00:00:02 that sounds like a pretty compelling idea, actually (: 00:00:17 a clojure <-> common lisp adapter. I like the idea (: 00:01:55 <|nix|> with a lanuage as flexible as cl. I'm sure we can find some workarounds for the roadblocks 00:03:04 <|nix|> slyrus: lets do it. GitHub? 00:06:31 zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.84.159] has joined #lisp 00:06:45 ... hmm... go to sleep or do a marathon run trying to implement acrazy idea of mine in language I barely know? 00:07:00 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:07:10 p_l|backup: depends on the language 00:07:33 felideon: JavaScript (the unknown one) generated by CL code 00:08:10 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:17 p 00:08:29 p_l|backup: hmm, still neutral 00:08:43 p_l|backup: in that case, depends on when you will recover said sleep 00:08:48 :) 00:09:08 felideon: completely no idea, the drugs I'm going to take are supposed to make me sleepy, but it has been hit & miss :D 00:09:47 hehe 00:09:52 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 00:10:49 (it's not the purpose of the drug but a side effect 00:13:47 does the drug make you see better? because that would defeat its purpose 00:14:47 felideon: no, but it's supposed to be taken in the evening before going to sleep :) 00:14:52 |nix|: I think some email strategy discussions might be a good place to start 00:15:10 So this is (I suspect) a stupid question but are there chips that have ops that do anything with memory (i.e. not registers) other than move the contents to and from registers? 00:15:13 p_l|backup: good. 00:15:16 :) 00:15:45 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: end of day] 00:15:52 Or maybe move data from one location in memory to another. 00:16:12 I.e. nobody has an op to add the contents of two addresses and put the result in a register, do they? 00:16:12 gigamonkey: sure. x86 does, for example. 00:16:13 <|nix|> slyrus: i started following you on github (if you have the same nick) 00:16:19 cool 00:16:30 <|nix|> lets take it from there 00:16:37 rme: such as? 00:16:55 gigamonkey: that's the typical "CISC" (hugely incorrect term) behaviour 00:17:26 the so called "RISC" cpus are properly called "load-store" 00:18:18 On x86, it's possible to do most arithmetic operations using a memory location as an operand. For example, you can add an immediate or a register to a memory location. 00:18:19 I see. 00:18:27 POWER and PA-RISC examples of huge load-store architectures, x86 is a slave to memory arguments 00:18:37 rme: afaik you can do memory-memory operations 00:19:25 I think the only place where you couldn't use memory arguments in classic x86 was to use them in place of index registers of some sorts... 00:19:38 -!- sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:19:54 *p_l|backup* did more 6502 than all his x86 assembly... 00:21:32 gigamonkey: what do you need that for, btw? 00:23:14 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:18 <|nix|> gigamonkey: gpgpu programming in opencl maybe? 00:23:25 gigamonkey: The VAX was a great example of what you are looking for, though it no longer exists, nor would I call it a "chip". 00:23:31 p_l|backup: I'm editing a piece about MIX and am trying to orient myself. 00:23:56 beach: well, instruction set then. 00:24:35 gigamonkey: MIX or MMIX? :) 00:25:14 p_l|backup: at the moment MIX 00:25:36 beach: heh, I happen to have on my shelf, "Computer Programming and Architecture: The VAX-11" 00:25:59 well, MIX was from the time when there weren't many registers nor were CPUs faster than local memory (though main memory was dog slow) 00:28:08 So MIX was kind of RISC before there was CISC to inspire RISC? (Except without lots of registers.) 00:29:34 6502 crossed the boundary a bit with the zero page. 00:30:07 I was a teaching assistant for a course that taught VAX assembly. When I first learned the VAX instruction set, I remember thinking something like "Multiply? It has a multiply instruction?" It was a big jump from a 6502. 00:30:51 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.194.27] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:31:06 I'm still occasionally disturbed by the notion of the absence of a FPU. 00:31:24 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:31:30 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:58 oh right, and was it PDP that had a polynomial evaluation instruction? 00:33:22 polyf. I forgot about that. and there was a crc instruction, too. 00:35:15 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:35:47 Man, what were they thinking? 00:35:49 RaceCondition_ [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 00:35:54 It was interesting when I talked with Knuth to hear that he's advocating for chip makers to include a bitcount instruction. 00:37:24 SSE4 has a CRC32 instruction (WHY DID THEY FIX THE POLYNOMIAL?), but at least we have pclmul* now (: 00:37:44 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:13 gigamonkey: it's pretty useful, but why popcount in particular? 00:39:10 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:40:08 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:40:08 -!- RaceCondition_ is now known as RaceCondition 00:41:01 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 00:42:14 pkhuong: Dunno exactly. This is what he said: "Though of course its in hardware nowit ought to be, its that important. So Im now doing lots of operations where I assume thats actually a really fast operation. I use that a lot." 00:42:14 zmv [~user@c9531281.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 00:44:16 Saturnation [~dsouth@64.223.106.238] has joined #lisp 00:45:09 gigamonkey: on x86-64, it's slower, even for short strings (256 bytes), than another vectorised loop that doesn't use popcnt (so far)... I 00:46:21 pkhuong: cut off after "... I" 00:46:33 -!- Saturnation [~dsouth@64.223.106.238] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46:50 I was wondering because I heard arguments that bsf/bsr (can't remember which) should be available because it was an essential part of FP circuitry already. 00:47:54 well, still is an essential part of the FPU, I assume. 00:49:11 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:49:52 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.99.177] has quit [Quit: ] 00:50:12 illuminati1113 [~user@pool-71-114-7-169.washdc.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:21 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:54:59 Yeah. I don't know. You'll have to take it up with Knuth. 00:55:26 He may have more to say about it in TAOCP, vol. 4A 00:55:37 I'm sure he has more useful correspondence to follow up on. 00:56:05 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslao226.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:56:33 OK, how about this for starters wrt documentation of arguments to CLIM II commands: Decide that the :documentation keyword arguments for a CLIM command parameter is equivalent to (setf (documentation '(command-name parameter-name) 'clim-command-parameter) "doc here")? 00:57:06 -!- xcv [~xcv@dsl-225-28.hive.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:44 s/documentation of arguments/documentation of parameters/ 01:00:49 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:02:19 pkhuong: No doubt. Anyway, I just ordered 4A. When it shows up, I'll take a peek to see if he talks about it. 01:02:49 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 01:07:35 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:08:35 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:22 Hmm, accept first prompts the user by calling prompt-for-accept. Then accept calls stream-accept. Now stream-accept by default calls accept-1. And accept-1 again prompts the user. This appears to give two prompts, or am I missing something? 01:09:22 01:09:30 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 01:10:17 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:12:43 -!- zmv [~user@c9531281.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:12:56 -!- kulakowski [~user@ip68-0-214-153.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:14:15 gigamonkey: I'll probably wait until my birthday (: 01:14:54 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:30 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:28:11 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:28:32 -!- Spion__ [~spion@77.29.250.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:29:48 gigamonkey: A bit late, but some DSPs have instructions with two memory operands, mostly for multiply-accumulate instructions. 01:32:51 -!- joast [~rick@CPE-76-178-178-72.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:33:30 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-144.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:34:28 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-144.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 01:37:02 Okay, aficionados of old-timey assembyl language. Anyone got an assembly language that predates MIXAL and has local labels (a.k.a. local symbols) 01:38:24 gigamonkey: I might know the right people to ask. One moment. 01:39:08 Quadrescence: cool. Meanwhile, do you have a publisher for your Lisp book? 01:40:27 No. And I'm not sure if I need to worry about that now (but you'd definitely know better when it's appropriate to get a publisher). 01:40:31 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:41:21 Quadrescence: well, talk to me if/when you think the time is right. Gigamonkeys Inc may branch out from Code Quarterly to also publishing books. 01:41:39 Anyway, I can tell you about my experiences with a "real" publisher. 01:42:21 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:46 I'd like to hear it. There's a publisher who has been utterly unresponsive; I'm trying to get their TeX sources for Norvig's PAIP. I spoke with Norvig and he's interested in me making another edition of the book (correctly, and screen/e-reader friendly). 01:44:31 Well, that certainly fits with my experience. 01:44:45 I'd often wait literally months for a response from my editor to seemingly simple questions. 01:45:21 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:45:23 He also said the industry has a pretty high turnover, which seems like it's probably true. 01:45:46 No doubt. 01:47:00 there has certainly been a number of new publishers that seem to be making a go of it 01:47:53 despite my grammar 01:49:01 gigamonkey: has something really changed in the last few years to enable all these smaller publishers? 01:49:14 On demand printing. 01:49:17 I've sort of wanted to go into publishing, or at least technical typesetting. I've been "running" a makeshift not-really-a-business thing where I typeset junk and/or print/cut/bind it. 01:49:27 And yeah, what pjb said. 01:49:28 back in the day there were just a handful, and O'Reilly was the only real maverick out there 01:49:39 hmm 01:49:39 Nowadays, you can print economically books one by one, when the customer orders it. 01:50:02 Though it's apparent quality has diminished. ;) 01:50:09 Yes. 01:50:24 is that what placed like A-book-apart, practical programming, etc. do? 01:50:30 err, places 01:50:54 sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:51:03 It won't be hand-bound, gold plated, tinted lambskin cover, etc. 01:51:13 tritchey: I bet most tiny publishers just get a PDF prepared and make an order from Lulu 01:51:20 there seems to be a whole second tier that is a step above on-demand printing 01:51:48 That's definitiely an option. Plus you can get very small print runs from regular printers which they basically print on big laser printers the same as the POD folks. 01:52:38 Plus Amazon has changed the game. If you can sell your book on Amazon you don't have to worry as much about getting it into Barnes and Noble or Borders or the big distributors. 01:52:56 ahh - distribution 01:53:25 *Quadrescence* will forever try to get his hands on a monotype caster with mathematics. 01:53:29 when I was with New Riders they seemed more like some huge marketing company that happened to make books 01:53:33 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:42 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 01:54:42 or you can just sell a pdf file to your customers and tell them to have printme1 print one if they want it. :p 01:55:29 they were WAAAY more concerned with how a book looked on the shelf (spine width, bold covers, etc.) than with the actual content. 01:55:57 tritchey: of course, it's like almost anything that goes into mass production/commercialization 01:55:59 well sure. nobody reads the book before they buy it. 01:56:10 but they do notice how pretty the cover art is 01:56:10 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:56:15 after all, look at fast food 01:56:16 :) 01:57:37 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:41 Coders at Work was typeset all in sans serif because Apress had this theory about how it would induce more in-bookstore sales from people flipping through it. 01:57:46 Which I hate. 01:58:05 The sans serif, not the possible increased sales. 01:58:24 gigamonkey: that's terrible 01:59:08 Yup. 02:00:21 maybe they should bump it up to 16 or 18pt and bold italic underline the headings, catch people's attentions better 02:01:27 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:03:26 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:28 Well, originally they wanted to put the speaker names (e.g. "Seibel: So what do you think ...") as separate paragraphs. They balked only when they realized that would add several hundred pages to the books length. 02:03:58 -!- Grazl [~Grazl@11.Red-79-150-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Grazl] 02:04:07 Bad enough that they're in bold but they wanted it "to be obvious it's a book of interviews" to someone flipping through it in a bookstore. 02:04:25 ha 02:04:35 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-132-144.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:05:01 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 02:05:21 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:09 any idea where the CL version of MINPACK packaged by tpapp can be found nowadays? 02:06:17 skalawag [~user@66-76-154-135.wtx.sta.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:28 his princeton page went AWOL, taking all the links with it 02:06:35 -!- sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:08:29 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:10:05 DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:54 mathrick: Don't know if it's the same, but maxima has a Lisp version of minpack (converted via f2cl). The f2cl repo (currently offline at SF) has the translation too. 02:13:33 yeah, that's the problem 02:13:37 all the repos are down 02:13:44 which is getting unbearable 02:13:59 rtoym: the cl-minpack was supposed to be slightly lispier 02:14:22 maxima's version I was holding back with, since it uses mk:defsystem, which I don't exactly want to pull in 02:14:38 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:12 Ok. It probably wouldn't be too hard to create an asdf out that. 02:15:48 hopefully not 02:28:14 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:31:03 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:33:38 -!- skalawag [~user@66-76-154-135.wtx.sta.suddenlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:34:30 morlos [~morlos@cpe-76-171-76-155.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:50 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:34:50 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:33 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.188.14] has quit [Quit: hugod_] 02:39:50 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:40:14 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 02:41:02 sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:41:23 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:41:43 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:42:10 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 02:42:32 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:08 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:45:06 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:49:30 adamvh: care to share your signed integer binary-types code? 02:50:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-229-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55:40 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:03 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B4A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:58:58 oconnore [~eric@ip68-230-164-105.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:28 hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.188.14] has joined #lisp 03:03:12 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:04:01 slyrus: What is opticl using for reading binary stuff? 03:04:26 slyrus: Good name by the way. Should be easy to find with Google. 03:05:14 -!- xan_ [~xan@245.Red-79-157-129.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:07:54 yeah, I checked ahead of time 03:08:06 opticl won't really read binary stuff, hopefully 03:08:24 I mean, it will use various libraries 03:08:34 I'm rewriting retrospectiff to use gigamonkey's binary-data 03:08:48 -!- c|mell [~cmell@175.106.59.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:08:50 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.188.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:10:05 What is retrospectiff meant to do? I gather that it reads in tiffs, but I haven't been around long enough to get a good idea of its overall purpose 03:11:06 btw, would any of you use something like http://heroku.com but targeting Lisp (with all developement bells & whistles of Common Lisp) 03:11:09 ? 03:12:32 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:13:08 p_l|backup: It's an interesting idea. Is there something already out there, or are you thinking of a project? 03:14:20 NihilistDandy: A project of mine would include building a significant chunk of it anyway, and I just ended up getting an account on heroku just to experiment with some stuff (even though i'd prefer doing it in lisp) 03:21:41 NihilistDandy: yes, the idea is for it to read and write TIFF images 03:22:57 Ah, okay. What sort of functionality are you going for? 03:23:23 reading, writing, mostly :) 03:23:28 :D 03:23:47 I didn't know if you were going with batch editing or something of the sort 03:25:32 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 03:26:10 adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:34 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:27:34 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 03:27:34 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:29:15 sharps1 [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:31:12 hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.188.14] has joined #lisp 03:32:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:33:45 -!- sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:34:32 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:34:49 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 03:35:48 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:36:35 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:36:56 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:51 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-125.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:39:24 sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:39:41 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-37.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:40:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-37.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41:16 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 03:42:50 -!- sharps1 [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:43:43 sharps1 [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:45:34 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-37.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:46:30 -!- sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:49:31 sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:50:24 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: internet, bro. IN.. TER.. NET!] 03:51:49 wavell2003 [~watson@cpe-66-68-116-199.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:53:54 -!- sharps1 [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:55:05 sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:55 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:00:58 -!- kraison [~kraison@70.90.182.149] has quit [Quit: kraison] 04:02:36 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:59 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:06:17 azaq231 [~derivecto@p4FF69235.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:06:31 -!- azaq231 [~derivecto@p4FF69235.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 04:06:31 azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 04:06:50 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:09:19 sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:32 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:16:16 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:28 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:50 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:29:42 nilly [~nil@c-98-247-253-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:24 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:34:56 -!- wavell2003 [~watson@cpe-66-68-116-199.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:39:05 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.128] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:39:46 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.128] has joined #lisp 04:42:38 snearch [~snearch@f053010222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 04:45:17 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:47:26 rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has joined #lisp 04:56:57 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:58:33 csamuelson [~csamuelso@adsl-240-246-114.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:39 -!- csamuelson [~csamuelso@adsl-240-246-114.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:06:06 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:07:24 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 05:08:13 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 05:10:02 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gvqudujjbbbekxgr] has joined #lisp 05:12:53 NihilistDandy: no, the idea is that this can be used by other libraries that will provide additional functionality 05:13:12 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.230.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:13:20 Oh, lovely. Well, that makes perfect sense, then. 05:15:45 slyrus: Your blurb about dependencies and quicklisp made me consider using opticl as a basis for the drawing functions of CLIMatis (the implementation of CLIM 3), and to add missing things to opticl instead of duplicating it in CLIMatis. 05:16:14 cool! 05:16:54 I remember being disappointed that I had things that I would have wanted to see in clim but that ch-image just had way too much baggage to try to shoehorn all of that into CLIM 05:17:16 I'm hoping that opticl proves to be more appropriate for this sort of thing 05:17:30 (too bad I got distracted rewriting retrospectiff today :( ) 05:17:38 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-117-107.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:17:49 slyrus: I like this code. Looks pretty light. 05:17:52 so I've got 4 bytes, how do I make a float from them? 05:18:05 slyrus: Once I get back to CLIM 3 and CLIMatis, I should be able to tell you what I need. 05:18:08 which? retrospectiff? wait 'til you see the new one :) 05:18:26 Yeah. Giving it a look on github 05:18:32 Ooh, the new one? :D 05:18:32 slyrus: In what way do you want to make a float from 4 bytes? 05:19:01 you tell me :) 05:19:16 the tiff spec says I've got 4 bytes and that they comprise an IEEE float 05:19:46 slyrus: Which spec are you following? 05:20:07 TIFF 6 from 1992, since I'm too cheap to pay the $180 for the ISO sepc 05:20:09 spec 05:21:57 Seems to be plenty of C/++ out there for making floats out of bytes... no CL solution found yet 05:23:50 joast [~rick@CPE-76-178-178-72.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:23:57 Oh, found something 05:24:01 slyrus: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/slib_7.html 05:24:09 there are a few libs for ieee float from bytes 05:24:41 thanks 05:25:53 here's 1: http://common-lisp.net/project/ieee-floats/ 05:26:44 nostoi [~nostoi@173.Red-81-44-158.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:05 -!- simontwo [~simon@78.129.201.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:27:31 quicklisp to the rescue (and nuntius -- thanks!) 05:27:48 simontwo [~simon@78.129.201.122] has joined #lisp 05:28:52 pnq [~nick@ACA3ADD2.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 05:29:31 Heh, what did quicklisp find? 05:33:57 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-78-193.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:36:09 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3ADD2.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:44:07 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@173.Red-81-44-158.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 05:45:35 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-14-100.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:32 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:53:34 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:57:58 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:58:57 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.128] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:59:15 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.128] has joined #lisp 06:00:44 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 06:02:00 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:03:54 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.99.177] has joined #lisp 06:06:10 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:07:49 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 06:07:58 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:16 Quadrescence: still here? 06:15:38 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:16:33 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 06:19:00 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:19:12 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053010222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:20:12 good morning lispers 06:23:32 NihilistDandy: ieee-floats 06:23:46 Yeah, I just looked it up myself. How's it working out? 06:27:50 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28:48 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:28:51 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:59 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:32:19 hello fe[nl]ix , do you have one mement ? 06:33:43 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:37:31 NihilistDandy: to be honest, I'm not sure I have any TIFFs that have floats in them... 06:38:17 Haha, well, better safe than sorry, I suppose. 06:39:06 gigamonkey: you know it ;) 06:44:03 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:44:43 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:47:03 -!- keyvan [~nox@ip68-5-13-232.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:47:36 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 06:47:41 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kvxwdcuoqcqbqtbt] has joined #lisp 06:47:55 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 06:55:10 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:55:49 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:55:59 astoon [~astoon@94.25.192.218] has joined #lisp 07:00:45 aliudalius [~user@68.168.182.86] has joined #lisp 07:02:23 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:02:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:02:23 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:03:10 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:06:58 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:07:05 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:12:22 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-33-115.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:13:27 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:35 manugupt1 [~manugupt1@opensuse/member/manugupt1] has joined #lisp 07:15:29 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:15:32 I'm missing something very obvious here... isn't there some sort of memcpy function in cffi? 07:16:02 jtza8: it is in libc, not cffi 07:16:11 Yep 07:16:13 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:16:21 Some sort of equivilant. 07:16:34 ... unless I should use libc? 07:16:42 jtza8: you're confused. cffi allows you to call a function from libc. 07:16:49 jtza8: any function. 07:16:53 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:17:06 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:17:07 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:17:07 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:17:18 jdz: ah, well thanks. 07:17:32 jtza8: you know what Foreign Function Interface means, right? 07:18:00 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:13 jdz: yes... just thought there might be a convinience function, since copying memory is a common thing to do. 07:18:14 jtza8: i may have missed something, but what is it that you want to memcpy? 07:18:33 jtza8: no, in CL it isn't. 07:18:50 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:19:02 I can't think of a time when it *would* be done, explicitly 07:19:39 jdz: in C it is, and this is an ffi. 07:19:52 c|mell [~cmell@175.106.60.49] has joined #lisp 07:20:00 jtza8: exactly, your ffi is in lisp. 07:20:20 jtza8: hence my question: what is it exactly that you want to memcpy? 07:20:50 jdz: pixel data from one area of memory to another. 07:21:30 jtza8: ok, where is the pixel data stored? how you obtained a handle of it? 07:23:04 jdz: using DevIL to load pixel data of one image into memory so as to stick it on a new area of memory. 07:23:25 mem-aref is my friend, I know 07:25:51 i wouldn't be so sure about that 07:25:52 yay. first successful grayscale TIFF read with the new retrospectiff. 07:26:06 jdz: hence the question. 07:26:21 jdz: but yeah, I'll use memcpy then. 07:27:39 -!- azaq231 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:28:17 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.99.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:28:58 -!- manugupt1 [~manugupt1@opensuse/member/manugupt1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:59 slyrus: Congrats 07:29:24 thanks. it's been a slog, but it's getting close -- at least for reading anyway... 07:29:36 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-duuajtwxtloxmnux] has joined #lisp 07:29:36 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-duuajtwxtloxmnux] has quit [Changing host] 07:29:36 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:32:02 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:32:23 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:34:12 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:34:47 huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 07:37:13 good morning 07:37:23 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:38:06 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:38:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:38:06 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:38:58 morning 07:40:57 yay. rgb. 07:41:27 slyrus: Already? That was quick :D 07:41:48 I reused a bunch of the guts from the old retrospectiff 07:43:42 I'm calling (load #P"/home/kiuma/temp/test.lisp") but this is probably not what I want because I don't find the fasl file anywhere. 07:45:04 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:45:30 and I want the fasl file in ~/.fasls directory, like asdf does. How can I do ? 07:48:21 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:48:48 -!- aliudalius [~user@68.168.182.86] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:49:16 hi, it seems processes created by run-program in SBCL won't receive signals (like SIGINT) as if they are background processes. anybody knows if it's intended? 07:50:10 for example, (sb-ext:run-program "sleep" '("3600") :wait t :search t) and break it by C-c, the process "sleep" still exists. 07:53:33 splittist [~John@154-167.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:53:36 morning 07:53:46 hi 07:53:50 huangjs: how do you "break it"? 07:54:09 jdz: sigint 07:54:32 jdz: by C-c, if it doesn't remmap the signal keys. 07:54:37 huangjs: i mean, you're sending sigint to sbcl process, not the subprocess, right? 07:55:52 jdz: well, isn't that sigint will be sent to all foreground processes in the shell? 07:56:20 huangjs: what shell? you're running SBCL, no? 07:56:41 jdz: yes, SBCL 07:58:00 jdz: I think sigint is supposed to be sent to all foreground processes, which are in the foreground process group... 07:59:05 jdz: which is the pgid of sbcl. 08:00:02 hi c|mell 08:00:20 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:02:35 huangjs: well, you can look at spawn function in sbcl's runtime/run-program.c 08:02:44 jdz: yes, i'm reading it. 08:03:45 jdz: setpgrp() is called, signals are unblocked, hmm... i have no idea. 08:04:43 huangjs: neither do i (have no clue about the process groups whatsoever) 08:06:59 -!- CrazyEddy [~postmatur@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:10:18 -!- weirdo [sthalik@2001:5c0:1400:b::80b3] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:12:31 -!- splittist [~John@154-167.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:13:55 how can I make compile-file to output the .fasl file in the ~/.fasls/ directory just like asdf does ? 08:13:56 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.121.206] has joined #lisp 08:14:05 :output-file 08:14:40 possibly in conjunction with ensure-directories-exist 08:15:14 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:16:16 splittist [~John@154-167.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:16:18 levi` [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:02 -!- astoon [~astoon@94.25.192.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:04 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:17:26 weirdo [sthalik@2001:5c0:1400:b::80b3] has joined #lisp 08:17:40 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:17:40 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:17:47 Krystof, ok but suppose I have the source file in "/home/kiuma/temp/test.lisp", I suppose to have the output fasl in ~/.fasls/sbcl-1.0.45.gentoo-r0-linux-x86-64/home/kiuma/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.0.45.gentoo-r0-linux-amd64/home/kiuma/temp.fasl 08:18:22 just like when I call require for a system 08:20:07 Krystof, I'm asking this, because I'm planning to add a templating system to slime-project 08:20:34 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 08:21:22 I'll let user to put templates in ~/.conf/common-lisp/slime-project/templates/template1/template1.lisp and so on 08:21:54 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 08:25:28 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-86-166.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:17 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:28:22 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:28:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.121.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:29:15 -!- sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:18 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-15-14.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:29:22 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:29:27 -!- ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:30:02 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:30:31 ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:17 sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 08:31:43 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:33 weirdo_ [sthalik@2001:5c0:1400:b::80b3] has joined #lisp 08:36:46 -!- Intensity [iRAntZtNnK@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:37:26 -!- weirdo [sthalik@2001:5c0:1400:b::80b3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:37:27 -!- weirdo_ is now known as weirdo 08:37:30 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-prchybqxgrdveubl] has joined #lisp 08:38:20 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:22 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:38:57 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:02 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:44:20 lharc2 [~user@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 08:46:26 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 08:47:57 HG` [~HG@xdsler155.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:48:01 Hello dear lispers, I'm wondering about sbcl's "debugger invoked" message. I'm seeing it in my log and wondering if it is leaving an thread hanging in the debugger. I have set sb-ext:*invoke-debugger-hook* to an handler. 08:48:44 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B0D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:03 *splittist* gets to the end of lharc2's message, has to re-read it in a cockney voice 08:50:50 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:51:12 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:52:06 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082AF26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:52:06 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:19 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:56 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:59:21 kdas_ [~kdas@210.212.5.88] has joined #lisp 08:59:22 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:01:51 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:03:07 astoon [~astoon@109.188.201.250] has joined #lisp 09:04:14 is the maintainer of closure-html here ? 09:04:24 I've found a bug 09:05:00 here is my testcase http://paste.lisp.org/+2K3R but it works correctly (ie doesnt invoke debugger). 09:06:06 -!- kdas_ [~kdas@210.212.5.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:11:10 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 09:14:09 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 09:15:41 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:17:09 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:50 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.201.250] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:21:13 -!- morlos [~morlos@cpe-76-171-76-155.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: morlos] 09:23:24 kiuma: so you might have to write some code. 09:23:54 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 09:27:05 Krystof, well it's not a real bug, but if I do (setf *print-case* :downcase) in my .sbclrc, closure html doesn't properly work. A simple solution would be to use a closure for *print-case* where needed. Maybe I'll write a patch later 09:27:59 -!- sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:28:26 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:30:58 I was not talking about whatever you're talking about 09:32:02 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.211] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:35:31 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:37:29 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.157] has joined #lisp 09:37:30 astoon [~astoon@109.188.201.250] has joined #lisp 09:47:50 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.201.250] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:47:56 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002923.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:38 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@muze.x.rootbsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:49:20 boyscared [~bm3719@muze.x.rootbsd.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:10 mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has joined #lisp 09:50:11 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@eris.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 09:50:11 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:53:31 ah ok :) 09:54:16 " kiuma: so you might have to write some code." 09:55:04 schoppen1auer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:55:23 -!- schoppen1auer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 09:56:31 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 10:02:33 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:04:11 astoon [~astoon@109.188.201.250] has joined #lisp 10:05:55 tcr1 [~tcr@212.47.174.118] has joined #lisp 10:06:59 thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 10:07:23 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:24 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:08:28 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:12:24 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 10:12:31 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 10:17:37 -!- rme [rme@clozure-755C28A7.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 10:17:37 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-117-158.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 10:18:33 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:18:58 beach` [~user@116.118.2.121] has joined #lisp 10:21:05 -!- beach [~user@116.118.3.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:27:37 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002923.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:30:10 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 10:32:46 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@muze.x.rootbsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:32:52 boyscared [~bm3719@muze.x.rootbsd.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:51 xan_ [~xan@245.Red-79-157-129.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:20 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.201.250] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:37:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:39:17 is there a way within ASDF to bind *READ-DEFAULT-FLOAT-FORMAT* for the extent of compilation of a single system? 10:40:27 add an around method for perform? 10:40:46 lemme try 10:45:44 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 10:51:29 stassats`: doesn't seem to help, things are still read as SINGLE-FLOATs 10:51:44 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.209.205] has joined #lisp 10:51:48 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@173-10-44-57-Michigan.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:51:52 then you did it wrong 10:51:59 quite possible 10:52:02 lemme paste 10:52:02 astoon [~astoon@109.188.201.250] has joined #lisp 10:53:21 but, why not to qualify your floats? 10:53:45 mathrick pasted "Binding *READ-DEFAULT-FLOAT-FORMAT* in ASDF" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119369 10:54:03 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:54:10 stassats`: because it's F2CL code 10:54:16 I didn't write it 10:54:56 so, is the above the wrong way to do it? 10:55:16 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 10:55:31 -!- thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:55:45 mk2 [~user@159.92.65.64] has joined #lisp 10:55:50 thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 10:56:50 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:56:56 mathrick: so, you want that f2cl is compiled with this *r-d-f-f*? 10:57:00 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:58:43 stassats`: no, I want the MINPACK system, which is Fortran code translated by f2cl with assumed DOUBLE-FLOAT to be compiled with it 11:00:32 ``Erik_ [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:49 *splittist* would be tempted to use sed 11:02:20 -!- ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:04:27 but that sort of defeats the point of having F2CL translate the code if it's wrong 11:04:34 and it still should be possible to do 11:05:45 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.201.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:06:32 josemanuel [~josemanue@87.222.1.108] has joined #lisp 11:07:23 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 11:10:02 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:10:48 -!- galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:11:21 mathrick: i don't understand how asdf is supposed to work, but specifying the same :perform in (:file "foo" :perform ...) works 11:12:24 ugh 11:12:28 let's try that 11:13:12 though it doesn't seem to be the right thing to do, there should be some way to let all files to be under this around method 11:14:29 the old way was to define everything by hand, you can look into ironclad.asd for an example 11:14:49 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-93-144.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:33 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:45 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 11:22:11 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-93-144.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:22:26 darrh00 [~user@117.79.232.150] has joined #lisp 11:25:15 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-188-141.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:47 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@87.222.1.108] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 11:32:00 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-188-141.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 11:32:33 wakeup [~max@p5DE8F405.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:37 hiho 11:36:39 k04n [~kn@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:36:46 I am wondering how to implement the following: An interface to a data store (functions: store-get,store-set,store-rem) with a default address that is hidden to the user. So I basically want to be able to write (let ((*special-var* "foo")) (some-function)) and when some-function executes *special-var* should be bound to "foo" in its scope. 11:36:51 any Ideas? 11:37:05 -!- k04n is now known as Guest91347 11:37:12 info 2 576472138 11:37:22 gah, wrong channel 11:37:25 :> 11:37:33 I was like: ok? :) 11:37:55 wakeup: what's wrong with what you showed? 11:38:07 stassats`: It didnt work 11:38:19 wakeup: maybe i should just have let you guess :) 11:38:26 maybe because I used defparameter? 11:38:42 or I defined *special-var* in the wrong scope? 11:38:49 either you think it didn't work, or you think it does something it doesn't 11:39:19 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:39:30 ok so it works that way, thats a confirmation at least^^ 11:40:01 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-93-144.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:18 galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:51 I do have to declare *special-var* first tho right? 11:43:10 no, using defparameter is enough 11:43:21 but where exactly? 11:43:43 wherever you want 11:44:49 Blkt [~user@net-93-151-237-119.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 11:46:23 -!- Guest91347 [~kn@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 11:46:42 good day everyone 11:48:19 hello Blkt 11:48:48 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:49:31 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-93-144.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:50:05 -!- beach` is now known as beach 11:52:19 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:55:02 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 11:55:26 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:07 rtra [~aduck@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 11:58:55 ah I think I failed at explaining: the interface functions (store-get, ...) (called by some-function) which use *special-var* should also use "foo". 11:59:06 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:59:48 everything's still fine 12:02:42 ok I think I see my mistake, what I did was (let (...) (defun foo () ...)) 12:03:15 which obviously only affects the defuns and not the functions called by defined functions 12:04:24 not really, it only affects the expansion of DEFUN 12:04:32 and not the function it will define 12:04:49 you should learn more about special variables 12:04:59 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:06:10 definitely 12:06:27 I think I just wasnt used to thinking in dynamic scope tho :) 12:07:44 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-100-212.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 12:08:02 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-188-141.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:12:38 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:14:23 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:15:42 o/ 12:16:10 -!- darrh00 [~user@117.79.232.150] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:16:40 nikodemus: howrya!? 12:21:41 fine, thanks. you? 12:22:31 i'm trying a revolutionary new diet to lose a few kilos, and it's working great. it's called "eat less and execise more" :) 12:23:57 nikodemus: using the Hacker's Diet tools? 12:24:21 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-176-142.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:25:32 haha, no. just "incf breakfast, delete lunch, make dinner a culinary experience, add 1 hour of excersise every day" 12:26:37 there's this theory that you should first get used to eating less, and then start to exercise seriously; otherwise the exercise makes you hungry and you are unlikely to keep doing that for a long time 12:27:38 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:27:54 not my experience -- but then i've never been seriously overweight 12:30:02 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:32:04 carlocci [~nes@93.37.204.143] has joined #lisp 12:35:51 nikodemus: you've always struck me as a lean fencer type, I have to say. 12:36:20 nikodemus: are you still running the sbcl User Survey? 12:38:46 splittitst: it's still up, and i need to do the final analysis 12:39:14 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:39:20 nikodemus: the nice thing about the hacker's diet tools is that helps you assess whether it's working 12:40:27 splittist: i've been out of fencing for a while now, and getting back next month -- so i'm now paying dues ahead of time for my sedentary habits of past year or two, so that being out of shape won't interfere with training 12:40:51 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:42:58 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:43:01 luis: right. i am big on keeping track of things, but i find that for lifestyle issues like this the amount of planning that shifts me into "planning instead of doing" mode is ridiculously small 12:43:35 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 12:43:37 analysis paralysis -- that's the term i was looking for :) 12:44:56 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:46 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:48:04 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BA39.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:37 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 12:50:07 -!- xan_ [~xan@245.Red-79-157-129.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:51:01 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:51:06 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:53:01 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 12:59:17 Intensity [OarKGxfrDb@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 13:00:18 claint [~user@85.102.228.118] has joined #lisp 13:01:15 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:45 urandom__ [~user@p548A6874.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:50 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:17 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:44 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.200] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:53 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:06:08 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.51] has joined #lisp 13:08:56 -!- alexsuraci` [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:12:01 sorry for n00b question but if i have '((something foo #'myfun) (something2 foo2 #'myfun)) how do I change so that #'myfun is actually the function pointer (and not the symbol #'myfun) I thought you used , to switch between data and code but it didn't work 13:15:20 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:15:21 , only escapes inside ` -- not ' 13:16:45 ah 13:17:00 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:05 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.204.143] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 13:17:08 ` and , aren't magical. if you get confused, just construct the list by hand 13:17:27 (list (list 'something 'foo #'myfun) (list 'something2 'foo2 #'myfun2)) 13:18:00 sure, I can do that but that would become quite more verbose 13:18:07 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:18:07 also, #'myfun isn't a symbol. it's really (function myfun) just like 'foo is really (quote foo) 13:20:28 alexsuraci` [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:50 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:24:49 *attila_lendvai* cheerfully welcomes nikodemus back on borad! :) 13:26:25 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 13:26:44 nikodemus: true, thanks for the info 13:29:02 astoon [~astoon@109.188.197.203] has joined #lisp 13:29:36 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:04 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002923.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:15 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 13:33:40 schoppen1auer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:36:11 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:36:17 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:37:38 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:37:47 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:38:09 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:39:13 sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:41:18 vokoda [~user@host86-179-140-201.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:49 -!- vokoda [~user@host86-179-140-201.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:41:49 vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 13:42:10 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:44:45 zmv [~user@c9531281.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:47:44 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:53 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:50:40 RaceCondition [~erik@88-196-154-28-wifi.est.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:54:43 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:11 grr. can't access sourceforge cvs 13:55:19 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:55:34 -!- zmv [~user@c9531281.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: restarting Emacs] 13:57:50 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:59:12 yes, you picked a bad week to resurface 13:59:18 (hi) 13:59:18 nikodemus: some SF servers got compromised a week ago, and they shut CVS down 14:00:33 i thought they just reset all passwords 14:03:40 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:05:44 now you know the horrible truth. 14:05:59 or glorious, depending on the point of view 14:06:03 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsler155.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:06:52 a glorious death, indeed 14:09:13 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:24 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:11:42 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 14:12:56 -!- nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:15:04 Joreji [~thomas@92-249.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:15:11 vokoda` [~user@host109-153-36-23.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:14 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-188-141.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 14:17:38 -!- vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:18:34 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-188-141.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:49 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:20:02 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:33 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-gvqudujjbbbekxgr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:20:52 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kvxwdcuoqcqbqtbt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:21:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-33-115.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:22:38 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:28 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:24:01 panike [~nwp@fw.lmcg.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:24:47 ilmari [ilmari@knuth.ping.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:25:12 is _Purely Functional Data Structures_ by Chris Okasaki any good? 14:25:47 ilmari: 9 amazon reviewers give it an average of 4.5 stars out of 5 14:26:12 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:27:47 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:09 lol 14:29:33 *ilmari* gets the free kindle sample 14:31:25 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.197.203] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:31:26 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@88-196-154-28-wifi.est.estpak.ee] has quit [Quit: RaceCondition] 14:32:42 kindle 14:32:47 are those any good? 14:32:53 I always thought about getting one 14:33:07 wakeup: If you want to talk about kindles, do it privately. 14:33:20 okok 14:33:37 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-148-200.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:50 G'morning all. 14:34:39 hi nyef 14:34:55 *Fade* waves 14:35:00 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:35:24 astoon [~astoon@109.188.197.203] has joined #lisp 14:35:29 http://www.math.utah.edu/software/minpack/minpack/hybrd1.html <-- I might be stupid, but I don't get it: where exactly do I put the known solution for HYBRD1 to compare to? 14:39:09 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:19 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.197.203] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:39:50 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:39:51 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:40:26 xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.78.123] has joined #lisp 14:40:33 mathrick: what known solution? 14:40:34 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:40:48 rme [~rme@pool-70-104-117-158.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:09 pkhuong: well, the problem is I'm unclear how I'm supposed to use that 14:41:17 I have some equations I want to solve 14:41:20 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1B4C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:41:29 but I don't know how to encode them in a form that can be fed into HYBRD1 14:42:52 you pass it a function to compute the (vector-valued) function. 14:43:09 -!- panike [~nwp@fw.lmcg.wisc.edu] has left #lisp 14:43:36 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.15.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:43:40 yes, I know. But I thought it minimised the distance from some (known) state which'd be given separately, but it just minimised the distance from 0 14:43:42 and HYBRD1 will find a zero of that vector-valued function. 14:43:56 mathrick: no, it finds a solution. HYBRD1 is about feasability. 14:44:04 felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:23 Now, if you remember your calculus class, a local minimum will have a zero derivative. 14:44:38 I do remember so much, yes :) 14:45:03 That's probably a good way to translate your least square problem. 14:45:35 mhm, I need to think for a bit, but now I know what I need to get, I can encode t 14:45:37 *it 14:45:40 pkhuong: thanks 14:45:48 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:22 spiaggia` [~user@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 14:47:10 rlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:43 -!- sharps [~hazel@ip-118-90-82-239.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:47:47 -!- spiaggia [~user@113.161.72.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:47:47 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:47:57 mathrick: what's your original problem anyway? 14:48:45 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:51 pkhuong: finding two sigma-squares for gaussian functions the sum of which I have sampled, and for which I know the means and scaling factors 14:50:43 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 14:51:08 pkhuong: I have to leave now, but I'll read your comments when I'm back, if you have any 14:52:05 mathrick: depending on the size of the instances, there might be more specific approaches (or approximations) than non-linear equation solving. Of course, if the latter works for you, it's all good. 14:53:33 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:48 mathrick: and they would be easier to implement directly in CL at that (: 14:54:39 morlos [~morlos@cpe-76-171-76-155.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:18 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 14:57:15 astoon [~astoon@109.188.197.203] has joined #lisp 14:57:34 pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 14:57:55 is there a way to make common lisp a lisp-1? 14:58:06 mathrick: I'm late to the conversation, but take a look at GSLL if you haven't done so already. 14:59:00 pmurias: a code walker. 14:59:33 But, mostly, a lot of thought as to what that would entail. 14:59:38 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:59:38 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:59:41 what does CL:+ evaluate to? 15:00:23 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 15:00:45 pkhuong: the instances are small, and I'm all ears if you have a specific approaches I could look at. I wanted to do that at first, but it's not exactly my forte, and MINPACK was recommended to me so I went with that. It occurs to me I want the least-squares and not the HYBRD driver, though, since I'm unlikely actually to hit zero with the function sampled from a physical source 15:00:59 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 15:01:24 LiamH: I did, but it's too big to pull in just for the minpack_lsquares. I don't really need anything else from it, not right now in any case 15:01:40 *mathrick* has extra 15 minutes 15:01:49 mathrick: again, if you want to turn a nonlinear optimisation problem into a satisfaction problem, you'll often go through the derivative. 15:02:21 benny [~benny@i577A326B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:31 RaceCondition_ [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 15:02:48 mathrick: too big? in what sense? 15:03:17 LiamH: the whole GSLL just to solve one optimisation problem seems like an overkill 15:03:32 mathrick: if it works! 15:03:52 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:02 pkhuong: I'm not really sure how to apply that to the problem at hand, though. This is a very new area of computing to me 15:04:43 mathrick: solve for nabla (sum [...]^2) = 0. 15:05:00 not to mention I have no idea how to compute a useful derivative out of sampled data 15:05:10 mathrick: If it does your job then it will be just-the-right-kill. 15:05:29 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:05:29 -!- RaceCondition_ is now known as RaceCondition 15:05:38 mathrick: if you can evaluate the least square objective function, you should be able to evaluate its derivative... 15:05:48 I'm trying to figure out if it's convex. If so, you could try a dumb gradient descent, or something smarter like CG or some quadratic solver. For really larger instances, I'd have considered some decomposition approach. 15:05:54 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-104-117-158.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 15:06:08 pkhuong: it's not guaranteed to be convex 15:06:36 pkhuong: what does CG stand for? 15:07:17 pers [~user@71-214-58-123.clsp.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:10 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@212.47.174.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:09:39 what does the term "block compilation" mean? 15:10:21 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:00 weirdo: creating blocks inside which the code is compiled with extra optimizations relating to other code in the block, iirc 15:12:15 kinda like link-time optimization 15:13:17 thank you 15:13:30 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:14:05 vokoda`` [~user@host86-177-246-202.range86-177.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:07 -!- blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:14:12 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002923.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:38 -!- vokoda`` is now known as vokoda 15:14:44 -!- vokoda [~user@host86-177-246-202.range86-177.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:14:44 vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 15:16:26 -!- vokoda` [~user@host109-153-36-23.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:16:55 vokoda` [~user@host109-153-52-235.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:08 pmurias: a lisp-1 macro have been published in cll. 15:18:01 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:18:33 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-249-102.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:19:14 -!- vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:21:59 mathrick: conjugate gradients. 15:22:31 RaceCondition_ [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 15:22:52 morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002923.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:08 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:23:27 p_l|backup: more like translation unit-level optimisation 15:24:15 (there is a CG implementation is MGL) 15:24:16 mathrick: well, if it's not convex, there may be several local minima, and there's no guarantee that HYBRD1 will converge on a global minimum. 15:24:23 pkhuong: yeah, but I tried to use something familiar 15:24:35 (and it's been long time since I've read about it) 15:25:13 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:48 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-4d002923.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:03 morning 15:26:25 -!- RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:27:17 how to i flatten a lists of lists? 15:27:25 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 15:27:57 pmurias: (alexandria:flatten list-of-lists) 15:28:15 (or you make sure that you don't need to do that) 15:29:55 -!- schoppen1auer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:30:14 pkhuong: that's an answer to every question ;) 15:30:35 greaver [~joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:32:47 -!- RaceCondition_ [~erik@82.131.60.32.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:32:58 -!- thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:33:19 thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 15:34:50 -!- thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Client Quit] 15:35:10 thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 15:37:52 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 15:40:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:40:33 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:40:47 HG` [~HG@xdsler155.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:40:54 The trouble with writing tests is that I then find bugs in my code. 15:40:57 pmurias: yet its validity varies greatly with the question. 15:41:58 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 15:43:24 mega1: I should probably look at MGL a bit. I do spend most of my phd time working on optimisation algorithms, it'd be fun to try and do it in CL for once (: 15:44:03 the CG in it is a translation of carl rasmussen's minimize for matlab 15:45:24 it even has a simple test that doubles as a tutorial 15:46:23 what is your phd about? 15:47:47 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:47:53 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:48:40 applying decomposition methods to solve large-scale combinatorial optimisation problems. It's looking like two-level location problems for now. 15:49:42 -!- rtra [~aduck@unaffiliated/rtra] has left #lisp 15:50:25 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-66-206-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:51:12 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-66-206-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:17 It's made me branch out and work on a specialised algorithms for quadratic problems with a huge number of variables (100k-millions) but few constraints [for a bundle search], or, lately, a multiplicative weight update method for LPs. Most of it isn't effective enough for what I'm doing, but it could always be useful. 15:51:22 Kruppe [~user@134.117.27.36] has joined #lisp 15:51:30 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:52:37 I don't know anything about these kind of problems. Any trendy randomized/sampling based algorithms? 15:53:29 There's bundle search for non-differentiable convex optimisation, but I've only seen a few papers on stochastic variants. 15:54:55 are we talking about this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facility_location ? 15:55:34 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.197.203] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:55:53 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:58 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:20 pkhuong: do you have any publications or presentations on your work? 15:57:30 mega1: yup. 16:01:29 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish!] 16:01:46 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.214.128] has quit [Quit: Offline] 16:01:54 LiamH: there's only stuff like on my msc project (which would be an application of my current work). 16:03:26 pkhuong: thanks. I'm interested in applying optimization techniques (with many fewer variables though). 16:03:29 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:41 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:41 how many variable are there in this kind of problems? 16:05:37 mega1: around a hundred k. 16:07:54 and the same order of magnitude for the master problem in the bundle method used to set the lagrangian multiplier values. 16:07:55 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:08:30 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:08:35 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:40 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:10:19 -!- alexsuraci` [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:10:35 alexsuraci__ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:12 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:11:13 -!- alexsuraci__ is now known as alexsuraci 16:12:24 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:44 do sbcl error messages show the line the error comes from? 16:13:04 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:13:14 pmurias: no. 16:13:52 alexsuraci` [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:09 macros make it hard? 16:14:14 pmurias: Read the SBCL documentation about how to read SBCL error messages. They will make much more sense afterward. 16:15:09 me is using clisp but considers switching 16:15:21 clisp gives better error messages, IME. 16:15:31 but i don't know how to create an executable from my lisp code on sbcl 16:15:47 using sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 16:16:10 pmurias: each implementation has a manual describing implementation specific features. 16:20:45 -!- splittist [~John@154-167.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:21:40 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:24:10 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:24:22 -!- claint [~user@85.102.228.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:04 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-158-37.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:42 -!- lharc2 [~user@88.131.67.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:53 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:17 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-12.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:30 adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:35 tmh [639725e8@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:29:45 Greetings lispers. TGIF 16:30:29 mega1` [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 16:30:39 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 16:34:28 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:37:00 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:37:04 tmh: indeed, friday is always a good day. 16:37:38 Days ending in #\y are typically pretty good. 16:40:05 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:13 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 16:40:51 nyef: that's a bold statement, wednesday's typically do not agree with me. 16:41:23 And some people never could get the hang of Thursdays, I know. 16:41:42 Still, it's another day, enjoy it while it lasts! 16:42:30 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:42:43 you won't get another one like it 16:42:59 (of course, sometimes that's a comforting thought) 16:43:31 dlowe: I think that I will probably have another day like this, for a given value of like 16:43:56 you won't get another day EQ to this one :p 16:44:05 Right, but it might be EQL. 16:44:09 dlowe: you couldn't be more correct 16:44:42 dlowe: today marks the end of my most recent small lisp project and a jump back to C for a while 16:44:48 dlowe: not really looking forward to it :( 16:47:02 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:32 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:47:57 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:57 -!- pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:49:30 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:51:09 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:29 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:54:18 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:55:36 gemelen_ [~shelta@shpd-95-53-176-142.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 16:56:11 hkr [~hkr@77.63.186.1] has joined #lisp 16:56:50 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-176-142.vologda.ru] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:56:55 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 16:58:39 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:27 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has joined #lisp 17:02:19 -!- Joreji [~thomas@92-249.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:03:16 -!- pluto12345 [~carcola@unaffiliated/pluto12345] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:36 Kruppe: write a Lisp program to write your C programs. 17:04:03 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.144.42] has joined #lisp 17:04:26 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:07 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-prchybqxgrdveubl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:05:26 Xach: I think that's called ECL. 17:06:04 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has quit [Client Quit] 17:06:12 I was more thinking of or scexp. 17:06:35 That link is broken. 17:06:43 Or borken 17:06:56 zmv [~user@c9531281.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 17:07:07 good afternoon. 17:07:11 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:11 hi 17:08:24 -!- vokoda` [~user@host109-153-52-235.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:44 pkhuong: Wow, the CLiki page for scexp says "Delete this page", links to sexpc that links back to scexp. Recursive delete? 17:09:05 try http://www.cliki.net/scexp?v=1 17:09:38 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:03 hmmm... would you consider comp.lang.lisp to have any meaningful value *nowadays*? 17:10:19 p_l|backup: Yes. It's a good place for questions and discussion. 17:10:38 p_l|backup: As with any unmoderated forum, an ability to be selective about what you follow increases the value. 17:10:38 p_l|backup: I don't read it, the signal to noise ratio is too low. 17:10:47 does anybody here have a copy of scexp ? 17:11:13 -!- morlos [~morlos@cpe-76-171-76-155.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: morlos] 17:11:17 p_l|backup: it's fairly WYGIWYG 17:11:17 I do, amazingly enough. 17:11:24 I sent an email to the author about it, but haven't received an answer 17:12:10 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:35 Xach: would you say that the sensible people there claim that Common Lisp is an unwieldy language? 17:12:42 (that resembles Perl etc.?) 17:13:07 p_l|backup: No. 17:13:15 thanks 17:13:23 wubo [80f40907@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.244.9.7] has joined #lisp 17:13:41 *p_l|backup* is dealing with troll in another (spoken) language that invoked the "experts" of c.l.l 17:14:00 fe[nl]ix: do you want a copy? 17:14:06 kraison [~kraison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 17:14:07 pkhuong: yes, please :) 17:14:14 SC seems like it might be more useful, frankly. 17:14:44 p_l|backup: what is said in other languages about cll experts? 17:14:54 fe[nl]ix: 17:15:21 Another lisp to C system has been announced recently. 17:15:32 pjb: that they claim CL is unwieldy, perl-like cow 17:15:41 pkhuong: thanks, got it 17:15:45 (And I have one in progress, but I didn't work on it for some time now). 17:15:57 it's also slow and interpreted 17:15:58 p_l|backup: What are you reading? 17:16:08 tmh: pl.comp.programming 17:16:27 p_l|backup: you can find plenty of Lisp people who don't like Common Lisp and who will say all kinds of negative things about it. 17:16:45 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:56 p_l|backup: cowness and unwiedlyness tend to reduce progressively, in front of Moore's Law. 17:17:15 Xach: true, but in this case a poor newbie is being fed poison instead of getting useful facts 17:17:46 sometimes we have to agree that we don't share other people's value systems. 17:17:50 I'm not saying the guy shouldn't try Scheme as was suggested, but pointed out fallacies about CL 17:17:55 p_l|backup: When evaluating a programming language, there comes a point where you have to quit relying on other people's opinions and get your hands dirty using it. 17:17:59 emacs at one time was desprecied because of Eight Megas And Constantly Swapping, but today, even if you loaded all the emacs packages you can gather, emacs is a drop in the ocean compared to common applications such as OpenOffice or Firefox. 17:18:19 tmh: That's what I want to get through =) 17:18:32 -!- weirdo [sthalik@2001:5c0:1400:b::80b3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:43 pjb: i run two emacsen at once! 17:18:48 p_l|backup: is there a lot of interest for Lisp in Poland? 17:18:53 I run three at least! 17:19:19 p_l|backup: Pick a language, any language, and you will go round and round reading articles from advocates and detractors. The only real measure is the one you make for yourself. 17:19:22 pjb: funny to think back when "eight megs" seemed like a dire insult. 17:19:46 Well, then they had only 4 MB of RAM. I have 24 GB of RAM :-) 17:19:52 *Xach* conses 800 megs before breakfast 17:20:03 p_l|backup: And that measure doesn't come for free, you have to spend the time really learning the language. 17:21:12 "your mother conses so much, it overflows a 64-bit counter" 17:21:35 -!- nilly [~nil@c-98-247-253-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 17:21:58 stassats`: that insult comes flat to USS Voyager's computer. 17:22:16 pjb: 256-bit then. 17:22:27 your momma conses so much, her GCs stop the world 17:22:30 It probably has more. It's a quantum computer. 17:22:48 Xach: yes, that's more like it. Suspends the universe. 17:23:17 (but then it would still be insignificant to Q). 17:23:19 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 17:23:27 Ugh 17:23:41 *tmh* just vomited a little in his mouth. 17:23:50 Eating too much? 17:23:59 consing much? 17:24:04 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:54 -!- dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:29:47 -!- greaver [~joachim@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30:23 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:31:44 dRbiG [drbig@unhallowed.pl] has joined #lisp 17:31:48 -!- hkr [~hkr@77.63.186.1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:51 charliekilo [~charlieki@70-89-224-81-BusName-panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:59 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has joined #lisp 17:32:27 -!- charliekilo [~charlieki@70-89-224-81-BusName-panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:32:50 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.209.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:32:51 charliekilo [~charlieki@70-89-224-81-BusName-panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:21 -!- charliekilo [~charlieki@70-89-224-81-BusName-panjde.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 17:34:48 -!- pers [~user@71-214-58-123.clsp.qwest.net] has left #lisp 17:35:06 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:23 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:40:11 pjb: not that much...well, not much publicly, though Clojure is gaining populatrity 17:41:15 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@84.119.84.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:43:25 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:44:05 bhaskara [~user@gw.willowgarage.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:30 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:49:37 lol. People liked my comparison of CL to a SSBN :D 17:51:48 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-171-12-242.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:53:12 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:12 (one of the question was marketability of skills in functional and related languages, so I included a writeup of places I encountered the languages I mentioned) 17:58:05 -!- wubo [80f40907@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.244.9.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:58:18 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 17:58:34 em [~em@user-0cev0hn.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:34 -!- em [~em@user-0cev0hn.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:58:35 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 17:58:35 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-138.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:59:02 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:19 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.144.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:34 p_l|backup: SSBN? 18:04:22 Situation Specific Bayesian Network, maybe? 18:04:47 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:08 p_l|backup is referring to nuclear ballistic submarines "Submersible Ship" "Ballistic" "Nuclear powered", obviously. 18:05:17 Submarine (or to be exact, Submersible Ship) - Ballistic Missile - Nuclear Powered 18:05:29 Hah! I thought I was joking. 18:05:40 Hunh. Something new every day, I guess. 18:06:03 p_l|backup: ah I see 18:06:10 *tmh* lowers his periscope. 18:06:30 to be specific, I'd consider CL to be like what NATO calls Typhoon class. Those can go be underwater for a *loong* time, and have some extra amenities to make the crew feel at home, more even than the US ones 18:06:54 (iirc, they even have a swimming pool there) 18:07:06 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:07:13 *stassats`* doesn't see an appeal of making bad analogies 18:07:30 stassats`: nah, it fit very well with the rest of the post 18:07:30 -!- levi` is now known as levi 18:08:03 stassats`: Yeah, that's number 2 for the day. 18:08:33 number 2? 18:09:04 wubo [80f40907@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.244.9.7] has joined #lisp 18:09:24 p_l|backup: My bad, your's was the first. 18:09:29 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:57 tmh: well, it is a bad analogy when taken out of context, definitely 18:12:23 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 18:12:55 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:15:27 tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has joined #lisp 18:21:29 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:21:37 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:21:52 jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has joined #lisp 18:24:33 -!- dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-100-212.xnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:25:44 Is TIME with ISQRT in SBCL accurately measuring both runtime and consing? I am getting a runtime of 0, maybe 1000 CPU cycles, and 0 consing. 18:26:04 and what are you expecting? 18:26:12 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsler155.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:26:13 and consing on sbcl is page-granular 18:26:19 consing reporting 18:27:02 Well, I'm computing isqrt(~11^100007), precomputing 11^x 18:27:32 Quadrescence: are you sure it hasn't been fully constant folded? 18:27:34 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 18:27:45 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:27:52 pkhuong: I'm not sure. I'm trying to "trick" SBCL but am failing. :) 18:28:12 i guess I can try tricking it by defining a function 18:28:18 that's the simplest way. 18:28:31 -!- sellout [~Adium@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:28:36 (integer-length (time (isqrt *x*))) Evaluation took: 0.897 seconds of real time 18:28:46 => 172984 18:29:55 (I actually meant 1,000,007 not 100,007, not that it matters) 18:30:12 i don't have a real computer for such numbers 18:31:36 here's a euro, kid 18:32:59 and besides, lisp is slow 18:33:02 Okay, all that worked. Curse you SmartBitchCL 18:33:36 csamuelson [~csamuelso@173-14-110-121-nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:04 sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:51 and ECL is much faster in computing 11¹ 18:38:03 (because of GMP) 18:38:23 leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:57 mathrick: well, if it's not convex, there may be several local minima, and there's no guarantee that HYBRD1 will converge on a global minimum. <-- actually, I'm not sure if what I said is valid 18:40:02 it might be convex after all 18:42:41 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:39 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-151-237-119.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:47:58 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:48:50 stassats`: there's a runtime patch to make sb-bignum use GMP (: 18:49:03 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:51:08 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:51:55 i guess it would be only feasible after certain size, because of foreign call overhead 18:52:33 Blkt [~user@net-93-151-237-119.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 18:53:32 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:27 beach: it turns out the incf operations I was doing on my opticl images weren't the best. doing a simpler task, such as inverting a single channel in the image, happens in about 6ms on a 1920x1080 image. 18:54:29 stassats`: or hand-roll VOPs. 18:55:27 stassats`: https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/713053 18:56:01 snearch [~snearch@f053010222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:26 hmmm [48053b8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.5.59.139] has joined #lisp 18:58:15 stassats`: I'd be worried about the 2s-complement/sign-magnitude conversion overhead, actually. 18:58:23 is this for Lisps in general or CL specifically? 18:58:45 CL specifically. 18:59:05 oh... 18:59:29 so... I'm kind of new to the Lisp world, and my current language of choice is Lua, which it seems is a lot more like Scheme 19:00:12 so i was wondering, is the whole "functions having a different namespace" thing an accident of history or a solid design decision? it seems odd to me. 19:00:42 Solid design decision. 19:00:45 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-12.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:00:48 I'm not baiting or anything, just wondering what the nature of the thing is 19:00:56 they're both solid design decisions 19:00:58 hmmm: Either work fine, it's more of a preference really 19:01:05 tradeoffs :) 19:01:09 hmmm: it was set in stone by earlier lisps for CL, but it seems like a defendable choice, a posteriori. 19:01:29 what's the argument for it? why not give numbers their own namespace? and strings? It's really confusing to me. 19:02:21 numbers and strings have their own "namespaces" 19:02:26 hmmm: there are tons of other namespaces already: classes and types, catch tags, go tags, block names, ... 19:02:54 -!- konr [~user@ira.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:55 hmmm: basic does just that :) 19:03:00 conditions, restarts 19:03:18 a = 5; a$ = "foo" 19:03:19 so wait just so I'm clear, classes are a CLOS thing right? 19:03:36 it's convenient to let context disambiguate when it's easily decoded, and thus reuse the same name for multiple bindings (e.g. list is both a noun and a verb). 19:03:43 CLOS is at the foundation of CL, it's not something extra 19:04:11 is that a common misconception or I'm I just dense? -.- 19:04:27 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:43 "Why isn't it like what I already know" is a common question about a lot of things. 19:04:47 it's ahistorical to say what dlowe says, but it's still basically true 19:04:47 manugupt1 [~manugupt1@opensuse/member/manugupt1] has joined #lisp 19:04:57 clos used not to be at the foundation of CL, but now it is 19:05:03 hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:07 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 19:05:08 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 19:05:08 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:05:13 maybe you can think of it as having been inserted at the bottom by some really good structural engineers 19:05:16 pkhuong: hmmm yes I suppose so, but on the flip side can't it also be confusing? 19:05:37 near the bottom anyway... 19:05:47 Was that a recursive comment? 19:06:07 :D 19:06:18 hmmm: I don't find it confusing, but I suppose it could be 19:06:42 it would be nice if users could create classes from user-defined-types 19:06:44 the thing is, i thought the foundation of CL was, you know, eval. 19:06:49 a lot of concepts in CL are based on CLOS, even if CLOS came late to the party (: 19:06:53 hmmm: Stick around, you make everyone sound like they're deep in thought 19:06:54 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:06:58 hmmm: it could be, if done wrong. It seems humans can be good at exercising judgment. 19:07:14 hmmm: if anything, it's equal treatment of EVAL and COMPILE (: 19:08:13 and the usual lesson is "don't use EVAL unless you need to" 19:08:15 I've thought about lisp-1 vs lisp-2 and I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter much. I can just call my list variables "lst" in scheme and passing a function as #'myfunction in CL doesn' 19:08:24 doesn't make function not-first-class 19:08:30 Spion_ [~spion@unaffiliated/spion] has joined #lisp 19:08:34 -!- daly [~user@dynamic-acs-72-23-235-203.zoominternet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:35 rien_: "lst" is ugly as hell 19:08:47 yes it's a bit ugly but it isn't a major issue 19:08:55 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-145-12.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:58 one could say it's "an opportunity to give it a more meaningful name" ;) 19:09:00 rien_: I suppose that's true. 19:09:29 a-list 19:09:29 hmmm: I think in the beginning those things like lisp1 vs lisp2 seem to matter a lot but at the end of the day they really don't 19:09:49 and wasting too much time thinking about the philosophical consequences of one or the other detracts from enjoying both languages 19:10:04 hmmm: The only thing I kinda wish I had in clos was the ablity to define behaviour for things like < > and length on new objects. Other than that minor annoyance clos feels nice and first-class. 19:10:06 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:10:49 I just wish I could do something like (use #:lisp1) and I'd get a lisp1 in that package 19:10:57 shadow > and < and define your own GFs 19:11:20 stassats`: I do that sometimes but how do you keep the old definitions? 19:11:34 slyrus: to confuse the hell out of a reader who's used to (use #:lisp2)? 19:11:48 Kruppe: they're still in cl:< 19:12:59 stassats`: Ah, yeah I guess that's true 19:13:11 so do CL programmers tend to use CLOS for even small trivial things that could be done with a simple closure? (Or does my question once again only reveal my ignorance?) 19:13:30 hmmm: no, use what makes the most sense for the problem. 19:13:55 hmmm: it's as hard to write a method as a function. 19:14:52 -!- hramrach__ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:44 phil [~hargettp@pool-71-184-188-141.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:59 pkhuong: CASE? 19:16:14 or rather, TYPECASE? 19:16:26 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-188-141.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:16:33 -!- phil [~hargettp@pool-71-184-188-141.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:16:39 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-188-141.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:30 hramrach__ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 19:17:50 I guess it's just that the way I write Lua, I basically use closures wherever I would use a class/manager/factoryiteratorvisitordesignpatternbullshit in a language like Java. CLOS would be the equivalent of, had Lua a macro language, some macros to describe patterns in the way I use scopes and whatnot? or is it more about giving a nicer-looking reflection framework than make-hash-table? Basically, is it more about _hiding_ or _showing_ or b 19:18:32 CLOS is an abstraction for creating other abstractions 19:19:03 hmmm: it gives you multiple inheritance and multiple dispatch. 19:20:11 dkasak [~dkasak@dh207-76-174.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 19:20:14 pkhuong: aha! ok, that makes sense. 19:20:31 clos is pretty much an antithesis of the way java and c++ do things 19:20:53 and CL also has MetaObject Protocol, an abstraction to create abstractions to create other abstractions 19:21:25 hmmm: an interesting way of looking at it is to look at creating "protocols" of generic functions which define interfaces/abstractions of various kinds 19:22:04 (AMOP has great example of that, in my opinion, by describing Metaobject Protocol in detail) 19:22:05 p_l|backup: so... like static typing? 19:22:14 hmmm: no 19:23:12 hmmm: more like contracts describing certain functionality, and which can be implemented 19:23:15 hmmm: it's more like duck typing. 19:23:21 hmmm: more like duck typing 19:23:23 duh 19:23:35 the protocol way to look at CLOS is interesting, since it exploits the package system for namespacing, as it should be, and CLOS for dispatch. 19:24:45 well static duck typing isn't an impossibility. I guess what I'm wondering is "when" these protocols are "enforced"? is it sooner than would cause runtime errors? is it just a fancy way to comment? 19:25:11 protocols aren't first-class objects. 19:25:23 hmmm: mostly at runtime... It's a design pattern. 19:25:44 If you write the generic functions first, then yes, it's just a fancy way to comment, although it has other consistency checks (which happen at compile time) 19:25:58 (lambda lists need to be congruent, for example) 19:26:38 quad pasted "ISQRT comparisons" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119381 19:26:56 -!- c|mell [~cmell@175.106.60.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27:24 hmmm: you can use protocols similar to how you might use "interfaces" in Java or similar systems, except that thanks to multiple inheritance and MOP you don't have to implement all the functions over and over :) 19:27:40 Quadrescence: what this paste is trying to tell us? 19:27:57 pkhuong: I thought "design patterns" were sort of banished in the Lisp world. The idea is that your code should NOT have patterns in it, right? Lisp is the only language which sort of guarantees that you can always avoid patterns. Isn't that the beauty of it? who needs 'paradigms' when you're solving real, high-level problems? 19:27:57 stassats`: what authorities do I tell 19:27:58 p_l|backup: and depending on the way they're defined, there might be less static checking. 19:28:22 stassats`: I guess I'd tell the SBCL people about it. Right? 19:28:30 about what? 19:28:56 stassats`: oh, shoot, I forgot to paste what it's actually doing 19:29:07 hmmm: at some point smart people will converge on a nice way to express that with macros and and other reflexive tools. 19:29:09 stassats`: the first timing is SBCL's ISQRT, the second is mine. 19:29:24 Quadrescence: yeah, I'm pretty sure there's a smarter way to compute ISQRT than SBCL's. 19:29:52 given that GMP does it in 6 seconds, there surely is 19:30:05 stassats`: does it for what? 19:30:23 designing around protocols isn't so much a design pattern, but more a way of thinking about the tools you're using, if that makes any sense. 19:30:34 Quadrescence: computing 11¹ 19:31:01 what's the function called to get the sourcecode of a function with inline expansion available? 19:31:01 stassats`: Oh, in that run, I computed (expt 11 10000007) 19:31:04 sykopomp: you're giving a name to an informal way of doing things? sounds like a design pattern to me. 19:31:05 10 million 19:31:26 design patterns tend to be targeted towards particular tasks. Designing around protocols is a general way to treat polymorphic tools to get the most out of them, in the general sense. 19:31:35 Quadrescence: you're changing your numbers faster than i can respond! 19:31:42 stassats`: ha 19:32:03 anyway, your algorithm may be faster asymptotically, but is it faster for small integers? 19:32:10 -!- ymv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:32:33 sineer [~cluster@184.163.30.58] has joined #lisp 19:32:39 skyopomp: of course. this idea isn't foreign to me at all. My question is more like "what does this Object System buy me that I can't get with a combination of hash tables and comments?" Someone mentioned making sure lambda lists are congruent... 19:33:36 hmmm: Some things are easier to appreciate by using them instead of having them explained. 19:34:01 hmmm: CLOS handles all the bookkeeping. 19:34:05 hmmm: multiple dispatch, multiple inheritance, a metaobject protocol for altering and extending its behavior, auto-generation of accessors, integration into the CL type system, and a pony. 19:34:07 out of the box. 19:34:13 hmmm: beware of the Turing Tarpit 19:34:18 hmm: if hash tables + closures + comments are better suited to your problem, you should use them 19:34:28 sometimes they are. sometimes CLOS is 19:34:43 and trust me, implementing multiple dispatch on top of glorified hash tables is no picnic. 19:34:45 :) 19:35:24 sykopomp: but is that essentially what we're talking about? 19:35:45 hmmm: not exactly 19:35:47 hmmm: I inherited a piece of code that relies on hash-tables, packages, and comments. I'm planning on refining it with CLOS, but I'll also still rely on hash-tables. In certain cases, they just make sense. 19:35:48 hmmm: you asked what it adds. It adds a lot of features, which may or may not be useful. 19:35:51 no. method combinations are another thing 19:35:59 well, depends on how exactly the implementation implemented them... 19:36:08 oh right, method combinations :D 19:36:09 ah 19:36:25 yeah, method-combinations, filtereddispatch... :3 19:36:52 hmmm: You have fine-grained control of instantiation with CLOS that is inheritable. You'd have to do a lot of that by hand, otherwise. 19:37:01 and MOP, of course :) 19:37:28 hmmm 19:37:51 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.200.47] has joined #lisp 19:38:25 *stassats`* never had a use yet for method combinations other than the standard 19:38:52 stassats`: I keep trying to think of a reason, but always decide it's more trouble than it's worth. 19:39:03 Quadrescence: ok, it takes 128 seconds to compute ISQRT of (expt 11 10000007) on ECL 19:39:15 hmmm: clos has several parts that mesh nicely. CLOS objects are a very flexible way to represent data: you can add new slots to existing instances, etc. CLOS method combinations are a nice way to decompose operations. MOP allows you to generalize things like slot-access, etc, etc. 19:39:46 stassats`: I think that's because of the bignums, not the isqrt algorithm 19:39:50 stassats`: even standard method combinations are worth hyping :) 19:39:51 stassats`: yeah, GMP gets all the basic operations much more right than us, and builds on top of that with better algorithms. 19:40:21 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:40:24 and is incomprehensible, i guess 19:40:33 for me it is, for sure 19:40:40 There is a specified and hookable system of updating instances when a class is redefined, or when the instance's class is changed. 19:41:32 You can also use CLOS fairly effectively without having to know about all it provides. 19:41:32 timor [~timor@port-92-195-52-202.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:41:59 Xach: to me that's a very big plus. 19:42:24 I find that to be the case with CL in general, too. 19:42:31 Xach: that's a cool feature for sure. 19:42:45 *Xach* learns new things all the time that he is glad he didn't *have* to learn up front 19:43:50 I think I get it now. Or at least I can map it well enough to things that I do get. thanks all 19:44:00 *Xach* is also saving up obscure treats for the CL Quiz 19:44:14 -!- hmmm [48053b8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.5.59.139] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 19:44:22 stassats`: I'm actually going to be writing a bignum library for CL as a part of a larger library for numerical operations (which I'm doing with rtoym). I've implemented one in C (arbitrary floats actually), and here's a sort of "whitepaper" for it http://www.symbo1ics.com/files/algs.pdf 19:44:41 Xach: what CL quiz? :) 19:44:51 -!- Kruppe [~user@134.117.27.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:45:00 Xach: Like the "obscure" function which is named as if it were a predicate, but provides useful non-nil return values? 19:45:02 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:45:04 btw, is there a way to grab a list of all instances of a certain class and all of its subclasses? 19:45:19 Quadrescence: does it use different algorithms for different operand sizes? 19:45:54 sm` [s@77.29.16.142] has joined #lisp 19:45:55 p_l|backup: Probably depends on the implementation. Have a look for something like "map heap objects" and use TYPEP. 19:45:56 stassats`: see the pdf. :) 19:46:04 but i don't want to! 19:46:11 nyef: nothing in MOP? 19:46:20 and "yes" or "no" is shorter than "see the pdf. :)" 19:46:53 i'd save them upon instantiating 19:46:55 -!- rins` [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:55 nyef: already in there 19:47:01 p_l|backup: I wouldn't expect so for instances of standard-class, but if you're using a custom metaclass... 19:47:05 with weak references 19:47:05 stassats`: depends on the function in question 19:47:28 rins [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:33 rien_: I am collecting a list of things that surprised me or someone else at one time or another into a playful quiz. 19:47:41 slyrus: I like your (use #:lisp1) idea. maybe it can be done. 19:47:52 p_l|backup: nope. if you're using sbcl see sb-vm::map-allocated-objects 19:48:01 nyef: damn. I don't remember right now what I needed it for, but I guess I'll just put an initialize-instance somewhere that will update the list 19:48:03 Xach: will that be helpful for newbies to CL too or just the experts? 19:48:18 Xach: is read-from-string parameter madness among them? 19:48:36 rien_: It's not meant to be helpful. It's meant to make you feel like you know all the nooks and crannies of CL (or not). 19:48:53 stassats`: not yet. 19:48:56 *Xach* makes a note 19:50:02 quad annotated #119381 "timings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119381#1 19:50:16 and sbcl now provides a style warning for it 19:50:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has quit [Quit: Offline] 19:51:03 Quadrescence: 11^(10^0) is 11? 19:51:14 yes 19:51:15 oh, i didn't read further 19:51:26 carlocci [~nes@93.37.204.143] has joined #lisp 19:51:31 i thought you were trying to intentionally obscure it 19:52:04 Quadrescence: 100 times isn't enough 19:52:35 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.200.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:53:08 and it would look better plotted out 19:53:13 Hmm, I feel dirty using both let and multiple-value-bind one inside each other is it wrong to do that? 19:53:25 it's ok to feel dirty 19:53:39 Sprayzor: sometimes I use m-v-call and values instead. 19:54:07 Sprayzor: (let (... (foo (multiple-value-list bar)) ....) ? 19:54:39 I've used LET*, MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST, and manually destructured the list before. 19:54:42 Anyone has a clue why using sbcl on mac os x I get ASDF could not load lispbuilder-sdl-image because Unable to find framework SDL_image. ... lispbuilder-sdl load fine and I did install SDL_Image lib.. I'm new to lisp... 19:56:05 Sprayzor: splitting the function helps also 19:56:30 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:55 does lispbuilder-sdl have a mailing list or something? 19:57:22 ymv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has joined #lisp 19:57:38 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 19:58:08 ontopic, i want to call make-array with the "parameters" of another array, it was fine embedding (array- original-array)) but the displacement parameters are 2, returned however from a single func (array-displacement) 19:58:27 nikodemus: The link for LISPBuilder mailing list seem down :( 19:58:46 Sprayzor: m-v-call? 19:58:47 so i guess my only option is too deal wit the multiple return values with one of the cited forms 19:58:52 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has joined #lisp 19:59:31 eh, m-v-call wouldn't nice work with keywords 19:59:48 Xach: that's cool too :) 20:00:14 Does anyone know how to send a pointer to a c-struct made with (make-) to a function using clisp's ffi? 20:00:33 cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:40 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-138.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:01:01 stassats`: heh? 20:01:25 pkhuong: huh? 20:01:44 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:01:47 just return the keywords as values, too? (: 20:01:55 "DOUBLE-FLOAD is an illegal type specifier." Kind of a funny typo. 20:02:02 (m-v-bind (displaced-to displaced-index) (array-displacement orig-array) (make-array :displaced-to displaced-to :displaced-index-offset displaced-index)) 20:02:04 that's why i said "nice[ly]" 20:02:20 whats wrong with m-v-bind and keywords there? 20:02:38 nothing 20:02:56 *Sprayzor* feeels relieved 20:03:52 tmh: too bad there's no DWIM 20:04:15 mega1: I agree about M-. interning symbols being bogus 20:04:39 (defgeneric initialise (component &optional object)) 20:04:44 oops 20:04:47 slyrus: can an uninterned symbol name anything? 20:04:53 slyrus: That happens in the LispWorks IDE, it's a real PITA. 20:05:17 perhaps slime shouldn't try to look up it if it's not interned in the first place 20:06:00 slyrus: Then, when I try to use tab complete, I have to select through a bunch of symbols that were interned as a result of IDE operations. So are typo symbols. 20:06:15 So, then, I take a little time and manually unintern stuff. 20:07:10 -!- sm` [s@77.29.16.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07:12 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:07:35 hmm..can you specialise on nil? 20:07:36 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:51 ZabaQ: NULL is the class you're looking for. 20:08:23 thx, pk 20:09:43 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 20:10:01 hmm. I'm not entirely sure how &optional affects sepecialisation 20:10:15 ZabaQ: you can only specialise on required arguments. 20:10:15 it can't be specialized 20:10:16 It doesn't 20:10:42 ah! 20:10:48 well, that explains it.. 20:11:39 quad annotated #119381 "will stassats ever be satisfied with benchmarks " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119381#2 20:16:26 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-188-141.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:16:46 benchmarks are flawed, anyway 20:17:58 ok, i think i got a fix for M-. interning symbols 20:19:05 it's based on the assumption that an uninterned symbol can't name anything, is there any counterargument? 20:19:52 Blkt` [~user@net-93-151-238-83.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 20:21:14 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-151-237-119.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:23:54 *stassats`* is afraid there can be some other cases where read-from-string should be used, like some crazy reader-macros naming things 20:24:48 -!- jkantz [~jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:26:32 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053010222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:27:39 well, if anyone is interested, and don't use M-. on crazy things, I can give a patch 20:30:08 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-52-202.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:40 timor [~timor@port-92-195-52-202.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:08 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:32:02 adu [~ajr@pool-173-79-54-138.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:43 yvdriess [~Beef@83.101.33.137] has joined #lisp 20:34:57 i don't expect M-. to understand reader macros 20:35:24 does M-. have prefix version yet? 20:35:38 i don't either, but i don't know whether it'll please helmut 20:36:10 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:48 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:39:08 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:40:30 *stassats`* will do the old trick: commit and wait until someone complains 20:41:19 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:24 better to ask for forgiveness than for permission. 20:44:26 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:44:47 users are usually quite unresponsive to surveys, unless it breaks something for them 20:48:59 -!- hdurer_ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:48:59 hdurer_ [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 20:49:04 -!- hdurer_ is now known as HDurer_home 20:49:30 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Fullma] 20:49:34 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has quit [Quit: Offline] 20:51:42 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 20:58:05 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:58:23 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has joined #lisp 21:00:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@92.60.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:04:55 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:05:00 dmytrish [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:46 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@beting-proceeds.volia.net] has left #lisp 21:07:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@92.60.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08:47 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:10 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 21:15:30 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has quit [Quit: Offline] 21:16:50 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c474.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:55 yo 21:17:08 yo 21:17:10 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 21:17:30 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:17:40 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:17 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-184-49.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:53 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:20:59 csamuels` [~csamuelso@173-14-110-121-nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:15 sooo I've been running a sbcl process monitoring process for a week or so now and I notice that it's taking 231M of "real memory" according to OSX but (room) reports 92M of use. I am using some cffi (clsql, my own stuff) so how can I detect memory leaks? 21:21:23 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 21:21:59 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-184-49.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:22:10 -!- csamuelson [~csamuelso@173-14-110-121-nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:24:50 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:07 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-184-49.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:08 cheez: I don't think it is a memory leak. 21:25:35 prxq: why do you say that? 21:25:47 a couple of days ago it was at 140ish 21:25:48 the 231 M are the memory area, so to speak, the 92M is what is actually allocated 21:26:05 huangho [~vitor@201-89-184-127.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:26:07 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has joined #lisp 21:26:12 cheez: what happens if you do (sb-ext:gc :full t) ? 21:26:40 the GC needs some slack to be able to work well 21:26:42 prxq: actually I think you might be right, "Private Mem" is 141 which is probably what I was looking at the other day 21:26:53 ya it will have slack, nothing much going on 21:27:27 prxq: after running that Real Mem down to 225 and Private down to 130 21:28:24 cheez: the OS didn't reclaim memory from SBCL 21:28:27 oh and (room) reports 82M 21:28:33 it is of course entirely possible to have data structures growing unboundedly for some reason. That is sometimes hard to detect. 21:28:39 and room wouldn't know about foreign memory 21:28:51 *p_l|backup* ponders how to make SBCL signal to OS to reclaim memory 21:28:56 yeah I'm worried about the foreign memory 21:29:05 virtual memory is so borked everywhere ;_; 21:29:07 I wonder how to disable caching wholesale for clsql 21:29:15 that may give truer results 21:29:17 cheez: there is a special variable for it. 21:29:19 cheez: I don't know OS X, but istr that these numbers aren't terribly accurate in linux 21:29:22 apropos will find it. 21:29:45 prxq: more like the numbers in linux are completely random :P 21:29:45 SB-SYS:DEALLOCATE-SYSTEM-MEMORY (fbound) 21:29:58 there's a way to check *exact* memory usage on linux, though 21:30:05 (been there for last few versions) 21:30:17 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:30:21 mascotte [p.scott@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-18-225.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:30:33 Xach: found it 21:30:50 *DEFAULT-CACHING* looks to be it 21:32:23 More like *DEFAULT-CASHING* eh? being Steel Bank and all 21:32:44 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:32:54 planned bankrupcy or something 21:32:56 prxq: I'm not worried about it being accurate, just trying to make sure there is no trending upward 21:32:56 hrmm... unoptimized array-dimension-p really hurts 21:33:02 i mean array-in-bounds-p 21:33:06 Quadrescence: in steel coins? 21:33:09 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.180.218] has quit [Quit: Offline] 21:34:05 *stassats`* waits for a Wooden Piggy-bank Common Lisp 21:34:06 stassats`: of course, the workers at the steel bank are cons 21:34:11 cheez: i understand that. Juts saying that the numbers might be inaccurate, and give a worse picture than is actually the case 21:34:47 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:35:21 -!- Blkt` [~user@net-93-151-238-83.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:35:34 I guess I can't call my lisp implementation Stinson Beach Common Lisp :( 21:35:37 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:42 fortunately I don't have one to name 21:35:42 prxq: I think I'll restart the process, disable clsql caching and see how it goes. It should stay roughly near starting memory after gc if there are no slow leaks 21:35:54 or growing data structures 21:36:37 francogrex [~user@109.130.214.11] has joined #lisp 21:36:41 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:38 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:41:33 slyrus: for me its worse, SB are my initials, so i can't name a CL implementation after myself 21:41:37 it's 21:41:54 kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.226] has joined #lisp 21:41:59 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:42:11 maybe you could have some playful, friendly variation on your name, like "stasi". 21:42:14 a blessing in disguise 21:42:39 Xach: or SS 21:42:44 scllcs 21:42:59 stassats`: even better 21:43:47 minion: what does SBCL stand for? 21:43:47 Sesquisilicate Binucleolate Common Lisp 21:43:58 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:02 I'm so glad chandler implemented that 21:44:37 minion: what does sarcasm stand for? 21:44:37 Syllabe Axion Reptiledom Choreiform Acraturesis Siphonopore Moronity 21:44:39 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:58 minion: what does TLA stand for? 21:44:58 now I /am/ glad he did (: 21:44:58 Towrope Lingwort Amniotome 21:45:06 *stassats`* understood only "Moronity" 21:45:16 that is more than enough (: 21:45:28 -!- antifuchs has set mode -o antifuchs 21:45:55 pers [~user@249.sub-75-220-250.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:48 how old is that "feature"? Six years? 21:47:05 minion: how old are you? 21:47:06 why do you want to know? 21:47:08 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:26 Never ask a lady her age. 21:47:37 oh my, i forgot to commemorate Planet Lisp's seventh birthday. 21:48:48 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:55 happy birthday, planet lisp! 21:49:44 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:05 tmh: What if they tell you spontaneously? 21:52:58 Odin-: That is completely compatible with the rule. 21:55:20 slyrus: you could abreviate it to stbecl. 21:55:23 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:56:30 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:37 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c474.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:54 tmh: Oh. I was waiting for the "then it's no lady" line. :p 21:57:01 I propose that we start a lisp implementation registry. Henceforth, all common lisp implementations will be given a unique 27 digit identification number prefixed by the 2 letters 'c' and 'l'. 21:57:15 Reverse-domain naming should suffice. 21:57:32 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:57:51 Odin-: If she's not a lady, you're wasting your time talking. 21:58:08 -!- hun [~user@91-65-90-50-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:20 Xach: well, if it goes on like this, and indeed every lisp programmers writes his own CL implementation, yes. 21:58:38 -!- jikanter [~a@66.146.192.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:59:14 I'm not a fan of reverse-domain naming, especially in package names. It lacks a certain aesthetic. 21:59:33 tell that to gigamonkey 22:00:04 tmh: because we lack hierarchical packages and conduits :D 22:00:06 honestly? With the whole of Unicode, every lisp programmer in the world can have their own single-character package 22:00:12 sorted 22:00:16 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c474.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:08 perfect for making lisp more newbie unfriendly 22:01:39 snowman common lisp! 22:01:41 slyrus: recommend an editor without paren matching! 22:01:48 Krystof: I'm envisioning the equivalent of nuclear warfare among lispers for the ownership of the unicode lambda character. 22:02:22 tmh: that amounts to a cordial exchange of stern reprimands 22:02:43 tmh: there are at least 14 lambda characters in Unicode 5.0 :-) 22:02:57 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:00 tmh: yeah, reverse-domain naming reeks of java 22:03:22 felideon: but it has sound technical advantages. 22:03:23 prxq: Followed by a discussion thread numbering in the tens of thousands on the finer points of who deserves lambda and how it would have been settled back in the 80's. 22:04:13 pjb: Valid point, I've always acknowledged that. 22:04:36 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:04:44 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6874.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:45 pjb: this is true. 22:04:56 Good morning everyone! 22:05:02 Krystof: They'll be known as the "Gang of 14" The smuggest of the smug lispers. 22:05:12 Greetings beach! 22:05:17 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:05:27 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-75-69-129-101.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:05:59 Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 22:06:05 hey beach 22:06:07 urandom__ [~user@p548A6874.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:58 *p_l|backup* shows his fanboyism by using $ in package names, like something$something:symbol 22:07:00 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:24 p_l|backup: fanboy of what? 22:07:30 prxq: guess :P 22:07:34 java? 22:07:35 perl? 22:07:42 VMS :D 22:08:07 Doesn't the first something have to be three letters long? 22:08:12 minion: what does VMS stand for? 22:08:12 Vinaigrette Maremmese Sternonuchal 22:08:24 nyef: didn't care about designing a proper name right now 22:08:42 LSP$SOMETHING:SYMBOL ? 22:09:02 nyef: can be. 22:09:42 also, if we were maclisp-happy, we should have an @:symbol package, with symbols in it being functions that run some services :) 22:10:05 though my lore on that is murky, been long time since I touched it 22:10:28 felideon: I don't know what the problem with reverse-domain naming would be if it were easy to adjust context so you didn't have to refer to the whole thing each time. 22:11:09 sykopomp: Maybe it's time to port the old hierarchical packages and conduits hacks to SBCL/CCL? 22:12:12 *Krystof* would like per-package nicknames 22:12:17 lurker-x [~androirc@c-75-72-99-111.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:20 me too 22:12:31 Krystof: you mean like aliases? 22:12:37 -!- UnwashedMeme [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 22:12:57 sykopomp: write a CDR and have implementations provide relative pathnames. Some implementations already have them! 22:13:07 *sykopomp* would like to be able to have per-package aliases for symbols and other packages. 22:13:16 pjb: didn't Allegro already define a 'standard'? 22:13:26 -!- rins [~user@173-162-214-174-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:51 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:14:01 Apart from copyright, you could of course strongly inspire yourself from Allegro's documentation for a CDR> 22:14:08 rgov [~rgov@128.213.33.222] has joined #lisp 22:14:33 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: make like my pants, and split] 22:14:43 rgov pasted "my-gethash" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119384 22:14:46 I thought they presented it for the purpose of having it be reused. 22:14:48 *sykopomp* checks. 22:15:03 in that paste ^ i was wondering why i can't use (setf entry ...) to refer to the entry i looked up in my let 22:15:22 rgov: and what did you find out? 22:15:26 sykopomp: Ah, you mean in the CDRs. I don't remember exactly the list, although it is still short. 22:15:45 ehu: hm? i found out that it doesnt work :) 22:15:52 it sets nothing in the table 22:16:06 rgov: right. that's correct. 22:16:12 the entry itself is a value 22:16:18 not a reference to an entry. 22:16:28 so i should repeat my (gethash ...) 22:16:30 (setf (gethash ...) ...) 22:16:47 there the (gethash ...) is the reference to the entry. 22:16:48 yup. 22:16:54 it's called 'a place' 22:17:02 something which is setf-able 22:17:03 pjb: indeed, they provide the source code for implementing their hierarchical packages as pulic domain. 22:17:08 ehu: thanks 22:17:10 http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/8.2/doc/packages.htm 22:17:36 rgov: the 'entry' in your paste is a 'binding' 22:17:52 it's something which is setf-able, but changes the value bound to it. 22:18:06 not the value of the thing that gave it its original value. 22:18:12 SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:13 sykopomp: yes, it's "Copyright (c) 1998-2010, Franz Inc. Oakland, CA., USA. All rights reserved.". It would have to be respecified into a CDR. 22:18:14 leo2007 [~leo@120.33.24.178] has joined #lisp 22:18:27 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.214.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:35 sykopomp: perhaps asking Allegro first if they don't mind deriving it from their documentation. 22:19:21 I don't see why anybody would object to duplicating interfaces (: 22:19:34 after all, this is how lisp was supposed to look like from the start, don't you realize <-; 22:19:47 "We hope that CL implementations othar than just Allegro CL will include this facility. All the source code used in Allegro CL to implement the facility is included below." 22:19:58 -!- Davidbrcz [david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:20:06 sykopomp: do you have a link? 22:20:12 prxq: already provided 22:20:13 Doesn't RPG have some alternative to packages? 22:20:19 is there a reason why maphash does not return a result? what other method could i use to get a list of keys in a hash table? 22:20:22 ah sorry 22:20:48 pjb: you are right, though, that they stop short of explicitly allowing the text to be taken verbatim, or giving explicit licensing permission to derive from it. 22:20:58 which is funny. 22:20:58 rgov: well, maphash, and in the function, push onto a list. 22:21:06 rgov: it's not obvious what it should result, i.e. different people could expect different things. 22:21:08 rgov: or use the hash table loop keywords & collect. 22:21:26 tmh: Are you thinking of Ron Garret (aka Erann Gat)? 22:21:38 rgov: otoh, it is a bit silly that there is no dohash macro a la dolist or dotimes. IMO. 22:21:43 rpg: Yeah, sorry for the ambiguity. 22:21:51 sykopomp: what's the advantage to be gained from hierarchical packages? 22:22:00 -!- pers [~user@249.sub-75-220-250.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 22:22:11 prxq: there's a maphash, and a with-hash-table-iterator. Writing a dohash should be trivial. 22:22:24 He has lexically scoped packages, which gets around a lot of nastiness from the global-ness of packages (e.g., nickname/name collisions, etc.) 22:22:44 LOOP can iterate over hashes, right? 22:22:50 isn't that enough of DOHASH? 22:22:50 ehu: yes 22:23:00 ehu: naming packages with long, low-chance-of-conflict names (like Java's reverse-domain convention) while still being able to refer to them concisely, without running into nickname conflicts. 22:23:03 rpg: That's what I was thinking of, but I can't find it. 22:23:38 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:41 pjb: sure. Dolist is also easy, but it is provided. 22:23:52 not sure how well Allegro's version achieves this, but that's the ideal. 22:24:10 -!- mega1` [~user@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:24:11 sykopomp: I don't like Franz's way: they're claiming 8 toplevel names of their own. 22:24:35 sykopomp: com.franz and common-lisp. would have been much nices. 22:24:39 nicer. 22:24:45 right 22:25:11 the example that comes to mind is always the mess that I've run into when trying different JSON libraries. 22:25:29 several of which use "JSON" as a nickname :( 22:25:50 gravicappa [~gravicapp@92.60.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:25:55 because it does make complete sense to use their library functions by prefixing them with json: 22:26:02 *ehu* should add a knob to ABCL to ignore nicknames on the request of the user 22:26:15 but as soon as you want to load both into the same image to compare them... :( 22:26:16 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:26:30 hehe. I can imagine the issue. 22:27:57 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:59 rpg: Do you know where the lexically scoped packages are located? I'm absolutely failing at finding them. 22:28:21 as a side-note, I really like Kernel's way of addressing the entire namespacing thing. A hierarchical namespacing system with aliases and all that falls right out of the core design. 22:28:30 tmh: No, I'm afraid not. Have you tried googling for something like "Ron Garret Common Lisp" ? 22:28:42 possibly with "packages" also. 22:28:53 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-77-24.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:57 lexicons? 22:28:57 If you find this, maybe it should be put somewhere safe (e.g., c-l.net). 22:29:01 rpg: I get his homepage, but it's a dead end there. The only thing there is his "Packages for Idiots" paper. 22:29:26 sykopomp: I thought that's what it was called, but that turns up a lot of other hits on Google. 22:29:40 tmh: http://www.tfeb.org/lisp/hax.html 22:30:10 first in google if you know the correct term to search by :) 22:30:26 Soulman [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:40 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 22:30:46 (it's "conduits common lisp") 22:30:59 tmh: google erann gat maybe? 22:31:03 p_l|backup: Is that the same as lexicons? 22:31:30 tmh: dunno about lexicons - conduits were an extension to packages 22:31:33 -!- js0000 [~js@67.208.188.68] has quit [Quit: weekend!!!!] 22:31:52 and I recall that iolib had its own implementation of it 22:32:10 the second hit for "ron garret lexicons" is "Ron Garret considered harmful" 22:32:17 but there's useful links after that. 22:32:17 HG` [~HG@xdsler155.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:32:18 :) 22:32:23 Hah! 22:32:28 lol 22:32:55 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:33:19 http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2009-11/msg00131.html <--- rotfl 22:33:57 the next message in the thread is also wonderful :) 22:34:18 p_l|backup: "lol"? 22:34:44 sykopomp: the quote 22:35:08 I consider "lol" a nice endpoint for it, though :) 22:35:25 heh 22:35:40 c.l.l. links make me appreciate the atmosphere in #lisp 22:35:42 tmh_ [639725e8@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 22:36:03 timack [~tim@hlfx59-1-147.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 22:36:10 My internet connection makes me mad, sometimes. 22:36:17 which I am, of course, ruining for trying to start a metadiscussion. Back to bashing my forehead against Cells now. 22:36:50 -!- tmh [639725e8@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:37:19 -!- tmh_ is now known as tmh 22:39:04 sykopomp: ? 22:39:26 I think the more I use Cells, the less I like it. :) 22:39:38 sykopomp: why? 22:39:43 the API is painful. 22:39:56 for reasons mostly unrelated to the basic idea. 22:40:27 have you looked at the alternatives? 22:40:37 no, because there's no point in doing so. 22:40:44 sykopomp: why? 22:40:48 i keep forgetting the name of one of them. computed-function or something like that 22:40:55 computed-class 22:40:58 because Kenny is leading the project, and Cells is here to stay. 22:41:04 ... ouch 22:41:05 computed-class it is 22:41:15 interesting 22:41:36 I've avoided looking at computed-class. I'm afraid I might like it too much and actually fall to tears when Cellsing. 22:42:37 sykopomp: well, you can always use it in your next project, if you like it too much. 22:42:37 oh, wait, the hungarians wrote it? 22:42:38 :P 22:42:49 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:42:54 oh haha. That's right. 22:43:01 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:43:02 sykopomp: what is wrong with the API? do you have examples? 22:43:55 prxq: afaik the old complaint started back by computed-class authors was namespace pollution 22:44:10 prxq: widespread use of magical lexical variables (such as 'self'), heavy class-orientation 22:44:21 prxq: and incomprehensible variable names. 22:44:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@92.60.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:29 oh yeah, right, the variable names 22:44:56 there's also this thing where there's a bunch of manually-written ^foo macros that expand to (foo self). 22:44:59 I remember trying to use cells, and thinking that this was horrible enough to try and setf the symbol-name of every single symbol in the package (: 22:45:07 one particular gem is that you can write observers on slot names. 22:45:16 and there's a value slot that's widely used in Cells. 22:45:20 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-89-184-127.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45:26 with an accessor named 'value 22:45:31 but the actual slot name is .value 22:45:38 lol 22:45:50 sykopomp: there's a backstory to that, it just was never fixed. 22:45:52 not for any important reason, but because Kenny wanted .value to show up higher in the ACL inspector/debugger/something 22:45:55 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:57 http://imgur.com/gallery/S0BtP <--- after some time with Cells? 22:46:00 that looks like simply bad karma. Could as well rename it 22:46:00 sykopomp: heh:) 22:46:32 I would say it's silly to complain about, but I spent a good while punching my keyboard over a bug this caused. 22:46:59 sykopomp: what project are you working on, btw, or is NDA invovled? 22:47:02 *involved 22:47:03 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:47:13 sykopomp: that's not a bug, that's lack of Cells knowledge 22:47:26 felideon: that's the unlearnability of Cells, more like. 22:47:30 -!- bhaskara [~user@gw.willowgarage.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:47:43 Cells is not designed to be used by anyone but Kenny :) 22:47:52 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:48:11 and it works well enough for him, of course. 22:48:24 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:32 function names like fmo^-typed, fm-other, fm-otherv?, fm-other!, fm-other?!, etc. Real lovely. 22:50:37 sykopomp: The CMU Garnet guys did a better job when they wrote KR, IMO. 22:50:40 fm-other?! looks bad 22:50:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@92.60.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:51:18 No evidence that the Cells folks have looked around at any prior art. 22:51:23 that's what happens if you program without expecting someone else to use the code. Bad karma :-) 22:51:36 rpg: Cells is pretty old 22:51:37 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:41 rpg: folk. one guy. 22:51:49 prxq: Garnet is WAY old. 22:52:08 rpg: ah ok 22:52:12 prxq: Who said he doesn't expect anyone else to use it? ;) 22:52:30 And Alan Borning (?) was doing this kind of stuff way, way back. 22:52:51 rpg: looking into prior art is not the case here 22:52:57 from what I can tell at least. 22:53:01 rpg: well, he has written about the mistake of previous efforts being to try to solve a general case that is both very hard and unnecessary 22:53:05 the issue at hand is Lisp style. 22:53:34 no-no's that make the API unfriendly. but it's not supposed to be a "come one, come all" library. 22:53:39 sykopomp: nowadays, but I think he wrote it for himself during the dark years 22:53:49 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 22:53:50 prxq: exactly 22:54:09 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:30 *rpg* got Cmd-Q in the wrong window... 22:54:50 rpg: Cmd-W ? 22:55:08 felideon: trying to close some other app... 22:55:16 ah 22:55:27 rpg: what happens to me is I try M-W and do Cmd-W 22:57:01 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-249-102.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:57:51 whee [~whee@smaertness.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:21 -!- csamuels` [~csamuelso@173-14-110-121-nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:08 using a . in a slot name so that it appears first in the inspector is wicked :-) 23:01:24 the next person will use .. (: 23:01:34 has something deeply irreverent to it 23:03:29 and to think you could just use % (: 23:03:42 or AAA 23:03:48 hahaha 23:03:56 AAAvalue! 23:03:59 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:04:07 acme-value 23:04:20 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 23:07:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@92.60.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:10:18 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:09 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 23:11:23 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c474.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: .goodnight!] 23:13:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@92.60.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 23:14:36 p_l|backup: "its own implementation" of what ? 23:15:47 -!- MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:17:41 -!- tronador_ [~guille@190.145.89.146] has quit [Quit: tronador_] 23:19:02 fe[nl]ix: conduits 23:19:31 p_l|backup: nope, I'm using tfb's code 23:19:43 fe[nl]ix: ah, good 23:20:02 which is a bit buggy 23:21:11 in some cases I get weird symbol collisions 23:23:27 I need to sit down one day and make sure his hierarchical packages tweak works on SBCL and CCL 23:23:27 -!- rlevel is now known as rootzlevel 23:23:40 otherwise, hu.dwim makes want to smash something :/ 23:25:16 not to mention the unicode chars in the .asd files 23:26:59 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:36 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:06 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:30:56 the horrors 23:33:36 -!- zmv [~user@c9531281.virtua.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:33:55 -!- mk2 [~user@159.92.65.64] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:41 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:46 -!- tmh [639725e8@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 23:42:20 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@128.153.215.226] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:42:49 -!- felideon [~felideon@65.23.61.98.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:42:50 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:17 Out of curiosity 23:43:27 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:43:37 Can you declare the type of something to be the type of some other thing? 23:44:18 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-52-202.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:22 like (declare (type (type-of ) )) 23:44:26 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:32 Not really, no. 23:45:10 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:45:10 Though I can see why you might want to be able to do that. 23:45:22 even if that other thing was declared with detail previously? 23:45:27 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 23:45:36 At the same time, most common lisp compilers wouldn't be able to take advantage of it anyway. 23:46:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@92.60.21.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:46:33 Sprayzor: You can sometimes use the reader (defparameter *x* 12) (let ((y 10)) (declare (type #.(type-of *x*) y)) (+ y 20)) 23:47:25 beach: defparameter may have no other compile-time effect than noting that the variable is special. 23:47:26 but that takes the type of the value, not the previously-promised type 23:47:44 antifuchs: Indeed. 23:48:15 pjb: Hmm, OK. Would eval-when help? 23:49:00 Yes, it's indicated here. Actually, it's even specified that it must NOT evaluate the expression at compile time. (without an eval-when). 23:50:18 Also, the use of type-of is dangerous (implementation dependant). Some implementation would return (integer 12 12), and thus could signal an error in the let. 23:50:48 tronador_ [~guille@190.67.59.189] has joined #lisp 23:52:08 pjb: It is probably not what was asked for anyway, as antifuchs pointed out. 23:52:25 I was trying to make a copy-array kind of monster, but sbcl complains that even though the element-types and every single attribute is the same the rank is not known at compile time 23:53:25 Strange. My copy-array and alexandria's seem to work fine, even on sbcl. 23:53:32 that should just affects speed, not correctness or safety, right? 23:53:35 ie. using array-element-type. 23:53:46 It behaved weird on mine 23:54:02 because of type upgrading, but it should be ok. 23:54:10 since didtn matter what parameters you passsed it alwatys returned an adjustable array 23:54:19 fyi, that issue I was talking about earlier memory growth seems to be fixed if I disable clsql caching. Good to know as there is some horrendous ffi in there 23:54:32 -!- rgov [~rgov@128.213.33.222] has left #lisp 23:55:00 thus provoking another sbcl barf about how a non-simple array was not elegible for optimization 23:58:45 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp