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I thought he did, but couldn't remember his nick. 01:38:15 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:39:20 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:35 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75467f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:23 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-75-42-224-167.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:19 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:49:42 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:53:40 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:20 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:54:55 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:00:54 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:01:26 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@186.212.61.33] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 02:03:00 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:02 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:05 psilord1 [~psilord@adsl-99-153-135-105.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:07 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@adsl-99-153-135-105.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 02:20:40 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:20 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:22:47 -!- alexshendi [~alexshend@dslb-178-002-229-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 02:23:00 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:23:28 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-66-150-112.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:23:35 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.127.144] has joined #lisp 02:26:10 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 02:27:55 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:09 rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 02:33:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:34:40 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 02:36:10 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:36:56 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:41:00 -!- bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:41:20 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:45:42 -!- mega1 [~quassel@2001:470:1f05:548:215:58ff:fe7d:773b] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:49:42 gko [~gko@111.82.63.139] has joined #lisp 02:51:03 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:11 named-readtables is pretty cool. 02:58:22 only in CMUCL? 02:58:42 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:59:21 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:00:07 What? 03:00:29 named-readtables 03:00:54 I'm using the named-readtables from cl.net. 03:01:28 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:45 i actually didn't catch the hyphen at first and thought it was a generic implementation feature 03:01:58 rather than a specific pkg 03:02:08 *rtoym* needs to send one fix for named-readtables to make it work with cmucl. Also need to figure out what %make-readtable-iterator is supposed to do. 03:02:21 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:19 rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 03:03:20 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.127.144] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:11:41 josh_ [~josh@ulsecure-belknap-31171.wireless.louisville.edu] has joined #lisp 03:14:23 do numbers in common lisp overflow? 03:14:36 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:14:54 josh_: in what way? 03:16:03 like in c where when you hit the max int value, it loops back around to the smallest negative int 03:16:20 No, that doesn't happen, normally. 03:16:24 better question: how does lisp handle excessively large values? 03:16:33 dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 03:16:59 Integer sizes are bounded pretty much by the amount of memory you have. 03:17:14 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 03:17:27 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.182.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:17:43 no bounds checking makes me sad :( 03:17:55 *k9quaint* shakes his cane! 03:18:03 back in my day sonny....! 03:20:02 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:08 -!- rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:20:55 -!- joe6 [~joe@c-24-126-150-146.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:21:50 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@adsl-75-42-224-167.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:21:51 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:22:53 hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.188.24] has joined #lisp 03:23:34 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:23:50 rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has joined #lisp 03:24:25 -!- rasterbar [~user@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Client Quit] 03:25:00 joe6 [~joe@c-24-126-150-146.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:16 -!- joe6 [~joe@c-24-126-150-146.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:30:46 *beach* is always surprised that people are willing to use a language where x+1>x is not necessarily true. 03:35:17 (< 1d300 (1+ 1d300)) 03:35:23 testsan [~testsan@p2049-ipbf7502marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:36:20 jsnell: Thanks! I was thinking of integers, actually. But I get the point. 03:37:00 *beach* is always surprised that people are willing to use floats. :) 03:39:12 tmokros [~tmokros@ip68-106-151-191.cl.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:20 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:39:43 Doesn't gmp and mpfr use floats to implement fast bignums? 03:41:14 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 03:44:50 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:44:53 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-20-213.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:45:58 rtoym: I don't know, but there are quite a few research papers treating floating-point arithmetic as just another algebra, instead of as a bad approximation to reals. One such paper talks about using floating-point arithmetic for exact arbitrary-precision computations, but I can't remember whether it was for integers (bignums) or for floats. 03:47:02 I know arprec uses double-floats for arbitrary-precision floats. Can't remember if gmp/mpfr do. 03:50:50 rtoym: I don't think so. 03:50:55 At least not gmp. 03:51:22 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-16-192.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 03:55:10 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:54 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@99.184.77.173] has joined #lisp 03:56:27 (I think Bailey has a couple soft FP packages that use double floats, but they doesn't exactly yield arbitrary precision because of the restricted range of the exponent field) 03:57:17 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:58:19 -!- dnolen_ [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:59:06 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 03:59:46 pkhuong: ooo did someone say "arbitrary precision"? 04:00:01 that just happens to be my middle name! 04:00:28 a-rbitrary precision -du 04:00:54 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 04:01:17 pkhuong: Ok. I did look at arprec. I think the exponent part is a double-float, so there's 53-bits of exponent. Not completely arbitrary, but pretty big. 04:01:45 gumpa [~max@p5DE8EB4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:14 rtoym: big enough ;) ISTR some package that extends the double double trick to an arbitrarily long unevaluated sum. 04:04:05 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-16-192.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04:50 -!- gumpa_ [~max@p5DE8CC73.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:04:51 pkhuong: I think that might be arprec. I think each component is a double-float, but uses only 48(?) bits of the fraction. Or something like that. 04:06:36 rtoym: 52 bits represented, but that implies 2098 bits (theoretically speaking) 04:07:55 -!- Saturnation [~dsouth@71.169.186.90] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:08:03 -!- testsan [~testsan@p2049-ipbf7502marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 04:08:16 -!- sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:13:24 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:13:25 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-172-209.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:13:25 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:45 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 04:15:03 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:15:16 adu: How do you get 2098 bits out of 52? 04:16:19 rtoym: that's the whole point of floating point, to represent 2098 bits by choosing 52 of them that matter, and remembering where they are (exponent) 04:17:07 *rtoym* doesn't follow. 04:17:10 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 04:18:01 rtoym: basically to represent a double-precision floating point _without_ an exponent, i.e. as a fixed-point number you would need to have a S1024.1074 fixed-point type 04:18:28 1024 + 1074 = 2098 04:18:40 Oh. Ok. Now I follow you. 04:18:55 ok 04:19:45 But that comes from the fact that there are only 11 bits of exponent for a double-float. 04:19:52 yes 04:20:24 changing either the exponent-size or the significand-size would change the number of theoretical bits 04:20:50 which is completely different than significant bits 04:21:56 Are you assuming exponent-size + significand-size is a constant 64? Otherwise, I don't see how significand size comes into the picture. 04:22:18 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:22:29 1074 = 1024 + significand-size 04:22:33 well +- 2 04:23:03 Oh, right. Denormalized floats. Ok. 04:24:58 thanks, I actually understand it better now too :) 04:26:46 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 04:26:49 anyways, I've been implementing a Float512 type recently, so that's why I've been thinking about these things 04:27:29 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-169-4.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 04:28:13 IEEE754 doesn't really specify such bizarre types, but it does recommend a minimum exponent size via a formula, which translates to an exponent of 23 bits for Float512 04:28:17 -!- josh_ [~josh@ulsecure-belknap-31171.wireless.louisville.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:30:02 btw, Float512 has 8389094 theoretical bits :) 04:30:55 which is over a megabyte 04:32:25 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-8-249.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:38:09 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:52 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:42:22 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:27 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:52:54 astoon [~astoon@109.188.229.38] has joined #lisp 04:57:03 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:40 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F014.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:08:53 az [~az@p4FE4EACD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:45 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:13:21 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 05:14:33 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:14:36 redline6` [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:39 -!- redline6` [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:17:03 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:18:46 -!- ASau [~user@89-178-242-224.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:21:27 -!- rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 05:23:46 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:28:16 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:30:19 andares [~sgd5@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined #lisp 05:39:32 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:45 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:44:30 -!- andares [~sgd5@unaffiliated/jacco] has quit [Quit: andares] 05:53:15 testsan [~testsan@p2049-ipbf7502marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:54:03 i've just been reading this page: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/macros.html 05:54:21 where the first example of a macro is: (defmacro setq2 (v1 v2 e) (list 'progn (list 'setq v1 e) (list 'setq v2 e))) 05:54:33 which just setq's both v1 and v2 to e 05:55:07 then they say: "This is very close to the following function definition: (defun setq2F (v1 v2 e) (list 'progn (list 'setq v1 e) (list 'setq v2 e)))" 05:55:49 but in fact, isn't it completely equivalent to: "(defun setq2E (v1 v2 e) (eval (list 'progn (list 'setq v1 e) (list 'setq v2 e))))" ? 05:55:56 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:56:49 (all i did was just wrap the definition of setq2F in an eval.. 05:58:41 so is (defmacro foo (args) ) equivalent to (defun foo (args) (eval )) ? 05:59:22 -!- testsan [~testsan@p2049-ipbf7502marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 05:59:30 macros don't evaluate, they transform 05:59:35 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59:57 your latter definition is more like fexprs 06:00:06 hmm 06:00:41 -!- victor_lowther [~victor.lo@99.184.77.173] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:01:36 you need to distinguish macroexpansion from evaluation of its result 06:02:06 i guess i should just do more reading on this... 06:02:14 testsan [~testsan@p2049-ipbf7502marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:03:33 k04n [~k04n@69.198.190.21] has joined #lisp 06:05:44 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:06:34 -!- k04n [~k04n@69.198.190.21] has quit [Client Quit] 06:10:15 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:12:28 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 06:16:07 nostoi [~nostoi@2.Red-79-150-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:26 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.51.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:19:04 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.51.192] has joined #lisp 06:19:54 nilly [~nil@c-98-247-253-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:59 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.51.192] has quit [Client Quit] 06:28:02 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:28:25 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:28:44 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:21 -!- astoon [~astoon@109.188.229.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:35:27 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:40:39 _danb_ [~user@124-169-135-129.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:43:15 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-197.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:46:25 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@2.Red-79-150-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:52:32 so... i asked earlier why (apply #'and '(t t)) resulted in the error: "The function COMMON-LISP:AND is undefined." 06:52:42 and was told that it was because AND was not a function 06:52:50 pattern: that's right, it's a macro. 06:52:54 it seems APPLY will only work with functions 06:53:02 so i got a bit miffed about this 06:53:19 and came up with: (defmacro apply2 (fun &rest args) (cons (cadr fun) (cadar args))) 06:53:20 (apply #'every #'identity '(t t)) works, though 06:53:22 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:37 which can be used like this: (apply2 'and '(t t)) 06:53:43 -!- testsan [~testsan@p2049-ipbf7502marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 06:53:46 or even: (apply2 '+ '(1 2)) 06:53:53 um. 06:54:14 :( 06:54:42 well, it does what you did ask for, that's true (: 06:55:07 so what's wrong with it (other than being ugly) ? 06:56:10 it doesn't let you apply functions to values, only shapes its constant arguments into expressions. 06:56:28 (apply2 '+ some-list) ; will break, for example 06:56:38 ah 06:56:40 but (apply '+ some-list) ; will apply + to that list 06:56:56 back to the drawing board.. 06:57:05 thanks, antifuchs 06:57:34 try that every form above. EVERY, SOME, NOTANY and NOTEVERY are the functional equivalents of AND and OR 06:57:58 yeah, that every solution is great 06:58:18 cool (: 06:58:20 i was just trying to come up with a function like apply that didn't have the restriction that it could only be used with functions 06:58:29 yeah, hard to do 06:58:35 ...without using EVAL, I guess (: 06:58:36 antifuchs: and they eliminate the need for apply in this case 06:58:48 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 06:58:50 adeht: ah, yeah, you're right! 06:58:55 adeht: I forgot about that (: 07:01:05 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:01:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:01:05 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:09:11 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-169-14.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:39 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-162-254.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11:55 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-149-4.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:13:25 Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:14:39 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-rrroxcinpnjjfrdl] has joined #lisp 07:15:25 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:26:08 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:26:08 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:26:08 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:31:36 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:31:54 good morning 07:32:55 -!- nilly [~nil@c-98-247-253-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 07:36:44 flyfish [~liuguangz@61.50.131.98] has joined #lisp 07:37:25 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 07:41:26 hi, why no complete output (run-program "mpstat" :arguments '("1" "1") :output :terminal) 07:43:06 anybody can help? 07:43:09 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:43:27 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-45-221.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 07:45:15 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:45:58 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:55 evening 07:50:49 evening 07:51:03 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:51:06 but it's 9am here 07:51:07 ! 07:56:59 -!- l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:00:32 hello slyrus 08:00:36 hello mvilleneuve 08:00:47 hey beach, what's new? 08:00:54 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-16-192.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 08:02:54 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.6.152] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:02:57 slyrus: Good question. what mon_key did made me interested in a (perhaps CDRed) extended hierarchy of signals, with a description of where each one is signaled. But I won't have time to work on it. 08:03:06 slyrus: What about you? 08:04:26 still working on my SMILES parser for chemicl using ramarren's cl-parser-combinators 08:04:41 some cl-typesetting work for some internal reports today 08:04:55 Sounds good. 08:05:05 code cleanups for my smarkup and cl-bio packages, a little of this, a little of that 08:05:10 but mostly real work these days 08:05:45 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B024D67.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:50 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-149-4.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:08:33 xinming [~hyy@122.238.72.181] has joined #lisp 08:11:56 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-180-53.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:13:31 malbertife_ [~marcoalbe@bl11-45-221.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:13:31 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-45-221.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:13:32 -!- malbertife_ is now known as malbertife 08:14:06 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:14:39 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:14:57 an interesting extension to alexandria:once-only.. (symbol initform &key (ignorable nil) (type 't)) for spec 08:15:00 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-151.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:16:37 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-16-192.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:16:40 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 08:17:28 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-182-108.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:18:05 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:18:14 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 08:19:12 zickzackv [~zickzackv@port-92-198-30-142.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:23:11 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-wifatmfbisijiklh] has joined #lisp 08:24:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:27:07 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-wifatmfbisijiklh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30:02 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-owjmdarrnrljjnbb] has joined #lisp 08:30:08 -!- brodo_ [~brodo@p5B024D67.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo_] 08:34:44 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:36:03 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:05 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-78-211.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:41:53 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-101-228.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:55 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-45-221.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:43:37 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-45-221.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 08:45:29 check this http://paste.lisp.org/display/119046 08:46:10 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-45-221.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 08:46:42 adeht: why? 08:49:51 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:50:23 :type and :ignorable look like things the user can easily (and probably should) declare themselves in the body, as needed. unless I'm missing some subtlety here 08:51:17 beach: how can you otherwise declare the var in the expansion as, say, ignorable for its whole scope (without doing just that) 08:51:19 cmm: what's the context? 08:51:43 adeht: I am waiting for you to tell me why you think I should click on that URL. 08:52:27 beach: adeht's URL :) 08:52:33 beach: have you missed my preceding remark? 08:53:00 adeht: Is it related to once-only? 08:53:05 yes 08:53:13 adeht: You could have told us. 08:54:05 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 08:54:26 there was no conversation in between.. just the half an hour it took to implement this and some join/part spam 08:55:01 some people don't bother to filter the join/part spam 08:55:27 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-151.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:55:35 adeht: I'm probably just in a bad mood. 08:55:37 anyway, cmm.. how would you declare a once-only var as ignorable for instance? 08:55:43 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:55:43 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 08:56:15 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:51 adeht: ah, that's probably the subtlety I've missed (you cannot know the var's name) 08:59:48 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-186-151.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:01:00 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-16-192.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 09:01:24 er. except you can, so I again don't see what I've missed :) 09:01:32 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:01:33 cmm: you do "know" the var's name.. e.g., in (once-only (x) `(declare (ignorable ,x))) would work 09:01:59 the problem is, how would you declare it if you want some other form instead of the declare ;) 09:02:50 I give up? 09:04:39 if you do (once-only (x) `(locally (declare (ignorable ,x)) ...)) then you'll still end up with a warning if X is indeed not used 09:05:08 because it's not declared ignorable for its whole scope 09:06:00 mvilleneuve: around? 09:07:02 -!- adarnimrod [~nimrod@bzq-79-177-209-98.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:07:53 cmm: so I have (once-only ((x x :ignorable t)) ...) instead. if I didn't need to maintain backwards compatibility with alexandria, I would have the initform be specified with an initarg as well 09:09:04 beach: yes 09:11:24 mvilleneuve: I don't see anything particularly wrong with your loop code generation. 09:12:17 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@61.50.131.98] has left #lisp 09:12:44 mvilleneuve: I was considering using reduce for generate-bindings-and-body, but it is probably best to avoid constructs that might use loop itself for their implementation. 09:12:52 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 09:13:58 mvilleneuve: Also, after talking with pjb the other day, I am now convinced that the clauses should be parsed without consideration for what type of clause it is, and then further analysis should check the order. 09:14:24 mvilleneuve: That way, one will be able to give a better error message for clauses out of order. 09:16:53 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-16-192.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:30 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:20:57 flyfish [~liuguangz@61.50.131.98] has joined #lisp 09:22:41 -!- flyfish [~liuguangz@61.50.131.98] has left #lisp 09:23:02 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:24:25 beach: ah, that looks like a good idea 09:25:52 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:26:01 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:31:29 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:31:48 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:33:59 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 09:34:49 -!- gko [~gko@111.82.63.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:35:11 mvilleneuve: Do you think you will be working on loop again soon? 09:36:32 -!- koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:39:05 madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:45 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:40:07 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-140-105.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:19 clhs:defmacro 09:40:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmac.htm 09:41:27 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-169-14.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:42:21 ASau [~user@95-27-147-227.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 09:46:26 pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 09:47:29 snearch [~snearch@f053007087.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:47:30 i get http://paste.scsys.co.uk/84780 when trying to install lisp-on-lines-ucw 09:47:53 from quicklisp on clisp 09:48:08 is lisp-on-lines used by anybody here? 09:48:25 splittist [~John@18-59.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:48:29 morning 09:48:33 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75467f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:42 hello splittist 09:48:52 beach: probably next week, yes 09:49:25 mvilleneuve: OK, so if I do something before that, it won't ruin your work? 09:53:27 koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has joined #lisp 09:53:45 beach: not at all 09:54:05 mvilleneuve: OK, not sure I will, but just in case. 10:00:03 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:14 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:06:11 malbertife [~marcoalbe@gw-e-U-EdII.nat.fct.unl.pt] has joined #lisp 10:07:23 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-137.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:09:03 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E5EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:11 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:09:38 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 10:10:14 smka [~s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 10:11:27 fusss [~fusss@120.156.241.215] has joined #lisp 10:11:29 -!- sm` [~s@unaffiliated/stefanot] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:12:32 -!- H4ns [~user@p579F8CF0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:15:49 \list 10:17:31 friends, if anyone runs hunchentoot on win32 with a FOSS Lisp, please let me know 10:17:36 I have just about given up 10:18:45 I don't, but what seems to be the problem? 10:18:54 (I don't just the win32 part) 10:19:00 beach` [~user@116.118.5.160] has joined #lisp 10:19:15 fusss: you tried ccl? 10:19:17 -!- smka [~s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:19:19 -!- beach [~user@116.118.45.191] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:19:24 -!- beach` is now known as beach 10:21:24 tcr1: that's my preferred Lisp actually; yes, I have tried it 10:22:16 drdo: even with SSL disabled; hunchentoot boots with plenty of coughing and sneezing, and when finally up, it's unresponsive to hits 10:22:42 What's coughing and sneezing? 10:23:00 warnings, errors, restarts, etc. 10:23:13 I have worked exclusively in Lisp web apps for 14 months; all on hunchentoot, never got it working on Windows 10:23:34 Well, i probably can't help then 10:23:43 I haven't used it that extensively 10:23:50 And i haven't used windows in about a decade 10:24:36 sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 10:26:25 -!- gumpa [~max@p5DE8EB4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:28:34 WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 10:28:50 it works with latest CCL build 10:29:04 tcr1: any opinion on "improved" once-only in http://paste.lisp.org/display/119046 ? 10:29:16 I really willed that into life; hunchentoot on ccl/win32 10:29:41 adeht: is that the once-only from alexandria? 10:31:15 fusss: I started from alexandria's impl, but considerably modified it 10:32:20 I was looking at it earlier today 10:32:56 adeht: We use a modified one, too, which inserts ignorable declarations unconditionally 10:33:30 adeht: SCREAMER has similar functions, but not for Lisp's normal evaluation, but for restricting constraint satisfaction 10:33:34 adeht: But, really, once-only should shuffle declarations to the right places rather than adding an ad-hoc way for specifiying the same thing 10:34:59 adeht: Shuffling declarations is pretty easy using the parse-declarations library, I'd reckon. With quicklisp, dependencies might not be that big of a problem anymore in 2011 :-) 10:35:44 tcr1: I suppose certain form patterns could be shuffled, yes 10:36:03 form patterns? 10:36:17 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-16-192.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 10:38:31 tcr1: e.g., (once-only (x) `(let (...) (declare (ignorable ,x)) ...)) could be such a pattern.. or locally/let*/.. but in the general case I think it's harder, or maybe not even possible 10:39:39 I was thinking of (once-only (x) (declare (ignorable x)) ) maybe I should take a closer look at your paste 10:40:20 tcr1: heh.. I guess that is also an option, though it's a bit weird 10:40:28 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-16-192.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:41:42 well it would expand to two ignore declarations of X and the internal variable, I'd guess 10:42:23 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B479.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:30 hm does that make sense? I don't know :-) 10:42:38 my brain's occupied with something else 10:44:26 tcr1: I thought that once-only could treat those declarations specially and incorporate them into its expansion, but that they won't have any effect otherwise 10:44:40 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-16-192.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 10:45:10 yeah, it's what strikes me as idiomatic 10:45:39 I'm not really fond of the whole bound-declarations business, I think it's way too hard to get right. 10:45:45 but it's what's there :-) 10:49:43 Can someone help me contact Mr. C Barski? I'm sending mails since 4 weeks to lisperati but get no answer. 10:49:51 tcr1: anyway, I like that idea.. thanks 10:50:00 -!- madsenz [~madsenz@n11z181l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:50:46 -!- thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:51:51 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-197.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:52:24 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-197.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:54:27 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-197.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:54:50 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-197.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:54:57 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-150-108.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:58:50 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:59:12 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 10:59:49 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:02:46 -!- fusss [~fusss@120.156.241.215] has left #lisp 11:03:30 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-147-7.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:51 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.127.144] has joined #lisp 11:07:08 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:07:24 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.127.144] has quit [Client Quit] 11:07:53 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 11:08:14 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.127.144] has joined #lisp 11:10:44 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:12:22 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 11:13:11 RaceCondition [~erik@82.131.72.191.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 11:18:01 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 11:18:13 Joreji [~thomas@92-035.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:23:14 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-131-235.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:27:30 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-169-4.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35:34 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 11:36:02 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:38:15 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:53:43 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:111:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 11:56:03 digital-emotion [~none@94.245.156.33] has joined #lisp 12:05:18 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 12:06:06 postmodern is returning dates like this (:DATE-OF-TERMINATION . 255611203200) instead of a simple-date ... what did I fluff? 12:06:13 francogrex [d53d48ca@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.61.72.202] has joined #lisp 12:06:36 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.248.16] has joined #lisp 12:06:39 which library should i use to color the output which goes to the terminal? (so that i print out stuff in green and red) 12:07:25 hi guys! I'm trying to write web application on CL, I use hunchentoot as web server. I don't know what to do next. first, I can write client app and communicate with server via GET/POST request sending XML data pieces. second I can use html templates. third I can generate HTML via CL-WHO... which way is preferrable? which libraries to use? 12:08:38 digital-emotion: i use bare hunchentoot, yason and xhtmlgen. but i'm possibly the only one who does that :) 12:09:02 minion: curses 12:09:03 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``curses''. 12:09:39 pmurias: you may want to have a look at http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-ncurses/, but it seems to be stale. 12:10:42 <_8david> Or for direct control over the terminal without curses, use terminfo.lisp. 12:10:59 Hi, does lisp (sbcl) interact with the FPU for floating point arithmetics? 12:11:20 _8david: even better. digital-emotion, please disregard my pointer. 12:11:53 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:57 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:12:39 H4ns: thnx 12:12:43 digital-emotion: what sort of web application are you trying to write? 12:13:25 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 12:13:25 H4ns: also one question, is it easy to combine xhtmlgen with client side JS? 12:13:27 <_8david> right; if pmurias is really only after colors, I think that terminfo will indeed be an easy solution. Of course, the moment cursor movement and fancy redisplay are needed, it would take a lot of effort to implement curses-style capabilities on top of it. Going with curses could then be the easier route. 12:13:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:14:10 k9quaint: destop game, like chess 12:14:34 francogrex: What would it do otherwise? 12:14:37 digital-emotion: fwiw, parenscript is another library you may (or may not) find useful--it allows one to write JS in a constrained dialect of Lisp, and then generate the corresponding JS 12:15:02 digital-emotion: I've used it in my own web apps so that I can stick to one language for the app as much as possible...YMMV 12:15:03 _8david: i just want to print some colors 12:15:30 beach: I don't know (really) but when I disassemble a function with floating points I don't see the st stack used for example... 12:15:37 something like http://search.cpan.org/~rra/ANSIColor-3.00/ANSIColor.pm 12:16:40 francogrex: Modern processors have alternatives to the traditional stack-based floating-point unit. 12:17:10 hargettp: thnx, I will experiment with parenscript 12:17:24 :) 12:17:39 ok; maybe that explains the output that I cannot understand then (like _boxed_regions etc ...) 12:18:54 francogrex: Well, if all your function does is some elementary FP operation and returns the value of it, you are likely to see code that does boxing as well. 12:19:06 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:19:06 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:19:29 CL-WHO and HTML-TEMPLATE as I investigated are no longer supported. maybe someone know alternatives? 12:19:45 konr [~user@mamonas.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has joined #lisp 12:19:48 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:19:52 digital-emotion: what do you mean by "no longer supported"? 12:20:19 not supported know 12:20:36 last update/release was very long time ago 12:20:45 sorry for my ugly english 12:20:54 digital-emotion: this is because it does not have any significant bugs. 12:21:04 digital-emotion: they don't need updates, that's why 12:21:05 digital-emotion: if you find bugs, report them and they'll most likely be fixed. 12:21:27 digital-emotion: I like yaclml 12:21:28 CL-WHO and HTML-TEMPLATE are still maintained, and actively used 12:21:30 digital-emotion: https://github.com/hanshuebner/xhtmlgen is an alternative that has seen an update lately, but that comes without documentation. 12:22:25 ok, thnx 12:24:19 beach : yes it's just simple, but the output is confusing me with its complexity. http://paste.lisp.org/display/119050 12:24:55 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:25:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:25:52 how can i list all packages? 12:26:43 surprisingly, list-all-packagse 12:26:46 pmurias: To answer questions like that, go to the permuted index in the HyperSpec, and look under packge. 12:26:49 *list-all-packages 12:27:42 francogrex: It is allocating space. 12:28:14 beach: sorry, i only save packagep, should have used the search 12:29:41 Saturnation [~dsouth@64.223.106.73] has joined #lisp 12:30:02 -!- Saturnation [~dsouth@64.223.106.73] has quit [Client Quit] 12:30:29 Saturnation [~dsouth@64.223.106.73] has joined #lisp 12:32:11 ok. can extra declarations in the lisp code make the disassembled code shorter/clearer? 12:32:18 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:33:11 francogrex: If you return a float like that, there is going to be memory allocation. 12:34:54 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:57 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:36:35 fusss [~fusss@1.145.101.124] has joined #lisp 12:37:40 francogrex: Is this: http://paste.lisp.org/+2JUY/1 less confusing? 12:38:23 when i (use-package 'context-common-lisp) i get a name conflict with defmethod 12:38:28 how can i avoid that? 12:39:17 pmurias: What is context-common-lisp and which package are you in when you do that? 12:39:28 beach : great; yes for me it is much much clearer. Thanks :) 12:40:00 francogrex: No problem. 12:41:31 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.127.144] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:41:55 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:01 beach: i didn't change my package as far as i know 12:42:38 contextl-common-lisp is the package which i think i use to access stuff in contexl 12:44:45 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:44:46 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:45:25 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:46:10 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.98.227] has joined #lisp 12:47:04 beach: i have a tiny amount of lisp experience so i might be doing things horribly wrong 12:47:20 beach: the context library seems to use a custom CLOS 12:47:25 pdelgallego__ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:47:31 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:48:24 H4ns: For your hunchentoot/yason/xhtmlgen thingy, what's the query format from the web client? 12:50:24 what is #:foo? 12:50:40 a symbol without a package 12:50:45 named "FOO" 12:56:41 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-179-70.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:58:25 pmurias: the technical name for that is "an uninterned symbol". 12:58:40 *pmurias* starts to really hate contextl 12:59:20 "apparently uninterned" 12:59:30 why generating (x)html from CL code is better than using templating engines? 12:59:41 pmurias: are you in CL-USER? 12:59:57 pmurias: ContextL uses the MOP it didn't actually make it into the CL spec, but almost did. Closer-MOP tries to get all the CL implementations on par with MOP functionality. 13:00:23 pmurias: how are you trying to load it? 13:00:29 CL-USER is a package that already uses the COMMON-LISP package. You can't use both COMMON-LISP and CONTEXT-COMMON-LISP (the latter is meant to replace the former). 13:00:37 digital-emotion: depends on what you want to do. 13:00:55 fusss: how should i load it? 13:01:01 Contextl probably defines a CONTEXT-COMMON-LISP-USER package that is equivalent to CL-USER. 13:01:20 how should i use context-common-lisp-user? 13:01:22 pmurias: what happens if you do (asdf:load-system :contextl) ? 13:01:29 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01:34 pmurias: no, you should switch to it. 13:01:42 (with in-package) 13:02:11 pmurias: (defpackage :pmurias (:use :context-common-lisp-user)) (in-package :pmurias) 13:02:18 fusss: nope. 13:02:42 if I want to write app with a lot of JS and animations on canvas 13:02:53 If you define a package for your program, then that package should use CONTEXT-COMMON-LISP instead of COMMON-LISP. If you want to be in the equivalent of CL-USER, do (in-package "CONTEXT-COMMON-LISP-USER"). 13:02:54 he can just switch to it too (in-package :context-common-lisp-user) but usually create my own packages .. 13:03:14 fusss: c-c-l-user likely doesn't export many symbols. 13:03:26 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:57 pkhuong: I am looking at it; C-C-L-U is the CL-USER + Context stuff; good to use 13:04:11 fusss: no, good to in-package. 13:04:23 you never use CL-USER; you use CL. 13:04:53 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:05:31 digital-emotion: If you're comfy with programming in JS, templates will probably suit you better, if your preferred environment is lisp, you might use something like parenscript, don't you think? 13:05:44 i'm now using (in-package contextl-common-lisp) 13:06:04 is it ok? 13:06:24 pmurias: what pkhuong said 13:06:42 -!- francogrex [d53d48ca@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.61.72.202] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:07:08 pmurias: but you should be able to load it smoothly; it's one of the more forgiving libraries out there 13:07:22 yes, I agree with you. can you recommend any modern templating library on CL? 13:07:52 Nope, the one I use is 16+ years old. 13:08:08 pmurias: if you're able to load CLOSER-MOP easily, then contexl is trivial. Closer-mop will become a good friend of your once you get into MOP hacking 13:08:12 digital-emotion: on IRC, you should reply to someone by writing their nick followed by a colon. 13:08:30 @xach good point~ 13:08:47 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 13:08:50 ->fusss This! 13:08:56 Xach: ok =) 13:09:17 digital-emotion: most of the time you can type the first few chars and hit TAB 13:09:22 fusss: the stuff loads, but the code in the paper doesn't, am i loading it incorrectly or just using contextl wrongly? 13:09:26 probably you saw this: Linj now available under the MIT license. Really nice! 13:09:41 fusss, thnx 13:09:56 digital-emotion: Could you look at http://weitz.de/html-template/ and report back? 13:09:57 Hope this happens with the chestnut too 13:10:07 pmurias: oh boy. pcos went through a few phases hacking on this stuff; the paper might be older. Paste the code and I will test it 13:10:08 *Xach* has started getting patches for it, isn't sure he wants to take on that job 13:10:21 after (ql:quickload "contextl") the only package with a name starting with context is contextl-common-lisp 13:10:44 chrnybo, I saw that, but I'm not impressed 13:10:50 patches for Linj ? 13:11:12 to get it on othetr than sbcl I guess 13:11:32 francogrex: Bad guess. 13:11:48 to make it more java-y? 13:11:51 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-148-200.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:52 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 13:12:09 which guess. I guessed 2 times both wrong? 13:12:13 G'morning all. 13:12:22 g'day nyef 13:12:51 The tutorial doesn't run as-is and needs to import PI. 13:13:09 the last time I tried to download Linj from the internet archives; it only could get compiled fasl files for a certain old release of sbcl 13:13:38 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 13:14:02 francogrex: in case you haven't tried it recently, ABCL is up to snuff. Good stuff. 13:14:52 yes, abcl also of course is java-cl interactions 13:15:34 francogrex: ABCL is _freakishly_ good; did everything I wanted to do with Java, except boot on Android ;-) 13:17:39 pmurias: how is context-oriented programming these days anyway? 13:18:10 i'm slowing getting the examples to work 13:18:11 I got into it briefly about a year ago, but it was too confused; COP and AOP people were fighting over buzzwords 13:18:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-137.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:35 i have to make a presentation for uni about it 13:18:42 oh 13:19:01 but from what i searched on the web it didn't get anywhere 13:19:57 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-16-192.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:20:27 I needed to design the best architecture possible for service orchestration; we were mashing up 5 SOAP, XML-RPC and restful services plus some feeds. Huge decision tables on what to do, given all the possible states, responses errors and exceptions 13:21:57 if anyone needs to do this, I can save you weeks of R&D; go with SEDA, Matt Welsh's thesis has the gory details. Basically designed a virtual "document" consisting of all services reaching an agreement on a given parameters. I would store the document in a database and tick off each service on a flags table as it processed it. 13:23:53 so, instead of expecting all these services to make a decision over a datum on a whim, you let each process it independently, at its own time. Sorta like Unix pipes, but with persistence between every two processors. Handy. 13:24:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@92-035.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:24:31 13:25:46 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:27:57 fusss: someone recently made clojure output dalvik bytecode, I believe 13:28:40 and ECL and theoretically (blasted license!) clisp should be useful on Android 2.3 and later 13:28:58 vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 13:29:13 ... unfortunately, I bet, the split hw/api level updates will come sometime after 3.0, so I won't see it on my phone ;_; 13:29:34 p_l|backup: emitting dalvik is a waste of time, imo 13:29:50 before code against the NDK and ignore java altogether 13:30:09 p_l: Have you seen the android scripting environment? 13:30:30 It supports python, ruby, javascript, etc, etc. 13:30:33 I will probably go back to ABCL when I start work, but in the meanwhile, I use (:use :cl :lisbuilder-sdl) 13:30:56 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:31:43 LiamH: hey 13:31:50 Zhivago: yes, and it has to go through a JSON-RPC interface for that 13:31:53 hi fusss 13:31:56 LiamH: of gsll fame/notoriety? 13:32:11 fusss: yes 13:32:37 LiamH: thank you for the great work! are you still maintaining it? 13:32:45 is adding sb-threads to customize-target-features.lisp no longer the way to add threading to sbcl on OS X? I'm getting "debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR: Not supported in unithread builds." I double-checked and sb-threads is in *features* 13:33:10 fusss: I'm all for emitting Dalvik, cause a) it will work on all possible platforms b) NativeActivity and the reworked input layer that has faster native bindings are 2.3+. Which is less than 1% of the market and won't change fast 13:33:12 fusss: what's NDK? 13:33:19 p_l: Yeah, but that's just for special android stuff. 13:33:21 fusss: you're welcome; certainly maintaining, and in the process of expanding the scope (not released yet) 13:33:48 pmurias: Android's Native Development Kit (C/C++ stack -- not really, but humor them) 13:34:10 LiamH: excellent! it really is an asset to Lisp 13:34:24 LiamH: I might have a bug report for you as well 13:34:26 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 13:34:32 Zhivago: including the whole GUI. I'd simply like to work with android using a nicer language... given that LinJ is now opensauce, I guess I can try adding necessary generics support and some code to ease Android work 13:34:34 fusss: Thank you 13:34:43 fusss: OK, don 13:34:48 fusss: got contextl to work :) 13:34:53 Personally, I think the answer is to target javascript. 13:34:58 don't know how soon I can get to it, but reports are always welcome 13:35:12 With a little work javascript should be able to access the full java system. 13:35:37 Then you could do whatever you wanted via a webview or whatever. 13:36:01 heh 13:37:07 regarding JavaScript, I was thinking of adapting Android style of applications for my Lisp-only "RIA" framework. Which is doubly nice because Android was based on Web in that respect :D 13:38:14 LiamH: msg your email. it's build related. 1) "Class named GSLL::BASIS-SPLINE not found.". 2) there is some unknown C function which I will find out in a bit. 13:38:27 err, ignore the email bit; i can google it 13:38:45 pmurias: excellent :-) do a write up of your experiences 13:39:06 fusss: I don't think I've ever seen 1) before. 13:39:41 LiamH: I think I have "CONTINUED" my way past a few errors 13:39:53 I am on CCL, so some of the messages might not be familiar 13:40:07 at one point I was testing on CCL 13:40:17 shouldn't get errors, may fail a number of tests though 13:40:46 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-28-171.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:41:08 bloody hell, it sees you, that's why it's well behaving now. I was able to reproduce the "issue" until you got here, LiamH 13:41:46 fusss: software is like a puppy, it just needs to be trained 13:42:25 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:44:13 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:44:48 LiamH: my numeric computing is non-existent; would you recommend gsll for play with visualization? I use SDL (via lispbuilder for that) 13:45:56 fusss: I've thought about that (and so have others), and I don't have a good answer. I'm not familiar with SDL, but let me know if you make any progress. 13:46:07 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:12 fusss: but certainly I'd use GSLL as a base. 13:46:32 excellent 13:47:04 alright, time for a beer refill and a movie; good nite all 13:47:05 iwillig [~iwillig@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:08 -!- fusss [~fusss@1.145.101.124] has left #lisp 13:48:08 fusss: There was a project around called NLISP which was trying to integrate them, but it seems that domain has been given up to a parker. 13:50:09 http://www.cliki.net/NLISP is the description, but the domain is gone, all that's left is the sourceforge page http://sourceforge.net/projects/nlisp/. 13:50:48 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:17 Oops he's gone 13:51:33 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:52:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:02 is there a documentation format for lisp? like POD is for p5? 13:53:09 s/p5/Perl/ 13:53:30 pmurias: there are docstrings, and various projects oriented around generating documentation 13:53:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docstring#Lisp 13:53:54 but no single thing other than docstrings (which don't define formatting) 13:54:20 So there is nothing that builds hyperlinked documentation from that? like doxygen? 13:54:23 -!- digital-emotion [~none@94.245.156.33] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:55:20 pmurias: maybe you'll be interested in http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/ or similar projects (check out cliki) 13:55:44 flip214: there are few projects that do so. HTML-TEMPLATE is one of them (look at ediware docs to see the results), there are some projects that integrate org-mode as well 13:56:33 Saturnation_ [~dsouth@pool-64-222-91-88.burl.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:50 -!- Saturnation [~dsouth@64.223.106.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:56:55 flip214: there are several.. e.g., atdoc.. 13:57:55 ah yes, I see ... thanks, I'll take a look 13:57:55 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:28 Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:01:15 *stassats* loathes automatically generated documentation 14:02:30 urandom__ [~user@p548A2EF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:04 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:42 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:07:53 a CL question for a change: am i right to assume that "setf expanders" have their own namespace? 14:08:07 I think a simple docstring->reference tool is useful, but it doesn't serve as complete documentation, of course. I don't like doxygen-style littering in source code. 14:08:28 weren't setf expanders just curiously-named functions? 14:08:36 i.e., i may have a function named (setf foo) and a setf expander named foo? 14:08:37 no p_l 14:08:51 SBCL will issue a style warning 14:09:14 -!- _ism [~frinnn@i59F62554.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:09:15 hi 14:09:19 and work as i expect (e.g., they are in different namespaces) 14:09:59 jdz: the order of setf expansion is fully specified. It's still a bit misleading though. 14:10:30 -!- zickzackv [~zickzackv@port-92-198-30-142.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: home] 14:16:01 -!- Saturnation_ [~dsouth@pool-64-222-91-88.burl.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:18:20 victor_lowther [~victor.lo@99.184.77.173] has joined #lisp 14:20:48 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-owjmdarrnrljjnbb] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:20:55 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:21:00 jdz: indeed. CLOS accessors are implemented as two generic function, one named a and another (self a). 14:21:28 SBCL is anal retentive. 14:22:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:22:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:22:17 -!- dRbiG [drbig@insomniac.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:23:10 -!- pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:30:20 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E5EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:30:24 H4ns [~user@pD4B9E5EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:14 here's the code in question: http://paste.lisp.org/display/119052 14:31:27 pkhuong, pjb: for you especially :) 14:36:45 jdz: why? 14:37:08 Why do you have an expander that only serves to call a setf function? 14:38:15 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2B30.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:38:26 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:39:13 yes, a good question. 14:39:16 ttb [~frinnn@i59F61CB5.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:39:26 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:40:22 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:41:14 dunkyp [~user@188-223-2-193.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:42:01 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:03 jdz: there's no point in naming your setter method (setf point-coords). Since it has not the standard API (a single new-value), it cannot be called by SETF, (so you have to define a defsetf instead. You should just call it set-point-coords. 14:42:03 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 14:42:08 dmv_ [~daniel@187.35.237.98] has joined #lisp 14:42:57 pjb: that's why i define the setf expander 14:44:46 jdz: just don't call it (setf point-coords): it doesn't obey the setf function protocol. 14:44:47 pkhuong: because the setf function defined by defgeneric* takes multiple values 14:44:51 -!- dunkyp [~user@188-223-2-193.zone14.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 14:45:05 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:05 yes, that's the issue 14:45:17 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:27