00:00:32 rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-216-116.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:09 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:03:51 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 00:05:12 -!- jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:07:32 -!- mheld [~mheld@74.61.205.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:09:57 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:43 Actually, I've realised that iterating over a string isn't what I want. I want to operate on n consecutive characters in a string at a time, so I need more of a sliding window than one character at a time. 00:11:45 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@19.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:00 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:10 aidalgol: 'sliding window'? pls give a practical example of what you want 00:13:57 slyrus [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-113.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:10 aidalgol: One way is to represent the sliding window by two numbers and use subseq on the string 00:14:33 kanru [~kanru@118-160-160-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:18 tcr: Yeah, that should work. Thanks! 00:16:11 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:16:57 kanen [~kanen@c-69-181-21-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:43 -!- astoon [~astoon@92.243.187.229] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:22:42 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:00 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-181.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Good night.] 00:26:11 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:30 How do I get the length of a string? I can't find any such function in the HyperSpec or Common Lisp the Language. 00:27:56 -!- Joreji [~thomas@88-227.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:27:56 Look in the sequences section 00:28:20 aidalgol: what name were you looking for ? something like strlen ? 00:28:25 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: alexsuraci] 00:28:33 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:40 it has the most unimaginable name! 00:28:41 fe[nl]ix: No, I looked up string, then vector. 00:28:56 length 00:29:13 EarlGray [~EarlGray@91.145.205.182] has joined #lisp 00:29:50 Ah ha... my variable was undefined. >_< *That* was the problem. 00:30:15 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:01 -!- alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:31:24 alexsuraci_ [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:39 -!- kanen [~kanen@c-69-181-21-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ... out of here ...] 00:33:04 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:33:04 -!- alexsuraci_ is now known as alexsuraci 00:35:36 what are you talking about really? 00:36:14 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.57.22.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:37:58 francogrex: The variable I was passing to length. Just me misreading error messages. 00:39:20 if you say so. we can't judge if we can't see anything. I suggest anyway that you do some serious basic reading before you attempt anything 00:40:14 -!- EarlGray [~EarlGray@91.145.205.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:40:20 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-45-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:49 Anyone checked this out? https://github.com/mtravers/wuwei/ 00:41:19 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:34 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.136.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43:14 adhoc [~a1145892@2001:388:f000::1141] has joined #lisp 00:43:37 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:45:55 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 00:46:55 ... wow 00:48:35 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 00:48:43 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@78.175.221.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:49:43 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:50:06 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.12.110] has joined #lisp 00:50:14 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:50:24 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:29 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 00:50:37 -!- Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-70-151.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:50:48 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:14 looks nice, I wonder how tied to prototype.js it is 00:52:32 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:09 I like how SBCL is smart enough to figure out my loop is infinite but then gives me an error mesage about deleting unreachable code. True but not entirely helpful. 00:55:54 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 00:56:09 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:11 it can be non-infinite due to a non local exit 00:57:18 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 00:57:23 stassats: No doubt. Doesn't make the error message any clearer. 00:57:34 But now I know to be on the lookout. 00:57:36 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:36 Anyone checked this out? https://github.com/mtravers/wuwei/ <-- a bit. The demoes were pretty damn buggy so I lost interest very soon 00:57:47 *mathrick* doesn't believe in exclusively AJAX stuff anyway 00:57:59 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:58:23 stassats: Though technically a non-local exit would make the error message wrong in my case. 00:58:39 What's the nearest equivalent to the sum loop clause for getting the product instead of the sum? 00:58:51 I've got (with-open-file (...) (loop ... )) and it complains about unreachable code on the with-open-file, presumably the code that closes the file. 00:58:52 Actually, scratch that. 00:59:32 What's the most efficient way to get the product of digits in a number-string? 00:59:36 But assuming with-open-file uses unwind-protect or equivalent if the loop actually did call something that did a non-local exit the file should still be closed. 01:00:02 aidalgol: something involving REDUCE and DIGIT-CHAR-P 01:01:03 gigamonkey: it doesn't do that for me 01:01:19 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:01:32 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:44 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:02:00 aidalgol: (reduce (lambda (a b) (- (char-code b ) (char-code #\0))) "123" :initial-value 0) ? 01:02:13 assuming you don't care about EBCDIC, which you don't 01:02:23 hey 01:02:28 I don't even know what EBCDIC is. 01:02:34 also, make it use * and :initial-value 1 01:02:39 (reduce #'* "123" :key #'digit-char-p) 01:02:44 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:52 Thanks, stassats. 01:03:02 note that that will only work for base-10 and below 01:03:02 stassats: PFFFFT 01:03:15 But, I swear, I was reading the hyperspec page on reduce. 01:03:16 Phoodus: it will? 01:03:52 also, I had no idea DIGIT-CHAR-P was there and defined so usefully 01:03:55 or you were commenting not on my code? 01:04:03 stassats: oh, that was to mathrick's answer. was watching 2 places and typing too slowly 01:04:03 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has left #lisp 01:06:11 I know I don't need it here, but how does :initial-argument affect reduce's behaviour? 01:06:13 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-160-160-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:06:42 it provides an initial value 01:08:37 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:09:22 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:11:44 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:12:58 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A522A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:14:09 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:04 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.77.127] has joined #lisp 01:22:46 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:35:54 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:06 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:43:24 stassats: Initial value for what? 01:43:40 read the clhs entry on reduce 01:46:11 I did. 01:46:27 I don't quite understand how :initial-value is used. 01:47:28 Oh, hang on. I missed this line earlier. 01:47:32 "If initial-value is supplied, it is logically placed before the subsequence (or after it if from-end is true) and included in the reduction operation." 01:47:39 That makes perfect sense now. 01:49:25 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-113.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:51:08 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 01:52:53 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:06 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:58 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55:03 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 01:56:37 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.14.22] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:58:13 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:59:12 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:02:00 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.192.127] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:02:03 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 02:02:31 abaw [~user@2001:b020:c:2:21c:c4ff:fe5f:26c8] has joined #lisp 02:02:55 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 02:05:24 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483B4E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:05:59 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:07 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 02:06:47 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has left #lisp 02:09:53 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:14:38 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:14:49 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:15:31 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 02:16:52 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-164-55.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:17:35 -!- pavelludi [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:17:36 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:17:56 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 02:20:31 murilass1 [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 02:20:53 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:31:54 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-93.sub3.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 02:35:56 -!- murilass1 [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:42:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:43:29 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:10 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:48:29 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: 'night, all!] 02:49:27 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-93.sub3.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:53:29 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 02:55:51 longshot [~longshot@180.184.12.10] has joined #lisp 02:56:15 -!- tmh [6348b02c@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:56:53 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:06:02 jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-249-211.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:20 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:08:41 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:58 -!- heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:12:07 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-93.sub3.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:34 m4dnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 03:13:50 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:20:17 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:26:21 revel [~revel@host86-129-86-251.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:37 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:46 -!- jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-249-211.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:28:25 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:32:22 hi 03:32:53 when i assign a element of a list as a variable name e.g. (setf (gethash (last item) *hash-table*) 03:33:49 the hash key is the single item in a list e.g. (X), instead of just X 03:33:53 how can i fix this 03:34:16 you mean how can you turn a list of 1 element into just the element itself? 03:34:25 I put (setf (gethash (first (last item)) *hash-table*) 03:34:32 or is it more intertwined with the actual setf use? 03:34:34 i was wondering if there was a better way 03:34:50 that seems to be the most straightforward way 03:35:02 no better way? 03:35:13 LAST always returns a list, because it could be NIL, in the case of (last nil) 03:35:14 just looks wrong 03:35:42 so in effect, it returns the last cons cell, or nil 03:36:00 then use car ;) 03:40:10 how come it doesn't occur when i use first, surely that could be nil? 03:40:21 first simply displays the atom 03:40:28 not within a list 03:45:26 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:45:37 When I run a function that doesn't return a value, nil is ouput onto the REPL, can I stop this? 03:46:43 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:05 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:06 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:31 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-93.sub3.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:49:36 revel: what implementation do you use? Normally, if the function doesn't reutrn anything, nothing is printed. 03:49:45 Or at most, a comment such as ; No value. 03:50:07 revel: Compare: (values) vs. (values 42) 03:50:37 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:09 revel: what doesn't occur when you use first? 03:52:00 oh, you mean that (first '(1 2 3)) doesn't return (1)? 03:52:30 yeah, common lisp is an amalgomation of a number of prior lisps' input, you're going to find a number of inconsistencies in usage 03:52:54 besides, if first did return a cons cell, it'd actually have to create a new one 03:53:08 LAST returns an existing cons cell 03:54:07 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-11-188.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:53 Phoodus: It could return the first cons cell  but then it would be closer to IDENTITY than CAR ;) 03:55:17 -!- eppa [~mch@203-214-33-75.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:55:23 right 03:55:56 -!- Caffeine [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:56:07 also, first/rest are a "pair" of related functions, which are just renames of car/cdr. 03:56:16 Caffeine [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has joined #lisp 03:56:18 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-143-124.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:56:24 instead of first/last 03:56:41 -!- Caffeine is now known as Guest52656 04:00:21 -!- revel [~revel@host86-129-86-251.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:01:11 csmax [~max@p5790F1B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:13 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-140.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:01:15 Well, they imply different semantics. 04:01:15 revel: lisp is a low level programming language. In particular, it doesn't have a list abstract data type. LAST returns the last CONS cell of the list, not the last element. If you want a function that returns a last element, you have to implement a list abstract data type and write it yourself. You could write (defun last-element (list) (first (last list))). 04:01:28 Use first/rest upon sequences and car/cdr upon trees, imho. 04:01:45 first/rest doesn't work to well on vectors or strings ;) 04:02:29 Well, that's because CL is silly. 04:02:41 Again, if you want a sequence abstract data type, you have to implement it yourself and write first-element, and rest-elements yourself. 04:02:52 The point is that first/rest are part of a sequence semantic. 04:03:04 Not at all. They're defined in the CONS dictionary. 04:03:13 they're part of a list semantic 04:03:22 There's no list in lisp. 04:03:31 there are list semantics in lisp 04:03:33 No. They're part of a sequence semantic, which CL happens to implement for lists. 04:03:50 It's called the "14. Conses" chapter, not the list chapter. 04:03:54 If you don't understand this, then you don't understand what first/rest establish as operators. 04:03:54 hi! i tryed to start reading "art of metaobject protocol", but it starts directly to implementation of MOP. Is there a good intro how to use MOP? 04:04:14 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-138-242.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:04:25 npoektop: The MOP is not standard in CL, so you might look at your implementation's documentation. 04:04:27 pjb: mapcar is in the conses chapter, too. 04:04:32 Indeed. 04:04:36 THere's no list in lisp. 04:04:45 there's no list type in lisp 04:04:52 Yes, there is. 04:04:53 -!- csmax_ [~max@p5790FBF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:05:00 well, there's no list primitive in lisp 04:05:02 Lists in CL are like strings in C. 04:05:17 Yes, somewhat :-) 04:05:23 They are patterns of objects rather than objects. 04:05:28 but to say it doesn't do list semantics, when it's a list processor, is kind of befuddling :) 04:05:58 Phoodus: yes. Often, to be good at something, you have to avoid that something. 04:05:59 Well, it does sequence semantics upon lists built from cons blocks. 04:06:25 Where a sequence is defined essentially by an element and a successor function. 04:06:38 and good ol' LIST is in the cons section, too :) 04:06:47 For the above reason. 04:07:52 hmm, it's not really an element and successor function, it's more a node, element accessor function, and successor node function to be more specific 04:08:16 Only because you've conflated the implementation with the specification. 04:08:30 in (1 2 3), you don't have just 2 and #'cdr 04:08:36 after you've passed the first item 04:08:36 Imagine extending first/rest upon the integers, for example. 04:08:57 lisp specifically has cons cells 04:08:59 In this case (first 1) -> 1, and (rest 1) -> 2, for example. 04:09:04 correct 04:09:08 Yes, and you're conflating them as above. 04:09:09 but (rest 2) fails 04:09:16 in the list case 04:09:18 Stop doing that if you want to talk about sequences. 04:09:33 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-njhwsebhdepqnlyq] has joined #lisp 04:09:42 you're conflating the element of the list with the iterator of the list 04:09:57 No, I am not. 04:10:21 then how can you get at the next element of a list if all you have is the prior element and a successor function? 04:10:48 You don't have the prior element -- you have the prior sequence. 04:10:51 Phoodus: you can't if there may be repeatitions. 04:11:01 Where a sequence is defined essentially by an element and a successor function. 04:11:02 In the example above, the prior sequence is 1. 04:11:04 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 04:11:09 1 is not a sequence. 04:11:17 so yeah, if you add in the sequence, it works 04:11:26 You then perform an element function upon the sequence 1, and produce the element 1, ... 04:12:32 ok, I think I get what you're saying. In your case, the successor function in that quoted statement isn't #'car, but the closure specific to that cons cell that returns the next cell 04:12:42 s/#'car/#'cdr/ 04:13:33 It would be simpler to understand rest in terms of a generic function, for an implementation of the above example. 04:14:09 I was just pointing out the difference between (rest 2) in the domain of integers, and (rest 2) in the domain of (6 2 9 1 2) 04:14:17 Likewise you could establish first/rest upon vectors by using displaced arrays. 04:14:33 Well, you'd need to be able to differentiate the two sequences. 04:14:52 -!- sm` [~s@77.29.102.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:15:31 right, there's more context involved 04:15:44 Well, sorry, by using a state containing the vector and current index. There's no need for displacement. 04:16:09 -!- adhoc [~a1145892@2001:388:f000::1141] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:17:40 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.77.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:19:23 Hmm, I kind of like how javascript uses symbols for strings. 04:20:09 Zhivago: lisp does to, doesn't it? (princ '(Hello World!)) 04:20:13 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:20:23 Well, to a much more limited extent. 04:20:32 sm` [~s@77.28.112.118] has joined #lisp 04:20:36 That is, all strings in javascript are symbols. 04:20:52 Which lets you get rid of strings. 04:22:26 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:39 I wonder how well they handle demand interning. 04:23:43 -!- Guest52656 is now known as Max_- 04:24:33 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 04:25:35 -!- az [~az@p5796C231.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 04:26:53 it's much easier to equate strings and symbols in languages that don't have symbols in packages 04:27:17 you can just auto-intern all strings 04:27:56 You could, but that would be expensive for ephemeral strings. 04:28:22 note I'm not a java user, but looking to do that exact sort of change for our logic language, where tons of comparisons take place. The cost of re-indexing strings is worth the comparison benefit 04:28:24 So presumably you would demand intern upon the first identity operation. 04:28:26 s/java/javascript/ 04:28:47 and once that auto-interning is done, there's not much difference between strings & symbols 04:29:02 Yes, which is what javascript has done -- it's elegant. 04:29:27 They don't implement packages, though which is a problem for distributed authors. 04:30:08 lazy interning is always an option, seems that it would be appropriate for js 04:30:18 in the light of crunching intermediate strings 04:31:37 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 04:44:31 kilo__ [7ab59b61@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.181.155.97] has joined #lisp 04:47:30 ebzzry [~ebzzry@203.213.202.186] has joined #lisp 04:47:54 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-86-25-216-116.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 04:49:52 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:52:52 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 04:54:03 -!- kilo__ [7ab59b61@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.181.155.97] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:54:36 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:54:36 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 04:54:36 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:56:14 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:57:01 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:00:22 rafl_ [rafl@goatse.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:00:38 -!- rafl [rafl@debian/developer/rafl] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:01:17 -!- rafl_ is now known as rafl 05:02:53 evening everyone 05:06:25 kclifton [~kclifton@S01060026f32c2837.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:31 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:12:20 good morning everyone 05:13:06 nilly [~nil@c-98-247-253-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:57 -!- b14ck [~b14ck@cpe-72-129-70-245.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:14:26 b14ck [~b14ck@cpe-72-129-70-245.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:57 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:13 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B3276C7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:13 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.12.110] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:22:16 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 05:23:55 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:24:13 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:24:35 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B327824.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:24:48 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:07 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 05:25:19 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:25:23 PardoSandia [~MayateSan@174-125-77-19.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:24 Tired of niggggers? Sick of their monkeyshines? Then join Chimpout Forum! We welcome anybody who isn't a fecal negroid beast! That is right! WE ARE NOT WHITE SUPREMACISTS; rather we are Negro Inferiorists! If you hate niggers and aren't a nigger, you can join! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 05:25:39 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 05:25:51 -!- Zhivago has set mode +q PardoSandia!*@* 05:25:56 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 05:32:28 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 05:35:22 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:39:42 altuzar [~altuzar@189.216.156.84] has joined #lisp 05:39:45 rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-172-68.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:57 -!- PardoSandia [~MayateSan@174-125-77-19.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [] 05:53:56 There seem to be a lack of nigger haters... 05:56:05 pjb: In a lisp chatroom in 2011...how could that be? ;) 05:56:32 Lisp welcomes niggers, too. 05:57:01 Along with chinks, spics, wogs and seppos. 05:57:12 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-njhwsebhdepqnlyq] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:00:05 they'll blame it on the jews 06:00:32 I guess the derogatory term for jew is "jew". 06:00:37 Well, lisp welcomes those, too. 06:01:26 Morning. 06:01:52 Zhivago: kike/kyke gets tossed about a lot 06:02:00 Ah, there you go. 06:06:47 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:07:33 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 06:12:23 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:13:39 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 06:13:51 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:15:02 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 06:17:06 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:17:40 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [] 06:18:05 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:20:17 Is there some function to search a list for a string? 06:20:31 Im sure there is, I guess I need to know it's name : 06:20:32 :) 06:22:28 ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@112.202.239.39] has joined #lisp 06:22:47 red1ynx [~red1ynx@46.56.184.201] has joined #lisp 06:23:10 jsoft: (member "hello" '("foo" "hello" "bar") :test #'equal) 06:23:32 But it may not return what you think it does before trying. 06:23:39 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81D84A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: sleep] 06:23:50 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ifwlbwxagzdqhlvi] has joined #lisp 06:24:40 (oh, and you might want #'string= if your list is uniform, or any other predicate you need) 06:25:13 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@203.213.202.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:25:18 Hmm, thanks 06:28:01 you may want FIND instead 06:29:00 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:43:14 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 06:43:45 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has joined #lisp 06:46:23 -!- ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@112.202.239.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:47:27 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-80-5-172-68.glw-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: rfg] 06:48:58 amb007 [~a_bakic@19.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:20 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 06:50:59 ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@203.213.202.186] has joined #lisp 06:54:25 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:54:46 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:57:54 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:58:57 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:05:55 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:08:26 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:08:26 -!- Max_- [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:08:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:08:33 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:08:35 Max_- [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has joined #lisp 07:08:36 -!- dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dakeyras] 07:09:02 -!- Max_- is now known as Guest61329 07:10:37 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:11:33 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:11:59 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:23:02 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:23:33 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:24:12 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:24:19 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:24:49 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:25:40 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:26:04 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:37 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 07:32:48 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:33:10 nostoi [~nostoi@241.Red-79-157-250.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:41 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:35:17 good morning 07:39:08 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@S01060026f32c2837.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 07:39:36 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:41:11 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:47:37 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@241.Red-79-157-250.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:49:17 -!- altuzar [~altuzar@189.216.156.84] has quit [Quit: altuzar] 07:59:27 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:19 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:20 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-eqaktoqhdrgxzoyr] has joined #lisp 08:14:31 jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:19:06 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:26 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:23:23 Can I have multiple variables in a single loop, or do I have to nest loops? 08:23:24 snearch [~snearch@f053005138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:24:07 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.245.76] has joined #lisp 08:24:36 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:38 I'm asking because I don't see any examples of either in cltl. 08:24:57 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.203.99] has joined #lisp 08:25:15 adhoc [~adhoc@ppp118-210-132-42.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:29 you can have multiple variable clauses, yes 08:25:39 What would that look like? 08:26:01 (loop where x = 1 where y = 2 08:26:03 e.g., (loop for x in xs for y in xs collect (list x y)) 08:26:12 *ys 08:26:23 Ralith: maybe you mean WITH 08:26:25 er 08:26:26 yeah 08:27:21 WITH instead of what? 08:27:55 instead of the "where".. you can look at the clhs entry for LOOP 08:28:37 thanks 08:28:38 there are also many examples of loop features, see section 6.1.8 08:29:16 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053005138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:29:32 snearch [~snearch@f053005138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:31:14 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:51 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:36:50 mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:37:13 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-34.uio.no] has joined #lisp 08:37:17 hello mvilleneuve 08:37:25 [and good afternoon everyone!] 08:37:46 hi beach 08:37:51 visiting Vietnam again? 08:38:10 Hey rudi! Yes, this time for 6 months! 08:38:21 rudi: And you are in Norway? 08:38:31 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:38:51 yes, Oslo university, for 2-3 more years at least 08:38:53 aidalgol: nested loops and multiple variables do totally different things. 08:39:11 rudi: Nice! Doing what? 08:39:53 beach: some teaching, but mostly research projects - actor-style parallel OO languages 08:40:08 beach: Oh, right. Duh. 08:40:16 rudi: Sounds good! Have you hooked up with frodef yet? 08:40:18 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:41 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 08:40:42 beach: no, but good idea 08:40:56 What's a good way to represent a matrix in common lisp? 08:41:01 rudi: How long have you been there? 08:41:09 aidalgol: As a 2D array. 08:41:45 beach: 1 year this month, although there was lots of traveling (and will be this year as well) 08:41:53 aidalgol: If the matrix is large and sparse, you might have to think a bit harder. 08:42:11 Aren't large and sparse opposites? 08:42:20 Or am I confusing terms? 08:42:33 aidalgol: By "large" I meant the dimensions. 08:43:07 And sparse? 08:43:31 aidalgol: Having few elements not equal to 0 (or some other default). 08:43:46 Ah, OK. 08:44:36 rudi: Let me know if one of your travels takes you near where I am. 08:45:16 Is there a limit to a CL array's dimensions? I see that a 2D array is not just an array of arrays as in C. 08:45:18 beach: sure! so far I'm planning a SE Asia tour in late summer, and will be in Sydney this month 08:45:21 rudi: You didn't come to #lisp very much in 2010. Planning to change that? 08:45:33 s/dimensions/dimension/ 08:45:55 rudi: I'll be back in France end of June. Might not work, then. 08:46:07 beach: I didn't hack so much lisp recently - let's see if I can do better this year. 08:46:22 rudi: Please do! :) 08:46:56 beach: well, France is also nice ... ;) 08:46:56 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:47:11 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:47:19 aidalgol: see array-rank-limit 08:47:32 rudi: Sure. 08:47:42 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:48:08 aidalgol: ARRAY-RANK-LIMIT 08:49:23 rudi: What would you hack on? 08:50:00 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-164-55.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 08:50:34 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 08:51:18 beach: nothing concrete planned until March, but I'd love to take up some fun-programming again 08:51:54 at the moment it's all paper deadlines (which are also fun and take me to places all over the world, so I'm not complaining) 08:52:11 paid for, I presume? 08:54:01 yes - one of the perks of my job is that it got me to Shanghai, Spitsbergen, etc last year 08:54:36 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:54:46 Contrary to what some people think, like drdo for instance, academia is great! 08:55:05 Much like coffee enimas. 08:55:20 On the other hand, it might be a matter of what different people are suited to. 08:55:38 it's not for everyone to be sure, but I like being here 08:57:43 -!- b14ck [~b14ck@cpe-72-129-70-245.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 09:03:36 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:05:41 timor [~timor@port-92-195-143-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:10:00 Wait what? I see coffee enemas..Zhivago what? 09:10:12 Let me read backwards and get the context here.. 09:11:19 rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has joined #lisp 09:12:23 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 09:12:47 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:14:34 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-143-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:15:08 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:15:55 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:19:33 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:20:28 timor [~timor@port-92-195-143-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:24:48 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:25:50 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:26:43 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 09:26:51 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 09:27:04 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 09:28:17 (merge 'string "table" "chair" #'string>) -> "tchableair" but (merge 'string "table" "chair" #'string<) -> "chairtable" ? 09:28:50 it's probably the expected result according to specs , but not what one would logically expect 09:29:02 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 09:30:51 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 09:32:20 tfb [~tfb@94.197.38.159.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:32:42 is it because of the "destruction" of the sequences ? 09:34:10 no 09:34:26 char-lessp gives the same 09:34:26 it's because merge is allowed to assume that its two input sequences are already sorted 09:34:48 ok 09:35:16 is there a way to disabuse merge for such assumption 09:35:18 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:20 and you should also note that the test predicate takes elements of the sequence (in this case, characters) 09:35:58 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:36:05 francogrex: no, but you could get a clue for yourself 09:36:27 ? a clue 09:38:21 balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:15 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:42:30 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 09:43:37 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:43:41 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 09:43:46 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:43:52 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Client Quit] 09:44:21 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:45:08 -!- ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@203.213.202.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:45:30 Soulman1 [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:48:28 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-143-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:49:34 -!- Salamander__ is now known as Salamander 09:49:48 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50:30 timor [~timor@port-92-195-143-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:00 -!- tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has quit [Changing host] 09:52:01 tvaalen [~r@unaffiliated/tvaal] has joined #lisp 09:56:12 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:56:45 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:13 adhet: ok, after reflection I understood how it works; wasn't straightforward :) 09:58:46 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:00:27 francogrex: What was your insight? 10:02:36 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-143-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:04:05 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:05:53 beach: I started playing around with something like (merge 'list '(1 3 5) '(2 4 6) #'<) and the changing the predicate and the numbers... 10:06:39 francogrex: Merge is destructive. Don't feed it literal data. 10:06:45 H4ns`` [~user@pD4B9E00A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:59 ok 10:07:18 maybe that also complicated my understanding :) 10:07:58 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:08:56 b 10:09:12 (that was C-x b RET, sorry) 10:09:49 i'm still waiting for the OS which will focus the window i'm looking at 10:09:59 -!- H4ns` [~user@p579F8F37.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:10:13 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:10:19 jdz: feasible. 10:10:38 jdz: rig up one of the free eyetracking libs with a webcam and some 3D math 10:11:42 Ralith: you mean i'm expected to do something to make it work? 10:14:39 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:14:47 -!- sea4ever [~sea@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:53 trebor_home [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:33 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ifwlbwxagzdqhlvi] has left #lisp 10:24:38 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-npjujqiexsevmwuo] has joined #lisp 10:25:58 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [] 10:27:34 -!- qfr [void@unaffiliated/yw] has quit [Quit: Theism is cancer] 10:29:25 -!- red1ynx [~red1ynx@46.56.184.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:30:55 qfr [void@unaffiliated/yw] has joined #lisp 10:32:19 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.203.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:33:30 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.203.99] has joined #lisp 10:35:32 heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:05 is 13 minutes an acceptable time for compiling sbcl these days? 10:36:26 *_3b* compiled it in 6 on my laptop a while ago 10:37:20 <_3b> running tests was probably another 7-10 though, not sure if you were counting that or not 10:37:40 I got a TinyAir 2 days ago form work, and am wondering whether I should try to keep the BigMac as well 10:37:50 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.203.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:38:00 so it's about twice as slow as a real laptop 10:38:25 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.84.196.72] has joined #lisp 10:38:42 <_3b> this one is moderately high end desktop replacement style, so might not qualify as a 'real laptop' for a lot of uses :) 10:39:20 balooga1 [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:14 -!- balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:43:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-194-253.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:43:46 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:44:57 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:45:16 hello lispers 10:45:24 happy New Year 10:45:29 ave fe[nl]ix 10:46:49 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:47:10 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:48:05 bsod1 [~osa1@78.175.221.35] has joined #lisp 10:59:17 ZabaQ [~john.conn@213.246.114.89] has joined #lisp 11:05:24 Joreji [~thomas@88-227.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:07:33 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 11:15:17 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:15:33 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:15:52 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:18:15 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 11:26:03 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-npjujqiexsevmwuo] has left #lisp 11:39:13 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:43:21 addled [~addled@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:50 Bronsa [~bronsa@host118-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:45:27 symbole` [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-41-208-194-253.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:46:43 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 11:47:51 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:47:56 -!- addled [~addled@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 11:48:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.59.255] has joined #lisp 11:52:16 addled [~addled@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:53 -!- jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:53:04 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:55:21 -!- katesmith_ is now known as katesmih 11:55:26 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@dhcp-077-249-149-030.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:55:42 -!- katesmih is now known as kateamirh 11:56:01 -!- kateamirh is now known as katesmith 11:59:40 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@213.246.114.89] has left #lisp 12:00:28 surrounder [~surrounde@dhcp-077-249-149-030.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 12:03:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-93.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:10:16 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host118-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:11:17 Bronsa [~bronsa@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:12:18 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.39.219.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:13:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:19:26 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-34.uio.no] has quit [Quit: rudi] 12:19:42 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:19:58 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-34.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:21:44 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 12:22:26 -!- benny [~benny@i577A282C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:23:51 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:26:54 pavelludi [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 12:28:38 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 12:34:47 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:40:14 jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-249-211.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:12 Hi all. Quick question: what is the point of file local variables like mode: lisp, syntax:common-lisp, package:foo in emacs these days? 12:41:12 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 12:41:45 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:43:04 ifaria [~liuhui@222.20.216.45] has joined #lisp 12:43:29 jmckitrick: some people still use lispmachines for development :) 12:45:16 dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:46:12 And that's pretty much it's only use, correct? 12:46:59 jmckitrick: various emacsen read those. 12:47:10 syntax and package do not matter with slime, so it's a bad idea to use them. 12:47:44 pkhuong: I use emacs and slime, and I'm wondering if there's any sense using them. 12:47:48 -!- symbole` [~user@ool-182ff693.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:47:53 mode is good if the file doesn't end in .lisp, e.g. for a configuration file that is in lisp syntax but has a weird name 12:47:59 lichtblau: that's what I was wondering. 12:48:10 -!- ifaria [~liuhui@222.20.216.45] has left #lisp 12:48:16 Other than that, they are pretty much obsolete, it sounds. 12:48:41 there are lots of modern emacs-specific settings that make sense, of course, e.g. to make emacs use spaces instead of tabs, or to enable display of trailing space, etc. 12:49:09 *lichtblau* recently taught hemlock to understand indent-tabs-mode: nil 12:49:09 -!- tfb [~tfb@94.197.38.159.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 12:49:13 Sure. I was just wondering about the lisp-specific settings, especially with slime around. 12:51:13 Is there any point to file headers for code not intended to be released anyway? 12:51:14 The thing with the lisp-specific settings that slime ignores is that slime users setting these will not even notice when they are specifying incorrect values. And then anyone with an editor that uses them will have more trouble with the incorrect values than they'd have without any setting at all. 12:51:23 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55:06 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:58:18 -!- qfr [void@unaffiliated/yw] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:58:59 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:59:28 qfr [void@death.to.religion------long.live.the.atheist.race.siyobik.info] has joined #lisp 13:02:57 Amadiro [~customer@ti0021a380-dhcp3255.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:03:29 -!- jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-249-211.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:45 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:04:24 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:06:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:50 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 13:08:36 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 13:12:57 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:58 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:13:12 -!- sm` [~s@77.28.112.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:13:22 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:13:23 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:17:43 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has left #lisp 13:17:47 sm` [~s@77.29.101.28] has joined #lisp 13:17:50 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:22:31 timor [~timor@port-92-195-143-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:24:16 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:26:36 dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 13:27:35 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:28:01 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-93.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:29:31 sellout [~greg@64.134.66.221] has joined #lisp 13:29:50 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:30:24 Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:31:04 -!- Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 13:31:32 Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:33:36 any italian lisper here, other then me ? 13:34:07 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.66.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:35:52 kiuma: a few 13:36:16 -!- Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 13:37:03 Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:37:10 not really italian, but in italy, yeah 13:37:55 I probably will need a lisp dev for a project I'm purposing 13:39:35 kanru [~kanru@118-160-160-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:15 see, Bronsa is from italy :) 13:40:24 and telecom italia sucks 13:41:15 no 13:41:19 its not telecom italia 13:41:29 its me having problems with my modem 13:41:42 lol 13:41:53 no, i have ping times of around 3-5 seconds to google.it every day 13:42:01 well, yes 13:42:05 telecom italia sucks too 13:42:21 -!- Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:42:50 Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:44:09 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053005138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:44:59 anybody else getting error when doing C-c C-s (slime-complete-form)? 13:46:53 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 13:48:02 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.59.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:49:03 ok, turns out slime-c-p-c depends on slime-sbcl-exts (which i was not loading) 13:49:55 *Xach* is very concerned about bundling a "bad" slime with quicklisp 13:50:07 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-47-61.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:53:08 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:53:08 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 13:53:28 joeygibson [~joeygibso@208.52.139.50] has joined #lisp 13:54:00 jdz: that sounds odd 13:54:27 also dependencies are automatically resolved nowadays between slime contrib 13:54:56 tfb [~tfb@92.41.243.83.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:55:06 well, in my case they seem not to be 13:55:50 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:58:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-102.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:59:05 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:11 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-206-205.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:29 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-206-205.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:29 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:00:00 does emacs have a command line option to _change_ which file to load as initfile? 14:00:07 i can't seem to find any 14:00:31 jdz: emacs -q -l new-init-file.el? 14:00:31 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:57 Xach: oh, -l (--script failed for me) 14:02:03 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:27 macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h88-206-143-104.vokby.se] has joined #lisp 14:04:34 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118326 14:05:10 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:05:26 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:52 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 14:05:53 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-89-245.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:06:14 hi all! 14:06:33 *insomniaSalt* decided to order a copy of Land of Lisp today! 14:07:23 insomniaSalt: Excellent! 14:07:42 _3b: woo hoo, 3bproject updates! 14:08:19 that, and having already at Lecture-3b of abelson and sussman without being too much confused gives a warm fuzzy feeling 14:08:39 -!- sm` [~s@77.29.101.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:08:40 /s/having/having arrived 14:08:56 cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:25 urandom__ [~user@p548A6881.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:17 and at this point I have to say, I'd never expected such fundamental type as a LIST to be actually syntactic sugar for somehting constructed ouf of pairs-of-pairs 14:10:30 crazy stuff 14:12:06 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:02 incandenza__ [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:12 -!- incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:13:22 sm` [~s@77.29.21.146] has joined #lisp 14:14:03 -!- incandenza [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:15:16 incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:20 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:19:12 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:07 kclifton [~kclifton@S01060026f32c2837.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:30 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@S01060026f32c2837.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:21:06 linked lists aren't strictly speaking a data type 14:21:22 a fundamental data structure, sure 14:22:30 aintme [~user@2.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:26:27 dlowe: Are you going to be at the next Boston Lisp Meeting? 14:26:33 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 14:26:51 It's a new year and I have some time to spend on meetings again. I am feeling hyped and it is a thorough hyping. 14:28:13 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-156.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:30:51 Xach: I haven't received any information about it 14:31:19 Me neither. I mean on general principle. 14:31:28 ah, well, I'm certainly going to try 14:31:53 fogus` [c6970d0f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.151.13.15] has joined #lisp 14:32:09 -!- twem2` [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has left #lisp 14:33:25 I have missed my "local" Lisp friends. 14:37:28 does anyone know if sbcl's release is officially skipped for december? 14:38:20 jsnell might know. 14:39:04 twem2` [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:10 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:53 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:47:29 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-34.uio.no] has quit [Quit: rudi] 14:50:38 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-34.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:59:01 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:59:34 -!- rhysodidae [~rhysodida@91.207.42.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:00:03 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:02 az [~az@p4FE4F6D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:34 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 15:04:15 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-34.uio.no] has quit [Quit: rudi] 15:05:28 xinming_ [~hyy@122.238.76.197] has joined #lisp 15:06:42 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:24 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.14.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:12:05 rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-34.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:12:16 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:12:27 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:12:27 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 15:12:27 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 15:12:51 -!- incandenza__ is now known as incandenza 15:13:06 rhysodidae [~rhysodida@91.207.42.52] has joined #lisp 15:13:17 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:25 -!- macrobat [~fuzzyglee@h88-206-143-104.vokby.se] has left #lisp 15:16:28 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:43 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:21:37 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@78.175.221.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:23:35 -!- sm` [~s@77.29.21.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:25:26 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26:02 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.114.89] has joined #lisp 15:29:27 sm` [~s@77.29.100.59] has joined #lisp 15:29:40 bsod1 [~osa1@88.242.35.178] has joined #lisp 15:30:06 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:30:06 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 15:30:06 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 15:31:09 -!- pocket_ [~pocket_@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31:31 -!- rudi [~rudi@1x-193-157-206-34.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Client exciting.] 15:31:33 tsuru: yes, I felt it would have made for too small a release. will definitely do one on January whether the pace picks up or not 15:32:26 pocket_ [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:33:52 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:33:59 Well, there's the CLX-doesn't-compile problem. 15:34:12 That is a little frustrating. 15:36:03 quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:16 sellout [~greg@64.134.66.221] has joined #lisp 15:40:11 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:43:12 tmh [6348b02c@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:43:39 Greetings lispers! 15:46:01 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.84.196.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:48:17 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:06 -!- quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:51:41 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.66.221] has quit [Quit: sellout] 15:54:08 V-ille1 [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:54:44 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:55:31 -!- V-ille1 [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 15:55:53 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:58:46 -!- qfr [void@death.to.religion------long.live.the.atheist.race.siyobik.info] has quit [Changing host] 15:58:46 qfr [void@unaffiliated/yw] has joined #lisp 15:59:02 kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:07 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:59:47 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:59:53 mheld_ [~mheld@74.61.205.248] has joined #lisp 16:00:41 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-160-160-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:01:56 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:11 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03:43 mheld [~mheld@184.240.19.223] has joined #lisp 16:05:52 -!- mheld_ [~mheld@74.61.205.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:06:04 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:38 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007017.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 16:08:10 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.242.35.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:08:18 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-163-140.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:09:30 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:09:39 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:09:55 -!- mheld [~mheld@184.240.19.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:13:21 -!- mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:14:19 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:15:26 mheld [~mheld@184.240.19.223] has joined #lisp 16:15:30 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:16:23 gigamonkey: did you see my (one-line) patch? 16:16:31 unkanon-work [~unkanon@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:53 Xach: you mean the SBCL regression or the long-standing CLX-doesn't-compile-cleanly problem? 16:19:08 slyrus: SBCL regression 16:19:10 oh, I see... nvm... 16:19:36 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75721d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:51 _ism [~frinnn@i59F61769.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:23:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:25:17 -!- biTT [~frinnn@i59F63027.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:29:47 Xach: quicklisp doesn't use HEAD? 16:30:06 or doesn't include implementations at all? 16:30:22 jsnell: Does not include implementations. 16:31:50 -!- pocket_ [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:32:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-102.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:32:18 ok (sorry, a little out of touch with the new hotness) 16:36:42 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 16:53:36 James147 [~James147@unaffiliated/james147] has joined #lisp 16:54:07 -!- James147 [~James147@unaffiliated/james147] has left #lisp 16:55:37 simo163 [~quassel@85.136.15.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 16:55:40 -!- mheld [~mheld@184.240.19.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:56:34 just created a lisp page fb; its about lisp and artificial intelegence http://www.facebook.com/pages/Lisp/170016599698767?ref=ts 16:57:38 hope it's useful for you gus 16:57:42 guys :) 16:58:21 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:59:19 haha how? 16:59:36 facebook is evil 16:59:39 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:59:44 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:01:03 how is lisp ai? 17:01:09 is lisp close to ai? 17:01:23 Lisp is not close to AI. 17:03:08 then why is the facebook page about lisp and ai 17:03:19 bsod1 [~osa1@88.240.132.166] has joined #lisp 17:03:32 I'm not sure. I'd guess it's because simo163 doesn't know much about Lisp. 17:03:47 Or AI. 17:03:54 lol 17:03:58 kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-195-80.ip56.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:03:58 oh is that what ur sayin? 17:04:04 yesssssss Xach 17:04:08 excactly! 17:04:18 sim0163 u got called out 17:04:22 muhdik: Go away. 17:05:01 From LispWorks docs -> "A series of source to source optimizing transformations are performed to simplify the source tree. Type declarations are used to select specialized, efficient versions of low level functions." 17:05:07 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-eqaktoqhdrgxzoyr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:05:23 muhdik out? 17:05:38 The page -> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw60/LW/html/lw-98.htm#pgfId-886010 17:06:41 I'm intrigued by the idea of writing macros that result in code with specialized versions of functions. For example, I could use the ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE to pick the proper specialized function. Does anyone do this in practice? 17:07:18 -!- addled [~addled@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:07:28 do you mean compiler macros? 17:07:31 mudik do u know something about ai? 17:07:37 tmh: I think that's more difficult because declarations and implementation type inferences not portably available. 17:07:48 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-195-80.ip56.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:07:56 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:07:57 that bc i found Lisp the best to compiler all my works 17:08:32 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:08:41 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:08:42 rlinuxguy2 [~rlinuxguy@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:08 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 17:09:38 me 17:09:44 i know a few things about ai 17:09:46 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09:54 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:10:02 simo163 u compile ur work? 17:10:26 Please. 17:10:30 You. Your. 17:10:40 -!- simo163 [~quassel@85.136.15.136.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:48 If you guys want to discuss AI and Lisp, please do it with real words. 17:11:02 Artificial Language 17:11:35 Xach: Yes, I'm trying to conceive of a rational way to migrate from generic routines that are used for development to specialized routines that are optimized after everything works. 17:12:19 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007017.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:12:43 Xach: I've very recently, out of necessity, become obsessed with performance. If I can't learn to get good enough performance, I may have to stop using Lisp for my work. 17:13:21 LAP/VOP time! 17:14:04 -!- rlinuxguy2 [~rlinuxguy@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:04 LAP/VOP ? 17:14:04 if you're using sbcl, deftransforms are a very nice mechanism 17:14:27 tmh: assembly in Lisp. 17:14:31 jsnell: That's part of the problem, by necessity, I'm on windows and using LispWorks. 17:14:39 Goodbye, Lisp. 17:14:43 haha 17:14:56 Xach: Ah, virtual ops, what is LAP? 17:15:03 Lisp Assembly Program, I think. 17:15:13 Xach: I'm not a quitter! ;-) 17:15:40 tmh: Good! My experience trying to make LispWorks fast was not all that good. At least the fixnums are >24 bits now. 17:15:54 I knew LispWorks was not as good as SBCL, but I didn't think it was that bad. 17:15:58 lisp si slow? 17:16:07 muhdik: No, you are. 17:16:15 SBCL is so much better than everything else for the things I can measure. 17:16:19 lisp is slow and interpreted 17:17:21 tmh: LW does have an int32 package/api for doing modular arithmetic. I was thinking about using that for SHA1 stuff for Quicklisp. 17:17:26 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:17:31 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:18:35 Xach: All my stuff is floating point, but out of curiousity, is that in the hcl or lw package? 17:18:45 tmh: It's in the int32 package, I think. 17:20:02 Xach: apropos lists a bunch of int32 stuff in the system package. 17:20:23 Xach: (require 'int32) generated an error 17:20:55 Oh, I guess it is in SYSTEM. 17:22:00 Xach: portably fast SHA1? fun. For 32bit Allegro, you'll need to break SHA1's operations down to 16 bit pairs, and get allegro to do those 16 bit ops efficiently inline. At least that worked for me reasonably well; much faster than doing actual 32 bit ops anyway. (fixnums-remain-fixnums helps.) 17:22:08 Note to self: apropos is your friend. I just (apropos "float"), lots to look at. I also think I need to learn to deliver the routines as executables instead of running everything in the IDE. 17:22:13 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:22:59 lichtblau: I'm not worried about an implementation per implementation, if that's what it takes. 17:23:10 tmh: The LW manual is also pretty good. 17:23:37 lichtblau: I'm worried that no amount of unportable code can make e.g. CLISP fast :( 17:23:50 iwillig [~iwillig@160.39.64.62] has joined #lisp 17:23:54 *Xach* will cross that bridge when the time comes 17:24:08 Xach: Yeah, the documentation is good. 17:24:38 how many hours will clisp users have to wait for an initial hunchentoot download using normal sha1 code? 17:24:52 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:24:54 tmh: And the mailing list is good, too. Very friendly and helpful. 17:25:12 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:25:12 lichtblau: took 30 seconds of ironclad sha1 on lispbuilder :( 17:25:18 I also thought the 64bit LispWorks was supposed to have improved performance. 17:25:20 ccl took 15 or so 17:25:35 sbcl was something like 0.35 17:25:38 Xach: Yes, I've been searching it. I think what I should focus on is FFI to fortran. 17:25:43 what os do u code lisp in? 17:25:44 "quick" lisp 17:25:59 muhdik: There is no OS, only lisp. 17:26:51 I think with the right set of compiler declarations and delivery options, I can generate something acceptably fast. 17:27:19 Correction, something with acceptable performance, I don't care how fast it generates. :-P 17:28:10 well, when you have single files that take upwards of a minute to compile, you start caring :-P 17:29:09 Phoodus: That sounds like a huge file. I generally like to keep my files well below ~1000 lines. 17:29:34 it wasn't too huge of a file, but it was chock full of macros. Even then, it only expanded to 7k lines or so 17:29:35 But, I currently have a file that is over 5,000 lines, so my rules are flexible. :-) 17:29:42 but that was a known sbcl speed bug a few versions ago 17:29:48 ...compiler speed bug... 17:30:12 There's some rudimentary support in ccl for operations on "natural"-sized words, but it is often kind of hard to get the compiler to do it. 17:33:08 ccl:compiler;X86;x862.lisp is 10000 lines or so. It takes about 10 seconds to compile. 17:33:28 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-68-160.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:35:27 rme: is there documentation for that rudimentary support? 17:36:42 sluggo [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:15 lichtblau: unfortunately not. 17:38:37 Oh, snap! Despite have optimization declarations in the function definition, if you compile in the IDE using Ctrl-Shift-c, it ignores the definitions. I've been totally shooting myself in the foot by running from the IDE. 17:39:02 Slime+SBCL would never have ignored me like that. :-) 17:39:04 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@160.39.64.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:41:09 rme: ok. what is the interface like? is it similar to any of the other implementations? 17:41:30 the others being: allegro ("when enabled, the compiler just pretends that operations don't overflow"), like sbcl ("fancy functions that cut away overflow, allowing the compiler to compile into code that ignores overflow in the first place"), like lispworks ("extra functions for the actual 32bit operations") 17:41:36 Hm, maybe not, the output tab seems ambiguous. 17:41:38 ... or do you write lap code...? 17:41:58 There's no special interface; it's just based on type declarations. 17:42:20 I should see about writing an example. 17:42:42 iwillig [~iwillig@160.39.64.62] has joined #lisp 17:44:19 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-91-65.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:45:45 sacho [~sacho@95-42-68-160.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 17:46:23 something like http://paste.lisp.org/display/118334 isn't totally horrible, for instance. 17:47:07 -!- younder [~john@9.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:47:52 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-164-55.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:48:11 anfab [~chatzilla@122.164.129.137] has joined #lisp 17:48:34 loxs [~loxs@77.70.57.12] has joined #lisp 17:48:43 OK. This example uses only operations that do not overflow, so that the compiler can easily propagate the type from the argument to the return value, right? 17:49:04 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@160.39.64.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:49:34 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-178-64-240-14.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 17:50:26 So the compiler allows bit operations to be done efficiently on 32/64 bit, but doesn't make modular 32/64 bit-integer arithmetic fast? 17:51:48 sluggo_ [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:48 -!- sluggo [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:12 There's not an explicit interface to modular 32/64 bit arithmetic. There's probably should be; I think it's on our wish list http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/wiki/ToDo 17:53:22 I have to admit that for something like SHA-1, I'd probably resort to LAP. But I like writing LAP. 17:53:33 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 17:53:54 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-143-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:54:04 -!- anfab [~chatzilla@122.164.129.137] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014]] 17:54:32 And I'd get to write it 3 1/2 times! (arm, ppc, x86[-64]). 17:54:39 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 17:55:57 rme: can you point to a snippet of (CCL's?) LAP code? 17:56:29 -!- Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:57:15 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:57:37 adeht: sure, just look in ccl:level-0;X86; Or do M-. on %mrg31k3p for example. 17:57:51 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff6792.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 17:58:14 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:58:17 that means getting ccl ;).. but I'll do that, thanks 17:58:34 Not everyone has ccl? Wait a sec and I'll paste a link. 17:58:39 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 17:58:43 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:58:53 http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/browser/trunk/source/level-0/X86/x86-numbers.lisp 17:58:56 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 18:00:03 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:00:07 Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:00:08 interesting 18:00:08 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:01:34 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:54 -!- Guest61329 is now known as Caffeine 18:02:35 *Caffeine* is curious... is this some kind of lispy assembly? or embedded assembly in lisp? 18:03:30 Caffeine: Yes. 18:03:56 nice! :D 18:04:35 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:05:07 -!- sluggo_ is now known as sluggo 18:08:32 emef0 [~user@wlan086-063.wlan.wwu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:10:06 hi 18:10:49 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:11:01 please is possible to format a line in the output stream over another? 18:11:17 rme: if you ever do a lw-style int32 interface, please make it non-braindead and include an *unsigned* shift op 18:12:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-122.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:12:38 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:14:12 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:14:43 Posterdati: you mean to output on the line above a previously printed line? not without ANSI/curses/something 18:15:05 Phoodus: above a previously printed line 18:15:37 you'd have to output codes that the terminal which is displaying the output can comprehend. It's really not something per the programming language 18:16:25 ? 18:17:24 figure out how your terminal can interpret a "cursor up" or something, and output those bytes 18:17:37 but it'll be specific to that target 18:22:58 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 18:24:18 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-91-65.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:27:23 terminfo.lisp will help on unix terminals 18:29:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.91.1] 18:30:18 Note to self: Don't forget to set *PRINT-LENGTH* when working with large arrays. 18:31:31 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:32:01 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:32:42 tmh: If appropriate, I'd put the array into a structure and add a print-object method for that one 18:33:43 tcr: I'm just experimenting with some stuff. I usually wrap array data in a class or structure because there are usually other parameters associated with the array. 18:37:39 Can someone help me with optimising an algorithm? http://pastebin.com/Dq52dhHT 18:38:32 aidalgol: I'd like to help, but it's not clear to me what the function is meant to do. 18:38:47 aidalgol: and what performance you're seeing, and what you'd like to see instead. 18:39:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.245.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:39:05 What is ARRAY-DIMENSION-LIMIT on SBCL? 18:39:24 tmh: 64-bit: 1152921504606846973 18:39:51 it's not real 18:40:02 that's right. it's integer. 18:40:08 Xach: So each dimension can be that large, or is that the limit on ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE. 18:40:14 -!- emef0 [~user@wlan086-063.wlan.wwu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:40:27 ? 18:40:37 array-total-size-limit is the same value 18:42:02 stassats: Are you saying that that limit is bogus? 18:42:05 aidalgol: Is it an attempt to find the 5-digit sequence with the greatest value in a string of digits? 18:42:31 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.243.83.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:42:37 tmh: yes, you can't allocate so much space 18:42:37 Xach: It's a solution to http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=8 I'm trying to instead of calculating 7*3*1*6*7 (the first five digits in the number), then 3*1*6*7*1 (the next five digits), calculate let prod=3*1*6, then 7*prod and prod*1. 18:43:04 stassats: So SBCL is limited by the available memory? 18:43:06 -!- Amadiro [~customer@ti0021a380-dhcp3255.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:43:21 by architecture 18:43:55 stassats: Just to be clear, by the hardware? 18:43:57 I want to use this optimised version to solve problem 11 (find the largest product of four numbers in a row). 18:44:25 tmh: yes 18:45:51 tritchey [~tritchey@173.15.15-30-elmhurst.il.chicago.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:16 aidalgol: I think a faster approach will be to compute the product on a rolling basis: divide by the value leaving the product, then multiply by the value entering the product. repeatedly taking subsequences out will be costly. 18:48:28 Xach: I don't quite understand your approach. 18:48:31 wanderingelf [~user@c-24-131-74-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@88-227.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:50:20 WonTu [~WonTu@p57B552D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:34 -!- WonTu [~WonTu@p57B552D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:53:15 The ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE-LIMIT on LispWorks is 536870911. That is an absolute show stopper. I'm going to have to transition back to SBCL. I guess I'll run it in a virtualbox for the time being and try to support the windows porting as much as possible. 18:54:09 aidalgol: b*c*d*e*f = (a*b*c*d*e)/a * f 18:54:37 tmh: The windows port works for many purposes without much trouble. 18:54:54 tmh: you could always use an array of arrays. 18:54:57 Xach: It's only 32bit. 18:55:43 pkhuong: Rather than spend time on a work-around, I'd rather spend my time getting SBCL to work. 18:56:09 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:10 pkhuong: Ah, that makes sense now. What's the best way to that in CL? In C, I'd just have a while loop and keep dividing and multiplying a variable. 18:56:14 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:56:35 aidalgol: in CL, you'd have a loop and keep dividing and multiplying by a variable. 18:57:00 tmh: it's the same on SBCL 18:57:04 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:18 stassats: What's the same? 18:57:26 Xach: So, exactly the same thing? 18:57:29 tmh: a-t-s-l 18:57:51 stassats: same on 32bit versus 64bit? 18:58:16 no, it's the same on 32-bit sbcl as on LispWorks 32-bit 18:58:46 stassats: Yes, I just opened SBCL 1.0.37 on win7 and see that. Except that, I'm using 64bit LispWorks. 18:58:54 aidalgol: pretty much. 18:59:31 tmh: i was to say on LispWorks you showed 19:00:05 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 19:00:39 64-bit CCL on windows has a-t-s-l of 1152921504606846973 19:00:47 Woops, that's not right. 19:00:56 Where did that paste come from? 19:01:17 This is it -> 72057594037927936 19:01:29 tmh: from SBCL? 19:01:41 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:01:58 ccl64 returns 72057594037927936 everywhere, I think. 19:02:02 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.114.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:12 The 32-bit SBCL limit is 536870909 19:02:15 tmh: the 72... value is already enough to cover the whole address space. 19:02:43 pkhuong: Yeah, I see that. It looks like my transition will be LispWorks -> CCL -> SBCL. 19:02:46 tmh: right, that's (expt 2 56) on 64-bit ccl. 32-bit ccl has a sometimes-limiting array-total-size-limit of (expt 2 24). 19:02:59 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:03:18 Well, looks like it's back to SLIME. At least I get parenscript back. 19:03:46 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:03:51 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:04:31 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 19:04:53 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:05:27 The problem with Emacs on Windows is that it is 32-bit which causes problems with large files. 19:05:34 I can work around that, though. 19:05:57 what kind of files do you open with emacs? 19:05:58 I'll also get to use ERC again instead of the Freenode webchat. 19:06:04 Large text files. 19:06:25 I really should not do that though. 19:06:41 tmh: afaik you can build a 64bit bin of emacs on windows too 19:07:32 MrElendig: What I should spend my time doing is writing the code to read the original binary data instead of relying on an external program to dump it to text files. 19:08:36 zomgbie [~jesus@212095007119.public.telering.at] has joined #lisp 19:09:12 yes! 19:09:45 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 19:09:55 My LispWorks contract expires in April, at least I got 3/4 of a year out of the last renewal. 19:10:23 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:10:28 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:11:10 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:11:11 jlpeters [~james@dsl231-034-006.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:38 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.240.132.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13:03 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 19:14:03 bsod1 [~osa1@88.244.143.60] has joined #lisp 19:15:36 tmh: expired license only expires tech support, or does it expire the whole thing? 19:15:55 p_l|backup: Support and updates. 19:16:44 tmh: ah, good then 19:17:06 *p_l|backup* ponders getting latest LW sometime in the summer 19:17:51 p_l|backup: Generally, I like it, the IDE is decent, saved-sessions are handy, it's just turning out to be entirely unsuited to the type of tasks I have. 19:18:15 Maybe I should send them a note and give them a chance to increase the limit. 19:18:19 tmh: I'm thinking of getting it for application delivery :) 19:18:20 did you contact support about it? 19:18:37 Although, looking through lisp hug, the limit has historically been low. 19:18:55 "use linked lists, dude" 19:18:59 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:19:05 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:20:37 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:21:05 -!- jlpeters [~james@dsl231-034-006.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:30 jlpeters [~james@dsl231-034-006.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:40 p_l|backup: That was a motivating factor for me as well. Application delivery and CAPI. 19:24:00 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 19:24:54 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:25:28 tmh: I'm expecting to use SBCL, CCL and GHC for most of the heavy lifting in the project, maybe ABCL as well. Depends on what tasks I'll have to code in the end 19:26:45 p_l|backup: hi. I'm just entering the conversation; if you don't mind me asking: what are you considering ABCL for? 19:26:49 p_l|backup: Yeah, I need to get better at combining tools. It might be a little rash to just drop my license, but I'm pretty frustrated at the moment. If I'm going to spend $$$, I don't expect these types of headaches. 19:27:35 I need to see what I can accomplish with CCL/SBCL on windows before my contract expires in April. 19:27:50 tmh: the LW license isn't really $$$. Try Franz if you want to spend money! 19:27:55 Also see if LispWorks steps up to the plate and corrects this limit. 19:28:12 (note: I work with ACL for some projects) 19:28:24 ehu: I didn't even consider Franz because of the issues with distribution. 19:29:01 understandably, yes. 19:29:21 my project doesn't get distributed widely. 19:29:23 that helps 19:29:37 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:29:44 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:29:52 I deliver the tools to the client for in-house use. 19:30:17 tmh: I doubt if it's as simple as (setq *internal-array-total-size-limit* (expt 2 64)); there are probably implementation data representation decisions that dictate the limit. However, asking LispWorks about your situation is clearly a good idea. 19:30:21 ehu: there's possibility it might be easier to use something that integrates with Java, especially if we end up using Hadoop 19:30:52 milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff6792.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:31:02 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff6792.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:13 rme: It's not that simple, this issue was raised with previous versions of LispWorks. If they can commit to correcting it in the next release, I'd be satisfied. 19:31:20 p_l|backup: ah. ok. and what is 'it'? 19:32:03 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:04 ehu: computation part of my father's habilitation paper (on a government grant) 19:32:45 hehe. not really a time to spend big bucks. 19:32:51 ok. 19:32:53 thanks. 19:33:05 if you experience problems with ABCL, come to #abcl. 19:34:25 ehu: I know it might not be the best way to acquire money for LW, but frankly speaking... LW isn't as expensive as it seems, and it's only in case if a certain possible follow up idea will be implemented, where LW would shine 19:39:38 azizo [~azizo@2.88.35.203] has joined #lisp 19:40:33 -!- azizo [~azizo@2.88.35.203] has left #lisp 19:40:50 ehu: namely, there's possibility of reusing some of the work there (if not all) for commercial purpose. With license fees similar to that of Piano/Piano-X :D 19:41:27 p_l|backup: Are you working in the aerospace field? 19:41:46 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:41:50 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:41:50 yes he binds rockets on his ass 19:41:53 lol 19:41:55 tmh: not myself, but the habilitation work is related to aircraft accident investigation - which is my father's current work 19:41:57 homie: Go away. 19:42:34 I might work in aerospace in the future, though 19:42:41 apox [apox@scorn.csh.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:42:47 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 19:42:56 for now, I'm just a poor, not-exactly-stable (mentally), CS student :) 19:42:58 p_l|backup: Ah, okay. I'm impressed that Piano is written in lisp. 19:43:12 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*@ns1.smartcall.bg *!*@gateway/web/freenode/x-qvyvnvvtgyrbpofy *!*Paolo@*.chcgilgm.static.covad.net *!Serenity@* 19:43:15 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*@adsl-83-100-180-137.karoo.KCOM.COM *!*Resbaloso@64.134.232.* *!*brah@*.synflood.me *!*syst@*.dhcp.insightbb.com 19:43:18 -!- Xach has set mode -bb *!*sponsz@*.fbx.proxad.net *!*gschuett@* 19:43:25 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 19:44:46 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 19:45:16 Joreji [~thomas@88-227.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:46:25 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-226-230-252.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 19:49:42 tmh: anyway, if a certain idea comes to pass, LW is IMHO the best implementation right now to make installable, deliverable applications for win32 :-) 19:49:49 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:51:05 p_l|backup: Obviously, I agree, I purchased it. I've just gotten hammered in the past couple weeks with the numeric performance and now with the array size limit. I'm pretty frustrated at the moment. 19:51:50 heh. Fortunately, it's not going to be an issue for the client :D 19:52:19 timor [~timor@port-92-195-143-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:53:20 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 19:53:54 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:58 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@46-116-152-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:54:03 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Client Quit] 19:54:31 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 19:54:40 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 19:54:57 Euthydemus` [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:31 codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.222] has joined #lisp 19:57:24 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:58:19 hi 19:58:52 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-143-233.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:01:28 please I've got the following problem: as stated in "Practical Common Lisp" page 26, I'm trying to read a list from a file. But my problem is that list have to comprehend a call to function, how can I write it on a file? Tx 20:01:56 *Xach* cannot comprehend 20:02:52 Posterdati: Are you saying the list is a quoted function call? 20:03:11 Guest27244 [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:30 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@173.15.15-30-elmhurst.il.chicago.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 20:04:45 *gigamonkey* can't comprehend either 20:04:53 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:57 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:05:42 -!- joeygibson [~joeygibso@208.52.139.50] has left #lisp 20:05:57 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:06:06 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 20:07:37 redline6561: apply argument 20:07:51 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:08:11 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 20:08:13 redline6561: (apply (getf branch :model) (getf branch :parameters-list)) 20:08:31 Posterdati: That's what is in the file? 20:08:46 redline6561: ((:name "R1" :nodes (1 2) :type "resistance" :model nil :value 1d0) 20:08:47 (:name "R2" :nodes (6 0) :type "resistance" :model nil :value 2d0)) 20:08:49 What are you trying to do now, read-from-string? 20:09:18 redline6561: the same thing on "Practical Common Lisp" page 26 20:09:25 Alright, hang on... 20:11:05 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F6D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 20:11:34 Okay. I see what you're doing with the list structure. That's in the file and fine. What's going on with that (apply (getf ...) (getf ...)) stuff? Is that in the file or something you're using at the REPL? 20:11:51 from the file 20:12:08 I've got a file named netlist.net composed how I told you 20:12:32 and I like to fill a vars with this structure read from file 20:13:14 That makes sense but I don't see why you have apply in the file. 20:13:31 Posterdati: What is the apply call supposed to do? 20:13:44 Posterdati: PS: Putting the code and file on paste.lisp.org could help. ;) 20:13:51 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:14:42 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 20:15:50 carlocci [~nes@93.37.215.132] has joined #lisp 20:17:50 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:32 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:48 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:28:29 -!- pavelludi [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:28:43 _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 20:29:08 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 20:29:35 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 20:29:51 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 20:30:02 mode flood pending, sorry. 20:30:02 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:05 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*uu3uu33@*.syr.edu naggerbot!*@* *!*fschwido@*.pools.arcor-ip.net *!*manfuck@*.triad.res.rr.com 20:30:08 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*sodigh@*.hsd1.ma.comcast.net *!*i-bot@71.175.42.* *!*HMAmemef@*.bri.connect.net.au *!*ss@*.dip.t-dialin.net 20:30:11 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb orgullocachanill!*@* *!*@*dsl.dyn.telnor.net *!*sdfd@*.dsl.net.pk *!*4ac01091*@gateway/* 20:30:21 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:39 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*jhjhxh@*.gprs.ge *!*usesec@*.dynamic.swissvpn.net *!*@unaffiliated/stoned *!*@unaffiliated/moose 20:30:42 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*omally@*.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com *!*comp@*.hsd1.nj.comcast.net *!*WP-Gast@*.dclient.hispeed.ch *!*coontact@*.sd.sd.cox.net 20:30:45 -!- Xach has set mode -bbbb blackpeople!*@* *!*hoffmann@*.ok.ok.cox.net *!*Phylo@*.hsd1.pa.comcast.net *!*tmccrary@* 20:30:48 -!- Xach has set mode -b *!*cypherpi@*.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 20:30:51 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 20:33:37 *cmm* is very pleased with quicklisp, buildapp, cl-ppcre & osicat 20:34:01 makes it really pleasant to write script-type things 20:35:05 now, it would be great to somehow cause buildapp to be more intimate with quicklisp. I must be missing something bindingly obvious 20:35:13 snearch [~snearch@f053005138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:35:51 No, it's not very quicklisp-aware. 20:36:48 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:56 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:36:59 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:59 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 20:37:04 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:37:44 francogrex [~user@109.130.136.35] has joined #lisp 20:37:44 for now I've just symlinked all the needed asds into the script's source directory. good thing I don't use the dwim.hu libraries :) 20:38:29 --asdf-tree ~/quicklisp might do the trick, but it might not. 20:38:52 quicklisp does some blacklisting of system files to avoid conflicts. 20:38:52 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38:56 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 20:38:56 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:20 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 20:39:33 huh. will check back at the office tomorrow, thanks! 20:39:33 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 20:39:50 balooga: connection problems? 20:40:04 -!- blowers [~ian@223.33.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:02 ziga` [~user@BSN-142-121-45.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:40 redline6561: ok, wait 20:43:09 ferada` [~user@g224147026.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:43:20 redline6561: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118342 20:44:10 I'm exhausting the heap in 32-bit SBCL on windows and I don't think I should be. What section in the manual covers this? 20:44:36 redline6561: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118342#1 20:44:44 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:03 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-195-158.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:38 -!- ferada [~user@g230249019.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:47:29 redline6561: ok? 20:48:11 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:26 tmh: How much do you think you're really using and why? 20:48:58 Xach: Not sure, just trying to create a (simple-array double-float (10000 10000)) 20:49:35 tmh: The default heap size is 500MB, i think. 20:49:49 That's so 1995 20:50:08 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:51:16 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:52:24 tmh: --dynamic-space-size N will use a heap size of N megabytes, I think. 20:52:48 Xach: I see that in the manual, I was just looking for how to interrogate the current image. 20:53:42 hmm, i used to know. (- sb-vm:dynamic-space-end sb-vm:dynamic-space-start) maybe? 20:53:57 on 64 bit it's much bigger by default. 20:54:39 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:56:55 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@212095007119.public.telering.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:57:17 Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-52-94.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:57:21 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:54 -!- wanderingelf [~user@c-24-131-74-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:00:18 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:01:16 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.136.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:05 SBCL 32bit uses 512 MB heap, afaik (which is a reasonable setting), while on 64bit it uses 8G as default 21:03:18 CCL does respectively 512MB and 512GB iirc 21:03:52 That should be enough for anybody. 21:03:59 -!- fogus` is now known as fogus`away 21:06:11 -!- jlpeters [~james@dsl231-034-006.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 21:06:38 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 21:07:08 -!- tmh [6348b02c@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:07:18 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.114.89] has joined #lisp 21:07:42 pnq [~nick@ACA28A15.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:27 espadrine [86d6a50b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.214.165.11] has joined #lisp 21:13:14 -!- Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-52-94.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 21:13:20 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:21 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 21:13:49 -!- Guest27244 [~Adium@he190123.dsl.fsr.net] has left #lisp 21:14:23 -!- mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:15:11 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:16:12 -!- trebor_home [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17:11 -!- codelurker [~codelurke@66.71.230.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:17:30 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:56 hi 21:17:58 please 21:18:12 mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:13 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 21:18:15 khumba [~khumba@S010600259ce46bb1.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:56 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:22:24 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 21:22:25 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:23:50 vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 21:24:28 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:24:53 Athas` [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 21:25:01 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:13 -!- rhysodidae [~rhysodida@91.207.42.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:26:01 Posterdati: Ask a question. 21:26:23 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d01241e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:37 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:26:47 hi 21:28:47 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 21:28:53 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:30:31 slyrus [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-113.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:37 -!- vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:31:22 benny [~benny@i577A8D4E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:32:59 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:33:16 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:06 So, if I was tempted to make the type of slot refer to the type of it's class, what should I do instead? 21:34:51 Omit the specification of its type. 21:35:21 nilly: First declare the class via (defclass clas (superclasses..) ()) 21:36:05 who can re-start minion ? 21:36:06 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 21:36:22 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:36:30 nyef, chandler, kpreid afaik 21:36:35 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:16 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:38:16 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:38:47 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:38:54 tmh [6348b02c@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 21:39:07 Heap exhaustion can wreak all kinds of havoc. 21:39:10 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:39:49 tmh: ripping the coating off the HD platters, for example 21:40:42 Anywho, if I try to make a (simple-array double-float (100,000 100,000)) in 64-bit CCL, it starts puking chunks, consuming all memory and, yes, trying to rip the coating off of the HD platters. That's not a very large array by linear algebra standards. 21:41:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@88-227.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:41:12 I'm going to see what happens in 64-bit SBCL in a FreeBSD VM. 21:41:25 tcr: thanks 21:41:49 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:48 tmh: I'm getting '74.5 gigabytes'. That's a lot, no? 21:42:58 tmh: 80GB arrays? dense arrays? 21:43:00 really? 21:43:19 DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:43:19 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:43:19 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 21:44:01 "That's not a very large array by linear algebra standards." <== well, yes it is, actually :-) 21:44:32 I've got FEA models with millions of DOF, they may be sparse, but I can't imagine they're that sparse. 21:45:17 FEA models tend to be sparse. That's sort of the point. 21:46:48 depending how you do it, you might get away without ever setting up the linear system 21:47:56 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:48:21 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:51 (ftr, that's not the only reason why FEA is good) 21:49:44 -!- lonstein [lonstein@173.11.229.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:49:44 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:12 prxq: Realizing that the sparseness, bandwidth, etc of an FEA model is dependent on connectivity, do you have any idea what a typical matrix size, compressed, would be? 21:50:31 A large model with, say, 5million DOF. 21:50:59 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:51:11 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA28A15.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:51:20 what does DOF stand for in this case? 21:51:23 tmh: 3d, or 2d? Triangles, squares, etc? 21:51:28 ZabaQ: degree of freedom 21:51:46 tmh: a factor of 20 should be enough 21:51:51 prxq: Lets say all quads. 21:52:43 factor of 8 in 2d, factor of 26 in 3d. So scratch that with the 20. 21:52:44 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 21:52:44 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 21:52:44 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 21:54:02 tmh: it's somewhat dificult to say, because there are so many variations on this particular theme. I'd expect a factor of 100 to be on the high end. 21:54:09 prxq: So, (* 0.05 5E6 5E6) => 1.25E12. 21:54:14 prxq: Sure, 21:54:31 The connectivity is a big factor, but I am just trying to swag stuff. 21:55:25 sorry - used to kinematic chains with 6 DOF - the thought of 5 million DOF is slightly mind-altering. 21:55:54 tmh: that calculation is wrong. You have (* 100 5e6) => 5e8 21:56:04 tmh: if you mean the size of the matrix 21:56:04 -!- milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff6792.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:56:10 ZabaQ: Yes, it's a slightly different use of DOF. 21:56:24 prxq: Ok, I misunderstood you. 21:59:24 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 21:59:24 -!- balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:02:38 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:32 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:04:35 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:39 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:04:59 francogrex [~user@109.130.49.131] has joined #lisp 22:05:01 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.49.131] has left #lisp 22:05:30 francogrex [~user@109.130.49.131] has joined #lisp 22:05:41 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.194.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:07:29 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.48.134] has joined #lisp 22:09:48 paul0 [~paulogeye@189.114.206.119.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:10:56 -!- tmh [6348b02c@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:11:32 meh, i don't know how to use recursion and return values :( 22:12:00 http://pastebin.com/sJxmB6N2 22:12:12 (the function name is in portuguese) 22:12:23 olha tugas aqui :P 22:12:23 but... how do i return the last recursion value? 22:12:56 drdo`: Hi there, actually I'm from Brazil :) 22:12:59 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 22:13:05 oh 22:13:23 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:26 What's the problem? 22:13:38 this function is returning nil 22:14:04 i wanted it to return the value from the latest recursion 22:14:18 tmh [6367fbda@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 22:14:32 Back again, what did I miss? 22:14:53 These experiments in consuming all available memory are causing problems. 22:15:24 paul0: What are you trying to do? 22:15:24 paul0: UNLESS returns nil if the test evaluates to false 22:15:48 err, if the test evaluates to true. sorry. 22:16:05 paul0: you need something that returns the value you need when the recursion stops. 22:16:06 tmh: maybe you have to explain a little more what you are trying to do. 22:16:29 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-153-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:16:33 -!- ziga` [~user@BSN-142-121-45.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has left #lisp 22:16:39 Storing the linear system for a 5M DOF FE model should not consume more than a gigabyte, IMO. 22:16:58 drdo: estou tentando calcular taxa de juros mensal, sobre um valor inicial. Não sei como dizer isto em inglês 22:17:02 prxq: I'm trying to figure out if lisp is going to be able to support my long term development goals. 22:17:06 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f75721d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:30 I'm not sure, but I'm trying to create a recursive function to calculate the interest rate (I think this is the english name) 22:17:57 I mean, I know what I want to do, just don't know how it's called in english 22:18:16 prxq: Based on experience, I know that the 3M DOF is pushing up against 32GB of memory. 22:18:35 Pode usar o funcao "trace" para ver que sua função recursiva esta fazendo 22:18:48 tmh: what type of model is that? 22:19:08 I think we need another channel, like #lisp-pt :) 22:19:14 prxq: This is using ANSYS, it's a model of the root of a wind turbine blade. Nothing too exotic. 22:19:20 if you have a scalar, a gig should be enough (i.e. diffusion, or so). 22:19:46 tmh: so you have a couple of tensor quantities, etc? 22:20:07 paul0: I think you need to read 22:20:16 then I can imagine that you need that much. 22:20:29 (trace JUROS-COMPOSTOS) then (JUROS-COMPOSTOS 4 3 12) 22:20:29 prxq: Sure, it's solid mechanics, there are 6 components of stress/strain. 22:20:43 or something like that 22:20:48 tmh: ok, that's another matter entirely. 22:20:58 francogrex: that's a good tip. I'll try it 22:21:36 tmh: yay, ANSYS. You were the one who worked on some CL tools for it? 22:21:43 prxq: I'm wanting my own code. I want something that I can correct and add features to at will. My experience with commercial vendors of engineering software is not "positive". 22:22:01 p_l|backup: Still am, I'm married to that damn program at the moment. 22:22:10 tmh: I don't see why lisp won't be an asset there. 22:22:55 -!- khumba [~khumba@S010600259ce46bb1.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Oyasumi.] 22:22:59 prxq: For the past few years, it has been, but I've just run into some issues the past couple weeks, actually the past couple months, that have made me question whether or not it will work. 22:23:27 fixed 22:23:38 Maybe I just need to be better at finding the right mix of lisp/fortran code. I was striving for all lisp, but that may not be doable. 22:24:05 tmh: do you get privmsg? 22:24:11 ok 22:24:25 Yes, but the webchat client is acting weird 22:24:46 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:24:48 francogrex, drdo: http://pastebin.com/JcCwACJq 22:24:55 this code is working now 22:25:11 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:30 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:26:03 paul0: you can just switch the if's consequent and alternative and remove the not 22:26:29 haha, that's true! 22:28:13 -!- pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:28:48 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-47-61.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Sleeping...] 22:30:33 wtf, i gave 1Gb heap to sbcl, and again heap-exhausted.... 22:30:51 homie: SBCL win32 on win32? 22:31:04 homie: the heap must roughly be twice as much as your working set 22:31:11 no, sbcl cvs latest on debian 22:31:24 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 22:32:07 i'm compiling from the sources, i have the git repo installed with the same 1Gb heap and now use the same arguments to the compiler but the tests fail... 22:32:12 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:32:21 so the git sbcl is fine somehow 22:32:28 and that's what i have now 22:32:52 i was just trying to compile the latest cvs version of sbcl and am perplexed now 22:33:27 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:33:44 i am compiling anew cause i had no /usr/include/ffi headers, which i now copied to there, cause because of a bug in squeez libffi-dev 22:34:37 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 22:35:59 sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has joined #lisp 22:38:05 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:39:06 hmmmm, it seems there was something running in the background, and my heap was loaden maybe, now a second run of the tests succeeded, withouth me having done a recompile or so.... 22:41:57 nickik [~nick@adsl-62-167-134-173.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 22:41:57 -!- Caffeine [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:42:07 Caffeine [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has joined #lisp 22:42:34 -!- Caffeine is now known as Guest75329 22:47:32 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:47:49 -!- sm` [~s@77.29.100.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:48:23 oh man, it was some thread interrupt failing in the tests, and i just killed the test process, but the thread was running in the background uninterrupted 22:50:40 -!- Bronsa [~BRACE@host156-180-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:52:27 binod [~binod@88-134-63-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:30 slime just locked up on me while trying to do simple symbol completion 22:52:37 I hope its not an omen of doom 22:52:50 I've been running with an old slime so I can also work with clojur 22:52:53 clojure 22:53:22 new slimes don't like clojure's swank? 22:53:22 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:53:41 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 22:53:44 it's the other way around 22:53:55 ah 22:53:59 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:54:30 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.49.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:45 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 22:54:52 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 22:55:39 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:29 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:58:05 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@161-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 22:59:46 dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:04 -!- thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:58 astoon [~astoon@92.243.187.229] has joined #lisp 23:02:07 thijso [~thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 23:02:52 -!- sluggo [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:04:05 -!- tmh [6367fbda@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:04:20 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 23:05:35 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:09:46 anyone using Qi? what do you make of it? 23:10:31 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:12:28 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:40 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 23:13:29 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-226-230-252.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:14:34 gonzojive [~red@171.66.86.174] has joined #lisp 23:15:01 I find (star trek) Q to be most exasperating. 23:16:26 pjb: is that a cultural reference? because I have no idea what you're talking about 23:16:31 hi 23:16:33 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:16:47 how can I convert a string holding a function name to a call to that function? 23:16:49 thanks 23:17:17 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@161-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:18:30 Posterdati: FIND-SYMBOL 23:18:37 stassats: wow! 23:18:42 vokoda: I've read about it and recently bought the book on Qi 23:19:02 but have some other lisp books such as LoL to get through first 23:19:10 (apply (find-simbol "supercazzora") parameters-list) 23:19:18 I think it makes a lot of sense 23:19:30 banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.156.182] has joined #lisp 23:19:34 hi 23:19:50 -!- paul0 [~paulogeye@189.114.206.119.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:19:53 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:20:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-122.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:24 stassats: ok, but I have to use caps characters in the string! 23:22:42 stassats: thanks 23:23:02 don't forget to specify package 23:23:24 (apply (find-symbol "SINUSOIDAL-VOLTAGE") (list 1 2 3 4)) 23:23:24 0.14112000805986916d0 23:24:09 :)= 23:24:51 (apply (find-symbol "CLEM:SINUSOIDAL-VOLTAGE") (list 1 2 3 4)) 23:24:54 ok? 23:24:56 no 23:25:09 (find-symbol "SINUSOIDAL-VOLTAGE" "CLEM") 23:25:12 spacebat: yes I'm intrigued by it. there's a good looking book on the Qi website, think I'm going to start working through 23:25:14 ah ok 23:25:32 stassats: tx, and what about uppercase conversion? 23:25:34 and expect rage from modern-mode users 23:26:12 Posterdati: but why are your function names in strings, again? 23:26:31 paul0 [~paulogeye@189.114.202.204.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:26:41 stassats: because I'm reading a text file with models name into lists 23:26:59 stassats: models are coded in the Lisp program 23:27:22 vokoda: tarver since Qi v2 has been distilling his ideas to a minimil set of primitives, calling that Shen and looking at implementing them on top of other languages 23:29:12 stassats: please look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/118342#1 23:29:51 stassats: in the second paste there is the netlist representation of an electrical circuit 23:30:16 stassats: in which a component could have a complex model description 23:31:01 Pursuit [~josh@host-067-131-054-207.dhcp.fewpb.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:12 stassats: (string-upcase "antani") 23:32:16 lisp doesn't lost precision when using ratios? 23:32:35 no 23:32:47 pnq [~nick@ACA22624.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:52 I've made some tests using floating points and ratios, and got different results 23:33:06 so, when using ratios, you always get the correct values 23:33:14 paul0: Depends. Ratios such as 1/3 never lose precision. But floats such as 0.333 can. 23:33:25 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:33:31 paul0: no, you get the results you gave it 23:34:06 vokoda, i had a look at qi a while ago, it seems pretty sensible i think, but i haven't used it 23:34:10 stassats: 0.333333333333333 => 0.33333334 23:34:32 Hexstream: is it an incorrect value? 23:34:52 It's not intuitively "the ratio you gave it". Which is what he was talking about, I think. 23:35:15 spacebat: yes I saw something about that on the newsgroup, sounds interesting but I don't really know enough about it to comment 23:35:22 and what you showed me is a float, not a ratio 23:35:39 vokoda: me neither really, perhaps once I get into the book :) 23:35:42 hum 23:36:14 stassats: I don't think he's aware of the difference between ratios and floats in Common Lisp, else he wouldn't be asking these things. 23:38:01 Ah, actually I misread him, it seems he was beginning to understand the difference when he asked that. 23:38:14 My apologies. 23:38:21 paul0: do you know rational numbers in mathematics? 23:38:36 Hexstream: I was writing some functions to calculate interest rate, I've accidentally used ratios 23:38:42 that's what RATIONAL type in CL represent 23:39:15 That's an happy accident ;) 23:39:17 it is precise, but correctness depends on whether you feed it the correct values 23:39:22 just got curious, our banks are probably using floats instead of ratios, so I wouldn't get the right results 23:39:38 Good morning everyone! 23:39:39 banks use base 10 floats 23:39:41 You can "accidentally" perform all the calculations with ratios for absolute precision and then format the result as a float at the end. 23:39:50 which are a bit different 23:39:58 morning beach 23:40:02 Hexstream: yup, but that changes the result anyways 23:40:07 morning beach 23:40:24 paul0: Why wouldn't you want absolute precision, besides for performance?... 23:40:25 I wrote a mandelbrot viewer 2 years ago and it was really really slow 23:40:52 paul0: base 10 floats behave differently than base 2 floats, which is what you have normally. 23:40:54 Hexstream: just got curious about lisp ratios 23:40:55 And maybe a sort of "bug-compatibility" with another system. 23:41:07 spacebat: good thing there's Moore's law 23:41:09 trace revealed that it was using rationals, ratios of very large integers 23:41:16 prxq: banks really use base 10 floats? 23:41:18 :) 23:41:28 paul0: i think so 23:41:31 -!- afilatun [~user@modemcable186.37-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:37 -!- Pursuit [~josh@host-067-131-054-207.dhcp.fewpb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:41:38 at least for a lot of things. 23:42:01 that's when I learned about declare 23:42:07 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 23:42:09 Hexstream: I've seen something like this in Ruby, but when you divide 1 by 2 you get 2. In lisp I've got 1/2 23:42:34 stassats: my prog should output work in progress percentage without flush the repl, how can I do? 23:42:46 stassats: thanks 23:42:49 paul0: So ruby treats integer + integer as having an integer result, like many other likes like C... 23:42:50 Posterdati: force-output? 23:43:04 many other languages like C* 23:43:06 stassats: wait, what is it? 23:43:26 read the clhs entry on it 23:43:29 paul0: I can't see how you can possibly get 2 when you divide 1 by 2. 23:43:39 Hexstream: at least you can enforce numbers to be rational, Rational(1,2) returns 1/2 (Rational class number) 23:43:51 stassats: thanks 23:43:52 Yeah, I think he meant you'd get 1 23:44:05 beach: inferior languages use inferior mathematics 23:44:08 Or else Ruby has hopeless semantics ;P 23:45:09 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:45:22 beach: No, you can't get 2 by dividing 1 by 2. But you usually get 0, in most of programming languages 23:45:26 there's a nasty trick that ruby can play on you, its easy to get a number that compares as less than the literal of that number 23:45:46 I guess it goes something like: 1 divided by 2 is 1.5, and we use the "usual convention" of rounding .5 to the next integer. 23:46:03 so you get 12 or what? 23:46:18 paul0: you get 0 in ruby (: 23:46:30 Uh, what am I saying! 1 divided by 2 is 0.5, which rounds to 1. (WTF) 23:46:41 it does 23:46:51 ruby-1.9.2-p0 > 1/2 23:46:52 => 0 23:47:02 but they'd truncate instead of round 23:47:09 Why are we discussing Ruby semantics here? 23:47:15 -!- sea4ever is now known as ^flying-high^{se 23:47:20 -!- ^flying-high^{se is now known as ^flying-high^ 23:47:21 some say ruby is an acceptable lisp 23:47:22 lol 23:47:28 It isn't. 23:47:29 I was just comparing (to a language which I am used to) 23:47:31 I was wondering what the hell was going on here 23:47:36 beach: because they show a trend in broken number handling all across non-lisp languages 23:47:54 antifuchs: This is news? 23:48:10 Ruby AFAIR is very opaque when evaling code. Which doesn't make it much of an acceptable lisp. 23:48:17 it is to some 23:48:18 anyways, (/ 1 2) returning 1/2 is a really bug-proof behavior 23:48:21 spacebat: An acceptable lisp without macros? Haha... 23:48:21 beach: it's a useful example to use when explaining it to somebody who asks about useful number handling (: 23:48:32 one needs to bash regularly other languages to reinforce and justify the commitment to Lisp 23:48:36 antifuchs: Granted. 23:48:52 paul0: (/ 1 2) returning 1/2 is the most sensible thing i can imagine 23:49:00 and to steer away from cognitive dissonances 23:49:36 it is funny that rationals is one place where an infix notation is allowed 23:49:55 ? 23:50:03 spacebat: only for / 23:50:07 yes 23:50:23 Not sure if that "counts" as infix. 1/2 is to be taken as a single entity. 23:50:43 kindof an operator at the reader level 23:50:53 spacebat: infix is not forbidden. Juts not supported. There is an infix package that gives very good infix notation. 23:51:10 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:51:10 drdo: it could return 2^(-1) 23:51:18 lol 23:51:38 spacebat: except it's not an operator (it doesn't actually perform division) (: 23:51:46 stassats: It could return a lot of things 23:52:04 awesome, (expt 2 -1) returns 1/2 23:52:19 and there's no precedence and stuff. if it's infix notation, it's a very crippled notation (: 23:52:29 (or rather, a very crippled algebra (-:) 23:52:38 paul0: Rationals are conveniently canonicalized. 2/4 => 1/2 23:53:13 or ½ 23:53:16 Hexstream: there's any function to convert 0.5 to a rational value? 23:53:25 RATIONAL 23:53:34 lol 23:53:48 See also: RATIONALIZE 23:54:07 thanks! 23:54:09 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.244.143.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:40 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:54:48 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:54:49 Beware, though: (rational 0.33333333333333333) => 11184811/33554432 23:54:54 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:55:04 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:04 tritchey [~tritchey@74-92-190-254-Indianapolis.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:17 stassats: Kickass!! I didn't know about that. 23:55:25 whoa 23:55:39 And it was right on the page o_o 23:56:06 wait 23:56:14 <_danb_> I wasn't following the above discussion to heavily but in ruby you can do Rational(2)/4 => (1/2) and Rational(0.33333333333) => .../... 23:56:24 (rational (/ 1 3.0)) => 11184811/33554432 23:56:36 (rationalize (/ 1 3.0)) => 1/3 23:57:17 paul0: Is that surprising to you?... 23:57:28 I still don't like the idea that floats with limited precision and accuracy are the default when you input something like 0.333 23:57:59 Hexstream: yup, I've thought that lisp had a "problem" for two seconds, and then found the solution 23:58:40 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.86.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:59:03 drdo: it would be much nicer if 0.something read as rational numbers 23:59:11 antifuchs: yep 23:59:26 drdo: but then, it's a point of compatibility with ieee float 23:59:34 which is a nice thing, too 23:59:42 antifuchs: also, that is less practical than it looks at first. 23:59:44 antifuchs: You can still support ieee float, just don't make that the default 23:59:51 drdo: I guess it was decided that "typical" floating point performance, with all the usual, "intuitive" problems, was better than more accuracy. 23:59:53 yeah, I was worried about that when lisp was using rationals by default