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It just prints a one-line error and quits. 00:37:00 ah nevermind, -on-error debug 00:37:02 thx 00:37:03 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.182] has quit [Client Quit] 00:37:31 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.182] has joined #lisp 00:38:31 p896gbm: i find it a bit easier to use slime and sbcl for more interactive debugging. 00:41:56 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.182] has quit [Client Quit] 00:43:12 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.133.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:10 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@223.Red-83-32-116.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: http://quasiquote.me] 00:47:35 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:20 Aladore [~Aladore@85.192.211.209] has joined #lisp 00:49:31 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.182] has joined #lisp 00:52:13 -!- jonte [~jonte@oiuvbty.ght.sgsnet.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:52:45 Genosh [~Genosh@113.Red-95-121-141.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:06 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has left #lisp 00:55:01 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:55:32 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483ADA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:57:54 -!- tcleval_ [bad50e1e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.213.14.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:58:30 kdr2 [~kdr2@221.220.251.59] has joined #lisp 00:59:38 tcleval_ [bad50e1e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.213.14.30] has joined #lisp 01:00:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:16 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:53 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:06:55 Anyone know if it's "monotonous predicate" or "monotonic predicate"? 01:06:56 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:43 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439968.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 01:07:44 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 01:08:01 -!- dfox [~dfox@e22.dkm.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:08:09 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:56 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 01:10:53 gigamonkey: AFAIK "monotonous" means boring, so I'd assume it's "monotonic" 01:12:39 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:32 fe[nl]ix: that was my assumption too. 01:13:43 But Google has some hits for monotonous too. 01:14:55 E.g. http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/384/higher-order-algorithms "Splitting a finger tree on a monotonous predicate" 01:15:05 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 01:17:45 -!- Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-106.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:18:57 tessier_ [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:32 hmm, quicklisp update... 01:19:39 thanks Xach! 01:21:56 Go try WuWei 01:22:49 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439968.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:25:31 Xach: is that in the new dist? 01:25:34 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-180-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:25:47 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:09 gigamonkey: yes, it is. 01:30:31 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:31:18 andrew007 [~andrew_zu@219.136.36.140] has joined #lisp 01:31:19 -!- Aladore [~Aladore@85.192.211.209] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:31:47 discoun [724f3372@gateway/web/freenode/ip.114.79.51.114] has joined #lisp 01:31:54 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:32:02 -!- cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:32:34 cibs [~cibs@Sylpheed.Math.NCTU.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 01:34:39 -!- andrew007 [~andrew_zu@219.136.36.140] has quit [Client Quit] 01:34:49 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 01:35:02 andrew007 [~andrew_zu@219.136.36.138] has joined #lisp 01:38:50 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:25 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:41:23 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-144-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:47 -!- csmax_ [~max@p5DE8CD52.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:42:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-205.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:42:47 -!- p896gbm [~nick@69-196-138-106.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 01:46:44 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:47:12 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B3279D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:47:19 daniel [~daniel@p5B3279D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:16 -!- H4ns``` [~user@p579F8E03.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:50:44 csmax [~max@p5DE8CD52.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:55 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-31.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:47 H4ns``` [~user@p579F8E03.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:59 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:54:19 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:54:34 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:20 quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:37 Park_Q [~parkq@209-6-20-163.c3-0.wrx-ubr3.sbo-wrx.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 02:02:29 how can I fetch only one of the values GET-DECODED-TIME returns? 02:03:19 valium97582: nth-value 02:03:21 johanbev [~johanbev@159.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:37 Xach: thanks. 02:05:56 -!- discoun [724f3372@gateway/web/freenode/ip.114.79.51.114] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:09:48 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@113.Red-95-121-141.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: http://quasiquote.me] 02:12:54 sohail1 [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:13 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:15:50 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:16:07 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:20:08 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:21:28 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:22:09 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 02:22:31 -!- tcleval_ [bad50e1e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.213.14.30] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:22:33 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 02:24:04 serichse` [~user@g228232246.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:25:35 -!- serichsen [~user@f049176051.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:29:24 -!- serichse` [~user@g228232246.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 02:32:52 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:35:36 I need to make the move to Quicklisp. 02:36:17 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:36:20 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 02:37:04 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:44:52 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:51:27 symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:02 ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has joined #lisp 02:53:16 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-31.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:37 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.34.53.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:02:30 spiaggia [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 03:02:45 G'day everyone! 03:06:14 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:07:12 lo 03:08:10 -!- xristos_ is now known as xristos 03:09:24 kerx [~kerx@38.118.129.34] has joined #lisp 03:11:32 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 03:12:33 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:52 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 03:16:19 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:16:23 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 03:16:26 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 03:17:45 -!- mehsiu [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/mehsiu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:19:15 timor1 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[~levgue@xdsl-78-35-144-175.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:35:41 /////// 03:35:44 -!- spiaggia [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:36:38 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:36:58 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:37:26 quasisan1 [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:26 phadthai_ [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:26 kerx [~kerx@38.118.129.34] has joined #lisp 03:37:26 incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:26 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 03:37:26 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 03:37:26 prip [~foo@host98-124-dynamic.36-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 03:37:26 HerbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:26 amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has joined #lisp 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[~buccia@www.inscatolati.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:25 adu [~ajr@pool-72-83-254-159.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:26 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:48:41 felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-224-13.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:02 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:16 pinkwerks [~pinkwerks@cpe-74-68-129-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:01:02 csmax_ [~max@p5DE8CD15.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:32 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:02:50 oconnore [~eric@50.10.172.212] has joined #lisp 04:03:14 hola. i want to print some debugging errors using the current function name in (format - how do i get ahold of things like the name, or perhaps line number of the file the function is defined in, or even it's line number? 04:04:07 -!- csmax [~max@p5DE8CD52.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:04:48 -!- kdr2 [~kdr2@221.220.251.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:05:49 In python you would do this with something like inspect.currentframe().f_back.f_lineno. 04:07:08 there might be something implementation dependant, and you can try to define a macro that would wrap around defun (and other special forms you want) and save the name into a special variable 04:07:39 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:07:39 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 04:07:39 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:07:44 p_l|backup: yes i guess i was wondering if there was some function in the spec that addressed this - or posix perhaps. 04:08:18 See __LINE__ etc. 04:08:56 Also, see __func__. 04:09:32 Zhivago: hmm that's weird this says different otherwise : http://common-lisp.net/project/lispfaq/FAQ/programming.html#id2520235 04:10:01 Oh, sorry. I thought I was answering a C question. 04:10:03 I guess i'm looking for something like (format "~A" __LINE__) 04:10:40 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:10:56 I'll look for some SBCL specific stuff and report back if I find something. 04:12:13 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 04:12:51 Is there some flag that makes SBCL better at reporting debug info? I thought I saw some flag in a tuturial somewhere - I admittedly still get a little lost using the debugger in terms of where in my file something is going wrong, just not the error condition itself. 04:16:24 pinkwerks: if you're using SLIME when you end up in the debugger you can usually jump to the source. 04:16:47 Line numbers are problematic in Lisp because not all code comes from a file. 04:17:29 Ah! well damn you just have to ask google the correct way : http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2007-12-19-pretty-sbcl-backtraces.html 04:18:00 -!- p_l|backup [~plasek@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:19:30 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:09 gigamonkey : yeah i gotta get down with more of the obscure key strokes 04:23:15 sluggo [~chris@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:46 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 04:24:24 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[~mansour@78.155.84.64] has joined #lisp 08:03:16 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:07:35 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-31-221.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:12 -!- fukamachi [~user@ckp0.ariel-networks.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:11:25 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-96-62.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:13:43 Joreji [~thomas@68-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 08:18:40 az [~az@perseus7.hs-niederrhein.de] has joined #lisp 08:20:31 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has joined #lisp 08:25:12 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:25:20 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:29:59 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:30:34 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:32:32 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:32:49 snearch [~snearch@f053004182.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:33:00 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:33:15 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:33:19 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 08:34:17 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 08:36:06 StephenFalken [email@89-180-154-196.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 08:37:03 -!- TR2N [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:37:40 splittist [~John@215.87.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:37:42 morning 08:39:10 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cdidgxvzrdcuyqgt] has joined #lisp 08:41:01 morning 08:46:19 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 08:46:19 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 08:46:19 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 08:49:17 I'm trying (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") but the response is 'No update available for "quicklisp 2010-12-07".' 08:53:12 Xach said that's normal, there's simply no update available. 08:54:14 oh ok, I thought there was according to http://blog.quicklisp.org/ 08:55:07 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:05:45 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:06:08 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.206.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:06:11 hmm, yes, seems so ... but it works for me: 09:06:20 Changes from quicklisp 2010-12-07 to quicklisp 2011-01-10: ... and a long list ... 09:07:08 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:07:58 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.163.251] has joined #lisp 09:08:34 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:57 -!- az [~az@perseus7.hs-niederrhein.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 09:17:11 lharc [~user@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 09:19:00 What was the name of the sbcl project that could serialize objects without going through print/read? 09:24:44 -!- xavierHart [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25:16 lharc: sb-heapdump? 09:25:22 also common-cold, maybe? 09:26:05 krystof: thanks alot! that was the name.. sounds like a contrib by the way. 09:26:14 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:29:22 lharc: there also is cl-store, i've heard that some people use that successfully 09:29:26 -!- H4ns``` is now known as H4ns 09:30:20 lharc: yes, I blame the author for not proactively beating me up all the time about merging it 09:30:24 I mean, what can you do? 09:30:47 prip [~foo@host14-132-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:33:04 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 09:38:49 Good afternoon everyone! 09:40:11 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:40:31 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:46:49 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.12.110] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:49:09 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-101-121.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:50:08 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 09:50:14 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-151.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:51:30 H4ns: thanks, I cant access sb-heapdump but cl-store looks nice. 09:57:45 beach: good afternoon 09:58:23 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 09:58:36 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:58:57 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 09:59:09 -!- yahooooo [~yahooooo@c-67-170-35-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:59:54 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-110-125.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:00:01 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-209.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:06:44 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:06:56 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E494.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:53 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:3] has joined #lisp 10:08:39 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:10:54 -!- H4ns [~user@p579F8E03.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:11:53 how should I print lisp code on paper? I need to include it in a latex paper (I'll probably do that in a verbatim statement) but I also need to return a complete print of the code... 10:12:23 I \usepackage{verbatim} and \verbatiminput{foo.lisp} 10:12:37 I don't much like how listings formats things (I much prefer cmrtt) 10:12:52 Krystof: that will be a pita for my documentation strings, as they are more than 40 characters wide 10:13:11 some code may be too wide as well 10:13:28 vgrind is supposed to undertand lisp, isn't it? (or am I thinking of the wrong thing) 10:13:41 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:14:12 splittist: looks like it understands lisp 10:14:16 *madnificent* didn't know vgrind 10:14:42 is there anything that will do some form of syntax highlighting for me as well? 10:14:50 {\small \verbatiminput{foo.lisp}} 10:15:02 -!- phadthai_ is now known as phadthai 10:15:04 the listings package does syntax highlighting 10:15:04 Krystof: that's just mean :P 10:15:25 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:15:34 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:16:17 (or lgrind, I guess) 10:16:26 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-110-125.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:16:45 *tcr* really wishes cffi groveler's forms were macros. So they had a docstring easily introspectible via C-c C-d d 10:16:45 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-110-125.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:16:48 madnificent: looks OK to me. For example, stuff at the end of http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/els2009/unportable.pdf 10:16:48 ah, I'm using clbuild2, which may explain why quicklisp can't update itself 10:17:42 Krystof: It still fails on even longer docstrings (but that'll be solved by vgrind, I guess) 10:18:13 it does look ok btw 10:18:20 carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.212] has joined #lisp 10:18:24 well, sure. Generally when I'm writing code for a paper I format the code so that it can be included directly as well as compiled directly 10:18:39 that way I am sure that what I get when I include the thing is an actually working version that could in principle be typed in 10:18:51 because it sucks to have something "clever" reformat everything. 10:19:00 The tradeoffs are different for snippets 10:19:39 Krystof: you're completely right... errors may sneak in and that's really sad 10:21:29 az [~az@perseus7.hs-niederrhein.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:56 thanks Krystof and splittist, this really helps me a lot 10:22:08 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118528 lispy dance lists 10:22:26 wait until i get ahold of opencv and cl-v4l2 :) 10:23:57 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:26:00 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-101-121.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:30:25 -!- _ism [~frinnn@i59F62DD6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:30:25 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:31:18 HG` [~HG@85.8.71.7] has joined #lisp 10:35:50 -!- thmzlt [~thomaz@24-217-48-63.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:40:10 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:40:22 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:44:25 spacebat: do you live behind a cache? 10:45:11 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.200.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:46:15 cmm [~cmm@109.65.200.120] has joined #lisp 10:48:47 Hello! I have simply line: (loop :for foo in '(1 2) :with bar = foo :do (print bar)). In the result I got nil nil. Can I use other keyword instead of with, to make this code work? 10:49:15 you should use finally (return ...) 10:49:23 or collect (...) 10:49:31 for 10:50:06 oh sorry, I misunderstood your "result" ... thought you meant the return value 10:50:34 mrSpec: like (loop for foo in '(1 2) for bar = (sqrt foo) do (print bar)) 10:50:51 -!- az [~az@perseus7.hs-niederrhein.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 10:51:00 o! thanks stassats 10:51:31 mrSpec: with is sort of an initial LET 10:51:36 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.226] has joined #lisp 10:52:00 ah, ok :) 10:52:37 stassats: whats the problem with keywords in loop? 10:52:44 they're ugly 10:52:57 why? 10:53:05 churib: because they're ugly 10:53:12 :) 10:55:23 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.132.165] has joined #lisp 10:55:31 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:01:42 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:36 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 11:04:08 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:04:21 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:10:37 xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db9531d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:55 is the "st" in Wittgenstein a ST or a SH? 11:11:31 dto: ? 11:11:45 dto: ST 11:11:47 shtein 11:11:55 jonte [~jonte@oiuvbty.ght.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 11:11:57 not stein, if you mean that 11:12:11 i mean the pronunciation 11:12:30 biTT [~frinnn@i59F6052C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:12:43 Oh 11:12:45 dto: yeah, that'd be whittgen-shtein, usually. 11:12:57 not Vittgen? 11:13:13 dto: hm. yeah, you're right. 11:13:18 dto: It is pronounced like "st", just the way it is pronounced in German. 11:13:25 so, vittgen-shtein 11:15:34 dto, try the "listen to" button (or what it's called in english) on http://translate.google.at/#de|de|Wittgenstein 11:15:42 might at least be funny 11:19:55 prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has joined #lisp 11:22:42 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-npyruxzyfrydfkmc] has left #lisp 11:22:59 not "shtain"? 11:23:15 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@201.102.88.209] has quit [Quit: ] 11:23:45 right, google agrees with me 11:24:07 tan 11:24:22 leo2007 [~leo@124.72.162.241] has joined #lisp 11:25:43 jdz: Is this an attempt to spell it so that if pronounced as if it were English, it sounds sort of right? 11:26:25 jdz: If so, "shtine" would be closer. 11:26:45 jup 11:27:46 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/De-Stein.ogg 11:29:01 -!- Joreji [~thomas@68-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:29:20 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:29:24 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 beach: right 11:30:44 sluggo_ [~chris@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:50 -!- sluggo [~chris@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:34:04 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:34:13 valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.236.179] has joined #lisp 11:36:31 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:37:33 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A8C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:12 marijnjh [~user@p5DDB3A32.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:22 -!- jonte [~jonte@oiuvbty.ght.sgsnet.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:44:01 so I took Splittist's review seriously and started reading Let Over Lambda 11:45:00 apparently, Common Lisp is divinely inspired, and right in every possible way, even those ways that, to the casual observer, seem wrong 11:45:05 -!- timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-58-62.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45:06 this is why Lispers don't get taken seriously 11:46:07 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:46:31 LOL is nice, once you skip from code-sample to code-sample. don't read anything in between 11:47:18 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:47:20 hrm, I've only looked at two chapters so far, maybe it gets better 11:53:52 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:55:01 marijnjh: Who says CL is divinely inspired? I thought the general agreement in the lisp world that CL was in dire need of fixing. 11:55:13 marijnjh: just maybe not the parts the "casual observer" thinks need fixing :) 11:56:48 schmrkc: if you'd read my message in context, you'd see that i was talking about Let Over Lambda 11:57:10 by the way, ALU wiki gives me a proxy error when I try to edit it 11:57:19 marijnjh: Oh ok. I don't think that showed up on my screen here. Sorry :) 11:57:41 marijnjh: I found that charming. I know the fashion is to show oneself as an advanced lisper by focusing on the shortcomings, but I think it's kind of nice to have the OTT 'patriotism'. 11:58:11 marijnjh: if it makes you feel any better, the last appendix is about how Emacs is a trap (: 11:58:57 splittist: when patriotism shows itself in cheap, misinformed swipes at other languages, it find it hard to take the speaker seriously 11:59:44 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:59:49 hippo [~kp@catv-89-133-26-94.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:00:05 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:02:04 darfox [~masjossy@41.223.4.33] has joined #lisp 12:04:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:05:11 -!- hippo [~kp@catv-89-133-26-94.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:05:56 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053004182.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06:24 hippo [~kp@catv-89-133-26-94.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:08:25 -!- darfox [~masjossy@41.223.4.33] has left #lisp 12:09:30 who do I ping about ALU wiki breakage? 12:11:16 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has joined #lisp 12:16:09 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:17:31 -!- rien_ [~unkanon@static-71-249-187-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:17:51 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:18:55 Quex01 [~haha@49.38.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:20:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20:49 -!- Quex01 [~haha@49.38.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 12:23:16 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:50 benny` [~benny@i577A2A2F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:25:41 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2D38.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:25:42 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has joined #lisp 12:26:02 -!- benny` is now known as benny 12:26:09 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 12:29:37 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:32:28 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:32:35 drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:57 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:35:36 jonte [~jonte@oiuvbty.ght.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 12:36:57 marijnjh: I think that people who judge a language and all its practitioners based on the statements of a single person are people who are not looking to be informed, but instead search for every possible reason to avoid having to learn that language. We call them "performance oriented" (don't ask me why). 12:38:59 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:40:36 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.166.226] has joined #lisp 12:40:51 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:02 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.132.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:42:30 performance oriented. What a strange term. 12:43:02 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-76-124-17-190.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:43:15 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.166.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:45:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-206.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:45:18 schmrkc: Less so when you read the full explanation. 12:45:42 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:46:11 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:38 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:48:25 quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:04 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:24 beach: isn't it "goal-at-every-cost oriented" if you're refering to that good article? 12:51:33 lharc: Which good article would that be? 12:51:53 jdz [~jdz@host134-106-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:53:07 -!- jonte [~jonte@oiuvbty.ght.sgsnet.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:53:36 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:54:08 beach: describing two types of characters, where one only cares for reaching the goal however inefficient, and the other for the path. 12:54:10 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:54:58 lharc: I am referring to this good article: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html :) 12:55:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:56:29 az [~az@perseus7.hs-niederrhein.de] has joined #lisp 12:57:04 beach: that's the one. I found myself being in both camps :) 12:57:11 prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has joined #lisp 12:57:48 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has joined #lisp 12:58:01 lharc: The essay says most people are in both camps. I think I give mathematicians as an example. 12:58:06 beach: have you heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effort_justification ? 12:59:10 stassats: Reading now! Looks very interesting! 12:59:34 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:00:01 stassats: I see this in our students all the time. They are disappointed when given a low grade when they put in a lot of effort into producing crap. 13:00:37 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:00:52 the whole theory of cognitive dissonance is quite interesting 13:01:57 I agree. 13:04:19 and it makes me quite uncomfortable that any strong belief i hold may be not accurate, for example, that Lisp is great 13:04:53 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:05:42 -!- balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:06:02 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:24 "If it took a long time to write, it should take a long time to read." 13:08:54 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:09:33 jonte [~jonte@oiuvbty.ght.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 13:10:14 Phenomena like that make it hard for me to get the message across to students that I *do not* want them to spend evenings and weekends in the computer lab to finish their projects, I want them to learn to work efficiently so that they don't have to spend evenings and weekends in the computer lab, and yet finish the project on schedule. 13:10:35 They almost had me up to the bit about the pigeon experiments. 13:11:03 'Do or not do; there is no try' 13:12:44 (Do people only take the theory of cognitive dissonance seriously because it can be difficult to understand?) 13:13:02 i take it as a _theory_ 13:13:04 :-) 13:14:27 stassats: so you have to behave as if it might be true OR false (: 13:16:06 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 13:16:53 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 13:17:17 Xach: Quicklisp and LW6 here. Your recommended way of overloading #'require? 13:17:17 as with anything, it nicely explains some things, but may be ultimately proven wrong 13:17:47 -!- quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:18:51 chrnybo: I don't know, sorry. 13:18:58 chrnybo: I just use (ql:quickload ...) all the time. 13:19:01 sellout [~greg@64.134.66.209] has joined #lisp 13:19:02 Xach: I'm using clbuild2 and am unable to update to the latest ql release, getting No update available for "quicklisp 2010-12-07". 13:19:30 spacebat: Are you behind a cache? 13:19:36 I've tried to nut it out, perhaps should give up on clbuild2 for now 13:19:51 yes a transparent squid proxy 13:20:13 Xach: For now, I'll do as in http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.lispworks.general/7917 13:20:15 spacebat: You will have to wait for the object to expire in the squid cache. 13:20:24 spacebat: or expire it early, if you have that ability. 13:20:31 I'll purge it and try again :) 13:20:32 -!- hippo [~kp@catv-89-133-26-94.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: = Connection reset by beer...] 13:21:12 Joreji [~thomas@68-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:21:16 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:21:27 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.212] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 13:23:13 http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp.txt is the orgin URL 13:23:18 rien_ [~unkanon@static-71-249-187-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:29 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.66.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:23:42 thanks 13:23:44 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 13:24:26 yay that was it :) 13:26:26 fukamachi [~user@EM114-49-132-207.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:28:44 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 13:28:45 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 13:30:25 Gaap [958418d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.149.132.24.208] has joined #lisp 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[~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:26:04 sabalaba_ [~sabalaba@67-194-73-220.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 14:26:04 -!- sabalaba_ [~sabalaba@67-194-73-220.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:03 dRbiG [p@irc.kaer.tk] has joined #lisp 14:30:17 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:33:17 -!- sluggo_ [~chris@c-75-64-77-87.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:33:44 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-206.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:37:20 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.105.133] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:38:22 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has left #lisp 14:38:43 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:31 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:40:09 quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:15 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:42:33 pmurias [~pawel@89-78-165-237.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 14:42:39 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:42 did anyone have an luck/fun with cells? 14:42:56 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:43:07 there's computed-class, which may be easier to use 14:43:31 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 14:44:19 i'm supposed to make a presentation for uni on "Reactive programmin in lisp" 14:44:32 what should i talk about? 14:47:50 pmurias: I don't know, but the title should be 'Lambda: the ultimate spreadsheet' 14:48:30 *sykopomp* is using Cells -right now- 14:49:11 your yobbo strength will wither! 14:49:30 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:49:34 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:49:42 :D 14:49:54 felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:01 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.66.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:50:22 felideon is doing Cells with me. 14:50:30 felideon: Cells heroes. ^5 14:50:35 Cells is awesome. ^5 14:50:57 But it's so hard to install! 14:51:06 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:06 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:51:25 Xach: is it giving QL trouble again? 14:51:26 *pmurias* is confused 14:51:38 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51:52 pmurias: I work for Ken Tilton, and we're using Cells for a project right now. 14:51:58 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:52:00 sykopomp: Just a bad joke. 14:52:12 It used to be a little tiny bit hard to install, BQL 14:52:20 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 14:52:24 sykopomp: are there any docs for Cells? 14:52:42 pmurias: there's the manifesto, and His Kennyness' brain. 14:53:00 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:53:24 manifesto? 14:53:37 Use The Google, Luke 14:53:58 thanks 14:54:02 pmurias: There is also this: https://github.com/stefano/cells-doc 14:54:13 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.205.149] has joined #lisp 14:55:19 what the... where did that come from? 14:55:37 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:56:08 angavrilov: A godsend! 14:56:41 I've only used it to implement a very simple lookalike in Haxe, though... 14:57:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-116-134.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:57:46 pmurias: when's your presentation? 14:58:08 tomorrow :( 14:58:14 :( 14:58:43 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:59:10 pmurias: maybe you should convert stefano's docs to PowerPoint ;) 15:00:02 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.132.165] has joined #lisp 15:00:10 pmurias: Ken says that we're too busy programming Lisp to help. Also, that we're hiring. Heh. 15:00:15 *sykopomp* goes back to that lisphax. 15:00:51 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:01:01 sellout: that was going to be my suggestion. That and explaining you (pmurias) had taken a literate programming approach and just read the code (: 15:02:50 fukamach_ [~user@EM111-188-15-235.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:03:14 incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:10 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-73-220.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:04:50 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has joined #lisp 15:06:10 -!- fukamachi [~user@EM114-49-132-207.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:06:43 pmurias: where's the presentation at? 15:06:58 a class at school or something? 15:07:05 class at my uni 15:07:12 Wroclaw, Poland 15:07:43 we have a class where people present stuff about lisp 15:07:57 most of the presentations so far where pretty bad 15:08:14 ah gotcha 15:08:38 pmurias: zapraszam na #lisp-pl :) 15:08:52 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:08:59 pmurias: Are the people in general lispers, or do they basically learn what they need to in order to do the required presentation? 15:09:07 hmm. sykopomp, let's start a #lisp-es :P 15:09:14 sellout: I'm betting on the second 15:10:43 sellout: mostly the second 15:11:22 felideon: I just joined #lisp-eo, but no one else is there :( 15:11:30 -!- paul0 [~paulogeye@189.114.196.159.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 15:11:39 p_l|backup, pmurias: Yeah, that's what I figured :/ 15:12:00 hehe 15:12:20 sellout: do you really know esperanto? 15:12:46 hmm, there's someone in #lisp-es 15:12:59 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:13:10 -!- rien_ [~unkanon@static-71-249-187-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 15:13:11 felideon: I've studied a little bit, and hung out in #esperanto or whatever for a while, but I'm by no means conversational even (always had a little translation app at hand to help me out) 15:13:42 ah interesting :) 15:13:58 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 15:14:23 #lisp-es could just as easily be spanish 15:14:43 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 15:16:07 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has joined #lisp 15:17:34 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:17:37 urandom__ [~user@p548A2B9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:47 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.166.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:19:02 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-109.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:19:45 sellout [~greg@64.134.66.209] has joined #lisp 15:20:31 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 15:23:40 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:25:30 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.72.162.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:50 wbruschi [~user@c-24-61-114-60.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:55 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 15:26:05 -!- fukamach_ [~user@EM111-188-15-235.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:06 boo. my abcl doesn't like utils-kt ): 15:28:16 kanru [~kanru@114-45-237-190.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:28:21 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has joined #lisp 15:29:19 you have an extra letter in abcl. you need acl 15:29:20 :P 15:29:50 felideon: I guess. (Looking at the asdf it's easy to see at least one issue (: ) 15:31:00 splittist: you checking out Cells for fun? 15:32:19 i installed cells from quicklisp without problems 15:32:23 felideon: basically. Also wondering if it's what I need for the next evolutionary step in my drafting 'aplication'. 15:32:49 (I'll pretend I had a (sic) in there.) 15:32:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:33:05 -!- nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:33:29 felideon: you guys using acl? (If you can say.) 15:33:56 splittist: yeah pretty much 15:35:13 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 15:37:03 rien_ [~rien_@static-71-249-187-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:27 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has joined #lisp 15:37:31 ZabaQ1 [~john.conn@host81-155-53-140.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:26 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@host81-155-53-140.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:40:15 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40:38 splittist: you're writing an application for drafting? (if so, drafting what?) 15:41:39 -!- xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:41:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:42:44 -!- ZabaQ1 is now known as ZabaQ 15:43:17 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:43:18 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:55 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:43:57 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.66.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:44:14 sellout [~greg@64.134.66.209] has joined #lisp 15:45:41 felideon: I have a little workbench that helps me draft legal documents. 15:45:56 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.31.211] has joined #lisp 15:46:07 ah 15:46:36 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:47:03 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:43 *splittist* feels the interest evaporate (: 15:47:59 lol. I was just curious :P 15:48:35 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 15:48:40 -!- xristos is now known as Guest8610 15:48:55 splittist: you speak legalese? 15:49:21 -!- quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:49:57 felideon: sadly, IAAL 15:50:23 I Am A Lisper 15:50:26 Bronsa [~BRACE@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:50:26 oh, interesting. 15:50:36 stassats: hah, right. 15:50:49 not your lisper, though 15:51:22 splittist: why sadly? 15:51:22 -!- OliverUv [fuckident@valkyrie.underwares.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:52:27 *cmm* is very sad about having only one set of practical skills, for example 15:53:01 mcspiff [~user@142.68.206.11] has joined #lisp 15:54:11 -!- mcspiff [~user@142.68.206.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:30 cmm: rather OT, but I think like most lawyers I never intended to actually practice, it was just a handy set of skills to have. But by the time you're finishing law school your vision has shrunk and you're wondering wich firm to join... 15:54:35 mcspiff [~user@142.68.206.11] has joined #lisp 15:54:47 s/wich/which/ 15:55:16 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:55:25 freddie111 [~user@ppp-94-64-132-175.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:56:26 *Xach* roomed with a student who found law school the perfect antidote to any urge to practice law 15:56:54 most programmers never originally dreamed of doing the sort of work they end up doing most of the day, either :) 15:57:08 anyway, probably the last generation to suffer from this, with the death of the career and the impending implosion of the existing university system. Which is OK, because with QL skynet will only be a quickload away! 15:57:09 youthful dreams are just... naive 15:57:26 Xach: I've heard of law school being compared to a pie-eating contest, where the prize is more pie. 15:57:29 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:57:29 i've never dreamed writing in lisp 15:57:59 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:14 stassats: so you can truly say it is beyond your wildest dreams? 15:58:14 Xach: I know two lawyers who feel the same way  been looking for an out since they started practicing. 15:58:18 splittist, yeah it's like 1968 all over again 15:58:43 beneath the cobblestones, the beach! 15:58:45 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:18 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:00:33 -!- splittist is now known as Guy_Debord 16:00:40 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:44 Joreji [~thomas@68-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:02:08 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:02:26 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-5-127-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rread] 16:03:48 Park_Q [~parkq@209-6-20-163.c3-0.wrx-ubr3.sbo-wrx.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:53 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:04:30 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:04:56 looks like functionaljobs.com has finally launched, and it already has a couple of lisp jobs listed 16:06:15 cckk [~Administr@112.111.62.187] has joined #lisp 16:07:08 too bad lisp isn't functional 16:07:25 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 16:08:23 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 16:08:40 guess they scraped lispjobs 16:09:41 They do charge $$$ for listings. Maybe they seeded it for free? 16:10:33 yeah it seems like. they had to launch with some content obviously 16:10:53 we use Cells though. Functional programmers need not apply. 16:10:54 :) 16:11:17 only microbiology programmers? 16:11:20 FRP for the win 16:11:52 lol. 16:12:58 or cytoprogrammers 16:15:16 Pocket [~pocket@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:15:22 Hello! 16:15:25 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.66.209] has quit [Quit: sellout] 16:16:33 Is anyone here? 16:16:39 Pocket: mostly bots. 16:16:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:16:47 THanks. 16:16:58 why do you think people are here? 16:17:20 lol 16:17:27 -!- cckk [~Administr@112.111.62.187] has left #lisp 16:17:45 I found function named rename in old common lisp program source. 16:18:00 But I cant find any infomation about this function. 16:18:05 Pocket: probably I/O function :) 16:18:19 Does anyone remember or know this function specific? 16:18:41 Sample code using rename: 16:19:01 Common Lisp has no such function 16:19:10 (rename (car r) v (cadddr r) (append func val)) 16:19:40 I know but, I found some postscript with this program. 16:20:06 And It shows me "This program used to work on KCL(Kyouto Common Lisp)" 16:20:10 what's a good clos manual? 16:20:20 minion, tell pmurias about keene 16:20:35 pmurias: Sonya Keene's Object Oriented Programming in Common Lisp 16:21:08 pmurias: Practical Common Lisp also 16:21:32 Kyouto Common Lisp is very old intepreter. So I think rename is specificed in old CL such as CLtL or CLtL2. 16:22:19 Pocket: it's not in cltl2 16:23:45 I know. 16:24:32 Is there any reference about CLtL (not CLtL2) 16:24:34 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see] 16:24:40 ? 16:25:26 cltl2 includes the full text of cltl1 16:25:33 Hmm... 16:26:10 Thanks. 16:26:26 simontwo [~simon@78.129.201.122] has joined #lisp 16:26:51 So maybe rename isn't specificed in CLtL too? 16:27:06 I'm trying to get a simple working environment up in Windows. I found Ufasoft, which is a Visual Studio hack. does anyone use that here? 16:27:08 Pocket: it could be a user-defined function, too 16:27:30 simontwo: People here use Common Lisp, and mostly on Linux. Those who use Windows seem to often use LispWorks or AllegroCL. 16:27:55 Xach, cool. and yes, common lisp it is. 16:27:58 -!- mcspiff [~user@142.68.206.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:33 simontwo: nope 16:28:45 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:48 Thanks all! I'll ask about this function to this program's author. :) 16:28:55 simontwo: most people here are emacs users. i work with clozure cl and emacs on windows sometimes (although i mostly use unixoid systems) 16:29:09 simontwo: istr that Ufasoft is a GPL-infringing port of clisp, or something like that 16:29:53 simontwo: if you just want to learn and play around, get a trial version of LispWorks or ACL 16:30:17 Pocket: there's no RENAME in the PITMANUAL (there is a RENAMEF for files, which perhaps leaves a trace of a prior RENAME...) 16:31:36 cmm, I 16:31:46 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 16:31:54 Gnu_Debord: Thanks. 16:31:59 cmm, I'm toying around with LispWorks. it smells like an Emacs front-end, but maybe they're just simulating it. 16:32:17 simontwo: the LispWorks editor is an emacs. 16:32:42 It's written in Common Lisp. 16:33:06 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.200.120] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:28 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-200-120.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:38 does Hemlock have paredit-like features? 16:34:52 which hemlock ? 16:35:17 LispWorks I guess 16:37:49 tcleval_ [bad53d83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.213.61.131] has joined #lisp 16:38:00 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:02 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:42:14 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:09 Xach: it's an emacs written in CL? that's pretty awesome 16:44:17 rien_: one of a few. 16:44:39 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:44:54 Xach: I think that's a great idea, using a real lisp for the whole program instead of elisp for just scripting 16:45:26 (I don't have any criticisms of elisp, I've just read about them) 16:46:03 elisp is used for most of "the whole program" 16:46:10 in GNU Emacs 16:46:47 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:47:12 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:47:33 I thought it was 90% elisp and the "other 90%" C 16:47:55 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 16:48:25 don't know how is it for you, but 90% is "most" for me 16:49:31 90% + 90 % != 100% 16:50:17 oh man, the run_testsuite(display_all=true); in wxmaxima does add lots of pages of newlines at the end, whereas in maxima alone it does not, i ask myself if it's due to the underlying lisp or so .... 16:50:41 err, sorry 16:51:35 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:51:36 oh come on, surely "the other 90% in C" was a good joke 16:51:50 stassats: I got what you're saying though. 16:52:31 koning_r1bot: I was referring to a joke, yeah 16:52:43 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.132.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:53:03 oh i thought you just came up with that 16:53:14 derrotebaron [~derroteba@static.7.69.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:26 rien_: thanks god :-) 16:53:48 koning_r1bot: the joke is: Writing the first 90 percent of a computer program takes 90 percent of the time. The remaining ten percent also takes 90 percent of the time 16:54:02 or something like that 16:54:08 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 16:54:22 -!- Pocket [~pocket@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:55:13 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 16:56:16 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:56:16 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.132.165] has joined #lisp 16:58:13 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.148] has joined #lisp 16:58:55 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:32 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 17:02:39 -!- Bronsa [~BRACE@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:02:55 Bronsa [~BRACE@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:04:40 -!- Bronsa [~BRACE@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:05:07 Bronsa [~AH@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:05:31 -!- Bronsa [~AH@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:05:51 Bronsa [~AH@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:08:40 -!- Bronsa [~AH@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:09:45 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 17:10:02 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:10:34 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-debokronqczsxdza] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:11:17 Bronsa [~AH@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:11:29 -!- Bronsa [~AH@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:25 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756909.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:01 mheld [~mheld@38.97.71.141] has joined #lisp 17:17:35 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:10 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.163.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:20:01 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.190.20] has joined #lisp 17:20:20 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@188-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 17:22:30 Bronsa [~Bronsa@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:23:00 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:15 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:27:47 -!- kanru [~kanru@114-45-237-190.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:31:21 -!- carlocci [~locci__@host120-245-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 17:31:51 rien_: this is even worse than that. Once you wrote the computer program, you need 200% of the time to make it a system (integration, API), and then again thrice the time to make it a product. So you actually need (0.9 + 0.9)*9 times the initial estimation. 17:32:04 16.2 times. 17:33:12 pjb: I'm living what you just said at this exact moment at work 17:33:36 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:49 I'm just citing "The Mythical Man.Month" :-) 17:35:56 wow they paint a bleak picture 17:36:11 real, but bleak nonetheless 17:36:40 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:38:21 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cdidgxvzrdcuyqgt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:38:22 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 17:38:23 It's worse. It was written in 1975, as let's say, a postmortem of the IBM System/360 development, but it is still quite actual nowadays. Dijkstra is a lot like that too. It's as if almost no progress had been done since 1960. 17:38:39 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:40 I always wanted to be the toolsmith on a Brooks-style surgical team, but the one time I worked on a team set up like that, I was some amalgam of the chief & copilot. 17:38:43 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:39:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.31.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:39:31 Could someone suggest a better way to write this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/118539 17:39:40 sellout: I only saw understaffed operations that couldn't afford that kind of organization. 17:39:55 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:39:55 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.31.211] has joined #lisp 17:40:46 Quadrescence: if it works, don't touch it. 17:40:54 ha 17:41:17 Quadrescence: otherwise, you could write a more concise expression, but it would use indices, and be less efficient. 17:41:32 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:41:40 rien_: OO helps a little, but when you see the libraries they do in OO, it's mostly still the same. I mean, more than 15 classes to parse XML in Qt?!!! 17:41:54 sysfault [exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 17:42:01 pjb: I don't think we maintained it particularly long  it sort of morphed into agile as that was rising. 17:42:40 thmzlt [~thomaz@24-217-48-63.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:42:58 pjb: Also, isn't that quasiquoting inefficient? It conses up a list, and then converts it to an array... 17:43:15 what's Dijkstra's favorite language? 17:43:22 how does the lisp community feel about agile / scrum? 17:43:24 Pascal? 17:43:25 rien_: not Lisp. 17:43:35 rien_: I think he liked a lot Algol. 17:43:42 yeah I think Algol too 17:43:52 Quadrescence: yes, since it's a little array, you could assign each slot. 17:44:10 i recall dijkstra declaring lisp to be the most beautiful language 17:44:13 pjb: You mean setf each slot manually? 17:44:16 Yes. 17:44:30 -!- lharc [~user@88.131.67.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:44:36 pjb: meanwhile they have a library written in x86 asm that parses XML some ridiculous amount of times faster than the next fastest :) 17:44:38 hmm, I forgot, is it setf that allows (setf x1 y1 x2 y2 ...)? 17:44:51 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:44:55 koning_r1bot: yes, but he didn't really understand lisp. 17:44:58 Quadrescence: you can setf more than one thing with a single setf. 17:44:59 Quadrescence: yep 17:45:07 Okay, thanks. 17:45:14 Quadrescence: both setf and setq allow it. 17:45:15 koning_r1bot: was that only platonic, though? he just liked how it was but wouldn't use it? 17:45:25 that C-style languages beat out lisp pisses me off every day 17:45:44 warzl, must be very taxing to be pissed off all the time 17:45:48 http://kazimirmajorinc.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-dijkstra-blogged-about-lisp.html 17:45:50 it is 17:45:58 avoid it if possible 17:46:03 lol 17:46:14 pjb: will read, thanks 17:46:20 warzl: i feel ya, but I think I'm becoming a true lisp weenie and moving to the "i don't care what they do"-attitude 17:46:45 maybe I would feel the same if I had a lisp job rather than C++ and C# 17:46:50 warzl: look for memoization on the wiki, and see where languages like C dont beat Lisp 17:47:17 I meant C beat least in the mainstream 17:47:20 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:47:23 lol he doesn't like lisp's syntax 17:47:29 Quadrescence: If i cared what other people did, i'd have killed myself by now 17:47:30 C beats lisp in no actual way 17:47:42 only in the mind of monkey coderz 17:48:00 It seems these days, C coders are usually competent. 17:48:06 I wonder how one would do things like lazy evaluation in C 17:48:11 I mean true-to-heart ANSI C coders. 17:48:30 true scotsmen 17:48:35 :-)] 17:48:37 true-to-heart C coders are dumb 17:48:39 tcleval_: there are ways. for instance, reading a file, one can use memory mapping. isn't that lazy-ish? 17:48:44 They are choosing the wrong problem to solve 17:48:54 tcleval_: I have a couple-file compiler written in C that compiles a haskell-like language (completely lazy) to C. 17:49:04 rien_: that's rather funny, because in his work on the THE system and later, he seemed to orbit around the ideas in lisp a lot. I mean, like any other programmer, we're all bound to Greenspun's Tenth Law. 17:49:07 Or at least I wrote one. No guarantee I can find it. ;) 17:49:08 rien_: yes, but kind of hard to mantain 17:49:13 Quadrescence: you should share that 17:49:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.31.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:49:33 I'll poke around for it a little later. 17:50:23 rien_: the point is, you cant do it on the language itself, you have to write some tool/compiler to make things work 17:50:29 pjb: so he wanted lisp without the syntax? a bit silly of him 17:50:36 Quadrescence: thanks! 17:50:53 Quadrescence: I'd really love to see that, especially because you said "couple-file" and I like tiny systems 17:51:00 That seems to be a very common reaction that new lisp users have. 17:51:08 rien_: yeah, it's about 1000 lines total, for the compiler/runtime/etc 17:51:09 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2352 17:51:26 Quadrescence: can't wait to see it! 17:51:38 has lambda, let, arithmetic, lists, bla bla 17:52:33 Quadrescence: I'm writing down your name and I'll ask you again to see if you found it :) 17:52:57 rien_: haha, I've written a good number of little toy languages 17:53:16 joshe: my first reaction was the same every newbie to lisp has, but my second reaction was "woah" and then "there's nothing better than this" 17:53:46 -!- mheld [~mheld@38.97.71.141] has quit [Quit: mheld] 17:53:47 Quadrescence is making all suspense 17:54:13 Quadrescence: I have no idea how to write one (except for the "write a scheme in 48 hours" tutorial) so I'd really enjoy looking at projects like that 17:54:14 I wrote a really awful interpreter for a little lisp-inspired clone back before I'd gotten the code-as-data thing. 17:54:20 rien_: you can see some junk here: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good (jeylang was the start of a little thing, yetilang is a little imperative language someone made that I included lambdas into, and then proceeded to write his standard library) 17:54:25 Quadrescence: especially one that is haskell like, which is a language dear to me 17:54:49 but beware, it's ugly C++ (the latter one) 17:54:51 -!- incandenza [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:06 joshe: so you took no advantage of code-as-data at all? that must be some funny code to read (for people alrady comfortable with lisp, which excludes me) 17:55:08 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 17:55:40 Quadrescence: we have the technology to fix it 17:55:46 and the author to ask questions to :P 17:55:58 In my old toy language, code wasn't data. 17:57:25 sysfault_ [exalted@c-68-36-149-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:25 -!- sysfault_ [exalted@c-68-36-149-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:58:14 like in many real languages 17:58:15 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756909.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:33 incandenza [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has left #lisp 18:06:40 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 18:06:52 -!- incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:07:30 leo2007 [~leo@124.72.162.241] has joined #lisp 18:08:52 -!- insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-31-221.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:15 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.245] has joined #lisp 18:09:16 GeneralMaximus [~general@122.163.246.88] has joined #lisp 18:10:42 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-67-249.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:10:53 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:12:35 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:14:14 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 18:15:13 what happened to cl-fftw3 in quicklisp ? 18:15:19 is it removed ? 18:15:45 it is removed. 18:16:00 ok, buggy ? 18:16:05 or what was the reason ? 18:16:51 The repo for the project has been down for 6 weeks, no response from the author. 18:17:17 Do you use cl-fftw3? 18:17:58 no i had it in my list of packages in .sbclrc, did not get to use it, but now i see it's removed already .... 18:18:16 i mean ok if it is not maintained.... 18:18:35 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:04 -!- Guy_Debord [~John@215.87.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:21:29 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:21:39 gigamonkey: Are you able to get a hold of drewc? I tried emailing him regarding the mailing lists on lispniks.com but haven't received a reply. 18:21:45 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:21:46 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has left #lisp 18:21:52 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 18:22:47 murilasso [~murilasso@64.119.157.61] has joined #lisp 18:23:00 az [~az@p5796CE67.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:00 I'm hunting a copy of "High Level Language Crafting" by Paepcke - it seems to have fallen off the web :-( 18:24:32 ZabaQ: sarch for "user-level language crafting" 18:25:55 balooga: you might try posting to the soccer subreddit with some derogatory remark about his beloved whitecaps. 18:26:03 balooga: he's quite active there. 18:26:19 that gives me a couple of hits - 404's though :( 18:27:02 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:33:03 Xach: ha. I didn't read carefully enough, and thought Paepke was hanging around on r/soccer 18:34:25 You should have clued in after the whitecaps remark, paepke is a die-hard Timbers supporter. 18:37:22 Sorry, should have been more specific in my reply 18:37:52 I missed baloogas message in a bunch of channel departure notifications 18:39:18 bencc [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:37 timor [~timor@port-92-195-170-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:41:55 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:31 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:45:25 snagged it! 18:46:31 slime-company A+++ would do business again 18:47:36 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:51:11 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:17 Xach: Thanks for the tip :) 18:53:16 splittist [~John@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:53:23 re 18:54:34 dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has joined #lisp 18:56:03 carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.212] has joined #lisp 18:56:51 -!- dmytrish__ [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:16 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:05:17 iwillig [~iwillig@160.39.65.134] has joined #lisp 19:05:55 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-73-220.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 19:06:46 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:06:54 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75cd79.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:14 oi 19:07:14 daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 19:07:33 vokoda [~user@host86-145-188-244.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:07:50 just incase anyone was curious, here's the finished polynomial calculator I've been working on http://paste.lisp.org/display/118544 :) 19:08:29 any criticism appreciated 19:08:39 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 19:08:40 daedra: what does it do? 19:08:52 4 operations, but on polynomes. 19:09:01 yes 19:09:19 does it test for irreducablility? 19:09:40 I'm not sure what that means. 19:09:56 for instance for a specific finite field. 19:09:57 would use "list" instead of "L" 19:11:21 daedra: how can it work? (setq pcar car) ! 19:11:38 mascotte [~mascotte_@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-23-249.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:11:41 this is an alias 19:11:49 I'm not sure if clisp supports this 19:11:54 No, this is meaningless in Common Lisp or in emacs lisp. 19:12:12 daedra, clisp is a compiler for common lisp, by the way. Just say CL or Lisp if you mean common lisp. 19:12:13 as well as scheme, since in scheme it would be set! not setq 19:12:15 perhaps you need to (defun pcar (p) (car p)) 19:12:40 Not "perhaps". 19:13:25 elisp has defalias 19:13:49 is it good practice to use these instead of writing car, cdr etc? 19:14:07 I wanted to separate my datastructure from the logic 19:14:13 daedra: Yes. 19:14:20 it's good to abstract things 19:14:24 daedra: you should not defun constantp either, constantp is already defined in CL. Or else, you should (shadow 'constantp) before. 19:14:37 daedra: clearly, you never ran this code. 19:14:50 lol 19:14:51 daedra, you could go even further and use structs or classes. 19:15:03 daedra: implement unique factorization please. 19:15:11 ouch 19:15:18 maybe later :P 19:15:22 And no, it's not a good thing of aliasing pcar = car and pcdr = cdr , it's idiotic. 19:15:43 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.236.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:15:58 Yeah  the *car names are weird  but letter, power, vars  those are good. 19:16:00 Either you have a real abstraction, or just use car and cdr. 19:16:01 I don't see why you represent polynomials with lists. 19:16:05 Or, better than cadr. 19:16:18 Yes, letter, power, vars are meaningful. 19:16:32 pkhuong: alternative? 19:16:33 pkhuong: this is more the "back end" I could represent them however 19:16:33 (or monomials, for that matter) 19:16:39 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-170-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:16:56 pjb, hi 19:17:06 Well, lists are not bad. You can easily multiply by x^n when you have lists. 19:17:16 deepfire: hi! Seen your email, I have too process it. 19:17:19 v0|d: a map from monomial to coefficient. 19:17:32 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-19-144.iburst.co.za] has left #lisp 19:17:35 daedra: on the surface the code looks decentish, but the details are weird. But indeed, did you run it? 19:17:55 prxq: yes, in a dialect of lisp called EuScheme 19:17:59 pkhuong: i see. 19:18:04 daedra: I am referring to the backend representation. 19:18:16 anybody interested in finite fields? 19:18:34 daedra: then it's off-topic 19:18:40 pkhuong: the representation could be changed by changing my aliases. I've not tried it, but it should be designed such 19:18:50 stassats: not necessarily. 19:18:54 let's not be complete asses here 19:19:08 manifestly, this EuScheme is more common lisp than Scheme. 19:19:27 sorry if it is OT 19:19:29 for one, it's lisp-1 19:19:33 daedra: why do you use EuScheme? 19:19:33 daedra: using a different data structure will change your algorithms. 19:19:52 pkhuong: oh? 19:19:58 pkhuong: tell him more about functors. 19:20:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/84252 19:20:35 Intersection of scheme and CL ^ 19:21:09 are there other "reactive programming" things for lisp than cells 19:21:11 ? 19:21:18 stassats: ok, but still. You can write programs that don't depend on lisp-1 or lisp-2. 19:21:46 pmurias: everybody writes their own. So, yes, there are. 19:22:21 pmurias: however, I don't remember the name any of the others 19:22:40 pjb: semantics of some operations listed in your paste are different 19:22:55 Yes, but they still have a common core. 19:23:10 the representation for monomials is also questionable. Is ((a 1) (b 1)) equivalent to ((b 1) (a 1)) ? 19:23:12 pjb: EuScheme is a very bad name. It's a lisp. 19:23:27 pkhuong: yes 19:23:27 scheme too is a lisp. 19:23:53 but EuScheme is not a scheme. 19:24:14 inexat? 19:24:18 daedra: still, it's a wonder why you should use this odd language. What advantage would it have over CL? 19:24:19 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:24:47 pjb: i presume it is required by his context 19:24:57 not really 19:25:03 daedra: if order is irrelevant, using a sequence is suspect. 19:25:05 I could have used any lisp 19:25:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-200-120.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:25:43 pkhuong: what do you mean by "using a sequence"? I don't order things 19:26:10 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-200-120.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:11 daedra: you see, 30 years ago people invested a lot of money, time and energy to come with a common lisp, to avoid problems such as (setq power cadr). 19:26:14 a list is a sequence, the elements are ordered 19:26:23 daedra: it's really a wonder why you have to nullify this effort? 19:27:07 sorry :( 19:27:23 I should have run this through sed before pasting 19:27:43 daedra: why did you implement such lib? 19:27:47 No, you should have downloaded one of the numerous CL implementations available. 19:27:50 mheld [~mheld@18.111.98.46] has joined #lisp 19:28:19 daedra: ccl, clisp, sbcl, cmucl, ecl, abcl, ... 19:28:36 he didn't "nullify" common lisp, he just used something else 19:28:40 -!- GeneralMaximus [~general@122.163.246.88] has quit [Quit: See you in another life.] 19:28:54 daedra: I am really asking only for curiosity, why did you choose EuScheme? 19:29:10 koning_r1bot: yes, he did. We have to spend time now to elucidate that it's a lisp-1 (while they standardized on lisp-2), etc. 19:29:24 homework 19:29:30 it's past the deadline now 19:29:36 so all the advantage they worked for 30 years ago are nullified, because we have to do again the same thing than 35 years ago. 19:29:39 so any feedback is useless to my mark 19:29:58 daedra: which lecture? 19:30:05 daedra: still. Why did you choose EuScheme instead of eg. ccl? 19:30:07 any syllabus 19:30:15 "Advanced Programming" 19:30:26 wohoo. 19:30:39 heh 19:30:40 daedra: you could say it was imposed by your teacher, and that'd be it, but if it's your own choice, then it has not been the best choice. 19:30:49 I still don't see how that nullifies the work done on common lisp, unless you mean everything in lisp should be in common lisp (which I could maybe see) 19:31:13 koning_r1bot: everything conceivable should be done in common lisp 19:31:16 I guess that is the consensus here, at least 19:31:20 stassats: no question about that 19:31:21 koning_r1bot: yes, basically. For example, clojure is a worse nullifier of CL. 19:31:29 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.132.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:31:53 "right tool for the job" 19:31:58 how dare anyone use anything but Common Lisp in any project they have ever worked on? Shame on them! Shaaame. 19:31:59 pjb: do you enjoy holding such absurd positions? 19:32:26 targetting jvm can be done in CL (abcl, CLforJava), implementing functional datastructures can be done in CL, and even implementating memory transactions can be done in a CL implementation as an extension. 19:32:38 *daedra* slinks off into the background 19:32:48 sykopomp: yes, such behaviour calls for smug-lisp-weenie license revocation 19:33:03 pjb: s/can be/has been/ 19:33:12 daedra: not to be an ass, but how was EuScheme/EuLisp the right tool for your job? 19:33:20 stassats: is there a protocol for reclaiming the license? 19:33:49 Alestan [~logan@147.222.200.87] has joined #lisp 19:33:57 daedra: now, this channel was so peaceful before you came in. You cannot just leave in the height of the flamefest! 19:34:13 koning_r1bot: I never said it was. That was imposed. But " everything in lisp should be in common lisp" 19:34:20 sykopomp: the Elders decide 19:34:23 no 19:35:42 what have I done 19:35:49 daedra: so it was imposed by your teacher. Good. 19:36:05 that's a 30% good excuse ;) 19:36:30 well, it's a fact of life that a lot of teachers are not up to date with lisp... 19:36:41 skeptomai [~cb@ip65-47-31-86.z31-47-65.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:06 So, I'm having a terrible time getting common lisp from the repository to work, (debian), and in my past experiences with it, it didn't work extremely well for my day to day programming. Is there a flavour of lisp out there which anyone would recommend over the version in the repository. (i looked at scheme, but it behaved somewhat weirdly.) 19:37:27 true that. we get to use java at university (but hey, at least it's "halfway to lisp", right?) 19:37:34 Alestan: all CL implementations work well on debian. You only have to compile them yourself. 19:37:36 I can understand why they are not, most of the tutorials and what not I've been able to find are pushing 10 years old 19:37:37 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@64.119.157.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:37:44 pjb: let's give them some slack here. At least it was lisp 19:37:50 well, somehow I am not surprised by that answer, 19:37:55 Alestan: I like ccl and clisp. sbcl, ecl, and abcl for special purposes. 19:38:01 b 19:38:05 my lecturer made EuScheme 19:38:11 prxq: yes. 19:38:21 daedra: this is even a better reason! :-) 19:38:33 Alestan: download sbcl from repos and use that. Then use quicklisp to load stuff 19:38:41 and is there a relatively recent tutorial for lisp? 19:38:45 Alestan: from upstream, I mean. 19:38:52 Alestan: Practical Common Lisp 19:38:57 Alestan: tutorials can be found on http://cliki.net/ 19:39:09 heh, I've got a paper copy :) 19:39:30 either way, this flamefest was not my intention. Apologies. 19:39:44 daedra: nah. Don't worry. 19:40:39 daedra: this was the honeymoon. you should try comp.lang.lisp 19:40:50 daedra: it's only a question of setting the right context. If you say "teacher imposed EuScheme, which is a lisp-1 looking like CL", then it's ok. If you say it's CL, it's misleading. 19:41:04 Okay. 19:41:11 s/the/a 19:42:06 daedra: for example, we can also answer programming questions involving emacs lisp (even if #emacs would be more indicated), while emacs lisp is not CL (but close enough, it's a lisp-2 but without lexical scoping). 19:42:07 comp.lang.lisp is rather easy nowadays 19:42:20 Beasts have been tamed? 19:42:29 erik naggum is dead 19:42:33 no-one has posted code to delete someone's hard drive in years! 19:42:39 :-) 19:42:49 Krystof: I remember that one 19:42:55 sykopomp: is cells-gtk maintained? what other stuff is cells integrated with? 19:44:02 pmurias: qooxdoo, the javascript framework 19:44:07 pmurias: aka qooxlisp 19:44:18 port it to sbcl! 19:44:21 EuScheme and EuLisp have their own history, and should enjoy some modicum of respect. 19:44:31 -!- mheld [~mheld@18.111.98.46] has quit [Quit: mheld] 19:45:08 Xach: and make it web-server agnostic, 19:45:57 sluggo [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:55 so, is qooxlisp the next thing? 19:47:21 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-enwzwphybcmmkful] has joined #lisp 19:47:37 in RIA, yes :) 19:47:43 RIA? 19:47:44 (rich intern applications) 19:47:46 internet 19:47:52 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:48:09 prxq: indeed, there are some interesting applications that have been developed in EuLisp. Too bad they're not ported to Common Lisp too. 19:48:10 buzzword-rich applications 19:48:10 yeah, it says it right here: "The Last Web App Framework You Will Ever Evaluate" 19:48:13 stassats: :) 19:48:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-65-200-120.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48:45 might be interesting to look into a Capuccino wrapper, though. see how that compares to qooxdoo 19:48:46 koning_r1bot: that sounds like it is deadly 19:48:55 For example, Interface Builder wasn't written in CL... 19:49:14 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:49:53 cmm [~cmm@109.65.200.120] has joined #lisp 19:50:54 pmurias: btw, Cello is better/newer than cells-gtk I believe 19:53:17 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@160.39.65.134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:27 sweet, looks like this may actually be useful, thanks a bunch guys. 19:55:20 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-31.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:34 sbrtgr [~user@174-30-215-125.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:25 -!- rmarianski is now known as rmar|mtng 19:57:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@68-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:57:37 wad [~wad@173-14-233-73-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:28 pjb: Interface Builder is EuLisp? 19:58:49 -!- wad [~wad@173-14-233-73-Utah.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 19:59:11 paul0 [~user@189.114.196.159.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:59:27 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:00:11 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.245] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 20:00:32 pjb: oh, what interesting applications have been developed in EuLisp? I'm intrigued 20:00:56 pnq [~nick@host-143.ssu.portsmouth.oh.us] has joined #lisp 20:01:37 WonTu [~WonTu@p57B52FA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:51 -!- WonTu [~WonTu@p57B52FA5.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 20:03:09 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:04:06 the cello page should have screenshots 20:04:20 it's weird to talk about a gui library in all text 20:04:32 IIRC, Interface Builder was written in LeLisp. 20:04:48 http://pastebin.com/7mXMcM9H 20:04:56 why *fn2* doesn't work? 20:05:55 (emacs is a really funny editor, I've just found a pastebin.el) 20:06:02 A great deal of the programming I do for my job involves stand-alone GUIs. I remember seeing a wxcl package for lisp, but I couldn't figure out how to make it work. Is there a good alternative to wxcl, or is it possible to make wxcl function? 20:06:04 (I 20:06:19 paul0: *fn2* is not a function, it is a list. 20:06:23 (I'd prefer to get wxcl to work, since I already have resource files that should work in it) 20:06:25 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has left #lisp 20:06:48 Alestan: The people I know who make GUIs for Lisp for money use LispWorks. 20:07:20 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.245] has joined #lisp 20:07:57 As for EuLisp, I don't remember, but I was first exposed to it because of an application I was interested in. 20:08:13 Alestan: last time I looked at wxcl, I couldn't figure out where to download anything related to it. The project site seems to be a spam page. 20:09:01 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:09:02 Xach: hm, I could run it using mapcar, (mapcar #'funcall *fn2*), but it didn't gave me the results I was expecting 20:09:04 Their project page has moved a couple times, I did eventually track down the download. 20:09:10 I think they are on sourceforge now. 20:09:22 Alestan: Can you tell me where? 20:09:26 Xach: when I funcall *fn*, it stores the value, and affects the next funcall 20:09:37 I'll grab the link. 20:09:38 Alestan: ltk might be an option 20:09:42 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-151.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:43 paul0: what did you expect? 20:10:25 Xach: I've expect *fn2* to store the values, and give me different results everytime based on previous results 20:10:41 Xach: *fn* was working that way 20:10:47 not a huge fan of tk, but I suppose it is workable. 20:10:57 sourceforge.net/projects/wxcl/files/wxcl 20:11:18 http://sourceforge.net/projects/wxcl/files/wxcl 20:11:20 paul0: Why would you get a different result? You increment to 1 and then decrement to 0 every time. It's a cycle. 20:11:36 paul0: If you funcalled the first thing in the list repeatedly you would see something different. 20:11:52 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.65.200.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:12:06 Alestan: thanks 20:12:13 Xach: oh, I see. 20:12:41 cmm [~cmm@109.65.200.120] has joined #lisp 20:12:50 Xach: I've thought that each lambda would have different "local variables" 20:13:07 except when they're special. 20:13:09 anyway, it makes sense 20:13:09 paul0: they all refer to the same count variable 20:13:29 python-wxglade is a very nice editor for doing graphical layouts, it can produce wx resource files for c/c++, python, perl, and lisp. (which is how i found out about wxcl) iirc, the wxlisp only supposedly worked with window$ 20:13:40 since each lambda is using the variable from the let scope, it should work that way 20:14:09 daedra: I was on my way getting this link for you when I got terribly distracted. I was just going to say that I wrote this one night before bed, so take it as a challenge to read absolutely genius code http://tinyurl.com/4ucyxkt 20:15:44 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439968.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:17 has anyone looked at http://common-lisp.net/projects/cello/ ? They are working on a GUI toolkit for CL. 20:16:30 daedra: you might even be able to steal the printer code to print polynomials somewhat prettily 20:16:49 Alestan: don't hold your breath 20:17:02 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75cd79.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:18:14 I thought Cello was in working state 20:18:30 I was just googling for it and it doesn't seem like it 20:18:54 Alestan: you could email kenny tilton an ask him 20:19:18 Alestan: take it from here: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cello.devel/18 20:19:21 the file repository listed on the site is empty 20:20:18 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:20:42 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:03 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439968.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:21:28 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:23:07 Alestan: thanks for the link. Looks difficult to build. I'm not up to it. 20:23:25 paul0: your code works fine for me (in scheme) 20:23:26 I think it requires you to build wx from scratch 20:23:43 sysfault_ [exalted@c-68-36-149-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:43 -!- sysfault_ [exalted@c-68-36-149-160.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:23:45 paul0: so when you say "it should work that way" you're right 20:23:52 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:13 rien_: good, I'm learning lisp on this vacation, there's a lot of foreign concepts to me 20:25:41 Alestan: Lisp: 50+ Years of a Great Language, But We Are Still Working on The GUI 20:25:59 hahaha 20:26:34 rien_: you should write a satire article on my blog 20:26:36 that about covers it, it's the main reason I end up using python for so much of my job, it's about as close as you get to a lisp-like language that makes GUIs easy to do. 20:26:49 Alestan: what, no way 20:26:59 Alestan: as close? have you heard of Smalltalk? 20:27:15 no, one moment, 20:27:33 lol 20:27:34 Quadrescence: I'm not that clever/funny, but let me have the link to your blog, I'll take a look when I can 20:27:48 it's funny to see how concepts from lisp get by as 'brand new super' features of current languages :) 20:28:01 rien_: http://symbo1ics.com/blog/ 20:28:20 dRbiG: yeah, like first class functions, XML, garbage collection, OO 20:28:31 Quadrescence: lol for a moment I thought the symbolics domain was yours!! :O 20:28:36 closures, reflection... the list is long 20:28:37 ._. 20:28:40 xml? eww 20:28:47 looks interesting, i'll look more into it when i get a chance 20:28:47 rien_: the concept of XML 20:28:57 first class functions... 20:29:01 oh, already listed 20:29:18 i think personally that at some point in the future we will reimplement lisp with { instead of ( :D 20:29:19 Alestan: lisp and smalltalk are buddies. cousins, maybe. 20:29:24 XML is just bloated enterprise S-exps. ;) 20:29:41 dRbiG: you can do that in common lisp 20:29:50 and in scheme I think 20:29:54 I can use [] at least 20:29:55 Some schemes 20:30:14 Quadrescence: i know i can do a lot in lisp :) the only thing holding me back from it is the apparent lack of libraries/packages for what i need 20:30:27 and i _hate_ reinventing the wheel 20:30:35 dRbiG: like what for example? 20:30:41 Alestan: out of curiosity, what do you make guys in with python? 20:30:44 as it usually ends up squarish and fragile 20:31:24 I usually use wx, via either PyCard or wxglade. 20:31:35 Alestan: ok, thanks. 20:31:40 dRbiG: Maybe if there's a library that doesn't exist yet, I'll make one, if it's interesting! 20:31:56 Lets me do 'drag and drop' layout, then just connect it on the backend. 20:32:15 Alestan: like visual studio? 20:32:15 Oh, is there an inline module for lisp like perl and python have? 20:32:27 I don't run windows, so I have no idea if it is like visual studio. 20:32:41 it's probably more primitive though, 20:32:42 Quadrescence: you want a list? pdf reading, xls/xlsx/csv reading/writing, wxwindows/other portable gui, zip (one project), then a decent ORM (DataMapper for ruby, seen nothing like it before), quick web framework (Sinatra for ruby again), bindings to imagemagick and fann...list goes on 20:32:45 at least PyCard certainly is. 20:32:56 Alestan: inline? 20:33:02 Alestan: I don't run windows either but visual studio is pretty ubiquitous :) 20:33:15 lets you write sections in other languages and include them. 20:33:29 I use inline in python to include mini sections in C if there is a program bottleneck. 20:33:34 dRbiG: What's that a list of? 20:33:39 dRbiG: http://www.cliki.net/CL-PDF 20:33:57 Alestan: the nice thing about CL, usually, is performance-critical code can be rewritten in CL. 20:34:07 dRbiG: http://www.cliki.net/ORM 20:34:07 Xach: libraries he can't ind for CL I assume 20:34:20 s/ind/find/ 20:34:26 orm in lisp should be nice, free syntax is what i love 20:34:27 s/can't find/cba to search for/ 20:34:31 dRbiG: http://www.cliki.net/wxCL 20:34:51 it is a scripting language though, how can it possibly match C for speed? 20:34:58 skeptoma` [~cb@ip65-47-31-86.z31-47-65.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:59 dRbiG: http://www.cliki.net/fare-csv 20:35:02 Alestan: Common Lisp is a general-purpose programming language. 20:35:18 Alestan: I use it to e.g. generate PNG images on the fly for my web toys. 20:35:25 Alestan: I compile my CL code, idk about you 20:35:36 Alestan: it doesn't match C for speed, but it's fast enough for what I do. 20:35:45 what's "scripting language" anyway? 20:35:50 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:51 Alestan: There are various high-performance native-code compilers for CL. 20:36:08 stassats: my interpretation: an interpreted language, large runtime, etc 20:36:11 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 20:36:20 *sykopomp* has helped with a 2d physics engine written in CL, with mostly reasonable performance. 20:36:22 well, no, not large runtime 20:36:26 that completely compile it? or do they compile it to some intermediary that still requires CL installed or bundles a copy of the CL core libraries with the files. 20:36:33 how language can be "interpreted"? 20:36:37 -!- skeptomai [~cb@ip65-47-31-86.z31-47-65.customer.algx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:36:49 Alestan: you need CL itself to compile CL usually 20:37:01 But that's because you're allowed to compile things at runtime 20:37:02 stassats: if the 'standard' for a language is an interpreted implementation, would that count? 20:37:03 yes, but do you still need it to execute it once you've compiled it? 20:37:13 Alestan: yes, it needs a runtime, like libc 20:37:18 Alestan: yes? 20:37:23 and truth is that unless we're speaking microcontrollers all stuff has dependencies 20:37:36 it's just with output from c/c++ you don't see it that much :) 20:37:40 sykopomp: then it's not a standard 20:37:46 Alestan: everything needs runtime libraries -- but you don't necessarily have to do any compilation at runtime. When you want to, you can. 20:38:02 Let me rephrase, 20:38:18 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 20:38:21 "Does Lisp fit my prejudiced view of what it means to be compiled?" 20:38:31 stassats: it's not an ANSI committee standard, but I'd say it's still a standard if it's the standard that everyone refers to when figuring out behavior. As poor an idea as that might 20:38:32 A: Probably not. 20:38:33 be. 20:39:32 -!- Bronsa [~Bronsa@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:39:46 sluggo_ [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:50 and the wise approach as usual is to use what's best for you and the task at hand :) 20:39:51 here we are talking about compilers again 20:39:57 and this time I didn't even start it 20:39:58 -!- skeptoma` [~cb@ip65-47-31-86.z31-47-65.customer.algx.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:58 -!- sluggo [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:58 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-73-220.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:58 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.212] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:58 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:58 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:58 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:58 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A8C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:58 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B327A61.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:58 -!- rabite_ [~rabite@83.169.3.115] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:58 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:58 -!- dym [~dym@217.20.175.226] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:58 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.150] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- jomatv6 [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- lispmeister_ [u272@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ivieiabfnnmhwjov] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- tic [~tic@c83-249-193-119.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- Zahl [~kenneth@lnx101.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- clop2 [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- pok_ [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:39:59 -!- cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:40:00 -!- elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:40:00 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:40:00 for me ruby wins right now 20:40:09 same here. 20:40:10 I know with python when you compile it, (which you can do ahead of time), it compiles to .pyc files. This saves time later, when you go to run it. However, it still relies on a single core file, in windows I know it is python26.dll or similar, to interpret the pyc file, so in practice it isn't much faster than a non compiled file is. How does that compare to CL? 20:40:15 day to day it's just easier. 20:40:30 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 20:40:33 Alestan: It can compile to native code 20:40:47 It goes through all your favorite optimizations 20:40:51 aggressively 20:40:56 Alestan: SBCL compiles to native code. As do some other lisp implementations. 20:40:59 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B327A61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:10 it's not some half-assed bytecode deal that python has 20:41:12 Alestan: many common lisp implementations compile to native code. Like C, C++, Fortran, and most other languages, the resulting programs also depend on a runtime library. 20:41:20 (at least not generally :D) 20:41:26 other implementations work more like python -- first compiling to an intermediate bytecode (CLISP does this) 20:41:26 xb 20:41:36 that makes sense 20:41:50 I know now there is a python project, called pypy, which compiles things to native code, 20:41:54 Alestan: Nonetheless, lisp typically isn't used to make executables like C/C++ do 20:42:05 It's used to make executables in a totally different way. 20:42:05 afair sbcl and some other still generate the executable by dumping the whole image 20:42:05 = still a nicer way for distribution later 20:42:09 speak for yourself. I'll save lisp and die. 20:42:13 Quadrescence: 20:42:17 Xach: Yeah, that's fair 20:42:18 sykopomp: hahaha 20:42:20 :))) 20:42:44 It's funny how people complain about the executable size 20:42:51 skeptoma` [~cb@ip65-47-31-86.z31-47-65.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-73-220.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.212] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A8C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 rabite_ [~rabite@83.169.3.115] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 dym [~dym@217.20.175.226] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 levi [~user@c-174-52-219-147.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.150] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 jomatv6 [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 lispmeister_ [u272@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ivieiabfnnmhwjov] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 cmbntr [~cmbntr@slice.loopback.ch] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 tic [~tic@c83-249-193-119.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 Zahl [~kenneth@lnx101.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 clop2 [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 pok_ [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 cYmen [~cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #lisp 20:42:51 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 20:42:53 has there been any attempts to make accessing the hyperspec via a REPL or CLI possible? 20:42:56 major netsplit... 20:42:56 how does the compiled native code compare for speed to code in C/C++? 20:43:01 pmurias: SLIME 20:43:21 Alestan: usually not as fast as C 20:43:22 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:43:26 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:43:26 *madnificent* wonders why people complain about lisp in that way, but didn't complain about the JVM's size back then 20:43:28 because C is very, very finely tuned usually 20:43:36 Alestan: usually 4 times slower than C I'd think (From the lanbguage shootout) 20:43:45 and you usually write your program 1000x faster in CL 20:43:45 madnificent: they didn't? 20:43:46 ;) 20:44:07 madnificent: I'm one of those who complains now and complained then 20:44:12 Alestan: It depends on the implementation. SBCL is really good. 20:44:13 why isn't cello on quicklisp? 20:44:14 other question I have then is how hard is it to write c library APIs for lisp? 20:44:15 Alestan: there is halfassed research that suggests that maybe, on average, CL turns out to be faster. 20:44:31 pmurias: 'cause it ain't ready 20:44:39 in practice, when you're not going to do much bittwiddling. 20:44:45 pmurias: Either nobody asked for it (by making an issue at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues) or someone asked but it doesn't build for me. 20:44:48 it also depends on the problem and how much effort you put into the solution 20:44:56 the language shootout is a crappy comparison 20:45:11 it's also the only one we have 20:45:22 Alestan: easy 20:45:24 that's like complaining about the scientific method 20:45:30 rien_: Not really. 20:45:31 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 20:45:38 rien_: come on, the shootout is a terrible comparison 20:45:38 Xach: link? 20:45:49 Alestan: http://norvig.com/java-lisp.html 20:45:50 Quadrescence: I never said it's a good one, people. 20:46:02 rien_: but you're saying "it's what we have so believe it!!!!!" 20:46:04 if system-appropos can't find a package but it's on http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html what does that mean? 20:46:09 cool, that is my usual method when i have a program bottleneck in python, is to simply rewrite the small section in C and include it. 20:46:19 -!- daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #lisp 20:46:22 pmurias: It might mean you haven't updated your quicklisp dist. try (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") 20:46:24 Alestan: You probably won't do that in lisp 20:46:26 Bronsa [~Bronsa@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:46:27 can i write VOPs on SBCL for the shootout? 20:46:33 Alestan: You would probably need to do that less often in CL, but the CFFI makes it easy if you must. 20:46:34 Quadrescence: so are you saying it's all based on lies? 20:46:38 -!- felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has left #lisp 20:46:40 rien_: essentially, yes 20:46:40 stassats: sure 20:46:50 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 20:47:01 rien_: some of the shootout examples use libgmp as foreign libraries. 20:47:05 sure, proper program design/redesign can save you from having to do that 90% of the time or more. 20:47:05 the shootout is a joke. 20:47:13 Alestan: in some schemes you can inline C code 20:47:15 sykopomp: why shouldn't they? 20:47:18 heck, why doesn't SBCL? 20:47:25 pkhuong: SBCL does now, I think. 20:47:33 it does? 20:47:40 last I checked. 20:47:52 sykopomp: I don't really have any arguments as I don't care for it really, I was just pointing it out 20:47:56 rien_: I rarely see shootout code that reflects what usual code actually looks like; and they all use the same libraries, so python looks fast (for bignums for example), but really it's a reflection of the GMP library. Is that a fair way to compare the actual language's speed? 20:48:05 sykopomp: are you saying that SBCL uses GMP? 20:48:09 sykopomp: nice. it should be easy to hotpatch sb-bignum at runtime though. 20:48:11 skeptoma`: obviously you and Quadrescence have done more research on it than I have :) 20:48:19 -!- Bronsa [~Bronsa@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 20:48:21 I think I am seeing the same trend with lisp that I have with other languages I've studied... 20:48:22 (ql:system-apropos "cells-gtk") doesn't find it 20:48:29 rien_: Hey, go look for yourself! 20:48:32 -!- skeptoma` [~cb@ip65-47-31-86.z31-47-65.customer.algx.net] has left #lisp 20:48:35 or that solutions at shootout are using GMP? 20:48:35 At the code people write on there 20:48:38 but cells-gtk can be found at http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html 20:48:39 pkhuong: I think it defeats the purpose. If 99% of the performance bottleneck is bignum crunching, and everyone just uses libgmp, then you're really just comparing nearly equivalent things, give or take a bit of overhead. 20:48:54 pmurias: only things in the "systems" column are systems that can be quickloaded. 20:48:55 sykopomp: right. Comparing how hard it is to use gmp in the language. 20:48:56 stassats: that solutions use it. 20:49:01 Alestan: what's that? 20:49:03 There are more useful metrics than raw rutime. 20:49:05 Alestan: what's the trend? 20:49:48 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 20:49:58 pkhuong: the shootout seems more inclined towards runtime/memoryuse comparisons. 20:50:06 I've heard claims about python saying that it makes it hard to write bad code, but what I'm actually seeing is that a better language makes writing good code easier. the fact is that you can't make it impossible to write bad code, but these more powerful languages make it easier to organize your code better. 20:50:11 all else said though, C beats all other languages, so I don't worry about speed when picking another language to learn/code for work when I can 20:50:14 pkhuong: but you make a good point anyway. 20:50:18 I'd bet that is why that link you posted shows a faster average time from lisp 20:50:24 hmm and btw. would you recommend some website with pratical examples of cl code? i never did anything useful in lisp... anything at all to be honest :) i'd really appreciate some examples like a simple http client, some text file parsing etc. 20:50:30 just to get the feel of it 20:50:41 Alestan: CL is also quite performant for a dynamic language. 20:50:41 dRbiG: Maybe learn Scheme first? 20:50:56 Bronsa [~Bronsa@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:51:00 dRbiG: you'll find those examples in Land of Lisp 20:51:02 dRbiG: http://weitz.de/drakma 20:51:33 dRbiG: You might be interested in this thing I wrote: http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=729 ; as well as one of the comments where someone asked about learning a language 20:51:37 Quadrescence: why so? i'm leaning toward scheme as it is more consitent as simpler (which probably makes it a bit more complex) :) 20:51:50 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:10 scheme is only simple as long as you don't try to use it 20:52:15 ^ 20:52:27 I'm very good at not using Scheme. 20:52:35 stassats: I wouldn't say that's fair to say. 20:52:37 mcspiff [~user@DC290.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 20:52:46 I think it's a lot more manageable for someone new to lisp entirely 20:52:46 Quadrescence: the truth is not always fair. 20:52:50 thx for the links/keywords - noted down :) 20:52:50 haha 20:52:51 Quadrescence: that's my experience 20:52:55 dRbiG: I second learning scheme first. don't listen to the others ;) 20:53:29 the scheme that at RnRS is simple, but it's not enough most of the time 20:53:47 pft. All you need is lambda, anyway. 20:53:51 enough for what? 20:53:57 whatever that link has all my opinions etc also I wonder if Nikodemus would want a custom, portable bignum library written in lisp itself. 20:54:00 for writing programs 20:54:15 I wonder what I'm writing then. 20:54:22 machine code is enough for writing programs ;D 20:54:23 stassats: Racket is totally pro at drawing checkerboards. 20:54:31 lol 20:54:33 low blow 20:54:35 let's see SBCL do that. huh huh. 20:54:36 haha 20:54:57 sykopomp: it can also draw circles you clod 20:55:06 sykopomp: maybe you should write a satire on lisp on my blog 20:55:10 common lisp object definition? 20:55:23 sykopomp: http://stassats.dyndns.org/img/clim-chess.png 20:55:33 stassats: touché 20:55:36 but the point is good as in: i use ruby cause it lets me get the job done quickly and efficiently - i like scheme and lisp as an idea :) 20:55:43 stassats: what's up with the motif and monospace bitmap fonts??? 20:55:55 what motif? 20:55:59 is that motif? 20:56:03 is qooxlisp usable on clisp/sbcl? 20:56:03 it's mcclim 20:56:07 yeah I'm dumb 20:56:10 tmh [635b0c15@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 20:56:21 Greetings lispers! 20:56:24 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:56:25 dRbiG: Ruby is just Lisp without a decent object system, poor runtime performance, no macros, and perl syntax. 20:56:26 dRbiG: I just linked you to just about all the libraries you said. 20:56:30 pmurias: it doesn't build on sbcl. 20:56:35 oh, and hipsters. 20:56:38 and you can have other fonts, those are default 20:56:41 lots and lots of hipsters. 20:56:46 and widespread use 20:57:00 s/use/abuse/ 20:57:02 Quadrescence: noted that too :) 20:57:07 sykopomp: not at ll. 20:57:09 use == abuse == use 20:57:10 er not at all. 20:57:14 Ah, the popularity metric. 20:57:26 it's got smalltalk's object protocol. 20:57:35 tmh: there aren't any metrics here, just spit 20:57:36 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439968.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:45 bougyman: my assessment stands. 20:58:11 fine, but that' ruby from 10 years ago. 20:58:17 "[14:56] and widespread use" 20:58:20 huh, somebody accessed my image with drakma 20:58:22 they've removed the perl syntex, for the most part. 20:58:28 stassats: nice 20:58:33 sykopomp: no macros - very true, poor performance - depends on viewpoint, object system & syntax - i find it way better than python's or perl's 20:58:35 the main difference is ruby wants to succeed and gain widespread use while CL doesn't seem to be interested 20:58:40 and there are runtimes that are competetive with c-l now. 20:58:40 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:50 stassats: me 20:59:00 dRbiG: when you have to say "It's good enough for when I don't need any sort of performance", that's poor performance. 20:59:16 yahooooo [~yahooooo@ec2-184-72-7-126.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:19 francogrex [~user@109.130.175.49] has joined #lisp 20:59:29 -!- marijnjh [~user@p5DDB3A32.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:59:36 The real question is why a ruby advocate is trolling on lisp and why lisp advocates are responding?!? 20:59:38 stassats: Im on ur websitez browzin ur picz 20:59:47 sykopomp: never had any performance issues with ruby, nor had the people that use my little software 20:59:49 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 20:59:55 they've removed the perl syntax? in favor of what? 21:00:03 english 21:00:05 C++ syntax. 21:00:08 C yeah 21:00:12 ... 21:00:13 i don't get the idea of 'ruby has perl syntax' 21:00:24 from where did you get it? 21:00:25 dRbiG: they used to support all the perlisms and people used them often. 21:00:26 dRbiG: matz's own words. take it up with him. 21:00:28 hmm 21:00:29 wow. drama. 21:00:35 im kind of a noob to CL 21:00:45 yeah, there are these $_ and other inventions 21:00:45 antifuchs: how's the ruby startup? ;) 21:00:51 never used them 21:00:55 i have a quick question for any lisper out there 21:00:56 I left it. startup times were too awful (-; 21:01:00 Sprayzor: what's up? 21:01:03 and you can do all without them 21:01:17 valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.236.179] has joined #lisp 21:01:17 I liked the qw() from perl and ruby, it's useful in a language that uses commas instead of the obvious whitespace as separators 21:01:23 antifuchs: you just had to prefork and use the fork-friendly GC 21:01:31 on C if i have achunk of binary data to be interpreted (ex. a network packet) 21:01:47 pkhuong: unless you are running tests, which means you have to re-load the whole thing (: 21:01:48 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:02 i can just cast the buffer from char to (my struct *) and be doe with it 21:02:15 is there anything similar with CL 21:02:17 ? 21:02:23 well, it's been fun all, but time for me to run along. thanks for the info and I'll probably be back. 21:02:34 o/ 21:02:35 -!- Alestan [~logan@147.222.200.87] has left #lisp 21:02:42 pkhuong: no incremental image-based development in ruby, at least not in any easy way that I could find 21:02:54 Sprayzor: Not in general. (You can't generally do that in C, either.) 21:03:01 yeah, for images you really want C... uh I mean Smalltalk :) 21:03:03 Sprayzor: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-parsing-binary-files.html 21:03:15 Sprayzor: that link from stassats is nice. 21:03:17 Sprayzor: Not built-in, but there's a binary parsing library thing in Practical Common Lisp that's better. 21:03:21 Sprayzor: what is your goal? 21:03:37 Sprayzor: you can usually just hack it and go via the FFI. 21:03:50 it's a really bad idea, though. 21:03:58 nothing in particular, just coming from C and banging my head against the wall of CL :P 21:04:03 Sprayzor: Casting binary data to structs in C is evil anyway. 21:04:24 i dont remember but i think you can tell he compiler not to use padding 21:04:25 why is it that everything useful == evil? 21:04:29 Sprayzor: you can ask about the kosherness of that practice on ##c. 21:04:35 At least if you care about portability. 21:04:51 Sprayzor: lisp code generally has less of the dirty "look, this accidentally works" stuff in there. 21:04:52 rien_: it's not useful. it's a very good way to introduce bugs. 21:05:18 rien_: because it implies work? 21:05:37 *Xach* hoped to read fontconfig cache files, was bummed to find out it's just a straight dump of C structs to disk 21:05:45 rien_: It would be useful if it was actually supported by the language, but the language definition allows evil things to happen when you do it. 21:05:56 Xach: not very nfs friendly (: 21:06:00 levi: yeah C is full of traps 21:06:05 Xach: gah, when will people learn 21:07:25 madnificent: what did you mean exactly? 21:07:35 pkhuong: it does an asdf2-style segregation with a little bit of arch info in the filename. 21:07:42 Xach: ah. 21:07:49 e.g. "le64" 21:07:52 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:01 Xach: and hopes for the best on x86. 21:08:06 and other deficient ABIs. 21:08:21 It can still be useful if you're writing FooCorp C for Xylox Processors and you know it works. I've seen vendor-supplied embedded development code that relies heavily on casting data to structs. But it's dangerous to assume that you can do it safely in C in general. 21:08:29 *Xach* should revisit the project, maybe things have improved in the N years since he last checked 21:09:12 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.190.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:09:26 pkhuong: How does the ABI come into play here? 21:09:41 tcr: some ABIs define struct layout. 21:09:43 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-73-220.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:10:06 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 21:10:36 I've tried to recreate something like gigamonkey's binary parser in C, but it's way less nice. 21:10:38 "some"? 21:10:46 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.71.226] has joined #lisp 21:10:46 froydnj: x86 doesn't. 21:10:50 rien_: when you lack a lot of useful things to solve the task at hand, it becomes extremely hard to see if you've been working or not. The worse the environment you work in, the harder it becomes to evaluate you. As such you'll get away with slacking off. 21:10:54 -!- freddie111 [~user@ppp-94-64-132-175.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:11:09 -!- Bronsa [~Bronsa@host148-182-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:11:14 froydnj: ok, maybe all but x86. 21:11:37  Function: symbolicate &rest things 21:11:38 freddie111 [~user@ppp-94-64-166-71.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:11:38 haha 21:11:51 pkhuong: maybe it comes in an OS-specific supplement? (can't remember the details atm) 21:12:27 froydnj: I don't know that it's specified by the OS as muh as by the usual compiler. 21:12:59 I imagine solaris has a defined abi for that sort of thing. linux is kind of a mess in that respect 21:14:30 freddie1` [~user@ppp-94-64-143-43.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 21:15:18 -!- sysfault [exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:00 -!- freddie111 [~user@ppp-94-64-166-71.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:16:10 madnificent: oh I made the connection now :) 21:19:21 -!- freddie1` [~user@ppp-94-64-143-43.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:19:29 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.175.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:16 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:24:27 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 21:25:27 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@host81-155-53-140.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:26:03 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 21:28:25 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:48 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:32:56 TheRebutler [~TheRebutl@cpe-76-175-192-194.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:07 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:40:01 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-31.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:14 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:41:00 how does AllegoCL compare with SBCL? 21:41:12 AllegroCL costs money 21:41:23 splittist_ [~IceChat77@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 21:41:30 SBCL costs time (j/k) 21:41:47 -!- splittist [~John@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 21:41:48 Ah, I love the obscure failure modes that come from accidentally destructively modifying lists. 21:42:01 gigamonkey: haha 21:44:45 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439968.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:45:29 Years of destructive modification paranoia well spent! 21:45:29 Is there a way to get the amount of time needed to evaluate a form and have it returned? TIME just returns the evaluated value, but I want, for example, number of milliseconds elapsed. 21:46:06 is AllegroCL faster, more featurefull or just more expensive? 21:46:07 clhs get-internal-run-time 21:46:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.72.162.241] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.91.1] 21:46:45 pmurias: it comes with a lot of stuff included (but you can get equivalents from quicklisp). there is excellent support, which makes up most of the price point 21:46:55 (but sbcl is hardly unsupported either) 21:47:03 -!- xraycat [~Miranda@brln-4db9531d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:21 antifuchs: thanks 21:47:22 franz hired all the sbcl developers to destroy the excellent support network 21:47:27 awwwww 21:47:29 not true! 21:47:31 Krystof: :P 21:47:31 and antifuchs is biased 21:47:48 pmurias: Yet another Lisp, in my book. 21:47:54 stassats: But so many of us are biased  21:47:55 yeah, I should metnion that I was an sbcl contributor, and now work for franz (: 21:47:58 the IDE seems nice, if you're emacs-phobic. 21:48:16 but Allegro likes doing everything the Allegro Way. 21:48:28 It doesn't seem to like playing nice with all the other kids. 21:48:37 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:48:41 are they the Apple of the Lisp world? 21:48:42 in terms of actual technical differences, I like Allegro's FFI over sbcl's, and sbcl's generated code over allegro's (: 21:48:50 so if you go with Allegro, expect serious lock down -- you won't be leaving any time soon. 21:48:55 rien_: hahahaha 21:48:57 rien_: no. 21:49:00 antifuchs: can you fix (+ (the fixnum x) (the fixnum y)) in Allegro? 21:49:18 "allegro" means fast 21:49:20 Krystof: fix in what manner? 21:49:20 over jkf's dead body, I suppose (-; 21:49:26 Krystof: what's broken? 21:49:37 stassats: you're an italian maverick :) 21:49:44 Krystof: maybe you want: (the fixnum (+ (the fixnum x) (the fixnum y)))? 21:49:50 I think Allegro supports Fortran in the FFI, which is attractive. But, the licensing requirements for distributing programs are prohibitive. 21:50:06 doesn't allegro have that nice case-sensitivity called modern-mode ? 21:50:12 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-237.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:50:19 madnificent: yea, everyone else should copy that. 21:50:27 how can i save an sbcl image? from looking at the docs i see that i should use "save-lisp-and-die" ... but when i type (save-lisp-and-die foo) at the sbcl repl, i get an error: "The variable FOO is unbound." 21:50:36 some say nice, some say awful. I use modern mode, but ansi mode is more predictable (: 21:50:38 clisp has modern mode 21:50:41 (please note i'm a complete lisp newbie.. so be gentle) 21:50:44 pattern: I think it's in the sb-ext package. 21:50:55 (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die) 21:50:57 *stassats* is happy with the baroque mode 21:51:01 (save-lisp-and-die "/path/to/you/image-file") 21:51:02 Hexstream: thank you 21:51:02 anyway. most of the price and licensing terms can be negotiated. talk to the sales people about your requirements. 21:51:21 ah yes sb-ext it is 21:51:25 stassats: it doesn't do case-sensitivity the same way, IIRC 21:51:26 alegrograph seems like neat stuff 21:51:29 It just bugs me occassionally that output has EVERYTHING UPPERCASED. 21:51:37 allegrograph is really nice (: 21:51:44 (disclosure: I'm working on that, too) 21:51:52 *Hexstream* is too lazy to change all his (gensym "MY-VAR") code. 21:51:52 foom: no, I want the opposite. Under (safety 0), allegro compiles (+ fixnum fixnum) to the wrapping arithmetic instruction 21:52:02 antifuchs: that sounded like an advertisement. "talk to your doctor to see if Allegro CL is right for you!" 21:52:02 Krystof: oh. that's bad! 21:52:04 hmm... "Cannot save core with multiple threads running." 21:52:04 stassats: bruno haible did a talk on their case-preserving reader a while back, listed a few differences 21:52:06 francogrex [~user@109.130.175.49] has joined #lisp 21:52:08 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:52:19 foom: yeah, but I tried to convince Duane of that a few years back and he didn't bit 21:52:20 delivering systems on windows would be the principal reason to use allegro, outside the franz cooked tech like allegrograph that is bound to alisp. 21:52:21 rien_: uh, more like "right for your wallet" 21:52:23 "bite", even 21:52:31 antifuchs: then, i guess they should've called it post-modern mode 21:52:42 stassats: yeah, an opportunity missed ((: 21:53:02 antifuchs: you can't say that in ad copy! 21:53:38 Krystof: Well, if being clearly broken and producing an incorrect result isn't enough to convince them, oh well, what can you do. 21:53:54 rien_: I'm not trying to sound like ad copy 21:54:22 antifuchs: actually you are SUPER DUMB and WRONG what i really wanted was get-internal-REAL-time jeez learn some common lisp will ya 21:54:34 I guess you can just #-allegro all type declarations. :) 21:54:34 Quadrescence: well, there you go (: 21:54:35 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:54:55 Quadrescence: but it's good that we both learned something there (: 21:54:56 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:22 antifuchs: haha, actually, can you try this on ACL please?: (let ((tm (get-internal-real-time))) (sleep 5) (- (get-internal-real-time) tm)) 21:55:38 antifuchs: "anyway. most of the price and licensing terms can be negotiated. talk to the sales people about your requirements." s/can be/must be/ 21:56:12 That's actually how I ended up writing PCL. Steve Haflich brought me to lunch with some Franz sales guys to tell them how untenable that was. 21:56:16 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-151.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:56:29 gigamonkey: haha, indeed (: 21:56:37 Quadrescence: I'm getting 5000 21:56:47 antifuchs: cool, same for SBCL 21:56:47 Quadrescence: but you need the internal time units to make sense of that number 21:56:57 i got 5003, what do i win? 21:56:58 INTERNAL-TIME-UNITS-PER-SECOND 21:57:00 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-151.vologda.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 21:57:05 antifuchs: 5k milliseconds I will assume 21:57:12 even if it's implementation dependent 21:57:20 you dn't win, you lose 5 seconds 21:57:22 that constant tells the truth (: 21:57:24 stassats: -3 milliseconds of your time 21:57:24 of your life 21:57:36 francogr` [~user@109.130.29.234] has joined #lisp 21:57:41 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-177-151.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:59:07 *stassats* blames theory of relativity 21:59:18 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:59:27 moving negatively slowly, are you, stassats? 21:59:48 how could i tell? 22:00:04 it's always relativity with you! 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22:34:42 -!- pmurias [~pawel@89-78-165-237.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:34:46 Hey beach. 22:35:16 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:36:27 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@73-74-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:53 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.77.11] has joined #lisp 22:37:21 sbrtgr [~user@174-30-215-125.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:42 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 22:39:56 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 22:39:57 -!- jdz [~jdz@host134-106-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:41:22 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-237.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 22:41:46 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42:25 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:42:54 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:43:48 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 22:49:28 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:50:07 hi beach 22:52:50 b 22:53:05 Hello 22:54:17 astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has joined #lisp 22:58:24 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2B9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:34 -!- sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:49 sysfault [~exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 23:00:34 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 23:00:44 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:55 netfrog [~user@2.54.147.198] has joined #lisp 23:03:02 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439968.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:25 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.245] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 23:07:24 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440702.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:10:38 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:11:52 -!- bencc [~user@bzq-84-111-72-192.red.bezeqint.net] has left #lisp 23:13:05 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-181-109.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:13:39 Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:48 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:16:11 -!- netfrog [~user@2.54.147.198] has left #lisp 23:19:07 paul0` [~user@189.114.196.159.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:20:00 wbruschi` [~user@c-24-61-114-60.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:38 -!- paul0 [~user@189.114.196.159.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:50 -!- Sprayzor [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:23:26 -!- wbruschi [~user@c-24-61-114-60.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:24:14 -!- wbruschi` [~user@c-24-61-114-60.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:24:38 -!- methods [~methods@pool-96-240-0-78.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:24:46 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:34 -!- mascotte [~mascotte_@AClermont-Ferrand-651-1-23-249.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 23:26:56 minion: are you here? 23:27:49 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.29.234] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:38 sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:56 -!- statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:30:30 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-137-226.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:33 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.71.7] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:30:53 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:02 hm ironclad export null symbol 23:31:18 which really annoys all of my other symbols. 23:31:22 very ugly, very. 23:31:36 shadowing it didnt solve anything. 23:31:55 now i should import every symbol by hand. 23:32:23 v0|d: How did you shadow it? 23:32:35 defpackage -> :shadowing-import-from 23:32:44 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 23:32:45 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:50 v0|d: what was the actual form you used? 23:33:07 actual form? 23:33:11 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-41-219.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:31 i just :use :ironclad :smthg and shadowing-import-from #:ironclad #:null 23:34:07 v0|d: So you want the Ironclad null instead of the CL null? 23:34:55 sellout: why did you think i should want some ironclad bug? 23:35:00 i want cl:null back. 23:35:12 v0|d: Because that's what your s-i-f form does. 23:35:12 v0|d: what makes you think ironclad exporting NULL is a bug? (-: 23:35:29 v0|d: You want (:shadowing-import-from #:cl #:null) 23:35:47 hm. 23:36:18 lets see what happens. 23:37:26 -!- astoon [~astoon@178.130.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:38:28 sellout: you are right. 23:38:38 any ideas why i thought the other way? 23:38:44 it seemed it was obvious. 23:39:02 so i jumped to the conclusion. 23:39:58 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@188-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:40:00 -!- sluggo_ [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:41:02 v0|d: Even after many years of lisping, I find the SHADOW terminology unintuitive, but it is consistent within CL. 23:42:07 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 23:43:06 sellout: i agree. 23:43:21 sellout: thnx. 23:46:42 confusedlispnoob [~user@82.159.115.173.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:45 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:42 so lets see, from briefly reading the practical common lisp chapter about binary files 23:48:17 i got the impression that byond fancy macors its just read-byte repeatedly 23:48:23 macros 23:48:27 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:48:55 this doesnt make any sense 23:48:59 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.205.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:44 suposedly im not allowed to dump a X tpye on a file because its memory representation might vary or something 23:50:38 yet, its perfectly fine to play guess with arithmetic ( very efficient lol) and write-byte ... 23:50:51 another funny fact 23:51:16 give references 23:51:36 practical common lisp chapter 24 23:51:55 macros bal bla bla classes bla bla bla 23:52:04 undeneath just read-byte 23:52:41 read-byte is mentioned many times 23:52:57 yup 23:53:30 i was looking for a way to read or write anything but bytes to a binary stream 23:53:46 which is to say, i don't know where you're trying to point me 23:53:54 confusedlispnoob: in the end, that's what reading from a binary stream is (: 23:53:59 well 23:54:10 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:54:13 confusedlispnoob: you can read and write sequences of bytes to/from binary streams 23:54:19 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:54:31 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:35 what were you expecting to do with them? 23:54:38 well it would be pretty retarded if for example i tried to slurp a text file with read-char right? 23:54:53 and read sequence is fine 23:55:02 that would need a character stream (or an implementation-dependent bivalent stream) 23:55:20 if you're looking to get characters from a binary stream, take a look at the BABEL library 23:55:32 but lets say i want to read a integer bigger than 8 bits form a binary stream 23:55:37 from 23:55:42 oh, that. hm. 23:55:54 check out http://www.cliki.net/Binary-types 23:56:16 that lets you encode various things in various binary representations 23:57:04 both babel and binary-types are available in quicklisp. 23:57:09 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.195.212] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:57:35 confusedlispnoob: there are examples in chapter 24 of how to do that. 23:57:37 hmm thanks 23:58:04 But CL doesn't provide a way out of the box which is just as well because what representation should they use? 23:58:19 binary external-formats (: 23:58:24 wonder 23:58:26 i wonder 23:58:31 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@85.253.74.142.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 23:58:31 The only portable thing you can do with a file is read one byte or perhaps a vector of bytes. 23:58:38 how do this libraries deal with it then? 23:58:50 Beyond that you get into, at the very least, endianess. 23:59:19 they transform the data in a way to get the representation requested, and then write that representation bytewise 23:59:23 statonjr [~statonjr@cpe-071-075-085-085.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:28 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:38 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]