00:02:11 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:03:45 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.242.79.110] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:13 didi [~user@scorpion.tdkom.psi.br] has joined #lisp 00:06:38 -!- didi [~user@scorpion.tdkom.psi.br] has quit [Changing host] 00:06:38 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 00:08:24 -!- dthomp [~dthomp@adsl-76-231-56-68.dsl.frs2ca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:13:55 -!- vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:17:05 valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.235.162] has joined #lisp 00:24:23 Korting [~Konijn@d54C6131A.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 00:24:45 Hi people 00:25:44 -!- Korting [~Konijn@d54C6131A.access.telenet.be] has quit [Client Quit] 00:28:51 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:29:37 -!- bigjust is now known as bigjust_ 00:33:20 -!- devogon [~user@a83-163-241-74.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:38:27 -!- Guest74781 [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-72-147.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:38:54 sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has joined #lisp 00:39:24 gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:22 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:45:35 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:48:10 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:49:03 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@246-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:49:50 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 00:52:59 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.35.235.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:54:44 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-201-127.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:55:14 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 01:00:49 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-93.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:03:32 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:07:26 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 01:11:25 -!- amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:16:34 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-93.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:16:37 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:16:56 beach [~user@116.118.3.210] has joined #lisp 01:17:28 Good morning everyone! 01:17:50 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-191-132.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:18:11 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:19:03 -!- binod [~binod@88-134-63-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:23:47 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:24:22 hi beach :) 01:25:35 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-93.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:27:14 peth_ [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has joined #lisp 01:27:18 -!- peth_ [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has quit [Client Quit] 01:32:35 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:34:54 -!- balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:35:23 -!- gko [~gko@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 01:37:49 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 01:40:34 fe[nl]ix: I finally updated my code to work with more recent iolib (756e94e1a5c307eea8ecd81840be39acdf0aa293; the most recent version doesn't compile due to inclusion of lfp.h in C code ; my system is ubuntu 10.10 x86_64). The problem was that 'select' multiplexer backend seemingly stopped working at all (didn't check exactly why). I've switchted to epoll multiplexer and seemingly there's still a performance problem 01:40:34 that was present in select backend before... 01:40:52 namely, epoll-wait is invoked for the same event set repeatedly 01:41:29 (in harvest-events method) 01:41:34 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.168.119] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:42:16 ivan4th: you should update both iolib and the C library 01:43:27 ok, will try it. Concerning the performance problem: I've found the similar problem in select backend earlier today (in iolib version from quicklisp where select worked), it calls select with same fd sets over and over again causing unneeded CPU load while waiting for timeout to expire 01:43:54 do you have a short test case ? 01:44:35 well, not yet :( 01:46:29 I'm not quite sure about epoll because I haven't used it from C before, but in case of select() only fds that have some activity on them remain selected in fd sets, and calling select() again on them causes it to return immediately 01:47:12 thus we get tight busy loop in harvest-events until the specified timeout expires 01:50:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 01:52:57 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:54:34 vlion [~user@CPE-76-178-165-160.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:54:59 What should I use to request webpages? 01:55:16 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:56:01 jsoft: drakma is used a lot. 01:56:23 peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has joined #lisp 01:56:41 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:05 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@99-14-26-190.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:59:08 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:47 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 02:02:44 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:06:30 spacemanaki [~spacemana@cpe-68-175-63-237.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:09 -!- Soulman [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 02:08:58 slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 02:10:23 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-93.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:14:07 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:25:50 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:29:49 -!- vlion [~user@CPE-76-178-165-160.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:33:01 dthomp [~dthomp@adsl-76-231-56-68.dsl.frs2ca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:20 vlion [~user@64.126.142.148] has joined #lisp 02:41:28 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:44:22 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 02:44:36 Anyone knows how to add a two column value in a 'gtk:array-list-store' from cl-gtk2? 02:44:51 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:51:29 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:53:29 -!- sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:53:35 sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has joined #lisp 02:58:12 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@pool-96-241-63-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:58:41 peth_ [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has joined #lisp 03:00:27 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-79-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:01:23 -!- peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:01:23 -!- peth_ is now known as peth 03:02:04 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 03:07:15 -!- dthomp [~dthomp@adsl-76-231-56-68.dsl.frs2ca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:11:49 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:12:37 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-93.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:13:06 krzysz00 [~user@pool-71-252-233-89.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:30 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-79-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:34 I tried to understand the Y combinator, and all I got for my trouble is a freaking headache and a great appreciation of the man who came up with it. 03:17:21 It took me some time to be able to confidently say I can reproduce it and explain it. There are some pretty good walk-throughs of derivations if you want more though: one of the SICP video lectures, Richard Gabriel's Why of Y, and the Little Schemer 03:17:26 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-33-167-227.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 03:18:59 krzysz00: try to reduce it on paper. Otherwise, I believe #haskell and #scheme have better experience in explaining the Y combinator (call by name and call by value, respectively) 03:21:45 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.215.76] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 03:23:02 Figures. I just had no idea you could actually *do* that kkind of thing. 03:24:27 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-167-227.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:36 -!- krzysz00 [~user@pool-71-252-233-89.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33:37 fe[nl]ix: while trying to distill the problem with harvest-events I've discovered that I was wrong about busy loop (repeated calls happen only upon sys:eintr conditions), sorry. Perhaps my problem is very app-specific and has to do with lots of interrupted select() calls under ccl (don't know why yet) 03:33:47 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:34:14 select backend works fine in the simple test case, too... 03:36:20 -!- pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:40:23 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-50-156.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:42:48 -!- spacemanaki [~spacemana@cpe-68-175-63-237.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: spacemanaki] 03:50:46 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 03:55:12 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-50-156.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57:19 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57:41 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:58:14 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:00:26 csmax_ [~max@p5DE8C4F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:46 -!- csmax [~max@p5DE8D5BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:01:53 _danb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:09:54 I have a function that have lots of key parameters, so much that can't be shown in one line by slime in the echo are. Is it possible to make slime scroll the keys so I can see the others? 04:11:07 didi: you can type a colon and ask for a completion. 04:11:27 pkhuong: That's a good idea. 04:11:29 Thank you. 04:12:04 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:19:23 <_3b> you can also try setting slime-autodoc-use-multiline-p in emacs and see if that annoys you or not 04:19:56 *_3b* thinks there is also a key to show the whole list, but doesn't know what it is 04:20:32 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:21:19 _3b: Hum, it seems that it will. 04:24:25 jsoft [~jsoft@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 04:24:26 <_3b> might be C-c C-d A to expand it manually 04:24:59 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:25:38 _3b: Nice. Thank you. 04:25:46 Wow, there's actually a lot of keys in this thing... 04:27:09 What, emacs? 04:27:30 vlion: gtk:gtk-window 04:27:59 Ooh. Havn't mucked with that (yet?). 04:28:31 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:03 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F5A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:35:54 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:38:00 _3b: Well, this is annoying. How do I turn it off? 04:38:44 -!- bakkdoor is now known as bakkdoor|afk 04:41:08 jfm3 [~user@c-98-221-112-35.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:52 <_3b> didi: should be able to just set that var back to nil 04:42:42 _3b: Interestingly, 'slime-autodoc-use-multipline-p' is off... 04:43:01 az [~az@p5796C6BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:03 is there a bot here that has seen xan_ ? 04:45:42 <_3b> didi: hmm, strange... does that for me now too 04:46:55 <_3b> didi: maybe try switching to another lisp buffer and back? 04:48:18 _3b: It worked, but not at first. I had to switch a couple of times and walk around a little. 04:48:27 <_3b> jfm3: no bot, but my scrollback says last connected a few hours ago, but not said anything in at least a day or so 04:48:35 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:48:38 _3b: Anyway, thank you. 04:48:42 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6087.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:48:56 DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:48:56 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 04:48:56 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 04:49:03 MonsterMob [~s@77.28.116.15] has joined #lisp 04:49:53 _3b: thanks! 04:50:12 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:59 Ryan__ [~Ryan@0007e94dd268.click-network.com] has joined #lisp 04:58:48 -!- Ryan__ [~Ryan@0007e94dd268.click-network.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:59:04 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.233.5.145] has joined #lisp 05:04:09 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:08:32 incandenza_ [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:19 -!- jomat [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:20:19 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:20:59 daniel__ [~daniel@p50829A3C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:40 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5082AD9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:26:35 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:32:42 morning 05:33:49 Hello schmrkc 05:36:30 hamsterspider [~chatzilla@pool-71-189-131-225.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:12 -!- Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:42:36 *schmrkc* waves at beach 05:44:45 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 05:48:29 -!- vlion [~user@64.126.142.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:49:24 How do I deal with multiple return values like with what clppre returns on scan 05:49:46 <_3b> multiple-value-bind, multiple-value-list, multiple-value-call, nth-value, etc 05:50:03 hmm ok 05:51:16 <_3b> cl-ppcre:register-groups-bind might also be helpful depending on what you are doing 05:52:09 <_3b> (or the various cl-ppcre:do-* macros) 05:52:57 vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 05:53:09 -!- MonsterMob [~s@77.28.116.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:53:20 thanks 05:58:55 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 06:04:30 What kind of thing is #("blah" "bleh") ? 06:04:32 ie, whats the # 06:04:54 <_3b> #() is a vector 06:05:01 Hmm 06:05:11 <_3b> # is a dispatching macro character, specific behavior depends on the next character 06:05:30 <_3b> for example #' for FUNCTION, #\ reads characters, etc 06:05:53 You can think of it as "sort of" a type specifier. 06:08:06 <_3b> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm for more details 06:08:39 vlion: You can? 06:09:16 Well, I can. 06:09:29 vlion: Good for you! 06:09:45 It's only an approximation of the truth, but it serves me well, within epsilon 06:11:46 vlion: I assume you know the CLHS definition of "type specifier", right? 06:12:45 Hmm, cheers 06:13:17 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:13:27 Not precisely. 06:15:12 I like to overgeneralize and think of # ("sharp") as telling the reader to do some weird syntax. 06:15:26 Less related to types. 06:16:14 colin_ [~colin@p57BA7024.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:12 It definitely has nothing to do with types. 06:17:52 if #() denotes a vector - then it does have something to do with types, ne? 06:18:59 No. As _3b said, it's a dispatching macro character, that in the case of #( happens to be defined to create a vector. 06:19:25 Hi, I'm a Lisp-beginner (as will become obvious from the Q) :-) 06:19:32 What other standard uses of # are there besides #' and #( ? 06:19:44 #+ 06:19:54 vlion: There is a complete list in the syntax chapter. 06:20:18 vlion: There's a whole list in the hyperspec. I'll find it for ya. (: 06:20:30 colin_: Welcome to Lisp and #lisp. 06:20:36 me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-250-79.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:37 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Mast_9.htm 06:21:22 -!- incandenza_ [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 06:21:35 Interesting 06:22:04 I've not seen a lot of those in the lisp I've read (not a lot, but some). 06:23:02 vlion: #\ #+ #( are kinda common I guess. :) 06:23:36 yeah. But #. and #: are new 06:23:38 (to me!) 06:23:43 I've written a wee function that joins the elements (converted to strings) of THE list passed to it with "-". So (join '(one two three)) --> "one-two-three" and (join '(one) --> "one". This works fine. 06:24:05 sweet 06:25:00 but how do I write it so that it can accept a variable number of arguments (not a list)? 06:25:10 Use &rest 06:25:25 It blobs up the rest of the args into a list 06:25:39 The problem with &rest is that it turns all the rest into a single LIST... 06:25:40 colin_: You mean like (join one two three) ? 06:26:02 @schmrkc: yes 06:26:03 map on the lsit/ 06:26:13 ? 06:26:21 colin_: You'd need a macro for that, to prevent evaluation of ONE TWO and THREE. 06:26:31 colin_: Why is that a problem? 06:26:32 ... and it's recursive 06:26:38 Ick, why? 06:26:49 hang on everyone. let me explain :-) 06:26:54 DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:26:55 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@58-6-93-222.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Changing host] 06:26:55 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 06:27:13 maybe: (defun join (&rest args) (reduce (lambda (x y) (concatenate 'string x "-" y)))) 06:27:15 haven't tried it 06:27:18 I'm trying to get commonqt going on mac. It builds fine but running the tutorial errors with: class not found: QCoreApplication . I am using Qt 4.7. Anyone know if there is some magic to initialize smoke? The process monitor shows all the Qt/Smoke libraries have loaded fine 06:27:20 (defun join (args) 06:27:20 (if (cdr args) 06:27:20 (concatenate 'string (string (car args)) "-" (join (cdr args))) 06:27:21 (string (car args))))) 06:27:32 jfm3: Nope. 06:27:39 BillR [43a45d64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.164.93.100] has joined #lisp 06:28:04 colin_: Create a local function using labels that is essentially your existing one, and call it with the rest parameter. 06:28:57 if I use &args then when it calls itself with (join (cdr args) I get (as input) a LIST containing ONE item, namely, the list of cdr. 06:29:31 colin_: Create a local function using labels that is essentially your existing one, and call it with the rest parameter. 06:29:33 colin_: Create a local function using labels that is essentially your existing one, and call it with the rest parameter. 06:29:41 heh! 06:29:50 or apply? 06:29:54 Jabberwockey [~quassel@83.151.30.10] has joined #lisp 06:30:04 still it won't work with (join one two three) . just sayin'. 06:30:10 (defun join (&rest args) (reduce (lambda (x y) (concatenate 'string x "-" y)) args)) ; does not work for (JOIN) 06:30:48 my JOIN works on strings, not symbols, but that's easily remedied 06:31:08 mine works on strings and symbols :-) 06:31:13 nice! 06:31:28 Why don't you just write some stuff up in FORMAT ? 06:31:48 *vlion* rummages around... he has a join somewhere 06:32:05 Yeah, I think FORMAT is more idiomatic CL than our JOIN hacks. 06:32:06 anyway, is there a way to undo a list? like (undo list) --> element* 06:32:30 colin_: What does that even mean to undo a list? 06:32:46 `,@ is kind of like that 06:33:15 colin_: do you mean VALUES-LIST ? 06:33:16 cl-ppcre:scan returns 4 values, how do i capture multiple return values? thx!n 06:33:16 colin_: You have gotten several workable suggestions. How come you are not reading them? 06:33:17 ah well, I don't _really_ want a string anyway, a new symbol (join 'sym1 'sym2) --> sym1-sym2 would be nice :-) 06:33:19 (defvar l '(1 2 3)) (defvar m `(0 ,@l 4)) 06:33:34 BillR: use multiple-value-bind 06:33:35 @beach: I will! 06:33:39 (values-list (list 1 2 3 4)) for example 06:33:49 beach:thank you! 06:34:13 Wurgh. my join is at work 06:34:23 or do you want to produce a list of the elements from the list? ;) 06:35:20 colin_: Whatcho probably want is (join 'sym1 'sym2) => SYM1-SYM2 (: 06:35:43 @schmrkc: no, I might want to pass them to a function which is expecting multiple args, instead of a single list of args. 06:36:05 -!- pnq [~nick@172.162.3.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:36:09 colin_: Well then you want VALUES-LIST. (values-list (list 1 2 3 4)) => 1 2 3 4 06:36:23 thanks, but now I hva 06:36:25 colin_: But I really don't think this is what you want. 06:36:33 have to read all the alternatives 06:36:45 colin_: Perhaps you're really wanting (apply #'your-func that-list) 06:37:09 that's the fun of learning lisp: learning what you want to learn... 06:37:25 (: 06:38:18 colin_: I am thinking you're asking something like.... "I have the function +, and the list (1 2 3 4). Now I want to call + with that list" 06:38:36 -!- BillR [43a45d64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.164.93.100] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:38:47 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:39:04 that would be it, I suppose. 06:39:49 (apply #'+ (list 1 2 3 4)) 06:40:50 colin 06:41:01 what I did when I wrote join is I took it in a multistage process 06:41:10 Stage 1 is to solve the intersperse problem 06:41:15 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 06:41:25 @schrkc: yeah, apply was mentioned earlier 06:41:34 (join x 1 2 3 4) => (1 x 2 x 3 x 4) 06:41:42 Then, convert to the desired representation 06:41:54 ok 06:42:10 What is it that you are trying to do colin_ ? 06:42:48 jomat [~jomat@2001:470:9935::badc:ab1e] has joined #lisp 06:43:24 @drdo: in real life? OK, I'm modifying the Adventure like game (Wizard's Apprentice) from, ummm, that book... 06:43:37 colin_: No, on this particular join thing 06:44:09 (Barski - Land of Lisp) 06:44:55 well, I have (defn walk direction) 06:46:00 and I'd like to be able to do (walk up), (walk stairs) or (walk upstairs) or (walk up-stairs) 06:46:44 What's not working for ya. 06:46:53 so I have a dictionary (ummm, a list of (canonical-word) (defs*)) 06:47:21 I guess it'd help if I had read that book (: 06:47:42 No, this is different from what's in the book :) 06:47:49 but it's a nice book. 06:48:04 oh ok. 06:48:15 anyway, as it stands I need to pass a single argument. 06:48:47 but what I'm parsing could be several words, which should all get sent to the function. 06:49:00 Or you could just have walk support a variable number of arguments? 06:49:40 yeeees, but I still want a single symbol to look up in the dictionary 06:50:09 what symbol? 06:50:16 I don't understand the problem then 06:50:32 Can you post your code? 06:50:33 colin_: say you do (foo green balls) what do you want to happen ? 06:50:58 too many helpful people here at once... 06:51:03 ya 06:51:11 I'll go hit the gym instead. good luck, colin_ ! 06:51:17 :_ 06:51:19 :) 06:51:31 *Phoodus* takes schmrkc's place ;) 06:51:38 :( argh! 06:51:40 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:52:38 as beach mentioned: there are plenty of hints/answers for me to work through... 06:53:06 I think you are trying to solve the wrong problem 06:53:11 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:53:17 That's why i wanted to see your code 06:53:48 -!- kanru1 [~kanru@61-228-157-40.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:54:03 @drdo: that's usually the problem :) I posted the function earlier, but here it is again: 06:54:28 hang on, you'd need the whole program... 06:54:37 No, my point is, you probably don't want to do that join thing 06:54:47 http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 06:55:01 use that to deposit your code for viewing 06:55:45 @drdo: I know... 06:56:07 @phoodus: but my code is embarasing :( 06:56:13 heh 06:56:36 (defparameter *thesaurus* '( 06:56:36 (walk go climb) 06:56:37 (up upstairs up-stairs up-ladder up-rope) 06:56:37 )) 06:56:42 colin_: Past a certain size, everyone thinks their code is disgusting 06:56:42 however, I don't see how your dash concatenation thing applies to the upstairs sample 06:58:03 The canonical command would be "walk up" but the player might type "climb up the stairs" 06:58:16 "the" gets deleted 06:58:39 then "up" and "stairs" -> "up-stairs" 06:58:47 is the action always 1 word? 06:58:59 and climb -> walk and up-stairs -> up. 06:59:09 That's what i don't understand 06:59:11 no, you have (up), (stairs), and (up stars) 06:59:16 stairs 06:59:17 Is up-stairs a different action from up? 06:59:22 ( . ) 06:59:46 @drdo: no, it's an alternative/alias 07:00:01 you know about car/cdr? 07:00:08 yes :) 07:00:17 so your action is the car, the list of parameters is the cdr 07:00:22 from (walk up stairs) 07:00:32 ok 07:00:44 so compare the whole list instead of trying to merge things into symbols 07:00:50 (the whole list of parameters, that is) 07:01:01 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-79-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:01:35 mmmm, ok - have to think about everything now... 07:01:42 I'm confused 07:01:48 there are obviously lots of ways to do it 07:01:59 @drdo: which bit? 07:02:25 I don't understand what you are trying to do 07:02:31 lists are the easiest composite to work with in lisp, so when you've got bunches of data to work with, just keep them as lists instead of stringifying or whatever 07:02:54 But yes, from what i think you want to do 07:03:06 a list of symbols is probably what you want 07:03:18 @drdo: I'm writing my first amateur natural language parser... 07:03:35 no, you're writing a text adventure parser ;) 07:03:46 this land of lisp seems to be pretty cool then! 07:04:00 a bit behind the times, aren't I? 07:04:12 colin_: http://pastie.org/1422809 07:04:23 colin_: drdo is right though; why not just use a list of symbols rather than converting it to a string? 07:04:25 well, the adventure gamde developed in LoL is "limited" :) 07:04:26 it's HIDEOUSLY inefficient 07:05:09 I am not sure how to trim the last element in a list without that nasty reverse/cdr/reverse construction 07:05:14 @beach, yeah - it being Lisp, that's almost certainly the way to do it... 07:05:38 colin_: It's not about it being lisp 07:05:55 (also if anyone wants to throw rocks at my implementation of join, love to catch them) 07:05:59 :) 07:06:03 What's the point of constructing your string only to destruct it right after? 07:06:59 well, I wouldn't destruct it - It would be used to find the canonical direction as a sort of lookup key 07:07:01 vlion: Why do you post inefficient code? 07:07:28 It can get the job done. 07:08:08 the problem with the game-read function I have at present (from the book :) ) is that it crashes if you type the wrong number of words 07:08:17 it's a bit fragile... 07:08:17 vlion: But yours is longer than a more efficient one, and yours is not idiomatic. 07:08:28 Wow that code is special type of bad 07:08:42 what was wrong with reduce? 07:09:08 beach: excuse /me/ for not being idiomatic: I wanted working before pretty. 07:09:31 join EXPR,LIST 07:09:31 Joins the separate strings of LIST into a single string with fields separated by the value 07:09:32 of EXPR, and returns that new string. Example: 07:09:32 $rec = join(':', $login,$passwd,$uid,$gid,$gcos,$home,$shell); 07:09:32 Beware that unlike "split", "join" doesn't take a pattern as its first argument. Compare 07:09:33 "split". 07:09:34 Phoodus: couldn't diddle it to work without some logic to handle the inital case 07:09:37 vlion: That's up to you, but please don't recommend it to newcomers. 07:09:52 ;) 07:10:36 beach: I didn't see your code. Sorry. 07:11:30 Hm, still don't see you posting code, so, my tears are limited. 07:12:46 vlion: As Phoodus says, what was wrong with using reduce? 07:12:53 Phoodus: couldn't diddle it to work without some logic to handle the inital case 07:13:31 the stringification, in particular 07:13:50 Oh, the stringification is easy if you can generate the interspersed list. 07:13:53 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-79-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:14 then reduce without concatenate 'string inside would suffice 07:14:29 (format nil "~{~a~^-~}" things) 07:14:38 ok, I have to read up reduce and apply. I'm a _very_ beginner, remember... 07:15:18 colin_: You do, yes. And then you should decide not to use them, because you don't need to convert lists of symbols to strings in the first place. 07:15:21 drdo: was waiting for that. Didn't feel like pulling up the format reference myself, as I rarely use its higher-level features 07:15:42 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.19.196] has joined #lisp 07:15:45 Phoodus: I didn't want to say it because i don't think colin_ really wants this 07:15:59 (apply #'fun '(1 2 3)) -> (fun 1 2 3) 07:17:03 colin_: I believe what you want is to take a list of parameters, and canonicalize them into a single symbol 07:17:05 :) enough! I have to study all your words of wisdom, to see what I really want, and then how to do it. I'm sure it's all there... :) 07:17:23 so you map (up) -> upstairs, (up stairs) -> upstairs, etc 07:17:30 @Phoodus: yes, I think that's what I want 07:17:41 Phoodus: That's what he wants, but probably not what he needs. 07:17:53 it's a sensible input transform 07:18:34 Need? It's just for fun, learning Lisp. 07:18:54 colin_: do you know the difference between eq/eql/equal/equalp? 07:19:14 yes, pretty much, more or less 07:19:19 -!- jfm3 [~user@c-98-221-112-35.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:19:20 colin_: What we are trying to say is that for this particular problem you are solving, this is probably not what you want 07:19:25 jfm3 [~user@c-98-221-112-35.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:44 Meaning, there is probably a clearer, easier, more efficient way to solve your problem 07:19:44 drdo/beach: you don't want him to canonicalize input expressions of various aliases to a single symbol? 07:20:05 @drdo: I know, but you don't want to rewrite the whole program... 07:20:40 Phoodus: Actually, at this point, I don't care that much. /me is getting bored with this particular problem. 07:20:42 Phoodus: I've asked him to post the code so i can understand the problem at large 07:21:03 well, he explained the problem well enough 07:21:29 Not really no 07:21:50 it's ok Phoodus :-) I'll manage from here... 07:21:53 text adventure parser with ( . ), 'the removal, and aliased params is not well enough explained? 07:21:54 Or rather, i believe this problem is only a problem because of previous choices in the whole program 07:22:39 @drdo: surely, but I'm doing iterative development here :) 07:23:06 vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-172-95.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:23:49 Anyway, thanks for all the ideas - I'll be looking through all of them now - even if I didn't comment at the time, ok? 07:23:54 colin_: in order to easily do any sort of mapping, you should use a-lists or hash-tables 07:24:02 colin_: well, if you don't care, you can just use that format one liner and move on 07:24:28 and will have to use an #'equal test 07:24:41 colin_: are you adapting the text adventure from LOL here? http://www.lisperati.com/code.html 07:25:14 I@pinkwerks: yes. there's alot of adapting to do :) 07:27:14 -!- vmmenon [~vmmenon@c-67-183-172-95.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:27:17 @Phoodus: the dictionary is a sort of a-list, but I'm doing a reverse lookup... Anyway, that's not the problem. Getting a single key symbol is. 07:27:38 right, the reverse lookup is kind of the problem 07:27:54 you're saying "upstairs can be up, up stairs, up-stairs, stairs" 07:28:06 which means given (up stairs), you don't know where to search 07:28:16 you need to map (up) -> upstairs, (up stairs) -> upstairs, etc 07:28:33 so given the human-specified alias, you can directly look up its internal canonical form 07:28:35 I suppose so... 07:29:17 of course, you can specify this by making an initializing utiility function which takes an easy-to-edit condensed form like '(upstairs up (up stairs) up-stairs stairs) 07:29:34 my thoughts just a minute ago :) 07:29:45 I do that a lot, it's very handy 07:30:19 make the specifications easy to edit, make the storage structure easy to work with, write a small converter from the former to the latter 07:30:38 ... and one could play with the #'equal test to make it a bit fuzzy? 07:30:40 Yuuhi` [~user@p5483AADB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:01 the main point of using #'equal here is that it deeply compares elements inside lists 07:31:27 whereas eq/eql could look at 2 different lists (1 2) and (1 2) and compare false 07:31:36 because they're not the _same_ list object 07:31:47 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A1D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:32:00 I knew that. :) 07:32:08 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:32:19 never hurts to overexplain while learning ;) 07:32:49 it doesn't make it any more "fuzzy", by whatever definition you might be using 07:33:23 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:33:32 I was thinking of assoc &key test 07:33:48 right, what would be fuzzy about that? 07:33:58 or you mean inserting your own test function? 07:34:08 yes 07:34:27 yeah, you could do "smarter" or "fuzzier" comparisons then 07:34:28 slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 07:34:33 one that thinks (go up stairs) == (go up the stairs) 07:34:35 but get it working with the simple case first 07:34:46 I'd rather do 'the elimination up front 07:35:01 well I do at the moment 07:35:14 as opposed to every single comparison having to re-ignore 'the every time 07:36:26 but the whole thing gets complicated when you have (feed fish cat) and someone types "feed the cat the fish" or "feed the fish to the cat" :-) 07:36:39 vlion` [~user@CPE-76-178-165-160.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:53 how so? 07:37:10 the fish doesn't want to eat the cat. 07:37:28 :o 07:37:32 the "to" distinguishes it 07:37:44 basically, you have templates to match 07:37:52 not if it's been deleted... :P 07:37:57 feed to , feet 07:37:58 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 07:38:01 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 07:38:04 you're only deleting 'the, not 'to, right? 07:38:23 oh I'm deleting loads of things :) 07:38:47 ah, then you have to rethink those, and if different usages do mess with your parsing, like the feeding case 07:38:51 the parser I started with wanted (feed 'fish 'cat) 07:39:31 yeah, but don't give away how to write an Adventure parser - that's part of the fun... 07:39:51 you need to first come up with your acceptable vocabulary input 07:39:54 -!- vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:40:09 if you change what the input can take, you can potentially cause huge changes in your parser & data 07:40:48 there's no way to be forward-compatible to every level of "smart input" you might want it to have just from 1 type of parsing 07:40:55 colin_:you're talking about diagraming a sentance and it's not very trivial, i would start with only dealing with dead simple syntax. besides most people won't type a whole sentance when they can use shortcuts. 07:41:44 and do your best always to have a running version 07:41:56 instead of always delaying finishing it because of new features 07:42:27 @pinkwerks - I know (not trivial). At the moment I'm trying to make the parser more robust... ie. it even still crashes if you just press return! :) 07:42:59 how unlispy :) 07:43:56 well, if you look at the LoL code, converting the user input into a command to be eval'd is a bit, ummm.... that's not normal is it? 07:44:18 no, eval is used pretty rarely 07:44:45 however, mapping a symbol to a lambda, and calling that is common 07:45:46 say, off topic, will I start thinking in a lispy way if I keep at it long enough? I'm a C/Perl guy at the moment... 07:46:48 Probably. I've noticed my thinking bending as I go along. Although I guess not enough from some comments. :/ 07:47:15 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.71.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:48:27 you just have to get more familiar with the tools lisp offers 07:48:35 I must admit, I find (defun do-it () (read-it) (print-it) (do-it) ) weird 07:48:38 and have those spawn your solution's attack vector 07:48:51 yup. 07:49:03 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.54.211] has joined #lisp 07:49:47 Although I started reading Mark-Jason Dominus' book Higher Order Perl, which is sort of Perl for Lisp-thinkers. Or something like that. 07:50:47 There's this common misconception that lisp is all about functional programming, which is not true at all 07:50:52 I am in my own package on the repl, and trying to use (list) and such, and it comes up as undefined. 07:50:58 iamfluff [~cmsimon@c-67-171-163-253.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:59 What do I need to import? Isnt it just :cl ? 07:51:34 jsoft: Can you show your package definition? 07:51:40 I am using (defpackage :blah (:use :cl :drakma)) 07:52:09 @drdo: I've read loads of stuff in the past week _about_ Lisp. So I don't have any of the negative misconceptions... 07:52:15 Well, list would be there then 07:53:08 -!- colin_ [~colin@p57BA7024.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: colin_] 07:53:33 *Phoodus* uses tons of functional style when doing lisp coding 07:54:03 Phoodus: Sure, but that doesn't mean you are forced to or what to do that everywhere 07:54:07 *want 07:54:24 right 07:54:34 I write CL like C 07:54:43 My bad, it seems when I try to (push ) it says it's undefined 07:58:08 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 07:58:41 compile-time or runtime error? 07:58:54 I'm thinking you should try to print (symbol-package 'push) 08:04:47 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.19.196] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:05:30 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:30 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:06:42 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:10:25 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:12:45 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 08:12:54 jsoft: it says *what* is undefined, specifically? 08:13:56 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:15:28 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:17:01 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 08:18:36 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:21:11 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:09 Ralith: I think I was using it wrong; (push 'a (list 'b 'c)) 08:22:51 the error message should be completely different for that, rather than for push not being found 08:23:37 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:23:59 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 08:27:09 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118203 08:27:24 Why is that ? :/ 08:29:00 <_3b> extra parens around (IF. ..)? 08:29:13 hmm 08:30:04 That appears to be so, thanks :) 08:30:17 <_3b> also, is QUOTES supposed to be one of the vars bound in that function? 08:32:35 -!- leifw [~user@cpe-74-74-140-33.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:35:47 No, it was supposed to be quote-list :) 08:38:37 Is there something to sync output to the buffer? 08:38:38 In slime? 08:38:53 It only appears to pop up after I C-c C-c lots 08:39:46 *vlion`* holds his tongue and avoid bad puns regarding slime and pinning it down 08:39:56 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.86.74] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:40:25 <_3b> jsoft: maybe call finish-output or force-output once in a while? 08:40:40 are you using a threaded lisp? 08:43:29 Phoodus: I am not sure.. sbcl from mac ports 08:43:41 _3b: will try that... 08:44:29 Hmm that works 08:47:17 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:51:19 leifw [~user@cpe-74-74-140-33.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:57:19 jsoft: yes, you were using it wrong, and yes, you should have noticed that from the exact error message :P 08:58:02 :) 08:58:21 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.233.5.145] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:58:51 -!- vlion` [~user@CPE-76-178-165-160.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:00:24 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-79-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:02:04 -!- hamsterspider [~chatzilla@pool-71-189-131-225.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 09:03:27 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 09:07:32 mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 09:07:37 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:07:45 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:12:15 -!- pinkwerks [~pinkwerks@cpe-74-68-129-122.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:14:39 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-79-106.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:25 -!- iamfluff [~cmsimon@c-67-171-163-253.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:20:23 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has joined #lisp 09:26:15 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:18 -!- psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has left #lisp 09:29:53 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:33:15 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:34:42 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.194] has joined #lisp 09:40:34 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 09:50:03 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.20] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:55:38 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.86.74] has joined #lisp 09:58:48 hi ppl 09:59:04 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-191-132.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:59:57 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A888.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:25 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 10:10:58 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:14:14 hi Posterdati 10:14:29 This land of lisp seems to be bringing in lotsa people. I should get this book. 10:15:06 <_danb_> I don't know if it's something that experienced lispers would want -- being a learner myself 10:16:56 schmrkc: I bought it new for 27 from amazon! 10:17:30 Damn its nice looking at lisp code after a while. 10:17:57 <_danb_> he does seem to be emphasising graphs which is pretty cool (but I'm only up to ch7) 10:18:01 I always thought it looked hideos, but once you start using it seems to much nicer than most other things 10:20:42 <_danb_> jsoft: I remember that it looked very foreign and sort of intimidating; although it turns out that it is a very consistent and beautiful way to represent stuff. Something like paredit-mode in emacs helps though :) 10:21:45 jsoft: (do 1 2 3) is far less punctuation than do(1,2,3); 10:21:56 Yeah 10:22:16 people are all "OMG too many parens!" but you add up all the (){}[];, from the other languages, and you end up with way more than lisp uses in many cases 10:23:10 btw, question for the SBCL folks: 10:23:29 in the sources, there are ^L page breaks. Are those used in any editor, or are those just in for legacy? 10:25:03 Can be used by emacs 10:25:29 as navigation points? 10:26:18 That too I guess, but also as a page separator where a page ends after the ^L and you can skip to the next page 10:26:39 <_danb_> I think info uses too 10:26:44 It's used to separate related souce code chunks inside a source file 10:26:48 <_danb_> *it 10:28:02 bsod1 [~osa1@88.243.105.177] has joined #lisp 10:28:35 *tcr1* realizes _danb_ is not that danb 10:28:52 <_danb_> oh yeh, not that again 10:29:05 -!- _danb_ is now known as _danb_is_not_dan 10:29:24 -!- _danb_is_not_dan is now known as _danb_isnot_danb 10:29:43 maybe you should abbreviate your name slightly else :-) 10:29:56 how about _the_other_danb_? :) 10:30:20 <_danb_isnot_danb> hm, that's slightly better 10:30:48 Should abbreviate to disd 10:30:51 :P 10:32:05 DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:32:05 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 10:32:05 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 10:33:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-201-127.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:34:59 HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:36:33 -!- _danb_isnot_danb is now known as _dnb_ 10:40:14 blowers [~ian@84.93.146.255] has joined #lisp 10:44:31 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 10:47:18 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:47:25 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:51:57 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A888.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:52:39 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-238-209.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 10:54:41 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:56:16 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 10:57:38 xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has joined #lisp 11:00:21 phao [~phao@189.107.152.9] has joined #lisp 11:00:53 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.152.9] has left #lisp 11:10:18 gtklocker [~gtklocker@adsl-150.79.107.89.tellas.gr] has joined #lisp 11:17:20 Hi 11:18:06 Is there any easy and enjoyable way to learn CLisp? I'm told that it can learn one many fundumentals of programming. 11:18:56 gtklocker: the best and only way to learn clisp is to read its implementation notes at http://l1sp.org/clisp 11:19:34 gtklocker: if you meant "common lisp", you should write "common lisp" or "cl". http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ is a nice way to learn CL. paradigms of ai programming too. 11:20:28 Yes, common lisp is what I meant.\ 11:21:56 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:23:13 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 11:24:07 btw, to all "Lisp OS" afficionados - I think ther could be a real use for such a thing if designed similar to Inferno Operating System (which was geared mainly towards embedded space) 11:24:11 brbr, breakfast 11:31:34 gtklocker: Do you already know any other programming languages? 11:34:38 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 11:36:30 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:05 p_l|backup: I've certainly thought about such thing from time to time 11:41:53 I think the practical way to do such thing would be something similar to emacs 11:42:08 Doing it on the bare metal would just be too much work for anyone to bother 11:42:35 -!- gtklocker [~gtklocker@adsl-150.79.107.89.tellas.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:45:14 gtklocker [~gtklocker@adsl-16.109.242.171.tellas.gr] has joined #lisp 11:46:20  11:46:38 hello gtklocker 11:46:47 xristos: ping 11:46:50 gtklocker: Do you already know any other programming languages? 11:46:57 beach: no 11:47:03 That's the case. 11:47:07 :( 11:47:55 So, is Common Lisp good enough to start with? 11:47:59 gtklocker: Then you should probably start with this one: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 11:48:10 gtklocker: SICP is a good book and has video lectures available 11:48:37 gtklocker: Sure, CL is fine. But "Practical Common Lisp" probably requires prior knowledge about programming. 11:49:39 I would recommend SICP to anyone getting started with programming, it's great 11:50:43 Well, except if the person in question is really young 11:51:25 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@212-183-35-140.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:51:38 gtklocker: I am not sure I agree with the advice of drdo. I found it great, but that was because I had 10 years experience with programming at that point. 11:52:09 drdo: Did you do SICP without any prior experience with programming? 11:52:20 drdo: I *am* relatively young, I am 15 years old. 11:52:30 beach: Nah, mostly the same as you 11:52:47 gtklocker: Then i don't think it's a good one 11:53:03 which one could help? 11:53:32 gtklocker: The one I showed you. 11:53:35 beach: At my univ the introductory course is pretty much SICP without the compilation part though 11:54:20 drdo: I think that is a mistake for pretty much every university except the ones with highly motivated and excellent students. 11:54:45 beach: Why is that? 11:55:07 SICP starts from the very beginning and explains things gradually and very well 11:56:22 drdo: Because it requires a capacity for, and an interest in abstraction that most students at that level don't have. Instead that would disgust pretty much every student that had some prior interest in programming, because it would be so foreign to their interest and their aspirations. 11:56:59 I watched the video lectures prior to reading the book 11:57:02 um, so isn't that a good thing for a young, motivated self-learner interested in how to think about programming? 11:57:06 And it had the opposite effect 11:57:26 Phoodus: It is. 11:57:42 I wasn't much older than gtklocker either, was 16 and a half or something 11:57:42 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-191-132.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:57:44 drdo: not everyone is like you 11:57:47 I've only watched the first view videos, and loved them as well 11:58:36 drdo: 0_0 11:58:44 drdo: I have way too many colleagues who extrapolate their own experiences to their students, thinking that every student is a potential teacher/researcher in a top French university. They end up talking to 1% of the students. 11:58:46 and you had programming experience? 11:59:01 They present programming as this magical thing and proceed to do magic on the blackboard, it's very motivating 11:59:03 however, does SICP use an older dialect than common lisp? still good "how to think about programming" material 11:59:19 stassats speaks wisdom 11:59:36 (and beach too, for that matter) 11:59:53 gtklocker: there's also "Land of Lisp" which is getting some good feedback. Haven't read it myself 12:00:09 beach: I know what you mean, but universities should really be like that 12:00:26 That's why you have polytechnic institutes, for people who aren't interested in that way 12:00:35 at least Land of Lisp looks like fun 12:01:22 fun fact: "Polytechnic" doesn't mean the same in the French educational system as it does in the UK one. (Dunno about the Portugese system) 12:01:51 also, that is a fairly surefire way of closing approximately 99% of all Universities 12:01:54 Well, here in portugal, it's sort of like university but directed towards "practical applications" 12:02:08 Whatever that means, but i think you get the picture 12:02:20 so do Engineers go to polytechnic universities? 12:02:21 lawyers? 12:02:26 medical students? 12:02:27 drdo: "trade skills" most likely 12:02:33 Phoodus: Yes, something like that 12:02:39 Krystof: no, no and no 12:02:57 and yet all those crafts are practical applications of knowledge 12:03:01 how odd 12:03:20 That's what the quotes were for 12:03:36 I clearly indicated that i wasn't really being precise 12:03:58 Phoodus put it better 12:04:19 in what sense are engineering, law and medicine not trade skills? 12:04:23 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@212-183-35-140.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has left #lisp 12:04:36 ivan4th: the GC, perhaps ? 12:04:44 because it's a vernacular with non-literal implications :-P 12:04:52 sorry, I'll stop. But what I'm doing is trying to get you to think about it 12:05:13 Krystof: I know how it is, but it's not easy to explain 12:05:16 oh, I know all the stupidities around titles. Even "professor" vs "teacher" is quite funny if you disect it 12:05:22 It might not be the same in your country, i don't know 12:05:43 "sensei" is better 12:05:57 though sensei is very broad 12:06:29 probably best translated as "leader" or "figurehead" than anything else 12:06:55 We could stay here all day arguing about the meaning of natural language words 12:07:03 and the reason I'm trying to get you to think about it is the same reason (to bring this back on topic) that SICP is not the best thing to recommend to every single person 12:07:29 Krystof: I'm not arguing it is 12:08:58 Although the fact that someone found their way here interested in programming is an indicator that it might be appropriate for that person 12:09:09 By the way 12:09:23 may I mention that I know XHTML and CSS? 12:09:38 do you consider those "programming"? 12:09:39 You may, but it's not really relevant 12:09:56 Phoodus: yeah, I don't 12:10:11 that's why I said I don't have any programming experience when I stated 12:10:16 atarted* 12:10:40 have you done javascript? 12:10:57 SICP starts from the very beginning, explaining what computer science and programming is all about and proceeds from there 12:12:02 gtklocker: Common Lisp is a large and complex language, yet it has a very simple foundation. If you decide to go for it, I recommend the "Gentle" book above. It is not fantastic, but then you will get a lot of help with potential problems by coming here or to #lispcafe. 12:12:43 Phoodus: no 12:13:05 gtklocker: Why do you want to learn how to program? 12:13:37 dfox [~dfox@ip-84-42-201-180.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:13:48 gtklocker: read the free materials mentioned, and play around with lisp 12:13:50 -!- kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:14:03 it really, really helps to go through a structured tutorial/learning system 12:14:28 Phoodus: I want to be able to solve problems 12:14:38 kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has joined #lisp 12:14:39 Improve my mental abilities 12:14:44 I'm not sure common lisp is a good language for a complete beginner, it exposes the person to a lot of complexity that isn't relevant for a beginner 12:14:49 get a structre in my mind/life. 12:14:58 And even make a program. 12:15:01 gtklocker: Why not do tai chi instead? 12:15:31 Zhivago: that's a nice point 12:15:34 learning to program will not teach you the most important skill: abstractino 12:15:37 abstraction 12:15:46 abstractino, the new supersymmetric partner of the abstracton 12:15:50 that's something that seems to be fairly innate 12:15:51 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:16:00 yes, also a new sub-atomic particle 12:16:37 Phoodus: How did you draw such conclusion? (that the ability for abstract reasoning is innate) 12:16:49 abstractino can travel through your head without any interaction 12:17:00 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 12:17:23 "seems to be" from my overall sum of anecdotal experience 12:17:31 I heard abstractino sectioned your head into well defined layers 12:17:40 Well, it does seem to kick in for most people by the age of twelve. 12:18:25 I've met very few people who actually can generally abstract, instead of just in very narrow segments 12:18:51 as in, noticing lessons learned in one area apply to completely separate areas, instead of holding internal inconsistencies 12:18:51 for what it's worth, one author with significant influence on my programming pathway was Raymond Smullyan. Particularly "To Mock a Mockingbird", but most of his puzzle books are excellent 12:18:55 Phoodus: what do you mena by saying 'abstract'? 12:19:18 gtklocker: technically, it's noticing patterns 12:19:27 being able to identify and reuse them 12:19:39 gtklocker: generalizing stuff 12:19:53 and drown in them later 12:20:24 -!- benny [~benny@i577A21A4.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:20:45 The removal of accidental features from a model. 12:21:01 gtklocker: for example, noticing that cars, bikes, boats, etc have a particularly important property in common 12:21:07 or the separation of the detail from the overall 12:22:02 drdo: They're all made of stuff. 12:22:25 they need a license to drive 12:22:27 quantum physics: the dreams stuff is made of 12:22:27 Zhivago: Of course, that's what i was going for 12:22:28 drdo: they *transfer* people, don't they? 12:22:52 right 12:22:57 they all involve confusing russian verb forms 12:23:10 now, if you look at some bit of code, some people can't get past the commonality of them 12:23:45 "But a bike only has 2 wheels and is human-powered! It's nothing like a car!" 12:24:02 and refuse to see that there's shared features of both, and specific features to both 12:24:41 the ability to _discover_ and _refine_ those features in a useful, practical way is key 12:25:33 <_dnb_> Phoodus: how does this fit in with oop and class hierarchies; I don't like the latter myself... just wondering 12:25:40 It's key in all walks of life 12:25:47 of course, until you actually do things that require such thinking and design, it's hard to see what the point is 12:26:01 drdo: exactly 12:26:32 This is not specific to programming, you need to abstract Phoodus :D 12:26:49 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A888.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:59 <_dnb_> it's just all this talk of bikes and cars... I'm channelling an oop text book somewhere... 12:27:16 It's a bad idea to do that. You'll start to get confused by wheels and things. 12:27:17 _dnb_: it's taking 2 pieces of code you know you need to write, and knowing how to create common base classes and utility code that makes the 2 implementations easy to do and a pleasure to work with 12:27:28 OOP cures AIDS, cancer and solves world hunger 12:27:40 and more importantly, looking at your whole project that way 12:29:06 <_dnb_> well, I'm a fan of breaking a project down into layers, so to speak 12:29:24 Zhivago: I think the best way to learn is by being given a goal: "We want to build X.", so the tools you'll be using have a point, instead of just talking generally 12:29:32 <_dnb_> such a thing is agnostic to whether you use oop or something more functional 12:29:45 and once you've actually seen them in use, then you can launch from that to learn their full spectrum of applications 12:30:02 I _think_ the "Land of Lisp" book does it that way, by writing games in lisp 12:30:07 but I haven't read it 12:30:51 What is the target audience of Land of Lisp? 12:31:15 valium97582 [~daniel@187.10.40.140] has joined #lisp 12:31:44 <_dnb_> people who want to learn lisp and probably have a little (or a lot of) programming exerience 12:32:14 it apparently introduces programming from scratch 12:32:46 quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:18 http://books.slashdot.org/story/10/11/03/1238213/Land-of-Lisp 12:33:47 "Land of Lisp is an excellent book for someone who wants to learn how to program" etc 12:35:22 <_dnb_> I am reading it; I just don't know how hard it is for someone who has not written a program; it's hard to remember that sort of thing and the experience/knowledge deficits involved 12:43:02 hi 12:43:08 Soulman [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:43:11 Hello 12:43:15 is there anyone using sbcl from a remote slime machine? 12:44:39 Posterdati: why are you asking? 12:45:59 Bronsa [~bronsa@host251-180-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:46:20 drdo: have you seen Inferno? 12:46:47 stassats: to know how to achieve that :) 12:47:49 drdo: it's basically a VM that exports various interfaces from the drivers it has compiled in as filesystem. It can be access to host OS, it can be bare metal stuff, etc. 12:52:13 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:52:55 p_l|backup: Read about it now 12:53:00 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.21] has joined #lisp 12:53:56 Posterdati: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Connecting-to-a-remote-lisp.html 12:54:28 p_l|backup: It looks like there are some nice ideas in there 12:55:00 stassats: thanks 12:55:46 Something of that nature is actually feasible to implement 12:55:59 drdo: I'm also looking into implementing its GC for one of the lisp implementations, with some modifications 12:59:59 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 13:00:43 MonsterMob [~s@77.28.116.58] has joined #lisp 13:01:08 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:03:49 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:04:30 earlgray_ [~EarlGray@79.124.252.138] has joined #lisp 13:05:13 -!- earlgray_ is now known as earlgray_tFileNa 13:05:14 -!- earlgray_tFileNa is now known as EarlGray 13:05:53 gabnet [~gabnet@173.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:04 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@173.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:07:02 I think 13:07:12 I think I'll buy the Land Of Lisp 13:07:28 (summed up as LOL) 13:07:32 gabnet [~gabnet@173.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:13 Admit it, it was the video clip 13:08:18 :) 13:10:30 drdo: yes it was for me :) 13:10:33 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 13:11:06 drdo: cannot stop to see it :) it's addictive a sorta subliminal message in it :) 13:12:29 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:42 How do I change what the REPL considers the "current directory"? 13:14:54 slash_1 [~unknown@p4FF0B479.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:54 C-c ~ 13:15:24 cYmen: I'm interested in that too 13:16:22 interactively, C-c ~ in slime, propgramatically sb-posix:chdir 13:16:24 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 13:16:28 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A888.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:16:42 the CL concept of current directory is *default-pathname-defaults* 13:17:35 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 13:19:21 *department-of-redundancy-department* 13:19:32 cYmen: press , from repl 13:19:39 cYmen: then enter the new directory 13:20:17 yeah there's also ,cd 13:20:46 Phoodus: The name actually makes sense; many pathname related functions take an &optional variable called DEFAULTS 13:20:58 and *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* is the default value for that optional 13:21:05 yeah, I know. default-pathname, and gthe defaults that go into it 13:22:03 so a global variable? 13:22:10 is there a list of these variables? 13:22:17 special variable, dynamic extent 13:22:30 try to autocomplete * 13:22:31 Posterdati: CLHS comes with an index 13:23:16 C-c I (find-package :cl) then click on "present symbols", then click on "[group by classification]", then search for BOUNDP 13:24:30 tcr: I clicked nothing happens 13:24:40 tcr: 978 present symbols. 13:24:40 978 external symbols. 13:24:41 0 internal symbols. 13:24:41 0 inherited symbols. 13:24:41 0 shadowed symbols. 13:25:03 ah ok, was the return key :) 13:27:41 -!- EarlGray [~EarlGray@79.124.252.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:28:10 X-02 [~kohei@p2009-ipbf407kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:28:56 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:29:06 tcr: with thanks 13:34:21 splittist [~John@AMontsouris-553-1-112-116.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:34:30 Merry New Year #lisp 13:34:41 splittist: Thanks! You too! 13:35:23 Thank you, beach (: 13:37:11 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:39:27 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:39:33 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.2.188] has joined #lisp 13:40:26 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 13:43:30 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-203.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:44:43 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 13:45:39 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-131-93.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:47:38 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.119.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:48:12 -!- me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-250-79.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:48:40 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@p4FF0B479.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:49:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 13:49:14 -!- HET2 [~diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:51:36 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:54:52 Hi! I'm a LISP newbie, and I wrote this: https://github.com/sanjoy/LispDump/blob/master/FiniteStateMachine.lisp, and I'd like some feedback on the general style. 13:55:04 -!- gtklocker [~gtklocker@adsl-16.109.242.171.tellas.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:57:42 You might profit from using a non-default struct constructor. 13:58:17 Instead of (if a nil b) (unless a b) 13:58:30 -!- churib1 [~tg@dslb-088-071-158-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:58:52 #'(lambda ...) can always be rewritten as (lambda ...) 13:59:41 sample-dfa appears to be missing quote. 13:59:58 carlocci [~nes@93.37.218.156] has joined #lisp 14:00:01 Ah, my mistake. 14:00:09 Zhivago: Thanks! 14:00:35 Why is create-fsm a macro? 14:01:08 Because I'm learning how to use them. :) 14:01:37 I suggest that you rewrite it as a function, and then have a macro that calls it. 14:01:48 *sanjoyd* nods. 14:03:00 You might also benefit from adding in default values for your struct elements that raise errors, if they are expected to be non-default. 14:11:39 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host251-180-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:11:49 Zhivago: a doctor in the lisp world? 14:12:30 rafusy [rav@torvalds.rootnode.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:23 Bronsa [~bronsa@host89-10-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:15:45 Posterdati: There are doctors among linux hackers so why not? 14:16:03 -!- rafusy [rav@torvalds.rootnode.net] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 14:16:15 rafusy [rav@torvalds.rootnode.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:19 even physicians? 14:17:36 huh. 14:17:57 gtklocker [~gtklocker@adsl-140.91.140.13.tellas.gr] has joined #lisp 14:18:23 -!- gtklocker is now known as Guest34259 14:18:45 -!- quek [~read_eval@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:19:55 schmrkc: Doctors with an MD practicing medicine. 14:20:00 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:20:22 dr Zhivago was a physician :) 14:21:08 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B479.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:08 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.80.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:35 ok I am very confused here 14:26:17 Happy new year, everyone. I'd like to ask how to define function names dynamically, like (defun (make-some-symbol) ...) 14:26:20 what is confusing you schmrkc? 14:26:35 beach: This medical doctor thing. 14:26:58 X-02: (setf (symbol-function (make-some-symbol)) (lambda (args) ...)) 14:27:30 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:08 X-02: to what end? 14:28:14 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B479.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 14:28:19 beach: define using setf.. I didn't think of it. Thank you. 14:29:39 X-02: No problem. 14:30:04 francogrex [~user@109.130.10.2] has joined #lisp 14:30:21 Xach: Specificly, I'd like to dynamically define macros with a name having a prefix, like =defun, =bind, etc. 14:32:08 X-02: usually you would write a macro to do that, and have it expand into the desired form. 14:32:11 Xach: And as the amout of macros are so many, I'd like to use a list of names like '(defun bind ...) 14:32:26 A macrolet would do the trick. 14:32:54 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.2.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:34:00 I smell Scheme here :D 14:35:05 Xach: Let me consider using macrolet for a while.. 14:38:03 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:40:29 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.119.164] has joined #lisp 14:41:59 Xach: Hmm, it seems to me that I eventually need the method of 'setf' above, even using macrolet. 14:42:00 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:42:37 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.2.188] has joined #lisp 14:43:29 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.193.201.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:44:49 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:48:03 in ecl doing for example (si:system "notepad") would launch notepad, in sbcl is the equivalent run-program or is there something else? 14:49:24 -!- Guest34259 is now known as gtklocker 14:49:26 X-02: That would surprise me. Share the code and maybe we can understand each other. 14:49:39 francogrex: run-program is it 14:49:40 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.86.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:49:43 Aaaaaaaaaaand, I'm back 14:50:03 francogrex: it requires a bit more than just an argument like that. 14:50:03 Wow, Land of Lispo costs too much. 14:50:12 gtklocker: Free to borrow for a little while. 14:51:16 ok i'll read the manual bit of run-program; thx 14:52:09 Xach: where do you live in? 14:52:21 gtklocker: I live in a pineapple under the sea. 14:52:33 That's awesome :P 14:52:45 gtklocker: There is a library nearby where I sometimes borrow books. 14:53:01 Xach: I just think of (setf lst '(sym1 sym2 ...)) and (dolist (sym lst) (dynamic-defmacro (add-prefix sym) ...)) 14:53:04 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.54.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:53:11 gtklocker: Unless you are very unlucky, I bet there is one near you too. 14:53:33 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.243.105.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:53:45 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:53:52 Xach: andI guess dynamic-defmacro must define name dynamically. 14:53:59 X-02: (macrolet ((dyndef (sym) `(dynamic-defmacro ,(add-prefix sym) ...))))))) 14:54:09 bsod1 [~osa1@81.214.240.169] has joined #lisp 14:54:45 Xach: I don't think libraries in here have books about lisp :P 14:54:57 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.196.237] has joined #lisp 14:54:59 gtklocker: Libraries take requests. They're like pop radio stations! 14:55:52 Xach: Yes, but when defining dynamic-defmacro, I guess we need the setf trick. 14:56:02 X-02: doubtful! 14:56:06 Xach: I'll look for it. 14:56:26 jan247 [~jan247@180.191.59.4] has joined #lisp 14:56:26 -!- jan247 [~jan247@180.191.59.4] has quit [Changing host] 14:56:26 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 14:57:03 Xach: Ah, yes, you are right. Now I got it.. Thank you so much. 15:02:35 -!- mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:04:54 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 15:05:05 Xach: Sorry, by this, "s" (not "test") defined: (let ((s 'test)) (macrolet ((dyndef (sym) `(defmacro ,sym () `(+ 1 2)))) (dyndef s))) 15:05:37 Xach: (s) => 3 15:06:14 right, hmm. 15:06:22 *Xach* can't think enough about it at the moment, sorry 15:06:30 *Xach* must start the morning routine 15:07:32 Xach: I'll adopt the setf method so far. Anyway, thanks. 15:09:08 X-02: when you're done, paste the code, and I will try to review later. 15:10:11 Xach: OK. 15:12:49 -!- peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:59 corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:31 peth [~anon@dslb-084-063-169-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:32 -!- peth [~anon@dslb-084-063-169-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:13:32 peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has joined #lisp 15:14:42 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-203.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:14:48 Xach: This isn't the "prefix version", but it simply worked: (defmacro dyndefmacro (sym) `(setf (symbol-function ,sym) (lambda () (+ 1 2)))) 15:15:04 Xach: (test) => 3 15:15:14 X-02: i mean the real code, not the toy to test the idea. 15:15:54 Xach: OK, some minutes pls. 15:20:49 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.21] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:21:00 -!- lambda-nil [~jhuelga@142.Red-80-33-85.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:23:30 Xach: Now I've realized I need a macro-version of lambda. Need some consideration.. 15:23:52 -!- kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:24:35 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.2.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:51 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:25:07 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.2.188] has joined #lisp 15:25:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.91.1] 15:26:36 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 15:27:20 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:23 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@81.214.240.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:30:11 ah yes, maybe I was thinking of (dyndef foo bar baz quux ...) 15:31:24 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:32:21 rgrau [~user@80.31.142.135] has joined #lisp 15:33:21 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host89-10-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:34:04 kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has joined #lisp 15:34:34 Xach: Instead of symbol-function, macro-function should work, but instead of lambda.. 15:35:08 X-02: it is not going to work that way. 15:36:00 Bronsa [~bronsa@host101-16-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:37:25 Xach: I think so. Hmm.. 15:38:58 Xach: With vecto, I'd like to use matrices (I want to generate a 300 dpi png, but with coordinates in point (1/72th inch)). I tried to insert a (scale-matrix 300.0 300.0) in the with-canvas, but it doesn't seem to change anything. What should be done? 15:40:53 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:42:25 slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 15:43:18 Xach: ok, I found the scale function. 15:43:19 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 15:45:18 Anyone know about SLIME getting included in Emacs? 15:45:39 Is that going to screw us all with an infrequently-updated version of SLIME hanging around? 15:45:59 Xach: So far, I'll give up the dynamic version. Thanks, anyway. 15:45:59 jan247 [~jan247@180.191.59.4] has joined #lisp 15:45:59 -!- jan247 [~jan247@180.191.59.4] has quit [Changing host] 15:45:59 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:46:25 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Client Quit] 15:46:41 gigamonkey: I doubt ALL the slime contributors will sign and post/fax a paper (that they transfer copyright or whatever) 15:46:43 http://ai-contest.com/ 15:47:23 Posterdati: ? 15:47:33 Posterdati: you can guess that it's old news here... :) mega1 is usually around here even. 15:47:36 a lisp programmerwon the contest 15:47:50 no, really? 15:47:59 your up-to-dateness is astonishing 15:48:01 lisp is the AI language, so no surprise. 15:48:01 gigamonkey: Were you contacted? 15:48:05 tcr: yeah. 15:48:14 For my one or two patches ever. 15:48:26 Funny I have not 15:48:38 Is your address in the changelog? 15:48:50 (not recently anyway) 15:49:14 tcr: ehh, that's weird. iirc the first wave of this started before you started to commit to slime, but at that time it was digital only. 15:49:49 Posterdati: subscribe to planet lisp. Most of the stuff you're posting here are already known for lispers ages ago. 15:50:17 attila_lendvai: I was contacted a few months back, but they started a new round 15:50:21 francogrex: what is planet lisp? 15:50:53 gigamonkey: I posted open issues I see with the slime getting into gnu emacs but they were never answered 15:51:14 http://planet.lisp.org/. I prefer using an RSS feed 15:51:49 heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:17 s/for/to 15:54:14 -!- kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:35 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:57:52 kae [~dsa@ext02.gsp.se] has joined #lisp 15:58:28 jan247 [~jan247@180.191.59.4] has joined #lisp 15:58:32 -!- jan247 [~jan247@180.191.59.4] has quit [Changing host] 15:58:32 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 15:59:43 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:05 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:06 francogrex: how can I subscribe it? 16:04:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-201-127.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:07:44 RSS feed is the best 16:08:00 at least the easiest for me 16:08:29 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-65-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:11:36 francogrex: yes, ok how? 16:11:47 francogrex: I'm using iceweasel 16:14:50 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 16:16:27 Posterdati: sorry i can't explain the details (especially not here). Please google for RSS and read how 16:16:47 francogrex: ok, thanks 16:17:21 -!- osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:34 sabayonuser [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:04 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:22:45 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-105-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:54 -!- X-02 [~kohei@p2009-ipbf407kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: IRCStep] 16:28:53 -!- slane [~slane@hostv.pl] has left #lisp 16:29:37 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 16:30:33 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.2.188] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:31:24 -!- sabayonuser is now known as osoleve 16:32:01 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:36 -!- blowers [~ian@84.93.146.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:35:40 bsod1 [~osa1@81.214.240.169] has joined #lisp 16:43:10 Where can I find an introduction to debugging lisp? Like stepping through code and such. I have a problem with the lazy evaluated code from Land of Lisp and it's just too complicated to fix with the stacktrace alone. 16:43:38 (step (some-function))? 16:44:30 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:56 hm...aha... 16:44:59 -!- gtklocker [~gtklocker@adsl-140.91.140.13.tellas.gr] has left #lisp 16:47:14 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:32 churib1 [~tg@dslb-088-071-158-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:13 daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 16:52:20 is there a premade sorting algorithm which takes a comparison function? 16:52:36 daedra: the obscurely-named SORT 16:52:45 can I see it's source? 16:52:52 M-. 16:52:56 daedra: M-. 16:53:04 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 16:53:30 Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has joined #lisp 16:53:58 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-203.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:11 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.119.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:56:07 -!- churib1 [~tg@dslb-088-071-158-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:56:52 stassats, Xach I'm not sure how to interpret "M-." 16:57:01 are you using slime? 16:57:06 no 16:57:19 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.10.2] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:57:29 how are you interacting with lisp? 16:57:38 clisp 16:58:12 interpreter 16:58:21 well slime has features like "M-." which takes you to the sourcecode represented by a symbol. 16:58:32 I guess you can grep for it in the clisp source. 16:58:33 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:02 do you use emacs? 16:59:07 no Vim 16:59:12 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:43 vlion` [~user@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 17:00:18 I don't use vi(m) so I'm not sure what the lisp setups for that editor look like. 17:00:31 but slime is the gold standard in the world of free common lisp implementations. 17:00:39 ok 17:00:44 the commercial lisps also have such features. 17:01:14 daedra: https://github.com/dmitryvk/sbcl-win32-threads/blob/enhanced-windows-threads/src/code/sort.lisp is how sbcl sorts 17:02:46 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:03:01 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 17:03:57 Xach: thanks 17:08:33 churib_home [~churib_ho@dslb-088-071-158-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:53 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@173.195.197-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 17:12:45 -!- galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:14:39 blowers [~ian@84.93.146.255] has joined #lisp 17:15:30 daedra: It can take some time but try to setup emacs with viper-mode and vimpulse. 17:16:28 and slime of course 17:20:56 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:22:26 galdor [galdor@def92-10-88-162-192-107.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:39 pff [~jon@vie38-2-82-245-114-29.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:59 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25:30 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:26:24 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 17:33:20 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:15 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 17:34:42 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:38 daedra: or you can try using slimv 17:40:00 -!- churib_home [~churib_ho@dslb-088-071-158-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: churib_home] 17:42:51 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:10 WonTu [~WonTu@p57B572F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:24 -!- WonTu [~WonTu@p57B572F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 17:44:36 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host101-16-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:46:38 Bronsa [~bronsa@host51-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:48:32 sohail [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:48:32 -!- sohail [~Adium@76-10-147-73.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:48:32 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:48:46 -!- vlion` is now known as vlion 17:49:25 I've gotten commonqt to run on mac but when I try to launch the tutorial in slime, sbcl crashes or something with no message Ideas to debug? Running from the command line shows no problem... 17:49:49 is the mac running linux? 17:50:12 i dunno what shape threading is in on osx. 17:50:39 on OS X, you need to run GUI things from the initial thread, i.e. *inferior-lisp* instead of *slime-repl*. 17:50:46 That's also where error messages would appear. 17:50:52 ah 17:51:10 probably the same for windows.. any idea how to force that? 17:51:27 Fade: running on osx fyi 17:53:05 I don't for certain that Windows doesn't have this problem, but I would think that any thread can serve as the Qt GUI thread on Windows; you only need to be consistent about it and not attempt GUI calls from a different thread afterwards. 17:54:02 -!- sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has quit [Changing host] 17:54:02 sea4ever [~sea@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 17:54:23 I seem to remember that qt is anal about running in the main thread on windows but yeah, haven't tried it there yet 17:55:18 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:20 so sbcl threads on osx are mostly cooked? 17:55:30 anyway, if someone wants to try, the notes I took are here: http://codepad.org/JGrCKRkJ 17:55:57 patch for kdebindings is here: http://codepad.org/85mvV04e 17:57:09 are you iamcheez? 17:57:11 yes 17:57:33 oh, you'll also be fudging around with the generated code haven't figured out a way to make it work 17:58:01 the main problem with smoke was that it couldn't handle including files from frameworks, so I had to hackety hack it 17:58:06 Regardnig the CommonQt patch, cffi has a macro to define foreign libraries; I don't think manual concatenate on the library names should be needed. 17:58:44 ah, that is a good point I forgot about that 17:58:54 As for the kdebindings changes, I have no clue regarding those. Can you get in contact with kdebindings-devel? 17:59:13 I could try 17:59:25 I am using an older revision there so it's possible they have fixed the issue 18:01:37 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:02:21 pnq [~nick@AC81353C.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:02:38 EarlGray [~EarlGray@79.124.221.42] has joined #lisp 18:05:03 Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has joined #lisp 18:05:23 -!- pff [~jon@vie38-2-82-245-114-29.fbx.proxad.net] has left #lisp 18:05:38 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 18:05:49 -!- EarlGray [~EarlGray@79.124.221.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:04 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@ool-18bbd5b2.static.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:15 -!- Hoornet [~Hoornet@93.103.24.156] has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:27 btw, ECL is usable for android programming with API Level 9 18:11:30 (Android 2.3 aka Honeycomb) 18:16:53 I lost my cdrom after dvd dual layer burning 18:17:08 it won't mount dvds nor cds 18:17:19 and k3b reports no optical drive found 18:17:38 Linux ATHLON64 2.6.32-5-amd64 #1 SMP Fri Dec 10 15:35:08 UTC 2010 x86_64 GNU/Linux 18:17:45 sorry 18:17:48 wrong chan 18:19:06 -!- daedra [~simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has left #lisp 18:20:11 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:22:11 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:23:26 (: 18:24:13 -!- espadrine [5a2ed347@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.46.211.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:26:08 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:26:56 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B479.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:34 earlgray_ [~EarlGray@88.154.7.151] has joined #lisp 18:28:06 francogrex [~user@109.130.10.2] has joined #lisp 18:34:09 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.10.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:59 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:38:31 francogrex [~user@109.130.10.2] has joined #lisp 18:38:47 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 18:40:22 Hi, anyone tried clpython before? I am using it in sbcl. would like to know on what other implementation it has worked already 18:43:53 dakeyras [~dakeyras@pool-173-64-149-152.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:29 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 18:47:20 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 18:48:08 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-127-222.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:53 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-39-6-83.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:29 -!- vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:34 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:53:58 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:07 lichtblau: am I supposed to call qt-repl:start-gui-thread from slime-repl? 18:54:09 -!- Posterdati [~tapioca@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:00 Cam [~root@unaffiliated/cam] has joined #lisp 18:55:18 Can I get a one sentence reason to learn lisp? 18:55:42 no 18:55:46 ok :P 18:57:09 Cam: If you learn lisp, you'll become the most powerful person in the world 18:57:20 sold me. 18:57:22 pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has joined #lisp 18:58:39 let's tone it down a little: s/person/programmer 18:58:59 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:23 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:59:33 "If you learn lisp, you shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." 19:00:06 twem2 [~user@87-194-53-22.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:02:46 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:51 Posterdati [~tapioca@host127-230-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:03:29 vokoda_ [~vokoda@host109-153-43-215.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:33 -!- vokoda_ [~vokoda@host109-153-43-215.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:03:33 vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 19:04:11 -!- MonsterMob [~s@77.28.116.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:05:22 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.196.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:05:29 Which dialect should I leanr? 19:05:32 *learn - common? 19:05:34 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:06:24 Cam: yes, better speak a common language. 19:06:31 >.> 19:06:45 Is there a good tutorial? 19:07:00 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.42.51] has joined #lisp 19:07:51 rdd [~user@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:07:57 lispm [~lispm@g224044193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:08 Cam: People suggest Practical Common Lisp. It also answers your first question 19:08:21 -!- pnq [~nick@AC81353C.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:08:27 vokoda [~vokoda@host109-156-4-236.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:31 I mean, perhaps learning Chamicuro would be very interesting per se, (and you'd increase the number of speaker by 12.5%, but it is probably more useful to learn Chinese or Spanish. 19:08:33 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@host109-156-4-236.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:08:33 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 19:08:35 Is that the name of the tutorial? 19:08:42 MonsterMob [~s@77.29.22.155] has joined #lisp 19:08:47 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 19:08:49 Cam: pointers are at http://www.cliki.net/ 19:08:51 Ok. 19:09:09 -!- vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:11:26 -!- prip [~foo@host64-135-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:14:28 prip [~foo@host64-135-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:18:02 spacemanaki [~spacemana@cpe-68-175-63-237.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:13 -!- xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has left #lisp 19:22:35 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:23:18 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.119.164] has joined #lisp 19:28:50 anyone know how I can get some code to run in the initial thread with slime? can't get commonqt's qt-repl to work with slime on osx so far 19:29:07 Use *inferior-lisp* 19:29:37 I tried that, that's apparently not it 19:29:56 commonqt might want to (or perhaps already does) contain a function that makes sure to evaluate a form in the initial thread 19:30:11 talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has joined #lisp 19:30:12 just to confirm tcr, you mean (qt-repl:start-gui-thread) in *inferior-lisp* right?\ 19:30:27 by using sb::get-foreground-thread 19:30:42 I don't know, I've never used commonqt 19:30:58 but *inferior-lisp* should run the initial thread 19:32:48 hm 19:33:34 how does get-foreground work? 19:34:10 I don't know and my recollection of what it does might be wrong to begin with 19:34:32 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:48 well, the function foreground-thread returns the thread named "initial thread" so that's a start.. don't know how you run something in that thread though! 19:37:03 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.10.2] has left #lisp 19:39:41 kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:34 -!- MonsterMob is now known as sm` 19:45:03 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:45:12 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:46:52 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 19:47:56 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:50:35 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51:30 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:51:49 sohail: sb-thread:interrupt-thread 19:51:56 balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:59 I don't see what SBCL's session model would have to do with this. 19:52:11 pinkwerks [~pinkwerks@74.68.129.122] has joined #lisp 19:52:30 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:52:36 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 19:52:41 -!- balooga [~00u4440@pool-173-55-252-200.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:52:54 Also, *inferior-lisp* in the initial thread on SBCL, unlike on CCL. 19:53:51 Can you confirm that CommonQt works for you in Slime now? 19:54:11 hmm, sohail appears to have left, hmpf. 19:54:12 Because previously you said that CommonQt doesn't work. Now it's qt-repl that doesn't work. Those are very different statements. 19:54:18 ah, he's back. 19:56:15 francogrex [~user@109.130.10.2] has joined #lisp 19:57:09 luis: I am here 19:57:10 In the latter case, the solution is _not_ to run (qt-repl:start-gui-thread), no matter whether in *inferior-lisp* or not, because, as its name indicates, start-gui-thread starts a thread. That is the opposite of what you are asking for. 19:57:20 sorry, moving floors :) 19:57:43 lichtblau: yes, commonqt works fine 19:57:54 now I have a problem running in slime on osx 19:58:23 sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:28 I've tried start-gui-thread in *inferior-lisp* but it claims that that is not the main() thread Also, just tried same in ~/.swank.lisp with same problem 19:58:54 ok don't start-gui-thread.. 19:58:55 Um, what? I just asked you whether CommonQt works for you in Slime (on OS X). 19:59:05 Does it or does it not? 19:59:38 lichtblau: if I run from the command line, it works fine 19:59:41 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 19:59:43 i.e., no slime 20:00:05 if I try qt-tutorial-14:main in slime, sbcl exits without a message 20:00:24 My question is unchanged! On OS X. With SBCL. In SLIME. Using *inferior-lisp*. Without qt-repl. Does that combination work? 20:00:40 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-183-204-63.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:00:41 tst_account [~opera@109.124.201.69] has joined #lisp 20:01:34 lichtblau: yes, sorry about that 20:01:45 -!- Cam [~root@unaffiliated/cam] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:01:58 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-204-63.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:29 -!- splittist [~John@AMontsouris-553-1-112-116.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:02:57 okay, cool. If it does, then you should be able to get qt-repl running if you modify it such that it doesn't create a new thread, but rather runs directly in the calling thread. 20:03:35 lichtblau: and always run in *inferior-lisp* ? 20:03:51 sorry if this is a dumb question :) 20:04:04 and then always initialize that modified version of qt-repl within *inferior-lisp*. 20:04:23 ah, I see 20:04:43 and then it should work in the regular slime repl? 20:04:44 The eval hook will afterwards change slime so that things magically evaluate in that thread. 20:04:57 awesome 20:05:28 (I don't use qt-repl myself, but I think it works for ivan4th and stassats, so with that little change it should also work MacOS.) 20:05:48 i don't use qt-repl either 20:05:53 qt-repl works fine for me 20:06:01 parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:14 I always start it from SLIME REPL though 20:06:36 ivan4th: on mac? 20:06:49 no, ubuntu 10.10 20:06:51 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:57 Cam [~root@adsl-70-131-92-171.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:02 -!- Cam [~root@adsl-70-131-92-171.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:07:03 Cam [~root@unaffiliated/cam] has joined #lisp 20:07:09 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07:15 -!- Cam [~root@unaffiliated/cam] has left #lisp 20:07:25 tried it on ARM (N900, maemo, ccl) too before, seems to work there too 20:07:31 iiuc, it won't have a problem on ubuntu because there is no "gui thread == first thread" requirement 20:07:43 it does show the warning 20:07:47 but I just ignore it 20:08:01 didn't have any problem with it 20:08:07 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-133-66.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 20:09:04 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 20:09:22 paul0 [~paulogeye@189.114.205.115.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:09:42 cool 20:09:49 I think production images shouldn't use qt-repl anyway, and for development the only problem I encountered so far is the warning itself 20:09:51 Qt warns just in case, because they consider it part of the API. But the requirement is actually OS-dependent. 20:10:07 -!- rgrau [~user@80.31.142.135] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:23 speaking of production images, any of you guys tried to create a standalone executable? 20:10:37 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:33 sohail: yes, as long as you consider "Lisp image plus lots of Qt dlls next to it" as standalone 20:11:47 lichtblau: yeah, that's what I meant 20:12:07 I want to figure out how to do it for mac/win/linux, then I'm set 20:13:16 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.10.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:34 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:13:40 It's not a particularly OS-dependent problem, but it's specific to the Lisp implementation. 20:13:53 I haven't worked to make it truly easy with SBCL. SBCL has the terrible habit of trying to reload .so files on startup using their old absolute paths, which is utterly useless for the purposes of binary distribution. 20:14:53 "psilord" talked about hacking that mechanism for his distributed computing thing 20:15:07 yeah, I remember that problem 20:15:11 yeah, it's not a difficult problem in general, just annoying. 20:15:23 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 20:15:51 do you know how to solve it? 20:15:58 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 20:17:09 The documented way is to use DONT-SAVE and then write code that loads them again on startup. 20:17:34 -!- tst_account [~opera@109.124.201.69] has left #lisp 20:17:43 sounds good 20:17:48 i need some help to understand better recursivity and pipelined functions, there is any good article/paper explaining how to work with them? 20:18:03 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:18:27 Obviously, SBCL/win32 binary distribution needs more work, so saying that it's not an OS-dependent problem isn't quite accurate. 20:18:43 I'm writing the dice of doom v1 (from land of lisp), really hard to see how all these pipelined functions work together 20:18:50 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see] 20:18:55 paul0: pipelined? 20:19:20 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 20:19:58 Xach: yup 20:20:07 "You accomplish this by using function pipelining and building a game tree that is independently traversed by other parts of your game code as the game progresses." 20:20:43 What does the book say about it? 20:20:57 vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 20:21:54 Xach: http://landoflisp.com/dice_of_doom_v1.lisp 20:22:08 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:22:12 -!- blowers [~ian@84.93.146.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:22:26 blowers [~ian@223.33.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:31 it is too recursive (pipelined?), I'm not used to this style of programming 20:23:58 mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 20:24:36 I don't know, perhaps i should just go on and soon or later, I'll understand how all of those functions work together 20:25:05 Hm. So I'm using (step ..) and always use step-into. Shouldn't that take me inside of functions? It seems that I only move left in the recursive list. 20:25:28 paul0: It's actually pretty simple how they work together if you don't think about the pipeline expression. 20:25:46 I think he just calls it a pipeline because he passes the gametree through all the time. 20:26:00 But it really doesn't help imho. 20:26:12 cYmen: it's confusing how lispers extensively use recursion, never seen that before 20:26:48 paul0: We use it much less than Schemers.. 20:26:48 they do? 20:26:50 one function calls another, and another, and another... Seems like there is no limit to recursion level 20:27:19 Well, all language call functions like that, no? 20:27:52 and far less than haskellers :) 20:28:09 Though there's a bit more of it in Lisp, perhaps. But when we talk about "recursion", usually, we mean a function that invokes itself directly or indirectly, not merely a function which calls another which calls another... 20:28:42 Hexstream: this concept is called "pipelined functions", according to Land of Lisp 20:28:57 another foreign concept for me 20:29:04 He's talking of function call chaining; or simply - using the stack to transfer data 20:29:09 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:29:16 Never heard this term before. It seems like nonstandard terminology... 20:29:40 tcr: isn't that the standard way to transfer data? 20:29:43 what's with the weird "UNIX" licensing requirements with lispworks 20:29:50 It's weird, it doesn't will cause a lot of data duplication, since each function will have it's own state of the variables at different levels? 20:29:59 cymen:: The reason why you can't do the same in C is because it lacks an exception system, so the return value basically has to be `int all the time 20:30:15 and you pass data by passing a pointer to a function which is then filled 20:30:22 fair enough 20:30:44 *sohail* used longjmp/setjmp for exception handling in C, worked nice 20:31:48 nmg [~nick@dsl78-143-209-226.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:31:51 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:56 paul0: I don't see the data duplication. 20:32:04 paul0: Your question is indecipherable to me. I think it's based on some wrong assumptions. 20:32:18 paul0: This way of doing things is much nicer because data flow and control flow is the same 20:32:59 pkhuong: But the data duplication would in exist in C++ because everything is passed by copy, right? 20:33:23 tcr: yeah, i can imagine this. But it will cause some performance issues at some level, wont'? 20:33:31 ? 20:33:45 cYmen: My C++ programs don't waste a lot of time on copying, no. 20:33:59 Only references are copied, not the whole object. 20:34:27 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:34:32 Hexstream: so, one function affects the data passed from the caller function? 20:35:12 So if you pass, say, a cons to a function and modify the variable holding it to hold something else, you don't modify the cons. But if, say, you replace the car of the cons, then that change will be visible (you usually don't do that). 20:35:14 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 20:35:44 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:49 -!- _dnb_ [~user@124-149-166-62.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:35:55 Well, you usually don't do that for conses but you might do it for other kinds of objects. 20:36:05 hm... since i've started programming, I always used imperative style, instead of functional style 20:36:56 In Common Lisp, we usually "default" to functional style but use imperative style, side-effects, state etc. when it makes sense. 20:37:42 Both styles are possible in Lisp, it's a bit easier than languages with single return-values like C/C++/Java/C# 20:37:49 yeah, I've read about it, and that haskell always force you to the functional style 20:39:01 Haskell allows only single assignments, insofar as I recall. 20:40:23 I'm used to php/ruby/rails programming, and almos all code that I wrote using them, where imperative 20:40:46 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:41:03 you have classes, objects and stuff, and a list of commands inside a linear code, without all of this recursion and pipelining 20:41:12 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:12 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:41:12 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 20:41:12 I believe Ruby can be remarkably functional. 20:41:22 vlion: yup, it can 20:41:35 (Lisp also has classes/objects). 20:41:56 but in my daily work, i use imperative style (let's say, to deliver a web page content) 20:42:50 Sure. The goal is to get the job done, ne? Not to spend time agonizing over how to turn something into a functional solution? 20:43:08 haskell has a cult aspect 20:43:37 JuanDaugherty: haskell seems to be for mathematicians 20:43:37 but I guess most lang specific cultures do 20:44:29 vlion: for the first time, i'm trying out this level of functional programming 20:45:13 i started reading the Practical Common Lisp, just got really amazed with the simple database on the chapter 3 20:45:40 paul graham's ansi common lisp is pretty mind-blowing too. It's available as a pdf somewhere. 20:45:48 It's like reading beauty in some places. 20:46:24 His book, On Lisp, is avaliable on this website 20:46:48 Oh yeah, that's the one I meant. /durp 20:47:14 vlion: Note that Paul Graham's lisp style is not widely considered elegant ;) 20:47:23 it looks awesome, I'm planning to read it as i get better in Lisp programming 20:48:04 fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-164-99.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:48:04 Hexstream: I've noticed that there seem to be schools of Lisp thought 20:48:22 vlion: As in everything else, really. 20:48:55 What's your recommended Scripture of Lisp? ;) 20:49:46 i've bought the Land of Lisp, because it looked easier to start with Lisp programming... but Lisp is still pretty foreign to me, or I'm too accustomed to OO/imperative programming 20:49:57 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:19 JuanDaugherty | haskell has a cult aspect 20:50:25 good thing it's so easy to do imperative and OO programming in Lisp 20:50:59 Most haskell projects are proofs of concept and reimlementations. i.e. "Haskell can do it too". 20:51:01 And with a bit of proficiency, any-style programming in Common Lisp. 20:51:21 So Lisp has some cult aspect too. But Haskell is almost completely a cult :D 20:52:08 yup, lisp is really flexible to all programming styles, but i want to learn functional programming to know how to use and when it could be useful to me 20:52:13 the most ridiculous thing about the haskell community is how broken stuff tends to be 20:52:26 vlion: My recommendation as to good Lisp style is to not worry too much about it at first, just get going learning and making stuff, eventually it will be time to think about polishing your style but if you obsess about that right at the beginning you'll get nowhere and/or have a big unnecessary opportunity cost. 20:52:28 if they could somehow get over that, it would conguer 20:52:34 *conquer 20:53:22 smka [~s@77.28.116.4] has joined #lisp 20:53:37 In my expirience Lisp stuff is not a lot less broken. But at least we have a lot of unique projects. 20:54:04 yeah but at this point nobody has expectations about lisp 20:54:07 @Hexstream: I'm not /too/ worried, but I do like to know where to go/what to read regarding good Lisp 20:54:21 That's the point for Erlang btw. They *never* develop bycicles :D 20:54:27 kruft` [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:20 and since lisp tends to from islands, rather than the broken aggregates of haskell, I think I disagree that lisp has a similar profile of brokenness 20:55:53 *form islands 20:56:06 vlion: Here's a good one: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt (First result on google for "lisp style") 20:56:15 fantazo_ [~fantazo@178-190-239-34.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 20:56:45 -!- sm` [~s@77.29.22.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:57:23 -!- kruft [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:42 what lisp has is stale oldness which is different from brokenness 20:58:01 mozinator [~Administr@195-240-33-225.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 20:58:07 used to work is different from never really did 20:58:18 -!- mozinator [~Administr@195-240-33-225.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:58:37 mozinator [~Administr@195-240-33-225.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 20:58:56 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:58:57 -!- mozinator [~Administr@195-240-33-225.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:58:59 vlion: PAIP is the closest thing to a good CL style guide I've read. 20:59:01 One of the great things about Lisp is that almost all the problems/lackings *are fixable*. 20:59:19 Hexstream: like LOOP? 20:59:21 but pretty much any text you read is going to have idiosyncracies. 20:59:27 stassats: Especially LOOP ;) 20:59:29 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@178-191-164-99.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:59:43 What's wrong with loop? It's nice. 20:59:47 iterate don't loop 21:00:05 JuanDaugherty: what are you getting at? how is haskell broken? 21:00:35 Hexstream: How's loopless going? 21:00:39 sea4ever: Soon you'll see how nicer it can get! 21:00:52 Aw boy, the LOOP war showed up. 21:01:06 -!- earlgray_ [~EarlGray@88.154.7.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:01:36 haha, I've read about lispers against loop/format 21:01:49 drdo: Going well. There's still a huge implementation effort to do. The other day I had *yet another* epiphany which will set back the eventual release date further a bit more. But it will all be worth it in the end. 21:02:19 Hexstream: Is it available somewhere? 21:02:24 github? 21:02:43 Loopless 1.0 is currently available, but it's absolutely nothing like what Loopless 2.0 will be. www.loopless.org 21:04:09 -!- heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:08:23 Hexstream: interesting. What's your sense of adoption of loopless? 21:08:40 vlion: I only know of one user of it ;) 21:08:44 Some of us won't touch it with a 10-foot pole. 21:09:26 sykopomp: looplessless? 21:09:35 indeed 21:10:06 You can save your criticism of Loopless because almost none of it at all will apply to the next version ;P 21:10:26 It's not loop. Does that still apply? 21:11:01 Barely. It will be a superset of all the great features of LOOP. 21:11:04 sykopomp: loop has quite some problems, you can't deny that 21:11:19 One LOOP to rule them all, and in the reader bind them? 21:11:25 There won't be an argument for "Oh, I don't want to leave LOOP because I like such and such feature" 21:11:39 Lisp has got 99 problems and a looping construct ain't one. 21:11:40 twem2` [~user@87-194-53-22.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:11:44 drdo: but it has good things too 21:12:06 most importantly, that it works for what I use it for! 21:12:06 stassats: sure, i just use iterate, it solves most of the problems i've found using loop 21:12:50 drdo: Loopless 2.0 will obsolete even the arguments about perceived or actual problems of LOOP. There won't be any point trying to force people to acknowledge these perceived problems. 21:12:55 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:13:33 will it be co-released with Duke Nukem Forever? 21:13:50 -!- twem2 [~user@87-194-53-22.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:13:52 Hasn't that project been finally officially cancelled? 21:14:00 no, it's coming out this year. 21:14:03 On the contratry 21:14:04 yep 21:14:12 It's going to be a sad day when DNF is released. 21:14:43 i hope my grandchildren will live to see it 21:14:46 Anyway, it's not like I've been working on Loopless for years. I find the DNF reference inappropriate. 21:15:00 Hexstream: "yet" 21:15:20 You can preoder DNF now! 21:15:32 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 21:16:12 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:29 fmeyer [~fmeyer@li212-47.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:36 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@li212-47.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:16:49 lichtblau: ping 21:16:58 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.119.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:17:02 stassats: That's pretty unfair no? Comparing to DNF even though Loopless hasn't been in development for long just because it might some day be a long while since it's been? 21:17:27 fmeyer [~fmeyer@li212-47.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:00 pnq [~nick@AC819D9E.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 21:18:17 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:21:36 urandom__ [~user@p548A6D35.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:24 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:25:52 fe[nl]ix: hi 21:27:44 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 21:28:54 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:29:09 lichtblau: all you need is cffi:reload-all-foreign-libraries and (pushnew 'cffi:reload-all-foreign-libraries sb-ext:*init-hooks*) 21:31:50 my cffi doesn't seem to have that symbol. Which repo do I need? 21:32:51 DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:32:51 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@60-242-109-62.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:32:51 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 21:33:00 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 21:34:53 -!- LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:35:13 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-158-96.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:17 lichtblau: I'll commit that in a few minutes :) 21:37:05 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:38:18 benny` [~benny@i577A1826.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:38:28 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224044193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 21:38:58 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:02 -!- benny` is now known as benny 21:40:31 retrry [~quassel@b4.vu.lt] has joined #lisp 21:40:54 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:41:06 -!- milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:41:28 lichtblau: are objects deleted by Qt automatically supposed to be removed from the cache? 21:44:08 -!- spacemanaki [~spacemana@cpe-68-175-63-237.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: spacemanaki] 21:45:40 incandenza__ [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:40 -!- incandenza__ [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:51 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-39-111.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 21:46:02 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:46:30 -!- nmg [~nick@dsl78-143-209-226.in-addr.fast.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:48:51 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0134a8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:06 hi 21:49:41 If I have two dimensional array can I somehow give aref just the first dimension and get out the list of elements belonging to that dimension ? 21:49:42 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:49:54 vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 21:49:56 no 21:50:53 then I have to loop over all elements in that dimension ? 21:51:00 stassats: here is how it should work: Objects created through smoke get removed from the cache automatically. Non-smoke objects never enter the (strong) cache. 21:51:08 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:08 stassats: However: 21:51:29 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:52:09 The quick&dirty fix I did to also cache casted pointers of MI superclasses does not cover removal from the cache yet. 21:52:20 Test and fix for that are... forthcoming. 21:53:24 (What's the background of your question?) 21:54:07 -!- vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:54:18 i have the following issue: i have a class with qt-superclass QGraphicsTextItem, i add it to a GraphicsScene, and then it gets deleted by #_clear on the scene, however, sometimes #_addText returns me a deleted object of the above class (while it should return QGraphicsTextItem) 21:54:24 prljavi_hari: yes 21:54:28 -!- peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has left #lisp 21:54:49 ok 21:54:58 oh, indeed, QGraphicsItems use multiple inheritance, and would be subject to this problem. 21:56:23 prljavi_hari: there is "grid structured data" out there, by LiamH (of gsll fame) that is supposed to handle that. Never used it, though. 21:56:28 the quick fix is to take the MAP-CPL-USING-RESULT call in CACHE! and paste it into NOTE-DELETED, while changing it to call remhash instead of (SETF POINTER->CACHED-OBJECTS), obviously. 21:57:19 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-ff2fc100-74.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:57:23 The lambda would do both REMHASHes currently done by note-deleted, i.e. for both hash tables. 21:57:36 let me try that 21:57:37 *lichtblau* really needs to replace this code with a new version that... makes any sense at all 21:58:54 -!- osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00:06 -!- twem2` is now known as twem2 22:00:50 It may be obvious, but when fixing these definitions in an existing image, beware of previous pointers still lingering in the tables. 22:02:19 as i remember, this superclass casting trickery is needed because i changed caching to work only on objects of the same class 22:02:31 no, it's unrelated. 22:02:47 Or if it's related, it makes your change unneeded. 22:03:36 i made it because i had a problem when the object returned from cache wasn't of the same class as requested 22:04:12 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:17 That's how I recall your explanation, but I still don't understand it. It would _really_ help to have a test case. 22:04:38 Hence I am tempted to, experimentally, replace your change with a CERROR. That way it would still be safe, but we'd have a way to find an actual test case; if you ever hit the problem again, you'd see it plainly in a debugger at the same point in the code. 22:04:43 Would that be acceptable to you? 22:05:06 yes, i still don't have a straightforward test-case, it happens only from time to time 22:05:14 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 22:05:49 antoni` [~user@216.pool85-53-15.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:05:51 but it's triggering reliably, i'll try to look at it again 22:06:12 milkpost [~milkpost@173-30-221-186.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:19 Okay, I'll prepare code for a CERROR then, when I work on all the caching fixes. 22:06:20 "RSN" 22:08:09 I've got some changes pending that I'd like to push, but before that I need to compile an archive of binaries for all old commits, so that I can run tests and benchmarks retroactively without having to rebuild all the time. 22:08:47 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 22:08:47 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 22:08:47 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:09:19 E.g. there's a change that helps on CCL, but before I try to make CCL faster, I first want to find out why it's currently 10x slower than it used to be. (With SBCL not affected nearly as much.) 22:09:57 incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:04 stupid sbcl, making me think sha1 should be really fast in common lisp 22:10:08 LiamH [~healy@pool-72-75-117-4.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:45 lol 22:10:53 =) 22:11:00 sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:07 Can PUSH push elements at the end of a list instead of beginning ? 22:14:27 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-105-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:14:58 luis: ping 22:15:37 push always pushes onto the front of the list. you could reverse the list and use push 22:15:41 prljavi_hari: yes. (push item (last list)) 22:15:53 lichtblau: so, what happens is that i return from an overridden method (#_new QVariant), apparently it gets deleted by Qt later, but it's still in the cache 22:15:57 pasting the code 22:16:03 ok 22:16:11 prljavi_hari: No, you can push at the beginning then reverse ot use appendable list structure described in SICP and used in most LOOP implementations 22:16:26 *or 22:16:31 prljavi_hari: have a look at nconc too. 22:16:35 Xach: have you read my paean to unportable code? (My article for ELS 2009) 22:17:11 prljavi_hari: (push item (last list)) is O(n). i.e. very slow when you need to push some elements to a long list 22:18:05 lichtblau: http://paste.lisp.org/display/118213 you need to press the button several times (just by holding RET) 22:18:17 -!- sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:19:26 sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:52 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:36 Hmm, can anyone tell me why this won't work: (defun a (x) (print x)) followed by (setf tmp-a #'a) ..why can't tmp-a be called as a function? 22:23:06 Depends on what tmp-a is. 22:23:07 because it has no function-value 22:23:20 So how is the function-value assigned to instead of the regular one? 22:23:29 sea4ever: clhs defun defvar let flet symbol-value 22:23:48 (setf (fdefinition 'tmp-a) #'a) 22:23:48 sea4ever: and http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 22:23:59 or (setf (symbol-function 'tmp-a) #'a) 22:24:16 or (funcall tmp-a) 22:25:11 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@212.20.125.91.gr6.adsl.brightview.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:25:15 -!- sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:18 Ok, stassats I see now. 22:25:29 mg4001 [~mg4001@cpe-76-93-28-217.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:25:38 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 22:26:11 -!- kruft` [~user@c-98-214-105-38.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:26:40 sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:42 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.211.67] has joined #lisp 22:28:20 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:29:44 lichtblau: qvariant is not a QObject, could that be a problem? 22:31:23 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d0134a8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:34:56 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:35:27 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:10 -!- sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:00 sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:37 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@li212-47.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:38:18 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:20 -!- pnq [~nick@AC819D9E.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:38:53 -!- sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38:58 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:39:37 -!- sykopomp [~user@crlspr-24.233.190.221.myacc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:39:37 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:39:38 sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:09 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:16 -!- ivenkys [~ivenkys@unaffiliated/ivenkys] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:40:16 aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:40:24 tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:50 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 22:41:13 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:41:38 ivenkys [~ivenkys@unaffiliated/ivenkys] has joined #lisp 22:42:45 Krystof: Hmm, not recently. 22:42:56 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 22:43:25 -!- alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:43:33 jan247 [~jan247@180.191.59.4] has joined #lisp 22:43:33 -!- jan247 [~jan247@180.191.59.4] has quit [Changing host] 22:43:33 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 22:44:45 Xach: oh, well, it's not important. Just advocacy to code for an implementation, not a language. (But I realise that what you're aiming for with QuickLisp is different) 22:44:49 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:49 -!- mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:49 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:49 -!- paul0 [~paulogeye@189.114.205.115.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:49 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:49 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:49 -!- incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:49 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B479.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:49 -!- Athas [~athas@130.225.165.35] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:49 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:49 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [*.net 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-!- jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:51 -!- ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:55 -!- smka [~s@77.28.116.4] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:55 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:55 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:55 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:55 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:55 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@76.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:44:55 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:45:28 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:45:56 Krystof: well, the point of CL is to be able to target the language, not a single implementation. 22:46:01 incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:01 mrSpec 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tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:01 lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 22:46:01 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 22:46:01 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:01 ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:09 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-238-209.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:46:19 Krystof: otherwise, we coul as well choose a scheme implementation. 22:46:23 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:25 Krystof: I don't mind writing to the implementation in this case. I don't think it's going to work portably. Not unless everyone else catches up with SBCL. 22:46:29 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 22:46:39 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:43 Well, I don't mind other people writing to their implementation and giving it to me... 22:46:55 smka [~s@77.28.116.4] has joined #lisp 22:46:55 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:46:55 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:46:55 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 22:46:55 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:55 amb007 [~a_bakic@76.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:55 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 22:47:06 -!- sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47:06 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:47:21 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 293 seconds] 22:48:26 -!- antoni` [~user@216.pool85-53-15.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:49:47 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:50:50 Xach: true, but in your case (i.e. wanting to support every reasonable CL out there) you'll need to write the de-facto-portable version anyway, in which case why bother with the single-implementation version? 22:51:02 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:51:53 Krystof: Because I don't want LispWorks users to wait 30 seconds to validate an archive. 22:52:18 right, that's what I mean by having to write the de-facto-portable version anyway 22:52:21 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:52:25 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:34 you'll have to write sha1 to work acceptably fast on everything-not-sbcl 22:52:53 so there's not much point in having a look-how-nice-it-is-to-write-fast-lisp-for-sbcl version too 22:53:36 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 22:54:07 Krystof: I don't quite understand. I expect to have a portable version that is very fast in SBCL and slow everywhere else, and (as people write them) one fast version for other CLs. Which one are you asking "why bother" on? 22:54:19 err, "one fast version per other CL" 22:54:40 ah, I didn't expect you to have to do the second half ("one fast version per other CL") 22:54:42 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:42 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host51-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:42 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- daniel [~daniel@p50829A3C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- sanjoyd [~sanjoy@unaffiliated/sanjoyd] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-218-205.singnet.com.sg] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- njan [~james@freenode/staff/njan] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- jesusabdullah [~jesusabdu@li225-26.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- timjstewart1 [~tims@159.182.183.6] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- guther [guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-giuckqejgznacmpn] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- shachaf [~shachaf@208.69.183.87] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- cods [~cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- smka [~s@77.28.116.4] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- amb007 [~a_bakic@76.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:43 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [*.net *.split] 22:54:59 I might take a shot at it for platforms that I'm somewhat familiar with. 22:55:03 (boing.) The de-facto-portability I'm talking about is speed portability 22:55:19 daniel [~daniel@p50829A3C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:22 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 22:55:23 I know for e.g. LispWorks it will probably take some use of the int32 extension. 22:55:36 I was expecting that what you'd do is bundle a C version of sha1 and cffi, and bind to that -- and that's what I was referring to as de-facto-portable 22:55:48 Oh, ok. No, that's a nonstarter. 22:56:12 (I know you can get actually-portable-but-with-huge-speed-variations with sbcl, but wasn't expecting the one-implementation-per-CL fallback) 22:56:13 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:56:21 in which case, all I can say is "bad luck" 22:56:32 -!- paul0 [~paulogeye@189.114.205.115.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: paul0] 22:56:34 and happy new year. Do you need a postcard from London? 22:56:39 Maybe the shame of slow SHA1 will prompt a flood of improvements! 22:57:00 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-238-209.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 22:57:11 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 22:58:00 cods [~cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:09 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:31 Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 22:58:49 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-218-205.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 22:58:49 Bronsa [~bronsa@host51-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 22:59:10 timjstewart [~tims@159.182.183.6] has joined #lisp 22:59:24 shachaf [~shachaf@208.69.183.87] has joined #lisp 22:59:25 jesusabdullah [~jesusabdu@li225-26.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:58 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 22:59:58 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:00:08 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:00:18 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:01:22 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 23:01:45 guther [~guther@gateway/shell/bshellz.net/x-dplyiemkhgxuhifk] has joined #lisp 23:01:51 No card yet. 23:01:54 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 23:01:58 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.119.164] has joined #lisp 23:02:18 slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 23:03:40 smka [~s@77.28.116.4] has joined #lisp 23:03:40 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:03:40 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:03:40 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 23:03:40 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-240-55.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:40 amb007 [~a_bakic@76.29.195-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:40 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 23:03:43 vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 23:03:47 -!- mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:03:51 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:03:57 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:01 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:05:27 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-203.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:58 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 23:07:07 sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:34 Xach: There was a project named trivial-irc. I can't find the official page but I have the source. Any chance of including it into quicklisp? Other IRC libraries are too complex for my needs. 23:07:52 I'll write a ticket if missing developer and home page is not a problem :D 23:08:18 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:09:09 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 23:09:55 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:10 mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:26 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:10:32 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-211-203.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:10:47 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:11:16 -!- sabayonuser2 [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:27 jan247 [~jan247@180.191.59.4] has joined #lisp 23:11:27 -!- jan247 [~jan247@180.191.59.4] has quit [Changing host] 23:11:27 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:11:55 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:12:44 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 23:12:56 now is contrib cl-posix failing.. 23:13:06 ups 23:15:03 if neither the stacktrace nor (step ..) helps what's the next step in debugging? 23:15:13 I would still be interested in a general lisp-debuggin howto... :) 23:15:31 that i don't know, but maxima fails largely with debugging stuff.... 23:15:40 it does not even :bt 23:15:41 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Client Quit] 23:16:13 maxima? 23:16:57 there's no real "general debugging" procedure. There's just tools to help communicate to you what the machine is doing, so that you can determine where it differs from your expectation, regardless of language 23:17:07 sabayonuser [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:27 whatever it's doing is correct according to the source code you gave it 23:18:31 obviously... 23:18:33 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:18:39 I just don't understand it. :) 23:18:39 so what are you asking for? 23:18:59 Oh, I have some code. It doesn't do what I expect. I can't figure out why. 23:19:25 Since I've had this problem with lisp before I was looking for something that will teach me how to fish... 23:19:35 if you're stepping, you can't tell at which point it wanders from your expected path? 23:20:02 generally I use trace instead of step 23:20:15 and enable that on the functions I suspect might be called wrong 23:20:19 or return wrong results 23:20:27 I didn't see that tool listed in your arsenal yet 23:20:48 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 23:23:13 here's a tutorial: look at the error message, if it doesn't elucidate, look at the backtrace, think hard, look at the source code, think hard, insert print statements, restart the frame, look at the output and think hard, repeat. 23:23:35 -!- sabayonuser [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:44 stassats: wow. C++ experts to the rescue. Here's my understanding; correct me if I'm wrong. 23:24:25 the dtor ~QVariant is not declared virtual. We use a subclass x_QVariant of QVariant, with its on dtor. The objects gets deleted while declared as a QVariant*. 23:24:33 Hence our dtor never gets called. 23:24:52 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-39-111.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 23:25:12 *Phoodus* got hammered into his brain very early in C++ to never use non-virtual destructors 23:27:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:27:35 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:27:35 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:27:35 -!- parcs [~patrick@ool-45741d7d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:27:35 -!- incandenza_ [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:27:35 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B479.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:27:35 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:27:35 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 23:27:35 -!- Soulman 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23:29:24 jsnell [~jsnell@ash.snellman.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:24 ``Erik [Here@c-69-140-109-104.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:26 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:29:47 -!- vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:29:57 lichtblau: could that be somehow solved? 23:30:22 lichtblau: for defined behavior you need the dtor to be virtual, or you could delete via a x_QVariant pointer 23:30:34 -!- stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:30:39 npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has joined #lisp 23:30:47 earlgray_ [~EarlGray@79.124.160.97] has joined #lisp 23:30:53 adeht: you don't always control everything when working with libraries like Qt. 23:30:53 adeht: I understand; it's just that I never thought about this problem. Many Qt classes have a virtual dtor; apparently not all of them though. 23:31:12 lichtblau: well... it's atrocious, but you *could* hack the vtable. 23:31:18 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 23:31:19 erh, no. 23:31:26 it's not virtual, right. 23:32:01 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host51-179-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: FEAR OF TEH DARK] 23:32:05 pkhuong: well, my second alternative will work given that you control deletion.. but the basic rule is: if the class should serve as a base class, make dtors virtual 23:32:26 The usual question is "what does QtRuby do?". The thing that I'm wondering is this: 23:32:31 adeht: right, now you can try and tell that to Trolltech. 23:33:06 how do you know up front if a class will be derived later on? it's always best to have them all virtual as a policy 23:33:11 pkhuong: or you could tell it to lichtblau, since he is the one who defined x_QVariant? 23:33:29 adeht: ah, so he's supposed to not want to derive from QVariant? 23:33:54 adeht: when I say "we", I actually mean kdebindings, which recklessly defines "subclasses" of lots of things one wouldn't normally subclass. 23:34:08 QtRuby uses a finalization mechanism to delete the C++ object when the Ruby objects goes away. (Which CommonQt doesn't do, because all those Lisp implementations are useless :-), but that's a different story.) 23:34:13 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:34:50 But that wouldn't solve this particular problem; it would only run into a double free. So architecturally, there's no huge difference between QtRuby and CommonQt in this specific regard. 23:35:00 They must be doing something else right that we get wrong. 23:35:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-123.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:35:17 lichtblau: do they hook in free? 23:36:13 pkhuong: Ruby, you mean? No, that's the other direction going on there. Ruby GC calls a finalizer-like thing. 23:36:15 -!- pdponze [~pdponze@144.85.121.191] has left #lisp 23:36:40 jesus fucking christ 23:36:42 Phoodus: usually you have a good idea of what classes should serve as base class and what classes should not (i.e. know which are entity classes and which are value classes, etc.) 23:36:54 so I had an additional ) after (unless (cond) 23:37:23 The "C++ tells Lisp/Ruby about deletion" direction is just done through dtors in the x_ subclasses; leading to the problem discussed above. 23:37:50 lichtblau: if it's through the x_ subclasses, what would the problem be? 23:37:51 cYmen: hopefully you noticed that because your indentation was weird after that 23:37:53 may I ask what you're talking about? 23:38:06 Phoodus: I did not. 23:38:08 cYmen: CommonQt's C++ <-> CL interop 23:38:09 -!- pinkwerks [~pinkwerks@74.68.129.122] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:38:37 cYmen: asking your editor to re-flow your source code is a good idea, it makes those sorts of things really stick out 23:38:43 lichtblau: but do you have control of deletion? 23:38:52 adeht: no, not in general 23:38:54 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:04 lichtblau: who is responsible, Qt? 23:39:07 (I think that also answers pkhuong's latest question) 23:39:09 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 23:39:23 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B479.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:39:36 adeht: mostly, yeah. In principle, you can bind to lots of other libraries, like half of KDE. 23:40:28 In this particular case (!), smoke actually controls the call site of delete. But again, we would hit this problem elsewhere, I'm sure. 23:40:58 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:41:01 lichtblau: QVariant is certainly a value class, so I would say the problem is kdebindings 23:42:04 sabayonuser [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:52 rule of thumb: kdebindings is never at fault; it's always the user misusing kdebindings features :-) 23:43:12 Phoodus: how do I do that for an entire file? 23:43:31 C-x h (to select all) C-M-\ (to reindent) 23:43:35 in emacs 23:43:45 (I think it's C-M-\) 23:44:09 -!- sacho [~sacho@46.10.4.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:44:21 vlion [~user@CPE-76-178-165-160.natnow.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:43 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:47:10 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 23:49:17 Phoodus: yup, looks good 23:49:23 thank you very much 23:49:40 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 23:49:55 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:50:42 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 23:51:05 hmm. okay, so this problem mainly exists with "value classes". 23:52:01 Who understands the transfer of ownership rules properly? Is it ever the case that ownership of an instance of these value classes actually passes to the Qt side? Perhaps that (by convention) never happens, so we don't have to be aware of the Qt side deleting them after all. 23:52:06 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:52:45 If so, we are only left with the special case of by-value return values on the stack, which we can special case. 23:52:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:56:08 lichtblau: are these even ever passed by reference or via pointers? 23:57:16 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:57:20 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 23:58:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:58:53 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:59:07 yes. I had to check, but QColor and QPen are passed as references often. 23:59:20 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 23:59:27 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.91.1] 23:59:52 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-238-209.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:59:55 The usual C++ "const reference" way of passing in stuff, I think.