00:02:20 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-18-94.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 00:04:15 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:36 foom: no. What? Where? 00:05:37 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-18-94.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:39 -!- cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:06:12 as Knuth suggested 00:06:25 So... like what SBCL does on Alpha? 00:06:50 like what everyone does on sparc and ppc. 00:07:36 http://robertmh.wordpress.com/2011/01/19/finally-amd32-is-taking-shape/ 00:07:38 and I suppose separate code & data "segments" 00:07:54 no, why? 00:08:07 i.e. low 4GB used directly with 0-extended pointers 00:08:22 and code moved out of the way 00:08:36 this is 32bit pointers, period. Not sometimes 32bit sometimes 64bit. 00:08:53 oh, so code+data both fit in 4GB ? 00:09:10 could be 4GB for data, 4GB for code, in disjoint address spaces. 00:09:33 You know, I've argued at one point that it'd be nice to have such a model for SBCL on amd64. 00:09:52 Fare: or even 32 GB. 00:10:01 nyef: it becomes a lot easier to do when the C libraries are also built that way. 00:10:03 yup, with word-addressing 00:10:11 Largely because it's already there on alpha, and it'd be nice to be able to keep the code from bit-rot without having to have alpha hardware. 00:10:27 -!- konr [~user@ira.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:10:41 Yeah, but when the C libraries are built that way, you don't have quite the same amount of impedance mismatch. 00:11:00 Well, yes. Thus easier. :) 00:11:32 Yeah, but not quite so much of the same benefit in terms of keeping the alpha port in shape. 00:11:38 I'm not sure how much traction this'll gain, anyways. 00:11:59 ... maybe it'll end up "in traction"? 00:12:01 Java already does the SBCL-like method, I think. 00:12:30 Building a whole separate set of userspace binaries to be able to run some new 32bit programs seems like it's probably a rather marginal benefit for the effort. 00:13:52 foom: some JVM do, right. JRockit? 00:13:54 -!- heiz [~heiz@ppp89-110-11-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:11 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:14:30 sun's does too: http://wikis.sun.com/display/HotSpotInternals/CompressedOops 00:15:05 damn clg 00:15:14 -!- mrSpec [HOST217X42@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:17:27 -!- vokoda [~user@host86-179-139-237.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:41 Saturnation: Dare we ask? 00:19:25 (I thought "oops" was pretty concise, myself. I mean, it's no "oh, shit, there goes the planet", and it's about on par with "uh-oh"...) 00:20:02 Not happy with my ability to get ubuntu to deal with cl-clg 00:20:26 Clisp and SBCL not happy, though surprised to find that I could run sbcl even though it wasn't installed 00:20:32 Well, the standard answer around here is actually to not use distro packaging. 00:20:48 tradeoffs :( 00:20:54 Yeah, exactly. 00:21:22 that's kind of sad, but understandable 00:21:31 I think it's pretty neat how they, at runtime, can select the correct CompressedOops mode: entire heap < 4GB mark, entire heap < 32GB mark, otherwise. Or the normal 64bit pointer mode. 00:21:47 *Saturnation* hates sysadmin work and prefers to let the distro do that stuff as much as possible 00:22:07 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:22:19 though I suppose quick-lisp will go a fair way to fixing that 00:22:27 I think the same friction between distros and ruby applies here. 00:22:40 Oh, I hear that, but I find that managing my own lisp stuff is the least painful option thus far. 00:23:01 (Quicklisp might be less painful, but I have so few dependencies that it hasn't mattered yet.) 00:25:14 Can't be as bad as maintaining a SLS distro :) 00:25:35 *Saturnation* prepares to roll up his sleeves :( 00:26:24 so, everything from scratch? where to draw the line... 00:26:42 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27:16 do I nuke all the lisp stuff in the distro and start over ('cause that's what I'm inclined to do) 00:28:11 s0li [wat@bzq-79-182-128-115.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:13 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 00:29:08 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:33 so be it 00:29:35 If you're a beginner, I'd advise trying quicklisp. 00:29:53 Beyond that, I'm not sure. 00:30:08 clbuild2 looks interesting 00:31:04 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 00:32:27 -!- s0li [wat@bzq-79-182-128-115.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [] 00:33:37 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 00:34:41 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36:14 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-118-246.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:38:45 cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:05 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:43:49 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined 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joined #lisp 02:16:16 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 02:19:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:19:30 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@4.84-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:19:53 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:36 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:27:24 clhs #c 02:27:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhk.htm 02:28:46 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:29:14 barglfargl [~jeremy@75-131-194-186.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:29:41 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:54 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-73-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 02:34:58 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 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quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:05:13 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:39 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.88.218] has joined #lisp 04:05:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:08:37 luis: did you manage to get the "load library in initial thread" thing going? :-) 04:14:03 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:33 evening 04:16:40 Hello slyrus 04:21:46 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:22:43 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-57-204.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:24:07 hi slyrus, beach 04:26:12 -!- az [~az@p5796CC1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:27:05 moriarty [~pom@unaffiliated/moriarty] has joined #lisp 04:28:55 hi, sbcl vs allegro vs lispworks, which is better these days? 04:29:38 <_3b> sbcl is popular, 'better' would require some comparison criteria 04:31:35 hm a decent ide with rich features like auto-completion, auto-inclusion, look-up reference, compiler, version management, etc 04:32:13 You sound confused 04:32:13 <_3b> well, sbcl has no ide, i'd use slime rather than some IDE anyway though 04:32:32 <_3b> slime does some of those things, other parts of emacs might do a few more of them 04:32:49 thanks _3b, i'd look up slime 04:32:53 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 04:33:18 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 04:34:54 -!- benny [~benny@i577A74C4.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:35:28 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:36:35 az [~az@p5796C469.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:37 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:38:09 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 04:38:30 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 04:48:10 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:56:36 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:44 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 05:09:37 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 05:13:43 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:17:21 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:35:35 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:39:52 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:41:14 Any ideas on getting drakma to work on openbsd? ("libssl.so.0.9.8" "libssl.so") 05:41:21 it cant load that library see 05:41:29 I dunno why, but there you go. 05:41:53 -!- dberg [~user@c-24-130-226-175.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:43:08 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:56 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:47:05 Genieliu [~genie@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 06:00:49 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.71.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:02:31 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.149.18] has joined #lisp 06:06:07 -!- Genieliu [~genie@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:08:28 symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:02 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.6.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:12:01 xinming [~hyy@115.221.6.243] has joined #lisp 06:13:59 -!- moriarty [~pom@unaffiliated/moriarty] has left #lisp 06:16:46 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:04 Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.132.91] has joined #lisp 06:18:23 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-32-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:46 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:58 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:21:51 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:52 robjj99 [46840664@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.132.6.100] has joined #lisp 06:24:36 rien [~rien@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 06:24:46 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-118-246.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:24:59 jsoft: you also need libcrypto 06:25:54 I don't think library loading is recursive on openbsd, you need to manually load dependencies 06:26:22 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:28:41 does anyone know if it's possible to get video of the Google AI winner's lisp talk as a downloadable file somewhere? 06:29:06 It's available as a stream ( http://www.franz.com/services/conferences_seminars/webinar_1-20-11.lhtml ) but I want a file -- mp4, wmv, whatever... 06:37:58 Liera [~user@113.172.72.20] has joined #lisp 06:39:13 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:40:10 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-8-249.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:32 -!- algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: algal] 06:41:47 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:42:58 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:43:21 -!- algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 06:46:58 -!- spiaggia [~user@113.161.72.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:49:27 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:25 grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:29 -!- adamvh 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[~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 08:41:54 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-50-97.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:30 -!- xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:45:53 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-54-231.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:48:03 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 08:54:02 Landr [~vser@78-21-49-156.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 08:58:40 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 08:58:48 -!- xristos is now known as Guest88172 09:00:29 joe6 [~joe@c-24-126-150-146.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:02 Liera```` [~user@113.172.48.203] has joined #lisp 09:02:23 guys: quick question: i am lisp newbie. i am wondering if a lisp functions' name can be read back in a lisp function? i am trying to print out some values and do not want to add boiler plate code to print the code and I am wondering if I can in someway read the programstate back out. 09:02:46 -!- Liera``` [~user@123.21.156.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:03:11 any help is greatly appreciated. 09:04:40 joe6: your question is not very clear 09:05:06 joe6: paste some code here if you wish: http://paste.lisp.org/ and try to describe better what you need 09:05:38 mishoo: will do. Thanks. 09:12:19 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:16:35 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 09:17:28 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:22:31 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 09:25:49 -!- eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:27:41 i was looking for the generic functions. found them in the manual. 09:31:47 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:24 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 09:36:30 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:38:02 a5h15h [~a5h15h@59.95.35.206] has joined #lisp 09:38:17 -!- a5h15h [~a5h15h@59.95.35.206] has left #lisp 09:40:12 -!- beach` is now known as beach 09:43:39 malbertife [~Adium@bl11-214-22.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:47:50 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:48:22 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754841.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:26 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:50:18 joe6: The name of a function is not known inside a function. In fact, a function can have no name, one name, or several names. But you can easily write a macro, say defun-named inside the body of which you can bind a variable to the name of the function. 09:51:41 beach: makes sense. Thanks. 09:53:33 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:16 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.132.91] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:27 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 10:04:05 malbertife1 [~Adium@bl11-214-22.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:04:05 -!- malbertife [~Adium@bl11-214-22.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:08 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.254.69] has joined #lisp 10:04:19 -!- malbertife1 [~Adium@bl11-214-22.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 10:04:49 malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-214-22.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:05:51 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:08:10 H4ns` [~user@p579F8AD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:10 -!- H4ns [~user@p579F8683.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:12:28 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:14:08 freiksenet 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[~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:34 EarlGray [~dmytrish@79.124.248.39] has joined #lisp 12:05:38 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 12:06:03 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 12:10:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:16:49 Bronsa [~brace@host9-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:17:16 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-73-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:22:31 -!- xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4d0c9c95.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: xraycat] 12:23:01 xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4d0c9c95.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:59 joe6: you may also store functions in a hash table to map them to their names, since they're first class objects. Or you may use implementation specific devices to find out the function name. Notice also that as a function doesn't know it's name (which one?), it doesn't know itself either. You may ask them how a recursive function can be written? Either using the Y combinator, or going thru symbols. (There's a symbol->function map, 12:26:59 but not a function->symbol map). 12:28:22 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:30:12 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@79.124.248.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:15 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 12:34:35 serichsen [~user@f048200034.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:37 Hello! 12:35:09 hi 12:36:48 EarlGray [~dmytrish@88.154.64.24] has joined #lisp 12:39:32 uzmest [~uzmest@209-191.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:45:17 -!- Guest88172 is now known as xristos 12:47:01 kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-193-56.ip56.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:47:05 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@88.154.64.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:47:38 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.206.114] has joined #lisp 12:50:06 -!- sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has quit [] 12:50:29 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:51:53 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 12:57:19 -!- SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:59:25 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:00:31 -!- uzmest [~uzmest@209-191.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has left #lisp 13:01:54 CallToPower [~CallToPow@xdslev171.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:06:28 Yx02QV [~Yx02QV@public69142.xdsl.centertel.pl] has joined #lisp 13:08:06 hello 13:08:55 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 13:08:55 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.254.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:10:12 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 13:11:25 -!- dRbiG [p@irc.kaer.tk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:11:28 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 13:11:48 moah [~gnu@dslb-092-073-068-142.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:17 Yx02QV: hello 13:14:30 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip21-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:15:27 EarlGray [~dmytrish@91.145.230.127] has joined #lisp 13:16:07 grouzen [~grouzen@ip21-159.200.109.crimea.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:26 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@xdslev171.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: > /dev/null 2>&1] 13:16:54 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-128-254.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:17:33 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-174-118.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:18:12 dRbiG [p@irc.kaer.tk] has joined #lisp 13:23:09 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:03 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:25:18 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.206.114] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:27:18 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-193-56.ip56.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:28:21 -!- incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 13:29:32 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:29:43 splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:29:49 morning 13:30:45 incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:45 -!- incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:31:49 splittist: morning 13:33:23 incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:02 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-174-118.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:36:05 CallToPower [~CallToPow@xdslev171.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:36:44 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-253.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:41:05 -!- jestocost [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:45:41 -!- zac31415` [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:44 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:56:15 -!- mephisto_ 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[~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has joined #lisp 14:16:20 pocket_ [~pocket_@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:21:15 dru1d [~dru1d@82.177.172.217] has joined #lisp 14:21:46 -!- boiantz [~boiantz@92-247-214-154.spectrumnet.bg] has left #lisp 14:22:07 ssh working. git repository set up. editor settings under control. what can I do now to postpone actual coding? 14:22:22 I know - picking a testing framework! 14:22:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-253.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:22:45 urandom__ [~user@p548A32C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:58 hacking some new cool Slime feature which will help writing code 14:23:17 splittist: participating in a what's-wrong-with-cl thread :-) 14:23:46 and after that, optimizing SBCL so that the code written will be fast 14:24:14 or a what's wrong with what's wrong with cl threads thread 14:24:43 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:27 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.201.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:30:01 dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@88.154.54.218] has joined #lisp 14:30:03 silenius [~silenus@p549470E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:38 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@79.124.142.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:33:35 timack [~tim@hlfx62-1-163.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 14:36:00 Saturnation [~dsouth@pool-70-109-188-185.burl.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:14 splittist: you could write a grant proposal to try to secure funding for you to be allowed to code 14:37:28 quit 14:37:35 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx62-1-163.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 14:38:02 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:41:26 Krystof: heh. I wonder what I would have to do to qualify as a tertiay institution for EU funding purposes... 14:41:51 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:42:59 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:44:03 'The Sustainable Women's Islamic University of Applied Technology (Basque)' 14:44:14 dmytrish__ [~dmytrish@88.154.42.117] has joined #lisp 14:45:55 -!- dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@88.154.54.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:46:30 anyone here had success installing clg with clisp on a Linux system? 14:47:04 *Saturnation* is getting ... "gtk.asd: =: NIL is not a number" :( 14:47:14 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@72.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:47:27 splittist: no, *writing* a testing framework :D 14:50:23 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 14:50:46 Saturnation: It's only not working in clisp? 14:52:36 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53:41 valium97582, can't install and only just playing with CLISP at the moment 14:54:05 *Saturnation* is too much of a newbie to be running multiple CL implementations yet 14:54:40 sbcl requires some extra work, that I'm not inclined to do yet, but will look into it in the not too distant future 14:56:45 Saturnation: what extra work does sbcl require on a linux system? 14:57:36 the Alien Function stuff. I tried downloading the binary and it barfed 14:57:50 oops, have to run out for a bit... 14:58:29 Step 1. in the README build instructions... 14:58:36 for clg 14:59:18 -!- pocket_ [~pocket_@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:41 Saturnation: does anyone use or work on clg any more? 15:01:36 Xach: i'm able to play mega's webinar on linux 15:02:02 What the hell does it concern a website that is supposed to show me a video which operating system I use? 15:02:16 stassats: was there a trick to doing it? 15:02:18 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 15:02:47 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 15:03:41 after changing user agent, and registering, and downloading the asf file, it has a mms url to a wmv file and mplayer mms://....wmv -dumpstream -dumpfile foo.wmv 15:04:08 well, you can watch it directly, without dumping, but i prefer to download it first 15:04:54 easy as pie 15:06:04 it's the year of linux on desktop! 15:06:18 Would it be possible to share the mms url, or does it contain identification information? 15:06:41 mms://a323.v235432.c23543.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/323/23543/v0001/citrixvar.download.akamai.com/23543/www/630/099/7858717095955630099/2-7858717095955630099-12da5740387.wmv 15:06:48 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:59 and audio could be better, but it's only XXI century, so i'm not complaining 15:08:34 Zephyrus [~emanuele@2001:5c0:1000:b::92f7] has joined #lisp 15:08:35 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@2001:5c0:1000:b::92f7] has quit [Changing host] 15:08:35 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 15:09:18 The century of the fruitbat! 15:09:53 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-57-204.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:05 G'morning all. 15:11:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:11:32 G'morning nyef. 15:11:54 Anything interesting happening? 15:12:49 Xach: is it a coincidence that, having installed quicklisp for implementation A, just doing the (load ..."quicklisp/setup.lisp"..) works for subsequent installations? 15:13:10 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 15:13:32 If, as I suspect, not, perhaps that could be clarified in the FAQ? 15:14:43 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:15:33 vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.115.112.228.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:16:04 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 15:17:43 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 15:18:26 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip21-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:24:46 please I'de like to remove this message during my program execution: # 15:25:14 (open "filename.out" :direction :output :if-exists :supersede) 15:25:47 you shouldn't use OPEN 15:26:02 why not? 15:26:26 clhs with-open-file 15:26:26 minion: are you there? 15:26:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm 15:26:26 no 15:26:40 Typically, one would use WITH-OPEN-FILE, which guarantees that the file will be closed if execution leaves the body of the WITH-OPEN-FILE form. 15:26:57 ok 15:27:00 There are, however, plausible reasons for using OPEN at times. 15:29:11 with-open-file will remove the file if an errors occurs in between; the file name being "simulation.out" I can see that to bite you 15:30:53 tcr2: no way, messages remains 15:32:19 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:32:50 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:48 Okay, now's the point where we have to ask where the message is coming from. 15:35:12 tcr2: I don't want those messages to be printed, I've to print out other informations and I don't want them to be overwritten or flushed 15:36:04 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:37:01 I'm not sure what messages you're talking of. My best guess is that SBCL might print some kind of warning when it garbage collects an FD-STREAM which has not been closed 15:37:02 daniel___ [~daniel@p5082A0FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:27 If that's the case, then make sure to close the streams at the appropriate point. For instance via WITH-OPEN-FILE 15:37:32 Or it's getting printed when the stream is opened? 15:38:03 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:38:26 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 15:38:38 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-151-231-62.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:39:46 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082A6D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:42:09 nyef: where I print/princ data in file 15:42:09 Posterdati: can you give a code example? 15:42:17 serichsen: sure 15:42:30 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:32 Posterdati: Use paste.lisp.org, please. 15:43:00 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:35 serichsen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118908 15:43:50 -!- dmytrish__ [~dmytrish@88.154.42.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:46:55 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:09 Posterdati: Why do you `(print out)`? 15:47:41 -!- Yx02QV [~Yx02QV@public69142.xdsl.centertel.pl] has left #lisp 15:47:42 serichsen: to get a carriage return 15:47:59 clhs TERPRI 15:47:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_terpri.htm 15:48:15 (PRINT OUT) specifically prints the value of OUT, which is a stream. 15:48:15 Posterdati: what do you think the first argument to print is? 15:48:30 serichsen: lol 15:48:35 serichsen: you're right 15:49:00 serichsen: is the whole variable containing the stream 15:49:38 serichsen: (print "" out) 15:49:44 serichsen: ? 15:49:52 Posterdati: what nyef said. 15:49:54 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-85-162.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 15:50:44 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 15:51:03 -!- beach [~user@116.118.75.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:51:05 -!- silenius [~silenus@p549470E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:51:12 serichsen: so to print a simple cr? 15:51:25 Posterdati: TERPRI. 15:51:29 TERminate PRInt line. 15:51:42 nyef, serichsen: ok, thanks 15:53:29 brodo [~brodo@p5B0228E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:39 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01143a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:23 hi 15:54:23 prxq, memo from rtoym: Forgot to mention but if you can get by with a 32-bit lisp and only need about 32 digits of precision, then double-double support in cmucl would be way faster than quad-doubles in oct. 15:55:49 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:54 cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:01 Yay, just have a use case for ACONS where PUSH wouldn't do 15:56:41 *tcr2* ticks off ACONS. 15:57:03 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:58:24 maybe (let ((*my-alist* (cons key value *my-alist*))) ...) ? 15:58:37 tcr2: some kind of quiz looking at which functions you're using? 15:58:38 *acons 15:58:39 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@189.115.112.228.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:59:53 adeht: (multiple-value-bind (filtered-alist ) (filter-alist alist ) (setq alist (acons :foo (bar) filtered-alist) ) 16:00:33 just came in natural with the rest of the code 16:02:23 carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.80] has joined #lisp 16:08:54 -!- tmokros [~tsiar@ip68-106-151-191.cl.ri.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:09:13 -!- cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:10:36 Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:10:50 cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:11 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:12:16 pinkwerks [~pinkwerks@cpe-74-68-129-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:13:04 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:13:28 splittist: You are going to come to the zurich lisp meeting on feb 7 right? 16:13:58 -!- pinkwerks [~pinkwerks@cpe-74-68-129-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:50 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 16:21:13 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:21:14 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:21:49 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.206.54] has joined #lisp 16:23:30 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:24:13 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 16:24:29 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-128-254.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:25:13 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:25:35 pinkwerks [~pinkwerks@cpe-74-68-129-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:09 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 16:28:12 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.163.241.241] has joined #lisp 16:29:00 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:28 tcr2: that is my earnest hope, yes. 16:32:13 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 16:33:57 tcr2: you'll be there? 16:34:33 Heh. It would be nice if minion could assign a time/date stamp on memos. That memo to prxq is like several months old. 16:35:03 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:35:25 splittist: sure I live in zurich since last saturday :-) 16:35:45 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:36:30 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-41.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:33 *tcr2* marvels at this particular loop unrolling case: (vector #1=(pop foo) #1# #1# #1# #1# #1# #1# #1#) 16:36:46 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.206.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:11 tcr2: hooray! Are you in the dormitory or do you have your own place? 16:37:33 LiamH [~healy@vpn219118.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:37:37 Flat searching life is very tough :-( 16:37:59 gotta write some more applications later 16:38:05 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-253.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:38:31 splittist: We rented an apartment for our commuters; that's where I live in right now. But I want to get into a shared flat and among people 16:38:39 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:54 tcr2: it is tough in ZRH (although I was super lucky when I went looking). Should be a fair amount of shared accomdation with ETH and UniZ there, I would have thought. 16:40:25 yeah but demand is huge, too. Haven't had luck so far. 16:41:35 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-41.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:41:40 well that's the trouble with listing your hobbies as 'bassoon playing' and 'experimental Indian cookery'... 16:42:33 -!- cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:42:53 haha you did? 16:44:28 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:45:19 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-173-41.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:45:57 beach [~user@116.118.11.219] has joined #lisp 16:50:12 ppl it works!!! 16:50:21 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:50:23 Posterdati: Congratulations. 16:50:49 I did a program to solve circuit with non linear elements such as gas discharge lamp or diodes 16:51:52 Sweet. 16:52:37 starting from a simple circuit description in a text file 16:53:32 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:36 you can select probes to print out currents or voltage potential differences across circuit 16:54:01 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 16:54:53 Is an array of element-type uint32 specified to be initialized to 0? 16:55:01 tcr2: no 16:55:07 bummer 16:55:54 tcr2: It is if you specify :initial-element 0, though. 16:56:04 yeah 16:56:17 it's specified to be unspecified if you access uninitialized elements 16:56:34 *Xach* found that out only by using lispworks, which provides nonzero values for uninitialized integer arrays 16:56:43 -!- dru1d [~dru1d@82.177.172.217] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:57:51 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:02 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:32 tcr2: in implementations which initialize to 0, specifying :initial-element 0 should incur no extra work 16:59:18 extra typing work 17:00:02 granted 17:00:52 Xach: what is a newly made array filled with in lispworks? Random stuff? 17:01:22 prxq: it was when i tried it a few years ago, which alerted me to the spec's permission of such behavior 17:01:58 Xach: http://code.google.com/p/circuit/ 17:02:35 cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:39 Xach, stassats, nyef, serichsen: http://code.google.com/p/circuit/ 17:03:02 what interesting is there? 17:03:03 Xach: interesting. What is (make-array 5) filled with? An array of type t filled with random stuff surely sounds interesting 17:04:02 I think they initialize that to nil 17:04:22 if they don't - wow! :-) 17:04:52 on lispworks 6, it's NIL 17:04:59 (make-array 5 :element-type 'fixnum) => #(536887299 571519021 -2147450730 539437155 571519033) 17:05:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:06:02 which i find actually to be good 17:06:09 carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.80] has joined #lisp 17:06:29 => #(0 0 0 0 0) 17:06:36 sbcl 17:06:39 stassats: sure, a cheap rng... 17:06:57 (that was a joke) 17:07:03 antoszka: Yeah, SBCL zero-fills its pages. 17:07:07 stassats: I used lispworks for 20 minutes, I don't like it, just use sbcl :) 17:07:07 if you initialize it later, you won't do the double work of initializing it to 0, and then discarding this step 17:07:38 -!- LiamH [~healy@vpn219118.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:41 initializing to zero is not very expensive, I think 17:08:00 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:08:01 tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:08:15 at least, iirc. x86 has special asm instructions for this kind of thing. 17:08:21 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:21 depends on how large your arrays are 17:08:31 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:08:36 You pay memory bandwidth for it, at least. 17:09:05 Not sure. IIRC allocating pages of zeros is cheap on linux 17:09:44 (I have vague memories of basically being given a large number in constant-time, and then it does copy-on-write underneath) 17:09:54 granted, that's just a micro-optimization 17:09:54 if it doesn't do that, it should ;-) 17:10:23 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@xdslev171.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: > /dev/null 2>&1] 17:11:52 Yeah, okay, I remember that too, but that really just pushes the cost elsewhere. 17:12:30 I suppose if you have a DMA channel somewhere that can do the job independent of the CPU it could work... 17:13:17 Anyway, if you purposely walk down a list twice for no reason for DESTRUCTURING-BIND keyword args, you might as well not worry about unnecessary array zeroing ;P 17:13:21 amb007 [~a_bakic@68.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:37 if that's your bottle-neck you are doing something really strange 17:14:31 prxq: It seems like that kind of argument would stand for most optimizations you might want to make, ever. 17:14:34 Hexstream: it's still O(n) 17:15:06 you can save on constant costs, but you still won't do better than O(n) 17:15:12 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:39 also, if you spent the time you've spent discussing it on actually fixing it, maybe sometime before the end of the Universe you'd recover the time investment :-) 17:17:29 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C176.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:47 Krystof: I'm expecting there's a nonzero cost to starting contributing to a large project. I already have some focus problems, I don't want to spread myself even thinner. 17:19:06 nyef, CLISP from scratch, installing clg by hand and getting the EXACT same error :) ... :( 17:19:36 Hexstream: like google, you can spend 15% of your time on improving SBCL 17:19:51 Saturnation: Can't help you, although I suspect you're missing something reasonably fundamental. 17:20:02 stassats: Google spends 15% of their time improving SBCL? 17:20:09 yeah, just funny after the conversation last night... 17:20:18 15% is a bit of a myth at Google 17:20:35 You CAN do it, but from what I hear, it isn't the norm to be doing it 17:20:36 nyef: not exactly 17:20:49 Saturnation: the exact time division is slightly different 17:21:10 nyef: that's why they hired jsnell 17:21:14 I do expect to contribute to SBCL somewhere down the road... I expect my coding style would set off serious alarms however ;P 17:21:18 whatever it is, it isn't enoforced 17:21:18 some time is designated for internal "blue-sky" projects, some is allowed for non-Google stuff 17:21:26 to secretly improve SBCL 17:21:33 Saturnation: sure, you're not forced to do it 17:21:43 they just find it useful for the company, though 17:21:59 p_l|backup, and because of the pressures of getting things done, it tends NOT to happen 17:22:03 p_l|backup: I think it's more "you have to carve out the time for yourself; your managers aren't particularly going to _help_ you secure 20% of your time" 17:22:05 not saying SOME people don't do it 17:22:58 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:23:39 Krystof: You're expected to carve your time around anyway, I think. It's just that 20%~30% of it doesn't have to be spent on the stuff that is directly arranged for you to work on 17:23:59 Baughn said something about getting stuff in his queue at three times the speed he clears them :D 17:25:01 I've heard that's typical of many firms. 17:25:25 tmh [6c491a1c@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 17:25:31 Greetings lispers. 17:25:37 hi tmh 17:25:41 tmh: hello 17:25:58 Hope everyone is having a good Saturday. 17:26:35 prxq: it wasn't for me back when I worked as sysadmin in a corporation... unfortunately 17:26:54 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:05 (yes, I'm complaining that I didn't have enough work to do.) 17:28:26 p_l|backup: Sounds like my first real programming job, too. Feast-or-famine, typically famine... And that was before I replaced most of my job functions with a perl script. 17:30:32 it is an interesting realization that this kind of thing also wears you out. 17:31:35 That's why you don't have to lay-off good engineers when down-sizing, just quit giving them work. They'll get bored, anxious, and look for other work on their own. 17:32:58 triton [~triton@bl14-251-29.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:33:46 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:14 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:52 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:00 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 17:39:06 -!- triton [~triton@bl14-251-29.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 17:40:00 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 17:42:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:44:54 *splittist* can think of a few job functions he'd like to replace with a program. Time recording and RANDOM just seem to go together... 17:45:00 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 17:47:32 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:53:26 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:36 koning_r1bot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 17:54:01 qsun_ [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 17:54:13 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.149.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:54:32 prip_ [~foo@host1-128-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:54:42 kencausey2 [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 17:55:49 eno__ [~eno@adsl-70-137-134-172.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:08 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.51.149] has joined #lisp 17:56:23 c|mell [~cmell@cpc3-colc5-0-0-cust193.7-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:11 By the way, am I the only one valuing "readable" macroexpansions or everyone favors macro implementation simplicity? Among other things, I do a lot of (funcall #'foo arg) --> (foo arg) and other such minor "cleanups", which is I suppose almost guaranteed to be equivalent in all implementations that matter... 17:58:23 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@68.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:58:24 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.6.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:58:24 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:58:24 -!- koning_robot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:58:24 -!- prip [~foo@host1-128-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:58:24 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:58:24 -!- silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:58:24 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:58:24 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:59:01 Hexstream: I don't understand your example. 17:59:01 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 17:59:57 splittist: Let's say I have a macro that takes an argument that will be evaluated to a function, if I see that the form is a FUNCTION form then I can avoid using FUNCALL. 18:00:29 I don't expect any performance increase but I find it makes for macroexpansions that are nicer to read. 18:00:39 xinming [~hyy@115.221.6.243] has joined #lisp 18:00:42 I'd value macro simplicity over macroexpansion simplicity 18:01:03 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:11 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 18:01:22 Yeah, I thought so. I guess I've just been a tad obsessive. Again. 18:01:44 It's a tradeoff. Sometimes I try to get cleaner maroexpansion if it does not complicate the macro implementation 18:01:55 amb007 [~a_bakic@68.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:22 I wouldn't do it in the funcall example though 18:02:22 I usually reason about macros in terms of code transformation, and rarely need to use macroexpand. 18:03:05 I guess one issue is that, particularly for compiler macros, I don't know which optimizations I can reasonably expect the implementation to do so it's safer to optimize everything I can, performance-wise. 18:03:27 It's safer to optimize for the machine sitting on your desk. 18:03:27 sure, but you have to grok what kind of transformation it does. Macroexpanding an actual use is a perfect example that helps understanding a lot 18:03:37 Xach: http://lisperweasel.blogspot.com/ 18:03:42 tcr1: Yes, but it's rarely necessary. 18:03:58 Eatime. 18:04:26 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:38 Well, considering that most macros follows well-established patterns, yeah perhaps "rarely" though I'd rather say "sometimes" 18:05:48 is the best way to debug code to just print out values? I.e. princ, format, etc... 18:05:59 splittist: my only "in office" task at that work was to write a program that filled the timesheet for the whole section :D 18:06:18 Saturnation: I usually begin to trace some particular functions 18:06:27 then print out specific values inside those functions if I need more information 18:06:31 Macroexpand is more helpful when you have a complex macrology, such as you get for declarative code. 18:06:37 sometimes I also break in middle of the function to inspect values 18:06:52 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:06 The best way to debug code is to not put the bugs in the code in the first place. 18:07:07 p_l|backup: heh! 18:08:08 Stepping seems to be mostly only necessary in highly side-effectful code 18:08:38 this appears to have a helpful smell about it... "(let* ((asdf::*verbose-out* nil)..." 18:08:40 That said, I wouldn't worry about any hypothetical "best" way to debug things, just having a collection of approaches that you can use. 18:09:01 *Saturnation* assumes setting that to t might give me a better idea of what is happening within the function 18:09:18 uh no 18:09:23 dame 18:09:27 err, damn even 18:09:31 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:09:35 nyef: because there will be a point when none of these approaches will give you anything meaningful (: 18:09:41 nyef, but I thought programming was all about creating bugs 18:10:25 antifuchs: Precisely! I've lost years of time on a couple projects over the simplest oversights. 18:10:32 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:33 splittist: basically... HR wanted an anal-retentive excel sheet that mimicked (no automation!) good old paper timesheet, and which didn't fit the work being done. Section kept data on that in a MoinMoin Wiki. I added a script that allowed you to download the data for latest period as completed timesheet :D 18:10:41 right (-: 18:11:02 years? wow 18:11:10 nyef: how simple? 18:11:11 nyef is very, very old 18:11:26 p_l|backup: heh. i wrote a CLX program that checked to see if the screensaver was activated, and used cl-pdf to draw a timesheet that looked like an excel printout... 18:11:37 "that is not dead which can eternal lie..." 18:11:52 p_l|backup: One was the D flag thing with the Win32 calling convention (SBCL). One was using a 16-bit counter instead of a 32-bit counter (a mac bootloader). 18:12:40 Xach: that was my first approach. Later on I simply generated XML data in Excel 2003 format. The produced timesheets were better than the original :D 18:12:51 At a certain point, you just have to shelve the project and come back to it periodically to see if you get any better ideas. 18:13:11 To be fair, nyef uses these things in his personal temporal transportation device, so he really is losing years... 18:13:41 antifuchs: humanity *is* a cosmic horror. At least in making. Even Lovecraft wrote about it :) 18:14:27 well, nyef needs some more "th"s and "pt"s in there, but it is a very suitable Old One name. 18:15:35 *Saturnation* finds that clg appears to be depending on pkg-config output some information and there is NOTHING it is outputing?!? 18:16:38 Saturnation: If you answered my question earlier and I missed it, sorry. Does anyone use or maintain clg? 18:16:59 Xach, you asked me a question earlier? :) 18:17:19 I just repeated it, so pretend this was the first time. 18:18:01 *Saturnation* tries to buy a clue... 18:18:05 what? 18:18:19 Does anyone use or maintain clg? 18:18:29 Saturnation: Are you familiar with CLiki? 18:18:33 Yep 18:18:50 Xach: I don't know, but apparently there's been a new point release since last I messed with it. 18:19:00 Xach, I'm trying to use it, but can't get it to install with Clisp on a Ubuntu system 18:19:10 Saturnation: Why are you trying to use it? 18:19:32 Because it sounded like the best option on Cliki 18:19:40 Saturnation: the best option for what? 18:19:44 GUI's 18:19:46 Saturnation: I'm looking at the Gtk page on CLiki and there's like, um, a *billion* gtk bindings. If you are having problems with bit-rot or something else in clg, pick another binding. 18:19:48 apps 18:19:54 huangho [~vitor@201-66-169-248.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 18:20:14 tmh, can't install it, so not sure if I'm going to have a problem using it... :) 18:20:16 Saturnation: I don't think that's the case. I think you would have better luck with sbcl and cl-gtk2. 18:20:20 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:44 Yeah, I was just going to recommend cl-gtk2 since it looks fairly comprehensive. 18:20:45 Saturnation: if you are making apps for money, i think the best option is probably LispWorks CAPI. 18:20:59 Again, I second Xach. 18:21:46 Hm, CL-GTK2 last change was 2009.12.30. Looks like a great opportunity for fame and glory. 18:21:46 Not anywhere near thinking about money at this point, just want some widgets for the time being 18:22:01 Or fun and profit. 18:22:16 cl-gkt2 loads for me and the demo works nicely on linux+sbcl. 18:22:20 fun, definitely, profit, would be nice, but not too wired about it right now 18:22:21 cl-gtk2, rather. 18:22:30 thanks for that 18:24:12 ultimately, I'd like to be in a position where I can write apps for windows, mac and linux with Lisp. Right now, just trying to get some chops built up with the language 18:24:44 Saturnation: Your time and money is probably best spent buying and learning LispWorks, then. 18:24:50 More precisely, I'm investigating my hunch that learning Lisp will give me a bigger lever for writing code 18:25:06 I've discovered what I'm pretty sure is a bug in the cl-lex project hosted ogfn ffff 18:25:18 t6 sorry cat on keyboard 18:25:25 on quicklisp 18:25:26 Xach, thanks. Guess I could always start with the person edition as well. :) 18:25:38 and I was wondering whether you (Xach) would like a patch 18:25:45 or if I should bug the maintainer 18:26:24 adamvh: please bug the maintainer. i am not currently in the patch-things-up business. 18:26:50 *Xach* doesn't mind occasionally acting as intermediary 18:27:14 Do you know the best way to get in touch with him/her? 18:27:49 eck, I'm a bit spoiled. The price of the professional edition of LispWorks seems steep, but probably is reasonable? 18:28:00 adamvh: http://code.google.com/p/cl-lex/ 18:28:21 Saturnation: If you want to sell apps on linux, mac, and windows, it seems reasonable to me. 18:28:22 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:29:01 carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.80] has joined #lisp 18:29:35 Xach, Agreed, but still hard to swallow as a one person "company" with no current income... 18:30:00 Saturnation: You need to consider the price with amortisation 18:30:24 FirewalkR [~firewalkr@a85-138-104-212.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 18:31:15 use commonqt! 18:31:38 it's not fully ready yet, but the more people use it, the sooner it'll get better 18:32:03 I'd like to buy it, but the financial officer will have to be convinced... :) 18:32:53 Saturnation: It's not a hard decision, do you want to invest time in an open source GUI toolkit or money in a commercial one. There is no wrong choice and both have risks. 18:33:40 Saturnation: Unless you have a specific project with a specific deadline, I'd say go for the open source project. 18:35:44 and commonqt has at least three contributors 18:36:18 tmh, it's easier to go the the OS option at the moment 18:36:23 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-219-232.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:38:02 Saturnation: Cool. 18:43:06 tmh, and with the OS, I'm guaranteed to be able to root around in the source, as I am now (and finding that the exit-code for the pkg-config executing is NIL) 18:43:49 I suspect that explains the error message NIL is not a number :) 18:43:53 Saturnation: Yeah, so you can learn more. 18:44:17 good news, I'm in charge of my destiny. BTW, that's the bad news too... 18:45:05 asdf:run-shell-command is returning NIL, not sure what that means, but that's one more thing I now that I didn't a minute ago... 18:46:35 Saturnation: clisp/asdf bug. 18:47:35 it has been fixed 18:47:45 tcr1: I'm sure you know this, but if you have any contacts at UBS or Credit Suisse, it's worth asking them to look out on their intranet for offers that might help you. 18:48:09 by me! (i sure am humble) 18:48:30 splittist: for flats? 18:49:34 splittist: I'm looking for a shared flats with people roughly as young as me. I wouldn't think those would think of announcing via a bank. I'm mostly content with sites such as wgzimmer.ch 18:49:43 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.88.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:11 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.81.167] has joined #lisp 18:50:25 splittist: That said, what bank can you recommend for opening a bank account? Luke's on credit suisse, I guess I will go with that 18:51:01 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:07 tcr1: yes. If you can stand folks that might be a little older, it's one way of getting to know about things that aren't publicized to the world. 18:51:21 tcr1: I'm UBS - I think they're basically equivalent. 18:51:44 splittist: I spent a year with people much older than me, I honestly need change 18:51:58 and become a member of the jet-set 18:55:52 tcrl: Luke Gorrie? 18:56:05 yeah 18:56:18 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:56:20 tcrl, are you working with him? 18:56:31 yes :-) 18:56:58 If you don't mind, tell him the guy he worked with on his first job a Squirrel Internet says hi. :) 18:58:10 At least I think it was his first coding job... 18:58:26 He's currently away but I left him a message 18:58:37 thanks 18:58:49 I keep losing his ever changing email address... 18:59:08 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:09 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01143a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:02:06 Xach, so a quicklisp update should get the fix? 19:03:10 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:04:16 Apparently not... :( 19:04:22 Saturnation: No. I don't think there is a fix. 19:04:37 Saturnation: don't use clisp, perhaps. or don't use projects that rely on that asdf feature. 19:05:35 ah, put Xach and stassats comments together in my head... :) 19:07:31 Xach, or hack away at the file like a stubborn mule until it doesn't care 19:08:55 said file being the clg config.lisp file 19:09:14 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:09:33 Saturnation: no, asdf:run-shell-command returning NIL on Clisp has been fixed, you were right about my comment 19:09:40 it's fixed in 2.012 19:09:48 ASDF 2.012 19:10:22 lp 692979 19:10:22 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/692979 19:11:06 cool who hacked that one in? 19:11:56 stassats, yes but version in quicklisp is asdf-install-20101207-git 19:12:09 tcr1: run-shell-command returning NIL? 19:13:08 so 1) where does quicklisp install its packages and 2) can I replace a package without screwing up quicklisp down the road... 19:14:30 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:15:13 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:16:48 1) ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/ 2) of course 19:17:19 I think I've been programming lisp too long when I change a function and it doesn't reflect the change when I call it because I haven't manually evaluated or compiled the update. Shouldn't my IDE read my mind and update it for me? 19:17:46 (where replace means "install somewhere other than quicklisp's package directory", though) 19:17:52 l4ndfo [~l4ndfo@S0106001cf0520ea3.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:52 tmh: that can be done 19:17:54 tmh: slime can do that 19:19:13 Cool. What's the basic logic with respect to identifying a complete edit versus just an interruption of the edit? 19:19:26 *cmm-* wouldn't want that, what with his habit of thinking by diddling code text in trivial but uncompilable ways 19:20:43 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:49 cmm-: Agree. I was complaining tongue-in-cheek. When I've actually thought about this, it seems that it would be a bit of a nuisance with incorrect code. 19:21:20 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:17 there is some contrib which highlights parts of the code which weren't compiled 19:22:24 tmh: well, presumably a scheme where your function is automagically compiled by slime into "check if my definition is up-to-date, update as needed, then do stuff" could work 19:22:28 i haven't tried it and i don't know whether it currently works 19:22:58 and it's called slime-highlight-edits 19:23:17 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:26 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:46 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:08 cmm-, I'm not cogent enough with my lisp system to be able to install it somewhere else... 19:25:03 Interesting. I would think you could tap into the reader to highlight code red if it is not correct, green if it is but not evaluated/compiled and not highlighted otherwise. 19:25:40 and you'll get a fruit-salad instead of code 19:25:58 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:40 Does anyone know where quicklisp dumps fasl's? 19:28:38 larva [~larvanitr@ec2-46-51-171-183.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:51 jdz [~jdz@host89-16-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:29:23 adamvh: ~/.cache/common-lisp/ 19:29:33 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:05 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:31:51 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:33:13 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:38:48 i am lisp newbie and have 2 lists of the same record structure. I want to compare the records in each list and print out only the records whose fields which are different. 19:39:13 I can do the same by writing code that can traverse each record and compare each field. 19:39:23 Is there a smarter way of doing the same? 19:39:47 Saturnation: asdf has a predefined directory tree under your home where you can just drop stuff and it'll find it. can't remember what the place is, though, but it's documented in the asdf manual 19:42:04 joe6: The problem seems under-specified. Can you paste some examples with code? 19:43:21 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:44:05 cmm-, thanks, I'll look into it 19:44:35 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-66-169-248.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:45:39 *cmm-* wonders how iterate is a huge improvement over loop when its specification basically dictates that any implementation thereof has to code-walk 19:46:47 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 19:46:59 and it could be avoided by simply restricting the iteration keywords to what is that common case anyway (either symbols in the ITERATE package or the current package) 19:47:18 joe6: This could be written compactly using (mapcar #'your-comparison '(list 1) '(list 2)) i suppose. 19:47:22 s/that/the/ 19:47:23 phao [~phao@189.107.234.119] has joined #lisp 19:47:42 -!- malbertife [~marcoalbe@bl11-214-22.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: malbertife] 19:48:16 I'm interested in reading OnLisp, but I don't know any common lisp (I can write scheme programs though). Can I read On Lisp without knowing common lisp (does the book teaches it?)? 19:48:48 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:18 Saturnation: "The default location for a user to install Common Lisp software is under ~/.local/share/common-lisp/source/" 19:49:18 antoszka: the #'your-comparison will have to traverse the record structure. It has to read field1 from the record 1 of list1 and record2 of list2, compare them and printout a diff message if they are different. 19:49:23 phao: Technically, you can, but it is geared towards Common Lisp, so you would probably get more out of it if you know Common Lisp. 19:49:53 phao: If you speak scheme, you'll probably get most of the code, but you could start with a more indroductory CL book. 19:50:09 phao: Like PCL. 19:50:14 right 19:50:24 so the book doesn't teach CL, it uses it to teach some other things? 19:50:32 antoszka, that was my alternative =) 19:50:43 "Lisp is a family of languages. Since Common Lisp promises to remain a widely used dialect, most of the examples in this book are in Common Lisp." 19:50:45 antoszka: I am wondering if there is a way that I can tell lisp to treat the record structure itself as a list of fields and just use mapcar on the list of fields. 19:51:22 phao: It mostly discusses advanced macro programming  which is something you might be interested in, but will be easier if you start with PCL or something similar. 19:51:35 ok 19:51:35 phao: So it's not an introduction to general CL. 19:51:37 i'll go with pcl 19:51:52 joe6: you could tell defstruct to use lists as backing storage (defstruct (foo (:type list)) ...) 19:52:28 I'm going to use scheme, honestly... but two things... I always wanted to know how CL is like to really decide which of scheme/CL I'm going to use, and scheme materials are much academic-like 19:52:36 Most are research papers 19:52:42 joe6: or vectors, similarly. vectors are mappable-over too 19:52:56 there aren't many materials on programming techniques, etc 19:52:59 more practical ones, I mean. 19:53:26 joe6: mapcar will iterate over the lists taking a pair of corresponding records from list 1 and 2. you can do anything withing your function (including an internal mapcar over the record fields). 19:53:35 within* 19:53:57 joe6: Might be easier if you show us the structures. 19:54:04 PAIP covers style and techniques, too. 19:54:22 antoszka: ok, will do. 19:54:27 cmm-: thanks. 19:54:36 I've only started reading PAIP, but it seems to be a work of great beauty. 19:54:58 And yeah, it seems to include a CL crash-course in the first chapters. 19:55:02 PAIP? 19:55:05 of sorts. 19:55:15 phao: peter norvig, paradigms... 19:55:23 *antoszka* bbl, pasta 19:55:28 phao: It's a book about how to code a strong AI 19:55:30 rtoym: here? 19:57:59 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:10 Could a channel op please update the topic? ABCL --> 0.24.0 19:59:50 Looking at the topic makes me want to troll. Do you think it's possible that maga1 won the AI contest because of his intelligence and it had nothing to do with using Common Lisp? I mean, I bet the guy is so wicked smart he could have won it with INTERCAL. Just sayin'. 19:59:58 s/maga1/mega1/ 20:00:17 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.163] has joined #lisp 20:00:33 true 20:00:38 tmh: probably. but would he have been able to do it within the dead lines? 20:00:46 but doesn't it claims something about "mad ai skills" of his? 20:00:52 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.163] has quit [Client Quit] 20:01:24 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.163] has joined #lisp 20:02:33 p_l|backup: Good point. So, we're not claiming it was because he used Common Lisp, we're just trying to use the association fallacy to prove that common lisp is da' bomb. 20:03:23 tmh: and people will fail for it 20:03:32 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:46 p_l|backup: They always do. 20:03:52 also, he is in the channel, and thus it makes sense to be proud of an achievement like that :P 20:05:27 I have to admit that I had a huge grin when I saw that he won. 20:06:09 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 20:07:12 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-164-32.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:25 beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118915 <-- does this look good? 20:08:05 alexshendi [~alexshend@dslb-178-002-229-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:13 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-169-203.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:09:24 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:10:24 Interesting, CONSTANTLY, I had never heard of that function. 20:10:51 hehe. it took me 4 years to find it! 20:11:05 mathrick: i'd rather do (funcall (or key #'identity) elem) => (if key (funcall key elem) elem) 20:11:38 stassats: right. Also I just realised you might want to give weights as a sequence and not via WEIGHTING-KEY 20:11:45 tmh: very handy! 20:11:54 or at least (let ((key (or key #'identity))) 20:12:03 mathrick: Any particular reason for REDUCE over LOOP? Now that I know about CONSTANTLY, it does look very handy. 20:12:07 wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has joined #lisp 20:12:41 tmh: sure, two: 1) I hate LOOP 2) If reduce can do it, why use LOOP? It's cleaner and easier to read 20:12:48 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:44 mathrick: Both reasons are subjective, so that's okay. The main reason for LOOP over REDUCE for me is that LOOP is generally faster, at least for the problems I've compared. 20:13:56 huangho [~vitor@201-66-210-110.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:14:29 mathrick: I went through a phase where I wrote everything in terms of MAP,REDUCE, and friends, but found performance issues. 20:14:37 dunno really, never compared them 20:15:05 *mathrick* whips up a quick and worthless benchmark 20:15:17 mathrick: Okay, just wondering. I wouldn't change it unless you actually run into a performance issue. 20:16:01 mathrick: I actually have some code with FIXME notes to change REDUCE, MAP to LOOP, but haven't bothered because it just works. 20:16:52 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B0228E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:15 brodo [~brodo@141.99.224.34] has joined #lisp 20:17:47 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-179-92.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:47 reduce is nice as long as you don't need to use LAMBDA 20:19:54 curry/rcurry will suffice in many cases where plain FUNCTION doesn't. 20:20:37 -!- cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:21:29 I guess I will rewrite it to use LOOP, since I can't use ITERATE in alexandria code, and it'll be easier to accomodate for either WEIGHTING-KEY or WEIGHTS this way 20:21:30 and I find LOOP to be nicer for nested iteration. 20:22:25 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 20:22:37 mathrick: Would weights be a sequence of weights equal in length to seq? 20:23:00 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:23:18 tmh: exactly 20:24:07 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:53 mathrick: There is another consideration. If you have a very large sequence of floats that would exceed most-positive-*-float, for example, but the average would not, you need to perform some sort of scaled addition so that you actually get an answer. It's a corner case, but could happen. 20:24:53 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.234.119] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:25:28 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:25:33 tmh: I dunno really how I'd go about it 20:25:36 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 20:25:58 I'm not even sure if it's possible to do without bending over backwards 20:26:03 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 20:26:38 I'd have to do a pre-run to get the sum of weights first 20:26:58 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:27:38 mathrick: Look at sumsq at line 151 -> https://github.com/OdonataResearchLLC/floating-point/blob/master/error-analysis.lisp 20:28:12 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:17 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:23 Ugh, looking at that code makes me realize I need to not use EXPT for an exponent of 2. Anyways. I pulled that approach from the BLAS. 20:28:25 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host9-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:28:56 Also, that code represents my early coding style, I don't think I'd do it that way not. 20:29:50 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:29:53 tmh: you can link to lines directly on github: https://github.com/OdonataResearchLLC/floating-point/blob/master/error-analysis.lisp#L152 20:30:05 just click on the line # on the left 20:30:13 tmh: sbcl will optimize (expt x 2) to (* x x) 20:30:28 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:31:02 mathrick: Oh, cool. stassats Yeah, SBCL is awesome. 20:31:42 ASau [~user@95-27-129-85.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:33:16 mathrick: For example, you would have (scaled-sum seq) => scale sumscale then the average = (/ scale weights) sumscale 20:33:20 Something like that. 20:33:28 -!- csamuelson [~user@adsl-240-246-114.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:33:31 if I have a SUMMING clause in LOOP, may I assume the value will be well-defined and reflecting the latest added value in subsequent lines during the LOOP's execution? 20:33:36 (/ scale weights) * sumscale 20:33:52 "Certain kinds of accumulation clauses can be combined in a loop if their destination is the same (the result of loop or an into var) because they are considered to accumulate conceptually compatible quantities." <-- this makes me think that yes 20:34:08 tmh: yeah, I know. But it's gonna be twice as expensive 20:34:15 (extra / in addition to *) 20:34:56 hmm, wait, do I actually need the SUMMING value? No, I don't, I have no idea why I thought I would 20:34:56 mathrick: but numerically more stable? 20:35:23 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:35:27 ehu: really? It's some kind of new arithmetics if more divisions make the result more stable :) 20:35:56 division and subtraction are two operations to avoid if you actually care about stability 20:35:57 mathrick: You don't have to divide by the scale every time. You can multiply by 1/scale than just divide everytime you update 1/scale 20:36:33 tmh: I have problems with parsing the second sentence 20:37:54 tmh: and extra multiplication will still be twice as expensive, unless I'm misunderstanding you 20:37:58 mathrick: Instead of dividing every element by scale, store 1/scale and multiply. You have to update scale when you encounter a new element that has greater absolute value, and therefure 1/scale. 20:38:24 mathrick: Yes, but isn't multiplication still cheaper than division? 20:38:25 tmh: huh, and how will that be accurate for the elements I've already scaled? 20:38:30 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:59 tmh: on floats it probably isn't, though FPU characteristics is not exactly my forte 20:39:03 -!- brodo [~brodo@141.99.224.34] has quit [Quit: brodo] 20:39:05 mathrick: really? I thought it was important to keep values close to each other, or close in a certain range if you care about numerical stability (if the algorithm and values allow it, of course). I'm not seeing how division and subtraction would necessarily prevent that. 20:39:12 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.34.54.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:27 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:27 Can't remember if define-compiler-macro can be used on CL functions, but if so, any lisp can convert (expt x 2) to (* x x). 20:39:36 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:53 rtoym: do you have access to the Maxima wiki? 20:39:59 rtoym: I was just reading up on that and it's not recommended. 20:40:17 ehu: I don't think so. Want something changed? 20:40:19 ehu: not really. It is important to have the values not wildly different, but way more important is to keep subtractions and, above all, divisions to minimum 20:40:37 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 20:40:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 20:40:41 -!- sixpoint8 [sixpoint8@d-ip-129-15-78-81.cs.ou.edu] has quit [Quit: the world is ending] 20:40:51 rtoym: yes. I'd like ABCL to appear in the ports list :-) 20:41:02 How does division hurt a sum? (Other than adding an additional rounding operation) 20:41:07 they're two operations most sensitive to numerical unstabilities, and they're more sensitive the closer the values to each other / zero 20:41:08 mathrick: When you update scale, you update the scaled-sum, it's the then form in the example I showed. 20:41:12 rtoym: no, you're not allowed 20:41:15 preferably for all platforms, including an "Others" platform :-) 20:41:34 tmh: lemme re-read that 20:42:24 stassats: Too bad. 20:43:18 rtoym: I think the rationale was that if you define a compiler-macro for a CL function, you might shadow one in the implementation. 20:44:19 ehu: Doesn't look like I have access to maxima's wiki. 20:44:25 tmh: for future reference, ~ doesn't work in string literals, including docstrings. It's only applicable in FORMAT 20:44:25 valium97582 [~daniel@187.34.54.222] has joined #lisp 20:44:37 rtoym: ok. I'll try to find another victim. 20:44:41 thanks for trying. 20:45:29 mathrick: Thanks. 20:45:39 mathrick: How is division sensitive to numerical instabilities? And why is more sensitive than and addition, say? Both should produce exactly one rounding operation and should always be rounded to the nearest value closest to the exact result. 20:46:10 ehu: Can't you create your own account? 20:46:22 sure. but it's only this once... 20:46:51 I'll use it as my "last resort". 20:46:52 ehu: Oh. Then, maybe I'll create my own account.... 20:47:00 rtoym: I had numerical methods way too long ago to remember the particulars, but it is. It's not about common sense or intuition, it's about how the binary arithmetics behaves in practice 20:48:49 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-66-210-110.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:48:51 ehu: abcl runs "everywhere" there's a java implementation, right? (Just wondering under what section I should put that.) 20:49:06 rtoym: yes :-) 20:49:11 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:11 I wondered that too. 20:49:24 maybe under the section of Virtual Machines? 20:49:29 nasstop [~hobo@cpe-74-69-38-24.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:40 -!- nasstop [~hobo@cpe-74-69-38-24.rochester.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:49:42 Bronsa [~brace@host9-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:50:10 ehu: email me the version of abcl and maxima, and I'll put it somewhere on that page. 20:51:29 mathrick: I respectfully disagree, if we're talking about IEEE FP arithmetic. All the basic operations (in round to nearest) are supposed to produce the representable number that is closest to the exact true answer. 20:51:52 Pip [~Pip@unaffiliated/pip] has joined #lisp 20:52:44 jacobian [~jacobian@79.97.150.114] has joined #lisp 20:52:48 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:25 tmh: hmm, you wouldn't happen to have a VARIANCE somewhere in that code, would you? Since I just happen to need that... 20:54:01 mathrick: No, sorry. 20:54:07 oh well 20:55:28 LiamH [~healy@vpn219118.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 20:56:38 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host9-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:58:03 Ah, calculating an accurate variance takes a bit of work. Can't just use sum of squares minus sum of terms. 20:58:34 And you also get to decide whether you wanted a biased or unbiased estimate. 20:58:59 rtoym: that's exactly what I don't know, since I don't normally deal in statistics :( 20:59:47 tmh: okay, so I looked at that code, and you're doing bad things to stability, since you're repeatedly scaling a number that's already been scaled 21:00:09 and I don't really see how that'd make anything cheaper, so I'll just use the pre-run thing 21:00:31 Xach: aroundp 21:00:48 hmm, OTOH, I might not have the sum-of-weights ahead of time 21:00:50 bah 21:01:00 brodo [~brodo@p5B0228E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:25 rtoym: so how'd I go about deciding which one I want, and then calculating it? 21:02:32 mathrick: I admit up front that it's not the best, it's only to illustrate the approach. That code is pretty much a direct port from BLAS, the scaled number only gets scaled again if the scale is updated. I didn't put much thought into that code beyond reading the BLAS. 21:02:45 fair enough 21:03:22 mathrick: The biased/unbiased problems goes away if you have a relatively large number of samples. The most accurate way is probably to compute sum (x-mean)^2. Looks like you have to scan the data twice, but it's possible to compute them by scanning the data just once. Knuth describes this. 21:03:30 rtoym: code committed on October 4th, 2010 should be in the 5.23 release, right? 21:03:38 -!- FirewalkR [~firewalkr@a85-138-104-212.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:03:54 ehu: Yes. The 5.23 release was Dec 1 or so. 21:04:11 rtoym: ah, bummer, don't have knuth on the shelf. But I have terribly small sample sizes, so I'll have to choose 21:04:15 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:39 stassats: ahoy 21:05:22 mathrick: Then scanning twice isn't a bottleneck. I'd just choose the biased (divide by n, not n-1) version then too. But I am not a statistician. 21:05:29 Xach: (in-context vecto) my 1-pixel lines doesn't look 1-pixel 21:05:42 is that expected? 21:06:53 rtoym: right. It shouldn't be a problem, since I'm already calculating the mean, and I don't need it to be blazingly fast right now. Just working 21:09:27 stassats: that's an effect of sampling. if it's a horizontal or vertical line, start it at 0.5 of the pixel to avoid sampling in multiple rows or columns. 21:10:19 20.5 instead of 21? 21:10:38 that seems to work 21:10:44 stassats: or 21.5 perhaps, depending on what you want to see 21:12:37 does it do calculations in floats? or is (+ 20 1/2) better? 21:12:42 huangho [~vitor@201-66-210-110.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 21:13:51 and i really wish vecto had readers for parameters, like get-line-width 21:14:17 stassats: I think cl-vectors keeps the original numeric type for a long time, so using rationals will probably make things a lot slower but not look much better. 21:15:57 stassats: I profiled once and using a specialized vector of floats as the point type (instead of a cons) sped things up by 25% or so. 21:20:12 Xach: and would even-numbered lines look always ok for integer coordinates? 21:20:44 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-128-254.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:21:36 stassats: if there was no transformation matrix in effect, yes. 21:21:57 alright, thanks 21:22:22 *Xach* can't wait to see the cool chart 21:22:30 *stassats* goes back drawing dull-axis with dull-labels for dull-plots 21:25:27 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:25:53 -!- LiamH [~healy@vpn219118.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:27:28 dmytrish__ [~dmytrish@88.154.57.158] has joined #lisp 21:28:16 gozoner [~ebg@64.134.236.242] has joined #lisp 21:35:23 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:35:59 EarlGray [~dmytrish@91.145.239.106] has joined #lisp 21:36:01 mega1_ [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 21:36:39 -!- dmytrish__ [~dmytrish@88.154.57.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:37:03 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:38:32 csamuelson [~user@adsl-240-246-114.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:55 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:11 -!- splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Is 'dull' the next 'trivial'?] 21:43:03 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@91.145.239.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:09 EarlGray [~dmytrish@79.124.138.91] has joined #lisp 21:43:51 -!- mega1_ [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:44:05 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:47:36 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:55 kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:04 I just don't know when to quit... 21:48:25 never 21:48:44 When to quit is usually only obvious in hindsight. 21:48:46 ... if then. 21:48:48 asdf upgrade passed the nil hurdle, now SOMETHING is trying to compile the file memory.c by telling gcc to compile the file memory... 21:49:03 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:11 for me, the not quitting is part of the learning curve 21:49:18 if I quit, I'll stop learning 21:49:22 konr [~user@ira.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has joined #lisp 21:49:26 Good answer. 21:49:27 so, could so, I don't know when to stop learning :) 21:49:32 never quit if you want to win 21:49:53 you stop learning when you're dead 21:49:54 s/so/say 21:50:09 "You only fail if you give up now." 21:50:09 stassats, no, you die the day you stop learning :P 21:50:17 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-179-92.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 21:50:26 OT: if i want to read the foundation triology by asimov, which books do i need to buy? i only see "foundation" and "second foundation" 21:50:27 "Live and learn, die and forget. Unless you're an expert system." 21:50:37 Okay, I admit it, the rest reporting for lisp-unit sucks. Need to find the time to improve it. 21:50:43 s/rest/test/ 21:50:45 brodo, start with foundation IIRC 21:50:51 brodo: All, what, seven or so books in the trilogy? 21:51:10 nyef, no no no, isn't that Douglas Adams? 21:51:14 :) 21:51:29 Saturnation: never stop learning, but it's OK to shift focus now and then. 21:51:43 Saturnation: To a lesser degree, yes. 21:51:55 nyef: there is also "Foundation and Empire" 21:52:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_series wow, really is seven boosk... 21:52:13 brodo: Yes, and "Foundation and Earth", and a small pile of others. 21:52:29 rezna [~Miranda@188.175.119.2] has joined #lisp 21:52:34 pretty sure I would have read all 7 L O N G ago 21:52:41 ah, ok 21:52:44 Not to mention that it backs onto both the Galactic Empire stories and the Robot novels. 21:53:11 ack, no, I think I only read 5 of the 7 21:53:21 orioriginal triology is: foundation, foundation and empire, second foundation 21:53:25 ah, the robot novels... 21:53:37 original 21:53:44 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:53:47 abezethibou [~user@212.253.227.107] has joined #lisp 21:54:01 ah, I give up... er, changing focus... 21:54:08 Okay, back to reading the Green Dragon book for me. 21:55:11 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:21 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:19 right, give up and then fix the problem :) 21:56:31 hey guys - got a question about using defmethod - I'm quite new to OOP in lisp, so I'm confused with this (defmethod M ((a a) x) ... ) and (defmethod M ((b b) x y) ... ) - I got an compiler-error - that those two are not compatible - but why do they have to be? - I just want to have two classes with method of same name 21:56:45 *Saturnation* used to find solutions to bugs on the way to answering nature calling... 21:57:06 dmytrish [~dmytrish@79.124.170.92] has joined #lisp 21:57:14 rezna: generic functions define the lambda list. methods must use congruent lambda lists. classes do not own methods. 21:57:44 xach, isn't OO in Lisp more about message passing? 21:57:49 Saturnation: No. 21:57:52 damn 21:58:01 No, that's Smalltalk. 21:58:11 from the point of view that the type of message determine the method used? 21:58:22 maybe? 21:58:29 Xach: ah - so it's not the same as in other languages :/ - so i have to have different names for those defmethod's, sure? 21:58:35 (Which is kindof funny, given its educational ambitions... Passing messages in class?) 21:59:33 nowadays kids sms in class, i guess 21:59:42 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:00:02 stassats: they sms at the toilet as well i think ;) 22:00:31 *Saturnation* is beginning to suspect that ASDF has changed a bit since the last time clg was "maintained"... 22:00:32 rezna: yes. (or they can have the same name in different packages.) 22:00:42 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@79.124.138.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:00:42 -!- gozoner [~ebg@64.134.236.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:01:15 Saturnation: you suspect well 22:01:26 Xach: i'm not going to play with packages at this time - so i'll change the names - thanks 22:01:51 Saturnation: haven't you tried using other GUI libraries? like cl-gtk2, or commonqt? 22:02:12 nope 22:02:35 first attempt at using a GUI and I've got this sudden amazing stubborn streak I didn't know existed... 22:02:39 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:15 rezna: the generic function for those two methods is expecting a lambda list with 2 elements -- assuming you defined the one with (a a) first and have no explicit (defgeneric M ...). The one with (b b) has 3... 22:03:19 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 22:03:37 so the question for my newbie lisp mind is where is there a problem with the error ..."FUNCALL: undefined function ASDF::PATHNAME-SANS-NAME+TYPE" 22:04:15 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@79.124.170.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:55 Saturnation: Reminds me of the guy who went off the road and asked for a chainsaw to clear all the darn trees instead of a map to get back on track. 22:05:13 tsuru: yeah i got it - just a bit amazed with the difference to other languages - but that's ok - i'll change the naming ... 22:05:20 depends on the definition of "on track" 22:05:26 *Saturnation* is on track to learning :P 22:05:53 anyway when speaking about GUI - i'm only familiar with CAPI - is there anything else i can use? 22:06:32 there are commonqt ad cl-gtk2 22:06:34 and 22:06:35 not clg :) 22:06:36 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see] 22:06:44 at least not yet... 22:07:01 there is also mcclim, in which i lost all hope 22:07:48 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:49 Ah, so .asd file as definition files for asdf? 22:08:04 -!- tmh [6c491a1c@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 22:09:02 grouzen [~grouzen@ip21-159.200.109.crimea.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:10 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B0228E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo] 22:11:14 thing I don't see is "who" is trying to call that asdf function... 22:11:43 to me, it looks like asdf is the one doing the loading of the asd files 22:12:27 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:14:15 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:14:44 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.51.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:15:18 dmytrish [~dmytrish@79.124.170.92] has joined #lisp 22:16:22 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.63.153] has joined #lisp 22:17:05 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 22:18:04 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:16 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:34 *Saturnation* thinks he needs to here a version of "The Nips are Getting Bigger" s/Nips/Bugs 22:18:42 -!- abezethibou [~user@212.253.227.107] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18:48 abezethibou [~user@212.253.227.107] has joined #lisp 22:19:11 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:19:16 -!- jdz [~jdz@host89-16-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:21:30 *Saturnation* gives up and looks into SDL :) 22:21:38 -!- Pip [~Pip@unaffiliated/pip] has left #lisp 22:22:02 lispbuilder-sdl is trivially easy to get going on linux+sbcl. 22:23:48 brodo [~brodo@p5B0228E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:53 xach, doesn't sound like its for me than :) 22:24:47 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:24:58 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:02 Sounds like you should get clx and write your own toolkit. 22:25:37 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:40 -!- johanbev [~johanbev@159.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:25:45 johanbev [~johanbev@159.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:47 wow, so gffi, part of clg redefines basic types?!?! 22:26:06 (deftype byte () '(unsigned-byte 8)) 22:26:18 that seems like a bad thing, but with the in-package, should it really matter? 22:26:30 Saturnation: perhaps that byte is not cl:byte 22:27:09 Saturnation: clisp won't allow it if it is. 22:28:02 not that my understand is any where complete, but shouldn't something defined after (in-package "FOO") not be in cl:? 22:28:07 -!- abezethibou [~user@212.253.227.107] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:28:20 that would be foo:byte and not cl:byte? 22:28:21 Saturnation: not if you :USE cl 22:28:49 because then a reference to 'BYTE will be the same as 'CL:BYTE, unless you shadow that symbol 22:29:20 beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118915#1 <-- a new version, but I dislike the huge floating error it generates in LARGE-SUM mode. Improvements welcome 22:29:26 I think the root of the problem is that clg is redefining the FFI package. :( 22:29:30 pnq [~nick@172.129.216.93] has joined #lisp 22:29:58 OK, I've learned enough about clg now... 22:30:46 *mathrick* suggests looking at cl-gtk2 22:31:33 Saturnation: clg is quite old, pre-CFFI and possibly pre-UFFI too 22:31:36 mathrick: maybe "what i say to you three times is true" will work in this case 22:32:07 looking into cl-gtk2, but need to shift to sbcl now... 22:32:33 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B0228E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:39 Saturnation: do you use quicklisp? 22:32:43 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01143a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:49 am now 22:32:57 Saturnation: it works fine on CLISP, but the REPL experience is sub-par, as you won't be able to interact with it while it's running the main loop 22:33:02 That will make it pretty easy to get cl-gtk2 22:33:04 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:07 unless you use the recent, multithreaded CLISP 22:33:25 recent as it latest release? 22:33:58 4.48 or something 22:34:02 probably still the latest 22:34:25 GNU CLISP 2.49 22:34:32 sure about that? :) 22:34:56 2.48 (2009-07-28) 22:35:00 lol 22:35:05 "Multiple threads of execution are now experimentally supported (not ready for prime time yet)." 22:35:12 4.48 CLISP must be great :P 22:35:31 thanks for all the help, off to eat... 22:35:45 hmm, already marked as away 22:35:56 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:36:07 Saturnation: "When this functionality is present, *FEATURES* contains the symbol :MT." 22:36:10 that's how you'll know 22:42:07 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:42:08 -!- konr [~user@ira.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:39 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:47:11 JOIN #ruby 22:47:22 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-66-210-110.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:47:57 BrandLeeJones: i refuse! 22:48:20 that's beyond my dignity! 22:48:59 i'm sorry 22:50:23 snearch [~snearch@f053009197.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:45 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:51:03 JOIN #thenavy 22:51:21 Good morning everyone! 22:51:41 good morning beach 22:51:43 hi beach 22:51:47 drawing labels for graphs is harder than drawing graphs 22:51:50 more than i expected 22:52:06 mynick [~brodo@p5B0228E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:23 -!- mynick [~brodo@p5B0228E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:01 mynick [~brodo@p5B0228E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:47 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip21-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:55:20 -!- csamuelson [~user@adsl-240-246-114.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:57:46 -!- mynick [~brodo@p5B0228E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:13 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-179-92.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:42 brodo [~brodo@p5B0228E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:42 mathrick: Contrary to common belief, I am actually not working on Alexandria, even though I think it is a good project. But if I were, I would not accept your second version. It has indentation and performance problems that are easy to fix. 23:04:11 beach: care to elaborate? 23:04:13 mathrick: I just woke up from a bad dream about being in front of a group of students who didn't understand the importantce of being productive, so right now I am not willing to let things like bad indentation pass. Especially not from you. :) 23:04:22 also, you're listed as one of the members of the project! 23:04:35 I know. That's what I meant by "common belief". 23:04:44 you might want to update the page then :) 23:04:50 but still, what are the problems? 23:05:36 mathrick: One WHEN and two IF badly indented. 23:05:53 mathrick: using elt is bad when you have a list. 23:06:15 beach: IF is not badly indented, it's a very conscious decision. It's the emacs style, and I like it much better than the flush style 23:06:27 otherwise IFs are hard to read 23:06:41 I mean, you might not like it, but it's not a mistake 23:06:51 mathrick: `for elem in' works only on lists. 23:06:57 bad indentation in source code? does that even matter? o_O 23:07:08 beach: as for WHEN, blame LOOP for being insane and SLIME breaking 23:07:15 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:07:17 Landr: Your life in in danger this morning... :) 23:07:25 Landr: the next M-q makes it all look the same anyway 23:07:26 huh, _this_ is hard to read 23:07:32 mathrick: I would do a special version for lists and vectors. 23:07:40 beach: i'm sure there are plenty of programs that automatically turn source code into your preferred style :P 23:07:54 Landr: You are pushing your luck. 23:08:05 :< 23:08:15 beach: hmm, so no in-sequence? 23:08:20 does LOOP even have that? 23:08:36 mathrick, thanks ... (member :MT *FEATURES*) -> nil 23:08:37 mathrick: Nope. It's IN for lists and ACROSS for vectors. 23:08:46 Landr: there's slime indentation, which is basically the rule of the land 23:09:00 beach: eww 23:09:47 mathrick: And I would make a special version for combinations of weights and weighting-key, and I would write a compiler macro to recognize when those cases are used at compile time. 23:09:52 it's sort of icky that I can't conditionalise LOOP clauses 23:10:13 beach: mhm, sounds sensible for a general purpose version 23:10:25 I'll postpone that then, I need to get working code tonight 23:10:33 mathrick: I would write several versions, and then have the main function (or the compiler macro) select one. 23:10:48 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:10:48 mathrick: I'm not sure about this function, but given that such a function should be added, I'd call it MEAN-AVERAGE (current name is too ambiguous) and add :start/:end like other sequence functions. 23:11:24 adeht: does it even make sense to distinguish :START/:END for mean? 23:11:44 mathrick: Oh, and I would work on the docstring. I wouldn't use formula such as "the standard meaning". 23:11:44 mathrick: note: not :from-end 23:12:24 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B0228E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:29 mathrick: :start/:end just limit the subsequence used. That makes sense. 23:13:13 tcr had some nice presentation about helper operators for defining sequence functions.. 23:13:19 *beach* gets coffee. Perhaps that will fix his bad mood after the nightmare. 23:13:39 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 23:14:55 adeht: ah, sorry, I can't read 23:15:03 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:15:04 adeht: url? 23:15:55 http://common-lisp.net/project/sequence-iterators/ 23:15:58 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01143a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:17:31 Landr: Oh, you are a newbie. Probably never programmed in your entire life, right? So you don't know that using good indentation is how you increase the productivity of your maintainers. I'm sorry, I should use my pedagogical approach instead then when I talk to you. But it shall have to wait until I wake up. 23:17:39 *stassats* drawing dull graphs with vecto: http://common-lisp.net/~sboukarev/dull-graph.png 23:18:02 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-85-162.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:18:20 stassats: Dull, indeed. 23:18:51 now that i look it, labels seem wrong too 23:19:00 dull and wrong, sigh 23:19:09 beach: i have programmed, though never in a collaborative project, no :P 23:19:29 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 23:19:47 Landr: That maintainer is typically yourself a few weeks or months or years later. Same problem. 23:20:07 in that case comments, rather than indentation, would seem more helpful 23:20:17 mathrick: also check out https://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/misc.lisp#L195 for some ideas (of course it's a rather simplistic interface) 23:20:19 beach: that's why I chose to use the "wrong" IF indentation :) 23:20:22 Landr: Definitely not! 23:20:27 like ;;; this code is terrible, don't look at it 23:20:48 mathrick: But then you should probably submit it to yourself instead :) 23:21:02 that's how i treat most of my code ^_^ "it works, now forget about it and don't poke it" 23:21:19 that works until it doesn't 23:21:22 Landr: A comment should never be used as an excuse for not working hard enough on the code. 23:21:41 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:21:48 given that indentation doesn't require any work at all 23:22:04 so it's impossible for a program to do the indentation in the manner you'd like it to be? 23:22:30 beach: nono, I am sane enough to accept the idea of project coding style, and didn't oppose that (contrary to what you might think). I was just pointing out that it wasn't a mistake by any means, and personally I find it way more readable 23:22:41 Landr: Again, it has to do with maintenance. If you knew how many (profesionally-written even) programs I have seen where the comment is incorrect with respect to the code, as a result of maintenance. 23:22:43 in lisp, there is only one manner, so no need for such programs 23:22:55 stassats: incorrect 23:22:56 mathrick: Got it! 23:23:01 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:04 which manner? :< 23:23:07 we can have proper automatic indentation, because we have basically one standard 23:23:10 *Landr* doesn't know it, two spaces indent? 23:23:22 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:23:28 Landr: err, no, not really 23:23:38 Landr: No, "whatever Emacs suggests" basically. 23:23:41 Two spaces for PROGN bodies, certainly. 23:23:44 konr [~user@ira.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has joined #lisp 23:23:46 use slime, C-x h C-M-\ 23:23:50 that's the standard 23:24:01 but i don't like/use emacs :< 23:24:09 that's in Emacs, not in slime 23:24:21 stassats: slime is an emacs package though 23:24:36 well, that's emacs which does indentation 23:24:46 Landr: Then you will spend your life indenting manually, which is error prone. 23:25:02 although, slime advices it on &body for macros, otherwise it would work without slime 23:25:04 stassats: but it asks slime, and it's not insignificant that it does 23:25:08 [Not to say unproductive] 23:25:12 mathrick: it does not 23:25:23 stassats: does on &body, as you mention 23:25:42 well, "ask" in an informal sense 23:25:57 slime tells emacs without emacs asking! 23:26:15 tirinim. 23:26:19 dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@79.124.170.92] has joined #lisp 23:26:43 what's tirinim? 23:26:53 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@79.124.170.92] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:55 Landr: vim guy? 23:27:12 stassats: a type of fish 23:27:24 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-85-162.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 23:27:25 valium97582: no, scite =P 23:27:34 what has it got to do with lisp? 23:27:35 Landr: eww, scite 23:27:50 hey, i don't judge you code, you don't judge the way i code 23:27:55 +how 23:28:14 Landr: then what's left for us to do? 23:28:19 Landr: You are never going to become a good programmer with that attitude. 23:28:23 sit and talk about fish? 23:28:36 we could code and trust the other party to deal with their end of the program? :> 23:29:01 stassats: you'r very emotional today. something happened lately? 23:29:07 Landr: Becomeing a good programmer is about exposing your nastiest habits to the public, and then learn from their comments. 23:29:16 i'm not saying you can't judge code, just not how i do it, what my preferred font or editor or operating system is 23:30:04 v0|d: can you answer my question, without enquiring about my emotions? 23:30:30 Landr: But one day, you are going to submit code that is badly indented (because you did it manually), and that is unacceptable. 23:30:47 stassats: only if you ask properly. 23:31:04 go head. 23:31:11 Landr: But sure, just never submit any code to anyone. Also never get a job that requires programming. 23:31:34 v0|d: what the word "tirinim", you keep mentioning, has got do with Lisp? 23:31:36 i'm sure i wouldn't want a job where i was judged on the amount of spaces and braces >.> 23:32:02 Landr: Again, then don't get a job where programming is part of it. 23:32:12 zzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 23:32:17 (I didn't remember Common Lisp had braces...) 23:32:28 errr, parentheses 23:32:30 or get a job where you have to programm in python! 23:32:43 hello lispers. if anyone is interested pasted a patch for slime-repl 23:32:45 hey i've heard google uses python. 23:32:50 is it tru? 23:33:20 mon_key: where? 23:33:23 v0|d: that's off-topic, please stop 23:33:25 http://paste.lisp.org/+2JRA 23:33:33 fe[nl]ix: t 23:33:34 with it , can complete ? 23:35:16 mon_key: but should it? 23:35:21 yes 23:35:25 absolutely 23:35:52 As best I can tell Its been broken for awhile 23:36:13 "yes, absolutely" doesn't convince me 23:36:25 What happens in your slime when you type , 23:36:34 er slime repl 23:36:39 i get a prompt 23:36:50 "Command: " right? 23:36:55 yes 23:36:59 try to type ? 23:37:05 it shows me help 23:37:20 help for what? 23:37:29 for everything 23:37:34 emacs help? 23:37:46 mon_key: it shows the possible completions 23:37:57 -!- dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@79.124.170.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:38:01 shows the possible completions for what? 23:38:10 for everything 23:38:18 for shortcuts 23:38:28 Typing "?" is supposed to show you the slime-repl-shortcuts buffer 23:38:39 -!- xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4d0c9c95.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: xraycat] 23:38:53 As it is right now it just loops 23:40:05 e.g. if you instead type , then complete to ! 23:40:20 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:40:41 hmm, it's possible I get my expected behavior because I didn't update slime for a while and have some local modifications 23:41:05 adeht: i get the same behaviour as yours 23:41:17 Emacs askes for a symbol for defparameter 23:41:22 i see what mon_key is talking about, ? is an alias for help, perhaps it should be 23:42:01 *Landr* sighs and gives slime another try 23:42:08 yes, defslime-repl-shortcut slime-repl-shortcut-help 23:42:18 I've been using slime on/off for a few years and never new about that feature until today 23:43:15 IOW noobs (myself included) can't gain access to learing what repl shortcuts apply because there isn't a clear way to access the cheatsheet 23:43:42 and the completions are exactly verbose... 23:43:43 stassats: well, thinking about it ? could indeed switch to the help buffer instead of completions, which are already covered using TAB or whatever 23:43:57 yep 23:44:13 adeht: but that's what every other completion is doing, so i'd rather have consistency 23:44:37 stassats: wasn't aware of this 23:45:00 stassats: which completins? 23:45:01 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:45:08 i'll remove ? alias as not to confuse anyone 23:45:13 mon_key: emacs completions 23:45:31 if you remove ? it doesn't really fix the problem 23:45:46 it removes the problem! 23:45:46 mon_key: but `help' shows the help buffer 23:46:08 dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@79.124.170.92] has joined #lisp 23:46:20 stassats: but ? is standard for gaining help! 23:46:33 mon_key: try `C-x f ?' 23:46:35 well, it shows you all possible completions, including help 23:46:57 it's bound to minibuffer-completion-help 23:47:34 so, ? would be short help, and help would be long help 23:47:43 IIUC the repl shortcuts have a long history of being terse 23:47:51 e.g. *, **, *** etc 23:48:03 or scheme48 shortcuts 23:48:06 these aren't repl shortcuts 23:48:22 They are intended to emulate them 23:48:49 they are? 23:49:09 mon_key: maybe you're talking about aclrepl style shortcuts 23:49:20 :) the macro is called defslime-repl-shortcut 23:50:33 so at the repl typing "cl-user> ," brings up a completion mini 23:50:52 there is no other option AFAIK 23:50:54 hrmpf, why isn't E defined by the standard? PI is not enough! 23:51:05 i can add "Type help to get descriptions of commands" annotation for , 23:51:22 mathrick: (exp 1) 23:51:39 stassats: ahhh, I forgot there's EXP besides EXPT 23:51:41 thanks 23:52:10 aaaand not a clue how to start it, typical 23:53:03 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-5-64.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:53:06 stassats: what about changing "?" to "h" 23:53:48 h works already 23:54:03 Landr: Typical of what? 23:54:10 stassats: for what 23:54:16 for help! 23:54:46 no it doesn't it just reinitializes the completion loop to read the next character which is `e' 23:54:53 slime/emacs, it's just too complex for me 23:55:08 Landr: Don't use it then. 23:55:09 I am suggesting allowing ,h 23:55:15 it's allowed 23:55:19 ? 23:55:24 have you tried it? 23:55:31 and talking about "?" is confusing 23:55:46 yes, i will try again 23:55:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-125.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:05 "call-interactively: Wrong type argument: arrayp" 23:56:30 what emacs version? 23:56:34 stassats: "?" isn't my invention its been in slime for years. 23:57:04 and it didn't work for years, so nobody will notice its removal 23:57:07 Landr: Look, programming is about complex things, and about the process of constantly having to learn new such complex things. Get used to it, or consider a different activity. 23:57:34 stassats: ok "h" works, I was running the old code. 23:58:34 stassats: The other thing about stealing back "?" is that it allows users to attach other commands to it. E.g. ?frob, ?bar, ?goo 23:58:38 ok, i committed removing of ? 23:58:50 stassats: thanks 23:59:20 thanks? but that's not what you wanted!