00:00:48 that's hopefully just to avoid copies, then. 00:01:17 calling delete on a reference would be strange... 00:01:34 lichtblau: there are a few apis where qt takes ownership 00:01:54 stassats: I've pushed a fix for this particular problem as the tip of the branch stack-value-fix. 00:02:17 As with the other fix, please don't merge at this point; the commit itself isn't quite done, and there's other stuff on the branch. etc pp. :-) 00:02:35 But it should help get your app running, and is, in principle, a needed fix anyway. 00:02:57 AFAIK, you can be sure if it is taking by reference, it is not taking ownership 00:03:10 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:03:18 so, if this fix works, we shouldn't need the caching tricks anymore? 00:03:28 stassats: which caching tricks? 00:04:32 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:04:50 lichtblau: subclass checking in %qobject, caching superclasses in cache! 00:04:59 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:04:59 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:04:59 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 00:05:15 lichtblau: if Qt ever deletes something passed to it via a const reference it can be surely considered too broken 00:05:38 ivan4th: okay, then I was looking for the wrong example. Perhaps other examples exist? 00:05:46 stassats: OK. Regarding %qobject: I don't know, since I don't understand that change. :-) Let's do the cerror thing, so that we'll know for certain. 00:06:48 stassats: Regarding the map-cpl stuff in cache! -- no, that's needed in any case (but only for classes with multiple inheritance). 00:06:51 lichtblau: it was particularly directed at this, when i got deleted QVariants instead of the actual object 00:07:51 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.10.40.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:07:54 apparently you guys find caching really exciting! 00:08:21 lichtblau: the problems with Qt deleting value object can only occur if such object is passed via non-const pointer. I don't remember such places in Qt. Most Qt value objects use refcounted sharing under the hood, so they are just passed around without (much) overhead everywhere (not pointers to them) 00:08:38 naryl: the one from http://cliki.net/trivial-irc ? 00:10:19 there is reference counting for non-QObjects? 00:10:31 lichtblau: it's hidden 00:10:44 e.g. QString uses it, QPixmap, etc. 00:11:45 *stassats* is horrified how tricky all this is 00:11:54 http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7/implicit-sharing.html 00:12:54 thus, most instances of such classes aren't much more than a pointer themselves 00:13:09 mind if I ask what the tricky part is? 00:13:16 stassats: I'm reminded of the difficulty of rocking a rhyme that's right on time. 00:13:36 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 00:15:30 sohail: *shrug* the tricky part is that kdebindings, while technically brilliant, is basically undocumented. 00:16:13 lichtblau: ah yeah 00:17:17 I would hope that smoke doesn't do anything too clever 00:17:57 Plus there are, of course, various design decisions left to the actual bindings implementors, so one couldn't expect them to write manual saying "you must use this library the following way" anyway. 00:19:49 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:20:16 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:20:30 Good morning everyone! 00:21:15 hi beach 00:21:33 well, what I'm trying to say is that a method taking a pointer to QVariant and then deleting it later doesn't make any sense at all in the context of Qt API design principles. 00:21:45 lichtblau: well, I'm pretty familiar with Qt so if you need anything, lmk 00:22:38 ivan4th: are there any apis that take in a QVariant by pointer? I don't recall one off hand 00:24:14 -!- earlgray_ [~EarlGray@79.124.160.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:25:29 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:30:15 Xach: yes 00:30:41 The one from http://cliki.net/trivial-irc 00:31:02 Right, Google Code! I'll go writ a ticket to quicklisp-projects 00:34:09 -!- vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:34:39 e.e I made an irc bot entirely in lisp. :) 00:35:06 It uses ext:saveinitmem to keep all of the defuns and stuff. 00:35:28 sea4ever: me too and i don't want to do it again 00:35:42 Why not? It was fun 00:35:54 it's always fun for the first time 00:40:50 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:44:02 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@81.214.240.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:16 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 00:46:21 Sorry, OT question: is it possible to check whether you have a 64-bit processor running a 32-bit OS short of taking apart the box? 00:46:23 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:48:29 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:49:13 <_3b> you should be able to determine the model of the CPU by asking the OS, and look that up online 00:50:03 _3b: Ah, OK. Thanks! 00:50:04 <_3b> for example with cat /proc/cpuinfo in linux 00:50:39 _3b: Just what I was looking for! Thanks! 00:50:53 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:14 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:52:33 o0b [~o0b@24-205-70-62.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:30 lichtblau: fyi, I've managed to get the repl stuff sorted now 00:55:45 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:07 pushed the changes. Speaking of which I can't figure out a way to get rid of the lame concatenation + if statement with define-foreign-library alone. Seems I have to do the if statement anyway 00:56:14 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:56:41 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:59:05 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:59:40 sohail: where's the code ? 01:01:07 -!- Soulman [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 01:01:10 fe[nl]ix: http://gitorious.org/~iamcheez/commonqt/iamcheez-commonqt-mac 01:02:56 fe[nl]ix: if you're wondering about the lame concatenation, that is here: http://gitorious.org/commonqt/iamcheez-commonqt-mac/commit/fe45a8df74f91931850a9db28745ada0d294793d 01:03:12 . 01:06:39 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:08:29 -!- sabayonuser [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:04 <_3b> sohail: prefix = ".dylib" ? 01:10:11 -!- MikeSeth [~me@unaffiliated/mikeseth] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:10:45 _3b: did I do that? 01:11:11 sabayonuser [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:15 ah yes, copy and waste 01:11:17 doh 01:11:35 sohail: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118216 01:11:52 <_3b> yeah, that was my next question :) 01:12:12 i'd rather have a working objc bridge than qt on osx ;p 01:12:21 fe[nl]ix: hm, what about where the versioned library name is used? 01:12:44 _3b: ideas on how to share that code? 01:12:52 -!- o0b [~o0b@24-205-70-62.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:13:21 <_3b> (the lack of use of define-foreign-library that is) 01:13:28 MikeSeth [~me@174-143-244-95.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #lisp 01:14:09 sohail: tell the users to create the symlink, or install the correct -dev package 01:14:55 trying to guess it leads to madness 01:15:50 <_3b> hmm, i guess that lib is something built and installed by the lisp lib? 01:15:58 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.119.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:16:53 stalinho [~eduardo@189.60.2.212] has joined #lisp 01:17:24 I don't know what the logic is actually, something to do with fasls 01:20:40 libcommonqt is built by invoking qmake than make while doing asdf:compile-op 01:20:59 sure 01:21:15 ok, I see 01:22:16 on windows platform this must be done manually 01:22:57 so you don't really need .dll here perhaps 01:23:17 -!- sabayonuser [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23:42 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:07 actually, I built it manually on mac too 01:24:13 because I had to pass in the -spec argument 01:24:16 to qmake 01:24:44 as of version suffixes, well, they depend on what does qmake generate on the particular platform, so it's not very good that they're hardcoded, but I couldn't think of a better approach yet 01:24:58 if you build it manually you don't really need cpp->so stuff 01:26:06 in :components section of the :qt system definition replace both occurences of #-(or mswindows windows win32) with #-(or mswindows windows win32 darwin) 01:27:11 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.211.67] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 01:28:02 as of your qt-repl changes, I get the idea but frankly speaking the changes you made are not very clean (passing install-repl-hook flag to %install-hooks, restoring globals that aren't changed when you don't start a new thread, if-progn etc.) 01:28:25 ivan4th: a better approach is to detect the library version after build, and create the .so symlink 01:28:33 or even better, rename the library 01:28:42 that should work on windows too 01:29:20 ivan4th: yeah, the globals thing is stupid 01:29:20 fe[nl]ix: that would require some qmake work 01:29:34 don't understand what is unclean about passing in the variable 01:30:11 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:34 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:30:58 sohail: I think (when install-repl-hooks (%install-hooks)) is better. what's the point in passing a flag that only indicates whether this particular function should do anything? 01:31:15 sabayonuser [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:17 ivan4th: b/c I have to do it in two places, that's all 01:31:36 jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:45 also, alternative to if-else progn appreciated 01:32:07 jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has joined #lisp 01:32:07 -!- jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has quit [Changing host] 01:32:07 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:32:59 I guess I can just do it before the if 01:36:03 well, I thought it's possible to install hooks before starting the loop in both cases, but ok, that would lead to a (very unlikely) race condition, so ok 01:36:13 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 01:37:29 exactly, in practice it is probably not going to occur too often 01:37:38 seems like the hooks don't work for me anyway 01:38:52 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:41:44 if the hooks don't work you should be getting memory faults when trying to do Qt stuff from REPL pretty soon 01:42:08 -!- Yuuhi` [~user@p5483AADB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:42:38 orly 01:42:55 so far what I have is that I can only run the tutorial once 01:43:07 seems to exit the event loop after 01:45:12 what happens if you load qt-tutorial and then do (qt-tutorial-14::test) ? 01:45:50 ivan4th: from fresh repl? 01:47:51 yes, just to be safe 01:47:56 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-221.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:48:10 ivan4th: # 01:48:30 if I do eval-in-thread 01:48:34 and it isn't shown? 01:49:03 it is shown yes 01:49:19 got a couple of them now 01:49:47 ok now I get a memory error if I try to quit 01:50:38 what happens if you do it without eval-in-thread? 01:50:55 (restart lisp before trying it) 01:50:56 memory error 01:51:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-203.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:51:09 even after restarting everything? 01:52:28 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:13 kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:17 restart lisp, load qt repl, start-gui-thread (*inferior-lisp*), qt-tutorial-14::test (*slime-repl*) -> memory error 01:54:33 you can't make qwidgets in different threads 01:54:36 so that makes sense 01:56:09 muhdik [~IceChat7@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:37 sohail: important point (perhaps we should mention it somewhere): you need to load swank-listener-hooks contrib. Add (slime-require :swank-listener-hooks) to your .emacs (or some .el file you use) after slime-setup 01:56:57 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 01:56:59 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:57:14 without this, swank listener hooks indeed don't work at all 01:57:54 added this to my slime elisp file long time ago and forgot about it :( 01:59:14 when qt-repl hook is installed you should see at least one function in swank::*slime-repl-eval-hooks* (try evaluating it in repl) 02:00:09 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:00:10 -!- beach [~user@116.118.3.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:46 ivan4th: aha 02:02:13 beach [~user@116.118.46.79] has joined #lisp 02:02:38 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.123.127] has joined #lisp 02:03:20 I am using quicklisp's slime helper, I wonder if that would be generally useful for quicklisp 02:07:43 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-66.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:08:42 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:09:41 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 02:09:41 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 02:09:41 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 02:10:45 sohail: ok, it's 5am here in Moscow, I need to get some sleep... will be glad to help again, but, well, a bit later today... 02:10:49 ivan4th: I added this to .emacs and it works now: (add-hook 'slime-load-hook (lambda () (slime-require :swank-listener-hooks))) 02:10:57 ivan4th: heh, have a good one 02:11:02 thanks for your help 02:14:11 -!- lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:15:16 -!- vlion [~user@CPE-76-178-165-160.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:17:19 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 02:17:40 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.2.188] has joined #lisp 02:17:46 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 02:19:29 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.2.188] has quit [Client Quit] 02:21:27 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:22:55 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:23:13 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:13 lonstein [lonstein@173.11.229.161] has joined #lisp 02:29:29 I feel like this guy now: http://bit.ly/fELVWa 02:32:02 What is a qt slot? 02:32:39 jsoft: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/signalsandslots.html 02:32:43 using commonqt 02:33:22 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:34:05 vlion [~user@CPE-76-178-165-160.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:25 Hmm ok 02:34:32 commonqt you say 02:34:33 *jsoft* looks 02:35:05 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:36 I was pondering what I could use for a cross-platform gui gizmo, how do you find qt (wiht your commonqt and such) 02:38:35 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:35 Obviously with success I assume. :P 02:38:35 02:38:35 02:38:48 do you consider it to be an error that (loop for (nil) in '(1 2 3) collect 42) succeeds? 02:39:30 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:31 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 02:40:40 jsoft: qt is ok but only if you understand that real apps don't use the qt form widgets 02:41:00 <_3b> pkhuong: possibly 02:41:08 the experience is underwhelming with the built-in widgets 02:41:24 quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:34 <_3b> pkhuong: though arguably there are no variables in teh destructuring list, so it might not have to actually try to destructure anything 02:42:49 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:43:19 i have '(a . b). what if i want to place value of b instead of symbol b? Should i use backquote and period for that: `(a . ,b) Or there is another way? 02:43:33 <_3b> npoektop: (cons 'a b)? 02:43:48 how do you pass parameters to asdf compilation for stuff like lib paths? 02:43:51 -!- quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 02:43:54 i mean comma 02:43:59 should I just use some specials? 02:44:25 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:44:37 _3b: is there a way to do that with sugar? 02:45:38 <_3b> npoektop: that is what ` is for, unless i misread the question 02:45:46 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 02:46:20 vlion` [~user@CPE-76-178-165-160.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:46:49 -!- vlion` [~user@CPE-76-178-165-160.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46:57 _3b: my question is: Is it a good way to do smth like `(a . ,b), is it idiomatic etc 02:47:21 -!- vlion [~user@CPE-76-178-165-160.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:47:23 <_3b> pkhuong: i don't see anything that qould require an error there, so seems like a reasonable optimization either way 02:48:05 -!- sabayonuser is now known as osoleve 02:48:11 <_3b> npoektop: yeah, that doesn't seem unreasonable 02:48:27 _3b: thanks 02:50:33 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:52:51 _3b: Someone asked a question on stackoverflow that can be reduced to mine: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4581601/failing-to-pass-function-parameters-parsed-from-command-line-arguments 02:52:53 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-221.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:53:03 I was just interested. Please 02:53:03 somebody answer him that he might use (list (cons 'a . b)) or `(a . ,b) 02:55:59 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 02:56:06 <_3b> yeah, for something like that, i'd probably use ` 02:56:26 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:57:06 <_3b> acons would be another option as well, rather than (list (cons ...)) 02:57:37 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 02:58:59 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-167-227.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:00:14 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:00:27 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:00:39 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:04:41 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 03:09:44 -!- beach [~user@116.118.46.79] has left #lisp 03:10:47 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:12 SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:49 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-83.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:12:08 -!- mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 03:13:35 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:16:55 fe[nl]ix: ../libfixposix/src/lib/select.c:35:65: error: 'NULL' undeclared (first use in this function) 03:17:58 adding #include fixed that 03:18:16 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.156] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 03:19:54 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6D35.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:30:40 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:18 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:32:03 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fozqwzmkukiekdxu] has joined #lisp 03:40:29 bitflip [~user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:46 sanjoyd [~sanjoy@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has joined #lisp 03:45:11 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:47:51 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 03:56:58 /topic 04:00:07 Am I the only one who does not get what exactly everyone means by OOP? 04:01:20 csmax [~max@p5DE8EE16.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:40 colin__ [~colin@p57BA780B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:42 Hi all, I've confused myself again :( 04:03:43 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 04:04:45 -!- csmax_ [~max@p5DE8C4F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:04:59 I thought that (fn arg1 arg2) evaluates arg1, then arg2 and then calls fn on the two results. 04:05:02 kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.28] has joined #lisp 04:05:02 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.162.28] has quit [Changing host] 04:05:02 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:05:44 -!- bitflip [~user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:06:14 colin: that is the rule 04:06:36 but if I do (list 'quote 'a) I don't get (quote a). I get 'A 04:06:49 colin: 'A is just a shorthand for (quote A) 04:07:02 which meand that after fn was called, the list got evaluated itself. 04:07:22 colin: huh? 04:07:47 umm, well I was expecting a list 04:07:54 colin: it is a list.. 04:08:10 see, I'm confused :) 04:08:12 [06:06] colin: 'A is just a shorthand for (quote A) 04:08:26 ahhhh 04:08:30 right 04:10:17 mind you (cdr 'b) says that b isn't a list 04:10:47 because 'b has been evluated to b. 04:10:49 ok. 04:11:05 panteize [724f30b6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.114.79.48.182] has joined #lisp 04:12:09 (car '(quote a)) --> quote 04:12:39 (equal ''a '(quote a)) ==> true 04:13:25 sacho [~sacho@87-126-34-18.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 04:19:27 sacho_ [~sacho@46.10.11.232] has joined #lisp 04:20:07 -!- sacho [~sacho@87-126-34-18.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:21:38 -!- SsvRrwQ [~user@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:23:06 -!- panteize [724f30b6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.114.79.48.182] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:24:30 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:51 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:26:32 -!- retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:28:15 (cons 'a ''b) ==> (a quote b) 04:32:04 -!- az [~az@p5796C6BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:34:50 man, I totally suck at git 04:35:37 colin: a.k.a. (a . 'b) 04:38:09 -!- sea4ever [~sea@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:38:26 sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has joined #lisp 04:42:16 az [~az@p4FE4F247.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:17 pnq [~nick@ACA2B1F9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:42:58 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 04:43:49 pnq1 [~nick@AC81C44D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 04:44:05 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: to sleep, perchance to dream?] 04:44:12 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:29 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:46:12 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:46:49 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA2B1F9.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:48:02 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:48:31 sohail [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:33 -!- sohail [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:48:33 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 04:49:32 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 04:52:25 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 04:56:14 fantazo__ [~fantazo@178-191-164-173.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 04:58:54 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.42.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:59:32 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:00:05 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 05:00:19 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-190-239-34.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:00:39 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.162.92] has joined #lisp 05:01:18 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Client Quit] 05:09:46 oconnore [~eric@50.10.172.212] has joined #lisp 05:09:46 -!- oconnore [~eric@50.10.172.212] has quit [Client Quit] 05:10:01 oconnore [~eric@50.10.172.212] has joined #lisp 05:10:11 -!- colin__ [~colin@p57BA780B.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 05:11:13 Hum, I don't get why (loop for (((())()())()()())) in '(1 2 3) collect 42) works 05:11:37 (or any well balanced combination of brackets) 05:12:57 That expression fails in my repl, Axioplase_ 05:13:12 it works in my SBCL 1.0.43 05:13:24 returns (42 42 42) 05:13:42 LOOP source code ran out when another token was expected. 05:13:42 current LOOP context: FOR (((NIL) NIL NIL) NIL NIL NIL). 05:13:42 [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR] 05:13:45 05:14:00 ha 05:14:21 this one was not well balanced :) 05:14:23 LOOP has a lot of destructuring features. 05:14:33 (loop for (((())()()()()())) in '(1 2 3) collect 42) ;; tested 05:15:09 okay, I see. 05:15:24 That's the same as (loop for nil in '(1 2 3) collect 42) 05:16:14 I guess so, but isn't the "pattern" *requiring* that the list has elements of this shape? 05:16:32 consdier the following LOOP 05:16:36 (loop for (a nil c) in '((1 2 3) (4 5 6)) collect `(,a ,c)) 05:16:51 you can put in NIL instead of a bogus variable 05:17:12 so all those nils in the FOR clause of your loop are just destructuring to nothing 05:17:16 Yes. But the variable says "list has shape of list of three elements" doesn't it? 05:18:37 The basic question is whether NIL has to match something or not. 05:19:26 -!- oconnore [~eric@50.10.172.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:19:32 when I have ((nil)), I expect a to receive a lists of whatevers, not just whatevers 05:20:04 <_3b> presumably 'why it works' is that it sees no variables are bound, and just completely ignores the input 05:20:18 <_3b> whether that is 'correct' according to the spec or not is harder to answer :) 05:20:30 _3b: That puzzled me. Hard. 05:21:01 daniel__ [~daniel@p50829EFB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:26 anyway 05:21:57 I'm trying to language-lawer something about DESTRUCTURING-BIND but it will take me a while ;) 05:23:25 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 05:24:28 -!- daniel [~daniel@p50829A3C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:24:52 LOOP is a strange beast. 05:28:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:30:05 Apparently it was last seen in Australian dividing something by zero 05:30:43 Australia, even 05:31:21 kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.8] has joined #lisp 05:31:21 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.8] has quit [Changing host] 05:31:21 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:31:48 -!- sixpoint8 [sixpoint8@d-ip-129-15-78-81.cs.ou.edu] has left #lisp 05:33:12 sixpoint8 [sixpoint8@d-ip-129-15-78-81.cs.ou.edu] has joined #lisp 05:37:50 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit 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[~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:12:28 good morning 08:13:06 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 08:16:03 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-kdyrvcptwmnebuuf] has joined #lisp 08:16:52 b14ck_ [~b14ck@cpe-72-129-70-245.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:17:14 -!- b14ck_ is now known as b14ck 08:17:28 Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-17-245.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:17:37 Hi everyone. 08:17:50 I've got a couple questions about lisp in general that I was hoping someone could answer. 08:18:11 I've recently started reading 'land of lisp' (which has been really awesome so far), and I'm trying to get more into lisp development. 08:18:39 However, it seems that the information about lisp on the web is pretty fragmented. I've seen various dialects, and many don't seem actively developed or anything. 08:18:58 My main question is: what sort of LISP is popular and actively developped? 08:19:16 And also--is there any sort of like--PyPI (or CPAN) equivalent for any of the LISP languages? 08:21:25 www.quicklisp.org 08:21:59 Oh awesome, that looks really recent too :o 08:22:25 Any other advice for a starting lisper? :) 08:22:32 yes: use emacs/slime 08:22:51 <_3b> b14ck: this channel (and land of lisp mostly) is about common lisp 08:22:53 Any advantage over using vim for that? I've primarily been a vim guy for a while. 08:23:23 _3b: yah, I figured it was. I just saw multiple common lisp implemntations online, and nothing like 'python.org' for common lisp. 08:23:35 <_3b> slime is a very nice way to interact with a running lisp from the editor 08:23:43 So I wasn't sure if the language wasn't still developed, or what the official development status was, or anything. 08:23:45 <_dnb_> b14ck: people keep talking about slimv 08:23:52 <_dnb_> that might be path of least resistance 08:23:57 <_3b> the vim equivalents don't seem to be able to overcome the limitations of vimscript enough to compete well 08:24:13 Ok. 08:24:18 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.39.5] has joined #lisp 08:24:20 I'll give slime a look :) 08:24:29 <_dnb_> turn viper on in emacs 08:24:31 <_3b> the language 'common lisp' is standardized, so all the implementations worth using implement that spec 08:24:32 <_dnb_> that's what I do 08:24:35 b14ck: if you're using linux, try sbcl.. it's a very popular Common Lisp implementation 08:24:40 <_dnb_> combine that with paredit and slime, well 08:24:44 <_dnb_> it's fun :) 08:25:13 <_3b> people continue to improve the implementations aside from that, improving performance, new platforms, new implementation specific extras, etc 08:25:26 Oh I see. 08:25:38 Sorry for my ignorance, I'm pretty new to all this. 08:26:25 <_dnb_> b14ck: I'm learning too; I'm not so bothered about which lisp: cmucl, clisp, sbcl -- you can look them up and get an idea about what fits into what 08:26:29 -!- muddyferret_ [~muddyferr@11.Red-88-25-34.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: muddyferret_] 08:26:36 <_dnb_> I guess stick with clisp while you do lol 08:26:46 _dnb_: awesome. I just figured that they each required various syntaxes or something. 08:27:15 I'm used to doing c or python stuff, where most people use gcc or cpython, and it's pretty standardized in that regard. So I never had to think about it or whatever. 08:27:41 Also--what do you all think if "Land of Lisp"? I've been reading it, and really love it so far. 08:27:55 <_dnb_> well, I'm only on ch7 08:27:58 <_dnb_> I think it's great 08:28:07 Awesome! 08:28:14 -!- Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-17-245.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 08:28:17 Yah, the author is pretty amazing. 08:28:27 <_dnb_> you get the lie of the land so to speak: various important functions print/read, etc 08:30:00 freddie111 [~user@ppp-94-64-139-69.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:30:43 The introductory chapter got me so hyped up. 08:30:44 heh 08:31:10 I've been wanting to dive into lisp for a long time, but have always been busy with other things. But I was recently reading paul graham's "hackers and painters" and decided to give it an actual go. 08:31:21 And "land of lisp" seemed like a good introduction. 08:32:10 <_dnb_> b14ck: yes, I'd go for it; there are several fantastic resources for learning lisp/scheme; some are best done if you already know how to program 08:32:41 I'd like to think I'm a pretty decent programmer, I hope! 08:33:49 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:34:55 rubear [~miv@94.231.123.31] has joined #lisp 08:35:49 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:41:34 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:43:10 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.43.227] has joined #lisp 08:43:34 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #lisp 08:45:23 -!- quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:48:01 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:52:22 b14ck: There are many ways to program in Lisp. I think it is important for you to read other people's code to see how to use the language to get things done. 08:52:54 I had a lot of fun and enlightenment with PAIP and Practical Common Lisp. 08:53:46 Then, IRC and CL blogs have a lot of interesting hacking to turn you into a pretty decent programmer in case you were not already :) 08:55:58 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.39.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:56:02 I wish there was a service "lispimp my code" where people would write their version of an algorithm they think is "lispy", and where anyone could comment/fix/lispify more the code so that the best approaches become known. 08:56:28 -!- smka [~s@77.28.116.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:57:50 -!- sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:58:00 -!- rubear [~miv@94.231.123.31] has left #lisp 08:58:21 Hurrah for wikis. 08:58:38 beach [~user@116.118.46.79] has joined #lisp 08:58:58 <_dnb_> Huzzah! 08:59:19 Good afternoon everyone! 09:00:05 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 09:00:07 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:01:07 <_dnb_> Evening 09:01:09 rubear [~miv@94.231.123.31] has joined #lisp 09:01:25 sm` [~s@77.29.18.250] has joined #lisp 09:01:52 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:02:46 Axioplase_: that sounds like a fun webapp :) 09:02:55 Hun [~Hun@host-80-81-19-29.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:05 -!- rubear is now known as asdasdasdad 09:03:09 Zhivago: well, technology never made products by itself 09:03:39 -!- asdasdasdad is now known as rubear 09:04:23 happy new year lispers 09:04:33 -!- rubear [~miv@94.231.123.31] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 09:04:37 kiuma: Thanks! You too! 09:04:46 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-66.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:05:07 valium97582 [~daniel@189-47-119-173.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 09:05:13 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 09:05:58 let this a lisp year :) 09:06:18 francogrex [~user@109.130.13.188] has joined #lisp 09:06:42 <_dnb_> has lisp's time finally come? 09:06:45 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:06:58 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:07:39 quicklisp works on ecl-10.7.1 (windows) HEY!! Finally 09:09:14 I think partly depends from us :) 09:10:24 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.13.188] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11:39 hello beach 09:13:08 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:14:44 Hey mvilleneuve. I am just getting my home computer up an running today. There are still a few installations to go before I can become comfortable working on SICL again, though. And then I'll have to do the same thing at work. 09:15:23 mvilleneuve: I noticed your commit for LOOP, but I haven't looked at it yet. 09:17:53 I wish Lisp's time never comes. That's more money for us. 09:18:24 beach: OK. I'm curious about your opinion about how to refactor the code (maybe including the 'clause' class hierarchy) 09:19:12 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:19:47 mvilleneuve: I will definitely have a look. 09:19:47 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.43.227] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:20:29 adeht: where do you get that ? 09:25:30 -!- dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dakeyras] 09:26:41 miv [~miv@94.231.123.31] has joined #lisp 09:27:50 timor [~timor@port-92-195-90-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:19 -!- miv is now known as rubear 09:28:37 What happened to the Minion bot ? 09:29:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:33:20 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B479.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:49 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:36:09 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:39:26 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-plyyszvvphrpdchg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:40:50 -!- balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:41:55 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 09:43:56 zobbo [~ian@223.33.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:31 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:50 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:49:16 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:35 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 09:51:01 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 09:51:48 billitch [~billitch@78.250.195.180] has joined #lisp 09:52:30 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-167-227.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:31 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gxcejudfqckolhot] has joined #lisp 09:52:31 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-gxcejudfqckolhot] has quit [Changing host] 09:52:31 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 09:54:31 beyeran [~apb@p54A91668.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:54:34 yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:55:50 Vichfret [~Vicfred@189.143.77.127] has joined #lisp 09:57:15 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:57:49 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 09:59:04 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.123.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:59:04 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.195.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:59:14 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 10:01:20 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-fivzmjhgwvcdmpbn] has joined #lisp 10:03:11 ebzzry [~ebzzry@203.213.202.186] has joined #lisp 10:04:43 H4ns````` [~user@pD4B9EEBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:52 -!- H4ns````` is now known as H4ns 10:05:50 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E7F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:06:37 snearch [~snearch@f053001157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:06:45 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9EEBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:06:49 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:07:00 What is STRING-TO-OCTETS in CCL? 10:07:15 bsod1 [~osa1@81.214.240.169] has joined #lisp 10:07:51 ebzzry: try (apropos "string-to-octets") 10:08:09 or (apropos "STRING-TO-OCTECTS") 10:08:11 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:08:49 jdz: yeah. or (apropos "string-too-octets") maybe. 10:09:12 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 10:13:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:13:45 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:15:21 -!- stalinho [~eduardo@189.60.2.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:16:16 billitch [~billitch@78.250.195.180] has joined #lisp 10:17:38 -!- kneferilis [~sp@nb1-210.static.cytanet.com.cy] has quit [] 10:18:15 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 10:18:45 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:20:01 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:20:24 #e 10:20:27 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:25:58 aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has joined #lisp 10:32:31 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:32:34 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:33:08 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:33:11 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:37:15 heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:43 stalinho [~eduardo@189.60.2.212] has joined #lisp 10:38:57 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 10:40:20 -!- stalinho [~eduardo@189.60.2.212] has quit [Client Quit] 10:40:29 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:40:52 wvdschel [~wim@sundiata.elis.UGent.be] has joined #lisp 10:40:52 -!- wvdschel [~wim@sundiata.elis.UGent.be] has quit [Changing host] 10:40:52 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 10:41:15 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 10:42:15 DrForr [~drforr@pool-98-112-230-87.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:28 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47:51 -!- fnordus [~dnall@S01060023693bfad4.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:50:45 quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:25 smka [~s@77.29.18.250] has joined #lisp 10:59:33 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:02:14 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-205.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 11:02:34 -!- sm` [~s@77.29.18.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:02:36 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:07:53 -!- b14ck [~b14ck@cpe-72-129-70-245.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 11:10:11 yonatan_ [~yonatan@46-116-176-100.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:15:46 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoy@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21:48 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-fozqwzmkukiekdxu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:24:04 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:24:18 beyeran_ [~apb@p54A9121E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:24:46 When trying to install mcclim with quiclisp on SBCL 1.0.45 (x86-64), I get: failed AVER: (AND (NULL (TN-READS TN)) (NULL (TN-WRITES TN))), This is probably a bug in SBCL itself. (Alternatively,....) 11:24:57 Any ideas what to do about that? 11:25:14 beach: SBCL 1.0.45 has a bug that breaks compilation of CLX. 1.0.45. has fixed it. 11:25:18 1.0.44 does not have the bug. 11:25:38 I expect 1.0.46 sometime soon. 11:25:58 *sigh*, OK, thanks Xach. 11:27:02 -!- beyeran [~apb@p54A91668.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:27:39 it was a bug in sbcl itself! 11:31:16 Got it. Thanks! 11:33:20 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:36 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:35 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.195.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:39:40 billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.76] has joined #lisp 11:44:20 earlgray_ [~EarlGray@79.124.244.129] has joined #lisp 11:44:23 dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:45:12 DarthShrine_ [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 11:45:13 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45:28 -!- DarthShrine_ is now known as DarthShrine 11:46:06 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47:26 -!- _dnb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:48:04 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:48:13 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.119.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:50:12 lambda-nil [~jhuelga@142.Red-80-33-85.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:41 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:50:53 |3b|` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:51:38 -!- beyeran_ [~apb@p54A9121E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:53:01 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:53:07 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@46-116-176-100.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:53:09 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:58:44 beyeran [~apb@p54A9121E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:59:26 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.119.164] has joined #lisp 11:59:42 Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has joined #lisp 12:00:26 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 12:02:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-231-3.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:02:40 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@76.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:09:59 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B479.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:10:21 -!- quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:11:59 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@dhcp-077-249-149-030.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:13:49 surrounder [~surrounde@dhcp-077-249-149-030.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 12:18:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-231-3.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:19:00 -!- blowers [~ian@223.33.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:20:31 francogrex [~user@109.130.13.188] has joined #lisp 12:21:38 Yuuhi [benni@p54839C90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:47 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1826.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:22:03 Alexandria git broken? 12:22:31 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-138-205.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:22:37 Nope. Just funky with http. 12:25:41 (Alexandria from ASDF-INSTALL definitely seems to be failing) 12:27:00 easyE: support for asdf-install is dimishing. 12:27:06 -!- lambda-nil [~jhuelga@142.Red-80-33-85.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:27:09 easyE: you may be better off with quicklisp 12:27:29 quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:37 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1CD5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:44 People should let the URIs still resolve. 12:28:41 "should", but they don't 12:28:47 As a developer trying to adapt ABCL to various packages, I often need to be able to work with more current source than last months. 12:29:08 Especially if I have a prayer of maintainers accepting my patches. 12:29:30 so just install those specific packages by hand, quicklisp accomodates that 12:29:48 what does the term "inofficial" in a release tarball URL mean to you? 12:30:29 depends on whether the author is known for making regular releases or not :) 12:30:31 lichtblau: you asking me? 12:30:53 That the tarball may or or may not contain a usuable version. But I expect a URI to resolve. 12:31:48 (or to be forwarded or refused via an error distinguishable from 404. 12:32:04 no, it means that the maintainers of the library never made it asdf-installable in the first place, and random people occasionally edited cliki to put up a tarball. 12:33:09 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:33:57 mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 12:33:58 Certainly where there is such a clear lack of provenance from the CLiki linkage, okay. But the maintainers can still keep a resolvable snapshot at the URI. 12:34:11 But I guess that's asking too much. 12:34:15 easyE: it is. 12:34:22 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34:38 easyE: on the up side, you can fix the problem yourself. 12:34:49 Still, a mapping to a valid tarball maintained via a URI rewriting service would be useful. 12:35:05 H4ns: agreed. 12:35:17 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-175-221.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:35:41 Did the mid-2010 CLiki code overhaul get done? 12:37:02 -!- osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:33 -!- sixpoint8 [sixpoint8@d-ip-129-15-78-81.cs.ou.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:37:33 -!- MikeSeth [~me@unaffiliated/mikeseth] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:37:33 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 12:37:33 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [*.net *.split] 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[~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-66.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:04:52 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1CD5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:06:32 -!- osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:06:49 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:07:58 Is there a canonical GUI+Widgets library for CL? I'm currently using CL-GTK2. 15:08:30 didi: People who sell CL GUI software seem to use CAPI. 15:09:00 didi, how is CL-GTK2? is it documented enough? 15:09:03 -!- sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:07 didi: I've heard nice things about Ltk, but I've never tried it. 15:09:17 sacho [~sacho@46.10.11.232] has joined #lisp 15:09:20 sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has joined #lisp 15:09:27 sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:00 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:42 gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:29 Hmm, I don't think I have heard of Wade Hennessey's book "Common Lisp" before. Have you? 15:14:16 Is its cover black? 15:15:06 It is colorful. 15:15:56 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:16:52 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:17:41 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:19:31 Dranik: Hum. It could be better, but the examples help. Also, devhelp for C GTK+ is your friend. 15:19:53 didi, I thought so :-) 15:20:06 -!- gko [gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 15:20:58 -!- ZabaQ1 is now known as ZabaQ 15:21:13 Xach: Thank you. 15:21:59 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:26:14 -!- aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has quit [Quit: home sweet home ... be free!] 15:26:16 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1CD5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:32 -!- snearch [~snearch@f053001157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 15:33:01 -!- billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:33:05 Xach: CAPI seems nice, although too restrict as far as I can see. 15:33:29 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.105.133] has joined #lisp 15:33:39 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 15:33:39 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:200:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 15:33:39 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 15:33:53 is there a slime+emacs binding to jump to the defun of an identifier? 15:33:59 can't find it 15:34:20 who-binds? 15:34:41 yvdriess: M-. 15:34:53 didi: Restricted in what sense? 15:34:57 thank god 15:35:07 seems I was only looking at the C^ bindings 15:36:09 Xach: For one, it seems to need LispWorks. 15:37:20 kanru [~kanru@114-45-227-219.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:15 from experience, having tried multiple UI frameworks in lisp, CAPI is really nice 15:39:19 but indeed, lispworks :/ 15:42:35 billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.76] has joined #lisp 15:43:02 fe[nl]ix: cool, we should start keeping a NEWS file. I'll update it with the changes since the last release soon. 15:43:37 Is there a standard way to define a callback for when a stream becomes readable? 15:43:47 naryl: no. 15:43:49 fe[nl]ix: also, if you don't feel like documenting reload-foreign-libraries in the manual, please create a bug in launchpad 15:44:38 fe[nl]ix: are you cffi's maintainer ? 15:44:49 galdor: luis and I 15:45:04 luis: I did add an entry in the manual 15:45:48 milkpost [~milkpost@cb9-67-84.cloudburst9.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:52 -!- kanru [~kanru@114-45-227-219.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:53 I sent you an email about the bitfield patch 15:46:06 at sionescu@cddr.org 15:46:13 not sure if you got it 15:47:50 galdor: good thing you reminded me about it, but it's better if you send it to cffi-devel 15:48:24 I'm not on cffi-devel, that's why :) 15:48:33 but I'll subsribe next time 15:48:43 *subscribe 15:49:23 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 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gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-66.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 16:06:25 Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:40 -!- Rearden [~John@209-217-211-155.northland.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:51 n2linux [~n2linux@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:09 quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:23 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-98-229-0-52.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:24 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:11:24 Lisp coding is a bit more comfortable without syntax highlighting it seems. 16:12:39 :O 16:12:39 i have font-lock-maximum-decoration set to NIL, it still highlights some things 16:13:02 i find highlighting of strings and comments to be useful 16:13:17 -!- earlgray_ [~EarlGray@79.124.244.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:13:51 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 16:14:17 -!- quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 16:15:27 fe[nl]ix: you added it to the dictionary but didn't create an actual entry. 16:15:55 I'll add one then 16:16:07 -!- zobbo [~ian@223.33.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has left #lisp 16:16:14 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:16:23 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:19:35 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:19:39 kiuma_ [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:20:17 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 16:20:28 -!- kiuma_ [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:20:48 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:23:38 peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:24:14 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:24:46 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has joined #lisp 16:25:54 if your documentation-fu is high, feel free to address the issue of saving FFI code to images in the Foreign Libraries chapter. :) 16:26:57 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:18 fe[nl]ix: lp bug #622264 is relevant 16:28:04 -!- peddie [~peddie@XVM-107.MIT.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:32:09 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-66.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:32:55 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 16:34:03 sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-98-229-0-52.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:23 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@c-98-229-0-52.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:35:56 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:36:07 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:38:42 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-185-64.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 16:39:47 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yvdriess [~Beef@soft85.vub.ac.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:05:45 Perite [~androirc@m262336d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:51 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:18 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:46 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 17:10:04 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:13:57 -!- myu2 [~myu2@v077103.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:29 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-135.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:16:53 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:18:07 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:20:09 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 17:20:18 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-135.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:49 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:22:03 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 17:23:14 Caffeine [~satanama@cable-10-157-244.b2b2c.ca] has joined #lisp 17:23:26 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:23:41 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-135.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:51 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:19 I have a 'little' problem... I was using clisp while following a book. But now that I want to really use it, I quickly notice it lacks tail call optimization. (apparently it only does it on compiled code) Is there a good common lisp *REPL* with TCO? 17:25:43 Caffeine: sbcl is quite popular. 17:25:45 Why do you want TCO? 17:26:08 Caffeine: If you want to stick with clisp, you can also just compile things in the repl as well. 17:26:30 schmrkc: thanks, I'll look at it 17:26:44 Zhivago: how do you make recursive code w/o tco? :P 17:26:52 If your function FOO can only run to completion if TCO is happening, (compile 'foo) 17:26:55 caffeine: Normally. 17:27:17 caffeine: So, why do you want TCO? 17:27:19 Xach: hmm ok, but I thought it would be annoying 17:28:01 Caffeine: another option is not to write Common Lisp programs that rely on TCO to work properly. 17:28:10 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:28:36 and tco in clisp works only for self-calls 17:30:38 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:31:40 caffeine: If you don't know why you want TCO then it's probably time to think about it. 17:32:09 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-98-229-0-52.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:32:44 Bronsa [~bronsa@host51-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:33:19 Zhivago: I don't know..I've been taught scheme using tons of tco... It was just normal for me to try to write my procedure using recursion and tco... 17:33:43 caffeine: Then you might want to use scheme. 17:33:46 I know cl isn't scheme .. 17:34:01 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:34:04 -!- sabayonuser2 is now known as osoleve 17:34:47 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:47 -!- sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:51 Personally I like dependable TCO, but you need to think about what problems it solves and how they should be expressed in languages without TCO. 17:35:07 The main reason to rely on TCO is for unbounded iteration. 17:35:21 "Does Common Lisp look like a Scheme? Then why you try to TCO it like a Scheme?" 17:35:22 But you have other mechanisms for that ... so 17:36:03 And if your recursion is bounded, then you probably don't need TCO, unless the bound is too high. 17:36:13 -!- ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@106.86-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:36:20 sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has joined #lisp 17:37:29 milkpost_ [~milkpost@cb9-67-84.cloudburst9.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:26 pnq [~nick@ACA305B1.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 17:38:55 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@cb9-67-84.cloudburst9.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:39:04 carlocci [~nes@93.37.214.197] has joined #lisp 17:39:09 I was counting a predicate's hits on 35000 numbers... I'll try to do it iteratively. 17:39:31 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:35 What are biggest Lisp dialects btw? 17:39:49 1. Scheme 2. Common Lisp 3. Clojure or something like that? 17:39:49 qfr: Common Lisp 17:39:52 Oh 17:40:10 I'm going to pretend that by "biggest" you meant "fattest". 17:40:15 Emacs Lisp 17:40:34 biTT [~frinnn@i59F608BF.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:39 Urgh, I even omitted the article 17:40:54 Xach: that wouldn't really hold. they listed scheme as #1 17:41:02 I meant, "which Lisp dialects have the most users?" 17:41:22 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:42 qfr: I would also guess emacs lisp. 17:41:58 JavaScript! 17:42:47 I don't think that javascript qualifies, although it has many similarities. 17:43:16 does Scheme qualify? 17:43:18 I just assume that tco optimization, everywhere, if an implementation doesn't do it, i shouldn't be using it anyway 17:43:43 stassats: Yes, I think so. 17:44:17 though it has many dissimilarities 17:44:58 With javascript? Sure. 17:45:03 -!- quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 17:45:11 with other lisps 17:45:28 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:45:41 Other lisps tend to differ from other lisps. 17:45:55 so, what makes lisp a lisp? 17:46:20 Remember you can't count racket as scheme no more. 17:46:27 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:39 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-218-244.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:46:44 I thought Scheme was fairly Lispy, just with a stronger focus on recursion/pure FP elements? 17:46:48 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-bcmzsbgximlalpvk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:46:51 stassats: Well, macros seem to be one fundamental feature. 17:47:02 qfr: What does "fairly lispy" even mean? 17:47:22 lispy clearly means lots of parenthesis 17:47:38 ah yes 17:47:43 that go where you don't put them in C. 17:47:47 S-expressions, defun, lambda, loop etc? 17:47:57 drdo: do broken parentheses count? as in XML 17:48:01 stassats haha 17:48:08 qfr: Well then schemes qualify. 17:48:15 stassats: No, that is totally readable, unlike those horrible parenthesis 17:48:21 schmrkc: it doesn't scheme has no defun 17:48:22 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.162.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:48:27 oh riht. 17:48:33 and maybe no LOOP either in the standard? 17:48:33 and no loop 17:48:42 darned. 17:48:47 atleast autolisp has defun. 17:49:10 scheme has DO. 17:49:26 -!- sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:49:29 maybe for a language to be a lisp it has to be able to send an IRC channel into a discussion about if it is one or not 17:50:17 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.163.135] has joined #lisp 17:52:01 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:11 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 17:56:07 By the way, what's that upper case symbol name thing in CL all about? I was told you can turn it off somewhere but it struck me as rather archaic 17:56:50 *Caffeine* seconds that 17:56:59 qfr: Some terminals were so poor they couldn't afford lowercase. 17:57:35 Do other Lisp dialects deal with this in a different fashion? 17:57:44 qfr: Yes. 17:57:53 Somebody told me that Clojure and Arc are essentially the most modern Lisps 17:58:06 qfr: You should punch that person in the face, but with only half a fist. 17:58:09 he advised me to study Clojure over CL hmm 17:58:28 qfr: Clojure is interesting  Arc less so. 17:58:32 I don't know anything about Clojure really 17:58:34 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.64.109.35] has joined #lisp 17:58:39 But adeht didn't like it I think 17:58:54 Clojure changes too often 17:59:12 Yeah, it's still pretty young and in-flux. 17:59:21 CL is "stable". 17:59:52 stable means living with the mistakes of the past 18:00:10 WonTu [~WonTu@p57B53338.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:12 it means living without mistakes of the future 18:00:24 -!- WonTu [~WonTu@p57B53338.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:00:38 the glass is half evaluated, half applied. 18:01:32 isn't homoiconicity the principal defining characteristic of lisp? 18:02:04 Don_Omar [~xdccMule@109.117.189.118] has joined #lisp 18:02:53 -!- sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:03:10 sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has joined #lisp 18:03:21 is lisp the only homoiconic language? 18:03:58 What about AMD64 assembly? 18:04:02 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1CD5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:04:09 Is it really interesting to try to find The One And Only defining characteristic? 18:04:18 prolog, too, to some extent. 18:04:33 drdo: is it "lisp is lisp"? 18:04:59 stassats: oh good name 18:05:25 lisl is not lisp 18:05:29 hi 18:05:43 is there a way to access serial ports under linux via Lisp? 18:05:47 thanks 18:05:52 yes 18:05:57 just open it as a file 18:06:19 Everything Is A File (TM) 18:06:43 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:06:43 !list 18:07:01 homofileicity? 18:07:46 -!- Don_Omar [~xdccMule@109.117.189.118] has left #lisp 18:07:56 Files as Files 18:08:04 That's the model of the future 18:09:06 stassats: that's ok, but I need to configure it like using tcsetattr 18:09:28 then just use tcsetattr 18:09:42 Don_Omar [~xdccMule@109.117.189.118] has joined #lisp 18:09:52 !list 18:10:01 So the most popular Lisp after elisp is CL though? 18:10:18 qfr: nobody knows 18:10:31 :o surely somebody has analysed this 18:10:34 Posterdati: if you use ccl, look at ccl:library;serial-streams.lisp 18:10:41 qfr: Who cares? 18:10:45 I do! 18:10:55 Then you go research it 18:11:01 http://langpop.com/ 18:11:01 rme: thanks 18:11:10 Only differentiates between Lisp and Scheme 18:11:11 rme: using sbcl here 18:11:13 -!- hlavaty` [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:11:22 CL is the most popular programming language in my apartment 18:11:33 Posterdati: SB-POSIX:TCSETATTR 18:11:44 stassats: I doubt that 18:12:06 stassats: aaah ok :) these are system functions 18:12:33 there is also OSICAT-POSIX::TCSETATTR, but it's not exported for some reason 18:14:04 amb007 [~a_bakic@76.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:07 -!- Don_Omar [~xdccMule@109.117.189.118] has quit [Quit: mIRC xdccMule URL: http://www.xdccmule.altervista.org] 18:15:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-171-135.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:18:36 milkpost [~milkpost@wash-06-0026.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:51 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:19:09 -!- milkpost_ [~milkpost@cb9-67-84.cloudburst9.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:25:33 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-171-10.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:26:17 hello 18:26:54 what's the difference regarding implementation performance between a string and a simple-base-string ? 18:27:19 i somehow fail to get this from the spec 18:27:57 billitch: That's not really something the spec could know. 18:28:33 billitch: it may take less space 18:28:48 i guess that would be the same difference between simple-vector and a vector 18:29:12 sellout: let's say i'm interested in sbcl's behaviour then 18:29:24 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:29:35 yes, being simple means its accessors may be simpler and may be inlined 18:29:47 because it does not seem to accept a string litteral as a simple-base-string 18:30:39 sbcl reads strings not as base-strings 18:32:22 stassats: ok, coerce does the job, but is there a reason for this subtlety ? 18:32:36 it's easier 18:33:33 you can't know beforehand that you won't read any non-base-char, so you can't allocate a simple-base-string, only to convert it afterwards 18:33:43 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@187.114.113.141] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:56 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:49 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:34:49 -!- Perite [~androirc@m262336d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC] 18:35:54 of course there are other methods, like having two vectors for strings, one for lower 8-bits, and the other for the remaining bits 18:36:08 but it's not "simple" 18:37:16 ok thanks for the explaination, i've also read http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/sbcl-internals/Character-and-String-Types.html 18:37:27 -!- sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:02 -!- sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:39:04 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1CD5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:19 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:41:19 -!- quasi_ [u404@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-osmmlbuqocxgrpvx] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:41:43 X-02 [~kohei@p2009-ipbf407kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:41:59 quasi_ [u404@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-silycsgcdsodrmjo] has joined #lisp 18:43:24 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-218-244.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:43:51 sellout [~greg@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 18:46:02 schmrkc, ripped: haha 18:46:27 tic: hey ripped man. 18:46:35 tic: You still on the bus? 18:46:49 schmrkc, heya. :) what was that about? nope, I'm back home. 18:47:27 tic: it was something about BMI iirc. 18:47:36 and lispers not being fit. 18:47:44 oh 18:47:47 vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 18:47:48 you mean what was the bus about. 18:47:50 schmrkc, dunno, my BMI is ~28. :P 18:47:51 well well! 18:48:02 schmrkc, no, the conversation. we're getting off-topic for #lisp though. 18:48:08 i learn so many new things about lispers 18:48:13 hahah 18:48:42 a word of curse! 18:50:05 -!- warzl [~warzl@159.153.4.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:50:09 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50:18 stassats: is there a documentation for sb-posix? 18:50:26 ZabaQ [~Zaba@106.86-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:30 does it need one? 18:51:12 rlinuxguy2 [~rlinuxguy@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:38 -!- rlinuxguy2 [~rlinuxguy@c-24-125-178-151.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:02 tic: you in sthlm or what? 18:52:14 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:17 chrnybo, gbg 18:52:23 er, schmrkc. just got back today. 18:52:30 been hacking the non-Lisp today. 18:52:40 vowels are cheap 18:52:47 :D 18:53:23 *schmrkc* has also been playing in the non-lisp. 18:53:40 or did we ever decide what was lisp? 18:54:54 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 18:55:13 colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-19-58.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:55:17 but I did write some Lisp code two days ago. Speaking of which: what's the equivalent of Python's file.read()? (loop for c = (read-char s) collecting c into str finally return (coerce str 'string))? 18:55:26 er, something built-in instead of that? 18:55:31 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:55:45 -!- n2linux [~n2linux@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:01 alexandria:read-file-into-string 18:56:58 thanks. 18:57:09 that was what I was looking for. wonder how alexandria does it... 18:57:22 M-. 18:57:26 oh wait no SLIME for the tic. 18:57:26 pah 18:57:34 -!- vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:57:38 Why not slime, son? 18:57:48 Limp, the Vim IDE 18:59:10 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 18:59:20 aha, read-sequence and write-sequence. sounds ... convoluted. 18:59:30 Perite [~androirc@m562336d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:00 it does? 19:00:07 Limp is unmantained (I've written this right?) 19:00:12 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 19:00:16 But there's Slimv 19:00:16 unmaintained 19:00:17 valium97582, mhm. I know. :-/ (I 19:00:25 unticed 19:00:35 Yups. 19:00:41 dlowe: thanks 19:00:45 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@wash-06-0026.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:00:56 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:01:02 I'll have a look at slimv and see what it does right and what I should do. or maybe switch over to slimv 19:01:11 abandoned, lost, banished, exiled, rejected, unloved, uncared for 19:01:23 oh, wait. It's vi. Who cares? :D 19:01:29 :( 19:01:37 (j/k) 19:01:47 tic: or better, switch to slime 19:02:10 tic: Jump ship, the emacs ship has a jacuzzi, a heated pool, and anything you may want can be conjured 19:02:12 stassats, if slime wasn't emacs... 19:02:22 drdo, it can, but it's just way too much work 19:02:32 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 19:02:41 I'll see if I can hack Vimpulse into submission. 19:03:20 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 19:03:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:03:27 and making limp, or whatever, on par with slime is less work? 19:03:43 stassats: well... 19:03:46 I don't need on par 19:03:52 better? 19:04:12 it's "the features of slime I need [in vim]" vs "the features of Vim I need [in emacs]" 19:04:16 -!- colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-19-58.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:04:36 there's a modal-mode.el. anyone used it? 19:04:39 What does vim do that emacs doesn't? 19:04:45 colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-19-58.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:04:52 provide a nice text editor. 19:04:56 Yeah. 19:05:09 +1 19:05:45 Now stuff that's actually true 19:05:46 beep. 19:05:46 but vim doesn't provide a basis for old and unfunny jokes 19:06:36 "d/foo", "gqap", "c3w", "V", etc. 19:07:05 (this will probably become editor wars.) 19:07:06 You can type those strings in emacs too 19:07:18 let's quote the guy who wrote some fedora book: "and, anyways, vim shortcuts can be performed with less than three arms" 19:07:34 s/shortcuts/commands 19:07:47 valium97582: So vim is good for one-fingered people? 19:07:50 stassats: your prescience is remarkable. 19:08:53 drdo: I don't know, I have ten fingers. I'm unable to reproduce the situation. :/ 19:09:09 tomas__ [~chatzilla@g226049094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:09:29 -!- tomas__ [~chatzilla@g226049094.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 19:09:40 lol 19:09:58 valium97582, good point. I actually like my wrists. 19:10:39 but, i can do handstand pushups on my fingertips, all thanks to Emacs 19:11:08 I play the guitar, I bet it has done more for and to my fingers than emacs ever has 19:11:52 and vi users play balalaika, it has only three strings 19:12:11 stassats: Are you crazy? You need like 3 fingers to play that 19:12:19 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 19:13:45 -!- Perite [~androirc@m562336d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC] 19:15:10 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA305B1.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:15:18 stassats, actually, we play the banjo... 19:16:15 tic: You haev a good night there. It's bed time here! 19:16:23 I like playing the monochord. 19:16:32 schmrkc, sleep tight! 19:18:17 dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:40 ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@106.86-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:49 -!- colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-19-58.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 19:21:54 -!- sentry [~sentry@ec2-72-44-49-66.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:22:14 speaking of editors, whatever happened to climacs? 19:22:22 nothing 19:23:08 exactly 19:23:26 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@106.86-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:23:43 -!- ZabaQ1 is now known as ZabaQ 19:24:05 -!- billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:26:27 billitch [~billitch@78.250.195.180] has joined #lisp 19:29:20 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:29:25 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:29:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:29:25 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 19:30:29 heloehlo_ [~bfouts@24.30.125.111] has joined #lisp 19:31:47 skeptomai [~cb@ip65-47-31-86.z31-47-65.customer.algx.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:28 -!- heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:34:13 -!- dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: dakeyras] 19:34:29 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 19:38:05 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:40:32 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 19:44:05 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-218-244.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 19:44:59 kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:34 User388 [~User@host86-129-86-251.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:34 -!- User388 [~User@host86-129-86-251.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:52 revel [~revel@host86-129-86-251.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:05 -!- sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:55 sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has joined #lisp 19:51:21 I'm trying to write a polynomial evaluation program, e.g. (2x + 3)(3y +2x^2) 19:51:23 and I was just trying to think of a way to go about it. 19:53:00 ? 19:53:03 what about it ? 19:53:05 in lisp ? 19:53:08 yes 19:53:21 when in doubt, use brute force :) 19:54:14 balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:21 How do you make a slot's default value equal to it's *concrete* class name? 19:55:03 -!- lambda-nil [~jhuelga@142.Red-80-33-85.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:55:19 concrete? 19:55:27 One way is not to use a slot but just add add a reader method 19:55:48 which executes (class-name (class-of obj)) 19:55:51 mehsiu [~user@c-67-173-111-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:12 why would one need that, anyway? 19:56:19 another is to add a method on initialize-instance; though I'd wonder what you need that kind of thing for 19:56:39 Well I can think of scenarios 19:56:59 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.64.109.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:57:32 the class is irc module and it has a slot for it's name. I found that 4 in 5 modules are used with it's name equal to it's class name. 19:57:39 *irc bot module 19:58:09 Uh that sounds like the wrong kind of magic 19:59:29 mimi [~mimi@94-225-197-41.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:59:42 -!- mimi [~mimi@94-225-197-41.access.telenet.be] has quit [Client Quit] 20:00:39 The exception is when your bot has a few instances of one module 20:01:02 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:01:03 lazyBum [~mimi@94-225-197-41.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:01:03 They can't have the same name. But I want to have a default name which is class-unique. 20:01:26 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:01:47 milkpost [~milkpost@wash-static-00-0014.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:19 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:03:10 warzl [~warzl@159.153.4.50] has joined #lisp 20:05:20 -!- sav [~lsd@jagat.xored.org] has left #lisp 20:07:07 -!- lazyBum [~mimi@94-225-197-41.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:07:12 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:08:54 francogrex [~user@109.130.13.188] has joined #lisp 20:09:42 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:10:22 -!- billitch [~billitch@78.250.195.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:10:26 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Client Quit] 20:10:46 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:10:49 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-183-204-63.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:07 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:12:16 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:14:22 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-204-63.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:15:58 lazyBum [~mimi@94-225-197-41.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:16:10 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-249-234.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:16:15 billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.76] has joined #lisp 20:25:28 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 20:28:04 -!- rubear [~miv@94.231.123.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:28:50 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-218-244.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:31:03 -!- revel [~revel@host86-129-86-251.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:32:25 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:27 -!- unkanon_ is now known as unkanon_work 20:33:19 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.161.162] has joined #lisp 20:36:29 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 20:36:58 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@106.86-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:37:26 -!- yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.161.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:39:28 -!- trebor_home [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:42:32 yvdriess [~Beef@109.129.97.49] has joined #lisp 20:43:44 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:44:29 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@wash-static-00-0014.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:44:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:46:36 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host51-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:46:38 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:28 milkpost [~milkpost@wash-static-00-0014.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:54 Bronsa [~bronsa@host228-117-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:49:37 Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-34-51.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:51:52 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host228-117-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:09 Bronsa [~bronsa@host228-117-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:54:54 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:18 -!- smka [~s@77.29.18.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:55:43 mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:41 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-168-72.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:59:50 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-171-10.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:01:31 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:01:38 sm` [~s@77.29.20.34] has joined #lisp 21:03:26 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:13:50 how differnt is sbcl from dwim.hu/partial-eval ? 21:17:42 its IR trasformations with http://dwim.hu/live/hu.dwim.partial-eval/ 21:18:52 -!- billitch [~billitch@62.201.142.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:19:19 at one time i think i heard it was using levente.meszaros/attila.lendvai 's code 21:19:38 sbcl was using it 21:22:09 -!- mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:23:29 -!- unkanon_work [~unkanon@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:23:36 antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:57 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23:57 -!- antgreen` [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:25:25 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:28:28 benny` [~benny@i577A204B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:29:30 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:50 unkanon_work [~unkanon@static-71-249-187-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:47 -!- benny` is now known as benny 21:35:44 dmiles_afk: sbcl doesn't use it and never did 21:36:13 where did sbcl get its first partial-evaluator? 21:36:26 from CMUCL? 21:36:36 oh duh ;) right 21:37:14 well the lively ness (liek type information) that it gets.. was that helped out by the same authors? 21:37:35 EarlGray [~EarlGray@79.124.132.110] has joined #lisp 21:37:42 no 21:38:27 why are you asking? 21:39:16 oh Levente Mészáros was just a speaker at SBCL's 10th Anniversary Workshop 21:40:10 you mentioned one time that the biggest secret to why sbcl does so well is the IR transforms it does 21:40:34 i did? 21:41:24 retrry [~quassel@lan-84-240-18-14.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 21:41:37 dmiles_afk: Given the behavior of the average lisper, there are lots of different implementations of lots of different things flying around. Even of some advanced things. 21:41:37 dmiles_afk: we just did some experiments to show that the dwim pe could produce the hand written CLOS optimizations (and more) 21:41:45 yes.. ...iirc: you said that the ability to determine the data type at compilation time was the most important part 21:42:30 i don't remember whether i said that, but i agree with myself 21:43:21 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 21:43:22 stassats: At least you are consistent. 21:43:23 -!- mcsontos_ [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:38 and it's one of those rare moments i agree with someone 21:43:47 lol 21:43:48 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:43:50 dmiles_afk: well... pe will only work well if you can give it assumptions. the more you can give, the more of the code-path it can evaluate at pe time. the easiest and most efficient of those assumptions is type information 21:44:02 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:44:17 and some type information can be derived automatically 21:45:10 unkanon2 [~unkanon@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:13 sure, it's doing its own type inference while evaluating the code. you just feed in the toplevel type info, most of the time in the form of a literal object as one or more of the aguments of a function call. 21:46:38 attila_lendvai: does it do common subexpression elimination.. based on reified (at compile time) call trees? 21:47:14 ( reified call tree = what an inlining might look like) 21:47:23 also, a pe is really just a (very) smart eval that keeps track of a whole lot of information while running, and is able to delay parts of the evaluation to a later time (so its result is not a literal object but potentially a form that needs further evaluation) 21:47:58 it does a whole lot of things to be any useful, one of them is inlining 21:48:12 -!- unkanon_work [~unkanon@static-71-249-187-201.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:48:15 but levy was working much more on it, I was just brainstorming 21:48:49 ok since some parts are left off for delay.. (two too heavy equialent expressions) the result may be shared if its safe? 21:50:08 yes. it does some tricks based on things like ast node identities to do common subexp elim after inlining 21:50:27 eample might be (progn (print "~A" 'HI (fib 100)) (fib 100)) 21:51:29 if #'fib seems to always do the same thing with the 100 21:51:35 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-226-230-252.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:51:40 but the dwim pe is far from a general cl pe, let alone self aplicable. it's more like a pe API with a partial implementation that tries to be smart but needs to be fixed up if it doesn't produce the desired output 21:51:59 you can annotate that 'fib has no sideffects and then it'll do it 21:52:15 introduces a new variable, etc... 21:53:31 does dwim pe.. have a current bestcase backend? 21:53:51 but on the practical side, it did produce the make-instance optimizations that are done by specific code in sbcl, and it involved inlining generics and such complexities 21:53:52 (that it doent confess to target) 21:53:56 -!- retrry [~quassel@lan-84-240-18-14.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:54:24 dmiles_afk: I don't understand you. what is "current bestcase backend"? 21:54:54 -!- lazyBum [~mimi@94-225-197-41.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 21:56:00 to make an array for instance on one backend it is fast to allocate it.. sence you can query the lengh cheaper than keeping arround the original size variable 21:56:32 on another its cheaper to just pass arround the size variable.. and allocate it on first use 21:57:10 *dmiles_afk* wring out the example 21:57:11 I suspect you mean different evaluation strategies... 21:57:18 correct 21:57:27 again, it's a proof of concept... 21:57:32 some backends would prefer one evaluation strategy over an other 21:58:10 if we ever did a self applicable pe, then we'd go with a subset of cl, most probably with a dynamically typed lambda calculus langauge 21:58:44 yeah where my question was going.. is trying to decide what that subset would look like 21:59:08 but to be able to easily customize the pe algorithms, for now it uses contextl layered methods... 21:59:50 as simple as feasible without seriously damage the expressivity of the subset language 22:00:56 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 22:01:33 we used the pe later to partially evaluate interpreters written in cl using llvm primitives. we have promising proof-of-concepts, but we got stuck at the point where we need to read papers to see how this could be done: 22:01:41 dwim-pe outputs full CL at first .. that is usefull 22:02:15 ( full CL in -> full CL out (but better written) ) 22:02:20 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 22:03:09 "in this case, it is possible to convert tail calls into gotos in a loop, eliminating even the need for TCO" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_passing_style 22:03:51 dmiles_afk: yeah, theoretically. but if you want something practically trustable and useful, then dropping the cruft of CL is advised... 22:04:08 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Client Quit] 22:05:00 if we could wrap our heads around how to turn CPS transformed code into loops, then we could have a working brainfuck compiler based on the dwim pe and a brainfack *interpreter* written in cl 22:05:26 actualy that is a good example .. the more (dolist ...)s the pe produces.. the easier TC's are 22:05:38 but we stopped playing with that... we should get back to it! 22:07:05 I have a vague idea that somehow based on the equivalence of continuation objects, the invocation of a continuation can be turned into a jump 22:07:09 my ideal wouldf be all function calls disappear and the whole program becxomes a chain of (dolist (dolist ...)(dolist ...)s(dolist (dolist ...)s(dolist ...)s...)s)s 22:07:28 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 22:07:56 well, function calls get inlined... which will yield a flat list of primitives, where primitives are what you pick 22:08:40 yeah .. afdter inlineing perhaps locals (let...)s are promoted top the right level 22:08:52 to the right level of scope 22:08:55 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 22:09:22 (so that no return-froms even need exist) 22:09:41 clbuild2: `CCL=ccl clbuild slime` doesn't seem to set my compiler to CCL anymore  what's the right thing? 22:09:54 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:01 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 22:10:40 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:40 BTW  that's a question about clbuild2, not to some user named clbuild2. 22:11:14 -!- fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-191-168-72.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:38 continuation objects themselves represent as ASTs .. I guessing once live-ness is factored .. you are set to save them of to something jumpable 22:12:21 if live-ness dictates.. you can jmp to something that rts's 22:12:44 jump to somerthing that is expected to unwind something 22:15:02 and find out when its unnessisary to even care to keep stack consitency 22:15:02 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:15:36 (those cases are candidate for gotos) 22:15:56 ...but in our case a continuation object consists of a call to the pe with the brainfuck interpreter and brainfuck code in some state as the arguments to pe (including the whole bf heap)... 22:16:08 but I need to revive my memory... 22:16:32 I mean revive my memory with some hacking... but not now 22:16:39 pnq [~nick@ACA3270B.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:10 interesting concept: "heap as an argument" 22:18:23 "the heap as an argument to a function" .. well at least the extent of the heap we know the function is supposed to reach 22:19:43 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:19:43 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:19:44 -!- rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:19:45 -!- qfr [void@unaffiliated/yw] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:19:46 (copied off to the continuation object of course).. but the intesting part attila_lendvai.. is i think pe.. does compute that right? 22:19:48 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:20:03 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:20:07 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:21 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-218-51-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:20:33 s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 22:20:36 pe decides/computes how much of the global bits of code is affected by any function 22:20:57 affected or accessed 22:21:02 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:23 qfr [void@cpc1-stap2-0-0-cust293.12-2.cable.virginmedia.com.siyobik.info] has joined #lisp 22:21:33 global bits of code/global bits of heaped objects 22:21:34 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 22:21:35 Axioplas1_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 22:21:37 mpedersen [~user@70.90.14.154] has joined #lisp 22:21:50 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:22:03 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:23:10 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:10 -!- warzl [~warzl@159.153.4.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:23:10 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-143-124.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:11 i am asking about the dwim-pe to figure out if it is a good idea for a lisp like ABCL to adopt it as a precompiler library 22:23:15 warzl [~warzl@159.153.4.50] has joined #lisp 22:23:20 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@wash-static-00-0014.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:23:28 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-143-124.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:32 so far it seems like a good idea 22:23:57 I'd put it this way: special values may show up in your interpreter that store a whole lot of metadata needed for the pe. in case of brainfuck, which has a heap, the objects in the heap cells may need to store extra info like [can't remember :] 22:24:00 dmiles_afk: not exactly. Partial Evaluation is more about finding out which data is accessible at compile/eval time and evaluating everything that doesn't depend on anything else 22:25:04 p_l|backup: iow, constant folding and common subexpression elimination? those are all just special cases of pe... 22:26:21 again, a pe is really just a (very) smart eval that instead of failing can resort to delaying evaluation to a later time when more info is available 22:27:13 cfolding and cselim is just a handwritten very simple and limited pe 22:27:31 attila_lendvai: and possibly transforming functions into various self-contained thunks to be executed in order to get the side effects only. And I mean whole groups of functions 22:27:35 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1CD5B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:28:02 so a lisp like ABCL and LarkC currently just do a bit of cfolding.. needs more 22:28:21 -so 22:28:26 rabite [~rabite@83.169.3.115] has joined #lisp 22:28:53 p_l|backup: that will be the much welcomed sideffect of inlining 22:30:16 jcw [~jcw@188.142.57.184] has joined #lisp 22:30:41 i wonder how much love and attention sbcl's pe/le get compared to dwim pe/le 22:31:03 le=lazy evaluator transformations 22:32:02 dwim-pe contains the rewrite-to-lazy .. right? 22:32:30 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.13.188] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:38 Huh..is it possible to do a defstruct like a let*? i.e. (defstruct a (var-1 0)(var-2 var-1)) <- With variables dependent on each other? 22:32:58 dmiles_afk: realistically, I don't think the dwim pe (nor anything in sbcl for that matter) can be used in abcl with a reasobanle effort. but then I wouldn't spend my time implementing such a fat core as CL either if I was to implement a language... so, it's subjective. 22:33:15 -!- jcw [~jcw@188.142.57.184] has left #lisp 22:33:21 dmiles_afk: dwim pe and le are completely distinct projects 22:33:36 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:33:36 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-183-204-63.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:43 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-204-63.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:05 and le is really just 2 pages of code... 22:34:18 used in abcl = remove the 200 lines of ABCL's current pe and replace with dwinm-pe 22:34:24 (due to reusing a whole lot from the walker) 22:34:28 boyscare1 [~bm3719@muze.x.rootbsd.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:56 Good morning everyone! 22:35:11 hi 22:35:13 amaron_ [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has joined #lisp 22:35:21 mitre_ [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 22:35:23 devn_ [~defn@rot13.pbqr.org] has joined #lisp 22:35:26 acieroid` [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has joined #lisp 22:35:28 fds_ [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:31 baley_ [~baley@87.229.24.201] has joined #lisp 22:35:34 cky_ [~cky@car.spillville.com] has joined #lisp 22:35:39 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:35:43 cvanduse` [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:52 koning_r1bot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 22:35:53 dmiles_afk: don't forget that the dwim pe is not something you can throw random cl code fragments at and returns always useful and correct results... also, it's heavy on dependencies... and it's never been used too extensively... etc... etc... 22:35:55 sea4ever: (defstruct (a (:constructor make-a (&key (var-1 0) (var-2 var-1)))) var-1 var-2) 22:36:07 but why do you need that? 22:36:15 rokstar_ [~rokstar@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:24 kencausey2 [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 22:36:33 johs_ [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 22:36:34 lnostdal_ [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:46 I wanted to have a struct with an array in it with indeces defined earlier in the struct 22:36:48 naryl1 [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 22:36:51 gnooth_ [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:53 ABCL's current partial evalutor is mostly a constant folder .. and barely a lambda inliner 22:36:57 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- boyscared [~bm3719@muze.x.rootbsd.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- fds [~frankie@fsf/member/fds] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- baley [~baley@87.229.24.201] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- rokstar [~rokstar@d221-90-121.commercial.cgocable.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- koning_robot [~aap@50-208.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- devn [~defn@rot13.pbqr.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:36:58 -!- cky [~cky@car.spillville.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:37:04 -!- mitre_ is now known as mitre 22:37:09 Ralith [~ralith@216.162.199.202] has joined #lisp 22:37:19 -!- boyscare1 is now known as boyscared 22:37:21 dmiles_afk: and while we are at it, I don't think there's anything like a full pe in sbcl. I suspect not even on the api level... it just has some random optimizations, but I'm not an sbcl internals guru 22:37:43 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:37:54 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:38:40 so, it's not like copying a subdir from sbcl and calling a clearly defined api, but more like having n random transformations on ir1 and ir2 that results in pe-like behavior... (again, with a piece of salt) 22:39:01 ah.. yes.. my perfect dreamworld would had been: sbcl had converted their pe into something maintained outside of sbcl 22:39:37 converted/grown 22:40:05 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.122.167] has joined #lisp 22:40:19 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:40:54 dwin-pe at least is attmepts to make something intended to be used for people internalls.. but i understand.. there is no warrenty 22:41:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:41:52 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:58 since dwim-pe has never been officially adopted as anyones pe-of-choice.. it hadnrt ben put thru the ringer yet 22:41:59 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 22:41:59 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:42:20 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:42:30 francogrex [~user@109.130.13.188] has joined #lisp 22:42:59 sea4ever: or (defstruct (a (:constructor make-a (&key var-1 var-2))) (var-1 0) (var-2 var-1)) 22:43:11 stepnem [~stepnem@176.119.broadband10.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:43:17 we have nice dreams about bootstrapping a language/framework through applying a pe on interpreters and emitting llvm code, and by the time we reached that we would have a proper pe... but that wouldn't be cl and it's vapourware anyways... 22:43:19 i'd like to throw random cl code fragments at dwim-pe and have it returns useful and correct results :) 22:43:33 milkpost [~milkpost@wash-static-00-0014.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:05 well correct at least 22:44:24 dmiles_afk: it's not trivial to break it... but it's not something you can put in as a frontend for a compiler either 22:44:28 sea4ever: oh well, the latter doesn't work on Allegro 22:44:30 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:46:43 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:47:08 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:40 attila_lendvai: it dows do lambda inlinining right? 22:48:51 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:48:51 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:49:03 dmiles_afk: sure, inlining is one of the simplest issues 22:49:54 ok.. well definately i am going to .. try it out .. just getting that + constant folding .. is not a step backwards.. anything else it gets from it.. is a step forward 22:51:08 attila_lendvai: i'll bug you in the up and comming weeks with the code in front of me 22:51:26 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:52:08 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 22:53:04 dmiles_afk: ok. just don't expect an easy ride... 22:53:19 i had combined the source of LarKC and ABCL together for an effecient lisp.. but now i want it even better 22:53:56 -!- rokstar_ is now known as rokstar 22:54:07 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-214-50.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 22:55:32 who coined this for sbcl: "Your Kitten of Death awaits!"? 22:56:34 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@76.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:56:52 revel [~revel@host86-129-86-251.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:22 nyef 22:57:28 The kitten of nyef. 22:57:53 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@wash-static-00-0014.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:58:10 aahh, now it makes sense. I thought it was some mystical code 22:58:33 milkpost [~milkpost@wash-static-00-0014.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:38 nyef 's not been around lately.. 22:59:05 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:59:13 and minion with him 22:59:40 hmm strange 23:00:07 Does anyone know a good data structure for a polynomial manipulation program 23:00:16 -!- balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:17 -!- cvanduse` [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: later] 23:00:29 (1+x)(y^2 +3) -> answer 23:00:47 i've looked at using (ma 'x) 23:00:54 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:00:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:00:54 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 23:01:00 so that x isn't take as a variable 23:01:04 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 23:01:29 revel: a hash table. 23:01:54 I was wondering about something like that 23:01:56 I have a look 23:01:57 thanks 23:03:34 amb007 [~a_bakic@19.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:19 and a fourier transform at some point, depending on the size of the polynomials 23:04:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-118-163.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:06:28 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:24 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.122.167] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:50 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:05 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:18:08 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:18:37 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-214-50.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:19:59 joshe [~joshe@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 23:20:27 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:20:42 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host228-117-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:23:23 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:26:22 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:27:03 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-226-230-252.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:32:04 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 23:32:30 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:36:05 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:36:12 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 23:37:51 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:39:07 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:39:13 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:39:17 Why why i print (2x + 3y) is it displayed as (|2X| + |3Y|) 23:42:03 revel: you're confused. Get a book and read. 23:42:52 is he? 23:43:07 revel: What do you expect it to print? 23:43:11 revel: 2x and 3y are symbols. The print function decides to print them surrounded with vertical bars. 23:44:54 revel: It might help to start by representing your polynomial in a lispier style, and work on solving that, _then_ work on converting a more mathy syntax to the lispy syntax. 23:44:57 it has to do with potential numbers 23:45:01 revel: Supposedly because they are what's known as "potential numbers". 23:45:16 revel: EG: (+ (* 2 x) (* 3 y)) 23:46:17 this would supposidly help when it comes to grouping like terms 23:46:24 e.g. 2y + 3y = 5y 23:46:51 revel: Yes, and your method of having two symbols, 2y and 3y certainly won't help at all. 23:48:20 revel: Do you know any other programming languages? And do you know anything about data structures? 23:48:20 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 23:50:41 java, python, bit of C 23:50:54 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:18 hash tables would be good 23:51:30 don't know how to implement in lisp 23:51:34 revel: If your polynomials are dense, a list might be better. 23:51:41 revel: Lisp already has hash tables. 23:52:09 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-214-50.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 23:58:12 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@wash-static-00-0014.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:59:09 bitflip [~user@ip98-184-186-177.tu.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp