00:00:12 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:22 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-105-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:03 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-255-145.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:02:19 -!- intronic [~user@58.7.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:03:05 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:04:06 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75fc98.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: good night] 00:05:59 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0AABF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:07:57 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-12-254.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:08:12 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-90-155.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:09:02 -!- l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:09:39 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-158-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:51 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-158-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:12:32 -!- binod [~binod@88-134-63-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:19:01 Xach: I keep wondering what you have to do to get invited to ROFLCON. whatever it is, I suggest you do it (: 00:19:25 (ROFLCON III is in cambridge, MA, in april 2012) 00:20:03 (you'd think making one of the web's most popular meme generation facilities would get you some sort of consolation invite or something (-:) 00:25:50 plage [~user@118.68.145.167] has joined #lisp 00:26:02 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:49 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.176] has joined #lisp 00:31:23 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-12-254.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:30 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-48-249.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:35:09 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.242.33.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:06 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:43 -!- leifw [~user@cpe-74-74-140-33.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:45:23 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-209-228.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:46:13 juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has joined #lisp 00:50:28 pkhuong: i'd be interested in seeing a comparison between your new series-ish library and clojure's seq class/operations, both the API design and performance 00:50:42 and evening everyone -- happy almost new year 00:51:52 slyrus: it's very much in flux, but I frankly have no idea what a good front-end would be like. I'm fairly satisfied with the backend, and there's a couple easy optimisations to add in the middle, so I think I'll release a preview and see what others might think. 00:52:08 leifw [~user@cpe-74-74-140-33.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:40 cool. I keep finding myself missing clojure's seqs when working in CL. 00:53:36 but, IIUC, seqs are just streams (tail-lazy conses)? 00:54:05 clojure seqs? 00:54:05 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has left #lisp 00:54:19 right. 00:54:29 are you thinking of lazy-seqs, not the various seq operators? 00:54:29 fezzle [~fezzle_@bas15-toronto63-1279473735.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:55:17 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:55:35 -!- plage [~user@118.68.145.167] has left #lisp 00:55:38 slyrus: the seq operators seem to also be lazy. 00:55:53 the can be, and often are, but aren't required to be so 00:55:57 s/the/they/ 00:59:38 the fact that the seq operators work on lists, vectors, maps and sets is quite nice. It's not like CL doesn't share some of these ideas, it's just that the clojure design goes a bit farther, in a nice way. 01:00:23 slyrus: so, it's mostly about the generator interface aspect? 01:00:54 well, the lazy aspect is nice, but that's a separate point 01:02:55 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@host109-152-179-64.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:02:56 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 01:04:55 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:34 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@245-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:11:22 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-48-249.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:11:41 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-21-126.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:12:24 -!- quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:16:07 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:17:45 bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:17:46 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:18:38 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:19:24 quasisane [~sanep@c-76-24-80-97.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:41 -!- valium97582 [~daniel@187.10.45.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:23:47 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439921.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:26:42 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439921.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:26:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29:16 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-178-002-105-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 01:31:43 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439921.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:34:37 aSean_ [~aSean@134-208-39-197.ndhu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 01:35:01 -!- aSean [~aSean@134-208-39-197.ndhu.edu.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:38:03 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:35 Kizaru [zalp@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:51 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.187.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:42:26 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.150.179] has joined #lisp 01:43:58 jimrthy [~jimrthy@ip68-13-249-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:38 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 01:47:24 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:48:48 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-76-102-192-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:52:15 so i'm working through land of lisp and i'm on the make-city-edges function in chapter 8 (for those who have the book). when i compile and try to call this function, clisp always says i'm providing too many arguments to make-city-edges-1 01:52:49 Can you give a pastie link to make-city-edges-1 and your call to it? 01:53:01 yep 01:53:29 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:39 BTW do you like the book? 01:54:02 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118130 01:54:15 i'm new to lisp, did a little of scheme here and there, but yes. i'm enjoying it 01:54:17 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 01:54:44 Okay, what's the pastie for make-citie-edges-1? 01:55:11 that's the thing, there isn't a function named that. from a uqick search on google, it seems the let* is compiled to make-city-edges-1 01:55:18 O.o 01:55:43 I don't have the book, so I'm just trying to debug by inference 01:55:52 yeah 01:55:56 i don't think it's a book error 01:56:00 the error is pretty much the same as this 01:56:01 http://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=253 01:56:02 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:18 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:56:28 let* does not compile to make-city-edges-1, let* compiles to a sequentially ordered set of lets. 01:57:07 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:57:20 i am using clisp, in case it matters 01:57:39 Try (macroexpand-1 '()) That will do a 1-level macro expansion 01:57:41 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:58:02 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:58:32 -!- Kizaru [zalp@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:58:37 zalp` [zalp@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:55 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439921.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:58:56 the repl printed nil 01:59:04 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:59:13 stupid irc client crashed 01:59:24 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:59:42 That's odd. 01:59:56 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:01 Kizaru [~user@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:32 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:49 -!- schoppenhauer1 [~christoph@p5B0BD47B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:00:50 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:01:12 so yeah, the repl printed nil 02:01:28 Kizaru: I would suggest cutting down all the 'fluff' in the function and isolating the error. 02:01:28 Is there a quick and dirty way to (destructively) remove the last element from a list? 02:01:54 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 02:02:29 Not quick, but would (setf seq (reverse (cdr (reverse seq)))) do it? 02:02:46 Lymia [~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan] has joined #lisp 02:03:23 -!- zalp` [zalp@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:03:45 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.192.85] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:04:35 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:05:49 (remove (car (last lst)) lst) works 02:05:58 pnq [~nick@172.162.42.6] has joined #lisp 02:07:06 hmm 02:07:08 that doesn't work 02:09:39 xach: are you there? 02:10:49 vlion: I changed the lambda inside make-city-edges to accept one argument, x. it works now, but i'm not sure why 02:10:54 that argument isn't used 02:11:00 Kizaru - 1 moment let me see 02:11:43 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 02:12:16 http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~cmcurtin/HyperSpec/Body/fun_removecm__elete-if-not.html 02:12:19 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 02:12:40 The remove-if-not expects the test to be a function that takes 1 argument. 02:12:56 ah 02:12:58 i see, thanks 02:13:27 There are a few functions like that laying around. 02:13:32 -!- Kizaru [~user@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 02:13:53 zalp` [zalp@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:58 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:25 -!- bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:16:23 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-127-222.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:16:34 -!- yonatan_ [~yonatan@89-139-30-119.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:17:19 yonatan_ [~yonatan@93-172-102-109.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 02:17:58 valium97582 [~daniel@187.10.45.61] has joined #lisp 02:20:02 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:20:49 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:00 JuniorRoy [~Work@ns.nkmk.ru] has joined #lisp 02:25:15 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:29:32 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.195.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:29:53 -!- tmh [633c8794@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:35:02 which CL implementation can compile to assembly? clisp only seems to compile to bytecode 02:35:39 unkanon: I think clisp is the only one that doesn't, among popular implementations. 02:35:53 ABCL is debatable, I suppose. 02:36:12 off the top of your head, can you name a free CL that does that? 02:36:24 I'll be googling it anyway so don't sweat it :) 02:36:35 unkanon: SBCL, CCL, ECL, ABCL. 02:36:45 oh, so literally all others :) 02:37:48 I plan on using clisp for an OpenGL game-like program. 02:38:02 do you think that's a dumb idea? 02:38:43 unkanon: I don't know that many people use clisp for opengl games. CCL, ECL and SBCL seem more popular. 02:39:12 just say it to my face that I wasted all this time compiling clisp for nothing :P 02:39:35 unkanon: not necessarily. It might be useful someday :) 02:39:42 I'm on a mac. I think I'll pick SBCL, I've read nice things about it 02:39:51 unkanon: get CCL if you're on a Mac 02:40:22 while SBCL is good and is definitely faster, OSX is one of CCL's main platforms, while SBCL/Darwin seems much less important than linux 02:41:39 in a way, SBCL is a unix lisp that got ported to OSX, while CCL is a Mac Lisp that got ported to other systems (great simplification, but might show the picture) 02:42:12 right, that paints a good picture for me. I'll go with CCL then (maybe there's a .dmg file even) 02:42:43 afaik there is 02:42:49 http://ccl.clozure.com/download.html 02:43:39 there is also a Cocoa bridge and a tool to bundle image into application 02:43:43 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:45:16 what do you mean by bundle image into application? do you mean making a dmg for my application or joining my source code with a vm? 02:46:12 -!- gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:46:34 gko [~gko@211.21.137.140] has joined #lisp 02:47:29 -!- Soulman [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 02:50:11 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:50:11 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:50:12 -!- espadrine` is now known as espadrine 02:50:53 unkanon: generating a complete .app folder 02:51:22 oh, nice 02:51:22 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51:31 as long as it translates to native code 02:51:32 that you can then modify with a different icon or various necessary resources, and ship as a complete application 02:51:37 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:51:48 that's really nice for a free product such as CCL 02:51:57 I'm downloading the dmg now (121MB) 02:52:13 unkanon: it's commercially supported. 02:52:22 unkanon: it ships a dumped image together with the runtime, making a single executable out of it (though the .app folder might use a separate runtime and image, I don't know) 02:52:44 it's also a fork of a commercial CL implementation, afaik 02:53:03 maclisp 02:53:23 so the source code is retrievable? 02:53:38 The dmg is large because it's a) a Subversion working copy (so that's about a 2x size increase), and b) contains pre-built 32- and 64-bit versions of the Cocoa-based IDE. 02:53:51 unkanon: yes, actually, the usual way to install CCL on Linux is to use SVN 02:53:59 Phoodus: erh, no. maclisp is quite a bit older than macintoshes. 02:54:11 oh wait, mcl, not maclisp is the ccl's daddy 02:54:24 http://ccl.clozure.com/history.html 02:54:30 no, I mean, when I compile my application to distribute it, can my users retrieve my source code? 02:54:31 Phoodus: I'm not sure, but I think Maclisp is older than Apple corporation whole :) 02:54:35 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@76-10-163-203.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55:02 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:55:42 unkanon: technically, it's possible for every executable... CCL won't bundle code, but someone good at RE with CL (and CCL internals) knowledge might manage to recreate a lot... though not the macros :D 02:55:56 to avoid confusion, they called it "clozure". in the same year that "clojure" came out, apparently 02:56:14 p_l: ype 02:56:16 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 02:56:17 yep 02:56:25 yes, I know, but I mean, would they retrieve the lisp code or just assembly? 02:56:42 unkanon: assembly 02:56:51 p_l|backup: awesome then. 02:57:11 Clozure Associates (the company that sponsors ccl development, and my employer) was founded in 2000. 02:57:16 CCL is an incremental compiler, so it doesn't really keep the source code 02:57:31 SBCL is the same unless you enable the evaluator 02:58:40 sh10151 [~sh10151@cpe-76-181-66-90.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:01:33 does CLISP even keep the source symbols around, or just compile its own bytecode? 03:01:45 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:01:46 (not source symbols, symbolic source lists) 03:02:06 unkanon: latest clisp has a JITC so it can compile to native code as well as ABCL, if ABCL can. 03:02:40 pjb: cool, what's it's performance like? 03:02:45 -' 03:02:46 Phoodus: COMPILE keeps the source. COMPILE-FILE loses it. 03:03:07 Phoodus: it's alpha. But since clisp is already quite fast with it's byte code... 03:03:43 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 03:04:05 well, "quite fast" to me means as fast or faster than SBCL to me... 03:04:31 You would have to justify my time for answering such a question. 03:04:45 heh 03:04:50 just curious what ballpark it's in 03:05:09 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 03:05:11 Clisp is in the "faster than python" ballpark, in my experience. 03:05:42 Phoodus: you didn't specify either whether you considered read time, macro expansion time, compilation time or run time. 03:05:53 ah, run time 03:05:56 I'd consider only runtime 03:06:23 There's no reason to consider it, since it's usually in the order of milliseconds, while programming is in the order of months. 03:06:27 Personally, I use clisp a fair bit. What performance are you really worried about? 03:06:53 -!- phryk [~phryk@yggdrasil.phryk.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:06:54 what programs do you write that only run for milliseconds? 03:07:04 Fast ones. :) 03:07:10 :D 03:07:14 heh 03:07:15 interactive ones. 03:07:40 that's quite a small window to interact in ;) 03:08:03 pocket_ [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:08:36 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:08:37 Even for programs running hours, what you want usually are functions that runs for milliseconds. For example, like 16 ms per frame rendering... 03:09:10 qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has joined #lisp 03:09:47 well, I'm in the realm o servers & business apps that are taking minutes to process stuff, so runtime performance is critical. Startup/macroexpand/compilation only happens every deployment 03:09:52 Does anyone know how to use with-output-as-presentation nestly? 03:10:16 Phoodus: in that realm, sbcl is a good choice. 03:10:25 yeah, but sbcl + windows isn't 03:10:34 Tru ccl+windows. 03:10:38 hence, wondering what clisp's jitc runtime performance is 03:10:39 Try 03:10:56 ccl64+windows = half the speed of sbcl32+windows in our code 03:10:58 Phoodus: it's less ready for deployment than sbcl on mswindows. 03:11:00 on the same box 03:11:03 I want to print-out some kinds of data-structure group in A type but eatch slot as B type. 03:11:18 Phoodus: then you need a commercial implementaiton, or switch to linuxl 03:11:32 Why are they taking that much time? 03:11:33 we had an allegro license 03:11:44 it doesn't generate as good of code as sbcl in our disassemblies 03:12:14 but it's been a few years; not sure how their codegen is doing now 03:13:57 ccl was actually the best CL on windows that we used 03:14:09 clisp works everywhere, but of course isn't speed competitive 03:14:25 we couldn't get ecl to compile under win64, though hopefully that's been worked on since, too 03:14:46 and sbcl of course doesn't thread on win 03:14:49 (yet) 03:15:00 it'll be a happy day when it does :) 03:15:58 phryk [~phryk@yggdrasil.phryk.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:25 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 03:16:56 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:17:16 bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:25 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:19:26 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 03:19:28 Error: There is no package named "OPENGL" 03:19:39 How would I go about fixing this in CCL ? 03:20:00 -!- rme [rme@clozure-1F3CDCA9.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:20:00 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:20:16 oh hold on 03:20:19 without knowing anything else, I'd say try (require :opengl) 03:21:27 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has left #lisp 03:21:44 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:22 hmm the pastie isn't working 03:23:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/118136 03:24:26 I don't know why the last line is commented out, it looks important 03:27:37 yay. reading iso-media/mp4 files, altering the meta-data and writing them back out finally works. 03:30:36 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:32:26 slyrus: Cool! Will that be open sourced at some point? 03:32:37 already is 03:32:50 slyrus: Project name or link? 03:32:54 https://github.com/slyrus/iso-media 03:32:55 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:33:01 slyrus: Thanks. 03:33:40 np. let me know how it goes. i haven't tried it on anything other than sbcl darwin/linux x86-64. 03:34:33 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:41 -!- pocket_ [~masato@p3239-ipbf2310hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:35:32 slyrus: I'll try to but can't say when I'll have time to play with it in depth. 03:35:58 ok, no worries. it's still a work in progress. if you have any questions, let me know. 03:36:15 slyrus: I will. Thanks again. 03:36:44 drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:40:41 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:40:44 redline6` [~user@109.169.54.131] has joined #lisp 03:40:54 -!- bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:41:05 -!- redline6` [~user@109.169.54.131] has quit [Client Quit] 03:41:16 redline6` [~user@109.169.54.131] has joined #lisp 03:45:22 -!- redline6` [~user@109.169.54.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:45:46 tama [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:02 -!- tama is now known as bandu 03:46:12 -!- bandu [~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:46:12 bandu [~tama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 03:50:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:54:26 If I have (defparameter *foo* 7) 03:54:33 and i mutate it: (setf *foo* 9) 03:54:41 is there anyway to reset it to it's "inital" value? 03:55:01 or do i need to manually store the default value somewhere else? 03:55:56 Reload the file. 03:56:42 well... yeah.. 03:56:47 Are the :initial-contents of make-array ever optimized to avoid (I hope) unnecessary CONSing for any implementations? 03:57:04 actually, that's not a bad idea if i put all of the parameters in their own files.. 03:57:34 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 04:01:34 csmax [~max@p5DE8EE7D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:37 -!- csmax_ [~max@p5DE8D794.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:07:29 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:07:47 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:08:48 -!- bandu [~tama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:10:26 evhan [~evhan@209.242.237.5] has joined #lisp 04:10:54 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:11:14 is there a built-in function to see if a list contains a value? 04:11:32 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 04:14:33 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:16:23 necroforest: Hmm member or something like that IIRC 04:17:17 (member 2 '(1 2 3)) 04:17:36 bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:17:46 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:19:21 mahmul [~mrw@user-0can1en.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 04:19:59 -!- bombshelter13b_ is now known as bombshelter13 04:20:06 -!- bombshelter13 is now known as bombshelter13b 04:21:10 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:37 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 04:29:48 -!- evhan [~evhan@209.242.237.5] has left #lisp 04:37:31 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 04:38:57 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night!] 04:43:32 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:43:56 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 04:44:15 -!- jimrthy [~jimrthy@ip68-13-249-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has left #lisp 04:46:32 bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:46:49 incandenza_ [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:23 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:48:09 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:26 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 04:48:53 Anyone familiar with cl-gtk2? How do I add items to a two column 'array-list-store'? 'store-add-item' accepts just one argument. 04:49:57 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Client Quit] 04:50:21 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 04:51:11 hi ebzzry 04:51:41 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Client Quit] 04:52:14 Xach: Oh, hi. 04:52:22 ebzzry: Got my mail? 04:53:57 I see it. A transcript would be handy. 04:54:10 I can't think of anything offhand that would be OS-specific in Quicklisp. 04:54:27 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 04:54:32 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Client Quit] 04:55:12 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 04:56:06 Xach: OK. Let me produce them. 05:00:56 Xach: afaik iolib is still quite unix-specific 05:01:09 -!- az [~az@p4FE4E91E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:01:21 p_l|backup: I was imprecise. I meant in the client itself. 05:01:31 though I hope to rebuild my windows machine and see into writing win32 backend :) 05:02:12 Xach: ah, then it's true - there isn't anything known that is OS specific, though I suspect there *could* be issues on windows due to home directory layouts 05:02:37 though it's not exactly a quicklisp issue 05:03:29 didi``: have you checked if it accepts a list or other compound object? 05:03:33 p_l|backup: quicklisp generally works ok on windows, except when it comes to getting emacs's and lisp's notion of the home directory in sync. 05:04:35 p_l|backup: What do you mean by "other compound object"? About lists, yes, I checked. It add the same the at both columns. 05:04:59 fgump [~gump@cnat099.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 05:05:05 s/the/list 05:05:18 Xach: yeah, it's an issue caused by POSIX programs expecting $HOME/. to be a correct location for storing their preferences, which it isn't on windows which has more complex scheme 05:05:44 didi``: there should be a GTK2 type for items 05:06:13 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:07:17 -!- pnq [~nick@172.162.42.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:07:34 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has left #lisp 05:07:48 p_l|backup: Hum. I can't easily find a definition in the docs. With C's GTK+, I usually indicate the value for each column. 05:08:49 az [~az@p4FE4E820.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:56 well, M-. is your friend 05:09:37 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.176] has joined #lisp 05:10:52 xyxxyyy2 [~xyxu@58.41.14.176] has joined #lisp 05:13:39 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.14.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:13:47 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.14.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:14:00 -!- mahmul [~mrw@user-0can1en.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:14:56 p_l|backup: Thank you for the idea. I saw its internals, but I couldn't figure out how I would to it. 05:20:26 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:20:58 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:21:36 -!- bombshelter13b_ [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:21:48 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.76.176] has joined #lisp 05:23:54 eppa [~mch@203-214-33-75.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:24:19 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 05:24:22 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 05:24:47 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Client Quit] 05:25:36 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 05:27:36 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp3255.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 05:29:47 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 05:34:21 DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has joined #lisp 05:40:14 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-iqasilntbaulunsj] has joined #lisp 05:40:14 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-iqasilntbaulunsj] has quit [Changing host] 05:40:14 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:44:08 -!- incandenza_ [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:44:32 incandenza_ [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:22 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp3255.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 05:49:28 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:53:23 -!- paul0 [~paulogeye@187.112.249.73] has quit [Quit: paul0] 05:53:51 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:13 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-65.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:56:57 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 05:57:01 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-71.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:00:28 -!- zalp` [zalp@pool-173-76-170-157.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:12:29 -!- incandenza_ [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 06:15:06 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:18:00 -!- didi`` [~user@scorpion.tdkom.psi.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:18:35 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:21:16 plage [~user@113.161.72.89] has joined #lisp 06:21:23 Good afternoon everyone! 06:23:36 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:24:08 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 06:24:10 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 06:30:49 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:30:59 -!- Phoodus [~foo@174-17-245-93.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [] 06:33:15 jeromebaum [~jeromebau@xdsleh221.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:36:04 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-204-63.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:36:41 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-183-204-63.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:45 Phoodus [~foo@174-17-245-93.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:12 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:39:31 -!- sam_ [~chatzilla@140.112.218.83] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101206122310]] 06:39:46 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 06:41:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:44:42 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:47:28 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:47:51 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 06:48:22 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Client Quit] 06:51:30 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.76.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:57:17 tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:29 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.76.176] has joined #lisp 07:01:49 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:02:19 -!- plage [~user@113.161.72.89] has left #lisp 07:02:33 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.62.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:10:57 Say, anyone offhand know if SBCL's window's port will be brought up to date in the 'near future' 07:10:58 ? 07:14:20 <_3b> there is a fork working on it, there is discussion on the mailing list about merging it back into the main repo 07:15:07 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.11.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:15:29 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:15:41 Niice 07:15:44 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-154-209.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 07:15:48 zobbo [~ian@84.93.146.255] has joined #lisp 07:17:17 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:17:22 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.76.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:20:11 longshot [~longshot@180.184.10.244] has joined #lisp 07:20:23 morning 07:20:43 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:20:43 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:20:43 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:20:45 Good midnight to you 07:24:03 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:26:06 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:28:56 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:28:56 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection 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[~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:57:30 tcr [~tcr@77-20-119-246-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:46 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has joined #lisp 08:03:14 -!- incandenza_ [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 08:03:36 Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.186.33] has joined #lisp 08:05:34 Anyone here use the command-line-arguments package? 08:06:40 mega1 [~mega1@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:08:58 -!- jeromebaum [~jeromebau@xdsleg003.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:11:56 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:46 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:16:46 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:46 -!- espadrine` is now known as espadrine 08:17:19 -!- nimred [nimred@unaffiliated/nahra] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:21:30 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:21:40 good morning 08:21:47 hi 08:21:55 moin mvilleneuve , vlion 08:22:16 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-47-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:22:17 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:23:06 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:25:49 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-41-122.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:25:49 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:31:47 -!- sacho [~sacho@90.154.208.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:37:53 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:37:53 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37:53 -!- espadrine` is now known as espadrine 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quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:29:41 espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:29:56 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0AABF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:33:02 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:33:02 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:03 -!- espadrine` is now known as espadrine 11:35:13 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 11:37:53 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 11:39:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Client Quit] 11:40:39 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-68-160-64.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:41:08 ramus [~ramus@99.23.134.197] has joined #lisp 11:45:52 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:45:52 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45:52 -!- espadrine` is now known as espadrine 11:51:26 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:51:26 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:51:26 -!- espadrine` is now known as espadrine 11:52:47 espadrine: connection trouble? 11:52:58 -!- Dranik [~dim@86.57.253.61] has left #lisp 11:54:23 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:55:52 hi xach, thanks for quicklisp - it has made things a lot easier to play with 11:56:56 Glad to hear it! 11:57:07 last night I was putting together an experiment using cl-ppcre 11:57:27 I want to consume stdin, but at the repl its not that simple 11:57:51 I guess its best to just pass in a stream which can be easy to obtain at the repl 11:58:24 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:58:39 anyway, it was late and I put it in a separate file and invoked it like sbcl --script test.lisp < myfile 11:59:31 but --script means .sbclrc isn't read, so I had to put (load "~/.sbclrc") (ql:quickload 'cl-ppcre) at the top 11:59:45 and that's suboptimal 12:00:20 I know about save-lisp-and-die to produce an image 12:00:47 but I can imagine getting confused about which image has what exactly loaded 12:00:53 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e9b8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:18 'morning 12:01:27 is there a middle ground, should I use asdf to load the things that I've installed with quicklisp? 12:01:28 spacebat: It's easy to precisely control what's loaded with something like http://xach.com/lisp/buildapp 12:01:35 sorry, long rambling question :) 12:01:49 spacebat: do you use slime? 12:01:53 yes 12:02:08 I'll look at it xach thanks 12:02:09 spacebat: I don't think sbcl is suitable for shebang scripts in general, sorry. 12:02:09 -!- warzl [~warzl@159.153.4.50] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:02:13 /names\ 12:02:18 hi frodef 12:02:20 yeah :) 12:02:25 hi Xach 12:02:56 warzl [~warzl@159.153.4.50] has joined #lisp 12:04:11 I was just playing around with adw-charting and got it to render to a vecto canvas displayed in an sdl window 12:04:45 took a bit of poking around with unexported symbols, the two packages don't want to play nice 12:05:35 arrrghh, it's just really hit home how nice it is to be able to compile individual forms 12:05:38 but throwing up charts on the fly is what I used to do when I started programming, so I'm pleased 12:06:37 espadrine` [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:06:37 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:06:38 -!- espadrine` is now known as espadrine 12:06:41 I made one tiny change in a C# project now I have to wait ~2 mins for it to compile 12:07:29 compile time breathes life into IRC 12:08:14 to be fair my computer is not very good 12:08:26 I need to get a proper dev machine 12:09:09 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 12:09:14 I recently got one of those 6 core 64 bit AMD CPUs 12:09:20 it was pretty cheap 12:09:29 yeah I was looking at one last night actually 12:09:39 very reasonably priced 12:10:11 now firefox can have its core and eat it, while I get on with stuff 12:10:16 unfortunately VAT is due to rise here (UK) 12:10:29 yeah, had to happen tho 12:10:51 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 12:10:57 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.250.175] has joined #lisp 12:11:19 unfortunately my income for next month is pretty much already spent, so no new toys for me 12:11:46 sounds like most of the world's economies right there 12:12:01 hehe 12:12:42 -!- Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.186.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:12:45 -!- espadrine [~espadrine@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: 410 Gone] 12:13:17 -!- rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:13:30 rvncerr [~rvncerr@rvncerr.org] has joined #lisp 12:14:28 vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 12:15:23 astoon [~astoon@213.33.196.46] has joined #lisp 12:15:43 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:18:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:19:04 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 12:19:49 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2D31.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:19:51 francogrex [~user@109.130.67.221] has joined #lisp 12:20:36 ECL's release is set back 12:20:58 who needs releases, when you have git? 12:21:14 even the one in the git is fucked 12:21:31 revert to the one that is working 12:22:06 it's not only me, I dunno if you saw the last messages in the mailing list. Juanjo has problems 12:22:15 i saw them 12:22:36 I'll try to help if I can 12:22:40 "in dispair", I'd say. 12:22:48 but something that I cannot understand: 12:23:20 how come one thing works in previous releases and all of a sudden it's fucked up beyond repair or recognition in a new release 12:23:26 ehu: yes 12:23:48 francogrex: i can do this easily 12:23:50 to me it looks like he's not using incremental improvement. 12:24:21 he's trying different approaches. 12:24:21 ehu: yes. between us, i'm having doubts he knows what he's doing at all really 12:24:38 which means wildly differing code bases between releases. 12:24:45 stassats: what do you mean : "i can do this easily" ? 12:24:51 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:09 francogrex: i can break anything without breaking a sweat 12:25:11 ehu: agree with you 12:25:29 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:31 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:48 Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.192.242] has joined #lisp 12:26:13 stassats: but you have to see really, i'm comparing src codes between just the previous release and the new one (in git), as ehu says, it's like he's reinventing the wheel everytime 12:26:40 is rewriting bad, per se? 12:27:13 no. 12:27:24 but if it leads to dispair, you should really start wondering. 12:27:28 some aspects are almost 90% changed. No rewriting is good, but come one, "incremental improvement" is the key 12:27:38 i can take the first revision and the current revision of my program, and i'd say that it's written by a different person 12:27:56 he's like, rewrting the compiler every month? 12:28:03 although i was doing incremental improvements 12:28:10 stassats: I doubt it is to THAt extent 12:28:17 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-65.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:23 prxq: almost 12:29:41 anyway, stassats did you manage to have dffi ok in the 10.7.1 ? 12:29:43 francogrex: what's the largest system you've ever maintained? 12:29:59 francogrex: i don't use ECL actively 12:30:09 i only test my code on it from time to time 12:30:18 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 12:30:18 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 12:30:18 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 12:30:32 Krystof: only my programs, I wouldn't want to maintain a large system just by myself, it's stupid 12:30:50 it needs a team 12:31:41 it does? i think with careful separation you can easily maintain large codebases 12:32:06 francogrex: so, maybe you should be careful when you say things like "I'm having doubts he knows what he's doing at all really" 12:32:14 also, when caring for a large system on multiple OS and architecture, how wise is it to rely on the autoconf ? 12:33:15 Krystof: I don't need to say or not say anything, facts speak for themselves 12:33:27 francogorex: I'm not sure there is any viable alternative for the task. 12:33:54 francogrex: fact is he is more or less successfully maintaining ECL. I guess a little knowledge and understanding can be attributed to him 12:34:01 francogrex: are you interested in improvement or just in calling the facts? 12:35:04 and only negative facts, surely there are positive things about ECL development 12:35:28 yes positive things are the older releases 12:35:34 Well, it is actually ECLS. :) 12:35:57 hey Zhivago 12:35:59 ZabaQ: what do you mean? 12:36:22 Zhivago: i'm still banned from ##c ? 12:36:39 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp121-45-9-24.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:36:41 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:37:01 francogorex: I mean if you want to maintain a large build system on multiple Os' and architecture, there isn't much alternative to autoconf. 12:37:02 homie: Shows that the system is working, I suspect. 12:37:25 Zhivago: ? 12:37:46 homie, Zhivago: can you sort that out somewhere else, please? 12:38:11 prxq: sorry i had no option to message Zhivago otherwise, i tried though 12:38:26 prxq: and on this occasion i just wanted to ask.... 12:38:37 homie: why did you get banned? 12:38:47 francogrex: This is not the place to discuss it. 12:39:13 francogrex: not only that, i suppose it was due to join-flood, but normally i would have a way to unban myself with the help of candide or so 12:39:21 ok 12:39:27 Xach: you recall you banned me once, do you recallf or what? 12:39:52 francogrex: I don't. 12:40:02 because I was complaining that there is no good system to link dependencies of libraries... 12:40:11 and what do we have after a few months? 12:40:16 QUICKLISP 12:40:29 francogrex: I think you might have been banned for writing nonsense and being aggressively moronic. 12:40:31 We should ban francogrex more often. 12:40:49 It seems to correlate with advances in lisp. 12:40:57 indeed 12:41:12 +1 for more francogrex banning 12:41:13 Xach: please see the logs; maybe i was but the care fact I was complaining about what quicklips has brought now as impromement 12:41:14 ban early, ban often 12:42:00 I only accept getting banned for bad spelling 12:42:23 that's the only correct and just thing I admit is wrong 12:42:41 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 12:42:51 there should be #meta-lisp 12:43:17 Zhivago: yes, it correlates, but I have to complain first 12:43:42 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:43:45 Well, the complaints correlate at the same rate as the bans, but that doesn't demonstrate a causal link. 12:43:56 I think we need to investigate this empirically. 12:44:31 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 12:46:55 -!- fgump [~gump@cnat099.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:47:52 what would #meta-lisp be like? 12:48:13 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e9b8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:48:30 talks about #lisp 12:48:41 it'll have a protocol, for starters 12:49:09 there is a lispcafe 12:49:25 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:49:49 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.33.196.46] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:50:26 #lispcafe 12:51:01 -!- mgr [~mgr@mail.phinn.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51:56 benny [~benny@i577A3F2D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:53:05 quicklips 12:53:10 nice 12:53:27 spacebat, is that a typo? 12:53:56 bsod1 [~osa1@88.242.33.24] has joined #lisp 12:54:05 I'm repeating francogrex's typo 12:55:00 I think a lisp variant of the future called lips could be very popular 12:55:39 quicklips seems like a cheap and sleazy internet tv station 12:56:20 spacebat: there's already clips 12:56:52 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.103.148] has joined #lisp 13:00:18 antgreen [~user@CPE00222d6c4710-CM00222d6c470d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:03:48 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:05:51 mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:19 wzlxx [~user@115.60.174.234] has joined #lisp 13:08:22 http://code.bulix.org/sieveq-79117There is a piece of lisp code, it can work, but can not work well, how can i fix it? 13:09:08 heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:20 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:09:28 wzlxx: that's not common lisp 13:09:44 stassats: yes 13:09:55 wzlxx: this channel is about common lisp 13:10:04 stassats: oh, sorry 13:10:32 stassats: I just want to fix it. sorry 13:11:09 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:19 wzlxx: one thing i can say is that you should quote functions to apply them 13:11:36 i.e. (apply 'start-process ...) 13:11:45 guys, I have a non-lisp question. I'm asking here because it's question about general web application design. 13:11:52 and (mapc 'stop-process ...) 13:12:57 stassats: thank u, i will try it 13:12:59 I'm working with some frontend coders who design urls like: "/do-something?myParameter=foo_bar&anotherParameter=hello_world" and "fooBar.php" 13:13:20 -!- simias [~simias@2001:41d0:1:ae71::1] has left #lisp 13:13:47 these url designs looks crappy to me and I should find some arguments to claim that we're doing it wrong 13:14:10 any ideas/suggestions? 13:15:31 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:50 i didn't understand, why is it a question for #lisp? 13:16:12 stassats: which channel should I write in? 13:16:30 see my first message, I explained why I'm asking here 13:16:51 ##programming ? 13:17:03 i have no idea, but #lisp isn't for arbitrary questions which can't be answered elsewhere 13:17:39 but I trust knowledge of lisp people more than other ones. 13:17:51 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 13:18:45 This is interesting, it seems that recently all sorts of people come to #lisp asking all sorts of unrelated questions 13:18:57 Hey, I'm writing about some of Lisp's "baroque" or "esoteric" features like "~R"/"~:R", YES-OR-NO-P, etc. Does anyone have some suggestions on some more? 13:19:24 drdo: it's about reputation of this channel. 13:19:40 Quadrescence: how yes-or-no-p is baroque or esoteric? 13:19:50 Quadrescence, how about the -if-not deprecations and/or remove-if-not undeprecation? 13:19:57 stassats: It's just unusually rich to include it in the standard. 13:20:02 I don't mean useless or anything. 13:20:09 besides, y-or-n-p is better 13:20:18 Quadrescence: loop is unusually rich 13:20:26 haha true dat 13:20:55 <_danb_> sid3k: if you're talking about pretty urls, maybe try ruby or rails; rails is big on routing stuff and making it look pretty 13:21:07 sid3k: what reputation? 13:21:23 Quadrescence: update-instance-for-redefined-class 13:21:29 drdo: whatever, fuck that 13:21:31 vicwjb [~libirccli@60.18.95.55] has joined #lisp 13:21:41 or update-instance-for-different-class 13:22:01 drdo: "grumpy, smug, and weenie" 13:22:15 _danb_: that channel is full of newbies 13:22:16 Krystof: Hehe, nice 13:22:33 <_danb_> sid3k: that's why I suggested ruby; there might be less noise there 13:22:42 <_danb_> although I haven't been on it much lately 13:22:44 stassats: Eh, that's really not true 13:22:53 drdo: does that matter? 13:23:16 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 13:23:34 stassats: I'm not sure what lisper wouldn't be grumpy when they must use slow interpreters all day to do AI 13:23:37 Also, that doesn't seem such a reputation that one would want to pop in here to ask random questions 13:24:23 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439921.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 13:24:26 Quadrescence: at least they have yes-or-no-p and y-or-n-p 13:24:35 Quadrescence: I'm sure they're just grumpy after reading all those infernal parenthesis 13:24:54 The slow interpretation is just the icying on the cake 13:25:04 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:25:26 slow interpretation gives time for IRC 13:26:41 not really, slow compilation on the other hand... that's why so many people here are using SBCL 13:27:32 SBCL has certainly made great strides in the area of slow compilation 13:27:55 probably the top Slow Compiler around 13:28:09 you forgot C++ compilers 13:28:41 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:28:46 oh yes, the true champion 13:28:54 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 13:32:04 -!- vicwjb [~libirccli@60.18.95.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:32:12 phao [~phao@189.107.226.157] has joined #lisp 13:32:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:32:39 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.242.33.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:34:47 cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:40 fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has joined #lisp 13:39:16 phao_ [~phao@189.107.215.118] has joined #lisp 13:39:29 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.226.157] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:39:33 -!- phao_ is now known as phao 13:41:29 Edward__ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-251.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:41:39 and then there's GCC 13:42:06 nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:0:5efe:3b42:8f51] has joined #lisp 13:42:06 -!- nefo [~nefo@2001:da8:200:900e:0:5efe:3b42:8f51] has quit [Changing host] 13:42:06 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 13:42:12 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:42:40 mgr [~mgr@mail.phinn.de] has joined #lisp 13:43:31 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@cpc17-aztw23-2-0-cust59.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:32 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@cpc17-aztw23-2-0-cust59.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:43:32 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 13:44:35 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.122.78] has joined #lisp 13:45:56 Perhaps a more productive question would be - how can ECLS be opened up more so that there is more help available to Juanjo - SBCL took over from CMUCL partly because it was more hackable, right? Maybe ECLS needs a similar sort of thing to happen to it. 13:46:04 -!- SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:46:41 "more buildable" 13:47:34 unkanon_ [~unkanon@rrcs-69-193-217-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:25 cch` [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 13:49:25 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:53 stassats: right 13:51:04 Its ages since I looked at the ecls build system, but as I remember there was a library at its heart that provided the runtime for a lisp, which linked with gmp and the boehm gc 13:51:41 but it is open src code available to everybody and looking back at archives several were contributing patches before, but over time contributions dwindled 13:52:42 pavelludiq [57f63ac1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 13:54:50 Yes, but it's not because ECLS is not a useful thing in itself - its a 'C' based, highly embeddable Lisp, it has a definite niche. Some of the dwindling contributions might be down to other implementations and the improvements in CFFI squeezing that niche. 13:55:32 Most of the criticism of ECLS seems to be along the lines of juan doing too much work. 13:55:41 ZabaQ: exactly: 2 things SBCL is a HULK and with cffi it gained immense powers 13:56:10 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.216.14] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:56:14 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:56:41 there was one guy who posted once on cll that he forked ecls to something called makaicl or something 13:57:09 And there are people who dance about with fish on their heads -- why is it relevant? 13:58:03 Zhivago: fish on their head, Not where I live. he is doing too much for one person. How can one person possibly compete with teams of experts 13:58:03 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 13:58:20 Easily. 13:58:20 -!- Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.192.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:58:34 Most significant software projects are primarily lead by an individual. 13:58:37 it is relevant because that guy could have contributed to ECL instead of forking 13:58:45 Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.192.242] has joined #lisp 13:58:51 Probably due to better internal communication. 13:58:59 he had the knowlegde 13:59:22 So, the question you've ignored is why he chose to do that. 13:59:27 Zhivago: are you thinking like Wolfram's mathematica 13:59:43 No. I'm thinking of pretty much everything. 14:00:00 Teams are good at producing crap, or elaborating on an existing structure. 14:00:05 why he chose to do that wasn't clearly stated by him 14:00:15 Then it should be of no interest that he did so. 14:02:14 -!- bakkdoor|afk is now known as bakkdoor 14:07:02 what is wrong with this code: ((lambda (f) (f 1)) (lambda (x) (+ x 1))) 14:07:51 should be ((lambda (f) (funcall f 1)) (lambda (x) (+ x 1))) 14:08:20 oh.. thanx 14:08:41 people keep talking about this "embedded niche", but the thing seems to be pretty much a myth 14:09:12 cmm: what do you mean? embedded Lisp? 14:09:15 and where it is real, it is not served by paren-saddled languages 14:09:20 ehu: yeah 14:09:42 cmm: even scheme? 14:09:57 brodo [~brodo@p5B022A02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:01 I think it is as real as you want it to be. There are a number of users of ABCL using ABCL inside their Java applications. 14:10:05 is that embedded? 14:10:21 stassats: where is embedded scheme used, except for GIMP due to histerical raisins? 14:10:31 hi there 14:10:36 ehu: I guess 14:10:40 cmm: i remember it was used in some kind of virus 14:11:06 also, festival, text-to-speach thingy 14:11:10 stassats: OK, that's a promising market :) 14:11:35 can someone recommend a nice lisp "ide" for mac os? FOSS would be grat, but i also take freeware. 14:11:38 embedding has its values: for example at one point I could link a lisp made dll with excel's by VBA using ecl. Imagine: all the power of CL available to something like excel. I don't think it have been easy elsewhere. 14:11:45 brodo: Slime 14:12:24 what I'm trying to say is that ecl's embeddability is not a strong reason to use it. the fact that it can be used to deploy lisp programs on platforms where the more pleasant implementations don't run is, though 14:12:31 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:13:20 yes, agree 14:13:39 stassats: cool. i wantet to start learing emacs anyway 14:13:40 and for the latter use case, clisp is often good enough. and clisp is a stable high-quality implementation, not a constantly in-flux (or appearing such) one 14:14:01 clisp has its own quirks 14:14:24 cmm: thinking about the comment in "land of lisp" about speed in clisp vs sbcl I'm not sure that's a good argument 14:14:36 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:14:58 flip214: ecl is not exactly a speed demon either 14:15:03 -!- Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.192.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:15:25 well, I just wanted to elaborate on the "not constantly in-flux" part 14:15:40 sometimes a bit of change is good 14:15:43 ECL can outperform SBCL in certain operations, for example, numerical, because ECL uses GMP 14:16:28 Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.192.242] has joined #lisp 14:16:38 clisp shines there too, btw 14:16:48 (I hear) 14:17:18 flip214: no, change by itself is never good 14:18:02 if I can manage to fix the dffi all will be well 14:19:13 software companies do a lot of changes to make the previous product obsolete and sell more $$$ 14:19:53 francogrex: What's up with the dffi? 14:20:35 francogrex: do I have to assume that you are being deliberately obtuse when it comes to the word "good" or are you just making conversation? 14:20:41 ZabaQ: needs some tweaking on the new release. it's always problematic as it interferes with the ffis 14:22:07 cmm: please don't use such words, noone insulted you. stay respectful 14:22:23 who's Noone? 14:23:13 francogrex: you don't want me to use the word "good"? I'll try to remember that, thanks 14:23:15 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 14:24:19 don't forget that ECL is also the *smallest* implemntation in terms of binary/image size 14:25:36 now, equip it with a better GC, and it might go quite far 14:26:08 is it smaller than clisp? 14:26:13 p_l|backup: you'd kill youself making that better GC run everywhere BWGC does 14:26:25 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:19 it's about 4.5 MB 14:27:58 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279439921.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:28:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:29:48 Joreji [~thomas@88-227.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:30:53 stassats: come on, making fun of people's English, that's low. 14:31:21 unless he's a native english speaker :P 14:31:29 -!- cch` [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:44 it's better to leave them in ignorance? 14:31:53 oh hi. still confused about pointers and recursion? 14:31:54 cmm: depends on whether I take on Boehm's constraints 14:32:26 p_l|backup: if you don't, you lose a big chunk of embeddability 14:33:06 clisp doesn't use boehm 14:33:09 cmm: I'm not talking about using any special advanced tricks (actually, the GC I am itching to try my hands at only requires a single synchronization barrier) 14:33:25 stassats: false dichotomy 14:33:53 unkanon_: ... 14:34:09 -!- Joreji [~thomas@88-227.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:34:29 murilasso [~murilasso@201.53.192.190] has joined #lisp 14:34:56 stassats: on my machine, the whole packages: clisp 2.49 = 19424.00 kB + libsigsegv + readline; ecl-unicode 10.4.1 = 9536.00 kB + libgmp + asdf 14:34:57 p_l|backup: I meant that the non-copying aspect of Boehm's GC is a feature 14:35:26 cmm: VCGC, which I want to experiment on, doesn't require copying 14:35:37 p_l|backup: + gcc? 14:35:46 p_l|backup: you don't need readline and such for a "deployment" build 14:36:09 cmm: well, libsisgegv and libgmp are respectively needed for a deployment-only 14:36:10 cmm: lol sorry I didn't see your message 14:36:11 p_l|backup: ah OK, I'm awfully out of date CG-wise by now :) 14:36:31 on my machine doing (ext:saveinitmem "foo" :executable t) results in a 4MB image 14:36:49 cmm: it's a concurrent variant of mark-sweep with three "generations" of sorts 14:36:53 -!- wzlxx [~user@115.60.174.234] has left #lisp 14:36:54 yes that's about the size i entioned above; 14:37:15 why do you include gcc? clisp has a bitecode compiler to it's to compare to the image 14:37:18 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:37:38 stassats: you can also gzip the images, clisp will uncompress them automatically. 14:37:55 p_l|backup: and you didn't exclude extension package from clisp 14:37:57 stassats: libecl.so, which is basically the whole ECL necessary for a deployed app if you don't need any of the loadable modules, is a little over 2MB on 64bit machine 14:38:16 using upx and molebox pro, i could deliver exe images of ecl of 900 kb 14:38:24 anyway, the main advantage ECL has over CLISP is license 14:38:41 speaking of executable sizes, last night I compiled one of the examples that came with CCL for mac, and the executable was 100MB for a simple currency converter :( 14:38:55 p_l|backup: that would be the main drawback. 14:38:58 does clisp's gpl infect the programs it runs? 14:39:10 Of course not. 14:39:13 compare that to 0.9 MB 14:39:19 what's the problem, then? 14:39:35 cmm: as you as you don't access directly the clisp specific API. 14:39:44 Ie. use cffi instead of FFI, etc. 14:39:49 francogrex: did you do the same to clisp? 14:40:04 pjb: oh, I didn't realize that 14:40:33 cmm: Well, since you should publish your code under GPL anyways, it doesn't make a difference. 14:40:46 nobody here uses CCL? (I'm aware of the #ccl channel) 14:40:47 uh oh. 14:40:58 unkanon_: i use Clozure CL 14:41:03 unkanon_: you seem to be building a track record of wrongs. 14:41:06 I use ccl. 14:41:17 pjb: werent you also required to separate CLISP image from your own? 14:41:18 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-253-179.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 14:41:24 pjb: I'm just starting out in Lisp. 14:41:33 The listen more. 14:41:44 I am 14:42:13 p_l|backup: if you want to distribute non GPL code with clisp, yes, you must provide fas files. 14:42:15 no but you can try on an executable from clisp with upx --brute-force. I don't have clisp installed 14:42:27 i don't have upx installed 14:42:53 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0AABF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:05 it might bring it to the same size approximately. I'll have to test it 14:43:39 I use upx of dll produced from ecl mostly 14:43:49 upx on dlls 14:45:21 can one produce "standalone" dlls with clisp as well? 14:45:45 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.122.78] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 14:45:59 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:01 standalone, as in, working without an OS? 14:47:40 that you can distribute to people not having a lisp system installed 14:48:40 hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.122.78] has joined #lisp 14:49:05 or that you can put them on the floor and they stand upright on their own without falling 14:50:37 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.150.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:52:02 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:52:17 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.183.208] has joined #lisp 14:53:30 so does anyone have any idea why when I compiled the currency converter example, I got a 100MB app? 14:53:52 okflo [~user@93-82-150-123.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 14:54:01 because you compile the whole lisp runtime as well? 14:55:07 drdo` [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:56:18 -!- okflo [~user@93-82-150-123.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:25 most probably, but how do I not do that? 14:56:31 I only saw two options on the menu 14:56:36 compile, and compile and load 14:56:51 -!- drdo [~user@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:57:02 if you only starting in lisp, don't bother with this yet 14:57:21 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:58:16 just focus on the language, you say? 14:58:28 don't bother with the environment/IDE/tools? 14:58:44 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:59:50 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-65.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:59:52 francogrex: you cannot produce a standalone dll with clisp, but you can produce a standalone exe. 15:01:33 alexshendi [~androirc@ip-109-84-60-26.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 15:01:48 pjb: ok thanks. I suspected that. 15:01:54 -!- talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:02:20 The main thing that ECLS gives is full, bidirectional C integration. 15:02:39 unkanon_: it's best to focus on learning lisp first and then the other things yes 15:03:03 -!- alexshendi [~androirc@ip-109-84-60-26.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:03:03 in SLIME, is there a way to reset the REPL and clean out any definitions you added? 15:03:11 (without reloading slime) 15:03:18 afterwards you can start shaking trees if you want 15:03:19 alexshendi [~androirc@ip-109-84-60-26.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:35 necroforest: no. 15:04:52 necro: That's because what you're talking about is the current state of the lisp machine. 15:05:00 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-251-67.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:05:05 -!- alexshendi [~androirc@ip-109-84-60-26.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:06:23 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@96.237.122.78] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 15:07:30 the folks at #ccl seem to think it's a bug, they pointed me to an email to the clozure mailing list from someone else with the same problem 15:09:04 Zhivago: C++ as well. 15:09:33 necroforest: if that's what you want why not just restart 15:09:45 unkanon_: One guy (me) I said it *might* be a bug. If I get the chance, I'll try to duplicate it today. 15:10:43 because restarting is annoying, as opposed to doing something like (reset-environment)? 15:10:44 I stand corrected. :) 15:12:13 ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@213.246.119.164] has joined #lisp 15:12:24 necroforest: ,reload-system might do what you want 15:12:28 necroforest: I do ,rest [tab] [ret] 15:12:35 zekus_ [~yaaic@78.188.103.193] has joined #lisp 15:12:42 -!- zekus_ [~yaaic@78.188.103.193] has quit [Client Quit] 15:12:57 pkhuong: After restarting the lisp you have to reload systems, and switch *package* again 15:13:03 restarting takes all of about 2 secs for me 15:13:10 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:13:23 pkhuong, thanks! 15:13:42 zabaq: Does it generate C++ code now? 15:13:51 zabaq: Otherwise it isn't full integration with C++. 15:13:59 I didn't know about restart-inferior-lisp... i was going to the *inferior-lisp* buffer, (quit), then M-x slime 15:14:06 tcr: ah, that depends on one's definition of reset ;) 15:14:22 necroforest: oh yeah that would slow 15:14:26 would be* 15:14:45 ,reload-system makes sure that all files of that system are recompiled and reloaded 15:15:47 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.119.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15:56 sluggo [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:22 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:16:24 -!- ZabaQ1 is now known as ZabaQ 15:17:08 zhivago: it did compile as C++ at one point. 15:17:12 m7w [~max@dynamic-vpdn-mogilev-91-149-185-132.telecom.by] has joined #lisp 15:17:20 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-20-119-246-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:17:35 zhivago: I hope it still does. 15:17:51 pkhuong: you don't have to do [tab], just [ret] 15:18:09 -!- m7w [~max@dynamic-vpdn-mogilev-91-149-185-132.telecom.by] has quit [Client Quit] 15:18:22 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-47-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:19:42 I'm enjoying LiSP very much :) 15:19:46 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 15:20:23 Joreji [~thomas@88-227.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:23:01 -!- vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:23:52 stassats: I don't follow slime development close enough to know what else it might expand to in the future. 15:24:13 pkhuong: that's general in emacs 15:24:21 oh wait 15:24:23 drdo: how are you learning without a #haskell equivalent for lisp? 15:24:39 vokoda [~vokoda@host86-179-139-165.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:39 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@host86-179-139-165.range86-179.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:24:39 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 15:24:47 oh nvm 15:24:47 pkhuong: i misread, if it will expand to several things, it'll work as [tab] 15:25:18 stassats: cool. 15:30:02 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-47-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:50 kanru [~kanru@118-160-173-16.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:00 espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:31:34 who's that guy that used to hang around here that had a website that would stream his emacs buffer? 15:31:48 and he'd help people by referring them to that website and then he'd code live 15:33:20 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:33:40 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:23 the only significant benefit I can remember getting from watching someone code was seeing a Lisper writing the interface first 15:34:43 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-47-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:34:49 which have come to accept as very good idea 15:34:51 vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 15:34:53 I have* 15:34:58 well it was basically a faster way to show people code 15:35:01 faster than a pastie 15:35:10 more practical too I believe 15:35:31 I can't remember his nickname though 15:35:40 Guthur: i find this insignificant 15:35:56 stassats: you're not me though 15:36:29 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:36:59 it was the video of Rainer creating his wee DSL 15:37:13 -!- Joreji [~thomas@88-227.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:37:19 -!- espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:22 i usually figure out better what interface would look like when i'm writing its implementation 15:37:23 ignas_ [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 15:37:26 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:37:31 and even more when trying to use that interface 15:37:35 espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:38:22 paul0 [~paulogeye@187.112.249.73] has joined #lisp 15:39:05 -!- rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:39:11 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Client Quit] 15:40:03 rgrau [~user@62.Red-88-2-20.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:28 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 15:42:42 does it make sense to implement fluent interfaces in a lisp dialect? 15:43:35 for example; (fluentWith `(1 2 3))(doSomething)(doAnotherThing) 15:43:57 sid3k: and what does that mean? 15:43:58 what does this mean? 15:44:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluent_interface 15:44:38 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has joined #lisp 15:44:49 actually it's an oo term 15:45:12 but I think it would be useful technique for functional programming, as well 15:46:11 *stassats* writes it off as another buzzword 15:46:18 consider that I'm working on an XML file and want to select some immutable nodes and manipulate them 15:46:49 sid3k: that's how functional programming works by default. 15:47:38 (fluentWith (select some nodes))(firstManipulation)(secondManipulation)(third ...) 15:48:10 sid3k: you're looking for function composition. 15:48:16 hmm 15:49:10 is there any related example? 15:50:34 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-47-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:50:51 sid3k: do you mean like ruby does someNodes.firstManip.secondManip ? 15:51:20 sid3k: check out http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d30201600d834b0e .. the whole thread may be interesting 15:51:40 unkanon_: exactly 15:51:49 adeht: arright 15:51:55 oh gotcha, method chaining is how rubyists call it I think 15:52:42 in haskell it'd be: thirdManip . secondManip . firstManip $ someNodes 15:52:55 so since lisp is multiparadigm I say go ahead and implement it 15:53:19 or implement function composition if lisp doesn't alread have it (all I know is it doesn't have currying by default) 15:53:40 -!- symbole [~user@rrcs-184-74-223-10.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:00 symbole [~user@rrcs-184-74-223-10.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:27 urandom__ [~user@p548A6E1E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:44 unkanon_: The popluar alexandria library provides CURRY and COMPOSE (along with a billion other things). 15:57:13 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-47-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:57:24 oh that's really nice, it's in the public domain even instead of being GPLed, which is a plus 15:57:48 hasn't been "released" yet though 15:58:02 nothing is ever released 15:58:58 what do you mean? in the lisp world? 15:59:11 is everything "beta" forever like Google's tools? 15:59:29 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 16:00:43 sid3k: or , for 20 LOC. 16:01:25 dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has joined #lisp 16:02:11 unkanon_: yes, it is said finished software is dead software. 16:02:11 -!- vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:02:54 unkanon_: on the other hand, 'unmaintained' software may just run fine and not need maintenance. This cannot be used as a criteria. 16:03:02 pkhuong: why the macroexpand-1? 16:03:21 adeht: no funcall. 16:03:40 I actually like the pun with lambda in function position. 16:04:16 pjb: yes, I read something like that :) 16:04:20 sacho [~sacho@79-100-50-211.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 16:04:23 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 16:04:29 vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 16:04:47 adeht: funcall would also work. 16:04:58 pkhuong: if you macroexpand to generate the result of a macro, you should really use &environment... 16:05:21 pjb: you're right. 16:05:37 in this case it doesn't matter, though. 16:05:42 mitre_ [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 16:06:07 -!- mitre_ is now known as mitre 16:06:14 fucking snow shit.. 16:06:28 homie: don't you have skis or rackets? 16:06:36 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:06:36 adeht: that was an enlightening thread, thanks for that 16:06:50 you know how when you hover the mouse over a pasted code in past.lisp.org, it highlights the parens? 16:06:59 no the car was stuck, i was digging snow away, and got 3 times stuck on the way to free it from where it was stuck... 16:07:06 that'd be awesome if vim could do that, but leave them highlighted at all times 16:07:07 symbole` [~user@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 16:07:09 or emacs, whatever 16:07:18 bah 16:07:21 I like my bike for snow. but we only get 60cm or something. 16:07:30 if someone didn't help me i wouldn't have freed it... 16:07:45 unkanon_: I'm sure you can get vim or emacs to do that. 16:08:30 unkanon_: You actually want such colourful display of code you're working on? :) 16:08:38 froydnj: yes that's why I remembered it ;) 16:09:06 -!- symbole [~user@rrcs-184-74-223-10.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:09:26 schmrkc: you kidding? the more colors the merrier 16:09:50 unkanon_: Ok. Personally I get distracted by it. 16:09:51 I'll write that down as a future project 16:10:07 bhyde [~Adium@c-66-30-201-212.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:18 unkanon_: And for paren depth especially I dunno what benefit it'd bring. Kinda like it for keywords sometimes though :) 16:10:21 I just like how in the pastie it makes things immediate clearer 16:10:30 it's even better than what DrScheme/Racket does 16:10:51 Cools. 16:10:51 do it. 16:11:18 do you guys invert the shift of the number row for programming in lisp? 16:11:33 unkanon_: no, but I find paredit very helpful. 16:11:46 froydnj: I like Erik's take on the matter ;) 16:11:50 *unkanon_* is googling paredit 16:12:32 I see 16:12:50 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:13:15 well I was thinking of inverting the shift because * is also used a lot in variable names (when they're global?) and # and @ also seem to be used for macros (I think) 16:13:22 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-47-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:43 but I've heard people saying that inverting the number row really messes with one's brain 16:16:48 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-127-222.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:13 unkanon_: I just moved () and other things to the home row. 16:18:22 unkanon_: * too 16:18:37 bsod1 [~osa1@88.242.79.230] has joined #lisp 16:18:53 incandenza_ [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:50 Guest77241 [~chatzilla@223.177.45.247] has joined #lisp 16:21:04 sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:28 schmrkc: what keys did you move them to? ; and ' ? 16:22:24 corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has joined #lisp 16:23:49 -!- Guthur [c743cb8c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.140] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:24:29 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.250.175] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:24:44 -!- Guest77241 [~chatzilla@223.177.45.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:24:55 Inverting the home row? 16:25:12 I use dvorak, that would be interesting to try though.. 16:25:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:27:28 no, inverting the number row 16:27:35 so when you type 7, out comes & 16:27:43 and when you type shift-7 out comes 7 16:27:53 vokoda [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has joined #lisp 16:27:54 I'd love to see you guys program using a portuguese keyboard like i do 16:28:24 mozinator [~Administr@195-240-33-225.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 16:28:49 sea4ever: I don't invert the home row. I just put 4 things on each key. 16:28:59 i have two layouts, with different special characters on the number row 16:29:06 drdo: Are they any different than any other keyboard? 16:29:16 extra keys probably 16:29:21 stassats: I have that too. but for the home row. 16:29:21 schmrkc: () are in the number row 16:29:37 drdo: Like swedish then. But I moved 'em. 16:29:39 hewei [~user@58.34.54.56] has joined #lisp 16:29:40 {} are altgr+shift+[89] 16:29:40 and it's just a standard russian keyboard 16:29:55 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-47-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:30:09 drdo: {} are altgr-70 for swedish qwerty. 16:30:09 schmrkc: Where did you move them to? 16:30:28 yeah schmrkc, where did you put your ()*? 16:30:28 drdo: () I have on jk in qwerty layout 16:30:33 -!- vokoda_ [~vokoda@unaffiliated/vokoda] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:30:35 oh nice 16:30:36 shift? 16:30:40 nah 16:30:42 mode switch 16:30:53 Begs the obvious question, how do you write jk? 16:31:12 well I'm on svorak, but I can pretend I don't 16:31:13 -!- xiackok [~xiackok@94.54.81.99] has left #lisp 16:31:24 what? 16:31:28 i don't really want to modify anything, because then i will have troubles typing on standard keyboards 16:31:28 in vim I guess I'll just map C-j and C-k to ( and ) 16:31:29 so on my "j" you find j J ( and { 16:31:41 i already have troubles with capslock being control on mine 16:31:59 I always have capslock as control 16:31:59 everywhere 16:32:01 Couldn't be any other way 16:32:08 drdo: so to type j I just hit the key 16:32:13 the standard control position is really awkward 16:32:14 yeah me too, everywhere 16:32:21 drdo: even when you use somebody's else computer? 16:32:28 *schmrkc* tried the ctrl on the "caps lock". was no good for me :) 16:32:33 stassats: ye, i just do a quick setxkbmap 16:32:35 the real standard control position is really where caps lock is :) 16:32:38 I like the standard control position 16:32:39 ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.193.201.90] has joined #lisp 16:32:40 drdo: on window? 16:32:42 windows 16:32:49 stassats: i never use that 16:33:11 I don't know anyone who honestly programs in windows 16:33:17 so, you have no friends or acquaintances who use something else? 16:33:44 schmrkc: I still dont get it. to type j you hit the key, to type J it's shift+j, and to type ( and { it's what? 16:33:44 pnq [~nick@ACA22F99.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:46 slyrus [~chatzilla@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 16:33:50 I don't know what a mode switch is :) 16:33:52 stassats: Even if i did, when would i need to use their computer? 16:34:06 and use their computer to program, even 16:34:17 unkanon_: "j" = j "j" + shift = J. "j" + mode switch = ( "j" + shift + mode switch = { 16:34:18 Sometimes people at the univ ask me to help them on their project 16:34:22 drdo: when your own is not around? 16:34:31 I just refuse to type if it's emacs with proper control position 16:34:40 schmrkc: is mode switch a nickname for the meta key? 16:34:44 I know i'll just fuck everything up 16:34:51 unkanon_: no. it's the mode switch modifier. meta is meta. 16:34:58 *unkanon_* feels dumb for not knowing what mode switch is 16:35:08 I don't know either 16:35:14 unkanon_: for your xmodmap file you'd just put like 115 = f R P 4 16:35:36 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-47-73.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:35:42 and there you have f R P 4 mapped to 115 with shift and mode switch nd mode switch + shift 16:35:44 Well, isn't it Normal Shift AltGr Shift+AltGr? 16:35:56 I don't even have an alt modifier 16:36:05 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-129-201.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 16:36:28 -!- hewei [~user@58.34.54.56] has left #lisp 16:36:45 but what key on the keyboard is that? 16:36:54 whatever key you map it to 16:36:59 lol 16:37:08 I'll just use Contrl :) 16:37:08 -!- espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:23 espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:37:33 Who thought it would be a good idea to put caps lock in the position anyway? 16:37:45 It's a piece of shit key that is very rarely used by anyone 16:37:59 In a really good and accessible location 16:38:16 *in that 16:38:16 What's good about it? I find it really tricky to hit. 16:38:28 my pinky is always there 16:38:30 you use your left pink 16:38:30 y 16:38:31 gives me avery odd stretchy feel in my hand 16:38:37 I hjave my pinky on the a 16:38:50 right, then just move it a bit to the left 16:38:51 Well that is weird then 16:39:06 unkanon_: that is what gives me the very weird stretchy feel 16:39:08 I hit A with my ring finger 16:39:13 that's strange 16:39:16 it feels natural to me 16:39:26 except my pinky hurts a little from time to time 16:39:32 heh 16:39:40 nothing hurts here 16:39:49 I'd get confused if I didn't have right ctrl in something like the same position 16:40:07 I NEVER hit right control 16:40:10 *schmrkc* just really likes the "standard" position 16:40:12 schmrkc: you think you'd get confused 16:40:12 never ever 16:40:24 stassats: I did.- I tried the caps lock ctrl for 5-6 years. 16:40:33 right ctrl? I never use that either 16:40:39 drdo: I use it every time I control something with my left hand. 16:40:40 schmrkc: Where is your left index finger? 16:40:52 drdo: just like I do with shift and meta 16:40:56 F 16:41:00 always 16:41:02 "f" yeah 16:41:07 yep same here 16:41:11 schmrkc: I only have one meta 16:41:15 the left Alt 16:41:22 sounds painful 16:41:23 drdo: uh how can you have your left index on F and your ring finger on A ? 16:41:26 the right Alt is the modifer ISO_level3 etc 16:41:42 unkanon_: Why not? 16:41:51 because it goes like this: A S D F 16:41:53 that's four keys 16:41:56 = four fingers 16:42:08 pinky on A, ring on S, middle on D, index on F 16:42:08 it's kinda easy for me. if I do something with the left hand I hit the modifiers with the right, and vice versa 16:42:16 maybe drdo got six fingers 16:42:17 no matter if it is super, meta, shift or ctrl 16:42:24 unkanon_: My middle finger goes for both S and D 16:42:49 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:49 wow that's really weird now :D 16:42:50 I never quite understood that whole touch typing thing people talk about 16:43:40 for me its like A O E U 16:44:04 and H T N S in the right hand 16:44:07 :) 16:44:16 stassats: I just noticed this keyboard doesn't even have a right ctrl 16:44:27 drdo: neither does mine 16:44:31 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 16:44:43 heck sometimes I find myself hitting "9" with my left hand while doing r-shift with the right hand 16:44:43 I never use right ctrl or shift 16:44:46 Hello lispers... Why should "(= (+ 0.1 0.2) 0.3)" be "T"? 16:44:52 solely to avoid nasty stretching 16:45:06 espadrine: I suggest #math 16:45:07 espadrine: ? 16:45:10 espadrine: why it shouldn't? 16:45:12 heloehlo_ [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:25 It's using floating point numbers internally, right? 16:45:35 and externally 16:45:57 Isn't that implementation dependant anyway? 16:46:00 (how they are represented) 16:46:00 Then the result of (+ 0.1 0.2) should be *slighty* bigger than 0.3... 16:46:16 what? 16:46:24 it should? 16:46:34 yes because 0.1 can't be represented in binary 16:46:40 With the C float type, it does 16:46:51 finitely, that is 16:47:00 espadrine: How does what C does matter? 16:47:00 but 0.3 also can't be 16:47:02 What have you guys been smoking? 16:47:04 so... 16:47:23 it's true, floating point arithmetic is a bitch 16:47:25 Trying to understand how it is implemented internally 16:47:34 probably as fixed point? 16:47:42 is you're getting true out of that 16:47:46 espadrine: Ok. So ask that instead of asking "why it should be so". 16:48:20 tmh [633c8794@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 16:48:20 Isn't it standardized to be floating-points? 16:48:22 espadrine: did you try (= (+ 0.11111 0.22222) 0.33333)? 16:48:31 Greetings lispers! 16:48:43 -!- heloehlo [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:48:56 unkanon_: That's also true 16:48:58 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 16:48:58 unkanon_: still true, afaikt 16:49:16 espadrine: floating point does not mean it is the same way C does floating point. 16:49:16 -!- espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:49:18 that's really crazy. 16:49:22 espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:49:29 Crazy is that NOT being true 16:49:33 schmrkc: but it does mean it can't have 0.1 as finite 16:49:36 espadrine: it depends on the rounding modes etc. 16:49:52 or was it 0.2? I can't remember 16:49:54 espadrine: e.g., on sbcl (> (+ 0.1d0 0.2d0) 0.3d0) is true 16:50:41 yeah it's 0.1: For example, 0.1 in decimal  to 20 bits  is 0.00011001100110011001 in binary; 0.00011001100110011001 in binary is 0.09999942779541015625 in decimal. 16:50:42 adeht: ah, indeed 16:51:05 This is where I must shamelessly plug my floating point library. -> https://github.com/OdonataResearchLLC/floating-point 16:51:11 :) 16:51:23 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-50-211.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:51:36 -!- DarthShrine [~angus@pdpc/supporter/student/DarthShrine] has quit [Quit: DarthShrine] 16:53:40 in clisp (= (+ 0.1L0 0.2L0) 0.3L0) 16:53:47 returns T 16:54:21 In LispWorks 6.0.1, (= (+ 0.1 0.2) 0.3) => T 16:54:30 I wouldn't have expected that. 16:54:39 *schmrkc* waits for someone to look this all up in the standard. 16:54:54 while (= (+ 0.1d0 0.2d0) 0.3d0) => NIL 16:55:07 valium97582: Same on LispWorks. 16:55:31 tmh: lucky numbers. 16:55:56 I found this on stack overflow: LISP [sic] languages have [exact decimal representation] built in. 16:56:21 unkanon: no, but CL has rationals.. 1/10, 2/10, 3/10 16:56:39 oic 16:56:43 For a limited time only, if you use my floating point library, (fp:float-equal (+ 0.1D0 0.2D0) 0.3D0) => T. Order now! 16:56:56 so (= (+ 1/10 2/10) 3/10) is guaranteed to be true 16:57:34 tmh: what are the semantics? 16:58:26 stassats: I don't get your question. 16:58:42 tmh: what are the semantics of float-equal function? 16:58:54 there's some default error range 16:59:21 I like the ol' ulps-based comparison 17:00:01 Yeah, (float-equal data1 data2 &optional epsilon) . If epsilon is nil, it defaults to 2*float-epsilon 17:00:12 The appropriate float-epsilon based on the data. 17:00:12 -!- espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:00:18 http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm <- famous page 17:00:29 espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:01:27 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.5.71] has joined #lisp 17:02:04 For sequences, there is (norm-equal data1 data2 &optional epsilon measure) that compares the relative error of the norms according to measure. The available norms are all element wise norms. 17:03:09 Finally, if you find yourself trying to duplicate examples in books and are really limited on significant figures, the is (sigfig-equal data1 data2 &optional significant-figures) 17:05:41 The library is probably pretty slow for large sequences, but before I dig into optimization, I need to get a set of unit tests written. 17:06:16 -!- zickzackv [~zickzackv@g225062162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:06:24 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:06:29 Or we could just ditch all this madness and only do precise calculations? :) 17:06:50 I don't care if physicists and what not want to compute their stuff fast 17:06:52 drdo: Bah, I need speed over precision. 17:06:57 drdo: that's hardly possible 17:07:03 *tmh* glares at drdo 17:07:22 :-) 17:07:24 espadrine: e.g., for (= (+ 0.1 0.2) 0.3) on sbcl if you set the rounding mode to :nearest you'll get T and if you set it to :zero you'll get NIL 17:08:03 is there a way to enable history for the clisp repl? 17:08:08 adeht: thanks! 17:08:14 I want to press arrow-up and have it behave like the terminal 17:08:24 It does 17:08:29 C-p C-n 17:08:30 drdo: precision can have an exponential cost in runtime or space. 17:08:42 I'm not using any editor 17:08:54 I'm just using clisp on the terminal 17:08:54 drdo: floating point _calculations_ are precise 17:09:01 unkanon_: Yes, that works 17:09:25 drdo: not for me, this is what I get when I type up and down: ^[[A^[[B 17:09:36 unkanon_: C-p C-n, i just told you 17:10:35 unkanon_: is your Clisp compiled without readline? 17:10:52 and do you mean clisp by clisp? 17:11:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.5.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:11:07 drdo: I just get ^P ^N 17:11:14 stassats: I downloaded the binary from the clisp website 17:11:23 I'm using ubuntu now 17:11:39 oops sorry not clisp 17:11:41 ccl 17:11:50 maybe I should get clisp then 17:11:59 no, you should get Slime 17:11:59 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0AABF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:12:05 unkanon_: Are you adverse to Emacs+Slime? 17:12:06 unkanon_: Maybe you should just use SLIME 17:12:08 I thought ccl on ubuntu would be as nice as the one for the mac 17:12:16 tmh: I use vim so... 17:12:34 tmh: but nevertheless, emacs+slime doesn't specify which compiler 17:12:34 unkanon_: ccl on mac does exactly the same 17:12:40 and that's most important for me 17:12:49 drdo: yes, unfortunately 17:12:49 unkanon_: Ahmm, you can use whatever you want 17:12:50 is using vim and emacs mutually exclusive? 17:13:06 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0ABD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:12 stassats: you're quite a character :) no they aren't, sir. 17:13:35 unkanon_: Turn your back on the dark ways of vim and join the light 17:13:37 drdo: ok, whatever I want, so I'll get clisp for my ubuntu because then I have a history when on the command line? 17:13:41 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.183.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:13:51 tmh: the thing is, like I did in haskell, I like to play with the repl before coding 17:13:55 unkanon_: I mean, use SLIME and it doesn't matter what implementation you use 17:14:02 tmh: and I usually use the repl on the terminal and not in an editor 17:14:08 it does matter, actually 17:14:31 it's best to use SBCL or CCL with Slime 17:14:33 stassats: How does slime's repl change from implementation to implementation? 17:14:35 unkanon_: The Slime REPL is pretty nice layer on top of which ever implementation you use. 17:14:47 -!- incandenza_ [~incandenz@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 17:14:52 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:14:54 drdo: considerably 17:15:04 I've used ccl, sbcl and clisp 17:15:10 Didn't find any difference 17:15:13 tmh: I'd rather stick with vim for now and focus only on learning lisp like people advised me to 17:15:18 I have a real problem when I use vi, now. My brain has become hard-wired for emacs. Many moons ago, I exclusively used vi. 17:15:33 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.180.119] has joined #lisp 17:15:34 It feels so nice using emacs 17:15:37 unkanon_: Just a minute. 17:15:53 drdo: I like vim because it feels sturdier 17:15:59 unkanon: I think that's bad advice.. you should first set up emacs/slime.. then when you have a nice slime repl you will find Lisp much more convenient to learn 17:16:01 unkanon_: What is that supposed to mean? 17:16:05 emacs feels like it's going to break anytime soon 17:16:05 unkanon_: you have slimv 17:16:12 it feels wobbly and brittle 17:16:12 i like Emacs because marshmallows 17:16:12 unkanon_: ??? 17:16:28 I like emacs because it lets me talk on irc 17:16:30 unkanon_: I'm a very big fan of vim. I use it for all editing cept lisping. SLIME is quite very nicer than slimv, and I love the M-. most of all :) 17:16:33 unkanon_: vim -> http://www.cliki.net/vim 17:16:47 what does M-. do? 17:16:47 unkanon_: which, perhaps, one could work with ctags. but still.. paredit I'd miss too 17:16:54 valium97582: Try it! 17:17:05 defun M-. 17:17:14 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:17:14 unkanon_: and learning lisp includes learning a proper environment for lisp 17:17:40 stassats: but it doesn't include learning how to compile to a proper size executable? 17:17:54 what? 17:17:58 what is "proper size" 17:18:04 unkanon_: no, this is irrelevant 17:18:16 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:18:28 It would be nice if there was an open source lisp IDE implemented in Common Lisp. Emacs lisp is just enough of a mental shift that requires too much thought. 17:18:28 stassats: it's relevant to me because the whole point for me to learn lisp is to not have to use C 17:18:28 learn lisp first, then care for application delivery 17:18:29 I'm lost, what is he talking about? 17:18:47 adeht: So it fits on the 5.25" floppy 17:18:59 stassats: it's really important that my executables have a proper size because if that turns out to be impossible then I'll just stick with C+Lua 17:19:03 schmrkc: it gives me "TRUENAME: File #P"/home/daniel/init" does not exist" 17:19:11 carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.30] has joined #lisp 17:19:21 valium97582: Maybe you have shit setup odd. 17:19:22 well... 17:19:31 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:37 tmh: there's climacs or hemlock ;) 17:19:43 unkanon_: Then you better get real acquainted with ECL -> http://ecls.sourceforge.net/ 17:19:48 unkanon_: you're so confused in misconceptions, so i don't know how to unconfuse you 17:19:58 valium97582: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Finding-definitions.html#Finding-definitions 17:20:01 schmrkc: double density or single density? :) 17:20:06 stassats: thanks, I've found ad hominems help me a lot more than real advice. 17:20:23 tmh: looking now 17:20:24 valium97582: normally it'd jump you too the definition in some source, or give you a list of various definitions to choose from. 17:20:29 and you should learn what ad hominem rally is 17:20:46 adeht: I've given hemlock the old college try and it is too far from what I need and I don't have time to fill the gap. 17:20:49 unkanon_: What is a proper size? 17:21:09 unkanon_: and lisp is not a good choice for a whole number of things. 17:21:13 schmrkc: for a currency converter, 25kb instead of 100MB 17:21:39 unkanon_: That will happen in any language 17:21:49 stassats: that's another ad hominem right there. I know what it is, thank you. 17:22:18 unkanon_: Did you include the size of libc? 17:22:27 unkanon_: and it looks like you don't want to part with your misconceptions 17:22:29 You either include the runtime along in the binary, or you don't 17:22:39 schmrkc: okay make it 2MB, that's still reasonable. 17:22:46 Soulman [~knute@166.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:47 schmrkc: but 100MB is wrong for sure :) 17:23:11 unkanon_: How is it wrong? 17:23:15 unkanon_: Now what you are doing is, of course, includeing a whole live lisp image there. 17:23:26 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:23:32 stassats: I'm open to anything but I won't stand here while you keep saying inane things 17:23:39 unkanon: is currency-converter.fasl really 100mb? 17:23:40 unkanon_: The equivalent would be including GCC in your binary 17:23:40 snearch [~snearch@f053007157.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:44 unkanon_: 100MB is wrong, the actual size should be around 25-40 MB 17:23:45 and libc 17:23:46 and etc 17:23:49 unkanon_: It's a bit of a strange comparision. But if you are looking to write a "console app" that you run to convert some currency then lisp seems and odd choice anyway. 17:23:51 oconnore [~eric@c-24-61-119-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:52 20-40 17:24:17 drdo: are you asking how is it that a simple currency converter program being 100 MB is wrong? 17:24:22 unkanon_: yes 17:24:27 It's probably not even 100MB 17:24:32 But even if it was 17:24:42 You are including everything 17:24:51 The whole lisp implementation has to be there 17:24:52 drdo: because I need a lisp that compiles to assembly 17:24:58 unkanon_: SBCL does 17:25:11 unkanon_: you can pay for lispworks, it has better application delivery facilities 17:25:29 unkanon: in any case, sizes differ between implementations.. there's not much to argue about it, that is the way things are and they will stay that way unless someone cares enough to change that 17:25:40 stassats: it's a bit too much for me at $1500 17:26:18 unkanon_: what is it that you really want to do? 17:26:21 drdo: so with SBCL how big do you think a program that does nothing but multiply two numbers and show the result should be? 17:26:30 unkanon_: Is this currency converter a pet project or do you really have clients that you are delivering it to? 17:26:30 write applications, sell them, what? 17:26:34 drdo: how big as in, what size should the executable be 17:26:34 unkanon_: sbcl compiles to assembly 17:26:35 unkanon_: It's pretty small 17:27:01 unkanon_: you can switch to lisp implementations that already use the system's libraries 17:27:11 unkanon_: Do you freaking understand that the whole implementation needs to be in that binary? 17:27:11 hi to all. I'm just started to learn lisp and i've got a question. I play with 'translation' of basic identifiers to Ukrainian like (defmacro  (&body x) `(defmacro ,@x)) and now I want to make macro for automatic translation like (translate if ) 17:27:27 dmytrish: oh my 17:27:29 woah 17:27:29 unkanon_: Lisp can eval and compile and whatnot at runtime 17:27:52 unkanon_: This size thing really seems like a non-issue for any normal app 2010. 17:28:31 dmytrish: if I understand you correctly you want something like defabbrev? On Lisp has that macro 17:28:32 dmytrish: and it should be  17:28:38 (defmacro translate (eng ukr) `(defmacro ,ukr (&body x) ``(,eng ,,@x))) 17:28:50 )) 17:29:00 what is wrong here? 17:29:02 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 17:30:33 drdo: can lisp still eval and compile and whatnot after a program is compiled to assembly and it's less than 10MB? 17:30:48 uh 17:30:57 unkanon_: sbcl compiles to assembly like all the time. 17:31:29 What's this obsession with 10MB? 17:31:38 dmytrish: quoting 17:31:43 as I take it, after first evaluation of (translate if ) there will be smth like (defmacro  (&body x) `(if ,@x)) which is correct as far as I now 17:31:59 dmytrish: (defmacro translate (eng ukr) `(defmacro ,ukr (&body x) `(,',eng ,@x))) 17:32:13 omg) 17:32:30 i suspected that, but misplaced quoting 17:32:58 double backquotes are as crazy as ukrainian identifiers 17:33:03 haha 17:33:05 oh yes 17:33:12 though, nothing beats chinese identifiers 17:33:13 that the point why i do it 17:33:18 how bout (defmacro translate (eng ukr) `(defmacro ,ukr (&body x) (cons ',eng x))) 17:34:13 adeht: that's too easy 17:34:44 longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:38 thanks 17:35:48 ther's a lot of fun 17:36:23 chinese lisp will be even more funny 17:36:40 sounds like a plan 17:36:43 d3z [~user@a64.davidb.org] has joined #lisp 17:37:17 I can understand the motivation to express lisp code in the local language, but I can't understand the motivation to translate it. 17:37:26 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:40:29 tmh: I can't understand either 17:40:50 It pisses me off when people do that, even in my native language 17:41:04 tmh: i agree 17:41:22 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:23 drdo: maybe they just don't know the language which pleases you 17:41:29 -!- npoektop [~npoektop@85.202.112.90] has quit [Quit: npoektop] 17:41:56 stassats: It just doesn't fit with the rest of the language 17:42:05 It looks awkward, doesn't really add any value 17:42:14 -!- alexsuraci [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:42 drdo: so, you're saying, that if you don't know english, you shouldn't be allowed to write programs? 17:42:53 stassats: I think that's a good rule 17:42:59 stassats: No, i'm saying that you shouldn't use Common Lisp 17:44:07 because it can piss somebody off? i don't find that to be a good reason 17:44:21 stassats: Sounds like a good reason to actively do it. 17:44:21 Look, people that speak English invented programming and the internet, or at least Al Gore, ergo, you should program in English. QED 17:44:59 well, i guess APL is for those who don't know english 17:45:04 stassats: Because it's inconsistent with the rest of the language 17:45:19 longshot_ [~longshot@180.184.10.244] has joined #lisp 17:45:22 drdo: and who cares? 17:45:30 The people who have to read it 17:45:31 vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 17:45:44 can't they not read it? 17:46:01 Not if they don't know that language 17:46:11 And even if they do, it's just awkward 17:46:21 tmh: actually the first person who invented programming was french 17:46:26 If you don't know english, you will find it hard to program in CL anyway 17:46:33 It has hundreds of symbols with english names 17:46:38 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:40 francogrex: I thought she was british. 17:46:53 he, it was before ada 17:47:06 It doesn't matter, programming really isn't related to natural language 17:47:22 drdo: so why should one stick to english then?? 17:47:26 or J 17:47:28 -!- longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:47:29 -!- longshot_ is now known as longshot 17:47:30 Because in common lisp, they did 17:47:32 J looks fun 17:47:46 Dammit francogrex! I wasn't even trying to be serious. I was just trying to play a the arrogant American. ;-) 17:47:47 drdo: pretty sure nothing in the standard mandates this thing you say. 17:48:00 schmrkc: Nothing stops people from writing bad code 17:48:09 That's not the same as saying you should 17:48:14 *sellout* codes in Esperanto. 17:48:19 before Ada Lovelace was Blaise Pascal 17:48:32 francogrex: Blaise Pascal invented programming? 17:48:36 schmrkc: And actually, i think the standard does recommend 17:48:41 That messages are in english 17:49:08 *valium97582* codes in lojban 17:49:10 lol 17:49:15 drdo: great. that doesn't say anything about code though? 17:49:30 Well, now I see an argument for translation of code. I don't think that the standard specifies how the code is represented. So, if you wanted common lisp in your language, there would just need to be a reader that did the proper translations. 17:49:34 schmrkc: nothing, i could name all my variables with single letters 17:49:45 and throw in random punctuation for good measure 17:50:13 adeht: the pascaline is arguably the first kernel :) 17:50:14 drdo: if that makes sense in some context by all means do it. 17:50:14 yeah, lambda, car, rplacd, are very english 17:50:36 stassats: they actually are, except for lambda 17:50:40 http://www.thocp.net/hardware/pascaline.htm 17:51:00 drdo: I can think of a number of situations where writing code and comments in swedish, for example, seems a good choice. 17:51:10 schmrkc: For example? 17:51:32 drdo: 8 year olds learning to program. 17:52:31 schmrkc: didn't you know that 8 year olds produce horrible code which make expert programmers puke, they clearly shouldn't be allowed to touch a keyboard 17:52:34 Comments might be appropriate in that case 17:52:46 Not so sure about identifier names 17:53:14 stassats: The very thought of an 8 year old going near a computer makes me nauseous. 17:53:17 stassats: That was not my point at all, i'm talking about real grown up people supposed to be experts doing this 17:53:26 stassats: :) 17:53:58 drdo: What is the purpose of writing code in english if it is only every going to be used by some french company and their developers? 17:54:02 Go to your random university and you'll find plenty of this 17:54:06 francogrex: this is cool, but I'm not sure it can be considered "programming".. 17:54:18 schmrkc: It doesn't fit with the rest of the language 17:54:27 that's why people are afraid of programming, because they're horrified by all these dogmas 17:54:41 drdo: neither does english 17:54:45 we wrote the domain stuff in our apps in hungarian, the same language as we communicate with the domain experts. it's blurry where one draws the line between english and non-english though... but it works out, and it's certainly much better than translating domain concepts to english and back 17:55:08 schmrkc: It doesn't? I bet a quick look at the index of standard symbols would disagree 17:55:23 -!- necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:55:35 stassats: People are afraid of programming? I thought it was the reverse 17:56:03 drdo: Ok please write a nice english sentence using the word CDR. 17:56:06 No one seems to be afraid, everything is easy and trivial 17:56:19 schmrkc: CDR is an acronym. 17:56:35 ok this then 17:56:44 schmrkc: That's just plain bad trolling 17:56:58 which little to do with what CDR actually means 17:57:05 please explain to me how () fits in english language. or the syntax of CL is anything like the syntax of english. 17:57:21 schmrkc: That is even worse trolling 17:58:16 I rest my case, all the identifiers in the CL standard were chosen at random my monkeys bashing their head on the keyboard 17:58:18 drdo: I find your idea being ridiculous. That's all. I see no reason for not naming symbols whatever floats your boat. 17:58:26 There is no connection at all between their names and english words 17:58:36 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-158-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:36 attila_lendvai: yes, I guess this is one good exception to the english rule 17:58:47 CDR is "Contents of Decrement Register", how on earth would i know what it's supposed to mean? 17:58:52 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.194] has joined #lisp 17:58:55 adeht: I know, in fact it is indeed ada lovelace; I was just being french :) 17:59:24 *francogrex* is chanting la marseillaise 17:59:34 stassats: That is one out of hundreds, if you deny the fact that the names are extremelly heavily influenced by the english language, i don't know what to say 17:59:37 Joreji [~thomas@75-186.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:59:52 francogrex: I was reading about Fourier and Cuvier just yesterday ;) 18:00:02 drdo: but they're not consistent 18:00:05 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:00:11 drdo: So how does this connection make any difference for what you connect new things to? 18:00:49 pnq1 [~nick@172.131.183.145] has joined #lisp 18:00:49 schmrkc: You will end up using translated words to refer to the same thing 18:01:52 drdo: huh? 18:02:08 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA22F99.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:02:13 -!- pnq1 is now known as pnq 18:02:44 I can't be bothered to pursue this discussion further, if you think it's a good idea to name your identifiers like that, by all means do so 18:02:51 schmrkc: this is usually true with say, code by students.. they may use their native language's word for "table" to name a variable instead of just "table" 18:03:33 rename #lisp to #trolling 18:03:35 univs here also teach terms like "class", "compiler", etc. in the native language.. which is ridiculous 18:03:45 adeht: exactly 18:04:19 And most of the time those words aren't even common and people have never seen them before even though it's their native language 18:04:21 adeht: Never seen that happen here. 18:04:36 adeht: I write code in swedish all of the time. I don't see the problem. 18:05:07 -!- sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 18:05:09 swedish "IT talk" is mostly english words though. 18:05:37 like joe average say pixel instead of bildpunkt 18:06:10 schmrkc: How would you call alexandria:if-let ? 18:06:22 adeht: nice. Now reading this also: http://www.fourmilab.ch/babbage/sketch.html 18:06:31 This is the sort of shit i'm talking about 18:06:46 schmrkc: it happens often that code needs to be read by programmers who aren't familiar with the native language.. it may not happen now, but in future - certainly.. I'm not just about projects like clisp or cxml and friends, but internal code as well 18:06:57 drdo: I'd probably call it if-let because it is intended for a wide variety of people. 18:07:15 schmrkc: So you write in both english and swedish? at the same time? 18:07:15 -!- espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:07:20 adeht: Sure, but then the code should be adapted for that. 18:07:21 sounds good 18:07:26 espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:07:34 schmrkc: Why not just write it in english in the first place? 18:07:46 drdo: I don't see if-let as english. it's just a symbol named arbitrary characters. 18:07:47 -!- sluggo [~chris@net-216-37-86-189.in-addr.worldspice.net] has quit [Quit: h-n-y] 18:08:01 drdo: To make life easier for me, obviously! 18:08:02 I mean seriously, are you some hardcore nationalist? 18:08:09 schmrkc: attila's remark however made sense.. if the domain has "national" flavor, then there's no point in inventing new English terminology or some controted translation 18:08:15 *contorted 18:08:20 schmrkc: That doesn't make like easier 18:08:24 drdo: like just now (defun slå-tärning ...) vs. (defun roll-dice ...) . It is a very easy choice for me. 18:08:25 It makes life harder 18:08:42 schmrkc: That's pretty horrible 18:08:51 espadrine_ [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:09:04 adeht: Makes super sense that too. 18:09:13 drdo: Please explain how this makes life harder for me. 18:09:30 schmrkc: It does for me at least, even if it's my native language 18:09:37 It doesn't fit with the rest of the code 18:10:24 I don't like reading code that is written in a variety of languages 18:10:39 drdo: It fits right in there. It's just symbols named arbitrary character strings. 18:10:40 schmrkc: Also, please explain how that makes your life easier 18:10:42 adeht: our customer was reading the code sometimes, and was planning to write the little functional pieces that model the law 18:11:00 drdo: slå-tärning I don't need to translate to understand. roll-dice me needs to think. 18:11:13 There you don't know english 18:11:15 *Then 18:11:26 That's another completely different issue 18:11:29 you wouldn't even use "defun" (if it is define function) so take the first two letters of swedish "define" and the two letters of swedish "function" and combine! what does it give ? 18:11:47 -!- espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:11:47 -!- espadrine_ is now known as espadrine 18:11:50 francogrex: Why would I do that when there is a perfectly fine symbol already? 18:11:51 -!- rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: rfg] 18:12:12 yeah, just curious whzat would it sound like 18:12:21 drdo: what's your mother tongue? 18:12:26 attila_lendvai: portuguese 18:12:39 My english teacher didn't even speak portuguese, he was native from ireland 18:12:42 attila: that sounds extreme, but even if the client didn't do that I'd still say it's a good exception to the english rule 18:12:48 francogrex: It'd be "defun". 18:12:48 So there is no way i could even learn by translating 18:13:08 I just learned like normal children do 18:13:19 yes :) 18:13:20 drdo: You're quite right with my english knowledge though. I have what I would grade as "below basic" grasp of english. 18:13:38 i see: definiera funktionen 18:13:47 schmrkc: ok then, hand over your programming license! 18:13:50 francogrex: I don't see these symbols as some english anyway. It's just characters. 18:13:52 schmrkc: Ok, so that makes sense why it's easier for you 18:13:57 stassats: I don't even have one ;) 18:14:25 drdo: swedish is my native language. Not sure why anything would ever be easier. 18:14:29 schmrkc: programming without a license? that's a serious offense! 18:14:34 drdo: I write my shopping lists in swedish too! 18:14:53 drdo: also note that it highly depends on the nature of the application. we were modelling the hungarian laws that define the financing of the local government. doing that in english would have been just plain silly... 18:14:55 schmrkc: English is easier for me most of the time 18:15:03 -!- mheld [~mheld@pool-173-76-224-45.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mheld] 18:15:23 well, all I think depends on the scope of the written program 18:15:23 I started learning it when i was around 5 years old just by interacting with a native 18:15:39 stassats: :D 18:15:39 So it's as first-class as portuguese is 18:15:39 if it's meant to be shared, archived etc ... 18:15:43 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:15:59 drdo: I'm a forther. I like naming things s" " ! i think that everything always depends, and there should be no dogmas 18:16:22 stassats: I fully agree. 18:17:24 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082B008.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:31 drdo: Here's a thing though. When I speak, irl, with the two ladies I live with, or with random buddies too I guess., it is very common for me to mix swedish and english insentences at random. grammar or just words. sometimes it's even a mix of 4-5 languages in just one sentence. 18:18:52 drdo: I don't see why I'd do anything different when creating code. 18:19:27 even english isn't entirely english 18:20:01 there are many words from latin, french, german 18:20:15 stassats: They are part of english 18:20:21 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B3263E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:20:45 Anyway, there's not much point in this discussion, you can always argue something 18:20:45 rfg [~rfg@188-222-83-162.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:20:49 but they look and are pronounced differently 18:20:57 I bet people were bitching about every one of those words. 18:21:01 It's not like i can irrefutably prove that it's better 18:21:06 some farts do it in every region 18:21:12 damn kids these days making up new words! 18:21:17 can't talk proper either! 18:21:23 even "weltanschauung" is an english word ;) 18:21:39 schadenfreude! 18:21:50 schmrkc: I was just saying that writing code like that makes it harder for other people to understand 18:21:53 That's all 18:21:59 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-65.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:22:07 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B023F2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:19 drdo: If that was my main concern then I do it different. 18:22:20 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:22:28 depends on who those other people are 18:22:32 well 18:22:41 for my code it really doesn't depend ;) 18:23:25 heloehlo [~bfouts@24.30.125.111] has joined #lisp 18:23:26 -!- homie` is now known as homie 18:23:28 schmrkc: That's what programming is all about, describing some process, if you didn't really care how it was for humans to write and read, you could just program in machine code 18:23:51 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B022A02.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:24:26 brodo [~brodo@p5B02313A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:36 drdo: uh. I'm pretty sure programming isn't all about me producing code for others to read. 18:24:55 if yes, it it normal that make check takes forever? 18:25:01 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:10 i thought it's programming is producing code for others to laugh 18:25:25 or cry 18:25:29 drdo: now if I was actually writing code that I wanted to, for example, get help with from #lisp I'd sure not write it in a mix of standard symbols + symbols named in swedish and armenian. 18:25:54 -!- heloehlo_ [~bfouts@66.83.65.206.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:25:58 brodo: excusez-moi? 18:26:01 I remember some years ago someone was telling me that lisp was horrible beccause of these macros it had. Made it so hard for people to understand the code. 18:26:07 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 18:26:07 seems a bit the same here. 18:26:09 -!- brodo_ [~brodo@p5B023F2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:27:32 aintme [~user@2.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:27:43 brodo_ [~brodo@p5B023337.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:10 stassats: i'm installing clisp on mac os with homebrew. the "make check" part takes more then an houre. 18:28:32 -!- strlen_ is now known as strlen 18:28:35 and make uses 0% cpu 18:28:54 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:30:01 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:53 -!- brodo [~brodo@p5B02313A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:30:53 -!- brodo_ is now known as brodo 18:31:14 sounds broken. 18:32:11 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:32:26 brodo: but is clisp using CPU? 18:32:55 -!- dmytrish [~dmytrish@193.239.152.189] has left #lisp 18:33:08 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:22 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-160-173-16.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:33:27 stassats: clisp isen't running. the makescript for building it is running 18:33:53 can you strace it? 18:33:59 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.10.244] has quit [Quit: longshot] 18:34:42 longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:16 -!- Gmind [~Welcome@113.190.192.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:18 mozinator1 [~Administr@195-240-33-225.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 18:35:42 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.180.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:35:55 stassats: i haven't got strace. i thing i'll just keep it running for a while 18:36:10 i doubt it will ever finish 18:36:28 i'll try dtrace 18:37:19 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.41.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:37:40 tcr [~tcr@77-20-119-246-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:38:19 -!- mozinator [~Administr@195-240-33-225.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:38:25 -!- pnq [~nick@172.131.183.145] has quit [Quit: book] 18:38:41 alexsuraci [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:52 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.158.204] has joined #lisp 18:39:54 brodo: macport install clisp 2.49 without a glitch. 18:40:43 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.67.221] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:54 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:07 pjb: yes, but switching from homebrew to macports is not trivial 18:42:00 brodo: does homebrew install in /opt/local ? 18:42:11 pjb: no 18:42:21 Then installing macport will be trivial. 18:42:24 You can have both. 18:42:52 pjb: yes you can, but homebrew says "don't do it" 18:43:23 ok. So far I'm quite happy with macports. 18:43:44 That said, I still compile my own copies of clisp et al. 18:44:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-152-65.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:46:18 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:49:32 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:52:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-67.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:53:54 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:09 -!- tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:12 tali713 [~user@c-71-195-45-159.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:45 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:06:12 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:06:16 -!- paul0 [~paulogeye@187.112.249.73] has quit [Quit: paul0] 19:06:56 m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-212-31.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:53 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-84-227-38-201.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 19:15:25 -!- peth [~anon@unaffiliated/peth] has quit [] 19:15:32 necroforest [~jarred@pool-96-249-147-66.hrbgpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:52 Is there a way to "comment out" an s-expression that spans multiple lines? 19:15:57 without putting ; on all the lines 19:16:14 mark and M-; 19:16:41 you can also use #| |# 19:17:07 Sneaky 19:17:09 or perhaps #+meh 19:17:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-20-119-246-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:17:28 how does M-; work? 19:17:40 (googling it doesn't come up with much due to special characters) 19:18:03 It notifies emacs support staff that have access to your computer and emacs window. They're really fast at typing. 19:18:18 yeah. anyways. 19:18:40 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 19:19:28 -!- Lymia [~moe@unaffiliated/cirno-chan] has quit [Quit: ==(>^w^)> ==(> >.<)>] 19:22:48 tcr [~tcr@77-20-119-246-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:23:02 So, sure, I'm presuming you have emacs open. C-k 19:23:13 Woops, wrong winder. 19:23:18 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 19:24:02 Carrying on, C-h i to get info, open the emacs documentation and look for M-; in the key index. No google involved. 19:24:20 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 19:25:20 has anyone see the 'adventures in advanced symbolic programming' series of lectures, and can comment on it? 19:25:46 by sussman and hanson 19:31:16 xan_ [~xan@220.241.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:38 -!- m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-212-31.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: m7d] 19:34:53 tmh: try C-h k M-; 19:36:20 adeht: "Couldn't find documentation for paredit-comment-dwim" Crappy emacs. 19:36:44 emacs is a nice OS, but the editor sucks 19:37:27 adeht: It works in the LispWorks editor, though. Go figure. The overlap between the LispWorks editor is just enough to be confusing. 19:37:46 overlap between LispWorks editor and emacs, that is. 19:38:02 My fingers can't seem to keep up with my brain. 19:38:58 tmh: maybe paredit-comment-dwim doesn't have a docstring? I don't use paredit 19:39:46 adeht: Ah, yeah. I really like paredit. I need to port it to LispWorks. 19:41:12 espadrine_ [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-116-238.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:42:15 Phoodus: ba-dum-ching! 19:42:31 UncleVasya [~UncleVasy@193.239.129.239] has joined #lisp 19:43:34 -!- espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-99-205.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:43:34 -!- espadrine_ is now known as espadrine 19:45:58 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-94-88.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:46:17 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-21-126.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:48:33 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 19:48:46 -!- UncleVasya [~UncleVasy@193.239.129.239] has left #lisp 19:52:27 francogrex [~user@109.130.67.221] has joined #lisp 19:56:11 -!- longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:56:36 longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:35 Phoodus: they should make vim usable within emacs. then it would be a great OS with a great editor ;) 20:02:47 valium97582: M-x ansi-term vim 20:03:07 insomniaSalt: w00t! 20:03:44 :P 20:03:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-54.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:03:54 now you've made me happy :) 20:04:10 not really as good as viper-mode tho :) 20:04:28 well, you can't have everything 20:05:25 psilord [~psilord@ppp-70-226-164-134.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:37 JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:47 sacho [~sacho@79-100-50-211.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 20:05:53 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:06:21 JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:06:59 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:07:18 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known as Guest76775 20:39:56 sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.217] has joined #lisp 20:40:08 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:54 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:41:55 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-251-67.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:42:03 -!- sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.217] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:43:48 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-154-144.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:44:54 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@180.193.201.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:46:32 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-193-106.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 20:49:59 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:55:19 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:25 Anybody knows if there's an equivalent of function-lambda-expression in bash (for bash functions)? 20:55:28 -!- rpg 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seconds] 22:36:17 -!- phao [~phao@189.107.158.186] has left #lisp 22:37:17 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.119.164] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:37:20 -!- sea4ever [~sea@205.244.150.231] has quit [Changing host] 22:37:20 sea4ever [~sea@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 22:39:04 -!- juniorroy [~juniorroy@212.36.224.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:39:49 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:41:54 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has joined #lisp 22:44:10 -!- bakkdoor is now known as bakkdoor|afk 22:46:05 -!- netfrog [~netfrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:48:34 mheld [~mheld@74.61.205.248] has joined #lisp 22:49:12 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 22:50:04 ziga` [~user@BSN-61-52-74.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:24 -!- sacho [~sacho@79-100-50-211.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:50:45 prxq: oi 22:51:09 what's oi ? 22:51:18 where does it come from ? 22:51:19 it's hi in portuguese 22:51:23 ah 22:51:25 ok 22:51:30 i was wondering 22:52:24 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:52:26 portuguese is way too weird when it's not your first language or you don't speak spanish 22:53:48 it also vaguely looks like a handwaving human 22:54:04 the variant "o/" is not considered nice 22:54:58 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:49 ioi 22:57:53 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has joined #lisp 22:57:56 pmurias [~pawel@static-78-8-208-43.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #lisp 22:58:05 what's a good book on common lisp? 22:58:09 pcl 22:58:13 practical common lisp 22:58:53 pmurias: it also depends on your level and your interests 22:59:11 land of lisp, if you like comics :) 22:59:16 *valium97582* loves comics 22:59:55 -!- espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-116-238.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:00:27 espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-116-238.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:00:39 PAIP is also really good, but it requires some kind of predisposition 23:01:19 pmurias: a perlist that wants to become a lisper! 23:01:21 something which doesn't go through building example programs 23:01:36 -!- jleija [~jleija@c-98-199-38-40.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:01:57 espadrine: i want to write a common lisp backend for niecza 23:01:57 pmurias: i know few programming books, if any, that don't do that 23:02:36 maybe i should just read the reference manual ;) 23:02:43 sacho [~sacho@79-100-51-54.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 23:02:51 pmurias: even there you will find lots of examples 23:03:02 pmurias: the reference is very good, but not meant to be an introduction 23:03:29 i don't mind examples what i don't like is a "here we build an application" approach 23:03:40 pmurias: if you skip all the chapters in PCL that start with "Practical" you might get what you want. 23:04:52 hey gigamonkey 23:04:58 yo slyrus 23:05:06 pmurias: what exactly is a niecza backend? 23:05:31 i googled niecza alright, but I don't know what is back to what front end 23:05:50 prxq: niecza is a Perl 6 compiler 23:05:50 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@p4FF0BF06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:06:02 prxq: it currently targets .NET 23:06:22 prxq: i want it to emit common lisp 23:06:22 pmurias: so it takes pearl 6, kills some elves, and then produces .NET bytecode? 23:06:28 pmurias: uh oh 23:06:48 well, ok, I see. 23:07:01 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 23:07:02 yes, i want it take pearl 6, kill some kittens and produce common lisp 23:08:03 Okay, I have a cold so I'm stupid. I have 11G file with ~150M lines, and I want to make sure there are no dups. And substantially less than 11G of RAM. What should I do. 23:08:06 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.21.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:08:14 Bonus, the lines could be parsed as (very large) integers. 23:08:23 I'm thinking maybe a Bloom filter. 23:08:52 gigamonkey: how long are the lines? 23:09:12 Move the computation to the Cloud(tm)? 23:09:25 prxq: 81 characters not counting #\Newline. 23:09:34 And all the characters are digits 1-9 23:09:39 you can filter first by making a one-byte checksum, and keep only those that have equal one. 23:09:46 no zeroes? 23:09:51 valium97582: indeed. 23:09:53 Is there any neural net library for lisp? Actually, are they even called 'libraries' in lisp? 23:09:54 old-style split/merge? 23:10:00 valium97582: he has a cold :) 23:10:23 valium97582, prxq: they're solutions to a Sudoku puzzle. 23:10:44 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:11:31 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host164-191-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:11:33 gigamonkey: if you sort the file it should be considerably easier to filter duplicate lines ;) 23:11:34 sea4ever: they are called libraries. 23:11:48 pmurias: you could take the bytecode scheme interpreter in PAIP and start from there. Of course, learning CL properly will probably improve the compiler. 23:11:49 adeht: thanks. :-P 23:12:11 pmurias: out of curiosity, why do you want to emit Common Lisp? 23:12:14 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@84.93.186.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:12:26 I'm with the hash-code. Make it a 16-bit one, should be pretty good. 23:12:35 gigamonkey: well, sorting huge files with little memory was a classical problem back in the day 23:12:50 gigamonkey: why 16 bit? 150 M files is tiny. 23:12:53 bubble sort! 23:13:01 *150 M lines. 23:13:40 espadrine_ [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-116-238.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:13:41 -!- espadrine [~anonymous@AMontsouris-157-1-116-238.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:13:41 -!- espadrine_ is now known as espadrine 23:13:45 pkhuong: but not so tiny I just slurp it into memory. 23:14:12 gigamonkey: sure, but if you only store hash values, that's not too many. 23:15:04 With a total memory budget of 2 GB, you can use ~13 byte/line for the hashes. 23:15:17 -!- tcr [~tcr@77-20-119-246-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:38 Oejet [~oejet@212.45.122.120] has joined #lisp 23:16:19 <_3b> if they are avlid solutions, you should be able to drop a bunch of the values anyway :) 23:16:22 <_3b> *valid 23:16:24 and considering that each line, when read, only occupies 257 bits... 23:16:53 er, 23:17:11 around 270 bits 23:20:03 plus, no need for a sort phase. They're hash values, use them to index in a hash table. 23:20:17 cmbntr [~cmbntr@80-218-229-102.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 23:20:41 pkhuong: yeah that was my plan. Is there anything obviously stupid about this hash function http://paste.lisp.org/display/118162 23:21:08 *_3b* wonders how many bits a sudoku solution actually requires 23:22:11 gigamonkey: personally, I'd expect the problem to be the second pass. 23:22:36 additionally, it is not clear to me you win anything above just taking the lowest n bits of the number 23:22:39 gigamonkey: yeah, xor is a commutative operation. I'd use some third party hash function, either something like md5 or murmur hash. 23:22:45 3b: yeah, even BCD coded could be a substantial reduction I guess 23:22:45 <_3b> seems like an upper bound of 150 or so bits, don't remember enough math to figure out more precisely :( 23:23:25 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 23:23:46 -!- astoon [~astoon@92.243.187.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:23:49 gigamonkey: for stuff like sudoku boards, zobrist hashing is really simple and quick. 23:24:49 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 23:29:42 <_3b> maybe 129 or so bits 23:30:57 prxq: not sure the lowest n bits is so great for these since these solutions are as likely to differ in the high-order positions as the lower order. 23:31:39 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@c-98-234-185-107.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:32:30 gigamonkey: how often do you get these files? 23:32:38 I just have the one to process. 23:33:18 and when's the deadline? 23:33:23 Whenever. 23:33:26 gigamonkey: if you have to run lookups as well, it might be cute to implement a radix trie as a directory structure ;) 23:33:27 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:35:02 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-50-141.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 23:35:32 *_3b* suspects you could get it to ~13bytes/line without hashing 23:36:28 Well, 11 million solutions tested without a colision with a 128 bit hash. 23:36:41 _3b: unless you have ECC all the way from the HDD (and RAID!) to RAM, the odds of machine failure quickly become much more important than a collision. 23:36:41 It'll probably finish by dinner time. 23:37:33 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, not saying hash is bad, just wondering about how many bits are actually required to store it all 23:38:45 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:38:52 timack [~tim@hlfx60-2a-231.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:41:39 _3b: I have 126 bits here, 123 if you assume that the top-left square is a 1. 23:41:41 -!- alexsuraci [~alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:42:13 <_3b> pkhuong: i get 104 for an arbitrary board, but no idea if i 23:42:13 gigamonkey: i'd really like to know how long it would take to just read them as bignums into a list and then do REMOVE-DUPLICATES. 23:42:15 <_3b> i 23:42:22 <_3b> if i'm thinking about it correctly 23:42:41 my back-of-the-envelope calcs say that the list would fit into less than a gigabyte of ram. 23:42:42 *_3b* can't even seem to hit ' correctly, so that is pretty queastionable :p 23:43:52 DELETE-DUPLICATES would be better I think... 23:43:55 prxq: depends on the remove-duplicate, but I'd expect it to perform around 150M ^2 comparisons on most implementations (: 23:43:57 <_3b> prxq: woudn't it be 5gb + overhead? 23:44:25 _3b: oh, maybe. I'm going with upper bounds that I think I can code up 23:45:10 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, not sure how i would convert to/from the 104 bit representation :) 23:45:11 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.8.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:45:27 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:45:42 _3b: uh, right. Around 5gb 23:45:44 prxq: (format t "~:d" (ceiling (* 268 148 (expt 10 6)) 8)) => about 5G where 268 is the INTEGER-LENGTH of the first solution. 23:45:51 <_3b> actually, i guess it might not be too hard 23:46:26 read it into a database, let them do the magic :-) 23:48:49 <_3b> keep track of the available values for each row/column/block, and for each value, find the index of the value in the most constrained of row/column/block, then multiply the total by that? 23:49:16 So I'm trying to come up with names that make sense for arguments like :start and :end except they'd accept negative arguments if you want to specify the position from the end. I thought of :startee and :endee as in "from Either End". Anyone can think of a better name?... Also I wonder if it's actually a feature worth adding... 23:49:45 <_3b> i suppose probably some deterministic selection rather than just 'most constrained' since there would be ties sometimes, to make it reversible 23:50:20 longshot [~longshot@174.36.149.237-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 23:50:21 _3b: more like, use the number as a customer name, each one having ordered one screw, then dump the list of customers :-) 23:51:07 Hexstream: for things like subseq? 23:51:22 Like those :start and :end keyword args we see everywhere. 23:51:27 -!- ziga` [~user@BSN-61-52-74.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:52:07 -!- corruptmemory [~jim@96.246.167.18] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:52:15 Hexstream: what would (subseq v :staree 0 :endee 0) mean? 23:52:20 In POSITION, FIND, MEMBER, REMOVE-DUPLICATES, etc. 23:52:29 would it return v or 23:52:31 a damn 23:52:35 sorry 23:53:12 gigamonkey: common lisp is supposed to be fast, and i have to write a project in lisp for a university course 23:55:34 prxq: Well, subseq doesn't use keyword args... But for instance, :startee -4 :endee -2 would mean the 2 elements before the before-to-last element... or something. Now I realize this is actually not as intuitive as I thought :/ Maybe it's a question of being used to it... 23:56:45 <_3b> Hexstream: seems reasonable to me, though works better if it is already a convention in the language/std libs 23:57:21 <_3b> (the behavior, not the names that is) 23:57:25 Hexstream: but :startee 0 :endee 0 - does it mean the whole vector? 23:58:00 prxq: No, that would be a bit like saying :start 0 :end 0 23:58:37 but then :startee 0 :endee -1 ... ? 23:58:43 :startee -1 would mean only the last element. 23:58:53 pmurias: are you going to write the compiler *in* Common Lisp or *to* Common Lisp? Or both? 23:59:22 prxq: That would be the whole thing but of course just not specifying neither :end nor :endee has the same effect...