00:00:24 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:09 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:03:27 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:09 -!- eut [~m@cpe-24-24-136-239.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:09:25 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:09:49 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.13.188] has quit [Quit: (getting late here)] 00:09:51 -!- Axioplas1_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 00:09:57 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 00:11:16 peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has joined #lisp 00:12:30 dostoyevsky [~sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 00:16:31 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:58 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has joined #lisp 00:17:00 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:26 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has left #lisp 00:17:29 -!- dostoyevsky [~sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:17:52 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:18:50 dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 00:19:21 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:20:39 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839C90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:21:20 peth_ [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has joined #lisp 00:21:53 -!- peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:21:58 -!- peth_ is now known as peth 00:24:38 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-90-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26:38 -!- beach [~user@116.118.46.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:28:19 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.12.110] has joined #lisp 00:28:41 -!- fds_ is now known as fds 00:28:58 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 00:29:12 -!- peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has quit [] 00:30:07 if i want to group two lists (3 x) (4 x) to give me a new list of (7 x) 00:30:15 how would i go about doing it 00:30:32 ? 00:32:35 there are an infinity of ways to do that 00:32:58 you need to specify what exactly you want to be done 00:33:02 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-119-173.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:33:13 say i have a list 00:33:52 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:58 e.g. (1 (2 x) (3 x) ) 00:34:24 i want a funtion to evuate like terms 00:34:29 evaluate* 00:34:42 so = (1 (5 x)) 00:35:21 quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:48 revel: define evaluate, like, and terms. 00:35:49 :P 00:35:59 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:56 like terms: (2 x) (3 x) - share the same letter as the second atom in the list 00:40:49 astoon [~astoon@92.243.187.229] has joined #lisp 00:40:49 evaluate: adds the values together 00:41:02 e.g. (2 x) (3 x) = (5 x) 00:41:44 How do you "examine" a function defined in clisp runtime to examine said code in question? (Apologies if this question irks regulars) 00:42:29 ...google isn't helping as I'm not asking the right question apparently 00:42:30 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:42:34 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:42:57 bitflip: If you're using slime, M-. should take you to the definition. 00:42:59 bitflip: M-.? 00:43:06 revel: (sum-terms (loop for letter in (free-vars-in equation) (sum-terms (remove-if-not (lambda (x) (eq letter x)) equation :key 'cadr)))) 00:43:09 revel: for example. 00:43:30 replace the inner sum-terms with something that actually merges the terms 00:43:36 ah - missing slime. Guess I'll get that integrated. Thank you. 00:43:48 bitflip: You're using emacs, though? 00:43:50 -!- EarlGray [~EarlGray@79.124.132.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:44:02 revel: also stick a 'collecting' before it 00:44:14 sellout: yes 00:44:15 timor [~timor@port-92-195-90-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:44:19 *Ralith* is terrible at writing code into irssi >.< 00:44:46 bitflip: best way to get slime is using quicklisp  (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper")  or something. And I think that tells you what line to add to your .emacs file, too. 00:45:12 sellout: appreciate it. I'll explore from here, thanks again! 00:45:55 MrElendig [~oh@pdpc/supporter/active/mrelendig] has joined #lisp 00:46:11 -!- devn_ is now known as devn 00:46:34 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:47:17 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:06 dostoyevsky [sck@195.49.138.42] has joined #lisp 00:50:32 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:52:15 -!- revel [~revel@host86-129-86-251.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:53:28 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.14.211] has joined #lisp 00:54:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:55:00 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:55:25 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@195.49.138.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:55:46 dostoyevsky [~sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 00:56:29 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.6.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:57:26 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:00:19 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 01:00:43 kanru [~kanru@118-160-160-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:22 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-90-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:04:06 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 01:06:51 timor [~timor@port-92-195-90-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:07:44 -!- Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-34-51.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:08:09 -!- dostoyevsky [~sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:08:48 -!- quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:08:48 -!- astoon [~astoon@92.243.187.229] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:09:36 dostoyevsky [~sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 01:10:16 quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:40 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@81.214.240.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:44 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:16:07 -!- xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:17:57 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-90-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:10 revel [~revel@host86-129-86-251.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:17 is there any way to compare against nil 01:18:29 *Axioplase_* installed quicklisp yesterday. Started coding and immediately felt glory tickling his feet. 01:18:37 Xach: <3 01:18:38 revel: sure. 01:18:42 if (listp '(1 2 3)) NIL) 01:18:44 doesn't work 01:18:54 syntax error 01:18:58 how? 01:19:00 revel: (null list) 01:19:34 revel: and become you lack the opening bracket before "if" 01:20:48 (and also, your expression will *always* return nil, so this does not do what you intended) 01:21:13 ok ill tell you what i want to achieve 01:21:45 using the listp function 01:22:03 I want to determine if an element is a list or not 01:22:19 and to do different things dependiong on 01:22:21 I got 01:22:27 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-185-64.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:22:48 LISTP *is* a predicate that tells you if its argument is a list or not. 01:22:49 (if (null (listp element)) (do....) (else....)) 01:23:05 what's going on here? 01:23:35 (listp 1) -> nil. (listp nil) ->t (listp '(1 2)) -> t 01:23:37 yes 01:23:47 revel: swap your clauses and ditch the null bit. 01:23:48 but (listp 99) for example returns nil 01:23:52 (if (listp else) (else ) (do)) 01:24:01 And, believe it or not, "t" and "nil" are two boolean values 01:24:09 ohh 01:24:16 I'm being very stupid 01:24:19 :) 01:24:28 sellout: thanks for info, think I'm on the right track now 01:24:34 -!- bitflip [~user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:24:38 that's why it's a predicate, why it has a "p" at the end of its name. 01:24:40 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:24:58 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-160-160-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:25:09 -!- fds [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:25:09 fds [~frankie@fsf/member/fds] has joined #lisp 01:25:45 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:58 (defun dispatch (x) (if (listp x) "this is a list!" "this is not a list")) 01:26:21 -!- dostoyevsky [~sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:33 easy as cake 01:26:58 dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 01:27:39 in fact, too easy to be asked in #lisp 01:29:34 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:30:23 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:30:45 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 01:31:36 xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has joined #lisp 01:32:50 Axioplase_: so in reality, "lisp" means "lis predicate" 01:32:50 quek: I have two questions about simple-date-time: I installed it yesesterday, and it has a symbol "weak-of". Isn't it supposed to be "week-of"? Also, do you plan to add a way to get the date in RFC-822 format? 01:33:51 Phoodus: I guess it would read "is it a lis?" if you said "lis-pee". But you don't, so no. 01:34:04 revel: You might want to check this out: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 01:34:19 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:34:47 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:36:07 necroforest [~jarred@pool-108-28-161-172.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:18 -!- xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has left #lisp 01:36:24 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:33 -!- dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:39:03 dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:33 dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 01:39:51 chopwood [~chopwood@c-24-63-111-251.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:10 mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 01:42:32 _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:43:47 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:48 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 01:43:59 -!- _danb_ is now known as _dnb_ 01:45:04 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 01:46:59 jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has joined #lisp 01:46:59 -!- jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has quit [Changing host] 01:46:59 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:52:13 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:52:40 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:53:15 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:52 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-214-50.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:56:50 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:57:34 Axioplase_: It is *week-of*, thanks. I do not have a plan to add RFC-822 currently. 02:01:29 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:06:59 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:08:32 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:09:24 -!- quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 02:09:43 incandenza__ [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:51 -!- incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:09:56 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 02:10:17 -!- incandenza [~quassel@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:10:54 quek: Well, RFC822 might be useful, and it would still be "simple". If you do not plan to add it yourself, I may send you a patch for it when I have time (for I need it myself). 02:11:52 incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:51 if I have an if statement 02:18:58 and i want it to return true 02:19:07 what do i write in the do part 02:19:08 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:19:35 (if (listp '(1 2) (t) (f))?? 02:19:54 an if form is not a statement 02:20:05 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 02:20:10 i tried (return t) 02:20:19 <_3b> did you try t? 02:20:29 t =t 02:20:32 t = true 02:20:33 * 02:21:02 I want to return the boolean value True 02:21:21 try reading a book.. hurling incantations at the REPL and expecting something to happen isn't going to work 02:21:35 revel: anything not "nil" is a truth value. 02:21:48 If you want specifically "true", then the symbol "t" is what you want 02:22:00 adeht: I'm reading many 02:22:10 read one, and read it well. 02:22:26 revel: concentrate on one 02:22:47 a Lisp book, preferably 02:25:32 sourcerer [~sea@205.244.150.231] has joined #lisp 02:27:11 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.197] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:28:39 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:28:53 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:31:17 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:55 -!- s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:32:16 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 02:32:57 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@19.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:38:00 DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:38:00 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 02:38:00 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 02:38:22 redline6561 [~user@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:38 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 02:39:39 myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:44:57 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #lisp 02:46:02 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 02:50:23 GeorgeSebastian [~georgeSeb@218.248.84.89] has joined #lisp 02:55:11 -!- _dnb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:57:45 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 03:06:53 evening #lispers 03:07:50 yonatan_ [~yonatan@46-116-152-197.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 03:08:49 -!- heloehlo_ [~bfouts@24.30.125.111] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:09:13 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:09:50 How would I run a lisp program from a terminal using sbcl? I'm trying using '--script foo.lisp' but it exits. I guess it is something with the fact that it's a GTK+ program and CL-GTK2 runs the GTK+ main thread in another thread, although I confess this is a really wild guess. 03:10:24 It might me something completely different. 03:11:11 You can't just do 'sbcl ' ? 03:11:32 sea4ever: Hum... 03:11:38 didi: you may want to join that thread 03:11:43 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-109-67-206-205.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:15 didi: cl-gtk2 has within-main-loop-and-wait 03:12:30 sea4ever: Didn't work. 03:12:35 adeht: I'll try it. 03:13:17 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-204-63.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:14:40 adeht: Almost there. Now it loaded it, a window pop and the program exited. 03:15:48 Also, I must be doing something wrong. It's taking about 20s to load. 03:16:19 didi: the implementation of w-m-l-a-w looks kinda silly.. it uses a condition to wait (instead of just joining the thread), but the way it does wouldn't behave right in the face of spurious wakeups 03:16:43 "labels" is kind of "flet" but lets you use previously defined functions in the next ones... what's the "labels" of "let"? 03:17:32 Caffeine: let* 03:17:36 Caffeine: letrec? 03:17:50 adeht: I'll try something like '(gtk:gtk-main)'. 03:18:04 argh, letrec is Scheme 03:18:32 And I didn't read properyl the question 03:19:07 adeht: thanks, it works.. didn't even think of it.. it's like in scheme : 03:19:30 Yay, '(gtk:gtk-main)' worked. But now I have the 20s problem to solve. 03:19:59 didi: you may want to dump an image with cl-gtk2 already loaded 03:20:33 adeht: That would be great. Do you have any directions to give? 03:20:43 didi: what implementation are you using? 03:20:48 adeht: SBCL. 03:21:01 didi: check the manual, it's sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 03:21:09 adeht: Thanks. 03:22:32 adeht: Would the image work at other architectures beside mine (x86 x x86_64, for example)? 03:23:21 didi: I don't know, but I guess it will work if you use the same sbcl binaries 03:23:39 adeht: OK. Thank you. 03:31:10 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:34:12 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:05 caffeine: The 'labels' of let is let + setf. 03:35:48 (let (a b c) (setf a (lambda () (+ b 1)) b (lambda () (+ c 1)) c (lambda () (+ a 1))) ...) 03:36:37 let* doesn't produce the correct scoping behaviour to qualify in general. 03:37:05 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:38:13 But it does work if you can topographically sort the bindings. 03:38:43 -!- skeptomai [~cb@ip65-47-31-86.z31-47-65.customer.algx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:39:29 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-135.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:41:34 when i use (gethash name *hash-table*) it prints NIL to the terminal, how do i stop this? 03:42:42 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jdyoacomdwphsgpe] has joined #lisp 03:42:55 b14ck [~b14ck@cpe-72-129-70-245.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:43:05 -!- revel [~revel@host86-129-86-251.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:43:07 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:43:17 *b14ck* pokes fds 03:44:28 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:45:40 Hey b14ck :-) 03:46:23 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:48:42 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:49:31 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:55:44 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:09 dberg [~user@c-98-234-179-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:39 -!- MrElendig [~oh@pdpc/supporter/active/mrelendig] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:01:13 csmax_ [~max@p5790FBF8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:40 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:04:52 -!- csmax [~max@p5DE8EE16.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:05:35 oconnore [~eric@50.10.172.212] has joined #lisp 04:06:15 -!- oconnore [~eric@50.10.172.212] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:21:04 -!- qfr [void@cpc1-stap2-0-0-cust293.12-2.cable.virginmedia.com.siyobik.info] has quit [Changing host] 04:21:04 qfr [void@unaffiliated/yw] has joined #lisp 04:22:14 Tril [tril@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 04:27:36 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:39 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:31:58 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:32:33 wander [18834afa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.131.74.250] has joined #lisp 04:33:43 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 04:34:00 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F247.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:35:58 -!- sourcerer [~sea@205.244.150.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:36:28 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!] 04:38:10 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:39:36 joshcheek [~josh@ip72-205-240-98.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:02 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:40:37 az [~az@p5796C231.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:00 pinkwerks [~pinkwerks@cpe-74-68-129-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:06 peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has joined #lisp 04:41:41 Hi, I am trying to debug a macro, but getting confused. Is there a way to get it to show me the expansion? ie something akin to gcc's -E flag? 04:42:43 joshcheek:have you tired (expand-macro) ? 04:42:51 macroexpand-1 04:42:58 oops (macroexpand 04:43:01 hahha thx 04:43:26 if you're using slime you can C-c RET on the beginning of the form 04:44:02 balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:33 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has joined #lisp 04:45:26 _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:45:38 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 04:46:02 pinkwerks: adeht: Thank you, that is what I was looking for. 04:52:28 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:53:13 -!- wander [18834afa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.131.74.250] has quit [] 04:54:07 wanderingelf [18834afa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.131.74.250] has joined #lisp 04:54:12 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:23 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:04:53 -!- pinkwerks [~pinkwerks@cpe-74-68-129-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:14:53 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:16:23 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:18:13 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jdyoacomdwphsgpe] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:20:13 -!- X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has left #lisp 05:21:12 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B327824.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:51 -!- xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.14.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:21:59 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:25 xinming [~hyy@115.221.14.211] has joined #lisp 05:23:03 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.122.167] has joined #lisp 05:23:58 eut [~m@cpe-24-24-136-239.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:24:41 -!- daniel [~daniel@p50829EFB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:26:19 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: night] 05:26:41 -!- myu2 [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:26:43 myu2_ [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:37:25 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: bombshelter13b] 05:50:59 -!- GeorgeSebastian [~georgeSeb@218.248.84.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:54:54 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.77.127] has quit [Quit: ] 05:58:24 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 05:58:42 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jlcwygjvmqrmxund] has joined #lisp 06:01:45 xscroll [~user@184-76-24-220.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:25 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.163.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:06:29 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:08:21 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.175.19] has joined #lisp 06:09:04 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 06:11:11 -!- jomat [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:11:54 jomat [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has joined #lisp 06:13:36 -!- wanderingelf [18834afa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.131.74.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:14:18 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 06:17:55 flabbula [~roentogan@c-98-247-253-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:13 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:56 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:19:57 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:20:21 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:45 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:18 gonzojive1 [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:41 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:25:17 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:25:25 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:29:16 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:34:39 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:35:26 pinkwerks [~pinkwerks@cpe-74-68-129-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:36:15 is there a cl built-in similar to the unix `wc -l`? (file-length gives me bytes and i'm looking for number of newlines. 06:36:51 No. Count them. 06:37:07 so open and loop with read-line? 06:37:22 Well, read-char would do, but if you like wasting memory, sure. 06:37:41 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-hcftgmowjsyvimbs] has joined #lisp 06:37:41 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-hcftgmowjsyvimbs] has quit [Changing host] 06:37:41 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:39:10 i thought memory was cheap? ;) basically i wanna print a random line from a txt file so i need to get the length for (file-position, was just wondering if i was going about it the easy way 06:39:34 Well, you should have said that in the first place. 06:39:46 And you don't need to know the length. 06:39:54 please tell 06:41:03 replace the picked line if a random number from 0 to N+1 where N is the number of lines seen so far is < 1. 06:41:47 This will have selected a line with a uniform distribution from the lines seen so far. 06:41:57 Stop whenever you like (probably when you run out of lines). 06:42:21 interesting algorithm - and it's not biased? 06:42:27 No. 06:42:36 coolness, now that's a nuget 06:42:42 s/g/gg 06:43:03 But feel free to test it to be comfortable. 06:43:28 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:43:33 yah luckily this isn't for rocket science to mars 06:43:36 Histogramming it for integers would be a reasonable test. 06:43:51 Well, you also want to make sure you implemented it correctly. 06:44:36 where you pick that one up? 06:44:44 if you don't need it to be completely unbiased, a more efficient way is just to take a random position in the file (between 0 and file-length) and pick the line that is there 06:45:12 mal__: thx but the idea you could avoid counting the lines is pretty cool 06:45:29 Well, you are counting the lines with my suggestion. 06:45:41 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@203.213.202.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:51 yeah, but either i count them up front, figuring out the newlines our count as i go right? 06:46:02 It's just an incremental approach. 06:46:36 You can also use that to select multiple lines in one pass. 06:47:29 As to where I saw it, I don't know. It's a fairly standard approach. 06:48:52 well standard to some heh. what's the variation for multiple lines? is it extensible to N random matches? 06:49:28 Well, what you are doing is determining the probability that the next line should be in the result set. 06:50:07 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:50:12 If you have a larger result set then the probability of inclusion is larger -- adjust < 1 to N. 06:50:18 er < N. 06:51:00 And start replacing when your result set gets full. 06:51:17 <_3b> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservoir_sampling 06:51:21 you have enlightened me a little bit thanks! 06:51:44 Welcome. Please learn how to use punctuation. 06:52:00 Will do. 06:53:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04:48 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:43 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.122.167] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:08:05 -!- joshcheek [~josh@ip72-205-240-98.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Quit: joshcheek] 07:09:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:09:19 joshcheek [~josh@ip72-205-240-98.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:09:38 -!- joshcheek [~josh@ip72-205-240-98.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:11:55 kanen [~kanen@c-69-181-21-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:27 beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@ip174-68-69-137.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:07 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 07:17:07 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:17:07 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:18:00 -!- dberg [~user@c-98-234-179-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:18:07 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:44 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA3270B.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:19:46 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:19:46 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:19:46 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:20:26 jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-36-33.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:23:14 -!- beerTRUCKz [~beerTRUCK@ip174-68-69-137.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: end of line.] 07:23:47 Does CFFI automatically search for libraries in "/usr/local/lib/"? 07:24:04 I thought it did, but I had to push it to cffi:*foreign-library-directories* 07:24:24 *into 07:24:27 *_3b* thought it just asked the system to search by default, don't know if that is normally on the system search or not 07:24:57 Seems it's not on Ubuntu. 07:25:11 Works fine on OS X though. 07:26:21 <_3b> /etc/ld.so.conf.d/libc.conf on my ubuntu system suggests it should be 07:26:38 Strange... 07:26:43 <_3b> might need to rebuild caches if it is something recently installed by hand 07:27:01 probably that then. 07:30:00 yep, it was that, a hur hur... >.< 07:37:20 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:38:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-36-33.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: Rebooting... unexpected static.] 07:43:11 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:46:22 amb007 [~a_bakic@19.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:22 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:48:33 Good morning 07:48:47 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:49:08 good morning 07:57:13 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Ping 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[~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 08:53:27 ZabaQ [~Zaba@43.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:06 -!- sm` [~s@77.29.20.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:57:12 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 09:00:38 -!- dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dakeyras] 09:01:48 sm` [~s@77.29.101.21] has joined #lisp 09:06:35 -!- balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:10:44 -!- myu2_ [~myu2@58x5x224x106.ap58.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:13:13 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:13:23 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:13:36 aoeu [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:29 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:14:58 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 09:16:30 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:16:51 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:17:53 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 09:18:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@iburst-41-213-36-33.iburst.co.za] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:19:03 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1CD5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:22 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@124.76.12.110] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:23:07 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:24:58 Axioplase_: patch is welcome! thank you. 09:26:09 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-161-228.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:57 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 09:28:24 I added to automatically asdf load and use iterate in my sbclrc, but as expected I get some conflicts between ITERATE:WHILE, COMMON-LISP-USER::WHILE which I am presented an option to resolve 09:28:30 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:28:59 but what was the way to have that automated in sbclrc without interaction? 09:31:21 set up a handler using handler-bind and invoke the restart you want using invoke-restart? 09:31:52 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:20 you also should hook into the particular repl you're using 09:32:30 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:34:17 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:35:35 adhet: ok, I thought there was something specific to sbcl like (... with-conflicting-name-resolution ... or similar :) 09:37:00 dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:38:48 maybe there is, but I don't know about it 09:41:55 -!- hdurer`` is now known as hdurer_office 09:42:05 -!- hdurer_office [~hdurer@lo4.cfw-a-gci.london.yahoo.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:42:05 hdurer_office [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 09:45:14 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-105-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:14 -!- johs_ is now known as johs 09:49:16 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 09:49:57 francogrex: did you find out eventually why you couldn't build sbcl a few days back? the header file mismatch thing... 09:51:09 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:53:28 really wish there was an "edit this broken file in emacs" restart 09:53:38 attila_lendvai: yes it's solved. Because I was requesting to remove #\return in src/code/stream.lisp and the host-target interaction doesn't like #\return character so I had to use char-code 13 09:54:15 that's because I want to solve the annoying crlf on windows files. Now it works nicely 09:54:44 hrm, then this is a different issue.. but thanks! 09:56:11 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:14 attila_lendvai: yes it seems now I wasn't sure what header file mismatch I don't recall very well... :) 09:56:41 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:57:34 someone checked out my sbcl branch from dwim.hu and had the same (similar?) mismatch issue, but I couldn't reproduce 09:59:44 it tells me something vaguely but I can't recall very well the issue - head clutterd after holiday binging :) - but now both ECL and sbcl installations finally work like a swiss clock thank goodness 10:00:02 -!- aoeu is now known as quek_ 10:01:13 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.97.49] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:06:40 H4ns` [~user@p579F8F37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:20 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:09:56 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9E7F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 10:14:34 beach [~user@116.118.46.79] has joined #lisp 10:15:09 It appears to be legal for *print-pprint-dispatch* to be nil 10:16:26 Good evening everyone! 10:16:50 evening 10:20:15 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:20:22 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:20:25 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:20:53 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-ofukypvyxbnsoumg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:04 -!- quek_ [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Quit: Riece/7.0.2 Emacs/23.2 (gnu/linux)] 10:21:06 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-ldvpwkfccalizxwj] has joined #lisp 10:21:17 -!- quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 10:22:13 tfb_ [~tfb@92.41.44.3.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:22:17 quek_ [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:02 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:30 I think my question is - is there an implementation independent way to create an empty pprint dispatch table? 10:24:00 -!- tfb_ [~tfb@92.41.44.3.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:27:13 tfb_ [~tfb@92.41.44.3.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:27:39 -!- tfb_ is now known as tfb 10:30:45 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-ldvpwkfccalizxwj] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:30:59 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 10:31:00 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-sktgtseqporzlfpf] has joined #lisp 10:31:19 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.44.3.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 10:31:49 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:31:53 tfb [~tfb@92.41.44.3.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:32:11 another annoying "style" question: when asdf'ing how do you avoid printing these: loading system definition from ... is there like an option :verbose nil ? 10:32:41 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 10:32:52 You'll need to re-bin *standard-output* around the asdf-calls 10:33:28 I see in quicklisp instaed of these there is a nicer interface ... I would like something like that 10:33:53 flip214: how do you do that exactly? you have an example? 10:34:18 (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream))) (asdf:oos ...)) IIRC 10:38:42 leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has joined #lisp 10:38:52 francogrex: there is an option in asdf like :verbose nil 10:38:59 francogrex: it is called: :verbose nil 10:38:59 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:28 xach: strangely enough ! :) 10:39:49 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 10:42:59 works 10:43:16 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:43:39 -!- francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:44:16 vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 10:46:16 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:47:13 -!- b14ck [~b14ck@cpe-72-129-70-245.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:48:10 heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:32 (make-pprint-dispatch-table) seems to be a good bet 10:48:52 b14ck [~b14ck@cpe-72-129-70-245.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:50:02 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:58:22 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:00:14 -!- xscroll [~user@184-76-24-220.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:04:07 carlocci [~nes@93.37.192.127] has joined #lisp 11:06:16 -!- quek_ [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:12 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@43.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:10:40 ZabaQ [~Zaba@43.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:56 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 11:12:25 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 11:14:00 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:20:12 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:21:34 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22:09 xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has joined #lisp 11:22:10 -!- X-02 [~kohei@p2009-ipbf407kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: IRCStep] 11:23:28 twem2` [~tristan@puma-mxisp.mxtelecom.com] has joined #lisp 11:24:45 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has joined #lisp 11:25:10 am I asking badly formed questions? 11:25:56 ZabaQ: I do not have the CL knowledge to help you, but I'm interested in the answer too. 11:26:09 ZabaQ: I don't think pretty-printing is something a lot of people here tweak. 11:26:19 ZabaQ: I certainly have only done a very little bit and not very often. 11:28:13 ZabaQ: I can answer your question about Climacs. It is still around. It still works, but it has some problems that should be fixed. Nobody is maintaining it at the moment. 11:29:53 ZabaQ: what's make-pprint-dispatch-table? 11:30:22 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jlcwygjvmqrmxund] has left #lisp 11:30:33 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-144.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:30:56 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-144.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:31:48 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-144.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:54 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-144.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:32:24 stassats: it's ccl specific - the pprint-dispatch-table is a struct in ccl, and I had a ccl specific problem - I spoke of it in #ccl 11:32:30 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:32:48 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-144.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 11:33:15 ZabaQ: so, what is it that you want, a completely empty pprint dispatch table, or a standard pprint dispatch table? 11:33:21 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 11:33:32 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-144.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:33:56 the standard one in ccl appears to default to NIL, so I needed an empty one (make-pprint-dispatch-table) did the job 11:33:59 I think 11:35:07 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-144.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:35:37 ZabaQ: (copy-pprint-dispatch nil) gives you an initial value of *print-pprint-dispatch* 11:36:16 thanks 11:36:31 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-144.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:36:52 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-144.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:37:13 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-144.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:37:37 myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:38:41 and there's a ticket about *print-pprint-dispatch* being NIL http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/784 11:38:47 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:40:16 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:41:13 and another ticket regarding (copy-pprint-dispatch nil) not always working on SBCL: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/678409 11:41:18 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-144.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:41:44 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-30-144.w83-196.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:42:52 ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@213.246.114.89] has joined #lisp 11:44:22 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@43.89-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:46:37 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 11:47:11 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:47:55 jonte 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[~liuhui@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has joined #lisp 12:32:54 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:32:58 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:35:04 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:48 -!- ifaria [~liuhui@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has left #lisp 12:39:17 -!- leth [~user@fsf/member/leth] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:41:54 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:44:13 -!- Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:45:08 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 12:48:14 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:49:49 BillR [43a45d64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.164.93.100] has joined #lisp 12:52:20 hi, why (list 'x 1) gives (x 1), (list 'quote 1) gives '1? 12:52:27 Pepe_ [~ppjet@bouah.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:51 BillR: ' is translated into (QUOTE ) by the reader 12:53:09 or (list 'quote ) 12:55:54 tcr: but then from (list 'quote 1) I should expect (quote 1), which should become 1, not '1, right? 12:55:59 Ralith_ [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 12:56:20 jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:23 BillR: (list 'quote 1) is evaluated to the list (QUOTE 1) 12:56:30 if you evaluate the list (QUOTE 1) again, it will evaluate to 1 12:56:32 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:56:40 i.e. (eval (list 'quote 1)) => 1 12:58:28 ifaria_ [~ifaria@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has joined #lisp 12:58:29 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 12:59:40 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@ubermonkey.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:37 tcr: in interpreter mode, (list 'quote 1) only gets evaled once to (quote 1), or evaled repeatedly until it can't be evaled anymore? 13:01:09 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@p5DD1C062.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:01:13 -!- rhysodidae [~rhysodida@91.207.42.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:01:21 -!- ifaria_ [~ifaria@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has quit [Client Quit] 13:02:01 lambda [~ifaria@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has joined #lisp 13:02:12 Just evaluated once 13:02:31 macros get expanded repeatedly, but their final expansion is again evaluated only once 13:02:38 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:04:20 -!- Ralith_ is now known as Ralith 13:04:44 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:19 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:05:44 -!- lambda [~ifaria@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has quit [Client Quit] 13:06:24 -!- jfm3 [~user@c-98-221-112-35.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:07:24 tcr:thank you 13:07:38 valium97582 [~daniel@187.57.22.152] has joined #lisp 13:08:48 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 13:11:03 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:12:18 -!- sm` [~s@77.29.101.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:12:34 ifaria [~liuhui@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has joined #lisp 13:14:59 rhysodidae [~rhysodida@91.207.42.52] has joined #lisp 13:16:19 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:20:13 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 13:21:02 spacebat [~spacebat@ubermonkey.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:39 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.192.127] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 13:21:46 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 13:24:19 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:26:15 bombshelter13b 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sea4ever [~sea@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 14:42:43 -!- vokoda_ is now known as vokoda 14:44:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-93.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:44:29 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:45:48 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:12 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:53:02 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 14:53:54 younder [~john@9.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:54:38 WonTu [~WonTu@p57B56C49.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:43 -!- ifaria [~liuhui@2001:250:4001:143:222:68ff:fe76:88e4] has left #lisp 14:54:52 -!- WonTu [~WonTu@p57B56C49.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 14:54:54 Well I'm back from X-mas holiday. 14:55:36 (All game theory, no Lisp) 14:56:52 astoon [~astoon@213.87.90.248] has joined #lisp 14:57:01 younder: But there's Mungday tomorrow :) 14:59:30 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 14:59:42 xan_ [~xan@38.Red-80-25-35.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:49 khisanth__ [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-2-234.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:29 -!- khisanth__ is now known as Khisanth 15:04:13 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 15:05:40 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:07:44 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 15:07:55 kanru [~kanru@118-160-160-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:37 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:05 Well I've been in California. (mugday is tuesday) 15:16:01 -!- jobf [~jfranck@c-9fbde555.03-87-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:17:29 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:17:59 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:01 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:19:00 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:19:48 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 15:20:19 mheld [~mheld@74.61.205.248] has joined #lisp 15:23:15 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 15:25:17 wanderingelf [~user@c-24-131-74-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:52 -!- xan_ [~xan@38.Red-80-25-35.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:27:17 -!- BillR [43a45d64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.164.93.100] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:28:10 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.24.75] has joined #lisp 15:28:42 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.91.1] 15:29:19 -!- jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:29:59 1/topic 15:31:33 seejay [~seejay@plexyplanet.org] has joined #lisp 15:31:35 -!- seejay [~seejay@plexyplanet.org] has quit [Changing host] 15:31:35 seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 15:39:12 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:39:34 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:39:41 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 15:40:00 -!- aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:2] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:40:55 aidalgol [aidan@2002:453d:f72::1337:2] has joined #lisp 15:41:07 tmh [6348b02c@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:41:15 Greetings lispers! 15:41:33 tmh: hello! 15:41:33 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-138-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:02 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:42:08 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:28 dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has joined #lisp 15:42:31 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:42:46 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-138-242.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:08 -!- drwho [~drwho@70-13-234-165.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:43:52 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-139-154.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:17 jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:00 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:20 apropos anyone interested in a algorithm for fining the optimum game for two person zero sum games? 15:46:45 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:46:54 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:47:05 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:47:19 -!- flabbula [~roentogan@c-98-247-253-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:47:37 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:49:03 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:49:27 nilly [~nil@c-98-247-253-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:28 like othell or chess 15:51:58 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:27 I thought the optimum was not to play. 15:54:12 Just enumerate all possible board states and all moves that lead from them to board states that include a winning condition. 15:54:43 (And no losing condition, preferably). 15:55:02 There you go. With that approach you'll always play the best possible game. 15:55:10 I think the lesson is pretty clear -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHWjlCaIrQo 15:55:52 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 15:57:04 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-138-242.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:57:31 tmh: But you are always playing The Game. 15:58:18 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:58:26 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:58:50 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:03:15 Well as a introduction i would recommend 'Game theory and strategy' by Philip Straffin 16:04:41 s/i/I/ 16:05:32 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-185-64.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-59.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:07:04 -!- rhysodidae [~rhysodida@91.207.42.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:10:36 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-178-64-243-105.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 16:11:29 -!- timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has left #lisp 16:12:52 -!- jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:14:49 -!- sm` [~s@77.29.101.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:15:33 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 16:19:06 sm` [~s@77.29.102.62] has joined #lisp 16:20:39 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.87.90.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:21:27 rhysodidae [~rhysodida@91.207.42.52] has joined #lisp 16:21:38 jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:48 carlocci [~nes@93.37.192.127] has joined #lisp 16:21:53 revel [~revel@host86-129-86-251.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:10 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:23:41 -!- biTT [~frinnn@i59F608BF.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:24:02 If i want to re assign the parameter's value that are passed in the function, how would i do ite. 16:24:36 (defun test (var) (let var 2)) 16:24:55 revel: If I understand you correctly, use can use SETF for that, but it's generally considered bad form. 16:24:56 revel: Read a book about Lisp to learn how to do that. 16:25:26 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ is a good book 16:25:55 revel: It can help to read code from other people. http://weitz.de/ has a lot of interesting code. 16:27:50 Chapter 6 of Practical Common Lisp on the gigamonkeys site is all about variables. 16:28:03 biTT [~frinnn@i59F63027.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:23 revel: outside (let ...) vars has got other values because let defines another scope for vars 16:28:30 revel: Maybe you want to elaborate on the question a bit? 16:30:45 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 16:32:28 sluggo [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:52 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:36:13 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.97.49] has joined #lisp 16:39:33 Hm. So a friend of mine claims that REPL development doesn't make sense because instead of experimenting I should create test cases. This sounds reasonable. Opinions? 16:40:14 false dichotomy 16:40:22 -!- jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:40:28 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:40:32 cYmen: It might make sense if the REPL was almost exclusively used for testing. That's not how I use the REPL. 16:40:44 You can only test what's already done 16:40:50 cYmen: Do you ever use a command line? 16:40:52 experimenting is to get from 0 to done 16:41:09 tmh: All the time. 16:41:36 cYmen: The REPL is like a command line, but better. 16:42:02 Xach: What do you use it for then? 16:42:30 tcr: Is that actually true? Wouldn't it be helpful to write the tests while getting done so the individual parts will be tested? 16:42:43 cYmen: calling functions, interacting with the results. 16:42:56 tmh: I agree. Yet I never use the "REPL" in python. And now I wonder why. 16:43:04 cYmen: Experimenting means that a lot of stuff you do, you change again and again 16:43:24 HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-140-92.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:24 cYmen: Doesing experimenting imply testing? 16:43:30 Is C-c C-c included in "using the REPL" ? 16:43:31 s/Doesing/Doesn't 16:43:41 I come from a TDD with Java background and am just starting out with Lisp, but already they seem complementary ideas 16:43:48 cYmen: because you're not used to it? i use repl in python all the time 16:44:18 I hate that culture of writing tests for everything 16:44:35 even before encountering REPL I often longed for a Java equivalent 16:44:51 i hate the culture of strict adherence to some fads 16:45:10 It's seriously borderline retarded 16:45:13 cYmen: although it's by no means comparable to the REPL which slime provides 16:45:32 drdo: While I can't claim to write tests for everything, in my libraries with good test coverage, I find that adding new features or refactoring is very easy. Plus, writing tests has helped me hash out interface issues during initial development. 16:45:33 emef0 [~user@wlan086-212.wlan.wwu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:46:17 MrElendig [~oh@pdpc/supporter/active/mrelendig] has joined #lisp 16:46:46 younder: bleh...it's 46$ on amazon 16:47:50 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:48:28 iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 16:48:42 drdo: I tend to view tests as a design and specification tool. Then later they help massively with refactoring 16:49:26 I dread working on untested portions of code, but poorly and over tested code can be as bad (or worse if it gives a false sense of security) 16:53:43 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-sktgtseqporzlfpf] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:55:55 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-lpuzxtujblnquesk] has joined #lisp 16:56:36 c03 [~c03@563446ae.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:56:38 hi 16:56:52 Hello c03 16:57:08 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-lpuzxtujblnquesk] has quit [Client Quit] 16:57:14 newbie question incoming: how do I load a file and it's forms? 16:57:24 c03: the obscurely-named LOAD function. 16:57:31 aye, I found that 16:57:49 Though it doesn't let me use the global function I defined inside it 16:58:12 c03: Then your actual question is something like "How did I screw up defining or invoking my function?" 16:58:12 rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:18 c03: hard to say without seeing the file. 16:58:29 paste.lisp.org is a good place to share the code 16:58:40 (defun hello ()(print "hello world")) 16:58:50 =) 16:59:03 c03: ok, and how did you try to call that function? 16:59:09 (the last line was a smiley, not included) 16:59:14 (hello) 16:59:19 c03: and what happened? 16:59:30 undefined function HELLO 16:59:50 whats a good code paste utility on the web? 17:00:03 pastebin 17:00:17 For Lisp discussion in this channel, use paste.lisp.org. 17:00:18 paste.lisp.org, which was already mentioned a few lines up. 17:00:35 ah yeah sorry 17:00:51 c03: Can you paste a transcript to paste.lisp.org? I can't reproduce that behavior. I created a file called hello.lisp with that form in it, then did (load "hello.lisp), then (hello), and it did what I expected. 17:01:02 err, (load "hello.lisp") 17:01:21 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:25 ahh, there we have the problem 17:01:41 I loaded it in as datamode 17:01:50 What? 17:01:53 like (load '"this is wrong") 17:02:02 it is? 17:02:11 c03: Could you please paste a transcript? 17:02:13 well it didn't work 17:02:24 sure 17:02:25 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.194] has joined #lisp 17:02:36 Hey guys got a problem with this code 17:02:37 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118285 17:02:39 c03: Did you actually quote the string, or is that a typo? 17:02:46 There is either something very weird going on here, or this is tip top high level trolling 17:02:56 getting this error 17:02:56 SYSTEM::%EXPAND-FORM: (SETF (GETHASH 'ITEM *HASH-TABLE*) 17:02:57 I quoted it 17:03:05 revel: Your code makes my eyes burn. 17:03:10 'tis no harm in quoting strings 17:03:19 okay 17:03:27 tmh: whats wrong with it? 17:03:35 revel: Try to get someone to help you privately. Your code is too terrible for everyone to have to read someone struggle to help you. 17:03:39 revel: What's wrong is that it burns people's eyes obviously 17:03:54 revel: I suggest reading a book and reading a lot of code and finding someone extremely generous with their time and patience. 17:04:04 too much comments! 17:04:23 I am reading a book 17:04:30 revel: Read harder. 17:04:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118286 17:04:39 revel: If the code in the book looks like your code, burn the book. 17:04:49 revel: Let me drop the code in a scratch file and correct. I'll annotate. 17:04:53 revel: If not, make your code look like the book's code. 17:05:06 c03: annotate the paste with textengine, please 17:05:21 tmh: cheers 17:05:27 right 17:05:28 -!- Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:05:31 revel: is this your first programming language? 17:05:32 stassats: What are you talking about? Don't you know about comment-driven development? 17:05:48 ZabaQ: no 17:06:05 written some java and python 17:06:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118286#1 17:06:18 finding Lisp hard to get my head around 17:06:18 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-178-64-243-105.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:06:19 paul0 [~paulogeye@189.114.206.119.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:06:34 c03: are you sure that you don't have textengine.fas file? 17:06:56 revel: lots of experimenting at the repl would be best 17:06:59 .fas? 17:07:17 if you want to be sure to load textengine.lisp, write (load "textengine.lisp") 17:07:28 -!- MrElendig [~oh@pdpc/supporter/active/mrelendig] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:08:04 stassats: (hello) is still undefined 17:08:08 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-149-192.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 17:08:26 -!- rmarianski is now known as rmar|lunch 17:08:38 MrElendig [~oh@pdpc/supporter/active/mrelendig] has joined #lisp 17:08:49 are you sure that the file is in the same directory from where you run clisp? 17:09:07 Are you sure your computer is turned on? 17:09:22 drdo: Go away. 17:09:28 c03: When you evaluate (load "foo") the Lisp system will load a compiled file, called something like foo.fasl or foo.fas if it exists. That file is the compiled form of foo.lisp. 17:09:48 reb`: it _may_ load 17:09:52 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118287 17:09:53 better? 17:10:01 c03: By writing (load "foo.lisp") you ensure that foo.lisp is loaded. 17:10:11 stassats: Yes, sorry. 17:10:12 the usual first reaction to odd things happening is to clean the fasls 17:10:28 revel: and the last parenthesis too 17:10:31 it's a bit like the full-build-fairy 17:10:42 it's definitely loading it 17:10:47 revel: What problem are you having? 17:10:47 ;; Loading file textengine.lisp ... 17:10:48 ;; Loaded file textengine.lisp 17:11:06 drdo: 7th line down 17:11:08 it gives me an error if I try to load a non-existing file 17:11:08 revel: Look at this -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/118285#1 17:11:11 revel: Also, what is that parenthesis after the let? 17:12:09 Also, you are trying to use + on a symbol 17:12:39 drdo: ah that is the problem 17:12:54 (append ?? 17:13:00 fmeyer [~fmeyer@li212-47.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:13:08 revel: ... and also, where you have 'item you probably want just item. 17:13:33 I want to retrieve the hash value, and add to it the new value (+=) 17:13:33 and also, use INCF 17:13:44 -!- peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has left #lisp 17:13:50 and also, don't name the parameter "lis", name it "list" 17:14:22 revel: The comments you had were useless because they simply described what the code was doing. A useful comment would have been describing the intent of the function. 17:14:48 revel: What is that function supposed to do? 17:15:22 revel: Evern more useful would be to include the description of the function in the DOCSTRING so that the lisp system would be able to use it for hints and interrogation. 17:15:30 s/Evern/Even/ 17:15:32 revel: There are many bugs in your function. Generally, a good debugging technique is to type expressions at the Lisp prompt and see what happens. If you decompose your function into small expressions and try them, you'll find that they do not do what you expect. 17:15:38 I'm having a total typing fail today. 17:15:54 I can't make out what that function is even supposed to do 17:16:03 c03: what directory is textengine.lisp in? 17:16:29 /home/c03/Desktop 17:16:41 c03: and if you cd /home/c03/Desktop and cat the file, you see the expected forms? 17:16:56 fuckin' a! 17:17:07 drdo: it is mean to add items to a hashtable, but add them to a hash value if it already exists 17:17:10 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@li212-47.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:17:10 i'm changing my nick after this one 17:17:16 c03: I can't tell if that is a "yes" or a "no"... 17:17:20 this is embarrasing... even for a newbie 17:17:23 It's a "no" 17:17:31 =) 17:17:59 revel: what? 17:18:32 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-160-160-172.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18:37 (push (gethash key hash-table))? 17:18:40 drdo: it is ment to store each element of the list in a hash table 17:18:59 revel: What is that supposed to mean? A hash table is a mapping 17:19:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19:35 revel: Now that I've tried to read your code, it is making my brain burn in addition to my eyes. 17:19:39 fmeyer [~fmeyer@li212-47.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:20:16 tmh: I can only assume that not even revel knows what he's trying to do 17:20:23 I can make no sense of it 17:21:42 wtf is that code? 17:21:45 Yes, it is very convoluted. 17:22:03 ok, ill break the code down. 17:22:12 and work withe repl 17:22:27 with the* 17:23:02 revel: First, answer the question, what are you trying to do? 17:23:11 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.24.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:23:20 revel: Annotate your paste with an example of how it is supposed to work with comments. Something like (numbers '(1 2 3 4 5)) => result. Describe exactly what you are trying to accomplish. 17:23:24 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-152-185-33.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:23:46 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:24:09 i can't tell if you guys are patient, or just really curious what he was actually trying to do 17:24:13 lol 17:24:39 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 17:24:47 emef0: Neither, it's all part of a game. 17:25:07 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.14.22] has joined #lisp 17:25:52 -!- quek [~ancient@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:57 emef0: Neither, just trying to help, i don't actually care if he takes a year or 5min to unconfuse himself 17:26:10 We string revel along long enough to track down his location, then send out the goons to bludgeon him for creating that code. 17:26:45 tmh: hahah, I think that might be uncalled for 17:27:04 emef0: We're very serious about code here. ;-) 17:27:16 tmh: although, I'm sure I would learn faster if there was goons bashing my head everytime I made a mistake 17:27:53 haha 17:28:04 Bronsa [~bronsa@host118-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:28:25 You would probably learn not to make mistakes very fast 17:28:43 Unfortunately, your method of making no mistakes would probably be not making anything at all 17:28:56 maybe they should start employing this technique at universities :) 17:29:26 I can name a few people that might deserve it... 17:31:11 We don't bludgeon for just any mistake, it takes a special kind to call out the goons. 17:32:29 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:32:38 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:33:29 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33:40 So there must be some set of rules laid out for this kind of thing, right? 17:33:50 -!- revel [~revel@host86-129-86-251.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:34:58 the goons arrived 17:35:49 kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:54 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 17:38:27 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:24 does lisp have anything like pythons raw strings - where you append an r in front of the string and what follows is completely literal? 17:39:43 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:39:47 ZabaQ: Not built-in. 17:39:49 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:49 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.165.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:41:47 ZabaQ: Just normal "" is pretty close, though 17:41:59 What's a raw string? 17:42:00 Just \" and \\ are special 17:45:56 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-149-192.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:47:18 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-164-55.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 17:49:11 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:49:53 kanen [~kanen@c-69-181-21-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:39 ZabaQ: I have a reader macro for such a thing 17:52:14 some one here knows the internals of abcl? 17:52:34 some may know 17:53:19 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:37 stassats: I want to know how ABCL represents the CL integer in JVM 17:54:56 CL integer type is comprised by bignum and fixnum 17:55:14 Same with ABCL. 17:55:27 ok thanks 17:55:32 stassats: my blog http://lisperweasel.blogspot.com 17:55:51 nurv101: I just replied to your questions in #abcl. 17:55:58 stassats: I'm trying to using Lisp for my robot works :) 17:56:18 i am sorry, but know nothing of robots 17:56:52 neither am i versed in Italian 17:56:53 stassats: ok, but it's a (almost) Lisp related blog (I hope) :) 17:57:06 stassats: ok 17:57:16 jstypo [~jstypo@190.39.219.179] has joined #lisp 17:58:48 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@78.175.221.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:41 rread [~rread@c-24-5-127-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:32 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:00:33 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 18:00:43 -!- rmar|lunch is now known as rmarianski 18:00:46 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:02:14 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.175.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:04:02 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.218.132] has joined #lisp 18:05:26 nurv101: there is a #abcl, too, if you need gory details 18:05:31 -!- spcshpopr8r [~user@c-71-231-165-31.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:06:49 bsod1 [~osa1@78.175.221.35] has joined #lisp 18:08:44 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 18:10:47 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Client Quit] 18:14:01 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.44.3.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:20:12 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 18:20:14 -!- mheld [~mheld@74.61.205.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:24:31 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: aaaaaarrgh] 18:27:10 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:46 -!- Tril [tril@bespin.org] has left #lisp 18:30:59 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:32:59 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:34:29 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:35:05 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 18:36:13 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:28 pnq [~nick@AC811CC1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:40 sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:15 lichtblau: herep 18:38:29 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.11.232] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:43:15 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-45-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:15 mheld [~mheld@74.61.205.248] has joined #lisp 18:46:29 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 18:47:19 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 18:48:38 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:49:15 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:28 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.114.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:50:00 Is Armed Bear CL still maintained? 18:50:08 yes 18:51:14 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:27 Anyone here know much about solving constraint satisfaction problems? 18:53:21 balooga1 [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 18:53:21 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:54:16 sacho [~sacho@95-42-111-165.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 18:55:37 stassats: hi 18:57:58 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:58:49 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff946d.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 18:58:51 gigamonkey: I can get no satisfaction 18:59:11 lichtblau: i don't understand qclass-find-applicable-method function, in particular cond clause, why doesn't it test for applicability when only a single method is returned? i changed it to https://github.com/stassats/commonqt/commit/196301a023b6a2444d2c1bb72ea8ddecbf54c4f4 am i missing something? 18:59:52 Posterdati: you and me both. ;-) 18:59:56 gigamonkey: here my blog: http://lisperweasel.blogspot.com 19:00:19 gigamonkey: you started it all :) because your book LOL! 19:00:43 Posterdati: It's all lorem ipsum! (I kid) 19:01:01 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:01:02 stassats: why waste time "finding the applicable method" if there is only one method? 19:01:21 gigamonkey: I'm into scheduling problem now! 19:01:24 that was the thinking anyway, I'd say 19:01:26 gigamonkey: Is "constraint satisfaction" just another way of saying numerical optimization? 19:01:59 lichtblau: because it's intangible, and you get a better error message 19:02:13 gigamonkey: is it related to utility function? 19:02:13 Posterdati: That's not gigamonkey's book. gigamonkey wrote Practical Common Lisp. 19:02:43 redline6561: I'm referring to Practical Common Lisp, the first book I read 19:02:47 lichtblau: and the way i rewrote it's even faster 19:02:49 redline6561: I think the LOL was actually LOL, not LoL 19:02:56 redline6561: and I'm reading 19:03:01 tmh, Posterdati: Ah, thanks. Apologies. 19:03:04 redline6561: not let over lambda 19:03:14 redline6561: don't worry 19:03:21 :) 19:03:29 tmh: there is a LOL and a LoL and they are both Lisp books. 19:03:29 Or Land of Lisp, this whole LOL thing is getting really confusing. 19:03:46 LoL = Let over Lambda, I think :) 19:03:47 tmh: Yeah, a bit. 19:04:11 Posterdati: That makes sense. After all "LOL" > "LoL". ;) 19:04:19 Lisp on Lines 19:04:27 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:04:33 oh? ISTR hating this error. The error from the marshaller saying "I don't like this particular argument value, here it is" was clearer than the dumb "I didn't find any methods, but I'm not telling why exactly". 19:04:49 -!- balooga1 is now known as Balooga 19:04:54 gigamonkey: I'll show my scheduling problem in a few weeks I hope! Are you interested? 19:04:56 Get 'on Lisp' and give LoL a rest. That would be my recommendation. 19:05:11 anyway. I readily admit my old implementation is really bad. 19:05:40 Perhaps yours is better. 19:05:51 I found PCL more educational than Land of Lisp (alas they're two good books to start and possibly end) 19:05:53 lichtblau: well "There is no applicable method for the generic function # when called with arguments (NIL)." was mighty confusing to me 19:06:04 agreed 19:06:14 As always, I argue against any change that doesn't come with tests and benchmarks though. :-) 19:06:21 My old Lisp games are C like and pretty bad but it reminds me of the effort it took me to learn to think in Lisp. 19:07:20 one may say that Lisp is more Turing like programming. 19:07:51 or a simple machine that performs simple and atomic operations 19:07:58 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:08:27 actually I'd be content with tests 19:08:29 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 19:08:38 (we don't have any good benchmarks for this slow interpreted case yet at all, that's on my to do list, so I can't really ask for more tests in a missing test framework) 19:09:00 hmm. Lisp has too much LoLs. 19:09:01 At least one test that fails when the broken remove-duplicates is enabled. 19:09:08 If you haven't picked it up yet try 'The lambda calulus' by Barendreght for a fuller under standing of lambda calulus. 19:09:44 I think you will find it is quite different from Turing machines. 19:09:51 At the very least an issue on the tracker saying that this test is missing, etc. (I trust you get the gist of this argument.) 19:10:25 On the surface your commit looks like an improvement to me! (But what do I know.) 19:10:26 What is Turing like programming? 19:11:02 Which CommonQt repo should I use for quicklisp this month? 19:11:05 i'll try to conceive a benchmark 19:11:10 *Xach* plans to do an update this week 19:11:14 Xach: from gitorious 19:11:29 jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:32 what's the URL for that? 19:11:52 http://gitorious.org/commonqt/commonqt 19:12:24 thanks. 19:12:26 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.114.89] has joined #lisp 19:12:31 turing looks like a dumb pascal dialect 19:12:34 drdo: It involves bombes. 19:13:26 in the "infinite strip of tape" definition of a turing machine, brainf*ck is pretty close :-P 19:13:29 Turing is a state machine hooked up to a infinite length tape. 19:14:08 a theoretical machine 19:14:10 Möbious strip? 19:14:12 It has no more to do with Pascal than Lisp does. 19:14:20 stassats: I've started writing benchmarks for interpret-*, but my benchmarking "framework" is very bad at dealing with the high amount of consing. I'll look into it. 19:14:41 -!- emef0 [~user@wlan086-212.wlan.wwu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:56 It is just a old and somewhat awkward way of looking at computation. 19:15:41 hun [~user@95-90-244-147-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:42 milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc692.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 19:17:39 -!- kanen [~kanen@c-69-181-21-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: kanen] 19:18:54 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ff946d.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:19:42 lichtblau: You're using commonqt at work? 19:22:19 tcr: not yet 19:23:50 lichtblau: and this commit is in antother branch, i've repaired the master branch and push only unquestionable things to it 19:26:54 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:27:10 Posterdati: sure. I'm mostly wondering right now if anybody really understands value ordering heuristics 19:27:29 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:28:27 gigamonkey: my problem is simply, I think 19:28:48 gigamonkey: may I explain to you? 19:29:11 hook lisp to gecode and call it a day? 19:30:45 -!- nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:31:14 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-161-228.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 19:32:15 Posterdati: sure. 19:32:43 and give us a link on value ordering heuristics 19:33:25 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:33:35 gigamonkey: me and a cow-worker ( :) ) developed a firmware and a pc program to control a robot. 19:34:00 and it became self-aware? 19:34:01 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 19:34:23 no, it become a nasty piece of work 19:34:28 It also started self-replicating. 19:34:56 gigamonkey: this robot have to perform two identical task in a sequential fashion 19:35:26 nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has joined #lisp 19:35:28 gigamonkey: perhaps you're aware of this, but it seems that define-binary-type forms need to be in an (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) form if you want to use their initargs in subsequent define-binary-class forms, e.g. 19:35:46 gigamonkey: every task is formed by elemental operations like take a frame, or heat a peltier cell 19:37:02 -!- nurv101 [~nurv101@2001:690:2100:2:4687:fcff:fe91:9c05] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:06 slyrus: I am not aware of that. 19:37:12 Though I could easily believe it. 19:37:33 That's probably a bug. 19:37:46 As in the macro should do that for you. 19:37:54 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:38:02 OK. I think the canonical example would be the :if forms in your optional type 19:38:15 I didn't see it at first because it was in another file 19:38:33 (and in other cases I just ignored the warnings -- now I think they're probably worth paying attention to) 19:39:42 gigamonkey: so while the first task is performing its operations, the scheduler have to execute the second task too during first task pauses 19:41:52 mathrick [~mathrick@83.1.168.198] has joined #lisp 19:42:27 hmm, style advice needed 19:42:38 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-152-185-33.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:10 gigamonkey: still there? 19:43:11 -!- pnq [~nick@AC811CC1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:43:59 I'm reading in and processing some data, and for that I have a DATA-SOURCE class. The data might be in one of two formats: raw ("profile") or pre-processed ("centroid"), so I have two corresponding subclasses of DATA-SOURCE 19:44:19 I can determine the format by reading and looking at the first line of the file the data comes from 19:44:46 Posterdati: yeah. 19:44:52 now, is using CHANGE-CLASS to morph the instances into appropriate subclasses when I begin reading data icky? 19:45:10 mathrick: no 19:45:32 Xach: good. I knew there was something to be said for avoiding reimplementing dispatch by hand :) 19:45:33 if it's wrong, i don't want to be right. 19:45:41 gigamonkey: problem is that the two task perform operations that have to be executed with the correct order and time... 19:46:15 gigamonkey: then it is very difficult to handle errors and exceptions 19:46:26 mathrick: can't you instantiate the right class in the first place? 19:46:42 stassats: no, because I don't known until I look at the data stream 19:47:02 and I want to avoid requiring it to be open and readable at the construction time 19:47:07 yeah change-class looks actually quite elegant in that case :-) 19:47:15 :) 19:47:40 Posterdati: welcome to the wonderfull world of concurrent programming ;-) 19:48:03 gigamonkey: yes, I hope Lisp would solve these problems 19:48:16 gigamonkey: yes, I mean help me to solve them 19:48:30 Posterdati: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/bachelor-thesis.pdf might be of interest 19:48:33 Posterdati: there are various concurrent programming packages to help with the inherent ugliness of the problem 19:48:41 eager-future for instance 19:49:01 http://www.cliki.net/Eager%20Future2 19:50:05 mathrick: :) 19:50:13 tcr: thanks 19:51:04 Posterdati: I don't know anything in Lisp qua language that's going to particularly solve that problem for you. But as others are pointing out there may well be existing libraries that can help. 19:51:16 tcr: That looks great! 19:51:18 And the general power of Lisp should come in handy. ;-) 19:51:32 gigamonkey: is that what I mean 19:52:29 the effect of using Lisp for 20 years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laqLtEEadzc 19:52:33 :) 19:53:13 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@19.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:54:02 Xach: It has some nifty concepts, seems to be exactly what Posterdati is looking for from what I can see glancing in backlg 19:54:31 tcr: what? 19:54:52 The language on top of CL described in that bachelor thesis 19:54:55 amb007 [~a_bakic@19.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:09 gigamonkey: the robot has got two execution queue, so I think it would be useful to use these queue balancing and scheduling execution among them 19:56:19 tcr: ok, I'll give a read to that 19:56:23 -!- rmarianski is now known as rmar|mtng 19:56:27 tcr: interesting, I've written half of my friend's master thesis, which was a CL-based domain language for describing modular robots 19:56:32 wanderin` [~user@c-24-131-74-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:35 tcr: I'll post my test later :) 19:56:48 CL is just so nice for creating niche dialects 19:57:25 mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:50 gigamonkey: I've both committed that to my alexandria branch and submitted an issue on your monkeylib github project 19:59:02 -!- Balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:26 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 19:59:26 -!- wanderingelf [~user@c-24-131-74-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:59:30 and my big mp4 tag munging project is proceeding apace.... 20:00:40 *tcr* ponders about a reader macro $() which boils down to run-program "sh" 20:00:53 Anyone with a free hour? 20:00:57 that reminds me 20:01:05 tcr: heh 20:01:15 Xach: have you published your CL-as-shell-scripting-language helpers anywhere? 20:01:16 I could actually use that, so much appreciated 20:01:18 -!- c03 [~c03@563446ae.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:01:22 you want to make #\$ a dispatch character? 20:01:46 dlowe: Not strictly needed in this particular case :-) 20:01:54 mathrick: Not yet. 20:02:10 consider yourself looked longingly at then 20:02:19 hm maybe I give it myself a go 20:03:23 I hate this startup life, I'm always supposed to do something :-( 20:03:42 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-109-67-206-205.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04:46 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-67-206-205.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:59 mathrick: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118295 has the work in progress 20:05:59 dlowe: I want to make $$$ :) 20:06:37 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:07:10 Posterdati: surely you are already a millionaire 20:07:28 Xach: that looks rather nice 20:07:28 Xach: not as you :) lol 20:08:01 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:08:07 TubeSteak [~user@94-226-82-25.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:08:12 Posterdati: in lira, i mean. 20:08:25 mathrick: It helps not to care about #-sbcl 20:08:35 I guess 20:08:49 that's racism! 20:09:06 stassats: nah, just smugness 20:09:40 -!- joeygibson [~joeygibso@208.52.139.50] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:13:42 -!- TubeSteak [~user@94-226-82-25.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 20:13:56 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118295#1 20:15:29 -!- amaron_ [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:15:31 I found that I less often want to see the output of sub processes except in case they fail 20:15:57 tcr: a sensible default 20:16:02 amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has joined #lisp 20:17:36 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-217-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:20:04 tcr: the unix way, lack of output means success 20:20:58 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host118-119-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:22:21 _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 20:22:43 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.114.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:23:29 -!- kencausey2 is now known as kencausey 20:28:45 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010a59.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:57 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-169-170.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:13 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-173-34.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:31:27 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 20:32:34 hi 20:33:16 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:36 Xach: we don't use lira anymore :) 20:35:06 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:35:27 Xach: are you Zach Beane? 20:35:36 Posterdati: One of them. 20:36:07 Xach: ah good 20:36:26 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-226-230-252.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 20:36:29 Xach: I added your feed to akregator :) 20:37:02 Xach: but how can I add my blog to the "Subscriptions" list? 20:37:26 -!- sacho [~sacho@95-42-111-165.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:37:41 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 20:38:56 Posterdati: Write intelligently in English about Common Lisp for a while. 20:39:04 Xach: ah ok 20:41:44 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.218.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:42:21 ferada` [~user@g231126162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:52 ferada`` [~user@g230249019.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:43:33 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.194.48] has joined #lisp 20:45:50 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:46:38 -!- ferada` [~user@g231126162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:46:55 sacho [~sacho@95-42-68-160.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 20:47:43 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:19 -!- rhysodidae [~rhysodida@91.207.42.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:49:26 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:29 what's the recommended library for splitting lines into fields? SPLIT-SEQUENCE? Something from Alexandria? 20:50:47 split-sequence is often used. 20:50:59 mathrick: I'm a big fan of the META-SEXP parser generator. 20:51:11 mathrick: but if your lines are CSV lines, you should better use a CSV parser. 20:51:16 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-188-118-140-92.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:51:47 I don't think they're CSV, just a bunch of floats separated by whitespace 20:52:01 Why not just read them? 20:52:02 with the first line being a header 20:52:03 mathrick: in that case: read 20:52:17 because I need to look at the first line first :) 20:52:28 (read-from-string (format nil "(~A)" line)) 20:52:43 Do not use read for floats, it is painfully slow. 20:52:51 (progn (read-line stream) (loop for x = (read stream nil nil) while x collect x)) 20:52:56 tmh: what should I use then? 20:53:13 tmh: well, i don't know on your hardware, but on mine it's fast enough 20:53:24 i presume it depends on the task. 20:53:27 READ can read one float pretty quickly. 20:53:36 And is pretty fast at five, too. 20:53:45 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:53:51 it's fast enough at a few million, too 20:54:29 prxq: It's definitely the task. I'm getting ravaged at the moment processing large text files of float data. The equivalent Fortran code is ridiculously faster. 20:54:31 a few billion? ok 20:55:11 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55:14 tmh: heh, I certainly wouldn't suspect Fortran of being fast at string processing 20:55:49 mathrick: i think it just reads floats :-) that's why read is probably slow 20:55:59 mathrick: what prxq said. 20:56:00 probably 20:56:48 mathrick: How much data do you need to read? 20:56:59 tmh: do you use sbcl? I str the C float reader is linked in... 20:57:10 it is? 20:57:22 but more to the point, how accurate do you need your float reading to be? 20:57:41 depends, each data file is about 20K lines of 3-6 floats 20:57:44 prxq: Unfortunately no, I'm on Win7. 20:57:51 with around 400 such files per run 20:58:40 tmh: most probably, the difference is that fortran processes ASCII files, while lisp processes UTF-8 files. 20:58:45 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:58:47 or unicode character by all means. 20:58:51 but I don't _really_ need to optimise it today 20:58:56 I'm just exploring the data atm 20:59:01 tmh: ah, that may explain another part of the performance gap... 20:59:33 Krystof: i think plain libc is linked in, and atof is in there. At least sort was in there a few years ago (my, how time passes) 20:59:37 ah, well, yes 21:00:09 large text files of float data as base 10 decimals is a good way to lose performance or accuracy (or both) in any language 21:00:21 mathrick: Let me paste an example of how I would read those files. Just a minute. 21:01:01 k 21:01:03 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:26 Krystof: There is a way to minimize the loss in accuracy. I've not had time to incorporate it into my read routines, but I think Beach has an implementation of it. 21:01:38 if you need to do a lot of this, try encoding using c99 printf's %a, or as sign,mantissa,exponent triples 21:02:01 or just write a small fortran wrapper :-) 21:02:12 tmh: it is possible to implement round-tripping print/read, yes (see e.g. Burger & Dybvig) 21:02:42 normally those ways of doing very precise printing and reading are slow in comparison to not-precise printing and reading 21:02:52 rhysodidae [~rhysodida@91.207.42.52] has joined #lisp 21:03:43 Krystof: I'm thinking of a different reference. I'm really motivated to try to solve this, because if I don't, my client is going to start specifying that I use Fortran. 21:03:54 By this, I mean the performance issue. 21:04:21 tmh: can you link in a fortran routine? 21:04:52 prxq: If I were using Allegro, I think I can link directly. I'm not sure if I can with LispWorks. 21:05:46 -!- unkanon2 [~unkanon@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:05:54 heh, "Initial release of the Alexandria library is yet to happen" 21:07:11 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:07:49 tmh: a long time ago I wrote http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/tmp/printed.ps 21:08:30 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 21:09:26 Krystof: Downloaded. I'll look through it in a bit. I've been working off of the Clinger reference and Beach sent me a reference by Gay but I've not had a chance to read and implement it. 21:10:13 -!- nilly [~nil@c-98-247-253-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11:45 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 21:13:06 mathrick: Where are these float fields being stored? 21:13:39 tmh: a struct I guess 21:14:54 mathrick: I'll put in a simple example and we'll go from there. 21:16:13 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:16:40 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:17:59 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:18:13 tmh: ah, and I dunno if the fields have a fixed order, right now I'm assuming not and determining the order based on the first line with column headers 21:18:49 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:19:31 mathrick: The file has to have some sort of regular format. 21:20:42 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118298 21:20:45 yeah, it's headers in the first line, then a series of float fields in each line 21:21:01 additionally there are sometimes dummy lines consisting of nothing but "..." 21:21:28 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.114.89] has joined #lisp 21:22:08 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:22:37 So, I used to have a parse-float routine that was analogous to parse-integer. LispWorks has one built-in. But, I was able to get comparable performance using meta-sexp. 21:23:27 interesting 21:25:51 Obviously, collecting into a list is not the best, but is usually good enough. For the really large files, I try to output the number of rows of data on the first line and create an array for the data. The problem I run into is when the size of the file exceeds ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE-LIMIT, then it can't be slurped into a string. 21:26:55 HerbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:01 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.114.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:27:28 mathrick: I've annotated with the definition of the float? rules. 21:27:35 tmh: hmm, does your method deal with variable line endings? It seems that at least some of the data I have has DOS line endings 21:27:47 tmh: what about the custom create-context you mention? 21:28:40 mathrick: If you have files with DOS eol on unix, you need to correct that before reading it with lisp. The lisp implementation expects the proper line ending. 21:28:54 mathrick: I'll annotate that. 21:28:55 bummer 21:29:15 Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-70-151.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:29:17 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:28 isn't there an :external-format for that in SBCL? 21:29:39 I don't know. 21:30:16 no 21:30:21 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:30:30 bah 21:31:08 you can have your money back, if you like 21:31:15 benny` [~benny@i577A282C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:31:26 -!- benny` is now known as benny 21:31:34 mathrick: Annotated the paste with the custom create-parser-context 21:32:33 thanks 21:32:52 Krystof: nah, but it's somewhat inconvenient 21:34:11 tmh: have you already excluded the fortran-wrapper route? 21:34:17 -!- jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:35:26 prxq: No, just was trying to avoid doing FFI into Fortran. I'm not proficient with FFI. 21:36:51 mathrick: The biggest performance improvement was slurping the entire file into a string for processing. Now I've got to start optimizing in the rules and also digging into meta-sexp. 21:37:49 mhm, I'm not at the point where I care about the performance at all yet 21:37:49 DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:37:49 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:37:49 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 21:37:53 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:09 dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:39 tmh: out of curiosity, how many floats are we talking about, and how long is too much time? 21:38:43 mathrick: I am. I'm also getting ravaged on some floating point performance. I told that client that lisp will never be as fast as Fortran, but that I could make it acceptable. Right now, I'm not even close. 21:39:07 tmh: are you competing with lapack? 21:39:09 :-) 21:39:50 decent fortran compilers are hard to beat in raw float power. 21:39:52 prxq: Indirectly. It's those damn routines in the Intel compiler that are wickedly optimized. 21:40:23 prxq: A typical file would be on the order of 1~2 million records with 6 floating point fields per record. 21:41:01 I would expect at least an order of magnitude difference between optimized fortran and lispworks on low-level floating point operations 21:41:18 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:19 prxq: What I really need to do is write the lisp code to read the binary file written by the original fortran code. 21:41:26 Good morning everyone! 21:41:34 Speak of the devil. ;-) 21:41:42 tmh: there is a binary file package somewhere in cliki 21:41:48 good morning beach! 21:42:15 tmh: and there is one described in PCL, I think 21:42:15 prxq: Yes, I have it, just haven't had a chance to use it. Fortran binary files are wierd. 21:42:24 tmh: slyrus has been using my binary-data stuff which is now up on github with some success. 21:42:38 ..that one :-) 21:42:42 And he's got it all swapped in if you have questions about it. 21:42:51 oh, lord, you have the binary file. You're done 21:42:58 Krystof: I think I could live with an order of magnitude, not there yet. 21:43:09 tmh: I am not surprised 21:43:13 rfg [~rfg@host81-102-109-91.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:13 tmh: https://github.com/gigamonkey/monkeylib-binary-data 21:43:14 gigamonkey: I write down an english text for blog, if you like: http://lisperweasel.blogspot.com 21:43:22 if you're comparing lisp reading text to fortran reading binary, I'm not even remotely surprised 21:43:27 Krystof: If I can write perl code to read binary fortran files, I surely can do it in lisp. 21:43:38 Krystof: No, the fortran is reading text as well. 21:44:57 The binary data file is documented, so I just need to get off my rear and write a processor. That would also save me from having to use the license for the software to do that post-processing from the binary representation to the text representation. 21:46:08 tmh: (without having any data on how it compares to lispworks) there is scieneer lisp, which I expect to have halfway decent floating point speed. 21:46:09 beach: what silly timezone are you in again? Vietnam? 21:46:16 mathrick: Yes. 21:46:21 beach: and hello :) 21:46:33 beach: What happened to France? 21:46:37 Hey mathrick! 21:46:47 tmh: and maybe even runs on win7 21:46:56 tmh: France is still my permanent address. I am here for 6 months. 21:47:00 prxq: I'm looking, but I don't think it does. 21:47:09 beach: Hopefully not just business. 21:47:22 tmh: I'll do my best. 21:47:28 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:47:40 prxq: No winders support. 21:47:48 no actually. 21:48:12 -!- rmar|mtng is now known as rmarianski 21:48:32 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:52:05 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 21:53:48 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:54:10 I recommend Ubuntu, though Debian is probaly better if you do a lot of development. 21:55:30 younder: I'd use linux if I could, but support clients that are all on Windows from Linux is a nightmare, even using VirtualBox. Plus, some specialized software that is required primarily supports windows. It's not really something I control. 21:57:00 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-71-227-118-15.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:13 tmh: I fear you have only the middle route left, which is to use lisp to do the logic and the front end, and C or fortran for the heavy lifting. Or, of course, finish the port of sbcl to WinX :-) 21:57:42 I see, so you use cygwin or ming. 21:59:02 prxq: Yes, that is probably where I'm headed. I spent some time trying to work through the build scripts for SBCL to use the Win7 SDK, but ran out of time and haven't had a chance to get back to it. If I succeeded at getting 64bit SBCL on windows and could support implementing threading, I think I'd be golden. 21:59:26 -!- wanderin` [~user@c-24-131-74-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:59:42 younder: I avoid cygwin and ming like the plague. The closest I get is msys-git. I'll not get closer than that. 22:00:13 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 22:00:17 clisp works under windows. It is at scripting speed. 22:00:21 -!- gnooth_ is now known as gnooth 22:01:04 -!- mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:01:42 younder: I have a licensed version of LispWorks. It's pretty nice, I like the IDE, have had good luck with CAPI, but really miss the SBCL. The compiler warnings and notes on SBCL are top-notch and so is the performance. 22:02:17 -!- paul0 [~paulogeye@189.114.206.119.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 22:03:00 tml: If you are looking for prformance LispWorks exceeds in CLOS tasks while SBCL exceeds in numerical computations. 22:03:32 -!- ferada`` is now known as ferada 22:05:35 SBCL was not yet production quality last I checked. 22:05:50 About a year ago.. 22:06:09 Under Windows. 22:07:49 If I were you I would stay with LispWorks for now. 22:08:24 -!- sepi_ [~sepiultru@hcl-club.lu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:08:28 younder: Okay 22:09:56 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:10:00 tmh: compiler notes are top notch unless they confuse the hell out of you :) 22:11:04 mathrick: To get comparable compiler notes out of LispWorks requires some DECLARE statements, more so than in SBCL. Optimizing in LispWorks is much more of an art than in SBCL. 22:11:14 -!- rmarianski [~rmariansk@mail.marianski.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:11:39 I mean things such as "warning: Asserted type (OR (VECTOR CHARACTER) (VECTOR NIL) BASE-STRING PATHNAME FILE-STREAM) conflicts with derived type (VALUES (MEMBER T) &OPTIONAL)." when I typed ECASE instead of ETYPECASE I meant 22:11:54 though some of the optimisation notes also take a PhD to decipher 22:12:27 Yeah, but once you train yourself to properly interpret those notes, you miss them. :-) 22:13:26 True, declare is required in LispWorks. You can set an option to make it explain it's optimizations (or lack of). 22:13:49 Krystof: you got me 22:14:20 :-) 22:14:30 Edge cases are hard 22:14:42 note that I did not offer up my own version 22:14:51 tmh: windows SBCL has been hacked on a lot recently by Dimitri Kalyanov I believe 22:15:10 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-105-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:16:01 mathrick: The sbcl-win32-threads repository on github? 22:16:10 yeah 22:16:18 yes 22:16:56 I'll look into to. I think it still requires mingw or similar, right? 22:17:26 tmh: I don't think it does, it has an .msi available: https://sites.google.com/site/dmitryvksite/sbcl-distr/sbcl-1.0.40-threads-2.msi 22:17:40 mathrick: No, I mean to build. 22:17:41 I don't think so. 22:18:07 Still don't think so. 22:18:09 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 22:18:17 Okay, I'll look into it. 22:18:19 tmh: no idea 22:18:37 but even if so, mingw is pretty sane compared to cygwin 22:18:56 msi's are binary installs 22:19:22 younder: I want to be able to build it and hack on it, not just install it. 22:19:28 -!- iwillig [~iwillig@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:20:26 thm well start with the msi. You will need SBCL to build SBCL from source anyhow. 22:20:50 Well actually most Lisp Compilers woud do. 22:21:32 -!- milkpost_ [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc692.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:21:48 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc692.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 22:22:44 All I can say is I always took a SBCL binary and used it to build the source. (But under Linux.) 22:23:53 younder: The build process is controlled with shell scripts. 22:24:00 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159852.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:24:16 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-45-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24:31 thm: there is a windows option I believe. 22:25:17 Look for a .bat 22:25:57 There isn't. 22:26:32 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d010a59.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: good night] 22:28:08 Well I don't have the source installed at current so I couldn't say. 22:28:50 *Krystof* giggles 22:30:26 Oops. I do. It is under /usr/local/src/clbuild source/sbcl 22:32:34 make-windows-installer.sh 22:32:38 pnq [~nick@AC81D84A.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:39 younder: What are the results of > find /usr/local/src/clbuild/source/sbcl -name "*.bat" 22:32:46 right you need cygwin 22:34:10 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc692.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:34:36 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@78.175.221.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:35:21 milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc692.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 22:36:59 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:37:05 bsod1 [~osa1@78.175.221.35] has joined #lisp 22:37:59 EarlGray [~EarlGray@91.145.192.153] has joined #lisp 22:38:36 (been gone for 3 weeks and lost my bearings) 22:39:02 -!- rfg [~rfg@host81-102-109-91.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:39:43 rfg [~rfg@81.102.104.130] has joined #lisp 22:44:15 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@dhcpw80ffc692.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:44:31 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:45:27 -!- trebor_home [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:48:38 -!- EarlGray [~EarlGray@91.145.192.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:50:14 jonte [~jonte@217-210-1-229-no149.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:07 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:51:18 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:52:23 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55:32 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 22:56:04 thm anyhow you should use a single quote '' around that 22:56:38 .bat 23:00:20 younder: The FreeBSD man page says otherwise, why do you think I need single quotes? 23:00:34 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 23:00:37 Joreji [~thomas@88-227.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:02:24 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:24 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439921.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:30 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A522A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:03:52 -!- marijnjh [~user@p5DDB16FA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:08:02 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439968.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:08:54 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:09:41 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:10:41 Krystof: Is there a fundamental limit to the performance of lisp compared to Fortran or is it just a matter of putting the effort into the compiler development? My intuition is that given sufficient type declarations, the lisp compiler should be able to generate a binary equivalent to Fortran. 23:10:42 urandom__ [~user@p548A522A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:29 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:12:03 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.97.49] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:12:10 -!- sluggo [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:12:19 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 23:12:31 tmh: There is no limit, the only limit is the ability for humans to write a SSC 23:13:45 drdo: That was my suspicion. Nothing a little money won't solve. ;-) 23:13:46 *tcr* wishes alexandria contained read-delimited-string 23:13:52 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:14:01 tmh: Well, there are actually some limits 23:14:46 Well, i guess those can be solved with declarations 23:15:17 tmh: It's tricky though. Suppose for instance that some function f returns a float that is too big to fit in a pointer. Then you either have to allocate space to hold the type information, or all callers need to know that you are returning a machine float. In the latter case, those callers need to be recompiled when f is recompiled. 23:16:14 The SSC will do sufficiently global analysis to be able to generate code using only unboxed data. 23:16:33 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:16:41 pocket_ [~pocket_@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:16:43 beach: So the types are like a contagion. If you go down that path, you'll end up having to declare all types? 23:16:50 In all functions? 23:17:02 pjb: You still have to figure out what to do when someone interactively does (defun f (...) ) 23:17:05 Or have the SSC infer the types itself. There's really no need for declarations. 23:17:19 The main problem that screws everything up is stuff being dynamic 23:17:34 beach: yes, but this doesn't occur in 99% of the applications, and it is forbidden in the applications you sell thru the AppStore. 23:17:37 Then why do I have to declare types to get optimizations. 23:17:40 ? 23:17:47 tmh: No, I think type infererencing can avoid most declarations. 23:17:57 tmh: because Lisp compilers and not as SS as Haskell compilers. 23:18:03 sohail1 [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:06 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:18:28 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 23:19:06 pjb: Haskell compilers can know a lot more because of static typing 23:19:10 Ugh, have to go just as it was getting interesting. 23:19:17 Thanks for the responses. 23:20:00 tmh: Because most compilers don't do inter-function type analysis, partly for the reason I mention above, it can turn out that such an analysis is wrong when a function is redefined. 23:20:33 what about JIT? 23:21:09 stassats: Actually, Lisp doesn't need JIT (I think) because it has the unique property that the entire program is always available at any point in time. 23:21:40 beach: What does that mean? 23:22:25 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-226-230-252.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:22:29 I need to squeeze enough performance out to be passable until that mythical day when the compilers are better. 23:22:33 -!- balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:23:07 -!- hun [~user@95-90-244-147-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:23:08 beach: there is more to programs than just code 23:23:12 I'm trying to use cl now that I'm quite comfortable with elisp. I know that sequences/arrays/vectors/whatever-they're-called are different in cl, so I'm not quite sure how to do this: split a string into a list (or array or whatever's best) of characters? (I need to iterate over the digits in a number which I can enter as a string.) 23:23:15 tmh: When compilers can do such things, i think we'll be too busy fighting skynet 23:23:22 you can optimize more if you know what the input is 23:23:37 Heh, alright, on that note I have to go. Night all. 23:23:48 drdo: my point is that 90% of the lisp programs written are statically typed. 23:24:04 At least when you consider them globally. 23:24:08 pjb: Right, but you have the ability to change almost anything at runtime 23:24:13 The only way you can do that 23:24:25 but this ability is not exercised in 90% of the programs. 23:24:31 Is telling the compiler: Look, this is static, i promise not to change 23:24:31 aidalgol: For that, you don't need to split it: (loop for digit across number-string ...) 23:24:50 So for 90% of the programs, a SSC could generate code as efficient as Haskell compilers. 23:24:52 And the compiler says: ok, but if you change it, anything can happen, i don't make any promise 23:25:15 aidalgol: what beach said and using digit-char-p 23:25:40 drdo: you don't even need to tell it "this is static", if the compiler can infer it itself by having a global look at the program. 23:25:55 pjb: You can't do that 23:26:02 beach, stassats: Thanks, I'll try that. 23:26:06 drdo: we're really talking about a COMPILE-EVERYTHING-AND-SAVE-IMAGE function here, not about COMPILE-FILE. 23:26:08 I can always EVAL anything at all 23:26:15 beach: and not yet written code is not available, unless you settle on not changing anything 23:26:17 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:26:50 drdo: yes, you can. But if in all the sources of your application there's no eval, even a dumb compiler can deduce it. 23:27:49 What's an SSC? 23:28:02 sufficiently smart compiler 23:28:03 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 23:28:06 How should I set variables? With setq, or is that not the conventional/recommended function/macro in cl? 23:28:12 ahhh 23:28:18 pjb: Then you give up the REPL 23:29:34 aidalgol: (setq foo bar) = (set 'foo bar) 23:29:48 drdo: it's not 23:30:09 Example? 23:30:10 -!- rfg [~rfg@81.102.104.130] has quit [Quit: rfg] 23:30:20 lexical variables 23:30:32 drdo: I know that from elsip, but I know there's also setf et al. 23:30:36 symbol macros 23:32:35 stassats: I didn't actually know that 23:32:40 I just noticed that set is deprecated 23:33:22 i officially undeprecate it. 23:33:49 jtza8 [~jtza8@wbs-196-2-106-181.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 23:33:53 why? 23:33:56 *jsoft* discovers (nth-value) 23:34:22 astoon [~astoon@92.243.187.229] has joined #lisp 23:34:34 xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has joined #lisp 23:34:47 drdo: deprecation is deprecated too 23:34:56 What's wrong with this? (loop for digit across number-string (princ digit)) 23:35:05 you forgot DO 23:35:05 tcr: deprecation doesn't really mean anything in the presence of an unchanging standard. 23:36:01 Things can only be unstylish now. 23:36:03 Well it could act as hints for bad-style (if only it didn't screw up foo-if-not) 23:36:37 *Xach* declares BOOLE unstylish 23:37:09 -!- sohail1 [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:37:36 What function maps digit-char => number? 23:38:21 digit-char-p 23:38:31 i've already told you that! 23:38:39 -!- xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has left #lisp 23:39:16 Then I didn't understand the documentation for that function. 23:41:10 Oh, now I see. :P 23:41:57 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:45:41 francogrex [~user@109.130.136.35] has joined #lisp 23:51:09 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:51:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-93.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:52:52 balooga [~00u4440@147.21.8.1] has joined #lisp 23:58:04 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp