00:00:00 ieee754 compatibility 00:00:58 -!- binod [~binod@88-134-63-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:00:58 prxq: hm, I imagine you'd run into bignums very quickly, especially with e notation (: 00:01:00 when everyone is wrong, you have to be correctly wrong to work with them 00:01:27 paul0: Or you can just not work with them 00:01:34 at least ieee 754 is a standard for incorrectness 00:01:39 for enlightenment, program a newton method to compute (sqrt 2), and then let it iterate a bit more than usual and ...boom. That was the OOM killer. 00:01:49 hee hee 00:01:51 antifuchs: it 00:01:51 hmm... Windows NT on ARM. I wonder if they will switch everything to position-independent 00:02:32 prxq: damn. finite memory shouldn't mean I have to forego conceptual purity! (: 00:02:35 prxq: You can still support inaccurate floats, i just don't think it should be the default 00:03:01 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.156.182] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:02 antifuchs: also, fractions with relatively small footprint can have fairly big decimal representations. I'm not even talking of periodic here 00:03:18 just curious, using rational numbers in lisp may cause performance issues? 00:03:21 drdo: it is not the default, as far as i can tell. 00:03:27 prxq: It is 00:03:47 paul0: using rational numbers anywhere causes performance issues 00:04:00 drdo: how so? (expt 2 -1) ==> 1/2 00:04:04 DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:04:04 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 00:04:04 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 00:04:22 prxq: If you type 0.5 00:04:26 i've just made a reader-macro: 10.5 => 10 00:04:30 That is an ieee float 00:04:31 It can cause performance non-issues in many situations... 00:04:34 paul0: What prxq says. Then again, if you accept that things are fast but incorrect, you can do lots of things. 00:04:35 Not a rational 00:04:43 drdo: yes, and it better be 00:04:49 prxq: No, it better not be 00:04:50 i guess there can be a package called "close to APL" 00:04:58 or closer 00:05:05 drdo: yes, it better be, neener neener :-) 00:05:11 paul0: The best performance is not running the program, if correct results aren't important 00:05:28 Or just make your program output anything 00:05:47 drdo: inaccuracy doesn't mean the program is incorrect 00:05:49 drdo: seriously though, if you used rationals by default, you would have trouble all the time 00:05:54 prxq: why? 00:05:55 banisterfiend [~horse@115.189.204.53] has joined #lisp 00:05:59 Actually, closer-to-J would be better. 00:06:17 drdo: unbounded size in memory of numbers 00:06:25 antifuchs: Of course not, if your program's job in life is to output innacurate results, then it's correct 00:06:28 tritchey_ [~tritchey@74-92-190-254-Indianapolis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:33 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053005138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:06:37 drdo: for no good reason 00:07:21 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@74-92-190-254-Indianapolis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:21 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 00:07:24 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:07:52 I'm trying to find any article talking about performance issues when using rational numbers... Didn't found anything useful yet 00:07:54 drdo: let's talk when you've calculated the exact value of pi (: 00:07:55 drdo: here is an inaccurate program: "(sqrt 2)" 00:07:56 prxq: No good reason? Accuracy is a pretty good reason 00:08:19 antifuchs: 0.33323232 is a rational number 00:08:26 And it should be represented as such 00:08:42 but it is! (: 00:08:45 it's not 00:08:46 floats are rationals anyway (: 00:09:04 they just allow you a limited set of denominators (: 00:09:05 (= (* 333/1000 333/1000) (* 0.333 0.333)) -> NIL 00:09:06 yes, it's the operations on them that are buggy 00:09:13 This is pretty bad 00:09:20 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:36 -!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:09:42 drdo: no, it is just that you haven't adjusted your expectations to what is realistic 00:09:59 prxq: What are you talking about? It's obviously realistic 00:10:00 -!- euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hvugjqzbtupmsomu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:01 drdo: Not if you don't rely on float to have perfect accuracy, which you shouldn't ever anyway. 00:10:15 drdo: 0.3323232 is represented as a rational number, just not as the one you might expect. 00:10:19 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:24 I'm not arguing that ieee float is not useful 00:10:24 -!- lispmeister_ [u272@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ykbaqlcowqmhxycj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:28 I'm just saying that the lisp reader 00:10:43 Should not read 0.333 as an ieee float 00:10:48 -!- TeMPOraL [u463@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ongjcfeaacpmyhxu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:51 drdo: Make you own lisp? :) 00:10:52 It should be a rational 00:10:58 your* 00:11:03 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439968.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 00:11:16 drdo: that's an irrational position :-) 00:11:26 prxq: Why? 00:11:32 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:11:40 When you have ideas that aren't popular, you have to take matters in your own hands. 00:11:50 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:12:09 drdo: you need to update your reader syntax to support 0.333... 00:12:16 drdo: because it is not useful in practice. You may have an airtight argument about it, but you lose anyway. 00:12:21 to communicate an infinite digit sequence 00:12:27 or else it is NOT 1/3 00:12:39 Phoodus: Who the fuck is 0.333 an infinite digit sequence? 00:12:40 -!- nickik [~nick@adsl-62-167-134-173.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:12:42 *How 00:12:42 It's not an airtight argument if it's not useful in practice... 00:12:57 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:23 Hexstream: you can make airtight arguments that hold no water :-) 00:13:37 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:13:39 That would be waterproof then, no? 00:13:41 Phoodus: drdo means that 0.333 should be represented as 333/1000, not 1/3. 00:13:58 yeah, I just noticed that in figuring out what he was trying 00:14:04 beach: Obviously, why the hell would it be 1/3? 00:14:21 drdo: Sure, no reason. 00:14:37 TeMPOraL [u463@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ayblohhjqocqlngs] has joined #lisp 00:14:53 is there an existing reader setting that doesn't generate floats? 00:15:08 yes 00:15:14 Phoodus: you could use rationalize in all your inputs 00:15:16 never use that syntax 00:15:19 Use rational literals instead of floats?... 00:15:20 only the / one 00:15:34 I mean like a (setf *read-default-float-format* 'rational) 00:16:19 That's in "make your own lisp" territory, I'm afraid :) 00:16:20 the spec allows for implementation-specific allowable types in there 00:16:32 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439968.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:16:48 the only thing i regret is that floats aren't double floats by default 00:17:22 rationals are useless for most serious computation. 00:17:24 I think that's left to the implementation to determine... (but I'm not sure). 00:17:38 prxq: not true 00:17:49 prxq: What is serious computation? 00:17:49 in fact, i do all of my serious computations with rationals 00:18:19 Quadrescence: i mean rational the type, of course 00:18:20 lispmeister_ [u272@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ivieiabfnnmhwjov] has joined #lisp 00:18:20 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:56 What else could Quadrescence possibly mean? 00:19:00 euphidime [u178@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jcdlchszoqboxjfo] has joined #lisp 00:19:02 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-113.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:19:10 drdo: That 1 and such are rationals too. 00:19:21 hmm, with reader macros it's easy to do ¬X, bot not A  B 00:19:52 In the mathematical sense. And (typep 1 'rational) => T 00:20:03 prxq: I mean the RATIO type 00:20:09 (ah, the joy of being on with unicode-impaired mIRC, running on an OS with unicode-impaired legacy, and an unicode-impaired font) 00:20:11 You people are not making any sense 00:20:24 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:20:34 Quadrescence: what is your field? 00:20:52 Well, yes, you are making sense in the sense that what you are saying is true, but you are not making sense in the sense that it is not relevant to the conversation 00:20:57 Phoodus: You seem to have made a series of bad choices. 00:21:05 presenting: https://gist.github.com/767289 closer-to-apl.lisp 00:21:30 prxq: Rationals are my field. I kid. I do computer algebra. 00:21:52 Quadrescence: ah, that's a different matter. 00:22:08 stassats: now show some code with it! 00:22:10 stassats: Haha, omg. I must say, that's funnier than closer-to-J would be. 00:22:14 Xach: ¬( 6 1/2) 00:22:17 stassats: You forgot the most important one! 00:22:21 => NIL 00:22:43 lambda of course 00:22:44 Quadrescence: that fits just under the "most" part :-) 00:22:54 stassats: Why don't you use CONSTANTLY? 00:23:17 prxq: You are a different matter 00:23:31 Hexstream: i don't know 00:23:47 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:50 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@74-92-190-254-Indianapolis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:23:51 I'd bet everything i own that the vast majority of programs don't use floats 00:24:06 floats are made by the devil 00:24:13 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest43253 00:24:13 Indeed 00:24:15 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 00:24:17 fixed point 4 lyfe 00:24:27 (or arbitrary prec) 00:24:33 drdo: Javascript is pretty popular, and uses nothing but. 00:24:42 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.12.110] has joined #lisp 00:24:48 32.32 bits should be enough for everybody 00:24:48 *outch* 00:25:16 Xach: That is not correct, pretty sure javascript supports integers 00:25:37 "You're wrong. I think otherwise" 00:25:49 Well, I guess he meant "using" as in treating them as such, not as a side-effect of the runtime. But still. Floats are used more than he thinks. 00:26:01 floats are used a ton 00:26:09 now to write:  n  {1 2 3 4 5}: (evenp n) => T 00:26:14 most scientific calculations use them, all games, bla bla 00:26:31 drdo: no, all numbers are floats internally in js. 00:26:32 drdo: are you aware that floats can represent integers exactly up to 2^52? 00:26:35 Quadrescence: Sure, i have no problem with people using them 00:26:37 (and negative too) 00:26:59 and then some, of course 00:27:05 prxq: That's a pretty small number 00:27:12 it has bitwise operations, but that didn't keep Eich (: 00:27:32 drdo: You can't say that without a frame of reference... 00:27:39 freik [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 00:27:42 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:27:46 I hate arbitrary limits 00:27:53 Is 1 small or big? 00:28:07 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:28:07 huuuuuuuuuuuuuge 00:28:11 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:28:29 It might mean 100%. Which is... small or big, depending on frame of reference. 00:28:34 All integers are small 00:28:52 Which is why we should support them all, to the best of our effort 00:28:55 drdo: I beg you pardon? how about 42? 00:29:04 tritchey [~tritchey@74-92-190-254-Indianapolis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:08 haha. there's only infinitely many of them (: 00:29:28 antifuchs: Exactly why i included to the best of our effort! :) 00:29:39 I know a proof that all nonnegative integers are interesting, but not that they are all small. 00:29:45 antifuchs: only aleph1 of them. ;) 00:29:48 emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:55 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:59 drdo: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2010/10/every-day-i-learn-something-new-and-stupid/ 00:30:17 I love how that comes with a comment by Eich (-: 00:30:36 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.222] has joined #lisp 00:30:38 even marginally on-topic due to frequent use of the L-word. 00:30:59 Xach: Alright, my apologies then, i didn't know someone could do something like that 00:31:45 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:31:52 antifuchs: congrats, btw, on the new release of web 3.0's database 00:32:43 Which is?... 00:33:27 google knows 00:33:44 tritchey_ [~tritchey@74-92-190-253-Indianapolis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:19 Oh, sorry. I didn't think that was the actual name of the database. I thought you were making it a compliment by calling it "web 3.0's database". 00:35:06 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:17 actually, using only floats is pretty elegant, IMO. At least more elegant than overflowing into negative numbers, or 1/2 => 1. 00:35:45 prxq: You have a bad case of the stupid 00:35:45 it only dates back to at least 8-bit home computer BASIC 00:36:37 (read-from-string " n  (1 2 3 4 5): (evenp n)") => (SOME (LAMBDA (N) (EVENP N)) '(1 2 3 4 5)) 00:36:41 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@74-92-190-254-Indianapolis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:36:43 -!- emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:36:52 Hexstream: I think the official name of the database is AllegroGraph.. 00:37:03 the funny thing is, even when you declared a variable as an integer (as in A% instead of A), for doing calculations it would convert from int->float, do the calc, then do float->int back for storage 00:37:03 -!- Guest75329 [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:37:20 so ints were actually slower, but used less RAM 00:37:21 Guest75329 [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has joined #lisp 00:37:29 prxq: Exchanging a traditional set of problems with a different, exotic set of problems is not what most would call "elegance". 00:38:08 -!- tritchey_ [~tritchey@74-92-190-253-Indianapolis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:38:09 *Phoodus* is pointing out the non-exoticness of the situation 00:38:19 Hexstream: the thing is that when it comes to numbers, most people's expectations are thoroughly unrealistic. 00:38:22 stassats: Is there a standardized keyboard layout optimized for all these funky APL symbols? 00:38:51 prxq: unrealistic? all CL systems already do what i expect 00:38:59 emacs has apl input method, iirc 00:39:18 drdo: then you have very small expectations 00:39:19 except for the reader part, which is trivial 00:39:20 Depends what group of people you refer to by "most people". 00:39:42 In my bubble, "most people" means "most programmers"... 00:39:57 Hexstream: and that is about right 00:39:58 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:40:14 prxq: How can you honestly think that using ieee floats to represent integers is a good idea? 00:40:23 -!- Athas` [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:40:24 Hexstream: i guess something like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:APL-keybd2.svg 00:40:51 emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:57 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.48.134] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:57 stassats: Well, is it supported out-of-the-box in operating systems and/or do you know a repository of APL keyboard layout files somewhere? How do you input all those funky APL symbols somewhere? Copy/paste from wikipedia page or something? 00:42:23 APL symbols yourself* 00:42:35 ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has joined #lisp 00:42:58 from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols 00:43:21 and closer-to-apl is a misnomer, it's closer-to-math in reality 00:43:27 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:43:59 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:44:02 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.48.134] has joined #lisp 00:44:11 stassats: Ok, but did you make this thing for comedic value only or you actually plan to use it for real? (I'm assuming the former...) 00:44:42 With proper keyboard and emacs support, this might actually be feasible somewhat, who knows. 00:44:51 for comedic, for something real i'd have to do more than just reader-macros 00:45:02 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:11 Ok, well that could just have been an humble start ;) 00:45:17 with reader macros i can't look back 00:45:18 drdo: it at least solves the overflow problems more gracefully than mod (2^64) arithmetic that is so common today, without bignums. That's elegant. 00:45:39 prxq: no, bignums are elegant 00:45:54 and even mod 2^64 is more elegant 00:46:36 Getting innacurate over some arbitrary limit is the opposite of elegance 00:47:05 mod 2^64 also gets inaccurate over some arbitrary limit 00:47:14 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:47:17 it just loses high bits instead of low bits 00:47:18 and pretty badly so 00:47:22 But at least the result is catastrophic failure. 00:47:27 Not silent subtle failure. 00:47:33 righ 00:47:35 right 00:47:46 -!- astoon [~astoon@92.243.187.229] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:47:48 unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 00:48:10 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 00:48:24 exactly 00:48:39 Failing spectacularly is better than subtely 00:48:44 so you think a car that explodes as soon as you make a mistake is a good design? 00:48:48 younder [~john@9.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 00:48:52 rmckenzie [~rmckenzie@pool-74-105-153-111.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:53 prxq: In programming, it is. 00:48:57 prxq: No, good design is my car not exploding 00:49:00 hence bignums 00:49:02 erland uses that philosophy right? 00:49:15 yep, die early, retry 00:49:18 fail early 00:49:22 erlang? 00:49:22 erland? 00:49:29 yeah I remember that from the lectures 00:49:32 erlang** 00:49:35 Phoodus: that's grim! 00:49:38 The message based PL 00:49:55 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:49:58 stassats: not in a system where there's nearly-free resurrection 00:50:10 Hexstream: normally, it will explode at your customer's. Still a good idea? 00:50:20 There was a story about some web service that had a "doom monkey" or something, killing parts of the distributed process randomly to continually test the system for resistance to, or rather acceptance of, failures on EC2. 00:50:32 prxq: We have the technology to make it not explode 00:50:45 do we? 00:50:53 Bignums... 00:50:58 a commonly accepted stat is that 80% of code is error handling 00:51:01 Your idea of solving a problem is closing your eyes and pretending the problem doesn't exist 00:51:35 I think it's much lower, but that it *should* be 80% :) 00:51:44 no, it's letting the inevitable happen, and recovering (in the erlang model) 00:51:44 drdo: no, it is understanding enough of the problem to realize what number types make sense for computations. For a lot of them, bignums and rationals are a disaster. 00:52:05 as opposing to having to predict every single possible failure vector 00:52:06 Erlang is a message based sytem developed by the swedes. No good sor shared memory. However it does single processor collaboration over the net well. Built by a tele communications company. 00:52:13 unkanon: I think it needs to be that only in languages with an inferior condition system. 00:52:19 prxq: And i think you should have the choice of using such types 00:52:19 anyway, this isn't getting anywhere. 00:52:27 But i don't think that should be the default 00:52:49 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@115.189.204.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:52:54 beach: like the kinds of language I work with for a living :( 00:53:10 unkanon: Very possibly, yes. 00:53:16 Read Peter Seibel 'Coders at work' for a interview with it's creator. 00:53:18 does anyone know if a new lisp standard is being worked on? 00:53:43 Quadrescence: There was the CLtL3 effort. 00:54:05 drdo: well, I think if there is a dot in it, it should be a float. So there. 00:54:10 Quadrescence, There is no new ANSI standard being worked on 00:54:39 prxq: And i think you have bad ideas 00:54:40 When you make the new lisp standard, make it so that "1." is parsed as a double float please. :) 00:54:43 at least by default. 00:55:24 that's weird notation 00:55:27 It's ideas like yours that caused the most hilarious bug ever 00:55:27 hm, I should get on this team of The Next Lisp Standard 00:55:31 year 2000 00:56:00 Quadrescence: I don't think drewc and fe[nl]ix have worked on CLtL3 for a while, so there might be room for you on the team. 00:56:16 i'm waiting for year(MOST-POSITIVE-BIGNUM+1) 00:56:34 is/was that effort fully backwards compatible with the current spec, or are they daring to break things? 00:56:41 stassats: don't you mean (1+ MOST-POSITIVE-BIGNUM) 00:56:42 drdo: which comes to show that have simply no idea 00:56:52 Quadrescence: no 00:56:53 actually, won't there be a year 2038 bug? 00:56:59 because of unix time or something? 00:57:02 unkanon: not with bignums! 00:57:14 bignums solve everything, even global warming 00:57:17 true 00:57:21 true 00:57:28 at a price, of course 00:57:29 unkanon: yes, on x86/32 bit sytems 00:57:31 Quadrescence: don't you mean T? 00:57:46 Phoodus: Read the web page to get your answer. 00:57:56 stassats: (defconstant true t) 00:58:28 What are you guys talking about? 640KB ought to be enough for everyone 00:58:36 anyone still use 32 bit systems? 00:58:41 ME!!! 00:58:41 a lot 00:59:20 rmckenzie: i can't hear you from my ivory tower 00:59:30 rotfl 00:59:46 lol 01:01:06 I only use 8^n bit systems 01:01:26 Land of Lisp - opinions before I buy? 01:01:32 no bug will ever be as dumb as the y2k though because there's no excuse for not representing years with 4 digits, storage notwithstanding 01:01:57 unkanon: The IPv4 guys thought the same 01:02:03 rmckenzie, I have one. Decent intro. 01:02:38 drdo: have you heard "The Day the Routers Died"? :) 01:02:43 rmckenzie, look at the amazon.com the have a look inside the book feature. 01:02:48 drdo: right, same problem there 01:03:08 Seems like people haven't learned the lesson 01:03:09 they 01:03:16 p_l|backup: No, i haven't 01:03:40 drdo: search it on youtube, it was sung during a conference of various ISPs etc. and is actually about this problem :D 01:05:48 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:06:01 hahaha 01:06:08 all my traceroutes showing stars 01:06:17 awesome vid. 01:11:38 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:13 quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:52 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:22:27 -!- freik [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:24:21 It takes balls to hold a music introduction as that at a computer conference. 01:24:46 mcspiff [~user@DC1FC.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 01:24:54 love it 01:25:40 daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 01:26:11 is there a way of getting the first element from the first sublist, the second from the second, third from the third... etc? 01:26:39 daedra, yes 01:26:44 I have something like ((t nil nil) (nil t nil) (nil nil t)) 01:27:00 daedra, cadr caddr etc 01:27:00 why? 01:27:20 recursively, for any length of input list 01:27:39 But you should probaly use structure (type :list) 01:27:58 (loop for i from 0 for sublist in '((t nil nil) (nil t nil) (nil nil t)) collect (nth i sublist)) => (T T T) 01:27:58 astoon [~astoon@92.243.187.229] has joined #lisp 01:27:58 clearer exposition 01:28:10 daedra: but why do you need that? 01:29:24 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.114.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:29:52 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-178-64-240-14.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:31:59 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6881.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:07 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:22 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01241e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:40:05 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 01:40:43 just for fun :) 01:47:52 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:48:40 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:48:48 -!- daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #lisp 01:49:41 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:58:28 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 01:59:42 -!- rmckenzie [~rmckenzie@pool-74-105-153-111.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:04:19 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:04:19 -!- beach [~user@116.118.46.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:06:47 Is there a tidy way to skip n iterations of a loop? 02:08:07 Or rather, is it a bad idea to change i in a (loop for i from 0 to 10 ...)? 02:09:04 aidalgol: Do you want (loop for i from 0 to 10 by 2 ...)? 02:09:26 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:09:43 -!- ferada` [~user@g224147026.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:09:47 -!- froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:09:59 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:10:21 sellout: No, I'm using i to index a string and I need to jump ahead k characters when the ith character of the string is a certain character. 02:10:59 aidalgol: Yeah, then probably just INCF it in that case. 02:13:41 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 02:15:10 -!- astoon [~astoon@92.243.187.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:23:57 -!- paul0 [~paulogeye@189.114.202.204.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 02:27:40 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:29:04 -!- emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:29:26 emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:34 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night.] 02:33:25 Is there a loop clause equivalent to with that initializes the variables every time, not just once? 02:33:47 for 02:34:53 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:34:59 Oh, I didn't realise that could be used with =. 02:35:29 -!- emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:37:59 emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:26 Ryan__ [~Ryan@12.107.119.130] has joined #lisp 02:45:33 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 02:45:50 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:47:28 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:34 -!- Ryan__ [~Ryan@12.107.119.130] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:58:49 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@124.76.12.110] has joined #lisp 03:01:22 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 03:01:50 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.12.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:02:37 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:44 Can someone help me avoid divide-by-zero errors in this? http://pastebin.com/R7CmtShp 03:04:14 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:05:00 -!- Guest43253 is now known as pkhuong 03:05:41 -!- Guest75329 [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:06:29 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:07 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:09:47 aidalgol: so divisor is sometimes zero; what do you want to happen in that case? 03:10:16 sm` [~s@77.29.100.59] has joined #lisp 03:10:48 skip the product? or should it never happen - ie its an error condition 03:11:04 -!- heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:11:13 fuck, why does fsbv's libffi compile on ffi-unix.c break when my env variables are in effect ? like various cflags and gcc and cc specs, the error is not due to them having false values, it's due to sbcl not managing to hand it over to it, it tells me unavailable argument after the env variables...and the libffi's arguments beginning with -m32 -I/blah won't get read ... 03:11:18 Guest75329 [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has joined #lisp 03:11:48 spacebat: This is my method: let product = a * b * c * d * e, then divide product by a and multiply by f to get the product of the next five digits, and so on. 03:11:58 Ryan__ [~Ryan@12.107.119.130] has joined #lisp 03:12:15 aidalgol: so is a allowed to be 0? 03:12:50 spacebat: Yeah, I'm just not sure how to handle that case and carry on with the digits after that. 03:13:20 you should skip multiplying by 0 03:13:36 or keep all partial products around in a list 03:13:58 and never divide 03:15:26 Pursuit [~josh@host-067-131-054-207.dhcp.fewpb.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:26 -!- dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:35 oh man, unsetting my env variables lets me at least load fsbv and get the compilation done, after that i can start sbcl again in an environment where my settings are in effect without any problems, at least regarding loading libs..... 03:16:01 dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:38 -!- mcspiff [~user@DC1FC.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:16:46 03:16:47 But say I have 1 9 4 5 0 7 0. I need to skip past both zeros, and reaccumulate five consecutive digits, but one of *those* could be zero. 03:17:28 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:47 you could retain the count of zeros that entered at the tail, and subtract how many left via the head 03:17:49 aidalgol: try putting "unless (zerop divisor)" on the line after divisor is defined 03:17:55 So when skipping past the first zero, if I just blindly accumulate the next five digits (calculate their product), then I'll end up dividing by zero. 03:17:56 whenever you encounter a zero, just pretend it's a beginning of a string 03:18:24 stassats: So restart the loop? 03:18:33 no 03:18:40 Then how? 03:19:07 think! 03:19:34 thinking got us lisp, now we can think with lisp 03:20:02 spacebat: Gives an incorrect answer: http://pastebin.com/LamXKmxU 03:20:11 ah well 03:20:48 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21:09 you want 5 nonzero digits from number-string, what if there aren't 5? 03:21:27 the code doesn't seem to be correct at all, even not considering zeros 03:21:35 :) 03:21:37 -!- ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:22:50 smka [~s@77.29.241.34] has joined #lisp 03:23:11 *Phoodus* agrees the value in stassats's suggestion 03:23:19 It's supposed to be a more efficient version of this: http://pastebin.com/J2tnKAaG 03:23:24 Guess it's just broken. 03:23:46 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:24:35 -!- Pursuit [~josh@host-067-131-054-207.dhcp.fewpb.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:25:27 -!- sm` [~s@77.29.100.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:27:52 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:31:49 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-79-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:31:53 jimrthy [~jimrthy@ip68-13-249-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:46 aidalgol: here's a more efficient version: (loop for i to (- (length number-string) 5) maximize (reduce #'* number-string :start i :end (+ i 5) :key #'digit-char-p)) 03:34:02 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-79-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:28 stassats: How is that more efficient? 03:34:41 it doesn't copy 03:34:47 Ohhhh..... 03:36:01 Thank you. Too used to the lack of niceties of C, and still learning my around Common Lisp. 03:37:39 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.12.110] has joined #lisp 03:40:41 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@124.76.12.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:40:59 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zdjlkbpzunsugovo] has joined #lisp 03:43:17 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:43:33 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:37 -!- jimrthy [~jimrthy@ip68-13-249-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has left #lisp 03:44:52 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:49:00 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.126.185] has joined #lisp 03:50:41 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-11-188.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 03:50:46 -!- Guest75329 is now known as Caffeine 03:51:28 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:51:58 aidalgol: the approach you're pursuing is even more efficient, but i won't show the code 03:52:55 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:32 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-79-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:55:56 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-79-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:53 -!- emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:00:59 csmax_ [~max@p5790F559.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:05 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:02:12 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:03:58 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-79-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:04:04 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-156-233.lns21.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:07 -!- csmax [~max@p5790F1B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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[~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-94.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 04:47:22 rread [~rread@c-24-5-127-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:52 -!- dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dakeyras] 04:52:53 -!- jomat [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:30 jomat [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has joined #lisp 04:54:19 anyone ever come across this issue in ecl: The function CLASS-SLOTS is undefined. 04:54:20 ebzzry [~ebzzry@203.213.202.186] has joined #lisp 04:54:30 trying to get clsql to compile with ecl and it seems it doesn't like the metaclass 04:59:38 -!- mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:00:04 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 05:01:29 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-94.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:02:05 sl33k_ [~ubuntu@117.195.11.104] has joined #lisp 05:02:35 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 05:03:46 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:06:03 az [~az@p4FE4F3D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:32 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:06:41 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F3D6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:07:53 beach [~user@116.118.47.44] has joined #lisp 05:15:18 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #lisp 05:19:54 marioxcc [~user@200.92.20.164] has joined #lisp 05:19:55 hello 05:20:51 lo 05:21:24 in SLIME, how I can see which line a error comes from? 05:21:35 i'm only able to see the function, not the specific line 05:21:36 press v on the frame 05:21:57 yes, i mean that 05:22:05 it highlight the whole function 05:22:15 i'm using SBCL 05:22:32 <_3b> compile the function with higher debug settings and try again 05:22:35 then your function isn't optimized for debugging 05:22:39 ok 05:22:58 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B3275C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:32 -!- emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:23:44 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.222] has joined #lisp 05:24:19 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B3276C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:24:49 it works, thanks 05:25:03 common lisp, slime, emacs, sbcl 05:25:08 they're amazing 05:25:10 -!- sl33k_ [~ubuntu@117.195.11.104] has left #lisp 05:25:24 than i'm no longer surprised to be surprised 05:28:08 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:28 nah, they're too primitive 05:29:58 what do you use, if not the aforesaid software? 05:30:45 all of the above 05:31:09 oh, so you're using the privitive tools too? :s 05:31:57 turns out i do 05:33:09 so why they're privitive, exactly? 05:33:25 they're not sufficiently smart 05:33:45 in which sense? 05:34:17 :| Got a 'deleting unreachable code' at the very start of a (defun ... 05:34:18 :/ 05:34:58 the defun header is wrong then 05:35:01 marioxcc: they don't understand code sufficiently enough to perform more clever tasks 05:35:01 either that, of you found a bug 05:35:09 stassats: like which ones? 05:35:41 you don't expect them to give you a comprehensive description of the bug in english or your native language, do you? :/ 05:35:45 <_3b> marioxcc: like indenting correctly? :p 05:35:56 my defun header is wrong? 05:35:57 slime, doesn't really understand code, so you can't, for example, say to it "rename this variable" 05:35:58 :| 05:36:26 well, it is difficult to tell what is a variable and what is not 05:36:33 but I agree it would be a nice feature 05:37:19 balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:33 <_3b> not inherently difficult, just difficult due to the combination of language features and editor/tools architecture 05:37:49 maybe 05:38:08 I would appreciate very much if you implement these yourself, both SLIME and GNU Emacs are free software :) 05:38:22 <_3b> relatively slow interpreted/bytecode/whatever it is language doesn't help 05:38:36 -!- azaq231 [~derivecto@p4FF691D7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:39:03 <_3b> 'free software' doesn't help when teh solution is 'replace it' :p 05:39:07 marioxcc: i am one of the active committers of Slime, so i know its limitations 05:40:44 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:40:49 -!- kurtsmith [~kurtsmith@68-117-136-221.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has left #lisp 05:40:51 then I would tell you can rebuild the part of SLIME which puts these limitations 05:40:52 the only automated code-editing which slime is doing currently is modifying :export clauses of defpackage 05:41:05 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 05:41:13 emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:33 -!- balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:44:26 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:49 Pursuit [~josh@host-067-131-054-207.dhcp.fewpb.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:49 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:51:52 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:52:24 what's the proper way to declare ignorable functions? 05:52:39 Is it ok to just go (if foo (...)) ? 05:52:47 to do ... if foo is not nil ? 05:52:49 (flet ((f ())) 05:52:50 (declare (ignorable x))) 05:52:51 (declare (ignorable #'function)) 05:52:55 ok, thanks 05:53:07 -!- emef0 [~user@c-71-231-64-121.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:53:17 -!- jomat [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:53:24 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-zwbquhyfzvfiscuz] has joined #lisp 05:53:27 jsoft: yes, but (when foo (...)) is preferred 05:53:33 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-zwbquhyfzvfiscuz] has quit [Changing host] 05:53:33 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:53:34 jomat_ [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has joined #lisp 05:53:43 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.222] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 05:53:55 Ahh ok, thanks. 05:54:21 jsoft: also, if there is more than one expression you will need to surround them with a progn 05:54:36 (if test then else) 05:54:46 good morning all 05:54:55 it is night here :) 05:54:56 no, if there is more than one expression you will use COND 05:54:59 but thanks you 05:55:09 yes, WHEN doesn't need the progn, as it only contains a single body 05:55:27 -!- Ryan__ [~Ryan@12.107.119.130] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:55:31 stassats: I mean, if you somehow really have to use if 05:55:42 Phoodus: WHEN contains an implicit progn 05:55:47 right 05:56:29 -!- Pursuit [~josh@host-067-131-054-207.dhcp.fewpb.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:56:39 in elisp else clause of IF is a progn 05:57:11 oh 05:57:12 how asymmetric 05:57:18 what an horror 05:57:22 yeah 05:59:45 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:23 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:19 Pursuit [~pursuit@host-067-131-054-207.dhcp.fewpb.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:47 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.48.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:16:06 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.48.134] has joined #lisp 06:19:17 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-64.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:23:50 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:29:16 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:30:37 -!- _ism [~frinnn@i59F61769.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:31:03 -!- marioxcc [~user@200.92.20.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:32:38 -!- loxs [~loxs@77.70.57.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:33:50 biTT [~frinnn@i59F60EA7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:35:43 -!- quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39:52 evening #lisp 06:41:40 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:51:18 morning 06:54:35 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 06:57:23 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:58:34 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.12.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:01:48 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has joined #lisp 07:02:59 pocket_ [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:03:50 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22624.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04:01 I think I can reuse the logic from for this problem , but since it involves a matrix, I (don't think) I can use reduce. Any suggestions? 07:10:32 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zdjlkbpzunsugovo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:13:56 ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has joined #lisp 07:19:03 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:21:26 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-64.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:26:34 hey slyrus 07:29:28 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:29:36 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:31:35 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:31:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:31:35 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:40:52 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 07:42:53 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 07:43:19 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:51:25 -!- abaw [~user@2001:b020:c:2:21c:c4ff:fe5f:26c8] has left #lisp 07:52:56 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:57:04 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:49 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:58:27 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:58:58 kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-4-209.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:59:51 flip214 [~marek@h081217084238.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 07:59:51 -!- flip214 [~marek@h081217084238.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Changing host] 07:59:51 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 08:00:04 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 08:02:02 -!- Pursuit [~pursuit@host-067-131-054-207.dhcp.fewpb.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:03:45 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:40 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ymnrcrrhnorgcjfg] has joined #lisp 08:05:58 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:27 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-120-140.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:08:22 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:12:51 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-89-107.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:16:16 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-89-245.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:17:38 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:17:50 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-ypfquwxyyodxaems] has joined #lisp 08:20:41 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-36-4-209.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:21:00 morning 08:22:24 hello drdo 08:26:00 Adamant_ [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 08:26:10 -!- Adamant_ [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:26:17 Adamant_ [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:17 -!- Adamant_ [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:26:17 Adamant_ [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 08:28:38 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:28:38 -!- Adamant_ is now known as Adamant 08:29:11 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-128-148.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:36:31 good morning, vietnam! 08:38:00 good morning 08:38:30 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:38:55 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:39:17 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41:17 morning tic 08:41:25 Isnt (gethash "key" ht) supposed to return something other than NIL NIL ? 08:41:29 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 08:41:33 and morning DrForr 08:41:35 eh 08:41:37 morning drdo 08:41:46 jsoft: Is it? 08:41:49 no. 08:42:31 <_3b> jsoft: maybe you wanted a hash table that compares keys by contents instead of identity? 08:42:33 Well glad that got sorted out. 08:42:56 schmrkc: lol. 08:43:00 <_3b> jsoft: note that 2 arbitrary strings with teh contents #\k #\e #\y probably are not identical 08:43:34 Would that be :test #'string-equal ? 08:43:43 by chance? 08:43:52 (in make-hash-table) 08:44:02 or just #'equal, IIRC 08:44:10 <_3b> unfortunately CL hash tables only allow a specific set of :test arguments, eq, eql, equal, equalp 08:44:24 <_3b> so #'equal or #'equalp depending on whether you want case folding or not 08:44:57 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 08:45:21 Hmm, thanks. 08:45:50 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mznjgqdczcezkqoh] has joined #lisp 08:46:07 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 08:46:36 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:56:30 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:58:22 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:58:50 fisxoj [~fisxoj@149.43.217.10] has joined #lisp 09:00:21 some (most?) CL implementations allow a larger set of tests as an extension 09:04:25 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-44.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:06:01 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757db0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:32 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:10:05 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 09:11:55 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.126.185] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:22:30 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.126.185] has joined #lisp 09:22:42 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:27:26 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@149.43.217.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:32:48 tfb [~tfb@92.41.40.73.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:33:13 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.40.73.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 09:36:25 -!- ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:37:24 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.12.110] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:38:33 DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:38:33 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 09:38:33 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 09:38:55 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:43:25 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:18 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:45:57 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-226-230-252.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:47:18 mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 09:48:39 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 10:00:35 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:05:48 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:46 H4ns``` [~user@pD4B9EA25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:42 dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:09:41 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.105.74] has joined #lisp 10:10:07 -!- H4ns`` [~user@pD4B9E00A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:10:19 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007020.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 10:11:03 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 10:18:06 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 10:18:49 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:20:50 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ymnrcrrhnorgcjfg] has left #lisp 10:22:25 -!- unkanon-work [~unkanon@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:22:55 jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 10:23:45 unkanon-work [~unkanon@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:25:05 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:28 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:35:45 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:36:10 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:37:47 How would I pass an extra argument to the function used in MAPHASH ? 10:38:22 <_3b> (lambda (k v) (foo extra arguments k v)) ? 10:39:16 <_3b> (or some curry/partial application function from a lib, etc) 10:39:47 hmmmmmmmm 10:40:08 first time ive come accross a use for lambda :D 10:40:14 (for me, anyhow) 10:40:44 that's pretty cool :) 10:43:10 jsoft are you starting out with CL" 10:43:12 ?* 10:44:52 -!- unkanon-work [~unkanon@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:45:51 -!- pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:46:44 unkanon-work [~unkanon@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:47:31 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:47:47 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:48:34 qfr: yeah 10:48:47 What languages are you coming from? 10:49:15 qfr: ive been away from coding for about a year, but used to use python and c 10:49:18 mostly 10:49:27 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:49:57 I saw lambdas in python, but never really used them, did not seem to have a reason to 10:51:25 Well that lambda thing worked 10:52:07 lambdas in Python are not so useful because the language does not permit multi line lambdas and is generally pretty sensitive about multi line statements because of the whole semantic whitespace thing 10:52:23 Python used to be my dominant programming language but I never really used lambdas there either 10:53:10 Now my primary scripting language is Ruby, I work far more with lambdas there although mostly just blocks beacause that's simply how you operate on data structures there 10:53:46 True. Never really got into python 10:53:48 erm, ruby 10:54:39 heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:17 morning schmrkc 11:06:28 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:06:49 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:07:17 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:08:03 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:15 pdelgallego_ [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:10:17 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007020.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:10:48 -!- tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:12:23 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007003.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 11:15:16 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007003.public.telering.at] has quit [Client Quit] 11:15:24 araujo [~araujo@190.38.51.34] has joined #lisp 11:15:24 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.51.34] has quit [Changing host] 11:15:24 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:15:34 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007003.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 11:18:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-47-61.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:18:30 (<3 I loop) 11:19:09 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012743.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:27 (assert (<3-p I loop) () "programmer is ill") 11:22:23 Am I right? 11:23:09 billitch [~billitch@78.250.223.143] has joined #lisp 11:25:50 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 11:26:36 *jtza8* comes to the conclusion that he's simply loopy. 11:27:32 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007003.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:27:32 Oh well, sorry for spamming the channel then. 11:27:34 zomgbie_ [~jesus@212095007058.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 11:27:37 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:28:49 jtza8: For starters, you make no sense. 11:29:34 I think he's using emoticons 11:29:49 Lost on me. 11:30:11 "I love loop" and "if I love loop, then nil, else state that the programmer is ill". 11:30:36 *sigh* 11:31:47 <_3b> hmm, i guess assert does return nil, not sure i'd ever thought about that 11:32:15 But it's not clear what <3 does. Any side effect? Would not calling (<3 I loop) cause (<3-p I loop) to fail? 11:33:24 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 11:33:33 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:35:20 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.105.74] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:38:03 Hmm. I'm not sure if I should worry or not. I recompiled emacs with -mtune=pentium4 rather than -mtune=native and my lockup problem vanished. 11:40:14 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.223.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:41:11 billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.74] has joined #lisp 11:52:35 Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:54:38 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@212095007058.public.telering.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59:43 urandom__ [~user@p548A520C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:04:47 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-ypfquwxyyodxaems] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:07:46 ruDDerX [~Rudder@gi08-vl58.nsb-fw1.mgt.bitpro.no] has joined #lisp 12:08:50 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:35 -!- jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:09:53 I'm a lisp newbie. Can anyone give me a hint to why (format t "Hello World) does not work in emacs ielm? Error is: *** Eval error *** Wrong type argument: stringp, t. (nil does'nt work either)... 12:10:37 <_3b> #emacs knows more about elisp than we do 12:10:44 Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:11:33 emacs doesn't support the common lisp format function AFAIK 12:11:39 <_3b> or if you were trying to write common lisp, you probably want slime instead of ielm 12:13:05 http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Formatting-Strings.html#index-format-257 12:13:33 _3b: Thanks. just assumed I could test all syntaxes in ielm instead of reloading .emacs all the time... 12:13:47 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-vhzoqtivqpjazizf] has joined #lisp 12:14:07 <_3b> ok, if it is for .emacs, ielm is probably appropriate, and #emacs for lamguage help :) 12:14:34 ignas_ [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:15:51 df_aldur: I've been reading that and about 300 other pages. But if you read it and comapre it to my problem it does not cover it. The problem is that format is supposed to accept nil, t or stream as param #1 but I can't get ti to work... 12:16:01 ruDDerX: emacs has emacs lisp. That is the subject of #emacs. 12:16:21 ruDDerX: format is for Common Lisp, which is a different language 12:16:33 tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:37 <_3b> ruDDerX: elisp format doesn't take that t/nil arg, that is common lisp format 12:16:38 prxq: ok 12:16:57 ruDDerX: are you after common lisp, or emacs lisp? 12:17:36 prxq: I program .emacs to write macros in eMaics 12:18:24 ruDDerX: What is eMaics? 12:18:25 That would be emacs lisp. What is eMaics? 12:18:37 sorry. Typo. emacs 12:19:05 ok 12:19:17 i's actually aquamacs (emacs for osx) 12:19:19 ruDDerX: Then what prxq says. You want Emacs Lisp. Avoid reading Common Lisp documentation then, and you are better off asking #emacs for help. 12:19:29 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19:56 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:20:20 thanks guys. Just out of curiosity: What is common lisp mostly used for? 12:20:46 ruDDerX: It's a general-purpose language. It is used for pretty much everything. 12:21:01 oki. Thanks. Bye 12:22:07 -!- benny [~benny@i577A8D4E.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:26:02 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:26:14 deek0146 [~alasdair@AAnnecy-256-1-104-134.w90-9.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:26:58 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:27:54 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:19 -!- younder [~john@9.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:34:11 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:40:49 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012743.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:41:02 -!- billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:45:54 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 12:50:39 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:52:20 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 12:53:11 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.91.1] 12:55:33 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.94.215] has joined #lisp 13:01:05 bsod1 [~osa1@88.244.143.60] has joined #lisp 13:02:13 kenyao [~kenyao@113.111.186.252] has joined #lisp 13:02:30 -!- kenyao [~kenyao@113.111.186.252] has quit [Client Quit] 13:03:23 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:04:24 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.126.185] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:04:46 -!- m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 13:05:34 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:35 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:06:42 kenyao [~kenyao@113.111.186.252] has joined #lisp 13:06:44 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:56 -!- kenyao [~kenyao@113.111.186.252] has quit [Quit: My God! Gone...] 13:13:45 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 13:15:30 ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has joined #lisp 13:15:50 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:16 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:17:17 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-94.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:41 toxicFork [~JBouncer@87-194-94-248.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:18:23 hello #lisp, so (if/when is for one thing, right, how can I say "if a AND b" without having to nest?? 13:18:49 <_3b> (if (and a b) ...)? 13:19:12 oh! 13:19:16 *toxicFork* slaps self 13:19:22 thanks! 13:20:48 *toxicFork* shyly walks backwards 13:20:50 -!- toxicFork [~JBouncer@87-194-94-248.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 13:25:42 kdr2 [~kdr2@123.122.121.174] has joined #lisp 13:26:31 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-94.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:27:52 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:29:21 incandenza__ [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:32 -!- incandenza [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:30:01 -!- incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:31:15 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.126.185] has joined #lisp 13:31:40 incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:49 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:31:49 -!- Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:33:06 dav_it [~dav_it@unaffiliated/dav-it] has joined #lisp 13:34:28 -!- dav_it [~dav_it@unaffiliated/dav-it] has quit [Client Quit] 13:35:02 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:17 -!- incandenza__ [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:35:45 incandenza [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:12 -!- incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:37:47 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 13:37:57 incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:32 I'ive got a hash table of lists. 13:39:50 And when I want to add a new item to one of the lists in the hash table, I was trying to just go (push 'new-item (gethash 'key my-hash-table)) but it did not work 13:40:06 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:40:19 I seem to need to use setf instead? 13:40:23 are you sure? 13:41:35 hmm 13:42:14 (setf my-list (gethash 'new-item my-hash-table)) , and then I was doing a push on my-list 13:42:31 And it did not seem to work. 13:42:38 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:43:15 that would indeed not modify the value stored in the hashtable 13:43:29 to understand why, look at the macroexpansion of push 13:43:50 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:44:06 just running something atm 13:44:09 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 13:44:20 jsnell: in either case I mentioned above, do you mean? 13:44:55 reverse the arguments to setf 13:45:26 oh wait 13:45:31 sorry its late here 13:45:32 jsoft: (push 'new-item (gethash 'key table nil)) is a pretty common idiom. is that not working for you? 13:46:06 jsoft: and if you think it isn't, why do you think it isn't? 13:46:08 looking at the expansion for (push ... (gethash)) should show why it works, and looking at (push ... my-list) should show why that doesn't 13:46:13 I'm sure it is... its the binding of my-list to the head of that list 13:46:19 and then mutating my-list 13:46:38 my-list will then share its tail with the hash-table value 13:47:04 but my-list will have an extra cons cell at the head 13:47:10 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:48:06 I should sleep and not ramble, gnight 13:48:30 Xach: It does not work when I use (setf blah (gethash ... )), and then (push 'new-item blah) 13:48:44 Im just going to look at this expansion to see whats going on. 13:49:09 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:49:46 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 13:50:01 -!- smka [~s@77.29.241.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:51:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:53:11 jsoft: Yeah, jsnell's advice is good. 13:53:15 PUSH is not a function. 13:54:37 sm` [~s@77.28.124.68] has joined #lisp 13:54:43 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.90] has joined #lisp 13:54:54 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:00 joeygibson [~joeygibso@208.52.139.50] has joined #lisp 13:56:24 I dont even know how to do this macro expand gizmo 13:56:33 MACROEXPAND 13:56:36 ? 13:56:58 (macroexpand '(push 1 list)) 13:57:05 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 13:57:05 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 13:57:05 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 13:57:18 It returns a list 13:57:43 jsoft: that list is the code that is evaluated instead. (that's how macros work) 13:57:51 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:58:13 oh I see, ' 13:58:18 jsoft: re macroexpansion: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html 13:58:25 search for MACROEXPAND-1 13:59:33 -!- ruDDerX [~Rudder@gi08-vl58.nsb-fw1.mgt.bitpro.no] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:01:17 Yeah I was on that very page, just forgot the ' 14:01:19 (push 'obj (gethash ... )) do not equals (progn (setf blah (gethash ... )) (push 'obj blah)) 14:02:15 I do not quite understand why at the moment, I am about to fall asleep 14:02:29 Maybe the answer will come to you in a dream. 14:02:34 Something to study tomorrow :) 14:02:35 Perhaps :) 14:03:21 valium97582 [~daniel@187.57.22.38] has joined #lisp 14:03:34 Most enjoyable language to learn so far though 14:04:05 ruDDerX [~Rudder@gi08-vl58.nsb-fw1.mgt.bitpro.no] has joined #lisp 14:06:53 Well, thanks for the help guys (and gals?), bit of raading then sleep time. 14:07:23 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has joined #lisp 14:07:29 (push 'obj (gethash 'key h)) = is = (setf (gethash 'key h) (cons 'obj (gethash 'key h))) 14:08:47 -!- ruDDerX [~Rudder@gi08-vl58.nsb-fw1.mgt.bitpro.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:08:48 vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 14:08:57 not quite 14:09:46 "(setf v (gethash 'key h)) (push 'obj v)" just set v to a cons which its car is 'obj and its cdr is (gethash 'key h) 14:09:54 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:12 (gethash 'key h) does not change 14:11:02 Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:11:31 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:13:35 cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:43 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:50 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:42 -!- vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:21:22 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-vhzoqtivqpjazizf] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:23:00 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:23:15 Guthur [c743cb8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.141] has joined #lisp 14:23:27 -!- kdr2 [~kdr2@123.122.121.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:23:39 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-dremlndwrjxbmmev] has joined #lisp 14:26:09 tfb [~tfb@92.41.40.73.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:27:07 sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:11 -!- sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:27:38 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-29-135.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 14:27:40 sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:39 dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has joined #lisp 14:28:44 How to exchange two values with multiple-value-bind ? 14:29:57 prljavi_hari: what exactly do you want to achieve ? 14:30:00 -!- Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:31:25 a is 10, b is 20 , to b become a and a become b 14:31:52 prljavi_hari: (rotatef a b) 14:32:04 ok 14:32:17 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 14:36:31 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:39 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:09 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-29-135.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 14:39:54 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:42:50 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007032.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 14:43:46 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:44:42 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:46 azaq23 [~derivecto@p4FF691D7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:36 ziga` [~user@stargate.fs.uni-lj.si] has joined #lisp 14:46:14 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:51:17 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 14:53:52 mcspiff [~user@142.68.77.111] has joined #lisp 14:56:06 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:31 Does anyone have commonQt working under OS X? 15:03:04 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:03:36 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.40.73.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 15:03:51 -!- sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 15:04:23 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:08:31 mcspiff: sohail, I think 15:08:44 -!- jomat_ is now known as jomat 15:08:47 -!- jomat is now known as jomatv6 15:09:25 lichtblau: as long as there is light at the end of the tunnel ;-) 15:10:32 perhaps you can ask him for his tips the next time he's here 15:11:02 I'll do that. My problem isn't even with commonQt as such, I just can't figure out how to get smoke built and installed 15:11:37 (ql:install-foreign-library "smoke") 15:11:43 -!- sm` [~s@77.28.124.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:11:45 i wish! 15:12:13 heh that would certainly be worth the update-client... 15:12:15 http://codepad.org/JGrCKRkJ and http://codepad.org/85mvV04e are the pastes he made 15:12:59 Xach: I was idly wondering about using quicklisp for mingw packaging the other day :-) given that mingw is a problem in search of a package manager 15:13:07 the first one has his instructions 15:13:27 lichtblau: woah, that looks like what I needed, thank you! 15:13:39 mcspiff: homebrew (the port system) has qt at least, I'll look into making a formula for SmokeQT 15:14:29 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:35 antifuchs: yeah I've been trying to get the version in macports to play along... I think I'm just too clueless about Qt under OS X in general 15:17:42 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:17 tmh [63972a2a@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:18:34 Greetings lispers! 15:19:11 WonTu [~WonTu@p57B5425B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:25 -!- WonTu [~WonTu@p57B5425B.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 15:20:41 *Xach* loses hope for fast clisp 15:23:49 -!- ifaria [~user@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:23:55 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:24:01 kanru [~kanru@118-160-160-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:57 Xach: I feel your pain. 15:25:00 _ism [~frinnn@i59F60EA7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:27:28 -!- biTT [~frinnn@i59F60EA7.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:28:00 what went wrong with clisp? 15:28:05 *cmm* hopes clisp is still quick, even if it is not very fast 15:28:56 Xach: the --asdf-tree option to buildapp worked perfectly, btw 15:29:04 cmm: Someone told me the official optimization advice for clisp is "write speed-critical code in C, use FFI" 15:29:46 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 15:29:59 albk [~user@host86-147-29-157.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:05 *Xach* wonders if that is the only route, must email clisp experts to find out 15:30:35 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:30:56 Xach: I thought the clisp claim-to-fame was platform independent FASL files. It has never been know for speed. 15:31:06 you could write an assembler, I guess 15:31:22 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 15:31:38 platform independent fasl files doesn't sound like a very good selling point 15:31:45 question for #lisp, if you had $50 in Borders gift cards, would you buy Land of Lisp or save it for something else? 15:31:55 well, that makes sense in light of the fact that clisp is bytecode-only. if not by design then by the rules of reality (anyone who would contemplate adding native compilation to clisp is better off spending his efforts on some of the already-native-code implementations. QED) 15:31:58 mcspiff: I'd get PCL, myself 15:32:02 mcspiff: Do you own Practical Comon Lisp? 15:32:09 tmh: I still had some hope that there might be some unportable clisp-only trick to getting fast primitive arithmetic of some sort. 15:32:13 I don't own it, but I've used the website 15:32:17 <_3b> borders seems to have a rather poor selection of lisp books :( 15:32:19 so why one would use clisp if sbcl is faster? 15:32:33 faster compilation 15:32:38 Dranik: it's got better distribution penetration 15:32:40 <_3b> Dranik: sbcl isn't faster on all the platforms clisp runs on 15:32:45 _3b: its actually for Chapters/Indigo but I figured I'd Americanize my question ;-) 15:32:48 mcspiff: Then buy the book. I use the website as well, but have a dead tree copy siting on my shelf. It's called supporting the author. 15:32:58 drdo: I don't think I've heard that mentioned as an advantage before. Is it really faster? 15:32:58 drdo: platform-independent fasls are useful. not critically useful, but useful nevertheless 15:33:21 *ZabaQ* thought clisp had jit 15:33:37 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 15:33:43 Xach: I didn't do any serious benchmarks, but it sure seems to load up stuff faster 15:33:45 tmh: well, thats a fair point actually. I guess my next question would be would it be just a useful to buy Coders at Work then? I haven't read that yet 15:33:56 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:34:09 <_3b> mcspiff: ah, in that case it might depend on what the other options are :) 15:34:13 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:34:16 crod [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:34:40 mcspiff: Coders at Work is a book about coders at work, PCL is a textbook on Common Lisp 15:34:47 mcspiff: Heh, I have that one as well. It's not useful if you want to learn lisp. It's more entertaining and provides a little peek at the minds of great ones. 15:34:56 what's with this channel and false dichotomies lately? 15:34:58 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 15:35:13 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 15:35:34 Gaap [~Geep@95.233.41.139] has joined #lisp 15:35:36 hi all 15:36:01 hello 15:36:05 can you please tell me a good book for starting LISP? :) 15:36:07 haha not trying to imply a false dichotomy at all. I asked about LoL but I don't have my heart set on a "learning lisp book". Maybe the right question is "what book would #lisp suggest, for around $50" 15:36:40 moah [~user@78-0-139-203.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 15:36:50 Gaap: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ is pretty good 15:36:51 both PCL and LoL are great, toss a coin 15:36:51 <_3b> Gaap: Practical Common Lisp, Land of Lisp, Gentle introduction to symbolic computation 15:36:52 Gaap: Do you know how to program in some way? 15:37:06 Gaap: it is usually written "Lisp" these days. 15:37:20 yes, i program usually. i need it for an exam 15:37:25 mcspiff: Ah, totally different question. Personally, I like Anathem by Neal Stephenson. And, it won't even set you back $50 bucks. 15:37:39 Gaap: Then PCL might be what you are looking for 15:37:44 ty a lot 15:37:46 :) 15:38:08 tmh: actually on my shelf, hasn't been read yet 15:38:18 -!- albk [~user@host86-147-29-157.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:44 I've really enjoyed PAIP 15:38:49 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 15:38:56 I need to remind myself to grab AMOP from the library when i'm at the univ 15:39:05 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 15:39:09 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:39:29 mcspiff: That book is worth the effort. 15:39:29 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:39:45 tmh: I've found it really hard to get into for some reason. Which is odd, because I loved snowcrash, the Baroque cycle 15:40:24 mcspiff: It's a tedious book to read until you pick up on the jargon. That is probably the biggest stumbling point. 15:40:42 tmh: true, seems like he's created a new language 15:41:58 mcspiff: Lisp books I own : PCL, ANSI Common Lisp, PAIP, CLOS(Keene), AMOP, and Object-Oriented Programming edited by Andreas Paepcke. 15:42:15 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 15:42:17 *Xach* wonders why ccl compiles (ldb (byte 32 0) ...) to something so much slower than (logand #xFFFFFFFF ...) 15:43:17 kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.88] has joined #lisp 15:43:17 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.165.88] has quit [Changing host] 15:43:17 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:43:42 Xach: disassemble shows exactly the same code for both 15:43:54 stassats: Hmm, which ccl are you using? Maybe I'm using the wrong one. 15:44:32 *Xach* is using "Version 1.6-r14468M (LinuxX8664)" 15:44:48 I get much different disassembly. 15:44:53 tmh: PAIP would be nice to own, but is it out of print? 15:45:04 mcspiff: I don't think so. 15:45:05 Maybe my additional context makes the difference. 15:45:13 mcspiff: Not out of print. 15:45:16 mcspiff: Don't think so. 15:45:21 Xach: of what type is your argument? 15:46:09 stassats: (logand-or-ldb ... (+ ub32a ub32b)) 15:46:26 mcspiff: I think the limiting factor will be what the store for gift card carries. 15:46:46 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:46:52 Xach: ok, i was comparing on fixnums 15:47:28 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:38 tmh: Good point, but just a general search for 'lisp' on their website turns up all the usual suspects 15:48:02 tmh: here's the search page http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/home/search/?keywords=lisp&pageSize=12 15:48:36 mcspiff: Already there, they're selling it for $108.95, I think that is in Canadian dollars. 15:48:36 *Xach* bought his copy of Lisp in Small Pieces from chapters at a significant discount 15:49:00 that was back in the days before canadian money was worth anything, though. 15:49:16 compiler macro for LDB transforms to LOGAND only if the argument is a fixnum 15:49:24 tmh: Yup, all prices canadian. Is $100 about reasonable? I'm comparing it to other textbooks and that sounds about right 15:49:28 *moah* once had a Lisp in Small Pieces going on ebay for 1 Euro and I missed the auction... 15:49:44 same for a PAIP copy.. 15:50:20 obviously some guy was selling his whole lisp library at once. 15:50:45 Xach: hurry up and write a book so I can buy it 15:50:56 mcspiff: Amazon has it for $44.48 new from a little independent reseller. 15:51:22 mcspiff: Amazon sells it directly for $72.35, These are US dollars. 15:51:37 So, converting, carry the 2, that's like 5 cents. 15:51:38 ruDDerX [~Rudder@ti0121a340-0637.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:51:49 canadian dollar is almost at parity with the us these days. any difference is down to taxes and duty. 15:52:06 tmh: that's a much better deal... 15:52:24 *ZabaQ* suddenly feels an urge to move to Canada 15:52:27 Chapters has it used from $50 but I'm wondering about the quality 15:52:52 mcspiff: It's probably ok. I've always had good luck buying used books. 15:53:00 -!- tty234 [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-ltyjcpjesyvpbchd] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:53:37 *mcspiff* loves online book shopping 15:53:44 I can buy *anything*! 15:54:14 chapters isn't a great source of CS books. 15:54:20 mcspiff: Don't buy the $51.01 used one, it looks rough, go for the $60.47. 15:54:28 I got a copy of AMOP for christmas, but it came from the UofT bookstore. 15:54:41 tmh: Just saw that. Sounds like much better condition 15:55:14 Fade: agreed, but hey its free to me 15:56:43 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.94.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:56:54 tty234 [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-aocejljeyffsbkek] has joined #lisp 15:57:19 I have a giftcard I have to expend there, too. :) 15:57:26 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.121.252] has joined #lisp 15:59:29 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007032.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:59:43 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:19 sellout- [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:34 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:04:54 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:05:03 hmm, changing the (ldb (byte 32 0) ...) in ironclad to (logand #xF... ...) makes ccl compute the sha1sum of a big file 2x faster. 16:05:29 *Xach* wonders who to lobby for updates 16:05:55 *Xach* eyes rme, as froydnj is not around for eying 16:06:25 Xach: you are the Distributor-God of Quicklisp, you can update anything :) 16:06:37 -!- sellout- [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:06:58 *Xach* aggregates, does not mutilate 16:07:26 well, I think we found the tagline for quicklisp. 16:07:45 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:57 cleanse, fold, manipulate. 16:09:18 -!- fogus`away is now known as fogus` 16:09:36 *mcspiff* has a dream. A dream where slime inspector windows auto-refresh... 16:09:45 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:53 *_3b* would be happy to just have more than 1 of them :p 16:10:04 dream big my friend 16:11:02 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 16:11:37 mcspiff: it's actually not so hard to do 16:11:39 -!- azaq23 [~derivecto@p4FF691D7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 16:11:40 azaq23 [~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23] has joined #lisp 16:11:45 stassats: no? 16:11:55 no what? 16:12:04 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:12:15 stassats: have the inspector auto-refresh or update 16:12:27 no 16:12:35 so, why doesn't it? 16:12:37 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-84-175.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 16:12:54 with the change, ccl is only 20x slower than sbcl on sha1 of a file instead of 40x... 16:12:55 *_3b* suspects it would be annoying on large lists/arrays 16:13:13 mcspiff: nobody thought it'd be worthwhile? 16:13:43 stassats: if I was going to implement something like that, would the general idea be? 16:13:49 -!- ruDDerX [~Rudder@ti0121a340-0637.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:14:09 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:14:38 how do i know? 16:14:46 -!- moah [~user@78-0-139-203.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has left #lisp 16:14:51 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 16:15:15 stassats: I assumed if you said "its not hard to do" you had some general sense of how you'd do it 16:15:42 sure, i did it for M-x slime-list-threads 16:16:16 Then I'll start my investigation there 16:19:13 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:21:27 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mznjgqdczcezkqoh] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:22:48 *tmh* is struggling to use vi to edit configuration file on a FreeBSD vm. 16:22:59 tmh: Use CL to do it. 16:23:25 tmh: tramp is your friend? 16:23:26 use tramp 16:23:27 It's so painful, my fingers just want to chord emacs commands despite what my brain tells them. 16:23:28 heh 16:23:39 df_aldur: great minds, etc 16:23:55 Xach: First I have to get a CL implementation installed. 16:24:10 you don't need CL for tramp 16:24:14 you just need sh 16:24:47 you just need to throw away all your possessions 16:25:18 Speaking of which, anyone use quicklisp with freebsd? I have a report that Clozure CL on freebsd just crashes when loading quicklisp, but it's not easy for me to try (gotta make a VM, I guess). 16:25:24 Ah tramp, no, before I used emacs, I lived in vi. Those brain cells are still in there somewhere, I just need to wake them up. 16:25:37 -!- peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has left #lisp 16:26:55 Xach: No guarantees, but maybe I can start helping out with testing. It's funny, the host OS is windows, FreeBSD is in a VM, and the one I'm having problems with is Arch Linux in the VM. Ironic since Linux seems to be the base OS for open lisp implementations. 16:27:56 is there a reason why drakma would throw a parse error at the ? before pageID here -> https://server.net/Default.aspx?commandAction=/secure/control/blotter/getEntities?pageId=634299272751912460 16:27:57 Xach: do you have a code snippet or a pointer to same that shows the (ldb (byte 32 0) ...) (logand #xf... ..) difference? 16:28:20 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 16:28:23 mheld [~mheld@209-6-16-165.c3-0.frm-ubr1.sbo-frm.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:29 rme: sure, just a sec. 16:31:08 Guthur: it has two ?? 16:31:12 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.61.237] has joined #lisp 16:31:59 <_3b> is that actually forbidden somewhere though? 16:32:47 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.105.74] has joined #lisp 16:32:48 rme: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118371 16:33:11 i think the error actually originates in puri:parse-uri-string 16:33:17 2 secs to test 16:33:28 <_3b> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-3.4 says it is OK, so maybe a puri bug? 16:34:21 yeah puri don't like 16:37:06 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:38:07 looks like it doesn't know what to do with the second query token. 16:39:31 <_3b> looks like you can bind puri:*strict-parse* to nil to avoid it 16:40:10 sweet 16:40:14 cheers _3b 16:40:46 though it does just parse it as one long query query token, is that really correct? 16:40:48 <_3b> could probably also encode the second ? 16:40:58 should it not be equivalent of a # 16:41:15 *_3b* would expect it to be 1 query 16:42:06 that'd be my read of 3986, too. 16:42:47 *_3b* also wouldn't expect drakma to care about that part anyway 16:43:02 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:07 ehu: ping 16:43:20 well non-strict parsing will do 16:43:20 rme: make sense? 16:43:39 and yeah one query token does seem to be what it is saying 16:43:42 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:46:17 Xach: Yes, thanks. Looks like the compiler macro on LDB doesn't know the result type of (+ b a). If you help it out with (the (unsigned-byte 33) (+ b a)), it open-codes. 16:46:49 <_3b> ah, looks like puri is a port of franz' net.uri, which implements 2396 rather than 3986 16:46:57 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:35 <_3b> and ? isn't allowed in query in 2396 16:47:51 rme: is it likely to be fixed on the compiler side? 16:48:07 ruDDerX [~Rudder@ti0121a340-0637.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:48:20 does hunchentoot use puri? 16:49:00 oh, you were talking about drakma, sorry 16:50:48 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:17 younder [~john@9.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:51:26 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-96.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:51:45 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:53:47 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-150-94.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:53:57 Xach: I'll make a ticket for it. I could imagine adding more hair to the compiler macro on LDB to recognize cases that like, or maybe gbyers or someone will also have an idea. 16:54:42 well just did a full reinstall 16:55:00 nesv [~nick@LONDON14-1176247333.sdsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:55:03 rme: Thanks. 16:55:19 Thank go for backups 16:55:46 -!- fogus` [c6970d0f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.151.13.15] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:56:25 anything new in LispWille Xach? 16:57:38 communicative and helpful as always then 16:57:55 Xach: I'm not saying I'll do it, but if I added a fast SHA-1 function to CCL, would you use it? 16:58:12 rme: Yes. 16:58:34 rme: I would also use one you added to CLISP. 16:59:22 hazing is a bit passe 16:59:34 rme: although my needs are particular. i need to be able to incrementally update. it's not just a single file or vector, i need to be able to create a digest, add a vector, add the contents of a file, maybe add another vector, before producing the digest. 16:59:55 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 17:00:34 -!- mcspiff [~user@142.68.77.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:37 Pretty standard stuff, but some q&d implementations just let you work on one vector or file or string or whatever. 17:02:38 My recommended read. 'Learning from data' 'Concepts, theory, and methods' by Vladdimir Cherkassky and Philip Muller 17:03:31 -!- talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:34 superior exposition 17:03:41 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:04:24 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:10:51 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757db0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:58 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:51 sm` [~s@77.28.112.143] has joined #lisp 17:14:36 nsswb [~nsswb@87.212.234.21] has joined #lisp 17:15:12 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 17:16:43 -!- Buganini [~buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:18:06 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-160-160-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:19:40 Otherwise I recommend 'Game theory and strategy' by Philip D. Straffin 17:20:01 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-226-230-252.adslplus.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:20:26 -!- nsswb [~nsswb@87.212.234.21] has left #lisp 17:20:32 Everyone should know SOME game theory... 17:21:20 -!- mheld [~mheld@209-6-16-165.c3-0.frm-ubr1.sbo-frm.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: mheld] 17:21:31 Has anyone here read "Land of Lisp" by Conrad Barski, yet? 17:21:57 yes 17:22:12 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.121.252] has quit [Quit: ] 17:22:16 Xach: I just tried loading Quicklisp on 32-bit FreeBSD with ccl, and it seemed to work for me. (Loaded and started hunchentoot.) 17:22:29 Got it on my kindle. 17:22:46 rme: Thanks! 17:22:55 younder: How did you find it? 17:23:06 younder: ...as in, was it a good read? 17:23:19 tfb [~tfb@94.197.102.20.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:23:53 nesv, A bit basic for me, but it was in a good tone. So I liked it. 17:24:24 nesv, perhaps more aimed at a beginner 17:24:53 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:25:20 younder: Ooookay, thank you! I'm not a beginner, per say, but I may just pick it up, all the same. 17:26:45 nesv, you do that. There are worse ways of wasting you time ;) 17:27:26 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: away!] 17:28:13 -!- deek0146 [~alasdair@AAnnecy-256-1-104-134.w90-9.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:28:38 deek0146 [~alasdair@AAnnecy-256-1-34-107.w90-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:29:51 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 17:29:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:30:10 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:30:24 joeygibson1 [~joeygibso@208.52.139.50] has joined #lisp 17:30:31 drdo`` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:30:52 -!- drdo`` is now known as drdo 17:31:16 -!- joeygibson [~joeygibso@208.52.139.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:32:18 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:34 -!- drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:33:41 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@19.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:35:42 -!- ruDDerX [~Rudder@ti0121a340-0637.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:36:26 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-83-229.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:37:31 ruDDerX [~Rudder@ti0121a340-0637.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:37:39 *younder* always loves a new Lisp book 17:38:02 -!- ruDDerX [~Rudder@ti0121a340-0637.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:15 And this one has been a log time coming 17:38:26 long 17:39:38 which? 17:39:43 Anyone else using XChat-GNOME 0.26.1 ? 17:40:19 -!- La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:20 unkanon-work, The land of Lisp 17:40:28 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 17:41:20 sorry not quite used to this IRC client.. 17:41:21 I've been meaning to buy it but right now I'm doing more scheme than CL 17:41:56 rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-173-215.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:35 Well get it all the same.It is fun! 17:44:32 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has left #lisp 17:44:36 dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has joined #lisp 17:44:42 And it readily translates to scheeme. 17:45:39 ruDDerX [~Rudder@ti0121a340-0637.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:46:01 -!- Caffeine [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:22 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:43 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 17:47:14 Why soul d CS be dull and boring? Let in a bit of light! 17:47:22 should 17:48:13 live a little 17:48:47 Get 'The land of lisp' 17:49:29 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-96.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:52:04 -!- tfb [~tfb@94.197.102.20.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: gone] 17:52:11 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-96.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:53:04 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 17:53:09 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci] 17:53:20 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:53:33 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:03 Anybody know an example for how to generate executable x86 code in C? I want to write a compiler for my scheme interpreter... 17:55:54 dostoyevsky: a particularly unhelpful answer would be to refer you to the gcc source code, I guess (: 17:55:55 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:56:20 antifuchs: Ok... But sbcl should do it too, doesn't it? 17:56:29 dostoyevsky: but it's not written in C 17:56:33 it does, but the compiler is written in lisp, not c 17:56:59 movitz's CL compiler is simpler and newer than sbcl's. i found it an interesting read. 17:57:38 -!- rmarianski is now known as rmar|mtng 17:57:39 Xach: How complete is it? I.e. ANSI conformance, CLOS, etc... 17:58:19 redline6561: I don't remember, sorry. 17:59:31 Xach: you read a lot of code. You should write about that for CQ 18:00:02 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 18:00:14 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:00:26 gigamonkey: my contract with the New York Review of Code prohibits it. 18:01:15 hi, I'm doing somethingh like (asdf:operate 'asdf:compile-op :my-program) but it still loads the compiled files, How can I just compile the files without loading them? 18:01:18 dostoyevsky: I've heard a lot of good things about LLVM for doing JIT stuff. I don't know if you mean JIT or generating separate executable files 18:01:49 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #lisp 18:02:24 -!- younder [~john@9.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:02:34 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:37 Since LLVM has been mentioned, I should plug my CL library for it: https://github.com/sellout/CL-LLVM 18:02:41 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:28 sellout: you need a README 18:03:36 Phoodus: I want some interface to scheme for generating machine code... and then I want to do some profiling stuff, e.g. for tracing data-types and then do optimizations in scheme based on these statistics... 18:03:36 what gigamonkey said 18:03:50 but what does a cl-llvm library do? 18:04:06 dostoyevsky: generating & calling it in the same process, or generating executable files? 18:04:18 sohail: It's bindings to the C library, mostly  with some CL niceties. 18:04:43 sellout: ah, I see 18:04:56 Here's a port of the LLVM tutorial to CL: https://github.com/sellout/CL-LLVM/blob/master/tutorial/chapter7.lisp 18:05:03 I'm doing some work with clang/llvm right now, it's pretty not bad ok 18:05:08 But yes, I do need a readme. 18:05:31 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:36 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-dremlndwrjxbmmev] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:06:01 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:06:27 -!- rmar|mtng is now known as rmarianski 18:06:38 sellout: looks pretty thorough, nice job 18:07:05 sellout: so what is the expected use case? 18:07:07 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 18:07:12 dostoyevsky: in all honesty, if you want to do in-process codegen, I'd think about porting your interpreter to a language with a built-in compiler, like lisp or another already compiled scheme 18:07:39 sohail: Implementing programming languages? ;) 18:07:58 sure, you're not manipulating registers and such yourself, but it's a much easier path to native code going to generate higher level code & compiling from that 18:08:13 Phoodus: I want to write a scheme that optimizes a scheme program in scheme while it is running, based on profiling data that has been collected... 18:08:19 Implementing programming languages is a lot of fun 18:08:28 I still want to try my hand at some embeddable thing in C++ again 18:08:42 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:08:44 But I am not sure whether it will work as I imagine... 18:08:50 dostoyevsky: what sort of optimization techniques will it use? 18:08:54 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:08 do you envision things like register allocations & tagged vs untagged memory usage? 18:09:23 What's tagged vs. untagged memory usage? 18:09:25 younder [~john@9.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:09:29 Phoodus: If you know eg that one function is often used with integers: specialize the functions for it! 18:09:58 = is better for integers 18:10:10 <_3b> dostoyevsky: sounds like the tracing JIT popular with JS lately 18:10:14 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 18:10:24 sellout: 18:10:36 then you're probably not looking at generating machine code, but mutating existing source code to rip out potential variations? 18:10:36 I think it goes back to this Lisp book whose name I forgot... 18:10:37 err, sellout: I figured :D 18:10:41 always choose the most specific 18:11:12 Writing a high performance lisp machine... Was that the name of the book? 18:11:13 good for efficiency 18:11:26 qfr: if a function "owns" certain pieces of data in RAM, it shouldn't have to bother with tag bits. Things like that 18:11:43 And on the JVM they called it HotSpot... 18:11:50 I don't even know what tag bits are 18:12:01 Btw is there some small Lisp which is easy to embed? 18:12:10 qfr: a few bits allocated from each word to identify what type a memory location is 18:12:12 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C663.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:18 qfr: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3238871095242925@naggum.no.html has a bit of info about one scheme 18:12:22 Ohh like in many Lisp implementations? 18:12:24 pointer vs fixnum vs character or whatever 18:12:25 yes 18:12:34 I think V8 started using that too 18:13:01 tag bits are left on objects (like integers) by the compiler so it knows what they are 18:13:02 V8 wants to add hotspot-like functionality... 18:13:26 So is there some light weight Lisp implementation I could embed in a C++ process? 18:13:30 ftp://ftp.cs.arizona.edu/reports/1993/TR93-27.ps is a decent overview of this data representation stuff 18:13:33 I need some embedded scripting stuff 18:13:42 qfr: ecl 18:13:52 for instance a integer has 2 of 3 (depending on the compiler) tag bits 18:14:05 qfr: also, libguile 18:14:39 and thus 2^29 or 2^30 bits available in 32 bit mode 18:15:00 sohail: Yeah  but I'm not sure what you're asking more specifically, I guess. 18:15:09 *qfr* examines ecl 18:15:43 It's a full CL implementation? That sounds heavy 18:16:07 CL is rather fast 18:16:07 I was hoping for something which starts up in < 50 ms and has a memory foot print of below 8 MiB 18:16:21 twice as fast as Java 18:16:28 sohail: I'm using it for a language I'm playing with, and I think it's also being used by Clutter now. 18:16:31 Phoodus: If I know that e.g. a function is called often with integers as parameters I could generate machine code that works very efficiently with integers... I couldn't do it for the whole program because that might use up too much memory.. But I could do it for like 10% of the most used code or so... And unlike on the JVM I actually want to store the profiling data, so that the start up times are fast once the data has been collected... 18:16:41 I was primarily concerneda bout startup time and memory footprint 18:16:43 *about 18:16:54 I was considering using it for an IRC client 18:17:05 32 Mb will boot any lisp system 18:17:05 That stuff needs to start up really fast or people will hate me 18:17:25 qfr: Make it so awesome that people won't care. 18:17:25 no worries 18:17:32 Xach nah 18:18:08 qfr: some info about sbcl's tagging scheme: http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/tag%20bit 18:18:10 Xach: That's emacs! :) 18:18:26 qfr: So... make it suck, but at least boot fast so people will be able to *quickly* figure out they don't like it? 18:18:27 Lisp is fast enough. I can almost guarantee it. 18:18:31 emacs sucks on Windows :( 18:18:32 dostoyevsky: it doesn't seem to me that you'd have to generate machine code to accomplish that 18:18:46 I had to downgrade to emacs 22 to make it semi usable 18:18:49 On Windows 18:18:52 qfr: why would you use that? 18:18:55 (windows) 18:19:02 qfr: people are getting used to app startup taking 10 seconds or more on their windows mobile phones, so you won't need to worry much about a 30MB app in the near future (-: 18:19:03 drdo: Gaming/recording music 18:19:09 qfr: emacs is cool even on Windoze 18:19:24 antifuchs: 10sec, really? 18:19:46 Starting up X-Chat or mIRC on Windows takes 8-12 seconds for me lol it's pretty ridiculous 18:19:52 No idea why they are that slow 18:19:57 I don't have one of those phones, i just use my phone to call people 18:20:07 qfr: use ERC 18:20:29 But of corcse way cooler under Linux. 18:20:36 drdo: according to some, the facebook app takes about 12s to start 18:20:41 Yeah on Linux it's awesome 18:20:43 and another 5s to load new stuff 18:20:56 I've never used ERC but I'm not a friend of irssi etc 18:21:06 sellout: 18:21:11 I am very attached to some X-Chat features by now 18:21:12 why would you develop another language? :D 18:21:13 Building ECL 18:21:21 sorry, I don't know why I keep doing sellout in its own line 18:21:24 sohail: Why not? It's fun and you can show it off on IRC. 18:21:28 antifuchs: I would be pretty unhappy if i had bought a phone and it was like that 18:21:55 line 1: etags: command not found 18:21:55 make[1]: [TAGS] Error 127 (ignored) 18:22:06 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:06 *qfr* scratches head 18:22:12 sohail: Good question! 18:22:22 qfr: What's your problem with ERC? 18:22:25 qfr: You are better off with SBCL 18:22:37 younder it's just a test, I just wanted to see the memory foot print 18:22:45 SBCL and CCL are both quite huge 18:22:54 I tried out lispworks yesterday but you can't do anything with the personal edition Not sure why they don't just have a timed trial of the professional 18:23:02 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:23:08 They do, it's called personal version :P 18:23:12 qfr: That they are, you want CLisp 18:23:26 younder for embedding Lisp? 18:23:35 drdo I don't know it, I haven't checked it out yet 18:23:36 sohail: If you ask for one, you'll get one. 18:23:39 the personal version doesn't do anything interesting 18:23:47 Xach: good to know, thanks 18:23:49 qfr: OK, not ideal, but yes 18:23:57 qfr: It's pretty nice, and you don't have to leave emacs 18:24:03 irssi rocks 18:24:21 erc beats irssi any day of the week 18:24:50 irssi has no multi line editing, LINELEN wrapping or clickable channels or permanent user + host display, right? 18:25:17 I think I have the last one 18:25:54 qfr: clickable channels, really? 18:26:00 nope 18:26:01 that's pretty damn useless 18:26:05 yep 18:26:09 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:26:15 drdo: Yeah I absolutely need that 18:26:32 drdo: I would be unhappy too. which is why I'm not touching winmob (: 18:26:36 qfr: That doesn't make any sense, it's much faster switching with some completion/filtering system 18:26:58 and easier, you don't have to move your hands 18:27:12 amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:13 -!- twem2 [~user@87-194-53-22.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:14 unless you also "type" text by clicking on an on-screen keyboard 18:27:21 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 18:27:22 I use my box with only one hand most of the time while I'm doing random crap with my other hand 18:27:25 I just configure my channels and everything onf the .irssi/config file and it connects, open new windows, organize the windows to I can remember where to find what 18:27:29 Eating, fondling my face, jerking off etc 18:27:40 Playing with my hair 18:27:42 Friends, let us speak of Lisp. 18:27:53 well gamers use a differet language for embedded scripting. 18:27:54 Toy Lisps need not apply. 18:28:01 I'm in 40+ channels, that would be a pain to manage that way 18:28:10 irssi is cool coz I can connect to a remote server and still use irc 18:28:25 Huh 18:28:30 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-84-175.smrw.lodz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:34 from brasil 18:28:36 Maybe you can discuss IRC clients privately. 18:28:47 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:50 anyway, screen oriented applications are good when you need to use remote servers 18:28:56 On topic discussions are so 1990 18:28:58 Is that acceptable? 18:29:08 qfr 18:29:26 well gamers use a differet language for embedded scripting. 18:29:28 What do you mean? 18:29:38 Most gamers can't code at all 18:29:54 They're computer illiterates 18:30:11 Game programmers 18:30:17 Oh. 18:30:33 killerboy [~mateusz@smrw-91-193-87-5.smrw.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 18:30:35 Looks like ecl installs libs only? No repl? :[ 18:30:55 qfr: ecl has a repl. 18:31:00 Hmm 18:31:04 only if it hates you 18:31:16 should have an ecl command 18:31:27 -bash: ecl: command not found 18:31:34 rpx__ [~rpx@138-180-109-153-rev.idiap.ch] has joined #lisp 18:31:38 PATH? 18:31:41 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:31:42 /usr/local/bin/ecl is just not in the path 18:31:52 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:20 Not bad, 6.3 MiB 18:32:26 That's considerably smaller than SBCL and CCL 18:32:29 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:32:32 Might be worth a try 18:32:55 Hi, I am using drakma:http-request. Is there a way to get ride of "strange" chararcters? 18:32:58 pnq [~nick@ACA2C3AE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:01 Sounds useful if you are trying to run lisp on your toaster :P 18:33:08 rpx__: what is a strange character? 18:33:13 unicode? 18:33:14 rpx__: What are strange... what he said 18:33:27 ØÆÅ? 18:33:38 SBCL 36 MiB 18:33:48 that is, how do you get it? what are you expecting to happen? 18:33:49 so it is written, e.g. "We are living\227 in a country" 18:34:08 So there are \224 and so on 18:34:26 rpx__: weird. what is the encoding of that page? 18:34:26 rpx__: If you use your own routine to print strings, you can do that. 18:34:27 When you build an executable using SBCL, are there options for dropping parts of the system? 18:34:42 *tmh* is trying to find that section in the SBCL manual. 18:34:50 tmh: no 18:35:05 Well, I just want to pass it through the parser, and it crashes,, so I just want to "get ride of them" :) 18:35:13 tmh: there is a prototype tree shaker that works (fsvo"works") with some ancient verison of sbcl, but it never made it in 18:35:21 rpx__: What characters does the parser accept? 18:35:37 pmurias [~pawel@89-78-165-237.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 18:35:39 rpx__: heh. you could use remove-if-not #'parseable-character-p on the resulting string (: 18:35:44 antifuchs: Okay. I was going to say that just looking at the size of the SBCL executable was not a good indication of the size of the executable. 18:35:48 Well I want to do something like this (chtml:parse str (cxml-stp:make-builder)))) 18:35:48 does sbcl have better error messages then clisp? 18:35:58 rpx__: you can write a function called acceptable-to-parser-p and use (remove-if-not #'acceptable-to-parser-p string) 18:36:07 *Size of the application executable* for clarification. 18:36:18 pmurias: in some instances, it does. some come with references to the clhs section that mandates the error, even 18:37:03 antifuchs, Xach: ah, I will try something like that. There is not a way to do it with drakma 18:37:25 rpx__: drakma will return exactly what the server sent it 18:37:31 rpx__: What error do you get from the parser? 18:37:38 handling the sequence is the application's job (; 18:37:43 Well the problem is that it "crashes" 18:37:53 So I think it seg-faults in the external lib 18:37:53 I never had any problem with drakma, always worked well 18:38:00 i get a *** - SYSTEM::STORE: "&foo" does not fit into "foo", bad type from clisp 18:38:20 Well I am worried that my whole system is a big off,, 18:38:21 rpx__: I wonder if that's a clisp bug. 18:38:30 rpx__: Do you have the same trouble in a different implementation? 18:38:30 Xach: I am using sbcl 18:38:39 Oh, sorry. Got my messages crossed up. 18:38:51 where "&foo" and "foo" are supposed to be strings 18:38:55 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:02 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:39:03 but i don't know how to check that 18:39:09 pmurias: What does the code look like? 18:39:27 antifuchs, Xach: Well I will try around a bit. Thanks for the help. Happy new year by the way :) 18:39:50 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:39:56 -!- rpx__ [~rpx@138-180-109-153-rev.idiap.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:42:26 Xach: i found the bug i was concating a lisp and string 18:43:29 but can you show the code? 18:43:54 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 18:44:18 -!- younder [~john@9.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:19 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:13 stassats: http://pastebin.com/FgELX7ti, but i found the bug (didn't fix it yet) 18:47:58 pmurias: Hmm, I get "Unknown paste id" at that URL. 18:51:18 pmurias: paste.lisp.org is so much nicer! 18:51:23 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:51:57 Xach: i use a command line client which chooses a paste at semirandom 18:52:17 Xach: https://github.com/sorear/niecza/blob/master/cl-backend/backend.lisp the thing i'm working on 18:53:03 rpx__ [~rpx@138-180-109-153-rev.idiap.ch] has joined #lisp 18:53:04 That is a very interesting style. 18:53:32 <_3b> first-string-to-symbol makes my brain hurt 18:53:47 <_3b> recursively calling itself in a mapcar? 18:53:55 Hi again, which common-lisp do you use with emacs (slime) ? Is clisp better than sbcl? 18:53:55 *sellout* wonders if Xach is on Valium today. 18:54:32 sbcl 18:54:33 rpx__: sbcl is the best. 18:54:46 Xach: do you like sbcl or lispworks? 18:54:48 sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-68-41.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has joined #lisp 18:54:50 Xach: Alright, then I will stick with it 18:54:52 well, they are all the best, but some are bester than others. 18:55:05 like animal farm! 18:55:07 (and thing (listp thing)), i think you want consp 18:55:12 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:55:39 srryyyy, http://pastie.org/1434786 18:56:11 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:18 i get an error with ccl and gsll there, and don't know where the problem is as sbcl and cmucl get fine with it.... 18:56:32 rpx__: clisp is particularly bad with slime 18:56:51 is it ccl itself, or some error in the lib of gsll ? 18:57:04 stassats: ah, then I will stay away from it. I was just considering it because it might have better unicode support 18:57:25 -!- nesv [~nick@LONDON14-1176247333.sdsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 18:58:22 rpx__: What page is giving you trouble? 18:59:26 Xach: Well I am trying to "interact" with scholar.google.com 18:59:30 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:56 Xach: What is really annoying is that it worked before today,, and now it just "crashes" without error message 19:00:03 rpx__: how does it crash? 19:00:04 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:00:25 process completely dies? 19:01:17 drdo: thanks 19:01:54 Xach: Well, you know when slime just get "disconnected" 19:02:02 rpx__: O, the anguish. 19:02:10 wait is it just flipping up on the gref* method name ? which contains a * there ? 19:02:11 Xach: I think it is because there is an error in a external lib, right 19:02:11 rpx__: Does it show anything in *inferior-lisp*? 19:02:42 Xach: well, as a noob I just restart slime haha 19:03:34 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:34 -!- unkanon-work is now known as rien 19:03:42 <_3b> homie: * is in lots of symbols, that shouldn't break anything 19:03:57 rpx__: Well, can you make it crash and then check *inferior-lisp*? 19:05:03 jup, you're right...i just can't see where the error stems from.... 19:05:40 Xach: maybe you can try this http://pastie.org/1434817 19:05:54 homie: (SINGLE-FLOAT VALUE) is clearly a wrong type specifier 19:06:12 it doesn't complain about *, it wants either * or a single-float 19:06:15 Xach: It can produce the "str" but not the "document" 19:06:19 like (single-float *) or (single-float 10.5) 19:07:08 rpx__: so, you think it's related to unicode? 19:07:18 hmmmm 19:07:33 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:07:42 stassats: well I get the page correctly, but I cannot parse it with cxml:parse 19:07:52 stassats: so I am just guessing 19:08:07 milkpost [~milkpost@cb9-67-84.cloudburst9.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:20 rpx__: in any case, is your slime configured for unicode? 19:08:37 rpx__: works fine for me. 19:08:50 i.e. is slime-net-coding-system set to 'utf-8-unix? 19:09:05 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:09:05 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 19:09:10 and is sbcl started with utf-8 default external format? 19:09:12 lichtblau: the patch at http://codepad.org/85mvV04e seems to end in the middle of a line. any hints where I could find a complete set? 19:09:39 stassats: Well I do not really know :( Is there a way to check? 19:09:52 M-: slime-net-coding-system 19:10:08 sb-impl::*default-external-format* 19:10:10 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-206-205.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:10:12 Xach: if you try (gandalf::show-google-scholar-hits "face") -- that works fine for you? 19:10:13 _3b: re recurssion in mapcar any buitin way to walk the sexpression tree? 19:10:23 antifuchs: let's ask sohail. Stripping the whitespace changes should make it rather short anyway. 19:10:37 I didn't do it 19:10:52 cmm [~cmm@109.67.206.205] has joined #lisp 19:11:06 oh, the patch 19:11:08 <_3b> pmurias: tree as opposed to list? 19:11:12 yeah, that (: 19:11:21 stassats: where do I set/put slime-net-coding-system ? 19:11:30 .emacs 19:11:36 rpx__: works fine. 19:11:43 antifuchs: which part ends in the middle of a line? 19:11:43 stassats: good call 19:11:58 sohail: patch complains at line 331. 19:11:59 Xach: Thank for testing :) 19:12:00 by the way, I think the last part of the diff should be removed. You have to make that change manually from what I remember 19:12:06 ah. 19:12:11 ah, good 19:12:18 just remove the diff for qt_includes.h 19:12:23 I think you have to do that one manually for some reason 19:12:28 huh 19:12:42 I'm seeing no NL at the end of line 332. that might be it. 19:12:49 string replace QCoreXmlStreamReader to QXmlStreamReader in the generated code 19:12:55 it might be a Qt 4.7 thing (that's the one I use) 19:13:11 _3b: to walk the list 19:13:36 hm, it's building now. let's see if this will work 19:13:39 <_3b> pmurias: isn't that what mapcar does? 19:14:37 antifuchs: you're trying on mac? 19:14:41 well, duh I guess 19:14:48 stassats: YOU ARE A GENIOUS ! 19:14:48 sohail: yeah ((: 19:14:55 pmurias: You should punch whoever taught you how to format Lisp. 19:15:15 *_3b* was about to comment on that formatting too :p 19:15:21 ok, fails dlopening libgenerator_smoke.dylib. but it started building. we can initiate the shipping process (; 19:15:36 stassats, Xach antifuchs: Thanks alot,, you have saved my week !! 19:15:43 <_3b> all those poor lonely parens, left out in the cold by themselves 19:15:54 rpx__: excellent (-: 19:16:04 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:16:23 antifuchs: let me know if you have any more problems 19:17:06 oh, you will actually There is a bunch of stuff that won't compile or link because it should not have been generated in the first place. You're gonna have to manually fudge it 19:17:10 Damn, you guys are the greatest ! If there is a alien attack and we can only save a couple of hundred people, everyone in the #lisp channel is going in the "security-bunker" 19:17:15 sohail: well, apart from the smoke build process being unable to find its own build products (or building it in time), it looks fine (; 19:17:19 haha 19:17:20 ok 19:17:33 it's not much, probably editing 6-7 files in total 19:17:45 cool - I'll take a look at it later 19:17:55 and then maybe we'll have a homebrew formula for smoke installation on the mac 19:18:18 rpx__: no way. we would thank them for their secret technology. 19:18:31 Xach: touchee 19:18:36 if only there was a formal way to fork kdebindings so we could make it work and maintain the patches in one place 19:18:37 haha 19:18:44 the scene would be something like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/xach/5309727656/ 19:19:16 Xach: lol 19:19:48 sohail: hah, somebody needs to write a distributed version control system, I guess (-; 19:19:53 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@cb9-67-84.cloudburst9.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:19:56 By the way, what is the general feeling about "land of lisp", I must say that I like it alot, very nice complement to "Practical Common Lisp" I think 19:20:06 antifuchs: crazy talk 19:20:08 (I am still hoping for more postcards, inquire via /msg) 19:20:19 Xach: I'm guessing mine didn't arrive yet? 19:20:28 antifuchs: it did, thanks 19:20:34 ah, great (-: 19:20:52 Xach: where's the picture of antifuchs's card? 19:20:59 Xach: do you have any from russia yet? 19:21:03 And how many have you received so far? 19:21:21 those aren't /msgs! 19:21:28 haha 19:22:02 antifuchs: https://github.com/theirishpenguin/qtonrails#readme 19:22:23 rails looks so painful 19:23:04 it's just a config management thing 19:23:55 in practice, it's pretty nice (especially in a multi-person team), but it comes with lots of startup overhead... nasty if you have to re-start your image to run tests 19:25:33 I tried to use Rails but I didn't really get it, I ended up writing my own framework for webdev in Ruby on top of rack 19:26:49 milkpost [~milkpost@cb9-67-84.cloudburst9.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:55 qfr: Did the same... 19:27:01 Heh 19:27:23 I was already done pretty much but I'm going to rewrite all of it in Haskell now, it's probably going to take 3+ months 19:28:35 -!- rpx__ [~rpx@138-180-109-153-rev.idiap.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:30:53 Using Ruby for larger projects was a pretty terrible idea 19:31:12 So many stupid errors which would be detected in a statically typed language 19:31:14 Maybe you can embed it in your irc client. 19:31:18 And start your own channel. 19:31:42 qfr: :| 19:31:53 Quadrescence: At which part? 19:32:05 the haskell part but i am just biased and mean 19:33:12 Xach: I'm told embedding the standard Ruby implementation is pretty tough. I've embedded CPython into Diablo II once, that was about it. That's also when I realised that the interpreter was fairly badly designed, heh. 19:33:17 Quadrescence: Oh, I see 19:33:31 the CPython interpreter is horrible 19:33:32 You would have me use CL over Haskell? 19:33:53 It would be on-topic then. 19:34:09 idk whatever common lisp is so lispy it is hard not to use 19:34:15 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.48.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:34:53 (except for that LOOP thing, i mean what's the deal) 19:34:58 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-2-234.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 19:35:21 sohail: That looks so bizarre. They want to generate Qt GUIs... using a web development framework? 19:36:11 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.63.230] has joined #lisp 19:36:21 -!- ziga` [~user@stargate.fs.uni-lj.si] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:36:32 Is this an attempt at uh "rich internet application" stuff which can be deployed both in a browser and as a regular desktop application? 19:36:42 Like Adobe AIR and such? 19:37:06 qfr: no, it's a code organization framework 19:37:12 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-173-215.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 19:37:50 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.57.22.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:39:44 -!- Gaap [~Geep@95.233.41.139] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 19:43:03 rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-219-63.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:55 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-47-61.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:45:01 valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-125-82.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:45:49 mheld [~mheld@209-6-16-165.c3-0.frm-ubr1.sbo-frm.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:16 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-96.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:46:19 wanderingelf [~user@c-24-131-74-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:47:56 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:48:25 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-96.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:48:36 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:49:31 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #lisp 19:49:31 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:50:46 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.244.143.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:51:43 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:49 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:52:21 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.22.60] has joined #lisp 19:54:01 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:14 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 19:55:02 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-5-94.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:24 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.126.185] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:59:26 -!- wanderingelf [~user@c-24-131-74-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:00:09 -!- ruDDerX [~Rudder@ti0121a340-0637.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:01:03 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:08:24 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:15:53 robwolfe [~rw@ip-79-175-248-34.cable.smsnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:16:41 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #lisp 20:17:04 Ping 20:17:40 tmh: pong? 20:17:58 Just checking that my client was still connected. 20:21:04 -!- mheld [~mheld@209-6-16-165.c3-0.frm-ubr1.sbo-frm.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: mheld] 20:21:25 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:22:49 qfr: Diablo 2 uses python? 20:24:20 pmurias no 20:24:35 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:25:36 pmurias: https://github.com/epicvrvs/syringe/blob/master/syringe/syringe.cpp https://github.com/epicvrvs/craw_module/blob/master/craw/hot_patches.cpp 20:25:39 Along those lines 20:26:07 Diablo II has no programmable interface by default so I added one 20:26:13 Xach: is there an automatic lisp formater? 20:26:28 pmurias: emacs is one of the most convenient and interactive. 20:26:41 Yes 20:28:01 Xach: something non interactive and not emacs? 20:28:23 pmurias: pprint, sort of. 20:29:02 pmurias: If you don't use emacs, it's good to read a lot of Lisp source code and manually copy the style. 20:29:15 pmurias: When in doubt, find a prior example somewhere. 20:29:36 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-219-63.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 20:29:39 were can i find pprint? 20:29:50 in your repl 20:30:28 it works on sexpressions? 20:30:55 supposedly 20:31:02 pmurias: I don't think pprint is going to help you much. If you object to emacs, you should reformat things manually. 20:31:30 pmurias: Don't put close-parens on their own line, use conventional levels of indentation for all forms, etc. 20:31:42 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 20:31:46 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-125-82.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:32:00 emacs can automically reformat existing code? 20:32:10 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:14 pmurias: Yes. 20:32:50 does the lisp mode work together with viper? 20:33:31 I don't know. 20:34:27 switching to a totally different editor just to write a single program doesn't seem much fun 20:34:45 pmurias: Reading code that's formatted terribly also isn't fun. 20:35:15 pmurias: You don't have much code there. You can just delete it and write it again properly with your favorite editor if you want other people not to complain about its formatting. 20:36:27 pmurias are you using vim atm? 20:36:31 yes 20:36:33 https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52?&noredirect has some good advice in general. 20:37:58 Xach: how can i reformat the code from emacs? 20:38:26 Go to the beginning of the function and hit C-M-q, for example 20:38:39 You can also select some code and then do M-x indent-region 20:38:47 (I have that bound to a key actually) 20:39:01 selecting the whole file and M-X indent-region would do the job? 20:39:07 Yep 20:39:19 pmurias I wrote some code which can do that for entire directories 20:39:22 within emacs 20:39:34 https://github.com/epicvrvs/emacs-config hmm 20:39:46 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:46 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 20:39:59 https://github.com/epicvrvs/emacs-config/blob/master/configuration/keys.el F3 fixes the indentation in the entire file 20:40:02 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 20:40:07 Defined here: https://github.com/epicvrvs/emacs-config/blob/master/configuration/key-functions.el 20:40:27 You can just do 20:40:32 C-: 20:40:34 (indent-region (point-min) (point-max)) 20:40:44 Uhm you paste that with C-y 20:41:05 you can just do C-x h C-M-\ 20:41:13 Oh yeah 20:41:20 C-M-\ is bound to indent-region 20:41:25 And C-x h selects everything 20:42:28 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 20:42:35 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:45:00 valium97582 [~daniel@187.74.37.244] has joined #lisp 20:46:17 i should checkout slime from cvs? 20:46:42 Sounds good 20:46:46 pmurias: quicklisp also works. 20:46:54 pmurias: (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper") specifically 20:46:55 That sounds better ^ 20:47:53 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 20:51:28 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:52:21 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:28 -!- robwolfe [~rw@ip-79-175-248-34.cable.smsnet.pl] has left #lisp 20:52:53 bsod1 [~osa1@85.100.78.230] has joined #lisp 20:53:50 francogrex [~user@109.130.49.131] has joined #lisp 20:54:02 mheld [~mheld@209-6-16-165.c3-0.frm-ubr1.sbo-frm.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:05 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 20:54:20 -!- gz [Clozure@clozure-CDE684CB.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: gz] 20:54:34 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:55:54 *pmurias* gives up on emacs once again 20:55:59 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@85.100.78.230] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:19 bsod1 [~osa1@85.100.78.230] has joined #lisp 20:58:19 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:58:25 pmurias: A 9 minutes? 20:58:35 s/A/After/ 20:58:59 after years of prejudice 20:59:29 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:59:39 younder [~john@9.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:59:46 pmurias: whay you give up on emacs what was expected that emacs didn't do for you? 21:00:03 Let us not discuss it any more. 21:01:06 Xach: What color are your robes? 21:01:12 -!- nilly [~nil@c-98-247-253-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:01:27 white, with black lambdas and parentheses. 21:01:37 -!- tmh [63972a2a@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 21:01:43 tmh [63972a2a@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 21:01:48 Woops 21:02:30 what world am I on. There seem to be such a large amount of pink elefants 21:02:40 -!- joeygibson1 [~joeygibso@208.52.139.50] has left #lisp 21:03:09 quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:01 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:01 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:04:01 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:05:01 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:07:24 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:09:15 astoon [~astoon@92.243.187.229] has joined #lisp 21:10:54 younder: don't forget *why* they are pink 21:23:02 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:23:29 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@67-194-68-41.wireless.umnet.umich.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:25:33 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.105.74] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:25:45 nickik [~nick@adsl-62-167-134-173.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:26:15 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 21:26:34 -!- pmurias [~pawel@89-78-165-237.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:32:00 benny [~benny@i577A2B25.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:32:40 -!- zbigniew [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:32:40 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:33:00 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.30.238] has joined #lisp 21:33:04 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 21:38:01 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:38:44 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 21:39:11 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has left #lisp 21:40:16 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 21:43:01 zbigniew [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:15 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 21:46:36 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:59 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:57 vokoda [~user@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 21:51:51 is (eval-when (:execute) ... only useful in any setting? 21:52:21 it's not useful at all 21:52:22 Not really 21:52:50 I'll show a bit of code pasted 21:52:51 eval-when (:compile ) is what you usually want 21:52:52 francogrex: it'll only work if you load .lisp file, but not not .fasl 21:53:01 ok 21:53:05 maybe if you want people to paste your code to a REPL, and not have it run when they paste it in a file that gets compiled 21:53:10 not listening to younder is what you usually want 21:53:29 just a sec i'll paste 21:53:35 except when he is right.. 21:54:12 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:54:12 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-96.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:15 mathiasx [~mathiasx@CPE-70-92-250-150.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:41 one should always use (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute)). in slime: (eval-when C-c C-s 21:55:56 ok at least I know the :execute bit is wrong, http://paste.lisp.org/display/118381 21:56:57 stassats: when I use :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel in addition, the compiler refuses to compile saying: The form (PROGN (IN-PACKAGE :ITERATE) (DEFUN MYRAND (X) (PRINT (ITER (REPEAT X) (COLLECT (RANDOM 1.0)))))) was not evaluated successfully. 21:57:17 francogrex: read time! 21:57:41 compile and load make sense is SBCL execute makes no since as code is ALWAYS compiled. So it is for compatibility only. 21:57:41 pjb: reading the manual 21:57:45 You cannot put the in-package in the same form that use the symbol used! 21:58:12 hmm 21:58:14 -!- astoon [~astoon@92.243.187.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:58:15 francogrex: not manual, reader read-time 21:58:35 What pjb said. The entire form must be read before its execution begins... 21:58:49 ok got that 21:59:39 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.217] has joined #lisp 22:00:07 and it's easy to fix: (defun myrand (x) (print (loop repeat x collect (random 1.0)))) 22:02:28 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-88.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:38 stassats: ehh ok, but wanted as a test case to use an external package like iterate 22:02:47 (defun AinRand (loop repeat collect 1 (capeltalist (rand 1.0))) 22:03:04 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:04:04 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.22.60] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:04:13 francogrex: in-package is not the way to do it 22:04:43 amb007 [~a_bakic@249.17.97-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:11 you either fully qualify the symbols, or use the package 22:05:49 such as iterate:iter ..etc 22:06:02 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:06:11 -!- mathiasx [~mathiasx@CPE-70-92-250-150.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 22:06:21 maybe iterate has a nickname 22:06:30 it does: iter. 22:06:55 A 3 letter savings, woot! 22:06:57 the documentation recommends you use that instead of ITERATE, as ITER is the name of the implementation of the ITERATE spec (: 22:06:58 but can't use the package because it conflicts with cl iterate 22:07:37 i must resolve the conflict 22:07:45 That looks like a case of symbol pollution. 22:08:17 Then resolve it, choose to use the iterate symbol from the iterate package. 22:08:37 whatever pascal uses :sym in from of all symbols. 22:08:54 Most others don't bother, 22:09:38 kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:41 francogrex: It conflicts with cl iterate?... what? There's no ITERATE symbol in the CL package... 22:10:20 Hexstream: It may have been interned as a side-effect. 22:10:21 nop,iterate is a seperate module nat part of CL 22:10:42 Then: (unintern "ITERATE" '#:cl) 22:10:49 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:55 Uh, did I get that right o_o 22:11:19 (unintern 'iterate '#:cl) 22:11:25 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:11:39 nop 22:12:44 tmh yes indeed as a side effect of the function myrand introduced it 22:13:23 *francogrex* wonders though if I exchange the order of the files in :lisp-files '("mycode.o" "c:/emacs/zscripts/iterate/package.o" "c:/emacs/zscripts/iterate/iterate.o") might solve it 22:14:28 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757db0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:39 kanen [~kanen@64.134.223.72] has joined #lisp 22:15:00 Hexstream: (unintern (find-symbol (string :iterate) :cl) :cl) 22:15:11 though, it'll try to unintern NIL 22:15:58 ok exchanging order didn't help: "... because ITERATE:COLLECT and COLLECT will cause a name conflict... " will need to unintern then 22:17:02 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:04 stassats: CL is :used in most packages so this is needlessly complex. And it seemed like this was a one-off conflict so I provided a one-off solution. Damn you and your premature generality! 22:17:29 stassats: yes it won't let you because it does try to unintern nil 22:18:08 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:18:35 *sykopomp* is amused that Allegro survives uninterning both T and NIL from :cl. 22:19:05 answer to the exercise for the reader: (when (nth-value 1 (find-symbol (string :iterate) :cl)) (unintern (find-symbol (string :iterate) :cl) :cl)) 22:21:05 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:21:15 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:36 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.217] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 22:22:38 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:22:42 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:22:52 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.217] has joined #lisp 22:23:51 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Client Quit] 22:24:33 *francogrex* would expect uninterning nil to cause less of a survival crisis than uninterning t 22:25:03 *gigamonkey* would expect any code that had already been read would be unaffected by uninterning anything. 22:26:52 -!- deek0146 [~alasdair@AAnnecy-256-1-34-107.w90-10.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:26:54 you're right 22:27:06 how can I avoid it being read 22:30:12 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:22 Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:30:38 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 22:30:59 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-137-96.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:33:35 ok I had to load iterate system into lisp before being able to compile the mycode.lisp file... well 22:33:56 kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:47 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:34:47 francogrex: Of course... you can't directly refer to symbols of a package that doesn't even exist yet. 22:36:30 Hexstream: yes now I realize, thoufgh was expecting the eval-when... would "shield" it while it is being compiled 22:37:00 No, the eval-when is a form too, which must be read before it can be "understood"... 22:37:53 Reading a form and inspecting it in any way are two completely separate phases. 22:38:11 yeah, taht what pjb and stassats were telling above, 22:40:23 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:41:27 so in fine, I had to do this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118381#1 which isn't particularly beautiful... 22:42:11 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:42:30 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: time to make like a tree and split] 22:42:47 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42:57 After (defvar x (make-array 10 :element-type 'integer)), shouldn't (setf (aref x 1) "foo") raise an error? 22:43:00 -!- tty234 [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-aocejljeyffsbkek] has left #lisp 22:43:29 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:43:34 no 22:43:56 Then what is the element-type used for? 22:44:14 aidalgol: It's a suggestion. 22:44:22 oh. 22:44:23 It's a hint for the compiler. 22:44:33 aidalgol: Whether or not it does anything is implementation dependent. 22:44:34 OK, thanks! 22:44:39 it's not a suggestion, it's used for creating specialized arrays 22:44:44 (upgraded-array-element-type 'integer) => T 22:44:50 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 22:44:56 aidalgol: Look up upgraded-array-element-type 22:45:55 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Quit: sellout] 22:46:20 aidalgol: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/3b203892834b198c# 22:46:24 n2linux [~n2linux@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:35 -!- n2linux [~n2linux@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:47 n2linux [~n2linux@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:12 -!- n2linux [~n2linux@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:50 n2linux [~n2linux@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:51 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:43 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:06 stassats`: suggest - to mention or introduce for consideration or possible action. When I specify the element type of an array, I'd like to get a specialized array, but the implementation doesn't have to. 22:51:21 it's not like other type hints, if you there's an upgraded type, then it'll use it 22:51:25 s/you// 22:53:21 krunkosaurus_ [~krunkosau@173-13-142-170-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:33 hi all, can someone help me with a lisp error related to emacs? 22:53:34 https://gist.github.com/768764 22:53:51 if I'm at the slime repl and I load a package, sure I can do symbol completion and call describe, but is there a way to automatically find some overview documentation for that package? 22:54:21 spacebat: M-. on the package name is one thing to try. but people don't always use defpackage's docstring. 22:54:32 krunkosaurus_: try #emacs channel 22:54:33 krunkosaurus_: try #emacs for emacs help. 22:54:34 ah, thanks xach 22:54:58 Xach: stassats` : no one helpful is currently in the channel :( 22:55:00 krunkosaurus_: though, you want when instead of IF 22:55:38 krunkosaurus_: That is truly a pity. 22:55:54 krunkosaurus_: ask me on #emacs 22:56:11 stassats`: that helps 22:56:14 spacebat: I will see you on there! 22:59:30 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:01:06 -!- n2linux [~n2linux@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:28 -!- krunkosaurus_ [~krunkosau@173-13-142-170-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #lisp 23:01:52 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:05:29 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 23:05:48 booyaa [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:03 kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:40 tty234 [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-soilcxccbhgmpanl] has joined #lisp 23:06:55 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:06:58 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 23:07:02 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 23:07:51 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.91.1] 23:09:04 banisterfiend [~horse@118.82.186.189] has joined #lisp 23:11:17 *francogrex* goes to start learning lispgames 23:11:19 -!- mheld [~mheld@209-6-16-165.c3-0.frm-ubr1.sbo-frm.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: mheld] 23:11:20 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.30.238] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:11:25 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.49.131] has left #lisp 23:11:56 -!- rien is now known as rien_home 23:11:58 -!- Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:12:00 -!- kanen [~kanen@64.134.223.72] has quit [Quit: ... out of here ...] 23:15:02 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f757db0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:50 colin_ [~colin@p57BA787F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:22 Good morning everyone! 23:18:46 -!- colin_ is now known as colinh 23:18:49 hi beach 23:19:08 I have (defvar matrix-size 10) and (setq matrix (make-array '(matrix-size matrix-size) :element-type 'integer)) fails with "The value MATRIX-SIZE is not of type NUMBER." Why? 23:19:09 23:19:36 aidalgol: You have a quoted list. 23:19:47 Oh, right. 23:19:49 aidalgol: because it's a list with two symbols? 23:20:01 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 23:20:26 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:20:37 hackeron [~hackeron@gentoo/user/hackeron] has joined #lisp 23:20:50 -!- hackeron [~hackeron@gentoo/user/hackeron] has left #lisp 23:20:51 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.61.237] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:21:13 How can I make a list with matrix-size twice without typing matrix-size twice? 23:21:31 morning beach. It's just past midnight here :) 23:21:31 (make-list 2 :initial-element matrix-size) 23:21:44 stassats`: Clever! 23:21:57 [as usual] 23:21:58 (list #1=matrix-size #1#) 23:22:21 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:22:28 stassats`: The first one gives me "The value :INITIAL-ELEMENT is not of type (MOD 1152921504606846973)." 23:22:28 23:23:12 i guess that's because you skipped 2 23:23:53 Oh, yes. 23:25:21 in any case, you're really better off with (list matrix-size matrix-size) 23:25:24 What's going on with the #1 thing? 23:25:41 stassats`: Why is that? 23:25:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:25:49 aidalgol: It's a reader macro. 23:26:28 aidalgol: because it's more clear 23:26:28 -!- booyaa [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:26:46 aidalgol: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm 23:27:45 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:27:55 ((lambda (x) (list x x)) matrix-size) 23:28:37 (loop repeat 2 collect matrix-size) 23:29:30 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 23:29:31 (map-into (list nil nil) (constantly matrix-size)) 23:30:14 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30:33 Obfuscated C still looks much worse. 23:31:15 (let (x) (push matrix-size x) (push (first x) x) x) 23:31:34 aidalgol: why do you want to do this anyway? 23:32:35 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:17 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-83-229.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:34:20 gigamonkey: Do what? 23:35:41 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:36:46 aidalgol: make a list with matrix-size twice without typing it twice? 23:36:55 ok, my final version: (read-from-string (format nil "(~2@{~a~:* ~:})" matrix-size)) 23:36:57 pnq1 [~nick@ACA2F3DE.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:16 stassats`: oh man, I missed a chance to use FORMAT. I must be slowing down. 23:38:13 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2C3AE.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:38:32 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 23:38:33 I'm learning Lisp on a Mac and was wondering if anyone could recommend a particular Lisp? I have Allegro CL, Clozure CL, LispWorks and something else which seems to be SBCL+Slime+Aquamacs. I'm trying them out in parallel but my first contact is obviously with the editors, and not so much with the implementations as such. Are there any strong feelings about one or the other being obviously better, or worse? (I'm going to get a "depends what you want 23:38:34 answer, aren't I? 23:38:59 i like SBCL and Clozure CL 23:39:05 dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 23:39:17 *Xach* also 23:39:37 colinh: I think you should use one of the commercial Lisps, either Allegro or LispWorks. 23:39:46 CCL has a Cocoa bridge... 23:39:55 beach: :-) 23:40:32 colinh: I am perfectly serirous. 23:40:32 beach: why? 23:40:41 but Allegro's REPL editing commands (shortcuts) are WEIRD 23:40:57 colinh: you can use SLIME with Allegro. 23:40:57 gigamonkey: Because someone who is willing to pay for the Mac should be willing to pay for the Lisp system as well. 23:41:02 oh, i thought you were just recommending the other two of the four... 23:41:04 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.217] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 23:41:22 beach: maybe colinh won it in a lottery 23:41:30 or stole it 23:41:54 gigamonkey: Our commercial vendors have to survive somehow, and people who are willing to pay for their OS are prime targets for helping them out. 23:41:55 beach: channeling KMP? 23:42:18 colinh: I'm on mac using emacs, slime, sbcl - very happy with this setup 23:42:25 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:29 Clozure is commercial also, btw 23:42:31 gigamonkey: No, I am the first to recommend FLOSS. 23:42:34 and you can pay to SBCL guys 23:42:36 Well, I'd say people who need whatever features the commercial vendors provide that the free "vendors" don't are the prime candidates to support them. 23:42:36 is that Ready Lisp? 23:42:40 stassats`: Ah, true! 23:43:08 http://sb-studio.net 23:43:09 and of course Allegro CL and LispWorks LOOK nicer 23:43:25 nicer than emacs, are you crazy? 23:43:27 colinh: well, that's debatable. 23:43:45 Nicer icons? 23:44:08 we Mac people are very particular when it comes to icons and scroll bars and stuff like that 23:44:30 icons i saw in a museum are much nicer 23:44:34 compile emacs and set tool-bar-mode and scroll-bar-mode to nil 23:44:40 colinh: Yet another reason to use something like LispWorks. 23:45:13 gigamonkey: Plus, we will get fewer questions here about why this-or-that free implementation doesn't works so well on their favorite commercial OS. 23:45:14 beach: does Lispworks have a Mac native UI 23:45:15 mmm. Are there any technical differences? 23:45:19 get used to disappointment regarding non-Objective C languages on the mac and good UIs (: 23:45:29 gigamonkey: I have no idea. I don't use commercial software. 23:45:33 beach: tons of Lispers use free Lisps on Macs. I can't imagine that's a problem. 23:45:34 colinh: most differences between implementations are technical (-: 23:45:46 colinh: some are faster, some support native threads, that kind of thing 23:46:13 some have kittens of death 23:46:22 oh dear 23:47:09 (I don't think there are any really good mac UIs around nowadays. in the time of Carbon and the power PC, MCL was a very decent mac implementation) 23:47:22 isn't it odd that aftera long process of agreeing on a COMMON Lisp, there are so many varieties to choose from? 23:47:36 colinh: No. 23:47:39 colinh: well, they all support the COMMON lisp part (-: 23:48:02 colinh: the way there is different, of course. choice of tradeoffs and all that 23:48:07 colinh: it's the other way around 23:48:30 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-120-140.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:48:47 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 23:48:49 well, I was looking at CLX, and there was a version of it for a and for b and for c... 23:50:04 nowadays, the only CLX you need is the one in quicklisp (-: 23:50:18 aha 23:51:02 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:51:31 sooo, what is quicklisp... 23:51:49 http://quicklisp.org/ - there are a bunch of libraries out there that work on all (or most) implementations. using quicklisp, you can easily rely on them being there, whichever impl you use 23:52:47 ok 23:52:56 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:09 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@cb9-67-84.cloudburst9.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53:17 hargettp_ [~anonymous@pool-71-184-176-10.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:46 -!- hargettp_ [~anonymous@pool-71-184-176-10.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:54:04 -!- unkanon is now known as rien 23:55:18 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:55:53 sounds convenient. 23:56:31 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:34 it is! (: 23:57:51 more exploring to do... I'm on it! :) 23:58:07 have fun (: 23:58:16 thanks 23:58:20 -!- colinh [~colin@p57BA787F.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp