00:00:05 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:11 mon_key: no, it'd be the same 00:00:33 mon_key: if you assume a particular ranged signed/unsigned byte, declare it as such 00:00:33 -!- Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-128.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:01:04 so a deftype body like this is silly: `(integer ,(lognot array-dimension-limit) ,array-dimension-limit) 00:01:36 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:01:52 mon_key: for that I would use alexandria:array-index 00:01:59 (mod array-dimension-limit) wouldn't be silly for an array index 00:02:28 adeht: ( : yes, well imitation/flattery and all... 00:02:46 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:03:43 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:03:48 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:38 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:04:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:05:04 maybe I'm asking the wrong channel but.... do I need libxpm when I download/install Emacs? 00:05:17 Flinx: you're asking the wrong channel. try #emacs. 00:05:22 kay 00:05:24 willdo :) 00:05:32 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:06:15 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08:02 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-170-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:08:04 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-163-50.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:09:24 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:09:25 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 00:10:45 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 00:11:28 adeht: OK now i remember why i'm asking. 00:11:32 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:34 In sbcl/src/code/early-extensions there is the `index' deftype. 00:11:43 The comments say something about `array-dimension-limit' being an exclusive bound according to ANSI. 00:11:50 That limiting the bounds the compiler doesn't have to worry about bignums. 00:12:32 thanks guys! I'll be back if I have Lisp-specific questions :) 00:13:11 -!- Flinx [~Flinx@c-68-33-142-62.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:13:16 adeht: So, I was assuming that declaring a fixnum inside the same range was kinda "portable". 00:13:41 mon_key: it's anything but portable.. you're looking at the code of a specific implementation 00:14:19 so array-dimension-limit has no relation to fixnums outside SBCL? 00:14:31 correct 00:14:45 welll 00:14:49 well, the spec says it's a "positive fixnum" 00:14:49 it is specified to be a fixnum. 00:15:10 Xach: This is the nature of my conundrum. 00:15:46 mon_key: you didn't that comment right, it's says that array-dimension-limit is one less than most-positive-fixnum, so that (1+ array-dimension-limit) always results in a fixnum, so that you don't need to bother with bignum checking 00:16:08 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-173.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:30 so it was a shortcut to avoid introspection at compile time on the nature of a bignum? 00:16:45 Of an array index, yes. 00:17:03 There's also a defined lower bound on this upper bound. 00:17:11 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:17:26 OH! yeah, good point. 00:18:43 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:19:08 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:19:47 Said lower bound is around the 1024 mark, though. 00:20:01 So I should learn that there is little utility in declaring fixnum. 00:20:19 no, there is a great utility in declaring fixnum 00:20:23 mon_key: the FIXNUM-NON-PORTABLE issue gives historical reasons for the decision of specifying it as a fixnum. I can't judge this decision, but for my part I would never use fixnum declaration 00:21:51 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:37 Typically, by the time I'm ready to add declarations to my program, I already know the bounds of the integers more accurately than merely to FIXNUM width. 00:23:20 declaring something as fixnum is like saying: I want to eat a vegetable 00:23:21 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 00:23:22 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.207] has joined #lisp 00:23:44 I'm trying to understand what is a a good conservative way to perform some type constraints. 00:24:05 -!- fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-163-50.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:24:22 constraints? 00:24:29 you may get a vegetable, but it may be rotten (or, to use today's buzzword, stale) or not.. 00:24:40 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:24:49 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 00:24:57 mon_key: valid array indexes are always fixnums. 00:25:25 -!- qzg [~qzg@64.19.13.162.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 00:25:41 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-39-80.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:25:56 positive fixnums 00:26:11 So, just let the compiler figure it out? 00:27:01 0 is not positive, but a valid array index 00:27:21 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 00:27:55 If i tell the compiler i'm expecting some type to be there she will tell me back when i lied to her. Ikinda like this 00:28:38 Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 00:28:42 it won't tell you 00:28:46 Declarations are a promise the programmer makes to the compiler. 00:29:01 "of course i'll call you" 00:29:37 the consequences are undefined if you've broken your promise 00:30:17 So, when slime/swank C-c C-o reporst no notes, no warnings I'm still not safe? 00:30:33 you are never safe 00:30:38 :) 00:31:34 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:32:57 Thanks all for the input. 00:35:29 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 00:36:24 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:38:53 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 00:39:36 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-163-50.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 00:40:06 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:43:50 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.145] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:43:58 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 00:44:02 -!- fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-163-50.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:46:41 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:48:19 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:52:17 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BD9B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:52:24 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 00:55:31 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-118.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 00:56:28 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.151] has joined #lisp 00:58:22 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-163-50.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 01:07:17 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:51 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:11 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:14:44 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 01:15:19 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:41 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:23 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:22:26 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.151] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 01:22:39 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 01:22:41 could someone help me understand this assignment? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/324167/ 01:22:49 which is similar to this assignment: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/exercises/lisp-exs.html#tconc 01:23:10 these are the functions and operators i'm allowed to use: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/324163/ 01:23:59 in particular, what i don't understand is how something like line 40 of the original assignment could work without traversing the entire (B C) list 01:24:35 lisp doesn't have pointers... and this is a real list and not an array... but the whole point is to make appending to the end of the list not require traversing the entire list 01:24:42 and i really don't see how that's possible 01:24:46 pattern: The CDR of the "TCONC" points to the last CONS in the list. 01:25:03 how can it point if lisp has no pointers? 01:25:20 i can see how it could be a *copy* of the last cons in the list 01:25:34 no! 01:25:41 That is, (LCONC TC '(D E F)) => ((B C D E . #1=(F)) #1#) 01:25:44 but not how it can point to the last cons in the list, such that i could append to the cdr of the tconc and thereby append to the list 01:26:06 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:26:15 lisp has pointers 01:26:20 Good morning everyone! 01:26:24 nyef: i'm not familiar with that # syntax 01:26:25 Hello spiaggia. 01:26:30 clhs ## 01:26:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm 01:26:30 or references, or whatever you call them 01:26:36 clhs #= 01:26:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm 01:27:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:27:38 ok.. so lisp does have pointers 01:27:45 but i haven't learned about them in this book yet 01:27:58 so i'm pretty sure i can't use them.. at least not through the #= syntax 01:28:08 Sure, but you don't need to use the syntax. 01:28:23 apparently not.. since that's the assignment 01:28:28 but i still don't get it! :( 01:28:38 otoh, i don't just want the answer.. 01:28:41 #= is not a syntax for _pointers_ 01:28:49 And we don't want to give you the answer. 01:28:51 -!- javuchi [~noname@105.Red-95-123-193.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 01:28:58 nyef: good :) 01:29:17 pointers in lisp are immaterial, you can't touch them 01:29:39 but you can have the same object being in different places at the same time 01:29:41 Here, (setf *print-circle* t), then (cons nil nil) (rplacd * *) 01:30:07 No, you can have the same object being referred to from different places at the same time. 01:30:40 nyef: that's if you learned what a reference is 01:30:44 ... No SETF, no SYMBOL-MACROLET? 01:30:54 this is an old book 01:30:56 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-118.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:30:58 so it uses setq 01:31:10 or at least at this part of the book it's only taught setq 01:31:12 did you consider using modern books? 01:31:13 maybe later it'll get to setf 01:31:27 stassats: sure.. but this is the one i'm reading now 01:31:39 As a general rule, wherever you see SETQ you can use SETF instead. 01:31:47 you can always stop reading 01:32:11 but i like this book.. so far 01:32:12 And then you can use SETF on things other than symbols, such as using (SETF (CAR X) ) instead of using RPLACA. 01:32:39 *pattern* nods 01:32:44 that looks pretty useful 01:33:05 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-195-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:33:47 (TCONC (MAKE-TCONC) 'A) => (#1=(A) #1#) 01:34:15 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:35:10 right.. i understand that the cdr of the tconc cons points to the last element of the list in the car of the tconc 01:35:20 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 01:35:22 i just can't figure out how to make it do that.. 01:35:49 but at least now i know it's possible.. 01:35:49 That's what (SETF CDR), or RPLACD is for. 01:35:58 haven't that book taught you how? 01:36:26 nyef: but in order to (setf cdr) to be useful in this case, won't i have to traverse the whole list in the car of the tconc? 01:36:47 pattern: Why? You have the old value of the CDR handy. 01:36:48 stassats: i guess not.. of myabe i didn't read it carefully enough 01:37:51 nyef: but what good will the old value of the cdr do me since what i want is not the value but the very last cons cell of the car of the conc 01:38:07 also, even if i had the last cons cell of the car of the conc i still don't know how to point to it 01:38:08 grr 01:38:11 That's what you keep /in/ the CDR. 01:38:31 ... draw a boxes-and-arrows diagram? 01:38:32 but it's also kept in the car 01:38:39 Sure, that's not a problem. 01:39:34 hmm 01:39:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:39:50 *pattern* looks up rplacd again.. 01:40:23 There's some cute subtlety to this problem that I'm having trouble remembering, but this spec appears to disallow it. 01:41:39 Had to do with the representation of an empty TCONS and which part of the TCONS contained the head and which contained the tail. 01:41:43 pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:43 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:41:52 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:44:12 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:44:17 Right, if the tail-pointer is in the CAR and the head-pointer is in the CDR, and the empty TCONS is #1=(#1#), then you can unconditionally RPLACD the CONS in the CAR even for emtpy TCONSes. 01:44:32 Saves a special case for if it's empty. 01:45:53 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 01:46:16 Seems to be in contradiction to the (somewhat implicit) spec you have there, though. 01:46:19 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:46:38 Probably due to the empty case being a recursive structure, which doesn't print well by default. 01:49:46 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:16 nyef: when you say "TCONS" are you talking about "TCONC" or something else? 01:50:28 Yes, TCONC, sorry. 01:51:56 i'm still trying to wrap my head around how to get a cdr to point to another cons cell.. 01:53:17 pattern: did nyef's answer above not help? rplacd or (setf cdr)? 01:53:44 (let ((foo (cons 1 2))) (rplacd foo (cons 3 4)) foo) => (1 3 . 4) 01:54:15 hargettp: it did help as far as getting me to go back and re-read the parts of the book dealing with rplacd 01:54:21 i kind of skimmed over those parts.. 01:54:25 :) 01:54:34 and i guess i should now go back and try to throughly understand them.. 01:54:45 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:55:00 You could also try experimenting at the REPL. 01:55:09 yeah, i'm doing that now 01:55:50 thanks for the pointers.. 01:56:01 (in a manner of speaking) 01:56:02 :) 01:56:08 lol 01:56:13 No problem. 01:58:40 Harag [~Harag@41.56.26.163] has joined #lisp 01:58:46 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:36 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:04:22 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:07:10 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 02:09:38 jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:46 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 02:10:29 -!- pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:10:40 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:00 -!- fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-163-50.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:12:42 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-39-80.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 02:13:52 -!- Harag [~Harag@41.56.26.163] has left #lisp 02:16:05 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:17:58 vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.112.161.13] has joined #lisp 02:20:47 jimrthy [~jimrthy@ip68-13-249-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:10 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:24:02 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:26:02 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-9-138.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:27:09 what's the opposite of defvar? i'd like to delete a global variable.. 02:27:26 makunbound 02:27:31 thanks 02:27:41 it doesn't delete it, though 02:27:58 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-118-92.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Quit: bye internet is off] 02:28:28 well, just as long as that name will no longer refer to anything.. 02:28:43 UNITERN may be better 02:28:53 clhs unintern 02:28:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_uninte.htm 02:29:12 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 02:29:54 how's it better? 02:31:50 hmm.. i think i'm seeing a problem with makunbound... 02:32:00 once i've used it on a symbol, i can't defvar it again.. 02:32:16 i don't know what you need, so you'd have to decide what's better for you 02:32:18 (defvar 'a) => "The value 'A is not of type SYMBOL." 02:32:32 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.88.67] has joined #lisp 02:32:35 pattern: that's a malformed defvar 02:32:35 oops 02:32:40 yeah.. i see that now 02:32:54 i hate lisp's quoting rules.. 02:33:08 so hard to keep straight when i need a quote and when i don't.. 02:33:18 there are no quoting rules 02:33:23 pnq [~nick@AC81E0BA.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 02:33:30 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 02:33:55 well, i'm just having problems knowing when i need to quote something and when i don't 02:34:04 you need a quote when you don't want the form to be evaluated, but defvar doesn't evaluate its first argument 02:34:18 clhs defvar 02:34:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm 02:34:26 see "name---a symbol; not evaluated." 02:34:27 pattern: it gets easier :) 02:34:31 _not evaluated_ 02:34:57 hargettp: i hope so.. 02:36:02 basically, function arguments are always evaluated, with special forms and macros you need to check their definition 02:37:04 and i have to remember which is which.. 02:37:20 and then there's stuff like this: (eval (list 'list ''a ''b)) 02:37:23 grrr 02:38:00 there's a handful of special forms, and macros are usually named DEFxxx, or WITH-XXX 02:38:39 pattern: you shouldn't concern yourself with EVAL 02:39:15 i'm not really.. just run in to it occasionally in some books.. 02:39:16 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-9-214.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:39:56 i understand that i should really have a good foundation in the basics before tackling eval 02:39:58 and what things aren't evaluated is pretty consistent too, like variable or function names 02:40:31 yes, when you have a good foundation you have enough reason not to touch EVAL 02:40:41 :) 02:40:42 unless you need to 02:41:53 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:44:45 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.131.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:46:29 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-18-94.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 02:46:41 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:47:28 symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:07 -!- silenius [~silenus@p549466BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:22 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.77.37.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:48:41 another example of how much trouble i'm having with lisp... 02:49:01 my solution to an exercise: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/324192/ 02:49:25 the book's solution: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/324193/ 02:49:51 and this is the description of the problem: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/324194/ 02:49:55 the name of the function is misleading 02:50:09 as you can see.. my solution is totally ridiculous 02:50:18 it works.. but it's a rube-goldberg machine :( 02:50:41 i guess it can be explained by the fact that you don't know lisp well 02:50:53 :( 02:50:56 that's an understatement... :) 02:51:23 *Landr* just doesn't get it 02:51:30 I've been hacking lisp for years now, and I still occasionally badly overbuild things like that. 02:52:06 I usually know when I'm doing it, and try to take a break and then figure out where I went wrong. 02:52:43 yeah.. i knew i was writing a totally overblown solution 02:52:51 Okay, so that's a good start. 02:53:13 and probably if i analyzed it for another hour or two, maybe i could have rearranged it such that it was more elegant 02:53:35 The "taking a break" bit is important, too. 02:53:53 but it's just frustrating to spend so much time just getting any kind of solution, and then see you could have done it in 1/5th of the lines 02:54:02 the most important part of learning is non-learning 02:54:28 well, i've got the non-learning bit down pat ;) 02:54:34 and the best time for it is sleep 02:54:44 But taking the time to actually do the simplification helps you to learn what the simpler ways to do things are. 02:55:04 yeah.. i'd like to take that time 02:55:12 but i already feel like my learning is going so damn slow.. 02:55:19 i want to build useful apps in lisp already! 02:55:29 and i'm still stuck on consing lists together.. :( 02:55:46 Do you at least know how to program in a couple other languages? 02:55:51 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@99.13.242.166] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 02:55:52 sure 02:55:54 you need to be patient 02:56:11 i've been programming since 1980.. i've learned (not always well) over a dozen languages.. 02:56:49 I'm tempted to say that you might do better to find an existing project you're interested in and try to figure out how to make it do something different. 02:56:51 and i don't mean to imply that lisp is the hardest one i've ever learned.. at least not so far.. 02:57:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:57:19 nyef: i think one needs some momentum at first 02:57:27 stassats: Perhaps. 02:57:28 but i guess i just still get frustrated at the slow progress.. 02:58:01 yeah, i've kind of thought about trying to tackle a real project.. but i know i'm not ready for it yet 02:58:05 that's because you forgot that learning other things was slow too 02:58:31 I've always been an advocate of picking a simple, but real, project to start with and just hacking away at it. 02:58:55 But that's probably at least partly because I keep getting dumped in at the deep end. 02:59:40 what works for me is modifying something you already use 02:59:48 There is that. 03:00:03 Or if someone else has thrown together the start of a prototype, so you have the most basic structure already there... 03:00:12 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.88.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:00:21 otherwise i don't have enough motivation 03:00:41 Petzold (of Programming Windows infame) said that his first project for any new language or environment is a hex dumper. 03:00:45 well, another reason i kind of want to postpone starting to work on a real project is that i feel like if i do i won't really get a good grounding in lisp 03:01:05 my knowledge of it will be a patchwork that i'd cobbled together from bits and pieces i needed just for the project 03:01:19 so i kind of want to go through a full book or two on lisp first.. 03:01:27 well, you won't stop after your first project, would you? 03:01:36 true 03:01:38 ... 03:01:55 My knowledge of lisp is a patchwork that I've cobbled together from bits and pieces I needed for the projects I've worked on over the past about eight years. 03:01:56 so, first wouldn't be so great, or maybe even the first version of the same project 03:02:04 pattern: Things usually don't go: 1. Acquire full, perfect knowledge. 2. Use full, perfect knowledge. 03:02:04 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:02:09 but in the process you'll learn something, and again 03:02:20 wait a minute... a symbol, an object, a cons... everything can be made from a structure of two pointers o_O ... so a CELL is the basic building block of all things 03:02:41 Landr: i'm made of cells 03:02:57 ... Is this more KT boosterism? 03:03:04 symbol's car -> name, symbol's cdr -> object, object's car -> type, object's cdr -> actual content... of course! 03:03:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-172.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:04:18 wait for the revelation that everything can be programmed with LAMBDA 03:04:24 cons cells included 03:04:40 lambda lambda lambda 03:04:43 howso? (i'm trying to write a simple lisp thingy in c) 03:04:52 pattern: Seriously, though, the noddy little example problems that most books give out are interesting practice pieces, but they are /nothing/ like the process of working in the language in the large. 03:05:01 Landr: using lambda calculus 03:05:14 i... don't really follow? 03:05:23 how would lambda suffice? 03:05:33 ask Church 03:05:40 he's dead, jim 03:05:42 back to church 03:05:54 Lambda calculus consists of only one-argument lambdas, function application and variables. It's turing-complete. 03:06:16 well yes, I read(am reading) mccarthy's paper on it 03:06:26 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-177-204-134.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:31 "Recursive Functions of Symbolic Expressions 03:06:31 and Their Computation by Machine, Part I 03:06:31 " 03:06:32 -!- jimrthy [~jimrthy@ip68-13-249-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has left #lisp 03:07:14 but even lambda needs primitive functions :P 03:07:20 or how are you going to define an addition? 03:07:29 peano arithmetic? 03:07:30 Ask Church ;P 03:07:41 http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/lambda-calc-div-neg.txt 03:07:45 0''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' is symbolic, but not very useful 03:08:54 a very good lambda calculus tutorial: http://dp.iit.bme.hu/mfp/mfp03s/gjm.lambook88.ps.Z 03:09:00 Landr: lambda mnfx.m f (n f x) 03:09:05 Hmm. Don't know what the problem was, but cmucl builds on solaris86-64 just fine now. It wasn't before. 03:09:17 o_O? 03:09:50 rtoym: then the problem is solve 03:09:50 d 03:10:05 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-206-31.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:10:08 Landr: check out the above tutorial... it goes over addition in lambda calculus and much more.. 03:10:27 i know how lambda calculus works :P i just wonder how it would work in lisp 03:10:35 i mean, on a physical machine and such 03:11:00 the link i gave is in scheme 03:11:16 you still need primitive functions to generate all of lisp's functions 03:12:11 Landr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incompleteness_theorem 03:12:26 >.< flashbacks to bad logic exams 03:12:44 no, you must first create the universe 03:12:53 Hexstream: is it relevant? 03:13:23 stassats: Well, yes, as in, it doesn't make sense to complain that you always need primitives in any system. 03:14:04 you shouldn't need more than lambda 03:14:05 i'm not complaining about that, just wondering which ones they are 03:14:08 pattern: do you know what a list is? 03:14:09 you can build up the rest from there 03:14:18 pattern: fine, build me an addition function from lambda :P 03:14:24 Landr: I already did 03:14:36 Hexstream: well, the incompleteness theorem doesn't object to axioms 03:14:36 :( but i didn't understand it 03:14:45 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qmhdbnhqpqoaehon] has joined #lisp 03:14:46 Landr: once again, take a look in the tutorial... and just adopt the solution there to lisp syntax 03:14:53 pattern: if you can give a correct definition of a list, then you can implement your last exercise trivially. 03:14:57 Landr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding 03:15:25 stassats: Primitives are somewhat equivalent to axioms... 03:15:41 haha 03:15:50 n := lambda f . lambda x . f^n x 03:16:21 you mean i should have a list of infinite numbers, and to do n + m i should just cdr n times, then m times, and then return the car? 03:16:59 Hexstream: they are, but how it explains Landr frustration at that you need to define them first? 03:17:24 i'm not frustrated at primitives, just that i don't know which ones are the primitives 03:17:37 stassats: It's not useful to be frustrated at a law of the universe. 03:17:44 there's 10 defined in a list somewhere, but then there's talk of 25, etc. 03:17:56 Hexstream: what law? 03:17:57 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.87.61.212] has joined #lisp 03:18:07 The incompleteness theorem? 03:18:20 Landr: in the lc? everything is composed of lambda forms 03:18:30 pjb: a list is a series of one or more cons cells, where the cdr of each cons cell points to the car of the next, and the cdr of the last cons cell in the list points to nil... right? 03:18:45 wrong. 03:18:52 i knew it! :( 03:18:52 pattern: The cdr of each cons doesn't point to the car of the next, no. 03:19:01 pattern: it doesn't point to the car of the next one, but to the next one :> 03:19:04 *pattern* makes his 9,999th lisp mistake.. 03:19:10 In lisp, a list is either the symbol NIL, representing the empty list, or a cons cell whose car is the first element, and whose cdr is the rest of the list. 03:19:30 the two boxes with one stick going down and the other going right 03:19:52 http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Cons-cells.svg/300px-Cons-cells.svg.png 03:20:01 which i just figured out is all you really need (well, that and love) 03:20:12 pattern: so when you are told to process a list, you already have (or are writing) a function that process lists, that is, a function that you can recursively call on the rest of the list, ie. the cdr of the parameter list. 03:20:30 Landr: No, no... All you need is love, the CONS cells are just extra. 03:20:46 cons is love 03:20:49 love, meaning 0? 03:20:50 pattern: if in addition, the function can work on elements or sublists of the list, then (and (f (car list)) (f (cdr list))) is all you need. 03:20:58 (ME . YOU) is the new heart symbol 03:21:04 i'm partial to 1s myself 03:21:52 pjb: thanks.. i'll mull that over.. 03:22:40 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 03:23:08 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ejwxakzyfelmpnjn] has joined #lisp 03:23:24 stassats: 1s orbitals? 03:23:25 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qmhdbnhqpqoaehon] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:29 love, or rather desire, is what provoques some kind of quantum fluctuations creating lambda expressions randomly, eventually producing quine lambda expressions, which evolves eventually to God and to our "simulated" universe. 03:23:33 leo2007 [~leo@222.77.37.20] has joined #lisp 03:23:34 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:24:17 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:04 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:25:13 nyef: heh 03:26:00 -!- kuffaar [void@haskell.2011.hk] has quit [Quit: Theism is cancer] 03:26:48 qfr [void@asm.is.dead.cl] has joined #lisp 03:26:50 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 03:27:16 -!- qfr is now known as kuffaar 03:29:48 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 03:30:27 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:54 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:50 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:32:33 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:32:38 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 03:36:25 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-18-94.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:43:05 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ejwxakzyfelmpnjn] has left #lisp 03:47:06 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:51:40 hmm, do i have this straight? 03:52:03 a symbol has a name and an object, an object has a type and a value 03:52:12 SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 03:52:54 for example, in (setf A "foobar") A is a symbol that now points to an object of a type string and a value "foobar" 03:53:05 (assuming lisp1 and not lisp2) 03:53:47 Symbols are objects. They are used as names. There may be several variables that are named by the same symbol at one time (but usually only one is visible in a given lexical or dynamic scope). 03:54:23 SETF doesn't define variables, that's why a setf form given at the toplevel without a previous variable definition has implementation dependent effects. 03:54:56 (let ((a 1)) (setf a "foobar") a) --> "foobar" 03:55:08 Symbols don't "point". 03:55:31 (defvar *a* 42) (setf *a* "foobar") *a* --> "foobar" 03:55:56 (list (let ((*a* 42)) *a*) *a*) --> (42 "foobar") 03:57:04 hmm :/ 03:57:22 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:57:26 Landr: think in terms of bindings instead of pointers 03:57:48 Otherwise, yes, in lisp objects are typed, while variable usually are not. However in CL you can declare a type for a variable. This tells to the compiler that all the objects you will bind to this variable will be of the declared type. This doesn't really affect the variable. 03:57:49 i was thinking in terms of the two boxes with two sticks 03:57:57 (or whatever the names for them are, cells?) 03:59:28 conses != symbols 03:59:32 Landr: re. lexical variables, the point is that the symbol naming a lexical variable disappears once the code is compiled. 04:00:04 xristos: but conses are what lisp machines are made of, no? 04:00:53 gumpa_ [~max@p5DE8C668.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:56 pjb: i... hadn't thought of that yet :| but it seems obvious 04:01:27 Landr: actually, the way lisp can be implemented is rather irrelevant. You can and probably should understand its semantics without trying to comit to a specific implementation. 04:01:45 Landr: Actually, lisp machines, like most other hardware, are made of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Maybe other stuff if you dig a bit deeper. 04:01:47 i'm trying to implement it in the hopes of getting a better understanding of it 04:01:56 Landr: perhaps symbols are implemented with conses, perhaps with structures, perhaps with lambdas, perhaps with something else. It doesn't really matter. 04:02:08 conses do not play a major role in Common Lisp, except that the code is represented as conses 04:02:15 -!- gumpa [~max@p5790F60F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:02:52 Landr: given the descriptions given by CLHS, you could write: (defstruct symbol name package plist value function). 04:03:15 what does that do? 04:03:16 Landr: You might find some of the old LispM technical documentation to be of interest. Some of them go into detail about the in-memory representation of various lisp objects. 04:03:45 Landr: that defines symbols as a structure referening the symbol-package, symbol-name, symbol-plist, symbol-value and symbol-function. 04:03:53 refering. 04:04:16 (Disclaimer: I came to lisp hacking via LispM emulation, which has seriously skewed my understanding of what lisp is and how it works.) 04:04:49 Landr: if you're interested in implementing lisp, you may read LiSP. Lisp In Small Pieces. 04:04:58 -!- simontwo_ [~simon@78.129.201.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:05:02 i tried that, but it's confusing the heck out of me 04:05:12 Sure, better first learn CL. 04:05:22 ;p 04:06:00 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:06:17 No, the symbol-value is used only to store the value of the special variable named by the symbol. It is not used for normal lexical variables. 04:06:23 s/No/Now/ 04:09:30 -!- az [~az@p5796C852.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:09:38 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vjbrurflxbspwlyq] has joined #lisp 04:09:39 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vjbrurflxbspwlyq] has left #lisp 04:11:46 *pattern* has an epipheny 04:11:46 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.87.61.212] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:12:08 the (car foo) is actually the pointer to the car of foo.. it's not a copy of the car of foo 04:12:14 right? 04:12:16 no 04:12:17 :P 04:12:23 :( 04:12:31 think of foo 04:12:37 its car is 5 04:12:39 yes? 04:12:42 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-195-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:44 now think of bar 04:12:47 its cdr is foo 04:12:58 it its car 5? or is 5 just the value that's in foo's car? 04:13:00 are you trying to confuse each other? 04:13:04 is (cdr bar) = (car foo) ? no 04:13:20 but (cadr bar) = (car foo) ! 04:13:37 pattern: this is almost correct, but not entirely. 04:13:39 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:13:43 oh wait 04:13:48 pattern: some objects may be copied at any time, like numbers or characters, but other than that, yes CAR returns a reference 04:14:12 >.< i give up 04:14:14 stassats: now it's making much more sense.. 04:14:14 pattern: in the case of small immutable objects (eg. numbers and characters), the cons cell could store a copy of the object instead of a pointer to a heap allocated object. 04:14:16 but you wouldn't know the difference, since you can't modify numbers or any other immutable objects 04:14:21 simontwo [~simon@78.129.201.122] has joined #lisp 04:14:54 pattern: but when the object is mutable (or too big to be held in the place of a pointer), then indeed, implementation usually keep a pointer to the object in the slots of a cons cell. 04:15:15 Okay, I'm going to bed, before I start working out VOPs or test-cases for the hack I've just planned. 04:15:18 pattern: but this is low level stuff. Let's just say that the cons cell refers to the object. 04:15:26 pjb: but regardless of whether the cons cell stores a copy of the object, the expression (car foo) returns a pointer (or reference) to the car of foo, and not a copy of what's in foo's car, right? 04:15:31 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-57-204.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:15:51 pattern: no, that's backwards. 04:15:57 i think it returns the value of what's in the car ? 04:15:57 If it's a number or character, it could hardly return a pointer. It would have to return a copy. 04:16:12 Landr: this is correct. 04:16:16 ^_^ 04:16:24 Only most values in Lisp are references. 04:16:40 pattern: think of a cons as a pair of words. Which can either be pointers or immediate values. 04:16:48 And you can also have a pointer to a cons. 04:16:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:17:08 az [~az@p4FE4F355.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:11 pattern: btw the book solution could be further simplified, cond is not necessary there 04:17:24 Which is (more or less) what is returned by the function CONS. 04:17:31 Well, if the implementation does cdr coding, then instead of having a pointer to a cons, you could have the car of the next cons... 04:17:40 in the cdr, I mean. 04:18:01 pjb: yeah, because *that's* going to get pattern over the hump of understanding cons cells. ;-) 04:18:08 Sorry :-) 04:19:46 gigamonkey: but what does (car foo) return? does it return a pointer to the car of foo or a copy of the value that's in the car of foo? 04:20:20 It returns the value. Which may be an immediate value (if, e.g. it's a number that's not too big) or a reference (pointer) to the value. 04:20:47 hmm 04:21:31 pattern: you see, pointers are managed automatically. Lisp keeps track of the type of the things, so it knows whether it stored an integer or a pointer to a cons cell or a pointer to a symbol in a slot of the cons cell. 04:21:54 right.. 04:22:06 pattern: so it can return the thing, the number, the cons cell, the symbol, whatever, however it "stored" it in the slot of the cons cell. 04:22:37 but i'm just trying to think of how i can put a reference to the last cons cell in a list in to the cdr of a cons for that stupid TCONC problem.. 04:23:03 Just put the last cons cell in the cdr of the tconc. 04:23:10 when it returns a copy, it doesn't matter, since you can't tell and can't modify it 04:23:12 (setf (cdr tconc) last-cons-cell) 04:23:12 So here's a list (cons 1 nil) 04:23:38 Rather (let ((x (cons 1 nil))) (cons 'whatever x)) 04:23:44 and being pedantic is confusing 04:23:45 or: (rplacd tconc last-cons-cell) 04:24:22 The cdr of the cons returned by that LET is the head and tail of the list (1) 04:24:33 pattern: it may be easier if you first abstract away this tconc header cell. 04:26:13 pattern: that description in the comment is also kind of misleading, I think. 04:26:41 gigamonkey: are you referring to the comment in the tconc problem? 04:26:47 yeah 04:27:51 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 04:28:44 pjb: you suggested (setf (cdr tconc) last-cons-cell) 04:29:20 first, i can't use setf for this, i think i'm going to have to use rplacd 04:29:41 but the real conceptual problem that i'm having here is the reference to (cdr tconc) 04:30:18 if it, like (car foo), only returns the value, then how am i going to be able to put a reference to the last cons cell of the list in my tconc? 04:30:19 or: (rplacd tconc last-cons-cell) 04:30:33 (setf (cdr tconc) last-cons-cell) == (rplacd tconc last-cons-cell) 04:30:53 You can find the last cons cell of the list with the function LAST. 04:31:11 but last traverses the list 04:31:21 But formost, when you add an element to a tconc, you already have a reference to the old last cons cell: it is stored in the cdr of the tconc. 04:31:39 and this problem implies that the whole purpose of tconc is to save the expense of traversing the list every time you add an element to the end 04:31:47 nostoi [~nostoi@190.Red-79-147-212.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:58 so you only need to create a new cons to store the new last element, and to update the cdr of the last cons cell, and the cdr of the tconc. 04:33:04 but how did a reference to the last cons cell get in to the cdr of the tconc in the first place? 04:33:28 it's the reference-making that i'm not getting 04:33:37 one of these commands is going to have to return a reference, and not the value 04:33:45 that's what i want.. a reference 04:33:49 Because you stored it the last time you called the tconc function. 04:34:05 and how was it stored the first time? 04:34:14 No, All but the last of these functions should return the TCONC itself. 04:34:23 The first time it was NIL that was stored, by make-tconc. 04:34:34 hmm 04:34:36 So indeed, you have to make a special case when (cdr tconc) is nil. 04:34:53 -!- benny` [~benny@i577A116B.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:35:07 pattern: CONS returns a reference. 04:35:23 hmm 04:35:52 Well, I would just say that cons returns the new cons cell. In general, you don't need to care about references or values, etc. 04:36:20 if there were no references involved then i would have no idea of how to solve this problem 04:36:59 pattern: for these list processing procedures, the best is to draw the diagrams, of what you have before and after each function. Then you can easily see what arrows changed, ie. what cell you need to modify to go from the old to the new situation. 04:37:06 as it seems that there has to be a reference to the last cons in the list to avoid traversing the list every time you want to add another element to the end 04:37:29 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:44 thanks, pjb 04:37:47 i'll try that 04:41:58 pattern: you might take a look at this http://gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html 04:43:30 thank you, gigamonkey 04:43:49 and thanks for making your book freely available online 04:43:53 it's a great help 04:44:16 pattern: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118867 04:44:40 thanks, pjb 04:44:48 that just answered another question i was about to ask 04:46:06 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:47:07 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 04:47:09 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:25 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.207] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:49:25 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@190.Red-79-147-212.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 04:49:40 -!- SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:20 SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 04:52:19 pjb: is there some easy way to have sbcl draw those diagrams? i'd like to experiment with making my own.. 04:52:43 i've been drawing them on paper, but with that method i never know if i'm drawgin them right 04:57:06 ^D^ 04:57:19 *Landr* made a semi-lisp thingy in C! 04:57:45 pattern: gentle introduction to symbolic computation using lisp has something along those lines, I think 04:58:04 http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 04:58:21 Or if you took a detour to write one yourself, you'd probably understand cons cells by the time you were done. ;-) 05:02:23 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 05:02:35 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:37 i think i'd have to understand a lot more than cells... 05:03:02 -!- kuffaar [void@asm.is.dead.cl] has quit [Quit: Theism is cancer] 05:03:05 like layout for the cells 05:03:09 and routing the arrows 05:03:49 qfr [void@2001:41d0:1:382a:fade:fade:fade:fade] has joined #lisp 05:03:54 -!- qfr is now known as kuffaar 05:03:56 it might not be too bad, though.. if the cells are all the same size 05:05:31 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-uhlwhkronpkwqefr] has joined #lisp 05:09:08 think procedurally :> 05:10:58 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:12:23 "The elements of the list are held in the CARs of the cons cells while the links to subsequent cons cells are held in the CDRs." 05:12:31 that's what i was saying before... 05:13:19 a list is a series of one or more cons cells, where the cdr of each cons cell points to the car of the next, and the cdr of the last cons cell in the list points to nil... right? 05:13:51 no, it points to the next cons, not to the car of the next cons 05:14:14 think of it as a series of humans 05:14:19 their right hand is their car 05:14:22 their left hand their cdr 05:14:27 i point to you with my left hand 05:14:32 i'm not pointing to your right hand 05:14:47 ok.. i guess that makes sense 05:15:03 -!- tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:15:04 a fine, but an important distinction.. i suppose 05:15:10 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:15:28 though you could say that i can't point to you without pointing to a body part 05:15:40 metaphors only go so far :P 05:15:44 hehe 05:16:09 but your right hand doesn't have arms itself... unless of course you are pointing to someone with your right hand as well 05:16:36 benny` [~benny@i577A74C4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:16:55 but look at this diagram... http://paste.lisp.org/display/118867 05:16:56 -!- benny` is now known as benny 05:17:21 in fact they arrows do always point to the car's 05:17:39 no, they point to the cons 05:17:39 maybe that's why i got confused.. 05:18:03 maybe it'd've been clearer if they pointed to the center of the cons 05:19:10 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-18-94.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 05:24:32 daniel [~daniel@p5B327F8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:21 here, is this better? 05:25:22 http://i.imgur.com/I1eLK.png 05:26:44 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:27 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p50829AB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:27:52 tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 05:28:20 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 05:28:47 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #lisp 05:28:55 pattern: do you know C? 05:33:25 If you do, you could think of cons cells as structs with two fields, car and cdr. 05:33:40 And when you have a reference to a cons cell you have a pointer. 05:33:49 i wrote a nice cludge of a C file over the past few hours that shows that (not) nicely :> 05:34:43 with nice things like "a->cdr.v.p->cdr.v.s" 05:37:34 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:41:25 -!- SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:41:31 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 05:41:57 SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 05:43:39 Of course the cool kids don't use TCONCS with the list in the CAR and the tail in the CDR. You put the list in the CDR and the tail in the CAR so then you can do this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118868 05:49:36 -!- SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:50:27 SidH__ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 05:51:23 -!- SidH__ is now known as SidH_ 05:55:28 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 05:59:30 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:36 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 06:02:25 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-195-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:07:02 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:09:49 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has joined #lisp 06:10:54 Liera [~user@113.172.33.211] has joined #lisp 06:11:04 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 06:12:05 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.10.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:13:32 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.68.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:14:54 in http://gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html 06:15:15 it says that expressions like (setf foo (delete nil foo)) are idiomatic in lisp 06:15:21 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.173.191] has joined #lisp 06:15:43 but i don't understand why it's necessary to setf foo in this case, if delete modifies foo itself 06:16:19 why not just (delete nil foo) ? 06:16:22 wouldn't that do the same thing? 06:16:59 remove-head is not correct in http://paste.lisp.org/display/118868. 06:17:21 pattern: delete is not specified to modify the list passed to it. It could return a new copy. 06:17:21 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.112.161.13] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 06:17:44 pattern: it is only _allowed_ to modify it, not mandated to. 06:17:48 ah 06:18:01 well, that's annoying 06:18:19 isn't the whole point of using delete rather than remove that delete will modify the list? 06:18:25 Now, think about (let ((l (list 'a))) (values (delete 'a l) l)) 06:18:29 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:18:56 pattern: it's not always possible to modify the list such that it be the wanted result. 06:19:26 gozoner_ [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:33 pattern: Notice that in lisp, the arguments are always passed by value. 06:19:52 (just like in C). 06:20:04 longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 06:20:35 if they're always passed by value than how can destructive operations like rplaca ever work? 06:21:00 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:21:04 because some values are mutable objects. 06:21:24 in fact, how can delete even sometimes modify the list its given if it's only passed the list as a value rather than as a reference? 06:21:32 What did you find about (let ((l (list 'a))) (values (delete 'a l) l)) ? 06:21:49 NIL (A) 06:21:50 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:22:36 So, deleting the last element the list produces the symbol NIL (representing the empty list). How do you mutate a cons cell (a non empty list) into a symbol? 06:23:47 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 06:24:02 by changing its car to nil? 06:24:17 Try it: (let ((l (list 'a))) (setf (car l) 'nil) l) 06:24:21 nil has a car of nil and a cdr of nil, right? 06:24:37 so it has to be a cons cell made up of nil nil 06:24:46 which doesn't make much sense.. 06:24:49 Well, NIL has no car or cdr slots. But it's true that car or cdr applied to NIL will return NIL. 06:25:22 That doesn't make the symbol NIL the same thing that a cons cell containing NIL and NIL. (not (eql 'nil (cons 'nil 'nil))) 06:25:22 NIL is a big exception 06:25:48 In scheme, car and cdr produce an error on (). 06:26:05 and of course, on any nil symbol, which is NOT the empty list in scheme. 06:28:12 In an implementation that would use structures to implement cons cells, you could have: (defstruct cons car cdr) (defun car (x) (cond ((null x) x) ((consp x) (cons-car x)) (t (error 'type-error)))) etc. 06:29:29 -!- Liera [~user@113.172.33.211] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:31:26 pattern: to draw the diagrams, I use COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.PICTURE.CONS-TO-ASCII:DRAW-LIST but it doesn't implement structure sharing and circular structures (works as if *print-circle* was nil) so I had to adjust the diagrams manually. 06:32:32 ah 06:32:35 salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:14 Liera [~user@113.172.33.211] has joined #lisp 06:34:13 plage [~user@113.161.72.9] has joined #lisp 06:34:34 Good afternoon everyone! 06:34:50 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:34:58 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 06:37:37 qnavry [~user@c114-76-33-153.eburwd4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:38:12 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:39:49 -!- gozoner_ [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:40:50 I thought that "plage" was another nickname for "beach" for a second. 06:41:18 moore33: It is: beach at home, spiaggia on the desktop at work, plage on my laptop. 06:41:27 Aha! 06:41:42 No _beach for you. 06:41:49 moore33: And hello, by the way. 06:42:03 beach: Hey there. How's the Internet connectivity there? 06:42:04 moore33: Nah, that would be too simple. 06:42:19 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:42:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:42:34 moore33: Quite good actually. Not always very fast perhaps. But every dinky hotel and coffee shop has free wifi. 06:43:09 moore33: One day France will become just as civilized I hope. Italy is still way behind apparently. 06:45:44 moore33: So did Alexander Repenning's message made you decide to do some Lisp hacking again? :) 06:46:09 plage: Which message? I guess that answers the question :) 06:46:22 moore33: I guess so. On the Lisp-pro mailing list. 06:46:29 Break for breakfast, taking Isaac to school, etc. 06:48:01 Wow, Bob Kearns, there's a blast from the past. 06:48:21 plage: Never heard of that mailing list before! Which message? 06:49:36 -!- SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:49:56 moore33: Don't bother. It was one of those "Lisp is old ("stale"). Language X is getting faster. You should do something about it." messages. 06:50:31 SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 06:50:44 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:06 Axioplase [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 06:51:09 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 06:51:51 plage: Looks like a fine old flame war. 06:52:45 oh, i read that 06:52:49 it made it to reddit 06:53:33 it wasn't nearly as interesting as the "learning lisp the hard way" thread 06:54:23 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.6.190] has joined #lisp 06:54:58 pattern: I believe that was the very thread. 06:55:11 moore33: Old and boring. 06:55:20 Well, that too. 06:55:57 One of my favorite 3D applications is written in Erlang, so there :P 06:56:39 plage: this is the recent "common lisp has gone stale" reddit thread... http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/f5vdb/common_lisp_has_gone_stale_the_common_lisp/ 06:56:50 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.223.128.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:56:59 and this is the "learning lisp the hard way" thread.. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/63d76b19003620d2 06:57:28 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:57:58 I love all the bitchy comments about the formatting. Classic. 06:58:44 don't you just love it when somebody takes an out-of-context bit from a discussion and puts it someplace else to increase their profit (be it upvotes or ad clicks)? 06:59:34 -!- salva_oz [~kvirc@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.1 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 06:59:37 pascal constanza's message would have deserved to go on reddit, there 06:59:39 plage: seems that message was clearly out of charter for that maillist. 06:59:49 antifuchs: sites like reddit thrive on that sort of thing 06:59:55 pattern: yes, they do 07:00:09 which is exactly why I don't read it unless I'm /very, very/ bored 07:00:21 and unable to do anything productive (: 07:00:54 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:01:15 you can pretty much count on only the most useless and most inflammatory things to go on there. 07:01:22 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 07:01:47 it's probably better to just listen to a detuned radio. at least this way, you might learn something about the universe (; 07:01:54 yeah, it's the inflammatory stuff that tends to get the highest ratings 07:02:05 I've come to realize that all internet forums depend on the presence of disinterested bastards. 07:02:36 #lisp just wouldn't be the same without you, Zhivago (-: 07:02:46 And at a certain scale you run out of these resources. 07:03:59 By disinterested bastard, I mean someone willing to kick the crap out of disruptive people, while willing to accept people who disagree with them. 07:04:16 I guess you could call them anti-trolls. 07:04:25 ah, that (: 07:04:36 well, yeah. people who care about the forum (: 07:05:07 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:05:36 Yeah. I suspect that you need some way to prevent forums from growing large. Maybe splitting them into many bubbles. 07:08:20 notsonerdysunny [~chatzilla@121.243.182.185] has joined #lisp 07:10:34 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.173.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:10:53 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.173.191] has joined #lisp 07:11:16 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81E0BA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:13:16 does anyone know of any good active lisp blogs? 07:13:28 http://planet.lisp.org 07:14:03 thanks 07:14:09 -!- cky [~cky@car.spillville.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:14:29 -!- joast [~rick@CPE-76-178-178-72.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:14:34 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:49 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:15:15 cky [~cky@car.spillville.com] has joined #lisp 07:15:26 Repenning is whiny, but he is a long-time serious Lisp user. Oh well. 07:16:06 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:16:49 moore33: It looks like one of those "I am about to abandone Lisp, but I can't do that without a reason, so here is one" posts. 07:17:45 moore33: Soon to be followed by an implicit or explicit "since you haven't fixed my problem yet, I am sorry to have to announce that I have to abandon Lisp, but it's your fault because you didn't do anything about my problem." post. 07:20:39 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:39 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:22:56 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:25:52 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:25:52 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:25:52 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:29:53 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:30:14 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 07:31:18 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 07:32:58 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:07 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:35:22 good morning 07:35:25 Hello mvilleneuve! 07:35:27 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.88.67] has joined #lisp 07:35:33 Early today! 07:36:11 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:38:36 -!- |3b|`` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:38:41 |3b|``` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:32 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-uhlwhkronpkwqefr] has left #lisp 07:42:17 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 07:43:23 plage: yes, no idea why, though :) 07:44:33 Hi. 07:44:46 hello Axioplase_ 07:44:48 does anybody know if there exists an open source web-based Lisp bugtracking system? 07:44:49 Is there something in quicklisp to read/write pictures? 07:45:17 Axioplase_: In what format? 07:45:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.77.37.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:31 I don't really care about the format, so, .pmn is as good as jpg 07:45:37 Axioplase_: I believe the Imago library is in quicklisp, but I'm not sure it does what you want 07:45:55 Axioplase_: There is also some code in McCLIM for that. 07:45:56 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 07:46:25 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nqxyscdzhkkjryqe] has joined #lisp 07:46:34 Imago might be what I want, thanks. 07:47:45 -!- Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:48:14 Axioplase_: imago is very nice; I should also mention vecto if you want to do vector graphic operations 07:48:22 (it's very cool, and writes .png) 07:48:25 I'd love to find something like Bugzilla or Redmine, maybe simpler, and in Lisp 07:49:04 mvilleneuve: How hard could it be to write? Using, say, Hunchentoot? 07:49:08 ages ago, dan_b wrote entomotomy, which is a cliki with bug numbers, IIRC 07:49:22 it was never widely used, and has very likely bit-rotted by now. 07:49:27 -!- SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:49:46 (I think it used to be a bug tracker for sbcl, but people decided it was too much hassle) 07:49:49 SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 07:49:54 -!- SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:49:58 mvilleneuve: the sbcl crew seem very happy with launchpad's bug tracking system 07:50:04 Isn't the problem that people do not agree as to what such a system should do, and not do? 07:50:10 antifuchs: I'll try both, that would be a very nice way to practice with several APIs, and hopefully interact with good code and learn from that :) 07:50:18 SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 07:50:24 Axioplase_: that's the spirit! (: 07:50:32 Axioplase_: have fun using them (: 07:50:40 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:50:46 plage: well, that problem usually gets solved as pain increases (: 07:51:18 as any advanced interrogator will tell you, people tend to become more willing to make compromises under duress <-; 07:51:23 antifuchs: By the fact that people quit using the system? 07:51:37 antifuchs: Ah, I see. 07:51:42 I meant as a side effect of not using a bug tracker 07:51:55 Got it. 07:51:56 as the number of bugs grows, even the worst system becomes acceptable 07:52:09 but launchpad seems seriously nice 07:52:34 when I was using them, I liked github's issues - but they don't let you control them via email, so that might be a problem 07:52:46 also, launchpad and github are hosted systems, AFAICT. so, not for everybody. 07:53:04 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 07:53:19 and neither of them are written in lisp, so if that's a hard requirement... (-: 07:55:40 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 07:56:16 Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:56:30 Joreji_ [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:00:35 -!- sm`wor [~chatzilla@78.40.4.40] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:00:44 sm`wor_ [~chatzilla@78.40.4.40] has joined #lisp 08:00:46 -!- sm`wor_ is now known as sm`wor 08:00:58 Deesl [~bsdboy@2001:470:f96b:0:9227:e4ff:fefa:e9b9] has joined #lisp 08:01:11 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@2001:470:f96b:0:9227:e4ff:fefa:e9b9] has quit [Changing host] 08:01:11 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 08:01:24 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 08:02:12 I am mildly happy with launchpad 08:02:22 it's not debbugs, but it's not bugzilla either 08:02:48 splittist [~John@111.119.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:02:52 morning 08:02:54 entomotomy was really useful because it understood that cmucl and sbcl shared code and bugs and so you could fix something in one project and still have it visible in the other 08:02:57 Hello splittist! 08:03:04 but I wouldn't use it now 08:03:08 -!- cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:03:44 launchpad is incrementally better than a flat text file and a bunch of "important" tags in an e-mail buffer 08:06:51 Google projects bug tracking is not completely atrocious. 08:07:36 -!- splittist [~John@111.119.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:08:03 splittist [~John@111.119.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:08:06 re 08:08:20 aren't we all positive this morning :-) 08:09:13 -!- nullman` [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:09:14 It's Friday, the sun is shining (above the clouds, anyway), and there's no shortage of parenttheses. What's not to chirp about (: 08:11:46 Yeah, it's not even very hot. Only 31°C. 08:12:15 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.92.16] has joined #lisp 08:12:50 plage: -1 here :O 08:13:12 moore33: Yes, I know. I have that in my toolbar as well, just to see the difference. :) 08:13:50 OTOH, if you were both an average 15 then no-one would be happy. 08:15:30 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:16:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:19:34 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-jmgneebqtdijmwpr] has joined #lisp 08:22:20 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-nqxyscdzhkkjryqe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:22:35 splittist: 15 is still acceptable, for an outside temperature. 08:23:38 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:48 *plage* is happy that this exam is finally over, and takes off for home. 08:23:52 -!- plage [~user@113.161.72.9] has left #lisp 08:30:10 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rxjsbbqktfvfuqvf] has joined #lisp 08:32:02 ircing during exams? what the world has come to... 08:32:07 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-rxjsbbqktfvfuqvf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:33:54 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:02 icreased efficiency? 08:34:12 *increased 08:34:50 jdz: I'd do that if I had to watch over one too (and if, like beach, I didn't have to get the prof's permission ;) 08:35:08 From that stupid reddit thread: 08:35:27 "But the leading Lisp implementations were all closed source and unaffordable, so when open free and open source languages began to arise and gain mindshare, the Lisp community so much invested into and relied on the paranoidly closed, commercial implementations, that they didnt build a free Lisp in order to not hurt the closed source business. So they basically cut themselves off from user and contributor supply, a wrong decisi 08:35:27 on from which the Lisp ecosystem never recovered." 08:35:44 This is unfortunately right on. See anything written by KMP on the subject. 08:35:56 carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.86] has joined #lisp 08:36:15 If "the Lisp community" is defined as "the Lisp community c. 1995." 08:36:21 I actually get the feeling that the commercial, while very much proprietary, are far from black boxes to legitimate owners 08:36:34 Ralith_ [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:45 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:37:18 pkhuong: You are right. Many users of the proprietary Lisps are very sophisticated, have source license to some if not all of the implementation, etc. 08:37:18 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 08:38:31 moore: It also extends into other areas, such as using images and echewing processes. 08:38:33 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:47 moore: Which is going to hit harder as we move into distributed systems. 08:39:02 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 08:42:28 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-54-231.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:41 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:59 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zqdnisvyiplcrbev] has joined #lisp 08:45:34 w0tan_ [~s@adsl-64-169-0-122.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:45 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-126-99.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:46:06 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:23 -!- SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:50:07 SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 08:51:51 -!- ASau [~user@93-80-210-26.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:53:47 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-9-214.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:55:30 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:55:58 -!- w0tan_ [~s@adsl-64-169-0-122.dsl.renocs.nvbell.net] has left #lisp 08:57:18 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:58:10 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:02:20 sebyte [~sebyte@78.188.82.134] has joined #lisp 09:02:38 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:02:46 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-9-214.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:02:49 morning all 09:06:12 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-172.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:09:40 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-9-214.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:43 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 09:10:35 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-172.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:11:19 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:11:35 I have a directory of text files with names which are email addresses. some end '.com', some end '.co.uk' e.t.c. as you might expect. however (directory "files/*") => NIL. also (directory "files/*.*") => NIL. only (directory "files/*.com") => '("foo.com" ...). why do i have to do to get (directory "files/*.*") to work as expected? 09:12:07 s/why/what/ 09:13:37 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-jlpusmxjkyaidleq] has joined #lisp 09:13:37 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-jlpusmxjkyaidleq] has quit [Changing host] 09:13:37 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:14:05 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:16:01 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-118-246.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:16:10 Joreji [~thomas@89-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:17:38 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 09:18:28 -!- Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:18:36 sebyte: which implementation and OS? 09:19:34 splittist: sbcl/debian lenny 09:19:40 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [] 09:21:10 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:23:19 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-24-229.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:24:11 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-173-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:24:56 because pathnames in Lisp aren't quite the same as shell globs 09:25:04 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25:15 oh, wait, I would have expected files/*.* to work 09:27:09 majhool [~mrw@user-0can1en.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 09:29:03 splittist: Krystof: sorry... my bad. *.* does work. doh. 09:31:24 algal [~anonymous@92.26.7.209] has joined #lisp 09:34:39 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:37:29 sebyte: phew. If in doubt you can always (make-pathname... with :wild as appropriate. 09:38:28 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:38:50 -!- nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:39:40 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 09:41:40 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.88.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:41:57 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:36 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zqdnisvyiplcrbev] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:42:41 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yoakkywsnjgeazzl] has joined #lisp 09:43:17 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 09:44:25 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7576f5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:13 nullman [~nullman@c-75-73-150-26.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:45 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:49:22 -!- SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:49:43 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 09:49:45 SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 09:55:10 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-118-246.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:55:23 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-118-246.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:03:56 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:23 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F355.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:08:01 H4ns` [~user@p579F8683.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:17 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:11:38 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9EB60.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:11:49 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:13:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@89-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:14:38 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.131.147] has joined #lisp 10:16:31 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-140.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:17:31 mvilleneuve: Do you know by any chance what "format" is, in imago's write-pnm? 10:20:48 Axioplase_: if you mean the output-format parameter, it is either :ascii or :binary 10:20:54 Haa 10:21:12 perfect, thanks 10:21:27 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:21:39 Edward_ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-39-62.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:22:44 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 10:23:17 -!- simontwo [~simon@78.129.201.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:25:31 ZabaQ [~john.conn@213.246.117.197] has joined #lisp 10:25:32 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:26:36 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7576f5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27:57 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 10:30:48 simontwo [~simon@78.129.201.122] has joined #lisp 10:35:09 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:35:34 -!- majhool [~mrw@user-0can1en.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 10:35:45 Harag [~Harag@41.56.39.32] has joined #lisp 10:43:46 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:45:17 H4ns`: here-p? 10:47:41 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-yoakkywsnjgeazzl] has left #lisp 10:49:08 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ashpatdnhxxvdilb] has joined #lisp 10:49:08 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ashpatdnhxxvdilb] has quit [Changing host] 10:49:08 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:49:17 -!- SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:49:21 Joreji [~thomas@89-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:49:39 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:50:35 tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-130-31.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 10:51:09 -!- notsonerdysunny [~chatzilla@121.243.182.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:51:23 SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 10:53:57 -!- algal [~anonymous@92.26.7.209] has quit [Quit: algal] 10:54:25 Good evening everyone! 10:54:39 :) 10:54:55 beach: home again! 10:55:03 splittist: You bet! 10:55:48 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.173.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:57:30 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.181.10] has joined #lisp 10:58:58 -!- Joreji [~thomas@89-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:00:59 tcr2 [~tcr@217-162-130-31.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 11:01:03 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@217-162-130-31.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:02:47 algal [~anonymous@92.26.7.209] has joined #lisp 11:03:24 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 11:04:54 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.33.203] has joined #lisp 11:05:57 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.181.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:06:07 francogrex [~user@109.130.119.52] has joined #lisp 11:06:14 what version of emacs is optimial for lisp hacking on the mac? 11:06:34 for a reasonably experienced emacs user? 11:06:41 ZabaQ: The newest version. 11:06:42 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:06:58 ... as Mac support is new. 11:07:27 Bleeding edge cvs? 11:07:33 So AFAIK, you should get more out of those... 11:07:33 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A8D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:36 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.194.194] has joined #lisp 11:07:37 not quite :) 11:08:03 Joreji [~thomas@89-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:08:09 I run Emacs23 without any problems... 11:08:26 Granted... I still have to switch over from Aquamacs. 11:08:46 Which is also an option. 11:10:26 Problem is, I'm so used to the Mac text navigation functions that I have to build them into Emacs myself... So if you're an experienced Emacs user, then go for Emacs. 11:10:37 I came from TextEdit 11:10:42 (and VIM) 11:12:07 zickzackv [~zickzackv@141.23.29.40] has joined #lisp 11:12:27 Sounds like I want emacs. 11:13:42 Took me a while to realise that Emacs isn't a text editor as such, but more of a really powerful "IDE" like environment. 11:13:53 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:14:16 -!- d2biG is now known as dRbiG 11:14:45 mrSpec [HOST217X42@chips.ds16.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 11:14:45 -!- mrSpec [HOST217X42@chips.ds16.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Changing host] 11:14:45 mrSpec [HOST217X42@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:16:40 billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.91] has joined #lisp 11:16:46 I actually wanted to ask something about Emacs myself... is there a hook function in SLIME that I can use to close the REPL automatically? 11:18:40 close in what way? 11:19:02 quiting the Lisp process. 11:19:08 do you know about the ,sayonara repl shortcut? 11:19:17 or ,q 11:19:27 nope that's a bit different 11:19:34 ah 11:19:51 ,sayonara will also kill slime-related buffers (not source buffers though) 11:20:56 right, I'll have a look at sayanara... but I'm used to pressing C-x C-c at which point Emacs asks whether I'd like to close the running processes. 11:22:25 Well, nevermind, I was just checking if there was anything ready-made. 11:22:46 I'll just find the "quit" function and add that to a hook. 11:28:39 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@217-162-130-31.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:29:03 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:30:09 cerr_org [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has joined #lisp 11:30:56 -!- cerr_org [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [Client Quit] 11:31:13 cerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has joined #lisp 11:31:14 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:52 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 11:32:55 *splittist* is surprised no-one said 'you kill emacs?' 11:33:54 that's a form of state murder 11:34:33 Land of lisp arrived 11:34:44 Is a rather different book :) 11:35:02 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:35:10 *ZabaQ* doesn't get the fuss about "Land of Lisp". 11:35:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-173.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:35:51 It's silly of me, but I get really irritated by the (loop ... do (progn ...))s in LoL. 11:37:03 Hi, out of curiosity, anyone has used embedded x86 assembly in Corman lisp (need some hints) ? 11:39:49 -!- algal [~anonymous@92.26.7.209] has quit [Quit: algal] 11:41:10 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41:38 ZabaQ: *shrug* I did not know there was a fuss 11:44:33 splittist: you don't need progn there 11:44:51 splittist: but of course, better check iterate ;-) 11:45:16 what, Land of Lisp was actually released in the end? 11:45:24 mishoo: exactly, that's what irritates me. 11:46:31 *ZabaQ* wishes once again that iterate had made it into the standard. It's so much more lispy. 11:48:02 from the sample chapter on the website, depending on the difficulty of the earlier chapters, it could make a great "learn programming" thing for kids 11:49:04 az [~az@89.204.153.248] has joined #lisp 11:49:14 -!- SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:50:08 SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has joined #lisp 11:52:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.92.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:59:48 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has joined #lisp 12:00:12 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 12:00:41 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.119.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:07 valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.234.217] has joined #lisp 12:02:09 tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 12:02:32 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:04:43 reav_ [~reav_@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:06:42 *Xach* has on his hot little hard drive a Linj source release 12:08:50 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.131.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:11:09 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.131.147] has joined #lisp 12:11:53 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:12:22 hello lispers :) 12:12:23 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13:11 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.10.141] has joined #lisp 12:13:47 hello fe[nl]ix 12:13:53 hi madnificent 12:15:51 -!- longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:15:51 -!- longshot_ is now known as longshot 12:16:26 adu [~ajr@64.134.67.69] has joined #lisp 12:18:44 Xach: and end to the great lisp library drought at last! 12:18:57 s/and/an/ 12:19:28 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 12:21:21 Oh, wait - that was jnil. 12:24:24 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:27:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@89-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:28:14 -!- cerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:28:25 rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has joined #lisp 12:28:52 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:10 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:29:34 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:30:55 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:30:55 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-181-140.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:31:08 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:16 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:35:16 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 12:35:21 carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.86] has joined #lisp 12:35:32 Liera` [~user@113.172.35.119] has joined #lisp 12:36:27 Xach: LinJ 2.0 with non-GPL license? 12:38:15 -!- Liera [~user@113.172.33.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:38:31 myu2 [~myu2@124x35x46x241.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:40:36 Bronsa [~brace@host28-186-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:44:37 -!- SidH_ [~Sid_H@192.163.20.231] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 12:45:09 -!- qnavry [~user@c114-76-33-153.eburwd4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:45:21 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-210-28.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:49:52 Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:51:32 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 12:54:05 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:56:25 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:56:37 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 12:58:12 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 12:58:17 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:54 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-173-246.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:05:26 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.88.67] has joined #lisp 13:08:36 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.67.69] has quit [Quit: adu] 13:16:06 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 13:16:11 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:21 adu [~ajr@64.134.67.69] has joined #lisp 13:18:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:20:19 claint [~user@212.154.81.178] has joined #lisp 13:21:08 whois utku 13:21:18 ooops 13:21:43 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:23:38 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:24:22 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:26:18 claint: FAIL 13:28:12 -!- myu2 [~myu2@124x35x46x241.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:19 -!- sm`wor [~chatzilla@78.40.4.40] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558]] 13:30:11 -!- mrSpec [HOST217X42@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:31:42 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 13:32:46 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.131.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:32:53 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@139-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:33:23 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.166] has joined #lisp 13:34:04 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.131.147] has joined #lisp 13:36:07 mrSpec [HOST217X42@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:39:49 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:46:08 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:49:09 -!- splittist [~John@111.119.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: displacement in time and space] 13:49:10 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.33.203] has quit [Quit: Switching...] 13:49:36 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.33.203] has joined #lisp 13:50:39 p_l|backup: linj whatever with BSD or MIT license 13:50:52 p_l|backup: last I checked, there was no LinJ release with a sensible license. There's only the one with "no commercial use" clause, and I never got any followup from António on this issue, despite several tries 13:51:02 Xach: really? 13:51:05 it's BSD? 13:51:24 It will be. 13:51:33 Antonio said "Pick a license and update the files with it." 13:52:35 algal [~anonymous@92.26.7.209] has joined #lisp 13:53:12 ... you made my day 13:53:14 srsly 13:55:43 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:37 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:56:44 tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 13:57:51 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.33.203] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:58:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.33.203] has joined #lisp 14:04:18 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:06:45 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:08 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:12:18 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.226] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:13:53 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.18.248] has joined #lisp 14:17:02 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:18:31 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.67.69] has quit [Quit: adu] 14:20:08 Raykon [~user@194.210.228.127] has joined #lisp 14:20:27 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:24:56 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:04 -!- kuffaar [void@2001:41d0:1:382a:fade:fade:fade:fade] has quit [Quit: Theism is cancer] 14:25:51 kuffaar [void@haskell.ist.krieg.9.ai] has joined #lisp 14:26:28 adu [~ajr@64.134.67.69] has joined #lisp 14:26:28 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.67.69] has quit [Client Quit] 14:26:35 urandom__ [~user@p548A59F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:39 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A8D1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:26:47 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 14:27:18 adu [~ajr@64.134.67.69] has joined #lisp 14:29:11 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:29:50 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 14:31:30 -!- mrSpec [HOST217X42@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:34:02 chiehwen [~chiehwen@114-41-243-152.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:39 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-57-204.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:06 G'morning all. 14:40:29 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:33 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:07 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.222.86] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 14:45:23 Hello nyef! 14:46:14 mornin' 14:48:49 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:49:12 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:34 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #lisp 14:51:56 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.18.248] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:55:42 https://github.com/xach/linj is the original source from antonio. Later today I'll update the license info based on what he told me. 14:58:54 gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has joined #lisp 14:59:14 splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:59:25 re 14:59:38 Hello splittist. 14:59:53 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:29 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:39 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:01:42 Anyone have the Linj slides handy? 15:02:43 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:02:58 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:03:14 looks like my org tutorial is getting translated into hungarian ! 15:05:00 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7576f5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:12 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:05:12 -!- dto1 is now known as dto 15:05:33 Xach: http://weitz.de/eclm2005/java-for-lispers.pdf ? 15:07:25 luis: that's the one i remember, thanks. 15:08:28 Xach: http://web.archive.org/web/20050407202441/http://www.evaluator.pt/downloads/linj-manual.pdf is another useful resource in case you don't have it yet. 15:09:10 And perhaps http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CFYQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.comsis.org%2FComSIS%2FVol5No2%2FRegularPapers%2Fpdf%2F2.pdf&ei=56A5TYiLF8ahOsHgoKkL&usg=AFQjCNGm5998z8XSmkAuQPHCNxZaRcC0ZA 15:09:22 woah 15:09:33 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:50 I meant www.comsis.org/ComSIS/Vol5No2/RegularPapers/pdf/2.pdf 15:10:29 http://web.archive.org/web/20040204114522/www.evaluator.pt/downloads/tutorial.html should be useful too. 15:16:10 rolando [~user@55.43.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:17:50 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:19:28 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 15:19:44 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.231.101] has joined #lisp 15:24:47 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:50 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-186.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:26:20 -!- wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:30 -!- chiehwen [~chiehwen@114-41-243-152.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:53 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-141-172.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:29:03 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:29:23 tmh [6c491a1c@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:29:32 Greetings lispers! 15:29:46 Hello tmh. 15:31:13 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 15:32:04 So, I'm trying to understand a macro the uses the &environment keyword. While I've seen this keyword before, I have never taken the time to care about it's significance. What is a one sentence description of its purpose? 15:32:24 It's the lexical environment the macro is being expanded in. 15:32:25 tmh: if you have to call macroexpand from the expander. 15:32:37 tmh: or for cltl2 introspection stuff. 15:33:04 About the only thing it's good for in the standard is to pass to macroexpand if you need to do expansion and hit any macrolets in the lexenv. 15:33:13 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.67.69] has quit [Quit: adu] 15:33:26 One common use is to fake compiler-let via symbol-macrolet and macroexpand-1. 15:34:54 This is for lisp-unit, there is an assert-expands form for testing macro expansions. It ultimately ends up in macroexpand-1, I'm just trying to understand what is going on. 15:35:03 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:27 I think I need to understand it if I'm going to get internal testing of lisp-unit completed. 15:35:54 tmh: does the macro call macroexpand-1, or does it expand into code that calls macroexpand-1? 15:35:57 Testing the tester, so to speak. 15:36:02 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 15:36:36 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082A6D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:43 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:36:50 clhs in-package 15:36:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_in_pkg.htm 15:37:22 -!- billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:37:34 pkhuong: See lines 164 and 183. https://github.com/OdonataResearchLLC/lisp-unit/blob/master/lisp-unit.lisp 15:37:39 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.173.231.205] has joined #lisp 15:38:00 Line 146 is the assert-expands macro. 15:38:20 jikanter [~jikanter@66.146.192.29] has joined #lisp 15:38:45 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B327F8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:39:31 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.131.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:40:08 I don't know what it's trying to do, but it's wrong. 15:40:15 Hah1 15:40:17 ! 15:40:24 You can't use an environment object once the macro expander has returned. 15:40:42 I've used a custom declaration using sb-cltl2 stuff the last time instead of using the macrolet trick. Much nicer I reckon. 15:42:24 pkhuong: assert-expands passes the environment to expand-macro-form, essentially macroexpand-1, to expand the macro as an argument to expand-assert for testing. 15:42:45 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 15:42:58 pkhuong: I'm not saying it's correct, I'm just trying to understand it to make sure I'm testing it correctly and also correct anything that doesn't make sense. 15:43:05 no, expand-macro-form computes a form that will perform the expanison later. 15:43:20 Ah, yes. 15:45:40 adu [~ajr@64.134.67.69] has joined #lisp 15:46:57 wanderingelf [4817e03d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.61] has joined #lisp 15:47:14 pkhuong: I've never used assert-expands or seen its use. When I started trying to understand the code and generate internal testing I ran into issues. 15:48:50 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:36 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 15:52:30 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55:31 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:56:00 Anyone have recommendations for doing matrix operation in CL? GSLL, CLEM, MatLisp, something else? 15:56:09 *operations 15:56:10 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:57:02 luis: I use sb-alien and BLAS or LAPACK. 16:00:25 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:49 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host28-186-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:03:06 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:28 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:05:40 rien__ [~rien_@static-71-249-187-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:19 -!- Raykon [~user@194.210.228.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:06:36 -!- rien_ [~rien_@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:06:55 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:08:05 leo2007 [~leo@222.79.249.212] has joined #lisp 16:08:45 pkhuong: did you try the alternatives? 16:09:10 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:09:30 luis: nope, I'm already used to the suffering. 16:09:55 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:10:13 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has joined #lisp 16:10:39 -!- rien__ [~rien_@static-71-249-187-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:41 rien___ [~rien_@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:10:53 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:11:02 -!- rien___ [~rien_@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:11:25 luis: gsll seems to work well and its author is pretty helpful 16:11:55 rien_ [~rien_@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:07 luis: and lhealy is usually around in case you have problems 16:12:36 pkhuong: :-) 16:13:07 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:13:27 fe[nl]ix: I think the authors of those 3 libraries are pretty helpful :-) 16:15:05 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 16:15:21 -!- rolando [~user@55.43.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:15:44 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:16:25 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:53 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:17:30 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 16:17:34 I've used matlisp a bit. Works for the little bit of matrix stuff I've needed lately. 16:17:37 -!- reav_ [~reav_@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 16:18:02 Kruppe [~user@134.117.27.3] has joined #lisp 16:19:13 -!- algal [~anonymous@92.26.7.209] has quit [Quit: algal] 16:19:42 algal [~anonymous@92.26.7.209] has joined #lisp 16:19:48 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-18-94.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:58 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:23:17 luis: Give GSLL a try, it should work well. 16:23:19 Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has joined #lisp 16:23:40 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:45 Is there a library that would provide mathematical set operations on lists? 16:24:16 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:21 CL? 16:24:31 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-186.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:50 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 16:25:28 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has joined #lisp 16:25:41 pkhuong: re your comment on using the environment once the macroexpander has returned, the `(macroexpand-1 ',form ,env) expansion ends up in lambda for that gets evaluated when the test is run. So, the env that comes from assert-expands is not valid, but it probably should be getting the lexical env of the lambda form at the time of the test? 16:26:03 s/ends up in lambda for/ends up in a lambda form/ 16:26:20 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:45 Feel free just to tell me my question is nonsense. I'm trying to understand details of lisp that I've never bothered with before. 16:29:38 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:29:40 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Quit: sellout] 16:31:11 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:31:32 srolls [~user@c-76-126-212-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:57 Hum. For some reason I'm not particularly a fan of the expansion of (destructuring-bind (a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z) nil) on SBCL. 16:32:27 I'm having a hard time being a fan of the original expression. 16:32:41 Hey, it could happen! 16:33:06 classic GIGO there 16:33:48 *nyef* points out that the compiler can eliminate most of the code in the expansion. 16:33:58 Oh. 16:34:11 actually, did I ever file that bug? destructuring-bind is slow in SBCL 16:34:23 because it walks the list twice: once to figure out the lenght, and once to bind the arguments 16:35:14 astoon [~astoon@94.25.195.73] has joined #lisp 16:35:31 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:35:33 It also binds the list structure once to figure out things, and then binds the declared names in a second pass, instead of using the right names "inline". 16:35:56 Though maybe that's optimized away by the sufficiently advanced compiler, too. 16:36:18 snearch [~snearch@f053010232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:37:11 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:35 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:13 I believe the only thing that's not optimized away by the sufficiently advanced compiler is the proper-list-of-length-p check. 16:39:43 Not even for constant lists? 16:39:49 (such as, say, NIL?) 16:39:59 um. okay, maybe in that case it is, I don't know 16:40:08 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-jmgneebqtdijmwpr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:40:11 stassats: Yeah CL does have what I need, my bad 16:40:15 cheers 16:40:18 I was looking at disassembly of a (destructuring-bind (a b c) (function-call) ...) 16:40:23 -!- Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:41:03 and wondering why it was slower than (let* ((x (function-call)) (a (first x)) (b (second x)) (c (third x))) 16:41:40 -!- az [~az@89.204.153.248] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 16:42:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:43:28 -!- tcr [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:43:41 tcr [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:43:53 az [~az@p5796CC1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:11 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.67.69] has quit [Quit: adu] 16:44:34 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.234.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:45:23 Liera`` [~user@113.172.64.89] has joined #lisp 16:46:05 partly the error checking, I think 16:47:42 -!- algal [~anonymous@92.26.7.209] has quit [Quit: algal] 16:47:44 valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.234.217] has joined #lisp 16:47:50 Would it be legal to omit that in safety 0? 16:48:23 LiamH: how does GSL compare to BLAS/LAPACK performance-wise? 16:48:26 -!- Liera` [~user@113.172.35.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:48:55 LiamH: ah, it uses BLAS. Heh. 16:49:17 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 16:49:17 do you use destructuring-bind in performance sensitive code-paths? 16:49:24 not anymore 16:49:34 but it would be nice to not have to avoid it. :) 16:49:56 -!- zickzackv [~zickzackv@141.23.29.40] has quit [Quit: going home] 16:53:14 -!- tcr [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:54:33 Aside from the hyperspec, is there something I can read to get a better idea of the relation between the environment and macro? Connecting the dots by reading through the hyperspec is confusing, I need some overview. 16:55:56 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:01 tmh: cltl2 has a bit more 16:56:04 -!- sebyte [~sebyte@78.188.82.134] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:26 splittist: Thanks 16:57:16 clhs destructuring-bind 16:57:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm 16:57:43 foom: "should be signalled" so I think yes 16:57:44 numeromancer [~tschaeffe@dramail.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:11 Still, should be able to only traverse the list once. 16:58:38 yes 16:59:06 I think d-b dates back quite a while to the Great Refactoring to make sbcl build, when WHN wasn't quite sure what strategy he was going to use for macros 16:59:12 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:59:19 Right. the length check should be able to be done just like the bindings, but just checking that the almost-final cdr isn't nil. 16:59:44 then the redundant cdrs would be optimized away the same way. 16:59:45 tcr [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 16:59:46 -!- tcr [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:53 tcr [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 17:00:09 Are LAMBDA-VARs from LET-converted lamdbas with only a BIND and a single REF eliminated in favor of LVARs under not-particularly-high DEBUG settings? 17:00:30 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:11 is there any reason to have duplicate error traps? 17:01:34 -!- rmarianski is now known as rmar|out 17:03:01 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:03:04 stassats: well, if you had PC-based unwinding, you'd need one per unwind block. 17:03:29 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-18-94.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 17:03:43 Yeah, it's for debugging purposes: If you coalesce the traps you no longer know where the error site was. 17:03:54 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-53.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:04:02 That's two reasons, do you need more? 17:04:14 that's a good reason 17:04:22 brown [~user@nat/google/x-jfoizpzuakbznitl] has joined #lisp 17:04:25 -!- brown is now known as reb 17:05:51 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:56 but error site could be denoted in some other way 17:07:02 and it could coalesce them with debug 0 17:07:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-173.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:07:45 Sure, error site could be denoted by doing a conditional call to the trap instead of a branch, right? 17:08:21 Or a conditional branch to a (non-duplicated) call to the trap. Something like that. 17:08:21 thmzlt [~thomaz@24-217-48-63.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:43 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:07 sellout [~greg@64.134.66.214] has joined #lisp 17:12:34 -!- claint [~user@212.154.81.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:02 -!- astoon [~astoon@94.25.195.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:14:05 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 17:14:26 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.66.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:15:25 ignas [~ignas@85-206-22-190.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 17:15:50 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:18:23 assert-expands tests macroexpansions, but as established earlier, does not handle the environment correctly. If I understand correctly, the effect of that is that if assert-expands is in a macrolet or symbol-macrolet and uses the lexical definitions, it won't expand correctly? 17:18:45 Correctly meaning as intended. 17:19:33 assert-expands has other, bigger, problems, namely with gensyms, but I'm trying to understand this one. 17:21:58 yes, you need to capture environment to expand macrolets 17:23:20 stassats: Thanks. Is the environment object ever directly manipulated or just passed to macroexpand? 17:23:55 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.194.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:24:17 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.194.194] has joined #lisp 17:24:28 in ANSI CL, you can't do much with environments 17:24:39 antifuchs: can you shorten the refresh time on the sbcl/git mirror? 17:25:00 stassats: Thanks, that confirms my understanding. 17:25:07 cltl2 extensions have augment-environment 17:25:12 e.g. sb-cltl2:augment-environment 17:25:32 but macroexpand is not the only function which accepts environment 17:25:36 What is the current refresh time, anyway, and what version are we up to? 17:26:00 e.g. typep, constantp do too 17:26:12 (I know I committed .13 a little while ago, but...) 17:26:17 slyrus: only at the risk of running in between CVS commits, which leads to horrifying results /-: 17:26:19 which, i guess, is mostly for compiler macros 17:26:38 antifuchs: ack, ok... 17:27:09 nyef: your .13 hasn't shown up yet, I'm guessing it's an hour 17:27:15 xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db9407b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:26 stassats: okay. I think I'm starting to understand the purpose environment object. 17:27:46 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 17:27:48 30 minutes, IIRC 17:28:12 tmh: Try to get hold on an environment object on sbcl and inspect it 17:28:33 within some code involving (let , (flet, (marolet, ... 17:29:24 tcr: Okay. I found the examples in the hyperspec under macroexpand helpful. 17:29:47 slyrus/nyef: the conversion script runs on the full hour and at 30min past. 17:29:52 every hour. 17:30:09 I just pulled in your commit manually, though (: 17:30:28 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.231.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:30:43 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 17:32:29 one way to shorten synchronization is to move from cvs to git finally 17:32:41 and lose all that sourceforge offers? 17:33:04 ... what does sourceforge offer, again? 17:33:05 sourceforge supports git 17:33:11 phew 17:33:29 Saturnation [~dsouth@71.169.176.29] has joined #lisp 17:33:46 sourceforge offers horrible UI 17:33:53 sourceforge offers endless fun with its mind-destroying file release system of doom 17:34:02 Mmm. But we need some custom hackery if we want to keep our current version-numbering scheme. 17:34:06 rlinuxguy3 [~rlinuxguy@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:24 also, unmemorable download links that must be hand-tweaked to be downloaded via wget 17:34:49 that's the most annoying part 17:34:52 nyef: I don't think that's such a big problem 17:34:52 mailing lists with horrible archives and free ads at the bottom of each message... 17:35:02 nyef: something like "git describe"? (: 17:35:10 fe[nl]ix: No, not after I did such hackery already. 17:35:23 -!- rlinuxguy3 [~rlinuxguy@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:36:19 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:29 hullooo 17:36:57 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.142.243] has joined #lisp 17:41:15 Someone willing to help out a newbie with marcos? Particularly from chapter 17 of Land of Lisp... 17:41:30 macros as well... :) 17:42:15 Liera``` [~user@123.20.57.157] has joined #lisp 17:43:35 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:43:49 -!- Liera`` [~user@113.172.64.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:44:00 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:44:25 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:44:58 Saturnation: Just ask. 17:46:55 Is the code at http://landoflisp.com/wizard_special_actions.lisp correct? In particular the use of game-action... 17:47:09 (game-action dunk ...) 17:47:12 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:38 *Saturnation* gets a "SETQ: variable DUNK has no value" exception... :( 17:48:27 the code seems correct, buy my limited knowledge at seeing the problem... 17:50:05 Saturnation: What do you see if you (macroexpand-1 '(game-action dunk ...))? Use paste.lisp.org to show. 17:50:37 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:51 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-104-132.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:51:27 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:51:58 -!- benny [~benny@i577A74C4.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:52:31 Bronsa [~brace@host9-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:52:43 Xach, Same exception without any other output :( 17:53:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:53:15 BUT, I do now have a weld function defined :/ 17:53:21 or dunk 17:53:34 whatever I defined with game action 17:53:52 Saturnation: Then the error is at macroexpansion time. You should be getting a stack trace. Can you post it? 17:54:14 Is there something special to enable the trace in CLISP? 17:54:36 *Saturnation* 's been very disappointed in the exception reporting thus far in CLISP... 17:55:28 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:36 Saturnation: What's your environment?... Are you using the CLISP REPL in a console?... If so, you should take the time to setup/learn emacs+Slime, probably. You'll have plenty of interesting facilities like easy stack trace.s 17:57:15 Hexstream, Plan on it when I finish up Land of Lisp and dive into Practical Common Lisp 17:57:46 testing my assumptions and found a bad one 17:57:47 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.33.203] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:57:49 Saturnation: It seems to me not having a workable environment will significantly hamper your learning. 17:57:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.33.203] has joined #lisp 17:58:04 The code I typed in instead equivalent to the code in the URL 17:58:36 attila_lendvai: Hey are you there? 17:58:36 wow, my brain to fingers connection via my english really isn't working well today... :( 17:58:52 ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@4.84-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:08 Hexstream, Agreed, but being bloody minded about following the book at the moment 17:59:35 Thanks Hexstream and Xach for the help 17:59:37 Liera```` [~user@113.172.65.133] has joined #lisp 17:59:44 Saturnation: You're welcome. 18:00:07 Saturnation: you can just use Quicklisp to setup SLIME. 18:00:15 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@213.246.117.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:00:28 Is Luke still working on SLIME? 18:00:48 Saturnation: http://quicklisp.org. i, too, am working through LoL. QuickLisp has been very helpful. 18:00:54 -!- Liera``` [~user@123.20.57.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:01:23 Saturnation: no he's trying to get rich nowadays 18:02:01 vokoda [~user@host86-179-139-237.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:13 hmm... what is ASDF_TMP- again? 18:02:19 ASDF-TMP- that is 18:02:26 GeneralMaximus, I'm just finishing up Chapter 17. I think it would be hell at times without some prior understanding of Lisp, but I am definitely getting some value out of it 18:02:33 slyrus: probably something to do with sb-grovel... or Fare. 18:03:00 Saturnation: well, i'm a n00b too and i got a lot of mileage out of QL. ymmv :) 18:03:02 why does it get prepended to the name of all of my fasl files? 18:03:06 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-32-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:11 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-18-94.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:24 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:49 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:03:56 benny [~benny@i577A74C4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:04:00 rwiker [~rwiker@208.84-48-39.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:46 -!- vokoda [~user@host86-179-139-237.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:04:46 vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 18:04:54 QL is more of a library management system as opposed to a tutorial though, right? 18:05:25 slyrus: to work around SBCL's writing partial fasls. if the compilation succeeds, ASDF then renames the file to its intended name 18:05:58 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:06:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:06:47 Saturnation: that's right 18:06:50 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:06:59 Ah, ok. thanks fe[nl]ix 18:07:15 Saturnation: you can get some very well-written libraries with it, though. and reading good code is a good way to learn, too (: 18:07:29 (so I'd classify it under learning tools, but not as a tutorial) 18:10:52 mrSpec [HOST217X42@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:12:46 -!- Liera```` [~user@113.172.65.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:13:39 Reading is good, but if I can't tell when I should or shouldn't be quoting something in a macro, then I need to work more on my reading skills 18:13:49 no points for guessing where the bug was :) 18:14:13 which is why I'm being bloody minded about reading the books first 18:14:38 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-18-94.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 18:14:44 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:47 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:17:21 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:18:21 The expansion of (destructuring-bind (&key this is quite inefficient) my-list) seems pretty ridiculously inefficient on SBCL... For each keyword, we walk down the list to see if the keyword is supplied, throwing away the value and then we walk down the list a second time to get at the same exact place and then return the value this time... 18:18:32 -!- rmar|out is now known as rmarianski 18:18:40 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:19:14 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:19:21 patches are welcome! 18:19:47 I hope bug reports are welcome too, cuz I'm busy, you know. 18:20:14 "seems inefficient" doesn't make a good bug report 18:21:03 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@122.173.231.205] has quit [Quit: See you in another life.] 18:21:06 there is a more accurate description further down in the bug report 18:21:35 koning_robot: are you speaking of Hexstream's statement? 18:21:35 adeht: Oh please. We walk down a list twice for no reason. Of course that won't particularly matter if you have just 2 keyword arguments... 18:21:48 adeht: yeah 18:22:21 oh please. you can handwave all you want, but at least benchmark code & measurement is expected 18:22:33 That's ridiculous. 18:23:03 there ain't no such thing 18:23:04 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:23:30 as free lunch.. every change incurs a price.. you need to show that it's worth the price 18:24:25 ak70 [~ak70@46.11.10.227] has joined #lisp 18:24:35 if destructuring-bind is your bottle-neck, then you're doing something wrong 18:24:54 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 18:26:11 I thought SBCL prides itself on its performance among other things, but maybe I was wrong. 18:26:33 I suppose you're gonna take your basketball home now? 18:26:34 a real programmer can write bogosort in any language. 18:26:49 adeht: Yes, I will. 18:26:53 ...or any implementation, no matter how much it optimizes (: 18:27:14 -!- ZabaQ1 is now known as ZabaQ 18:27:50 Hexstream: in any case, I am not an sbcl dev. you can post your stuff in the sbcl mailing list and maybe someone will care enough 18:28:17 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:28:31 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 18:28:32 carlocci [~nes@93.37.205.183] has joined #lisp 18:28:33 you just need sufficient smart clippy: "looks like the code you're writing is inefficient. Do you want help?" 18:30:12 stassats: http://vigor.sourceforge.net/ is a start ;) 18:30:39 stassats: I don't see why anyone should assume that DESTRUCTURING-BIND is being purposely inefficient and avoid it like the plague. 18:31:18 is this somethign that happens at macro expansion time or at run time? 18:31:26 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:27 rwiker: run time. 18:31:46 no matter how well you'll make destructuring-bind, it still will be less efficient than other solutions 18:31:47 are you writing performance-relevant code that uses linked lists? 18:31:58 I postulate that anyone who does that deserves to lose (-: 18:32:23 Hey all. 18:32:31 antifuchs: but linked lists is an efficient way to represent linked lists 18:32:44 My quicklisp is borking when it attempts to install cl-ppcre 18:32:57 what does it say? 18:33:02 It fails after being unable to find 18:33:02 unenana [~unenana@ANantes-552-1-71-81.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:33:16 rwiker: If this had been a macroexpansion time inefficiency, I wouldn't have given a shit. *That* is expected to be not-performance-critical. 18:33:19 unable to find what? 18:33:21 stassats: I have no idea what to say to that (: 18:33:21 -!- ak70 [~ak70@46.11.10.227] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:33:21 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 18:33:46 mascotte [~mascotte_@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-18-189.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:34:03 Sorry just looking up the error message 18:34:26 -!- unenana [~unenana@ANantes-552-1-71-81.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:29 antifuchs: i meant that if linked lists is what you need, then they're good 18:35:00 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:35:50 #P"home:.asdf-install-dir;systems;packages.lisp.newest" 18:36:20 asdf-install, what's it doing there? 18:36:38 -!- lundis [~lundis@dyn56-476.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Fear not, I will return] 18:36:46 Causing problems, no doubt. 18:37:14 Perhaps I need to blow away an existing install of cl-ppcre? 18:37:15 By the way, if I understand correctly, that code is used to parse all keyword arguments everywhere. So every time you call a function with keyword arguments that don't get optimized away, you pay the penalty. 18:37:19 that's the definition of asdf-install, but why adamvh is using it? 18:37:45 adamvh: What error or message do you get when you (ql:quickload "cl-ppcre")? If it's long, use paste.lisp.org. 18:37:59 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:37:59 That's exactly the error message 18:38:19 adamvh: Please paste a transcript, then. I don't understand the message. 18:38:25 Condition of type FILE-NOT-FOUND 18:38:30 konr [~user@ira.lab.ic.unicamp.br] has joined #lisp 18:38:38 File #P"home:.asdf-install-dir;systems;packages.lisp.newest" not found 18:38:38 [Condition of type FILE-ERROR] 18:38:50 adamvh: That's after typing (ql:quickload "cl-ppcre")? 18:38:55 precisely 18:39:20 adamvh: what does (asdf:system-source-directory "cl-ppcre") report? 18:40:08 (Oh, maybe it's just used by defmacro too after all.) 18:40:18 #P"home:.asdf-install-dir;systems;" 18:40:31 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:40:33 Hexstream: nope, AFAIK, the compiler can (and does) optimize keyword parsing on calls that have known-constant keyword args 18:40:35 ah, well. 18:40:47 ttb [~frinnn@i59F6108A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:40:50 -!- _ism [~frinnn@i59F6108A.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:40:51 I installed it once via ASDF-install a while ago 18:40:58 on SBCL 18:41:02 (I'm on CCL now) 18:41:07 adamvh: You might want to remove or rename your .asdf-install-dir and restart lisp. 18:41:26 <_8david> ... and this is why clbuild nulls out asdf's stupid registry defaults 18:41:41 noob question: how do I figure out where .asdf-install-dir is? 18:41:48 adamvh: it is in ~/ 18:42:02 adamvh: that's what the #p"home:..." stuff means. 18:43:05 oh, by the way: my new sbcl formula for homebrew got accepted. this means that on the mac, you can now use "brew install --HEAD sbcl" to get the latest git head, or "brew install sbcl" to get the 1.0.44 release. 18:43:21 -!- Kruppe [~user@134.117.27.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:43:55 Bingo. 18:44:00 Thanks, Xach. 18:45:32 No problem. 18:46:15 -!- ignas [~ignas@85-206-22-190.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47:19 Kruppe [~user@134.117.27.3] has joined #lisp 18:50:15 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:51:09 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:53:13 Brew is... a source package manager for OS X? 18:53:31 *nyef* would have thought it for cellphones. 18:54:18 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:54:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-242.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:55:16 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.194.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:55:23 -!- vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:45 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.182.238] has joined #lisp 18:59:03 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-53.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:04 dcooper8 [~dcooper8@c-69-136-155-211.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:22 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-jfoizpzuakbznitl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:01:35 -!- rwiker [~rwiker@208.84-48-39.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:49 Hi, i have a quick pathname question... 19:02:21 what is the best way to strip the pathname-name and pathname-type off from the *source-pathname* (or *load-truename*) 19:02:43 dcooper8: to produce a directory-only pathname? 19:03:14 yes exactly 19:03:22 dcooper8: The best way I know of is (make-pathname :name nil :type nil :defaults *load-truename*) 19:03:28 ok 19:03:32 that looks good, thanks 19:03:36 *Xach* uses that in quicklisp's setup 19:03:44 i was doing (directory-namestring *load-truename*) 19:03:54 but of course that breaks on windows because it drops the device 19:03:54 dcooper8: I was, too, but that breaks on Windows. 19:05:47 brown [~user@nat/google/x-ohlqlnalkefzjtmp] has joined #lisp 19:05:51 -!- brown is now known as reb 19:08:00 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:08:04 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:28 (defmethod total-size ((container ring-buffer)) 19:09:28 (total-size container)) 19:09:30 ...what? 19:09:44 thankfully it's #+Ignore, but still 19:11:28 Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:41 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 19:12:04 maybe a joke? :) a ring-buffer has infinite size 19:12:16 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.234.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:13:04 well no, it has a fixed size 19:13:16 mathrick: I hoped you'll get what I meant 19:13:31 *you'd 19:13:34 yeah, but it'd only be infinite in the run time either way :) 19:14:08 heiz [~heiz@ppp89-110-11-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:18:08 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:21:34 -!- Kruppe [~user@134.117.27.3] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:21:34 asdf-tmp is my fault 19:22:30 it's how I compile into a temporary file that only replaces the previous file on success, atomically. 19:22:41 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:22:48 this prevents the horror of half-built .fasl files that pollute the build 19:22:57 a common gripe for ASDF 1 19:23:05 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:55 nyef: AFAIK, BREW the cellphone thing is an API/ABI/platform, not really a package manager 19:26:09 CL has a whole gaggle of open modes, none of which do the only thing anyone actually wants other than "open in place and leave well enough alone". :) 19:26:13 naryl: yes, it is. 19:26:36 naryl: os x only, comes with a very sane set of policies (compared to macports or fink), and is dead easy to extend. 19:28:48 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:33 Kruppe [~user@134.117.254.249] has joined #lisp 19:31:31 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:34:42 hello lispers. can anyone confirm if I've gotten this right http://paste.lisp.org/+2JQD 19:35:07 its an ASCII art presntation of the condition type hierarchy 19:36:25 Isn't WARNING a subtype of CONDITION? 19:37:46 yes, thanks 19:39:06 nyef: got thrown by simple-warning b/c of the simple-condition/warning 19:39:27 tcr1 [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 19:40:01 jdz [~jdz@host8-107-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:40:11 -!- tcr [~tcr@80-218-246-66.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:41:07 i have a question about that TCONC problem i mentioned yesterday... http://paste.pocoo.org/show/324167/ 19:41:58 since "tc" is a cons, shouldn't line 23 of the above paste be: ((A) . A) ? 19:42:15 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:42:22 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 19:42:32 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:42:49 no 19:43:13 pattern: From the spec, no: The CDR of the tc should itself be a cons, not an atom. 19:43:30 hmm 19:44:29 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 19:44:29 but it says "A TCONC is the cons of a list and its last cons cell." 19:44:36 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 19:44:47 doesn't that make the TCONC just a cons, not a list? 19:45:32 actually, nevermind 19:45:35 rgrau [~user@80.31.142.135] has joined #lisp 19:45:36 All conses are lists. 19:45:37 i think i got it.. 19:46:03 but (A . B) is a cons but not a list, right? 19:46:23 It's a cons which happens to be an "improper" list. 19:46:28 ah 19:46:36 (A . NIL) is a "proper" list, as it ends in NIL. 19:46:43 NIL itself is a list, but not a cons. 19:49:04 -!- pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has quit [Client Quit] 19:49:32 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 19:51:20 cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:14 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:54:55 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-18-94.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:06 nyef: do you happen to know if the spec requires condition explicitly named initargs? 19:55:22 e.g. cell-error :initarg :name? 19:55:35 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:57:54 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 19:58:52 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:00:42 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7576f5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:25 -!- tmh [6c491a1c@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:01:33 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:02:24 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:54 tmh [6c491a1c@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 20:02:59 I don't remember, sorry. 20:04:32 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:05:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:06:15 np 20:08:05 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-186.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:22 _ism [~frinnn@i59F63836.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:14 -!- ttb [~frinnn@i59F6108A.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:13:58 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:15:13 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-32-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 20:16:38 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:05 hi 20:17:34 two questions: 20:18:01 1) is there any cl library for graphic applications in Lisp? 20:18:34 Posterdati: yes 20:19:01 *Xach* hopes #2 is also easy 20:19:02 I mean if it is possible to create a graphic interface for Lisp programs 20:19:02 2) which is the best way to implement finite state machines? 20:19:02 thanks 20:19:10 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 20:19:33 *Xach* doesn't know the best way, often writes small FSMs with LABELS. 20:19:47 I use tagbody/go for small fsms 20:20:06 Xach: I'm in difficult to choose from web based interface or standard window, forms or dialog based interface 20:20:17 I tend to reach for a let-over-lambda style of state machine storage 20:20:46 or, a lambda that returns a new lambda which represents the new state, depending on how complex it is 20:20:47 what about saving the status? 20:21:06 special var or returning the changed state value? 20:21:14 don't use special vars 20:21:19 for state machines 20:21:39 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:21:44 so will you return the new state? 20:21:45 that prevents you from making multiple machines easily 20:21:51 and store it? 20:22:11 yeah, that's a more functional style, which can end up easier depending on the circumstances 20:22:25 a state machine really shouldn't get too big in code, no matter how you choose to implement it 20:22:26 in c I did void fsm_my_machine(char *pStatus) 20:22:34 if it is a truly large state machine, get your macro-fu on 20:22:42 ok 20:22:52 I'm going to develop a scheduler 20:22:59 for a robot 20:24:21 so I need a very few-states machine :) 20:25:40 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:26:18 ok 20:26:19 thanks 20:26:21 ppl 20:26:24 silenius [~silenus@dslb-088-072-025-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:37 (let (...state storage...) (labels ((state1 (..params..) ..returns another state function...)) ... return initial state function) 20:26:40 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:27:01 probably the style that xach was describing, too 20:29:24 stassats: just glancing through that bump free thread on cl-pro; there's a posting where you could trump the slime-cover card 20:29:28 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 20:30:19 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host9-185-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:31:52 it still isn't in the upstream 20:33:58 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 20:35:35 >[you can] rewrite "(let ((a 1)(b 2)) (+ b a))" as "((lambda (a b) (+ b a)) 1 2)" 20:35:40 holy hotpants turing :O 20:36:00 and now this thread is no reddit too, with even worse discussion... 20:36:04 s/no/on/ 20:37:45 Seriously, the "Lisp is broken" thread on [pro] made it to reddit? 20:37:49 ttb [~frinnn@i59F63836.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:38:17 *tmh* doesn't read reddit. 20:38:18 tmh: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/f5vdb/common_lisp_has_gone_stale_the_common_lisp/ 20:38:35 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:39:01 *stassats* must be using some entirely different Common Lisp 20:39:16 francogrex [~user@109.130.119.52] has joined #lisp 20:39:28 -!- _ism [~frinnn@i59F63836.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:40:38 I actually drafted 2 different responses to that thread but discarded both in the hopes that it would die. 20:41:08 stassats: eh. This comes up on a regular basis. Is this any different from every other time some person has flailed their arms and published such a thing? 20:41:31 sykopomp: Not at all, it's the same song, second verse. 20:41:55 tmh: Feels more like we're playing 99 bottles. 20:42:13 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:31 obviously cobol is the language of the future and lisp will die out ;> 20:42:47 s/cobol/language du jour 20:42:56 *sykopomp* would probably get paid more for writing COBOL than what he does writing Lisp. 20:43:03 *stassats* puts all criticisms of Lisp away to not distort his reality 20:43:09 but would you be happy? :D 20:43:30 NO I WOULD NOT BUT I WOULD BE VERY YELLY ALL THE TIME. 20:43:43 pnq [~nick@AC81196E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:45 sykopomp: looks like lisp 20:43:58 except with less of those weird brace thingies! 20:44:09 stassats: Difference is that with Lisp, it's the Lisp yelling back at you like a deaf grandfather. 20:44:27 *Landr* snuggles the platonic S-expression 20:44:35 "defun foo..." "WHAT'S THAT?! DEFUN FOO?" 20:45:11 it's not a real language unless it spouts back angry messages at you 20:45:29 lol 20:45:43 i mean, the only time you ever hear of it is if something has gone wrong 20:46:11 either that, or you're not a real programmer. your code should be so aggravating that the language will hate you for having to allow it 20:46:44 *sykopomp* wonders how well a compiler with an attitude would be taken by its users. 20:47:03 cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:07 "i don't feel like using 32 bit integers today, 28 is my best offer" 20:47:10 sykopomp: I would love it! 20:47:36 especially one with a passive-aggressive optimizer. "Yeah, I *could* do it that way, if you *really* want me to..." 20:47:56 "pshaw, you call this a fixnum... " 20:48:08 sounds like SBCL's optimizer. 20:48:12 "something went wrong, somewhere over there, maybe, i don't care, really" 20:48:13 heh 20:49:04 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:49:24 That reminds me of INTERCAL. :-) 20:50:10 "There will be no deep copy. What do you think I am C++?" 20:50:59 with intercal you need to be polite enough 20:51:07 but not too polite 20:52:20 My first university class was about INTERCAL. We were taught the basics of the language (operators, data types) and the homework was to draw Pascal's pyramid using it. 20:53:03 eh? 20:53:04 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:55:11 grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:41 -!- thmzlt [~thomaz@24-217-48-63.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:57 The indentation in LoL is really schzido 20:57:15 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see] 20:57:51 which lol? land of lisp, let over lambda, or the other one? 20:57:52 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 20:58:01 LoL is Land o' Lisp 20:58:01 what's the verdict of what LoL is understood to stand for? Lisp on Lines? Land of Lisp? Let over Lambda? 20:58:10 LOL is Let O'er Lambda 20:58:21 oh now I know :) 20:58:25 aha 20:58:47 and lOl for lisp on lines? 20:58:54 I was gonna ask that 20:59:11 OK, I'll continue to be explicit until I've grok the channels culture... :) 20:59:20 BTW, what Xach said 20:59:22 Lisp on Lines is Lioli 20:59:22 I feel the sudden urge for a good ol' fashion book burning. 20:59:41 only one book? 20:59:49 -!- Kruppe [~user@134.117.254.249] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:54 *Xach* was wondering why tmh wanted to burn fashion books. 21:00:22 -!- hyko- is now known as hyko 21:00:24 because there is no lisp in them anymore 21:00:25 *Saturnation* wonders if this is the place to whinge about LAND OF LISP... 21:00:39 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:01:10 this isn't a place to whinge. Try digg.com 21:01:45 Don't get me wrong, I like the book and am definitely getting some value out of it, but... 21:02:17 A book about games that uses random in an implementation that uses the same seed for random each time you fire it up!?!? 21:02:30 21:02:42 -!- cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:02:58 hah 21:03:12 Small, but major 21:03:15 Saturnation: you need to seed it yourself 21:03:21 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:29 *I* know that, but it is NEVER mentioned in the book 21:03:41 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:11 *Saturnation* goes back to implementing lazy thingo's in Lisp... 21:04:42 I'm sure that somehow, your complaint will reach the author and he will fall on his knees, begging your forgiveness, and then recall all his books to fix his most egregious oversight. 21:04:45 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 21:05:53 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:06:00 Deesl [~bsdboy@122.161.3.197] has joined #lisp 21:06:07 While sarcasm sometimes loses its way on the inter tubes, I sense that last statement was generously sprinkled with it... :P 21:06:18 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@122.161.3.197] has quit [Changing host] 21:06:18 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 21:06:43 Saturnation: You could always email the author and ask if it was intentional. 21:06:49 *Xach* has had good luck emailing authors 21:06:57 speaking of books, how would one go about getting their hands on a copy of Lisp: Style and Design? 21:07:25 Saturnation: we're pragmatists here, both in our language and our communications :) 21:07:32 Better yet, just mention it in the forums, or if I really cared (and had the time) check the forums to see if it has already been mentioned 21:07:38 -!- silenius [~silenus@dslb-088-072-025-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:07:55 OK, whinging really is a waste of time, please just ignore me... :) 21:08:02 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:09:08 does anyone here have an opinion on Lisp: Style and Design? 21:09:54 The Norvig & Pitman presentation? 21:10:03 the book 21:10:10 rien_: http://lispm.dyndns.org/news?ID=NEWS-2006-05-28-1 has some info 21:10:12 -!- splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: In my opinion, I've never heard of it.] 21:10:39 *Xach* has no opinion 21:11:00 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 21:11:06 Xach: I think I found that link via your website :) 21:12:28 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:12:30 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:39 I'll try and see if a local library has it 21:13:47 argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.10] has joined #lisp 21:14:10 -!- dcooper8 [~dcooper8@c-69-136-155-211.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:16:09 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 21:17:22 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:33 out of curiosity, who many people here make a living out of writing lisp code? 21:18:09 here 21:18:26 yep 21:19:38 *Xach* points at luis 21:21:33 I do 21:24:10 *antifuchs* raises a hand 21:24:10 -!- prip [~foo@host80-133-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:24:48 also, tcr, Krystof and lukego (: 21:25:51 fusss, drewc, all the ITA folks 21:26:15 *dlowe* is an ITA folk 21:26:52 so yeah, I guess we get by (-: 21:26:58 dlowe, is that orbitz? 21:27:00 blimey, I have to find a CL coding gig.. 21:27:02 ah, n/m 21:27:10 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:27:34 Last I heard, we were still hiring. 21:27:43 If you feel like moving to sunny Florida. 21:28:10 oh, oh, and attila_lendvai and the other rad hungarian lisp dudes. 21:28:32 Does their dialect still count as CL? :D 21:28:45 HCl 21:29:33 sykopomp: there's a way to get from CL to their dialect, so I suspect it does (: 21:29:50 we're hiring if you feel like moving to cold, miserable Cambridge 21:30:12 there's a way to get from CL to C 21:30:13 http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/2010/12/22/lisp-developer-mcna-fort-laurderdale-florida/ <-- 21:30:20 put my name on the application :p 21:32:05 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-32-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:06 sykopomp: Wrong side of pond for me. :-( 21:32:18 sykopomp: I heard the company only looks for locals atm 21:32:36 dlowe, lisp newbies even? :) 21:32:46 Saturnation: if you can code, sure 21:32:49 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:32:53 *Saturnation* is "just" up the road in Vermont 21:32:59 adeht: Or people willing to relocate. 21:33:09 dlowe, getting there one day at a time 21:33:12 *sykopomp* moved from Minnesota. 21:33:16 sykopomp: I see 21:33:32 Saturnation: http://www.itasoftware.com/careers/ 21:33:42 thanks, checking it out now 21:34:03 and you get to say you worked with Edi Weitz, even though he's probably just going to stay in Yurop. 21:34:35 :P 21:34:42 *Saturnation* wonders if an Australian Honours degree is equivalent to the US's Masters degree... 21:35:49 Deesl [~bsdboy@59.161.131.122] has joined #lisp 21:36:04 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:10 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@59.161.131.122] has quit [Changing host] 21:36:10 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 21:36:43 sykopomp: and with H4ns (-: 21:36:56 *Phoodus* raises his hand at Saturnation, a bit late 21:37:33 prip [~foo@host1-128-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:37:41 -!- mrSpec [HOST217X42@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:37:41 hey, lisp is a long-forgotten language, don't distort its image! 21:37:46 (although we do other languages for library integration and web clients) 21:38:17 antifuchs: with H4ns?! 21:38:24 sykopomp: he's at ITA now, too, IIRC 21:38:35 mrSpec [HOST217X42@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:38:38 antifuchs: I was talking about my employer. Heh. 21:38:44 oooh. whoops (: 21:38:54 -!- krappie__ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:39:01 krappie__ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 21:39:08 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:39:24 I was wondering if Edi was still at ITA (: 21:40:59 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.182.126] has quit [Quit: hugod_] 21:43:49 don't think so 21:49:10 Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-40-145.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:49:14 -!- Edward_ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-39-62.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:14 dlowe: those are some cool code challengs they have :) 21:50:05 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 21:50:52 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.33.203] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:51:09 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:51:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:41 rien_: yeah, it gives you priority over people that don't do any 21:52:58 I'll do them anyway even though I have a job and would never move to Florida :) 21:53:16 I'll start with the 51 millionth character one :) 21:53:21 rien_: wrong company. 21:53:33 ITA is in Cambridge, MA 21:53:34 I knew I was confusing something! :) 21:53:36 rien_: yeah, we're in Cambridge, MA, not Florida 21:53:37 ITA is a bit north of florida. 21:53:47 and freezing today, apparently 21:53:58 I'm in NYC so ITA isn't too far then 21:54:51 I caught Fare outside my office, and he said he might schedule a boston-lisp meeting soon again 21:55:28 -!- algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:56:01 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:56:31 does ITA have a nice philosophical reason for using/encouraging/liking Lisp? 21:56:56 it was founded by a couple lisp hackers? (-; 21:57:07 It gets the job done? 21:57:17 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@211.177.88.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:57:18 antifuchs: oh that's a good reason 21:57:19 and gets the job done fast? 21:57:30 nyef: well, I was expecting something particular to them only :) 21:57:59 I wish my company would see that 21:58:27 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:58:27 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:59:11 rien_: found your own company! 21:59:11 *Saturnation* wishes there was a Dartmouth Lisp group... 21:59:24 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:59:38 stassats: I will one day 21:59:54 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:57 and then I'll hire you :) 22:01:11 -!- algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:01:29 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:02:21 so, anybody understand what Nick's talking about in pro mailing list? How does load-system avoid not loading everything? 22:02:27 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 22:02:48 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-118-246.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:02:56 Is this a feature of LW's defsystem that ASDF doesn't have? 22:03:19 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.182.238] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:03:51 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.119.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:06 I guess it has to do with the file's mtime 22:04:44 if that is also stored somewhere in the image 22:04:48 Hmm, it makes sense that that would stay around when you dump the image. 22:05:55 -!- cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 22:06:27 I have to try this out at work. *facepalm* 22:06:46 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.71.45] has joined #lisp 22:07:56 porcelina [~x_@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:59 -!- algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: algal] 22:14:21 valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.234.217] has joined #lisp 22:16:41 algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:16:53 francogrex [~user@109.130.119.52] has joined #lisp 22:17:31 anyone know how to make a socket listener in sbcl? 22:18:27 It's a fairly straightforward use of sb-bsd-sockets, surely? 22:18:35 porcelina: sb-bsd-sockets will let you make a socket, LISTEN and ACCEPT on it. if you want something that's portable, usocket is a very good library that works across implementations 22:18:46 (and it's a bit simpler than sb-bsd-sockets (-:) 22:19:03 i think sb-bsd-sockets is what i want. i'm just having trouble finding examples. 22:19:14 and it's been like a year since i've touched lisp. T_T 22:19:22 Look for a web server somewhere, then? 22:19:27 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:19:36 -!- js0000 [~js@67.208.188.68] has quit [Quit: weekend- w00t!] 22:19:52 my recommendation is to go with usocket; it has documentation (-: 22:19:59 (and it works very well) 22:20:23 kk i'll give it a try. :) 22:22:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-242.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:29 good luck (: 22:23:54 Alrighty, enough studying for the day... 22:24:01 *Saturnation* installs clg 22:25:41 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@155.31.174.10] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:25:41 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:26:23 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:10 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:41 damn, ubuntu didn't seem to install the package :( 22:28:54 well, it did, but not correctly apparently 22:29:20 Oh? 22:29:33 vokoda [~user@host86-179-139-237.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:35 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: siberian tigers are extraordinary] 22:29:55 Wait, clg 0.93 or so? 22:29:57 "package "GTK" not found" :( 22:30:03 qzg [~qzg@64.19.13.162.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:11 0.94 from memory 22:30:33 just trying to load the hello-world.lisp in /usr/share/doc/cl-clg/examples 22:30:37 Oh, good. That might have the type-expansion stuff fixed. 22:30:43 in both sbcl and clisp 22:31:13 isn't there a trigger to install packages and isn't it called when updating packages ?!? 22:31:31 You probably need to load the package before you build the example. 22:32:00 (If the example is anything like the version I have locally.) 22:32:07 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:13 OK, just learning here, so load?!? :) 22:32:17 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:32:54 OK, I'm with you now 22:33:00 According to the README file I have here, and I don't know if it applies to your system, (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :gtk) 22:33:04 but still not remembering how to load a package :) 22:33:06 Saturnation: www.quicklisp.org 22:33:23 although I'm unsure whether it has clg 22:33:33 thanks adeht, I'll get there soon enough :) 22:33:36 This readme is from upstream 0.93, not whatever you installed. 22:33:40 Good morning everyone! 22:33:49 Hello beach. 22:34:01 -!- algal [~anonymous@78-86-30-77.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: algal] 22:34:11 How'd I manage to read the TODO, but not the README :) 22:34:27 Hey beach. 22:34:27 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.142.243] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:02 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:02 nyef, not quite, but off to dinner... 22:37:17 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.119.52] has left #lisp 22:38:32 timack [~tim@hlfx62-2a-210.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 22:39:31 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:41:41 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:42:36 -!- xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db9407b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: xraycat] 22:42:59 -!- qzg [~qzg@64.19.13.162.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 22:45:48 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:46:17 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:47:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:49:06 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:51:02 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:42 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:52:13 -!- mascotte [~mascotte_@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-18-189.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:52:14 ahh... finally solved that tconc problem 22:52:47 thought i might have to beat my head against it for a third day... 22:53:23 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 22:53:35 s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 22:54:04 -!- tmh [6c491a1c@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 22:54:27 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:56 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:57:30 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:58:04 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:23 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.237.60] has quit [Quit: be back later] 22:59:52 -!- s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:00:17 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 23:00:35 *mathrick* is surprised to find out that CLHS doesn't define AVERAGE 23:01:16 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 23:01:55 -!- numeromancer [~tschaeffe@dramail.com] has left #lisp 23:02:07 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:02:12 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:04:20 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:07 pattern: So now you know how lists are represented and passed as arguments? 23:06:33 yeah... i knew that before 23:06:57 Er, no you didn't. 23:07:31 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:07:50 [unless "before" means "a day or two ago"] 23:09:46 everything is a lambda S-expression FUNCTION VALUE ENVIRONMENT 23:09:57 well, that's how I just dreamt it being half-awake 23:10:23 michael` [~user@207.178.208.5] has joined #lisp 23:14:13 the problem i was having was not that i didn't know how lists were represented and passed as arguments, but rather how i could get rplacd to refer to the element i'd just added on to the end of the list in the car of the tconc 23:15:03 gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has joined #lisp 23:16:17 and through lots of diagramming and experimentation in the repl, i was finally able to get it to work 23:16:38 grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:01 i still probably need a lot more practice with this sort of thing to truly get comfortable with it and not be surprised at what the repl returns when i try to create this or that list or cons 23:18:07 well, what's the difference between (1 2 3 4 5 . 6) and (1 2 3 4 5 6) ? :> 23:18:33 there's no nil at the end of (1 2 3 4 5 . 6) 23:18:41 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:18:48 but there is at the end of (1 2 3 4 5 6) 23:18:49 indeed! 23:18:52 that's easy 23:19:20 Landr: have you tried to solve the tconc problem yourself? 23:19:27 where is it? 23:19:38 http://paste.pocoo.org/show/324167/ 23:19:51 and you can only use these functions and operators: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/324163/ 23:19:53 -!- jikanter [~jikanter@66.146.192.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:20:02 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:22:06 i must say it does feel good to finally solve it.. 23:22:16 i was beginning think i was a complete idiot 23:22:17 so, it's a fifo list? 23:22:51 kind of 23:22:54 but that's not all it is 23:23:12 the point is to make appending to the end of the list not require a full traversal of the whole list 23:23:22 that's what the cdr of the tconc is for 23:23:28 mathrick: Not only doesn't it define AVERAGE, it doesn't define HUMDRUM or BLAH either. 23:23:32 it's a reference to the last element in the list in the car of the tconc 23:24:19 note that it's not just a copy of the last element ... it's a reference to the last element 23:24:50 -!- xvilka [~xvilka@109.170.106.227] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:25:01 nyef: uhh, yes, but it defines many mathematical function, some of them fairly esoteric 23:25:05 *functions 23:27:17 mathrick: it doesn't even define erf. 23:27:47 mathrick: Submit it to Alexandria (unless it is already in there). 23:28:03 beach: that's a good point 23:28:05 *mathrick* checks 23:29:09 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ebg-10004083621.jpl.nasa.gov] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:29:17 malbertife [~Adium@bl11-214-22.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:31:12 I'm fooling around with sb-ext:get-time-of-day trying to approximate what Emacs returns for current-time 23:31:30 Can anyone tell if this looks right on a 32bit system http://paste.lisp.org/+2JQI 23:32:16 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:32:28 mon_key: How is current-time specified? 23:33:08 two 16 bit values and micro (msb lsb usec) 23:34:20 mon_key: it's (byte ), so if they're 16-bit, the size should be 16. 23:34:54 e.g. (byte 16 16) and (byte 16 0) for high and low. 23:35:07 cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:32 Xach: Ok i'll try again `byte' makes my head hurt (: 23:36:04 hindmost [~laurence@84.51.182.69] has joined #lisp 23:36:20 (integer-length (sb-ext:get-time-of-day)) => 31 23:37:17 still time left before 2038, then. 23:37:19 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 23:37:53 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:37:57 not that much! only 27 years. 23:38:05 it's closer than you think 23:38:29 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 23:38:33 'course, people were still adding new Y2K bugs in 1995, so... 23:39:08 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:39:31 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:41 the singularity will clean all of it up 23:40:25 How will we survive the Y2.038K bug? 23:40:32 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-210-28.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:40:35 Is the plan to drop 32-bit CPUs before then? 23:40:49 and upgrade all filesystems, etc. 23:40:50 it seems so 23:40:57 32 vs 64bit CPUs are irrelevant 23:40:58 So (ldb (byte 16 16) <31-BITNUM>) says to mask the bits low bits? 23:41:07 just use an OS with a 64bit time_t and you're set 23:41:13 "just" 23:41:33 well, for instance, OSX has always used 64bit time_t, even before it ran on any 64bit processors. 23:41:34 mon_key: That's a 16-bit right shift. 23:41:39 is there any popular 32-bit OS with a 64-bit time_t? 23:41:45 mon_key: (ldb (byte 16 16) number) is the same as (logand #xFFFF (ash number -16)) 23:41:47 foom: nice 23:42:03 Arbitrary limits are awesome 23:42:19 anyone here use clsql and know how the :pool t argument is supposed to appear to work? I see no pooled connections... 23:43:31 cheez: I haven't tried it in a long time, but I remember it doing what I expected at the time, i.e. keeping a number of connections and using a lock to check for free ones 23:44:19 it seems like glibc ought to start offering a _BIG_TIME_T define, with associated duplicate syscalls in linux. 23:44:28 Xach: thanks, I think I'm going to have to insert some print statements :D 23:44:43 so much larger than life 23:44:45 similarly to how 64bit file offsets were handled. 23:44:47 I also found the same variables but not convinced that their values are meaningful 23:44:52 -!- malbertife [~Adium@bl11-214-22.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:03 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053010232.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:45:10 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-104-132.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:46:05 foom: even better would be to stop using gettimeofday 23:46:39 fe[nl]ix: yeah, everyone should switch to clock_gettime. Oh wait, it also uses time_t. 23:46:43 ... 23:47:12 -!- jdz [~jdz@host8-107-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:47:12 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:47:23 ah, struct timespec uses time_t too 23:48:59 Xach: print statements verify that connection pooling is working as expected. Now to figure out if sqlite can actually handle the way it is being pooled. ISTR sqlite3 likes to be used in only one thread after creation. 23:49:22 Or we could just stop with the X ought to be enough for everybody stuff and do things properly 23:49:40 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 23:51:59 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:16 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:57 Fare: did you see the "amd32"/"x32" ABI work being done? 23:53:37 Xach: btw thanks. 23:54:10 the goal being to take the amd64 ABI (incl use of extra registers/etc), and making an equivalent ABI with 32bit longs/pointers. 23:54:25 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:54:35 to what purpose ? 23:54:37 -!- porcelina [~x_@c-174-51-110-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:54:39 So you get the speed improvement from the extra registers and processor features, but without the overhead of 64bit pointers that you aren't using. 23:59:36 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]