00:00:06 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 00:01:46 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:01:46 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:01:58 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 00:02:07 confusedlispnoob: it's the same reason Java has the DataInput and DataOutput interfaces. 00:02:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:04:43 :D i was kind of hoping CL would let me half ass it with some Clike casting 00:04:54 damn, i have so much to learn now :P 00:05:05 thanks a lot 00:05:06 haha, this is CL. no half-assing allowed. 00:05:08 (-: 00:05:52 (you can still take shortcuts, but often they take you in the right direction, and not usually in the direction of your foot (-:) 00:06:36 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-137-226.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 00:06:40 -!- confusedlispnoob [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 00:13:37 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.245] has joined #lisp 00:15:34 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:11 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.64.178.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 00:17:39 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 00:19:34 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:21:47 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21:51 iwillig [~iwillig@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:00 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:27:59 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.207] has joined #lisp 00:30:44 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 00:34:48 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:55 kanru [~kanru@114-45-237-190.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:52 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:39:30 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:33 wtf, when i do start maxima whithout having a .sbcrc in my /home/user dir then no errors happen when running the testsuite, but when there is a .sbclrc a whole slew of packages get loaded, without errors, but the testsuite for maxima then reports 2 errors at least 00:42:39 all the packages got installed afresh of course with quicklisp.... 00:43:23 homie: perhaps maxima did some modifications to a package you installed through quicklisp? 00:45:31 madnificent: no no, it's vice versa, when the packages get loaded i get errors which were not reported before with maxima when running the testsuite, but when i load the packages, and start the testsuite thereafter i get at least 2 errors in rtest16.mac, 387 and 389 00:47:07 -!- pnq [~nick@host-143.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:48:38 instead of a true as answer i get a #.SB-EXT:DOUBLE-FLOAT-POSITIVE-INFINITY in those tests 00:49:58 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 00:50:08 homie: rc files are not made for applications. Why does maxima launch reading it? 00:50:35 At best, it would read a ~/.maximarc, not ~/.sbclrc or whatever implementation it runs on. 00:51:18 etenil [~user@93-96-0-153.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:51:27 Hi there! 00:51:28 i don't know that, it's a subtle bug then i assume.... 00:51:41 cause that should not happen not ? 00:52:00 homie: not subtle at all, it's normal for rc files to contain modifications to the environment that will lead to conflicts in applications. 00:52:03 i just compiled maxima with --enable-sbcl --with-default-lisp=sbcl 00:52:09 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Client Quit] 00:52:30 i could have givenn a --with-sbcl='sbcl --no-sysinit --no-userinit..' too but then it fails to compile 00:52:39 Unfortunately, a lot of programs don't avoid the rc file. sbcl itself when compiling itself tries to load it! 00:52:59 yeh, that i mean, exactly 00:53:02 I'm using a MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND but I don't use all of the values the function GET-DECODED-TIME, yet I bind them all, which leads to some warnings when I compile. Do you know if it's possible to only get some of the returned values? 00:53:41 if i have a .sbclrc in my home it will get used anyway, so my strategy for now is to always rename it before i go into compile any lisp or such... 00:53:49 homie: either there's a script to launch maxima, or it uses a saved image. In clisp, there's an option to produce a saved executable image that won't run .clisprc. I assume something similar could exist in sbcl. 00:54:25 homie: I tend to write lisp.sh scripts and run them instead of sbcl or whatever implementation, when I need to control what needs to be loaded. 00:54:55 etenil: NTH-VALUE 00:55:28 valium97582: thanks mate 00:55:50 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:55:59 etenil: you're welcome 00:56:09 etenil: Xach told me yesterday :P 00:57:51 mephisto_ [~mephisto@airmarshal-v217-219-16.airyork.yorku.ca] has joined #lisp 00:59:20 etenil: you can also (declare (ignore a b c)) 00:59:35 valium97582: eh, that's for only one value :( 00:59:42 where a, b, and c are the variables you don't use. 00:59:48 gigamonkey: I'll have a look 01:02:32 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A8C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:03:35 gigamonkey: Looks right, I'm not sure where this would fit in the code though, can I put it anywhere in the scope of the variables? 01:05:21 gigamonkey: ah, my intuition was right. Thanks for the help! 01:07:31 -!- kanru [~kanru@114-45-237-190.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:08:52 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 01:09:19 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 01:15:23 nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:30 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:16:00 -!- etenil [~user@93-96-0-153.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:19:08 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-162-18.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 01:21:31 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:31 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:21:31 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 01:21:31 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:23:33 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 01:24:21 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:26:33 SH3LL_BOY [~tgmm@187.3.33.250] has joined #lisp 01:26:44 -!- SH3LL_BOY [~tgmm@187.3.33.250] has left #lisp 01:27:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-134.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:03 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-87-89-40.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28:22 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:28:48 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 01:30:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 01:32:29 beach: Alexandria totally needs the macro EXECUTION-TIME here in this file: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/src/e3c23510d062/utils.lisp 01:33:02 -!- vokoda [~user@host86-145-188-244.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:34:49 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-151.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:35:38 -!- thom_ [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:37:41 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:37:43 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:41:37 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:46:04 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:46:13 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 01:49:58 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:50:00 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:50:06 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:29 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 01:53:16 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 01:55:05 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:55:06 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:52 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:56:14 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:03:31 Quadrescence: Contrary to common belief, I actually don't work on Alexandria. 02:04:10 beach: I hope you know why there's such a belief. ;) 02:06:05 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has quit [Quit: superflit] 02:06:09 Quadrescence: Sort of. 02:06:49 beach: See the bottom of http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/ 02:08:23 -!- pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:08:29 Quadrescence: Right. 02:08:54 Which one of those people are in here right now? 02:09:21 jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:52 -!- Park_Q [~parkq@209-6-20-163.c3-0.wrx-ubr3.sbo-wrx.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:18:19 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:18:50 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 02:19:58 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:20 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:25:41 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:27:45 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:28:05 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 02:28:20 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.245] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 02:28:37 nesv [~nesv@CPE00222d67cb11-CM00222d67cb0d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:32:48 bitflip [~user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:45 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:34:09 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 02:34:20 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:34:20 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-181.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:34:37 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-85.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:34:45 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:35:21 -!- nesv [~nesv@CPE00222d67cb11-CM00222d67cb0d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 02:36:47 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-144-41.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:39:34 -!- bitflip [~user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:41:37 Man, two guys in a row who wanted to slurp binary chunks in a single bound 'like C'. 02:41:43 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 02:42:26 incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:40 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:42:42 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:43:18 Quadrescence: hey did you find it?? 02:43:49 rien: maybe but i should probably clean it up a little 02:43:53 maybe rewrite it in lisp :O 02:44:04 Quadrescence: no! :) 02:44:07 that'll take ages 02:44:34 also cleanup = breakage 02:45:20 I'd encourage you to rewrite it in Lisp but that doesn't mean you can't publish both versions 02:46:21 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:40 rien: but C is so C 02:49:04 sword` [~sword@c-76-115-88-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:32 I know :P hey if you have the gas to convert it to lisp that would be even awesomer but comparing both versions would be a nice learning experience for me 02:50:54 ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has joined #lisp 02:50:55 -!- sword [~sword@c-76-115-88-63.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:52:36 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:38 nunb [~nundan@117.195.104.24] has joined #lisp 03:01:55 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:05:21 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-181.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:06:36 hi, is there a difference between 'null and 'not? They seem to do the same thing. 03:09:17 pavelludiq: just in intention. 03:09:52 As the Hyperspec says: "null is intended to be used to test for the empty list whereas not is intended to be used to invert a boolean (or generalized boolean)." 03:09:53 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:10:22 aha, so both of them exist to avoid confusion 03:10:22 and NOT is shorter than NULL :P 03:11:31 phaer [~user@static.72.102.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 03:12:10 They exist because they express different intentions. 03:12:15 Just like first vs. car. 03:12:22 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-181.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:13:28 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:13:32 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 03:13:32 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:17:36 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440702.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:18:20 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 03:23:18 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442869.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:27:22 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:39 pattern [~pattern@unaffiliated/pattern] has joined #lisp 03:34:33 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 03:38:22 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-87-89-40.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:18 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:41:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:43:00 -!- phaer [~user@static.72.102.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:50:48 sh10151 [~sh10151@72.240.63.122] has joined #lisp 03:53:39 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:53:53 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:50 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:59:33 -!- mephisto_ [~mephisto@airmarshal-v217-219-16.airyork.yorku.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:50 csmax [~max@p5DE8F8FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:25 -!- csmax_ [~max@p5DE8CD15.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:04:34 who did wxmaxima's cell's ? 04:05:50 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:06:16 lemoinem [~swoog@105-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:51 -!- sh10151 [~sh10151@72.240.63.122] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 04:08:00 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:08:15 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:08:20 RaceCond1tion [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 04:08:39 shoooot and there he is! 04:08:42 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:09:31 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.64.178.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:10:14 -!- tmh [635b0c15@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 04:14:27 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:04 oconnore [~eric@50.10.172.212] has joined #lisp 04:24:53 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442869.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 04:25:35 -!- osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:42 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.170.51.103] has joined #lisp 04:26:42 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.170.51.103] has quit [Changing host] 04:26:42 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 04:30:13 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442869.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:31:07 http://pastie.org/1451099 04:36:55 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 04:37:14 balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:34 amalloy [~amalloy@li231-96.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:50 osoleve [~osoleve@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:16 do the lisp #| comments tradionally nest? 04:38:55 b14ck [~b14ck@cpe-72-129-70-245.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:39:16 bryno [~bryno@unaffiliated/bryno] has joined #lisp 04:40:09 amalloy: yes. 04:40:47 schmrkc: thanks. and also damn. i'm trying to add them to clojure's compiler, but nesting is trickier :P 04:41:08 amalloy: Well I dunno about "nesting" but you must balance them. so it works out as nesting I guess. 04:41:39 schmrkc: right 04:42:21 i don't have an inferior-lisp handy - is there a bot in here i can hassle to see how they behave? 04:43:19 nope. 04:44:30 #| 1 #|| 2 ||# 3 |# 04:44:38 behaves just fine ;) 04:45:16 schmrkc: right, i gathered as much. but some sort of disgusting case like #|(print "|#")|# ? 04:45:37 ooh 04:45:58 ya that blows up atleast in sbcl 04:46:04 okay, good. imo it should 04:46:15 and it's much easier behavior to code, too 04:46:19 yeah. or else it'd not be a comment. 04:46:23 right 04:46:31 thanks schmrkc, think i've got what i need 04:46:37 no worries. happy clojure. 04:46:47 might check it out next month for the game jam \o/ 04:46:58 schmrkc: eh? what is this game jam? 04:47:41 amalloy: The lisp game jam! It is on right now. An exciting 7 day event it is :) 04:47:51 amalloy: You take some lisp and make a game. 04:47:53 linky! 04:48:05 http://lispgames.ath.cx/index.php/2011_January_Lispy_Game_Jam 04:48:15 and I figured heck lets make it atleast a bimonthly thing. 04:48:30 turns out this time around we got a bit of an icky theme-gameplay-technical combo. 04:49:02 schmrkc: nice 04:49:14 but yeah. sidescrolling restaurant with no graphics. wth is that 04:49:32 whoa, I didn't knew about this lispy game jam. I'll watch it 04:49:48 I tell you it means action filled adventure with jumping on tables, collecting coins and dodging bullets. 04:49:56 that's what side-scrolling restaurant with no bitmaps mean ;) 04:50:25 paul0`: first one! 04:50:37 You receive the information in the form of acceleration charts. 04:50:50 Zhivago: :D 04:50:58 -!- osoleve [~osoleve@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:51:49 Then sit down with pen and paper, do some math, and bang in the punch card with your input right back in there! 04:52:12 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.216.12] has joined #lisp 04:54:31 -!- b14ck [~b14ck@cpe-72-129-70-245.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:55:17 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:32 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.216.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:57:46 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tnpdawfbilzqxzav] has joined #lisp 05:00:00 -!- az [~az@p5796CE67.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:00:48 bitflip [~user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:50 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:05:34 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:40 -!- nunb [~nundan@117.195.104.24] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:05:51 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:05:54 -!- derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:06:42 derrida [~derrida@unaffiliated/deleuze] has joined #lisp 05:07:46 az [~az@p5796CFE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:54 -!- oconnore [~eric@50.10.172.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:09:06 schmrkc: what about #| 1 #|# |# 2 ? i imagine the 2 is still inside a comment, yes? 05:09:37 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:10:31 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:10:56 djinni` [~djinni`@li125-242.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:11:35 mephisto_ [~mephisto@kd-v135-130-63-240-117.airyork.yorku.ca] has joined #lisp 05:15:30 amalloy: yup 05:19:40 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-tnpdawfbilzqxzav] has left #lisp 05:21:54 nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 05:24:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-181.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:24:33 daniel [~daniel@p5B3275A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:46 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B327A61.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:25:47 Mr. Jeff Siskind, if you can hear me, you made me shed a tear of happiness this night. :') 05:26:01 vminko [~vitel@62.148.136.219] has joined #lisp 05:26:07 -!- vminko [~vitel@62.148.136.219] has left #lisp 05:27:48 -!- TheRebutler [~TheRebutl@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:28:05 ? 05:28:13 What did Siskind do today? 05:29:02 -!- nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:29:25 nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 05:29:37 TheRebutler [~TheRebutl@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:29:40 -!- TheRebutler is now known as abc_ 05:29:43 -!- abc_ is now known as k04n 05:31:06 -!- k04n [~TheRebutl@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:31:29 Zhivago: I am just dazzled by Screamer. 05:33:12 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-87-89-40.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:34:30 Can I load an asdf system without putting it in my asdf installation? 05:34:49 (ie, to try something without installing it) 05:34:58 Axioplase_: quicklisp! 05:35:22 Hum. I haven't installed it on this machine 05:35:41 Otherwise I'm pretty sure the answer is still yes. 05:36:13 Park_Q [~parkq@209-6-20-163.c3-0.wrx-ubr3.sbo-wrx.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:33 Just make sure asdf can find the .asd file. 05:37:23 I believe with a default asdf and sline setup, you can cd to the directory in the repl and then load the system. 05:37:26 joshe: well, that must be my question then. How? :) 05:37:33 *slime 05:39:47 yep, that did it. 05:39:55 Now, the source's incomplete 05:40:15 Axioplase_: otherwise, you can C-c C-k the relevant asd files; it's a hack and only works by accident, but that might be good enough. 05:46:03 pkhuong: I found that C-c C-l works less unreliably sometimes 05:46:10 but it's still a hack, and you shouldn't rely on it 05:47:35 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:50:35 osoleve [~osoleve@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:48 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:56:12 -!- sword` is now known as sword 05:59:18 -!- ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:59:22 -!- incandenza [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59:51 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:02:29 methods [~methods@pool-96-240-0-78.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:13 why did they choose to make clos instead of providing simple facility to create an object system like lua does ? 06:03:56 For object systems to be useful they need to be able to communicate between systems written by different authors. 06:04:24 CLOS is essentially an object system created on CL - it is rooted in the class-of operator. 06:04:38 ah your first statement doesn't mean much to me 06:04:55 but i get you rpoint 06:05:05 incandenza [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:13 still though for a language that boasts simplicity and basic principles that powefull... lua beats ya there 06:05:48 methods: if you want that, look into Scheme 06:05:56 Lua got those ideas from it 06:06:31 hm 06:07:21 it's done the same way as in Lua except there's no need to copy the metatable 06:07:53 how often is the fact that lisp code is able to read other lisp code as a list even used? 06:08:15 or did i miss understand that's how it works ? 06:08:19 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 06:08:39 I'm still a newbie so I can't really answer that 06:08:42 idk i have to learn more about lisp to find out how lua compares 06:10:06 lisp doesn't use something like lua's tables right ? 06:14:21 methods: I think you've completely lost the plot. 06:14:32 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:14:36 methods: If I write some code, then it's important that other code be able to use it. 06:14:46 methods: e.g., being able to call my functions, or use my objects. 06:15:03 anyone can do that 06:15:05 methods: CLOS provides two fundamental mechanisms for this -- class-of and generic functions. 06:15:05 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 06:15:08 it's just methods 06:15:17 however you decide to internally bind them around is up to you 06:15:18 methods: I'm going to assume that you're slightly retarded. 06:15:29 your not ? 06:15:40 methods: As a slightly retarded person you might not have realized the implications of writing your own object system. 06:15:41 rien so what's the name of scheme system ? 06:15:49 methods: I can spell "you're", at least. :) 06:16:00 yea i'm lazy that means i'm also stupid 06:16:06 your anal 06:16:11 methods: No. You can be both for independent reasons. 06:16:11 who cares ? 06:16:14 move on ? 06:16:27 methods: Well, it appears that it is a waste of time to talk to you. Good luck. 06:16:32 do you even know how lua's approach works? 06:16:45 later dick head 06:17:31 methods: what do you mean by "scheme system"? 06:17:42 the one that lua coppied their ideas from 06:17:46 -!- paul0` is now known as paul0 06:18:25 >> Thus it is possible to create new object-systems by extending or changing the provided CLOS functionality. 06:18:32 lol got that from wiki page... 06:18:35 there's no name really for the particular act of creatings objects with simpler tools. but it's based on using lambdas as closures inside a function/lambda 06:18:37 vago guy is a shit head 06:19:13 many people here are like that, you'll get used to it. 06:19:28 yea so it just passes back a list that has local scope to the caller for private variables for instance and the list has inline methods defined right ? 06:20:04 well they don't have to be inline but that's just a detail 06:20:17 that's one way to do it 06:20:21 yea... 06:21:07 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:21:20 idk i really like the lua way .. and contrary to what zhivago thinks you just call a method and it does whatever it wants behind the scenes in regards to how prototypes are chained back... 06:21:48 Gven that you are mentally retarded, I will explain that I was not talking about lua. 06:21:54 lol gven 06:21:59 I was talking about CLOS, being that was the topic. 06:22:20 you pissed off today ? 06:22:23 relax... 06:22:31 methods curses in an unamusing manner. very quaint. 06:22:34 -!- tessier_ [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:22:38 Zhivago means well 06:22:48 he's trying to explain why there's already an object system in place 06:22:49 sbrtgr: what's up ? 06:22:54 yea i know 06:23:00 but he gets angry for no reason 06:23:00 the reason Lua doesn't have one is minimalism 06:23:43 yea that's what i figured lisp was about though... basic principles that were powerfull... forcing an object system onto you is reason something like scheme will never integrate 06:24:08 well common lisp comes with an object system but scheme doesn't 06:24:15 yea 06:24:27 scheme is a good candidate for being embedded just like lua 06:24:51 in fact that's why lua feels like scheme, but they used an easier syntax because it's made for non-programmers 06:25:06 yea i mean lua forces nothing onto you.. you can use the basic prototype concepts or extend it to create something like loop (lua oop) ... 06:25:24 just curious, why people use clisp if sbcl is faster? What are the benefits of using clisp instead of sbcl? 06:25:28 they also wanted to be a configuration language at first so (((((())))))) wasn't gonna make sense 06:25:59 methods: Do you ever get tired of saying really stupid things? 06:26:09 methods: the point is, Common Lisp is meant to be a language ready to go, so everything is already in place and you can get cracking without shaving any yaks 06:26:23 paul: clisp is small and runs everywhere. 06:26:51 Zhivago: what's your problem ? 06:26:54 All that you need to implement CLOS is class-of and funcallables. 06:26:57 methods: Morons. 06:27:07 rien sure kinda... but so is lua... 06:27:18 Zhivago: you are moronic so smack your self 06:27:31 The rest can be implemented on top of that. If you're interested in understanding how, read The Art of the Meta-Object Protocol. 06:27:40 methods: no, Lua is minimalist like Scheme, but Common Lisp is ready for anything you may need, it's "batteries included" 06:27:55 If you're too stupid to manage that, then it's probably time to be quiet. 06:28:27 sure batteries included can mean allot of things though but doesn't have to be a forced upon you object system .. 06:28:35 oh wow. 06:28:38 should I scrollback? 06:29:38 methods: Who forces you to use CLOS? 06:30:07 methods: right you are! let's go burn down a building next! 06:30:09 Zhivago: apparently you do lol ? 06:30:10 methods: it means that they had to pick one system as the standard, which is something Lua won't do, with good reason (a reason that works for lua but not for lisp) 06:30:17 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 06:30:21 -!- methods [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has been kicked from #lisp by Zhivago (answer the question) 06:30:26 methods [~methods@pool-96-240-0-78.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:32 i did.. your mad slow 06:30:45 -!- Zhivago has set mode +q methods!*@* 06:31:32 Zhivago: so, clisp is better for portability 06:32:09 Clisp is portable in the sense that it runs on systems which it has been ported to. 06:32:12 splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 06:32:23 It has an awful lot of assembly code though. 06:32:24 morning 06:32:47 Is nikodemus' SBCL survey ('2010') still going on? 06:32:49 ECL should be much more portable. 06:33:19 joshe: I've read about sbcl can be build by another CL, it doesn't have assembly code? 06:34:06 paul: Well, let's put it this way. You can run clisp on a PDA with a weird architecture. 06:34:13 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:34:45 spiaggia [~user@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 06:34:50 Good afternoon 06:35:13 paul0: You can build SBCL using clisp. sbcl has its own assembler. 06:35:14 SBCL needs a native-code compiler and VM for each architecture it runs on. That is much more architecture-specific code than clisp has. 06:36:07 hm, thanks 06:36:47 I think sbcl is the best choice for me now (since I have no plans to use Windows) 06:37:39 sbcl or ccl seem the sane choices unless you have some reason to use something else. 06:38:50 *paul0* is googling for ccl 06:39:02 Clozure? 06:39:06 yup 06:40:06 "An IDE on the Mac OS X, fully integrated with the Macintosh window system and User Interface standards." 06:40:21 ok 06:40:36 also runs just fine with slime on windows/looniks/freebsd 06:40:41 paul0: it works flawlessly on the mac 06:41:23 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:42:06 rien: I'm reading about it, this bridge to Objc and Cocoa looks really nice 06:42:42 kwertii [~kwertii@ResNet-32-197.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #lisp 06:44:12 ten years ago I've heard some guys on IRC talking about how lisp was powerful and stuff. But it didn't seemed so attractive at that time 06:44:32 heheh 06:45:09 last years I've been reading some of Paul Graham essays about Lisp, and all those material avaliable on internet, and I totally regret for not learning it before :/ 06:45:34 same here, now I'm trying to catch up 06:46:01 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47:07 I just can't understand, why all of that good technologies were left behind, and now are being re-discovered, and being trending technologies 06:47:16 funny world 06:47:35 -!- imv [~imv@94.231.123.31] has quit [K-Lined] 06:47:45 Well, scales of resource change. 06:47:47 -!- spiaggia [~user@113.161.72.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47:51 Look at javascript, for example. 06:48:04 marketing, too (or lack thereof) 06:48:05 -!- bitflip [~user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:48:36 people won't use the best tool in the world if they've never heard of it, or if they don't understand why it's a great tool 06:48:46 lisp's syntax puts a lot of people off, like smalltalk's image system 06:49:07 Ruby on Rails uses a lot of MVC concepts, which nobody cared about since it's release, but it spread pretty fast (good marketing, perhaps) 06:49:28 paul0: rails had _great_ marketing. 06:50:08 mvc has been in every book on architecture since for ever 06:50:11 kwertii: I'm happy about Rails popularity, it brings a lot of good development practices 06:50:14 how else would they convince so many people to use such a bloated frameword 06:50:15 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 06:50:38 paul0: also some very, very bad ones.. such as treating an RDBMS as a glorified hash table, ignoring database constraints and integrity.... 06:51:12 kwertii: everything is a trade-off 06:51:29 they had to do that for their target audience 06:52:19 yeah.. Rails solved a big problem for many people. it allowed people with little to no knowledge of relational databases to start writing database-backed web apps. before it, you actually had to understand something about databases to do that. 06:52:24 Zhivago: that's a bit of a chicken and egg issue: now that javascript is so widely used, it's not as resource hungry. 06:52:38 actually, I like ActiveRecord... but well, I was the first framework I read about. Until that, I was writing entire sites using pure PHP+MySQL 06:52:44 Well, that's true -- and a lot of resources have gone into it. 06:53:00 But what's also true is that there are a lot more resources that people are happy to throw at it. 06:53:21 And if you look at what javascript's runtime does, the work is pretty close to what a lisp runtime needs to do. 06:53:41 Zhivago: arguably, it is a lisp. 06:53:44 Just imagine if we had a tracing lisp compiler, for example. 06:53:53 kwertii: fsvo something. 06:54:01 pkhuong: Well, I prefer to avoid those arguments. 06:54:18 at the time I've first heard about lisp, I heard about Ruby too (circa 2000), then I've choosed Ruby as my favorite language, but I always worked with PHP 06:54:28 Zhivago: bah, tracing lisp. I'm trying to trace machine code ;) 06:54:34 pkhuong: at any rate, far more than you need to know to do it with rails :p 06:54:39 but ruby and rails gave me some nice concepts about programming, which bring me to lisp 06:55:04 pkhuong: Anyhow, I think it's just part of why old fashioned ideas come back into fashion -- shifts in effective resource costs. 06:56:55 Zhivago: I'm not so sure actually. Our software doesn't become magically faster each year anymore. All that we can buy are more of the same computers, instead of faster ones. The relative costs are changing again. 06:57:06 kwertii: I really like activerecord, it's simplicity helps people to get things done fast. If there's any performance issue, you can write your own SQL queries if needed 06:57:30 pkhuong: Well, lisp systems aren't big any more. 06:57:34 paul0: that's why it's so popular, it's simple to use. but it doesn't, for example, even create foreign key constraints on the database 06:58:02 Zhivago: Clojure is on a big uptick lately 06:58:18 pkhuong: Although that's always been more about memory and disk sizes than computational power, imho. 06:58:25 anything java gets a huge boost in popularity by default 06:58:59 rien: yeah, back to marketing... Sun dumped how many untold millions of dollars into promoting Java... 06:59:08 Zhivago: Did you ever give Scala a try? 06:59:47 Quad: Not yet. I've been too busy with stuff lately. 07:00:32 kwertii: what would be the equivalent to activerecord, in lisp? 07:01:29 *schmrkc* finds scala surprisingly pleasent. Just some annoying bits :) 07:01:35 paul0: I don't know of any exact equivalent. there's stuff like Elephant in CL, which is an object database, and Franz's AllegroCache, but they're not RDBMS backed. 07:02:35 paul0: there's your oportunity to make a killer app and promote lisp :) 07:02:53 Scala has some nice type theoretic things that I wish CL had. If I had the time I'd try to extend CL to have more of those type features. 07:03:05 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:03:12 don't need to be exactly equivalent, actually i would prefer one that do things in the lisp way 07:03:18 paul0: along those lines, there's also ClojureQL, which is an RDBMS interaction library that understands relational algebra. you could make a really cool higher level persistence layer on that. 07:03:31 rien: hah, I would love to do, but first I need to learn more about lisp 07:03:34 Quadrescence: of course some nice pattern matching too. 07:04:24 I'm working on some weirdo pattern matching stuff http://codepad.org/11nohGmB 07:04:58 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:06:01 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-162-18.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:47 hmmm 07:06:53 seems like fun 07:13:20 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:15:22 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 07:15:26 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:15:47 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 07:15:59 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:39 Quadrescence: I wonder how much Qi and Scala overlap in their type concepts 07:16:48 Quadrescence: does scala use the hindley milner system? 07:17:20 sbrtgr: It does more than HM, some things are even undecidable. 07:18:27 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:18:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:18:33 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:19:54 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:21:24 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:22:48 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:22:48 -!- flip214 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[~stefan@gssn-5f756a08.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:42 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.207] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:39:10 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:39:15 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:36 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:40:07 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:41:02 -!- merodach [~bagdemir@62.104.226.37] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:41:06 Have any lisps made it to android yet? 09:46:43 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:48:08 hugod_ [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442869.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 09:48:08 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442869.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:48:08 -!- hugod_ is now known as hugod 09:48:39 ZabaQ: yes it has: http://www.jawara.org/public/top.html 09:49:27 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:49:57 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 09:53:45 Cool. Looks like I'll be able to do some android development sooon.. 09:57:28 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:03:54 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 10:07:08 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E99A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:57 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E494.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:11:27 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:27 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:51 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:06 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:21:26 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:28:34 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@host81-155-53-140.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:36:26 dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:36 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:06 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:27 -!- ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:48:43 Good evening everyone! 10:50:38 -!- k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:00 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:51:15 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:51:26 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:54:19 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:55:01 oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:50 Good morning beach! 10:57:26 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:00:57 yo beach 11:03:13 Joreji [~thomas@73-072.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:10:27 chitech [~khuongdp@82.143.212.234] has joined #lisp 11:10:42 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@82.143.212.234] has quit [Client Quit] 11:12:52 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:13:41 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-137-226.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:38 -!- _ism [~frinnn@i59F6052C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:17:43 -!- vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17:50 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:17:59 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@210-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 11:18:05 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 11:19:45 biTT [~frinnn@i59F62918.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:31:28 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 11:31:44 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:32:05 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 11:37:02 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:37:18 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AED8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:29 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:39:45 -!- sbrtgr [~user@174-30-215-125.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: good night] 11:50:39 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:50:43 daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 11:50:53 -!- amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:52:15 ZabaQ: if you aren't worried about locking your application to Gingerbread and later, ECL can be used to build Android apps. Dunno how well would Boehm GC work, though (Gingerbread added concurrent GC to Dalvik) 11:54:37 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:55:14 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:18 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-072.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:06:46 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:09:13 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 12:09:52 -!- fezzle [~fezzle_@bas15-toronto63-1279473944.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:14:04 ExtremeDevilz [~ExtremeDe@unaffiliated/extremedevilz] has joined #lisp 12:14:15 want hear something funnt 12:14:22 "Baby, baby, baby, OOH!" 12:14:23 Dad:*walks in* "are you listening to Justin Beiber??" 12:14:23 Kid "no i am watching porn" 12:14:23 Dad: "OH THANK GOD" 12:14:30 fezzle [~fezzle_@76.64.39.147] has joined #lisp 12:14:38 -!- ExtremeDevilz [~ExtremeDe@unaffiliated/extremedevilz] has left #lisp 12:16:08 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.11.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:28 xinming [~hyy@115.221.11.165] has joined #lisp 12:16:29 :-) 12:16:56 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:18:32 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E99A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:18:57 k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:01 H4ns [~user@pD4B9E99A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:07 siccegge_ [~siccegge@faui49p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de] has joined #lisp 12:20:08 -!- k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:21:24 hm is there a library to handle PCL (as in printer command language) in common lisp? $searchengine is quite obstructed by the gigamonkey book when searching for "pcl common lisp" 12:22:00 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:22:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 12:22:46 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:23:13 pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 12:23:42 how should i install https://github.com/Ramarren/cells-gtk3? 12:24:39 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2A2F.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:27:52 how do i install an .asd file? 12:29:42 pmurias: http://common-lisp.net/~mmommer/asdf-howto.shtml 12:31:27 siccegge_, write postscript and use ghostscript to convert? 12:32:53 siccegge_: afaik there's no PCL library, the idea of using ghostscript is IMHO the best, as ghostscript should be able to read output from cl-typesetting and generate PCL data... though you're better off integrating with whatever printing system your OS has 12:34:43 mephisto_ [~mephisto@CPE00163625fbf5-CM00407b85ff2a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:37:07 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:38:15 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.226] has joined #lisp 12:40:12 -!- njan is now known as evilnjan 12:40:21 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.226] has quit [Client Quit] 12:42:47 dfox [~dfox@ip-213-220-225-104.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:48:58 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-135-2.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:54:31 -!- daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #lisp 12:59:05 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 13:02:13 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:06:12 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:06:17 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:46 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:07:32 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:07:57 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:34 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:28 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:11:50 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483AED8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:13:10 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-137-226.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 13:15:32 Joreji [~thomas@73-072.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:17:58 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AED8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:09 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-137-226.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:21 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-137-226.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:23:14 netfrog [~gaim@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #lisp 13:26:21 i got cells-gtk to run! ;) 13:27:22 -!- HDurer_home [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:30:08 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:02 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:04 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 13:36:19 pmurias: yay (I think) 13:38:51 HDurer_home [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:55 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-137-226.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:57 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-137-226.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:40:56 urandom__ [~user@p548A725F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:20 splittist: the only docs for cells-gtk only mention cells so it's not that good 13:42:52 hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-226.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:15 vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 13:49:53 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:50 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:15 light [~chatzilla@188.19.194.189] has joined #lisp 13:56:26 -!- light is now known as Guest13380 13:56:50 Hello guys. 13:57:16 Hello guy! 13:58:41 What programming language is better for game development? 13:59:04 better than what? 13:59:06 Guest13380: the one you master 13:59:41 I think it ATS. 13:59:51 I have a friend who used to make games with cobol 14:00:36 It's fast? 14:00:54 not at all 14:01:19 Guest13380: never heard about cobol? 14:02:24 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Error 555: Too much information] 14:02:54 dlowe_n1 [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:12 Heard, but i wasn't interested. 14:03:22 oh gowd 14:03:35 -!- pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:03:46 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:03:50 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:13 :) 14:04:45 Guest13380: anyway, I think it's OT 14:05:13 echo-area [~user@123.120.245.73] has joined #lisp 14:05:21 it's not OT, because Common Lisp is the best language for everything 14:05:24 Guest13380: there is #lispgames i guess 14:05:32 What should I choose: C++, OCaml, GOL (or Common lisp). 14:05:38 GOAL* 14:05:57 Guest13380: throw a dice 14:05:59 there is no choice, there is only Common Lisp 14:06:05 Guest13380: you *can* choose GOAL? 14:07:22 stassats: I always tought CL was a way to make your own language... So it's the best meta-language for me. :) 14:07:47 oh boy 14:08:20 Guest13380: I have seen examples of Common Lisp being used to produce text adventure games. The choice is pretty obvious now, non? 14:08:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@73-072.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:09:01 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:18 twem2 [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:52 cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:08 CL is beautiful language.But I don't think that it isn't suitable for making games. 14:13:22 Guest13380: why? 14:13:49 you're right, it's suitable for making games 14:13:57 we here also think that Common Lisp is not unsuitable for making games 14:14:13 Guest13380: are you the troll of the week? 14:14:29 He is demanding of computer resources 14:14:32 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 14:14:42 o_O 14:14:45 yes, games usually are quite demanding 14:15:01 *araujo* back to work instead of looking in here 14:15:03 but not by definition 14:15:23 Guest13380: you don't know what you're talking about and your question is too broad to be answered. please learn some arbitary language, write a game or two, then come again with your specific questions regarding lisp. 14:15:33 -!- mansour [~mansour@78.155.84.64] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:15:40 How can you even think of making a game with CL when you can't produce a binary that is smaller than 10MB!? 14:15:50 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:16:08 murilasso [~murilasso@64.119.157.61] has joined #lisp 14:16:08 schmrkc: games can't be larger than 10MB? 14:16:28 the game of not turning computer on is the least demanding 14:16:34 schmrkc forgot to use a smiley apparently 14:16:43 H4ns: I'm sorry. I was poking fun at the other standard troll in here that goes around bitching about how hello world ended up being 50MB (: 14:17:26 could he write hello world with a built in compiler in less than that in other language? :) 14:17:35 Guest13380: I'm writing some sort of super game right now, using CL. It works just fine. 14:18:17 schmrkc: you're rich and spoiled, your game won't run on my i486dx 14:18:34 schmrkc: you're the rich one, i only have i386sx 14:18:40 :D 14:18:56 oh, soz, wrong completion 14:19:11 =D So maybe ATS? 14:19:28 Yes. ATS is the premier choice for game developers. 14:19:35 just pick a language. write a game. enjoy. 14:20:26 heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:56 -!- kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 14:21:54 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:22:11 kanru [~kanru@kanru-1-pt.tunnel.tserv15.lax1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:29 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756a08.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22:49 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756a08.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:31 ATS has a graphic library? 14:25:56 this is off-topic 14:26:50 Ok, thanks. 14:27:14 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has left #lisp 14:27:34 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:29:12 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:29:40 Is there a (preferably portable) way to copy a package? I've defined a package that uses a bunch of other packages, shadows some symbols, and shadow-imports others. I'd like to be able to make other packages with the same imported/used/shadowed symbols. 14:31:22 trebor_home [~email@dslb-178-004-223-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:45 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:33:22 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-135-2.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:40:26 LiamH: make-package and package readers? 14:40:37 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:40:39 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 14:41:14 adeht: yeah, I've been looking at that. By package readers you mean e.g. package-shadowing-symbols and package-use-list? 14:41:29 yes 14:42:29 package-shadowing-symbols doesn't seem to distinguish between shadow and shadowing-import symbols 14:44:06 are they different? 14:44:53 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:55 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:45:39 hello everybody 14:45:45 stassats: I always assumed so. 14:48:15 but I guess I can look at symbol-package for each to see where it comes from 14:50:42 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-116-183.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:41 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:54:43 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:56:02 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-qwcnifypquehpcoa] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:56:33 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 14:57:47 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:51 xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db9681d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:55 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.162.169] has joined #lisp 15:00:23 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:54 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:01:12 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:01:20 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01:33 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 15:02:33 how can i define that expressions should be evaluated at read-time? *cant remember* 15:02:47 #. 15:03:07 hm there was something different... 15:04:31 nope. that's it. 15:04:53 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:54 perhaps you mean load-time or compile time? 15:05:34 ah, yes 15:05:42 clhs eval-when 15:05:46 hm. 15:05:51 okay thanks 15:05:57 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-oojwlsvuspgghdnp] has joined #lisp 15:06:04 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 15:06:52 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:01 but here i need indeed #. :) 15:07:18 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:10:55 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:51 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:17:06 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:00 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:22:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-207-44.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:22:13 -!- netfrog [~gaim@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has left #lisp 15:23:18 netfrog [~netfrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #lisp 15:28:23 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.162.169] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:28:41 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-73-220.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 15:30:26 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:42 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:44 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:07 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:35:17 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:53 sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:59 -!- echo-area [~user@123.120.245.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:02 francogrex [~user@109.130.29.234] has joined #lisp 15:41:51 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118563 15:41:55 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:07 pls help me make this better optimised 15:42:23 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:43:05 don't use subseq 15:43:57 francogrex: what stassats says (parse-integer has :begin and :end), but what do you expect? 15:43:58 ok; other things to improve to make go faster 15:44:10 francogrex: did you use a profiler to find out where your performance is going? 15:44:52 i was thinking of the sbcl profiler, but fpor that I need to profile functions rioght 15:45:21 milanj [~milanj_@212.200.217.3] has joined #lisp 15:45:22 francogrex: i don 15:45:38 francogrex: i don't understand what you mean by "i need to profile functions" 15:45:48 making the code more intelligible helps too 15:46:23 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:29 I mean (sb-profile:profile function-name...) 15:46:48 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:47:31 francogrex: you could try the statistical profiler, too. 15:48:03 H4ns: I haven't used it before can you please show me how it is used 15:48:17 francogrex: also, your code is hard to read with all the cddr/cdr and setf'ing of lists. consider using better data structures. that'd make reviewing easier, too. 15:48:24 francogrex: it is documented in the sbcl manual. 15:48:28 M-x slime-sprof-start, M-x slime-sprof-report 15:49:33 ok because what I have used as profiler before was something like that: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118563#1 15:49:36 "for (foo bar date) in vals" is better than c[ad]+r hell 15:49:49 ok 15:50:49 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:14 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:52:06 francogrex: i might be missing something, but why don't you use (gethash (car i) table) instead of iterating over the whole hash table for each element? 15:52:18 -!- balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:53:56 ah... (I have no logical reponse to that!) 15:54:35 I will see how to avoid the iteration over the table 15:55:05 francogrex: also, why do you populate the table at all? 15:55:32 -!- lnostdal_ [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:56:12 that because I want later to do some stats on the table as such (maphash #'(lambda (k v) (when (car v) (setf (caddr v) (- (apply #'min (car v)) (cadr v))))) table) ... etc 15:57:23 first, write a function which will convert ("100341" "23130" "12-01-2010") to what you want 15:58:09 francogrex: you could use a struct instead of a list. that might be faster than repeated list traversals (c[da]*r) and also much more readable. 15:58:21 francogrex: i'm not sure if you find your code readable. i find it hard to read. 15:58:44 ok seems more logical to avoid populating the table 15:58:49 the code doesn't look PRO 15:59:00 my code is indeed hard to read 15:59:40 but I realize in addition to the many things you told me, that looping over the hash table is just stupid 16:03:27 guys I removed the loop over hash table like suggested and now it processed everything in 0.1 second! 16:03:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-207-44.monradsl.monornet.hu] has left #lisp 16:07:18 and I wrote a function to calculate the stats (within the hashtable) so all happens at once! 16:07:35 yay. fast lisp. 16:08:19 well, I was silly wondering but how come it's slow I'm using hash-tables, without realizing the obvious mistake 16:08:54 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 16:09:26 -!- trebor_home [~email@dslb-178-004-223-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:14 trebor_home [~email@dslb-178-004-223-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:05 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:12:37 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:15:55 francogrex: I would not expect for being the hash-keys and for being the has-values to provides the keys corresponding to the values. Are you sure that's what's specified? 16:16:04 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 16:17:36 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:17:41 pjb: yes I was exoecting that certainly ! 16:18:06 expecting 16:18:41 don't tell me it's not right! I already wrote a report and am about to submit based on that! 16:19:47 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19:57 francogrex: AFAIK, it's wrong. You would have to use the using clause to get synchronicity. 16:20:24 -!- bryno [~bryno@unaffiliated/bryno] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:20:46 (loop for k being the hash-keys of table for v being the hash-value of table (print (list k v))) the k and v do not corresponding? 16:21:07 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:09 so I replace being by using and it can fix it? 16:21:11 Nothing says it will. 16:21:23 Check the syntax. 16:21:36 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:21:39 francogrex: you could just use maphash 16:21:54 It would be simplier, yes. 16:22:12 or with-hash-table-iterator 16:22:43 *francogrex* having hypertension... but at least someone enlightened me before submitting the report! 16:23:04 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:23:04 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:26:36 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:24 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:52 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:28:37 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:30:07 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 16:30:54 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 16:30:54 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 16:30:54 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:34:43 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 16:35:34 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:37:22 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:37:30 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:37:52 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:38:04 oconnore [~eric@50.10.172.212] has joined #lisp 16:39:37 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:42:34 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:47 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 16:43:55 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:43:56 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:21 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:47 yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-3-70.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:44:52 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 16:45:01 -!- prip [~foo@host14-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:45:18 prip [~foo@host14-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:46:00 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:08 if you must use loop, you can just do (loop for k being the hash-keys of table for v = (gethash k table) do ...) 16:46:39 errr 16:47:06 why not (loop for k being the hash-keys of table using (hash-value value)? 16:47:08 ) 16:47:59 yeah, that'd be better. Frankly, they're all pretty awful 16:48:09 I must not use loop but i did use it wrongly; so good to know the correct way to use it anyway. Thanks 16:49:42 whats the idiomatic way to map over every nth item of a sequence? 16:51:51 depends on the sequence 16:52:46 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 16:52:57 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:56 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:54:05 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:54:24 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-oojwlsvuspgghdnp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:56:09 Kanon [~opera@LLagny-156-34-16-32.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:56:55 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 17:00:21 -!- thom_ [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:02:57 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:37 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@69.38.216.3] has joined #lisp 17:07:27 I was thinking mainly of a list 17:08:14 -!- vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:08:42 If the N is small, then 17:08:47 (loop for i in '(1 2 3 4 5) by #'cddr do (print i)) 17:09:33 (loop for x in list by (lambda (list) (nthcdr n list)) ...) 17:10:27 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.163.246.88] has joined #lisp 17:13:52 ntcdr is handy.. 17:13:58 nthcdr, I mean 17:16:26 -!- RaceCond1tion [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: asdf] 17:16:34 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.61.203.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 17:16:57 vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 17:18:39 -!- zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:19:31 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:52 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:23:49 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@69.38.216.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:26:59 Phoodus 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[~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-237.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:12:25 wanderingelf [~user@c-71-61-22-64.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:20 good morning 19:13:59 hi antifuchs 19:14:56 valium97682 [~daniel@187.57.16.213] has joined #lisp 19:15:50 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.236.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:18:28 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:19:50 mascotte [mascotte__@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-23-249.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:21:53 -!- valium97682 is now known as valium97582 19:22:17 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:41 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:23:36 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:51 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:25:16 amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:31 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:26:09 what happened to mudballs? 19:26:22 mudballs.com seems to be a parked domain now 19:26:44 is the mudballs project dead? 19:27:02 I think quicklisp has won. 19:28:32 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-185.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:28:47 it is the feral cat to the other lisp installation systems' Kakapo. 19:29:06 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:49 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:00 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:32:08 amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:55 speaking of quicklisp, can someone explain to me why in order to have a package be installable with quicklisp, the developer has to ask the quicklisp project people to do it? 19:33:23 because otherwise it won't be added? 19:33:24 isn't a more decentralized system more desirable? 19:33:37 pattern: decentralization is possible iwth quicklisp, but not documented yet 19:33:37 not unless you want to get into web of trust insanity 19:33:47 dlowe: i understand that.. i'm just wondering why the system was designed to be so centralized 19:34:01 you could ask the same of linux distros 19:34:02 ah... it's about trust 19:34:11 and convenience. 19:34:17 pattern: right now, to get into the /quicklisp dist/, you have to open an issue with quicklisp. there will be more dists as the dist mechanism becomes better understood. 19:34:23 pattern: It is decentralized, actually  anyone can create a dist that lists the packages/versions that are available. The quicklisp "people" just manage the default dist. 19:34:34 ...and as soon as xach implements crytpo verification of packages. 19:34:49 then we can have our web of trust nightmare back (-: 19:34:55 Wait, wasn't it the idea that systems in quicklisp are somewhat cross-checked for interopability? 19:35:16 (and the nightmare of unreachable hosts, I guess, but with s3 that is pretty much a solved problem) 19:35:22 tcr: sure. that's what the quicklisp dist is about. 19:35:23 tcr: Yes  and other dists may have more or less strict ideas of that. 19:35:25 I thought that was one of its design goals  which would answer pattern's question 19:35:43 EG, a company might actually make sure that all their software builds before updating their dist with new versions. 19:36:07 well, the web of trust is pretty broken.. that's clear enough to me... signed tar files and whatnot are worthless unless users actually care enough to verify the signatures.. and i doubt most (any?) do 19:36:09 that sounds like a useful thing 19:36:44 I think Xach makes sure that all of the systems load without conflict, but doesn't actually do more extensive testing (yet) 19:36:44 so quicklisp has a development crew nowadays? 19:36:58 pattern: we have no idea yet how this will work. it's something that'll be possible in the near future. but today, opening an issue is the way to get into quicklisp. 19:37:00 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 19:37:10 tcr: crew of one! 19:37:24 You keep on talking of "we" :-) 19:37:41 "we" the community around ql. 19:37:46 tcr: It's the lisp community! 19:38:24 antifuchs: i understand that's how quicklisp works.. and i'm not pushing for change, much less proposing anything concrete that's different... i was just trying to understand why it was designed the way it was and why the developers of the apps themselves couldn't be the ones to upload/maintain them in the quicklisp system 19:38:30 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:38:53 pattern: well, ql is designed around dists. for now, it supports only that one dist with any convenience for the dist maintainer or the user. 19:39:19 but I predict the number of dists will definitely go up as soon as making one enters supported status (: 19:39:27 (I know at least one dist that I'd love to make) 19:39:41 pattern: interopability 19:39:43 amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:45 antifuchs: Yeah, I might make a few :) 19:40:07 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:41:33 antifuchs: i guess i'm not really talking so much about the creation of different distributions as trying to understand why individual developers weren't given more of a role in maintaining the current distribution 19:42:10 why couldn't, say, a developer just upload a tar file containing whatever information quicklisp requires to get it working 19:42:16 pattern: I think that will come as soon as Xach has gathered enough data about how maintenance and usage works 19:42:25 it's all a big experiment, and it's still in beta 19:42:27 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-22-211-18.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:42:33 ah, i see 19:42:39 I'm sure Xach doesn't intend this to be a one-man show for ever (: 19:42:55 (I guess he'd be insane to do that) (: 19:43:16 Not to say that he's not insane  19:43:37 another question i had about quicklisp is what does the developer of a given app do when he's created a new version of his app? 19:43:41 it was insane to attempt ql to begin with (-: 19:44:00 will he have to post again to the quicklisp github page? 19:44:03 pattern: you do know there is a #quicklisp channel, too, right? 19:44:07 nope 19:44:11 pattern: I think for now, that's wait for the dist update, or open an issue requesting the new version be included 19:44:22 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:44:30 Oh heh  I assumed this was all happening in #quicklisp  I never know what channel I'm in :) 19:44:35 (oops) 19:44:40 same here, sellout (-: 19:44:49 hargettp: thanks.. i'll direct further questions there... 19:44:51 pattern: altho, to be fair...if Xach's not here, he's not on #quicklisp atm either lol :) 19:44:59 pattern: just future reference ;) 19:46:58 adu [~ajr@64.134.242.100] has joined #lisp 19:48:24 a custom ql dist would be a great way to maintain one's personal lisp installation "in the cloud" 19:48:46 timor [~timor@port-92-195-191-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:54 I feel smart, but this is probably old hat for the #quicklisp denisens :) 19:49:52 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-73-220.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:50:51 heh 19:51:30 it is: I'm looking forward to making dists for my own web services (: 19:52:48 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:03 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:54:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:57:26 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58:52 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:59:14 tmh [635b0c15@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 19:59:24 Greetings lispers! 19:59:47 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:00:55 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-191-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:20 tmh: hello! 20:02:55 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:03:36 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756a08.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:46 -!- osoleve [~osoleve@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:52 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@122.163.246.88] has quit [Quit: See you in another life.] 20:05:06 osoleve [~osoleve@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:16 -!- osoleve [~osoleve@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:17 http://groups.google.com/group/core-server/browse_thread/thread/abf90a4c4539983e 20:05:22 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:06:34 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:44 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 20:10:36 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:54 -!- splittist [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: For Sale: Parachute. Only used once, never opened, small stain.] 20:13:32 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:14:19 v0|d: ? 20:14:46 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-47.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:14:54 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 20:14:57 cmm: news:) 20:17:16 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:17:16 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 20:18:19 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 20:18:19 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 20:18:19 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 20:23:13 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.242.100] has quit [Quit: adu] 20:25:11 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-112-121.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 20:29:23 adu [~ajr@64.134.242.100] has joined #lisp 20:30:23 astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-35-147.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 20:30:47 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:32:00 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:32:26 sabalabas [~sabalaba@67-194-32-96.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 20:32:43 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:28 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.242.100] has quit [Client Quit] 20:33:30 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:33:55 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-112-121.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:34:27 adu [~ajr@64.134.242.100] has joined #lisp 20:35:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-47.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:21 dmytrish [~dmytrish@91.145.250.216] has joined #lisp 20:37:47 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:51 super` [~super_@pool-173-78-145-82.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:14 -!- super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:38:53 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 20:43:17 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:17 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:32 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:43:52 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 20:46:03 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-237.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:46:11 osoleve [~osoleve@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:55 ok, I'm retarded 20:47:08 im reading practical common lisp 20:47:17 and toying arround 20:47:40 i thought it would be cool to get some binary i/0 20:47:47 fml 20:48:09 read-byte s EVERYTHING CL has for binary io 20:49:16 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:49:27 Sikander [~userid@5356F49F.cm-6-7d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 20:49:28 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:49:33 petercoulton_ [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:34 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:42 -!- oconnore [~eric@50.10.172.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:49:50 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:12 oconnore [~eric@50.10.172.212] has joined #lisp 20:50:18 i mean, CL is great and all but .. really? 20:50:40 one single fucking byte writing/reading func is all the the standard considers appropiate 20:50:42 ? 20:50:58 amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:20 reimplementing your own fucking type system on top of bit twiddling with red/write-byte 20:51:36 and classes? 20:52:05 is that the great allmighty "programmability" of lisp? 20:52:07 crod [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:52:24 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-237.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:52:31 fuck CL then 20:52:37 honestly 20:52:55 the standard has all kinds of bullshit unnecessary crap 20:53:07 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:53:09 and thers not even a standard way to do binary IO? 20:53:23 Sprayzor: that's a lot of anger there 20:53:27 Please go back under your bridge. 20:53:34 and there is a standard way to do binary IO. 20:53:42 not a fucking way to relate CL types aith read data unles you DITCH the type system as a whole and roll your own? 20:53:49 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:53:52 yeah 20:54:00 read/write-byte 20:54:13 or read-sequence 20:54:14 "standard" 8 bits 20:54:19 ofc 20:54:25 what's the problem with that? 20:54:31 unless you want to get anything usefull of that sequence that is 20:54:44 sprayzor: I don't think you understand how CL works....one common pattern for reading / writing arbitrary types concerns implementing readers and printers...there are chapters on that in the Hyperspec 20:54:57 Sprayzor: what useful things do you want to do? 20:55:00 how can you read -->operate on --->write back any non 8 bit integer? 20:55:08 binary-types. 20:55:15 without fucking arround with your own integer type 20:55:22 somebody was here yesterday, asking the exact same things you are asking right nwo 20:55:25 are you that person? 20:55:33 binary-types apparently is not in the standard.. 20:55:43 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 20:55:45 no, it's a library. 20:55:51 so no standard way 20:55:54 besides 20:56:00 well, htere is a standard way: do it yourself. 20:56:08 hahaha 20:56:20 binary types is a " oh lol the irony" type system ON TOP of a type system 20:56:29 *antifuchs* sighs 20:56:44 are you going to continue complaining that the free stuff you are getting is not good enough? 20:56:57 rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:03 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:57:20 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-143-239.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:26 because this conversation isn't very productive, and if the answer is yes, you're just wasting all our time. 20:57:34 nope im going to ask how the heck do people think thats sane 20:57:48 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:05 "roll your won" 20:58:08 own 20:58:09 what? that things don't work the way you expect them to? 20:58:15 me? 20:58:16 no 20:58:18 wrong 20:58:21 might wanna get used to it 20:58:32 CL doesnt work the way the non-autistic world works 20:58:33 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 20:58:42 thats what angers me 20:58:52 -!- Sprayzor [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has been kicked from #lisp by antifuchs (please calm down. feel free to play again.) 21:00:05 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:00:08 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:15 ok, constructive now 21:00:26 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:01:05 sprayzor: what problem are you trying to solve? that usually goes much better in here if you can articulate your problem...then folks help you find possible solutions :) 21:01:19 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.151.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:01:23 so far what i learnedis, you cant reliably map binary data to lisp types 21:01:33 beacuse internal representation might vary 21:01:41 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:02:13 so you cant just "read" x bits and fill an integer right? 21:02:20 that's not unique to Lisp...internal representations on x86 are different from ARM or PPC, for example 21:02:24 right. Just like you can't in most other languages. 21:02:55 and even in those where you can (like C) it's not portable. 21:03:06 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.151.78] has joined #lisp 21:03:18 luckily one recompiles -_- 21:03:24 sprayzor: what kind of integer are you thinking of? 21:03:40 clhs 12.1.1.3 21:03:41 whatever fomr 8 to 64 bits 21:03:41 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:03:53 Goddamn MIA bots. 21:04:11 so the suggested solution is 21:04:43 get some classes, roll your own types 21:05:03 use read/write-byte with bit twiddilng 21:05:07 amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:20 and map types into byte vectors 21:05:22 sprayzor: not necessarily. there are libraries that often solve the problem for particular domains 21:05:31 now, operae on that types instead 21:05:40 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 21:05:42 if you really want to do it "like c", you can use an FFI. 21:05:43 Well, arbitrary structures can be represented as arbitrary sequences of bits, mostly... 21:05:52 also, check the Hyperspec link attempted above: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/12_aac.htm 21:05:53 ny 21:05:58 yep but.. 21:06:22 even if you get a representation of the , lets say 16 bit integer you want 21:06:34 in a bit array 21:06:38 to do it "like C", you have to use C. Not CL, nor Java, nor Python, ... 21:06:39 or in a byte array 21:06:45 wrong 21:06:52 python has struct and pack 21:06:59 builtin 21:07:14 not redundant type implementing 21:07:15 really? Do the work on Jython? IronPython? 21:07:18 but anyway 21:07:57 even if you write the 2 bytes you want and get them together, waht can you do with that? 21:07:59 sprayzor: if that it's not "builtin" is an obstacle to using CL, then the language is not for you...Python made a conscious choice to have "batteries included" 21:08:02 read* 21:08:21 sprayzor: C doesn't have an HTTP client in stdlib...are you going to abandon C, too? 21:08:21 thats not waht frsutrates me 21:08:24 Sprayzor: "The" end-all be-all library for binary decoding/encoding has not emerged yet. Your lamentation of this fact has been duly noted. 21:08:55 but the fact that binary types and pretty much anything similar just makes nother type system 21:09:22 you cant use any CL already done unless its specific tot hat type you just read 21:09:56 I, for one, am in favor of multiple independent type systems when appropriate. 21:10:03 you read 2 bytes fuck arround with them and YET even if you got th 16 bits of data you want you cant apply any integer manipulation to them 21:10:52 sprayzor: you still haven't articulated the problem you want to solve...reading/writing binary data is often part of a solution, not an actual problem 21:10:52 unless you parse them, that is 21:10:52 Sprayzor: https://gist.github.com/266945 or https://github.com/death/dbus/blob/master/utils.lisp#L151 21:10:58 Sprayzor: it's better to write code than to complain 21:10:58 Sprayzor: Uh, what? You can just read those 16 bits and transform them into a proper CL integer... 21:11:40 yep and do that for every type , in and out 21:12:02 sprayzor: um, that's called actual programming...as opposed to the coddling that happens in Python/Ruby/Java 21:12:04 That's the nature of the infinite possibilities of binary representations. 21:12:41 Like, how would you represent the string "Hello" in binary?... 21:12:54 depends on encoding 21:13:00 ascii? 21:13:25 but wait 21:13:30 etenil [~user@93-96-0-153.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:13:38 Evening 21:13:57 the CL way says you shold createa new string type and a host of new functions beacuse those things you read might not be proper chars 21:14:21 It could be null-terminated, it could be preceded by a byte telling the length, or multiple bytes, or a number of bytes specified in some header somewhere, or an arbitrary number of bytes where the lower 7 bits of the first byte is the first part of the length and the 8th bit tells if another byte is used for a bigger length.... 21:14:24 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:14:28 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@67-194-32-96.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:14:36 And that's even before considering the encoding of each character. 21:15:10 oh but the problem here is different 21:15:17 you already have the data 21:15:30 and yuo KNOW how it is represented 21:15:43 but you cant rely on standard types 21:15:50 beacuse the representation might not match 21:16:10 I'm having some trouble with a loop. I'm basically iterating on each line of a file and if a line matches a given string, then I stop and set a variable to T. However, if I put the (string= line test) in the condition part of my DO, how can I set the variable to T? My full code's here: http://pastebin.com/2ehvPagE 21:16:11 sprayzor: you're mistaken if you think you actually can in C, in truly portable or distributed applications 21:16:19 Sounds like the reading id3 tags from gigamonkeys book then. 21:16:31 amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:04 etenil: Your paste seems to have expired or something. Try paste.lisp.org. 21:17:09 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-32-96.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 21:17:12 http://pastebin.com/YP4KUZJg 21:17:16 sry 21:18:27 What does the DO return? 21:18:51 oh cat problems again >< 21:19:17 schmrkc: you prefer dogs? 21:19:35 sacho [~sacho@90.154.217.231] has joined #lisp 21:21:00 etenil: Replace (string= line today) by (setf date-exists (string= line today)) 21:21:17 so instead of saying " here take this bits and pretend its a integer" you have to make a func for each specific representation of the type? 21:21:40 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:21:43 Hexstream: thanks 21:22:03 Sprayzor: There are different ways to go about it... 21:22:12 Programming is hard. Let's go shopping! 21:22:42 sprayzor: yes, you do...unless you know specifically what platform(s) your code will run on...or you don't mind using one of the higher-level libraries for your problem domain 21:23:12 How can you define a method that specializes on a type (defined with deftype) instead of a class? 21:23:39 Sikander: not possible, sorry 21:23:51 well, possible, if your CLOS supports custom specializers 21:23:53 Sikander: You can't. Methods are specialized on classes and identity (eql) only. 21:23:54 sprayzor: but your concern is not unique to CL...so your frustration at CL specifically seems unwarranted 21:24:52 -!- etenil [~user@93-96-0-153.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:24:56 dammit 21:25:16 k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:41 well my frsutration is not so much for the solving of the problem as it is fo the lack of a standard way to do it 21:25:56 i feel the same about perl really 21:26:26 perl has pack, just like python 21:26:34 TIMTOWDY fine, but at least one is going to be the most convenient 21:26:43 and unpack 21:27:04 pattern: 21:27:11 Oops. 21:27:12 though the discussion of them should probably continue in #perl 21:27:27 But it won't automagically figure out the meaning of arbitrary bits, will it? 21:27:36 of course not 21:27:37 nope 21:27:54 but you tell it i want 32 bits as an integer and you get an integer 21:28:15 besides 21:28:21 its builtin 21:28:35 so what? 21:28:45 my guess is that if you did that in python or perl it would crawl 21:29:00 Sprayzor: did you miss the links I gave you? 21:29:03 One of the strengths of CL is that you can have built-in-equivalent integration of non-built-in features. 21:29:56 So I'm not worried that the end-all be-all library of packing/unpacking will emerge at some point. 21:30:11 (with-open-file (f "file-of-bits" :element-type '(signed-byte 32)) (read-byte f)). You now have an integer. 21:30:25 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:20 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@pool-71-174-137-226.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:31:37 so you open the file for every different sized read? 21:31:48 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-137-226.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:33 Sprayzor: You might be interested in flexi-streams. 21:33:39 Or if you want quick-and-dirty, just use print and read. 21:34:11 print and read use text i think 21:34:20 Assuming the format you're trying to read/write is not binary in the first place... 21:36:01 k04n_ [~kn@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:24 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: gone] 21:37:45 print and read use text, true. But what's the problem with that? 21:39:04 either you have to read/write a specific binary format - and then you'll have to write your own code to do it in any language, unless you're lucky enough that that format is compatible with what C spits out on that platform 21:39:23 or you don't care about the format, and then text is just fine 21:44:12 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-160-215.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 21:45:45 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.145] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 21:45:51 RenardP [~chatzilla@modemcable209.113-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:47:07 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:47:33 -!- xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db9681d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: xraycat] 21:47:44 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@69.38.216.3] has joined #lisp 21:47:48 -!- k04n_ [~kn@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:48:19 amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:48 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 21:50:28 francogrex [~user@109.130.29.234] has joined #lisp 21:51:35 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.242.100] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:52:02 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 21:52:53 Soulman1 [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:16 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:54:00 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-137-226.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:58:16 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@69.38.216.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:59:59 does anyone here have any thoughts about xcvb? 22:00:24 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.132.189] has joined #lisp 22:00:27 -!- Sikander [~userid@5356F49F.cm-6-7d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:02:42 lnostdal [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:51 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:05:01 DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:05:01 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 22:05:01 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 22:05:04 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:05:45 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:08:28 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:09:04 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:11:30 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:12:06 -!- milanj [~milanj_@212.200.217.3] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:12:55 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:26 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:14:27 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 22:14:29 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:15:48 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:16:47 -!- astalla [~astalla@dynamic-adsl-94-36-35-147.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 22:18:51 I feel that ASDF is hopeless. 22:19:09 why? 22:19:19 But that's a point of view of a person, who has to deal with the meta-level of ASDF. 22:19:25 ah lol 22:20:08 It's defined in such a way, that's amenable to nondeclarative use. 22:20:28 what's the best alternative to asdf? 22:20:37 pnq [~nick@AC816E8F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:13 There's none, in the short term. 22:21:29 and it's widely used 22:21:33 Well, it depends on what's your intended usage scenario. 22:21:54 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:22:05 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:22:15 In fact, ASDF _forces_ you to use it non-declaratively. 22:22:19 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 22:22:55 Because its shortcomings are so many. 22:23:19 -!- Aisling_ [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:23:34 The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:24 XCVB seems like it could fix a significant subset of these. 22:24:41 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:24:47 deepfire: what are the top 3 shortcomings that you see of ASDF? 22:25:02 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e7d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:14 hargettp, I'm not the average ASDF user you probably intend to ask. 22:25:25 hi 22:25:37 deepfire: I figured...that's why I asked...thought you might have some insight :) 22:26:18 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.181.209] has joined #lisp 22:26:26 hargettp, you probably got me wrong. 22:26:37 Actually, likely. 22:26:44 deepfire: no worries then :) 22:27:11 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-237.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo_] 22:27:27 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-32-96.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:27:46 hargettp, all I see is that a multitude of projects use read-time constructs, EVAL-WHEN, ASDF:OOS ASDF:LOAD-OP, REQUIRE, etc. in .asd files. 22:28:24 deepfire: does that seem risky or non-deterministic? 22:28:25 I didn't bother (yet) with determining a system behind these transgressions. 22:28:37 juanjo once did a survey of how many cliki-available packages did that 22:28:49 the majority didn't resort to stupid stuff like this. 22:28:52 (IIRC) 22:29:07 Of course, but I feel the pain none the less. 22:29:30 the pain is what making lisp installation things is about. 22:29:31 And you cannot blame my methods -- any serious meta-level tool will suffer the same./ 22:29:58 would be fun to have one big lisp file, and just rename it to .asd. Does that even work? 22:29:59 antifuchs, that's a larger problem 22:30:24 prxq: so that find-system would load it? 22:30:28 sure would work (: 22:30:31 antifuchs, static analysis of system dependencies is a strictly smaller problem 22:30:48 antifuchs: kind of a shortcut asd :-) 22:30:48 antifuchs, but it, surprisingly, is hard enough 22:30:58 no kidding 22:31:21 deepfire: I have a bit of experience with dependency analysis in asdf under my belt 22:31:43 "it sucks" would be putting it mildly. but at least now there are people actively working to improve it. 22:32:30 i'm really surprised this hasn't been solved in the 50 years lisp has been around 22:32:30 antifuchs, unfortunately it's not solvable, because .asd files are defined to be LOAD-ed 22:32:42 antifuchs, and program analysis is impossible 22:32:54 in the general case, that is 22:32:58 pattern: it has been solved over and over again, by different people, for different systems 22:33:05 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:33:17 but the idea of parallel compilation and all that modern stuff is pretty new (and in parts, incompatible with cl). so well. (: 22:33:26 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:33:36 pattern, I'm not sure you really understand what kind of a problem we have here 22:33:51 i'm sure i don't 22:33:53 i'm new to lisp 22:34:00 deepfire: I don't either...only a few years into Lisp myself :) 22:34:01 but i've read some articles and threads about it 22:34:11 pattern, we want a package-management-like functionality, based on Makefile, so to speak 22:34:34 Well, a little more than just a Makefile, actually 22:34:49 but there have been hundreds of build systems already made 22:35:00 and they still keep making them 22:35:04 why not just use one of those and adapt it to lisp? 22:35:09 which means that nobody has built the perfect one yet :) 22:35:16 the base cases are solvable in a reasonable enough fashion 22:35:23 hasn't ocaml come up with a good solution for package management? (I just heard about it, and that they're called "functors"?) 22:35:36 -!- super` [~super_@pool-173-78-145-82.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:35:44 people keep comming up with crazy build requirements, though... 22:35:49 jdz: exactly. one day it'll all work (: 22:35:49 jdz: not necessarily... programmers' tastes are fickle and they are prone to following fads... the best system may have been created, but just not adopted for silly reasons 22:36:09 pattern: that sounds familiar 22:36:22 I'm really sad that Xach ignores desire. 22:36:40 Quicklisp is all fun and good, but we need automation. 22:36:53 where "we" is you and...? 22:36:54 AIUI, Quicklisp rests upon his labor. 22:37:36 deepfire: so make desire a better Quicklisp :) 22:37:44 what's desire? url? 22:38:07 i think it's a noun 22:38:25 -!- mascotte [mascotte__@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-23-249.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:38:26 I think it's http://www.feelingofgreen.ru/shared/src/desire/doc/overview.html 22:38:31 I'd prefer that we enslave machines, rather than Xach :-) 22:39:46 antifuchs, do you honestly suggest that we oughtn't make things "just work"? 22:40:00 I would be very pleased if things "just worked" 22:40:14 I totally agree that QL is a giant step ahead. 22:40:33 But we should have a better meta-level, IMO. 22:40:43 usability is a hugely beneficial feature...and QL has it, for the problems it solves 22:40:45 I have no idea what that means 22:41:12 deepfire: and what use-cases do you think are either unsolved or not solved well? 22:41:28 Xach has a clear idea of what (commonly encountered) use-cases he is going to make easy...and doing it 22:41:46 from what i understand, quicklisp still uses asdf for compilation and dependency generation 22:42:02 antifuchs, repository-level information should be first-class, which would allow to use the same terms for 1) development, 2) testing, 3) deployment 22:42:12 antifuchs, holistic vision man 22:42:50 quicklisp is user-oriented 22:42:52 pattern: don't let this chatter fool ya, ASDF is still the gold standard...within its own limitations...hence QL (like many pieces of the CL universe) use it :) 22:43:05 doesn't make it can't be improved / replaced, of course :) 22:43:08 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:43:11 Good morning everyone! 22:43:29 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:38 It's good to be user oriented, but we want a continuous development->testing->packaging->deployment system. 22:43:51 This way the benefits are maximised. 22:44:09 one simple user interface improvement that could be made: 22:44:14 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:16 make packages easily installable from a shell 22:44:19 hi beach 22:44:26 pattern, QL does that 22:44:28 not require the builder to fire up a lisp repl and type arcane commands in to ti 22:44:28 it 22:44:29 pattern: QL does that...it's why he's doing that 22:44:45 pattern: ASDF-Install tries....but is very dependent on well-behaved package maintainers 22:45:01 desire also sort-of does that, actually, but it's a teensy bit more heavy (and _much_ less portable) 22:45:36 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:38 hargettp: QL does that? according to the instructions here: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/#installation you have to type commands in to a lisp repl 22:45:48 I still need to do the porting thing -- I use a lot of system-dependent stuff, by necessity. 22:45:49 like: (ql:system-apropos "vecto") 22:45:53 pattern: oh sorry, sure; though "command line" == REPL :) 22:45:57 *thought 22:46:02 -!- wanderingelf [~user@c-71-61-22-64.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:46:15 hargettp: i said from a shell 22:46:26 pattern: indeed :) 22:46:46 -!- jdz [~jdz@host195-105-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:46:59 amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:23 of course, this is very minor issue... but as a minor issue it should be easy to fix.. 22:47:35 As an example, desire had a continuous testing facility, a year ago, with no less than 200+ CL packages. 22:47:44 Adlai_ [~leif@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:52 deepfire, yet it didn't become popular. 22:47:53 pattern: actually, you are right...in the common case, it would be easy to create simple shell scripts that basically fire up a lisp and run one or a few QL forms 22:47:58 so something was wrong with desire. 22:48:03 QL is dead-easy to setup and use. 22:48:14 a one-liner to install and then (ql:quickload "foo") to get a package. 22:48:24 tic, it's _not_ focused on the user side 22:48:34 deepfire, then screw desire. 22:48:38 It can do the user side. 22:48:44 right, but it does it crappily 22:48:47 deepfire: remember, the user in this scenario is a Lisp developer 22:48:48 tic, do I irritate you? 22:48:55 tic, you seem to be irritated 22:49:10 deepfire: and if aren't focused on your developer's "user experience"--forget it, sorry, that's how it works 22:49:32 hargettp, sorry, it's the only way to get usable lisp software 22:49:41 deepfire: This is the first I've heard about Desire. Pehaps lack of adoption has resulted partly from lack of knowledge. 22:49:47 hargettp, sources, man 22:50:08 deepfire, no, you don't. I'm not irritated either. (screw might be harsh). What I'm aiming is that people don't think desire is usable, they won't use it. And obviously, that is what happened. Even though the "backend" might be heaven, it still looks very complicated from the end-user perspective... which is me! If I'm not going to use it, what good is the backing store? 22:50:29 tic, I totally understand that. 22:50:33 deepfire: um, QL for one...Debian APT for another (beat RPM)...I've worked on commercial products where we spent an entire product cycle just to get the initial 5 minute user experience with the product just right 22:50:36 deepfire, right. so what's the argument here? :) 22:50:41 tic, I only need mind share of 1-2 fellow people 22:50:55 tic, I don't need wast hordes chasing me 22:50:59 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.181.209] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:51:09 tic, I'm fucking alone against a non-trivial task 22:51:10 tic: if it's complicated but does the job, simpler interfaces could be built on top of it to make it easier to use 22:51:13 *prxq* didn't hear of desire either 22:51:24 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 22:51:28 And dare I suggest that desire is conceptually more complicated than QL. 22:51:37 pattern, true, and yet, that hasn't happened. someone might come up with a QL front-end to Desire. 22:51:40 deepfire: I respect your passion and goals...but you've heard what it take to persuade a few of us to "join your cause"...up to you to do it :) 22:52:03 hargettp, I wrote 10x the documentation that Xach did 22:52:22 And the subjects I covered are much more complicated. 22:52:23 I find the documentation of Desire very hard to read. 22:52:27 deepfire: that might be interpreted to mean a lot of different things 22:52:34 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:34 deepfire: I understand, and I'm sorry it's gone unused...but Xach got it simple enough that 1 page of documentation was enough to start using QL...that's the bar 22:52:38 never gets to the point. 22:52:41 tic: it not having happened yet might not indicate any kind of deficiency in the tool... (btw, i'm not a fan of desire... i hardly know what it is myself) 22:52:52 -!- tmh [635b0c15@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 22:53:17 pattern, deficiency by definition, however, the deficiency might not be technical. but non-adoption is rarely a lack in the technical side. 22:53:40 rather acceptance not happening, for whatever reason. in this case, ease of use. 22:53:56 how do you know that's the reason? 22:54:16 I'd put "ease of use" in the category of "technical side"... 22:54:18 sounds like most people here just haven't heard of it 22:54:21 imho, simplicity is one of the hardest things to engineer--and one of the best 22:54:24 Okay, I was guessing. 22:54:38 but it seems that way from what I've read about desire and from my usage of quciklisp. 22:55:20 sea4ever [~sea@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 22:55:22 hargettp: "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time." -- Blaise Pascal 22:55:37 rien_: nice :) 22:55:41 rien_, do, please show me where QL solves the problems Desire does? 22:55:53 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:55:53 rien_, desire solves the problems QL does, but crappily 22:56:09 *rien_* was put into the fire unbeknownst to him! 22:56:28 deepfire: hey, taking pot shots at QL is not gonna convert anyone to your cause :) 22:56:44 deepfire: again, a sentence that can be interpreted in a lot of ways. 22:56:45 I just clear some apparent misconceptions. 22:57:00 *sykopomp* installs QL twice, just to antagonize. 22:57:04 deepfire: maybe the problem was wrong. 22:57:10 :) 22:57:11 prxq, maybe 22:58:10 QL is the best thing that happened to CL in the last year and a half. 22:58:32 sykopomp: did you do those quick QL installs on different CL implementations, just for fun? :) 22:58:38 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:40 But I blame the collective "us" for shortsightedness. 22:59:03 I'm not articulate enough to explain what I propose to make, apparently. 22:59:14 deepfire: simple things require a special kind of sharpness 22:59:30 deepfire: that's quite okay; common problem of us engineers :) 22:59:33 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 23:00:18 jonte [~jonte@oiuvbty.ght.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 23:00:31 hargettp: I have 5 different CL implementations installed on my system. You bet I did. 23:00:41 i mean, it is really hard to come up with simple things that get the balance just right. 23:00:41 sykopomp: lol 23:00:55 hm. Actually, I think I have 6. 23:00:59 :) 23:01:05 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:08 yes. 6. 23:01:10 prxq, in my case I want maximum completeness, which is just too hard 23:01:24 deepfire: I'm confident any significantly-better-enough solutions will rise to the top without need of significant active arguing. 23:01:35 deepfire: and might be way too much. 23:01:52 Hexstream, man you sounds like you've had enough of me ;-) 23:01:52 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 23:01:57 I'm surprised no one has thrown Worse Is Better into the fray yet. 23:02:03 *deepfire* is a little drunk 23:02:09 sykopomp: we were waiting for you 23:02:21 deepfire: Well, just sharing a lesson I learned recently. 23:02:28 prxq: how nice of you! <3 23:03:28 prxq, I don't know, I think it's built-in into me, I tend to shoot painfully above my capabilities 23:03:30 Hexstream: in what context did you learn it? It seems to me that it isn't often that things are abandoned in favor of better things. 23:03:54 The lesson is: make your thing ever better until it's so insanely great that it's impossible to ignore. 23:04:00 deepfire: we all do; but the key is balancing the achievable with what we dream 23:05:14 deepfire: only smart piece of advice I ever gave a junior engineer (not to imply you are--no idea) was "you can't make any single project perfect; perfection is only built over the course of a career, with each new project reaching closer than the last to perfection" 23:05:19 koning_r1bot: The world is indeed filled with tons of depressing counter-examples. Like Dvorak VS Qwerty, but let's not go there ;P 23:05:29 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:30 god, I hate being an old coot...talk too much :) 23:05:43 Hexstream: that might not be a workable avenue, you know? Sometimes, admitting defeat and moving on is the most profitable route 23:06:14 hargettp, I'm still pretty young, so your advice is likely spot-on 23:07:12 deepfire: then be easy on yourself :) 23:07:30 hargettp, but you imply that perfection is a plausible quantity, in the context of desire, which is rather far from truth 23:07:40 desire sucks 23:07:47 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-190-236-169.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 23:07:55 so dump it and move on :) 23:08:04 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 23:08:05 ^^ 23:08:11 prxq: Yes, well, what I meant mostly is that if something is unsuccessful with little active arguing, it's unlikely to become a runaway success with a lot of active arguing. Up the intrinsic value of your project as much as possible, and if you determine you can never reach a high enough value, then it's time to consider something else... 23:08:39 Hexstream, do you see me here arguing often about desire? 23:09:08 Don't get me wrong... 23:09:10 It's the longest talk I ever had about it. 23:09:19 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A725F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:21 By a huge margin. 23:10:19 Probably I've misread you, sorry. 23:10:31 pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 23:10:41 I'm just trying to spare you some needless frustrations. I know what it feels like to try really hard to make people care about something. 23:10:53 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:10:58 -!- jonte [~jonte@oiuvbty.ght.sgsnet.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:11:24 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: zzz] 23:11:50 prxq, I have a couple of people who take it pretty seriously, but only touch it tangentially 23:11:50 Ow, sorry, Hexstream, not prxq. 23:11:53 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-160-215.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:12:30 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:12:37 deepfire: You have a userbase > 1. I'd like to have that ;P 23:12:38 deepfire: the way of the lisper is filled with experiences like this. 23:12:47 Hexstream, frustration is unavoidable, I think. Intestinal vigor is paramount, in any case. 23:12:50 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 23:12:59 prxq, : -) 23:13:35 Sorry I talk too much. 23:13:51 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:24 deepfire: There are enough unavoidable frustrations as it is, one doesn't need the needless frustrations... 23:15:51 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:08 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:10 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 23:19:10 -!- pmurias [~pawel@89-75-37-59.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:19:16 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.29.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:21:35 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-116-183.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:25:19 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:50 -!- osoleve [~osoleve@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:44 -!- parkq [~parkq@209-6-20-163.c3-0.wrx-ubr3.sbo-wrx.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:43 parkq [~parkq@209-6-20-163.c3-0.wrx-ubr3.sbo-wrx.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:15 rswarbrick [rupert@compsoc.sunion.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:29:40 -!- Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-143.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 23:30:27 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e7d9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:30:30 -!- parkq [~parkq@209-6-20-163.c3-0.wrx-ubr3.sbo-wrx.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:47 Hi there. Quick question: I've got a website currently running on sbcl+hunchentoot on a shared server. There ain't much memory available and it only just fits, crashing occaisionally with an out of memory... Does anyone know if eg. running on ECL instead would be likely to help? Does drakma+hunchentoot run on ECL? Would the memory requirements be significantly less? 23:31:25 The reason I'm asking rather than trying is that it's quite a few hours of work to port the thing from some sbcl-specific code it uses & I wanted to know whether it's likely to be worth the effort... 23:31:33 parkq [~parkq@209-6-20-163.c3-0.wrx-ubr3.sbo-wrx.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:33:04 rswarbrick: hm....I run a site on sbcl + hunchentoot, and don't have memory issues....even with some terribly undertuned code of mine 23:33:38 rswarbrick: how much memory does it try to use when it crashes? 23:33:52 I *really* mean not much memory: I'm using --dynamic-space-size 95 and I think I've got 128mb in total. 23:33:56 On a 64-bit machine. 23:35:26 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36:13 *hargettp* is busy checking the memory usage on his server 23:37:24 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:37 Just checked: a resident size of 55mb, with 24mb SHR (not that I can remember what that means) 23:38:17 -!- vokoda` [~user@host109-153-58-110.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:55 rsawbrick: yeah, mine is running around 50MB (did an upgrade this morning, so its probably a touch lower than usual) 23:39:10 if that's too much...hmm, not sure what to advise 23:39:45 The original question was whether this is likely to depend on the implementation. I don't mind porting to ECL or even CLISP if that's going to drop the memory usage... 23:40:25 rswarbrick: IMHO, SBCL is the best platform...do youhave custom code that perhaps needs tweaking? 23:41:45 "best"? What do you mean there? Fastest? Easiest to develop against? (I probably agree with both, but that's not what I'm trying to optimize! :-) 23:42:32 If you don't have much memory, can you run the 32-bit sbcl? 23:42:39 rswarbrick: lol! fair enough...I guess I am asserting that SBCL is likely going to be the platform that is best to tune for speed or consumption...mind you, I could be talking outta my ass...others may have other suggestions :) 23:42:53 s/consumption/memory consumption/ 23:43:04 Phoodus: Can you do that on a 64 bit system? (My laptop's 32 bit and I've never played much with swankier things!) 23:43:09 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:43:13 rswarbrick: should...are you on a LInux? 23:43:28 hargettp: On both systems, yes. Not root on the server though. 23:44:31 32-bit sbcl seems like a good idea; not much to lose 23:44:55 Can either of you tell me how to compile a 32-bit sbcl? 23:45:47 The manual can 23:45:54 rswarbrick: http://www.sbcl.org/getting.html 23:46:40 Riight. Thanks. 23:48:41 k04n_ [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:50 -!- RenardP [~chatzilla@modemcable209.113-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:50:39 I'm trying to make a program react nicely to a ctrl-c break. In plain sbcl something like this works: 23:50:56 (handler-case (foo) (SB-SYS:INTERACTIVE-INTERRUPT () (bar))) 23:51:02 -!- k04n [~k04n@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:14 However, I've no idea how to do a similar thing from within slime. 23:51:39 C-c C-c sends a (break), which is shown as simple-error, however putting simple-error into the handler-case doesn't do any good. 23:52:02 s/(break)/break/ 23:52:14 -!- paul0 [~user@189.114.196.159.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53:34 osoleve [~osoleve@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:17 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp