00:01:28 yan_: With that, you should be able to PERMUTE-COUNTERS fairly easily. Just hold the initial closure for each position, more or less. 00:02:52 nyef: won't it make a new stack frame each invocation? 00:03:05 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:05 as in, grow the stack at each iteration through the closure? 00:04:47 No, why should it? 00:05:04 It heap-allocates the new closure. 00:05:19 But it's a fresh one each time, so your storage overhead is bounded. 00:05:46 but it'll free it once i lose a reference to it? 00:05:54 Yes, that's the point of GC. 00:06:01 :) 00:06:54 pnq [~nick@ACA31D1D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:07:13 so just advance the next closure as soon as the first one returns nil? 00:07:26 There's a minor optimization available here, btw: once INDEX exceeds UP-TO, there's no real need to keep creating /new/ closures each time through, but I couldn't be bothered making that happen. 00:07:56 Yeah, and you keep the first closure in the sequence handy so you can restart the first sequence when you do so. 00:08:02 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:08:13 Your next trick after this might well be learning about &REST lists. 00:08:23 -!- kurtsmith [~chatzilla@ksmith.physics.wisc.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08:36 nyef: i know about &rest lists 00:08:58 nyef: mind if i pm you? 00:10:02 I guess not. Any particular reason you want to move the discussion out-of-channel? 00:14:22 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-173-37.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:16:26 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:18:59 yan_: How are the others in here suppose to learn anything new then? 00:19:03 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:19:41 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 00:20:38 beach: i kept everything problem-related in the channel and anything of use to anyone else. i pm'ed to just explain what problem domain i was coming from and to thank nyef. 00:20:50 -!- sm` [~s@77.29.22.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:22:29 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:22:33 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-135-144.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:23:45 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:26:11 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.252.9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:03 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.38] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - 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http://linkinus.com] 02:21:20 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.38] has joined #lisp 02:22:55 Hnm. New sourceforge passwords required. I guess it's about time I changed mine anyway. 02:23:06 kraison [~kraison@c-67-170-49-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:20 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:27 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:33:25 StephenFalken [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 02:33:40 ... Oh dear. I'm not sure sourceforge even knows about my current email address, and I've no idea what my password might have been... 02:34:16 -!- kraison [~kraison@c-67-170-49-103.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kraison] 02:34:27 nyef: did you get an email from them on one of your accounts? they've been sending out messages 02:35:13 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5314.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:35:31 cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:36:29 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-109-161.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:53 nyef: you won't use the password to reset your password (: 02:37:11 nyef: they offer email recovery or the security question-based one 02:37:22 which might not help you either (: 02:37:31 -!- cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:38:36 email-based recovery seems to be flaky, I'm still waiting for that page to load (: 02:42:39 I got the page to load. Firefox decided to download recover.php. Which appeared to be empty. 02:44:20 Lovely. 02:44:28 zmv [~daniel@187.34.54.192] has joined #lisp 02:44:33 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:45:25 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:45:26 zmv_ [~daniel@187.34.54.192] has joined #lisp 02:47:10 So, I found my old password, at least. 02:47:21 phew :) 02:47:28 And the "lookup security question" button in the recovery page doesn't appear to do anything. 02:47:43 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47:58 Yeah, that did nothing for me either. 02:48:02 I may not have /set/ a security question, because they are typically stupid, and I don't lose passwords. 02:48:39 -!- zmv [~daniel@187.34.54.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:51:38 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 02:53:31 -!- tcleval [bb3a5ab6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.187.58.90.182] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:53:41 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:56:29 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.121.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:57:19 mudcake [~user@70.26.16.19] has joined #lisp 02:59:18 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:50 -!- zmv_ is now known as zmv 03:01:58 -!- mudcake [~user@70.26.16.19] has left #lisp 03:05:49 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:04 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 03:09:11 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 03:09:17 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:09:30 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:07 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-28-158.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 03:14:12 -!- leo2007 [~leo@121.207.25.60] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.91.1] 03:18:00 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:23:52 Anyone have any opinions on Paradigms of AI Prog. vs AI: a Modern Approach? 03:24:41 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-165-18.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:29:00 adamvh: PAIP is an excellent book about programming in Common Lisp. 03:29:19 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-172-23.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:29:50 beach: Have you read AIMA? 03:30:01 adamvh: No. 03:30:28 beach: But you didn't find PAIP dated? 03:30:37 That's sort of my worry 03:30:58 They are two different books for two different purposes. 03:31:22 nyef: can you elaborate a bit? 03:31:46 adamvh: PAIP is definitely not dated, because the Common Lisp standard hasn't changed, and the programming style is great. 03:31:49 PAIP is more about how to program, and think about programming, using rewrites of classical AI programs in Common Lisp as examples. 03:31:53 beach please dont PM me without asking 03:31:55 thanks bro 03:32:27 Cyd: Did I do that? It must have been by accident. Not that I know how that would be possible. 03:32:38 you didn't 03:32:42 but you look like someone who might 03:32:45 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-165-18.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:32:45 so, just incase 03:33:08 Well, PAIP seems pretty universally loved, so I suppose I might as well just dive into it 03:33:12 AIMA is about intelligent agents, machine reasoning, certain aspects of the use of statistical methods, and so on. 03:33:46 nyef: Do you think AIMA is strong on the probabilistic front? 03:34:01 It's not overly strong, but there's an element of it. 03:34:19 (Also any recommendations on the topic of statistical decision making are welcome) 03:34:48 My advice, FWIW, is to hit up your local library and see if they can get copies via interlibrary loan. There's nothing like having a book for two weeks or so to help you make a decision about getting it or not. 03:35:46 beach: Umm... PAIP was '92. The standard -did- change since then. :-P 03:36:38 nyef: Hmm. I haven't detected anything in PAIP that is different though. 03:36:39 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:37:00 There are a couple of CLtL1isms, but nothing really horrible. 03:37:13 Cyd: Is this supposed to be a joke? Not a good one if so. 03:39:14 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.62] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 03:40:42 beach: Also, PAIP is from back in the days when people thought using SETQ on an undefined variable was a reasonable thing to do. 03:43:56 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:28 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx64-2a-232.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:46:14 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 03:47:32 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-134.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:54:57 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-148-200.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:00:01 srijan4 [~srijan4@202.78.175.199] has joined #lisp 04:01:34 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:02:47 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-99-104-105-38.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:05 -!- ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:03:38 ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:03 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:13:28 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13:48 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:14:29 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:29 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:59 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:17:25 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:28 sglinux [~sglinux@cm226.sigma110.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:21:28 xan_ [~xan@169.Red-83-52-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:15 -!- mega1 [~quassel@2001:470:1f05:548:215:58ff:fe7d:773b] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:28:15 -!- jimmy1980 [~jimmy@60.212.74.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:34:51 jimmy1980 [~jimmy@60.212.74.186] has joined #lisp 04:35:53 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 04:40:53 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-109-161.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:41:05 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-109-161.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:33 So the conversion of series cvs to git went ok. But the branches didn't seem to get copied. Or at least the log doesn't show the branches. Maybe I'm not using git correctly. 04:48:20 -!- xan_ [~xan@169.Red-83-52-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:50:52 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@61.50.131.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:50:57 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:32 evening 04:53:46 hello slyrus 04:54:20 leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:02 hey beach, how are things in vietnam? 04:55:23 slyrus: Fine thanks! Life here is good. 04:55:44 slyrus: I recently got back into working on SICL. This time collaborating with mvilleneuve on LOOP. 04:56:10 slyrus: What about you? Still doing *real* work? 04:56:38 glad to hear it! I'm hoping that you can finish up SICL so you can get started on moving it towards CLtL3 :) 04:56:51 Yeah, with a bit of hacking thrown in here and there 04:56:57 slyrus: Yes, and then Climacs, Gsharp, etc. 04:57:10 CLIM3 :) 04:57:15 is asdf a backronym? 04:57:35 tcr's named-readtables kept me busy for a few hours this week 04:57:53 slyrus: What did you do with them? 04:58:20 and still making progress on bringing my chemicl (CL) library up to par with chemiclj (my clojure version of chemicl, which had actually leaped ahead in some regards) 04:59:00 some simple readers for hashtable literals and for molecules (or their SMILES strings anyway) 04:59:33 #{CC(O)C} as a literal for acetone is much nicer than (read-smiles-string "CC(O)C"), e.g. 05:00:01 slyrus: Nice, yes. 05:00:53 oh, and the requisite time learning more details of the library than I cared to know in order to fix the bug that made it unusable from the get-go :) 05:02:17 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:03:15 -!- kfr [void@haskell.prime.to] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:03:40 kuffaar [void@haskell.prime.to] has joined #lisp 05:05:01 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 05:09:59 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-99-104-105-38.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:13:07 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:29:33 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 05:30:18 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:39:28 leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:13 do i have a lithp? 05:56:09 mdaya [~mdaya@dsl-185-137-97.dynamic.wa.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:57:00 -!- mdaya is now known as laevus 05:57:46 -!- laevus [~mdaya@dsl-185-137-97.dynamic.wa.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 05:58:08 laevus [~mdaya@dsl-185-137-97.dynamic.wa.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:58:33 icbh [~icbh@ntszok033003.szok.nt.adsl.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:04:36 Is the ht-simple-ajax developer here by any chance? :) I can't find where to send a feature request. 06:05:21 It uses GET to end arguments but I may need to pass one or two kb of text with linefeeds which is a problem with current implementation. 06:05:26 *send 06:11:30 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-99-104-105-38.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:23 flyfish [~liuguangz@61.50.131.98] has joined #lisp 06:16:54 -!- sglinux [~sglinux@cm226.sigma110.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:21:39 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-99-104-105-38.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:30:01 sglinux [~sglinux@cm18.sigma111.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 06:37:22 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-216-111.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:39:51 i'm using slime w/ Aquamacs and when my minibuffer receives focus or gets updated it jumps from 1 line tall to 2 and jars the existing window layout and causes a re-layout of all the windows.. is this a symptom of misconfiguration 06:40:19 ('?' at the end of prev. msg) 06:40:51 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-99-104-105-38.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:11 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:50:30 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:00:10 -!- laevus [~mdaya@dsl-185-137-97.dynamic.wa.co.za] has quit [Quit: laevus] 07:02:45 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-99-104-105-38.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:02:46 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:03:10 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:15:06 laevus [~mdaya@dsl-185-137-97.dynamic.wa.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:23:02 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 07:23:03 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:24:59 jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-138.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:26:31 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 07:27:02 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:11 -!- laevus [~mdaya@dsl-185-137-97.dynamic.wa.co.za] has quit [Quit: laevus] 07:38:02 Having trouble searching for it if it exists. . . has anyone coded a working Scheme-in-common-lisp? 07:41:35 hdurer_ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:12 -!- HDurer_home [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:50:47 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA31D1D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:52:09 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 07:57:10 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 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[~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-134.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:59:55 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-177-159.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:56 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 12:00:55 Modius: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/scheme/impl/pseudo/0.html 12:01:25 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:02:02 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:03:10 Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:07:14 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-109-161.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:07:22 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:07:49 -!- prip_ [~foo@host1-128-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:12:15 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:56 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] 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by peer] 13:15:33 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 13:27:54 what's wrong if i'm do (define (mcall (num . subnum) name . operands)) and when call it by (mcall (10 9) "sys_exit" 'INTEGER) ? 13:29:07 xvilka: ask #scheme. 13:29:59 oh, right :) 13:31:44 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 13:34:49 wruthw4lk [~wruthw4lk@117.206.7.20] has joined #lisp 13:35:29 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:58 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:36:17 what is keybinding to look up cltl2 from slime? 13:39:52 wruthw4lk: I don't know, I use my own one. 13:40:03 Is emacs TOO customizable? 13:40:12 wruthw4lk: try: C-h m 13:41:12 C-c -d h for hyperspec right? but couldnt find the one for cltl2.. kinda new here.. 13:41:35 pjb: most great text editors are 13:41:41 Perhaps it's not defined, or perhaps in a different version? 13:41:57 (and I was thinking only about clhs) 13:44:42 well..it seems its not defined..any idea on how to define it?? 13:47:20 wruthw4lk: you could check how C-c d h is defined, and duplicate it for cltl2. 13:47:29 C-h k C-c d h 13:47:37 click on the link. 13:48:13 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:48:34 cltl2 isn't standard, why would you want to look up it from slime? 13:49:05 cltl2 is pedagogical. If the caveat is understood, it might be good to have it at hand. 13:49:42 its more simpler i guess ,i mean it wouldnt hurt to have it right? 13:50:39 wruthw4lk: there are differences between cltl2 and the standardized Common Lisp. If you are not aware of these differences, it could hurt. 13:50:45 i don't think it has better description of symbols 13:55:06 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 13:56:47 -!- sellout [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:57:59 tank_eev [~vel@188.242.73.239] has joined #lisp 14:00:46 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.170.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:01:02 -!- fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-190-239-215.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:01:37 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 14:07:31 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.53] has joined #lisp 14:08:52 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 14:09:43 sellout__ [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:09 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:11:20 -!- sellout__ [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:58 sellout__ [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:01 -!- sellout__ [~Adium@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:17:20 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.88.67] has joined #lisp 14:18:51 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.243.185] has joined #lisp 14:19:04 sglinux [~sglinux@cm208.sigma110.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:20:00 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.12.200] has joined #lisp 14:20:37 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.88.67] has quit [Client Quit] 14:22:50 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.5.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:23:10 -!- Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:27:31 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.243.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:24 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:29:34 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:14 -!- SegFaultAX_ [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:30:46 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:57 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3362.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:26 -!- benny [~benny@i577A333F.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:38:30 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 14:39:03 silenius [~silenus@p4FC225C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:42 -!- rezna [~Miranda@188.175.119.2] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 14:41:32 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:25 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:44:42 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.147.92] has joined #lisp 14:45:13 sm` [s@77.28.115.199] has joined #lisp 14:45:34 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:47:49 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 14:48:26 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:21 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:52 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 14:51:20 -!- wruthw4lk [~wruthw4lk@117.206.7.20] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:57:22 benny [~benny@i577A774F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:05 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 14:59:03 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:00:22 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:01:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:38 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.147.92] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:04:29 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:34 Hello, I'm analyzing the runtime of a lisp program and i've jst stumbeled over a FIND call which looks for an integer in a list of integers (though this is not strictly defined via special operators). My question: what kind of an angorithm does clisp 2.44.1 use in FIND? (or: ehat is its worst-case running time)? 15:06:57 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 15:07:12 bad_alloc: FIND will be O(n) until we have telepathic computers 15:07:27 -!- sglinux [~sglinux@cm208.sigma110.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:31 or fine-grain parallel ones at least. 15:07:40 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-99-104-105-38.dsl.aus2tx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:02 pjb: hey it's lisp, you never may know x) 15:08:08 thanks btw 15:08:25 bad_alloc: if that's not satisfying, you may get O(log(n)) with a dichotomy, or O(1) with a hash-table. 15:11:01 pjb: the program is already written, I may only to analyze it for a paper at school. (and the guy who wrote it doesn't like criticism/improvement) 15:11:17 :-) 15:11:36 panike [~nwp@76.201.147.125] has joined #lisp 15:12:27 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:43 pjb: or O(1) with a bit vector, depending on the range of integers. 15:15:05 Yes, too. 15:15:33 That said, on modern hardware, arrays are not O(1) anymore (cache lines, virtual memory paging, etc). 15:15:50 pjb: very much O(1) still. 15:16:03 Quite. 15:16:57 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:17:26 laevus [~marc@dsl-185-137-97.dynamic.wa.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:18:17 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.147.92] has joined #lisp 15:19:34 maybe you meant to say that random access in arrays doesn't have unit cost anymore? 15:20:14 Yes. 15:21:29 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:21:46 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 15:21:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 15:21:46 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:22:59 pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:23:17 -!- jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has quit [Quit: Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5] 15:23:29 -!- loxs [~loxs@2002:4e5a:7cb3:0:224:d7ff:fe0a:73b4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:24:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:26 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-085-216-109-135.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:33:36 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 15:33:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 15:33:36 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:33:45 jamief [~user@158.223.51.80] has joined #lisp 15:34:54 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 15:35:15 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:35 the cost is bounded from above by a constant. It is, thus, O(1). 15:44:10 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:32 -!- spearalot [~spearalot@host-90-237-74-36.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:53:06 -!- laevus [~marc@dsl-185-137-97.dynamic.wa.co.za] has quit [Quit: laevus] 15:54:13 laevus [~marc@dsl-185-137-97.dynamic.wa.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:55:27 redline6` [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:37 -!- redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:55:51 catnap [~tommi@dsl-hkibrasgw3-fff2c000-81.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:59:57 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:57 -!- redline6` [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:01:48 What are the reasons that a file would compile and load fine, but would fail to load (compile OK) with one of the top-level forms commented out with a #+(or)? There are reader macros in that form, and I'm wondering if it's trying to read them. 16:02:05 -!- catnap [~tommi@dsl-hkibrasgw3-fff2c000-81.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:03:29 catnap [~tommi@dsl-hkibrasgw3-fff2c000-81.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:07:13 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:10:24 -!- catnap [~tommi@dsl-hkibrasgw3-fff2c000-81.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:10:31 catnap [~tommi@dsl-hkibrasgw3-fff2c000-81.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 16:10:40 -!- catnap [~tommi@dsl-hkibrasgw3-fff2c000-81.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 16:11:55 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:20 c|mell [~cmell@175.106.60.156] has joined #lisp 16:14:25 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:15:25 ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 16:20:28 urandom__ [~user@p548A6120.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:54 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:03 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:21:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:02 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 16:23:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 16:23:02 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:23:27 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:52 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:24:45 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 16:24:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 16:24:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:24:59 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:27:21 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:39 gz_ [~gz@173-101-168-9.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:07 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:07 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:01 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-148-200.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:15 G'morning all. 16:35:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:48 nyef: 'morning 16:35:52 or rather, 'afternoon 16:36:54 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 16:36:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 16:36:54 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:36:56 Still morning here, for slightly less than half an hour. 16:37:07 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:09 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 16:43:09 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 16:43:09 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:28 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:44:29 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:44:38 LiamH: #+ still needs to read the forms to know where they end 16:44:38 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:44:47 -!- gz_ [~gz@173-101-168-9.pools.spcsdns.net] has left #lisp 16:45:22 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 16:46:09 kpreid: Yeah, I know. But I'm trying to figure out how something it doesn't compile causes an error on load. 16:46:46 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:46:54 So it reads to the end, determines that this doesn't get compiled, yet something goes into the fasl that can't be loaded. 16:46:56 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-134.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:47:34 well, what's the error? 16:48:09 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:55 kpreid: but doesn't it read with *read-suppress* t? 16:50:17 kpreid: Well, that's the tricky part. It's an error deep in my own code; a function is being called incorrectly. I can' t find where that could be, and a backtrace shows the next frame as an internal SBCL function related to loading the file. I'm pretty sure the problem stems from my use of a reader macro which expands to an object (not an sexp). 16:50:23 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.12] has joined #lisp 16:51:04 stassats: yes, but it still has to do *something*: consider #+(or) (foo #\( bar) -- the macro for #\ has to be invoked to know that that ( isn't balancing a ) 16:51:14 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:51:19 -!- pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:51:39 It's really a side point, because everything loads and runs fine without the #+(or). But I have a small concern I'm defining something incorrectly which may bite me later. 16:51:50 LiamH: ... dare I ask? 16:52:13 nyef: dare you ask? 16:52:25 What are you doing, and what's going wrong? 16:52:38 ... and which internal function? 16:53:30 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-F612FBD4.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 16:54:18 *nyef* guesses the internal function is one of FOP-{EVAL,FUNCALL}{,-FOR-EFFECT}. 16:55:01 nyef: I temporarily commented a form out using #+(or). This makes the code compile but not load. The internal function is SB-IMPL::READ-MAYBE-NOTHING. 16:55:29 ... How odd. 16:55:53 Is this "not load" bit not loading the FASL, or not loading the file itself (uncompiled)? 16:56:07 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:07 the fasl 16:56:31 davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:34 can the code be shown? 16:57:01 stassats: sure, but as I said, it's deep in a big body of code. 16:57:09 LiamH: could you paste the error with backtrace? 16:57:15 yes, hold on 16:57:36 ... Something is trying to READ at fasload time? 16:58:02 anyone know articles/examples how to implement debugger features in lisp interpreter? 16:58:10 ...let's see the definition and use of the reader macro too 16:59:02 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-687134D5.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 16:59:19 gz_ [~gz@173-101-168-9.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:25 -!- gz_ [~gz@173-101-168-9.pools.spcsdns.net] has left #lisp 17:00:50 LiamH pasted "#+(or) form errors on load" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119168 17:01:17 Oh wow, the automatic paste message is back. 17:01:42 LiamH: Yup. Just had to talk an interested channel op into un-devoicing the bot. 17:01:46 kpreid: OK, coming up. 17:02:03 pjb: ping 17:02:29 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:02:40 LiamH: ok, from the backtrace, note that it's compiling, not loading, the file physical-quantities.lisp, so this doesn't seem to be a weird-effect-at-load-time issue 17:02:46 LiamH annotated #119168 "The #_ read macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119168#1 17:02:52 jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:15 And of GRID::MAKE-GRID-DATA for (EQL 'GRID:FOREIGN-ARRAY)? 17:03:21 kpreid: OK, my misinterpretation. 17:04:05 what pkhuong said. 17:04:06 Yeah, looks like it's something bogus in that MAKE-GRID-DATA method. 17:04:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-145-178.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:04:48 a question is how it is getting called from the reader. 17:05:06 A tail call in make-pq, I suppose. 17:05:09 nyef: bogus? what should I look for. I'd post like pkhuong asked for, but I think it's easier if I chase the rabbit down the hole. 17:05:18 right, but we have (unless *read-suppress* ...) there 17:05:28 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC225C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:20 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:53 javuchi [~noname@212.166.237.2] has joined #lisp 17:07:32 LiamH: Why is it trying to MAKE-INSTANCE a class called 0 ? 17:08:29 -!- ignas [~ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:08:40 LiamH annotated #119168 "make-grid-data" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119168#2 17:09:21 LiamH: DATA-CLASS-NAME is returning 0. Why? 17:09:33 nyef: I don't know. 17:09:36 my hypothesis is that somewhere in here we have a reader macro which reads sub-values and calculates with them, but they're bad because of *read-suppress* 17:10:48 Ah, so ELEMENT-TYPE is possibly NIL, and the same with DIMENSIONS, making the length zero? 17:11:10 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-145-178.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:11:12 akkartik_ [~akkartik@akkartik.name] has joined #lisp 17:11:15 Put a TRACE on DATA-CLASS-NAME and watch for the last call before it blows up? 17:11:56 nyef: what line number is showing a make-instance on 0? 17:12:05 I just found out that boundp doesn't work for lexical bindings. Anybody know if there's a way to check if a var has a lexical binding? 17:12:20 nyef: OK, I'll put a trace on. 17:12:38 akkartik_: that doesn't really make sense. What are you trying to do? 17:12:41 akkartik_: if you have to test that, you're probably doing something else wrong 17:13:41 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:13:53 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-246-208.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:13:59 LiamH: The error message for NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD includes the complete arglist, the first parameter of which (the class name) is zero. 17:14:01 I'm trying to implement arc as a set of common lisp macros. And arc has a function called bound. 17:14:50 akkartik_: You'll need to write a reader. 17:14:58 How do I trace a function prior to getting the error, when the error comes from loading the system? 17:14:59 Or reuse one. 17:15:32 LiamH: load the file that has the definition 17:15:40 is arc dynamically scoped? 17:15:47 prxq: nope 17:15:52 LiamH: you can tell asdf to load a specific file component, then load the rest of the system 17:15:59 prxq: Given that it's scheme in drag, I'd expect not. 17:16:03 (in between, apply the trace) 17:16:03 kpreid: OK 17:16:04 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 17:16:10 OR, just write (trace foo) at the end of the file where foo is defined 17:16:14 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-246-208.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:16:24 akkartik_: and it's a *function*? 17:16:42 nyef: lol. It seems to be just a lisp-1 common lisp. 17:16:46 akkartik: one way to do that might be to do something to the variable and have an ignore-errors around it + logic 17:16:52 pkhuong: it's actually not entirely crazy -- if you use lexical scope for your toplevel 17:17:20 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BEE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:21 kpreid: what does it mean, if it's a function? Does it inspect its caller's scope? 17:17:24 pkhuong: yes 17:17:37 er, oh, right, I retract my claim 17:17:41 (seriously, way to break the very idea of lexical scoping) 17:17:55 indeed 17:18:02 pkhuong: I don't follow. can you elaborate? 17:18:03 if it were (bound var (this-environment)) where t-e is a special form...yes 17:18:09 kpreid: right. 17:18:25 oh I see 17:18:32 *akkartik_* slaps head 17:19:07 it's implemented as a primitve, not at the arc level. It's a function in the sense that you need to quote syms to it. 17:19:43 akkartik_: it's a special form that evaluates all of its arguments. 17:19:49 right 17:19:53 mega1 [~quassel@adsl-63-195-37-158.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:04 djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:23 (let's argue about whether it's a function in the mathematical sense!) 17:20:35 I don't see how that could be used, but, ok. 17:20:49 (is there also a lexical-symbol-value?) 17:21:24 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:37 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:21:51 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: I'll see you on the dark side of the moon] 17:21:52 holy crap, I take it back. arc's bound doesn't work on lexicals either.. 17:22:00 sorry to waste y'all's time 17:22:50 LiamH: While we're at it, MAKE-GRID-DATA calls ALEXANDRIA::SANS to strip the :ELEMENT-TYPE and :DIMENSIONS keywords from the parameter list "to insure of non-redundancy". Leaving aside the insure/ensure thing, why is redundancy bad here? 17:23:21 LiamH: When parsing keyword arguments, and a keyword is specified twice, the leftmost argument wins, for precisely this kind of scenario. 17:23:30 nyef: OK 17:23:40 didn't know that 17:23:41 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:24:32 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:12 (And might I say that "sans" is a spectacularly bad name for a function?) 17:25:27 nyef: agreed, not my choice. 17:25:45 I posted a bug about it being non-exported. 17:26:04 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:26:20 LiamH: there might be some association between its internal-ness and the quality of the name. 17:26:25 use remove-from-plist instead? 17:26:28 Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:26:40 pkhuong: It was listed in the manual. 17:27:35 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:27:38 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 17:28:44 stassats: page 3 of http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/draft/alexandria.pdf has alexandria:sans, but it's not exported. I don't see a remove-from-plist. 17:29:07 oh well. back to using my knapsack solver to build a solver to build something else ... (if only when my research projects nested, it were in tail position) 17:29:18 LiamH: i'm not looking at documentation 17:29:38 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3247672165664225@naggum.no.html is the original, I think. 17:30:35 LiamH: I try to follow documentation; if something doesn't work, I file a bug report (which may be interpreted as a bug in the documentation). 17:30:41 Heh. So, I hit the link Xach just posted, saw the topic, and parsed it as "macros, &REST, and Rear Echelon..." Well, you get the idea. 17:30:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-145-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:31:17 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:31:36 Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:35:24 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:35 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:40:16 -!- akkartik_ [~akkartik@akkartik.name] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:40:44 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 17:40:50 lirt [~user@94.51.31.148] has joined #lisp 17:41:13 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:48 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:42:36 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:11 nyef: the comment is bogus aside from the grammar; the keywords are stripped out because they are not acceptable for the relevant make-instance. 17:45:41 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:46:07 LiamH: Try again: the keywords are specified as fixed arguments to make-instance in that call. 17:46:10 -!- mega1 [~quassel@adsl-63-195-37-158.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:46:43 oops, you're right, I got it backwards 17:47:14 Xach: something I've been curious about for a while. What keybinding behavior did you use to inform your naggum archive? 17:47:15 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:37 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:50:07 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 17:56:14 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:56:37 I actually used the variable-evaluating-to-keyword behaviour in a function call once for profit 17:56:58 mon_key: I don't think keybinding was involved at all. 17:57:00 Always thought it to be totally arcane but it did come in handy :-) 17:59:10 Does sbcl do something clever to fixed keyword argument in a function call? 18:00:13 mon_key: i'm not exactly sure what you mean, though. how do you picture keybindings being involved? 18:00:19 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.229.63] has joined #lisp 18:00:43 the web frontend has some ajax magic, doesn't it? 18:01:06 I'd guess he's talking of that :-) 18:01:15 Xach: e.g. "keyboard shortcuts" at http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/index.html 18:02:04 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:03:01 tcr1: for inline functions, sure. 18:03:23 good point 18:03:24 Xach: Sometimes they step on conkeror's toes. Would be nice to hava an option to disable them :) 18:03:37 I actually relied on that a couple of times 18:03:39 I sometimes like to split the argument processing and computation in two functions. 18:03:48 like what? 18:03:50 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-145-232.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:04:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-20.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:04:55 Have a nice keyword/optional argument ful interface, and call out to an (or one of many) internal function with only fixed arguments. 18:05:22 Well yeah I kind of that too sometimes, though usually the other one takes not literally all the same arguments. 18:05:50 foo with lots of &keys which then calls foo-1 with processed / coalesced / normalized arguments 18:05:56 right. 18:06:43 anyone know articles/examples how to implement debugger features in lisp interpreter? 18:06:50 I like the foo-1 convention though it doesn't make any sense to me. Why 1?? 18:07:02 counting from 0 or what? 18:08:50 xvilka: it seems no. 18:09:29 t 18:09:31 xvilka: Examples are childishly easy to obtain: Find an existing lisp system with a debugger, and you have an example. 18:10:02 For articles, try using google or something. Coming up with search terms shouldn't be too hard. 18:10:10 mon_key: ah, yes. hmm. 18:10:36 mega1 [~quassel@2001:470:1f05:548:215:58ff:fe7d:773b] has joined #lisp 18:10:59 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:06 How is stepping usually implemented? 18:11:18 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:12:02 -!- panike [~nwp@76.201.147.125] has left #lisp 18:12:22 Does the debugger actually intervene into each instruction's execution and decide whether to break or not? 18:13:12 I would find it surprising if something like gdb would actually recompile the code instrumented with the right nterrupts; what does it do? 18:14:26 Or is it, get the next N instruction into a buffer, add a break, go and pass that to the cpu? 18:16:55 ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:58 sglinux [~sglinux@cm208.sigma110.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 18:16:59 i dont know, but at least simple debug/tracer needed for embedded lisp. 18:17:14 and dont know even where from start 18:17:26 tcr1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_debug_register maybe? 18:17:30 *Xach* does not know 18:20:50 tcr1: you can execute code in single-step mode. 18:20:54 cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:27 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:12 -!- laevus [~marc@dsl-185-137-97.dynamic.wa.co.za] has quit [Quit: laevus] 18:23:23 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-F612FBD4.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: gz] 18:24:06 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:24:30 SBCL typically adds some instrumentation to code compiled with high DEBUG, specifically to support stepping, but there's probably vestigial support for breakpoint-based stepping as well. 18:24:54 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:18 nyef: which lisp implementation will be easy to understand from debugging point of view? 18:26:37 That I couldn't tell you. 18:28:16 In an interpreter, though, thins are somewhat simpler. 18:28:43 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-50-247.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 18:29:29 Right, in an interpreter you can hook EVAL or APPLY or whatever. 18:29:51 It's compiled code where the complexity settles in. 18:33:59 lodger [~paulo@186.213.61.224] has joined #lisp 18:34:05 sellout__ [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:08 -!- sellout__ [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:08 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 18:35:45 -!- sglinux [~sglinux@cm208.sigma110.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:36:27 might be nice to actually do that in sbcl someday 18:36:48 Which, an interpreter-based stepper, or use breakpoints for stepping? 18:37:00 an interpreter that doesn't suck for debugging 18:37:03 nyef: well, if you know the hook ahead of time, you can also (reasonably) hook into apply for compiled code ;) 18:37:04 Ah. 18:37:30 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:40:48 ... Some perverse part of me is trying to suggest that we could write an interpreter that operates on IR1-converted or IR2-converted code. 18:41:08 nyef: somewhat like CMUCL's interpreter? 18:41:16 Yeah, exactly. 18:41:49 Safer not to go there, though, I think. 18:41:56 I really would like a representation for IR1 that can survive compile, actually. 18:42:15 Thuntap [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/thuntap] has joined #lisp 18:42:32 As it is, I'm pretty sure that trying to reuse IR1 is a recipe for unexplainable disaster ;) 18:42:59 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:44:34 I'm beginning to suspect that IR1 is an unexplainable disaster to begin with. 18:47:58 sglinux [~sglinux@cm136.delta176.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 18:48:11 lovecraft would say "undescribable", goldman would say "inconceivable", but I for one am sure there is an explanation! 18:51:20 "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."? 18:51:41 Okay, how about "irredeemable"? 18:52:08 I don't know that everything can be explained about IR1. 18:52:34 -!- StephenFalken [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:53:17 Mmm... Just looking at what happens pre-IR1-PHASES makes my head hurt. 18:54:29 And it looks like the DFO phase has less to do with computing a DFO and more with making sure that the components, lambdas, and blocks are all consistent? 18:54:33 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-16-138.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:55:17 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:55:35 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:56:13 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:56:18 they say large parts of cmucl may have been worked on by students 18:56:41 Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:57:14 the student being rob maclachan? 18:58:58 -!- algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: algal] 18:59:14 *stassats* is waiting for carbon-fibre credit-union common lisp 18:59:23 no, actual students, as assignments or course projects or whatever. but I don't even remember where I "know" that from, so take it with a small measure of a spice of your choice 18:59:23 -!- javuchi [~noname@212.166.237.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:00:36 jlpeters [~james@dsl231-034-006.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:25 -!- davazp [~user@15.Red-83-57-38.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:45 -!- jlpeters [~james@dsl231-034-006.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:02:59 -!- lodger [~paulo@186.213.61.224] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:20 stassats: CFCUCL? Why wait? Start hacking! 19:03:37 javuchi [~noname@212.166.237.2] has joined #lisp 19:04:39 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:05:00 Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:10:28 nyef: i'd prefer that somebody else wrote it 19:12:24 Xach: A common idiom for me when visiting Naggum archive is to find a relevant message then to type enter "c" (copy select link) at the conkeror minibuffer to grab the GG URL followed by "C-u g" (find url in new buffer) to open the GG URL in a new buffer in order to read the Naggum message in threaded context. 19:12:31 Xach: The reason I like to leave an existing Xach Naggum Archive buffer open as well is b/c I often find that after having read Naggum in context of the GG thread I can then return to your index with a better ideas as to which other immediately related Naggum messages are relevant. 19:12:37 Xach: Something I've noticed is that Naggum would inform when the issue had been already been visited. I've found this to be an indicator for what I should search next when attempting to understand the issue at hand. 19:12:42 Xach: So, for example in the link you posted here earler e.g. "Re: macros, &REST and REMF" here http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3247672165664225@naggum.no.html Naggum says: "The issue of ownership of the argument list, which has been answered many times over and which does not change just because of some particular operator," 19:12:49 Xach: Well, maybe it had been answered many times, but it I want to see Naggums answer. Finding that answer w/ GG is gonna be a headache. Using your archive I was eventually able to zero in on a second instance of Naggum's position wrt the subject here: 19:12:55 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/search?q=%26key&sort=of&page=2 19:12:55 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3242630491889838@naggum.no.html 19:13:00 Xach: However, in the process of finding the above i had to search a few different terms, and along the way nearly got lost reading some other interesting albeit non-related threads. Having access and maintaining search history in a single conkeror tab while in the process of zeroing in on what Naggum was referencing would have been handy. In any event, that is my particular usage pattern :) 19:13:34 -!- zmv [~daniel@187.34.54.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13:40 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:13:43 i envy your typing skills 19:14:54 -!- cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:15:04 Cyd [~zinc@unaffiliated/cydd] has joined #lisp 19:15:19 -!- algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 19:16:54 leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:14 -!- sglinux [~sglinux@cm136.delta176.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:20:24 and your healthy appetite for Naggum's writings 19:22:48 does cffi:with-foreign-object guarantee zeroing of the memory? 19:23:32 attila_lendvai: no 19:24:18 fe[nl]ix: I almost thought that I've found the problem in with-c-environment... :) 19:24:56 fe[nl]ix: although, there's a hash-table-size call in allocate-env, which is probably the wrong thing 19:25:13 I found that too 19:25:16 should be -count 19:26:02 fe[nl]ix: does it mean that it still doesn't fix the run-program headaches? 19:26:21 (it's not pushed to the iolib repo) 19:26:26 carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.184] has joined #lisp 19:26:40 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:14 attila_lendvai: I think there's a bug in the C library 19:27:22 fsck 19:27:25 I'm trying to remember how to use gdb ATM 19:27:27 :D 19:27:58 these weird lisp people use libc in a weird way... :) 19:28:11 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:25 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:28:45 Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:28:50 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@135.114-84-212.staticip.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:29:08 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:09 sglinux [~sglinux@cm15.delta176.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 19:30:09 cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:51 sellout__ [~Adium@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:28 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:37 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 19:41:53 Is there a standard way to setf the documentation slot of an object defined with `define-condition'? 19:42:14 -!- sm` [s@77.28.115.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:42:35 -!- zickzackv [~zickzackv@g226062198.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:43:03 (SETF DOCUMENTATION), surely? 19:43:32 no such method 19:44:06 setf documentation has methods for standard-class and structure-class, but conditions are (standardly) neither 19:44:38 file that one in next-cl-standard... 19:44:49 I'm wanting to do this: 19:44:49 19:44:50 (setf (documentation ' ') #.(format nil "{...}")) 19:45:58 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:46:03 There's no reason to use #. here. 19:47:59 sm` [s@77.29.19.56] has joined #lisp 19:48:02 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 19:49:02 -!- cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:49:43 <_8david> so it's not portable. but which implementations fail to provide the needed methods? acl and sbcl wfm. 19:53:41 pjb OK. #. is a bad habit from left over from compiling formatted docstrings inside a containing form. 19:54:08 mon_key: regarding navigating the Naggum archive; one of conkeror's defining features is its hackability. write a page mode! 19:55:26 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:55:35 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:56:20 koning_robot: No doubt I should. And prob. will as soon as i learn javascript... 20:00:58 javascript as a language wasn't hard to learn, really. 20:01:02 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:01:08 cheez [~Adium@206-248-177-146.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:19 At least, not to the point of being able to do paying work in it. :-) 20:01:21 Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:02:48 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:02:48 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 20:03:21 leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:58 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:04:53 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:07:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:07:31 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66.243.225.8] has joined #lisp 20:12:15 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:17:10 nyef: even that point isn't very hard to reach (: 20:18:51 Indeed it isn't: I actually picked it up on the go. One reference manual, a help file or two, some existing code to draw from, and a half-decent spec. Really didn't take long. 20:19:14 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7560b7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:46 leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:19 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:53 legend has it they came up with the language in the course of one week. Including implementation. 20:23:21 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:24:04 Doesn't entirely surprise me. 20:24:06 *nyef* shudders. 20:25:29 yeah, Brendan was planning to fix it later, but he had to get something out the door. Then microsoft picked it up and implemented it almost bug-for-bug-compatibly (can't say I blame them), and then it was set in stone 20:26:56 timack [~tim@hlfx59-2a-238.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 20:27:14 -!- algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: algal] 20:27:18 http://brendaneich.com/2011/01/harmony-of-my-dreams/ this is what he's trying to work toward now 20:27:43 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:28:15 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:28:25 -!- algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 20:28:47 Will a function defined in a FLET shadow functions of the same name in functions that are called in the body of the FLET? 20:29:11 no 20:29:22 Wraithan: FLET is lexical, not dynamic binding, so not unless the functions called are also defined within the body of the FLET. 20:30:23 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:31:05 stassats, nyef: ah, thanks, it was a thought that came to mind when I was reading about FLET, I am still getting used to lexical scoping 20:35:54 Really? I find that it's dynamic scoping that trips me up. 20:36:21 (Though not so much these days.) 20:37:12 I've wondered why dynamically bound functions are explicitly ruled out by the spec 20:37:34 they are? 20:37:46 koning_robot: Well, you can just make a dynamic variable binding containing a function... 20:38:06 seangrov` [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:16 And then you could make a global function that calls the function in the dynamic variable. So it would be like a dynamically bound function in effect. 20:39:38 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:43 (let ((old-definition (fdefinition foo))) (unwind-protect (progn (setf (fdefinition foo) (lambda ()))) (setf (fdefinition foo) old-definition))) 20:40:23 although it's unspecified what happens to already compiled calls if the definition is changed during run-time 20:42:20 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.229.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:42:21 Yeah... To be honest, it was never anything I needed, I was just curious as to why it was "ruled out" as I said (I'm looking for the passage...) 20:45:12 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:46:30 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:48:11 -!- javuchi [~noname@212.166.237.2] has quit [Quit: Bye bye.] 20:48:25 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-109-161.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:31 kingless [~kingless@108-65-61-54.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:42 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:51:05 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:52:57 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 20:53:17 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:36 Hmm, I wasn't entirely correct, but "special declarations never apply to function bindings." according to http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm 20:55:26 koning_robot: have you looked in the cll archives? there is a good chance that this was discussed at some point. 20:56:08 I haven't; I will 20:57:04 koning_robot: Perhaps you meant this: 20:57:06 clhs function 20:57:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 20:57:16 "It is an error to use function on a function name that does not denote a function in the lexical environment in which the function form appears. Specifically, it is an error to use function on a symbol that denotes a macro or special form. An implementation may choose not to signal this error for performance reasons, but implementations are forbidden from defining the failure to signal an error as a useful behavior." 20:57:27 Wraithan: where have you been working with non-lexical bindings? 20:58:02 Ralith: python doesn't use purely lexical binding 20:58:07 O.o 20:58:09 what does it use? 20:58:26 it's own special rules, that piss me off on a regular basis 20:58:42 typical I suppose 20:58:47 mbalaban [~mbalaban@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:03 *nyef* is so glad that the python he deals with on a regular basis at least pretends to support common lisp. 21:00:04 My job is doing development and maitanence on a pretty giant python website 21:00:10 who controls print truncation when an arror is signalled? SBCL/swank or is there something in the standard? 21:00:25 Hexstream: no, the passage I quoted was the one I was looking for. I would consider your quote to implicitly (rather than explicitly) rule it out 21:00:54 Ah, ok. 21:01:20 clhs *print-level* 21:01:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_lev.htm 21:01:23 clhs *print-length* 21:01:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_lev.htm 21:01:55 Note that the error printing environment may involve rebinding one or both of those symbols. 21:02:15 (Sometimes there's an alist or similar for rebindings used in various environments.) 21:02:46 -!- lirt [~user@94.51.31.148] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:33 Hexstream: I'm not sure if those are in affect. AFAICT The spec says only that *print-escape* is bound around :report 21:05:34 Edward_ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-69-119.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:07:33 afat [afat@node-be0b984c.scarlet.an] has joined #lisp 21:08:00 Hi, what type of math do I need to learn to be able to program AI in Lisp? 21:08:47 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:05 afat: So-called "AI" is pretty wide. What do you want to do specifically? 21:09:07 Can u see that 21:09:08 afat: how about you start programming AI in Lisp then learn the math you need for your particular case along the way. 21:10:17 empt [~empt@221.181.131.63] has joined #lisp 21:10:20 Okay I guess I understand what u are saying here. 21:10:23 :) 21:13:17 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:22 Specifically this is what I'm finding problematic: 21:17:22 (error "Pathname ~S" *default-pathname-defaults*) 21:19:17 pjb pasted "mapconcat improvement" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119172 21:19:51 javuchi [~noname@212.166.237.2] has joined #lisp 21:20:04 mon_key: you were right. I modified it accordingly, and factorized out the processing in both cases. Not tested. 21:20:45 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:22:01 pjb: Cool! 21:25:07 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:27:51 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:29:03 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-147-7.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:11 ramus [~ramus@99.23.130.99] has joined #lisp 21:30:25 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:31:42 pjb annotated #119172 "test/mapconcat" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/119172#1 21:31:58 Now, tested. :-) 21:33:10 Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:33:41 gz_ [~gz@12.21.146.2] has joined #lisp 21:34:22 pjb: FWIW here is the original context by which i found that guy: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/2d71b553b62e20b5# 21:35:04 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:30 leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:03 -!- leifw [~leif@ool-18bac6ad.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:55 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:48:06 -!- kingless [~kingless@108-65-61-54.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:49:23 pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:49:31 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:49:40 -!- gz_ [~gz@12.21.146.2] has left #lisp 21:51:40 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:53:21 e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:02 Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:57:05 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58:17 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:59:40 -!- javuchi [~noname@212.166.237.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:00:09 *prxq* misses the helpful package conflict resolver in sbcl 22:00:53 javuchi [~noname@212.166.237.2] has joined #lisp 22:00:56 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:24 ... There's a helpful package conflict resolver in SBCL? Or are you saying that you used one elsewhere and would like it in SBCL? 22:02:42 -!- e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:02:52 there was one once upon a time 22:03:04 in sbcl 22:03:28 now I have a symbol conflict with a package that I have deleted. 22:03:43 i guess this is broken 22:04:20 hm - crap in stale fasls 22:06:04 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-60-20.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:35 but back to the conflict resolver: that was removed for thread-safety reasons, and is gone for about a year now. 22:06:58 Ahh. 22:09:00 such a conflict resolver is very useful, because these problems are a hassle to resolve by hand. it may include deleting stale fasls. 22:09:15 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 22:09:22 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Client Quit] 22:11:07 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:13 brodo [~brodo@p5B0245EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:58 Is it something that could reasonably be done by a "smart" environment? 22:13:42 vokoda [~user@host109-153-36-109.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:42 -!- vokoda [~user@host109-153-36-109.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:13:42 vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 22:14:54 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:16:01 nyef: you mean by slime? Maybe. 22:17:03 it is probably easier if the implementation itself does it, as it know what is happening. 22:17:32 it is probably easy to write such a handler oneself, or use the non-thread safe one that was used for a long time. 22:18:23 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 22:18:48 -!- sellout__ is now known as sellout 22:21:50 -!- kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:28 -!- Thuntap [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/thuntap] has quit [] 22:29:31 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:34:05 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3362.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:36:24 -!- pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:37:43 wanderingelf [4817e03d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.61] has joined #lisp 22:37:45 pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:48:36 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:49:07 kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has joined #lisp 22:49:47 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:50:21 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 22:50:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 22:50:21 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:51:06 Good morning everyone! 22:51:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:57 moin beach 22:52:03 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 22:52:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 22:52:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:58:55 -!- mascotte [~mascotte_@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-10-193.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 23:00:39 silenius [~silenus@p4FC225C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:46 hi beach 23:03:45 -!- javuchi [~noname@212.166.237.2] has quit [Quit: Bye bye.] 23:04:17 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:08:33 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-71-179-82-48.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:05 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host132-182-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:10:18 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-95-153.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:22 -!- mbalaban [~mbalaban@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:12:07 Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:16 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:10 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B0245EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 23:17:20 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:17:56 mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:05 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:20:48 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:22:15 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-177-159.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:23:07 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-199.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:23:53 xinming [~hyy@122.238.73.90] has joined #lisp 23:26:43 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-161-199.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:27:21 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.12.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:30:07 Landr [~vser@94-226-250-79.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 23:34:00 So, except for destructuring, there is nothing very hard about implementing LOOP that I can see. Am I missing something? 23:34:06 Any ECLers on here? Anyone around who's used it on IPhone? 23:35:18 Getting all combinations of clauses interact exactly as specified? 23:36:10 pjb: That seemed hard before I read the spec carefully :) I think it is still hard for the programmer to get it right, but not that hard for the implementer. 23:36:46 Well, we'll see when we compare with the other implementations. 23:37:02 and every implementation has it doesn't it? It's ancient CL 23:37:17 pjb: Indeed. 23:37:37 Lycurgus: Yes, and many implementations are buggy. 23:38:06 in odd corner cases I take it 23:38:56 to me it's in the low level nature of lisp to rely on the programmer 23:39:00 Lycurgus: Mostly accepting and defining the semantics of illegal syntax. 23:39:38 and allow her to crash the implementation 23:39:39 Lycurgus: A good implementation should help the programmer write conforming and portable code. 23:40:15 -!- mathguru123 [~mathguru1@c-24-11-171-16.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:40:32 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx59-2a-238.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:40:58 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:41:32 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:43:46 beach: clisp is stricter about loop than MIT loop, from what i can tell. it would be interesting to lint all loops with a strict loop that clearly explained the violation. 23:44:01 many projects don't work in clisp for unrelated reasons, so it's not always easy to just try it in clisp. 23:44:23 it would be interesting to patch e.g. sbcl's loop with a clisp-loop-alike 23:44:40 Xach: Yeah. 23:45:08 Xach: You'll have to wait for the release! :) 23:45:50 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-199-58.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:46:01 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl7-32-110.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: malbertife] 23:50:02 dmiles [~dmiles@66.243.225.8] has joined #lisp 23:50:51 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 23:51:19 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@66.243.225.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:56:13 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 23:59:06 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]