00:00:15 *rtoym* can't figure out how to get automake/libtool to make a shared lib with lib dependencies to make matlisp easier to build. 00:01:15 I'd consider breaking down and figuring out what the binary would look like, and write a lisp program to spit such a binary out. 00:01:29 But then, I'm reasonably happy limiting myself to SBCL/Linux as a target. 00:01:46 hi Blkt 00:02:00 rtoym: what do you mean "lib dependencies" ? 00:02:14 rtoym: well I see a bunch of math and scientific libraries on the common lisp directory, but I'm looking for one which hasn't been abandoned. 00:02:46 Kruppe: linear algebra hasn't changed much in the last decade. 00:03:08 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 00:03:22 The performance profile and optimization techniques for SBCL, however, have. 00:03:36 fe[nl]ix: I want to dlopen libblas.so and automatically get -lgfortran loaded. 00:03:56 pkhuong: yes I suppose that's true, that's not all that's important about a library though. 00:04:07 fe[nl]ix: I think that's how that works. It's been a while since I"ve done this stuff. 00:04:23 rtoym: isn't libblas.lso linked to libgfortran.so ? 00:04:36 pkhuong: Most of them will probably work though, you're right. 00:05:15 fe[nl]ix: Well, that's what I'm trying to do. I want libtool to create libblas.so linked to libgfortran.so. Whatever I do, ldd (otool) doesn't show that. 00:05:36 ah 00:05:38 rtoym: keep in mind that OS X linking is crap (: 00:05:46 rtoym: that is, inter-library dependencies. 00:06:10 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 00:06:21 OS X linker stores the absolute pathname of the library in the .dylib, and it will only attempt to load from that pathname. If you want to distribute that .dylib file, your users had better install the libraries in the same place as you. 00:06:51 Is that a limitation of the linker or the loader? 00:06:57 antifuchs: That is pretty sucky. 00:07:01 it's a limitation of OS X, afaik 00:07:09 it's documented (but the pieces are all over the place) 00:07:25 I solved it by dlopening the requisite libs. (coming full circle) (-: 00:07:38 Yes, but if it's the linker, you can "just" spit out the right binary. If it's the loader, you're SOL. 00:07:45 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:52 nyef: AFAICT, it's the loader and the file format. 00:07:53 rtoym: an example: https://github.com/sionescu/libfixposix/blob/master/Makefile.am 00:08:02 rtoym: search for LDADD 00:08:17 it stores only the full path (checked with a hex editor), and the loader doesn't want anything but full paths. 00:08:25 there are "weak" dependencies, but they're even worse. 00:08:37 Eesh. 00:08:53 Every time I hear more, I'm /so/ glad I run linux on my mac hardware. 00:08:58 oh, and forget about fudging LD_LIBRARY_PATH and LD_PRELOAD at run time. 00:09:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:09:11 Even with the damage and stuff-not-working. 00:09:18 loader won't accept anything in that value that's not present when the binary is launched. 00:09:40 which isn't very surprising, but would have been /so/ useful when I needed it (: 00:09:53 can't somebody rewrite the runtime linker ? 00:10:04 (No suspend-to-ram, a choice between suspend-to-disk and hardware video acceleration, custom kernel hacks, and so on.) 00:10:08 sure, it should be open source 00:10:09 but 00:10:34 fe[nl]ix: But your example doesn't have libfixposix depending on any other library. 00:10:45 you can't expect your users to do that (: 00:11:14 rtoym: it does. it depends on libraries specified in $(LFP_LDFLAGS) - which is computed inside configure 00:11:18 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:24 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:11:53 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11:58 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12:25 fe[nl]ix: Oh, the LIBADD. Hmm. Perhaps this is a bug in OSX or libtoo/automake. I need to export this directory and try it on linux. 00:12:33 Er, libtool 00:14:00 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 00:14:46 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 00:14:51 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:14:51 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:14:52 But to be useful to me, I would still like it to work on osx somehow. Otherwise, I'll just leave the current config stuff for matlisp as is. That works, with a bit of trial and error to figure out the magic configure flags. 00:15:03 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 00:15:11 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:17:55 lemoinem [~swoog@153-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:41 http://siyobik.info/pastebin_download.php?id=569 <- Error: "test" (line 1, column 59): 00:18:42 unexpected end of input 00:18:42 , expecting "edit_domain_id=" 00:18:42 . What am I doing wrong in my Parsec code? Essentially I want /edit_domain_id=.+?>(.+?) Oh those sneaky hidden newlines 00:19:07 Wrong channel, too. 00:19:08 ... Parsec? wasn't that *Haskell*? 00:19:15 :/ I'm sorry 00:19:16 No, that's correct. 00:19:29 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:42 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-71-146-132-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:43 kuffaar: that's why I kept #xmonad in between #haskell and #lisp 00:20:06 I actually have several channels between them, I have no idea why it ended up in #lisp instead 00:20:32 Then when you type stuff to #xmonad accidentally you can claim it was meant for stumpwm 00:20:39 Haha 00:20:59 brown [~user@nat/google/x-zxgxayzqnuilbere] has joined #lisp 00:21:01 (Has anyone tried stumpwm? How does it compare to xmonad?) 00:21:05 -!- brown is now known as reb 00:21:40 adeht have you tried stump? 00:22:03 jesusabdullah: it's like ratpoison. try it! 00:22:12 I use xmonad on my netbook, and I've used ratpoison previously 00:22:32 If window management with stump works as well as with xmonad, I could definitely see it being a compelling alternative 00:22:48 especially since I actually know a few lisp phrases 00:23:05 like, (donde-esta el-ban~o) 00:23:48 Hmm 00:23:57 Yeah, once I finish my thesis I'll have to give stumpwm a shot 00:24:39 I'm not a mouse hater though 00:24:46 I use my mouse in emacs all the time, too 00:24:46 Yeah, neither am I 00:25:01 The author of xmonad actually uses vim, heh 00:25:04 I like to have the option of avoiding touchpad action, though 00:25:17 Window resizing with a touchpad is painful 00:25:23 Hah 00:25:26 I use vim <_< 00:25:32 Haven't gotten around to trying slimv 00:25:36 or slime, for that matter 00:25:38 You use vim for Lisp? 00:25:44 Indeed 00:25:51 Nothing too crazy 00:25:56 I'm also new to lisp though 00:26:04 I did for a while, I used \t instead of spaces 00:26:06 and emacs didn't end up winning over my heart 00:26:13 I use spaces <_< 00:26:25 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.178.124] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:26:25 But now that I use emacs I've become more tolerant towards spaces in general 00:26:33 I'm terrible. As long as I have syntax hilighting, I'll happily manually space things left AND right 00:26:37 Even in other languages where I traditionally used \t only 00:26:43 o_o 00:26:54 seangrov` [~user@173-228-44-24.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:59 You manually hit the spacebar to achieve indentation on every new line and it doesn't bother you? 00:27:05 Exactly! 00:27:29 Marotte [~Marotte__@sthomas.net1.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:40 You, sir, are clearly out of your mind. 00:27:44 >:D 00:27:54 Or, lazy enough to work harder in order to avoid work. 00:27:56 ;) 00:28:01 Anyways: Real work awaits! 00:28:35 jesusabdullah: why would you ask Lisp where's your bathroom? 00:28:48 It's more like, I understand lisp about as well as I do Spanish 00:28:50 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:29:08 Point taken, though: I'm not sure Lisp would know where to find the bathroom 00:29:15 Even CL has its limits! 00:29:18 lambda-avenger [~roman@adsl-99-170-145-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:34 kuffaar: I use some CL plugin for indentation on vim. 00:30:42 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:57 So, speaking of my thesis reminded me: Has anyone here used ecl? 00:31:33 In particular, I'm interested in using ecl to program a microprocessor 00:33:13 Anyways! Work calls 00:33:21 -!- Yuuhi [~user@p5483A270.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:33:21 jesusabdullah: well, technically, we are all using microprocessors. Just remember that it uses Boehm-GC and such details, and as long as you have some POSIX compatibility lib you can get it to work 00:33:38 jesusabdullah I installed it once and briefly tried the REPL to see how memory hungry it was 00:33:47 SBCL was like 35 MiB of non shared memory, ECL was only 8 MiB 00:33:47 s/microprocessor/microcontroller/ 00:33:49 herp derp 00:34:18 I'm thinking of using the CL-->C tool, and then compiling the generated C code to run on an MSP-430 00:34:23 jesusabdullah: lol I think you can forget about that 00:34:34 Even ECL is far too large for an uC, no? 00:34:34 MSP-430? 00:34:49 Oh, CL -> C hm 00:34:58 kuffaar: Indeed 00:35:06 you might need something more powerful - while it doesn't care too much about low-level details, a 16bit uC is pushing it 00:35:13 kuffaar: yes, I used stumpwm for a while 00:35:24 Heh, and now you're back to Gnome? 00:35:28 an ARM-based micro will work very well, though you might prefer to have at least 16MB of ram 00:35:33 Yeah, sure 00:35:40 tbh I just hate working in C 00:35:48 Running Lisp on any uC would be quite impressive :p 00:35:49 also, on ARM, if you are going for a big device, you can try CCL 00:35:58 or, rather, don't feel like it 00:35:59 jesusabdullah: you can try porting something like clisp as well 00:36:24 another way is to write a compiler in CL that uses some form of CL to generate assembly for MSP-430 00:36:30 see Parenscript 00:36:36 hmm 00:36:40 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:36:41 it was also common thing at NASA JPL 00:36:51 (back when Lisp ruled the day there) 00:36:52 lisp --> assembly? 00:36:53 -!- Kruppe [~user@134.117.254.249] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:36:55 You mean? 00:36:57 That makes sense 00:37:12 jesusabdullah: -> -> assembly 00:37:29 I probably won't have time to pursue it too much :( 00:37:47 The sad thing about research is that you often don't have time to find the "best" way, just *a* way 00:37:50 you can even write various kinds of tools into the image, so you can do more than just "compile, load, debug" cycle 00:38:13 Yeah, that's true 00:38:33 arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:38:36 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Changing host] 00:38:36 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 00:38:37 Alright, I'd better get my poster laminated. Thanks for entertaining me y'all 00:38:57 my last embedded project (that i considered) was kinda among the lines of SPARC V8 or SPARC V9 ^^; 00:43:05 heina [~heina@h220-215-160-087.catv02.itscom.jp] has joined #lisp 00:44:36 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-85.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:46:12 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:47:36 -!- ymv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has quit [K-Lined] 00:50:02 -!- gko [~gko@111.70.46.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:50:29 gko [~gko@111.70.46.34] has joined #lisp 00:53:12 -!- bencc [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has left #lisp 00:54:25 the msp uses some kinda mips I think 00:56:14 cl-mpd has stalled? 00:56:43 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:58:07 -!- tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:58:59 -!- heina [~heina@h220-215-160-087.catv02.itscom.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:59:26 mytoh [~mytoh@h220-215-160-087.catv02.itscom.jp] has joined #lisp 00:59:28 tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:42 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC2378C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:55 mephisto_ [~mephisto@airmarshal-v217-219-233.airyork.yorku.ca] has joined #lisp 01:07:35 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:08:50 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.207] has joined #lisp 01:09:59 -!- Blkt [~Blkt@dynamic-adsl-94-37-227-177.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please!] 01:10:09 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-209-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:10:58 cliftonk [~cliftonk@74.198.150.157] has joined #lisp 01:13:02 fe[nl]ix: Still working out a few kinks, but it seems to be working on linux. ldd says libblas depends on libgfortran, as expected. 01:13:29 So, I guess this means it's a bug in either libtool or osx. 01:14:45 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-209-222.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:20:01 -!- Guest80187 is now known as xristos 01:20:18 -!- gko [~gko@111.70.46.34] has quit [] 01:21:04 -!- cliftonk [~cliftonk@74.198.150.157] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 01:25:38 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-80-98-24-21.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:28:05 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 01:28:08 fe[nl]ix: And your example modified for matlisp does put in the dependency of liblapack on libblas. Cool! But doesn't include the dependency on libgfortran. Bummer. 01:28:19 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:55 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.233.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:31:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-3-126.vodafone.hu] has joined #lisp 01:32:16 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:18 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-71-146-132-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:36:28 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:38:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:19 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:42:10 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:45 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:49:29 -!- Marotte [~Marotte__@sthomas.net1.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 01:49:59 im stuck dealing a lot with alists, and getting tired of (let (foo (cdr (assoc foo some-a-list ...)))) esp. when i want to get many keys 01:50:37 macro work ofc. 01:51:01 but a lot of the keys are proper keywords and won't fit in a let-binding 01:51:32 is there any canonical way of generating normal symbols out of those? 01:51:46 yes, but why do you deal with alists 01:51:52 old code 01:52:22 cannot change that aspect unfortunately 01:52:38 I have some with-alist-values ((keys alist &key (keywords t)) &body forms) macro 01:53:09 so i ended up on (read-from-string (make-symbol (symbol-name :annoying-keyword))) 01:53:15 seems to work but feels oh so dirty 01:53:33 adeht: how did you handle that? 01:54:47 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118821 01:55:54 thx 01:58:53 alists are ((key . val) (key . val)) type things? 01:59:02 :S 01:59:13 yes 01:59:21 Lists of associated pairs. 02:00:47 hmm 02:01:06 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-165.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:01:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@apn-94-44-3-126.vodafone.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:03:22 (apply (lambda (&key key1 key2 key3 &allow-other-keys) ...) (loop for cons in alist collect (car cons) collect (cdr cons))) ? 02:03:30 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-209-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:04:06 Or maybe use something other than an alist? 02:04:07 What do &things mean? 02:04:19 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-165.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 02:04:26 Sorry :( 02:04:34 nyef: destructuring-bind + alexandria:alist-plist? 02:07:42 jesus: Look up lambda lists. 02:08:02 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:08:10 Zhivago: Thanks 02:11:15 adeht: Oh, sure, if you want to do it the easy way. :-P 02:12:12 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16] has joined #lisp 02:12:12 Are alists out of vogue these days? Or are they just deficient for this particular application? 02:12:22 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16] has quit [Client Quit] 02:12:25 Really, though, this sort of "problem" just screams "I'm using alists where I really want a real object system". 02:12:31 Which application? 02:12:51 Whatever johanbev is doing 02:12:59 A-lists require linear scans, can be constructively extended by prepending. 02:13:09 nyef: I agree.. though I needed it for cl-json objects 02:13:12 If those are features that you want, then by all means. 02:13:54 hmm 02:15:02 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:15:42 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 02:15:51 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-32-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:09 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 02:16:20 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:16:29 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 02:16:29 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Client Quit] 02:16:32 nyef: i wish this code was written with clos in mind 02:16:33 structs and muffed-variable funcalls all the way 02:18:48 -!- mytoh [~mytoh@h220-215-160-087.catv02.itscom.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:32 You can still discriminate on structs in a defmethod. 02:19:54 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 02:21:28 maybe, but im not sure if it is worth refacotoring all this code now (big project with old-fashionded lisp code) 02:22:05 Possibly not worth refactoring all of it now, but incremental refactoring is rarely a bad idea. 02:23:21 you are probably right, guess I initally tought my new piece was going to be small, but then it got a bit bigger :) 02:23:57 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-165.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:24:24 Scope creep, or inadequate estimate? 02:24:40 master-thesis :) 02:24:47 so I guess a bit of both 02:24:47 :o 02:25:00 Ah. 02:25:05 You get to use lisp for your masters? Nice. 02:25:10 <--matlab here ;_; 02:25:12 so it is "science-ware" as well 02:25:23 yep I am a happy man for that 02:25:47 What's the goal of your research? 02:25:59 im working on natural language processing 02:26:07 Neato 02:26:10 Ooh. 02:26:16 so in very folksy terms "creating skynet" :) 02:26:19 Numerical methods here 02:26:24 cool cool 02:26:53 so im approximating typed feature structure grammars with context free grammars 02:27:05 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-46-44.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:21 for general purpose parsing 02:27:27 hmm! 02:27:27 even get to run lisp on the big iron 02:27:42 "big iron"? 02:28:01 Cool. I just used a workstation. 02:28:05 machines with lots a ram mostly 02:28:12 256 GB and the like 02:28:21 Ahh. 02:28:26 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.10.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:28:32 Exciting. 02:28:33 (not just for me ofc) 02:28:48 but i use a fair share of that :) 02:29:13 I think the most ram I've ever had in a machine was 4GB... And the machine is now dead, and the ram sits back in its package because I have no machines that can use it. :-/ 02:29:20 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-123-254.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:29:21 :( 02:29:29 bummer 02:29:55 Yeah. Stupid nvidia chipset. 02:30:22 Oops. 02:30:30 Didn't mean to hijack the conversation like that. 02:30:45 So, typed feature structure grammars, huh? 02:30:48 yep 02:30:57 hahaha 02:30:58 they are turing complete 02:31:35 however the specified grammar is what one could call "nearly context free" 02:32:00 not relying too heavily on the expressive power beyond that 02:32:19 so an approximation can be useful in many cases 02:33:11 typed feature structures is just graphs with some type-lattice spice thrown in 02:33:29 it is very elegant to work with but can quickly become costly to manipulate 02:34:59 So you're approximating them with CFGs, which are well-known and relatively cheap to work with? 02:35:43 indeedf 02:36:15 Cool. 02:36:23 CFGs can be parsed in polynomial time 02:36:28 as im sure you know 02:37:36 and there is a lot of interesting statisical stuff one can do with them and treebanks (parsed text corpora) 02:37:41 jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:29 Mmm... Something I've been meaning to look into for a while is how to get access to / copies of corpora, and how expensive it would be. 02:39:18 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:39:19 what do you do? 02:40:01 Mainly compiler work these days, but I find NLP and speech technology to be interesting. 02:40:06 http://www.ldc.upenn.edu/ is one place to look i guess 02:40:18 cool cool 02:40:58 any speficic nlp-fields that interest you the most? 02:42:06 Right now, I'm not sure. 02:42:24 I've done more reading about various things than actual programming or anything. 02:42:29 or maybe, what do you want to do with it is a better question? 02:43:07 nyef: a mother board is not that expensive. Hurry, soon the investment you made with those 4GB will be worthless. 02:43:40 pjb: SODIMMs, so it'd have to be a laptop. 02:44:03 eBay. 02:44:15 I don't think they'd fetch much on eBay. 02:44:41 Oh, that's not for the money, but it would be a shame if they were useless. 02:45:19 johanbev: One of the things I'd like to see is the old idea of a "programmer's assistant", with a spoken-language interface. 02:46:35 Another thing that could be cool is combining speech technology with psychotherapy, particularly hypnotherapy. 02:46:58 in the sense that you told the computer to display various documentation etc.? 02:48:31 And ask the computer to perform certain analysis, make changes to the software being worked on, extrapolate possible reasons why something behaves the way it does, and so on. 02:48:52 hehe, thats perhaps a bit more tricky 02:49:03 It's not unambitious, I'll admit that. 02:49:14 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-15-183.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:49:22 -!- bgs101 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night] 02:50:02 one idea i think could work is to do statistical inference on bugs, ie the assistant suggest likely causes for bugs or run-time errors 02:50:52 Yeah, things like that. 02:51:00 probably easiest in the iterative development stage, ie. when new code is tested for the first time and such 02:51:22 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:52:15 Probably most useful in conjunction with a large, established codebase, particularly if the assistant system has prior experience with the codebase even if the programmer doesn't. 02:53:46 sounds very nice, but its hard to get intuitions (at least for me) if this thing could be made to work 02:54:27 but in this case i think the spoken dialouge system would be the least tricky bit to get right 02:54:32 Yeah, so right now I've been doing the background reading to see if I think it's plausible... Or if even part of it is plausible. 02:55:30 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ztulbnsxwcmizazc] has joined #lisp 02:55:33 johanbev: oh, are you talking about Programmer's Apprentice? 02:56:13 Right, I'd gotten to the point where I figured that most of the dialogue stuff could either be done with an off-the-shelf dialogue manager or could at least start with an off-the-shelf component. 02:56:21 p_l|backup: Yes, we are. 02:57:37 I should add that viable English TTS is currently a feature of mobile phones 02:58:04 and that voice orders are quite well working if you can suffer need for network access 02:58:09 Anyway, once I figured that the dialogue part wouldn't be horrible, that left the bits involving information extraction from documents, creating/editing documents, and doing actual programming stuff. 02:59:08 TTS works acceptably most of the time but the other way around is more variable i would say 03:01:18 sounds fun but quite difficult 03:02:19 Yeah, I just spent about a week reading papers on "abstract interpretation", which was fun, but almost none of them described intercessory systems, they were all just the analytical side. 03:02:57 automata [~vilson@187.112.161.13] has joined #lisp 03:03:41 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-32-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 03:05:21 hmm, me myself is also climbing the ivory tower i guess, sometimes i wish I had a chance to look at more big proper NLP users 03:06:06 but not too much of those outside academia in Norway alas 03:08:17 Never did the academia thing, myself. Maybe one day. 03:09:16 idunno, im really happy here, considering grad-school, but I miss getting my hands dirty 03:09:39 i also miss finising up software tools really properly 03:10:24 but anyhow, it is stupidly late and i should really sleep, good luck on your project and all 03:12:35 Thanks, you too. 03:12:38 Sleep well. 03:13:04 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:15:03 cya 03:24:16 -!- seangrov` [~user@173-228-44-24.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:29:35 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:29:36 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:49 seangrove [~user@184.233.98.110] has joined #lisp 03:35:04 huangho [~vitor@201-15-185-29.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 03:35:28 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:36:11 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:36:15 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:34 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 03:41:34 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:55:37 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 03:56:19 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:37 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:01:10 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-14-52.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 04:01:10 gumpa [~max@p5790F60F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:32 -!- gumpa_ [~max@p5DE8D75A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:04:25 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@airmarshal-v217-219-233.airyork.yorku.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:14 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@153-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:38 lemoinem [~swoog@139-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:56 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:50 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-110-168.washdc.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:09:41 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: statonjr] 04:11:55 -!- az_ [~az@p4FE4FAAF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:16:05 lazwebuser52 [43ab8317@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.171.131.23] has joined #lisp 04:16:23 -!- lazwebuser52 is now known as lazr 04:16:33 -!- lazr is now known as lazr_ 04:17:07 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:17:32 -!- lazr_ [43ab8317@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.171.131.23] has quit [Client Quit] 04:17:52 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-57-204.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:19:02 az [~az@p5796C852.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:03 property list: 2. (of a symbol) the component of the symbol containing a property list. 04:20:09 -_-; 04:22:53 -!- bigjust_ is now known as bigjust 04:25:53 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-18-17.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:27:30 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-14-52.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:41 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:31:51 Landr: in Lisp, we try to be direct and clear. 04:32:10 if it's a property list, we don't call it the attribute vector. 04:32:24 and recursive? :> 04:32:41 if that's the most direct and clear way to express it, yes. 04:33:17 actually i understand what property lists are, I just don't understand why I only get the function value of a symbol if I do symbol-plist, and not the value as well (if a symbol shares two such objects, a value and a function) 04:33:23 Landr: also, notice how formal semantics are defined: always by reference to yet another formaly system. 04:33:40 Landr: with lisp, we define it in lisp, hence the fundamental recursion. 04:34:12 Landr: in the early lisps, you had everything stored on the property list, the value, the name of the symbol, etc. 04:34:30 But in CL, the function binding and the value binding are stored elsewhere. 04:34:34 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1677.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:34:36 hmm 04:34:43 *Landr* tries in SBCL 04:34:54 What you get on the propertylist must be something implementation dependant, like the source of the function, or something else altogether. 04:36:08 Landr: there's a lesson in here too: do not use keywords or standard symbols as keys for your property lists, since doing so might give rise to collisions. 04:36:53 sbcl gives me nil :/ 04:37:12 you mean don't define my own functions to overwrite built-in ones? 04:37:41 -!- automata [~vilson@187.112.161.13] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 04:37:43 This is forbidden too. 04:38:22 WARNING: DEFUN/DEFMACRO(+): # is locked 04:38:24 indeed 04:39:13 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-9-138.w92-146.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:39:21 gozone [~textual@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:31 Well, actually, you can disable this check (in implementation dependant ways), or it is not necessarily present. You should just avoid doing that. 04:39:54 The reason is that a CL compiler may consider that all the functions in CL are 'inline' or something like that. 04:40:54 hmm 04:41:24 well, at least i now understand the 'S -> S relation 04:42:27 mephisto_ [~mephisto@airmarshal-v217-219-233.airyork.yorku.ca] has joined #lisp 04:42:38 -!- seangrove [~user@184.233.98.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:43:08 (setf S "bottom layer") (setf R 'S) R --> S (symbol-value R) --> "bottom layer" 04:43:11 (defun plist-keywords (plist) (loop for (key) on plist by (function cddr) collect key)) 04:43:12 (let ((r '())) (do-symbols (s "CL-USER") (setf r (union (plist-keywords (symbol-plist s)) r))) r) 04:43:34 Landr: what you wrote depends on the context. 04:43:54 If you get this result, then you should have named your variable *S* instead of S. 04:44:00 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:44:03 from what i get, symbols are fancy pointers, no? 04:44:20 Not really. 04:44:25 symbol is a few pointers and a name :D 04:44:41 a bunch of pointers then :P 04:44:44 (let (s r) (setf S "bottom layer") (setf R 'S) (symbol-value R)) --> nil 04:45:00 works for me 04:45:06 (i mean, i get "bottom layer") 04:45:10 I know. 04:45:20 so why didn't you? o.O 04:45:23 And this is why you should have not named it S in the first place. 04:45:38 You should not setf an undefined variable. 04:45:49 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-14-52.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 04:45:49 When you do, you get implementation dependant behavior, such as what you got. 04:45:55 clisp does it on the fly :P 04:46:12 -!- gozone [~textual@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 04:46:15 Yes, but what it does, is a defvar, which declares the symbol as a special variable, with dynamic binding. 04:46:29 so does let, no? 04:46:35 no 04:46:37 err, wait 04:46:41 dynamic is local scope? 04:46:49 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:52 Try: (let (s r) (setf S "something else") (setf R 'S) (symbol-value R)) 04:47:08 there is no local, there is dynamic and lexical. Let me find this nice article on CL variables. 04:47:09 -> "something else" 04:47:15 dynamic is not lexical. In both case you can have global or local bindings. 04:47:36 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/463463/dynamic-and-lexical-variables-in-common-lisp ? 04:47:42 Landr: yes, that's because r is a special variable. 04:47:52 why? 04:48:13 oh wait, i thought you meant "to lisp it means something and can't be used as a normal variable" 04:48:16 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:32 It's in russian :( 04:48:34 gozone [~textual@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:40 Ok, the Stack Overflow is ok too. 04:48:56 http://random-state.net/log/3498750808.html 04:49:15 -!- gozone [~textual@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:54 Landr: if you try: (let (ss rr) (setf Ss "something else") (setf rR 'Ss) (symbol-value Rr)) you'll see the difference. 04:50:04 (actually you should get an error, not NIL). 04:50:33 *** - SYMBOL-VALUE: variable SS has no value 04:50:33 evening 04:50:42 hmm, i think i am starting to get it 04:51:01 wait, no 04:51:05 Landr: this is because a lexical binding creates a variable named by the symbol, but doesn't change the symbol-value slot of the symbol. 04:51:31 so where does it store it then? a per-function temporary table? 04:51:50 ebg [~textual@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:51 Landr: basically, symbols are used to NAME things. Occasionnaly, things are 'stored' in their slots, such as a special variable value, a property list, or a function. 04:52:07 Landr: indeed, a lexical binding can be stored on a stack frame, or in a closure. 04:52:15 but you have to reserve space for them (define them) to make sure they're lasting? 04:52:21 so... it's like heap vs stack? :> 04:53:10 Well, lexical bindings usually behave like a stack, yes, but you can enclose them in a closure and escape the lexical scope. 04:53:31 and when you let a variable in a function, the "function temporary table" overwrites the global table (with the persistent symbols)? 04:53:35 -!- jomatv6 [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:53:49 (let ((v 0)) (defun f (x) (incf v x))) (list (f 3) (f 1) (f 0)) 04:54:14 jomatv6 [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has joined #lisp 04:54:22 closure? 04:54:52 Landr: You're talking about implementation details. There's no notion of "function temporary table" or "global table". 04:55:16 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:55:26 well, for back of a better way to describe "the variable is only accessible within the scope of the let/function it was called with as a parameter" 04:55:30 lack* 04:55:42 Landr: moreover, once a symbol is declared special (globally by a defvar or defparameter form, or locally with a declaration), all bindings are special instead of lexical. 04:56:14 In the case of a special binding, it is accessible dynamically, outside of the lexical scope. 04:56:52 (defvar *e* 42) (defun g () (format t "in g: *e* = ~A~%" *e*)) (defun f () (let ((*g* 11)) (g))) (f) 04:57:52 There's no predefined way to have a global lexical variable, (but there are ways to implement them, using symbol-macros). 04:58:10 You can also have special variables that are only local, not global: 04:58:37 hmm, i see, f's variable setting does not carry over to functions f invokes 04:58:38 (defun g () (declare (special *f*)) (print *f*)) (defun f () (let ((*f* 42)) (declare (special *f*)) (g))) (f) 04:59:03 For special variables, the binding in f carries over to g. 04:59:15 nifty 04:59:29 Oops, I write *g* in f instead of *e*. 04:59:43 (defvar *e* 42) (defun g () (format t "in g: *e* = ~A~%" *e*)) (defun f () (let ((*e* 11)) (g))) (f) 05:00:18 ah, so it does carry over? 05:00:20 Yes. 05:00:29 so why is there the declare special thing? 05:00:45 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:00:59 (declare (special *f*)) is to make a local special variable, with dynamic binding, without creating a global variable. 05:01:15 so one that carries over as well? 05:01:44 If you called the function g: (defun g () (declare (special *f*)) (print *f*)) from the toplevel, or an environment where no binding to a special variable *f* exist, it will give an unbound variable error. 05:02:06 Yes, it carries over. THat's the feature of special variable, to have dynamic bindings. 05:02:17 hmm 05:02:35 *Landr* is confus :< 05:02:52 i think i get it, but it's fuzzy around the edges 05:03:04 It'll come with practice. 05:03:08 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@airmarshal-v217-219-233.airyork.yorku.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:38 But the point isthat if you have a global special variable, all its bindings are dynamic, and therefore you may have surprising effects. 05:06:19 hence the earmuffs? 05:06:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:09:26 Yes. Have a look at: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118827 05:09:33 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:38 so, you have indefinite scope, lexical scope, and dynamic scope... indefinite being forever, lexical being as long as the declaration-form lasts, and dynamic scope is indefinite, but they can be (temporarily) overwritten? 05:09:54 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:10:19 Yes. 05:10:47 lexical scope is not as long as the declaration form lasts, because this is a dynamic notion. 05:11:00 lexical scope is for the textual span of the declaration form. 05:11:02 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:06 lexical means textual. 05:12:15 well, i meant something along the lines of "until the parentheses close" :> 05:12:24 Yes. 05:12:50 But again, "until" is a time related operator. 05:13:06 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:13:11 "scope that is limited to a spatial or textual region within the establishing form." 05:13:21 You must be careful because we already have a time and a space that are different. If you use the time metaphore for the space, you may confuse things. 05:13:40 hmm, i never thought of separating them 05:14:07 And in lisp, we actually have at least four different times! 05:14:14 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 05:14:20 @.@ 05:14:25 Five even: Read time, Macro expansion time, Compilation time, Load time, and Run time. 05:14:35 mattrepl [~mattrepl@c-67-180-32-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:50 So it's not prudent to use time as a metaphore of space also. 05:14:58 things can happen at load time as well? 05:15:03 Yes. 05:15:10 gah 05:15:31 This is, when loading the compiled files. Loading the source files is run-time. 05:15:51 load-time-value 05:16:02 and eval-when 05:16:15 zoinks! ldb building new SBCL 05:21:40 nostoi [~nostoi@54.Red-79-157-93.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:47 -!- ebg [~textual@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:21:56 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:01 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:22:08 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 05:22:42 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:50 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:22:53 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-15-185-29.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:23:04 cOOLz [snacoolz@gateway/shell/shellium.org/x-wtjxhxieeikvyaeq] has joined #lisp 05:23:09 -!- bigjust is now known as bigjust_ 05:23:37 -!- gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit 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quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:38:43 Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:32 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has joined #lisp 06:45:40 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:54:48 -!- adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: adamvh] 06:56:39 Liera [~vuong@113.172.33.211] has joined #lisp 06:58:50 -!- Liera [~vuong@113.172.33.211] has quit [Client Quit] 06:58:58 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:00:54 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:05:33 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-81-150.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:06:01 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has joined #lisp 07:08:45 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 07:10:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-53.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:12:08 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:14:54 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@218.235.8.175] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:16:44 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:20:59 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:21:07 good morning 07:31:40 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:31:57 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 07:38:38 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:38:57 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:45:37 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:12 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:54:09 phao [~phao@189.107.135.51] has joined #lisp 07:54:32 Sometimes I get the impression that CL is more focused on macros than Scheme is. Is that true? 07:55:56 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-162-63.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 07:56:21 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:57:27 phao: Scheme's macros are too complicated for anyone to use while CL's one are simple and clear. So people use them more 07:57:55 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:59:33 I've only used macros for little conveniences... So I'm not sure what they can actually do. I'm a scheme guy, but I don't see scheme materials talking about macro very often, so I guess that I'll need to read some CL stuff to learn about them better. 08:02:36 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:04:16 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has joined #lisp 08:08:41 as with every exotic tool: if you don't see a clear need to use it, don't obsess about it 08:09:03 phao: when you need them, you'll want them. 08:09:44 really, worst excesses in the world are commited by people wanting to use something neat for the sake of using something neat 08:09:45 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:11:16 (see C++, CLOS MOP, monads, obesity, navy, manned space programs etc) 08:12:24 IMO the best way is to use macros for everything for a few weeks, personally step on every rake and learn to use them properly. 08:12:51 Unlike your other cases, cmm. :) 08:14:01 that works too, for sufficiently goal-fucused people (of which there are much fewer than you'd like to think :)) 08:14:29 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-162-63.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:18:10 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-183-205.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:19:27 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:20:04 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 08:20:15 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-118.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:24:54 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:02 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:29:00 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-fasymvewpncauaar] has joined #lisp 08:29:10 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:35:20 Joreji [~thomas@76-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:35:32 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37:27 splittist [~John@213-192.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:37:31 morning 08:38:44 morning 08:39:27 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:40:14 -!- grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:41:56 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 08:42:29 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:44:06 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-126-99.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:37 cmm: http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/2097.html 08:47:10 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-28-104.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:48:11 grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:41 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 08:50:49 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 08:52:37 amb007: http://xkcd.com/208/ 08:53:35 [06:23] really, worst excesses in the world are commited by people wanting to use something neat for the sake of using something neat 08:53:40 cmm, what od you mean? 08:54:20 cmm: you're right :) 08:54:33 is there a function that compares two sexps and tells me where they differ? 08:54:55 Like a machine for chopping heads off. 08:55:30 ecraven: I don't know if anyone's implemented them, but there are tree diff algorithms (look in the xml literature ;) 08:56:44 ecraven: what about #'mismatch? 08:58:30 kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:55 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:08:17 ecraven: like http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/lisp/diff-sexp.lisp ? 09:09:01 very much exactly like this ;) thanks! 09:09:21 -!- beach [~user@116.118.8.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:09:45 beach [~user@116.118.8.178] has joined #lisp 09:12:48 msingh [~khali@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:14:28 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.207] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:15:30 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 09:17:02 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-74.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 09:17:44 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:17:51 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:18:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-85.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:21:40 -!- Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ...---...] 09:28:00 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:31:34 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:00 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:36:25 billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.78] has joined #lisp 09:36:41 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.150] has joined #lisp 09:40:43 "http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/2097.html" T-T 09:47:38 -!- rokstar [~rokstar@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:48:52 rokstar [~rokstar@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:27 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:59:59 Good evening everyone! 10:00:17 beach: Hi beach! 10:00:55 Hey moore33! 10:01:48 moore33: The main project I am working on is SICL, but I am still very busy now with other things. Next week I hope I'll get back to it. 10:02:38 moore33: But I have made some progress on a more difficult one: CLIM 3. 10:02:59 beach: Both of those sound like serious hacking potential. 10:03:36 Knowing you, I'm sure that CLIM 3 will have a proper spec? Or is that not the point? 10:03:38 moore33: Definitely keeps me busy, with room for others. mvilleneuve does SICL as well. 10:03:43 moore33: hello! 10:03:56 mvilleneuve: Hi! The gang's all here. 10:04:09 moore33: Yes, but I am not smart enough to write the spec without doing one implementation in parallel. 10:04:21 moore33: The implementation is called CLIMatis. 10:05:40 Better than CLIMydia ;) 10:05:49 I considered that one. :) 10:06:37 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.135.51] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:07:29 moore33: SICL is simpler (but perhaps larger) because the spec exists, and it can be done in smaller chunks. 10:07:39 yeah 10:08:18 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9EB60.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:14 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-74.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:10:10 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:11:37 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E61D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:11:46 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:11:51 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-74.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 10:17:16 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 10:19:42 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:20:41 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h-152-12.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 10:21:54 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:25:44 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:27:03 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-81-150.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27:43 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-32-119.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 10:27:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-32-119.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 10:27:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:33:03 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-89-240.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:36:45 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:38:28 ASau [~user@95-27-211-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 10:39:25 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:42:35 -!- lambda-avenger [~roman@adsl-99-170-145-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 10:43:06 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-118.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:48:39 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:49:05 [taking advantage of the silence to ask an OT question] How does one avoid that an ssh connection disconnect after a while? I tried TCPKeepAlive=yes, but no difference. 10:49:05 Joreji [~thomas@76-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:49:31 beach: how long is 'a while'? 10:50:05 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:51:18 splittist: Two minutes or so. The funny thing is that this didn't happen when the computer was connected directly to the ADSL modem, but now that I have a router as well, it happens. 10:52:13 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:54:22 beach: there's also ClientAliveInterval 10:54:39 I wonder if the router does dodgy things to keepalive messages 10:55:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:55:17 tcr1: I'll check that out. Thanks! 10:56:11 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BD9B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:27 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:59:41 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 11:03:50 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 11:04:56 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-74.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:09:46 -!- Phooodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:11:38 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 11:13:55 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-189-200.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:24 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:17:03 -!- msingh [~khali@203.171.123.8.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:21:41 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:24:48 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:27:43 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-74.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 11:29:07 tcr1: Seems to have worked (except that it is ServerAliveInterval, but hey)! Thanks! 11:33:30 I want to write a "write-service" that writes strings to files (overwrite or append) rather efficiently (for logging, but also for concurrent writes) 11:34:29 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 11:34:47 So far I thought of having a hash table with open files, that get closed after they havent been used for some time, and a lock for each file to ensure safe writing. 11:35:03 any ideas? 11:37:59 or, will that do anything thats not done already? 11:41:42 Joreji [~thomas@76-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:42:17 -!- PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:42:21 PissedNumlock [~resteven@igwe32.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:42:39 valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-118-92.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 11:45:10 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 11:48:35 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-168-158.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:48:41 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:42 gumpa: give it a try and see 11:51:52 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:52:00 gumpa: well if you do something like that could you share the locking bit? 11:55:57 qnavry [~user@c114-76-33-153.eburwd4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:59:40 incandenza [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:15 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:22 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 12:06:21 -!- leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:06 Harag: sure, Im not sure how to do it yet myself tho ;) 12:09:39 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:12:00 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-74.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:12:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@76-243.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:12:26 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:12:36 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 12:13:17 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 12:13:33 is sb!vm accessible (I guiess it's diferent from sb-vm) ? 12:14:35 adu [~ajr@64.134.65.247] has joined #lisp 12:14:49 <_8david> francogrex: slime magically turns it into an alias for sb-vm. if you're not using slime, you need to take care of that yourself. 12:14:50 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:16:11 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:17:39 urandom__ [~user@p548A6ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:15 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-189-200.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:18:22 killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-221-162.p.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 12:18:27 I see. 12:18:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-85.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:19:21 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 12:20:23 -!- billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:21:06 marijnjh [~user@p5DDB13B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:41 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ztulbnsxwcmizazc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:22:01 so, I may have missed previous discussion, but why did asdf 2 get adopted to quickly? 12:22:15 it seems even more obscure than asdf 1, and no better documented 12:25:49 For one thing, 2 > 1. Also, I like that it's got functionality similar to asdf-binary-locations. 12:28:51 i guess that's nice, but i can't help feeling that we could do better 12:29:48 marijnjh: have you read the paper about the development of asdf2? Some interesting stuff about what 'we' and 'better' might mean. 12:29:51 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:30:08 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:31:07 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31:15 splittist: link? 12:31:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-85.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:31:59 marijnjh: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/ilc2010draft.pdf 12:33:11 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:34:39 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:37:39 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 12:39:25 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:44:03 hmm, I seem to rememeber there being a built-in data structure / function to make circular buffers easily 12:44:15 anyone know what I'm thinking of? 12:44:37 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:46:56 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 12:47:46 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:49:07 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 12:49:32 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:52:42 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:20 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:36 mathrick: No. But I did look at Alexandria again and see lots of stuff I should be using (: 13:06:34 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-118.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:08:01 Joreji [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:08:24 splittist: :) 13:08:32 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Quit: rebooting for autorelabel] 13:08:43 splittist: does it have ringbuffers? Because I see an implementation in cl-containers 13:09:12 mathrick: no. (Now to look at cl-containers...) 13:10:20 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-117.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 13:11:12 does SBCL use :TYPE slot option to optimise access? Or is it just for enforcing types? 13:12:21 blargh, why is there PACKAGE-SHADOWING-SYMBOLS, but not PACKAGE-EXPORTED-SYMBOLS? 13:12:29 I would like to know taht too! 13:12:45 also, how do I "clear" a file that I have open for writing? 13:13:22 external? 13:13:22 I basically want to do what supersede does, just with an already open file 13:13:37 s/file/stream 13:16:26 mathrick: yes for struct slots, no for standard-class ones 13:16:39 aha 13:17:30 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 13:18:19 mathrick: because it's easy to write with DO-EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS? 13:18:53 splittist: but it's stupid. 9 times out of 10, it's what I use DO-EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS for 13:19:28 and even in that single other case, I could still use plain DO and PACKAGE-EXPORTED-SYMBOLS, were I so inclined 13:20:04 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:20:25 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-221-162.p.lodz.pl] has quit [Quit: bye] 13:20:28 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:20:58 billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.78] has joined #lisp 13:21:18 ...what? CL-CONTAINERS defines a generic called CONTAINER->LIST, and then provides no methods for it 13:21:25 that makes no sense 13:21:59 presumably you are welcome to extend it for whatever container types you define! 13:22:43 sea4ever [~sea@72.51.69.175] has joined #lisp 13:24:07 -!- qnavry [~user@c114-76-33-153.eburwd4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:27:08 huangho [~vitor@201-15-185-29.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 13:28:12 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-57-204.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:07 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-73-114.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:29:42 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:30:40 cmm: but it supplies no definition for types it provides! 13:30:51 what's the point of "extending" something that doesn't exist? 13:31:25 -!- sea4ever [~sea@72.51.69.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:31:47 sea4ever [~sea@72.51.106.196] has joined #lisp 13:31:51 sacho [~sacho@90.154.201.105] has joined #lisp 13:34:45 what do you mean? according you you above, the name CL-CONTAINERS:CONTAINER->LIST exists and names a generic function with specific argument signature. that's what's supplied 13:35:17 (though the fact that there are no methods for containers already defined by CL-CONTAINERS is strange, yes) 13:35:49 cmm: but what use is it? I can define 100 generics without implementations, and it doesn't give me anything 13:36:06 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:36:22 it'd make sense if it was an extension point with a defined semantics and use 13:36:27 but it's not documented as such 13:36:28 -!- sea4ever [~sea@72.51.106.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:36:39 also, http://paste.lisp.org/display/118836 <-- what on earth? 13:36:54 oh wait, I forgot to say that *buf* is a ring buffer 13:38:15 mathrick: Defining generics gives you a protocol. 13:39:57 sabalabas [~sabalaba@67-194-73-114.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:40:08 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@67-194-73-114.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:12 Xach: no. Defining a protocol gives you a protocol. Defining random generics that have no implementation and no uses gives you noise which obscures the actually use(d/ful) bits 13:42:16 mathrick: Incorrect. 13:42:26 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 13:42:29 You can have a protocol with a single generic function. 13:42:42 You don't need methods. 13:43:24 Xach: pray tell how it is useful then. It has no references whatsoever in CL-CONTAINERS, no documentation that'd hint what it is useful for, and no implementation, meaning the built-in types are outside the protocol already. 13:43:41 who'd use this "protocol" to communicate with whom exactly? 13:44:30 just a generic doesn't make a protocol 13:44:41 you _can_ have protocols consisting of generics 13:44:41 mathrick: The name is pretty good at communicating what it's for. 13:44:44 but that doesn 13:44:49 't mean any random generic is already one 13:44:56 mathrick: consider: the developer intended to implement methods, but did not, for some reason. 13:45:36 mathrick: I'm not arguing that cl-containers is a good or bad library, but I don't think it makes sense to complain that a GF without methods provides nothing. 13:45:39 mathrick: what is your question in that paste? 13:45:41 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:46:08 Xach: I'm complainig about the confusing non-existing bits CL-CONTAINERS exposes, not about generics in general 13:46:54 mathrick: I disagree with "I can define 100 generics without implementations, and it doesn't give me anything". 13:46:57 stassats: how am I supposed to use RING-BUFFER to obtain actual ring buffer behaviour? Notice how it works alright up until insert #20, then goes south 13:47:17 Xach: if that's the _only_ thing I do, then what I said is true 13:47:33 it's pretty printing a list 13:47:34 protocols are obtained by defining protocols. Generics are an implementation detail in this case 13:47:34 mathrick: I disagree. 13:47:42 after #20 it doesn't fit, so it breaks it 13:47:54 stassats: look at the item count 13:48:16 I start with an empty ring buffer, and it behaves as expected for the first 20 uses. Then breaks 13:49:29 Xach: so you're saying that protocols magically spring into existence by defining generics, and the *intent* to make a protocol is unnecessary? 13:51:13 mathrick: Defining one or more generic functions creates a protocol, sure. And defining 100 generic functions does not leave you with nothing. 13:51:43 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:54 stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118836#1 13:52:10 statonjr [~statonjr@rrcs-70-60-193-169.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:49 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:54:27 Xach: 1) that's an arguable claim 2) even if it did, protocols used by no-one are hardly useful. If I use a library, it defining undocument protocols it doesn't event bother to use itself gives me nothing, as I said. Just _defining_ those generics gives me nothing. They have to be used somehow (such as "if defined, this method will be used to do X") to be of any value 13:54:52 otherwise after defining 100 generics I will have 100 "protocols" and not an ounce of utility than before I did it 13:55:02 mathrick: I'd say CONTAINER->LIST is documented fairly well by its name. 13:55:02 *an ounce of utility more 13:55:17 Xach: so who uses it and who is supposed to define it? 13:55:24 mathrick: And if you make a container and want a method to turn it into a list, you can hang it off that GF without writing a new one. 13:55:51 Joreji_ [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:56:29 Xach: y'know, most of the time I'd expect a library called "CL-CONTAINERS" to provide me with some containers, not give me new, exciting ways to write them myself 13:56:45 again, this is not a protocol because it has NO SEMANTICS 13:57:01 *Xach* shrugs 13:57:01 mathrick: why are you so upset? 13:57:17 mathrick: what is a ring-buffer meant to do when it's overfilled? 13:57:19 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:37 If you want to complain about cl-containers not implementing the protocols it defines, that's sensible. Complaining about the nature of generic functions and protocols doesn't make much sense to me. 13:58:11 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:59:10 mathrick: you're a programmer after all 13:59:21 splittist: depends on the application, I'd imagine. a keystroke buffer could cause some piece of hardware to emit a loud beep, a logging rung buffer could just ignore the overflow, etc 13:59:23 makes sense to me that you write code 13:59:45 cmm: yeah. Thanks. 13:59:46 H4ns: I'm not. I'm just replying to Xach who claims things are what they pretty obviously aren't to me. 13:59:46 I think mathrick has several points. I'm not sure that it's useful to talk about protocols without having a notion of contracts (which protocol functions call which other ones, for example) 14:00:02 splittist: drop elements 14:00:10 that's what a ring buffer is 14:00:32 it's a structure containing last N elements put into it 14:00:38 also, my expectation would be the same as mathrick's, that a ring buffer would overwrite the oldest element if a newer one came along and it was full 14:01:04 did you try (dotimes (i 40) (enqueue *buf* i) (format t "~A items: ~A~&" (size *buf*) (contents *buf*))) ? 14:01:46 (note that, in the paste, it does that for a while, then apparently breaks) 14:02:04 xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db87f34.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:06 stassats: yes, it does exactly the same thing 14:02:17 it does? 14:02:23 yes 14:02:28 at least for me it does 14:02:55 are you sure that you tried the code i pasted? 14:04:16 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:04:26 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-fasymvewpncauaar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:05:36 stassats: yes 14:05:49 again, it works alright for a while, then breaks 14:06:15 do you use the same cl-containers i use? 14:08:39 stassats: dunno. I used the ones I got from quicklisp 14:11:26 what are you using? 14:11:38 from git 14:12:00 git! 14:12:19 (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system 'cl-containers)) => "0.12.0" 14:12:44 *Xach* updates his source to git 14:13:25 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-121-183.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:13:55 "0.11.4" 14:14:09 I think I might have an old copy polluting the system too 14:14:27 quicklisp has 0.11.5 from darcs 14:15:19 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 14:16:01 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 14:17:43 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:20:49 zickzackv [~zickzackv@141.23.29.40] has joined #lisp 14:21:00 Xach: will I see the updated sources immediately, or do you have to make a release/update/something of the sort? 14:21:22 ZabaQ [~john.conn@144.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:15 mathrick: It will be in several weeks. If you want to use the git version right away, check it out somewhere and add its directory to your asdf source registry. It will take precedence over quicklisp's version. 14:22:55 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:24:13 k 14:24:33 lharc2 [~user@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 14:24:44 Xach: is there a way to tell quicklisp NOT to honour that and always use its version? 14:25:09 why would anybody want that+ 14:25:23 to get a consistent configuration? 14:25:34 in clhs:maphash, is there any way to remove an entry without using remhash? 14:25:38 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:44 sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:44 well, don't create an inconsistent configuration in the first place, then? 14:25:54 lharc2: what's wrong with remhash? 14:26:24 stassats: nothing wrong, it permits me doing that. But still clhs says using something else is considered undefined. 14:26:31 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 14:26:34 mathrick: There's a simple way to have quicklisp always use its own version: Alter your asdf source registry. 14:26:51 lharc2: i don't understand your question 14:26:55 nyef: care to elaborate? 14:26:58 And, yes, you can do so on a per-lisp-session basis. 14:26:59 mathrick: what nyef said. (asdf:use-only-quicklisp-systems) is meant to do that, but it's lightly tested. 14:27:13 Xach: it returns T here 14:27:30 but it still loaded the old copy I had lying around 14:27:52 stassats: How do you do this part without using remhash: "The consequences are unspecified if any attempt is made to add or remove an entry from the hash-table while a maphash is in progress" 14:27:57 either way, I guess I'll just nuke my mess of systems from the orbit, now that quicklisp is official and all 14:28:11 mathrick: quicklisp uses asdf:find-system to find systems. if your asdf registry doesn't let it find anything, and the old systems aren't cached in some way, it should load only quicklisp stuff. 14:28:51 lharc2: you can't (technically, you can, but you wouldn't do it that way), but i still don't understand why are you asking that? 14:29:09 stassats: asking as a safeguard. 14:29:24 what safeguard? 14:29:26 lharc2: then CLHS answers your question already 14:29:32 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:29:33 no, you can't portably 14:29:51 -!- sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:30:17 lharc2: i suspect that you didn't fully understand that clhs passage, that's why i'm asking what prompted your question 14:30:54 stassats: maybe clhs is meaning you cant do clrhash while in maphash.. anyway I'm happy now, thanks :) 14:31:03 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:31:08 hargettp [~phil@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:29 lharc2: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm 14:31:42 clhs means you can't modify anything, except the current element 14:31:53 why would it not be possible to change the contents of a hashtable while the MAPHASH is in progress? 14:31:57 lharc2: undefined means "don't do it unless you're comfortable with nasal daemons" 14:32:01 it's pretty clear there 14:32:21 now it seems that i'm missing something 14:32:40 -!- hargettp [~phil@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:41 jdz: because MAPHASH has to set it up somehow for traversal, and that setup might be broken if you start poking at the hash while underwau 14:32:44 *underway 14:33:01 jdz: because it can get rehashed or something and you'll get inconsistencies 14:33:11 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:53 mathrick: you can poke at the hash while in maphash, by using remhash. 14:34:20 You can poke at the entry you are currently visiting. 14:34:27 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:34:28 lharc2: yes, because it's explicitly permitted. Which part of "undefined" don't you get? 14:35:14 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-faowtmnsxvhtuaui] has joined #lisp 14:35:25 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:36:09 mathrick: I'm getting it fully now, thanks. 14:39:18 ok, i was relying on people to use "can", "can not", "may" and "may not" properly 14:40:36 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 14:40:41 vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.112.161.13] has joined #lisp 14:41:03 stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118836#2 :( 14:43:05 same here, so, it stores the right amount, but size calculation is off 14:50:26 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz] 14:52:23 stassats: not really, it stores the wrong elements 14:52:36 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-165.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:52:39 it should throw away the oldest, not youngest elements 14:53:07 but it store the right amount, isn't it? 14:53:29 yeah 14:53:33 but that's still not all I 14:53:39 'd expect from a ring buffer :) 14:53:53 *mathrick* writes his own implementation 14:54:04 Open a github issue! 14:54:12 i still think it's size calculation is off, that's why it stores in the wrong place and then prints more than needed 14:54:18 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:54:29 s/it's/its 14:55:50 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-152.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:56:17 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:56:44 fusss [~fusss@58.171.186.147] has joined #lisp 14:57:43 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-152.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:59:06 Deesl [~bsdboy@122.177.43.142] has joined #lisp 14:59:26 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@122.177.43.142] has quit [Changing host] 14:59:27 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 15:04:03 huangho_ [~vitor@201-35-76-253.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:05:05 anyone know if the maintainer(s) of lispbuilder-sdl are here? 15:06:50 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-15-185-29.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:39 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@rrcs-70-60-193-169.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:03 statonjr [~statonjr@rrcs-70-60-193-169.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:44 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-73-114.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:11:14 fusss: I think he goes by Balooga on IRC, but I haven't seen him lately. 15:12:25 Xach: is there any reason that vecto:draw-string doesn't return the bounding box? 15:12:33 stassats: It didn't occur to me. 15:13:20 Xach: thanks 15:13:43 which is the clon that won the naming wars? (Or perhaps lost, if it had to keep the name...) 15:14:47 the prototype object system is now proton, I believe. 15:14:49 hah 15:15:23 using string-bounding-box is awkward since i can't get the current font and font-size 15:15:40 or can i? 15:15:43 sykopomp: thanks 15:16:54 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:54 stassats: that sounds oddly like RaphaëlJS 15:16:56 and SVG 15:17:27 stassats: When I'm doing that sort of thing, I bind the font loader and size to a variable to reuse. 15:17:46 i do that too, but still 15:18:27 stassats: It's a consequence of modeling the interface so much on cl-pdf. With PDF, setting the font means writing out a string to a stream and not much more. 15:21:38 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:22:06 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:22:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:22:40 stassats: I could see a completely different library being built atop cl-vectors that follows some other library. 15:22:43 err, model. 15:25:48 i've only used qt's graphicsview before 15:26:20 and now i'm trying to adjust my head to vecto's coordinate system 15:26:41 stassats: more pdf-model stuff 15:28:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:39 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 15:31:43 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:32:19 adamvh [~adamvh@adsl-99-103-186-186.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:59 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:22 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-14-52.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:57 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 15:39:52 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 15:43:43 Xach: suppose i don't know beforehand how much space my image will take, can i somehow resize it? 15:45:10 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:59 -!- huangho_ is now known as huangho 15:46:15 stassats: "somehow", yes. in an easy, api-exposed way, no. 15:46:34 i have failed alvy ray's vision in that respect :( 15:47:03 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:12 Deesl [~bsdboy@122.177.43.142] has joined #lisp 15:47:17 Bronsa [~Bronsa@host210-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:47:22 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@122.177.43.142] has quit [Client Quit] 15:48:09 alright, i guess i could estimate the size of an image 15:49:07 stassats: If you read vecto's license carefully, you'll note that if you make any cool pictures with it, you have to share them with me. 15:49:09 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:49:17 Ok, that is not actually in its license. 15:49:30 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:48 i'm drawing dull graphs 15:50:06 you would be exempt from that theoretical clause, then 15:50:07 gozoner [~ebg@ip68-6-68-92.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:29 -!- lharc2 [~user@88.131.67.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:36 ... there's a joke about charts of X-rated image downloads somewhere, but I'm not sure I should share. 15:50:39 heheh 15:50:55 Xach: ah, but anyone could CLAIM their pictures are uncool 15:50:58 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 15:51:01 when in fact they could be extremely cool 15:51:03 :) 15:51:32 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:52:23 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:52:45 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 15:52:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 15:52:45 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 15:53:37 i guess i could signal a condition which will bump the image size and restart drawing 15:53:45 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@144.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has left #lisp 15:53:49 clearly an implied term of audit rights 15:53:54 most applicable academic paper title: http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~nray1/CMPUT617/Inference/Besag.pdf 15:55:36 ZabaQ [~john.conn@144.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:56 Krystof: Heh. Nice. 15:56:24 (cited by 2788) 15:59:21 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:59:58 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-117.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:02:11 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-14-52.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 16:04:11 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-117.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 16:08:36 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 16:10:21 hi 16:10:52 anyone know articles/samples/etc about extending scheme implementation to the lisp? 16:11:10 sm` [s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 16:11:37 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:12:09 1. consider scheme a lisp. 2. done 16:12:10 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-14-52.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:13:58 so when (in linux time) did -ldl become required to link programs that call dlopen? 16:14:02 and morning folks 16:14:12 Hello slyrus_. 16:14:32 -!- sm` [s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Client Quit] 16:15:01 sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 16:15:03 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:15:19 stassats: lol. I mean CommonLisp of course 16:15:29 slyrus: A long time, iirc -- but I think some builds put that in the default flag set. 16:17:23 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:19:59 ok thanks Zhivago 16:20:02 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:20:52 stassats: just setting column to 0 and the end of sbcl-gray.lisp/stream-write-string probably breaks other things, but makes my slime printing problem go away 16:21:35 that's not the right way 16:21:55 wow, feels like the good ol' days -- tracking down SLIME bugs and dealing with various SBCL platform build issues instead of getting real work done :) 16:22:34 Rock on, slyrus_! 16:23:26 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:23:40 talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has joined #lisp 16:25:31 Blkt [~user@net-93-151-248-118.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 16:27:28 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:29:28 -!- marijnjh [~user@p5DDB13B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 16:32:40 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.65.247] has quit [Quit: adu] 16:34:13 *stassats* learns that "SLIME look[s] like last century technology that belongs to a computer museum." 16:34:36 Apparently, GUIs are modern. 16:35:06 sykopomp: no, web-browsers are 16:35:14 "All the modern inconveniences"? 16:35:34 stassats: GUIs in web browsers! 16:36:19 that was an excerpt from http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cl-pro/169 16:36:37 I saw that 16:37:44 "but with real opportunities to 16:37:45 create some fine IDE tools that actually would look OK even to a 21 Century computer science student" 16:37:55 Does a students generally demand shiny IDEs? 16:39:04 How do these people get hired as professors? 16:39:08 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-14-52.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 16:39:36 Oh, I totally missed the fact that he was a professor 16:39:36 by being willing to work insanely hard for very little money? 16:39:40 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-118-92.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:39:52 *stassats* goes back to his stale CL and Slime 16:40:03 And in an English-speaking country, too, so no excuse for bizarre writing style 16:40:07 I think they are used to IDE-only languages. That is, languages whose main use is to have a million slots and methods for which the only discovery method is waving the mouse around in a dedicated tool. 16:40:34 CL is IDE-only! i refuse to use it without Slime! 16:40:36 One day IdeaJ, Eclispse etc. will reach the stage of Monkey Island... 16:41:34 well, you can take this view, but also Alex Repenning has done some cool stuff 16:42:30 I'm not sure that Meta-Hyper-Bucky- to insert a close bracket is the way forward, either. Not least because it pushes against the direction input devices are tending. 16:44:34 -!- billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 16:45:20 daniel [~daniel@189-47-118-92.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 16:45:25 the view may be legitimate, but i don't like that it's being presented by attacking contributors to CL projects 16:46:14 mephisto_ [~mephisto@69-165-217-17.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:46:27 -!- daniel is now known as valium97582 16:47:13 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:39 billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.73] has joined #lisp 16:50:46 slyrus_: recently, distros have started to enable --as-needed by default, which may uncover all sorts of linking problems 16:50:56 slyrus_: see ld(1) 16:51:08 the "imager vs filer" question is cute but misguided. who the hell dumps images? 16:51:26 *fe[nl]ix* waves hand 16:51:34 longshot [~longshot@180.184.10.141] has joined #lisp 16:51:36 i do 16:52:05 drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:15 Harag [~Harag@41.56.26.163] has joined #lisp 16:52:22 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:27 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:53:55 -!- drwho is now known as chxane 16:54:01 -!- chxane [~drwho@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:54:05 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 16:54:27 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 16:54:55 *splittist* is not interested in implementing things that are interesting to computer science in general, but perhaps he just thinks small 16:55:50 fusss: well, they're very handy for production, certainly 16:56:13 i use images for development 16:57:41 silenius [~silenus@i59F71C33.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:58:05 i must be the only idiot that actively and deliberately switches implementations every week or so to make sure the app is portable 16:58:26 fusss: no, you're not 16:58:40 chxane [~chxane@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:46 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:58:57 fusss: I'm sure a lot of people who write libraries do that 16:59:14 less important for (non-open-source) applications, I would think 16:59:27 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:59:28 *sykopomp* has 6 CL implementations installed, tests code on most of them. 16:59:36 It's less important when you control the deployment environment, certainly. 17:00:01 nyef: more important when you do, but care to keep your options open. 17:00:03 fusss: i use images and test on several implementations 17:00:43 stassats: what's your workflow with images? 17:00:58 sykopomp: I hear that. Having to spend a month or so fixing things and adding functionality just because your deployment environment changes can suck horribly. 17:01:18 sykopomp: i dump all the libraries i use but don't need to modify 17:01:34 -!- strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:01:53 stassats: libraries alone? as images? I'm confused. 17:02:03 it took me nearly 30 days to switch from cl-sql to postmodern, half-way through I was forced to change Lisps too 17:02:13 sykopomp: what's confusing here? 17:02:30 stassats: it's just the library. How do you use the images? 17:02:45 sbcl --core my-core 17:02:59 sykopomp: plural, libraries, and what adeht said 17:03:03 strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:03 right, but if you want to load multiple libraries... I think I'm missing some context. 17:03:04 Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-35-128.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:03:13 I set things up to dump an image with the few libraries that I have as dependencies, and have a single shell command to rebuild and dump the image if I make a change to the libraries. 17:03:23 stassats: ah, you have images with commonly-used libraries in the same core. 17:03:48 images, core, are these different? 17:04:04 no? 17:04:12 not in the way I used them... 17:04:28 A core is a saved image. 17:04:37 right 17:04:43 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:04:51 A running image has a core which it is started from, but is not the same as the core. 17:05:15 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-117.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 17:05:19 stassats: so what you mean is that when you get a new library that you don't modify, you create a new core with a bunch of libraries built into it, and use that for development? 17:05:52 no, i use a single image per implementation 17:06:03 right! 17:07:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-85.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:09:24 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-53.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:14:00 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:31 serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has joined #lisp 17:16:35 Good evening! 17:16:41 hi serichsen 17:17:32 I have a strange problem with slot-definition-readers in sbcl. 17:17:43 It turns up nil. 17:18:06 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:19:24 serichsen: Before or after the class is finalized? 17:19:34 After. 17:19:51 but are there readers? 17:19:55 Yes. 17:20:08 I'm just preparing a little example session. 17:20:13 are you using the right slot definitions? 17:20:34 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:25 direct vs. effective 17:23:27 -!- chxane [~chxane@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:24:34 to be clear, you should use direct slots for getting readers 17:25:15 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:25:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-228-173.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:25:23 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 17:25:24 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 17:26:13 http://paste.lisp.org/+2JPA 17:26:36 serichsen: what stassats said 17:26:51 haha 17:27:45 OK, so how do I get the direct slots? 17:27:53 and you shouldn't have used compute-slots to get effective slots anyway, but class-slots 17:28:02 class-direct-slots 17:28:36 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 17:30:24 Aha! Thanks! 17:30:40 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 17:30:50 do you know the difference between direct and effective slots? 17:31:08 stassats: Now, yes. ;) 17:31:10 -!- huangho [~vitor@201-35-76-253.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:31:34 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:32:10 -!- Harag [~Harag@41.56.26.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:32:43 when in doubt, (apropos "slots" :closer-mop) 17:32:53 stassats: or rather, I now see that it can make a difference on the user's end. Sorry, it's the first time I actually use this stuff. 17:34:24 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:36 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:43 -!- silenius [~silenus@i59F71C33.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:36:10 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756a53.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:44 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.220.103] has joined #lisp 17:43:40 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 17:43:54 lisppaste is mostly code snippets in lisp, scheme, python and objective-c. the remainder is C++ error messages. 17:44:38 Oh, there's some fun stuff in there as well. 17:44:51 stack traces, disassemblies, et cetera. 17:45:05 chxane [~chxane@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:06 The occasional bit of C preprocessor abuse. 17:45:17 it's really fascinating 17:45:33 one guy wrote some crazy ramblings about SAP "hardware" 17:45:51 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:58 what is this shite? http://paste.lisp.org/display/118838 17:46:30 -!- Bronsa [~Bronsa@host210-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:46:36 reads like something horrible and soul-crushing 17:47:13 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:47:30 Mmm. There's an art to gleaning useful information from documentation like that. 17:47:32 Bronsa [~brace@host210-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:47:42 A skillset I hope never to use again. 17:47:43 That's the first I've seen of that product, but I tried looking at the schema documentation for some of the PeopleSoft human resources modules and I failed a sanity check. 17:48:49 fthagn! 17:48:58 SAP, system area pointer? 17:49:32 Oh, we wish. System-area-pointers are at least usually easy to deal with... modulo the compiler's habit of unboxing and reboxing them. 17:49:44 Ia! Ia! 17:50:11 "Systemanalyse und Programmentwicklung" 17:50:52 And, yes, I've long suspected that something out of Lovecraft's mythos could be found in such enterprise computing systems. 17:51:11 sea4ever [~sea@72.51.67.115] has joined #lisp 17:51:25 They are certainly large enough. 17:51:42 Guess what the "R" stands for. 17:52:01 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host210-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:52:26 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:54:48 this would be why there should always be a boomstick behind the lobby desk. 17:56:26 good nite all; 5AM here :-/ 17:56:28 Bronsa [~brace@host210-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:56:32 nyef: Computing Science and other hi-tech stuff is on its way to cause Mythos creatures to lose SAN 17:56:38 Good _night_, fusss! 17:56:44 fusss: night 17:56:51 serichsen: p_l|backup nite 17:56:54 -!- fusss [~fusss@58.171.186.147] has left #lisp 17:57:08 -!- sea4ever [~sea@72.51.67.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:22 sea4ever [~sea@72.51.67.115] has joined #lisp 17:57:48 *nyef* loses enough SAN from hacking SBCL, and has yet to find any evidence of Mythos creatures there. 17:58:18 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:25 Hello Fare. 17:58:33 hello 17:58:36 -!- rien_ [~rien_@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:38 BLM this month? 17:59:03 H4ns will be in boston next month, according to rumors. 17:59:04 oh shit, uh, - are you speaking? 17:59:15 No. No, I'm not speaking. 17:59:33 I could rehash my asdf talk, but I'm not sure there's much of an audience for it 17:59:36 Joreji_ [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:59:42 Or we could try to have a hackfest. 17:59:59 Hrm... How would that work? 18:00:00 |3b|`` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:05 -!- |3b|` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:55 -!- zickzackv [~zickzackv@141.23.29.40] has quit [Quit: gotta go] 18:00:58 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:01:01 Have participants code stuff 18:01:38 e.g. extend the pure datastructure library, or whatever thing someone brings 18:01:54 port SBCL to ARM? 18:01:58 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:02:50 what stassats said 18:02:53 :) 18:02:53 stassats: More than can be done in an evening. 18:03:09 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:25 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:49 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:30 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-faowtmnsxvhtuaui] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:08:43 -!- Patzy_ is now known as Patzy 18:09:01 -!- billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.73] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:52 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@rrcs-70-60-193-169.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:18:08 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:18:37 pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 18:19:21 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:25 rien_ [~rien_@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:17 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 18:20:34 kruth [~chatzilla@c-76-20-176-41.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:36 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-195-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:05 I've noticed something in forum type language discussions that is different between languages. If I read something written about C or C++, even if I disagree or it's a crappy observation, you can usually get a vibe that the person has put in some time in the language, even years or decades. In any given thread on CL, even if you prefilter out the nonparticipants talking about parentheses, I'd put the % of people with any time on it wh 18:25:05 o are claiming serious comments in single digits 18:27:01 nyef: four thousand throats may be cut in one night by a running man. 18:27:18 serichsen: More if he uses a motorcycle instead. 18:27:29 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:27:45 Especially if the motorcycle tires are made out of knives. 18:27:57 what if he has 1MT nuke in the sidecar? 18:28:08 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 18:28:10 (cookies to those who get the reference) 18:28:15 p_l|backup: then the precision suffers. 18:28:16 p_l|backup: Raven? 18:28:18 serichsen: That reminds me a little of gigamonkey's "one woman can't have a baby in nine months" article. 18:28:21 nyahahaha 18:28:25 nyef: have a cookie :D 18:28:39 UPS doesn't like me, so I can't export one :D 18:29:25 .o(Klingon proverbs. Always good for a nice little conversation.) 18:29:56 Xach: you mean nine women can't have a baby in one month? 18:30:12 no, he doesn't 18:30:29 nyef: do you agree that Raven had a nice way to get his own country? :D 18:31:06 pattern: That's not what the article was about. 18:31:15 so should I try to organize a boston lisp meeting this month, despite lack of interesting speaker? 18:31:50 p_l|backup: ISTR that the way to get your own country was basically to declare it, and have enough money/power to make it stick. 18:31:50 Fare: I think next month would be easier to plan for. 18:31:56 other interesting project to code: a facebook alike using DWIM.hu or whichever infrastructure 18:32:22 p_l|backup: The nuke was just over-the-top. 18:32:30 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:33:18 Fare: and then everyone will sue each other when it becomes famous? 18:33:46 nyef: he got it before the others stabilized, I think 18:33:54 but that was nice exterritoriality :D 18:34:30 Indeed. 18:34:43 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-170-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:34:59 nyef, p_l|backup: which "Raven" are you talking about? 18:35:07 pattern: http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2007/05/10/baby-in-nine-months/ 18:35:24 serichsen: The one with a nuke in the sidecar of his motorcycle, rigged to blow if he ever died. 18:35:25 serichsen: a guy who linked a 1MT nuke in sidecar of his bike with a dead man's switch embedded into him 18:35:33 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:35:42 Xach: by my count it's been 90 days since the ALU board was directed to have a plan for updating the web site in 90 days. Any signs of it? 18:35:55 nyef: :D 18:36:29 gigamonkey: I have not seen any external sign of it, but I'm not privy to internal ALU communications. 18:36:44 serichsen: Snow Crash 18:36:47 (iirc) 18:37:06 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-168-158.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:37:14 I guess they've got a week before it's supposed to be up on the web site. 18:38:01 *Xach* looks forward to it 18:38:02 sykopomp: yep 18:38:11 Snow Crash even had some mentions of Lisp in it, iirc 18:38:41 Mmm. Not so obvious as the ones in A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer, IIRC, but yeah. 18:38:48 That would be an interesting language comparison: number of references to language in S.F. novels. 18:39:32 nyef: I just reread that recently and was tickled by the Lisp references. 18:39:53 People still worry about the ALU? 18:40:02 moore33: Stephenson *does* his research. And then he loves to show it oh so *much* 18:40:21 and well, he managed to influence Google Earth interface :D 18:40:27 (and probably Wikipedia as well) 18:40:29 *splittist* restrains from GoingToWebinar 18:40:30 moore33: only in the way we worry about a nasty train wreck. Except with out the actual empathy for fellow human beings. 18:40:46 gigamonkey: Some things never change :) 18:40:55 p_l|backup: and Sawzall probably. 18:41:14 Or maybe not, need to check my compy of In the Beginning was the Command Line 18:41:41 Actually, I think maybe I'm wrong about that. 18:41:44 though I disagree with his appendix about OS X, though it wasn't so bad back then 18:41:48 so one woman can build a baby in 9 months, but it's neither debugged nor documented. 18:41:57 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@144.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:42:03 now, with Mac App Store... I'm sceptical 18:42:06 it takes 10 times as much time to make it debugged and documented? 18:42:20 carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.145] has joined #lisp 18:42:36 Fare: And there's a massive uncertainty about the start time on that 9 months, and the ability to actually ship a working product at the end. 18:43:00 yeah - will anyone want to buy that baby when it's done? 18:43:13 ... Fare.. 18:43:19 don't ask questions you don't want answers to 18:43:28 *p_l|backup* shudders a little 18:43:29 nyef, Fare: right, there's a lot of well, you know, fucking around before the baby making process actually gets underway. 18:43:54 Of course, as in software, that's often the best part of the project. 18:44:05 I think you mean "the least bad" 18:44:16 mascotte [mascotte__@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-18-189.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:44:20 Blkt` [~user@net-188-153-223-94.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 18:44:35 I think that this metaphor has been exploited enough now. 18:46:12 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-151-248-118.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:46:41 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 18:47:11 anyone here attending the franz webinar with Gabor Melis 18:47:27 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:47:44 dto1: is in now? 18:47:52 Fare: well, in fairness, embryology has has about 500 million years worth of debugging 18:47:52 supposedly today from what i read. 18:47:57 Right now. 18:48:00 40 minutes ago in fact. 18:48:04 documentation has been left to one side a bit :) 18:48:11 i dont have the software but would be interested in hearing it later 18:48:30 rsynnott: also, baby isn't final product for it. It's just part of the process, and each one is disposable from Nature's pov 18:48:56 (Baby isn't the final product, grandbaby is!) 18:49:23 rsynnott, so if we follow Brooke's estimate of documentation as x3, does that mean we'll have it fully documented in a mere billion year? 18:49:23 -!- pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:49:40 dto1: is it being recorded? 18:49:45 i dont know. 18:50:04 i found out about it from arbscht 18:51:03 ZabaQ [~john.conn@144.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:08 Blkt`` [~user@net-188-153-220-217.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 18:51:41 I hope Teclo are going to try to record ZSLUG 18:52:14 Fare: well, the debugging process is far from over 18:52:22 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 18:52:34 -!- Blkt` [~user@net-188-153-223-94.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:52:50 -!- sea4ever [~sea@72.51.67.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:59 I think even the requirements process is in a mess 18:53:19 sea4ever [~sea@72.51.99.91] has joined #lisp 18:54:04 cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:20 Anyone here have a favorite library that implements an ordered map data structure? Something robust, high performance, etc. 18:55:13 rsynnott, what's the Z for? 18:55:22 pnq [ce155edd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.21.94.221] has joined #lisp 18:56:00 reb: dunno about high-performance, but I like my pure map datastructure library 18:56:28 Fare: me? Zurich 18:56:38 reb: what's "ordered map" ? Just increment a counter and stick your object in an id->thing tree ? 18:59:57 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:00:11 Fare: usually something where the map can be efficiently traversed by key ordering, I think 19:00:29 cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:30 so just a tree? 19:01:33 but a tree presenting itself as a map, yep 19:01:44 Fare: I think the're also usually balanced trees, so you can get to an item, given its key, in log N time. 19:01:55 *rsynnott* is unsure about how these are normally actually implemented, but a balanced tree is a good bet 19:02:01 -!- HDurer_home [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:02:01 HDurer_home [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 19:02:06 there was one added to Python 2.7 19:02:35 e.g. A Red Black Tree 19:02:58 rsynnott: really, where? 19:03:18 this: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0372/ 19:03:29 I _think_ it was added in 2.7 19:03:34 yep, it was 19:04:34 "It maintains a doubly-linked list of keys, appending new keys to the list as theyre inserted." 19:04:50 fare-utils has a nice pure balanced tree data-structure 19:05:09 rsynnott: looks like maybe not until 3.2 19:05:11 drewc and I still haven't split it away from fare-utils 19:05:26 Er, 3.1 maybe. 19:05:27 oh, sorry, that's order-preserving, not orderred 19:05:44 or, well, 'ordered' could be taken to mean either, I suppose 19:05:45 I use avl-tree, not red-black 19:05:53 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 19:06:01 rsynnott: so increment a counter, then use ordered ? 19:06:25 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-14-52.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:42 do you also want fast access by nth element? 19:08:39 -!- sea4ever [~sea@72.51.99.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:08:58 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:10:04 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:10:26 then you'll have to maintain the size of the trees in each node and do a simple search 19:10:49 not too hard to do as mixins on top of fare-utils 19:11:21 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:31 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:13:57 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host210-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:15:48 -!- javuchi [~noname@105.Red-95-123-193.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 19:16:41 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.144.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:18:17 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.68.199] has joined #lisp 19:20:26 -!- cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 19:20:52 warzl [~warzl@159.153.4.50] has joined #lisp 19:21:43 -!- hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.182.126] has quit [Quit: hugod_] 19:21:59 -!- serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has quit [Quit: Heading home. Bye!] 19:22:50 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-170-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:24:02 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:10 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:18 javuchi [~noname@105.Red-95-123-193.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:08 -!- hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:28:30 hramrach_ [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 19:31:31 ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@144.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:35 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:31:44 -!- ASau [~user@95-27-211-235.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:17 ASau [~user@93-80-210-26.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 19:34:15 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@144.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:34:24 -!- ZabaQ1 is now known as ZabaQ 19:34:54 -!- kruth [~chatzilla@c-76-20-176-41.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 19:35:13 -!- pnq [ce155edd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.21.94.221] has left #lisp 19:36:28 Blkt``` [~user@net-93-151-249-215.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 19:36:35 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:37:59 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-170-212.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:38:20 -!- Blkt`` [~user@net-188-153-220-217.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:43:05 gigamonkey: there was a S.F. novel where a girl hacker archieved an AI. Some lispy dialog was demonstrated. Unfortunately I read it in the late 70's and don't remember the title. 19:45:16 the girl with a lispy tatto? 19:45:34 Surely it wasn't that title :-) 19:45:46 Fare: left-leaning red-black trees might be slightly more efficient than AVL. In any case, the implementation is much simplier. 19:49:55 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.87.61.212] has joined #lisp 19:50:39 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-53.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51:23 It's simpler to keep the implementation I have that works than to redo it -- but if you want, you can write your own mixin, which should be the matter of one defmethod and two or three trivial helper definitions. 19:53:55 *rsynnott* is surprised order-preserving dictionaries weren't more popular before, really 19:54:25 if nothing else, order sometimes has significance in things like XML that people enjoy putting in dictionaries 19:54:55 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:55:24 rsynnott, I have an implementation at ITA, using hash-tables, if you want 19:55:30 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:55:59 Fare: it was someone else looking for it, I think 19:56:36 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:01:11 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:27 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:16 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-103-214.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 20:05:19 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-103-214.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:20 cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:41 _ism [~frinnn@i59F6108A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:11 Fare and others: Thanks! 20:10:27 alexsura1i [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:35 -!- alexsura1i is now known as alexsuraci` 20:11:12 -!- alexsuraci` is now known as alex-out 20:11:37 -!- alex-out is now known as alexsuraci` 20:13:44 -!- ttb [~frinnn@i59F62767.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:16:25 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:16:58 -!- splittist [~John@213-192.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 20:17:35 Bronsa [~brace@host210-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:18:35 any mac user around? 20:18:48 ya, altho not at my mac :) 20:18:58 I use mac too. 20:19:01 I have a mac 20:19:07 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 20:19:11 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 20:19:11 it's an older PPC powerbook, though 20:19:24 They're good, I've got one too. 20:19:49 pcos and others wanted to make asdf work on rmcl - we fixed a few bugs, but need someone to complete the debugging 20:20:06 Fade: that's actually good as far as debugging MCL goes. 20:20:14 *Xach* had never heard of RMCL until yesterday 20:20:30 *gigamonkey* had never heard of RMCL until two seconds ago 20:20:39 I knew digitool had released its mcl as open-source, I didn't know it was called rmcl 20:20:49 pcos told me about it when he tried to run quicklisp on it. 20:21:37 Dang, we're going to be like Scheme soon, implementations coming out our ears. 20:21:46 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:54 Fare: rmcl is slightly different  hacked by Gary Byers to run under Rosetta. 20:21:59 instead of out of... ? 20:22:20 sellout: shouldn't be different as far as asdf is concerned 20:22:29 Fare: is it this one? http://code.google.com/p/mcl/ 20:22:51 Fare: Probably not, but it is a separate product. 20:23:11 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 20:23:37 RMCL is just a stop-gap for MCL people to be able to use non-ancient machines while they work on porting to a non-dead implementation. 20:23:50 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-103-214.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 20:24:11 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:25 *Xach* wonders about using cloak to run clojure on rmcl 20:25:48 cloak is a jvm on CL? 20:25:52 Yes. 20:26:17 that sounds like it could be impressively slow :) 20:26:39 Perhaps it has JITC ? 20:27:17 even then, you're still running in a PPC emulator 20:27:27 albeit a fancy one which itself uses a form of JIT 20:28:37 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:29:12 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has left #lisp 20:30:16 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:31:07 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has joined #lisp 20:34:59 has anyone run CLOAK on top of ABCL ? 20:35:59 CallToPower [~CallToPow@xdsl-92-252-32-53.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:37:26 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.10.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:38:28 stassats: have you published cl-qrcode yet? 20:39:18 no, and i'm not planning finishing it any-time soon 20:40:04 How much did the standard cost? 20:41:13 CHF208! i'm not made of swiss money! 20:41:47 -!- Blkt``` is now known as Blkt 20:43:43 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 20:44:04 lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-78-145-82.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:04 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@pool-173-78-145-82.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:44:04 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:44:13 longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:02 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 20:45:19 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@72-022.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:45:48 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.10.141] has joined #lisp 20:48:38 -!- longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:39 -!- longshot_ is now known as longshot 20:50:34 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:52 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:55:03 aliudalius [~user@68.168.182.86] has joined #lisp 20:55:09 -!- aliudalius [~user@68.168.182.86] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:55:20 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:01 Fare: no, but lichtblau did have a screenshot of ABCL on cloak 20:56:07 I think cloak is sbcl-only 20:56:41 did you hear the latest news? apparently Common Lisp has gone from dead to stale 20:57:06 "screenshot". http://paste.lisp.org/display/2096 20:57:27 adeht: That's just one step in the path to becoming even more delicious as croutons. 20:57:45 adeht: well, I saw that sbcl committers utterly broke sbcl and a number of people noticed :-) 20:58:07 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:03 Krystof: ah, the last two days 20:59:09 Xach: that's a good comeback... 20:59:19 I still use the stale 1.0.45.4 20:59:29 1.0.45.4 rocks 20:59:36 yeah, it even compiles clx! 20:59:43 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:59:44 gnooth: that is not your name!! 20:59:52 :) 20:59:55 honestly, how can I keep track of who is who? 20:59:59 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:00:13 one nick change in ~7 years 21:00:24 whaaat! gnooth! 21:00:45 Xach! 21:00:49 see, my alter ego did not know either 21:01:15 Xach knew at one point, but I think he forgot 21:01:48 *Xach* tries to make up a mnemonic along the lines of "piso, red in gnooth and claw" 21:02:48 btw, it's almost time to try (again) to get xcl working with quicklisp 21:03:42 sedeki [~tobias@c80-216-168-90.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:04:26 how can i quit an evaluation? 21:04:34 like, exit with an error 21:06:01 Good morning everyone! 21:06:17 sedeki: (error "this is an error") 21:07:12 nope 21:07:24 reference to unknown identifier 21:08:16 sedeki: Are you using Lisp, or some other language? 21:08:21 well, that's an error, and it stopped evaluation. :D 21:09:04 drewc: herep 21:09:11 i'm using scheme 21:09:24 sedeki: there's a channel for scheme called #scheme 21:09:26 sedeki: Then you are in the wrong IRC channel. 21:09:27 -!- sedeki [~tobias@c80-216-168-90.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 21:10:16 adeht: What made you say that CL has gone from dead to stale? 21:10:40 beach: Alexander Repenning venting on the "pro" mailing list. 21:10:41 -!- vilsonvieira [~vilson@187.112.161.13] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:10:54 why wasn't I invited to the funeral? 21:10:58 beach: the recent Repenning post on cl-pro mailing list and its discussion by the social elites of the Interweb 21:11:02 Xach: Ah, haven't checked my mail yet. /me does so. 21:12:13 `"pro"' mailing list 21:13:20 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-103-214.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:14:56 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.220.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:15:32 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@144.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:16:35 -!- dRbiG [p@irc.kaer.tk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:39 d2biG [p@irc.kaer.tk] has joined #lisp 21:16:45 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:17:14 -!- strlen [~alex@behemoth.strlen.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:19:04 hamed [~gfggggggg@80.191.224.18] has joined #lisp 21:19:12 -!- hamed [~gfggggggg@80.191.224.18] has left #lisp 21:19:56 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-151-249-215.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:21:48 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@69-165-217-17.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:04 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:22:52 Oh, I see. One of *those* postings. 21:23:22 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:25:18 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:25:29 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:19 Phantom__Hoover [~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486] has joined #lisp 21:26:23 http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/pro/2011-January/000256.html 21:26:32 I'm assuming that's wrong in several ways. 21:27:39 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:12 Phantom__Hoover, lack of line-wrapping is one of those ways. 21:28:26 Fare, :D 21:28:43 Indeed. 21:28:56 Fare yeah, I actually saw that post in an ASM channel a few minutes ago and I ended up pasting it in emacs so I could actually read it 21:29:14 Abstract State Machines? 21:29:27 ASseMbler? 21:29:33 IA-32/AMD64 assembly 21:30:12 So named for the DOS file extension typically used for assembler source files. 21:30:33 Terminological abjad 21:30:39 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:46 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:31:08 I think he does have a point about many things though, for example there's no mainstream LLVM backend for any of the big CL compilers? 21:31:28 And emacs (although I use it on a daily basis) is archaic in many regards 21:31:42 *Fare* remembers trying to do metaprogramming with MASM or TASM, but their macroprocessors were too broken. 21:31:53 Screwdrivers are also archaic in many regards. 21:31:56 Fare maybe NASM would work better 21:32:13 Lisp is a good enough macroassembler. 21:32:24 nyef, yes, but Emacs is still single-threaded. 21:32:37 that post is a hot-topic today 21:32:37 And it still doesn't work properly on Windows even :/ 21:32:38 Phantom__Hoover: And when was the last time you saw a multithreaded screwdriver? 21:32:51 kuffaar: The big CL compilers are written themselves in CL, and it would be difficult to interface with the C++ LLVM backend 21:32:56 *kuffaar* prepares for a flood of anti Windows remarks 21:32:57 and emacs is also without continuations, so you can't implement your own threading on top 21:33:07 nyef, last time I used a multithreaded screw, dummy! 21:33:21 Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:46 dlowe: ghc did it, although it's not written in C nor C++ 21:33:53 Phantom__Hoover: Not quite right, the answer clearly is that screwdrivers aren't threaded at all, but they are multithread-safe! 21:34:06 Phantom__Hoover: there are some experimental patches for multithreading 21:34:15 kuffaar: I thought ghc used c-- instead of llvm? 21:34:29 dlowe: nah, that part's not difficult. 21:34:35 dlowe: rewriting the whole compiler is the difficult part. 21:34:41 rien_ hmm SPJ developed C-- but I wasn't even aware it was used in ghc 21:34:54 interfacing with LLVM is trivial. :) 21:34:55 But GHC has had a working LLVM backend since ghc6 I think 21:35:00 foom: Just write a IL compiler to the LLVM IL :D 21:35:00 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 21:35:27 kuffaar: afaik ghc compiles to c--, don't hold me against that though 21:35:29 dlowe: yes, that's the difficult part. Doing it with the LLVM C bindings is easier than writing it out as text, but either way it's hard. 21:35:45 rien_: GHC has multiple backends, I suppose that's one of them 21:35:55 kuffaar: I guess, yes. 21:35:58 what type does 4.0l0 name (the l0)? how can i explicitly convert values to this type (by calling a function) 21:36:16 ecraven: long-float.. (float x 0.0l0) 21:36:21 ecraven: or using coerce 21:36:53 When I spoke with SPJ for Coders at Work, GHC was using C-- 21:37:19 my problem is that (+ -214193 -0.3205269) is only exact to two decimals (on CLISP) -> -214193.33 21:37:21 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host210-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:37:41 Bronsa [~brace@host210-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:37:56 that's binary floating point for you 21:37:56 ecraven: Have you considered coercing the second argument to a RATIONAL instead? 21:38:03 ecraven: I suspect that you're misinterpreting output 21:38:14 if you write it as (+ -214193 -3205269/10000000) instead, you'll find it's infinitely exact 21:38:28 but why doesn't it work as written? 21:38:32 it definitely prints what i wrote 21:38:46 -!- Phantom__Hoover [~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486] has left #lisp 21:38:50 alternatively, if you read "What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating Point", you would learn what every computer scientist should know about floating point 21:38:58 and then you would be able to answer your own question 21:39:33 well, i tried exactly the same code in mit-scheme, and it returns the correct answer. so this seems to be a lisp floating point problem, not a general floating point problem 21:39:50 correct answer? 21:40:06 Or a *read-default-floating-point* problem? 21:40:13 -!- Bronsa [~brace@host210-177-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 21:40:20 ecraven: try (+ -214193 -0.3205269d0) 21:41:43 does c-- still exist? I thought it had been dropped long ago 21:42:36 gigamonkey: i tried that, i'm trying to figure out how to get the last term (which is actually calculated, not a literal) get converted automatically 21:43:14 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:16 ecraven: where did it come from? 21:43:39 nyef's suggestion of setting *read-default-float-format* might help 21:44:04 Ah, right. I didn't think I had the variable name quite right. 21:44:09 I.e. if you have float literals somewhere in your calculations without d0, they will, by default, be single floats. 21:44:24 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:44:48 Or you could just make sure all your float literals have d0 on them. 21:45:01 And if you ever do (float x) do (float x 0d0) 21:46:38 can i just (setq *read-default-float-format* 'double-float) at the top of my program? will that work for literals? 21:46:47 Xach: your tweet is greatly appropriate to today's cl-pro topic. :) 21:46:51 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 21:49:05 ecraven: You might need an eval-when, but it should. 21:50:04 ZabaQ [~john.conn@144.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:24 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 21:53:04 -!- cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 21:54:59 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 21:55:17 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@144.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:56:29 ecraven: though just to be clear, that won't affect any code that was read before your code is loaded. 21:56:32 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:58:09 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:58:19 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:47 gigamonkey: thanks, i reloaded my code. 22:00:35 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:00:54 So does that fix it? 22:01:01 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.68.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:01:20 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.68.199] has joined #lisp 22:01:31 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:30 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 22:06:05 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756a53.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:06:23 mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-14-52.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 22:06:31 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@xdsl-92-252-32-53.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: > /dev/null 2>&1] 22:09:40 no ;) i've stopped investigating and sent an email to the author of the code 22:09:55 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:47 -!- xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db87f34.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: xraycat] 22:12:10 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Quit: sellout] 22:13:43 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 22:14:10 -!- wanderingelf [4817e03d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.61] has left #lisp 22:18:50 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:19:01 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.87.61.212] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 22:19:19 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6ACB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:43 -!- warzl [~warzl@159.153.4.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:13 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-89-240.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:27:46 -!- cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:29:53 silenius [~silenus@p549466BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:32 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:34:35 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 22:35:53 mattrepl [~mattrepl@99.13.242.166] has joined #lisp 22:36:55 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-121-183.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:39:46 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:44 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: my dns has forked] 22:44:44 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:46:58 pathnames strike again 22:47:20 -!- kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:26 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:47:29 (translate-logical-pathname #P"SYS:TAGS") => #P"path/tags", but the file is named TAGS 22:48:04 you're misusing logical pathnames 22:48:15 yeah, logical pathnames are terrible beasts. 22:48:19 i don't 22:48:32 that's not my code! i wouldn't touch logical pathnames with a stick 22:48:48 You'd need to add a translation to the SYS logical pathname host to defeat the "customary case" conversion. 22:49:30 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:50:13 logical pathnames are awesome. 22:50:22 I've been bitten by that before. It sucks having to add a translation for that case. 22:50:22 nyef: that doesn't mean anything to mean 22:50:55 stassats: Add (("tags" "TAGS")) to your translations. 22:51:15 (Well, not exactly that, but something close to it.) 22:52:35 -!- mascotte [mascotte__@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-18-189.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:53:14 would (merge-pathnames "TAGS" (translate-logical-pathname #P"SYS:")) work? 22:53:54 Probably. 22:54:46 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: gz] 22:54:50 Still, have a look at (l-p-t "SYS"), or whatever the accessor is. 22:55:10 anyone catch the Gábor Melis webinar? 22:55:25 (logical-pathname-translations "SYS") => ((#P"SYS:**;*.*.*" #P".../ecl/build/**/*.*")) 22:56:19 Right... Now add an entry to the list that replaces *.*.* with TAGS.*.* and *.* on the right with TAGS.* 22:56:26 whatever, merge-pathnames currently works, so i'll use it instead 22:56:31 Should work, I expect. 22:57:13 i only need to get a file-name, i don't really want to mess with translations 22:58:10 mahata_ [~mahata@e0109-49-132-18-94.uqwimax.jp] has joined #lisp 22:59:03 cheez [~Adium@69-165-154-135.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:08 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 22:59:38 -!- mahata [~mahata@e0109-49-132-14-52.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:33 i missed the whole discussion on some mailing list about case conversion, so i guess they are reasons for it, but they don't seem sane to me (like i can expect anything sane from pathnames...) 23:02:07 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-118.vologda.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:03:13 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:47 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07:49 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:10 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:13 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:11:11 -!- chxane [~chxane@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:12:36 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:13:03 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 23:14:36 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-191-214.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:20 I like the Google Ad on xach's article: "7 Tips to Get Pregnant". 23:19:18 were any of the efforts to make new pathnames successful? 23:19:34 stassats: there's iolib pathnames 23:20:05 i was implying them too, does anybody use them? 23:20:39 I used them when I wanted to use iolib's directory iterator 23:20:40 stassats: the author, attila, lichtblau 23:20:51 pjb: which article? 23:21:49 I thought you were implying that was Xach's article, not the ad... 23:22:08 but personally I don't have problems with CL pathnames.. maybe because my expectations are different from others who are unsatisfied 23:22:11 Xach: Oops, sorry, it was gigamonkey's http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2007/05/10/baby-in-nine-months/ 23:22:17 ah 23:22:55 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-191-214.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 23:23:29 Now, of course, I would add that having the baby, is only the start of the project. Then you need to nurture and educate it for 20 years before being able to release a finished product. 23:23:44 20 years! 23:23:50 I would have thought ads for tips on getting ... er ... finding a suitable partner ... would be more appropriate than tips for conceiving a baby for most lispers... 23:24:11 Which is about the time, for real software packages, like OSes or SAP, or anything. 23:24:34 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see] 23:24:42 slyrus_: I found that at each dinner at ILC the topic of conversation inevitably drifted to kids, with almost everyone having more than one. 23:24:43 slyrus_: Agreed. Complains at Google. 23:25:16 Hey, an established procedure for bootstrapping a general intelligence from nothing to fully operational over the course of about 21 years? That's not bad. 23:25:17 *Xach* must email antonio about linj again 23:25:18 then my comment stands :) 23:25:28 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 23:26:09 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:27:22 nyef: indeed.. with today's hospitals and doctors, vaccines and antibiotics, we can say that it's pretty much an AI 23:28:00 adeht: I too am perfectly satisfied with pathnames. But I pretend logical pathnames don't exist. 23:28:27 I pretend physical pathnames don't exist, and only use logical pathnames. I'd like more conformance. 23:28:35 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 23:29:13 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:29:45 Howdy lispers! can anyone give me some insight into what an "unhandled memory fault" is? 23:29:58 A bug in the implementation. 23:30:02 a segfault 23:30:18 or a bug in foreign code called thru FFI. 23:30:19 pjb: Or in the program. 23:30:38 after doing something silly on SBCL i get this: 23:30:38 23:30:38 "Unable to display error condition: Unhandled memory fault at #x15D." 23:30:57 What sort of "silly", and which version of SBCL? 23:30:57 well, don't do silly things and you'll be ok 23:31:04 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 23:31:12 EarlGray [~dmytrish@79.124.224.119] has joined #lisp 23:31:37 stassats: We've had a bug recently that could cause that sort of damage for valid code, you know. 23:31:43 stassats: (: Yes, just wondering what it meant. Seemed kinda low number 23:32:45 FWIW this did it: (error 'simple-error :format-control "~S some simple error" :format-arguments '88) 23:33:09 indeed 23:33:14 hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.182.126] has joined #lisp 23:33:16 Oh dear. Which SBCL version? 23:33:24 1.0.45.7 23:34:23 mon_key: should be '(88) 23:34:37 though, it shouldn't memory fault, of course 23:34:39 stassats: yes, of course 23:34:53 stassats: yes it should be '(88) 23:35:20 stassats: obv i've noclue if the fault is trivial 23:35:38 I'm with w/ SBCL 1.0.45.3 23:35:54 i'm channeling all my bug-hunting powers onto it 23:37:03 So, I know where the fault address comes from. 23:37:16 yeah, it's taking 88 as a list pointer. 23:37:23 Exactly. 23:37:47 So, something is running without typechecking its arguments. 23:38:00 and it makes sense: we need to signal errors very early on 23:38:11 Oh, and you're on a 32-bit system. 23:38:13 I think it's make-instance that should have the safety checks. 23:38:51 it's 2b9, as expected, on a 64 bit build. 23:39:24 ... And should probably upgrade to at least 1.0.45.5, due to a lifetime analysis bug in the compiler. 23:39:30 But that shouldn't affect this. 23:39:57 face "Violet") 23:40:40 Hello johanbev. 23:40:43 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:41:25 So, where it says, "The integrity of this image is possibly compromised." how seriously should I consider that warning? 23:41:44 In this case? Not very. 23:42:01 That said, when I tried it on my system it went straight to LDB. 23:42:44 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-zxgxayzqnuilbere] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:43:30 Flinx [~Flinx@c-68-33-142-62.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:54 hello! :D 23:44:14 nyef: Okay. 23:44:26 hello Flinx 23:44:39 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:03 looks like it might be a bug in sb-debug or swank. 23:45:06 a reduced test-case: (sb-kernel::simple-condition-printer (make-condition 'simple-error :format-control "" :format-arguments 09998) *standard-output*) 23:46:12 Flinx: You must be an expert Lisp programmer by now, considering that you started reading PCL in september of 2008, and haven'b been back here since. 23:46:15 I'm slowly working my way through Pratical Common Lisp and was wondering about your opinions about Lisp development environments for Windows. Mostly trying to see if I should still try to get LispBox or go for something like SBCL instead. 23:46:31 0.o 23:46:32 LOL 23:46:37 if i redefine simple-condition-printer, it signals a type-error 23:47:03 -!- EarlGray [~dmytrish@79.124.224.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:47:05 beach, hardly, I've only recently picked it up again with serious intent to finish 23:47:05 Flinx: LispBox uses SBCL too 23:47:36 *nods* 23:48:08 qzg [~qzg@64.19.13.162.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:19 Trying to find reviews of them is like pulling teeth XD. Really makes me want to re-install linux XD 23:48:39 hargettp [~hargettp@96.237.131.147] has joined #lisp 23:50:00 -!- mahata_ [~mahata@e0109-49-132-18-94.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:21 -!- qzg [~qzg@64.19.13.162.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:31 qzg [~qzg@64.19.13.162.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:47 Flinx: Lispbox is deadish. 23:50:59 I saw :/ 23:51:06 thats why I'm researching alternatives 23:51:17 If you have it in you, just install Emacs, SBCL, and Quicklisp and then use Quicklisp's SLIME helper. 23:51:38 Oh, Windows. Well, maybe Clozure CL 23:51:46 if i installed EMACS i'd feel like I was cheating on Nano ;0 23:51:51 ;) 23:52:24 Flinx: But nano's an editor, not an IDE, right? 23:52:29 true 23:52:30 So make a Linux VM. What happens in Linux, stays in Linux. 23:52:41 Flinx: And at least you're staying GNU ;) 23:53:03 sellout, true ;) 23:53:11 I can actually install EMACS on my windows >.> 23:53:26 but that would be only nanocheating 23:53:34 although I'm a wee bit afraid of it cause I've seen the EMACS/VI flame wars 23:53:53 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:11 be a man - pick a side 23:54:22 I pick nano!! 23:54:29 *nods* nano is my friend XD 23:55:28 to the arms! 23:55:58 *gigamonkey* has been monogomous with Emacs for almost as long as he's been monogomous with his wife 23:56:09 Nice 23:56:28 adeht: I have a question about something you said a few days back. 23:56:32 gigamonkey: so, when did you divorce your second wife? 23:56:41 I've been afraid of Emacs because it seems scary... like.. might eat n00bz scary 23:57:13 Flinx: As Alan Cooper points out, people are beginners for a very short time. 23:57:28 adeht: when you wrote "francogrex: also, never declare as "fixnum"" 23:57:29 beach, not if they get eaten by Emacs *nod* 23:57:43 I'm curious to know why? 23:57:50 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:58:02 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:08 because the size of fixnums is implementation dependant, and some compilers don't like when you lie to them 23:58:41 stassats: eh? 23:59:33 mon_key: a better question is: why _would_ you declare something as a fixnum 23:59:34 gigamonkey: i mean when did you stop being polygamous? 23:59:48 stassats: Thankx. So is it ok if there is a type constraint like fixnum-exclusive which is just under most-[positive|negative]-fixnum ? 23:59:51 hokay... I'm gonna get Emacs etc...