00:00:16 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-120-221.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:00:52 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-137-167.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:01 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 00:03:06 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:05:05 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@109.58.16.148.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp 00:05:10 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.82.5] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 00:05:14 banisterfiend [~horse@115.189.196.20] has joined #lisp 00:06:45 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-109.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:08:34 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:56 -!- maxigas [~user@dsl51B653B9.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:10:23 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:50 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:05 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has joined #lisp 00:11:15 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.37.103.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:11:51 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@81.193.35.153] has joined #lisp 00:13:55 mathrick: you can run qemu to emulate a 64-bit processor on a 32-bit system. 00:14:18 of course, it'd be slow, but it should run. At least as fast as the original machine. 00:14:23 yes, but it's a lot more work, and horribly slow 00:14:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:14:49 besides, the 64-on-32 emulation is broken in recent qemu, and I can't get them even to acknowledge my bugreport 00:14:58 :-( 00:15:30 That said, last time I bought a processor, the cheapest was a 64-bit one. 00:15:33 (last year). 00:15:33 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 00:16:24 So if you have 30 bucks to spare, upgrade! 00:16:41 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-192-68.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:52 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.177.105] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:22:01 -!- alama [~alama@a79-169-94-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: alama] 00:22:25 -!- Kruppe [~user@134.117.254.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:24:17 pjb: I have a 64-bit CPU. Just not a 64-bit system 00:24:21 mathrick: also, prepare an old 64bit linux install to run VLM2 00:24:34 æh? 00:24:59 ah, you mean how it hates new X and stuff? 00:25:10 mathrick: supervisors such as Xen allow you to run both 32-bit and 64-bit systems. 00:26:26 kvm would actually cause less work 00:27:53 p_l|backup: elaborate? 00:28:15 pjb: yeah, but I didn't set this machine up for sucj experiments 00:28:55 mathrick: yes. It's a shame supervisors are not running by default on all machines. Perhaps when they'll be completely stable and debugged... 00:30:41 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:30:50 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:25 sykopomp: (in case you still have doubts): when you use reduce #'append on something like ((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9) (10 11 12)) without :from-end t, you first copy (1 2 3) then (1 2 3 4 5 6) then (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9). This is quadratic. With :from-end t you first copy (7 8 9) then (4 5 6) then (1 2 3) which is linear. 00:35:27 banisterfiend`` [~horse@118.82.154.61] has joined #lisp 00:35:51 beach: ah! Thanks! 00:36:49 mathrick: kvm is simpler, *much* simpler, to set up 00:36:50 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@115.189.196.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:37:08 -!- ASau [~user@95-26-230-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:08 p_l|backup: compared to what? 00:37:18 mathrick: to Xen 00:37:41 it also doesn't support 64-on-32, as far as I can tell 00:37:51 load a 64bit kernel, use 32bit userland, and grab a statically-compiled 64bit qemu-kvm to run a minimalistic Linux with old X11 00:38:39 mathrick: cause you can't run natively 64-on-32. It's a hw limitation. You need 64bit supervisor (which in case of KVM, is simply a kernel module) 00:39:02 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-13-127.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:39:31 hmm, I wonder if I can swap out the kernel on an existing install 00:40:05 ASau [~user@95-26-230-11.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 00:40:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:44:03 VirtualBox is pretty easy to setup too. 00:44:21 -!- banisterfiend`` [~horse@118.82.154.61] has left #lisp 00:48:04 rtoym: yeah, but it would require 64bit kernel as well 00:48:48 Yes, it does. 00:48:51 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@74.209.54.217] has joined #lisp 00:49:04 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:46 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-39-127.w92-156.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:59:04 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:00:07 -!- BrandLeeJones 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[~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 04:15:09 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.84.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:17:55 beach, good morning 04:18:02 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:18:36 redline6` [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:30 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.10] has joined #lisp 04:24:34 kushal: Wow! It took you nearly 7 hours to react! :) 04:25:09 beach, you wrote something 7 hours back ? 04:25:33 or is that someone else using my nick ? 04:25:45 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-117-158.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:25:49 kushal: I did, I wrote "good morning everyone". 04:26:04 :-) 04:26:15 beach, hehe 04:26:20 kushal: But perhaps you wanted to ask or tell me something right now? 04:26:56 beach, no, just wanted to say hi :) 04:27:21 in between I am trying to push some 1st year engineering students to lisp 04:27:45 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 04:27:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 04:27:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 04:30:35 kushal: Oh, good luck. Engineering students are a stubborn bunch. 04:31:08 condition is even worse here in India 04:31:38 kushal: I can very well imagine that. 04:32:51 :) 04:33:05 beach, asking them to start from htdp , is that ok ? 04:34:00 kushal: The book? Haven't read it so I don't know. 04:34:10 ok 04:34:21 kushal: From the names on the cover, it looks like it might be about Scheme. 04:34:44 Yes, htdp is to learn Scheme. 04:35:39 <_danb_> racket specifically 04:36:12 I haven't made up my mind whether it is good to start with something like Scheme in order to learn CL. I know I made up my mind that it is a bad idea to study Latin in order to learn (say) French. I tend to think the same about Scheme/CL. 04:36:43 Well, actually learning some Latin is very good to learn Scheme. 04:36:46 French I mean. 04:37:01 It helps understand etymology. 04:37:27 <_danb_> agreed, I think it's good for that; wish I could remember the little bit I did 04:37:29 But it doesn't help you buy a baguette. 04:37:38 pjb: It is. In fact, it is even better if you know English, Spanish, Italian, Romanian, Romansh, and Maltese in order to learn French. But when time is limited, there are som tough choices to make. 04:37:51 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-161-64-51.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:37:52 Sure. 04:38:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:38:43 kushal [~kdas@117.201.102.13] has joined #lisp 04:38:50 -!- kushal [~kdas@117.201.102.13] has quit [Changing host] 04:38:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:40:19 I guess I was burned by my years wasted on Scheme and the attitude of many people using Scheme towards other languages in general and CL in particular. 04:42:33 Bahrain [Bahrain@oldwww4.internection.com] has joined #lisp 04:42:45 -!- Bahrain is now known as mattdp 04:42:49 -!- mattdp is now known as Bahrain 04:42:52 beach: What do you mean? 04:42:54 -!- Bahrain is now known as mattdp 04:43:02 -!- mattdp is now known as Bahrain 04:43:45 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:43:52 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:04 drdo: At the time I was more naïve and fell for the propaganda that a programming language should be small, "clean", "hygienic", etc. I ended up programming a few object systems in Scheme, all of which were wasted because the implementation I had choses stopped being maintained. Now I value a large standard. 04:49:26 s/choses/chosen/ 04:49:49 man that guy Zhivago is a huge troll in #c 04:50:05 apparently half the C forums on the net cite him as a notorious troll haha 04:51:17 drdo: slightly more negative scheme experience here. My scheme prof made it seem like a language for ivory towers only. 04:51:43 I think Racket is trying to shed the minimal image. 04:54:00 chopwood [~chopwood@c-24-63-111-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:37 beach: I think that they were probably right. The small, clean, hygenic language being coupled to a great big dirty library. 04:55:48 beach: I suspect that explains much of clojure's success. 04:57:29 beach: I think that rhino gives a similar example in coupling javascript with java libraries. 04:58:02 -!- redline6` [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:58:41 yeah, clojure makes so little sense in so many ways. it's a sexp language, it should be self-compiling. the only languages we aren't self-compiling are syntax ones. 04:58:51 *which aren't 05:00:05 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:00:31 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:04 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 05:02:13 chopwood: Um, can you give an example of a language that isn't 'self-compiling'? 05:02:24 or at least explain what you mean by that term. 05:02:36 Non turing complete languages often fail being able to compile themselves. 05:02:42 Eg. you can't write sed in sed. 05:05:05 Zhivago: any language that's permanently binding-based: ruby, python, clojure, etc. there's no bootstrapping to lift itself out of infancy. most of lisp is written in lisp, but most of python is written in C. 05:05:28 sed... turing complete... scary... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sed 05:05:48 chopwood: Um, what does "permanantly binding-based" mean? 05:06:19 chopwood: Do you think that you cannot rebind variables in python? 05:06:19 nuntius: yes, sed with a loop is turing complete. cpp too, with a loop. 05:06:45 chopwood: you can write a lisp in python can't you? 05:07:21 isn't pypy python written in python? 05:08:11 I mean that python is written in C. Python doesn't start with a smaller compiler, using itself to compile python. 05:08:30 chopwood: not all python implementations are written in C. Some are written in Lisp, some in Python. 05:08:39 chopwood: there are also liso written in C. 05:08:48 I think chopwood's slightly confusing things, but rightly pointing out that "implementing clojure" requires implementing the JVM and Java libs first. 05:09:12 now we are talking about something else. I'm talking about any language, like the original python, which is not metacircular. 05:09:35 (my response was to pjb) 05:09:52 chopwood: Why can't you redefine python in python? 05:10:05 chopwood: you're confusing languages and implementations. 05:10:11 chopwood: What does "permanantly binding-based" mean? 05:10:22 chopwood: a language cannot be 'metacircular'. Only an implementation can be. 05:10:28 Zhivago: you can't, but as I said I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a language with permanent bindings to a library--a language designed like that. 05:10:40 like the original python 05:10:50 there are other pythons, but it's moot and totally irrelevant 05:11:11 there's an inherent limitation of not being metacircular 05:11:47 I don't see how a language can be with 'permanent binding to a library'. Only an implementation can have such a property. 05:13:15 pjb: I've said three times that I'm talking about the original python implementation. 05:13:30 Ok. So don't say language, say implementation. 05:14:07 chop: What is this "permanant bindings to a library"? Which bindings can't be reassigned in python? 05:14:19 I thought it was pretty clear when I said "original python". 05:14:31 and said other implementations are beside the point; moot 05:14:44 chop: Can I not replace random with my own object? 05:14:46 Zhivago: he's saying python was bound to C libs. not anything about variable bindings. 05:15:20 chop: Could I not have my own object use random, and then use that object instead in order to bootstrap that? 05:15:31 chop: I think that you haven't thought this through carefully. 05:15:41 I think its OT. 05:15:48 *chopwood* rolls eyes 05:15:58 It's not complicated. 05:16:30 chop: No, but it seems that you are wrong. 05:16:39 SO you're saying that the python that is written in C is not written in Python. 05:16:43 Duh! 05:18:39 The question is -- which parts of the python libraries could you not rewrite in python, even given the cpython implementation? 05:19:56 Which part of lisp are we talking about? 05:20:52 nuntius: cl-python. 05:23:22 Zhivago: you're still missing the essential point. Take an example. Suppose you want to code-transform a method in CPython. In CPython itself. The tools are in C land. The language doesn't understand itself. 05:23:42 chop: But, it does. 05:23:51 With pypy. 05:24:13 You can even extend the syntax of cpython in python. 05:24:37 Have a look at the 'goto' extension. 05:25:03 again, you keep mentioning other implementations. totally moot. I'm talking about CPython. Sure you can write python in python, in which case you are overcoming the exact barrier I am talking about. 05:25:15 Is there a clojure written in clojure? 05:25:42 I'm talking about cpython you retard. 05:25:49 http://entrian.com/goto/ 05:25:52 chopwood: I think there's something in the works, yes. 05:27:01 The problem is that you don't understand cpython, but you think that you do. 05:27:18 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has left #lisp 05:28:04 I still don't see the relevance to lisp. 05:28:15 Somebody was wrong on the internets... 05:29:34 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:30:27 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 05:30:34 Well, it started with some confused assertion that only non sexp based languages are not self hosting, and this made clojure a weird exceptional case. 05:30:40 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.1] has joined #lisp 05:30:52 Then it veered off into misinformation about python. 05:31:12 so we're done? 05:31:23 Anybody have cool GSoC ideas? 05:31:32 Well the way scheme is defined, it's not self hosting. At least not like CL would be... 05:31:52 well I know you're distoring what I said, quite explicitly in bad faith. 05:31:55 oh well. 05:32:00 Hum, I'm always wondering if it's possible to use loop to do something like (loop for x below 1000 get-the-x-such-that-it-maximizes (foo x)) 05:32:06 nobody can be that dense. 05:32:18 Axioplase: nop 05:32:25 danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:32:28 Axioplase: iterate can do that 05:32:41 iterate? let me have a look at it then. 05:32:47 -!- chopwood [~chopwood@c-24-63-111-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:33:51 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-83-50.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:37:53 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:44:51 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:45:05 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 05:45:13 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:26 -!- icbh [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:48:25 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:33 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:33 icbh [~icbh@ntszok054022.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:50:52 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:51:27 gko [~gko@114-137-25-181.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:29 Hum, I quickloaded iterate, but (iterate (for x below 10) (finding x maximizing x)) says x is unbound 05:53:22 (iterate (for x below 10) (finding x maximizing (foo x))) ; perhaps? 05:55:21 pjb: same thing. 05:56:05 I even have some compilation errors 05:56:47 wfm. 05:56:58 Do I have to prefix everything with iterate: ? 05:57:08 (ql:quickload :iterate) (use-package :iterate) (iterate (for x below 10) (finding x maximizing (sin x))) 05:57:19 If you prefer, you can, yes. 05:57:25 Axio pasted "iterate, quicklisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119540 05:57:50 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:57:51 fihi09` [~user@pool-96-224-36-151.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:08 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:58:12 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:19 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-36-151.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:58:24 Ok, that's it. I needed the use-package 05:58:26 pjb: thanks 05:59:29 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:04:26 -!- Jin [~user@117.198.113.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:07:14 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tpdnjdbyszkmbdhn] has joined #lisp 06:11:33 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:23:23 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 06:28:01 -!- cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:28:13 cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has joined #lisp 06:28:14 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:28:25 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:34 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:29:35 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Client Quit] 06:29:48 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:30:26 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:30:52 -!- seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 06:47:51 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:51:08 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 06:55:13 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.93.119] has quit [Quit: ] 06:57:15 sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:32 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:47 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:04:22 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA26516.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:05:12 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:06:31 -!- danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:12:07 -!- ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:12:10 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:21:47 Liera [~Liera@123.21.159.33] has joined #lisp 07:24:07 slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 07:24:16 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:24:17 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:24:17 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:30:18 leo2007 [~leo@117.24.78.4] has joined #lisp 07:30:56 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:31:02 ilowhy [~ilowhy@124.124.225.20] has joined #lisp 07:31:36 (let ((my-lambda `(lambda (x y z) ...))) `#',my-lambda ) and (let ((my-lambda `(lambda (x y z) ...))) (compile nil my-lambda)) -- what's the difference? 07:34:46 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:35:14 ah, the former is not funcallable, it's just a quoted #'(lambda (x y z) ...), while the later is a compiled lambda function 07:36:29 astoon [~astoon@109.188.229.140] has joined #lisp 07:39:03 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B326203.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:41 -!- daniel [~daniel@p50829E05.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:43:27 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:44:57 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:45:12 good morning 07:46:07 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:18 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:50:06 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 07:52:56 gonzojive: to transform a lambda expression into a function, you can use (compile nil x), (eval x) or (coerce x 'function). 07:53:20 gonzojive: on a given implementation each can have different effects, but all produce a funcallable object. 07:56:37 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:57:29 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:57:42 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:01:56 -!- whee [~whee@misplaced.smaertness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:10 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:03:13 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:03:47 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:13 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-15-149.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:09:21 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:42 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 08:11:32 e-user 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08:31:13 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:34:04 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 08:36:28 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 08:39:31 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:40:14 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 08:41:02 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 08:41:16 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:43:46 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955AEB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:46:04 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:03 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-95-146.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:54:22 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-44-168.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:02 -!- Raykon [~user@bl11-215-14.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:00:50 -!- nuntius [~nuntius@pool-71-162-117-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:01:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@117.24.78.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:01:36 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 09:01:54 -!- gko [~gko@114-137-25-181.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:02:37 gonzojive1 [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:20 hello mvilleneuve 09:06:37 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:08:27 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-gewyiqtcdpbnwsav] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:08:32 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09:48 morning lispers 09:10:17 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:14:45 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@81.193.35.153] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:15:17 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.229.140] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:16:24 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:17:36 nuntius [~nuntius@pool-71-162-117-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:39 -!- am0c [~am0c@180.224.41.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:21:18 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:23:12 What's the simplest library I could use to read colors from a PNG pixel-by-pixel? 09:23:58 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:25:59 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.17.17] has joined #lisp 09:27:39 Ralith: Check out opticl. It is being worked on (by slyrus) at the moment, but perhaps reading PNG already works. 09:27:48 hello kiuma 09:27:52 wakeup [~max@p5DE8FCBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:55 hiho 09:28:04 hello wakeup 09:28:19 I am still a little confused about symbols 09:28:48 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:29:03 beach: anything more mature to fall back on? 09:29:47 I use them as keys, and I translate lists of symbols to pathnames. Now I also have a function that returns a list of symbols, related to the filesystem. Should these strings be interned or passed to make-symbol? 09:29:50 Joreji [~thomas@90-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:29:51 Ralith: I don't know, but I wouldn't hesitate using opticl. slyrus comes here often and he seems determined to make it work. 09:30:03 Marcux [~Adium@189.121.111.41] has joined #lisp 09:30:12 okay, will give it a go, thanks 09:30:35 wakeup: it sounds like you're misusing symbols 09:32:52 Ralith: but I am not :) 09:33:09 unless using them as keys instead of strings is a misuse 09:33:09 am0c [~am0c@59.6.39.163] has joined #lisp 09:33:16 wakeup: that is a misuse. 09:33:21 why? 09:33:30 they are faster as far as I know 09:34:05 robbing a convenience store is faster than begging for $100 09:34:12 wakeup: how are symbols related to filesystem? 09:35:03 I wrote a litle data store, and it organizes data with adresses like '(:foo :bar :baz) which corresponds to databaseroot/FOO/BAR/BAZ in the filesystem 09:35:23 -!- keyvan is now known as keyvan_ 09:35:45 I switched to strings in the "adress" because I thought symbols were case insesitive... 09:35:47 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:00 -!- keyvan_ [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36:00 wakeup: no, symbols are not case insesitive 09:36:06 yes 09:36:09 I know 09:36:24 wakeup: so what is it that you are confused about? 09:36:26 thats why I dont see why not to use them for representing file system names 09:37:03 and by name I dont mean /foo/bar/baz but "baz" or "foO!" 09:37:53 wakeup: pathnames are meant for representing file system names 09:37:57 basically I still dont know what the main difference is between using a string or a symbol to identify something 09:38:29 a string is a string, a symbol is a quite complicated data structure, which has, among other things, a name 09:38:42 symbol name is, oh the surprise, a string! 09:39:20 and since I cache my data in hash tables, symbol seems a better fit to me 09:39:36 wakeup: why? can't you use strings as keys in hashtable? 09:40:15 jdz: I did. And it worked fine, but arent symbols better (faster)? 09:40:28 eq is just so sexy I guess 09:40:52 The equivalent operation to a hash-table lookup for symbols is the intern operation ... 09:40:55 wakeup: When you intern a symbol, guess what is happening! You are looking up the name in a hash table, and the name is a string. 09:41:57 Although it might not actually be a hash-tabe. 09:41:57 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:59 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:41:59 how should I have known that? anyways thanks, that is very useful info 09:42:18 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:21 wakeup: Well, you might not have been completely ignorant of basic CS. 09:42:22 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:24 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 09:42:42 wakeup: Because any elementary course in algorithms and data structures would have taught you that. 09:42:51 Zhivago: I didnt go to a university if you mean that. 09:43:08 wakeup: And you never learned how to spell "didn't", either. 09:43:34 wakeup: Ignorance is not a crime, but gratuitous ignorance ought to be. :) 09:43:35 Zhivago: Nope, I learned tolerance and not being an asshole instead. 09:43:48 wakeup: No. I think you failed at that. 09:44:10 so much to elementary 09:44:12 seriously 09:44:42 Just pretend to be an intelligent person and everything should go more smoothly. 09:45:17 many of you are actively discouraging people by treating them badly, mainly because you cant understand the principle of multiple conciousnesses 09:46:02 wakeup: Please learn how to spell "can't". 09:46:07 I use this channel to educate myself when HTML fails, problem with that? 09:46:38 mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 09:46:59 wakeup: Then remember how to spell "can't" for next time. :) 09:47:19 What kind of fascist are you? 09:47:34 I write and talk the way I want, perioid. 09:47:46 wakeup: Please learn how to spell "period". 09:48:09 jesus 09:48:24 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:48:28 Your zombie sky wizard cannot help you here. 09:49:15 Also please learn to capitalize proper names. Har har har! 09:50:32 I would feel sorry for you guys if you asked for help, luckily you are just ignorant of your mental problems... 09:50:43 so it is really not my problem 09:51:36 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:51:39 Pro-Tip: You wont feel better about yourself by trying to make others feel worse. 09:52:14 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:52:40 wakeup: You need a thick skin in this channel, sometimes...I think it's just a kind of initiation ceremony - to see how serious you are about wanting to learn. 09:54:17 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 09:55:14 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:57:41 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:57:47 ZabaQ: I don't have a problem with they way the things are, I have been lurking on the net for long enough to know its inhabitants. Still when I see people acting in patterns that I find to be negative, I try to give some positive advice. 09:58:35 -!- CrazyEddy [~closemout@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:58:55 Also I appreciate the teaching by calling noob thing. Its the best way to learn, but I am just way past that stuff. 10:07:57 -!- am0c [~am0c@59.6.39.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:09:17 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:14:47 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:16:25 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:19:29 beach` [~user@116.118.4.50] has joined #lisp 10:19:44 -!- beach [~user@116.118.72.94] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:19:48 -!- beach` is now known as beach 10:20:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:20:36 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 10:20:37 Joreji [~thomas@90-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:22:42 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 10:22:48 twem2 [~twem2@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:20 -!- Intensity [6ia2pqq0lO@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:28:29 -!- konr [~user@garfield.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28:33 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.117.228] has joined #lisp 10:31:04 I'm starting to think that an interpreter for JasperReports files in CL would be a very nice tool, so one could create pdf reports using http://jasperforge.org/projects/ireport and then render them with cl-pdf 10:31:23 -!- Marcux [~Adium@189.121.111.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:33:10 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:33:21 this software looks fishy ;) 10:38:00 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:39:59 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xjdovyqydsfvtdrd] has joined #lisp 10:44:54 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:48:50 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.17.17] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 10:51:04 wakeup, why ? 10:51:23 Objectivist-C [~Objectivi@S0106001ff34343ab.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:50 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.17.17] has joined #lisp 10:53:31 kiuma: iDontknow 10:54:18 -!- Objectivist-C [~Objectivi@S0106001ff34343ab.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:57:09 d4n [d4n@flexo.g0at.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:13 -!- d4n [d4n@flexo.g0at.net] has left #lisp 11:02:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:04:09 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:04:09 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 11:04:09 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 11:04:11 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:04:20 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-110.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:42 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.84.39] has joined #lisp 11:08:20 kdas_ [~kdas@117.201.102.86] has joined #lisp 11:10:07 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:11:39 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:12:40 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:15:51 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-205-247.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:17:07 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:17:50 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:24:06 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:24:34 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-109.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:26:01 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 11:27:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:29:51 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 11:30:23 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-110.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:30:45 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B1AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:39 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-110.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:52 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:40:36 splittist [~John@ll81-54-224-192-81.ll81.iam.net.ma] has joined #lisp 11:40:38 morning 11:44:51 hi splittist 11:51:41 tfb [~tfb@92.40.14.81.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:52:26 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:56:20 urandom__ [~user@p548A3188.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:45 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.84.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:00:59 carlocci [~nes@93.37.221.160] has joined #lisp 12:02:09 dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has joined #lisp 12:03:27 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:09:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-205-247.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:11:03 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13:45 fe[nl]ix, no news yet :( 12:14:05 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:16:56 rwallace [~rwallace@79.97.142.152] has joined #lisp 12:18:07 orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has joined #lisp 12:18:08 astoon [~astoon@109.188.239.58] has joined #lisp 12:18:21 Hi all, a minor question, what's the most common extension to use for Lisp code files? I've been using .lisp, but I notice the CLOC line counting tool doesn't recognize that, whereas it does recognize .lsp and .cl. 12:19:50 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20:55 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:53 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 12:23:04 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 12:23:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:23:21 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:24:14 -!- orivej [~orivej@rk4015.ws.pu.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:24:54 bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:13 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28:26 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:29:08 .lisp is by far the most common in my experience 12:29:19 Okay, thanks! 12:31:20 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B1AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:31:21 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.84.39] has joined #lisp 12:34:47 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B1AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:12 tcr1 [~tcr@gprs15.swisscom-mobile.ch] has joined #lisp 12:38:02 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:38:14 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 12:39:51 Joreji [~thomas@84-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:41:10 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-137-167.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:28 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 12:41:41 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-137-167.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:41:41 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 12:41:44 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:44:05 Joreji_ [~thomas@84-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:44:13 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 12:46:46 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:48:08 Ragnaroek [8660a3dd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.96.163.221] has joined #lisp 12:52:36 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-137-167.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 12:53:01 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 12:55:28 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.221.160] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 12:56:19 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-135-110.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:57:49 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-xjdovyqydsfvtdrd] has left #lisp 12:58:17 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has joined #lisp 12:58:35 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:58:42 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has quit [Client Quit] 13:01:34 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-187-75.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:03:02 zmv [~daniel@c953305f.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:03:49 greaver [~joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:05:34 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:05:38 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:07:59 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@84-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:16:00 -!- Ragnaroek [8660a3dd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.96.163.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:16:26 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@117.201.102.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:16:48 sellout [~Adium@64.134.66.129] has joined #lisp 13:17:00 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:21:36 -!- sellout [~Adium@64.134.66.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:22:06 rwallace: sloccount doesn't seem to have any problems with .lisp for me. 13:25:38 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:27:49 -!- tobetchi [~tobetchi@p923e46.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:53 tobetchi [~tobetchi@p923e46.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:29:04 tcr2 [~tcr@gprs45.swisscom-mobile.ch] has joined #lisp 13:29:32 LiamH [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:31:20 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@gprs15.swisscom-mobile.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:33:39 MoALTz [~no@92.2.82.175] has joined #lisp 13:35:31 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:37:39 phil_ [~phil@niflheim.parasec.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:23 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-65-60.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:40:24 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:40:38 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:40:54 guinness` [~user@216.252.67.237] has joined #lisp 13:42:15 -!- bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:42:20 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.239.58] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:45:21 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:29 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:31 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-111-142.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:48:25 -!- guinness` [~user@216.252.67.237] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:50:11 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:51:20 -!- greaver [~joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:51:38 luis: nice zslug post 13:51:39 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:51:43 LiamH [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:51:44 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 13:51:54 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:56 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:46 sykopomp, right, sloccount seems to be Unix only, so I was using cloc. I've sent the author a request to add the .lisp extension, in the mean time there is a commandline option to override the defaults 13:56:38 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:53 Xach: let's see if I can make it to two posts this year! 13:57:40 slyrus is dangerously close to the edge 13:57:45 and poor hefner has fallen off 13:57:55 Gary "Warren" King, too! 13:58:30 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-171-12-242.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:58:40 Wow, I'm going to have to purge a lot today. 14:00:19 *Xach* removes king, wozniak, weineb, eynde, moorier, weber, hefner, and franz tech 14:00:41 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 14:01:03 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-83-68.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 14:01:26 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:02:13 why? do they take too much space on the sidebar? 14:03:05 it makes Planet Lisp smell funny 14:03:12 stassats: I don't like the look of feeds that have done nothing for more than 1 year. 14:03:41 -!- splittist [~John@ll81-54-224-192-81.ll81.iam.net.ma] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:04:58 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:05:01 only 1 year? sheesh 14:05:40 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:45 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:06:31 I am a cruel taskmaster. You have to blog at least once a year, like luis. 14:06:32 Might be time to write a lisp post generator. 14:06:56 *Xach* needs to go through his queue of "please add me to planet lisp" emails 14:06:56 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:07:14 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:12 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:08:57 hi 14:09:10 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:28 who's running debian with sbcl and graphical interface for Lisp? 14:10:37 Posterdati: If we were in #emacs, I'd type ",anyone" 14:11:13 Posterdati: gtk Emacs + Slime is probably as graphical as you're gonna get given the first two constraints. 14:11:41 I need help to install and for docs, but I need something close to kde 14:12:07 Posterdati: try commonqt. 14:12:24 thanks 14:13:53 Xach: but I'm close to having a planet.lisp-worthy post 14:13:56 morning folks 14:13:59 slyrus: woo 14:14:11 probably not for a few more days though 14:16:24 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:20:19 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:22:35 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 14:23:38 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:24:23 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.117.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:26:08 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:17 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@gprs45.swisscom-mobile.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:26:27 LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 14:26:28 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:26:28 tcr1 [~tcr@gprs45.swisscom-mobile.ch] has joined #lisp 14:26:48 Pasha [~behnam_pa@78.38.12.29] has joined #lisp 14:26:53 -!- LiamH1 [~healy@129-2-134-55.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 14:29:14 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:16 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-39-127.w92-156.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:29:59 -!- Pasha [~behnam_pa@78.38.12.29] has quit [Quit: Pasha] 14:30:01 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@gprs45.swisscom-mobile.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:30:13 tcr1 [~tcr@gprs45.swisscom-mobile.ch] has joined #lisp 14:31:37 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:41 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:53 sellout [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:19 -!- sellout is now known as Guest51983 14:35:50 -!- Guest51983 [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:14 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:37:35 mega1 pasted "clos sync" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119546 14:38:02 sorry, wrong channel 14:41:06 lurker-x [~androirc@166.188.112.183] has joined #lisp 14:41:12 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:35 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:57 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:59 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2384.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:45:11 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:04 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 14:47:58 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:50:49 benny [~benny@i577A2434.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:31 -!- keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:53:38 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:03 -!- phil_ [~phil@niflheim.parasec.net] has quit [Quit: ircII EPIC4-2.6 -- Are we there yet?] 14:54:23 :( 14:54:31 :) 14:54:33 keyvan [~keyvan@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:34 phil_ had some oldskool flavour on him! 14:54:40 and now hes gone! 14:55:20 fusss [~fusss@120.154.204.15] has joined #lisp 14:55:21 Probably driven away by a subliterate. 14:55:24 Athas, beach, Krystof: does any of you have some time to migrate Climacs repo to something that isn't CVS? Like git 14:56:31 waddup dog! to use LOCAL-TIME with Postmodern, it wants me to change the server TZ to UTC. Does that break all filesystem timestamps and generally cause large-scale octet gonorrhea? 14:56:31 Zhivago: I was about to forget what of a bitch you are :) 14:56:55 wakeup: Go away. 14:57:22 Postmodern's simple-date has no concept of timezones, according to its own admission. 14:57:32 Xach: feel free to make me. 14:57:37 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 14:57:38 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*max@*.dip.t-dialin.net 14:57:45 -!- wakeup [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Go away.) 14:57:48 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 14:57:51 thanks xach 14:57:53 (I don't have a strict need for TZ, maybe I can explain what I'm trying to do and figure out an easier way?) 14:58:18 fusss: timestamps are stored as seconds since the epoch. interpreting them relative to some zone gives you the local time. 14:59:11 Xach: what I'm trying to do is basically show times and dates to 3rd parties, according to their local time-zones 14:59:47 think of it as a hosted log-server; certain event occurs, it gets logged, then displayed to a user at TZ X 15:00:14 decode-universal-time might be handy for that. 15:00:42 can I just bypass time libs and store that puppy as a biginteger? 15:01:15 it literally is an initform, not even touched or seen by the code itself 15:02:04 get-universal-time returns an integer. 15:02:55 I'm confused; I was thinking get-universal-time (the raison d'etre for the decoders anyway) 15:02:57 fusss: how do you tell what TZ X is? 15:03:34 dlowe: no clue. time-management and unicode; two things that I never managed to learn 15:03:34 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-65-60.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:03:55 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tpdnjdbyszkmbdhn] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:04:11 fusss: the reasonable thing to do is to store the time and date in postmodern as UTC instead of the local time 15:04:22 I just wrote a little web front-end for cl-i18n (gettext clone) because I couldn't get any editor on my system to save proper utf-8 15:06:24 dlowe: postmodern already pretends every date is in UTC 15:06:38 milkpost [~milkpost@dpmlh059.divms.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 15:06:50 yes, but you need to actually pass it a UTC time, if you're not using the now() SQL function 15:07:07 dlowe: I'm using NOW 15:07:20 ok, then I'm not sure what the problem is with local-time 15:07:42 except that you're getting confused that it's displaying the time in your local timezone by default 15:07:49 (simple-date:universal-time-to-timestamp (get-universal-time)) 15:09:11 I think I'm gonna ignore the time issue until later 15:09:53 ok. I'm just saying that I don't actually think you have a problem 15:10:08 it won't mess up file timestamps, which are also stored in UTC 15:10:39 cool, good to know 15:10:59 where can I learn more about this anyway? Stevens' book touches this? 15:12:17 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 15:13:03 APUE might. Linux Application Development might also. 15:13:46 Yes, page 19 of APUE. 15:13:59 btw, if anybody wants to try restas, the MVC mechanism is available in two flavors. 1) Lightweight, DEFINE-ROUTE takes a :render-method keyword argument. and 2) Heavy; by binding *default-render-method* to a unique type of your own definition (defstuct uniq); the lib calls your RENDER-OBJECT specialized to UNIQ 15:15:19 (mumble mubble stuff about Closure templates -- yes, the Google js library; archimag wrote a Lisp backend for it, but I prefer cl-who anyway. Also found a way to integrate cl-i18n with the bunch and store message strings in cl-store) 15:15:49 Xach: excellent. I have APUE 1st ed in storage. will get it out tomorrow. 15:18:55 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.17.17] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 15:19:19 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.17.17] has joined #lisp 15:22:08 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:31 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 15:26:56 -!- fusss [~fusss@120.154.204.15] has left #lisp 15:28:53 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.84.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:30:39 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 15:31:18 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 15:31:52 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 15:40:17 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-15-149.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:40:26 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-15-149.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:40:37 if I pass a displaced-array to adjust-array with :displaced-to nil, why do I seem to be unable to get a simple-array back from adjust-array? 15:42:12 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:42:42 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3283364284060266KL2065E@naggum.no.html springs to mind 15:42:49 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:44:32 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.98.9] has joined #lisp 15:46:44 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:47:18 I don't follow... CLHS says "A gets a new ``data region,'' and contents of B are copied into it as appropriate to maintain the existing old contents" 15:47:29 I would have thought that this new array could be simple 15:48:04 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-111-142.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:54:00 *Xach* fiddles around, produces http://xach.com/tmp/defun.png 15:54:31 *rtoym* thought that was a T at first. 15:54:41 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 15:54:41 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 15:54:42 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 15:55:19 thorstadt [~ryan@li172-124.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:01 ak70 [~ak70@80.77.206.208] has joined #lisp 15:56:20 Hmm, I gues the real swoosh goes the other way. 15:56:46 could make it a capital lambda with the swoosh and its mirror image? 15:56:46 Oh yeah. I didn't notice that. 15:57:07 . o O (this opens up an opportunity to make an image macro with FUNCALL in it...) 15:59:15 gz [~gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:29 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:03:41 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 16:04:29 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 16:04:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:05:13 Intensity [UH2MNxfCXr@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 16:07:32 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:07:42 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:09:31 -!- __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:11 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qvvazibbqerzmpwg] has joined #lisp 16:10:48 __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 16:12:18 danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 16:12:26 -!- gz [~gz@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 16:13:03 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:13:14 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:14:19 csamuelson [~csamuelso@173-14-110-121-nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:12 -!- danieljones [~danieljon@qld13-adsl-181.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 16:18:18 in the slime debugger after an exception, doing (sldb-show-source) gives me #DOT> has no debug-block information. 16:18:38 nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has joined #lisp 16:19:04 press M-. on the name of the function in the frame 16:19:43 sldb-show-source tries to pinpoint the exact location in the function, which requires it to have been compiled at a high (IIRC 2) debug setting 16:19:59 rvirding [~chatzilla@c-8b92e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:20:49 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:21:19 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:21:38 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:21:44 silenius [~silenus@p4FC22D95.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:07 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:22:52 nikodemus: tried that already, gave me: cond: Error: DEFINITION-SOURCE of function UGRAPH->DOT did not contain meaningful information. 16:23:03 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:23:25 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.192] has joined #lisp 16:23:30 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:02 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:24:20 M-. only works on the LENGTH symbol, everything else gives an error of some sort 16:24:24 Hum. When writing macros, are you guys careful not to insert forms that don't accept declarations at places in the macroexpansion where they'd be (incorrectly) accepted or it's deemed a total non-problem that I shouldn't bother myself with? Because it seems like it would take quite a few brain cycles to get this exactly right. 16:24:33 then you need to find it the old fashioned way, i guess 16:24:47 wait, _only_ LENGTH? 16:24:50 yeah 16:25:09 it SHOULD be working, shouldn't it? 16:25:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:25:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:25:41 go to some lisp buffer, write (defun foo (x) x), hit C-c C-c on top of that, go to repl, hit M-. foo 16:25:47 what happens? 16:26:04 sec 16:26:22 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.17.17] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 16:26:23 cond: Error: Don't know how to retrieve source location for a SYMBOL 16:26:33 oh, sorry, wait, I did it wrong 16:27:04 OK, it does work 16:27:47 oh, wait, I've been using slime-eval-last-expr instead of slime-compile-defun 16:27:59 that explains it 16:28:14 EVAL -> no source location, pretty much 16:28:44 -!- prip_ [~foo@host241-124-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:28:45 oh, well, after doing slime-compile-file, pressing v nor M-. still don't work 16:28:55 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 16:28:55 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 16:28:55 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:29:09 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-249-102.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:29:19 for the functions defined in that file? 16:29:22 yeah 16:29:29 that's odd 16:29:29 I only have one file 16:29:50 just getting LoL examples to work, and hacking them to do more things 16:30:14 can you lisppaste it, or and example that does the same? (also, what sbcl version?) 16:32:08 1.0.45 16:32:19 paste my source code, you mean? 16:33:06 oh, btw, I created a new inferior lisp, compiled the file, and now global variables are not found... is there something specific about slime-compile-file that causes this? 16:34:15 -!- __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:34:59 ah, okay, compile-AND-LOAD-file instead of compile-file 16:35:13 ... :) 16:35:17 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:35:27 everything works nicely now, thanks for hearing me up :P 16:35:33 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 16:35:37 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@gprs45.swisscom-mobile.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:35:39 (i.e. both v and M-. are working) 16:35:45 hth 16:35:49 C-c C-k delivers :P 16:35:53 __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 16:36:24 yup, and it's also more convenient than the C-c C-e I've been using :P 16:36:48 M-x ansi-term RET RET yes TERPRI RET 16:37:07 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007084.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 16:37:34 slime-compile-defun also loads the compiled function, right? even though it doesn't say and-load 16:38:00 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:38:06 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:38:19 RaceCondition: yes 16:38:24 perfect 16:39:21 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 16:40:05 -!- weirdo [~sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:41:17 prip_ [~foo@host130-128-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:41:40 js0000 [~js@67.208.188.68] has joined #lisp 16:41:57 I guess I'll have to raise my debug setting to see argument names instead of SB-DEBUG::ARG-N 16:43:03 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 16:43:06 yes 16:43:20 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 16:44:29 chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 16:44:29 -!- chiguire|m [~chiguire@190.39.219.179] has quit [Changing host] 16:44:29 chiguire|m [~chiguire@gentoo/developer/chiguire] has joined #lisp 16:45:33 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:48:49 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:31 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:47 oh, the traceback just became so much nicer with debug level set to 3 :P 16:52:30 funny--even though pressing v that the error comes from (coerce blabla 'string), the first item in the traceback is (length blabla) 16:55:24 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 16:55:58 Xach: hah, just defun it. That's my new desktop background. 16:56:02 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:56:49 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qvvazibbqerzmpwg] has left #lisp 16:57:01 yay 16:57:14 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:54 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:04:29 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:25 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e37.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:39 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:05:51 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-121-90.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:07:24 -!- tobetchi [~tobetchi@p923e46.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:48 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:36 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@c-8b92e255.56-4-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 17:14:57 Liera` [~Liera@113.172.32.55] has joined #lisp 17:15:07 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:17:14 -!- Liera [~Liera@123.21.159.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:17:20 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-83-50.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 17:18:53 dralston [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:25 -!- Liera` is now known as Liera 17:21:22 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:21:31 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:21:48 nakiya [~nakiya@112.135.223.23] has joined #lisp 17:22:09 Hello 17:22:52 ... 17:23:01 this room ok for newb? 17:23:53 -!- nakiya [~nakiya@112.135.223.23] has left #lisp 17:24:13 nakiya [~nakiya@112.135.223.23] has joined #lisp 17:24:29 What does the word "newb" mean? 17:25:02 dunno 17:25:09 :p 17:25:33 got a question 17:25:40 can someone please help me out 17:25:42 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:46 ? 17:25:56 tobetchi [~tobetchi@p923e46.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:26:07 nakiya: hi, there. what's your question? 17:26:13 hi 17:26:17 errm 17:26:26 I wanna learn lisp 17:26:32 and I picked a project 17:26:38 want some pointers 17:26:47 before I actually start coding 17:26:51 minion: tell nakiya about PCL 17:26:52 kraison [~kraison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 17:26:52 nakiya: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:27:02 I read it 17:27:06 half of it 17:27:09 -!- kraison [~kraison@70.90.182.149] has left #lisp 17:27:32 nakiya: Please don't write so many lines. If you've got a whole thought, put it on one line. 17:27:35 have you also worked through the practicals? 17:27:42 its a very good intro to Common Lisp (the specific variant of Lisp dealt with in this room); well worth reading / referring as needed 17:27:52 ok here goes 17:28:35 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007084.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:29:57 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:50 *p_l|backup* today had seen the best portrayal of GPL ever 17:33:33 as Borg - "resistance is futile, you'll be assimilated" >_> 17:36:29 In the company I work (which works with stock market data), we store entity definitions (corresponding to securities, brokerages, etc) in an oracle database. Our programming language is C++, so, we load these entities from db, bind values to classes already defined with needed fields, and use them. We send these entities over the network by packing these class objects to 'Messages' and unpacking at the other end, reconverting to class objects and so on. I wan 17:36:31 ted to know if it is feasible to try and generate code for this entire process using lisp (In turn learn it). Any ideas appreciated much. I know there are stuff like object relational mappings, serialization and such, but my company prefers to live in the stone age. 17:37:35 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 17:38:07 I would also recommend land of lisp for trying to learn :-) 17:38:14 nakiya: major Common Lisp implementations are full-featured systems languages (like C++), with a large variety of libraries to provide typical function sets (e.g., such as ORM, etc.)....anything is essentially feasible in CL if you have enough time or resources 17:39:35 hargettp: I don't want to use CL to create application for that. I want to generate C++ code. Or am I thinking wrong? 17:39:50 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:40:00 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:46 nakiya: there isn't that much support for C++ code generation in CL, and even C isn't that hot. 17:40:47 writing c++ directly isn't an option? 17:40:51 nakiya: not sure there is a right or wrong...but an advantage of Lisp is that very *naturally* one can generate more Lisp code...and then immediately run it...hence, generating C++ seems like a waste of a perfectly good Lisp implementation :) 17:41:22 Pragmatically, if you must generate C++, it seems like a more mainstream language would be a better choice. I 17:42:31 I've used perl for that sort of task before, and it didn't seem like it was much more or less awkward than CL would have been, and it could be maintained by more people. 17:42:48 nakiya: yeah, it's not immediately obvious to me that CL is better suited to this problem domain than other languages...altho in general an adept user of CL can be extremely productive in any domain... :) 17:43:01 hargettp: I think understand. But I can't ever convince anyone else in my company. 17:43:20 I want to LEARN lisp 17:43:24 :p 17:43:32 and i want a real project 17:44:05 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-15-149.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:44:23 -!- dralston [~dralston@S0106687f74a12729.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:46:10 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dpmlh059.divms.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:47:43 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:48:05 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:49:23 nakiya: you will find many advocates of CL here, and folks who can help you learn...but unfortunately, I think you will need to find justification for the use of CL in this case on your own :) 17:49:24 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:36 hmm 17:49:41 samIamIsam [~samIamIsa@wn14jp.aic.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:50:42 fair enough. I'll start then. Is it ok to ask technical questions here? Or what is the best place for that considering I have had almost 0 LISP exposure? 17:50:42 emacs lisp seems well suited to taking text in one form and converting to a different form which could coincidentally be C++ code. and you don't have to tell your boss its lisp - you're just using a new editor. 17:50:48 nakiya: you could always try and write an interface for your messaging system in CL; that might be useful to prototype stuff. 17:51:15 pkhuong: Yep. That's a good idea 17:51:33 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 17:51:45 nakiya: this place can be helpful when you have specific questions...it usually helps if you can share some context about the question, and demonstrate that you yourself have exhausted your research options before coming here (e.g., if Google can tell you in the first page of results, don't ask here) 17:51:50 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:52:03 nakiya: It's not great to ask questions that are answered by introductory lisp books, but if you're stuck on something or want ideas, this is a pretty good place. 17:52:19 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-128-113.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:22 -!- ak70 [~ak70@80.77.206.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:52:37 ok. 17:52:40 nakiya: that's why we mention things like PCL right away...be sure your question isn't answered some of the more popular books, before posting :) 17:52:54 Thanks for the help guys. 17:52:58 yw :) 17:53:06 nakiya: also it is called "Lisp". 17:53:30 I'll see you in about a week then :p 17:54:05 -!- nakiya [~nakiya@112.135.223.23] has left #lisp 17:54:06 nakiya: also don't hesitate to start coding lisp... reading is not enough 17:56:42 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:58:44 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:07 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-15-149.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 18:00:21 Liera` [~Liera@113.172.58.32] has joined #lisp 18:03:05 -!- Liera [~Liera@113.172.32.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:03:18 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 18:04:01 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-128-113.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:04:25 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-128-113.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:04:50 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:06:42 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:07:35 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:08:00 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:08:26 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 18:08:28 let's say i have this list: (setf foo '(nil a nil b c nil)) 18:08:34 is there a shorter and more idiomatic way of removing the nils in that list than this? (remove-if #'null foo) 18:08:48 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-evtzfnmasqjzbhhi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:09:47 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-83-68.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:10:10 -!- Liera` [~Liera@113.172.58.32] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:10:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@84-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:11:22 pattern: (remove nil foo)? 18:13:36 thanks 18:14:04 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 18:14:27 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:17:51 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:52 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:02 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 18:19:45 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 18:19:49 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:53 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 18:24:47 hm. 18:24:57 is there a way to get the slime-inspector to be useful with long strings? 18:25:23 so far, I've been able to show them either truncated to a length that isn't useful to me, or to show them as character arrays, which isn't particularly readable 18:25:39 any way to show me the string as it would be printed, without any length restrictions? 18:26:40 uh. the "Describe" context menu item does that 18:26:43 ah well (: 18:27:33 antgreen: "p" 18:27:34 antifuchs: just press P 18:27:43 yeah maybe capital P 18:27:48 sorry its lowercase 18:27:53 mistyped shift 18:28:07 oh! 18:28:12 p works too. nice. 18:28:14 thanks (: 18:29:38 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:29:47 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:31:37 lirt [~lirt@88.205.164.43] has joined #lisp 18:33:28 Joreji [~thomas@90-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:35:06 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:36:02 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:37:32 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 18:37:44 panike [~nwp@cedric.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 18:37:45 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:50 -!- panike [~nwp@cedric.cs.wisc.edu] has left #lisp 18:41:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@90-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:42:04 Joreji [~thomas@90-159.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:43:01 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007002.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 18:43:08 -!- lirt [~lirt@88.205.164.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:43:21 lirt [~lirt@94.51.58.95] has joined #lisp 18:44:55 -!- iisjmii [~iisjmii@197-248.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:45:06 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:17 -!- jso [~user@wsip-70-164-99-62.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:33 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:31 ilowhy_ [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has joined #lisp 18:49:40 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-128-113.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:49:49 jdz [~jdz@host47-89-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:53:01 pnq [~nick@host-235.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 18:55:28 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.15/2009101909]] 19:00:46 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:18 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:03:03 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:06:21 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:07:24 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:11:28 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:11:28 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 19:11:28 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:14:06 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:16:11 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:46 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 19:21:48 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@muze.x.rootbsd.net] has left #lisp 19:22:01 <_8david> is the argument order to alexandria's REMOVEF intentionally different from REMOVE, PUSHNEW and the like? 19:22:10 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:23:14 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:06 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:25:22 _8david: see REMF? 19:28:56 _8david: if not using callf-n, it's cumbersome not to do that 19:30:04 mishoo_ [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 19:30:50 beach: uh, where *is* opticl? 19:31:38 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC22D95.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:33:14 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:33:18 *_8david* notes that remf is consistent with getf 19:33:41 mutually inconsistent internal consistencies 19:33:55 yeah getf is crazy :-) 19:36:12 _8david: I guess it's a consequence of define-modify-macro 19:36:12 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.142] has joined #lisp 19:36:55 <_8david> does callf-n exist outside of the alexandria mailing list archive? 19:38:44 in our repository :-) 19:40:55 -!- drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:44:25 _danb_ [~user@124-171-12-242.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 19:45:12 what does callf-n stand for anyway? 19:45:14 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:48:44 <_8david> antifuchs: http://www.mail-archive.com/alexandria-devel@common-lisp.net/msg00020.html 19:49:51 ok, this was one level of abbreviation too many for me 19:50:27 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-83-68.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 19:50:33 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-83-68.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:51:28 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:51:43 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 19:53:45 -!- ilowhy_ [~ilowhy@183.83.53.180] has left #lisp 19:54:54 hi _8david 19:55:08 -!- lirt [~lirt@94.51.58.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:55:22 <_8david> hi there 19:55:43 -!- tobetchi [~tobetchi@p923e46.sagant01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:55 Sprayzor` [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:02 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:20 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c145e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:31 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-83-68.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 19:58:42 hi 19:58:57 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:00:00 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.142] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:01:47 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:51 Are optimize qualities only intended as hints for the implementation or user-defined macros and compiler-macros can change the code they generate based on them too? 20:06:11 espadrine [~espadrine@acces1426.res.insa-lyon.fr] has joined #lisp 20:06:30 Hexstream: both are true 20:07:26 although ANSI CL has no means to inspect declrations 20:07:34 lirt [~lirt@94.50.16.248] has joined #lisp 20:08:30 lakatos [~istvan@83.166.210.157] has joined #lisp 20:08:59 Hey Guys 20:09:03 So really, in practice it's just for the implementation... Anyway it's probably better if I avoid that can of worms ;P 20:09:06 lakatos: Hello. 20:09:10 timor [~timor@port-92-195-202-238.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:09:27 What editor do you guys use to work with lisp? 20:09:29 Hexstream: cltl2 exntensions are pretty common 20:09:32 lakatos: Emacs 20:09:35 lakatos: Emacs, hands down. 20:09:40 + Slime. 20:09:41 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-128-113.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:10 Yeah, I use Emacs too to edit Lisp code 20:10:12 emacs + slime. The alternatives are: suffering, pain, and horror. 20:10:26 But I love vim ! 20:10:35 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-8-91.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:10:39 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:10:53 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007002.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:10:54 Isn't there a way to use vim with lsip? 20:11:00 lakatos: That's the "suffering" option with respect to Lisp. 20:11:06 lisp 20:11:21 lakatos: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52?&noredirect has some good info 20:11:31 There is "a way", but it's much less supported all around than in Emacs. 20:11:34 <_danb_> lakatos: I uses emacs, viper, paredit and slime when doing cl 20:12:07 <_danb_> emacs is like an onion 20:12:35 how does viper work? 20:12:44 How vi-ish does emacs become? 20:12:53 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007050.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 20:12:55 hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:01 <_danb_> it becomes vi-ish but not vim-ish 20:13:08 <_danb_> there are 5 levels I think 20:13:10 like swimming against current 20:13:16 <_danb_> I just have it on level 5 20:13:26 <_danb_> in vipers insert state you have most of vanilla emacs 20:13:36 <_danb_> in viper's command state, you still have a bit 20:13:42 <_danb_> but you also have core vi keys 20:14:02 gonzojive [~red@c-98-207-157-93.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:27 *_danb_* reminds everyone that he's not danb 20:15:06 everyone should've guessed by now 20:15:15 The thing is that I'm thinking of learning a new keyboard layout, Colemak, and am thinking of remapping the vimkeys to keep them on home row 20:15:37 And is it possible to remap the viper keys? 20:16:04 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:16:06 Or it's just too much trouble to go through? 20:16:18 <_danb_> hm this seems to be cropping up a lot on #emacs lately 20:17:13 <_danb_> someone was playing with keyboard-translate, but I have no idea whether that is even remotely appropriate/correct 20:18:32 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007050.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:18:42 I guess if someone would rewrite vim in Lisp, it would be possible to create something SLIME-like for Lisp as well, right? 20:18:53 for Vim* 20:19:02 there are slime-like thingies for vim already 20:19:33 but they aren't as featureful as Slime 20:19:40 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.41] has joined #lisp 20:20:45 nakiya: youre idea of using lisp to generate C++ is perfectly valid. There are even libraries available to generate the C or C++ code from lisp forms, so you will actually have only to generate sexps forms. 20:20:57 So basically if I want to become a hardcore Lisp programmer, I should stick to Emacs... 20:21:17 lakatos: no, you can also use a lisp IDE such as Franz Allegro or LispWorks. 20:21:26 lakatos: that's the easiest way 20:21:49 lakatos: but in free software, emacs is probably the best for the time beeing and the foreseable future. 20:21:53 Are there any such IDE-s for Linux? 20:22:03 Slime is an IDE 20:22:14 lakatos: Franz Allegro or LispWorks run on Linux, MacOSX and MS-Windows, just like emacs. 20:22:36 Yeah, I wanted to learn Emacs or Vim so I can have a powerfull editor for all sorts of programming needs 20:22:45 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@acces1426.res.insa-lyon.fr] has left #lisp 20:22:46 emacs is better than vim. 20:22:59 (emacs can easily emulate vim, vim cannot easily emulate emacs). 20:23:08 pjb: Define better :P 20:23:15 (emacs can easily emulate vim, vim cannot easily emulate emacs). 20:23:45 It just emulates it 20:23:48 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.2.82.175] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:23:58 It isn't Vim from what I can see 20:24:17 Yeah, Emacs is a great editor, lot's of functionality and possibility 20:24:40 But I just like vim's simplicity and modal nature 20:25:14 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:25:15 lakatos: take a look at vimpulse, it's viper on steroids 20:25:52 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:26:28 <_danb_> viper is just vi 20:26:32 <_danb_> there's no * key for instance 20:26:41 <_danb_> but imo, you should learn emacs for advanced stuff anyway 20:27:18 yeah 20:27:33 and I guess I can stick to vim as well 20:27:50 <_danb_> now, you could lauch term in emacs and run vim inside it :) 20:28:42 Will I be able to compile code that I have written in vim? :) 20:28:51 lakatos: sticking to vim means you don't get slime :) 20:29:11 but yes. Lisp uses text for source code, after all. 20:29:24 oh, with vim, you don't get paredit, either. 20:29:34 which is really quite a lot to miss out on. 20:30:30 what is paredit by the way? 20:30:47 paredit is lisp programmer's paradise. 20:30:55 lakatos: paredit is a way to edit on the form level instead of the character level. 20:31:22 how does that work? 20:31:22 even more advanced than emacs's built-in form editing capabilities. 20:31:26 <_danb_> vi's core keys are great for slicing and dicing lines of text; paredit's main unit of currency is the sexp 20:31:39 paredit is nature's way of telling us not to forget about interlisp 20:32:22 <_danb_> that's why I get both at the same time with viper (almost); it's ungodly that I can even sort of do it 20:32:37 honestly, my favorite paredit feature is just being able to twiddle sexps 20:32:43 jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has joined #lisp 20:33:03 that feature alone has saved me a ridiculous amount of time 20:33:13 I'll try learning to use viper then :) 20:33:18 And learn to use paredit 20:33:27 sounds awesome :) 20:33:38 <_danb_> lakatos: you know, I'm not sure I should be recommending that combination 20:33:55 <_danb_> I find I just want to slip into emacsese when in paredit 20:34:04 dlowe: twiddle? 20:34:14 emacs + slime + viper + vimpulse + paredit? :)) 20:34:34 The bindings I use most often are M-r / M-up and M-) 20:35:04 tcr1: swap 20:35:13 uh as in transpose? 20:35:17 *stassats* has somewhere key-bindings hit frequency calculator 20:35:23 Ok, thanks guys 20:35:27 -!- lakatos [~istvan@83.166.210.157] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:35:39 *dlowe* likes twiddle better 20:36:22 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-83-68.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 20:36:31 lakatos: adding viper to that mix makes your life harder, and you'll have all the unvimlike nature of emacs too boot. Just forget for a moment the apparent simplicity and elegance of vim [which really is mostly apparent] and dive in! :-) 20:37:44 nikodemus: I don't get the interlisp reference! 20:37:49 i should make it group by package, and then i'll know which features of paredit i use most 20:39:07 minion: paste 94249? 20:39:07 Paste number 94249: "keys statistics" by stassats in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/94249 20:39:32 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-187-75.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:39:52 sykopomp: interlisp (a pre-common lisp dialect) had a structure editor. it was image based like smalltalk with source files written out after the fact when necessary 20:40:35 oh, interesting. 20:41:00 it also had DWIM, which could automatically correct code 20:41:09 nikodemus: was source code still displayed as sexp, or did they do little boxes or something? 20:41:12 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:41:43 as sexps 20:43:11 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-78-12-79-14.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 20:43:15 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:43:50 it's funny that all these cool features were done in 1960s or 70s and have been since forgotten 20:44:14 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756e37.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:25 even with today's more powerful machines 20:46:12 rpg_ [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 20:46:22 not forgotten: that's all available if you write Java code in eclipse 20:46:52 foom: Eclipse has a structure editor? 20:47:31 stassats: I've heard laments from lispers before about reading into old 1980s tech and being struck with how much more advanced Lisp looked back then. 20:47:43 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:45 sellout: I dunno, it has a debugger, I bet you can edit objects in it. 20:48:49 the old 1980s lisp paychecks sounded pretty good too 20:49:02 foom: That's not the same thing. 20:49:24 foom: A structure editor is a way of editing source code that prevents syntax errors. 20:49:40 oh. a structured code editor 20:50:19 no. not a structured code editor. a structure editor 20:50:26 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:50:41 code structure editor? 20:50:52 maybe! 20:51:03 An edit code structurer? 20:51:03 a code editor with structure. 20:51:36 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:51:37 well, then, yes. It's quite aware of the syntax of java (and multifile java projects) and has lots of editing and refactoring commands that make use of that knowledge. 20:51:50 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:52 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 20:52:03 it's about java, what's the use? 20:52:43 editing ABCL source code? 20:52:50 maybe if you want to write java code, you might find it useful 20:53:07 huh? someone said ABCL? 20:53:21 or if you want to see what modern development environments look like instead of complaining that there aren't any anymore 20:53:38 i want to develop modern environments 20:54:08 i would be surprised if eclipse had nothing worth stealing 20:54:08 also, check out that code bubbles video. that is an eclipse plugin. 20:54:22 eclipse is pretty fairly advanced & nice. 20:54:38 (the API was really horrible back in 2005/6 though. I won't go back there again) 20:54:45 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.14.81.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:54:54 eclipse or netbeans are as useful to me as Interlisp-D in that matter 20:55:11 we're not talking about netbeans (: 20:55:51 stassats: but Interlisp actually worked! 20:56:08 but that's another one for the python/makefile collection of aggravating groupings: netbeans/eclipse (-: 20:56:47 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-216-23.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:57:42 NetBeans has less plugins, but IMHO is more cohesive 20:57:56 antifuchs: they both aren't good at Lisp 20:58:00 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:58:21 antifuchs: Eclipse has some plugins that implement interesting functionality, but nothing else, IMHO 20:58:32 that's a fine opinion 20:59:19 antifuchs: my main issue with it is that it got modularity wrong :/ 20:59:25 as well as configurability 20:59:31 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.163.20] has joined #lisp 20:59:51 Code Bubbles is an interesting idea that I'm sort of planning to steal :) 21:00:59 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:01:24 (and one of the reasons I'm considering hiring a Flash specialist sometime later) 21:02:53 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 21:04:12 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-187-75.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:04:19 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:05:18 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:09:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-211.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:14:54 chemuduguntar [~ravic@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:29 -!- lirt [~lirt@94.50.16.248] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 21:22:56 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:01 lirt [~lirt@94.50.16.248] has joined #lisp 21:23:19 Good morning everyone! 21:23:53 *fe[nl]ix* goes to sleep 21:25:02 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:27:03 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 21:29:29 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 21:30:21 RaceCondition [~erik@dsl-hkibrasgw4-fe5ddc00-120.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:33:01 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:33:51 -!- jdz [~jdz@host47-89-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:36:10 Ragnaroek [5b0c29d8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.41.216] has joined #lisp 21:38:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.98.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:46 beach: good afternoon, beach. :) 21:47:18 sykopomp: What's up? 21:48:37 beach: not much. Hacking some lisp for fun and profit! (although most of it seems to be SQL right now) 21:49:03 beach, you're in the US? 21:49:25 deepfire: No, Vietnam. 21:49:35 I got an email from my nephew who is trying to push for Lisp at his new (small startup) company. One of the colleagues was worried about finding competent Lisp programmers, and then went on to recommend Scala instead. Go figure! 21:49:52 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-022-013.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:45 beach: It's a bit of a challenge, actually. There's plenty of us here, but it's harder to find Lispers who are (and #'competentp #'availablep #'local-or-relocatable-p) 21:51:00 francogrex [~user@109.130.164.239] has joined #lisp 21:51:21 It would be easier if they accepted telework. 21:51:47 After all, the Internet is 40 years old... 21:51:55 pjb: Yeah, but they won't use Lisp anyway, but it is unrelated to the reasons that the come up with. 21:52:12 -!- pnq [~nick@host-235.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:23 pnq [~nick@host-235.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 21:52:41 -!- hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:43 VanDamas [~VanDamas@ip-85-206-52-37.davgita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:53:01 sykopomp: I agree it is not easy, but Lisp can be learned as well. But this is probably a novel idea to many companies. 21:54:40 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:06 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-022-013.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:58 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-216-23.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:56:24 -!- VanDamas [~VanDamas@ip-85-206-52-37.davgita.lt] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 21:57:06 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:59:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-111-142.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:59:51 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.164.239] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:15 I'm writing a program whose most common mode of operation will be batch/command line, i.e. provide on the command line the name of the file to operate on, plus any options, the program runs, does its job, finishes... 22:02:29 But which might sometimes also be used interactively, from a repl... 22:02:59 The way I have currently in mind to do this is to check the list of commandline arguments, if a file name was provided then go ahead and do the job on that file, otherwise do nothing... 22:03:08 sykopomp: "difficult to find" is relative. Do you regularly get offers? 22:03:32 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.163.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:03:48 With the intent being the do nothing case would correspond to the user having typed (load "main.lisp") from the repl of his preferred Lisp implementation, which then leaves him with the program loaded into memory... 22:04:00 Is that the right way to do it, or is there another way I should be looking at? 22:04:02 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-87.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08:28 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 22:08:28 -!- Sprayzor` [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:04 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:14 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:11:18 rwallace: that would depend on the implementation I guess. Also, whether you deploy it as a script or as an executable image. 22:11:42 rwallace: as a script, I guess you will have to implement your own REPL, or call explicitely the implementation's toplevel REPL. 22:11:45 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:51 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:11:52 I'm planning to ship source code 22:12:12 -!- mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:12:24 rwallace: as an executable image, it all depends on the implementation, on how to hook on the main function of the program, and whether returning from it exits or continues with the toplevel. 22:12:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: zz] 22:12:50 mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:15 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:32 hmm. You seem to be saying the third option of telling the user to type (load "main.lisp") from the repl of his preferred Lisp implementation, won't work? 22:13:35 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:55 Yes, it would work too. But non lisper users may object to it. 22:14:29 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:14:38 pabst [~anonymous@208.74.177.139.static.etheric.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:45 oh! Well yes, but given that the repl would necessarily be in Lisp, non-lispers would have no earthly use for the interactive mode anyway, so they would presumably be sticking purely to the command line batch mode 22:14:49 Also you have the problem of passing command arguments then. 22:15:01 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 22:15:19 Well yes, but if you're passing commandline arguments, that means you've already told the program what to do, so it just needs to go ahead and do it, that means batch mode 22:15:47 Some implementation provide commandline options to drop to a shell from an executable image. eg. clisp. 22:16:05 s/shell/repl/ 22:16:51 Right, but not all, and presumably the method is different in each case... doing it the other way would remove one portability issue, leaving me only with the problem of how to get the command line arguments on all implementations 22:16:52 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3188.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:40 In any case, my point is that it's implementation dependent, so check the manual of your choosen implementation. 22:18:15 Right, one of my objectives is to support as many implementations as possible - including the commercial implementations to which I myself do not have access 22:18:31 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:46 Then read the manual of as many implementations as possible ;-) 22:18:50 -!- angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:19:16 Right :-) but I may also try to use techniques that require as little implementation specific knowledge as possible 22:19:43 Have a look at cl-launch. But I'm not sure they've designed a REPL fall back. 22:20:42 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:21:08 ah, interesting! I'll fiddle around with that and see if it helps, thanks! 22:21:19 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:19 And thanks for talking it over, I've a better idea of the shape of the problem now 22:21:22 Sprayzor` [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:14 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:17 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c145e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:23:15 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-249-102.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:23:32 pnq1 [~nick@host-157.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 22:24:43 -!- pnq [~nick@host-235.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:24:53 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 22:25:12 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:26:25 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 22:27:46 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-111-142.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:29:53 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:30:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:30:52 haha, a friend of mine just showed me how she does with-* blocks in c++ 22:31:14 oh? 22:31:34 make a class with a constructor and destructor, then instantiate that class into an unused variable in a scope. 22:31:39 -!- Ragnaroek [5b0c29d8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.12.41.216] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:31:52 { CSomeWeirdClass instance; /* do something totally unrelated */ ... } 22:32:02 and at the end of the scope, destructor gets called. 22:32:08 so awful, yet so right. 22:32:14 Oh, wow! 22:32:32 hah! 22:34:09 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-121-90.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 22:35:33 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:36:59 mon_key pasted "Slime's core functions/variables loosel structured by purpose" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119567 22:38:32 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 22:39:14 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:39:21 -!- lirt [~lirt@94.50.16.248] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:39:59 lirt [~lirt@94.50.16.248] has joined #lisp 22:41:07 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:41:07 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 22:41:54 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: splits] 22:42:13 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:59 jweiss__ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:39 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:45:11 francogrex [~user@109.130.164.239] has joined #lisp 22:47:33 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-98-207-157-93.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 22:49:47 mon_key: what's the purpose of this? 22:50:17 did you do that all by hand? 22:51:11 stassats: For my reference. Figured someone else might find it useful. 22:51:37 (she also assures me this destructor will be called when an exception propels execution outside the block. so it is pretty much an unwind-protect. neat.) 22:51:38 stassats: AFAIK there is no way to build such a list other than by hand :) 22:52:34 antifuchs: right, RAII and other goodness. gcc has an extension to do the same in C. 22:52:45 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 22:53:19 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:53:27 pkhuong: exactly 22:53:37 man, this is weird territory. 22:53:42 antifuchs: did she tell you that dragons will eat the process if the destructor throws an exception ? 22:53:49 I'm completely fascinated (: 22:54:06 fe[nl]ix: no, but she did tell me that in her current project, exceptions are Verboten (: 22:55:42 antifuchs: that's a bit how smart pointers work too, although they are usually templated classes that can be used almost the same way as the contained object 22:55:45 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:56 vser [~vser@78-22-154-231.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:56:02 -!- Sprayzor` [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:56:22 -!- vser is now known as Landr 22:56:27 pmd: smart pointers are just using the language's features like they were meant to be. 22:57:19 Using destructors for finally blocks is more akin to using templates for compile-time computation :\ 22:57:21 pkhuong: well... but they're never perfect. for instance, in COM, they can't really hide AddRef and Release, which in a smart pointer should neven be called manually 22:58:00 skalawag` [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:52 What's the difference between alexandria:mappend and mapcan? 23:00:57 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 23:01:24 drdo: append vs nconc, non-destructive vs destructive 23:02:54 drdo: however, note that the last argument to append is used as-is 23:03:03 non-destructive means constructive? 23:03:11 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 23:03:28 stassats: er that, yeah 23:03:38 stassats: Depends on what you construct 23:03:46 Sometimes constructions can be destructive 23:03:51 -!- __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:50 antifuchs: and guess why they're Verboten :D 23:07:16 fe[nl]ix: because that's part of the arbitrary restrictions you have to put in place in order to make C++ bearable? (; 23:07:26 (rather, collaborative c++) (: 23:07:44 (mappend 'identity (list (list 1 2) (list 3 4) (list 5 6))) will create the list (1 2 3 4 5 6) where (5 6) is the same list (i.e. is eq) as the last, right? so you can't assume that the result is totally fresh 23:08:27 so it's not constructive (as in copying), it's non-destructive (as in doesn't alter the original data) 23:08:41 pmd: I understood it the first time :P 23:08:48 append vs nconc 23:09:38 -!- csamuelson [~csamuelso@173-14-110-121-nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:17 antifuchs: for example, because the use of exceptions combined with certain C++ idiosyncrasies makes constructors and destructors very hard to write 23:10:40 drdo: right. i was just alerting for altering the result of mappend, it's not safe 23:11:08 of course not 23:11:27 append doesn't guarantee it will make a whole new fresh list, it just guarantees it won't destroy yours 23:11:33 the last part can be shared 23:11:51 drdo: it does if its last argument is nil 23:11:52 yeah 23:12:16 it guaranties what it does 23:12:27 that i guarantee you 23:13:17 If you want copying, use (concatenate 'list ...) 23:13:42 I don't want anything actually, i was skimming through alexandria's manual :P 23:13:51 oh the manual is outdated 23:13:58 (I think) 23:14:53 antifuchs: I've used that extensively with macros to write Tracker.NewFS for BeOS. and at that time I didn't know lisp yet... :) 23:15:09 heh 23:15:28 I guess the concept translates pretty well (: 23:15:47 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.164.239] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:20 realitygrill [~realitygr@67-194-83-68.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 23:16:20 it wasn't accepted to the official Tracker repo, but everyone used my version because of the features (for a year or two before BeOS died completely... :) 23:16:50 -!- lirt [~lirt@94.50.16.248] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:17:32 lirt [~lirt@94.50.16.248] has joined #lisp 23:17:45 they said that it's weird to use exceptions to for control flow... but I was just unwinding the stack! them silly C++ coders... :) 23:18:51 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:10 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 23:22:41 Blkt [~Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-34-26-111.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 23:25:04 csamuelson [~csamuelso@adsl-240-246-114.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:50 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:22 attila_lendvai: I wonder if those were C++ machines like Symbolics had Lisp Machines. 23:39:28 Xach: from a bird's view BeOS was just another linux or windoze, only written mostly in C++ instead of C... it had a microkernel, was much better written, but in the end it had the same issues as the others of its league... 23:39:49 -!- lirt [~lirt@94.50.16.248] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:40:08 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-150.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:40:54 lirt [~lirt@94.50.16.248] has joined #lisp 23:42:41 -!- mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:42:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-191-211.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:42:49 mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:38 BeOS was a nice OS, though the use of C++ in APIs is one of the things making me not touch Haiku too much 23:46:55 whee [~whee@cpe-69-207-157-162.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:54 it was way ahead of the competition in many aspects, especially if the resources behind it are considered. but it wasn't conceptually better, so it didn't have a chance against the social/political power of the other two... 23:48:59 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 23:50:09 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 23:50:34 I was a BEOS developer and still have a BeBox (in a box of course). It's a very very tough market to enter. No one has had any success at it (commercially) in what 30 years? 23:50:45 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-15-149.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:51:00 The market being a commercial consumer OS I mean 23:52:08 kencausey: is there any nostalgia/collector market for the hardware? 23:52:23 Not that I'm aware of, but I haven't really looked. 23:52:29 (morbid curiosity market?) 23:52:42 I suspect we are still some years off from that. 23:52:56 Depends on the success of Haiku I suppose 23:53:37 I hope they succeed. 23:53:40 I have a bad habit of wasting time on OS fascination and fight it hard these days 23:53:58 They're doing a very hard job turning Haiku usable. 23:54:04 s/doing/having 23:54:35 Sure, it's a constant battle and I certainly wish them well at it. 23:54:50 But it is a bit 1990s at this point ;) 23:55:12 kencausey: that's the charm of it ;) 23:55:41 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-128-113.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:56:32 tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has joined #lisp 23:56:35 kencausey: I understand the appeal of Lisp machine nostalgia a bit, but personally would never want to find space in my house for the hardware. I wonder about the BeBox a bit because it was in the nerd news during formative years. 23:57:15 it looks like BeOS was a success wrt to the Roland Corps dedicated sound frobbing hardware thingies 23:57:15 Wouldn't bother much with any kind of modern Lisp OS idea, either. 23:58:15 Xach: Why oh why 23:59:03 it's nice theoretically, but wouldn't be very practical. 23:59:03 Lisp OS is just defun away 23:59:23 drdo: Just not an area of interest to me. There's a lot of software I'd like to write that doesn't require any special OS or hardware support. I have a hard time imagining how much nicer life would be with it. Maybe that's a lack of creativity on my part, but I don't care much.