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Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:16:58 k04n [~kn@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:02 -!- petercoulton_ [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:17:05 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:21:10 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E99A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:42 -!- sm` [s@78.157.15.219] has quit [] 02:23:19 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:03 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:29:08 -!- osoleve [~osoleve@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:29:46 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:29:56 nuntius [~nuntius@pool-71-162-117-166.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:23 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:34:00 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[~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:28 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-87-89-40.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:44 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-87-89-40.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:08:01 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:08:21 k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:01 -!- k04n [~kn@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 03:13:39 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:17:27 ephcon [~user@ppp-71-139-25-220.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:27 hey all, it looks like is down. Does anybody know what is going on? 03:21:17 -!- Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21:24 it's down down down... 03:22:03 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:24:10 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:25:28 Sluggo [~user@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:38 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 03:28:57 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:30:22 -!- jimrthy_ [~jimrthy@ip68-13-249-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has left #lisp 03:30:53 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:32:19 down for me 03:33:42 -!- ifaria [~user@222.20.216.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:50 ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has joined #lisp 03:34:27 -!- astoon 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[~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:46:31 dRbiG [p@irc.kaer.tk] has joined #lisp 07:47:34 withate [~pincode@cpc1-hudd10-2-0-cust707.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:47:47 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-218-226.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:47:54 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:48:10 biTT [~frinnn@i59F6333A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:48:12 good morning 07:49:34 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:57:59 yan_ [~asym@srtd.org] has joined #lisp 08:01:00 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:16 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:05:07 Is nobody going to help antoszka? 08:05:37 what's his problem? 08:10:02 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:11:54 eleasah 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[~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:28 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.207] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:34:00 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:44 stassats: http://rottyforge.yi.org/irclogs/freenode/%23lisp/2011-01-13/#e106 08:34:49 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:35:07 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 08:35:07 Actually I'm mildly interested too. 08:35:36 just look how C-c C-c is implemented in slime 08:36:27 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-237.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo_] 08:36:48 -!- withate [~pincode@cpc1-hudd10-2-0-cust707.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:39:13 subz0 [~pincode@cpc1-hudd10-2-0-cust707.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:21 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 08:40:30 withate [~pincode@cpc1-hudd10-2-0-cust707.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:51 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-oyzubndrhwefdiae] has joined #lisp 08:42:57 -_- 08:43:01 antoszka: 08:43:52 -!- subz0 [~pincode@cpc1-hudd10-2-0-cust707.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:44:37 -!- eleasah [~eleasah@ip208-103-38-36.dyn.mintel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:45:18 -!- withate [~pincode@cpc1-hudd10-2-0-cust707.4-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:47:01 stassats: There are two versions. The first one sends sigint. I hve no idea why woldn't it work with (handler-case (foo) (SB-SYS:INTERACTIVE-INTERRUPT () (bar))) or (sb-sys:enable-interrupt sb-posix:sigint ...) 08:47:47 The second one ends with (slime-send `(:emacs-interrupt ,thread)) 08:48:13 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:50:38 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:52:49 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:55:29 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:56:18 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:58:10 -!- _danb_ [~yaaic@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org] 09:00:01 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:01:44 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:03:35 -!- ^flying-high^ is now known as sea4ever 09:03:39 -!- sea4ever 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[~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:48 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48:28 Hello beach. 10:49:27 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:50:24 -!- ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:50:35 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E011.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52:14 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:54:58 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 10:56:23 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:59:47 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:00:15 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:08 hemanth [~hemanth@203.187.255.178] has joined #lisp 11:01:55 I heard, real programmers use lisp, just wanted to see how "real" programmers talk, i come from the land of py :) 11:02:20 (floatp 'lisp) 11:02:20 NIL 11:02:23 not very real. 11:02:25 hemanth: Welcome. There is not much activity right now, but it might pick up. 11:02:59 krl [~krl@rymdkoloni.se] has joined #lisp 11:03:03 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:03:11 beach, kool, thanks for greeting me :) how does one greet in lips 11:03:14 **lisp 11:03:53 (when (decent-person-p noob) 'oh-hi) 11:04:08 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-78-13-251-76.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:04:09 hemanth: Don't know. Maybe (print "hello world!"). 11:04:25 (defun irc-greet (&optional (user *last-user-who-chatted*)) (send user 'oh-hi)) 11:04:33 beach, ha ha :) 11:05:38 hemanth: Do you intend to learn Lisp? 11:05:40 Hun, (defun greet-back (&must (user *last-user-who-greeted*)) (send user 'howdy')) 11:06:21 that's invalid. &must isn't defined. if the parameter is needed, just don't add any & :) 11:07:12 good day everyone 11:07:15 hi Blkt :) 11:07:18 and don't add the second '. ' does something quite different from what you might be used to 11:07:21 hi fe[nl]ix 11:08:27 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:09:04 Hun, kool this is a fun way to learn it 11:09:49 Hun: you should've used realp, not floatp 11:10:26 oh cool. didn't know realp existed. 11:10:58 beach, yes i do :) 11:10:59 in lisp, integers are real 11:11:06 is there a lisp bot here? 11:11:16 there is, but it's on vacation 11:12:01 stassats, how long? :) 11:12:19 -!- jonte [~jonte@oiuvbty.ght.sgsnet.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:12:47 arbitrarily 11:13:47 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 11:18:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:18:22 -!- The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has left #lisp 11:24:06 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:24:11 "Why would anyone use a Lisp Machine? It is expensive and difficult to learn, true, but there must be a reason, since so many of them are being sold." 11:24:15 petercoulton_ [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:25:04 core i7 is a decent Lisp Machine 11:26:32 "In short, use of the Lisp Machine simplifies design and speeds coding and correction, and facilitates experiments in both user interfaces and programming methods." 11:26:33 stassats,will it greet once back? 11:27:26 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:27:32 hemanth: Minion (the bot) can be a bit cranky.n 11:27:55 s/n// 11:28:21 quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:47 hemanth: muttered something about 'foolish meat sacks' and 'Skynet' just before it left last time... 11:29:07 beach, triggers are? 11:29:08 xiackok [~Administr@94.54.81.99] has joined #lisp 11:29:15 splittist, ha ha is it! :) 11:29:47 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.132.189] has joined #lisp 11:31:11 hemanth: When minion is here, you address it like any other #lisp participant, so "minion: " 11:31:44 beach, nice, me on GNU/Linux (ubuntu) trying to bring up LISP 11:32:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:20 hemanth: Go to sbcl.sourceforge.net and download a binary. 11:32:30 MrSandwich [~user@c114-76-49-123.eburwd4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:32:34 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:32:41 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:32:44 hemanth: LISP in all caps is long deprecated. Nowadays we say Lisp. 11:32:59 okies 11:33:17 hemanth: Go to Synaptic and search for sbcl, it will be easier, methinks. 11:33:45 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:34:11 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 11:34:13 valium97582, kool 11:34:17 *hemanth* does a sudo apt-get install sbcl 11:36:09 valium97582: that's not particularly good advice. 11:36:41 lichtblau: why so? 11:37:10 You can get SBCL from various Linux distributions, of course, but their version is usually outdated, and comes with modifications. 11:37:28 If you want help with your Lisp from #lisp, better get it directly from http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html. 11:37:30 and with c-l-c 11:37:36 *stassats* shivers 11:37:50 i can get sbcl-1.0.45-source.tar.bz2 and do a ./configure && make && sudo make install also 11:38:18 you need sbcl to build sbcl 11:39:17 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:46 doing apt-get install sbcl is ok-ish, if you don't intend to become a lisper 11:40:22 stassats, now should i remove sblc that was installed via apt-get ? 11:40:31 stassats: or he can use that sbcl to build sbcl from source 11:40:31 stassats: ?? 11:40:52 stassats: Is "emerge sbcl" and reading compile logs enough? :) 11:40:57 fe[nl]ix: ¿¿ 11:41:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:41:29 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:43:14 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.18.248] has joined #lisp 11:44:46 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:47:57 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:54:01 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 11:55:48 -!- ephcon [~user@ppp-71-139-25-220.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:55:59 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:26 -!- sea4ever [cdf4969b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.205.244.150.155] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:58:32 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:26 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 12:00:26 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:00:28 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 12:00:50 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:00:53 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:00:53 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01:08 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:01:53 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:02:22 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 12:05:15 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:05:41 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:38 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:06:47 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:11:37 stassats, make-host-1.sh: 31: sbcl: not found 12:12:58 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:13:48 hemanth: What are you trying to do? 12:15:38 -!- nowhereman is now known as nowhere_man 12:16:22 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish!] 12:17:28 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-4-60.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:17:50 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-253.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:18:36 beach,make on the source 12:19:07 hemanth: Why do you want to make the source. Is there no binary distribution that works for you? 12:19:36 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-10-178.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:19:55 hemanth: And did you read what stassats said, that compiler SBCL requires SBCL to be installed? 12:21:13 got sbcl-1.0.45 zip 12:21:31 hemanth: Is that the source? 12:21:37 o ya read it 12:21:46 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:21:56 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-253.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:22:30 hemanth: What he meant that in order to compile SBCL you need to have a *COMPILED* version of SBCL already installed. If all you have is the source, you have a chicken-and-egg problem. 12:23:14 [insert fixes to make that uttering grammatical] 12:23:30 so i need the binary to compile the source ? 12:23:59 i undid all apt-get stuff, making a fresh install 12:24:06 hemanth: Yes, but since you then already have the binary, you don't need the source, so do what I suggested an hour or so ago, go find the binary distribution and install it. 12:24:27 pmurias [~pawel@wifi.ii.uni.wroc.pl] has joined #lisp 12:25:32 hemanth: The only reason I can think of for compiling from source would be if the existing binary was build with some parameters that you don't like. But I don't think you will run into such a problem for the foreseeable future. 12:25:43 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2E34.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:25:48 hemanth: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/sbcl/sbcl-1.0.45-x86-linux-binary.tar.bz2 or http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/sbcl/sbcl-1.0.45-x86-64-linux-binary.tar.bz2 12:26:20 -!- MrSandwich [~user@c114-76-49-123.eburwd4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:26:24 kool 12:26:42 me on x86 12:26:43 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.162.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:27:00 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.57.16.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:27:02 great. so get the first one. 12:27:36 yup downloading 12:27:41 valium97582 [~daniel@187.57.24.135] has joined #lisp 12:28:56 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:29:24 H4ns [~user@pD4B9E011.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:32 *hemanth* is on a shared line, the download is pretty fast <.< 12:30:11 -!- evilnjan is now known as njan 12:32:18 got the code 12:32:49 SBCL has been installed: binary /usr/local/bin/sbcl core and contribs in /usr/local/lib/sbcl/ :) 12:33:19 -!- quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:33:20 now its about getting started :) 12:33:43 *(print "hello world!") 12:33:55 hemanth: The next thing to do is to install Quicklisp and go get SLIME for Emacs according to its instructions. 12:33:56 printed hello world twice 12:34:09 One print, one return value? 12:34:17 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:34:26 hemanth: Once because you explicitly asked it to, once because you are in a read-evel-PRINT loop. 12:34:27 The REPL prints what it returns 12:34:32 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.162.169] has joined #lisp 12:34:44 evaluate* 12:34:45 o! ok :) 12:35:08 er, yeah, "eval" 12:37:26 okies now doing (quicklisp-quickstart:install) 12:38:17 (ql:system-apropos "vecto") also ? 12:38:48 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:42:03 WonTu [~WonTu@p57B5411A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:17 -!- WonTu [~WonTu@p57B5411A.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 12:43:13 hugod_ [~hugod@76.66.191.181] has joined #lisp 12:43:13 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442869.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:13 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 12:43:56 did that, will get SLIME for emacs also 12:44:01 after which? 12:44:07 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:44:42 That should be it in order to start hacking. You will probably want to install more libraries using Quicklisp later when you discover you need them. 12:46:47 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 12:49:59 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 12:50:18 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-116-183.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:38 -!- pmurias [~pawel@wifi.ii.uni.wroc.pl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:50:47 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.18.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:51:50 -!- petercoulton_ [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:51:54 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.18.248] has joined #lisp 12:52:17 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:52:41 ok :) 12:52:56 was looking into http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 12:53:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:55:28 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.193.56] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 12:56:00 is there a urllib also? 12:56:48 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:03 probably. 12:59:39 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:00:41 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:04:43 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:20 valium97682 [~daniel@187.35.238.128] has joined #lisp 13:09:22 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.57.24.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:10:10 hemanth: it is called 'puri' 13:10:39 H4ns, okies will check that out 13:10:52 *hemanth* is going out for a breather 13:10:58 xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db86956.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:43 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.132.189] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 13:13:48 -!- valium97682 is now known as valium97582 13:15:02 -!- Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:15:10 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:16:12 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:20:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:22:37 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:22:50 -!- splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:26 splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:28:22 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:29:45 -!- xiackok [~Administr@94.54.81.99] has left #lisp 13:29:47 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:30:07 acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has joined #lisp 13:31:57 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:12 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.162.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:33:21 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.132.189] has joined #lisp 13:33:23 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.132.189] has quit [Client Quit] 13:35:02 -!- thmzlt [~thomaz@24-217-48-63.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:36:23 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:38:44 -!- csmax_ [~max@p5DE8C6F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:39:09 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:40:35 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:40:45 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 13:41:07 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-20-142.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:43:17 I was looking at some codes I have used (for validation/risk management) and saw some things that don't make me feel very comfortable (encode-universal-time 0 0 10 31 02 2010) , went through without errors (ok it's according to specs but specs are not above comon sense) 13:43:26 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-4-60.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:44:10 francogrex: what is your problem with that encode-universal-time invocation? 13:45:01 31 February? 13:45:27 francogrex: ah. now that you say that :) 13:45:51 francogrex: so your problem is that you're working with code that has obvious errors? 13:46:25 not the code per se, but expected to be aletrted somehow that the date doesn't exist 13:47:05 francogrex: the spec does not specify that any conditions are signalled from encode-universal-time, apparently. 13:48:18 well at least some implementations put a 31 day restriction; but others don't like (encode-universal-time 0 0 10 37 02 2010) would also go down very nicely in some 13:49:17 francogrex: as the spec does not say that error checking on the input values should be performed, you'll probably not find it easy to convince implementors to change their implementation. 13:50:19 well, according to 25.1.4.1, the upper limit of the date depends on the year and month... 13:51:41 jdz: what i mean to say is that if he needs validity checking, he'll have to implement it himself in a - supposedly - wrapper function. 13:51:41 francogrex: you are doing date manipulations yourself? 13:51:43 H4ns: I guess I have to be a little more careful 13:52:38 i was born on 31 February, you insensitive clod! 13:52:42 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:53:43 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-20-134.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 13:53:53 tfb [~tfb@92.41.28.30.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:54:02 jdz: yes I did some in the past, I was just verifying codes and data (validation) 13:59:36 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:04:30 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-141-230.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:05:28 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 14:05:28 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 14:05:28 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 14:05:39 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:05:50 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:23 -!- nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:49 nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 14:10:13 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-220-165.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:11:04 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-128-192.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:27 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:13:17 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:32 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:14:59 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:19:02 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.134.195] has joined #lisp 14:20:00 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:36 HET2 [~diman@217.75.64.166] has joined #lisp 14:23:00 FaceFox [~asdfaaa@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:02 -!- mephist__ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:28:32 kdr2 [~kdr2@123.122.98.94] has joined #lisp 14:28:32 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.134.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:28:52 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.134.195] has joined #lisp 14:33:30 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:33:51 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:35:28 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:40:32 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:41 francogrex: It may be that encode-universal-time is more useful when liberal. The C time conversion routines allow days outside the range of a given month too. 14:41:45 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 14:42:36 its liberalness is implementation-dependent, so it's useless 14:42:46 sounds reasonable -- encoding a date like februray 27 + 5 days is easy 14:43:35 stassats: ... if you care about portable code. 14:43:57 reb`: or sane 14:44:13 and implementation may change its behaviour in the future 14:46:01 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:33 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:25 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 14:48:30 -!- HET2 [~diman@217.75.64.166] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:49:22 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-116-183.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:50:07 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.238.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:51:04 -!- kdr2 [~kdr2@123.122.98.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:53:01 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:53:28 valium97582 [~daniel@187.74.35.156] has joined #lisp 14:53:58 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-119-103.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:54:01 tfb_ [~tfb@92.41.33.70.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:54:02 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.28.30.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:54:07 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 14:54:20 sunwukong [~vukung@t1.iit.bme.hu] has joined #lisp 14:55:02 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-tbtxjwgpgdozchrn] has quit [Quit: (bye)] 14:55:36 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 14:56:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 15:00:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:04:32 naryl: Thanks, i'll think about it. 15:04:46 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 15:05:12 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-20-134.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:06:03 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 15:07:05 kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.97] has joined #lisp 15:07:05 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.97] has quit [Changing host] 15:07:05 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:07:25 pankajm [~pankajm@202.3.77.219] has joined #lisp 15:07:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:27 -!- easyE [dxlvJa6F9l@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07:38 how do i create 2 dimensional lists in lisp? 15:07:56 you just list a list I think 15:08:21 (list (list 1 2) (list 3 4)) 15:08:54 kbdvdr [~co1n@210-89-227-75.ap-w02.canvas.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:09:02 Blkt: i wanted to implement a matrix as list of lists 15:09:06 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:13 say a[20][20] 15:09:14 pankajm: do you come from Python? 15:09:18 pankajm: there aren't any. you can have lists of lists. that is not a good structure for a matrix, usually. 15:09:22 pankajm: are you sure? that'll be rather slow 15:09:31 pankajm: a two-dimensional array would probably be better suited. 15:09:37 I ran across that at a job once 15:09:42 my first CL job, actually 15:10:01 H4ns: so i should do (setf a make-array 20 20) 15:10:09 converting the code to a 2d array improved speed by a factor of 600 or so 15:10:19 pankajm: add a few parentheses, but yes. 15:10:30 until your array would contain 1billion rows and columns 15:10:34 but the manipulation of arrray using (aref a i j) seems too cumbersome..is there any other way? 15:10:46 after 1 billion you switch to lists... 15:10:59 pankajm: that is the way. lists harder to work with. 15:11:06 pankajm: row-major-aref 15:11:20 pankajm: how would you rather manipulate arrays? 15:11:29 *Xach* seconds dlowe's question 15:11:29 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:11:43 err, matrix rather 15:11:43 i'd outsource it 15:12:49 dlowe: actually coming from python , it seems too lenghty this way 15:12:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-231-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:13:15 dlowe: but i hope i will get used to the lisp way pretty soon 15:13:17 pankajm: what would you prefer to write in lisp if you want to access the element indexed by i and j in object a? 15:13:35 pankajm: CL isn't known for being syntactically terse :) 15:13:44 that's a Good Thing 15:13:47 Would you write less if "a" was a list? 15:14:04 there are advanced ways of providing your own syntax, but most people don't use them often 15:14:08 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.134.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:14:08 Xach: hmm..i get the point 15:14:27 Xach: i am just starting off with lisp for my AI course in CS 15:14:45 that's the saddest way to learn lisp, imho 15:15:16 Xach: the instructor has given us the option to do it in both python and lisp , but i am teaching myself lisp coz i heard many gr8 things abt it 15:15:32 dlowe: y do u say so? 15:16:06 pankajm: A lot of the misconceptions about CL comes from AI courses, I've noticed. Like that it's only interpreted or that it only has lists as a datatype. 15:16:37 that's due to teachers, not CL and AI themselves 15:16:43 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:48 No, I'm not blaming CL or AI 15:16:55 I know, I know 15:16:56 or teachers 15:17:07 dlowe: do they really say it only has lists? I mean, I always thought it was a joke. 15:17:10 pankajm: then you should know that python's use of the term "list" can be misleading in the context of programming in general 15:17:16 dlowe: i dont have any such misconceptions , they dont teach us lisp here in the course , its upto us to use any language we like , and i chose lisp 15:17:22 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 15:17:26 pankajm: well, that works then :) 15:17:33 dlowe: :) 15:17:53 a lot of programmers I know only took lisp for AI, and it was a miserable experience for them, because they were only learning a subset of what was really out there 15:18:16 and in classic CS style, they were only allowed to use approved constructs 15:18:18 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 15:18:27 dlowe: is there any specifc manual to refer to the special forms of clisp? 15:18:40 murilasso [~murilasso@64.119.157.61] has joined #lisp 15:18:47 PCL has a chapter dedicated to special forms. 15:18:51 I actually find ``(aref a i j)'' a bit easier to type than ``a[i][j]'' 15:18:53 *stassats* uses only ~40% subset of CL 15:19:11 stassats: that seems pretty high, too! 15:19:18 lisp is a family of languages, CL refers to Common Lisp, clisp is a GPL licensed implementation of CL 15:19:41 pankajm: there's the common lisp hyperspec 15:19:48 or rather, 40% of symbols in CL package 15:20:23 but yes, there are people who think lisps only have lists as datatypes 15:20:48 they're hard to uneducate about it, too 15:21:25 dostoyevsky: Me too, but it's (IMHO) a little cumbersome to _read_. 15:21:57 dlowe: I thought that was mostly a joke. 15:22:31 if you look at it in terms of keypresses, a[i][j] has 11 presses and (aref a i j) has 14 15:22:53 with paredit? 15:23:00 no, not with paredit :p 15:23:18 don't think that matters, actually 15:23:21 but can you do an equivalent of (apply #'aref a (list i j))? :) 15:23:45 sykopomp: if you pretend that nested vectors are matrices, then easily. 15:23:47 parens are a bliss to type in programmer dvorak 15:23:48 dlowe: a[i][j] looks cluttered 15:23:50 how often do you have to write (aref a i j) anyway 15:24:11 sykopomp: rather (multiple-value-call #'aref array (values i j)) 15:24:39 pkhuong: huh? In Python? 15:24:41 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@64.119.157.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:24:48 murilasso [~murilasso@64.119.157.61] has joined #lisp 15:24:52 consing is worse than premature optimization 15:24:53 billitch [~billitch@91.86.235.36] has joined #lisp 15:24:56 a[i][j] has four difficult-to-type characters, (aref a i j) has only 2 15:25:08 only one, if you use paredit 15:25:23 stassats: and don't feel like typing further :p 15:25:23 no, it will still have that many difficult-to-type characters :P 15:25:24 koning_r1bot: speak for yourself. My () are where W and E usually are on qwerty. 15:25:25 stassats: hehe. you out-typed me. 15:25:35 what do u guys suggest for stand lisp coding ? 15:25:38 clisp? 15:25:50 we like sbcl here 15:25:58 standard lisp? it's outdated 15:25:59 ccl is also a fine implementation 15:26:05 *H4ns* likes clozure cl 15:26:28 *sykopomp* votes for Clozure CL, but has 6 different implementations installed, and uses 4 of them on a regular basis. 15:26:31 and cmucl 15:26:33 sykopomp: x[i][j] indexes in two vectors, and represents a matrix as a vector of vectors. 15:26:46 dlowe: i have sbcl installed , i think i should switch over to sbcl , only thing that i noticed in sbcl , no history of expression with up arroy key like in clisp 15:26:57 pankajm: install slime. 15:26:59 pankajm: there's ways to get that 15:27:11 H4ns: slime is also ther 15:27:11 *Xach* uses (ql:quickload "linedit") and (linedit:install-repl) 15:27:19 pkhuong: my point was more about the first-classness of the mechanism for accessing these arrays. 15:27:26 H4ns: are u suggesting to run slime in emacs 15:27:27 sm` [~s@78.157.15.219] has joined #lisp 15:27:28 as opposed to magic [] syntax. 15:27:31 *stassats* uses rlwrap sbcl 15:27:33 pankajm: correct. that's the way. 15:27:44 pankajm: you should learn about emacs and slime 15:27:45 *sykopomp* uses clisp as his command-line calculator. 15:27:45 sykopomp: it's trivial to name that syntax with a function. 15:28:07 pankajm: if you don't use emacs, just use rlwrap :p 15:28:11 pkhuong: this is true, yes. 15:28:18 pankajm: i agree that not having history on the command line is annoying, but i don't spend a lot of time on the lisp command line anyway. 15:28:21 dlowe: i am more of a vi fan 15:28:45 sadly, vi fans can't outmatch slime yet 15:28:48 pankajm: I switched to emacs because of slime and haven't regretted it, but YMMV 15:28:53 pankajm: if you are serious about learning cl, use emacs. 15:29:12 H4ns: i am thinking of learning emacs also this weekend 15:29:24 pankajm: I switched to emacs too, and I use viper mode and vimpulse to get vim keys 15:29:25 H4ns: just to look at the other side of the fence 15:29:35 pankajm: why is it that "vi fans" choose to express their fanhood whenever emacs is suggested for lisp programming 15:29:47 adeht: it's a holy war 15:29:49 pankajm: a sneak peek at what slime is: http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 15:29:54 adeht: you must be new to the technology world! ;D 15:30:08 sadly, you can't be a great lisp programmer and a die-hard vi fan-boy at the same time. 15:30:28 H4ns: tell that to Paul Graham. 15:30:36 H4ns: you can, only if you write your own IDE for VIM 15:30:36 sykopomp: he don't listen to me. 15:30:37 I'm not a fan of recommending people change their text editor when learning a new language 15:30:45 debates about how 'great' a programmer he is aside. 15:30:45 one thing at a time, eh? 15:30:46 stassats: sure. many have tried, many have failed. 15:30:58 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:31:04 that's because they're not die-hard enough 15:31:06 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:36 dlowe: i think it is a mistake to let people believe that they can use lisp with vi. it is just the wrong tool, and they'll not have a great experience. 15:31:36 the world is awaiting for a great vi and lisp lover to stand up for emacs injustice 15:31:39 H4ns: do u guys think that coding in lisp is faster and shorter than python 15:31:56 pankajm: no. we like lisp just because. 15:32:06 one of the things that makes me faster is Slime 15:32:38 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:42 pankajm: Python can't achieve the same level of interactive development as Lisp. 15:32:55 it can't? 15:33:09 no. Redefining classes in Python doesn't update instances. 15:33:17 so you're stuck starting over. 15:33:31 H4ns: I didn't have a great experience when I started with lisp and was using vim, but I'm still glad I wasn't both learning lisp and emacs at the same time 15:33:45 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 15:34:32 stassats: and I don't know of any pythonistas who develop interactively in a serious way. The m.o. seems to be "edit script, rerun, maybe load a definition into the repl and test it once, occasionally" 15:35:30 dlowe: i'm not telling people that they can't use vi, i'm telling them that they'll not have a great experience trying to use it. it is like when someone comes to me and asks me whether he can use his canoe to cross the ocean. he can, but it won't be fun and i know it. 15:35:57 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:36:03 my emacs config seems to have some error getting loaded with emacs 15:36:09 i'm using M-x run-python, which is atrocious, the world is in need of Slime for other languages 15:36:10 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 15:36:14 (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/bin/sbcl" 15:36:15 (add-to-list 'load-path "/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/slime/") 15:36:15 (require 'slime) 15:36:15 (slime-setup) 15:36:27 find the missing paren 15:36:37 H4ns: what is missing? 15:36:41 pankajm: do yourself a favor and use quicklisp. 15:36:44 1. don't paste here. 2. what adeht said 3. use (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) instead 15:38:01 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756338.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:32 stassats: thanks it works now 15:38:49 -!- sunwukong [~vukung@t1.iit.bme.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:53 i need to write a big program , Slime seems to be intereactive , do i write the whole program interactively in slime? 15:40:14 pankajm: you test bits interactively 15:40:15 pankajm: You write the program in files and use slime to send the code to Lisp. 15:40:23 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:26 pankajm: then you interact with the program in the repl. 15:40:28 Xach: ops srry for that misunderstanding 15:40:37 -!- adeht [void@cattle-driver.no-ip.info] has quit [Quit: death] 15:40:44 pankajm: did you watch the video? 15:41:06 stassats: the speed is quite low 15:41:28 stassats: is there a torrent or metalink for the same 15:41:33 stassats: or any other mirror 15:41:38 i don't think so 15:41:53 stassats: the default one seems highly throttled 15:42:04 _death [void@common.lisp.su] has joined #lisp 15:42:04 stassats: it should finish in 3-4 mins 15:42:05 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:42:11 Bronsa [~Bronsa@host155-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:42:31 -!- _death is now known as adeht 15:42:36 just be patient 15:42:44 adeht: Wow, amazing hostname you got there 15:42:47 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 15:42:49 I deeply envy you 15:42:51 :D 15:42:51 4 minutes, geez 15:43:53 stassats: srry , acually i have to complete an assignment in lisp by tomorrow , is vim fine for that assignment , or in emacs can anyone plz tell if i need to write the whole code interactively in slime , or in a separate file and send it to slime ? 15:44:14 pankajm: Xach just told you that 15:44:23 If you already know vim it might be easier to use slimv 15:44:43 (instead of learning a new editor until tomorrow) 15:44:44 if you have to complete the assignment by tomorrow, don't bother with slime 15:44:49 one day is not enough to learn emacs and lisp. 15:45:04 it's enough to cargo cult something up 15:45:37 Where does this confusion about the repl and files and whatnot come from? 15:45:52 Seems like a lot of new people are confused by it 15:45:59 from never seeing slime before? 15:46:47 No, i mean, this idea that one would write programs by typing in the repl without ever using files 15:47:21 H4ns: thanks for that suggestion , i think i will just finish the assignment in vim and wait for emacs+slime till tomororow :) 15:47:23 from smalltalk? 15:47:29 *ZabaQ* fondly rememebers the near vertical learning curve of CL, emacs and slime. 15:47:45 drdo that kind of is how you wrote programs on some Lisp systems... 15:47:51 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:51 stassats, you talk about a video tuto for slime use ? do you have any link ? thanks :) 15:47:56 worth it, though. 15:48:06 well, i have it earlier 15:48:06 kbdvdr: check cliki 15:48:11 it's there 15:48:12 http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 15:48:21 s/have/gave/ 15:48:26 drdo, stassats thanks ^^ 15:48:42 it's slightly outdated 15:48:52 somebody should totally screen a new one 15:49:06 Zahl: CL seems to be very steep , challenging , i m loving the learning experience , i hadnt had any aha moments since the last 2-3 days i started learning about lisp except only the ease of 'list processing' in lisp 15:49:23 *stassats* hopes that this somebody is not him 15:49:26 stassats: "somebody" should totally fix lisp-mode :) 15:49:45 what's wrong with it? 15:49:56 is lisp bad for other approaches like oop , iterative , etc 15:50:03 pankajm: no. 15:50:11 pankajm: it's incredibly great for them 15:50:29 stassats: k 15:50:34 and you can pick and choose between if you like 15:50:38 pankajm: common lisp is bad for functional programming because it is full of side effects. 15:50:38 What's iterative? 15:51:05 drdo: loops and imperatve languages 15:51:11 drdo: you write your code until n times until it's done 15:51:21 drdo: it was my connotation , not a standard term 15:51:35 oh 15:52:33 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 15:52:34 pankajm: CL has one of the nicest object systems around.. and has a small language whose purpose is to help you iterate 15:56:11 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.18.248] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:56:15 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:58:08 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 15:59:47 it was great talking to all of you , u are one of the friendlist and helping irc channels i have ever seen , back to my assignments now , bbye 16:02:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:02:17 #lisp? friendly? Don't hear that very often. 16:02:56 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-237.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:02:59 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-237.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 16:03:07 perhaps everyone was tired 16:03:31 Consider this our wake-up call. We've clearly grown soft. 16:03:37 lol 16:03:53 you had better find someone to be rude to, and fast 16:04:18 SBCL takes too long to compile. Blarg! 16:04:33 well come on, the world is collapsing: lisp is only good for functional programming, then lisp is no good for functional programming, something has to give 16:04:37 sykopomp: here is a nickel, buy yourself a real computer 16:05:09 sykopomp: And stop writing lambda-heavy, imperative code! ;) 16:05:17 heh. I got a computer with 8 cores and 6gb of RAM against my will at work. I have no idea what to do with all those jiggawatts and bites. 16:05:35 redline6561: that pesky lambda and its GOTO nature. 16:05:41 you can build 8 sbcls simultaneously 16:05:44 sykopomp: quicklisp testing 16:06:04 Xach: :D 16:06:10 tompa [~tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:15 -!- tompa [~tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has left #lisp 16:06:35 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:07:55 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:07:55 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:08:35 sykopomp; I used to have such a beast when I was doing visualisation of large voxel datasets 16:11:16 Guthur [c0c1f510@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.16] has joined #lisp 16:11:50 can cxml do pretty printing, i.e. indent outputted XML 16:12:19 the XML I have has no whitespace and I would like to add some for readability 16:12:31 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:12:34 Guthur: yes, it is an argument to the sink constructor 16:12:49 the :indentation ? 16:13:01 Guthur: correct. 16:13:29 didn't seem to do anything for me, what number value is correct 16:13:55 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 16:15:10 Guthur: i use (with-xml-output (make-character-stream-sink stream :canonical nil :indentation 2) somewhere in my code, that works. 16:15:47 sluggo [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:02 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:04 ah got it, cheers H4ns 16:18:32 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:19:56 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 16:20:19 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.133.12] has joined #lisp 16:20:23 -!- kbdvdr [~co1n@210-89-227-75.ap-w02.canvas.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:23:06 Balooga_ [~rooms@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:47 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:26:00 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:27:06 -!- Guthur [c0c1f510@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.16] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:28:31 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:30:55 -!- qfr [void@unaffiliated/yw] has quit [Quit: Theism is cancer] 16:32:33 qfr [void@haskell.2011.hk] has joined #lisp 16:37:18 -!- Balooga_ [~rooms@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Rooms  iPhone IRC Client  http://www.roomsapp.mobi] 16:37:23 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:39 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39:46 is there litterature about exploitability and security of lisp programs ? 16:39:53 also, hi all =) 16:40:33 billitch: I don't know any specific document. There have been discussions on cll. Things about *read-eval* etc. 16:40:35 i'm interested in safe execution of untrusted code 16:40:40 billitch: there is some bad literature 16:40:45 egomosis [~egomosis@cpe-76-188-33-45.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:51 i feel it is a much inexplored area 16:41:13 http://www.xach.com/lisp/security/ 16:41:16 billitch: basically, you need to build an interpreter allowing only the functions you want. 16:41:27 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci] 16:41:33 -!- qfr is now known as qfr- 16:41:38 or a compiler :) 16:41:52 not running untrusted code should be safe 16:42:23 and a reader, too, lest the standard one be DOS'ed by way of interning more symbols than you have memory 16:42:27 aka: a scripting version of common lisp 16:42:29 Xach: they could add pjb to that list... 16:42:31 billitch: I'd trust the OS gurus and use jails. 16:42:41 memory can be limited process-wise 16:42:56 i can limit processes 16:43:40 I'd rather use VMs than jails. Jails are broken all the time. 16:43:45 i'm more worried about buffer overflows, maybe just enforcing safe code 16:44:04 pjb: i dont trust vm code 16:44:12 much more difficult to get right than a jail 16:44:26 billitch: SBCL lets you force code to compile with safety at least 1 (or 2 or 3). 16:44:56 That won't help you enforce anything if someone defines a new VOP or uses unsafe constructs like SAPs. 16:45:15 or FFI. 16:45:15 pkhuong: right i still have to filter code for those things 16:46:51 i'm afraid i need to enforce this at compiler level 16:47:06 unless i forbid eval 16:47:46 maybe i could organize a kind of "rootme" lisp sandbox =) 16:48:02 billitch: it's easy to sandbox things in scheme, don't know if it's the same for CL 16:48:03 would you be interested in playing ? 16:48:04 billitch: it's much more practical to sandbox at the OS level. 16:48:31 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:48:39 i was thinking setting a DMZ where everyone could try to break the jail 16:48:52 fewer things to control, and it's a more common problem. 16:48:54 and letting everyone play 16:49:52 that's what usually happens when someone brings here an eval-bot, and then it gets banned 16:50:09 billitch: what would be the incentive for "playing"? 16:50:29 hm the fun part of breaking things =) 16:50:45 "hey, i've formatted this guy's hard disk, ain't it cool?" 16:50:50 billitch: or, asked the other way round, what would it tell you if noone played long enough to break what you've come up with? 16:51:15 stassats: sounds like a game pjb *would* enjoy 16:51:40 H4ns: i would not really trust negatives anyway, but would be very interesting in case of positives 16:51:51 stassats: why do evals bot get banned? 16:52:03 but maybe pkhuong is right : maybe the OS can do the job 16:52:25 insecure, they get into non-ending loops or so.... 16:52:36 eval bots* 16:52:47 billitch: in general, the os received much better auditing than whatever you can come up with yourself, so you'd better trust that. 16:53:17 rien_: high noise level 16:53:42 H4ns: the thing is i would like to restrict what users can do, so i would also like some filtering at the lisp level too 16:53:48 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:56 billitch: if you really want a sandboxed lisp that, say, share one address space, you'd be better off with creating a fresh lisp with the features that you want rather than trying to cut down on common lisp until it is safe. 16:54:06 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 16:54:20 mheld [~mheld@c-75-69-89-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:41 H4ns: yes but i can give one process per user 16:54:57 H4ns: or abstract shared memory to make it work across processes. It's likely that you'd have specific requirements wrt capabilities and permissions 16:55:09 no need to start with a fresh lisp, you can start with scheme and cut off the functions you don't want them to access 16:55:27 i realize i'm only interested in restricting accessible symbols from arbitrary code 16:55:40 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.133.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:55:49 billitch: you can construct symbols from other types 16:56:06 rien_: cut off how? 16:56:23 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.133.12] has joined #lisp 16:56:39 dlowe: that's why i'm afraid to have to do this at compiler level 16:57:13 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-oyzubndrhwefdiae] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:58:08 what's surprising me is that no lisp os has solved that problem already 16:58:18 all one of them? 16:58:44 and lisp machines, or ITS 16:58:52 are they not os ? 16:59:00 billitch: they were single user machines, or shared with full trust between users 16:59:23 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-206-31.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:59:51 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-206-31.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:17 pkhuong: yes, its hard to believe nowadays =) 17:00:40 full trust, sounds like lost paradise 17:00:43 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 17:01:10 pkhuong: like Lua does 17:01:10 now it's full thrust on breaking it 17:01:29 pkhuong: you can close over a function you want to still have available to you but not to the user-programmer 17:01:46 rien_: so, what's the relation with "scheme" (which isn't an implementation)? 17:01:54 -!- mheld [~mheld@c-75-69-89-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 17:02:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-231-28.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:02:37 pkhuong: in any r5rs you should be able to do what I said 17:02:42 http://www.xach.com/lisp/security/ 17:02:45 Xach: What a gem 17:02:51 How did you get your hands on that? 17:02:52 rien_: how? 17:03:09 qfr-: A friend pointed it out to me, and took the screenshots. He said the entries on C were of similar quality. 17:03:19 hahahaha 17:03:25 I want to see them :/ must be a comedy gold mine 17:03:33 pkhuong: I'll show ya, hold on 17:03:53 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 17:04:05 qfr-: buy your own at http://amzn.to/h4e0eP 17:04:32 Hahaha 17:04:45 That's probably like $90 for me 17:05:08 I've been making my code insecure by using nreverse all this time! 17:05:53 I get race conditions from REMOVE all the time 17:06:08 qfr-: nikodemus's review is apt 17:06:17 I get buffer overflows with setf and nth in CL all the time 17:06:17 oh, and gigamonkey's too 17:06:40 Xach: was nikodemus serious with the gets remark? 17:06:54 Oh, what's gigamonkey's name? 17:07:04 In the reviews? 17:07:11 adeht: I don't know. I assume so. 17:07:15 qfr-: Peter Seibel. 17:07:19 right 17:09:07 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:09:27 -!- Bronsa [~Bronsa@host155-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:10:15 the ability of this world to produce pure WTF is awesome... 17:10:39 pkhuong: something like this: (define print (let ((old-print print)) (lambda (str) (old-print (string-append "[" str "]"))))) 17:10:55 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:10:55 I'm doing it incorrectly, but it's almost that 17:11:42 pkhuong: that way you can sandbox a function and not let the user have access to it except through a function you provide if you choose to do so 17:11:50 Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 17:14:38 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:15:28 seeing "Thomas Duff" rating that book at 4 stars had me do a double-take 17:17:33 i guess that's because it didn't include duff's device as a security issue 17:18:09 "The information that's contained in the book is good, to be sure." but it needs more examples and more languages 17:18:15 anfab [~chatzilla@122.164.45.93] has joined #lisp 17:18:21 Bronsa [~Bronsa@host155-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:18:31 -!- lundis [~lundis@dyn56-121.yok.fi] has quit [Quit: Fear not, I will return] 17:18:31 -!- Bronsa [~Bronsa@host155-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:18:43 benny` [~benny@i577A792B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:51 Bronsa [~Bronsa@host155-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:19:10 I guess it's for people who like to buy paper.. 700 pages? book must be great. 17:19:16 yeah Duff's device should not be depended on for obscuring the duration of a process 17:19:18 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:19:29 -!- benny` is now known as 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[~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-237.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:24:50 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 18:27:47 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:35 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 18:30:05 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-237.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo_] 18:30:08 carlocci [~nes@93.37.217.177] has joined #lisp 18:30:52 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 18:32:40 -!- naba [~chatzilla@122.164.45.93] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 18:32:45 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-9-141.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:35:10 -!- splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: sensible bedtime for once?] 18:35:45 etenil [~user@93-96-0-153.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:35:47 Hi there 18:36:13 hi etenil 18:37:57 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-149-120.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:38:13 I've made my first program in common lisp, and now I'd like to compile it, but I'm not sure how to do it. Do I need to create a function like main() in C or something of the kind? 18:38:36 for the moment I'm only using my program in slime so I call the functions straight away 18:38:37 etenil: After you are finished compiling it, what do you expect you will have as a result? 18:38:51 etenil: That is a pretty normal way to use Lisp. 18:39:16 etenil: 87.5% of my Lisp use is from calling functions in the repl. 18:39:33 Xach: well it's a simple logbook application, I just want to invoke it in a terminal, type in a log entry, hit C-d and that's it 18:40:08 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-223-31.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:11 Xach: come to it, I'm not even sure how to handle stdin :( 18:40:13 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-223-31.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:15 javuchi [~noname@235.Red-193-152-254.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:19 etenil: I use http://xach.com/lisp/buildapp/ for things like that. 18:40:30 etenil: it depends on the distribution... there is generally a distribution-specific command to save the image, with an option to make it executable (and you can specify which function is called) 18:40:31 read-line! 18:40:31 etenil: You can read input from the *standard-input* stream. 18:40:37 oh boy. 18:41:04 schmrkc: don't make fun of the beginners :( 18:41:21 etenil: No man don't get me wrong. It's just that we have had so many trolls asking the exact same question. 18:41:34 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:41:39 we did? 18:41:45 I've seen atleast two! 18:41:52 amalloy [~amalloy@li231-96.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:56 schmrkc: ah. Well I don't want to troll, I'm just kind of lost 18:42:00 etenil: Ah cool. 18:42:23 schmrkc: i bet they were coerced into trolling by #lisp responses 18:42:28 one more question about #| comments...if your file looks like #| , does the compiler/interpreter complain? 18:42:43 etenil: Basically there is no main(), you tell your script to call some function or some stuff. 18:42:51 amalloy: yes. 18:42:53 amalloy: yes, at least with the distributions I've used 18:42:58 thanks! 18:43:02 you get "unexpected end of file" 18:43:17 schmrkc: Can I use a lisp file as I would a bash script? so that it doesn't need to be compiled? 18:43:48 you surely can 18:44:11 etenil: yes.. for example, sbcl has a --script option 18:44:30 etenil: if you do want to compile, you can fire up your lisp, compile anything you need to, and then save the image. E.g., for SBCL, see http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Saving-a-Core-Image.html 18:44:47 sounds good 18:44:59 I guess one could also load a fasl from a bash script. 18:45:03 -!- amalloy [~amalloy@li231-96.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 18:45:36 sbcl's --script is next-to-useless if you want to load libraries. 18:45:37 sbcl fasls have #!sbcl --script prepended 18:45:46 by default 18:45:52 stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:46:14 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46:17 aha. 18:46:42 Xach: depends on how you use it.. e.g., you can save an image with systems used by your utilities loaded and use script with that image 18:47:38 adeht: If you go to the trouble to do that, why not go all-out and make it an executable? 18:48:01 ease of editing? 18:48:01 Xach: then you don't have to re-build your scripts for every change 18:48:14 Xach: and of course it saves some space 18:48:55 Ease of editing makes sense, but you can always multiplex based on the executable name to avoid too much space waste. 18:49:00 Xach: true 18:49:05 my default sbcl core is built with almost all libraries i use which i don't modify 18:49:16 -!- FaceFox [~asdfaaa@pool-74-111-197-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: http://FaceFox.com] 18:49:21 stassats: that's what I did too, when I worked with lisp professionally 18:50:06 i think i did it when i got tired with FFI crashing sbcl and long restarts 18:50:40 loxs [~loxs@77.70.57.12] has joined #lisp 18:53:12 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:31 does the copy for Let-over-Lambda read a tad tasteless to anyone else?: "Let Over Lambda (ISBN 978-1-4357-1275-1, 376+iv pp.) is one of the most hardcore computer programming books out there. Starting with the fundamentals, it describes the most advanced features of the most advanced language: COMMON LISP." 18:59:09 yeah, upcasing Common Lisp is quite tasteless 18:59:14 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:31 mheld [~mheld@c-75-69-89-109.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:08 yan_: Yes, i know what you mean 19:00:41 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:00:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.3.66] has joined #lisp 19:01:07 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:01:09 does it describe the long form of define-method-combination? :) 19:02:51 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 19:03:59 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:04:30 sohail1 [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:35 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A502.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:58 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:05:30 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:05:35 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A502.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:26 -!- wanderingelf [~user@c-71-61-22-64.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:07:39 yan_: it kind of matches the book's style pretty well 19:08:49 cmm: you mean its hardcoreyness? 19:10:45 no, I mean its style 19:11:01 mascotte [mascotte__@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-23-249.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:14:17 -!- etenil [~user@93-96-0-153.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:15:41 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-47.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:15:55 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Quit: off to cook a curry (no, not currying..)] 19:16:35 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:18:45 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-39-71.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 19:19:13 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:22:16 -!- loxs [~loxs@77.70.57.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:24:30 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-11-77.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 19:25:13 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:26:57 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-90-33.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:27:26 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:28 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:46 Adlai_ [~leif@static-71-249-194-107.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:12 paul0 [~user@189.114.196.159.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:34:42 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-55.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:35:21 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-55.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35:55 howdy 19:36:11 common lisp supports UTF-8 named symbols? 19:36:23 no, but some implementations do. 19:36:25 i mean, atoms 19:36:27 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-253.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:58 sbcl, ccl, clisp? 19:37:08 paul0: UTF-8 is an encoding scheme. 19:37:22 paul0: It doesn't make much sense to talk about symbol names as "UTF-8". 19:38:30 paul0: Did you have a particular character or characters in mind? 19:38:51 Brazillian portuguese characters, like "João" 19:39:43 parkq [~parkq@209-6-20-163.c3-0.wrx-ubr3.sbo-wrx.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:53 sbcl doesn't seem to support 19:40:00 '(João Paulo) 19:40:04 paul0: Works fine for me. What happens when you try? 19:40:20 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:27 (JO?O PAULO) 19:40:33 using sbcl 19:40:35 *luis* stares at (format-symbol :alexandria '#:~A-p foo) for a while 19:40:58 paul0: I suspect something in your environment is not properly configured. 19:41:44 make sure your terminal is set to utf8 19:41:46 or it is the emacs environment, I'll try using the terminal 19:41:48 and your editor too 19:42:01 I have (setq slime-net-coding-system 'utf-8-unix) in .emacs 19:42:08 yup, that was the problem. Using the terminal works 19:42:45 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:42:51 Hmm, '#:~A-p is evaluating to PACKAGE::A-P in this image. 19:43:21 The readtable must be messed up. 19:45:03 -!- billitch [~billitch@91.86.235.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:48:45 Yep, funky reader macro on #\~. :-/ 19:49:07 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F00D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:49:19 -!- gonzojive1 [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:49:26 isn't there one like that in LOL? 19:49:40 Anyway, embedding the format string in the symbol name is an interesting trick. 19:51:02 luis: it's one of the easiest ways of getting a symbol that is correctly capitalized per readtable case (: 19:53:06 varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:53:09 damn, PROGN completely foils sbcl ability to determine in which form the error is 19:53:13 Yeah, I've used stuff like (concatenate 'string "~A-123" '#:whatever) in the past. This one's much nicer. 19:53:19 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53:27 which sucks enormously 19:56:58 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-237.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:58:52 az_ [~az@p5796CA8F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:03 xiackok [~Administr@94.54.81.99] has joined #lisp 20:01:02 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-55.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:04:31 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.109.48] has joined #lisp 20:04:53 murilasso [~murilasso@173-13-81-254-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:39 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:07:01 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 20:07:26 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-47.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:09:19 stassats: even with debug on level 3? 20:13:28 -!- parkq [~parkq@209-6-20-163.c3-0.wrx-ubr3.sbo-wrx.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:14:44 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:22:13 -!- stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:55 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:24:41 -!- thom_ [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:24:48 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 20:30:14 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-119-103.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:32:53 -!- Bronsa [~Bronsa@host155-184-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:35:07 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-61.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:35:35 now, this is ridiculous: (let ((foo 0)) (unwind-protect (/ foo)) foo) doesn't signal an error 20:36:09 can somebody check this on their SBCL? 20:36:24 stassats: no error here 20:36:58 here neither 20:37:29 k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:37 stassats: no error, but clisp flags an error 20:37:47 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:38:13 s/,/ on SBCL,/ 20:39:06 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:39:10 ABCL signals an error too 20:39:47 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:39:59 i'm not interested in other implementations 20:40:32 wow he's also a dick to people helping him 20:40:34 stassats: sbcl signals an error here 20:40:44 rien_: Go away. 20:41:11 stassats: oh wait.. for the code you wrote it doesn't 20:41:28 -!- k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:42:37 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.211.47] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:02 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: rpg] 20:44:51 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:45:34 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 20:48:15 dmytrish [~dmytrish@79.124.167.245] has joined #lisp 20:48:46 there is no call to division at all, so it's somewhere in ir-transforms 20:48:50 stassats: hey stas, sorry about calling you a dick. I had read your sentence with a preconceived bias. 20:49:39 baggles [~bill@craftsmanltd.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:49:40 that was rude of me. 20:50:03 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:18 is there some library or easy method that I can pack bit streams (writing integers of a specific number of bits) into streams/vectors of 8-bit bytes and back again. so that they're not necessarily byte-aligned 20:51:44 baggles: variable numbers of bits per object? 20:51:49 even simpler test-case: ((lambda (x) (/ x) x) 0) 20:52:01 baggles: odd-streams 20:52:04 baggles: or are they all the same size? 20:52:12 odd-streams is for when they are all the same size, isn't it? 20:52:25 so i could specify a variable number 20:52:38 oh, sorry. "specific number of bits" is clear. 20:52:52 odd-streams seems likely. 20:53:54 hm. yeah it wants a fixed word size 20:54:34 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-55.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:54:38 i was kind of thinking of converting to a bit vector, but that seems like it could be slow for big piles of data 20:55:06 baggles: I'm confused again. Is each integer the same bit size? 20:55:45 no, i might write one with 5 bits, the next with 12, but when i unserialize i will do the same thing with the same number of bits 20:55:45 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 20:56:23 stassats: compiler/srctran.lisp:3371 20:56:32 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:ddfc] has joined #lisp 20:57:30 baggles: I don't know of a generic library, but I wrote a bitstream scheme for salza2 zlib compression, and I think chipz/deflate must have to do the same thing on the reverse side. 20:57:42 fe[nl]ix: good catch 20:58:04 ok. i'll just roll my own. i don't think it's too complicated what i want it for 20:58:08 :) thanks 20:58:19 baggles: What are you making? 21:00:05 mmm... at the moment, a compact binary non-byte-aligned object serializer 21:00:06 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:00:22 just for fun, or as part of something else? 21:00:26 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:30 both :) it's for a game engine 21:01:40 nothing serious :) 21:02:38 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 21:02:55 francogrex [~user@109.130.143.178] has joined #lisp 21:04:01 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.86.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:03 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053009117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:04:15 fe[nl]ix: though, that's not it, it's for (/ 0 0) 21:04:26 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.212] has joined #lisp 21:06:53 Xach: Hi, I wanted to add a request for cl-win32ole for quicklisp. I think it's quite a useful library - but only for people on windows (I use it successfully to control almost all MS applications from lisp (plus business objects, sas etc...)- pls see if it's worthwhile: https://github.com/quek/cl-win32ole 21:07:05 stassats: I think that probably the optimizer decides to remove that call since / has no side-effects and its result isn't used 21:07:27 i know that much, but i can't find where 21:07:55 francogrex: please open a github issue at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues 21:08:01 well, i guess / is declared as foldable 21:08:04 ok 21:08:51 stassats: I think "flushable" it the right one 21:08:59 it's "unsafely-flushable" 21:09:01 btw, (declare (notinline /)) fixes that 21:09:10 safety 3 too 21:09:27 done 21:09:56 stassats: not here 21:09:58 but not even with safety 2, is unsafely-flushable supposed to behave that way? 21:10:26 fe[nl]ix: ((lambda (x) (declare (optimize safety)) (/ x) x) 0)? 21:10:37 nope 21:10:41 already checked that 21:11:23 you mean this returns 0? 21:11:48 yes 21:11:53 what sbcl version? 21:12:07 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-55.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:12:20 1.0.45 21:12:50 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:50 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:52 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-11-77.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:12:56 fe[nl]ix: and ((lambda (x) (declare (optimize (compilation-speed 1) (debug 1) (space 1) (speed 1) safety)) (/ x) x) 0) ? 21:13:26 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:13:35 that signals an error 21:15:31 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:05 francogr` [~user@109.130.143.178] has joined #lisp 21:17:11 -!- francogr` [~user@109.130.143.178] has quit [Client Quit] 21:18:01 fe[nl]ix, ((lambda (x) (declare (optimize safety)) (/ x) x) 0) signal DIVISION-BY-ZERO on 1.0.45 osx 21:19:39 unsafely-flushable says "unsafe call may be eliminated if value is unused", but safety 1 is a safe call, isn't it? 21:19:47 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756338.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:11 on Linux too 1.0.40 signals DIVISION-BY-ZERO 21:20:35 but in the code i see (policy call (= safety 3)) for unsafely-flushable elimination 21:20:55 astalla: yeah, thanks for the checking, i've enough information for now 21:21:01 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:21:03 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:21:10 -!- christoph_debian [~christoph@DSL01.212.114.250.149.ip-pool.NEFkom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:21:26 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.143.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:53 bulbous [~bulbous@122-59-237-37.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:21:58 oh, safe code is indeed "safety 3", oh well 21:22:32 *stassats* rushes to put (safety 3) into his ~/.sbclrc 21:23:04 -!- bulbous [~bulbous@122-59-237-37.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 21:23:37 -!- xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db86956.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: xraycat] 21:23:38 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 21:23:49 jtza8_ [~jtza8@41.56.51.23] has joined #lisp 21:27:19 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.3.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:30:05 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:31:17 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:32:42 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:54 -!- mcsontos is now known as c-u-brick 21:33:43 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:36:04 -!- Adlai_ [~leif@static-71-249-194-107.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:36:25 -!- murilasso 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#lisp 22:08:20 -!- mascotte [mascotte__@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-23-249.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:12:45 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Quit: sellout] 22:15:55 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:00 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 22:18:19 xiackok [~Administr@94.54.81.99] has joined #lisp 22:20:24 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: gz] 22:23:07 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:20 -!- Adlai_ [~leif@26.sub-174-252-20.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:31 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:23:43 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:23:52 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-149-120.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:24:46 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:26:12 -!- az_ [~az@p5796CA8F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:26:12 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.109.48] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:26:18 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-61.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:28:15 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:30:14 Good morning everyone! 22:30:21 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:31:36 beach: it's 23:30 here, a bit too early in the morning ;) 22:32:21 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:33:02 incf astalla 22:34:44 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 22:35:06 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 22:35:24 az [~az@p4FE4F979.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:45 mitre [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 22:37:38 Adlai_ [~leif@73.sub-174-252-8.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:43 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.109.48] has joined #lisp 22:39:42 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:41:27 billitch [~billitch@host-78-129-3-155.brutele.be] has joined #lisp 22:42:22 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-39-71.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 22:42:27 -!- Adlai_ [~leif@73.sub-174-252-8.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:43:13 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-20-142.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:43:32 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-116-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:01 -!- rafusy [rav@torvalds.rootnode.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:48:24 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.109.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:49:47 Is there a CL function like Haskell's 'take', where (take n list) would get the first N elements of LIST? 22:50:35 Quadrescence: subseq, sort of. 22:51:13 Xach: Oh, yeah, SUBSEQ is just what I needed 22:51:49 You'll get an error if you have the wrong bounds. 22:51:55 yeah 22:52:15 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.109.48] has joined #lisp 22:52:15 SUBSEQ is likely _not_ what you need, you just don't know it yet 22:52:30 adeht: Why? 22:52:37 -!- antifuchs has set mode -o antifuchs 22:52:41 usually there's a better way to do things 22:52:56 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 22:55:03 Adlai_ [~leif@97.sub-174-252-19.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:23 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6FA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:57:42 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 22:57:52 adeht: Right now is not a very good time in the program to try to determine what the best way to do everything is. 22:58:00 -!- jdz [~jdz@host79-14-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:20 Quadrescence: sure, then by all means use subseq 22:58:24 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.74.35.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:35 adeht: I will note it down if you think it is that dangerous. :) 23:00:08 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see] 23:00:44 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:01:26 Quadrescence: I don't think it's dangerous.. it's just my experience that subseq can often be replaced by something more elegant 23:01:38 -!- Adlai_ [~leif@97.sub-174-252-19.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:01:45 how to access an item of #2A() ? 23:02:01 aref 23:02:13 thanks 23:03:39 it seems there's no mention in PCL about it : 23:03:54 adeht: subseq is good. It's often must faster than anything else. (ie. often, you only have to copy small ranges). 23:04:54 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:05:05 dmytrish: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html has a few examples 23:05:24 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:05:24 dmytrish: but generally, arrays can be a bit advanced (: 23:05:51 and you don't often need row-major-arefs of multidimensional displaced arrays (; 23:06:36 rafusy [rav@torvalds.rootnode.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:47 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.109.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:52 rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:09:07 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:37 antifuchs: I'm writing sudoku solving program, so I think I need two-dimensional array (: 23:10:53 dmytrish: no you don't. See Norvig's thing. Use a hash. ;-) 23:11:38 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:47 rexantony [~rexantony@host42-183-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:12:17 pjb: often use of :start/:end means you don't need to use subseq 23:14:06 _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:14:07 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.87.244] has joined #lisp 23:15:51 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:04 -!- rexantony [~rexantony@host42-183-dynamic.117-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 23:18:07 sea4ever [~sea@63.175.157.76] has joined #lisp 23:18:07 -!- sea4ever [~sea@63.175.157.76] has quit [Changing host] 23:18:07 sea4ever [~sea@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 23:18:22 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:18:32 mheld [~mheld@129.10.203.42] has joined #lisp 23:18:57 dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@79.124.167.245] has joined #lisp 23:19:38 paul0` [~user@189.114.203.189.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:20:37 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.217.177] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:21:00 -!- paul0 [~user@189.114.196.159.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:22:03 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@79.124.167.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:22:38 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:22:45 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 23:23:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:23:40 -!- dmytrish_ [~dmytrish@79.124.167.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:24:26 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 23:24:49 I'm googling for a tutorial on how to get started with MOP, but I am not finding anything. Anyone know of any? I basically just want to know what package to start looking in for the mop functionality. 23:26:28 baggles: closer-mop is what I have used 23:26:40 http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/closer-mop.html 23:26:43 baggles: what bobbysmith007 said. 23:26:45 aha. thanks! :) 23:27:35 baggles: amop is the book to read 23:28:31 -!- sluggo [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has quit [Quit: end 925] 23:30:42 tcleval_ [bad50907@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.213.9.7] has joined #lisp 23:31:19 hi. which of the CL implementations can do tail call optimization? 23:32:47 sbcl does 23:33:02 I didn't use any other implementation though 23:33:12 can't tell... 23:33:15 ...if you follow Rules. 23:33:41 Blkt: I know that CLisp does acording to Land of Lisp book 23:33:51 nice 23:34:41 I assume ccl does it as well 23:35:16 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:24 newbie question: why does the following return 'no-match? (defvar foo '(1 2)) (case foo ('(1 2) 'match) (otherwise 'no-match)) 23:36:13 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:36:28 I suppose because (eql '(1 2) '(1 2)) => nil 23:36:33 ah 23:36:42 i suspected it had something to do with how eql worked.. 23:36:43 but I'm not sure of it, let me check 23:37:16 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 23:37:19 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@41.56.51.23] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:37:45 yes, that's the reason 23:38:01 valium97582 [~daniel@187.74.35.156] has joined #lisp 23:38:03 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:09 pattern: notice however that (case 'quote ('(1 2) 'match) (otherwise 'no-match)) --> match 23:38:30 pattern: check the syntax for CASE. 23:38:37 DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:38:56 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 23:38:56 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 23:39:00 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:01 i was looking at the hyperspec entry for case... it's not always the easiest reading.. 23:39:12 pattern: syntax is basically BNF. 23:39:13 pattern: it grows on you 23:39:29 I find hyperspec hard to read 23:39:35 You can't be a programmer if you don't understand BNF. It's almost as old as CS. 23:39:49 and cybersex is /old/. 23:40:14 it's not the bnf i don't understand 23:40:16 you mean Bachus-Naur? 23:40:16 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:40:19 it's the terms used there 23:40:23 like "otherwise-clause::= ({otherwise | t} form*) " 23:40:24 *pjb* suspects antifuchs thinks somebody's programming with his dick... 23:40:31 what is form* ? more than one form? 23:40:53 pattern: yes. Kleene notation. As old as BNF. 23:41:21 Actually, * = 0..n ; + = 1..n. 23:41:21 pjb: it's a valid question though 23:41:30 pattern: 0 or more, IIRC. check out section 1.4.1 for more details 23:41:57 madnificent: well, I assume a reader of CLHS has read chatpter 1. 23:42:06 Kruppe [~user@CPE00222d128ba2-CM00222d128b9e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:25 anyway, the hyperspec isn't just bnf 23:42:35 99% of it probably isn't 23:42:36 pattern: yes, but the rest is written in English. 23:42:50 legalese english 23:43:02 it's like reading a congressional bill 23:43:05 pattern: have you seen legalese english? 23:43:32 WHEREAS the operator + ("The Operator") accepts zero or more arguments ("The Operands") 23:43:35 is GCL project dead? 23:43:35 anyway.. sorry.. i didn't mean to come here and start a flamewar about the hyperspec 23:43:39 pjb: I never read it from cover to cover. I think most (new) lispers read it when they look up the documentation for a function. 23:43:59 the CL standard is surprisingly readable considering the standard standard readability 23:44:11 still the first few chapters must be read entirely. 23:44:15 incf adeht 23:44:41 pjb: that's the first time I hear that. If it really is the case, it should be told to new lispers more often 23:44:57 yes. We should write a reading guide of CLHS... 23:45:26 etenil [~user@93-96-0-153.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:45:30 Hey all 23:46:02 it sounds ironic, but it may actually not be that bad of an idea. It should be clear that it is a formally defined standard. It should also be clear which chapters should be read 23:46:06 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.87.244] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 23:46:08 hey etenil 23:47:26 -!- javuchi [~noname@235.Red-193-152-254.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:48:12 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-90-33.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:48:25 I've written my very first program in common lisp. I suspect my coding style is pretty bad. Could anyone have a look at my code and tell me if there's any way to make it more elegant? 23:48:36 etenil: lisppaste. 23:48:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118607 23:49:29 etenil: you inverted the arguments of merge-pathnames. 23:50:58 pjb: I don't understand in what manner they are inverted? 23:51:19 (merge-pathnames (make-pathname :name ".logbook") (user-homedir-pathname)) 23:51:26 you may be able to write date-exists in a clearer manner with loop 23:51:35 etenil: though some dislike loop 23:51:47 I'm afraid I'm one of those 23:52:13 loop's syntax seems awfully too complicated to me 23:52:18 (loop for line = (read-line logbook-stream nil) while line when (string= line date) do (return t)) 23:52:19 read PCL 23:52:20 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:52:26 etenil: do take a look at iterate then :) 23:52:27 read PCL's chapter about it 23:52:43 it won't be so ugly after that 23:52:45 egomosis [~egomosis@cpe-76-188-33-45.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:47 ok 23:52:59 etenil: (if condition nil something) = (unless condition something) 23:52:59 I've read PCL. I have it on my desk 23:53:11 -!- tcleval_ [bad50907@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.213.9.7] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:53:13 pjb: a loop one-liner isn't exactly the perfect example of how a pretty loop form looks (: 23:53:36 madnificent: more like (progn something) in the if expansion. 23:53:39 pjb: can be replaced with thereis (string= line date) 23:53:40 pretty and look in the same sentence? 23:53:42 loop forms can look pretty? 23:53:50 antifuchs: yeah, but for one form it'd work just fine... 23:53:58 drdo: for what they do, they do 23:54:06 pjb: ok, let's say non-complicated 23:54:15 madnificent: I don't get ou (if condition nil) -> (unless ... 23:54:45 etenil: all in all, the code is clear btw. The functions aren't too big, the names are good. You didn't indent things in a bad manner, or place the closing parens where they don't belong. 23:55:00 clhs unless 23:55:04 ,clhs unless 23:55:17 etenil: whatever, look at the hyperspec for unless :) 23:55:19 etenil: one thing I'd change is to rename date-exists to date-exists-p 23:55:31 madnificent: oh I just found it 23:55:38 incf antifuchs 23:55:44 antifuchs: good idea :D 23:55:46 etenil: you defined a package but never used it. 23:55:47 etenil: predicates get a -p suffix by convention (: 23:55:58 or p if they don't contain a dash. 23:56:18 etenil: you have code for reading lines up to some condition duplicated 3 times in that program 23:56:22 pjb: predicate naming style is more complicated than that. I re-read the cliki page from time to time to refresh my memory. 23:56:24 pjb: not exactly 23:56:34 adeht: Yeah, I've noticed 23:56:47 adeht: I just don't know how to deal with it 23:56:52 antifuchs: perhaps a lisp application that makes the correct predicate name could be of some help 23:56:54 http://www.cliki.net/naming%20conventions (that one) 23:57:04 madnificent: hah, but the predicate name depends on intent! 23:57:05 etenil: and when I say never used, you never defined anything in it! 23:57:14 etenil: for starters, you can write a map-lines-in-file function 23:57:23 step 1: import a brain into a lisp application 23:57:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:57:47 antifuchs: how does it depend on intent? (not saying it's not true) 23:58:00 madnificent: check the cliki link 23:58:11 pjb: Oh I forgot about the package. Thanks for reminding me 23:58:12 drdo: I am checking it 23:58:29 colinh [~colin@e181066104.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:58:37 madnificent: from the cliki page's quote of cltl2: " For example, the predicate string-lessp has no hyphen before the p because it is the string version of lessp (a MacLisp function that has been renamed < in Common Lisp). The name string-less-p would incorrectly imply that it is a predicate that tests for a kind of object called a string-less, and the name stringlessp would connote a predicate that tests whether something has no 23:58:37 s")!" 23:58:40 adeht: what would map-lines-in-file do exactly? 23:59:10 etenil: replace your DO's 23:59:15 quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:19 -!- colinh [~colin@e181066104.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:59:20 well yes 23:59:25 antifuchs: got it... what a bitch to program! 23:59:25 -!- egomosis [~egomosis@cpe-76-188-33-45.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:59:34 colinh [~colin@e181066104.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:59:34 antifuchs: as in, we'll need a brain 23:59:40 etenil: it could take a function and call it with each line.. and also may take an optional predicate telling it when to stop 23:59:48 is there a nice, concise way of sign-extending a number? as in http://www-graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html#VariableSignExtend 23:59:50 thank the universe, we are equipped with one! (: