00:03:08 if I have a function always being called in one thread and I setf a dynamic variable, should I not see that new value the next time said function is called (in the same thread?) 00:03:13 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:06:23 cheez: You should, unless you bind that variable. It is tradition to consider the top-level value of a special variable to be shared between threads, but other bindings of it to be thread-specific. 00:12:49 beach nevermind, bug hehe sorry :) 00:14:25 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-178-93.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 00:14:47 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.87.61] has joined #lisp 00:16:51 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-178-93.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 00:17:17 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.192.210] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 00:19:46 Nick_Marshall [~yura@109.87.91.223] has joined #lisp 00:22:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:23:49 -!- Nick_Marshall [~yura@109.87.91.223] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:50 timack [~tim@hlfx56-2b-80.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 00:34:01 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:34:08 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 00:34:45 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:13 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:38:04 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 00:40:11 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:40:36 taicho [~taicho@adsl-99-34-23-244.dsl.sndg02.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:31 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 00:41:35 -!- krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:58 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.87.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:35 -!- manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:49:05 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:45 -!- leo2007 [~leo@222.79.250.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:55:26 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00:24 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.87.61] has joined #lisp 01:02:08 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:02:21 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:25 -!- taicho [~taicho@adsl-99-34-23-244.dsl.sndg02.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:04:32 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:05:14 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 01:05:54 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:06:04 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci] 01:07:27 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:58 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BA28.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:14:19 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:14:48 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:20:29 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:21:02 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.232.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:22:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:26:06 -!- s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:28:11 -!- cheez [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:34:34 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:30 -!- beach [~user@116.118.72.132] has left #lisp 01:36:12 -!- jestocost [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:36:27 jestocost [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 01:37:41 jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:35 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 01:44:40 wtf, why does chaning into package regex, and running the tests with (run-test) succeeds in sbcl but no in cmucl ? 01:45:24 it's tells me run-sebastien-test's is not a know function, i'm already in the regex-test package how can that be external ? 01:45:31 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:47:47 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-140-59.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:50:35 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:53:06 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:55:52 what's more idiomatic in lisp? to surround a defun in a let? or a let in a defun? 01:56:38 a defun is a let, in some other sense or so.... 01:56:56 hmm 01:57:15 well, i just want to set some local variables... let is the right construct for that, no? 01:57:25 yes 01:57:30 or let* 01:57:41 so where where would i put it? around the defun or within? 01:58:17 if you put in within it will only be local to your defun 01:58:35 well, i'm only going to use the local variables for this defun anyway 01:58:46 if you put it outside you could use it to capture some global value to reach to your defun 01:59:20 *pattern* nods 01:59:33 so it depends.... 01:59:45 thanks 02:01:32 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:02:03 pattern: Read code from other people to see how people usually write. 02:02:10 There is a lot available 02:02:35 does anyone know a good reference for working with number types in lisp? I keep getting bit by trying to do operations on different types of number (ie fixnum, integer, bit, etc) 02:03:11 ikki [~ikki@189.139.232.70] has joined #lisp 02:04:16 fisxoj: bit how? 02:05:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.232.70] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:05:29 Xach, I'm operating on 1, 0.5 and 6, the first one gets treated as a bit, the second as a single-float and the third as an integer... do I just need to type them all in with a decimal place so they'll all be treated as floats? 02:05:52 fisxoj: what is the problem? 02:06:14 Xach, mostly that I don't want to have to type .0 after numbers :) 02:06:25 fisxoj: what is the actual problem? 02:06:41 -!- gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 02:06:58 -!- sluggo [~chris@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:15 I'm playing with reader macros, and making something that fills in vectors with evenly-spaced numbers, like matlab does with its [xi:dx:xf] notation 02:07:31 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:20 so, when I make an array, I was trying to set the element-type to the or of the types of the values, to make it the most general type, but, when the xi value was 1, that made it make an array of bits 02:08:33 and then yell at me when I tried to store 1.5 in it 02:08:53 I suppose I should just make the array single-sloat 02:09:02 s/sloat/float/ 02:10:15 ah, but then it yells at me if I try to store a 1 in it... 02:10:51 I don't know how matlab works, sorry. 02:11:20 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:24 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 02:11:34 If you want to store any kind of number, make it of type t. If you want to store only one kind, coerce when you put unknown things in. 02:12:00 or use the FLOAT function 02:18:27 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.87.61] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 02:21:31 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:26:02 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:27:20 roflcopter [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:21 oops.. i just blew the stack and wound up in the low-level debugger 02:27:42 to quit the current program and get back to a sane environment, do i just type "quit"? 02:28:00 -!- thmzlt [~thomaz@24-217-48-63.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:28:51 hmm.. guess not 02:28:55 that just quit sbcl completely 02:30:05 ikki [~ikki@189.247.153.17] has joined #lisp 02:31:54 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:32:45 what's an idiomatic way of simply adding a list of numbers? 02:32:49 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-90-33.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:32:52 i just have this: 02:32:56 (defun add-list (list) (cond ((endp list) 0) (T (+ (first list) (add-list (rest list)))))) 02:33:10 but i'm sure there's got to be many better ways.. 02:35:11 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:40:06 pattern: (apply #'+ list) or (reduce #'+ list) 02:40:15 thank you 02:44:15 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@host81-152-40-56.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:44:32 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:47:27 I like that + can take multiple args 02:47:33 Thanks lisp! 02:47:43 s/multiple/>2 02:47:53 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:54:36 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx56-2b-80.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:57:46 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 03:04:51 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 03:04:56 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:05:18 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:18 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:05:18 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 03:09:34 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-52-167.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 03:10:44 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:11:13 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tlskizsrqbifqygr] has joined #lisp 03:11:37 sailorreality [~IceChat7@74.198.148.45] has joined #lisp 03:12:18 katesmith 03:13:44 -!- qbomb [~Adium@12.153.198.113] has left #lisp 03:14:37 pjb: in the 99 lisp problems, the formula given in problem 37 is slightly incorrect... i see in your solution that you noticed that too 03:15:09 pjb: you can see the correct formula here: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Euler%27s_totient_function#Computing_Euler.27s_function 03:16:09 pjb: it should be: phi(m) = ( (p1 - 1) * p1 ** (m1 - 1) ) * ( (p2 - 1) * p2 ** (m2 - 1) ) * ( (p3 - 1) * p3 ** (m3 - 1) ) * ... 03:16:53 the only difference being that the correct solution has * instead of + 03:17:10 the correct formula, i mean 03:24:56 -!- emma is now known as em 03:25:49 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26:21 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:36:10 jesusabdullah: It's not >2, it's completely arbitrary. Try (+) and (*) 03:37:32 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 03:38:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.153.17] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:47:00 what's an easy way to use regex-searches or matches in lisp ? 03:47:34 say i just displayed the set of packages installed now i want to get a sublist matching only some packages ? 03:49:26 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:50:56 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:56 homie: cl-ppcre is the best regex package out there 04:09:44 proq [~user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 04:10:10 naryl: Interesting! I hadn't ran across those use cases yet, so the possibility of calling (+) or (+ 1) didn't even occur to me 04:17:39 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:18:33 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:43 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.61.227] has joined #lisp 04:22:30 psilord [~psilord@adsl-71-150-253-113.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:31 -!- psilord [~psilord@adsl-71-150-253-113.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:23:29 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:22 how can i force a jump from the middle of a loop to the next iteration? 04:25:36 -!- ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@203.213.202.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:29:21 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 04:30:13 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-33-41-219.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:31:09 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:35:25 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:37:44 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 04:37:57 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:40:55 wanderingelf [4817e03d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.61] has joined #lisp 04:43:53 silentbicycle [~scott@99-55-246-143.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:24 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F398.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:47:00 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:47:29 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:48:41 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:51:49 az [~az@p5796C35E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:56 pattern: You'll have to rewrite it with UNLESS 04:52:35 caelan [~caelan@gnu/webmaster/caelan] has joined #lisp 04:53:13 pattern: thanks. 04:54:10 naryl: actually, i just found this solution... http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4585071/for-continue-in-scheme-lisp 04:54:26 there are a number of solutions there, actually 04:54:38 i tried the one by Rainer Joswig and it seems to work well 04:54:57 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tlskizsrqbifqygr] has left #lisp 04:55:41 (only i had to use "cont" instead of "continue" as sbcl complained about: "Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when binding CONTINUE as a local function.") 04:55:45 pattern: You were asking about LOOP :P 04:56:05 isn't for a form of loop? 04:57:21 pattern: Or just learn to use Iterate early until you're spoiled with LOOP 04:57:29 http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Control-Flow.html#Control-Flow 04:57:54 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wckhvenceimqadyl] has joined #lisp 04:58:01 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 04:58:57 that looks useful.. 04:59:03 thanks! 04:59:15 Yes, marking the loop body and exiting it is a solution. 04:59:19 (loop for item in list sum item) 04:59:27 (reduce (function +) list) 05:02:15 -!- wanderingelf [4817e03d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.61] has left #lisp 05:04:29 getpwnam [~ian@adsl-69-153-195-131.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:14 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 05:16:15 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:17:00 Jesdisciple [~Jesdiscip@adsl-75-53-39-195.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:26 I'm trying to install the Sheeple library, (obviously) for prototype-based programming, and it depends on ASDF. 05:19:51 I've seen ASDF bashed as outdated, so is there an alternative to Sheeple which doesn't depend on it? 05:20:20 ASDF is standard. 05:20:24 I don't know where you read that complaint. 05:20:38 standard as in, in the ANSI spec? 05:21:02 or just convention? 05:21:11 my understanding was that it is convention 05:22:18 anyhow, I managed to (asdf-install:install :sheeple) 05:22:22 Jesdisciple: de-facto standard, by convention 05:22:39 Jesdisciple: I suggest you dump asdf-install, though 05:22:54 alternative? 05:22:55 -!- getpwnam [~ian@adsl-69-153-195-131.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has left #lisp 05:23:02 http://quicklisp.org is the best way to install cl libraries 05:23:20 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 05:23:42 daniel [~daniel@p50829AA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:05 ah, sykopomp wrote sheeple even, I think. 05:24:30 (he's on here (-:) 05:25:59 -!- Guest67489 is now known as hemanth 05:26:25 -!- daniel__ [~daniel@p5B3276E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:27:06 (For the record, I'm returning to learning CL after a long break - but I never got very far before anyway.) 05:28:45 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 05:30:02 Ralith: complaints about asdf: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/9451a52099ae25b6/4fc15114d6865348#4fc15114d6865348 05:30:23 pattern: does that say "ASDF is obselete?" 05:30:30 nostoi [~nostoi@178.Red-79-146-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:15 i don't remember, off hand... it's a long thread.. lots of things were said 05:31:42 i think at least some of the people did say asdf was pretty dated 05:32:17 which isn't the same as obsolte, per se 05:32:21 but it's showing its age.. 05:32:27 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:33:49 spiaggia` [~user@113.161.72.9] has joined #lisp 05:34:15 Oh, and since asdf-install was successful... anything I should do to undo it? 05:34:47 Jesdisciple: Just keep in mind that there is quicklisp 05:34:58 You can have both 05:35:11 alright - just want to avoid any conflicts 05:35:20 And they will know about libraries installed with each other 05:36:02 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:36:25 -!- spiaggia [~user@113.161.72.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:37:34 well, the function that actually gave me problems (an encoding error) was asdf:oos - also to be avoided? 05:38:05 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 05:38:49 o.O 05:39:31 ? 05:39:43 What kind of error? 05:40:49 You can't avoid it. asdf:oos is what you load (among others) systems with 05:40:53 Coding system iso-latin-1-unix not suitable for "00006c(:emacs-rex (swank:listener-eval \"(asdf:oos ’asdf:load-op ’sheeple) 05:40:53 \") \"COMMON-LISP-USER\" :repl-thread 150) 05:40:53 " 05:42:38 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:44:06 I had been searching on Google for a while but finally gave up, so now I'm here. 05:46:24 -!- huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 05:47:40 is there any way I can isolate the problem, determine whether it's something about how Emacs does characters, something in Sheeple, or maybe my asdf installation itself? 05:49:06 (this is in Slime+SBCL btw) 05:49:40 Jesdisciple: it looks like you have some non-ascii quote marks 05:50:23 in this: (asdf:oos asdf:load-op sheeple) 05:50:34 oh, heh... those came from the Sheeple PDF 05:51:05 that may be the problem -- i'd try changing those to normal single quotes 05:51:17 just did - new error 05:51:19 beach [~user@116.118.72.132] has joined #lisp 05:51:29 Good afternoon everyone! 05:51:57 (hi) looks like I might be using quickklips after all 05:51:59 afternoon (morning, evening, midnight, what-have-you) 05:52:00 component "sheeple" not found 05:52:00 [Condition of type ASDF:MISSING-COMPONENT] 05:52:31 quicklisp* 05:53:35 mmm quicklips 05:53:43 sheeple? 05:54:21 pattern: yeah, not sure how to take that literally 05:54:45 sheeple = prototype-based CL lib 05:56:59 odd... earlier SBCL didn't know the load function, and that was going to be my next question 05:57:09 -!- sailorreality [~IceChat7@74.198.148.45] has left #lisp 05:57:20 but now that I got a different error from asdf:oos it remembered 06:01:48 good morning all 06:01:58 Hello kushal. 06:02:06 beach, hi there 06:03:21 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 06:03:41 fred` [~user@ppp-71-139-23-90.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:11 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-112.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:05:27 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:06:01 Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118725 I used #s to separate the REPL from the error 06:09:12 asdf apparently doesn't like me... 06:10:33 any feedback, please? 06:12:46 Jesdisciple: sorry if this is what you're doing, but do you have asdf-install? 06:12:51 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 06:14:03 asdf:oos failed after that so I tried quicklisp 06:14:32 supposedly asdf-install:install worked, but asdf:oos didn't find anything 06:16:32 *Jesdisciple* wonders whether he's just unlucky or this is normal for ASDF newbies 06:16:35 ooooh 06:16:49 try this: (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :sheeple) 06:17:38 yes, ASDF can be a bit of a pain to set up 06:17:52 but once you do, it is beautiful 06:19:07 should I still do test-op after that? 06:19:15 -!- fred` [~user@ppp-71-139-23-90.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:19:29 before I had (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'sheeple) 06:19:54 which worked fine (with quicklisp, not with asdf-install) 06:20:26 then (in-package :sheeple-user) and (asdf:oos 'asdf:test-op 'sheeple) 06:21:04 obviously I should have included context in the paste, sorry about that 06:21:31 but I get the same error after running that line and then retrying test-op 06:21:37 well, the call to asdf:operate should have completely loaded sheeple 06:21:45 so just try using sheeple 06:21:55 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:26:27 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:26:30 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:26:42 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:27:29 -!- caelan [~caelan@gnu/webmaster/caelan] has left #lisp 06:28:15 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:30:47 -!- sm` [s@77.29.16.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:35:23 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 06:35:29 I have one more (hopefully last) question 06:35:44 is there a tutorial anyone can recommend for Sheeple? 06:36:02 -!- pnq [~nick@AC8371DA.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:36:17 the PDF manual is good for installation instructions, but after that just acts as a specification 06:38:58 Liera [~user@123.20.51.124] has joined #lisp 06:39:26 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:40:57 fred` [~user@ppp-71-139-23-90.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:03 -!- fred` [~user@ppp-71-139-23-90.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 06:41:20 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-lswtdwyxyghjdepe] has joined #lisp 06:41:30 regardless, thanks for the help 06:41:33 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@178.Red-79-146-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 06:43:10 What's a prototype in this context? 06:43:14 <--herp derp 06:43:18 *jesusabdullah* found the lib 06:44:18 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.207] has joined #lisp 06:45:13 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:46:21 woo! half way done with the 99 lisp problems.. 06:47:43 99 problems but a lisp aint' one? 06:48:29 http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~meidanis/courses/mc336/2006s2/funcional/L-99_Ninety-Nine_Lisp_Problems.html 06:50:03 no, lisp isn't popular enough to be a problem... for now it's a (hypothetical) solution 06:50:07 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:50:21 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 06:50:24 -!- Liera [~user@123.20.51.124] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 06:51:16 Liera [~user@123.20.51.124] has joined #lisp 06:54:26 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 07:00:19 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:55 If you got s-expression problems I feel bad for you, son! 07:04:08 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-31.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:06:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-112.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11:47 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-140-59.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:12:36 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:22 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.114.207] has quit [Quit: ] 07:14:44 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:15:51 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-140-59.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 07:17:00 -!- rme [rme@clozure-1F3CDCA9.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 07:17:00 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 07:17:33 -!- Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:01 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-140-59.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:18:49 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:19:10 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 07:20:44 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:25:35 vinnana [~pkensche@cmbipc58.cmbi.umcn.nl] has joined #lisp 07:27:06 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 07:27:09 -!- sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:27:28 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:12 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has joined #lisp 07:39:12 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:42:11 Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:10 _mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 07:47:06 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:49:09 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:49:48 sm` [s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 07:50:12 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.49.61.227] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 07:50:27 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 07:51:51 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:51:59 good morning 07:52:38 majhool [~mrw@user-0can1en.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 07:55:35 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 07:55:42 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-32-15-183.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:00 -!- vinnana [~pkensche@cmbipc58.cmbi.umcn.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:57 morning 08:04:29 xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db84c6c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:07 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-78.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:15:39 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:16:52 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.211.35] has joined #lisp 08:18:53 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-140-59.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:19:16 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-pxowdikkrasliqvl] has joined #lisp 08:20:04 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-158-39.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:24:07 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:24:09 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has joined #lisp 08:37:56 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:51 happy everyone 08:41:47 morning from .pt (: 08:41:50 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:47:07 morning 08:50:12 how's startup life Krystof? 08:50:37 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-69-250.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:52:23 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-127-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:54:06 -!- xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db84c6c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: xraycat] 08:54:23 xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db84c6c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:51 -!- majhool [~mrw@user-0can1en.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 08:56:18 slyrus_ oh, did he create a startup or is he just working for one? 08:57:49 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:58:15 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 09:05:29 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:10:00 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:12:25 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:12:40 carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.21] has joined #lisp 09:16:17 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:16:59 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 09:32:13 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 09:32:32 slyrus_: exhausting 09:33:34 stressful. tiring. timesucking. Marginally less paperwork-intensive than academia 09:35:37 of course the fact that I'm trying to maintain my presence in academia /as well/ colours all this 09:36:11 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.207] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:36:22 (3 journal papers in 2010; at least one in 2011; grant proposal due the end of this month) 09:36:59 CallToPower [~CallToPow@2001:638:508:c20:cabc:c8ff:fedc:33ce] has joined #lisp 09:45:34 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7559b4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:05 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-78.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:47:44 -!- hemanth [~hemanth@203.187.255.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:47:47 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:48:47 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:52:46 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:14 -!- _hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Remote host 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http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~meidanis/courses/mc336/2006s2/funcional/p01.lisp what kind of bloody formatting nonsense is this!? 10:23:54 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-wckhvenceimqadyl] has left #lisp 10:24:40 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-36.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:24:42 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:25:51 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-eedhnmmosnaapbae] has joined #lisp 10:28:58 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:29:04 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:29:14 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:29:40 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:32:18 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 10:33:43 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-36.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 10:33:50 -!- _hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] 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#lisp 11:09:22 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:24 OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 11:09:24 -!- OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Client Quit] 11:10:47 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:14:10 pkhuong: cool, what are you doing in Portugal? 11:14:16 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:16:24 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:16:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 11:19:17 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-28.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:20:30 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-28.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:21:14 Yuuhi [benni@p5483B3B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:50 -!- homie 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schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:04:54 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-36.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:04:54 ocharles: if it only were the formatting that is nonsense. 12:04:57 -!- H4ns````` is now known as H4ns 12:05:05 H4ns: heh, I was waiting for someone to say that :) 12:06:31 luis: sending postcards, maybe 12:07:56 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:13:34 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:51 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-36.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 12:14:11 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 12:22:16 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:12 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.18.248] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:25:08 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 12:25:57 Xach: my travel plans have changed, i'll be in boston from 8-feb through 16-feb now. 12:26:40 -!- benny [~benny@i577A205E.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:27:51 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #lisp 12:28:47 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:29:02 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:29:28 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7559b4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:31:14 H4ns: ooh, that is more promising. 12:32:50 Xach: so do i think. in particular as i'll be staying over the weekend and thus won't be as strict about staying in my time zone. 12:33:43 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@2001:638:508:c20:cabc:c8ff:fedc:33ce] has quit [Quit: > /dev/null 2>&1] 12:34:35 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 12:35:30 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-ivrpzzszvqptdylv] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:40:38 -!- __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:41:07 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-vnqcxbbrhfbtqwzg] has joined #lisp 12:44:11 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:44:37 __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 12:46:17 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:03 sm`wor [~chatzilla@78.40.4.40] has joined #lisp 12:57:52 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 12:57:53 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:00:36 with cffi to use a c written function gtom a c file (code) using for example defcfun, I first have to make gcc compile the dynamic library from the c file and then load it into sbcl with load-foreign-library... Is there a shortcut whereby I don't have to pass by the dynamic library? 13:00:56 s/gtom/from 13:01:20 francogrex: in general, no. 13:01:41 port zeta-c to sbcl? 13:02:48 francogrex: you can use cffi-grovel to automatize this process 13:05:22 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 13:06:26 ok so whether zeta-c or cffi-grovel, it's direct interaction with the c compiler that is needed 13:06:52 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 13:07:03 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:09:52 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.21] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 13:14:55 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:15:58 francogrex: what's the other alternative? you expect common lisp compiler to load the c file and compile that? 13:16:15 "13 The Groveller" doesn't give an example; like from the basic ingredients (cffi, the c-file and sbcl) how to proceed. Do you have a link to an example of how to set up a CFFI-Grovel specification file for gcc? 13:17:26 jdz: I'm not expecting anything. I am only getting information on what is possible 13:18:48 francogrex: http://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib/blobs/master/src/sockets/wrappers.lisp 13:19:09 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:19:46 francogrex: and you need to specify the file type in the defsystem as cffi-grovel:wrapper-file 13:20:16 fe[nl]ix: ok thanks 13:20:38 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:21:09 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 13:22:04 CDomovoy [~cd@AToulouse-257-1-146-35.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:23:44 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:45 dr0id [~andy@unaffiliated/dr0id] has joined #lisp 13:24:51 -!- dr0id [~andy@unaffiliated/dr0id] has left #lisp 13:24:54 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-184-177-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:25:06 -!- CyberDomovoy [~cd@AToulouse-257-1-98-20.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:27:00 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:28:44 Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-20-180.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:33:56 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:34 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:28 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 13:42:41 -!- misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:44:43 IamTrying [~IamTrying@78-23-95-152.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 13:45:30 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:45:45 urandom__ [~user@p548A7F26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:17 Does lisp has pre-processing and pointers ? Can i use lisp to write my new language like alternative c/pascal ? 13:47:02 no and yes 13:47:20 IamTrying: Common Lisp has powerful compile time programming capabilities 13:47:25 Much more powerful than the C preprocessor 13:47:48 Although you could obviously still run it through a C preprocessor first 13:47:58 Although I have no idea why you would want to 13:49:13 I liked Ada (very much) and C/C++ (pascal/java/lua), but i want to write my own small language. Which will be a alternative of all other language for my own. 13:50:15 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:51:49 Why Lisp but not Ada ? What lisp can do that Ada cant ? actually any idea ? 13:52:10 It can be the topic of this channel. 13:52:18 amb007 [~a_bakic@72.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:58 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:53:23 IamTrying: yeah, why stop at Ada? What lisp can do what Turing Machine can't? 13:53:26 -!- __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:53:35 IamTrying: common lisp is a general-purpose programming language and can do lots of stuff. 13:53:42 IamTrying: do you also go to a McDonalds store and asks why McDonalds and not Burger King? 13:54:22 jdz: Lisp doesn't attract the attention of academics as much 13:54:38 IamTrying: in case you do, we're not here to sell you anything 13:54:40 ramkrsna_ [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ssgfipgrddzacfyn] has joined #lisp 13:54:53 __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 13:56:31 adeht, i did Ada, Pascal, C/C++, Python, Java, Php, Asp, Purebasic, Lua, Fasm/Nasm, but never did Lisp. Everytime learning attracts me, after 13 years behind i want to write my own language using Lisp can i make one ? 13:57:13 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:57:24 IamTrying: you can make your own language in any language. 13:57:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:57:33 IamTrying: Certainly. But I found that once I started learning lisp, I put off my language-making for a few years, because it introduced me to a lot of new stuff. 13:58:00 statonjr [~statonjr@rrcs-70-60-193-169.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:58:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 13:59:17 Does Lisp has pointer logic ? 13:59:36 IamTrying: what is "pointer logic"? 13:59:40 Or it uses references. 13:59:44 & * 14:00:08 IamTrying: it uses references. if you want to do pointer arithmetic, you can do so using integer datatypes. 14:01:01 Lisp doesn't have pointers or references 14:01:05 H4ns, java/python uses references but that is not pure pointer like C 14:01:20 Java and Python also don't have references 14:01:47 Yes it is, Logic is reference from pointer reference. 14:01:55 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 14:02:08 But if Lisp does not allow pointer how someone can write a second language on top of it ? 14:02:11 IamTrying: i suggest that you learn lisp. it is a great language and it will teach you a lot. 14:02:38 there are extensions that allow you to point to and dereference arbitrary addresses 14:02:39 IamTrying: i don't know why pointer arithmetic would be a requirement for implementing languages. 14:04:19 -!- ramkrsna_ [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-ssgfipgrddzacfyn] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:05:41 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-36.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:06:31 (when I say that they don't have references, I mean they don't support passing arguments by reference, nor have first-class support for references.. they obviously have the concept of one thing referencing another) 14:07:05 manic12 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:02 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has left #lisp 14:09:47 -!- javuchi [~noname@235.Red-193-152-254.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:11:18 IamTrying: You can always implement a datatype that supports pointer arithmetic... E.g. assemblers written in lisp do offer such data types, so you can program like you would in assembler.. 14:12:08 ic 14:12:26 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:13:05 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 14:13:21 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-5-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:15:13 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:16:10 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has left #lisp 14:16:33 Genieliu [~genie@59.78.62.120] has joined #lisp 14:21:02 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:57 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:22 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 14:25:08 -!- Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:26:25 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:28:05 leo2007 [~leo@124.72.186.253] has joined #lisp 14:29:19 javuchi [~noname@105.Red-95-123-193.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:08 -!- javuchi [~noname@105.Red-95-123-193.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:31 javuchi [~noname@105.Red-95-123-193.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:25 nk23 [~~3@203-219-242-59.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:32:07 -!- Genieliu [~genie@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:34:30 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:35:48 -!- nk23 [~~3@203-219-242-59.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:37:01 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:41:04 tirinim. 14:41:25 nk23 [~~3@203-219-242-59.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:43:58 hi, I have a really beginner question. How do I do 2 operations in.. one set of brackets/clause? for example if I had an if statement where the condition is true, 2 operations occur? ie, setting a value to 5 and printing text to the screen. can it be done without calling a new function? 14:44:43 nk23: yes. you can use PROGN, although i'd generally recommend COND instead of IF if your then or else clause require more than one form. 14:46:06 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-167.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:46:50 -!- Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-20-180.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:48:34 thanks 14:48:57 nk23, or, if you only need one clause (either the true or false statements), use when/unless - these already have a progn in them. 14:51:02 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:52:27 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 14:52:38 benny` [~benny@i577A2047.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:48 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-218-205.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:54:04 -!- benny` is now known as benny 14:56:35 Xach, qt package is broken in latest quicklisp release. known issue? 14:57:03 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 14:57:07 broken how? 14:57:08 -!- nk23 [~~3@203-219-242-59.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:57:29 lichtblau: Is there any way in clbuild to tell get_darcs to get a specific tag? 14:58:26 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-70-8.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:59:06 tic: How so? 15:00:04 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:06:07 sellout: hmm, I don't think so. Not yet. You could add an optional third argument to get_darcs in internals/get-misc.sh. 15:06:30 lichtblau: Ok, cool, I'll check that out. 15:06:40 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:07:50 lichtblau: Also, a minor issue I'm seeing: "internal/download.sh: line 147: test: too many arguments" 15:08:06 When it's checking if there are any asd files. 15:09:39 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:09:55 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:13 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:09 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 15:17:38 LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-216-46.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:49 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:19:41 Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has joined #lisp 15:20:26 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:20:26 does cxml have a facility to compare DOM docs 15:21:01 ...before I go and do it myself 15:22:56 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:33 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-5-119.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:26:07 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-110-125.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:27:07 thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has joined #lisp 15:27:18 Xach, http://paste.lisp.org/display/118733 15:27:30 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:28:11 do you have smoke bindings installed? 15:29:26 -!- __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29:58 I thought quicklisp would take care of required deps automagically. If not, then that's probably that! I'll check again after consulting apt. 15:30:36 smoke installed, still no go. 15:31:26 __hramrach [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/hramrach] has joined #lisp 15:31:40 annotated the paste 15:31:58 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:32:24 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@209.221.3.130] has left #lisp 15:33:53 tic: well, can you to that directory and issue make? 15:33:57 can you go 15:35:13 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-31.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:35:29 preceded by qmake, of course 15:35:34 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-31.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:35:35 -!- ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:35:35 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:35:46 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:36:58 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:37:37 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:37:51 when i (describe '=) i am told that it's "COMMON-LISP:=" but when i (describe 'foo) i am told that it's "COMMON-LISP-USER::FOO" 15:37:58 -!- Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:38:09 what is the significance of : vs :: ? 15:38:23 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:18 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:39:39 pattern: :: allows you to access non-exported symbols 15:39:43 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:13 describe uses single colon to write exported symbols and double - for intrnal 15:40:51 Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:41:07 If you use :: in your code you probably doing something wrong. Unless you're sure you're not :) 15:41:51 tic: quicklisp does not install foreign libraries for you at the moment. 15:42:49 tic: It sounds like you are still missing some library. 15:42:53 Xach: It probably shouldn't do it at all. 15:43:13 naryl: I agree in some circumstances, but not all. 15:44:38 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:17 Building a C library requires a complex infrastructure. Make, gcc, autotools, cmake etc. And you can't bring your binary libs in a binary distro. 15:45:53 sometimes you need some C glue, though 15:46:09 dlowe: unfortunately you're right 15:50:06 This brings up a question I had  is there any way to do something like DEFCALLBACK, except that it actually adds an entry to the symbol table? IE, you can call it by name. 15:50:15 Do any impls offer something like that? 15:51:15 not AFAIK 15:52:19 I have a project where I have a bit of C code, and it's only because of that. Would love it to be 100% CL, even if not that portable at the moment (better than keeping all that autotools mess in there). 15:53:25 sellout: but you can do it with some indirection 15:53:39 fe[nl]ix: Oh? 15:53:47 It's not obvious to me how. 15:55:33 use a global function pointer and a C function that just delegates to it. the CL side sets the function pointer to the address of the callback after loading the C glue library 15:56:29 fe[nl]ix: Yeah, but I still have C glue code  if I have glue code, I don't mind the current functions being written in C. I'd just like to get rid of the C all together. 15:56:47 aah, I see 15:57:14 Jesdisciple: (ql:quickload 'sheeple) As far as usage goes... you're mostly on your own there, although it's pretty similar to CLOS in usage-ish. I haven't worked on Sheeple in over a year now, I think, so YMMV on quality. 15:58:14 sellout: in order to do that you'd need deep knowledge of the dynamic loader's internals 15:58:30 drdo` [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:226:8ff:fef7:3d9e] has joined #lisp 15:58:57 sellout: it's doable, but you'd have to read your the sources of your libc and rewrite (parts of) dlopen in CL 15:59:09 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:59:12 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 15:59:28 heh, yeah, ok  I'll consider myself happy with the current state, then. 15:59:35 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:00:03 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:19 naryl: thanks 16:01:13 twem2 [~twem2@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:39 sellout: at a certain point I thought of doing that, but considering that I'd have to write it for each OS(Linux, *BSDs, OSX) I gave up 16:02:03 Yeah, exactly. Ugh. 16:05:59 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:28 sellout: what would your target OS be ? 16:08:39 Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-122-200.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:08:50 fe[nl]ix: Well, I'd like it to be OS portable, but personally, OS X. 16:09:32 whose libc sources aren't public, I suppose ? 16:09:33 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:10:09 *shrug* they probably are. Probably just BSD at that level. 16:16:08 -!- df_aldur_ is now known as df_aldur 16:19:32 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-lswtdwyxyghjdepe] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:20:31 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:38 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:21:04 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 16:21:36 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-167.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:25:02 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:25:49 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:28:07 -!- hemanth [~hemanth@203.187.255.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:29:21 -!- Liera [~user@123.20.51.124] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:30:10 tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 16:30:59 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:31:02 -!- pferor [~user@unaffiliated/pferor] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:16 pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 16:33:26 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.179.236] has joined #lisp 16:34:27 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:41:21 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:42:10 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:43:30 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:43:40 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.179.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:44:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-191.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:46:34 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 16:47:01 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 16:47:42 is this allowed as a default values: (gethash id *table* (list 0 0 0)) ? 16:47:44 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:15 Sure, but do you want to be building a list every time? 16:48:55 (multiple-value-bind (value found-p) (gethash id *table*) (if found-p value (list 0 0 0))) might be more efficient. 16:49:36 yes better. thanks 16:51:14 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:52:40 xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:10 Is there a difference between ``(progn exp*)'' in Lisp and ``(being exp*)'' in scheme--or are these just two names for the same operating principle? 16:53:22 s/being/begin/ 16:56:51 one is lisp the other is scheme 16:56:53 progn is lisp 16:57:28 dostoyevsky: PROGN in Lisp preserves toplevelness, I don't think scheme has a notion of that 16:57:45 dostoyevsky: "yes" 16:58:25 tcr1: Schemers have enough of a notion of it to know it's hopeless. 16:58:27 :) 17:01:02 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:01:35 cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:59 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-5-119.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04:27 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-5-119.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:06:05 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-31.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:06:39 -!- IamTrying [~IamTrying@78-23-95-152.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 17:06:48 -!- pragma_ [~pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has left #lisp 17:10:18 btw, someone made an IDE and compiler for non-Java language to Android, bypassing Java itself completely 17:10:40 http://www.basic4ppc.com/index.html <--- "Basic" for Android 17:11:15 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:08 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-112.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:13:14 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-vnqcxbbrhfbtqwzg] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:15:52 cheez [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:34 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 17:19:10 -!- emma_ is now known as em 17:19:12 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.49.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:20:59 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 17:21:08 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.177.209] has joined #lisp 17:22:06 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 17:24:20 -!- lum_sais [~kvirc@14.127.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 3900, sources date: 20100125, built on: 2010-07-07 00:42:53 UTC http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:25:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-206-31.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:40 jdz [~jdz@host12-105-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:30:14 -!- Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:31:23 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:32:08 Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:14 excellent. just what the world needs. 17:32:17 more basic programmers. 17:33:24 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33:53 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 17:35:04 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:35:34 yeah, but it shows that it's doable... I really would like to get something based on CL instead of Basic, though. Not enough time nor energy, unfortunately 17:36:00 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7559b4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:18 didn't the arm port of ccl work on some android systems? 17:36:27 grouzen [~grouzen@ip22-159.200.109.crimea.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:28 or am I thinking of ECL? 17:36:29 hrmn 17:37:10 there is a long way from "compiles on whatever unix-derived kernel" to "is a suitable development environment for native applications" 17:38:56 Fade: ECL is workable if you write your own JNI layer, or on 2.3 and later (API level >=9), which have official interface for native-only apps. 17:39:32 ahh 17:40:00 however, couple ECL not being exactly the fastest one out there, and the huge losses caused by constant switching between DVM and native, and it might not exactly be the best solution. Though it still needs to be benchmarked, unfortunately 2.3 isn't yet ported to my phone 17:40:05 what about clojure or armed bear? 17:40:31 Fade: clojure, even after modifications to make it start in less than half of eternity, kills the GC 17:40:38 dalvik too far removed from a normal jvm? 17:40:45 ah 17:41:00 2.3 however changed the GC 17:41:09 again, I'm in no position to check 17:41:17 hi all 17:41:29 I have a fairly stock motorola milestone. 17:41:36 still running 2.1 17:41:43 sorry for asking here but, is there any common software development analysis? 17:42:01 sid3k: i'm not sure what that means 17:42:02 as for ABCL, ask fusss, he afaik managed it to run - it won't be able to compile at runtime, though 17:42:08 Fade: I should prepare a document for a development task 17:42:16 analysis document 17:42:24 to answer some questions 17:42:27 also, you might need to fix it's class loader, as it uses custom class loader for its fasls 17:42:36 like; how many days will it take? 17:43:12 sid3k: writing software is like walking on water; it's easy when it's frozen. 17:43:43 kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:08 carlocci [~nes@93.37.207.216] has joined #lisp 17:46:53 does anyone here have the source code for Calendrical Calculations? could that person verify a date conversion for me? 17:48:00 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:53 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:49:53 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 17:50:42 http://emr.cs.iit.edu/~reingold/calendar.l 17:51:09 that's the code from the paper, older and different than the one in the book 17:51:45 i get different results for a very few of the samples show, but i see no error in my function. 17:52:41 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:53:15 email the authors 17:54:19 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.211.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:55:26 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:56:01 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:56:10 hm.. seems it's a problem with scheme's QUOTIENT compared to lisp's FLOOR 17:59:00 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:27 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:46 -!- ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:03:49 Bronsa [~Bronsa@host219-181-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:03:55 CallToPower [~CallToPow@xdsl-92-252-46-247.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:04:28 Liera [~vuong@123.20.51.124] has joined #lisp 18:04:53 mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has joined #lisp 18:05:03 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:05:19 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:06:39 -!- Liera [~vuong@123.20.51.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:03 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:20 Liera [~vuong@123.20.51.124] has joined #lisp 18:08:10 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:35 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:09:18 kruft` [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:33 ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:24 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:11:43 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@79.112.236.252] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:12:38 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:13:07 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:07 Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.114.207] has joined #lisp 18:18:10 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:18:22 vieq [~vieq@metabug/vieq] has joined #lisp 18:18:39 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:19:34 -!- vieq [~vieq@metabug/vieq] has left #lisp 18:19:56 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-218.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:20:10 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:21:35 hargettp [~hargettp@65.219.237.244] has joined #lisp 18:21:40 i just typed: (make-package "test") (in-package "test") 18:21:51 but now when i type *package* i get an error: "The variable *PACKAGE* is unbound." 18:22:11 shouldn't *package* always be bound to the package i'm currently in? 18:23:05 pattern: yes, except the *package* symbol is in common-lisp package, not your test package 18:23:11 try cl:*package* 18:23:21 ah 18:24:16 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-219-114.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:24:21 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:25:17 hmm.. so how do i get back to the regular common-lisp-user package? 18:25:22 i tried: (in-package "COMMON-LISP-USER") 18:25:25 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:25:32 but got an error: "The function |test|::IN-PACKAGE is undefined." 18:26:03 -!- rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:26:09 pattern: because in-package is defined in package :CL -- so write it as cl:in-package 18:26:57 rien [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:27:06 ah 18:27:09 interesting.. 18:27:10 note that normally you use the cl package 18:27:14 right 18:27:19 it's all starting to make sense now.. 18:27:25 pattern: cool :) 18:27:35 :) 18:27:55 pattern: (progn (unintern '*package*) (unintern 'in-package) (use-package '#:cl)) 18:27:57 I think I read somewhere something about putting a defpackage form (even when prefixed) at the top of a source file being considered harmful. I know this is kinda vague. Does anyone recall such a thing? 18:28:04 -!- Phoodus [~foo@ip68-231-47-70.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:28:53 sykopomp: I do that in my files containing unit test code...so ouch if true :) 18:29:13 hargettp: yeah. I've gotten in the habit of making smaller packages, myself. :) 18:30:10 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.88.208] has joined #lisp 18:30:11 Hexstream: could you explain what that does? 18:30:18 faux [~user@c-219c70d5.035-128-67626713.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:32:07 sykopomp: I think PCL advocates a separate file for defpackages 18:32:15 pattern: When you tried using *PACKAGE* and IN-PACKAGE earlier without the CL package being available, these symbols were interned. So if you try to USE-PACKAGE CL, you'll get a symbol conflict. So that's why I tried to spare you the trouble by uninterning these symbols before using USE-PACKAGE. 18:32:46 what's the difference between un-interning them and exporting them? 18:33:02 pattern: uninterning a symbol means removing it from package 18:33:15 and where is it when it's no longer in a package? 18:33:16 exporting - making it available from other packages 18:33:52 pattern: It still lives but can't be referenced through a package anymore. 18:34:02 Some objects may still have a reference to it. 18:34:29 The lisp printer will normally output uninterned symbols with the #: prefix. 18:34:31 once it's uninterned, can new references be made to it? if so, how? 18:34:32 -!- cheez [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:34:55 For instance: (make-symbol "TEST") => #:TEST 18:34:56 -!- Liera [~vuong@123.20.51.124] has quit [Quit: Quit] 18:35:23 pattern: If you hold a reference to a symbol somewhere, you can put that reference into another place 18:35:33 but if i don't..? 18:35:40 pattern: but if you don't, you have to redefine it 18:35:45 then the GC will garbage collect 18:35:50 pattern: Then the symbol can't be referred to anymore and will eventually be garbage-collected. 18:35:54 say i did (unintern '*package*) can i no longer reference *package*? 18:36:12 pattern: Trying to unintern symbols in the CL package has undefined consequences. 18:36:18 ah 18:36:33 pattern: http://sprunge.us/aSib?cl 18:36:33 The CL package is a holy land that you shall not attempt to modify the definition of in any way. 18:36:38 OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has joined #lisp 18:36:38 -!- OliverUv_ [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Client Quit] 18:37:00 cheez [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:30 pattern: what hexstream was trying to help you do was cleanup your |test| package :) 18:37:54 trying to evaluate a will result in "symbol has no value" obviously 18:38:09 because it will be *another* symbol A 18:38:29 right 18:38:37 i think i understand 18:39:36 uninterning something from a package is sort of like deleting a file from a unix directory 18:39:48 if there's a hard link to it somewhere else, it still exists 18:39:57 pattern: yep, good analogy 18:39:58 and can be referred to through that hard link 18:41:09 now, what about (use-package '#:cl) ? 18:41:31 is that the same as (use-package "COMMON-LISP-USER") ? 18:41:39 pattern:nope...2 different packages 18:41:41 Using a package means that all that package's exported symbols become "available" in the using package. 18:41:48 WM2D [~flengyel@pool-71-167-253-49.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:34 So if the current package uses package CL, then *package* is equivalent to cl:*package*. 18:42:54 right 18:42:57 makes sense 18:43:22 -!- CallToPower [~CallToPow@xdsl-92-252-46-247.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: > /dev/null 2>&1] 18:43:49 would that be the same as importing all the symbols in CL ? 18:44:23 pattern: importing all the external symbols of CL, yes 18:44:29 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:36 pattern: There are subtle differences, but mostly yes. 18:44:42 i see 18:44:50 thanks for clearing this up for me, everyone 18:44:55 yw :) 18:47:02 now, what you guys were saying about it not being kosher to use defpackage at the top of a source file... 18:47:07 what should you do instead? 18:47:28 and is the only difference between defpackage and make-package that the former returns the package, while the latter only creates it? 18:47:28 pattern: Use (in-package #:cl-user) at the top and then you can use DEFPACKAGE. 18:48:07 DEFPACKAGE is to DEFUN as MAKE-PACKAGE is to LAMBDA, basically. 18:48:13 pattern: defpackage at the top of a source file is quite kosher I'd say 18:48:17 um no 18:48:29 mephisto_ [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:32 jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:36 The act of creating a package and assigning it a name in the global namespace are two different things. Something like that. 18:48:36 defpackage is make-package + import, use-package, shadow etc + compile-time effects 18:48:39 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:49:42 question concerning past 118736 I suspect the code is unlispy 18:50:00 Hexstream: make-package registers a global name for a package :-) 18:50:22 tcr1: Oh. :( I don't use dynamic package features often ;) 18:52:52 Hum. Wasn't there a way to create a package without registering a global name for it?... 18:54:10 nope 18:55:21 you can make and delete a package but the result is not a real package anymore, I forgot the details but you're not allowed to use certain operations on it anymore 18:55:27 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.179.253] has joined #lisp 18:57:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-112.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:00 tcr1: "The consequences of invoking any other package operation on package once it has been deleted are unspecified." The only operations permitted are PACKAGEP and PACKAGE-NAME. 18:58:20 In other words, the package may as well not exist. 18:58:42 Style vivisection request concerning http://paste.lisp.org/display/118736 18:59:11 not even find-symbol? 18:59:48 clhs delete-package 19:00:04 The bot situation is ridiculous. 19:00:21 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-57-204.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:53 WM2D: have you read Lisp code from others? 19:01:08 "In particular, the consequences of invoking find-symbol, intern and other functions that look for a symbol name in a package are unspecified if they are called with *package* bound to the deleted package or with the deleted package as an argument. " 19:01:21 Hello all. 19:01:27 hey nyef 19:01:28 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:35 WM2D: Did it look like that? 19:02:21 splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:02:29 morning 19:03:24 Xach: apologies, not used to xchat conventions 19:03:25 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-206-31.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:21 WM2D: Normal Lisp code does not put close-parens on their own line. 19:05:54 Xach: OK still getting used to slime 19:05:59 WM2D: and 3 letter variable names are usually taboo 19:06:40 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:06:50 tsuru: why? what is the convention? 19:07:16 DESCRIPTIVE-NAME 19:07:31 because your IDE can probably complete d-n 19:07:41 -!- [df]_ is now known as [df] 19:07:55 That would mean LEAST-COMMON-MULTIPLE instead of lcm 19:08:03 (Just so it's clear, descriptive-name in lowercase.) 19:08:45 WM2D: Bingo. 19:09:07 That's easy for a hex-stream to say. 19:09:23 wait wait.. all caps is definitely not modern convention... 19:09:26 -!- cheez [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:10:04 but least-common-multiple would be okay... then you could probably type l-c-m and then your editor will fix it 19:10:07 We write code in lowercase but when we chat about symbol names we tend to put them in UPPERCASE to distinguish them from other words in the sentence. 19:10:19 cheez [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:34 Hexstream: I know but in this case I don't think he's aware of that convention either... 19:10:50 tsuru: Hence my exposing it. 19:11:06 heh I thought that was directed at me; apologies 19:11:15 Convention absorbed. 19:14:39 I realize I was taking a tremendous risk with my first paste 19:16:47 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:17:01 WM2D: Not really. Not making that paste would have been riskier IMHO ;) 19:19:14 why isn't this working? (cl:import cl:*package*) 19:19:16 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:19:22 the error i get is: "The value # is not of type (COMMON-LISP:OR COMMON-LISP:CONS COMMON-LISP:SYMBOL)." 19:19:40 i'm in the "test" package 19:20:23 pattern: what are you trying to do? 19:20:31 import *package* in to the "test" package 19:20:40 so i can just type *package* from there 19:20:42 quote it, then. 19:20:49 ah 19:20:51 Hexstream: You mean, I could have cut and pasted into the channel... 19:21:06 WM2D: No, no!! 19:21:47 WM2D: haha.. yeah.. do that ;) 19:21:51 Hexstream: I know this is an egregious error. 19:21:57 pattern: have you read at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html ? 19:22:37 tsuru: not yet.. i was reading some other tutorials.. but they seem to be out of date or not applicable to sbcl 19:22:40 i'll check that out 19:24:28 pattern: all the other chapters on that site are great too... and can be read during power outages if you purchase it in book form 19:24:57 Seibel is chatty on occasion. I like Barski's periodic table of the loop macro. 19:24:58 ... or if you get your paws on the pdf and have a good battery in your laptop. 19:27:01 yeah, i definitely mean to read the whole thing.. i've heard nothing but good things about it 19:27:23 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:27:26 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:30:19 Well, back to an NSF proposal. Tnx. 19:30:33 -!- WM2D [~flengyel@pool-71-167-253-49.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: WM2D QRT] 19:31:36 ... Clearly, my NES emulation background is still strong: I initially parsed that as having something to do with the "nosefart" music format, not any other NSF. 19:32:34 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.72.186.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:34:10 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:06 quick informal poll: 19:35:21 what is everyone's favorite short lisp advocacy article? 19:35:48 if you were going to send an article to a computer-literate friend describing some of the advantages of lisp, what would you send? 19:37:20 Perhaps Beating the Averages by Paul Graham: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html At least that's the article that got me to investigate Lisp for the first time. 19:38:17 ttb [~frinnn@i59F6038E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:21 hmm.. yeah.. i thought it might be a paul graham article.. 19:40:19 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:41:40 -!- _ism [~frinnn@i59F63AAD.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:47:39 francogrex [~user@109.130.56.48] has joined #lisp 19:50:29 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:50:37 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-128-177.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:42 quack [~quack@bl21-30-3.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:56:14 "lisp makes the sun shine and the grass green and the birds sing" :P 19:57:25 pattern: I vote for the first chapter of PCL 19:57:51 pcl? 19:57:58 Practical Common Lisp. 19:58:03 ah, yes 19:58:09 "yellow/black" 19:58:27 The #1 community-recommended book to start with Common Lisp. 19:58:29 pattern: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/introduction-why-lisp.html 19:59:07 I preferred http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 19:59:27 mainly because it actually explains conses in detail (to a degree that I needed to understand them) 20:05:13 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-40-237.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:05:34 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-5-119.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:06:06 my own vote would be for this... http://lists.warhead.org.uk/pipermail/iwe/2005-July/000130.html 20:06:39 Touretzky's book is ok actually great for a gentle introduction, but PCL is something you can keep as a reference even whebn you're already an "expert" 20:07:40 i keep CLHS under my pillow 20:07:47 not PCL 20:08:02 *Landr* still doesn't understand macros ;/ 20:08:06 i like cltl2 20:08:49 Landr: that's because they're very simple, and you fool yourself into thinking that they're complex, and they appear to you to be complex 20:09:02 -!- cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:23 cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:23 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-139.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:09:45 _ism [~frinnn@i59F6135C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:01 i understand they just transform/insert large bits of code just before compilation 20:10:06 pattern: I probably first got the "oh my god" in the second practical of PCL 20:10:08 but i don't see how that's magical 20:10:13 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@c-98-210-227-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:29 -!- drdo [~user@2001:690:2100:1b:226:8ff:fef7:3d9e] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:10:49 perhaps because it isn't 20:11:11 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:11:16 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.177.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:11:16 lisp macros are very primitive, yet powerful, but the users of inferior languages are in awe 20:11:44 i guess i haven't reached the point yet where I've needed macros 20:11:49 Landr: Basically, a macro is a function that takes some "sugared" representation of code and returns a less-sugared representation that eventually means something concretely. 20:12:00 ocharles: what does the second practical of PCL have you do? 20:12:27 Landr: you don't need them most of the time 20:12:30 Hexstream: so why use macros and not functions? 20:12:36 or rather, 'when' use macros? 20:12:46 -!- ttb [~frinnn@i59F6038E.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:12:47 pattern: create a testing framework 20:12:53 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.63.175] has joined #lisp 20:12:57 Because the function that implements the macro gets the raw forms in its call, not evaluated. 20:13:01 loop is a nice macro i've used 20:13:02 yes, you can always use functions instead of functions, but it will look out of place 20:13:03 because that was my first experience with macros and it makes them really clear 20:13:10 functions instead of macros 20:14:16 with macros you can introduce a new language feature and it will look like it was there before 20:14:22 Landr: iy you use lisp, you're using macros all the time 20:14:29 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:14:46 amongst other things, macros give you the ability to evaluate arguments out of order (and conditionally) 20:15:03 http://landoflisp.com/trade_macro.png :-) 20:15:45 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:15:46 anyway... i'm still having problems understanding hash-tables: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118739 20:15:49 *Landr* is only at page 160 :p 20:16:02 you can do that with functions: (defun functional-if (condition cont-then cont-else) (if condition (funcall cont-then) (funcall cont-else))) 20:16:22 ah, now those I do understand (i think) 20:16:26 and call it (functional-if (> x 5) (lambda () (* x 10)) (lambda () (* x 20))) 20:18:16 hmm... but using a function means it will have to be called every time... whereas if we use a macro, it sets it properly and spares us a function call at runtime? 20:19:17 no, it doesn't mean that 20:19:24 :( 20:20:53 pnq [~nick@AC81D6F1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:30 francogrex: perhaps it doesn't print anything because you don't modify your hashtable 20:22:37 -!- xan_ [~xan@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:22:39 Landr: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118741 20:22:43 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 20:23:33 francogrex: try (loop for (id date location) in *data* for value = (gethash id *table* (list 0 0)) do (setf (car value) date (cadr value) location (gethash id *table*) value)) instead 20:25:30 tcr2 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has joined #lisp 20:25:33 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:44 i want to read some bytes from *standard-input*, but read-sequence reads characters 20:25:52 how can i do some binary i/o ? 20:26:27 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-25-189.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:26:54 -!- cuartum [~Cuartum@89.Red-80-25-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 20:26:55 Dodek: READ-BYTE, READ-SEQUENCE. 20:27:08 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-139.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:27:14 Hexstream: so, the macro is a way to create lisp code? 20:27:32 Hexstream, i know about read-sequence. 20:27:35 i mean, define macro, insert values, out comes valid code (which you could've written yourself) 20:27:46 stassats: wow! i would never have figured out that code on my own... (sulk) 20:27:51 Landr: Yes, it's a code transformator. The compiler gives it a form and expects another form as value. 20:28:05 what happened to cliki.net? 20:28:07 hmm 20:28:26 Hexstream, thing is, *standard-input* has CHARACTER element-type 20:28:26 mitre_: server getting rebooted....just saw a notice on #tech.coop 20:28:35 Dodek: you need to reopen standard input in binary mode 20:28:41 oh, ok 20:28:43 that's implementation dependant 20:28:54 and weren't sbcl's streams bivalent? 20:29:40 stassats, ah, ok. 20:31:28 they are indeed 20:34:10 can I send an EOF /ctrl+c kind of character to a stream? i have a stream to a readline-kind-of-program that terminates on ctrl+c.. 20:34:28 ctrl+c sends a signal 20:34:31 usually 20:35:02 sigint, usually 20:35:29 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:35:49 ok i'll look into it 20:36:53 and for EOF, you just close the stream 20:38:22 Xach/stassats, re. failing quickload "qt", any suggestions as how I could see where it's failing? quickload "qt" doesn't give me much output 20:38:25 okay thanks, i better close the stream myself 20:38:41 tic: i've told you, qmake and then make 20:42:11 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:46:58 jikanter [~jikanter@66.146.192.29] has joined #lisp 20:51:23 arg, it's been too long since I read PCL so I gotta go re-read it >.< I hate reading familiar material 20:52:38 -!- sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:54:50 by the way, in case anyone's curious about Sheeple (as jesusabdullah seemed to be yesterday), this is the best explanation I could find: http://vimeo.com/7242003 20:54:53 -!- zakwilson [~quassel@chat.qniformchat.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:55:30 per the manual, apparently CLOS tutorials will work for Sheeple too, except for a few minor differences 20:56:04 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:42 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:56:46 stassats: do/did you use zeta-c ? 20:57:06 no, it only works on Lisp Machine Lisp 20:57:41 oh well! i wonder who still has one (like at his own home)... 20:58:03 and purportedly, isn't easily portable to CL 20:58:20 stassats, qmake where though? 20:58:56 in the directory where commonqt is situated, naturally 20:59:25 well, there isn't a qmakefile/makefile there. 20:59:40 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 20:59:42 hrm. 20:59:48 what's qmakefile? and why it should be there? 20:59:54 no idea. Nevermind :( 21:02:34 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:36 francogrex: no luck with cffi-grovel ? 21:02:49 zakwilson [~quassel@chat.qniformchat.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:31 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:33 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:04:36 REPL question: is there any way to navigate thru my previous commands, like up and down arrows in Bash? 21:04:46 M-p and M-n 21:04:47 M-p 21:04:54 in slime, of course 21:04:55 cool, thanks 21:05:00 (yes, SLIME) 21:05:32 that's good, because i'm not in the mood for fighting infidels 21:05:39 lol 21:05:44 mephisto_ [~mephisto@dyn-166.pool2.cable.TORON12.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:06:02 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 21:06:06 all hail emacs 21:06:07 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:06:39 up/down or , , in in slimv (I think) (: 21:07:21 and M-p has superpowers, it can match the beginning of an entered expression 21:07:27 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@rrcs-70-60-193-169.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:08:02 ah, Tab-esque navigation 21:08:03 You can do that with M-r too. 21:08:04 nice 21:08:25 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:09:46 can anyone recommend some code that is exceptionally well structured and demonstrates a beautiful lisp style? 21:10:31 On my previous stint, I was told that pushing Tab on every line in Emacs produces such code =p 21:11:01 fe[nl]ix: I just got around to trying it now (doing that now)... but I was curious about zeta-c (for different reasons) 21:11:01 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-218.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:11:19 -!- quack [~quack@bl21-30-3.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:11:26 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-218.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:14:21 Jesdisciple: C-j conveniently inserts a newline and indents in one operation. 21:15:08 there doesn't happen to be a command to do that to the whole file? 21:15:17 And C-M-q reindents a whole s-expression. 21:18:21 C-x h C-M-\ 21:18:25 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@65.219.237.244] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:19:50 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:19:50 I prefer the verbose M-x indent-region 21:20:13 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:13 C-M-\ is near impossible to type on my keyboard so that would be C-x M-x indent-region. 21:20:25 that's what I was thinking 21:20:33 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:20:34 I mean, C-x h M-x indent-region 21:20:48 here's a nickel, buy yourself a real keyboard 21:21:22 pretty sure I'd have to go somwhere other than Wal-Mart for Dvorak or whatnot 21:21:28 in europe we use azerty 21:21:35 not about real or unreal 21:21:42 which would entail a nice long trip since I'm in a small town 21:22:24 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-155-195-23.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:36 stassats: Actually, I do have a real keyboard. www.typematrix.com ;P (with lots of remappings so I can use modifiers in any combination with my thumbs) 21:22:49 in my part of eroupe, we use us-qwerty 21:23:06 err... is that different from Qwerty? 21:23:09 And the linux dvorak layout. 21:23:26 us querty is best querty 21:23:32 also only french europe uses azerty i think 21:23:51 I didn't know there were multiple Qwerty's =p 21:23:53 Landr: in germany? 21:24:23 hmm, making two structs with the same :CONC-NAME and some of the slots is not very kosher, is it now? 21:24:28 Jesdisciple: there are many different qwerty variants 21:24:29 germany uses querty 21:24:36 ok 21:24:36 querty? qwerty 21:24:49 that is, the shared slots are all at the beginning and have the same order 21:25:14 is there anything to say the code will work, or is the compiler free to do things that will land me in trouble? 21:25:21 is using :include not an option? 21:25:55 or rather, if you find yourself in requiring such things, why not use classes? 21:26:09 where you'd get real inheritance 21:26:33 (or prototypes) 21:27:03 Asgeir [~asgeir@tri59-1-82-233-201-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:14 stassats: because it's a lot of simple <3 floats> <5 floats> data lines, which I'll need to process quickly 21:27:38 -!- faux [~user@c-219c70d5.035-128-67626713.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:49 stassats: isn't :include only defined to have an effect for (:type list) or (:type vector) structs? 21:28:09 not at all 21:28:50 aha, cool 21:29:05 hi! is there any way to specialize a generic function on atoms ? (defmethod foo ((bar atom)...)) doesnt work because atom isn't a type specifier, but is there a way to go throught that ? 21:29:30 methods aren't specialized on types, but on classes 21:29:52 and atom is only a type 21:29:58 yes, sorry. it doesn't work because atom isn't a class. 21:30:42 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-27-243.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:30:44 well, list is a class 21:30:52 so you can specialize on LIST and on T 21:31:18 or CONS and T depending how you want NIL treated. 21:32:12 I want to treat nil separately. thus I should use cons, isn't it ? 21:32:43 Yes. You could do CONS, NULL, and T for a tripartite dispatch. 21:33:48 ok. therefore I must specialize on t for atoms, on null for the nil case, and on cons for the other cases 21:34:15 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.56.48] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:34:20 Yup. 21:34:33 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-196-2-122-200.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:34:59 -!- Bronsa [~Bronsa@host219-181-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: e niente] 21:35:05 stassats, thanks much for the help :) 21:35:19 thanks a lot :D 21:35:34 tic: you're welcome 21:36:51 Asgeir: check out filtered functions (http://p-cos.blogspot.com/2009/12/filtered-functions.html) if you find yourself doing a lot of sub-dispatch inside the T variant 21:37:01 mascotte [~mascotte_@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-23-249.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:37:44 -!- splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: Copywight 2007 Elmer Fudd. All wights wesewved.] 21:37:58 thanks :D 21:40:24 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: have a good day everyone] 21:41:01 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:41:49 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:31 in SLIME, is there anything like Python's _ to say you want the previous evaluation's result? 21:46:45 * 21:47:01 I thought I recalled such a thing - thanks 21:47:15 If another REPL has it, SLIME definitely does ;) 21:47:47 *, **, and *** 21:48:38 well, Python's shell is kind of like a REPL... iirc it was even inspired by Lips, but still ;) 21:48:46 Lisp* lol 21:48:48 You might also find /, //, ///, +, ++, +++, and - to be of interest. 21:48:58 PHP and Perl have the best REPLs ever 21:49:47 kuffaar: I'm surprised at that statement. What do they do better than the Slime REPL? 21:49:47 I never tried PHP's shell, and tbh I'm not very attracted to Perl from looking at the syntax 21:49:49 anon_ [~anon@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 21:50:21 Hexstream it was a joke 21:50:36 The PHP one is atrocious and Perl has nothing I'd consider a legitimate REPL by default, I think 21:50:44 There's a legion of "REPLs" on CPAN though 21:50:48 kuffaar: um, Perl doesn't even have a REPL... except Devel::REPL and Eval::Clean (which is still wip) 21:50:48 kuffaar: Ah, ok. 21:50:50 And yeah, I'm not a fan of Perl either 21:50:59 Eval::Clean is going to be awesome when that ships 21:52:15 didn't somebody prove it's impossible to make a fully-working REPL for perl? 21:52:34 Only if you use some narrow sense of REPL 21:52:36 you can make something remarkably close, but nothing that actually supports the whole of perl 21:53:27 mathrick: I'd love to see that, seeing as I sat with a bunch of perl coders over gsoc who were on the edge of a complete solution to what could implement a great repl 21:53:40 that didn't mean to come accross so arrogantly either :) 21:53:41 seems like only a dependence on newlines could cause that, and look at Python 21:54:39 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B023774.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:24 -!- xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db84c6c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: xraycat] 22:04:09 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff967e.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 22:07:52 -!- cheez [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:16 cheez [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:03 symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:49 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:10:58 -!- anon_ [~anon@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has left #lisp 22:12:26 s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 22:13:06 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:13:17 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:13:39 Gaah! I can't believe I used to be a professional Java programmer. It makes me want to gouge my eyes out now. 22:13:54 moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-38-44.w92-156.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:14:18 gigamonkey: I'm a future professional Java programmer 22:14:31 gigamonkey: is there a new cause for this feeling? 22:14:47 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:14:54 kuffaar: when is the wake, then? 22:15:04 *moore33* waves to beach. 22:15:08 The wake? What do you mean? 22:15:34 About 1.5 years from now 22:15:36 kuffaar: it's the traditional event on a funeral 22:15:51 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 22:15:58 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.63.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:16:07 Not familiar with that 22:16:23 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:16:25 Funerals are silly anyways, just harvest their organs and burn them and throw them in the trash or something 22:17:08 reminds me of the Klingons =p 22:17:12 kuffaar: The funeral is not for the deceased, it's for the living. 22:17:42 and yes, funerals are for the living. 22:17:44 It's a silly ritual to me, and I've been to several funerals 22:17:50 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.142.129] has joined #lisp 22:17:53 Funerals are a waste of money, they are a disgusting industry 22:18:28 kuffaar: It's wildly off-topic in any case. 22:18:31 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:18:34 kuffaar: depends how they are done. IMHO they should be an occassion to reconnect with family/friends, remember the deceased and be merry. Anyway, OT :D 22:19:00 *p_l|backup* makes a note to self to arrange for an orgy to be part of his funeral. 22:19:03 "let's all talk about how great he was, even though he really wasn't... oh, there'll be cake" 22:19:47 the cake is a lie 22:20:16 -!- brodo_ [~brodo@p5B023774.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: brodo_] 22:20:17 *Landr* stabs Jesdisciple 22:20:19 Jesdisciple: it's not a lie. It is, however, "one time" thing. You won't survive. 22:20:27 lol 22:20:35 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:20:54 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:21:14 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B023774.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:31 -!- Asgeir [~asgeir@tri59-1-82-233-201-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: mi tawa!] 22:22:40 tsuru: just looking at some Java code for Code Quarterly. 22:22:52 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 22:23:01 timack [~tim@hlfx64-1-164.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 22:23:07 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx64-1-164.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 22:23:32 The braces! The goggles do nothing! 22:23:37 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:24:24 /me stares at Hexstream wondering whether that was an allusion or a typo. 22:24:30 space fail 22:24:39 Simpsons reference, nevermind. 22:24:49 aha 22:25:04 I don't have a TV and don't like that show much anyway =p 22:25:26 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 22:25:57 I keep wondering how long it might take for the TV to be totally absorbed into the Internet. 22:26:35 Fisher [~lorenzo@net-93-71-247-152.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 22:26:37 hi 22:26:42 yellow 22:26:46 At this rate? Not very long. 22:27:16 well, I imagine most or all of the current generations might have to die off first. 22:27:31 This can be arranged 22:27:33 *ocharles* rubs hands 22:27:34 lol 22:27:50 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:28:08 I would like to learn lisp, can you raccomend me a good book? 22:28:13 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci] 22:28:18 practical common lisp 22:28:20 land of lisp 22:28:21 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html 22:28:31 well, that's my current chapter anyway 22:28:31 mmh 22:28:34 both great starting books 22:29:11 And the other of at least one is in da house... 22:29:12 PCL gets a bit slow in the middle mind, LoL might have a better flow. Oddly I finished all my notes on the stuff in PCL, but now I've lost the energy to finish the practicals :) 22:29:19 after PCL I'm on to http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/clos-tutorial/index.html 22:29:32 I'm on to On Lisp then Let Over Lambda next :) 22:29:42 but that clos tutorial looks nice, thanks! 22:29:54 =) 22:30:13 maybe, I'll buy Land of Lisp 22:30:34 PCL is free, maybe you want to try a few chapters of that to get your feet wet? 22:30:46 but hey, pumping money into Lisp is good with me ;) 22:31:14 *gigamonkey* also likes people pumping money into Lisp, especially to Lisp authors. 22:31:15 I found Lanf of Lisp on torrent 22:31:20 :D 22:32:01 Fisher: That's pretty rude. 22:32:15 hrmn 22:32:37 lol 22:32:56 sounds like a cheap copy anyway tho... they even got the title wrong 22:32:57 If it's a good book 22:33:01 i'll buy it 22:33:06 *ocharles* can't wait til Fisher puts years into some work so he can rip it off for free too 22:33:22 Fisher: That's not really how it works. 22:35:28 *Krystof* waves to moore33 22:35:44 Xach, you're right 22:35:59 Krsytof: Hey! I was wondering whether to search for C, K, or X :) 22:36:55 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-219-114.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:37:19 C-x k? 22:37:21 Here in italy, a lot of people download books 22:37:45 the market for lisp books is small. 22:37:58 Jesdisciple: Don't want to do that to Krystof... 22:38:01 the people who read lisp books should actively encourage their authors with money. 22:38:28 moore33: why not? 22:38:35 Has anyone done any work trying to implement traits/roles alongside CLOS? 22:38:53 imo the author has a right to set the price regardless of market size, and that is why we have this DRM mess looming 22:39:11 or is it not really necessary with the generic functions offered? 22:39:19 Jesdisciple: I don't want to kill-buffer when I've just arrived. 22:39:21 if ppl didn't have that habit the crop's wouldn't have a legitimate excuse for DRM 22:39:52 moore33: nah, I wasn't thinking of the channel... 22:40:06 s/crop's/corp's 22:40:22 ocharles: you mean... mixins? 22:40:29 ocharles: I don't even know what traits and roles are 22:40:33 sykopomp: not quite 22:40:46 traits are more than just mixins, they specify requirements and stuff too 22:40:50 ocharles: something like ContextL? 22:41:11 ocharles: how do they specify these requirements? 22:41:46 I can give you a Perl/Moose example 22:41:53 or describe here, depends how much time you have :) 22:41:59 and how wiling you are to put up with my terrible examples ;) 22:42:28 But essentially a role is like a mixin in that it has slots and it has methods. But it can also "require" consuming classes to implement other methods 22:42:56 *Jesdisciple* is curious about this exotic paradigm, trying to build a toy language 22:43:00 When you consume a role you also have the choice of aliasing certain methods to another name, or excluding them entirely 22:43:03 Classes don't have methods in CLOS. 22:43:29 Xach: right, which is why I'm wondering if generic methods maybe address all of this 22:44:18 Jesdisciple: http://scg.unibe.ch/archive/papers/Scha03aTraits.pdf is the original paper, it makes for an interesting and quite accesible read 22:44:34 -!- tcr2 [~tcr@213.55.131.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:46 Aren't methods a central part of objects? 22:44:51 idk much about the clos (yet) 22:44:53 alright, thanks 22:45:05 You might want to look at Moose from Perl to see more about it too - http://search.cpan.org/~drolsky/Moose-1.21/lib/Moose/Manual/Roles.pod 22:45:08 jesusabdullah: Not in CLOS. 22:45:09 ocharles: you can make a method that specifies on a class... you can choose which class you specify on 22:45:14 jesusabdullah: No, what if you want to specialize a method on multiple objects? 22:45:24 tsuru: right, I know that much too 22:45:26 I mean, multiple classes. 22:45:27 jesusabdullah: no, Lisp's polymorphism makes functions as members unnecessary 22:45:58 You apply functions to objects externally, then? 22:46:03 yep 22:46:04 Besides, it's perfectly normal to want to define methods for already existing classes that you didn't create yourself. 22:46:10 hmm 22:46:40 I'll probably have more to say about traits/roles/whatever when I actually get round to writing more complicated code (write now I'm just writing algorithms for SPOJ) 22:46:53 But I've found them a really powerful abstraction in other languages 22:47:20 I have a small feeling though that they can replaced with multiple inheritance and generic methods, and method modifiers 22:47:20 Demosthenes [~demo@12.155.211.117] has joined #lisp 22:48:06 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:26 "generic function" is the term. 22:48:39 sorry, my bad there 22:50:01 ocharles: you'll probably want to read Sonya Keene's book 22:51:17 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:21 tsuru: thanks, I haven't seen this one 22:51:34 I have a very old copy of that :) 22:51:35 I only have the art of the metaobject protocol on my list I think 22:53:13 sykopomp: in case you're still active, any tutorial to recommend for Sheeple (or CLOS since the syntaxes are so close) 22:53:17 ? 22:53:34 Jesdisciple: What is this Sheeple I keep hearing you talk about btw? got a link? 22:54:17 http://redmine.sykosomatic.org/documents/1 22:54:35 s/syntaxes/APIs 22:54:52 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 22:55:40 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 22:58:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:58:43 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-27-243.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please!] 22:58:58 Good morning everyone! 22:59:01 I'm building up to Sheeple by way of CLOS so I can use it in my toy language - so far my premise is to fix JavaScript 22:59:04 morning 22:59:25 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:28 *Ralith* pokes sykopomp 22:59:52 beach: Hey beach! 22:59:57 -!- sm` [s@78.157.15.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:00:06 -!- Fisher [~lorenzo@net-93-71-247-152.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:14 sm` [s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 23:00:36 moore33: Hey, haven't seen you for a while. What's up? 23:01:10 beach: I've been pretty busy. I started a company in the fall. Are you outre mer? 23:01:37 Jesdisciple: hrm, interesting. JS's fairly crap prototypical system has turned me away from prototype like systems, but it looks interesting 23:01:40 moore33: Yes, in Vietnam for the next 5 months. 23:01:57 moore33: Is the company working? 23:02:06 beach: You must be loving that :) We'll all have to get together when you return. 23:02:18 ocharles: yeah, and that's not the only annoying thing 23:02:43 beach: So far, yeah. I've been fully engaged doing paying 3D work since the beginning of August. 23:03:10 moore33: Excellent! And now you again have time for #lisp. 23:03:25 beach: I thought I'd look in on my old friends :) 23:03:30 ocharles: I'm eliminating default globals and the necessity of 'var', thinking about block scope, and planning to make the entire language augmentable per prototypes 23:03:37 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.179.253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:18 I'm also trying to decide whether to consolidate prototypes and constructors into a more sane "prototypal class" syntactic sugar or just drop constructors 23:04:25 I might fork it and do both 23:04:33 moore33: programmatic 3D or operator/art 3D? 23:04:33 beach: How's your Vietnamese coming along? 23:04:33 Jesdisciple: interesting 23:04:35 good luck :) 23:04:38 thx 23:04:59 tsuru: programmatic. I've set myself up as a consultant for OpenGL and OpenSceneGraph. 23:05:26 moore33: My vocabulary is pretty good, but given a new dialect with partly new words, it is hard to understand what people say. I can make myself understood though. 23:05:46 beach: Are there several dialects there? 23:06:06 moore33: Yes, two big ones, north and south. The middle is different again. 23:06:11 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-92-218.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:06:58 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:06:58 moore33: I happen to have a Vietnamese hardware geek friend on transfer to the US for college in case you'd like me to mention your quest 23:07:34 Jesdisciple: My quest? 23:07:40 to learn the language 23:07:46 *moore33* points to beach 23:08:00 *Jesdisciple* scrolls up 23:08:04 o *sheepish* 23:08:15 beach, see above 23:08:19 Jesdisciple: beach is in Vietnam, I'm waiting for him to return to Bordeaux :) 23:08:36 ah, then s/he has plenty of folks to chat with 23:08:52 beach what languages did you know prior to learning Vietnamese? 23:08:54 indeed 23:08:57 Any tonal ones? 23:09:16 Jesdisciple: no tutorial I can think of right now. I've stopped using Sheeple or maintaining it, since about a year ago. 23:09:31 ? any particular reason? 23:09:31 sykopomp: why ? 23:10:13 kuffaar: Swedish, English, German, French. 23:10:21 fe[nl]ix: I guess it's complicated. The biggest part is that I didn't see as big of a benefit in Sheeple, compared to CLOS. 23:10:35 Some things are nicer, I guess. 23:10:50 kuffaar: No tonal ones. But I have a good ear for music. 23:11:15 well, I think it will at least make my toy language easier to write - prototypes are a requirement for it 23:11:26 you should look at Io. 23:11:27 xan_ [~xan@26.246.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:34 alright, thanks 23:11:43 iwillig [~iwillig@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:00 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-158-39.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:12:02 and then you can look at Slate for the multiple dispatch bit. 23:12:46 as an aside, Io also happens to have fexprs. :) 23:12:53 'nice' ones. 23:12:56 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:13:12 moore33: Any Lisp hacking for you nowadays? 23:13:55 beach: Not in a long time, sigh. You wouldn't believe the depths I've sunk to, installing Windows 7 and all :) 23:14:00 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.155.211.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:14:18 adamvh [~adamvh@pool-173-69-160-222.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:19 moore33: I pity you! :) 23:14:32 aww, I was hoping Io was a Lisp lib 23:14:39 beach: It was actually for an interesting project. 23:15:31 beach: I know you looked a lot at Metafont / Metapost for GSharp... have you looked at asymptote at all? It's kind of like a 3D Metapost. 23:15:45 Jesdisciple: Io is pretty lispy :) 23:15:52 Including all the linear equation and constraints stuff. 23:15:53 fsvo lispy. 23:16:05 moore33: I haven't looked at it, no. Sounds interesting. 23:16:10 Hello all. Any Clozure Common Lisp / cocoa users out there? 23:16:38 beach:http://asymptote.sourceforge.net/ 23:16:41 adamvh: Yes  and there's also #ccl, which is quieter, but more focused. 23:16:45 moore33: Polytopes? 23:17:45 -!- jikanter [~jikanter@66.146.192.29] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:18:08 sellout: Offhand, do you know whether / how it is possible to load custom objective-C classes into CLL? 23:18:09 Jesdisciple: If you want to play with a much simpler prototype object system for CL, there's KR and Proton. 23:18:11 -!- cheez [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:18:13 jesusabdullah: I think they found one of those in my butt :) Just kidding. asymptote is a little language for doing 3D drawings and diagrams, mostly line art. It's tightly integrated with LaTeX. 23:18:18 Both of which are single-file implementations. 23:18:31 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:38 alright 23:18:46 They don't support multiple dispatch, and method calls are not 'integrated' into the language, the way CLOS/Sheeple do it. 23:18:47 just not sure I wanna learn another syntax 23:19:00 sellout: As in I have a .h / .m pair which I would like to use from CCL 23:19:02 KR and Proton are both CL libraries. 23:19:10 I think at least proton is ql-installable? 23:19:26 adamvh: You can  I think you need to make interface files somehow, but I haven't done that before. I just write my Cocoa classes in CL. 23:19:53 -!- jdz [~jdz@host12-105-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:19:54 alright - I'll have a look 23:20:02 not sure I need either of the omitted features 23:20:14 Is there anything specific you're trying to figure out about prototype systems? 23:20:24 sellout: I do too, but these happen to be Obj-C wrappers over some gnarly deprecated Carbon APIs 23:20:33 not sure what multiple dispatch is, and I imagine my methods will have foreign semantics to any language I choose 23:20:37 sellout: I'll try #ccl 23:20:47 moore33: Asymptote looks good! 23:20:58 sykopomp: my current premise is to fix JavaScript 23:21:10 Jesdisciple: Fix what? 23:21:15 What's wrong with JavaScript? 23:21:42 copied from above: I'm eliminating default globals and the necessity of 'var', thinking about block scope, and planning to make the entire language augmentable per prototypes 23:21:42 I'm also trying to decide whether to consolidate prototypes and constructors into a more sane "prototypal class" syntactic sugar or just drop constructors 23:21:51 beach: I haven't gotten too far with it, but I want to use it to illustrate a problem I solved involving complicated rotations. 23:22:04 Are prtotypes how js does objects? 23:22:11 or I might fork the project and do both 23:22:17 I'm learning new words today 23:22:43 ow8 23:22:45 herp derp 23:22:46 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:51 moore33: "Illustrate" as in writing documentation/presentations? 23:22:58 Jesdisciple: ...then look at Io. 23:23:01 beach: Yes. 23:23:03 Io is a much better JavaScript. 23:23:07 moore33: Nice. 23:23:13 sykopomp: alright, thanks 23:23:19 and it has less syntax than Common Lisp. 23:23:24 I love JavaScript to be honest, but it definitely has its warts 23:23:26 I would say even less syntax than Scheme. 23:23:27 A better javascript? I thought that was CoffeeScript ;) 23:23:36 *jesusabdullah* will have to look into that 23:23:45 beach: I wrote a couple of articles on Open Scene Graph esoterica that generated some interesting contacts. 23:23:53 francogrex [~user@109.130.16.118] has joined #lisp 23:24:07 jesusabdullah: tbh I'm trying to stay away from potential influences atm - after I'm done I'll look into them 23:24:09 Jesdisciple: Io even has fexprs, which fulfill the role of macros, but are much more awesome. :) 23:24:11 moore33: Where do you publish them? 23:24:20 I want to be original in my proof of concept 23:24:29 beach: On my website... with links from my blog, of course. 23:24:36 www.bricoworks.com 23:24:42 Sure, I see. 23:24:51 CoffeeScript probably isn't what you want anyway---it's just javascript with a different syntax 23:25:08 although I specify (pushnew :hunchentoot-no-ssl *features*), it is still trying to compile [package cl+ssl] ! (and failing because no libssl. 23:25:12 The most obvious part being the whitespace thing 23:25:27 beach: I can't see trying to make a living doing that for pay in this day and age... I'm much too slow at it. 23:25:30 jesusabdullah: that's it? Sounds like a waste. 23:25:38 Well, arguably, yeah 23:25:49 Actually, it has some pretty good sugar 23:25:59 but it's not *fundamentally* different 23:26:17 moore33: Doing what? Writing articles? 23:26:26 beach: Yes. 23:27:00 Some people really like the CoffeeScript syntax, but most js devs would rather just write javascript, since Coffee doesn't really give them any fundamentally new language constructs 23:27:04 moore33: I think that requires an academic salary to "make money". 23:27:08 except maybe a built-in object system 23:27:10 :/ 23:27:13 beach: I need to head off to sleep. Is Kathleen there too? 23:28:40 moore33: She was, but she left a week ago. Now she is back in Bx. Sleep well! 23:29:00 beach: Thanks! It was nice to bump into you. 23:29:11 -!- moore33 [~moore@ABordeaux-153-1-38-44.w92-156.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:29:11 moore33: You too! 23:29:14 jesusabdullah: javascript already has an object system built into it. 23:29:15 :) 23:29:31 it just doesn't have macros, so you can't expand it in a library. 23:30:51 By object system, I meant traditional-style classes 23:30:58 a la ruby, python 23:31:23 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff967e.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:31:28 jesusabdullah: That's not how the term is traditionally used. 23:32:03 jesusabdullah: Prototype-based object systems are also called object systems. 23:33:33 -!- javuchi [~noname@105.Red-95-123-193.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4] 23:35:00 -!- mascotte [~mascotte_@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-23-249.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 23:35:21 If you have decent support for prototype OO, why would you ever want to devolve into class-based OO? 23:35:26 23:35:52 mascotte [mascotte__@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-23-249.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:35:52 -!- mascotte [mascotte__@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-23-249.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:07 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:36:56 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:59 well in my case, my "prototypal class" idea maintains the semantics of JS constructors so the same factory function can be called on extensions of a prototype every time it is extended 23:37:29 Jesdisciple: Sheeple does that. Io does that. 23:37:33 so it can act as either or both systems 23:37:42 this is not a class vs prototype issue. 23:37:50 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:38:13 from what I have seen, no factory function is consistently called in Sheeple 23:38:23 I thought it was a simple cloning 23:38:28 init-object and family. 23:38:53 ...not that I remember exactly what situations each one was called in off the top of my head. 23:39:17 Io has a similar initialize-object method that is called after cloning. 23:39:25 but it seems like given those semantics, classes are a fairly natural conclusion - among others 23:39:52 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:40:42 classes are essentially a ridgid application of prototypes imo 23:40:50 yes. 23:41:05 rigid* 23:41:39 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-227.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:41:47 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@c-98-210-227-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:43:26 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-189-28.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:44:14 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:45:41 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-227.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:46:28 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:46:36 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A7F26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:04 -!- brodo_ [~brodo@p5B023774.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:50:39 -!- pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:52:12 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:30 wanderingelf [4817e03d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.23.224.61] has joined #lisp 23:53:30 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-227.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:54:15 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.16.118] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:05 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:57:57 *Jesdisciple* goes to eat