has gone out of print and will no longer be available to the public" <-- 20:42:00 they're being passive aggressive 20:42:17 perhaps you can find someone there that cares through the/an author? 20:42:19 "thanks for being interested in this book that will NEVER SEE the light of day again" 20:42:25 hmm 20:42:44 rien: ask them if they want to sell the rights 20:42:49 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe026.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:42:51 kencausey: let me see. but do you think the author would have any say on releasing the book? 20:43:04 k9quaint: ask that to elsevier or the authors? 20:43:07 I think the author might be more likely to have a contact 20:43:15 whcih one ? 20:43:15 there's a classic story about a chip designed using GP. does anyone have a link handy? 20:43:18 a contact that has some interest in the book 20:43:20 rien: whoever owns them 20:43:34 ok, that's what's hard to find though 20:43:55 I'm talking to Elsevier because "Digital Press" is no more 20:44:20 rien: i'm reading lisp style and design right now... i think it's very good 20:44:29 just say, "I was google employee #18, I want to buy the rights to this book, money is no object" 20:44:39 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe026.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 20:44:46 you will find out pretty fast if they own them :) 20:44:53 pattern: cool, good to know :) 20:44:58 it's hard to find even a used copy of it, though 20:45:01 k9quaint: lol that's clever 20:45:07 i just got lucky that my university library had a copy 20:45:16 pattern: I picked one up from a university's library 20:45:17 right 20:45:20 what if it teaches bad design and you just can't tell? 20:45:28 ive never understood why all publishers dont have a safari style subscription model 20:45:38 'cause they're stuck in the past 20:45:47 dinosaurs and all that talk 20:45:51 hmm :) 20:45:53 like Lisp 20:45:54 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe026.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:46:07 google books should offer some sort of kickstarter fund collection to 'open' a book 20:46:08 I never understood why publishers down chisel their works on sandstone so future generations will know they existed 20:46:15 with matching funds ;) 20:46:24 *down don't 20:47:36 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-206-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:47:50 stassats: you think there's no value in that book? 20:47:59 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:47:59 or you don't have an opinion? 20:48:05 i don't know, i haven't seen it 20:48:10 EarlGray [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:19 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@81.193.35.169] has joined #lisp 20:48:29 -!- hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:30 i just don't trust pattern :) 20:48:40 stassats is the IRC version of a condition :) 20:49:40 :D 20:50:05 more like a pesky compile note! 20:50:10 -!- meingbg`` is now known as meingbg 20:51:24 francogrex [~user@109.130.147.50] has joined #lisp 20:51:47 -!- Athas` [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:51:53 Athas` [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 20:54:57 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe026.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 20:58:03 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.51] has joined #lisp 20:58:38 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.34.146] has joined #lisp 21:00:33 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-166-1.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:48 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-164-148.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:03:27 -!- Athas` is now known as Athas 21:06:52 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-60.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:07:13 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:07:22 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 21:08:36 sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 21:08:48 -!- sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:08 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:56 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 21:11:56 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 21:11:56 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:12:40 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-123-60.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 21:14:12 stassats: still around? 21:15:49 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:53 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 21:16:17 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-206-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:16:35 Good morning everyone! 21:16:41 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:16:49 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 21:16:52 heya, beach 21:16:53 |rgs| [~hujvpalto@109-184-40-163.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 21:17:09 hi 21:19:00 galdor_ [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:42 csamuelson_ [~csamuelso@ec2-50-17-240-121.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:19:46 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Read error: 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Leaving.] 22:33:03 -!- benny [~benny@i577A79FA.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:35:18 bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-115-134.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:08 Hey slyrus 22:39:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl51B61635.pool.t-online.hu] has left #lisp 22:39:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:42:05 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441712.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42:08 rvirding [~chatzilla@h134n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:24 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 22:43:29 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-76-69.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 22:44:19 is there a way to create an fobject in acl that points to existing data instead of using allocate-fobject? if not, is there some way to copy memory from one place to another? 22:44:24 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-155-122.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:45:02 sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:45:29 brodo [~brodo@p5B022D0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:33 -!- jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:46:43 tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:56 apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has joined #lisp 22:47:22 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B022D0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:50:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@79-125.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:55:04 francogr` [~user@109.130.147.50] has joined #lisp 22:55:44 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.147.50] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:56:04 -!- francogr` is now known as francogrex 22:57:06 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:57:25 various packages from quicklisp can't be loaded in latest sbcl 22:57:32 or is it just me? 22:57:46 it begins with babel actually 22:57:50 setmeaway [~setmeaway@183.106.96.22] has joined #lisp 22:57:51 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:57:56 dmytrish [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:02 component "babel" not found 23:00:51 -!- enthymeme [~kraken@76.233.179.123] has quit [Quit: errands] 23:01:54 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:03:04 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:26 fe[nl]ix: In IOLib, should socket-connected-p return NIL on EINVAL (when the socket has been shut down)? (right now it errors) 23:04:07 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:16 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@87.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:40 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.177] has joined #lisp 23:04:51 sellout: no 23:05:15 fe[nl]ix: Damn, then I have to figure out what's wrong with my code ;) 23:05:33 if the socket has been shut down, getpeername(2) should still return a valid address 23:05:52 fe[nl]ix: That's not what getpeername says. 23:06:12 fe[nl]ix: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xns/getpeername.html (at least here) 23:06:25 interesting 23:06:31 it's not what Linux does 23:06:47 *fe[nl]ix* mutters something about POSIX compatibility 23:06:48 And that's what my OS X manpage says, too. 23:07:08 (which is where I'm seeing this behavior) 23:07:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-167-243.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:07:47 -!- Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:08:03 Ah yeah, the Linux manpage has a completely different meaning for EINVAL 23:08:17 What I meant was for that predicate to return T when the socket is definitely connected, NIL when it is disconnected 23:08:55 and signal an error if the FD was closed 23:09:14 Ok, then I guess it behaves as expected. 23:09:27 but I think it's a little too much to expect 23:10:00 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: me -> home...] 23:10:18 Really, the socket shouldn't be getting shut down in the first place, so I've definitely got something going wrong. 23:10:35 to be more precise I was trying to ascertain if the TCP state is ESTABLISHED 23:10:51 getpeername seemed to be an easy and portable way to do that 23:10:54 -!- rien is now known as rien|away 23:11:07 I think I'll have to take another route 23:11:50 on Linux I can peek at the TCP state with a non-standard socket option, on other OSes I don't know 23:12:16 please open a ticket on launchpad, otherwise I'll forget about it :) 23:15:28 -!- mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:15:36 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.147.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:16:53 fe[nl]ix: Ok, will do. 23:17:12 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw81ffe026.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:21:46 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 23:22:23 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 23:23:24 dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:53 -!- LittleQNCCU [~littleq@dream.cs.nccu.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:24:03 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:25:40 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@86.Red-83-33-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:27:42 sykopomp: Hi! I'm testing chillax for a web app. When I try using put-attachment I get an UNEXPECTED CONDITION from Drakma, even though the response is 201 {"ok":true}. But the file attachment still does not get created on CouchDB... 23:29:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:33 -!- Agari [~Agari@131.Red-81-37-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 23:35:14 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:35:38 sellout: anyway, you shouldn't use socket-connected-p in application code 23:35:44 I'm designing a DSL for user/policy description. Of these two forms, which do you think would be preferrable ? http://paste.lisp.org/display/119691 Is there a better way ? 23:35:48 sellout: better leave it for debugging only 23:36:18 fe[nl]ix: Oh, I'm not  it's getting called in FINISH-OUTPUT. 23:40:04 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:41:07 -!- sc0ty [~user@a85-138-126-73.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:43:10 sellout: oh, my bad 23:43:16 I'll fix that 23:43:23 fe[nl]ix: Actually, sorry, that's not quite what's happening  my code fails with a hangup, the test suite catches it and then prints the condition  the condition prints the socket, which calls socket-connected-p. 23:43:47 I see 23:44:24 So maybe the PRINT-OBJECT should just catch stuff or something *shrug* 23:44:56 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-206-181.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:46:22 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslek153.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:46:32 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 23:47:34 hi, how can I convert between lisp time (get-universal-time) and Unix time? 23:47:36 on sbcl 23:49:04 ignotus: add the requisite number of seconds (-: 23:49:14 (srsly, that's how sbcl does it) 23:49:51 antifuchs: hehe, where is that bit in SBCL?:) 23:49:52 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:50:04 let me check 23:50:28 I fumbled around with apropos but could not find it 23:51:30 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-187-53.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:58 -!- bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-115-134.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:52:34 (defconstant unix-to-universal-time 2208988800) ; in src/code/time.lisp (: 23:53:11 antifuchs: ah, that's it, thanks! 23:54:25 I'm not sure, but there may be libraries that abstract this away for you. 23:55:10 -!- kme70 [~martin@p4FF7AABB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: kme70] 23:55:58 sellout: I committed a temporary fix, ignoring EINVAL 23:57:08 fe[nl]ix: Gracias. 23:57:19 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634335.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:59:42 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving]