00:00:00 antifuchs: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117223#4 00:00:19 oops, that result var isn't needed 00:00:39 btw, I suspect (or maybe hope) that no one remembers me, but I've missed this place in my absence. 00:00:53 there you go. I prefer the version that keeps the input sequence type, though. just a personal thing, I guess 00:01:50 could easily add a parameter to specify result type 00:02:04 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-169.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:02:32 antifuchs: Well but it doesn't :-) Your collect-duplicates will not preserve the element-type 00:02:45 tcr: yeah, that sucks. 00:02:52 I've been bitten by that 00:02:56 -!- MrRageR is now known as MrRager_ 00:03:18 CL lacks a make-sequence-like as in SBCL's sb-sequence or sequence-iterators 00:03:25 exactly. 00:03:50 oh, it looks like SBCL is using (defmacro name), possibly for the expansion function? That makes sense, and is clever. 00:03:58 CL isn't very sequence friendly 00:04:16 LOOP syntax for hash tables isn't very nice 00:04:57 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 00:04:58 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:05:15 boo, the sequence extensions haven't made it to CDR yet 00:05:15 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:05:55 what value does CDR have anyway? 00:06:17 What's a nice way to generalize that to an arbitrary iteration and not just sequences? 00:06:27 being a documentation repository that isn't in a wiki? 00:07:08 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050068015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07:35 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050068015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:07:37 antifuchs: why not return an alist ? 00:08:34 fe[nl]ix: that's what mine does 00:08:38 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:09:16 antifuchs: i mean that CDRs aren't implemented universally 00:09:24 fe[nl]ix: I wanted to preserve conceptual compatibility with remove-duplicates 00:09:37 stassats: nothing ever is 00:10:06 CL is 00:10:42 for certain values of "universal" (: 00:11:35 is paste.lisp.org down? 00:11:44 no, it's just strange 00:12:44 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:08 drdo` [~user@77.54.208.2] has joined #lisp 00:13:12 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46] has joined #lisp 00:13:49 it's universal among implementations conforming to the CL standard 00:14:24 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:14:30 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 00:15:07 I don't even know if that's true... isn't GCL a conformig implementation? 00:15:08 :) 00:15:17 *conforming 00:15:25 no 00:17:40 Conforming is for pussies, be a rebel! :) 00:18:00 In all seriousness, I think the value is that we can all say "this is an implementation of CDR 1" and agree about what that means, even if we later realize some things in CDR 1 are a problem and we should have implemented CDR 16 instead. 00:18:33 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-174-209.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:18:34 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@grok.psych.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:19:35 you can call it whatever three-letter acronym you want, but if it's not implemented by all modern implementations it has no value to me 00:21:12 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 00:21:46 and it doesn't seem to have any value for the implementers, otherwise the all would be anxious to implement them 00:23:02 That could be true. But even if you can't call function-a in your code without implementing it because it isn't implemented everywhere, at least when you need function-a you have a place to look and see "what issues did other people who needed something like function-a face and address?" 00:23:39 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-203.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:24:04 let's say "feature-a" 00:24:38 fair enough 00:25:44 also, while the complaint that feature-a hasn't been universally implemented is valid, it's important to note that feature-a has to be defined before it can be implemented universally 00:26:01 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-203.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 00:26:34 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has joined #lisp 00:26:51 i don't say that CDR is a bad idea, just that nobody seems to take it seriously 00:27:53 even among open-source implemntations 00:27:54 well, you say that not everybody takes it seriously ;) 00:28:03 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:29:31 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 00:29:37 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:31:52 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:34:55 StrmSrfr: it's not that somebody doesn't takes it seriously, it's that it's a lot of work, either to write a CDR, or to implement it. 00:35:26 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:35:59 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:38 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-203.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:37:53 -!- [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:38:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:38:45 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:40:56 Hum. I made TONS of work on a branch with git and now I want to "merge" that into the main branch (which has seen no activity since I started), but the commits are a stupid meaningless morass, I want to lose all that history and just have one super big commit in the main branch. Anyone know how to do that?... 00:40:56 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:07 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:41:43 well, I'm out 00:41:55 -!- _death is now known as adeht 00:42:17 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:44:13 Hexstream: IIRC, there's a way to do it. Better ask on #git. 00:44:29 Yeah. 00:45:36 -!- StrmSrfr [~storm@adsl-32-170-63.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:49:01 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:49 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633166.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:49 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.76] has joined #lisp 00:54:30 yay, our very own mega won the google AI challenge! 00:55:12 Congratulations! 00:55:46 Gabor put a lot of work into this, judging by his planet lisp posts (: 00:55:54 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:55:54 MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:03 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:56:50 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:56:52 -!- Makoryu [~bloodgog@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:56:53 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:20 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:57:20 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:35 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279774800.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:57:43 "Whereas the Google AI Challenge has traditionally been dominated by entries written in compiled languages like C++", can't help not facepalming at this 00:57:52 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:57:55 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:58:04 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:58:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:58:42 drdo: after all, it doesn't matter if it's interpreted or compiled. Let's them believe the lisp interpreter is faster than the C compiler... 00:58:47 give them a break, they're google. 00:58:56 can't expect them to know /everything/. 00:59:56 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:00:11 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 01:00:46 One would expect people to realize that compilation is an implementation detail, not a language feature 01:01:15 I don't expect actual engineers to have written this (: 01:01:26 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 01:04:30 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:07 -!- egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:07:36 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:13:58 WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! At last! Loopless reached 1.0 :))) http://www.loopless.org/ 01:14:27 Don't get fooled by the blandness of that page, the project overall is very polished now. It's comprehensively documented and stuff. 01:15:30 Documenting projects comprehensively really is a fool's errant. Which is why I'm up to the task. I shall prevail! 01:16:05 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:18:58 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:19:26 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:19:39 -!- drdo [~user@77.54.208.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:32 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:20:52 Is it possible to set a memory limit on SBCL? 01:20:55 Just managed to trash my machine :S 01:21:40 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:23:29 yes. use the --dynamic-space-size argument. 01:27:16 thanks 01:27:55 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:28:19 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Quit: felipe] 01:29:28 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29:35 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:31:01 Hexstream, thanks! I'm checking out loopless now. Looks useful. 01:31:53 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 01:32:00 drl: Thank you very much! I needed to hear that. 01:32:46 gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 01:32:56 foom: do you know if there is a sbclrc option for that or is the sbclrc read in after the dynamic space is allocated? 01:34:42 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:36:13 -!- ejohnson is now known as ejohnson_brb 01:37:15 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 01:37:46 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-54-182.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:38:19 -!- gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 01:38:52 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 01:41:28 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:43:58 the only way to have it set without passing it on the command-line argument is to save a new lisp exe with (save-lisp-and-die "program" :executable t :save-runtime-options t) 01:44:15 (see the docs for that function, you may or may not actually want to do that in your instance) 01:44:47 -!- MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:15 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:36 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:46:01 foom: Yup, I'd seen that option as well, but thanks for pointing it out. I'll stick with a simple shell alias for now ;) 01:46:08 -!- ejohnson_brb is now known as ejohnson 01:46:25 Demosthenes [~demo@204.52.135.237] has joined #lisp 01:47:46 drdr [4b662dea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.102.45.234] has joined #lisp 01:48:04 hi 01:48:09 it's probably feasible to allow the limit to be reduced but not increased, in a running lisp image, but that's not currently possible. 01:48:42 whats a good lisp enviroment/compiler to use if your wanting to get started with lisp (thats not 200+mb) 01:49:07 drdr: SBCL is a popular choice. 01:49:18 Lisp In A Box 01:49:24 Along with Emacs and Slime as the "IDE". 01:49:51 can you use something outher than emacs as a IDE? 01:49:52 (I don't know how many MBs that is. 01:49:54 sbcl and quicklisp should get you started 01:50:04 well, you don't need to use an IDE at all. 01:50:16 drdr: you can use a magnet i guess 01:50:24 and a steady hand! 01:50:26 or a butterfly! 01:50:34 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:50:55 i just use gedit or nano 01:51:13 so, keep doing that then. 01:51:23 drdr: there are other ide's, some are provided by commercial lisps like lispworks or acl, which have trial versions. 01:51:24 ok then 01:51:30 Using lisp without an IDE seems like a great way to totally miss out on the interactivity features. 01:51:37 drdr: Why put yourself through that? 01:51:43 People consider me crazy, because I use emacs, but not slime. :) 01:51:57 What do you use foom? 01:52:00 emacs 01:52:02 -!- ATH500 [~ATH500@70.35.170.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:52:07 (to replace SLIME) 01:52:12 well 01:52:13 Nothing 01:52:16 I don't use an IDE 01:52:16 IDE arent nice to me 01:52:22 on account of visoin issues 01:52:27 what? 01:52:39 mitre__ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:40 Well, depends if you consider Emacs an "IDE". 01:52:43 vision isssues 01:52:56 i concider emacs a nightmear 01:53:05 why? 01:53:20 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:53:24 doesn't emacs have an accessibility package? 01:53:30 drdr: I would think you could adjust the fonts to be at least as readable as this irc channel. Is that not so? 01:53:49 drdr: what does gedit have that emacs doesn't? 01:54:55 drdo its that emacs has some strange way of handeling key sequences 01:55:14 drdr: for example? 01:55:20 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu219.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:55:21 You mean all the CTRL and ALT stuff? 01:55:28 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:55:29 *ejohnson* backs away slowly 01:55:36 -!- mitre__ is now known as mitre 01:56:05 I'm not sure if you need large fonts, or speech output or braile, but I think emacs supports all of that. I don't know whether its support sucks, never having used it, though... 01:56:11 ya 01:56:24 drdr: What's the alternative? 01:56:36 i just use nano and gedit 01:56:42 its a informatoin processsing thing 01:56:53 drdr: How do gedit or nano handle that better? 01:57:18 my brain just crashed. Someone prefers nano to... anything. 01:57:19 anyways, I think you'd find using an editor that at least hilights matching (parens) for you much nicer than gedit. 01:57:22 I've used gedit and nano, and they are pretty horrible 01:57:33 It's a nightmare editing anything there 01:57:37 and emacs autoindentation is really helpful 01:57:44 but you *can* write lisp code in gedit if you want 01:57:56 i can and i shall 01:58:16 drdr: I don't understand why you would put yourself through that, but whatever 01:58:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl4E5C003D.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:58:19 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:49 ok so when im installing SBCl i shoud just follow the instalation file? 01:58:54 there are no weird tricks? 01:59:13 [df] [~df@163.8.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 01:59:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:59:16 drdr: have you found any weird tricks? 02:00:08 for outher softwares 02:00:18 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 02:00:29 Then the answer is no, there are no weird tricks to sbcl. 02:00:39 allright then 02:00:45 well i should probally get to sleep now 02:00:48 gnight 02:00:51 -!- drdr [4b662dea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.102.45.234] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 02:01:13 g'night 02:03:59 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:05:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:05:59 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:06:55 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:06:56 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 02:06:58 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C7DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:12:03 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:30 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:15:40 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:15:58 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.174.48] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:16:21 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 02:17:24 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-215-192.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:53 congrats to mega 02:19:48 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:19:49 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-61-250.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:20:17 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:20:45 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 02:20:50 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 02:22:55 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:07 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 02:25:08 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:27:47 -!- MrRager_ is now known as sdsds 02:27:50 em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:31:40 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.197.141] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 02:31:57 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-212-181.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:23 jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has joined #lisp 02:33:05 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-215-192.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:33:13 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:34:09 annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:09 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:35:39 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-6-150.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:54 -!- bgs100 is now known as robot100 02:36:01 -!- robot100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 02:36:02 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 02:37:04 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-212-181.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:37:06 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:37:48 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:38:11 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 02:39:06 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Client Quit] 02:42:04 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 02:42:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:43:22 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:43:32 ATH500 [~ATH500@70.35.170.61] has joined #lisp 02:44:49 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:45:00 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:46:05 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 02:47:45 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:14 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:54 eppa [~mch@124-168-80-249.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:49:21 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:06 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:51:28 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@204.52.135.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:51:41 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 02:52:34 adeht: did he win? 02:52:52 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:42 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Walking the dog.] 02:53:57 I see Hexstream is going for maximal flamebait on this loopless site. :) 02:54:25 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:54:31 Fade: see http://ai-contest.com/ , and it even includes the nonsense term "compiled languages" 02:54:38 How do I share *standard-output* between two threads? 02:54:56 oconnore: a broadcast-stream might help 02:55:31 although I guess you could get strangely interleaved output that way. 02:55:58 yeah, i guess that would work. 02:56:00 oconnore: just pass the same stream object to both threads 02:56:45 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 02:56:53 inside the thread function you can bind *standard-output* to that object 03:00:40 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 03:01:46 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:02:27 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:35 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:02:44 adeht: both threads are referencing the same stream right now 03:04:43 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:00 oconnore: the symbol's value cell is also shared 03:05:57 ok 03:06:18 why does that cause a problem? 03:06:19 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:06:38 huh? what problem? 03:07:10 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:17 ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 03:08:33 maybe I misunderstood. My original problem is that I get "requires access to Shared Terminal Input" from clozure when I try to run two threads in parallel. 03:08:40 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:08:45 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:08:46 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 03:09:02 And you said that "the symbol's value cell is shared". So I assumed you meant that that was my problem. 03:09:56 oconnore: That means that a thread other than the listener blew up  you need to break the current thread, then do ":y " to switch to the broken thread so you can debug it. 03:12:41 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:13:09 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:13:26 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:13:41 aha! Thanks sellout. I didn't even think to look at the backtrace... 03:13:46 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 03:15:19 is there a yui library for weblocks? i've seen hints of it on the net but can't find the complete deal 03:15:29 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:16:58 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:17:35 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:17:48 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:22:24 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-otqvupcctzxndpya] has joined #lisp 03:23:55 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 03:24:21 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:24:24 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:30 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 03:25:05 yates: I saw yui stuff in contrib folder 03:25:09 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:26:49 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:27:53 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Client Quit] 03:29:18 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-86-16-214-73.glw-bng-11.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rfg] 03:31:47 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 03:32:49 moxiemk1_ [~moxiemk1@CMU-416743.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:32:57 -!- moxiemk1_ [~moxiemk1@CMU-416743.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:36:53 -!- moxiemk1 [~moxiemk1@ETSY.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:37:18 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:38:25 yay, lisp wins google ai 03:40:27 esmith [~esmith@c-24-62-125-40.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:18 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:43:03 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 03:43:18 -!- esmith [~esmith@c-24-62-125-40.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:44:39 aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:45:31 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:47:19 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:48:05 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:34 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:48:41 ramkrsna_ [~ramkrsna@122.169.81.234] has joined #lisp 03:48:56 -!- mek||malloc [~mek@wifi-roaming-128-4-225-80.nss.udel.edu] has left #lisp 03:50:23 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:51:08 -!- cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:51:57 makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has joined #lisp 03:54:45 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:54:58 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:58:05 mitre: ok i'll look 03:58:08 -!- CrazyEddy [~mesoparap@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:58:10 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:59:50 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:00:41 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:01:48 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:03:24 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432703.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:04:09 -!- ramkrsna_ [~ramkrsna@122.169.81.234] has quit [Quit: Quit] 04:04:30 |3b|`: Are those your opengl tutorials out there on the net? 04:05:32 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:35 <|3b|`> seangrove: possibly, if you mean stuff on 3bb.cc 04:05:49 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.79.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:05:54 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:06:11 Yes, very cool 04:06:19 lemoinem [~swoog@44-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:40 I was looking to get back into opengl in CL after I wrote a small engine in scheme 04:07:31 bookmarked ;) 04:07:39 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:07:40 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432703.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:10:31 CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:12:07 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432703.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:12:27 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:18:24 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:40 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:22:28 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:24:25 -!- pnq [~nick@ACA4944A.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:26:18 Good morning everyone! 04:27:28 dulouz [~dulouz@2002:d8fe:77db:0:211:2fff:fec3:eeea] has joined #lisp 04:27:43 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-70.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 04:38:42 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:38:42 MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:19 beach: Hardly morning! 04:40:46 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:44:32 If I may ask a hunchentoot question... I would like to create a 404 page essentially. For a first attempt I thought I would set *default-handler* to my function that renders the 404 page. That didn't work. What would work? maybe i misunderstand what *default-handler* does 04:46:03 oh, i think i just saw *http-error-handler* in the docs. maybe that is what i want 04:46:28 LuckyGeb [~LuckyGeb@122.96.14.138] has joined #lisp 04:46:42 -!- LuckyGeb [~LuckyGeb@122.96.14.138] has left #lisp 04:47:40 necroforest [~jarred@pool-108-18-226-169.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:47 LuckyGeb [~LuckyGeb@122.96.14.138] has joined #lisp 04:48:12 -!- LuckyGeb [~LuckyGeb@122.96.14.138] has left #lisp 04:48:21 indeed. thanks for letting me talk this one out ;) 04:50:25 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:55 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:53:10 morning beach 04:54:13 -!- az [~az@p4FE4FA4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:59:31 -!- makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:01:11 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:01:13 Hey splittist! How is your new grown-up life with tests and all coming? 05:01:28 az [~az@p5796C512.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:31 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 05:04:20 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@b01-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:04:53 -!- ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:06:10 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 05:07:52 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:17:43 I'm having an issue with SBCL - I wrote a program that reads in a very large text file (~350k lines) line-by -line (using read-line) and adds each line to a data structure. About 1/3 the way through the file, SBCL stops - no error message or exception, it just stops responding, CPU usage goes to 0% and i have to kill -9 it. Any ideas? 05:18:00 It works fine on a shorter test file 05:18:20 hi folks. i've written a sort of project progress statement which also serves as a new homepage for my newly renamed lisp game creation system visual programming project thing. http://dto.github.com/notebook/iomacs.html 05:18:42 what do people think of the videos 05:19:45 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:20:05 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:35 phenylene [~paulgod@c-66-235-2-121.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:46 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:22:54 beach: still in the well-meaning phase (: 05:23:00 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.66.205.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:24:03 cmm [~cmm@109.66.205.250] has joined #lisp 05:24:22 <|3b|`> necroforest: 350k lines doesn't sound that big, unless the lines are very long... how much ram is sbcl using when it locks up? and if you are running in slime, does it say anything in the *inferior-lisp* buffer? 05:26:58 necro: What does ps report the status of the process as? 05:27:33 -!- phenylene [~paulgod@c-66-235-2-121.sea.wa.customer.broadstripe.net] has left #lisp 05:27:59 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-56.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:29 So, does Gabor Melis hang out here? He's a Genuine Lisp Hero! 05:29:07 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:29:53 <|3b|`> gigamonkey: yes, as mega1 lately 05:30:03 *|3b|`* doesn't remember if the 1 is always there or not 05:31:57 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.157.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:33:39 Jabberwock [~Jens@f050064196.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:33:41 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.190.91] has joined #lisp 05:34:05 -!- Jabberwock is now known as Guest71090 05:37:17 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050068015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:37:56 -!- |3b|` is now known as |3b| 05:37:59 MoALTz [~no@92.20.24.127] has joined #lisp 05:42:19 -!- dulouz [~dulouz@2002:d8fe:77db:0:211:2fff:fec3:eeea] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:42:34 -!- annihilator [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:42:58 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:44:11 nipra_ [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 05:47:34 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:50:14 ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 05:53:59 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 05:55:19 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:59:10 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 05:59:48 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-6-150.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:00:36 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 06:01:25 -!- MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:02:41 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Client Quit] 06:02:48 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:15 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 06:04:08 ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 06:10:16 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:12:32 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-188-134.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:57 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:16:16 ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 06:17:41 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has joined #lisp 06:24:15 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:24:32 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 06:25:13 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:25:40 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:29:35 churib [~churib@dslc-082-082-126-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:28 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:33:36 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 06:34:10 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:38:10 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:39:10 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 06:40:28 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:41:14 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255513.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:42:42 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 06:49:38 mega1: herep 06:49:40 ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 06:50:00 gigamonkey: for minutes before taking off to kindergarten 06:50:25 Congrats on your AI Challenge win! 06:50:44 (You are Gábor Melis, right?) 06:50:50 thank you, I've just pushed the post mortem to my blog 06:50:59 (yes) 06:51:06 that is cool, AI Winter is finally over! 06:51:14 Ah, I was just going to ask if you wanted to write something about it for Code Quarterly. 06:51:20 unfortunately there was no AI in it :-) 06:51:21 Maybe an extended post mortem. 06:51:56 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-25-99.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:52:03 It's quite long but I'm happy to dwell on this win longer. 06:55:07 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:55:07 Well, let me know if you want to dwell on it in the pages of Code Quarterly and with some editorial assistance from yours truly. 06:57:23 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02:20 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.190.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:03:30 In the end, I suspect that AI is applied statistics. 07:04:09 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.50.232] has joined #lisp 07:08:44 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:12:53 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:14:46 daniel__1 [~daniel@p5082AFB7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:17 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:16:18 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:16:18 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:16:21 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082A81E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:17:54 ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 07:18:06 mega1, nice post, thanks :) 07:19:25 -!- jdz [~jdz@host32-106-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:22:56 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 07:22:58 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:23:04 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:23:15 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-162-251.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:23:47 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:25:17 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:28:53 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:29:09 ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 07:29:43 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 07:31:20 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:32:43 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:34:07 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:36:31 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 07:36:53 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:42:56 ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 07:44:08 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:44:24 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:44:31 -!- daniel__1 is now known as daniel 07:45:03 loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has joined #lisp 07:45:20 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mamobinkdsagorrh] has joined #lisp 07:45:27 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 07:48:25 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:49:11 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:10 ravic [~ravi@118-93-176-141.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:51:53 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53:28 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:55:22 wvdschel [~wim@vpnp021.ugent.be] has joined #lisp 07:55:22 -!- wvdschel [~wim@vpnp021.ugent.be] has quit [Changing host] 07:55:22 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 07:56:45 -!- Guest71090 [~Jens@f050064196.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:56:48 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-25-99.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:00:13 ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 08:02:12 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:03:02 mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 08:03:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@89-75-35-251.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 08:03:02 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:04:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2IjEcVYGGQ lisp games retrospective, part 1 08:06:00 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-148-89-23.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:43 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:07:28 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.96] has joined #lisp 08:09:13 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:10:01 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-37-13.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:27 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:10:35 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-43-84.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:10:40 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:10:41 so, what's the new #lisp population number? 08:10:51 and congrats to mega1! 08:17:25 mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:08 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:18:10 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-148-89-23.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:18:44 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:18:48 schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:18:48 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 08:18:48 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 08:19:20 jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-36-127.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:38 -!- nipra_ [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:20:52 ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 08:21:23 jdz: Did you expect it to increase as a result of mega1's victory? 08:21:58 "Lisp, almost as good as C++ for AI." :) 08:23:09 beach: well, sure some people will come here due to that 08:23:38 beach: just to tell us how the hell can we program with all the parenthesis all over the place 08:24:19 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:26:26 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:26:41 if there's one lesson from the ai-contest, it's that the programming language does not matter. it's about people and their ability to implement their ideas. 08:26:46 -!- ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:30:46 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 08:32:47 ddv [~ddevaal@bogomips.nl] has joined #lisp 08:35:22 -!- ajmorgan [~ajmorgan@96.18.164.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:35:37 -!- nasloc__ [tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:36:03 timchen1` [tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 08:36:05 Frontier [~Marco_Lei@dslb-088-071-185-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:37 -!- Frontier [~Marco_Lei@dslb-088-071-185-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 08:37:45 nice title on hacker news 08:37:55 jdz: So is that what you are planning to tell the new people coming here: "don't bother with Lisp, the language you know is just as good. It's about you and your ideas."? 08:37:57 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:38:14 beach: not really. 08:38:29 Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:33 beach: i'll leave the education part to you, you're really good at it. 08:38:44 Thanks! 08:38:45 beach: is sincerely think so 08:39:04 It's very nice of you to say so. 08:39:28 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-171-18.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:23 beach: zdnet is sending fresh meat to us 08:40:31 (the link from hacker news) 08:40:59 quote: «After seeing Gábors performance, many participants commented that they would be taking a new look at the 50 year old language» 08:41:30 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-36-127.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:41:51 aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:41:57 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 08:42:05 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-188-134.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:42:09 Nice! 08:42:47 beach: i think he's quoting your essay: «Syntax is what puts people off. When confronted by something new, we look for a reason to discard it.» 08:43:08 nipra_ [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 08:43:12 well, it's not particularly your essay, but the concept 08:43:23 performance orientation and stuff 08:43:36 hmm, maybe. I wasn't aware. 08:43:39 (of it) 08:43:40 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-164-95-68.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:43:53 of the concept? 08:44:19 mega1: Again: Congratulations! You did a fantastic job! 08:44:20 of beach having written this. 08:44:26 or something similar. 08:44:48 The thought took root ages ago and I can't remember where it came from. 08:44:48 mega1: jdz is referring to my old essay about the psychology of learning. 08:44:58 yes, I got it 08:45:26 sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.97] has joined #lisp 08:45:51 mega1: if you said it without reading beach's essay, it must be true! :) 08:46:09 chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 08:46:46 http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/hungarian-lisp-developer-walks-away-with-google-ai-contest/2131 08:47:00 the last quote ... is just incredibly arrogant 08:47:26 and I tried so hard not to let my arrogance come through :-) 08:47:45 "Does your bot learn? No, I do" 08:48:41 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:49:03 does not sound arrogant to me 08:49:05 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-101.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:45 in the context of machine learning vs. human learning 08:50:19 Wouldn't it be more arrogant to claim to have created a learning bot? 08:50:40 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl4E5C0047.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 08:50:52 I think you'd have to misunderstand "arrogant" in order to say that. 08:51:10 Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has joined #lisp 08:51:17 But if you want that, then start with a meaningful definition of "learning". 08:52:33 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:52:50 aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has joined #lisp 08:53:24 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 08:53:50 Zhivago: Learning - a process of understanding in which a foundation for further understanding is laid? 08:53:59 Meaningless gibberish. 08:54:06 Make it a definition that is measurable. 08:54:21 How can you tell if something has learned or not? 08:55:15 -!- Rectify [~Andrel@cpc1-lich6-0-0-cust11.3-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:55:22 It's still going to be gibberish, I'm afraid, but I might pick something up from this, so here goes. 08:55:25 marijnjh [~user@p5DDB2414.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:05 Something has learned if it makes better decisions next time. 08:57:21 Zhivago: So, where do I start reading to make sense of this field? AIMA? 08:57:45 chrnybo: Ok. So we can measure learning in terms of the success to failure ratio of the outcome of its decisions. 08:58:08 chrnybo: That's a definition that is meaningful because we can potentially measure it and determine if something is probably learning or not. 08:58:25 chrybo: Note that it doesn't involve anything like "understanding". 08:59:03 Zhivago, it might not be that easy ... as soon as someone learns, he takes more difficult problems - and then the failure ratio is worse again. There has to be some account of difficulty. 08:59:25 xavierHart [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has joined #lisp 08:59:30 Well, that definition should be with respect to a specific task. 08:59:31 -!- boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 08:59:33 -!- splittist [~John@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: airport open - i gotta fly] 08:59:39 is this discussion regarding artificial learning or human? 08:59:44 You can then measure the generalization of learning across tasks separately. 08:59:48 boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:59:55 guthur: Why should there be a difference? 09:00:22 If your definitions can't cover both, then they're broken. 09:00:25 Zhivago: I don't think we are anywhere near human 'understanding' 09:00:38 guthur: So what? What does understanding have to do with any of this? 09:00:39 in the artificial learning field 09:01:10 But if you want to talk about understanding, then give a meaningful definition of it. 09:01:18 How can you measure if something is understanding or not? 09:01:22 Well if you want to just carry out a certain action for a given set of inputs sure that's easy 09:01:36 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:01:59 Guthur: really? 09:02:16 Guthur: Find a case which isn't reducible to "just carry out a certain action for a given set of inputs" that is relevant. 09:02:26 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:03:00 Zhivago: Programming 09:03:07 Zhivago: Somewhere in learning or understanding, I'd like to place the feature that it prepares for understanding/learning something more complex. 09:03:11 Guthur: You are obviously wrong. 09:03:22 obviously 09:03:26 Gutur: You can reduce programming to carrying out a certain action for a given set of inputs. 09:03:46 no that's what a program does 09:03:46 mega1: Congrats :) 09:03:55 Guthur: So what? 09:04:24 mega1: How far along is the blog post? 09:04:29 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has joined #lisp 09:04:30 aerique: it's up 09:04:47 http://quotenil.com/Planet-Wars-Post-Mortem.html 09:04:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@dsl4E5C0047.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:06:01 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:06:09 chrnybo: I strongly suggest that you do not talk about any qualities that you cannot produce a potential test for. 09:06:31 chrynbo: Since if you can't test for them, they don't actually exist in any meaningful fashion. 09:06:33 mega1: oh, it wasn't when i left from home, i should have check first when arriving at work 09:06:50 Zhivago: So how would you measure human intelligence? 09:07:14 Guthur: What problem am I trying to solve with this measurement? 09:07:23 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:07:37 true intelligence is surely domain agnostic 09:07:39 Guthur: IQ: Ability to produce potential tests? 09:08:43 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 09:08:52 Guthur: Then you'll be able to answer my question. 09:09:10 Guthur: If you cannot, then your notion of intelligence is incoherent and can be discarded. 09:10:29 mega1: i'm disappointed by my ranking especially since it looked like i might break into the top 100 the last week. won't hold me back from the next challenge though :) 09:12:16 -!- SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:18 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:12:29 aerique: aren't you tired of it? 09:13:57 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:14:55 mega1: for now yes, i continue with some projects that i've put off for too long but if the next competition looks interesting enough in a couple of months i will participate again 09:15:01 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: zZzZzZz] 09:15:34 is the google challenge a common occurence 09:15:35 <|3b|> hopefully i'll have time for the next one, not that i got anywhere when i tried the tron game :) 09:15:57 Ok, I'm off for a bit -- see if you can think of definitions that are measurable. 09:17:56 Guthur: seems to be twice a year. the Tron challenge was only a month long though 09:19:34 did any lisp implementation make the top 100 of the ton one 09:19:36 tron* 09:19:57 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:20:02 nvm 09:20:12 oh packed full of C++ 09:20:38 I think this one was way too long. 09:20:58 only university students have so much time. 09:22:18 mega1: You were top lisp implementation in tron as well 09:22:23 Guthur: yes, it was dominated by C++ because search depth and thus speed was important 09:22:28 11 was very respectable 09:22:59 loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has joined #lisp 09:23:05 mega1: Which version of CL did they use 09:23:08 for tron 09:23:12 sbcl 09:23:32 1.0.19 for tron, 1.0.11 for planet wars :-o 09:24:06 ye that's a little surprising 09:24:20 wonder why the earlier version 09:24:47 their ubuntu came with it 09:25:49 ah, ubuntu is not so good for SBCL packages 09:26:50 you didn't need the extra performance though, congrats 09:27:30 mega1: Have you tried playing against you AI 09:27:35 you/your 09:28:12 Guthur: no, although there was a program that allowed that 09:28:30 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:28:39 it would probably kick your butt though, hehe 09:29:06 I think I'd win easily if given a long time to execute moves. 09:29:19 surely in an real-time setting it's hopeless 09:33:05 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 09:33:24 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 09:35:17 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:36:55 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:38:45 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:28 MoALTz_ [~no@92.20.24.127] has joined #lisp 09:40:12 hazel [~user@ip-118-90-25-99.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:42:49 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.20.24.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:46:50 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host86-150-107-247.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:47:23 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-70.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:47:45 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-164-95-68.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:47:46 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 09:49:05 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:50:31 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu219.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:50:56 wvdschel [~wim@vpna177.ugent.be] has joined #lisp 09:50:56 -!- wvdschel [~wim@vpna177.ugent.be] has quit [Changing host] 09:50:56 wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has joined #lisp 09:52:45 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-150-107-247.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:57:21 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 09:58:03 bojovs [~bojovs@202.209.91.169] has joined #lisp 09:58:22 -!- bojovs [~bojovs@202.209.91.169] has left #lisp 10:00:28 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:02:27 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E108.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:56 kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #lisp 10:06:00 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9ED50.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:06:05 -!- kanru [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Client Quit] 10:06:18 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::1a:f5b7] has joined #lisp 10:06:24 -!- nipra_ [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:06:42 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:06:58 nipra_ [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 10:08:36 e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-ddhpmykeaqsffxuk] has joined #lisp 10:09:52 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::1a:f5b7] has quit [Client Quit] 10:12:31 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu219.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:15:09 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:15:14 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:16:10 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 10:17:25 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::1a:f5b7] has joined #lisp 10:23:29 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:25:15 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:51 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:30:27 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:33:58 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 10:34:25 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:35:57 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:37:51 dfox_ [~dfox@ip-89-176-11-41.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:38:15 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 10:40:15 so, i have this this tree (:foo (:bar "baz" :bla (:blub "bloeh")) ...) and i need to create a copy of it, with some additional nodes inserted at specific places in the tree. what would be a good, lightweight approach to this? 10:41:10 the first part is easy, copy-tree 10:43:23 how are the "specific places" defined? offset? preceeding element? 10:44:51 flip214: preceding elements. i.e. i'd like to insert something after :blub "bloeh", knowing only the :blub part. the tree will eventually be converted to xml and i can also do that first and then use xpaths and dom methods, but i wonder if there is something more elegant. 10:45:42 well, if it depends I'd just write a recursing tree-copy myself, looking for the trigger elements and inserting into the tree as needed 10:46:03 should constant elements be inserted, or do they depend on the position/preceeding element? 10:46:17 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::1a:f5b7] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 10:46:46 flip214: they are independent of the existing tree, but need to be inserted at specific positions. 10:50:19 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:50:56 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.84.198.38] has joined #lisp 10:52:59 H4ns, http://paste.lisp.org/display/117239 ?? 10:53:23 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:53:26 mitre__ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:29 -!- mitre__ is now known as mitre 10:54:23 flip214: hm, so i guess what you mean to say is that i need to write it myself :) 10:54:34 flip214: thanks! i'll go for that 10:55:22 H4ns, test it a bit ... might contain bugs. 10:55:45 flip214: certainly. 10:55:52 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:55:54 contains certainly bugs? 10:56:04 flip214: certainly test 10:56:05 :) 10:57:50 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:02:50 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:04:07 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:04:53 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:05:11 (let ((substitute (list ()))) (subst-if substitute (lambda (x) (when (and (consp x) (eql (car x) :blub)) (setf (car substitute) (car x) (cdr substitute) (cdr x) (cddr substitute) (cons "new-thing" (cddr substitute))) t)) '(:foo (:bar "baz" :bla (a b c :blub "bloeh"))))) => (:FOO (:BAR "baz" :BLA (A B C :BLUB "bloeh" "new-thing" "foo"))) 11:05:20 hmm 11:05:56 actually, i was looking for something more declarative. 11:06:18 but i think there is no such thing, so i'll just write my own custom traverse-and-copy thing 11:06:29 HG` [~HG@xdsleh213.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:07:44 -!- hazel [~user@ip-118-90-25-99.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:08:06 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 11:08:53 H4ns: http://paste.lisp.org/ 11:09:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117240 11:10:05 does not work for tree consisting of dotted lists, methinks 11:10:19 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117239#1 that's what i meant 11:10:22 no dotted lists, but multiple substitutions 11:10:48 but thanks, guys. i think i know my way now! :) 11:13:04 tcr: couldn't you just (eql sexp symbol) without (and (symbolp sexp) )? 11:13:55 that way it will work not only on symbols 11:14:09 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:16:11 I might have started with loop for sexp on tree, and then had to guard against the final NIL 11:16:26 no wait that does not make sense either 11:19:39 Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 11:21:23 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:22:04 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:22:35 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:28:39 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:30:07 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:31:06 Somebody please ask Xach to add loopless to the quicklisp database. Thanks! 11:31:46 open a ticket? 11:32:16 stassats, how? 11:33:53 by visiting https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues and filling it with some prose 11:34:23 stassats, your paste inserts one element too late, doesn't it? 11:34:52 flip214: depends on what late is 11:35:19 (insert-after :blub "new-thing" '(:foo (:bar "baz" :bla (a b c :blub "bloeh" :foo)))) => 11:35:19 (:FOO (:BAR "baz" :BLA (A B C :BLUB "bloeh" "new-thing" :FOO))) 11:35:31 stassats, thanks. 11:35:31 shouldn't the "new-thing" be directly after :blub? 11:35:57 flip214: Hans said "i.e. i'd like to insert something after :blub "bloeh", knowing only the :blub part." 11:36:04 ok 11:36:57 -!- lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:37:21 lharc [~shrek@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 11:40:00 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.66.205.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:40:34 Yuuhi [benni@p5483AD1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:42 cmm [~cmm@109.66.205.250] has joined #lisp 11:41:03 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:42:15 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:43:55 shrek9 [~user@88.131.67.194] has joined #lisp 11:44:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:44:45 -!- shrek9 [~user@88.131.67.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:53:37 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:53:37 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 11:53:38 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.49.6] has joined #lisp 11:54:33 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::1b:876f] has joined #lisp 11:56:30 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:58:41 -!- kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59:58 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432703.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:03:26 kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:04:06 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 12:05:54 -!- ehu changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: ABCL 0.23.1, SBCL 1.0.44, Bordeaux-Threads 0.8.0, CMUCL 20b, SBCL User Survey http://random-state.net/sbcl-survey-2010.html [have you considered /mode #lisp +t] 12:07:37 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:07:48 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:08:16 hlavaty` [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:08:27 bojovs [~bojovs@p4173-ipad49hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:09:38 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:09:38 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:09:47 jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:09:57 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:04 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:10:45 quick question, what is the control sequence for printing lists in "format" function? 12:10:53 ~{~} 12:11:37 It's so nice to have uint{8,16,32,64} around as type abbreviation for `(unsigned-byte ,size) 12:11:37 -!- hlavaty` [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:41 ch077179 [~ch077179@nat/ibm/x-wxqcghjhfvqfpuzo] has joined #lisp 12:12:38 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 12:14:23 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:46 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:17:43 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:18:26 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:19:47 -!- nipra_ [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:24:16 -!- Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:26:25 Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 12:27:01 tcr: when I try (format t "~{~}" '(1 2 3)) it says "There are not enough arguments left for this format directive." 12:27:29 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:27:41 ~{~a~ 12:27:41 ~{~} is for iterating through the list 12:27:46 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:47 put something inside it to do for every element 12:28:16 aha 12:29:00 urandom__ [~user@p548A4116.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:21 Fuco: if you just want to print the list itself, use ~A or ~S 12:29:32 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:48 so what if I wanted [1, 2, 3], would that be possible? 12:29:50 Fuco: ~{...~} is used to iterate over a list, i.e. when you want to format each list element individually. 12:29:51 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:05 (format t "[~{~d, ~}]" '(1 2 3)) 12:30:13 like this but the last ', ' should be omited 12:30:24 Fuco: right. ~{~D~^, ~} 12:30:32 mek||malloc [~mek@12.230.222.196] has joined #lisp 12:30:45 Fuco: this is from the spec. i'd strongly suggest that you look at it. 12:30:53 yea, where can I find it? 12:30:55 I googled a bit 12:31:02 but all I hit were some stupid tutorials 12:31:15 Fuco: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 12:31:28 thanks 12:33:04 nipra_ [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 12:33:33 this is like a whole new programming language :P 12:33:39 reminds me of J a bit :D 12:34:04 this would probably be valid J program "~@(~@[~R~]~^ ~A!~)" :D 12:34:16 -!- nipra_ [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Client Quit] 12:34:36 How would I go about summing an outer loop over an inner nested loop? For each inner loop I am calculating some sum and in my outer loop, I would like to sum the results of the inner loop. My example is http://paste.lisp.org/+2IGQ . I have pointed out the line where I am stuck. Would I just sum from the outer loop and then return-from the accumulated sum in the inner loop using a finally? If so, how can the outer loop access the sum of the inner loop? 12:35:15 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:19 mek||malloc: use sum, not do in the outer loop 12:36:17 H4ns: I thought this might be the case, but if I do this, how will I be able to access the inner sum from the outer loop? The outer loop will attempt to accumulate a value which has not yet been calculated by the inner loop. 12:36:33 mek||malloc: erm. no. 12:36:53 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:37:12 H4ns: Ah, perhaps you can point out where my confusion is occurring? It's probably a misunderstanding of loops on my part. 12:37:54 mek||malloc: the inner loop returns a value, but you're currently using DO in the outer loop, so the returned value is discarded. if you used SUM instead, it would be accumulated. 12:37:54 Oh, perhaps you mean I just perform in the outer loop.... literally: sum (loop named inner ... 12:38:04 right. 12:38:53 H4ns: That makes sense. I understood I could use sum (the loop construct) instead of do... I wasn't sure how to use sum in the outer loop to access the sum of the inner loop... But this clarification (just summing the actual inner loop itself) makes so much sense. 12:39:04 H4ns: Thank you very much for your help. This answered my question. 12:39:10 *bow* 12:44:19 horze [~kim@c-601172d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:47:59 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::1b:876f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:56:15 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-otqvupcctzxndpya] has left #lisp 12:57:54 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-101.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:58:29 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:58:30 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:59:51 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 13:01:15 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::1b:91f3] has joined #lisp 13:01:45 Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:11 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:02:19 Bronsa [~bronsa@host245-184-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:04:05 murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has joined #lisp 13:05:50 Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:04 -!- konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:12:08 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:12:29 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::1b:91f3] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:17:26 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has joined #lisp 13:19:39 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:25 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::1b:944f] has joined #lisp 13:27:13 LuckyGeb [~LuckyGeb@112.80.217.106] has joined #lisp 13:27:40 -!- LuckyGeb [~LuckyGeb@112.80.217.106] has left #lisp 13:28:13 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::1b:944f] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:28:14 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:29:15 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:01 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:32 -!- delt0r_ [~bob@kimura.cibiv.univie.ac.at] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:37:08 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:08 -!- xavierHart [debian-tor@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:37:10 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:37:54 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:39:10 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-86.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:41:35 LuckyGeb [~LuckyGeb@112.80.217.106] has joined #lisp 13:43:07 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:43:41 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:43:59 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-99-193.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:44:49 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-67-83.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:47:12 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:47:48 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:48:10 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 13:49:31 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has joined #lisp 13:50:24 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu219.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:53:25 Is there a shortcut method or removing an element from a vector / returning a new displaced vector not containing some position i 13:53:30 for* removing 13:53:45 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-145-187-245.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:53 clhs remove 13:53:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 13:54:07 stassats: Thanks for the resource. 13:54:25 and not the latter, unless your position is at the beginning or at the end 13:54:45 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.49.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:54:48 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:55:07 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:57:04 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.90.1] 13:57:31 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:35 stdDoubt [~ptiago@a79-169-47-40.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 13:57:37 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:58:01 how can i print (+ 1 2) as "1+2"? 13:58:07 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:58:13 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-126-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 13:58:25 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:58:31 stdDoubt: (print "1+2") 13:58:45 (format t "~a~a~a" (second '(+ 1 2)) (first '(+ 1 2)) (third '(+ 1 2))) 13:59:08 thanks stassats 13:59:14 O_o 13:59:43 (destructuring-bind (op arg1 arg2) `(+ 1 2) (format nil "~a ~a ~a" arg1 op arg2)) 13:59:51 *sigh*. I am beginning to understand why every project seems to create its own testing framework. 14:00:00 (let ((form (list '+ 1 2))) (rotatef (first form) (second form)) (format t "~{~a~}" form)) 14:00:18 ooh :) 14:00:29 beach: what is it? 14:00:29 (print (form-to-string (+ 1 2)) 14:00:57 schmrkc: (print (form-to-string (prefix-to-infix '(+ 1 2))) 14:01:04 beach: because they are lazy to fix the existing ones? 14:01:12 jdz: oh. Didn't see the infix :) 14:01:24 jdz: I am beginning to realize that 1) a testing framework is a relatively simple thing to write, at least a special version of one, and 2) it is hard to write one that works well for every project. 14:02:11 beach: what are the limitations of test frameworks you are encountering for your current project? 14:03:55 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:04:03 hargettp: It's for the SICL sequences module (that implements the CL sequences dictionary). I need to auotmatically generate all combinations of :start, :end, :from-end, and more, and put each one into a test. That seems to require a programmatic interface to the testing framework, but I have been using lisp-unit, which seems to make that hard. 14:04:07 thanks :D... I have another doubt if we have '(this is just An Example list) how can we print the lisp keeping the letter case? 14:04:26 stdDoubt: first you must read the list keeping letter case. 14:04:43 how? 14:04:54 beach: ah, yes, I use lisp-unit as well...and have frequently modified it to suit my needs... 14:04:59 beach: my condolences :( 14:05:15 I'd think the simple solution for the (+ 1 2) problem is to write a genetic algorithm to figure out what to do. 14:05:29 now when is the celebration party for lisp rockin' the AI challenge? 14:05:40 beach: on the plus side, at least it is a *simple* framework to start with...theoretically, that's easier to extend / enhance than if it were a more sophisticated framework to modify 14:05:48 schmrkc: the party is over already 14:05:51 ouch 14:06:05 oh well. maybe next year (: 14:06:51 <_8david> beach: I would have thought that Lisp macros should make it easy to generate multiple test forms using -any- Lisp testing framework. What am I missing? 14:06:58 tmh maintains a repository with some lisp-unit changes, if you present him patches, i think he will consider integrating them 14:07:34 https://github.com/OdonataResearchLLC/lisp-unit 14:07:55 stassats: that's cool, did not know; I remember needing an additional, but very specific "extension point" that lisp-unit did not expose...perhaps I can find it and hand it off (if it's as useful as I recall) 14:07:55 <_8david> say, (macrolet ((helper () ..generate-deftest-forms...)) (helper)) 14:08:17 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:08:17 konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has joined #lisp 14:08:51 beach: don't all the tests wind up as either forms or funcallables stashed in a special variable in your test package? I've thought of rewriting the define-test macro myself before, just as you may be about to do. 14:09:38 is there anything like a trivial-introspection that my googling might have missed? 14:10:21 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:44 swank? 14:11:55 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:11:56 stassats: ha, good point 14:11:56 -!- mek||malloc [~mek@12.230.222.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:11:57 _8david: I am not sure you are missing anything. Maybe I am. I just don't see how to do it easily. 14:12:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:12:03 Sikander [~userid@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 14:12:35 Hi, does anyone have experience with cffi (sbcl) under windows (mingw)? 14:13:22 <_8david> Sikander: what specifically? 14:13:25 I have the problem that cffi runs gcc with the -fPIC option, which mingw gcc apparently doesn't understand 14:13:27 hargettp: Actually, no, I still can't figure out how to make that work for my case. I need a define-test inside a loop. I guess I could transform my loop from executing the test, to generating a test to execute. But why bother? 14:13:45 beach: indeed :) 14:14:20 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 14:14:47 _8david: do you have any suggestions for getting rid of the -fPIC option? 14:15:12 <_8david> hmm, cffi calls gcc? Is it cffi-grovel that does this? 14:15:21 <_8david> I'm using cffi on windows, but not cffi-grovel. 14:15:27 _8david: Oh, yes, sorry. indeed, cffi-grovel. 14:15:50 sadeness [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has joined #lisp 14:16:08 _8david: Oh, ok 14:16:48 why does it need PIC? 14:16:57 It shouldn't 14:16:57 <_8david> I see that cffi-grovel doesn't use -fPIC when used on #+windows. Perhaps SBCL doesn't set the WINDOWS feature and has only mswindows or win32? I don't recall. 14:17:04 <_8david> Perhaps cffi-features should be used there. 14:17:07 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:17:15 _8david: Ah, ok, sbcl sets win32 14:17:21 I'll try it, thanks 14:18:22 doesn't it use trivial-features? 14:19:52 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 14:19:57 Eh, yes, it uses trivial-features. 14:20:16 I just tried pushing :windows and :mswindows onto *features*, but no luck. Still -fPIC 14:20:35 well, trivial-features pushes :windows 14:20:41 ? 14:20:47 ¿ 14:20:49 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:56 D'oh, I don't understand... 14:21:13 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@44-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:24 udzinari [~opera@nat/ibm/x-fzoxwxtkqgqcvfkp] has joined #lisp 14:21:26 what don't you understand? 14:21:39 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.80.167] has joined #lisp 14:21:57 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:51 Ah, it pushes cffi-features:windows 14:22:53 -!- aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:23:03 i see that it uses -fPIC unconditionally 14:23:28 So except for hacking cffi-grovel, there's no way to get rid of -fPIC 14:23:30 ? 14:24:16 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@119.57.31.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:24:16 <_8david> I'm looking at cffi from git, BTW. 14:24:38 Ah, ok, I'm using a quicklisp version from a few days ago 14:25:17 -!- ATH500 [~ATH500@70.35.170.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:25:23 i was looking at cffi from darcs 14:27:00 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.80.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:27:05 Ok, I'll use the one from git, thanks 14:28:54 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.115] has joined #lisp 14:29:09 I'm having an issue with SBCL - I wrote a program that reads in a very large text file (~350k lines) line-by -line (using read-line) and adds each line to a data structure. About 1/3 the way through the file, SBCL stops - no error message or exception, it just stops responding, CPU usage goes to 0% and i have to kill -9 it. Any ideas? 14:29:32 It works fine on a shorter test file, and it stops on different lines each time. 14:29:32 necroforest: are you running sbcl in slime? 14:29:35 yes 14:29:44 necroforest: is there any interesting output in the *inferior-lisp* buffer? 14:30:05 i'm not sure - this is at work, i'll have to check when i go in this morning 14:30:07 ATH500 [~ATH500@64.235.207.148] has joined #lisp 14:30:22 necroforest: are you using a 32-bit computer? 14:30:52 necroforest: 350k doesn't say much, how much in bytes? 14:30:59 350k lines 14:31:22 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsleh213.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:34:19 that's probably about 100 megs 14:34:20 at 320 bytes per line (80 characters) that's only 112MB 14:34:37 but if it's a bunch of dna sequences or something they might be longer lines 14:35:34 necroforest: are you [accidentally] trying to print those lines? 14:36:04 necroforest: that would keep emacs busy for quite some time 14:36:14 Maybe he is driving to work right now. 14:37:49 necro: Did you find out the process status of sbcl at that point? 14:39:05 _8david, Sikander: the cffi-features stuff was deprecated in favor of trivial-features. 14:39:56 -!- LuckyGeb [~LuckyGeb@112.80.217.106] has left #lisp 14:40:31 luis: Ah, ok, thanks. How can I configure where the groveler puts the C source file etc? 14:41:58 luis: Right now it puts it in some crazy Application Data directory, and I don't know if the spaces in the names are escaped when the groveller calls gcc. 14:43:57 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:14 mek||malloc [~mek@wifi-roaming-128-4-225-80.nss.udel.edu] has joined #lisp 14:47:23 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-86.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:47:47 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@114.84.198.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:48:02 maden [~maden@198.168.103.2] has joined #lisp 14:50:28 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3EA1.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:52:50 mitre__ [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 14:53:08 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:54:15 sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:07 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:55:15 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:55:17 -!- mitre__ is now known as mitre 14:55:31 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:30 rfg [~rfg@client-86-16-214-73.glw-bng-11.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:04 -!- udzinari [~opera@nat/ibm/x-fzoxwxtkqgqcvfkp] has left #lisp 15:00:30 LuckyGeb [~LuckyGeb@112.80.217.106] has joined #lisp 15:00:44 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-kjfsudelocoftbkz] has joined #lisp 15:01:55 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 15:02:06 -!- LuckyGeb [~LuckyGeb@112.80.217.106] has left #lisp 15:02:26 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:05:36 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:41 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:05:49 64 bits, probably about 30-40mb in size, and i tried it with printing (for debugging) and without printing 15:06:09 maybe 100mb 15:06:20 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:50 necroforest: if you're reading into strings and don't throw them away, the 100mb will use 400mb virtual memory because each character is encoded as 32 bits. 15:07:17 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:07:20 necroforest: check your *inferior-lisp* buffer and also check the output of "dmesg" 15:07:34 H4ns, ok thanks. 400mb should be find, the system has 32GB 15:08:01 why would it encode each character as 32 bits? 15:08:14 necroforest: well, if you print something to your repl for each line, emacs will basically die. 15:08:30 necroforest: sbcl uses unicode and unicode char points don't fit in 8 bits. 15:08:46 tfb [~tfb@94.197.20.144.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:08:53 yeah, that makes sense - however, emacs was fine and SBCL had to be killed; also, it hangs when i turn off printing. 15:09:13 couldn't it use UTF-8 encoding? 15:09:13 necroforest: the *inferior-lisp* part might be helpful, then. 15:09:17 Where should I put defparameter forms in a cl program? 15:09:18 necroforest: what are you doing with the strings? 15:09:37 necroforest: utf-8 isn't very convenient, due to variable length 15:09:42 sepi: before they're used 15:09:47 necroforest: utf-8 is inefficient for random access to individual characters. 15:10:20 I saw a page that suggested that UTF-8 was practical using ropes instead of strings 15:10:35 <_8david> ... and unfortunately, Lisp is specified to implement strings as arrays, so random access to individual characters is needed by implication, even though nobody needs it for real world uses of strings 15:10:43 asymptotically? 15:10:46 snap. 15:10:58 H4ns, that makes sense 15:11:17 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-145-187-245.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: jconrad] 15:11:25 dlowe: hmm, so just putting them on the top level is fine normally? I had the problem that this didn't seem to work when I was dumping an image 15:11:26 It's not even a matter of utf-8 -- you need it for unicode. 15:11:46 Since a lisp character is actually a unicode combining character sequence. 15:12:01 sepi: you should always put them in the top level. How didn't it work? 15:12:16 -!- rfg [~rfg@client-86-16-214-73.glw-bng-11.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rfg] 15:12:25 ok, i'm off to work- thanks everyone for their help 15:12:36 necroforest: don't leave us in suspense for too long! 15:12:36 dlowe: are you sure you're conveying the right message? 15:12:37 dlowe: I think it wasn't evaluated when loading the image 15:13:08 jdz: I should say not to use defparameter? 15:13:09 Sikander: it used to place the output next to the source files. Maybe with ASDF2 it's placing it somewhere else. I haven't checked. 15:13:37 dlowe: no, just to make sure the meaning of "top level" is clear 15:15:39 luis: on ASDF2 output-location redirection is enabled by default 15:15:49 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@212-14-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 15:15:54 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has joined #lisp 15:16:33 sepi: no clue 15:16:56 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:17:40 sepi: you said "loaded the image" 15:17:52 benny [~benny@i577A2233.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:17:55 sepi: defparameter initializations are not evaluated when an image is loaded. 15:18:09 sepi: they are evaluated when the fasl or the lisp file is loaded. 15:18:32 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-217-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:39 H4ns: shouldn't the binding to a value already exist in the image? 15:18:59 sepi: an image is a "frozen" representation of your current lisp session. little initialization happens when you are loading an image, and what exactly happens is entirely implementation dependent. 15:19:22 dlowe: well, sure. if a binding happens when dumping the image, it will exist when loading the image. 15:20:08 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-179-44-56.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:20:10 s/happens/exists/ 15:22:25 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 15:22:44 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-202-167.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:25:00 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:26:38 H4ns: I see, so I just have to evaluate the defparameter form before dumping the image 15:27:12 H4ns: will the toplevel defparamter forms also be evaluated when i load the system via asdf? 15:27:20 sepi: yes. 15:27:25 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 15:27:33 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 15:27:35 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 15:28:31 -!- Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:28:33 H4ns: is it good practice to just put initialization setf forms in the toplevel forms, or should I bundle them in an init function? 15:29:35 sepi: an init function is preferable. you'll then be able to control initialization explicitly, whereas the top-level can be hard to predict (i.e. forms could be evaluated multiple times) 15:29:55 sepi: if you have an init function, you'll also be able to call that during image initialization. 15:30:08 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:31:53 -!- gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-24-217-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:32:30 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:33:17 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:35:41 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:11 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 15:37:41 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:41:52 kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::1b:b349] has joined #lisp 15:42:51 H4ns: ok, that sounds very reasonable 15:42:55 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:43:27 H4ns: so would you also put defparameter fomrs in an init function 15:43:52 carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.129] has joined #lisp 15:44:01 sepi: no. defparameter initialization is performed at (file) load time. 15:45:10 ok 15:45:26 sepi: i.e. use setf, put the defparameter forms to the top level. 15:45:37 ok 15:45:41 -!- churib [~churib@dslc-082-082-126-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:45:47 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:04 another thing: is it possible to set a package nickname from outside of the package? 15:46:42 I'm using hunchentoot and don't like the idea of use-ing it in my package, but would like to just call it ht 15:47:52 clhs rename-package 15:47:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rn_pkg.htm 15:48:04 sepi see ^^^ 15:48:58 *cmm* still doesn't quite like the whole concept of global package nicknames, though 15:49:29 (rename-package 'hunchentoot 'hunchentoot '(ht)) like this? 15:50:12 sepi: yup 15:50:23 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:32 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:50 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.254.3] has joined #lisp 15:50:55 awesome, my code just got shorter :) 15:51:33 have you tried gzipping it? 15:51:39 cmm: yeah, it would be nice to just have a per file or somehow local nickname mechanism 15:51:42 you also now have a potential naming conflict if you ever try to use someone else's package called (or nicknamed) 'ht, but hey 15:52:04 sepi: Per-package, like (:use #:cl (#:hunchentoot #:ht) ...) 15:52:24 ymasory_ [~ymasory@grok.psych.upenn.edu] has joined #lisp 15:52:36 sellout: I don't want to use the package 15:52:47 I like having the prefixes 15:52:59 I think conduits allow package-local nicknames, but I'm scared of conduits 15:53:18 sepi: That's my point  if that syntax were there, it would give a package-local nickname of HT. 15:53:38 Its like "use #:hunchentoot as #:ht" 15:53:59 sellout: ahh, that does not exist. I was a little confused why it would appear in a use clause 15:54:07 sellout: so ccl is getting such an extension soon, I take it? :) 15:54:15 sellout: yeah, but that would allready be nice 15:54:25 cmm: bah, why ask the ios hacker? 15:54:36 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-246.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 15:54:42 minion: ios? 15:54:43 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``ios''. 15:54:45 Xach: That's what I was about to say  I get very little time to play with CCL. 15:55:25 And I tend to add IDE or Cocoa-bridge features when I do. 15:55:52 *sellout* makes sure his Apple tattoo doesn't need any retouching. 15:58:27 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:00:53 kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.229] has joined #lisp 16:00:53 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.166.229] has quit [Changing host] 16:00:53 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:01:39 sellout: What's all this about ccl and ios now? 16:01:57 *seangrove* has been alternating between chicken and gambit scheme for ios dev 16:02:24 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 16:03:08 seangrove: I work for Clozure, but mostly do iOS dev these days  in Obj-C, but there is an ARM port of CCL (although I think gb is the only one who's used it on an iOS device). 16:03:21 I used it on an ipad at ILC! 16:03:26 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:28 it was gb's ipad, though. 16:03:58 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Client Quit] 16:04:02 sellout: hmm, lisp for arm! 16:05:09 hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:05:16 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:05:40 gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has joined #lisp 16:06:31 cmm: So I put this rename-package form in the toplevel but it does not show any effect when I asdf load the system. How could I fix this? 16:06:36 sellout: Ah, interesting. Thanks... I've been looking for a lisp on the iphone, but seems like maybe I should just settle for a c-compiling scheme for the obj-c interop 16:11:51 sepi: You have to load the system, then rename it. 16:12:01 s/it/the package/ 16:12:52 sellout: well, asdf should load hunchentoot prior to compiling my file 16:13:16 sepi: Ok, then I'm not sure what's happening. 16:13:37 rename-package won't do anything at compile time anyway, unless you surround it with the proper eval-when magic incantation 16:14:23 it's a regular function, after all 16:14:52 cmm: so (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (rename-package ..))? 16:15:29 cmm: I'm not very familiar whith the loading/compiling process in cl yet 16:15:33 I'd just put the rename-package just before your package definition form 16:15:40 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:15:44 Hey all, I'm beginning to dive deeper into lisp land, and deal with the low-level debugger, but I'm not really sure how to use this information for too much (other than seeing what's causing the crash in my app) 16:16:08 low-level debugger? 16:16:09 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:16:13 sellout: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117249 16:16:22 I have the backtrace here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117248, and it looks like chunga might be at fault, but I'm not sure 16:16:40 Xach: That's what is says :) 16:16:40 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@nat/ibm/x-wxqcghjhfvqfpuzo] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 16:16:42 "Welcome to LDB, a low-level debugger for the Lisp runtime environment." 16:17:24 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mamobinkdsagorrh] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:17:48 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:18:32 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:21:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:21:06 drdo [~user@194.210.228.105] has joined #lisp 16:21:25 seangrove: ah. i have no idea either. is that on darwin? 16:25:56 -!- Intensity [IaQtVDRv7J@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:27:15 hi xach. 16:28:02 Xach: Yeah, darwin. Perhaps I should move my dev over to a linux box and dev remotely 16:28:27 -!- wvdschel [~wim@unaffiliated/yukito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:28:45 yeah, landing in ldb is Very Bad News 16:30:07 cmm: Heh, I'm glad to hear that. I was able to see the backtrace, which is useful to approximate the problem source, but wasn't sure about where to go from there. 16:30:34 out! 16:30:48 -!- gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has left #lisp 16:32:11 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.49.6] has joined #lisp 16:35:55 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.254.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:39:06 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:43:10 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:45:11 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:49 seangrove: ouch...FWIW, I run SBCL on Darwin (OS X) all the time, no issues like this....perhaps worth mentioning the paste in the #sbcl channel (although so many are in this one too)? 16:47:16 -!- kanru [~kanru@2001:c08:3700:ffff::1b:b349] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:48:52 hmmm... did I get the link to http://fob.po8.org/student-code from here? 16:48:58 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 16:52:51 Intensity [z1STYHpvh3@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 16:56:48 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:57:40 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-246.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:09 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:11 hargettp: I'll give it a try :) Thanks 16:58:55 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:31 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:00:32 -!- maden [~maden@198.168.103.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:17 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-145-187-245.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:21 -!- e-user [~akahl@nat/nokia/x-ddhpmykeaqsffxuk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:04:13 -!- Guest3480 [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:05:33 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:06:22 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-86.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 17:07:27 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:26 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.50.232] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:10:04 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.193.241] has joined #lisp 17:10:14 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 17:10:23 -!- xristos is now known as Guest86356 17:10:50 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:34 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:12:13 -!- Guest86356 is now known as xristos` 17:12:24 -!- xristos` is now known as xristos 17:14:41 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:15:00 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:16:08 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7576ad.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:09 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-miszhwreyygplxrt] has joined #lisp 17:18:12 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.234.153] has joined #lisp 17:19:46 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:17 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:24:16 SolarBoom1 [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has joined #lisp 17:26:40 -!- SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:31:31 -!- drdo [~user@194.210.228.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:32:16 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050064196.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:34:17 -!- Sikander [~userid@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:38:00 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:40:05 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:42:49 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 17:43:14 aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has joined #lisp 17:44:25 splittist [~John@62-50-225-15.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:27 morning 17:44:37 -!- antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-miszhwreyygplxrt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:45:34 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:47:20 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-1-148.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:49:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-197.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:52:09 -!- mek||malloc [~mek@wifi-roaming-128-4-225-80.nss.udel.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:55:01 jdz [~jdz@host108-71-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:55:21 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:56:02 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:56:46 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:30 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:57:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-124.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:58:19 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:58:38 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:01:07 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:02:21 powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-3-95.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:25 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@212-14-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:03:58 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has joined #lisp 18:04:10 -!- SolarBoom1 [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:28 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.254.3] has joined #lisp 18:13:46 -!- Guthur [c743cb8e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.199.67.203.142] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:13:55 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:40 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:16:54 aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 18:31:08 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:32:29 -!- milanj [~milanj_@77-46-202-167.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:32:39 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:32:55 anonymouse89 [~brian@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:59 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:34:38 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:35:28 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:30 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-141-17.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 18:39:04 ak70 [~ak70@46.11.10.227] has joined #lisp 18:39:41 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.66.205.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:40:07 cmm [~cmm@109.66.205.250] has joined #lisp 18:41:44 aanand [~user@14.99.4.245] has joined #lisp 18:42:42 -!- ak70 [~ak70@46.11.10.227] has quit [Client Quit] 18:43:16 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 18:44:52 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:06 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.193.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:45:07 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:45:11 schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:45:11 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 18:45:11 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 18:46:36 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.151.57] has joined #lisp 18:48:41 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 18:49:09 drdo [~user@194.210.228.105] has joined #lisp 18:49:27 any chance i could pick all your brains for a min 18:49:29 im having a prob solving something 18:49:31 i need to record audio in a lisp app 18:49:33 but there is lib to do that 18:49:35 to i wrote a simple python tcp server that uses pyaudio 18:49:44 which i wanted to launch from my lisp app 18:49:49 but im not sure how to do this 18:50:00 the server daemonizes after the socket is established 18:50:19 -!- anonymouse89 [~brian@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:24 but all the commands in Lisp that i try using to launch the daemon dont work as expected 18:51:40 i think the shell gets closed when my daemon returns 18:51:42 PuffTheMagic: what did you expect? what happened instead? 18:52:05 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host245-184-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:52:17 i was hoping the lisp function would return when the python daemon returns 18:52:21 Bronsa [~bronsa@host245-184-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:52:24 and still leave the daemon running 18:52:28 but im thinking that is not possible 18:53:02 PuffTheMagic: I'd like to help, but your answer is too vague for me. 18:53:17 sorry i will try again 18:53:25 merijn [~merijn@inconsistent.nl] has joined #lisp 18:53:47 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-043-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:02 PuffTheMagic: I'm looking for an answer along the lines of: "I ran (sb-ext:run-program "daemon.py" nil) and I expected daemon.py to be running when it returned. But I checked the process list and it's not running." 18:54:07 aanand` [~user@14.96.143.47] has joined #lisp 18:54:12 ohh 18:54:25 That is, what did you do, what did you expect, what happened instead of what you expected. 18:54:46 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host245-184-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:04 i tried system:run-shell-command from lispworks 18:55:16 with :wait t 18:55:21 and i get a return value of 0 18:55:32 which means the daemon forked properly 18:55:35 but when i run ps -A 18:55:35 -!- ATH500 [~ATH500@64.235.207.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:55:41 i see no python process running 18:55:54 PuffTheMagic: You can write more than half a sentence on one line, also. 18:56:00 ;) 18:56:00 -!- aanand [~user@14.99.4.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:56:17 Bronsa [~bronsa@host166-175-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:56:19 i also tried asdf:run-shell-command 18:56:32 PuffTheMagic: what arguments did you give to those commands? 18:56:43 ouch, I just found the Infrequently Asked Questions on cliki 18:57:06 those seem pretty misleading. some answers are wrong. hm. 18:57:34 (system:run-shell-command "/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/Current/bin/python /Users/ryan/workspace/PyARecordD/PyARecordD.py" :wait nil) 18:57:48 ^^ returns the pid but no Python app is running 18:58:01 same function with :wait t returns 0 with no Python app running 18:58:19 (asdf:run-shell-command starts the python app but the lisp function does not return 18:58:52 im just looking for a way of starting (and keeping alive) a daemon from lisp 19:00:13 PuffTheMagic: are you sure your Python app didn't exit nearly immediately? I have found that to be a common scenario when debugging situations such as this 19:00:14 PuffTheMagic: does the daemon stay alive if you run /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/Current/bin/python /Users/ryan/workspace/PyARecordD/PyARecordD.py in your terminal? 19:00:35 Xach: yes it does stay alive if run from a terminal 19:00:50 <_8david> antifuchs: that's like saying that brucio isn't always entirely right 19:01:06 _8david: true 19:01:10 antifuchs: it's "humor". 19:01:12 _8david: maybe "wrong" means "not funny" in this context. 19:01:19 brucio was *never* wrong, clearly. 19:01:48 hargettp: i dont believe its returning right away, what i believe is happening is the lisp starts a bash process, and runs the python app (which returns) and then the bash process is closed, which kills the python app 19:02:28 PuffTheMagic: could be; that is a reasonable guess. 19:03:01 i was thinking of trying pythononlisp 19:03:13 but i cant seem to get it to do anything beyond some basics 19:03:16 PuffTheMagic: you might want to try (system:run-shell-command '("python" "daemon.py") ...) instead. 19:03:25 hmm 19:03:31 that doesn't involve bash at all. 19:03:34 ok 19:06:07 Xach: i get the same thing when i do that, returns 0 and no python is running :/ 19:06:16 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.49.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:50 ATH500 [~ATH500@70.35.164.111] has joined #lisp 19:07:22 *Xach* has nothing, sorry 19:07:47 np, thanks though 19:07:57 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:11:02 -!- splittist [~John@62-50-225-15.client.stsn.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 19:11:43 PuffTheMagic: IIRC, Python is more than smart enough to figure out where it's libraries when invoked by default...but can you be sure that the process you are starting has the environment you expect? Perhaps you need to make sure that environment variables in your "running" process are what you expect them to be--if not, then perhaps some valuable context is missing from the spawned process, and hence the failure. 19:12:42 PuffTheMagic: for example, I know on SBCL there's an option to specify whether or not to inherit the environment variables of the parent process, or to pass in an explicit set of variables and values...v handy for controlling the child process 19:13:31 beaumonta [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 19:13:43 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont_ 19:13:45 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:19 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 19:16:15 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@212-14-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 19:18:36 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:19:50 -!- tfb [~tfb@94.197.20.144.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:26:08 -!- jdz [~jdz@host108-71-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:26:56 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d011615.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:13 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:30:03 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-3-95.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 19:31:15 -!- Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:37:02 -!- ravic [~ravi@118-93-176-141.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38:03 mega1: congratulations! 19:39:02 oh, yeah, nice stuff mega1! 19:39:38 i vote for putting that news item on the topic line! 19:40:48 prxq: anyone can do that. feel free! 19:40:58 "mega1 p0wns hordes of C++ and Java programmers"? :-) 19:41:12 haha 19:42:13 what did he do? 19:42:37 bfein: came in #1 in the uwaterloo google ai contest 19:42:46 ah 19:42:47 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:42:49 http://ai-contest.com/ 19:44:46 mega1: grats! 19:45:18 luis: that sounds about right! 19:46:18 prxq: though maybe we should emphasize his AI skills, which I imagine were more important than his choice of language :-) 19:47:14 you are right. 19:48:26 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:48:33 -!- prxq changed the topic of #lisp to: Topic for #lisp is: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: mega1 p0wns hordes of C++ and Java programmers using his mad AI skillz (http://ai-contest.com/), ABCL 0.23.1, SBCL 1.0.44, Bordeaux-Threads 0.8.0, CMUCL 20b, SBCL User Survey http://random-state.net/sbcl-survey-2010.html [have you considered /mode #lisp +t] 19:48:40 yeah, grats mega1, thats awesome 19:49:04 nice 19:50:05 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-141-81.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:51:18 homie [~user@xdsl-78-35-163-45.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:56 Is there a way to get a list of all of the symbols/functions that a package exports? 19:52:24 compmstr: you can iterate over them with do-external-symbols and with extended loop. 19:52:32 compmstr: getting a list is fairly easy from those. 19:52:33 (loop for symbol being the external-symbol in package collect symbol) 19:52:52 Thank you 19:55:20 TeMPOraL [~user@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 20:02:41 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:02:56 -!- SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:18 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:03:36 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has joined #lisp 20:08:43 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:09:18 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:10:48 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 20:13:15 -!- horze [~kim@c-601172d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: horze] 20:13:15 powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-3-95.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:26 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:14:46 is there somewhere else besides the .lisp files folder that where SBCL would place .fasl files 20:15:15 I have delete all the fasl files associated with my project but the old ones seem to be getting picked up form somewhere 20:15:16 Guthur: If you use a recent sbcl with ASDF2 and are loading systems with asdf, they will go in a different directory. 20:15:24 Xach, ah 20:15:27 Guthur: on unix, it is in ~/.cache/common-lisp/ 20:15:49 dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:54 is there a quick way to clear that 20:16:02 Guthur: "rm -rf" can be quick 20:16:28 hehe I was kind of hoping for something from the REPL 20:16:40 not a biggy 20:17:02 (sb-ext:run-shell-command "rm" (list "-rf" ...)) 20:17:24 You can also disable that fasl segregation entirely 20:17:32 (asdf:disable-output-translations) iirc 20:18:59 you can cd to $HOME and run find . -name \*.fasl \! -path ./local/\* -print -delete 20:19:00 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:19:06 -!- drdo [~user@194.210.228.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:19:19 where the files in ./local/* are being spared 20:20:29 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@wifi-wpa.agh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:22:07 -!- merijn [~merijn@inconsistent.nl] has left #lisp 20:32:44 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 20:33:01 prokos [~prokos@173.200.233.195] has joined #lisp 20:33:33 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:33:51 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.151.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:35:23 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.52.185] has joined #lisp 20:35:55 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-189.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:36:09 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-189.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:36:23 cheers prxq and Xach 20:36:28 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:36:30 is this caching a new thing? 20:36:40 Guthur: it's new with ASDF2. 20:36:47 I don't like it 20:37:13 Guthur: There's a command to turn it off. 20:37:18 fasls can get stale and sometimes it is nice to have explicit control 20:37:19 oh 20:37:55 Guthur: you can get stale fasls in other ways if there is no caching 20:38:02 There are good parts and bad parts 20:38:10 Guthur: i didn't like it at the beginning, but got used to it and like it now. I have not needed to delete a fasl by hand since ages. 20:38:30 usually, you just recompile the file and that 20:38:34 's it. 20:38:37 yeah but that's what I mean, when it was only storing the fasl with the .lisp file it was easy to remedy 20:38:43 Huh it's much nicer because you can just rm -rf a directory rather than having to use find 20:39:07 tcr, But I didn't want to get rid of all the fasls 20:39:20 i now have to rebuild my world 20:39:24 Why not? Your state is borked, I wouldn't trust anything else 20:39:55 Some stuff is pretty static, I'm assuming it was fine 20:39:57 tcr: it's annoying to have to rm ~/.cache/common-lisp/home/user/src/projects/project-i-want-to-clear/ 20:40:00 You can easily just remove the subdirectory belonging to a specific system 20:40:20 that's even shorter than reality, i forgot /sbcl-1.0.44-amd64/ 20:40:52 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:34 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 20:41:43 To each his own. I find it convenient not to have to remember an implementation's fasl file ending 20:42:27 There are good parts and bad parts. 20:42:31 Xach: you can shorten that using asdf-output-translations.conf 20:42:35 i realize now that I have it turned off :-) 20:42:40 Life's tough 20:43:10 fe[nl]ix: That probably lives in ~/.config/common-lisp/asdf/2010/usr/home/xach/asdf2-config-files.d/. 20:43:39 Xach: no, just ~/.config/common-lisp/ 20:44:19 -!- konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:44:38 f 20:44:41 prxq, how did you turn it off 20:44:41 oops 20:44:47 *prxq* .oO( but where did i turn it off? ) 20:44:56 Guthur: i'm trying to find out 20:45:36 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 20:46:42 the manual says how, but I obviously did not do that. 20:46:48 -!- stdDoubt [~ptiago@a79-169-47-40.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:46:49 (?) 20:47:06 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:24 ok I did not turn it off 20:48:03 the thing is, if you compile with C-c C-k, the fasl will end up outside of the cache. 20:48:33 so that's why I have fasls in the directories. 20:51:45 prxq, yeah that has just occurred to me 20:51:59 an argument against caching 20:51:59 actually it added to my confusion in the beginning 20:54:00 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:57:14 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:57 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:31 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:02:19 anyone else get a undefined variable: CFFI::VAL warning with CFFI 21:04:44 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:06:55 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:07:56 konr [~user@187.106.39.144] has joined #lisp 21:08:22 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:38 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:08:41 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:08:43 j0nii [~j0ni@75-119-251-189.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:43 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255513.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:09:43 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:10:24 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:06 -!- j0nii [~j0ni@75-119-251-189.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:17:40 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.234.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:17:55 hey guys, how would i go about concatenating some strings? according to common lisp cookbook its: (concatenate 'string "this" "that"), idk if this is how it's meant to be but having 'string seems a little chunky? 21:18:15 clhs with-output-to-string 21:18:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm 21:18:43 craiggles: concatenate can produce different kinds of sequences depending on that first argument. 21:18:56 Or (format "Some values: ~A and stuff" "my-value") 21:18:59 craiggles: (defun strcat (&rest strings) (apply #'concatenate 'string strings)), if you just want a string concatenator... 21:19:12 craiggles: if the genericness is too verbose for you, you can write something terser. 21:19:39 no that's fine, just i thought there may be a "better" alternative, thanks. 21:19:42 I mean, (format nil "Some values: ~A and stuff" "my-value") 21:20:04 Xach: thanks for quicklisp 21:20:11 prxq: no problem 21:20:18 can you quickly go over the first argument of format please? 21:20:40 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432703.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:20:46 I mean, i've just been using T because of practical common lisp, but i havent read the explanations as of yet. 21:20:48 craiggles: it designates where the output should go. nil means to a string, which is returned. t means the *standard-output* stream. a stream means use that stream. 21:21:02 oh thank you. 21:21:06 that clears things up 21:21:48 craiggles: serious CL nerds learn how to find and parse things in the hyperspec. http://l1sp.org/cl/format explains what i said with more authority. 21:21:57 -!- Thorn [~Thorn@unaffiliated/thorn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:15 -!- SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:22:20 is the cookbook an alright learning resource? i mean it complies with the standards and whatnot? 21:23:00 craiggles: i haven't looked at it in a while. my impression was that it was pretty decent when it came to standard things. i think its answers for implementation-dependent things like networking might be dated now. 21:23:13 craiggles: do you know PCL? 21:23:21 minion: pcl 21:23:22 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:23:27 yeah I know that. 21:23:38 ive just been using cookbook as a reference. 21:24:00 im just looking ovor the examples in pcl - only have looked up to chapter 4 - 21:24:16 but i really should get around to reading it. 21:24:28 craiggles: There's a whole chapter on FORMAT which almost certainly explains the first argument, and many other things. ;-) 21:24:46 heh awesome. 21:25:12 but yeah, i should read it as ive done nothing with cl so far, just trying out the basics, i havent put together anything. 21:25:21 I think a first argument of T for FORMAT actually designates *terminal-io*, not *standard-output*. A weird gotcha (that usually doesn't matter interactively). 21:25:23 *hargettp* <3 PCL 21:25:24 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.49.6] has joined #lisp 21:25:56 I can't seem to find where in the HyperSpec that's specified, though. I would have thought it would be on the FORMAT page. 21:26:00 pcl says *standard-io* 21:26:01 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:05 standard-something 21:26:16 output 21:26:28 SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has joined #lisp 21:26:36 clhs 22.3 21:26:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 21:26:40 Hexstream: it's there 21:26:43 Hexstream: as far as stream designators go, T designates *terminal-io*. but the first argument to format is not a stream designator. 21:27:17 Oh, so it was the other way around. 21:27:26 Right. 21:27:41 it not the other way around, it's different 21:27:45 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:27:48 All I really remembered was that T didn't mean what it usually means for streams in FORMAT. 21:28:40 Well, I thought T usually meant *standard-output* but meant *terminal-io* in FORMAT, and it was the other way around. 21:28:53 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:29:43 looking at the examples of loop for the syntax seems a little weird to me, i mean for example collect..that doesnt need parents around it so is collect just a keyword for loop. 21:29:57 -!- fogus` [c6970d0f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.151.13.15] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:29:57 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:30:10 craiggles: yep 21:30:19 cheers. 21:30:27 loop process its body according to its own rules 21:30:39 LOOP... has its own way of doing things, to put it mildly. 21:30:46 so yeah, guess it's reading time then i'll have to get around to actually learning the basic syntax and building something.. 21:31:21 clhs loop has a bnf syntax for loop 21:31:24 clhs loop 21:31:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 21:31:25 craiggles: i find that learning LOOP is a valuable way to save yourself time (and lines of code)...although not every1 in the community LOOP is the only way or best to do that :) 21:31:54 *not every1...thinks 21:33:14 ITYM everyone 21:34:22 Seems like a nice time to shamelessly promote my Loopless: http://www.loopless.org/ it lets one do away with LOOP really easily. 21:34:30 stassats: loop is nifty, but I keep forgetting the right incantations. 21:35:08 Well, with a sample size of one it's hard to tell if it will work for people in general, but it did let me get rid of LOOP fully and painlessly. 21:35:57 -!- bojovs [~bojovs@p4173-ipad49hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 21:36:42 Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:45 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.90.1] 21:39:25 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:39:44 vowyer [~vowyer@OL85-74.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 21:40:47 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-043-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:40:54 Hexstream: nice domain name 21:41:51 Thanks. I worked on this pretty seriously so I thought I might as well have a nice domain name. 21:42:07 eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 21:43:47 jdz [~jdz@host197-110-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:44:58 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-218-187.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 21:46:06 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host166-175-dynamic.7-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:49:29 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:52:16 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@OL85-74.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Quit: vowyer] 21:53:03 I like loop 21:56:39 -!- SolarBoom [~Nurlan@85.132.44.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:57:29 I think LOOP is a bad set of tradeoffs. It sacrifices many things like readability, composability with the rest of the language, and many other things to give you "lots of power" you don't actually need in 99%+ of cases. It tries to subsume the rest of the language. It's a walled-garden and you have to rewrite whatever looping construct you were using if you want to use any of its features (such as "for-as-arithmetic", which I li 21:57:49 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:51 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 21:57:53 Hexstream: cut off after "which I li" 21:58:04 which I like ;) That was all. 21:58:20 Hexstream: "were using"? a lot of people simply use loop. 21:58:46 You don't understand what I mean. 21:59:00 I find loop great in theory, but in practice I keep forgetting the right incantation, which is annoying 21:59:52 Oh, maybe you did. But I always tried to use mapcar instead of (loop for element in my-list collect (list element element)), say. 22:00:06 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:00:32 prxq: That's because LOOP is conceptually complex. It's trying to do too much. 22:00:48 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4116.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:29 actually, I find that sometimes I know that loop has some nifty way of doing something, but I just can't be bothered to figure it out yet again. 22:01:50 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:01:52 Hexstream: so, use goto instead? 22:01:54 s/something/something i need right now/ 22:01:56 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:03 No, use Loopless. If you ask me. 22:02:22 Unless you're trying to do something really unconventional. 22:02:30 stassats: it's called tagbody/go 'round here :-) 22:03:01 -!- marijnjh [~user@p5DDB2414.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:03:14 unicode [~user@95.214.70.67] has joined #lisp 22:03:20 Hexstream: have you tried iterate? 22:03:22 But there's just no reason processing of cdr-valued alists, cadr-valued alists and plists shouldn't be unified, for instance. 22:03:40 it's just a matter of decision, if you decide that loop is bad, you use it less 22:03:51 but there is nothing objective about such decision 22:03:52 Yes, I did, and I loved it for a while, because it improved on LOOP in some good ways, for instance by having more parentheses. 22:04:42 But I finally came to the conclusion that the concept itself of a monolithic looping construct is harmful in more or less subtle ways, and unnecessary. 22:05:16 Hexstream: in all fairness, loop is old as the hills, and this kind of discussion too. Have you heard about 'knee-jerk anti loopism'? 22:05:44 Hexstream: harmfull is a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? 22:05:48 the objective reason to use loop is that it's included in the standard and more people are familiar with it 22:05:57 stassats: I think there are some arguments against LOOP that are pretty objective. To name two, 1. LOOP looks like NO other Common Lisp operator, except maybe FORMAT in some ways. And 2. many use cases of LOOP are redundant with other more focussed constructs provided by the standard. 22:06:03 but I like doing (loop for (a b) on my-list by #'cddr when (some-stuff) collect it into new-list and sum it into the-sum finally (values new-list the-sum)) 22:06:06 and i buy that reason, however unidealistic loop for format are 22:06:15 s/for/or/ 22:06:20 *p_l|home* considers the title of the "GOTO considered Harmful" to be one of the more harmful things that happened to Computing Science 22:06:40 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:07:10 *Ralith* considers people who take papers like that at their face value to be the most harmful thing to computing science 22:07:21 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050064196.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:07:36 prxq: I don't see how it's a "knee-jerk" reaction if I've been thinking about this intensely over many months and actually came up with a viable alternative (loopless). 22:08:12 Hexstream: I've always seen loop as an example of macrology. I also see it as a useful tool in a lot of situations. Also like iterate, do, ... 22:08:32 Hexstream: i am sad that you spent your time on this issue 22:08:41 stassats: I fully acknowledge the relevance of the "LOOP is part of the standard and everyone knows it" argument. But I hope we can throw it in the garbage bin within 15 years or something. 22:09:04 Hexstream: sorry. I meant that this discussion was already old in 1993, which is, like, the early pleistocene or something. 22:09:06 because i don't think that LOOP is what holding lisp back 22:09:17 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:09:36 stassats: No, not really, indeed. But I don't think it's helping it either. 22:09:53 stassats: actually, loop is arguably the most conventional lisp construct. It almost looks like cobol. 22:10:13 it would be nice if it had a 'please' keyword 22:10:16 :-) 22:10:20 i miss loop in other languages 22:10:22 Ralith: I refered to the title, because most of the people I meet that are scared of GOTO don't know neither the context, nor the contents of said paper. But they usually heard the title :D 22:10:30 prxq: perhaps "Would you kindly..." instead? 22:10:38 araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has joined #lisp 22:10:38 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.38.50.25] has quit [Changing host] 22:10:38 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 22:10:47 sykopomp: that would so :-) 22:10:53 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:10:57 prxq: so that it will look more like intercal? 22:10:57 s/so/do/ 22:11:02 aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:11:39 stassats: oh that was from intercal? 22:11:45 ;) 22:11:59 ejohnson: LOOP is a great example of macrology indeed. But as far as I'm concerned, what it says is something like: "Look the super awesome things you can do with macrology and how things can really go wrong with design. With great power comes great responsibility." 22:12:09 Gotta eat, later. 22:12:21 yes, intercal also has "come from" instead of goto, because, you know, goto is considered harmful 22:13:06 nowadays "come from" is called aspect oriented programming. At least, that's what I understood. 22:13:26 but i'm just a humble number cruncher 22:13:38 Hexstream: Congratulations, you just rose from newbie to rookie. To ascertain the next level, you ony have to give up trying to fix the language. 22:13:39 isn't aspect-oriented programming just a fancy name for method combination? 22:14:20 Everyone goes through the same process, most people get through it (the most notorious exception being PG) 22:14:31 s/through/past/2 22:14:53 tcr: and he -still- only really wrote a thin set of macros and functions over what Racket already does :\ 22:15:20 sykopomp: can you elaborate? 22:15:30 "I know. The language will be better if I use 'mac' instead of 'defmacro'!" 22:15:43 "Also " 22:16:02 sykopomp: oh you mean Hexstream 22:16:03 Arc looks more like PG's Favorite Utility Library than an actual language of its own. 22:16:09 sykopomp: well, that's why lisp is so great actually, because you can go bonkers very easily with it 22:16:47 p_l|home: exactly! 22:17:03 stassats: well, sure, 'but it's still lisp'. 22:17:19 I heard Qi will target newlisp 22:17:28 prxq: is that a joke? 22:17:32 prxq: rotflk 22:17:34 *rotfl 22:17:36 sykopomp: and i'm still a monkey 22:17:50 it's in the post asking for support. I read it twice 22:18:15 I'm sure it is a joke, but it is there. 22:19:07 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-37-13.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:19:16 -!- unicode [~user@95.214.70.67] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:19:30 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-37-13.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:21:23 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:21:43 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:36 Joreji [~thomas@85-065.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:22:40 https://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/11c1ca7327502cde/47015b478130e457?lnk=gst&q=Qi+pledge#47015b478130e457 22:22:50 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-3-95.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 22:24:44 -!- jweiss [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:24:57 -!- sellout [~greg@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 22:24:59 Hexstream: Like others have said this is a very old debate with no real substance, since it's all syntactic aesthetics that is being "argued". I'm glad that you backed up your feelings with loopless. 22:30:32 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:30:56 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu219.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:31:02 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:09 -!- aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has quit [Quit: be free!] 22:32:27 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:32:36 -!- godless_ is now known as Quetzalcoatl_ 22:33:15 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 22:35:57 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:41 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:31 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-218-187.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:40:17 powerje [~powerj@75.49.3.95] has joined #lisp 22:40:30 Yes, it is a very old debate, I know and acknowledge that. The thing is, the situation has pretty much stagnated for the last 20 years or something in that respect. The only thing I can think of that was built as an alternative to LOOP in the meantime is ITERATE... 22:40:53 Hexstream: what do you think of iterate? 22:41:10 Hexstream: because it's the only thing that got used by enough projects to not disappear 22:41:15 Which was cast in the same mold as LOOP (monolithic "all-powerful" looping construct) and so shares all of its inherent flaws at the core of its design. 22:41:53 (05:03:49 PM) Hexstream: Yes, I did, and I loved it for a while, because it improved on LOOP in some good ways, for instance by having more parentheses. 22:41:53 (05:04:38 PM) Hexstream: But I finally came to the conclusion that the concept itself of a monolithic looping construct is harmful in more or less subtle ways, and unnecessary. 22:42:10 (About iterate. You asked earlier if I had tried it.) 22:42:35 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-37-13.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42:59 also, iterate isn't exactly monolithic 22:43:10 Hexstream: i missed that 22:43:23 *stassats* imagines Hexstream doing a double-blind study on mice, by hooking an EEG to their brains and showing them various iteration mechanism 22:43:40 As far as I know, Loopless is the first alternative to LOOP that throws away its basic design tenets entirely and just conservatively extends Common Lisp a bit so that any perceived need for it is removed. And it's easy to learn and use ;P 22:44:10 but you are biased! 22:44:12 The loop discussions seem to becoming more frequent 22:44:15 What I mean by monolithic is that you have to choose it as your looping construct if you want to use any of its features. 22:44:18 Hexstream: Loopless looks like the sort of thing that would benefit from IPS! 22:44:19 minion: loopless? 22:44:20 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``loopless''. 22:44:24 maybe this is a sign that everything else is right with CL 22:44:40 Hexstream: well, there is TAGBODY, and series, and well, DO. 22:44:49 Guthur: probably 22:45:05 stassats: Exactly. That is why I'd like some people to actually try it and see if it works or not for them. 22:45:19 Guthur: no, that means that LOOP is what holding lisp back 22:45:24 though ASDF2 caching was a nice distraction 22:45:27 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-141-17.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:45:48 what is holding lisp back is the parentheses. 22:46:04 way too many of them, and for some reason we can't get rid of them. 22:46:26 parentheses is like the skin in a hot air balloon, without them CL will sink 22:46:29 so, they are two camps of people, one says that lisp has too much parentheses, and others say it has not enough parentheses (in LOOP) 22:46:32 in/on 22:46:39 prxq: Feel free to try any of the failed attempts at Lisp-without-parentheses languages. 22:46:43 s/they/there/ 22:47:20 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 22:47:21 Hexstream: I think I'll rather keep my nice stack of parentheses, thank you. 22:47:35 and what about reader macros, are they lispy enough? 22:47:49 Guthur: The discussions about LOOP are more frequent recently in part because a viable replacement (IMHO) has finally been proposed. In the past, there was much whining but no real solutions so it was a bit of a stalemate. 22:48:05 prxq: That is a fine attitude! 22:48:14 Hexstream, Iterate? 22:48:20 Hexstream: maybe you are overstating your case. 22:48:37 prxq: There's only one way to know for sure, isn't it? 22:49:30 I'm dying to get actual feedback on Loopless besides things like: "Oh, I'm so sad you spent 2 weeks full-time on this for nothing cuz LOOP is like, perfect, dude". 22:49:34 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:49:47 Hexstream: so, how do i iterate over a list and over a sequence simultaneously? 22:50:08 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-37-13.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:10 Guthur: Iterate: Use to love it back when I thought a monolithic looping construct was necessary, but no more of that nonsense for me. 22:50:20 stassats: (let (#'(lambda () (print "Great success"))) (funcall function)) :D 22:50:34 MAP? 22:51:01 what if I want to loop over destructured portions of a list? 22:51:22 that thing with lisp being held back by the parentheses is only half a joke. Many people find them utterly disgusting. Unfortunately, there's no way around that, for obvious reasons. 22:51:46 Well, Loopless has MAPCAR-like function for alists (both types) and plists. Destructuring is overwhelmingly frequently used for that. 22:51:47 Hexstream: well, what if the list is a plist? 22:52:18 Then use MAP and DESTRUCTURING-BIND. 22:52:20 (loop for (a b c . rest) on my-list by #'cdddr if rest collect (+ a b c) else collect (* a b c)) 22:52:24 how about a C-like FOR macro? 22:52:32 Hexstream: how exactly? 22:52:53 How often do you iterate over a sequence and a plist simultaneously?? It happens, but it's not quite as frequent as a ton of other scenarios. 22:53:22 stassats: Oh, yeah, lack of attention on this, my answer didn't make sense. 22:53:28 Let me think... 22:53:51 add a (C-DO (sumthin) WHILE (condition)) and we are done. 22:53:53 Hexstream: what would the above loop look like with loopless? 22:54:11 stassats + bfein, I'm processing your orders right now. 22:54:22 quick, ddos! 22:54:28 Hehe. 22:54:33 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:46 Ok, so I guess I have to say some things right now. 22:54:58 actually. One thing that is hard to do with loop is to find the position of the maximum. 22:55:06 prxq, Personal taste I suppose with parenthesis 22:55:10 Of a sequence of numbers, for example. 22:55:12 Loopless is not optimized to help you deal with far-fetched examples of LOOP usage that never or very rarely occur in actual code. 22:55:24 how about (loop repeat 10 for i in list ...)? making a counter and returning earlier? 22:55:38 I personally find semi-colons and overly strict symbol naming conventions very annoying 22:55:51 Hexstream: now you really sound like you want to sell something 22:55:51 (loop for item in list with max = 0 when (> item max) (setf max item) finally (return max)) 22:55:55 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1242432703.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:56:07 Guthur: don't worry. I'm a card carrying lisp fan 22:56:08 conventions/rules 22:56:20 Coming up with a contrived example that Loopless doesn't handle particularly well is not so hard. But I guarantee you you'll very, very rarely find yourself writing such a LOOP in code. 22:56:23 ^^ if list can have negatives, set max to nil first and add a bit of logic 22:56:26 bfein: i believe that's called (loop for item in list maximize item) 22:56:31 or that :) 22:56:32 hehe 22:56:46 forgot loop had that lol 22:56:58 I think the loops I write these days are almost exclusively number-generation loops. 22:57:11 thought it doesn't work if you want to maximize by some key, which is sad 22:57:28 though 22:57:29 The "maximize" stuff is a blind spot in Loopless, I never used this stuff so Loopless has no support for it. My apologies. However I'm positive adding support for that will be quite easy. 22:57:58 (reduce #'max list)? 22:58:19 will you add features until it becomes monolithic and all-powerful? 22:58:48 Hexstream: I've actually used (or at least seen, it was years ago so I don't remember very well), a (loop for (a b c . rest) on list ) 22:58:52 No, that would violate pretty much every design tenet of Loopless. 22:59:03 Hexstream: now make that work on a hashtable! 22:59:11 MAPHASH. 22:59:24 Hexstream: with maximizing, i mean 22:59:49 Use MAPHASH and LET and SET MAX. 22:59:55 SETF, I mean. 23:00:02 i actually wanted the POSITION of the maximum. Or the argument to the function to be maximized. 23:00:51 -!- yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 23:00:55 something like (loop for x across vec argmax-of (foo x)) 23:01:12 that would return the x for which (foo x) was the largest 23:01:45 bfein: (docons (lambda (?) (destructuring-bind (a b c &rest rest) ? )) list) 23:01:52 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:19 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 23:02:29 prxq: Processing your request... 23:02:46 how long it will be until the number of your iterating constructs will be incomprehensible? 23:02:51 prxq: I recently wrote this function: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117279 23:03:28 Though I wish there was a way to do it in LOOP directly. ;-) 23:04:11 gigamonkey: right. It is probably more reasonably to simply wrap a let around a much simpler loop. 23:04:32 s/reasonably/reasonable/ 23:04:51 which is what I usually do :-) 23:05:10 _mo_ [~mo@net-93-147-150-133.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 23:05:28 stassats: So far the number is RIDICULOUSLY small. It fits on a really small page: http://www.loopless.org/doc/Quick-Reference.html#Quick-Reference 23:06:00 add that to existing ones in CL 23:06:05 <_mo_> i'm currently using VIM to code lisp, does anyone have a decent way to do code folding in VIM? 23:06:06 I don't think many more will be necessary. In any case, I think it's safe to say it will always be a drop in the bucket compared to LOOP. 23:06:19 _mo_: do you use slimv? 23:06:26 and compare weather it's more easy to comprehend than loop 23:06:30 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:06:43 It is. 23:07:02 I love it when functions/macros use * to mean something random and completely unpredictable based on naming. 23:07:06 LOOP only looks better to you because you use it all the time. 23:07:29 Hexstream: can i use your argument? 23:07:38 sykopomp: It's all documented why: http://www.loopless.org/doc/Star-Suffix.html#Star-Suffix 23:07:40 Hexstream: that's thin ice :-) 23:08:27 The thing about Loopless is that each utility is really very simple and can composed with the rest of the language seemlessly, as it should be. 23:08:53 goto is simple to, so what? 23:09:03 too, damn, i can't type tonight 23:09:05 Hexstream: I fear you are on the hard road to illumination. 23:09:20 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7576ad.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:24 stassats: How would you write an idiomatic loop to accumulate values from one list into 3 different lists based on 3 different types and then return those lists as 3 values? 23:09:54 prxq: I, too, have always looked forward to a fully-illuminated Lisp book. AMOP's cover just wasn't enough for me. 23:10:06 I'll settle for illuminated library docs, though. 23:10:29 Hexstream: i wouldn't 23:10:30 Loopless doesn't fuck with the language like unrestricted goto tends to. 23:11:29 <_mo_> prxq, nope, using slime.vim, found here http://github.com/jpalardy/dotfiles/raw/master/vim/plugin/slime.vim 23:11:29 sykopomp: you were expecting a LED attached to it? 23:12:02 stassats: Ok, but just picture yourself writing "nice" IF and ELSE IF in loop syntax instead of being able to just use ETYPECASE... (Yeah, iterate does away with that problem, but it still illustrates some of the pitfalls of having a peculiar syntax like that) 23:12:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-117-124.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12:16 stassats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminated_manuscript 23:12:31 but yes, LEDs are acceptable substitutes. 23:12:42 sykopomp: how prosaic 23:13:07 you can even do animations with LEDs 23:13:24 stassats: how about interactive paren matching? 23:13:33 prxq: What illumination? "LOOP doesn't actually suffer from the inherent problems it suffers from"? 23:13:34 follow the code in the book with your finger, and it matches the parens while you read. 23:13:36 Hexstream: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117280 23:13:38 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:39 _mo_: i have no idea how to do code folding in vim. I don't even do it in emacs. Is that very important? 23:14:08 Hexstream: i'm sorry, but loop is not a panacea, if it doesn't handle some things nicely doesn't mean i should dismiss it entirely 23:14:41 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:49 sykopomp: i'm envisioning a blinking led of a different color for each pair of parenthesis 23:14:52 anonymouse89 [~brian@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:55 stassats: You should dismiss LOOP (though I don't think you will), but not for that reason, indeed. 23:15:18 <_mo_> prxq, not really, i think it's a great feature but certainly not one that's "essential". 23:15:21 then you can use it as a christmas tree 23:15:24 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:25 -!- dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 23:15:26 Hexstream: no. Basically "Loops warts don't matter nearly enough". 23:15:32 dcrawford [~dcrawford@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:04 Hexstream: "because Hexstream told me so" isn't a good reason either 23:16:10 Hexstream: I don't understand why you feel so strongly about loop 23:16:38 *sykopomp* doesn't see how replacing LOOP with a bunch of oddly-named functions fixes any problems. 23:16:51 oh, and what sykopomp says, too. 23:16:59 gigamonkey: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117280#1 23:17:27 Now... Replacing FORMAT with a style that emphasizes using printing functions on streams. *That* I can support. 23:17:29 hey, hey, what about series? 23:17:45 sykopomp: OUT? 23:17:49 stassats: no. 23:18:00 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:00 drdo [~user@194.210.228.105] has joined #lisp 23:18:02 OUT is to FORMAT what ITERATE is to LOOP. 23:18:06 sykopomp: They're not all that oddly-named. They just reuse naming conventions for the most part. 23:18:09 Same crap, more parentheses. Big whoop. 23:18:27 Wanna try to guess what MAPALIST does?... 23:18:28 *stassats* can't never remember what mapcon and mapcan are doing 23:18:35 ^ 23:18:56 -!- _mo_ [~mo@net-93-147-150-133.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:18:56 mapcon sounds like some kind of shady business. 23:19:21 stassats: I had that problem when I used LOOP all the time ;P It's easy, MAPCAN nconcs over CARs of lists while MAPCON nconcs over the conses of the list themselves. 23:19:25 prxq: Or a cartography conference. 23:19:56 and why mapc and mapl are named that way, "hey, let's remove some letters, that way it'll be intuitive that it doesn't collect a new list" 23:20:07 stassats: Series is pretty big and I wouldn't call it highly conservative... 23:21:22 I agree that these names are a bit suboptimal, but that doesn't matter in practice. You just know what they mean and that's that. 23:21:50 -!- eugu [~Miranda@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: eugu] 23:21:56 Besides, personally I usually end up using DOLIST instead of MAPC. 23:22:07 Hexstream: now we have arrived at what matters in practice. You are close to stalling speed! 23:22:27 prxq: I don't understand what that means. 23:22:38 Hexstream: Very soon, you will be matching parentheses with multicolor LEDs. 23:22:48 ?.... 23:23:03 Hexstream: I still don't understand why loop's strangeness matters so much to you. 23:23:08 oh that reminds me 23:23:23 what is the emacs thing for showing matching parenthesis 23:23:29 prxq: It's out of place, that is all. It's an inconvenient mistake from the past. 23:23:32 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 23:23:43 like lisppaste 23:23:47 Guthur: show-paren-mode 23:23:50 Hexstream: but why is it important? 23:23:54 not like lisppaste 23:23:58 There's no need to do visual paren matching, so no, I won't be matching parentheses with multicolor LEDs, whatever that means. 23:24:06 Hexstream: Don't you like ITERATE? 23:24:17 drdo: Trolling? ;P 23:24:24 not trolling! 23:24:37 i was expecting Dr. Do to advocated DO 23:24:38 ITERATE was cast in the same mold as LOOP, therefore it shares all the same inherent problems. 23:24:46 Foremost, that it's monolithic. 23:24:48 cheers stassats 23:24:52 but it has nice hash table iteration. 23:25:06 clhs maphash 23:25:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_maphas.htm 23:25:07 Hexstream: Ahmm, no, one of the points of having iterate is that it's extensible 23:25:28 drdo: so is MIT LOOP. 23:25:29 Being extensible is only a feature because it's monolithic in the first place. 23:25:45 what is that supposed to mean? 23:25:59 If you just have a small collection of really simple utilities that you can compose with the rest of the language, you don't need so-called "extensibility" as a feature. 23:26:45 So i guess you think macros are useless as well? 23:26:49 and "wrong" 23:26:54 Hexstream: how do you iterate over different data structures in parallel, using LOOPLESS? 23:26:57 maybe because iterations don't compose well if you want both expressiveness and efficiency? 23:27:30 sykopomp: you can always convert everything to lists and then hit them with a MAP 23:27:32 drdo: I'm a crazy fanatic of DSL's, I write new ones all the time. You might deduce what I think about macros from that. 23:27:37 Hexstream: arguably, prog is the most general and extensible of the looping constructs. 23:27:52 stassats: avoiding that is the only other reason I can think of to use LOOP :) 23:27:59 it doesn't even loop by default 23:28:28 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:31 hey, what about Y combinator? 23:28:46 right, what about that? 23:28:47 stassats: not possible in CL, no? 23:29:08 sykopomp: That happens not that often, and you can usually come up with a decent solution. 23:29:14 and, Hexstream: why are loop's shortcommings so important again? 23:29:46 prxq: well, you can iterate with, and it's simple 23:30:04 "simple"? hahaha. 23:30:19 I think it's been too much time since you were a newbie struggling to learn LOOP. 23:30:39 Hexstream: sure, you only need LAMBDA 23:31:25 I don't remember ever finding LOOP hard to read. Writing advanced looping constructs with it takes some experience, but most loops are pretty straightforward and quite readable. 23:31:27 prxq: One of the big problems with LOOP is that it's so very redundant with the rest of the language. 23:31:30 Hexstream: sometime ago i was a newbie struggling to learn Lisp 23:31:55 Hexstream: and..? Does that cause disease? 23:31:58 And LOOP wasn't the easiest thing to get started with, let's bet. 23:32:15 prxq: Yes. It's a stylistic nightmare. 23:32:19 Hexstream: when I was a newbie, I learned loop pretty quick... read the first X chapters of PCL (all the non-example stuff), read the hyperspec on loop, good to go... 23:32:28 Hexstream: does it matter? 23:32:29 I liked it then, I like it now 23:32:36 Hexstream: 'fixing' loop strikes me as a very low-value optimization. 23:33:17 loop has a very simple idea, once you get it, it's a matter of memorizing a couple of different names 23:33:19 Hexstream: I think you're going to have to write a bunch of good code using Loopless and show the world how awesome itworks out. 23:33:32 Who's "fixing" LOOP? Not me. LOOP is unfixable. If you were to "fix" it, you'd end up with something that has absolutely nothing to do with LOOP. 23:34:09 i'd fix the loop by throwing out "englishy" stuff, like ing variants 23:34:14 gigamonkey: I already did write the code, now all I need to to clean it up and comprehensively document it all, and add features and fix bugs and stuff. 23:34:32 Not the Loopless code. Code that incidentally uses Loopless and does great stuff. 23:34:46 I know, that's what I'm saying. 23:34:46 Hexstream: do you have any significant applications that uses loopless? That'd be interesting to see. 23:34:52 heh. I will not buy this iteration construct. It is scratched. 23:35:00 perhaps comparisons with their LOOP counterparts. 23:35:19 antifuchs: scratched? :D 23:35:43 Loopless just happens to have zero dependencies and all my libraries depend on it. And when I really clean up and comprehensively document one of my projects, I want to do it for the transitive closure of its dependencies. So it makes sense that Loopless is the first library I really "finished". 23:35:45 *antifuchs* looks confused 23:35:54 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@204.51.92.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:36:02 I will not buy this tobacconists. It is scratched. 23:36:27 mitre [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:33 my hovercraft is full of loops 23:37:02 drop your parens, sir william! I can not wait 'til load time! 23:37:09 hahaha 23:37:52 If you guys have really complex LOOPs in actual code that you believe Loopless can't handle, please send them my way. 23:38:18 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:43 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-190-198-31.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:45 i also would like collect-without-duplicates thingy 23:39:01 stassats, do you have a hovercraft 23:39:04 Hexstream: (loop for i from 1 for x in list for x across array ..)? 23:39:27 Guthur: it is no more 23:39:31 stassats: how about collect-without-triplicates-according-to? 23:39:48 antifuchs: Such a good sketch! 23:39:51 + for other-val = (some-func) (at the same time) 23:40:11 model hovercrafts are easy to build 23:40:16 sykopomp, what will x be in that loop 23:40:16 the elements of array? 23:40:25 Guthur: I mean x and y, sorry. 23:40:36 sykopomp: Easy, let me type it out... 23:40:36 for x in list for y in array 23:40:45 Hexstream: in parallel? 23:40:55 Well, MAP, simply. 23:41:05 And FOR* for the x. 23:41:07 for x in list for y in hash-table 23:41:08 Trivial. 23:41:18 without generating a list for the i? 23:41:23 Yeah. 23:41:23 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.93.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:41:25 You bet. 23:41:27 great 23:41:36 Man, I want a Lisp that keeps all code in a database with metadata including automatically maintained dependency data. 23:42:21 *Xach* winks, makes sign of the Q 23:42:47 I mean at the granularity of functions. 23:42:49 and i want loop for ni lisp, to iterate backwards 23:42:56 s/lisp/list/ 23:42:59 *Xach* winks harder 23:43:01 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.67.220] has joined #lisp 23:43:02 gigamonkey: Smalltalk? 23:43:12 Klatllams 23:43:14 *gigamonkey* winks back hopefully! 23:43:30 sykopomp: yeah, but not Smalltalk. 23:43:41 sykopomp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117280#2 23:43:41 Hexstream: can your loopless things iterate backwards? 23:43:42 you certainly need parallel iteration, I've never realized how much I take that for granted until now 23:43:56 stassats: (moonmap* ...) 23:44:25 stassats: No. Haven't considered it. But LOOP doesn't support that either, eh?... You could just use REVERSE... 23:44:48 Hexstream: well, you're trying to emulate loop, are you? 23:44:48 I have a funky looping construct! Wait a sec... 23:44:55 Hexstream: aha! 23:46:14 konr` [~user@187.106.39.144] has joined #lisp 23:46:20 stassats: Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that I want to cover 95%+ of usual "use-cases" for LOOP, no in the sense that my solutions have about nothing to do with LOOP approaches. 23:46:39 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:46:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117279 23:47:16 *gigamonkey* enjoys list, set, and dictionary comprehensions in Python. 23:47:26 prxq: that's not yours 23:47:39 Of course in Python I've already given up on efficiency. 23:47:46 (incf prxq 2) 23:48:02 naryl [~lorax@sabazios.xcp.kiev.ua] has joined #lisp 23:48:11 sykopomp: What do you think of FOR*? 23:48:17 stassats: arr, shit 23:48:18 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:32 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.174.214] has joined #lisp 23:48:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117281 23:49:01 I can't find where to get texticl. Is it completely dead? All links on cl-uesr.net are broken. 23:49:22 it has a strange name 23:49:26 gigamonkey: have you seen INCF-CL lib? Also, there are always reader macro :D 23:49:32 texticl? 23:49:33 That's not the point :D 23:49:39 prxq: yes 23:49:48 textile markup library 23:49:52 p_l|home: I looked at it a bit. 23:50:52 But I guess I didn't care enough to really try it in any seriousness. 23:51:01 prxq: Eh. How often would you need to nest the same looping construct enough times that using this would be a win? 23:51:11 Part of the thing in Python is the way comprehensions and generators are integrated with the built in for loop. 23:51:24 is incf-cl to cl like c++ to c? 23:51:44 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@212-14-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:51:45 like, it makes cl object oriented? 23:51:59 and incomprehensible 23:52:17 stassats: no, it's only a play on the name 23:52:18 Isn't CL already "object-oriented"? Though that's a loaded, warped term these days. 23:52:44 Hexstream: what isn't a loaded term these days? 23:52:48 Hexstream: actually, I used to write code in an application domain where this kind of thing happened all the time. 23:52:54 *p_l|home* recalls the wonderful world of purely functional CPP 23:52:58 stassats: and unparsable? 23:53:09 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117282 23:53:21 sykopomp: no worries, it already isn't 23:55:13 why is everybody picking on loop? 23:55:17 prxq: Ok then. It reminded me of WITH-NESTING, which for a long time I dreamed of, and then when I finally found it I realized I never come across situations where it would improve anything. 23:55:33 Fade: I'm not sure everone is. Hexstream is and everyone else is picking on him. 23:55:35 Fade: Not everybody, just me, basically, it seems. 23:55:46 okay 23:55:51 Hexstream: one word: wavelets. LOTS of indices. 23:56:00 I also like the comprehensions in python. 23:57:28 Or should i just stick with cl-markdown? gigamonkey markup looks nice too but it's not too popular outside Lisp crowd. 23:57:40 I didn't think there would be so many LOOP apologists ;P 23:57:43 if you're used to set theoretic notations 23:58:10 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:58:12 naryl: I'm not even sure it's popular with the Lisp crowd. 23:58:13 I can't help but wonder if perhaps Hextream is trolling us. 23:58:22 However its toolchain is getting better all the time. 23:58:22 Or at least, that the consensus would be something like: "Yeah, LOOP sucks but it's bearable." 23:58:23 nice rhetoric, bubba. 23:58:33 Hexstream: it's a kind of religion really. If you need arguments, you don't belong. 23:59:20 Hexstream: seriously though, it would be more like, it sucks slightly. 23:59:31 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:59:35 Fade: I'm unmasked! You figured out that I spent 2 weeks making Loopless viable by cleaning it up and documenting it comprehensively just so that I could troll! 23:59:37 when i first got to lisp loop kind of dropped me on my head for awhile, but now I have stockholm syndrome, and everything is fine. 23:59:56 naryl: for instance I'm just polishing off a Markup based prose-diff tool that doesn't suck the way line-based diffs for for diffing text. 23:59:58 I applaud you for releasing documented code. 23:59:58 hey, there totally should be an APL macro which lets you embed APL code