00:02:49 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:09:22 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:46 -!- bigjust` is now known as bigjust 00:10:15 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@2002:4426:8e22:0:5ab0:35ff:fe69:c9bf] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:11:52 -!- williambr [~william@host81-151-35-228.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:12:59 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:57 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.100.20] has quit [Quit: adu] 00:14:57 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:15:16 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:20:04 -!- astoon_ [~astoon@109.188.225.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:20:59 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.225.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:21:09 -!- StephenFalken [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Quit: Time left until the Epochalypse: 26yrs 49wks 4days 14hrs 52mins 40secs] 00:23:37 paxcoder [~steampunk@unaffiliated/paxcoder] has joined #lisp 00:24:06 slyrus: I just looked at your example from the README of opticl (turning the truck blue). 00:24:26 ?join #lispgames 00:24:43 woops 00:28:02 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:28:30 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-147-190.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:28:32 mk2 pasted "color handling in opticl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119403 00:29:17 slyrus: I wonder if it would be possible to get rid of the multiple-value-bind boiler-plate. 00:30:40 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:30:44 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:25 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:37:08 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d003542.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:10 In the paste I define invert-red that takes 3 parameters and call it with multiple-value-call. It would be nice to put this into macros so that you can write: 00:37:12 (flet ((invert-red (r g b) (values (- 255 r) g b))) 00:37:12 (do-region ((j i) (height width)) 00:37:12 (setf (img j i) (invert-red (img j i))))) 00:37:15 00:38:26 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:41:11 timor [~timor@port-92-195-176-10.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:41:48 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:49 -!- oconnore [~eric@adsl-80-218-110.mcn.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:44:33 mk2: nikodemus had some SBCL-specific trick to have transparent untupling instead. 00:45:04 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:45:15 astoon_ [~astoon@109.188.227.74] has joined #lisp 00:45:18 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:45:37 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:24 -!- astoon_ [~astoon@109.188.227.74] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:47:45 pkhuong: Cook, where? 00:47:51 Cool 00:48:08 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:11 <_death> perhaps start by writing a (transform-pixels function image &key x y width height) function, or something 00:48:19 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-103-145.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:48:53 -!- _death is now known as adeht 00:51:04 _death: I might want to access two different images or neighbouring pixels from the function, if it's not as easy as INVERT-RED. 00:52:36 weirdo [~sthalik@2001:5c0:1400:b::80b3] has joined #lisp 00:52:37 I was thinking of sb-cga, which only optimizes away vector allocation, but a similar approach should be usable for untupling. 00:52:57 it's far from perfect, but a useful 80% solution, surely. 00:53:40 pkhuong: Hmm..., I've looked at this before. However it was too complicated for me. 00:55:26 -!- Marcux [~Adium@189.121.111.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:55:26 -!- MetalDust2 [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:27 MetalDust2 [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:37 -!- MetalDust2 [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:56:44 adeht is right though, you can probably get away with writing a specialised mapping function, even across multiple images. For neighbouring pixels, I'm sure you can find some inspiration in some DSL or library for stencil codes. 00:58:44 silenius [~silenus@p54946621.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:50 pkhuong: Could you suggest such a DSL or library. 00:59:10 Hum. If I set a place X to value Y and then immediately read place X again to get value Z, it's not necessarily the case that (eq Y Z), right?... The reader or writer for the place might do some "normalization" of the value?... 01:00:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@245.Red-79-157-129.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:00:25 Marcux [~Adium@189.121.111.41] has joined #lisp 01:00:26 Hexstream: technically, yes. in practice, I don't think anyone usually ever does that. 01:00:46 (er, "usually ever"?) 01:00:50 kpreid: numbers. 01:00:55 Hexstream: (i) right when it comes to characters/numbers (ii) even with eql instead, it's right (symbol macros) but not certainly not conventional 01:00:55 mk2 annotated #119403 "improved (?) image access method" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119403#1 01:01:02 well, yes, but that's sort of a different case 01:01:16 mk2: google scholar shows a lot of papers on the topic. It's an important operation in HPC. 01:01:50 it would seem entirely reasonable for a place whose value is, say, always a string, for a specific purpose, to intern (in the generic sense) the string, though. 01:02:48 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 01:03:42 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:03:48 mk2: a priori, it seems that the computation is split into two (and a half) pieces: the (constant) set of neighbours that will be accessed and the computation to perform (the remaining half specifies how elements close to the boundaries of the array should be handled). 01:03:52 Yeah, so that's mostly the answer I was expecting, thanks. I need to update a place to a new value temporarily and then set it back to what it was and I was pondering if it was a safe optimization to cache the value I'm writing to it but I'll just do the normal read again. 01:04:38 astoon_ [~astoon@109.188.227.74] has joined #lisp 01:05:26 pkhuong: Sounds very interesting. I'll have to look into that. 01:06:10 mk2: you'd probably end up compiling a specialised function for each set of neighbours (stencil). 01:07:45 Oh gosh, I got it all backwards. I really must cache the value I'm writing so that the value I set back is the one that was there before... but then if there's transparent normalization it will happen anyway, just later... Anyway I'll just assume that a place that transforms the value to something semantically different is broken. 01:10:20 If some place somewhere keeps some state about what reads and writes have been done to the place, fun will ensue. 01:11:35 threads and interrupts make this harder. 01:11:59 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 01:13:31 minion's out again. 01:15:14 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:25 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:15:55 leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:14 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-171-12.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:16:24 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:20:55 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:21:20 <|nix|> does cl have a #"pattern" like clojure 01:22:13 no, but you can write one or use cl-interpol 01:23:32 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:24:38 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 01:26:33 pkhuong: In the abstract of http://people.csail.mit.edu/cychan/papers/ipdps10.pdf "An Auto-Tuning Framework for Parallel Multicore Stencil Computations" they write: "the large variety of stencil kernels used in practice makes this computation pattern difficult to assemble into a library". I hope this is only true for Fortran. 01:28:45 <|nix|> adeht: thank you... 01:29:54 mk2: they may be referring to libraries that support only a fixed set of stencils. 01:30:05 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:45 -!- Marcux [~Adium@189.121.111.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:40:55 <|nix|> mk2: pkhuong : dows opencl fit into what you are talking about 01:45:03 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:31 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:45:52 <|nix|> if so then |3b| has a cl-opencl-3b library in github that may interest you 01:47:13 <|nix|> ofcourse its it doesnt have kernels in it but you could collect numerous ones available and build a high level tool 01:49:16 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:49:27 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:53 |nix|: I think that is too low-level. You define kernel functions in something that looks like C. Angavrilov's cl-gpu seems to be nicer. 01:52:39 -!- hramrach__ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:55:53 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:26 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:05:55 -!- paxcoder [~steampunk@unaffiliated/paxcoder] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:06:31 hramrach__ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 02:08:02 hmm, sbcl running under slime is causing 15 wakeups per second, how do I find out which thread is causing it? 02:10:58 |nix|` [~user@cpe-72-226-54-44.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:11 -!- Grazl [~Grazl@196.Red-79-150-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Grazl] 02:12:26 -!- |nix| [~user@cpe-72-226-54-44.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:15:15 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:32 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 02:15:46 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-213-78.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 02:15:56 ilmari: If you can track wakeups to the point of the actual thread ID, then that should be easy to figure. 02:16:14 Otherwise, I don't rightly know. 02:16:19 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:09 ilmari: if it's linux, and a pretty recent version, you may be able to use powertop for that 02:18:24 fe[nl]ix: I'm not getting it to show thread IDs, only process names 02:19:56 three of the threads are looping on nanosleep or FUTEX_WAIT_PRIVATE with 0.2s timeouts 02:21:10 the two others are blocking on selects without timeout 02:21:28 nyef: so, now that I have the trhead IDs, how do I map them to sbcl thread names? 02:23:08 Hang on, FUTEX_WAIT_PRIVATE? 02:23:12 M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.215.78] has joined #lisp 02:23:47 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Implementation-_0028Linux-x86_002fx86_002d64_0029 says it uses futexes, so that's not surprising in and of itself 02:25:52 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.215.78] has quit [Client Quit] 02:26:04 M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.215.78] has joined #lisp 02:26:37 Hrm. 02:26:56 Okay, FUTEX-WAIT is only called from Lisp in two places. 02:27:17 ... that's not where I should be trying to go. 02:28:36 Oh, right. I remember now. The "easy" way to do this is to attach with gdb. 02:29:21 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-176-10.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:30:18 ... but that only goes from thread objects to pthread_t values. 02:30:28 What's a pthread_t on linux again? 02:31:30 nyef: sb-thread:thread has an os-thread slot 02:31:53 could it be the TID ? 02:31:53 Yes, and that's the struct thread in src/runtime/genesis/thread.h 02:32:01 So, no, not the TID. 02:32:18 ... At least, that's my understanding of the situation. 02:35:28 Okay, you should be able to map from one to the other by way of using interrupt-thread to call gettid() and stash the return value somewhere... But this is dangerous, and I'm not up to working out how to do the actual damage. 02:35:33 typedef unsigned long int pthread_t; 02:36:06 And I vaguely remember there being some tool for finding a mapping involving tids somewhere. 02:36:17 Right, pstree! 02:37:04 Hrm. Maybe not. 02:37:05 I have the tids (/proc/$(pgrep sbcl)/task/*) 02:37:14 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A50A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:37:24 Right, the problem is that they aren't the same as pthread_ts. 02:37:48 Which means that they in no way map to the os-thread in SBCL. 02:43:38 sedeki [~sedeki@c80-216-168-90.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:45:48 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66.243.225.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:46:41 -!- sm` [s@77.29.102.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:51:07 leo2007 [~leo@222.79.156.81] has joined #lisp 02:52:14 sm` [s@46.217.47.219] has joined #lisp 02:58:56 _danb_ [~user@124-171-12-242.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:03:21 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:03:33 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:05:05 hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.188.14] has joined #lisp 03:06:00 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-76-174.xnet.hr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:08:13 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:08:14 okay, now I have a gettid that does syscall(SYS_gettid) using cffi 03:10:12 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-76-174.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 03:10:20 (mapcar #'(lambda (thread) (sb-thread:interrupt-thread thread #'(lambda () (push (list sb-thread:*current-thread* (gettid)) *tids*)))) (sb-thread:list-all-threads)) 03:11:05 leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:19 I guess dolist would have been cleaner 03:11:30 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:13:14 ilmari: that's not thread safe. Also, allocating inside an interrupt-thread thunk probably isn't the best idea. 03:14:04 -!- mk2 [~user@159.92.65.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:15:00 pkhuong: I know, but it's not like there's anything other than slime running in this process 03:16:24 auto-flush-thread is doing the nanosleeping, repl-thread and control-thread are doing FUTEX_WAIT_PRIVATE 03:16:56 ilmari: eh? interrupt-thread doesn't wait for the thunk to be executed before returning. 03:17:27 You may well end up with missing values. 03:17:39 I have one value for each thread 03:18:47 (eq (length (sb-thread:list-all-threads)) (length *tids*)) ==> T 03:19:02 you were lucky. 03:19:31 I'm just doing this in the REPL, I'm not relying on it for anything other than my curiosity about which threads are causing the wakeups I was seeing in powertop 03:20:49 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23:45 also, an excuse to play a bit with cffi 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[~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:10 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 05:25:36 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.215.78] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 05:25:37 adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:20 M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.215.78] has joined #lisp 05:30:42 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 05:37:38 -!- Atomsk is now known as ace4016 05:38:49 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.66.25.90] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:52:37 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:22 evening 05:54:36 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:55:10 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:56:19 Hello slyrus 05:57:10 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:01:03 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-7.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:01:52 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-238.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:02:07 grumpy [~user@71-214-58-123.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:06 *grumpy* cartwheels 06:03:38 *grumpy* looks around suspiciously 06:04:02 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:04:10 so many people on this channel!! 06:04:23 as usual, yes. 06:05:30 grumpy: Are you new here? 06:05:33 Hello beach. I wish you well with all your endeavors. 06:06:21 grumpy: Thanks! 06:07:23 You are welcome, sir. 06:08:15 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66.243.225.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:09:39 *grumpy* checks out this LISP thing 06:10:33 grumpy: Some 20 years ago, we still wrote the name of the language "LISP". Nowadays, we prefer "Lisp". 06:10:45 WOW, my first troll. 06:11:09 Wut. 06:11:47 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66.243.225.8] has joined #lisp 06:12:17 How long would it take someone with reasonable intelligence to become proficient in Lisp? 06:13:22 A few weeks, like most languages. For certain values of proficient. 06:13:33 grumpy: Hard to say. Depends on your ambition. A few days for the basics, a few months to start writing so-so idiomatic uncomplicated code, a few years to become good, a few decades to become an expert. 06:15:29 Please let me rephrase. How long would it take someone to be able to write maintainable Lisp code? Or what are the keys to maintainable Lisp? 06:15:53 Learn good habits, don't learn bad ones. 06:15:58 All your code will be maintainable 06:16:07 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@60.183.215.78] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 06:16:27 Common Lisp is the way to go? 06:17:24 grumpy: You will be able to write maintainable code very fast. Just not very complicated one, i.e., code that uses some of the less-frequently-used features of Lisp. 06:17:32 NihilistDandy: How does one "Learn good habits"? Luck of working with better people, or reading stellar code, or actually writing bad code and graduating the school of hard knocks? 06:18:13 grumpy: Picking up a book usually helps. Most Lisp books I've seen are written by decent authors. 06:18:16 grumpy: All of the above. 06:18:50 beach: What about these macro things, do they make the code more unmaintainable by distancing the code from the result? 06:19:47 grumpy: They make the code more maintainable by making it easier to avoid boilerplate code and express code in terms of application logic instead. 06:20:12 do you ever combine C++ and Lisp? 06:20:19 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:20:47 i mean is it even possible? there's only a Lisp interpretator right? 06:20:47 NihilistDandy: "All your code will be maintainable"... Really? I have to study code I wrote a year ago. The "Why" is always missing. The "what" is there, but not the "why". 06:21:10 sedeki: There are FFIs 06:21:14 sedeki: ??? 06:21:25 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:29 sedeki: i would thing the name mangling would be a PITA to FFI. 06:21:42 sedeki: s/think/thing/ 06:21:52 grumpy: You should learn to write clearer code, then :D 06:22:10 NihilistDandy: clear as a bell when I write it. ;) 06:22:20 Ain't that always the way? :D 06:22:24 sedeki: In English the thing is called "interpreter". But most Lisp systems these days compile to native code. 06:23:10 sedeki: But that actually has nothing to do with the difficulty of combining Lisp and C++. 06:23:57 http://nosql.mypopescu.com/post/1016320617/mongodb-is-web-scale 06:24:04 I died laughing 06:24:26 NihilistDandy: no flash for me. 06:24:46 grumpy: Me, neither. Using HTML5 06:26:12 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:26:22 If I use SLIME and develope code using all it's tricks, will it make it harder for other people not using SLIME to understand said code? 06:27:16 SLIME is just an interaction mode 06:27:25 It shouldn't have any effect on your code 06:28:58 NihilistDandy: Really? Anything that makes it easy to do something changes the game. SLIME could make it much easier to write macros so then I write more macros. Others come aboard, sans-SLIME, and have to start to understand all the levels. 06:29:36 grumpy: exercise good taste. 06:29:55 Or the simplest, M-. allows for easy discovery of anything and means that I have no need to organize the code, to anothers chagrin. 06:30:46 sedeki: what do you mean by "combining" c++ and lisp? calling c++ libraries from lisp? 06:31:22 pkhuong: ahhh. If I develop with the use of a microscope, and the next person does not use a microscope. Who is to blame for the mess in understanding? 06:31:27 derrida: yes 06:31:48 what is the formal word? 06:31:56 grumpy: You have a very strange idea about programming. Lisp programmers believe that it is good to master the language, and then to use a good tool to make it easier to write and maintain code in it. 06:31:57 grumpy: if we make up problems, do they exist? 06:32:06 It's called a foreign function interface, sedeki 06:32:45 grumpy: It is strange to believe that you must use inferior tools so as to avoid that bad programmers write unmaintainable code. 06:33:13 grumpy: Also, use Quicklisp 06:33:59 I also don't think M-. is a substitute for organization :s 06:34:15 derrida: true problem. My teammates do not use SLIME. To me, using SLIME, all is easily understandable and explorable. But to them, pain. 06:34:33 grumpy: Why aren't they using SLIME? 06:34:42 NihilistDandy: vim 06:34:44 grumpy: why are you blaming slime though :P 06:34:48 Also, that 06:35:52 And if it's so painful, why don't they just use SLIME and save themselves this hassle? It takes nearly no time at all to set it up 06:35:56 No blame. Just exploring the idea that the tools shape the code - provide the color of glasses say - and that not viewing the code in the same color is more difficult. 06:36:26 grumpy: You are just confused about the entire way that programming ought to be done. 06:36:55 beach: please enlighten me if possible. 06:37:23 grumpy: Perhaps programmers of other languages believe that unqualified people who don't want to use the right tools also ought to write code. I don't believe that. 06:37:31 NihilistDandy: have you ever tried convincing a VIM user to switch to emacs? 06:37:52 grumpy: But you are getting very close to troll behavior at this point. 06:38:34 grumpy: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531 06:38:57 grumpy: you might be better served by showing us an example of what you're talking about 06:40:18 splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:40:24 morning 06:40:26 hello splittist 06:41:05 Hi, splittist 06:41:22 I've written a recursive function that blew the stack (typo on my part, kept calling the function with the same list instead of its cdr) 06:41:40 sbcl says Control stack guard page temporarily disabled: proceed with caution 06:42:13 but it won't accept new definitions now - do I have to restart sbcl? 06:42:31 beach: yea, trolling. And playing with the idea that SLIME is shaping my code in ways that make it less understandable to others not using SLIME. 06:43:15 grumpy: Yes, SLIME is bad, because it can make your code difficult to understand by others. Don't use it, it is dangerous. Happy? 06:44:17 derrida: I'm not blaming SLIME. Just my own personal use of SLIME. Wondering if anyone has had the same experience and if so, the fallout. 06:44:54 grumpy: Explain how it makes it less understandable. 06:45:14 spacebat: Will something terrible happen if you restart SBCL? 06:46:08 no, but I'm wondering what else can be done in case this happened one day in a production context 06:47:36 NihilistDandy: By easily enabling macros apon macros. Imagine if you didn't have the power of emacs enable macro expansion exploration but had to rely on MACROEXPAND-1 at the repl and you were faced with an onion of macros? 06:47:37 -!- morlos [~morlos@cpe-76-171-76-155.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:47:56 morlos [~morlos@cpe-76-171-76-155.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:48:20 grumpy: the tools don't make you a good coder 06:48:28 now learn to write usable code 06:48:35 and stop blaming the machine 06:49:41 billitch: My point is that in the context of SLIME, the code is easily and quickly understandable, but without the use of that microscope the ammount of work needed to understand is much more. 06:50:00 Then you're writing the code wrong. 06:50:06 grumpy: thats sounds like bad programming? 06:50:41 It sounds like you're blaming a tool for making hard things too easy 06:51:03 It's like saying that circular saws are bad because then you get used to making cuts that would take forever by hand 06:51:53 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 06:51:56 good morning 06:52:05 hello kami 06:53:01 jesusabdullah: Exactly! I'm hitting the problem that things that are easy for me due to my learning of the tools are hard for the rest. I'm faced with scaling back my use of the tools and dumbing back my code, or ...? 06:53:03 grumpy: i'm wondering what you are doing with slime that is changing how your code looks? 06:53:06 Well 06:53:23 I think it's actually less like that and more that you're blaming the glue gun for all this crap you just laminated together 06:53:39 when, just because you have the glue and clamps to do so, doesn't mean it's a good idea 06:53:40 grumpy: your argument hinges on slime altering code somehow 06:54:50 And I'm not following your macros argument, either 06:55:48 Macros make code *more* readable, not less 06:56:04 *usually 06:57:49 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:58:46 grumpy: i don't get it, how would you dumb your code in a useful way ? 06:59:46 does that mean reducing vocabulary, semantics, formatting ? 07:00:53 also 07:01:13 aren't there equivalents of slime for vim ? 07:01:23 or a vim mode in emacs ? 07:01:42 billitch: I already linked to http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2531 07:03:56 billitch: viper-mode, i've heard mixed opinions 07:04:50 *grumpy* apologizes for bringing us into a vim discussion 07:04:58 *grumpy* bows out gracefully 07:05:00 -!- grumpy [~user@71-214-58-123.clsp.qwest.net] has left #lisp 07:05:38 (print "wtf?") 07:05:44 :/ 07:08:29 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:15:03 -!- spiaggia` [~user@113.161.72.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:15:51 slimv, right? 07:21:10 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.67.59.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:26:37 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:35:42 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B5A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:23 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.79.156.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:37:25 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BBC7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:40:53 telebyte [~unknown@254-250.60-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:41:01 -!- telebyte [~unknown@254-250.60-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 07:41:22 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 07:48:32 wow. I didn't know about branch-version.lisp-expr 07:48:41 ok, this might complicate things a bit. hm. 07:49:24 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:50:01 actually, no, not at all. 07:50:25 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:59:24 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 07:59:50 keyvan- [~keyvan@ip68-4-177-149.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:35 leo2007 [~leo@120.37.25.109] has joined #lisp 08:08:41 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 08:08:52 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 08:08:52 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:09:56 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:11:38 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:12:15 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:15:21 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:16:06 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:02 -!- pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:34:34 gko [~gko@111.70.9.139] has joined #lisp 08:34:39 mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:36:00 -!- gko [~gko@111.70.9.139] has quit [Client Quit] 08:43:43 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:43:45 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-121-90.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:43:53 -!- algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 08:46:14 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:48:47 arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:48:49 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Changing host] 08:48:49 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 08:49:37 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B327BE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:03 kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:14 -!- fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-36-151.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:52:33 fihi09 [~user@pool-96-224-36-151.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:41 -!- keyvan- [~keyvan@ip68-4-177-149.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:53:15 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B326E6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:56:00 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-67-199.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:16 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-13-74.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:58:45 loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has joined #lisp 08:59:12 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-54-175.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:59:46 go antifuchs! 09:02:57 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:49 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:07:50 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:11:22 pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has joined #lisp 09:18:34 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 09:21:41 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:26:07 Joreji [~thomas@79-126.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:28:51 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 09:29:13 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 09:30:01 slyrus: I think it's an overlook to restrict image arrays to 3 planes. A lot of images have more than 3 planes. If only one alpha channel. But eg. in medical or scientific fields, you can have captors with more and different planes than the classical red green blue. 09:31:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@120.37.25.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:38:16 mascotte [p.scott@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-18-225.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:40:58 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:47:03 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.212] has joined #lisp 09:51:40 rasterba_ [~rasterbar@99-113-184-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:47 beach pasted "for slyrus: avoiding rank check at runtime" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119412 09:52:34 k3karthic [~k3@220.225.222.227] has joined #lisp 09:52:59 slyrus: Use like this (with-image (image1 * * 1) (setf (pixel image1 y x) val)) (with-image (image2 * * 4) (setf (pixel image2 y x) (values r g b a))) 09:53:22 -!- k3karthic [~k3@220.225.222.227] has left #lisp 09:53:54 slyrus: Other advantages: no upper bound on the size of the third dimension, only creates as many symbols as are needed at compile time. 09:54:23 lanthan_afh [~ze@80.64.176.30] has joined #lisp 09:54:24 -!- rasterba_ [~rasterbar@99-113-184-115.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54:44 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 09:54:46 slyrus: Currently, it doesn't use the dimension info, but that can be done later, say in the form of declarations. 09:58:04 slyrus: Oh, and it needs better error checking/signaling, for instance if (setf pixel) is not inside an appropriate (with-image ...). Alternatively, if it isn't, use your approach and perhaps emit a note or a warning. 10:00:02 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:00:14 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:03:34 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:44 slash_ [~unknown@pD955AE85.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:26 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:21:57 kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:12 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.128.160] has joined #lisp 10:26:31 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-158-232.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 10:27:09 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-121-90.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 10:33:49 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:35:31 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:36:39 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.128.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 10:36:52 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:37:02 mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 10:37:10 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:38:00 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 10:40:25 -!- sedeki [~sedeki@c80-216-168-90.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:09 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:47 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:49:47 pveglia_ [~pveglia@vau75-11-88-172-186-238.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:05 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:50:17 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw137014.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:53:06 Marcux [~Adium@189.121.111.41] has joined #lisp 10:54:03 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:49 -!- pveglia_ [~pveglia@vau75-11-88-172-186-238.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:54:50 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:59:14 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:59:53 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-184-245.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:01:03 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.24.116] has joined #lisp 11:01:22 MoALTz [~no@92.23.16.75] has joined #lisp 11:09:22 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:10:02 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 11:10:25 Hello! I have a problem with loading xpath using: (ql:quickload "xpath"). Could you tell me why I get this compile error? 11:10:49 mrSpec pasted "xpath" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119414 11:12:13 -!- M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.24.116] has quit [Quit: I need to code or sleep now .] 11:15:16 the xpath package seems to try to do (proclaim '(function nil)) or equivalent, which isn't allowed 11:15:49 possibly its author just didn't test it on sbcl, which check for violations like that? 11:15:54 checks, even 11:17:06 hm he had to check this as "Plexippus XPath works only on SBCL. " 11:17:42 what else can I use to parse HTML webpage? 11:20:29 cl-html-parse obv. 11:21:29 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-6-64.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:22:43 ymv: thx :) 11:24:27 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-90-26.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:24:33 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:25:18 cxml 11:26:19 heh problem solved... 11:26:32 I have to change *print-case* to :upcase 11:29:19 -!- drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29:32 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:32:45 -!- slash_ [~unknown@pD955AE85.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:41:49 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:48:51 leo2007 [~leo@120.37.25.109] has joined #lisp 11:51:16 M-sprite [~M-sprite@122.237.44.145] has joined #lisp 11:51:53 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-23.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:57:44 -!- 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timeout: 255 seconds] 14:06:07 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-161-64-51.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:29 G'morning all. 14:11:24 carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.254] has joined #lisp 14:13:40 astoon [~astoon@94.25.195.179] has joined #lisp 14:17:06 hi nyef 14:17:44 <|nix|`> Gmorning. "Ahaaaa !! What a fine day for CLience" 14:20:49 |nix|`: :D 14:21:00 good afternoon all :D 14:21:29 *nyef* sighs. 14:21:33 No minion, no specbot. 14:21:54 anyone knows a video playing library for CL? I'm google'ing/duckduckgoing for it, but with no effect 14:22:20 TeMPOraL: use MPlayer 14:22:47 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:52 or, on windows, there's some lib that uses CFFI to connect to COM, use that to build a DirectX multimedia chain 14:22:56 p_l|backup: as a library, or an application? 14:23:09 TeMPOraL: application, controlled through MPlayer Slave Protocol :-) 14:23:17 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:24 just like all those GUI players that use it do it 14:23:39 p_l|backup: I need to mix video with SDL or OpenGL-rendered graphics 14:23:48 though MPlayer as a library would be a great thing, if not for GPL :/ 14:24:20 TeMPOraL: no way of overlaying another OpenGL window over it? 14:25:11 or actually, I'm researching if and how could it be done - it's a rarely used method, but I remember seeing some applications that mixed AVIs with 2D/3D gfx 14:25:21 p_l|backup: I don't know, I'm looking into that 14:26:36 TeMPOraL: you can use CFFI to link against ffmpeg's libavcodec, and implement some direct rendering scheme into a texture's memory space, then switch them around... tricky, doable, insane\ 14:26:45 it's more political than technical issue though; the animator guy I work with asked me if I could stream video files instead of hand-animating bunch of PNGs exported from AfterEffect 14:27:08 and I'm estimating wheter it would be easier to do this, or to persuade him that PNGs are fine 14:27:12 :D 14:27:13 TeMPOraL: well, ffmpeg will give you decoding capabilities 14:27:29 -!- astoon [~astoon@94.25.195.179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:27:39 you'll have to figure how to stream that into textures 14:28:45 <_3b> should sbcl optimize sort with predicate #'< for (unsigned-byte 32) arrays? 14:28:51 you'd need to do a flip of the textures ~25 times per second, I guess, but if you manage to make it render directly into memory buffers used by textures it should work 14:29:26 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:51 TeMPOraL: it's definitely doable, but will include direct manipulation of memory and carefull allocation 14:30:38 p_l|backup: if I can get the images into memory it's no problem then - I could either figure out how to stream video directly into textures, or just destructure them into separate images and do the thing I am doing now - ie. load all animation frames into texture memory and flip them by hand 14:30:57 the tricky thing is how to get images from video file 14:31:01 _3b: i'm not sure about it, but (lambda (x y) (declare ((unsigned-byte 32) x y)) (< x y)) should do 14:31:11 TeMPOraL: anyway, it's ffmpeg and CFFI for you, or using mplayer to dump images from video :) 14:31:30 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:31:36 p_l|backup: ok, thanks :) 14:32:17 -!- zmyrgel [~user@hoasb-ff0cdd00-22.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:32:55 <_3b> stassats: yeah, that seems faster, thanks 14:33:13 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 14:33:32 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-158-232.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:34:17 sbcl doesn't seem to optimize predicates for search, reduce, etc. 14:37:19 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-158-232.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:41:36 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:42:37 -!- benny [~benny@i577A80B7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:44:10 astoon [~astoon@94.25.195.179] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.128] has quit [Quit: Offline] 14:47:38 -!- sm` [s@46.217.47.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:49 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.68.100] has quit [Quit: adu] 14:52:33 sm` [s@46.217.32.136] has joined #lisp 14:52:53 Grazl [~Grazl@196.Red-79-150-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:25 -!- astoon [~astoon@94.25.195.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:53:32 <|nix|`> any recomendation for a unit test framework? 14:55:58 zmyrgel [~user@hoasb-ff0cdd00-22.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:55:59 |nix|`: fiveam, stefil and sb-rt are the common options, I think. 14:56:01 Odditus [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 14:56:06 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:56:07 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.128.160] has joined #lisp 14:56:08 -!- Odditus is now known as Oddity 14:57:25 <|nix|`> redline6561: any particular you prefer. 14:57:50 i prefer writing bug-free code 14:57:58 <|nix|`> :D 14:58:01 |nix|`: From looking I liked fiveam but I haven't yet used any extensively. :-/ 14:58:38 |nix|`: Many like stefil for it's SLIME integration. I get the impression that sb-rt is used because it's "good enough" and included with SBCL. 14:59:40 |nix|`: fiveam seems fun and easy. RT is classical and easy. I haven't used stefil but I also haven't heard anything bad about it. 14:59:47 I just lower my expectations of what my code can accomplish 14:59:52 thus, no unit tests needed 14:59:53 pkhuong_ [~pkhuong@modemcable238.100-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:00:08 <|nix|`> :D 15:00:17 adu [~ajr@64.134.68.100] has joined #lisp 15:00:42 _3b: I've been thinking about writing radix sorts for those cases. I 15:01:02 m not sure whether that'd make for a weirder performance envelope, though. 15:01:14 <|nix|`> thanks guys :D 15:01:27 loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has joined #lisp 15:02:14 -!- loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has quit [Client Quit] 15:02:47 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 15:04:40 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:04:59 -!- jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:05:41 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.68.100] has quit [Quit: adu] 15:07:15 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:11:40 |nix|`: have you tried property-based testing? quickcheck and such... 15:12:46 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-158-232.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:13:29 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:38 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-158-232.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:16:28 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-158-232.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:17:10 <|nix|`> TeMPOraL: no. But I'm open to suggestions. Any particular one stands out in your opition. 15:17:53 benny [~benny@i577A23B4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:18:41 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-4-47.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:18:51 hello 15:19:48 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-158-232.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:19:49 how do I convert a string in (VECTOR (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)) ? trying to coerce it says that #\a is not an unsigned byte 15:19:56 <|nix|`> What are the pros and cons of property-based testing. 15:20:07 |nix|`: I remember using clickcheck once, but there's cl-quickcheck that seems to be actively developed, and moreover, it is "quickloadable" 15:20:40 |nix|`: property-based is an idea that you specify what predicate should hold, and the library will generate tests for that 15:20:53 ie. f(x) should return number > 0 for all integers 15:21:02 where f(x) is your tested function 15:21:20 |nix|`: fiveam has some quickcheckish stuff. 15:21:40 Blkt` [~user@net-93-145-58-238.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 15:21:46 and the property-based tester will run randomized tests on that, trying to find counter-examples and narrow-down the input to smallest range that causes error (if applicable) 15:21:59 interesting idea, I recommend you to explore it further 15:22:07 I also stumbled upon it quite recently 15:22:17 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-151-249-223.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:22:30 and last week we had a QuickCheck course at my company, so I played around with it a little more in Erlang 15:23:29 -!- xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:23:45 <|nix|`> TeMPOraL: thank you. Its really interesting. I found a paper on that http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.37.2924 15:26:02 <|nix|`> splittist: Do you know if stefil also does quickcheckish stuff? 15:30:59 -!- huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:31:19 xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db94bb7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:56 -!- xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db94bb7.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #lisp 15:33:17 |nix|`: np, have fun :) 15:33:19 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 15:33:20 gotta go, bbl 15:35:52 |nix|`: sorry, I know little about stefil. 15:36:46 adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:07 <|nix|`> splittist: np. thank you for the info. Definetely helps... :) 15:43:41 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has joined #lisp 15:45:37 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:46:42 -!- JuniorRoy [~JuniorRoy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:50:51 morning 15:50:59 beach: that macroexpand isn't working for me 15:54:13 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 15:57:25 -!- mascotte [p.scott@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-18-225.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 16:01:37 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:03:22 -!- Grazl [~Grazl@196.Red-79-150-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Grazl] 16:03:27 hmm... package problems I think, got working now 16:03:38 let's discuss when you're around. thanks though! 16:04:01 is there anybody who knows ironclad ? 16:04:16 I'm having fewe questions 16:06:22 kiuma: froydnj might know something about it 16:08:12 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:08:38 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:37 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 16:09:48 I've enchrypted some text, I don't remember why some last bytes are not. 16:11:19 stassats, encrypt-in-place returns when to stop :) 16:11:55 encrypted text may be smaller 16:12:28 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-238.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:12:29 got it 16:12:47 or larger (i haven't encountered this yet) 16:13:16 then I don't know how encrypt-in-place could work 16:13:27 since it's destructive 16:14:02 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.204] has joined #lisp 16:15:19 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.212.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:16:00 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-238.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:16:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping 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has joined #lisp 17:39:40 So if I am writing a generic function and I want to have a slot dispatch on whether the argument is t or nil, what class should I use? 17:39:49 The CLHS says that t is of class t, apparently 17:39:57 And there isn't a boolean 17:40:14 Or is this idea radically unidiomatic? 17:40:36 To be clear, I don't want to dispatch to two different functions depend on nil or t 17:40:54 I just want to specify that the method expects a boolean 17:41:08 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 17:41:23 Because, for instance, another method wants to dispatch differently if the same arg is a function 17:41:53 ApeShot: every time I think I understand you, you add another comment, and I am confused again. 17:42:52 there's no class which contains only T and NIL 17:43:29 but what are you trying to accomplish? 17:44:09 xan_ [~xan@167.Red-79-158-92.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:31 Well, I have a method whose third argument sometimes is a function 17:44:39 And in another case, it just needs to indicate a boolean state 17:44:41 t or f 17:45:30 I guess the other two arguments are sufficient to prevent there being any confusion about the class of the third argument 17:46:27 I'm writing a generic method "in" which in one case takes an object, a list, and a predicate and returns whether the item is in the list based on the equality predicate passed in 17:46:33 In another case, both arguments are strings 17:46:54 And the third argument merely indicates whether the first should be considered a regular expression or not 17:47:09 Am I making any sense? 17:47:16 that doesn't sound good 17:47:28 ApeShot: false is NIL in lisp. 17:47:31 splittist: When will you drop by tomorrow? 17:47:34 not f 17:47:43 if it's an API, i'd find it confusing 17:47:48 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 17:48:16 prxq: Yes, I was speaking colloquially. I am familiar with lisp. 17:48:17 tcr1: I'm thinking 3pm ish. 17:48:18 having a keyword parameter for regexpness would be more clear 17:48:42 ApeShot: ah ok 17:48:47 splittist: you coming from geneva? 17:49:06 tcr1: yes. I thought I'd get a noon-ish train. 17:49:41 ApeShot: I concurr with stassats. That API sounds confusing 17:49:54 splittist: Splendid 17:49:55 Its hardly an API 17:50:05 Just the convention I use in the emacs function of the same name 17:50:18 Its only for personal use 17:50:23 But suppose I did use a keyword argument 17:50:31 What would I dispatch on? 17:50:47 splittist: Luis will be there as well :-) 17:50:57 Would one just have a defmethod only for the case when the arg is a function and handle the t/nil case separately? 17:50:59 you'd make a usual function which takes a keyword and then passes it to a generic function 17:51:11 Is there some kind of flag class? 17:51:20 tcr1: cool! 17:51:22 splittist: and Xof, and jsnell 17:51:58 I wonder who's gonna show up from the local zurich community :-) 17:51:58 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@192-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:52:02 no wonder nobody has time for SBCL, or Slime, they're all busy socializing 17:52:42 We had this joke the other day that I should change the "Lemendor fame is but a hack away" welcome message to "Teclo recruitment is but a hack away" :-) 17:52:56 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.80.223] has joined #lisp 17:53:44 a /really good/ hack... (: 17:55:24 more encouragement 17:55:55 *tcr1* thinks he better be especially nice to splittist for fear of being sued :-) 17:56:25 Xof told me a very nice english word the other day, estoppel 17:57:12 *splittist* shudders to think in what circumstances such a word would be mentioned. 17:57:15 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.103.61] has joined #lisp 17:57:20 stassats: do generics not support keywords? 17:57:22 Did he mention laches? 17:58:45 -!- ApeShot [~user@207.59.145.201] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:07 mcguitan83 [~pveglia@mar92-10-82-239-64-83.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:57 splittist: No. I'm looking forward for all the nice words I'm going to learn from you! Get prepared to be quizzed :-) 18:01:54 *stassats* subscribed to some rss feed with minionesque words from a dictionary each day 18:02:23 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:02:51 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:02:53 lefteris [~lefteris@adsl-255-195.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 18:03:55 nowhere_man [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-45-159.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:04:30 -!- kephas [pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-28-169.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:05:27 -!- lefteris [~lefteris@adsl-255-195.diodos.auth.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 18:07:30 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:09:31 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 18:10:42 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has quit [Quit: Offline] 18:11:06 lefteris [~lefteris@adsl-255-195.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 18:13:29 sbahra 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[~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:23:49 I have a piece of code I have to repeat several times (only one argument changes) across function. Is that a job for a macro or something else ? 19:24:33 prljavi_hari: it more likely calls for factoring that piece of code out with a (local) function. 19:24:34 it's a job for a function! 19:24:47 Blkt`` [~user@net-93-151-235-133.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 19:25:20 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.24.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:41 but it has to expand itself before compiulation 19:26:07 what has? 19:26:14 -!- Blkt` [~user@net-93-145-56-137.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:26:14 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:25 that piece of code 19:26:39 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-23.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:26:50 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:20 i don't understand you 19:27:56 sorry, I'm new to macros and all that 19:28:16 well, but you shouldn't use macros for this 19:28:54 ... unless you should use macros for this, in which case you might try MACROLET. 19:29:11 But this is probably more a case for FLET or LABELS. 19:29:13 You shouldn't use macros unless you should! 19:29:36 Well, there's very little detail here, so macros /might/ be in order. 19:29:42 Not quite likely, though. 19:29:47 *nyef* sighs. 19:29:53 So much for take three. 19:29:54 prljavi_hari: What exactly do you want to do? 19:30:00 I want that the piece of code is repeated a few times, as I wrote it myself 19:30:22 prljavi_hari: Do you mean a loop? 19:30:27 no 19:30:43 prljavi_hari: It might help if you paste it into lisppaste 19:30:47 minion: lisppaste 19:30:48 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:31:19 I repeatedly write the piece of code myself 19:31:34 I want to avoid that 19:32:04 prljavi_hari: paste 19:32:06 prljavi_hari: Paste it 19:32:25 it's just some expression 19:32:31 lurker-x [~androirc@c-75-72-99-111.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:46 prljavi_hari: We don't understand what you are trying to do 19:33:16 wait, I'll paste it 19:34:05 -!- Grazl [~Grazl@196.Red-79-150-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:36:10 prljavi_hari pasted "code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119422 19:37:02 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:03 and where is the repetition? 19:37:28 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 19:37:50 I want to repeat this piece http://paste.lisp.org/+2K5A with "ime" changing 19:38:07 well, use FLET 19:38:15 ok 19:38:30 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:58 pixel [~pixel@p4FC5210D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:42 will I be able to call it like: (repeat 'ime 'przime 'adresa ...) 19:41:08 *|3b|* suspects that would depend on how you define it 19:41:28 to repeat as many times as there are arguments 19:41:35 ok 19:41:38 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 19:41:49 I'll try flet 19:44:16 <|3b|> also depends on the context i guess 19:45:18 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:45:28 <|3b|> macros can only return 1 form, and functions can only return more than 1 form to things that accept multiple value returns 19:46:02 <|3b|> so you probably would need to be able to be able to combine the repetitions into 1 form, or modify the enclosing form a bit 19:46:29 mephisto_ [~mephisto@69-165-217-17.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:41 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:51 -!- hramrach__ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51:22 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:45 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:25 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:53:49 -!- dkasak 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joined #lisp 20:27:26 -!- splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Time to get some &rest] 20:27:28 clhs 22_ccc 20:27:28 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 22_ccc. 20:27:49 clhs 22.3.3.3 20:27:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccc.htm 20:28:06 beautiful and easy to understand prose :-) 20:29:00 sometimes i wish there was PROSEXPAND 20:30:23 I went there because I wondered if the extra spaces in (format nil "~G" 1/2) where ok or where a bug. 20:30:36 I think it isn't a bug, but can't tell for sure :-) 20:34:48 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:35:36 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:38:18 prxq: it's not a bug, it does ~4@T by default 20:38:29 the reason for this escapes me 20:40:49 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:41:24 stassats: there might be some F77-related reason. 20:42:59 -!- wubo [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:02 although sbcl seems still to get G wrong 20:43:13 I read that as FF7-related reason, and I thought the conversation had taken an odd turn :D 20:43:52 hcurry [632572b6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.37.114.182] has joined #lisp 20:43:58 *p_l|backup* otoh thought of G-format floating point... 20:44:09 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:44:11 wubo [~user@c-68-55-91-8.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:28 -!- hcurry [632572b6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.37.114.182] has left #lisp 20:44:54 *stassats* awards ~G "the most tricky format directive award" 20:49:06 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:41 clhs ~g 20:49:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccc.htm 20:51:00 the first part is almost poetry 20:51:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:57:48 mcguitan83 [~user@mar92-10-82-239-64-83.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:10 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 21:00:27 Marcux [~Adium@189.121.111.41] has joined #lisp 21:04:06 krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:04:08 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.103.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:07:20 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-117-158.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:22 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:19:31 panike [~nwp@ppp-70-226-173-118.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:35 -!- kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:26:14 -!- lundis [~lundis@dyn56-476.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Fear not, I will return] 21:27:29 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 21:28:50 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:29:30 In SBCL, (symbol-macrolet ((test 0) (test 1)) test) signals "STYLE-WARNING: duplicate definitions in ((TEST 0) (TEST 1))" and returns 0. This form shouldn't produce any warnings and return 1, right? 21:30:01 Style warnings are probably authorized. I'd expect 1 too. 21:30:39 -!- Guest86321 [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:32:14 Well, SYMBOL-MACROLET is fairly conceptually similar to LET* and it's completely ok to have multiple variables with the same name with LET* and you don't get warnings, so I'd think the same goes for SYMBOL-MACROLET... 21:32:20 -!- moah [~gnu@dslb-094-220-125-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 21:32:53 Hexstream: symbol-macrolet isn't like LET* at all, really 21:32:56 it's similar to LET as much 21:33:02 ccl and cmucl return 0 too. You should report it on cll, or is there a mail list to report conformity problems to all implementors at once? 21:33:19 nikodemus: in both cases it should return 1. 21:33:26 "should"? 21:33:32 Sure. 21:33:42 that doesn't convince me 21:33:49 clhs: symbol-macrolet 21:33:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_symbol.htm 21:33:59 (symbol-macrolet ((test 0) (test 1)) test) == (symbol-macrolet ((test 0)) (symbol-macrolet ((test 1)) test)) 21:34:30 based on what reasoning? 21:34:50 pjb: symbol-macrolet is not specified like that. it *could* be implemented like that, but it is certainly not required 21:34:55 Actually, if I read the second paragraph correctly, I think it means that symbol-macrolet could have either LET or LET* semantics. 21:35:13 But in any case, the last binding will be enacted in the body. 21:35:58 And since the second expression doesn't contain TEST, it doesn't matter. It should return 1. 21:36:08 in any case, one would anyone use this? 21:36:23 why 21:36:30 code generation, etc. 21:36:42 i would actually argue for an error instead of a style-warning 21:36:44 The style warning is ok. THe result is plain wrong. 21:36:57 nikodemus: i was thinking about a full WARNING 21:37:16 (let ((dum 1) (dum 2)) dum) is valid, no reason why the same with symbol-macrolet should not be valid also. 21:37:37 is it hard to generate proper code? 21:37:55 pjb: that is _not_ valid, actually 21:38:02 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:38:06 What is not valid? 21:38:26 (let ((x 0) (x 1)) x) 21:38:35 Quote clhs! 21:38:47 stassats: I actually found this "bug" by trying to use it in a real situation that calls for it... This is not another of my purely theoretical investigations ;P 21:38:50 LET* yes, LET no 21:39:10 quote clhs. 21:39:35 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:41:08 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-43-72.xnet.hr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:41:30 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 21:42:24 i'm going to bed, so i'm not going to dig into clhs for this now -- but #1 LET performs the bindings in parallel, and it is not specified with the precedence should be. and #2 consider (let ((v1 f1) (v2 f2) ... (vn fn)) ...body...) === ((lambda (v1 v2 ... vn) ...body...) f1 f2 ... fn) 21:42:56 (yes, i know clhs doesn't specify LET using LAMBDA -- consider it a parallel construction of the same problem) 21:43:03 ((lambda (x x x) x) 1 2 3) is valid too and should return 3. 21:44:03 pjb: Quote CLHS? 21:44:38 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.128.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:47:05 pjb: indeed, i'm pretty sure that isn't legal either. i don't have a clhs quote handy, but i cite no-one ever complaining about sbcl's behaviour in this regard as a point in favor of my theory until a clhs citation either way appears :) 21:47:11 anyways, off to bed now 21:47:36 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:47:37 kaek [~b@c-70cae253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:47:50 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-78-12-79-14.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:48:22 -!- mcguitan83 [~user@mar92-10-82-239-64-83.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:49:28 The only thing I can think of in favor of ((lambda (x x x) x) 1 2 3) => 3 is that forms in the lambda args can refer to the value of bindings previously established in the same lambda list, similarly to LET*, but that's a pretty weak argument in itself. 21:50:52 Hexstream: Think about currying. 21:52:27 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 21:52:56 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:57 hi, how can I group elements into sublists? For example I have a list like '(1 1 2 3 3 3) and I would like to group the same elements together like '((1 1) (2) (3 3 3)), is there something builtin for this? 21:55:03 For the record, my conclusions for SYMBOL-MACROLET is that the spec is unclear whether the style should be like LET or LET*, but SBCL's current behavior (style-warning + nonsense result) is obviously wrong so I'll file a bug. I think either LET* style should be adopted (more useful) or an error should be thrown (more conservative). 21:55:07 ignotus: no 21:55:28 Hexstream: why is it nonsense? 21:55:31 stassats: thx 21:56:19 Hexstream: it doesn't return -23, or something 21:56:24 Hexstream: agreed I can't find that the order of the binding for the mandatory be formally specified, only for optional parameters with initform. But I guess the rule of less surprize and consistency with the order of binding of the optional parameters and the order of evaluation of the arguments, and the general rule of evaluating things left-to-right, should lead us to expect ((lambda (x x x) x) 1 2 3) --> 3. 21:56:41 (symbol-macrolet ((test 0) (test 1)) test) => test is nonsense, there's no other word for it. 21:56:50 I mean, 0 21:56:54 => 0 21:57:31 maybe i'm using a different definition of "nonsense", but both "0" and "1" make perfect sense 21:57:37 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:58:27 You could even make an argument that 0.5d0 is a reasonable result. :-p 21:59:15 nyef: nah, 0.5d0 is nonsensical, 1/2, on the other hand, makes sense 21:59:17 Well, I'd expect (let ((test 0) (test 1)) test) to return 1 too, but some implementations disagree... (allegro and ecl return 0, CMU and SBCL signal an error). 21:59:55 Yeah, okay, something like that. 22:00:04 stassats: There's no historical precedent for that behavior and I'd seriously doubt anyone would see the form (symbol-macrolet ((test 0) (test1)) test) and immediately exclaim: "Ok, so this will obviously return 0!" 22:00:32 Yes. Nobody would expect that. 22:00:34 Hexstream: For that example, yes, it obviously returns 0. And test1 isn't referenced. 22:00:40 Hexstream: well, in reality, the only way which would make sense to me is to signal an error 22:01:01 adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:05 I mean, (symbol-macrolet ((test 0) (test 1)) test), damnit! 22:01:18 stassats: That would be acceptable behavior. 22:01:37 well, how about (let ((a 0) (a 1)) a)? 22:01:49 prxq: some implementation return 0 :-( 22:01:57 prxq: we've already discussed that 22:02:10 gives an error in sbcl 22:02:15 stassats: ah, sorry 22:02:16 jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:19 pjb: i'd expect it sometimes to return 0, and sometimes to return 1 22:02:21 nyef: While we're at it, (test1) is not even valid in that context, so it wouldn't return anything. 22:02:43 it's in parallel, hence the results may be nondetermenistic 22:03:29 I guess I can accept that. 22:03:33 Yes. 22:03:41 Perhaps we should have SYMBOL-MACROLET and SYMBOL-MACROLET* with the obvious semantics in the next standard ;P 22:04:02 symbol-macrolet* doesn't make sense 22:04:06 Okay, if the results "may" be nondeterministic, we should have the compiler/interpreter involve RANDOM at runtime... 22:04:15 stassats: Why the hell not? 22:04:18 So (loop repeat 4 collect (let ((a 0) (a 1)) a)) -> (1 0 1 0) ; for example -- is possible. 22:04:22 -!- mega1 [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:04:34 stassats: It does... if you involve one symbol in the expansion for the next. 22:04:39 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.119.162] has joined #lisp 22:04:44 nyef: or real parallelism on multicore. 22:04:54 Should be nice to see bindings established in parallel... 22:05:03 nyef: That was my initial "understanding" of SYMBOL-MACROLET, actually. 22:05:14 nyef: but it happens in the macroexpansion, after all expansions are established 22:05:38 obviously, the reasonable thing to do is to signal an error. No? 22:05:51 to me, it is 22:05:52 prxq: Looks more and more like it. 22:06:41 but errors don't teach anything, it's better to produce some fucked up interpretation of the standard 22:06:48 -!- pixel [~pixel@p4FC5210D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:07:23 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 22:07:38 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:13 stassats: Okay, so have it exec angband instead. :-p 22:08:31 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:36 Well, I guess that an implementation that wants to do bindings in parallel could have to signal an error if two variables with the same names are being bound at the same time. 22:08:42 or symbol macros. 22:09:00 "you're in a maze of bindings, all alike" 22:09:03 drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:09 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:09 and if it's a quantum computer, would TEST be in superposition of 0 and 1, and will choose one upon first usage? 22:10:21 Probably. 22:10:25 snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:11:07 Actually (defmacro quantum-let (&rest stuff) `(let ,@stuff)) ; beat that Haskells to perls! 22:11:44 pveglia [~user@mar92-10-82-239-64-83.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:28 another possibility would be to make (let ((a 0) (a 1)) (list a a)) => (0 1) 22:12:36 :-) 22:12:37 or (1 0), like stack 22:12:52 or 42, for kicks 22:12:59 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:13:29 prxq: 42 doesn't make much sense in this situation 22:13:49 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 22:14:00 only that it's binary representation is #b101010 22:14:37 which proves that I have a really subtle sense of humor ;) 22:15:04 hello. I would like to use the opengl-backend of CLIM. but it uses a package xlib-gl, which I cannot find. does anybody know where to find it? 22:15:44 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:49 i would guess that it works even worse than clx backend, so, unless you're willing to work on it, it'd be a bad idea to use it 22:17:23 What's the trivial library people use for timers? 22:17:40 trivial-timers? 22:17:44 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:18:25 -!- pveglia [~user@mar92-10-82-239-64-83.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:18:35 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:20:15 minion: trivial-timers? 22:20:16 trivial-timers: Trivial-timers is a minimally portable implementation of the SBCL timer extension using Bordeaux-Threads. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-timers 22:20:34 Yeah, i had found it, thanks 22:21:49 SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:27 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:24:47 stassats: what backend would you recommend then? 22:25:22 clx, although, i wouldn't recommend mcclim at all, sadly 22:25:45 unless you're willing to work on it, of course 22:26:21 stassats: why not? it seems to work. so far I used ltk, but somehow I dont like the idea of a forked process. 22:26:48 it works until it doesn't 22:27:02 ok 22:27:15 it's mostly good, but needs some polishing 22:27:41 Needs more than polishing, methinks. 22:28:00 what do you mean, nyef 22:30:08 CLIM2 itself would benefit from some polishing 22:30:38 i'm waiting for beach to finish CLIM3, in the meantime, i'm using commonqt 22:31:06 hm. well. then I'll just stay with ltk. 22:31:56 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:32:10 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.128.160] has joined #lisp 22:33:57 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:01 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl4-37-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:39:18 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@69-165-217-17.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:41 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.23.16.75] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:12 prank [~boh@ninja.hacked.jp] has joined #lisp 22:47:22 -!- prank [~boh@ninja.hacked.jp] has left #lisp 22:48:34 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010933.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:50:13 am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has joined #lisp 22:51:43 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:51:55 cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:12 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@182.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:53:12 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.79.159.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:01 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:00:31 vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.112.160.90] has joined #lisp 23:04:26 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:05:29 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:06:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: zz] 23:12:31 Good morning everyone! 23:16:54 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-78-12-79-14.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 23:17:39 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:19:30 -!- Soulman [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 23:19:40 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.128.160] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 23:21:01 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-218-84.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:21:44 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.253.154.71] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 23:22:11 Hello beach. 23:23:33 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:31 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A3E2B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:11 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-58-243.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 23:27:09 mcguitan83 [~paolo@negroni.enst.fr] has joined #lisp 23:28:26 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:29:23 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:29:46 -!- am0c [~am0c@124.49.51.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:33:10 azaq231 [~derivecto@p4FF6864B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:33:15 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 23:33:24 -!- azaq231 [~derivecto@p4FF6864B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 23:33:24 azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 23:33:49 hi, is it possible to LOOP throught the items of a list two at a time? 23:34:04 yes 23:34:09 stassats: how can I do that? 23:34:20 (loop for (a b) on list by #'cddr ..) 23:34:26 stassats: thanks 23:35:30 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-gqtsbfnnuhhuzqvv] has joined #lisp 23:36:02 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36:18 *Xach* wonders who can with authority move portableaserve to git of some sort 23:36:50 -!- krfs [~jonata@189-16-43-233.cte.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:37:08 chopwood [~chopwood@c-24-63-111-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:50 -!- keyvan1 is now known as keyvan 23:39:41 rolando [~user@107.255.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:40:04 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-gqtsbfnnuhhuzqvv] has quit [Client Quit] 23:43:34 Krystof [~csr21@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:43:50 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:43:58 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-90-26.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:49:48 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:30 guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-elyuskrbatqudywh] has joined #lisp 23:56:59 disumu [~disumu@pD4B9EBFB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:27 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:46 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-elyuskrbatqudywh] has quit [Client Quit]