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Much easier to write modifier macros that way 01:59:44 -!- cipher [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:00:24 Quadrescence: I did several times 02:02:33 Quadrescence: One use I can remember of was to implement globally defined but thread-local variables 02:02:37 cipher [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:56 hm 02:03:43 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:03:50 -!- cipher__ [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:05:03 tcr1: can you tell me what kind of object progv is without looking 02:06:19 it's a special operator 02:06:25 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:06:45 tcr1: did you look it up 02:06:50 MasonSwanson [~Mason@184.164.38.27] has joined #lisp 02:06:59 uhm no 02:07:07 nice work 02:07:20 there are more subtle aspects in CL than that 02:08:59 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-58-137.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 02:09:05 hello? 02:09:13 I need a Pure lisp implementation 02:09:22 not common lisp 02:09:25 MasonSwanson: whaat is a pure lisp? 02:09:45 it would be able to produce machine code 02:10:01 you know just basic support for data structures 02:10:05 Like all the CL implementations (apart from abcl). 02:10:07 aka scheme 02:10:09 no 02:10:13 not like scheme 02:10:18 like machine lisp[ 02:10:26 what is that supposed to mean 02:10:39 or Movitz 02:10:47 http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ 02:11:08 MasonSwanson: all the CL implementations generate machine code! 02:11:19 Lisp Machine Lisp 02:11:31 (apart from abcl, which generates JVM, and clisp without the JIT compiler, which may not be ready for production). 02:11:43 ok then it would be like Common LISP 02:12:00 only it makes machine code for an x86 CPU architecture 02:12:09 and it would be very minimalist 02:12:23 preferably written in something other than LISP 02:12:25 -!- leifw [~user@ool-18bfe51c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:12:42 ecl is written mostly in C. 02:12:46 so it could be compiled with and existing LISP installation 02:12:53 but I can get ecl to compile 02:13:07 at least not on my windows computer 02:13:12 On the contrary, if it's written in something else than Lisp, then you cannot compile it with an existing Lisp. 02:13:22 it works fine when compiled with gcc 02:13:22 MasonSwanson: you are quite inconsistent... 02:13:37 Can you or can't you compilel ecl on MS-Windows? 02:13:37 I meant without an existing implementation 02:13:55 gcc on ubuntu linux 02:14:03 mingw on windows 02:14:11 second doesn't work as is 02:14:14 ecl is written in C, you don't need an existing CL implemenation to compile it. 02:14:21 didn't find any patches 02:14:23 ok 02:14:28 that's is what I need 02:14:40 but it generates c code correct? 02:15:01 Possibly. I know that it relies on a C compiler to generate the native code it generates. 02:15:26 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:15:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-207-117.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:15:40 I can't use gcc 02:15:45 Why not? 02:15:46 or visual studio 02:15:52 licenses 02:16:07 However, you seem to have strange critera. Why don't you want to use a Lisp written in Lisp? 02:16:26 They're nicer and eaasier to compile, since you don't have to rely on an external C compiler. 02:16:28 I can't write an operating system in visual studio at all or I will be prosecuted by microsoft 02:16:43 and if I use gcc I have to license my code under the gpl 02:16:52 This is false. 02:17:09 very false 02:17:13 Linux is not GPL. 02:17:13 is trhere a public domain LISP implementation that is written in assembly? 02:17:18 no 02:17:21 but grub is 02:17:25 as is ubuntu 02:17:32 and red hat 02:17:35 and fedora 02:17:44 and puppy-linux 02:17:48 slackware 02:17:48 MasonSwanson: Just write one. 02:17:49 ubuntu, redhat, fedora cannot be GPL, because they include programs that are not GPL. 02:17:51 slax 02:17:55 -!- Craig` [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:17:58 MasonSwanson: you keep being totally incoherent. 02:18:12 incoherent?you can't understand me? 02:18:12 Perhaps you should have a good night sleep, and come back with clearer ideas. 02:18:19 im not drunk 02:18:21 look 02:18:22 You keep saying things that are wrong. 02:18:28 *caelan* calls troll 02:18:36 I want the lisp to run without an operating system 02:18:47 MasonSwanson: You're like the best troll ever. Why on earth would the source licence for a compiler matter if you just are going to use it for compiling? 02:19:00 idk ask microsoft 02:19:01 MasonSwanson: Just write one. 02:19:05 ok 02:19:08 ok ok ok 02:19:12 lol sorry folks 02:19:24 have a good night I gotta get back to work 02:19:33 MasonSwanson: for this, you can indeed use Movitz, which is exactly that, or perhaps accept a lisp running on just a kernel, and have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html ; the saame can be done with any lisp implemenntation. 02:19:48 im gonna use Movitz 02:19:51 thanks 02:19:56 -!- MasonSwanson [~Mason@184.164.38.27] has left #lisp 02:20:02 i want a lisp that runs on happy 02:20:46 i'm actually working on what's basically a lisp kernel 02:22:15 *JuanDaugherty* endorses the happy platform. 02:23:20 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:35 -!- Vivitron [ad4c080a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.76.8.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:24:47 "the migration to the happy platform from the puppy heart and orphan soul platform will be an arduous one" 02:25:13 What is the happy platform? 02:25:35 bigjust: happy? 02:26:03 a lisp OS on the cloud, i guess 02:26:52 redline6561: you know.. good feelings and such... no external dependencies :) 02:27:06 bigjust: Gotcha. :) 02:27:14 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu095.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:27:15 is this an actual project, or an inside joke? 02:27:28 you had to be there 02:28:11 I was trying to play on the nonsensical licensing musings of a troll 02:28:24 and failed 02:28:30 Madsy: the license on gcc itself doesn't matter, but the licensing of glibc matters when you're using gcc 02:29:09 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:29:18 and i was suggesting that lisp currently runs on "dark" things instead of "happy" 02:29:26 But of course, you wouldn't use glibc when writing a boot sector or a kernel. 02:29:33 The more so when writing them in lisp! 02:29:50 indeed 02:31:27 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:38 seangrove [~user@c-67-188-0-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:06 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 02:38:26 petercoulton_ [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:26 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:43:04 -!- petercoulton_ [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:43:35 powerje_ [~powerj@adsl-75-60-225-60.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:08 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-60-194-184.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:45:08 -!- powerje_ is now known as powerje 02:47:47 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:19 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:49:37 zc00gii [~zc00gii@thefacepalm.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:40 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:56:03 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 02:57:02 -!- schme is now known as schmrkc 02:58:41 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:02:46 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:01 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ccakdicblucvisrt] has joined #lisp 03:08:48 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:14:44 caelan: Not anymore 03:15:41 Madsy: i meant that in general, the license on the libc you link to matters 03:16:20 since glibc has a pretty permissive license, it doesn't really matter in that particular case 03:16:25 -!- zophy [~sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:17:19 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:19:46 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-178.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 03:20:05 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-178.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:20:50 I can't seem to get hunchentoot to serve static files :P 03:21:22 Anyone who's got it working around to give a bit of help? 03:22:49 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:23:13 <|3b|`> (push (hunchentoot:create-static-file-dispatcher-and-handler "/path/in/url" "/path/on/filesystem") hunchentoot:*dispatch-table*) ? 03:23:35 Here's some code from a tutorial I saw this morning that does that http://www.adampetersen.se/code/retro-games.lisp 03:23:48 <|3b|`> or create-folder-dispatcher-and-handler to server an entire tree 03:24:49 One second, I'll paste the code to make sure I'm not missing something 03:25:47 <|3b|`> and make sure no other dispatcher is grabbing a prefix of the URL you are trying to serve first 03:26:23 I don't think so, no, it's a 404 issue 03:26:39 :O 03:27:50 <|3b|`> well, something could be returning 404 before it gets to the proper handler 03:28:52 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117116 03:28:59 <|3b|`> for a real site, i'd serve static files from nginx or whatever and only proxy the dynamic stuff to ht 03:29:11 Yeah, this is just for dev on my local laptop 03:29:35 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:29:44 And I get a 404 whenever I try to retrieve /images/gradient.jpb 03:29:46 err 03:29:53 /images/gradient.jpg 03:30:03 <|3b|`> might try full paths rather than "./..." 03:30:20 Will do 03:30:58 <|3b|`> ah, i don't think c-f-d-a-h actually activates the dispatcher, you need to add it to *dispatch-table* 03:31:05 Ah! 03:31:09 That sounds like the problem 03:31:25 I think I remember having this problem a few weeks ago when first dabbling 03:31:57 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 03:33:32 |3b|`: That was it (the dispatch table) 03:33:35 Thank you! 03:33:52 and thanks for the sample code onteria, just copied that :) 03:33:54 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:33:56 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:34:50 Can I see a list of current urls/routes and the order that they'll be consumed? 03:35:08 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 03:35:29 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:35:56 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 03:49:15 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 03:52:03 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:32 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 03:54:47 -!- bigjust is now known as bigjust_ 03:56:51 seangrove: what about activating your brains and having a look at hunchentoot:*dispatch-table* ? 03:57:54 <|3b|`> pjb: doesn't that depend on a lisp that would let you introspect into closures? 03:58:16 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-147.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:58:56 *|3b|`* may be underestimating that possibility though, looks like SBCL does at least 03:59:04 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-216-206.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:00:38 <|3b|`> not the easiest thing to read either way, i usually just reload it and start over when i want to be sure what is there :p 04:02:58 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-147.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:05:12 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:51 pjb: I did, but it's a bunch of closures 04:07:30 Might be able to write some helper functions around this I suppose 04:07:34 |3b|`: most probably instead of hooking functions there, you can hook function designators. In places like that, it may be very advantageous of using function names instead of functions. Eg. when you redefine a function, usually the function object is not changed. But if you put the function name, it will use the new definition. 04:08:25 seangrove: or just have aa look at your source, ;-) 04:09:16 Yes, that is possible, I just prefer to have a quick way to see everything in an immediately recognizable way 04:09:47 Also, I'm quite confused about symbols 04:10:27 In ruby, :symbol_name is universal (I believe) - any package referencing it would always reference the same object 04:10:40 But in lisp, it seems that symbols are very closely tied to packages 04:12:26 <_3b> pjb: seems to defeat the purpose of the create-*-dispatcher-and-handler functions if you have to wrap them in a named function 04:12:57 <_3b> though i suppose that could be a sign those helpers should work differently 04:13:10 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:23 *_3b* could see a helper that defined a named function instead, and putting the name of that function on the dispatch table 04:15:31 Yes. You can easily write such an helper to wrap the closures returned by create-*-dispatcher-and-handler. 04:26:36 -!- az [~az@p4FE4ED21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:27:19 -!- schme is now known as schmrkc 04:27:55 jeti` [~user@p548EAE95.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:48 evening 04:32:13 -!- jeti [~user@p54B46062.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:32:54 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 04:34:17 az [~az@p4FE4EBAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:58 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-24-4-147-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:40:59 gggg [81aebe7e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.174.190.126] has joined #lisp 04:41:20 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 04:41:23 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 04:41:35 how can i get clisp to not print out warnings? -q -q --silent doesn't do it. 04:42:23 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:43:02 does anyone know how to use muffle-warning? 04:43:17 nope. 04:50:12 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 04:52:50 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:56:14 hi, is it possible to output "1st" "2nd" ... with format? 05:00:01 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 05:01:14 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Client Quit] 05:02:58 zophy [~sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:52 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 05:06:58 -!- gggg [81aebe7e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.174.190.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:13:28 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:13:47 (format t "\"1st\" \"2nd\"") 05:14:49 yeah there is no builtin functionality for this 05:15:32 No, there is no builtin functionality for outputting arbitrary text strings. 05:16:15 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:25 schmrkc: I meant counting, sorry I don't know the right English term for it, like (format nil "~magic" 1) => 1st 05:16:28 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:16:28 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 05:16:28 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 05:16:31 oh! 05:16:34 Hmm... 05:17:03 none that I know of. 05:17:41 I guess you could make a function that does the magic for ya and call that. 05:17:42 Hmm, parenscript is *not* giving me what I want with @ and chain :P 05:18:24 seangrove: what do you want:) 05:18:26 or maybe some control string magic. 05:18:41 I'll copy one of the examples... 05:18:50 schmrkc: I'm checking http://gigamonkeys.com/book/a-few-format-recipes.html maybe this (format nil "~[cero~;uno~;dos~]" 0) ==> "cero" stuff can be a starting point 05:19:16 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-147.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:22:48 ignotus et al.: here's the problem: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117119 05:23:15 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-oxuogspzvxuvovwc] has joined #lisp 05:23:16 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-oxuogspzvxuvovwc] has quit [Changing host] 05:23:16 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:23:17 <|3b|`> ps:@ ? 05:23:23 oh jesus 05:23:29 *seangrove* wonders if that'll work 05:23:44 ignotus: That qualifies as control string magic (: 05:23:50 wow 05:23:53 seangrove: it must be a noob mistake:) 05:23:54 |3b|`: Jesus man 05:23:55 Wow 05:24:00 ignotus: Totally 05:24:23 <|3b|`> yeah, pretty common problem with ps :) 05:24:44 schmrkc: (format nil "~D~[th~;st~;nd~;rd~:;th~]" 2 2) now I have this, but the duplicated arguments make this solution horrible:) 05:25:02 Thanks |3b|`, appreciate the tip - so close to getting this thing out 05:25:06 ignotus: ~:* 05:25:13 pjb: checking 05:25:19 ignotus: so (defun blargl (herp) (format .... herp herp)) 05:25:32 schmrkc: never:D 05:25:35 ignotus: also, have a look at ~:R 05:26:21 just ~/ like normal people (; 05:27:05 (let ((n 42)) (format nil "~D~A" n (let ((ordinal (format nil "~:R" n))) (subseq ordinal (- (length ordinal) 2))))) 05:27:23 ~:R was nice. 05:27:24 |3b|`: Any way to keep case? I need $.Storage and ps is outputting $.storage 05:27:29 pjb: hehe thanks:) 05:27:39 seangrove: *storage 05:28:09 <|3b|`> seangrove: not sure, but you can add * or - to the name to change how ps outputs it 05:28:31 Good morning everyone! 05:30:57 Aweomse, seems to be working guys, thank you 05:31:34 pjb, thanks, with ~:* I quite like this :) (format nil "~D~:*~[th~;st~;nd~;rd~:;th~]" 0) 05:32:51 ignotus: eleventh versus twentyfirst 05:33:15 Ralith: argh! thanks 05:34:56 this? :) (format nil "~D~[th~;st~;nd~;rd~:;th~]" 21 (mod 21 10)) 05:37:21 ignotus: that doesn't fix it. 05:38:04 Ralith: can you give me an example error please? 05:38:30 pass it 11 05:39:50 Ralith: you're right, thanks. Then pjb's ~:R + subseq is the true way 05:40:16 you certainly could implement it yourself 05:40:23 it's just generally not the best idea to 05:40:54 I see it now, it seemed a lot simpler problem at first glance 05:41:38 natural language stuff rarely is 05:41:51 just be glad you probably won't have to localize this code. 05:42:52 chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-93-176-141.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:49:50 Am I the only one following the Google AI challenge in near-real-time? 05:51:07 -!- bipartite [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:51:43 beach: I've been keeping an eye on it since you pointed out the link to me 05:53:00 Right now, it looks like mega1 has a comfortable lead. 05:54:30 <|3b|`> yeah, and presumably converging on final score, since submission deadline is over if i remember right 05:54:52 Right. 05:55:59 <|3b|`> seems to have pulled ahead since last time i looked 05:56:11 when does this thing end? 05:56:24 <|3b|`> submission deadline was yesterday, results 1st 06:02:07 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:06:12 -!- sadeness [~vik@CPE00222dcb228f-CM00222dcb228b.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: z] 06:07:07 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.107.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:07:11 -!- kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:07:48 -!- caelan [~caelan@gnu/webmaster/caelan] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:08:59 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:09:09 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:09:16 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:09:18 -!- shachaf [~shachaf@208.69.183.87] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:09:23 shachaf [~shachaf@208.69.183.87] has joined #lisp 06:09:37 http://fpaste.org/fUCu/ what this means ? 06:10:32 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 06:14:30 <|3b|`> it means you tried to dereference a null pointer, either from bad FFI, lieing to the compiler with low safety settings, or possibly compiler bugs 06:17:15 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:19:14 ok 06:19:26 calling one function is doing this 06:19:51 (defun show-symbol (id) (cl-who:htm (:h1 (cl-who:str id)))) 06:21:46 <|3b|`> cl-who:htm isn't a function 06:22:05 <|3b|`> it should catch that though, unless you set safety to 0 somewhere 06:23:29 <|3b|`> it should complain when you compile it too, even with safety 0 06:23:42 I can't seem to eval code in a macro if it's in a string 06:23:57 I've been resorting to concatenate, but it's not working in this case - what's the standard approach to this? 06:23:59 <|3b|`> (at least i think it should, too lazy to start up a separate lisp to try) 06:24:18 <|3b|`> EVAL works on forms, not strings 06:24:20 |3b|`, but I am loading cl-who using quicklisp 06:24:28 <|3b|`> (though strings are forms that evaluate to themselves) 06:24:43 |3b|`: Yeah, but I'm trying to do this: ",name" and have it expand 06:24:57 but it's coming out as ",name", literally - what's the way around this? 06:25:02 <|3b|`> kushal: what difference does that make? unless you are using some strange cl-who, it doesn't define a function named HTM 06:25:12 seangrove: FORMAT 06:25:17 Ah, ok 06:26:08 <|3b|`> seangrove: sounds like you are trying to do something strange or not understanding how one of more of macros, reader, or backquote work 06:26:17 |3b|`, I mean , I am using cl-who:htm and all other functions from it in the other files 06:26:35 <|3b|`> seangrove: maybe paste a full example? 06:27:46 <|3b|`> kushal: right, cl-who:htm still isn't a function... it only works inside cl-who:with-html-output 06:28:10 |3b|`, oh ok, that I misunderstood 06:29:19 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xgnboyrmematpqpj] has joined #lisp 06:29:21 <|3b|`> sbcl should have been able to tell you that it wasn't a function rather than giving that corruption message though, look for (safety 0) in your code 06:30:11 |3b|`, so, I am inside a cl-who:with-html-output , and there I want to call another function which will give me the required html output, should I call cl-who:with-html-output in the second function also ? 06:30:28 <|3b|`> i think that is the intended way to do that, yes 06:30:45 *|3b|`* has never really gotten comfortable with cl-who 06:30:54 ok 06:34:43 |3b|`, still complaining about cl-who:str 06:35:56 <|3b|`> well, cl-who:str isn't a function either, can't say what is wrong without seeing the code though 06:37:28 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:38:47 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 06:39:40 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:43:50 |3b|`, http://paste.lisp.org/display/117122 06:44:00 xavierHart [~xavierHar@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has joined #lisp 06:46:31 schmrkc: FORMAT works perfectly 06:46:41 Thanks for that, I feel like I've been ignoring that at my peril for awhile now 06:46:47 -!- pnq [~nick@AC83B7F0.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:47:28 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:48:39 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:48:51 format is a large can of worms 06:49:45 <|3b|`> kushal: you should read the docs for cl-who, you need to pass some arguments to with-html-output 06:49:58 ok reading them 06:50:09 which output and others 06:57:38 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 06:59:38 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Client Quit] 07:04:41 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:07:12 seangrove: |3b|` is right though, for a while you have been asking questions that show a lack of understanding of the basic mechanisms. I think you would waste a lot less of your time if you started figuring out what is going on. 07:07:43 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:10:23 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp3255.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 07:11:17 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@213.141.132.14] has left #lisp 07:12:24 -!- xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-61-51.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:13:54 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082BD6A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:25 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 07:16:01 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082A160.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:16:09 flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has joined #lisp 07:16:09 -!- flip214 [~marek@86.59.100.100] has quit [Changing host] 07:16:09 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:22:26 xinming_ [~hyy@115.221.15.245] has joined #lisp 07:25:14 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.12.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:25:26 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-106-12.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:19 kaemo [~mad5ci@150.254.83.46] has joined #lisp 07:27:38 I can't seem to figure out if parenscript can do json on its own, or if I have to find another library 07:29:15 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:31:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:34:34 Looks like I should use yason 07:41:36 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ccakdicblucvisrt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:41:36 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42:06 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 07:42:15 Arg, I keep running into this 07:42:29 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-bisvbdbvihjzcfvu] has joined #lisp 07:42:43 How do I make a string-output-stream into a simple string? 07:43:30 what is a simple string ? 07:43:47 Good question 07:43:51 simple-vector, char union ? 07:43:59 One second 07:44:19 (class-of (format nil "example")) -> # 07:44:26 xan_ [~xan@65.141.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:29 I guess simple-character-string is what I'm looking for 07:44:33 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-101.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:56 yes 07:46:01 json:encode wants an output string - I use (let ((stream (make-string-output-stream))) and pass it in 07:46:15 Now I'd like to figure out how to make stream into simple-character-string 07:47:09 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-90-134.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:47:24 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:40 is there something like make-string with options ? 07:47:58 then you can wrap that with with-output-to-string or so 07:48:14 Ah, I probably just want with-output-to-string 07:48:40 seangrove: Why do you care whether it is simple or not? 07:48:56 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:49:00 *seangrove* slaps his forehead 07:49:06 Sorry, should start from the beginning 07:49:11 I just want to output a json string 07:49:31 Is json string different from a Common Lisp string? 07:49:41 No, it shouldn't be 07:49:49 In the end, I just want to be able to stuff it down the socket 07:49:55 Then whether the string is simple or not doesn't matter. 07:50:00 By passing it to hunchentoot 07:50:09 Yeah, I don't think it should 07:50:15 I didn't realize there was even a difference 07:50:17 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 07:50:22 e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:50:26 Which is when I realized I really should have started from the beginning 07:52:53 with-output-to-string did it 07:53:03 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-206-24-92.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:55:05 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55:14 seangrove: Why are you using parenscript, anyway? 07:58:08 -!- hansef [~hansef@c-24-21-202-103.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: hansef] 07:58:25 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-206-24-92.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:59:32 sykopomp: To see how far I can take it, I suppose 07:59:51 json seems to be a strongly limiting factor though 08:00:08 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@124.171.234.58] has joined #lisp 08:00:24 Can you give more specifics on what you're trying to do? I can't immediately think of why json + parenscript would be a problem. 08:00:32 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 08:00:33 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:01:40 Well, a jquery ajax post is presenting me with some difficulties 08:02:51 besides parenscript's funky capitalization? 08:03:25 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117123 08:04:23 I'm hoping that snippet is horribly wrong 08:04:37 it has eval in it. Odds are you're right. 08:05:36 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.74.2] has joined #lisp 08:05:43 oh yeah, even before that 08:05:56 completely ignoring the eval even 08:07:59 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-96.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:08:05 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-76-102-192-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:08:18 I'm not sure about how to get data into the ((ps:@ $ ajax) ,data)) statement, and from there, the data.data key is another json object that has to have its data filled at runtime 08:09:17 <_3b> are you trying to pass a js object to $.ajax, or a string containing json? 08:10:17 *_3b* assumes a js object, in which case use ps:create 08:11:30 _3b: ps:create? 08:11:56 ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-151-8.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:12:24 *_3b* points at the parenscript docs 08:13:32 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-31-176.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:13:47 oh 08:13:55 _3b: I kept trying to M-. to ps:create. Heh. 08:14:30 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:14:54 *_3b* had that working at one point 08:15:27 *p_l|home* tends to use ps:chain indiscriminately with jQuery 08:17:07 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-15-87.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:17:07 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 08:17:39 -!- seangrove [~user@c-67-188-0-111.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:18:25 -!- kaemo [~mad5ci@150.254.83.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:18:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:22:21 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:33:54 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:36:49 -!- xavierHart [~xavierHar@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:45:32 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:47:13 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-161-117-56.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:57 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:48:10 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.233.94] has joined #lisp 08:51:46 Hun` [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 08:57:47 LinGmnZ [~LinGmnZ@ppp-58-8-237-6.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 08:58:52 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59:40 your marketing department here. Any recommendations on lisp intro material for different attention spans? 09:00:02 say 10-30 minutes / a couple of hours / days 09:00:24 quickest slime intro, etc 09:03:36 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:03:38 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:55 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:01 there are some good books, if you've got a few days 09:04:19 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:04:41 for shorter timespans, a few minutes? show things like the quick web intro http://www.adampetersen.se/articles/lispweb.htm 09:04:53 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-96.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:05:19 mega1_: http://norvig.com/21-days.html 09:06:01 the target audience knows programming quite well I'd say but unfamiliar with lisp 09:06:41 i get errors on asdf-system-connections with quicklisp on version-satisfies on load 09:07:05 no applicable method 09:11:36 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 09:11:46 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 09:11:47 flip214: that looks good 09:12:23 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.56.116] has joined #lisp 09:12:26 hi 09:12:49 Can tail-recursion be done in CL? 09:13:14 tcleval: several implementations support it. 09:13:36 SBCL and CCL both do, at the very least. 09:13:40 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 09:17:03 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:14 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-59-71.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:18:06 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-91-15.w92-162.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:18:08 -!- beach` is now known as beach 09:18:13 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-40.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 09:18:59 xavierHart [~xavierHar@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has joined #lisp 09:19:31 -!- SV_Nik [~ngkhatu@99-89-3-67.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:20:33 mega1_: Looking very good for you on the challenge! 09:21:24 beach: yes, I'm already thinking of popularizing lisp and looking for quick intros 09:21:48 mega1_: How are you planning to do that (popularizing Lisp)? 09:21:54 A lot of the contestant will read my code so they'll need it. 09:22:03 I see! 09:22:15 How big is the code? 09:22:55 about 2000 lines 09:23:28 mega1_: Can't you just turn it into something like literate programming, perhaps by just adding lots of comments? 09:23:49 mega1_: 2kLines is not that much actually. How does that compare to other entries? 09:23:59 that's what I'd like to do, but it would be funny to explain handler-bind in the middle of a lisp file 09:24:34 mega1_: I see your point, but that might be the best way. Maybe make two versions? 09:25:10 ZabaQ [~john.conn@31.83-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:14 2000 is about average I think 09:26:20 beach: I have limited time though. I burnt way more hours on this than I should have. 09:27:01 mega1_: Of course. Perhaps #lisp participants could pitch in! 09:27:24 Is the code already available? 09:27:27 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:30 hehe, and comment my code? That could work in other cases too :-) 09:27:50 Why not! :) 09:28:01 beach: not yet, I've been holding it back until it's cleaned up. 09:28:14 mega1_: OK, let us know when it's out. 09:30:48 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:31:44 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.56.116] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:36:49 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:39:12 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.58.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:42:55 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:43:56 schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:43:56 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 09:43:56 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 09:44:26 mega1_: I should perhaps wait another day for this, but still, I am very impressed by what you did. You have a 100point lead which is incredibly much more than any other difference between two adjacent entries as far as I can tell. 09:46:14 let's hope it stays that way during the final tournament 09:46:23 citizen428 [~citizen42@chello213047077012.23.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:49:57 -!- LinGmnZ [~LinGmnZ@ppp-58-8-237-6.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:50:18 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:50:37 -!- baley [~baley@87.229.24.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:51:26 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:14 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-40.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:52:53 beach, jdz: ratings are stabilizing with more and more games played, so I hope this is about what we can expect. 09:53:43 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:49 So what did you use handler-bind for? 09:55:44 oh man, it was again system packages interfering 09:55:56 -!- ASau [~user@95-28-62-161.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:56:13 tcr1: to continue simulating the future when there were impossible orders 09:56:14 lol, cl-asdf was installed, without me recognizing 09:56:35 that is when for example a player had an order to send 30 ships from planet 0 on turn 10 09:56:39 ASau [~user@95-28-62-161.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 09:56:52 and that became impossible due to having lost a planet. 09:57:03 *the planet 09:58:14 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-178-205-189.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:58:14 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ae0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:13 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-205-189.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:24 -!- hdurer__ [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:00:19 -!- ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01:02 jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.21.92] has joined #lisp 10:02:59 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.31.11.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 10:03:08 does clsql takes care of SQL injection ? 10:03:29 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 10:03:51 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu136.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:04:24 kushal: i'd expect it to do whatever you tell it to; 10:05:02 jdz, so if the query statement is "select name from students where id=" id 10:05:24 kushal: yes, if you use strings for querying 10:05:24 and somebody passed id = "10;delete table students;" 10:05:29 kushal: whic hyou should not do, really 10:05:43 jdz, what should I use ? 10:06:07 kushal: it has it's own syntax for query construction 10:06:11 kushal: check the documentation 10:06:13 ok 10:07:26 kushal: your example query would be something like (sorry, i don't know the real names of functions): (name (select-by-primary-key 'student)) 10:07:48 jdz, found the documentation 10:07:48 (name (select-by-primary-key 'student 10)) 10:07:57 jdz, thanks , will convert them 10:10:35 You know, it took a while, but finally a penny dropped in my head today. 10:11:28 I've always wondered about CLOS and how it is really different than traditional OOP. 10:11:43 baley [~baley@87.229.24.201] has joined #lisp 10:11:50 So what's your conclusion? 10:12:39 Well, I understand there might be something like "FOP" (function orented programming) 10:12:41 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124.171.234.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:13:04 In which objects belong to functions, and you can use them in a more "functional" way. 10:13:16 I know that's obvious 10:13:40 but I didn't get it, coming from a rather strong OOP background. 10:14:39 For example... 10:14:57 Using bariers of abstraction, rather than "encapsulation". 10:15:30 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@31.83-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:15:42 It fixes a hell of a lot of problems for me. :) 10:16:52 Just thought I'd let you know, as it took me a while to come to this very obvious conclusion. 10:17:37 You know, just in case some of you might introduce certain programmers to CL. 10:18:22 *stassats* doesn't understand what jtza8 is talking about 10:18:42 Well, here's an example... 10:18:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117125 10:19:25 It looks like normal OOP code. It's actually simply a change of approach. 10:19:36 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 10:20:38 hi everyone. is anyone on the sbcl-devel mailing list? 10:20:48 dfox_ [~dfox@ip-89-176-11-41.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:20:56 there are plenty of people on sbcl-devel@ 10:22:11 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:22:17 ... here's the functional version I did a few years ago in scheme. 10:22:18 is subscription moderated? i signed up for both sbcl-help and -devel but never got the confirmation email for -devel. was wondering whether it was on my end 10:22:19 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117126 10:22:57 *jtza8* doesn't like that old code, it's messey, come to think of it. 10:24:03 and your conclusion is that using an object system to write object-oriented code is better than not using one? 10:24:21 Haha.. nope 10:24:29 p_l|home [~pl@80.55.15.84] has joined #lisp 10:25:07 I mean, in a functional system, you use bariers of abstraction, where in OOP, it's mostly replaced by encapsulation. 10:25:29 where is the difference? 10:25:39 in functional programming you have closures 10:25:58 That means, methods belong to objects, and objects are your bariers of abstraction. 10:26:13 Closures have nothing to do with functional programming per se. 10:26:28 in CLOS methods belong to generic functions, not objects 10:26:48 stassats: exactly 10:26:55 generic functions are objects! 10:27:06 Which give you a form of procedural abstraction. 10:27:13 jtza8: what do you mean by barriers of abstraction? protocols? 10:27:13 jdz: and so are methods 10:27:18 Just like methods in other OOP forms. 10:27:41 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu136.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:28:03 arbscht: I mean how they explain it in SICP. 10:28:14 Why do you think that OOP mostly replaces 'barriers of abstraction' with 'encapsulation' and what is the difference? 10:29:00 I think you're also getting the difference between gf and method confusions confused. 10:29:22 Consider both in terms of message passing. 10:29:57 Zhivago: in a traditional Java world, methods belong to one object only. 10:30:14 In both cases you have message delivery implemented as procedure calls. 10:30:47 jtza8: one class, really 10:31:01 The main difference is in the constraints upon dispatch, which should be clear if you try re-implementing one in terms of the other. 10:31:20 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-178-205-189.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:28 Zhivago: yes, that's basically what I meant. 10:31:29 ZabaQ [~john.conn@31.83-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:59 I was talking about an approach. 10:32:05 A paradigm 10:32:23 The next point should be that this is all procedural abstraction -- not functional. 10:32:36 jtza8: in traditional single-dispatch OOP, there are no methods, but Java muddies that 10:32:52 (and C++ pays only lipservice) 10:33:24 Methods are a decomposition of message handlers. 10:33:38 There's nothing about single-dispatch OOP that removes them. 10:34:03 Zhivago: Yes. 10:34:19 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-205-189.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:34:28 Imagine that you had one procedure that received a message, and then did stuff with it, with all funtionality embedded in that. 10:34:43 Zhivago: ok, bad phrasing from me, but you seem to handle it better :) 10:35:00 Now imagine various ways to decompose that to allow separate specification of behaviours for different message structures. 10:35:31 There are many ways to achieve this -- CLOS's generic functions are one, member functions are another, prototypes are another, and so on. 10:36:23 True, I guess I didn't express myself clearly, sorry for that then. 10:36:45 That's ok. Just make sure you don't confuse this with anything to do with functional programming. :) 10:36:55 Right. 10:37:59 What's really impressive about MOP based systems is that they manage to define generic functions in terms of generic functions. 10:39:57 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:05 heh. CLOS became much nicer after "protocols" finally kicked in my mind 10:40:59 I guess just meant to say I'm starting to understand CLOS a little better. 10:41:25 ^I 10:44:50 *jtza8* does a face-palm as he reads some of what he said. 10:46:33 Anyhow, bye. :P 10:46:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@41.56.21.92] has quit [Quit: ...] 10:46:46 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.57.220] has joined #lisp 10:51:47 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D23E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:29 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 10:54:16 marijnjh [~user@p5DDB29F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:24 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:57:07 Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has joined #lisp 10:57:27 Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:04 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.31.11.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:01:06 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] 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12:28:52 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 12:32:28 -!- kaemo [~mad5ci@150.254.83.46] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:32:30 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 12:32:55 -!- xristos is now known as Guest3480 12:34:54 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 12:35:34 I guess I'll take advantage of the silence to repeat the announcement of the first SICL module available: http://common-lisp.net/project/sicl/download/sicl-cons-high-0.1.tar.gz 12:36:14 -!- zophy [~sy@host-27-92-2-96.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:40:05 longshot [~longshot@216.131.74.24] has joined #lisp 12:40:34 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:40:41 Sikander [~userid@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 12:40:51 Hi 12:40:57 Hello Sikander 12:41:57 Is cl-pack the standard way of constructing a string from different binary types? 12:42:20 I read a bit about series in CLTL2 ... but SBCL says "undefined function: scan-file". Aren't series implemented in SBCL? 12:42:39 flip214: They aren't in the standard. 12:42:55 flip214: CLtL2 predates the standard, ans series weren't included. 12:43:05 Yes, ok ... but are they in SBCL? In a contrib-package, maybe? 12:44:40 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 12:46:55 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:47:48 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:48:30 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48:37 Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:50:18 Cin_ [~zhuangzi@host155-47-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:50:49 mk2` [~user@159.92.64.6] has joined #lisp 12:51:03 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:34 -!- Cin [~zhuangzi@pdpc/supporter/student/zhuangzi] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:51:37 -!- Cin_ is now known as Cin 12:51:39 -!- Cin [~zhuangzi@host155-47-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Changing host] 12:51:39 Cin [~zhuangzi@pdpc/supporter/student/zhuangzi] has joined #lisp 12:51:59 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:52:30 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:54:16 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:55 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:02 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:51 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-kpvtutzeguseqecp] has joined #lisp 13:01:25 Hmm, cl-pack doesn't work on windows sbcl... 13:01:40 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 13:04:47 Does anyone have some experience with lisp and some communications protocol that's based on encoding/decoding binary data into/from a string? 13:04:53 has anyone read lisp in small pieces ? 13:05:10 homie: Of course! Many people have. 13:05:36 were there any corrections to the book ? 13:05:53 homie: You would have to look at Christian's web site. 13:06:00 ah ok 13:06:30 "corrections"? Do you mean as a result of people discovering errors? 13:09:39 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:57 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 13:12:05 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-101.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:12:32 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-40.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:12:51 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-161-73-208.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:08 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:13:10 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 13:13:15 -!- Sikander [~userid@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:13:31 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 13:13:56 -!- schme is now known as schmrkc 13:18:27 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.255.30] has joined #lisp 13:18:44 makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has joined #lisp 13:21:02 murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has joined #lisp 13:21:42 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:47 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-41.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 13:25:58 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:46 -!- makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has left #lisp 13:28:56 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:02 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:31:35 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:32:06 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:32:06 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:32:58 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:58 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 13:40:35 aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has joined #lisp 13:40:43 ,o/ 13:40:47 frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 13:41:06 !bot? 13:41:10 aurelien: no. 13:41:18 hi Xach 13:41:22 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:42:22 Speaking, of bots, minion seems to come here less and less often. :( 13:42:45 mustn't like the company 13:42:47 Not a very good minion, in that case. 13:42:56 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:22 That'd be because minion doesn't /quite/ know how to detect that it's been disconnected. 13:43:46 I see that specbot is gone, too. 13:44:07 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.228] has joined #lisp 13:44:07 it seems to get disco'd quite frequently these days though 13:44:08 fogus` [c6970d0f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.198.151.13.15] has joined #lisp 13:44:19 Yeah, that's more on freenode's side, though. 13:44:40 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:45:13 freenode instigated a bot cull 13:45:27 nyef: Is that a hard problem, i.e., detecting that one has been disconnected? 13:45:27 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:56 minion: tell aurelien about yourself 13:45:56 aurelien: what's up? 13:46:05 It's not hard per se, it's more that it needs to be tied into all the rest of what's going on in the image. 13:46:12 hi minion 13:46:23 nothing ... 13:46:27 aurelien: try "minion: hi!" 13:46:32 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:37 specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:38 minion: o/ 13:46:39 o: An error was encountered in lookup: The value NIL is not of type NUMBER.. 13:46:44 minion hi 13:46:50 forgot the : 13:46:54 :) 13:47:02 minion: hi 13:47:03 what's up? 13:47:18 minion: well ... nothings up 13:47:19 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 13:47:26 a ... ok 13:47:29 *aurelien* shut up 13:47:56 Mmm. Excessive playing-with-bots adversely affects the channel signal-to-noise ratio. 13:47:57 minion: lisp or elisp? 13:47:57 i like lisp... i'm written in it 13:48:29 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:48:50 minion: elisp? 13:48:51 elisp: elisp - Emacs Lisp A dialect of Lisp used by the Emacs text editor. http://www.cliki.net/elisp 13:51:43 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-60-225-60.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:52:27 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:52:29 minion: cost of learning lisp? 13:52:30 i like lisp... i'm written in it 13:52:36 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-41.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:52:58 minion: minion source code 13:52:58 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 13:53:04 aurelien: pleas stop, really 13:53:11 ? 13:53:14 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 13:53:22 iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:25 stokachu` [~user@nat/redhat/x-wpgghpeihurctftg] has joined #lisp 13:53:38 i ask the bot to have access to it's source code 13:53:43 (if it's free) 13:53:46 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:57 MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has joined #lisp 13:54:13 urandom__ [~user@p548A6B8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:22 aurelien: Go to cliki.net 13:54:28 aurelien: search for minion 13:54:37 ok thanks 13:54:41 minion: minion? 13:54:42 minion: minion is an IRC robot (who prefers the term "electronically composed.") For online help, try /msg minion help Minion is hosted at common-lisp.net and is usually connected to the #lisp IRC channel. http://www.cliki.net/minion 13:55:06 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 13:55:45 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-41.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 13:56:02 gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 13:57:21 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@31.83-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has left #lisp 14:02:17 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:15 i would say with a mean value of say 100 $ for each book you have to read let alone exercies youself, you'd need say something like 10 books to get far enough to call yourself proficient in lisp 14:03:36 What? 14:03:43 so 1000 $ seams actually realistic 14:03:52 Umm. 14:04:13 I want to grab lisp in small pieces 14:04:15 homie: There are already 3 or more books online. 14:04:25 Get one good book, read lots of source code, and hack for a few years 14:04:38 yep, time matters too 14:04:39 Besides, proficiency doesn't come from reading. 14:04:41 homie: And the CLHS is an infinite source of pleasure. It is online as well. 14:04:42 and study the clhs 14:05:06 it's different frome one person to other how they read... 14:05:28 have you guys noticed the ninja turtles index references in CLtL2? :-) 14:05:43 i meant proficiency of understanding mostly 14:05:52 Me too 14:05:58 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 14:06:00 s/of/in/ 14:09:55 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:10:04 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-178-205-189.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:10:26 Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:10:28 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-205-189.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:57 homie: or you can pirate all the books 14:12:36 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 14:13:11 gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 14:13:25 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-91-4.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:14:13 homie: two books that are necessary (in my opinion) to learn, are available for free (PCL and Gentle), for advanced macrology there's On Lisp (also available for free), there is quite good paper on MOP to get you started, and CLHS is free 14:15:57 i don't have a printed version of on-lisp as a book, i have only amop book and let-over-lambda 14:16:07 but imho, if you really want to pay for something get PAIP :) 14:16:15 the others are all pdf version here 14:16:42 and i would like to get paip yes 14:17:50 and lisp in small pieces, i read the second time now, the first time i couldn't get further than the first chapter i think 14:19:04 well, imo paip wasn't _that_ good ... but maybe I've just read the books in the wrong order, so that most of the things I heard mentioned somewhere else 14:19:30 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 14:19:42 theres a new versoin of paip out i think 14:19:52 version 14:20:30 homie: not really 14:20:31 homie: I don't think so. 14:20:40 oh 14:20:44 you confuse it with aima most likely 14:20:48 there are multiple versions of AIMA. 14:21:14 at least there was something on his website mentioning a new version or such 14:21:22 hmmm 14:21:34 homie: Nope. 14:21:51 -!- Harag [~user@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:21:59 homie: http://norvig.com/Lisp-retro.html 14:22:04 homie: the only books that I'd consider important and not exactly replaceable and which aren't legally available on the net are PAIP, AMOP... 14:22:06 erm maybe i'm confused 14:22:14 -!- kanru1 [~kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:23:17 i think lisp-in-small-pieces is definitely worth it too, and clos from keene 14:23:35 p_l|home: for beginner S.E.Keene no? 14:23:46 yep 14:24:17 I second Keene's book. 14:24:22 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:24:38 udzinari: I've seen Keene's, but I'm unsure whether it's legally available on the net 14:25:11 n2linux [~n2linux@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 14:25:13 as for the beginner thing, what I had in mind was user-level language crafting or something like that, which was an introduction to MOP for someone who already knew CLOS 14:25:34 p_l|home: it isn't legally available online. 14:25:42 ^ 14:30:40 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 14:38:02 -!- murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:40:26 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.57.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:43:07 -!- l_a_m_ [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:43:37 l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 14:45:09 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-kpvtutzeguseqecp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45:15 kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.143] has joined #lisp 14:45:15 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.163.143] has quit [Changing host] 14:45:15 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:45:23 -!- drdo [~user@77.54.208.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:46:19 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:23 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:46:25 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 14:46:56 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:48:09 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:48:21 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:50:16 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2377.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:55 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:51:07 Does anyone happen to know how one can adjust swapiness on OS X? 14:51:45 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Object-oriented design" is an oxymoron] 14:53:18 kanru [~kanru@118-160-166-108.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:40 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:58 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:55:52 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 14:58:01 -!- starseek1r is now known as starseeker 14:59:05 splittist [~John@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 14:59:07 katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 14:59:09 morning 15:00:28 hi splittist 15:00:38 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 15:01:00 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:22 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 15:01:48 -!- chandler [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has left #lisp 15:02:29 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:03:41 hey 15:04:42 -!- katesmith_ [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:05:00 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:06:13 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 15:07:42 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:08:48 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:09:22 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:09:57 Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:10:16 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu136.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:14:14 schme [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:14:18 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 15:14:19 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 15:16:36 murilasso [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has joined #lisp 15:18:54 -!- schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:19:17 schme [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:19:17 -!- schme [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 15:19:17 schme [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 15:19:28 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:21:17 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-123-152.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:21:41 gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 15:22:11 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Client Quit] 15:23:21 gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 15:24:27 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Client Quit] 15:24:58 gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 15:25:54 rukowen [~thehien@222.253.96.73] has joined #lisp 15:26:06 AMOP? 15:26:16 minion: amop 15:26:17 amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 15:28:07 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Client Quit] 15:28:36 gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has joined #lisp 15:28:38 sepcification sounds... medical 15:28:59 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 15:29:06 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31:23 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 15:32:23 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:32:52 -!- ineiros_ [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:33:19 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xgnboyrmematpqpj] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:34:22 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:27 sepi [~sepiultru@hcl-club.lu] has joined #lisp 15:34:30 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:58 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 15:34:58 Is there a generic method that converts any datatype to a string in cl? 15:34:59 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has left #lisp 15:35:03 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:16 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 15:35:18 -!- aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has quit [Quit: be free!] 15:35:25 -!- az [~az@p4FE4EBAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:35:44 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:35:47 Sikander [~userid@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #lisp 15:36:25 sepi: No. 15:36:29 sepi: princ-to-string 15:36:39 How can I find out which character encoding my lisp uses internally for strings, and how can I change that? 15:36:50 Sikander: why would you care? 15:37:23 stassats: Well, I may be looking at the wrong thing... but I'm trying to get cl-pack working 15:37:26 -!- rukowen [~thehien@222.253.96.73] has left #lisp 15:37:37 rukowen [~thehien@222.253.96.73] has joined #lisp 15:37:44 When I pack stuff into a string, and then unpack it, it doesn't make any sense any more 15:37:59 i think that will involve fixing cl-pack, not your implementation. 15:38:00 you should only care about external encoding 15:38:09 :( 15:38:11 -!- xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:38:29 How do I see external encoding? At least that might help me debug what's going on with cl-pack 15:38:45 And how do I change external encoding? 15:38:47 which implementation ? 15:38:52 sbcl on windows 15:39:17 Or is there an alternative for packing binary stuff into a string and unpacking it? 15:39:27 base64 15:39:50 won't work. I'm using some externally defined communication protocol 15:39:55 minion: cl-base64? 15:39:56 cl-base64: cl-base64 is a library that provides base64 (RFC 1521) encoding and decoding. http://www.cliki.net/cl-base64 15:40:11 Sikander: then what strings got to do with it? 15:40:12 octets-to-string? 15:40:25 (And vice-versa, of course.) 15:40:51 where is this octets-to-string? 15:40:54 And your encoding is the external-format of the stream you use. 15:41:00 Umm... SB-EXT, I think? 15:41:09 I could look it up, or you could use APROPOS. 15:41:13 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:41:24 oh, ok, I thought it was an external package 15:41:26 babel and flexi-streams also provide portable(?) ways to do this. 15:41:40 http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2007-06/msg00917.html 15:41:41 Sikander: why do you need to pack binary data into a string? 15:42:05 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:43:07 stassats: Well, I'm using cffi to a C library that sends these strings to some driver of some external instrument 15:43:20 stassats: and reads this stuff back again. 15:43:26 Sikander: Umm... Why aren't you using octet buffers in the first place, then? 15:43:39 az [~az@p4FE4F00F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:45 https://answers.launchpad.net/sbcl/+question/74497 15:43:47 nyef: because I'm just messing around and don't know what the hell I'm doing? 15:43:49 this one is better 15:44:20 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:57 hmm, octet buffers. Is this part of CL or some external package? 15:45:31 (make-array $n$ :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) 15:45:35 http://de.w3support.net/index.php?db=so&id=600070 15:45:52 homie: thanks for the links 15:46:09 sadeness [~zebadaia@74.198.8.60] has joined #lisp 15:46:16 stassats: thanks, that's what I was looking for 15:46:19 nyef: But then I still need a way to pack arbitrary binary types into that array, and unpack them from that array 15:46:20 flexistream,babel and sbcl itself have octet-to-string functions 15:46:40 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:52 which is where cl-pack came in 15:46:54 Sikander: And... you don't now, using strings? 15:46:56 (if it works) 15:47:14 nyef: yes, but then I only need to fix cl-pack 15:48:03 Unless the code is horrible to understand, it seems like the easiest way to solve the problem, instead of rolling my own packing/unpacking library 15:48:15 the idea of packing binary data into strings (other than in the way similar to base64) is inherently broken and isn't work fixing 15:48:25 s/work/worth/ 15:48:41 I know, but there's still this communications protocol 15:48:43 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-41.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:59 stassats: Can I send you the manufacturer's address, and you can write a long letter about why it's broken? ;) 15:49:32 basically, I want to do what perl/python's pack and unpack do. 15:50:11 Hmmm... Perhaps I _should_ rewrite it to make use of an octet buffer. 15:50:18 are they broken as well and conflate textual and binary data? 15:50:50 I think yes. 15:51:52 then you shouldn't follow bad examples 15:52:10 :( 15:52:16 But I *like* bad examples! 15:52:20 It makes me a bad programmer! 15:53:38 benny [~benny@i577A37B2.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:53:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-164-40.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:54:12 Okok, you convinced me. I'll rewrite something similar to pack and unpack, but something that packs to/unpacks from an octet buffer. Is that better? 15:55:00 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:55:39 he was about the binary/test distinction i guess 15:55:47 more about i mean 15:55:55 Sikander: i would feel better. 15:55:59 err s/test/text/ 15:56:04 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:56:19 And I would probably also learn something along the way. 15:56:21 pavelludiq_ [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 15:56:26 This is sounding worse every second ;( 15:56:29 ferada [~user@e179235093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:56:30 s/(/)/ 15:57:19 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:57:20 Sikander: check out https://gist.github.com/266945 .. and also https://github.com/death/dbus/blob/master/utils.lisp#L151 15:57:24 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:58:11 carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.27] has joined #lisp 15:58:19 adeht: Woo! thanks! 15:58:36 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:59:42 -!- compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:59:59 -!- pavelludiq_ [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 16:00:21 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:00:28 compmstr [~compmstr@adsl-074-185-008-197.sip.clt.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:29 BillyR [43a45d64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.164.93.100] has joined #lisp 16:00:52 hi, with "in-package" i get into a package, how do i exit that package and return to previous package? thx 16:01:02 BillyR: with (in-package) again. 16:01:07 adeht: Is gist snippet yours? 16:01:32 (in-package :cl-user) to get to toplevel again 16:01:36 adeht: Is *the* gist snippet yours? 16:01:36 Sikander: yes 16:02:06 BillyR: you can't really "exit" a package. you can make a different one the current package, though. 16:02:26 BillyR: underneath, in-package is setting the value of cl:*package* 16:02:47 thx all for ur replies 16:02:49 antgreen [~user@nat/redhat/x-itvfhhnrnvduoksh] has joined #lisp 16:02:49 adeht: Ah. thanks. It's not a separate package, is it? Works on sbcl? 16:02:53 (seems so) 16:03:24 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:03:52 adeht: Thanks. I'll shamelessly steal your snippet :D 16:03:58 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:04:59 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.255.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:06:35 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:07:19 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:07:41 didn't realize i have to prefix *package* and in-package with cl: after i entered into another package, i thought the cl: prefix is the default one and can be omitted 16:08:05 BillyR: only if that other package uses the CL package. 16:08:19 (defpaackage :other (:use :cl)) (in-packaage :other) ... 16:08:24 Sikander: I use sbcl, so it should work, yeah 16:08:42 churib [~churib@dslc-082-082-126-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:51 BillyR: if you don't use the :use option, the actual packages used is implementation dependant. 16:08:51 BillyR: I write the cl prefix to be clear about what symbol I mean. Whether you have to write it yourself depends on what the current package is. 16:10:28 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:56 pjb: the "package" i played with was an empty one that didn't ":use :cl", so that's why 16:11:06 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:11:23 Xach: the cl prefix you put there helped me understand how it works 16:11:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:11:55 BillyR: ah, good. 16:12:09 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@selene.ftk.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:13:26 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:13:34 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:16:10 Ok, thanks a lot for the help. See you later 16:16:15 -!- Sikander [~userid@wirenat-eld.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has left #lisp 16:16:37 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.228] has joined #lisp 16:18:07 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:20:40 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:20:42 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-48-169.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:48 -!- BillyR [43a45d64@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.164.93.100] has left #lisp 16:22:28 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-166-147.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:22:45 drdo [~user@77.54.208.2] has joined #lisp 16:23:19 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:25:26 -!- ferada [~user@e179235093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:27:08 -!- jeti` [~user@p548EAE95.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:27:26 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-48-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:28:41 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:31:14 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:31:28 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:31:45 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 16:31:49 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-48-169.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:32:12 La0fer [~Laofers1@64.120.233.114] has joined #lisp 16:32:23 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 16:32:47 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:33:41 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:06 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 16:37:45 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:38:32 -!- Hun` [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:02 *Xach* thinks he may have found a clisp bug! 16:39:35 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 16:39:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 16:39:41 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:39:53 well, didier verna found it, but i think i know what caused it. time to distill down a test case... 16:40:01 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:30 clisp doesn't seem to close its fasl input stream in the event of a failed/aborted cl:load. 16:41:51 Beautiful! 16:42:08 Whatever happened to with-open-{file,stream}, anyway? 16:44:27 -!- rukowen [~thehien@222.253.96.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:46:47 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 16:48:31 hmm... anyone here knows of any open source RDF/OWL packages for Lisp? There's Wilbur, but it deals only with RDF, I think... 16:49:05 what is json about ? 16:49:32 homie, www.json.org/ 16:49:45 that's about the best resource on it on the web 16:49:57 top google result as well, hehe 16:50:45 ... Every time I see "OWL" as an acronym, I think "Object Windows Library". Thanks ever so much, Borland Turbo Pascal for Windows. :-/ 16:51:40 I thought OWL was pretty much dead as far as semantic web went 16:51:40 p_l|home: OWL is same triples still? 16:51:59 Guthur: what else is "semantic web" about? 16:52:21 nyef: to make it funnier, OWL is specially misconstructed acronym (it's Web OntologyLanguage) 16:52:31 Guthur: they went for OWL2 16:52:49 my homework is still using OWL DL 16:53:07 what was dead anyway was OWL Lite 16:53:21 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:53:30 jdz: OWL describes ontology for RDF 16:53:33 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117131 is an example of the bug in action 16:54:02 *Xach* wonders if there's some kind of caching in effect 16:54:58 aren't fasl files shadowing the lisps ? 16:55:00 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:55:19 homie: Why do you think that might be the case? 16:56:24 now, let's hope that wilbur compiles... 16:57:04 ... it has an ugly dependency :/ (aserve) 16:57:05 p_l|home: I think the current Lisp/RDF situation is bleak. Theres AllegroGraph, but that is clearly not open source. 16:57:08 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:42 marijnjh: it's not bleak if one wants to work on semantic systems. It can be bleak when one wants to deal with homework originally specified in Java-based tools 16:57:54 (Protege has one of the most annoying GUIs I had ever used) 17:02:35 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 17:03:39 Is it generally considered OK to destructively modify the lisp form being compiled or should this be considered an error in SBCL that should be reported? 17:04:51 p_l|home: I mean in terms of open-source tool support 17:05:46 bobbysmith007: it's not a good idea. 17:06:50 froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:06 I certainly resulted in unexpected behaviour... I guess I will file a bug after lunch, if I can get an easily reproducible test case , thanks pkhuong 17:07:48 Mutate the form being compiled? The mind boggles. 17:07:54 bobbysmith007: hmm, I took pkhuong's statement to mean "don't destructively modify", not "sounds like a SBCL bug to be reported." 17:08:17 hansef [~hansef@c-24-21-202-103.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:09 well I have a case where calling compile on a form in SBCL is causing that form to change, so if that is unexpected / undesirable, then it seems like something to be reported? 17:10:19 There are, what, four possibilities here? Either it's an SBCL bug or it isn't, and either you file a bug report or you don't. 17:11:12 If it's not a bug and you don't report it, fine. If it's a bug and you don't report it, not so great. If it's not a bug and you report it, someone on the SBCL team will almost certainly explain why it's not a bug for the record and close out the bug. If it is a bug and you report it, great! 17:11:34 Ok, so filing after lunch, thanks 17:11:39 jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has joined #lisp 17:11:42 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 17:11:45 This is the form change I am seeing, for what its worth: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117132#1 17:11:49 If you can isolate a repeatable test case, it seems to me that the opportunity cost of filing the report is favorable. 17:12:33 ... Where's DFLET from? 17:13:22 Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 17:13:41 That looks like it's properly a bug in DFLET. 17:13:53 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-93-176-141.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:26 Good evening everyone! 17:14:29 And (apropos "dflet") on an easily-to-hand running sbcl doesn't find anything. 17:14:37 beach, good evening 17:14:43 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 17:15:16 Hello beach. 17:15:23 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:16:03 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756ae0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:24 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:17:21 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:27 dfox_ [~dfox@ip-89-176-11-41.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:17:51 -!- sadeness [~zebadaia@74.198.8.60] has quit [Changing host] 17:17:52 sadeness [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has joined #lisp 17:19:45 marijnjh: well, a KB/Semantic Web project just entered my list for possible 4th year project, I might end up adding some stuff to the open source pool :) 17:19:56 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-160-166-108.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:20:23 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:20:40 how can I concatenate strings while adding a char after each string except the last one? 17:21:49 marijnjh: ... Wilbur definitely needs an overhaul, it seems to have included something that looked like a complete XML parser... 17:22:13 brandonz [~brandon@c-76-102-192-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:18 sepi: A clever FORMAT control string, perhaps? 17:22:25 sepi: (format nil "~{~a~^CH~}" string-list) 17:22:43 -!- n2linux [~n2linux@user-0ccslg2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:28 nyef: marijnjh: thanks a lot. I allways forget about format for doing non trivial stuff with strings 17:25:25 -!- citizen428 [~citizen42@chello213047077012.23.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:27:10 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:30 -!- schme is now known as schmrkc 17:27:32 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:27:41 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-123-152.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:32:32 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-153-138.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:33:04 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:33:38 Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:33:44 novaburst [~novaburst@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 17:35:19 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:41 -!- anonymouse89 [~brian@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:37:16 *tcr* wishes for sexp-aware diff tool, and appropriate source change viewer 17:38:19 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:38:24 schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:38:24 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@c83-254-197-212.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Changing host] 17:38:24 schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 17:38:45 gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-36-140-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:00 onteria|i7 [~onteria@rrcs-64-183-118-2.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:10 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:50:24 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:52:49 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.74.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:55:35 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.151.115] has joined #lisp 17:58:53 Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:59:14 -!- pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:59:19 pok [~pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 18:00:19 xan_ [~xan@129.131.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:07 tcr: is ediff close enough? (its granularity being characters not lines) 18:04:05 jesusabdullah [~jesusabdu@li225-26.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:49 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:05:56 Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:07:26 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:01 jewel [~jewel@196-210-134-67.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:10:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:33 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-179-29-10.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:42 -!- mpederse` is now known as mpedersen 18:10:50 froydnj` [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 18:10:57 Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:11:28 -!- froydnj` [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:12:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:46 user- [~user@jak-gw.datatrans.hu] has joined #lisp 18:14:11 -!- user- [~user@jak-gw.datatrans.hu] has left #lisp 18:16:49 jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has joined #lisp 18:17:15 Joreji [~thomas@93-236.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:18:31 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:19:06 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:19:50 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:22:02 -!- drdo [~user@77.54.208.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:23:09 sadeness_ [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has joined #lisp 18:26:56 -!- sadeness [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:26:56 horze [~kim@c-601172d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:27:28 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-212-82.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:27:42 -!- horze [~kim@c-601172d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:52 horze [~kim@c-601172d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:29:48 -!- churib [~churib@dslc-082-082-126-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:02 -!- horze [~kim@c-601172d5.24-87-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 18:33:29 -!- Cin [~zhuangzi@pdpc/supporter/student/zhuangzi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:34:37 -!- jstypo [~jstypo@190.200.25.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:38:14 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:38:21 quasi_ [u404@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xbbjttmcxglsrjql] has joined #lisp 18:38:30 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:17 -!- albino_ is now known as albino 18:39:41 is there any on disk data caching system/library I can use in lisp ? 18:40:02 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-152-179-68.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:10 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:40:17 or simply is there any way to do things what pickle does in python ? 18:40:21 kushal: Depending on your needs, you might be able to use print and read. 18:40:41 Xach, ok, currently trying with json 18:41:03 -!- ASau [~user@95-28-62-161.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:21 there's write and read, and various serialization libraries 18:41:23 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:41:28 PCL has great examples 18:41:36 ASau [~user@95-28-62-161.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:41:49 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-156-1-242.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:42:11 p_l|home, ok 18:42:30 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-147-30-225.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:42:40 mitre [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 18:42:46 protocol-buffers are pretty good, but I've only tried them with C# 18:43:11 you good write the octets to a file assuming there is a decent CL implementation 18:43:15 well, those formats have the issue of usually not mapping directly to all types in CL 18:43:58 with json , things are working well 18:44:08 only issue is the file names 18:44:12 cl-store + st-fun takes care of most datatypes in CL, but otoh it's the same thing that caused DOC and similar formats... 18:44:19 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255513.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:44:19 -!- jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-152-179-68.range109-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:44:56 msgpack claims great space efficiency 18:45:13 EBML makes for a nice extensible binary structure format 18:46:24 kushal: if it's storing application 'objects' that you're thinking about, Gsharp shows one way to use the reader/printer. 18:47:08 splittist, I am storing simple data types , list , strings , hash tables 18:48:57 well, I can understand having issues with hashtables, but they can be serialized into alists or plists 18:49:21 alexandria has necessary functions prewritten 18:49:31 one can also achieve a lot with read macros 18:49:42 ok 18:49:44 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu136.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:49:57 today had some trouble with cl-who macros 18:50:18 (like read-macro that would recreate a hashtable, easy to find on the net) 18:50:49 -!- hlavaty [~user@95-88-27-48-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:51:15 LispWorks Personal edition is out for free (as in beer) 18:51:30 brb 18:51:34 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:53:07 joeygibson [~joeygibso@c-98-230-153-52.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:50 kushal: did you try elephant ? 18:55:11 quasi_, don't know about it, searching 18:55:32 quasi_, finally I found you somewhere online :) 18:56:04 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp3255.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:56:17 kushal: haha. checking out this new service called irccloud ... 18:56:22 -!- gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-36-140-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 18:56:28 quasi_, pm 18:57:41 If a quoted alist is copied with copy-alist, can the copy be modified safely with set and friends? 18:57:52 (can the contents of the conses, that is) 18:58:07 (not any of the objects in the conses themselves) 18:58:18 Quadrescence: that's what the documentation of copy-alist suggests to me. 18:58:47 d'oh, I skimmed right past the examples 19:00:41 Genosh [~Genosh@133.Red-81-33-93.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:55 Hi. 19:01:40 -!- mk2` [~user@159.92.64.6] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:02:02 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:03:41 I'm trying some things on a repl and wondering if the result is specified by the CL standard or it's a bug in the system i'm using. 19:04:01 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:04:10 I'm afraid of opening a ticket for no reason, so i thought i may as well ask here before. 19:04:21 Genosh: the suspense is killing me! what did you try? 19:04:24 ? `(2 ,. (+ 2 3)) 19:04:24 (2 . 5) 19:04:32 And the other one: 19:04:36 ? `(2 . (,+ 2 3)) 19:04:36 (2 NIL 2 3) 19:04:36 ? `(2 . (,+ 2 3)) 19:04:36 (2 (LIST* 2 (LIST* + '(2 3))) 2 3) 19:04:46 Genosh: please use paste.lisp.org next time 19:05:01 Sorry, I'll do next time, thanks. 19:05:20 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@ip-89-176-11-41.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:05:26 The system i'm using is CCL (latest win version). 19:05:37 clhs + 19:05:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm 19:05:43 ,. is like ,@ except it's using nconc instead of append to do the splicing. 19:05:46 see "variable" 19:06:01 (I think. I never actually use it.) 19:06:33 Thanks, i'm ignorant enough to never read of it. Sorry. 19:07:20 Genosh: were you just playing around with putting commas in different places? 19:07:22 I thought it was some corner case of unquote and the dot separator. :) 19:07:32 Xach: Yes, just trying weird things. 19:07:42 He's fuzzing CL! 19:07:54 (to compare results from my interpreter and a widely used one) 19:08:27 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-154-202.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:57 Thanks, it's now clearer to me how it works. :) 19:12:13 Have fun! 19:12:21 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@133.Red-81-33-93.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 19:12:36 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-205-189.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13:52 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-178-205-189.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:41 *tcr* despairs of not having (loop  finally collect (something)) 19:15:59 -!- spcshpop` [~user@c-71-231-165-31.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:17:07 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu136.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:17:11 you could just use (collecting (loop ... finally (collect (something)))) 19:17:41 fsvo "just" 19:18:38 for the value of "just" where collecting is a macro that exists. :) 19:18:50 kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:19:29 in the loop's main clauses I want to use LOOP's list accumulation clauses 19:19:58 and your example does not really improve much over (append (loop ) (list (something))) 19:22:23 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:28 spcshpopr8r [~user@c-71-231-165-31.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:39 tcr: Use a nice inefficient NCONC after the loop? 19:24:07 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 19:24:27 tcr: (collecting ... (loop))? (: 19:24:33 Odds are you're not working on performance-critical code and that won't make or break your performance. 19:25:10 mk2 [~user@159.92.64.6] has joined #lisp 19:25:56 Does format have functionality to iterate over a string character by character? Looking over CLHS I only saw iteration over lists, not sequences... 19:25:58 sadeness [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has joined #lisp 19:26:04 onteria|i7: it doesn't. 19:26:09 -!- sadeness_ [~zebadaia@altlinux/developer/sadeness] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:26:40 Xach: darn :/ use loop instead I suppose? 19:26:49 onteria|i7: what do you want to do? 19:27:06 onteria: a quickfix kind of way would be to (coerce 'list) 19:27:09 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host86-148-89-226.range86-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:27:11 Xach:onterial|i7: um, is that true? See http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_abae.htm 19:27:14 eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:27:17 Xach: Character frequency 19:27:18 You could use (map 'nil (lambda (character) do-stuff) my-string) 19:27:26 onteria|i7: loop for char across string 19:27:44 hargettp: the question seemed to me to be about format, not loop. 19:28:02 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.163.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:28:17 indeed 19:28:19 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-147-30-225.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:28:19 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 19:29:02 onteria|i7: how would FORMAT help you with character frequencies? 19:29:18 Xach: er.. sorry misdirected that :/ This was just a simple exercise for printing characters one by one each on a different line 19:29:58 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.198.214] has joined #lisp 19:30:18 onteria|i7: (map 'nil #'print my-string) 19:30:24 ciaranb [~ciaran@5acba966.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:55 Uh, d'oh. That's not exactly right. 19:31:39 (map 'nil (lambda (character) (write-char character) (terpri)) "test") 19:32:06 (format t "~{~{~A~^ - ~}~%~}" (map 'list alphabet frequencies)) 19:32:20 erm, (map 'list #'list ...) 19:33:44 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:33:48 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:02 Hexstream: Ah there we go that's what I needed. Thanks! 19:34:04 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 19:34:10 No problem! 19:36:45 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 19:37:37 -!- eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:38:25 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 19:39:35 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-218-176.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 19:41:07 eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 19:41:39 chemuduguntar [~user@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:04 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:41 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:44:03 do you want codepoint frequency or character frequency? 19:44:24 that only gives you codepoint frequency. :) 19:44:57 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 19:48:34 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:42 ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-108-68-163-181.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:49 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 19:49:36 Well, given that you can determine the ratio of codepoints to characters for a given encoding fairly easily... 19:50:14 timor1 [~timor@port-92-195-52-232.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:51:43 can loop iterators iterate independently? e.g., something along the lines of: (loop for i in '(1 2) for j in '(a b) collect (cons i j)) ==> ((1 . a) (1 . b) (2 . a) (2 . b)) ; I know this is NOT what this particular snippet does, it gives ((1 . a) (2 . b)), just asking for that equiv. functionality 19:51:54 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-23-154-202.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:52:27 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Client Quit] 19:53:01 "encoding" is talking about the wrong level of abstraction 19:53:19 I was assuming the unicode alphabet 19:53:37 Quadrescence: nest loops 19:53:51 Quadrescence: (loop .. do (loop ...)) 19:55:10 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has joined #lisp 19:55:57 And unicode has combining marks. So if you want to, for instance, count á as an á instead of as #\combining_acute_accent and #\a... 19:56:04 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:56:15 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 19:56:29 -!- nick1 is now known as nickaugust 19:57:00 Quadrescence: So you want to do a cartesian join? 19:57:06 yeah 19:57:13 Cartesian product, I mean. 19:57:24 -!- ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-108-68-163-181.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 19:57:26 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 19:57:30 I really need to read more, i still dont even know most of the basic constructs of lisp :) 19:57:30 (apply #'append (loop for i in '(1 2 3 4) collecting (loop for j in '(a b c d) collecting (cons i j)))) is one way per dlowe's suggestion 19:57:39 I happen to have written a function to do just that in my base utilities library, I'll paste it. 19:57:40 ramus [~ramus@adsl-108-68-163-181.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:11 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:58:37 Quadrescence: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117139 19:59:09 I wrote it a long time ago so quality is not guaranteed ;P 19:59:50 oconnore [~eric@wsip-70-168-242-70.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:25 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:00:55 morphling [~stefan@95.117.106.224] has joined #lisp 20:01:01 (cartesian-product '((a b) (1 2))) => ((A 1) (A 2) (B 1) (B 2)) 20:02:10 yes, I see, neato 20:02:34 -!- iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-150-188.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:02:44 (alexandria:map-product #'list '(a b) '(1 2)) 20:03:12 adeht: Yeah, but clearly reinventing the wheel is the tradition in lisp 20:03:33 Sometimes you end up with a better wheel! 20:03:38 :) 20:03:43 map-product is the better wheel here 20:03:53 No doubt. 20:04:05 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:33 I'm having trouble reconciling that Alexandria is supposedly "conservative", and yet it has tons and tons of utilities for EVERYTHING. 20:04:38 -!- ciaranb [~ciaran@5acba966.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 20:04:48 -!- ASau [~user@95-28-62-161.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:03 conservative utilities 20:05:22 ASau [~user@95-28-62-161.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:05:34 stassats: do you agree that LOOP is the most conservative utility? 20:05:49 Uh??? 20:05:55 ;) 20:06:12 Quadrescence: i'm too conservative to answer your questions 20:06:18 LOOP is anything but conservative. Unless your criteria for "conservativeness" is "Being part of Common Lisp." 20:06:22 stassats: haha 20:07:08 conservativeness is when you add it to your code it stays fresh longer 20:07:10 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-127-94.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:23 preservative? 20:08:04 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:05 I used to artificially hate LOOP until I realized it lets me be "lazy" 20:08:33 I don't use LOOP and I'm even lazier. 20:09:05 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-45-66.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:09:21 LOOP is the looping construct of the Swiss Army. The one mounted on tracks with big damn engine, but still. 20:09:39 haha 20:10:50 loops lets you be lazy, you can easily choose friends based upon to which agenda they are subscribed, "loop is an abomination" or "loop is great" 20:11:09 LOOP is a great abomination! 20:11:13 The only reason LOOP is appealing is because of small but significant lackings in the rest of Common Lisp. Particularly with respect to processing of alists (both types), plists, accumulation and some other things. 20:11:25 nyef is friends with all, hehe 20:11:40 I remember reading PAIP section about a semi-loop implementation.. it didn't contain all the features, of course, but it was really simple 20:11:44 or a foe with all 20:11:53 I just see it as equivalent to a list comprehension of other languages 20:11:57 well, nearly equiv 20:12:49 LOOP is like humanity. We're great, eldritch horrors of doom ^_- 20:13:11 loop is like bad analogy 20:13:15 -!- Faed [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:13:17 yep :P 20:13:19 stassats: haha 20:13:57 LOOP is a walled-garden that looks nothing like anything else in Common Lisp. You have to rewrite everything in its style if you want to use even one of its features. WTF. 20:14:01 anyway, why the hate on LOOP? true, it can be weird and unwieldy, but I ended up teaching people about looping constructs in other languages by walking them through LOOP expansion 20:14:12 Well, "everything" as in "your looping construct". 20:14:21 (well, LOOP and DOLIST) 20:14:22 stassats: As in, it works sometimes, but often leaves people feeling slightly annoyed? 20:14:40 I don't think LOOP is bad. If I'd change anything about loop, it'd be the addition of more () around clauses 20:14:53 (addition of more) 20:14:56 Iterate does that. 20:15:12 It does nothing to fix the fundamental problems of loop. 20:15:22 I don't remember if ITERATE is standard 20:15:33 If you try to fix the fundamental problems of LOOP, you end up with something that is nothing like it at all. 20:15:37 It isn't. 20:15:42 series! series! 20:16:07 iterate did have some nice ideas, like possibility to implement new iteration "drivers" (which SERIES also had) 20:16:23 I'm sure series is great, but it's not really conservative with respect with everything else in Common Lisp. 20:16:23 oh boy oh boy why did they have to call it a series. Being a pseudo-mathematician (in the sense of "i kind of do math"), SERIES is just an annoying name :( 20:16:41 *_3b* thinks the biggest problem with LOOP is people complain about it on irc too much :( 20:17:01 Any SLIME dev care to discuss an implementation issue? 20:17:14 _3b: haha come on complaining brings people together (sometimes) when the complaints are common 20:17:15 I blame the user 20:17:27 People complain because it's at the intersection of "powerful", "popular" and "annoying", and there's currently no viable alternative. Though in a few there's there will be if you ask me. 20:17:31 <_3b> Quadrescence: it also makes the channel less useful 20:17:38 luis: what issue? 20:17:39 in a few days* 20:17:57 _3b: :( as opposed to being silent? 20:18:01 there should be #loopmite 20:18:07 <_3b> Quadrescence: exactly 20:18:19 fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:22 ha 20:18:33 <_3b> Quadrescence: 'silent' doesn't require effort to determin if it is pointless noise, or something worth paying attention to 20:18:33 I almost grabbed the rope and slime hat out of my wardrobe today but was then disgusted by swank-fancy-inspector.lisp 20:18:43 _3b: that is true 20:18:52 -!- fade is now known as Fade 20:19:16 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.198.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:19:22 _3b: That is discussion is as old as the standard itself :-) 20:19:38 <_3b> tcr: the loop one or the irc SNR one? 20:19:53 McCarthy doesn't like loop 20:20:02 I missed we already moved on to meta discussion :-) 20:20:08 stassats: hahaha, it was funny listening to his interview 20:20:17 something like "I don't like that loop thing" 20:20:21 stassats, tcr: slime-toggle-trace-fdefinition was recently stripped of its C-u C-c C-t smartness that enabled tracing methods, labels, etc. I'd like to enable the old behaviour through a contrib, how would you recommend doing that? Is redefining the function acceptable? 20:20:35 I think the code was moved into slime-parse.el 20:20:43 and guy was like "what loop thing, you mean LOOP the loop macro" 20:20:45 could that be true? 20:20:48 tcr: indeed, but it's not hooked into anything is it? 20:20:49 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.168.176] has joined #lisp 20:20:57 and mccarthy is like "yea whatever next question" 20:21:07 Ask the guy who moved it there 20:22:00 tcr: well, I don't see any hooks. :) I want to send a patch, and would appreciate advice on the best approach to hook it up. 20:22:30 luis: Sure ask about it on the mailing list 20:22:43 Fair enough. Thanks. 20:23:10 Power to the users 20:23:18 Hi, I want to convert a consecutive mem-region of floats into simple-array-single-float. Could anyone point me to the right functions in sbcl, that create arrays? I know this isn't safe and I shouldn't do it. I just want to learn HOW I can do it. I want to fouriertransform a 2048x2048x128 array and then access the 2048x2048 slices without copying (displacement doesn't generate simple-arrays). 20:23:37 -!- davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:24:02 mk2: it's simpler to transform an array of single floats into a C pointer to floats. 20:24:40 is (progv '(*x* ..) ..) same as (let ((*x* ..) ..) (declare (special *x*)) ..) ? 20:24:47 mk2: do index calculation manually? 20:25:50 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:04 mitre: Conceptually? 20:26:29 pkhuong: Yes, but I want to try the reverse now. 20:26:31 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:26:48 tcr: huh? 20:27:14 Do you mean conceptually the same, or language lawyering the same? 20:27:51 mk2: do you want to copy or do you want to displace a lisp array into it? 20:27:56 stassats: That would be the portable way, I guess. But I would like to just use (aref img j i) to access the array. 20:28:29 *nyef* wonders if SBCL has a transform for PROGV with a constant symbol list. 20:28:52 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:28:55 tcr: if you have time, both 20:29:19 mk2: simpel arrays have a 2 word header. 20:29:38 unless you're ready to insert some padding in your layout, you can't do it. 20:29:43 iwillig [~ivan@dyn-128-59-151-44.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 20:29:45 p_l|home: I allocate a huge 3d array and then I want to access slices of it as 2d arrays. 20:30:00 mitre: One obvious difference is that the former does not allow declarations. (let ((*x* ) ) (declare (special *x* )) (progn )) would deal with that detail 20:30:04 mitre: it's the same as (progv '(*x*) '(10) (locally (declare (special *x*)) ...)) 20:30:18 pkhuong: Where can I see that layout in the code? Is a word 64byte on amd64? I would add padding, no problem. 20:30:30 stassats: not quite, is it? 20:31:14 *p_l|home* ponders extensible-arrays equivalent to extensible-sequences 20:31:15 mk2: src/compiler/generic/objdef.lisp 20:31:25 tcr: what isn't? 20:31:46 pkhuong: Is it in src/compiler/generic/objdef.lisp (define-primitive-object (array ... ? 20:31:54 progv takes forms* no declarations 20:32:16 tcr: and locally is a form 20:32:27 so? 20:32:29 there's a couple examples floating around; jsnell's blog post about mmapping vectors in, or something like . 20:32:32 don't see your point 20:32:38 neither do i see your 20:32:44 francogrex [~user@109.130.189.103] has joined #lisp 20:33:05 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:33:13 Hi all. I'm trying to find a lisp based latex replacement. I've found so far the Exscribe package, by Fare. Can you point me some other options? Thanks! 20:33:16 (progv (foo) (bar) (declare (optimize speed)) is syntactically invalid, but your expansion would make it valid afaics 20:33:58 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:04 gozek: ... why? LaTeX isn't horrible in and of itself. 20:34:07 gozek: there isn't anything that could be considered a LaTeX replacement, maybe outside of few complete applications that won't make it into your hands, but there's cl-typesetting which might work for what you need. 20:34:14 You have an expansion the other way around? 20:34:15 tcr: wasn't we searching an equivalent for (let () (declare special))? 20:34:16 Eh whatever 20:34:37 pkhuong: Cool, thanks. Is the example for 32 bit? 20:34:47 mk2: scroll down a bit. 20:35:19 nyef: i'm looking for something sexp-based so I can parse it myself 20:35:30 pkhuong: Ahh, just realised. Thanks. 20:35:34 nyef: parse and/or extend 20:35:39 stassats: yes, I was looking for that, seems progv won't help me save typing 20:35:41 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:48 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:36:07 mitre: you were really considering using progv to type less? oh my 20:36:07 seangrove [~user@173.150.125.78] has joined #lisp 20:36:14 gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-36-140-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:15 craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:14 p_l|home: I assume that everything I find won't replace it completely, but is no big deal as long as I can extend it myself (hope). Thanks for the suggestion! 20:38:03 stassats: yeah, dumb 20:39:01 _3b: ps:create did the trick :) But these things are only available inside of (parenscript:ps ...) - makes it hard to find :( 20:40:13 seangrove: for JSON, there's also cl-json, yason, rjson and st-json (lately, my personal preference went to cl-json, at least for my work on data from freebase.com) 20:40:54 jasdevsingh [~jasdevsin@122.176.169.148] has joined #lisp 20:41:48 where is rjson? 20:42:06 mk2: also, objects must be aligned on a double-word (i.e. 128 bit on x86-64) boundary. 20:42:30 Xach: on common-lisp.net, part of several other projects 20:44:29 Xach: http://common-lisp.net/project/suave/git/rjson/ 20:44:50 pkhuong: Hmm, I guess that is no problem as I start with an array that originally came from make-array. 20:44:59 p_l|home: there's also jsown, which is supposed to be quite fast. 20:44:59 part of the suave suite of libs (no idea whether the parenscript-related ones work with "mainline" parenscript) 20:45:31 sykopomp: I ended up using cl-json because it nicely translated JSON objects into alists without any further prodding :) 20:45:48 the awful part about dealing with JSON in CL is that at least two of the libraries you listed have a JSON package nickname :( 20:45:54 yeah 20:46:16 cl-json actually has it as the name, not nickname, afaik 20:46:24 anyway, afk 20:46:24 p_l|home: yason has served me best so far, but I've got jsown on my queue. It might replace Yason as my current preferred library if it performs as well as advertised. 20:47:56 sykopomp: yason would have worked for me as well, it's just that cl-json managed to be the first one I've checked when I was interested in having data parsed, not playing with writing an API to MQL :) 20:48:18 fair enough 20:48:23 can we arrange to have st-json renamed to cl-json? 20:48:32 antifuchs: there's cl-json already 20:48:34 hahaha 20:48:41 ah 20:48:44 right :D 20:48:45 afk 20:48:47 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:49:00 last time I checked, cl-json still had a bug where it would serialize numbers in a way no other json impl could understand 20:50:38 -!- marijnjh [~user@p5DDB29F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:52:43 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:49 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:35 -!- mk2 [~user@159.92.64.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:58 what functions can I use to write a line of text to an sb-sys:fd-stream? 20:54:03 mejja [~chatzilla@c-5bb9e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:54:11 write-line does not work 20:54:36 sepi: which error message do you get? 20:54:46 (I think fd-streams should handle like any other stream...) 20:55:30 # is not a character output stream. 20:55:44 ah. you have to open the stream for writing (-: 20:55:45 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:07 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 20:56:15 antifuchs: It's the streams in the process structure returned by sb-ext:run-program 20:56:29 which stream are you using then? process-output should let you write to it 20:56:35 ah 20:56:37 wait. 20:56:59 the stream may be using an (unsigned-byte 8) elemente type 20:57:16 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 20:57:31 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:34 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 20:57:55 urandom_ [~user@p548A6B8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:03 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:07 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 20:58:22 sepi: hm, write-line worked for me on sbcl 1.0.43 20:58:52 (write-line "foo" (process-input proc)) ; with (setf proc (run-program "cat" nil :wait nil :output :stream :input :stream)) 20:59:16 antifuchs: I'll have a look if I'm not writing to the wrong stream 20:59:40 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6B8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:59:59 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:00:04 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 21:01:30 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:38 antifuchs: looks like I got the direction wrong (I think it was the other way around in clisp) and also used finish-output like mentioned in the clisp manual 21:02:56 heh. 21:03:11 yeah, easy to mix them up. process-input is the stream that the process is reading from. 21:05:40 -!- milanj [~milanj_@178-223-153-138.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:06:53 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:55 antifuchs: thanks for your help! 21:07:02 yw (: 21:09:32 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A6B8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:10:37 Hmm, what's the easiest way to get CCL 1.6 on Windows? I'd like to avoid svn on windows if I can. 21:10:37 Xach: does quicklisp include the PCL practicals yet? 21:10:43 antifuchs: No. 21:11:00 why? (: 21:11:10 does it have any outside deps? 21:11:40 antifuchs: It just didn't occur to me. 21:11:45 ah ((-: 21:11:57 *Xach* loses track of things without github issues opened 21:12:00 minion: add blt as "Basic Lisp Techniques", Cooper - 2003 Franz, Inc. at http://www.franz.com/resources/educational_resources/cooper.book.pdf 21:12:00 OK, done. 21:12:38 I've been asked to add a bit of franz's weight behind lispbox again, and they're switching to ql now 21:12:41 I'll open a github issue 21:13:06 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:14:08 but what about klornuclapica? 21:14:28 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:14:32 hehehehe 21:15:05 it would seem quicklisp has superseded clornuclappaica in both functionality and community support (: 21:15:13 which, to be fair, wasn't very hard (-: 21:18:55 If I wanted to write a networked lisp listener like swank, ignoring all the debugger/inspector stuff, am I right in thinking the only thing I couldn't do in portable lisp is to catch (break)? 21:19:59 clhs *debugger-hook* 21:20:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debugg.htm 21:20:21 pjb: *debugger-hook* is not used for break 21:20:29 hence *invoke-debugger-hook* on sbcl 21:20:39 hehe, i already have that link open... 21:20:42 thanks though 21:20:50 "break binds *debugger-hook* to nil before attempting to enter the debugger." 21:20:57 Right. "break binds *debugger-hook* to nil before attempting to enter the debugger." Bummer... 21:21:04 yep 21:21:10 -!- symbole` is now known as symbole 21:21:30 oconnore: that, and programming errors would be one thing keeping your program from returning to the repl (: 21:22:17 gigamonkey [~user@76.167.162.97] has joined #lisp 21:22:44 Is there a way to.. erm, intern a symbol, but not to any package? 21:22:56 I'm ending up with weird side effects because of it 21:23:00 seangrove: make-symbol creates an uninterned symbol 21:23:30 antifuchs: Cool. I think I will pull some ideas from conium/swank, so hopefully the second part won't be an issue :) I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything... 21:23:53 seangrove: but (eq (make-symbol "foo") (make-symbol "foo")) ; -> NIL 21:24:08 antifuchs: eh? really?? 21:24:21 seangrove: it's uninterned, what did you expect (: 21:24:31 *seangrove* sobs gentley into his hands 21:24:35 seangrove: (let ((sym (make-symbol "foo"))) (eq sym sym)) ; => t 21:24:36 symbols are utterly confusing 21:24:45 And here I thought they were the first thing I learned about :P 21:24:54 -!- e-user [~e-user@port-87-234-24-237.static.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:24:56 they are easy if you consider only interned ones 21:25:25 so here's the deal: what make-symbol returns is a fresh symbol with that symbol-name. that symbol isn't interned. 21:25:33 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:25:33 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 21:25:33 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 21:25:46 so if you call it again with the same symbol name, you get a new symbol with that symbol-name, but it won't be the same symbol you got before 21:26:09 seangrove: this is usually "what are you *really* trying to do?" territory 21:26:17 Xach: I agree 21:26:38 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.189.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:06 -!- oconnore [~eric@wsip-70-168-242-70.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [] 21:27:31 *gigamonkey* eagerly awaits hearing what seangrove is really trying to do 21:27:40 *seangrove* tries to collect his thought 21:27:51 He's using Lisp. It's clearly "world domination". 21:28:05 I essentially have an ORM in a package that I want to be magical, a la ActiveRecord 21:28:55 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Quit: hoemwurk tiem] 21:30:00 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.228] has joined #lisp 21:30:33 seangrove: where do the symbols factor in? 21:30:50 *gigamonkey* predicts what seangrove wants is keywords. 21:32:49 -!- novaburst [~novaburst@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:33:00 Ok, here we go 21:33:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/117143 21:34:25 Even when I (defmodel update ...) in the lash package, all of the symbols belong to vana, so I have to prefix all the accessors with vana:: 21:35:09 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.168.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:36:21 Train is just about in, I'll be back in ~20 minutes... 21:36:29 *seangrove* hopes keywords are the silver bullet here 21:37:00 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.50.37] has joined #lisp 21:39:20 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:39:38 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-118-114.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:42 seangrove: you may also want to just use generic functions with methods with EQL specializers on the provided symbols. 21:40:42 dfox_ [~dfox@ip-89-176-11-41.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:40:56 Generally speaking, created symbols the way you do in that macro is a bad idea. 21:41:14 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:41:23 -!- seangrove [~user@173.150.125.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:42:41 -!- gonzojive [~red@adsl-75-36-140-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 21:43:08 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:43:12 gigamonkey: well... defstruct does it. 21:43:38 not that it justifies it. 21:43:50 Yeah, leading Lispers astray for years and years. 21:44:07 Seriously, DEFSTRUCT is a wart on the language in many ways. 21:44:20 (Though in practice it can have it's uses.) 21:44:23 it has its uses. 21:44:24 yeah 21:45:05 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.151.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:12 like, not being horribly inefficient. :) That's a pretty useful feature. 21:45:28 oh, standard-class isn't -that- bad. 21:45:38 but the difference is noticeable in some cases. 21:46:50 I know this is going to result in a biased answer, I'm wondering whether you think it would be beneficial for me to learn lisp, ive heard it can make you a better programmer in the way you think, basically my end goal is to learn javascript and become fluent with it (not just web dev) so some would say just start know but perhaps lisp will give me a better programming mind? i already know the syntax and some js just i havent had any proj 21:48:21 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:07 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:49:10 craiggles: learn them both! 21:49:16 craiggles: IME, knowing more programming languages never hurts (: 21:49:30 there's always something interesting there. 21:50:07 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:10 You may find Scheme to be closer to how JavaScript works than Common Lisp, though. 21:50:11 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 21:50:36 sykopomp: well i guess that is indeed a good suggestion, im not new to the programming scene its just im certainly not an advanced programmer as my problem is that i havent made anything, so learning both..i'd focus on lisp first. 21:50:46 -!- mejja [~chatzilla@c-5bb9e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 21:50:53 seangrov` [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:59 -!- xavierHart [~xavierHar@gateway/tor-sasl/xavierhart] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:51:01 well, i could learn scheme, i just need advice tbh 21:51:03 -!- seangrov` [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:28 craiggles: just pick something and learn it. Stick with it for a while. 21:51:46 but make sure you explore once you're comfortable with that one thing. 21:52:03 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 21:52:19 I do find that Lisp languages tend to be good for learning a wider variety of things at a time, though. 21:52:23 craiggles: Are you thinking about starting out with lisp? 21:52:29 I'd say that's a terrible idea 21:52:33 Scheme's where it's at :) 21:52:43 well, not starting out. 21:52:48 seangrove: I started with Common Lisp. Worksforme. 21:52:56 same here 21:53:09 I mean, I know the progromming basics, I could be handed the docs for a new language and manage 21:53:20 sykopomp, impressive - I did a few CL projects for awhile and went back to scheme for a long time because of all the additional complexity 21:53:43 -!- onteria|i7 [~onteria@rrcs-64-183-118-2.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:46 It took me awhile to get very good at scheme, and then when I came across CL again, it just made a lot more sense 21:53:46 but ive had no actual projects, biggest and funnest thing ive done was my irc bot with ruby, and that learned me a lot and i enjofed it. 21:53:57 And there were a lot fewer mental hoops to jump through at that point 21:54:06 craiggles: you could write your own irc bot in cl (: 21:54:14 seangrove: mental hoops teach you more :) 21:54:19 *gigamonkey* needs to revive gigabot. 21:54:21 craiggles: I've used cl-irc before, and it's great fun (: 21:54:45 antifuchs: that'd be a good idea, i just need to learn the basics first. 21:54:52 been going through your book gigamonkey 21:54:56 minion: tell craiggles about pcl-book 21:54:57 craiggles: have a look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:55:00 oh, good ((: 21:55:21 well, looking at the code and then trying out myself, i do need to read it though. 21:55:21 one other thing that's cool is quicklisp: http://quicklisp.org 21:55:33 Scheme doesn't have Quicklisp! 21:55:36 it helps you get libraries 21:56:09 craiggles, Chicken Scheme's eggs are very nice, similar to ruby gems 21:56:21 Though Scheme does have Snow: http://snow.iro.umontreal.ca/ 21:56:37 But quicklisp made CL's "packages" much, much nicer 21:56:38 oh awesome 21:56:48 i think ill stick with cl than scheme though. 21:56:56 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 21:57:03 that's cool, craiggles (: 21:57:03 craiggles: happy hacking, then. 21:57:29 haha thanks, i just need to make something (yeah i complain more than anything) 21:59:36 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:00:09 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:01:14 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.219.27] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:01:19 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:02:34 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:06:15 gcv [~gcv@cpe-24-193-231-103.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:19 bgs100_ [~ian@h224.172.17.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:47 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:06:51 -!- bgs100_ [~ian@h224.172.17.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:07:09 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:08:22 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#lisp 22:49:33 gigamonkey: Were keywords the silver bullet for what I wanted? :) 22:50:04 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:51:47 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:54:04 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:54:17 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:57:08 -!- mitre [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 22:57:54 can a silver bullet go through silver armour... 22:58:31 it goes through werewolves just fine (: 22:58:32 Heh, sounds like the Chinese word for conflict 22:58:52 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:03 seangrove: I think my second suggestion was more right. 22:59:35 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:59:45 Instead of consing up a name and then DEFUNing it, use the symbol the user (of the macro) gave you and define an EQL-method on some GF. 23:00:56 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:17 -!- joeygibson [~joeygibso@c-98-230-153-52.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: joeygibson] 23:01:57 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:02:45 Silver bullets? Ag! 23:03:22 nyef: hahahaha 23:05:49 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-60-225-60.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:01 -!- morphling [~stefan@95.117.106.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:38 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:07:16 -!- majoh [~axiom@plum.csbnet.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:07:20 axiom [~axiom@plum.csbnet.se] has joined #lisp 23:07:31 -!- axiom is now known as majoh 23:08:40 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:31 powerje [~powerj@adsl-76-192-139-229.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:05 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-76-192-139-229.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:38 Is there a way to specialize methods on a metaclass? 23:14:14 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:14:18 (defmethod some-method ((class my-metaclass)) ...) 23:14:29 class metaobject class*** 23:14:38 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 23:14:49 sykopomp: Fantastic. Thanks! 23:15:16 ...sure 23:15:33 minion: please tell redline6561 about amop 23:15:33 redline6561: direct your attention towards amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the specification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 23:16:00 redline6561: You should grab a copy of that book and bury your face in it for a while. :) 23:17:42 sykopomp: Whoops. I'm quite tired. I have a copy of AMOP but still need to bury my face in it a while.' 23:18:11 sykopomp: I need to specialize on *all* subclasses of the metaclass. Not the metaclass itself. :-/ 23:18:46 redline6561: The code I showed you will apply that method to all subclasses of the metaobject class as well. 23:18:53 just like any regular old method definition. 23:19:14 sykopomp: Really? I must be doing something wrong. Thanks. 23:19:39 redline6561: you probably are, since you need to actually pass a class to that method to get it to dispatch on the class -- not just pass it the object. 23:19:40 <|3b|`> redline6561: i suspect what you are doing wrong is phrasing your question poorly :p 23:20:30 maybe you want to call the generic function on (class-of ) rather than 23:20:40 redline6561: see slot-value-using-class, for example. 23:20:45 but really, you should read AMOP. 23:21:00 sykopomp: Will do. 23:21:17 |3b|`: Duly noted. 23:22:20 I'm writing a method for a weblocks defgeneric that needs to specialize on instances of postmodern's dao-class metaclass. 23:22:50 -!- eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:22:53 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@ip-89-176-11-41.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:23:10 does the generic function expect a specific class metaobject argument? 23:25:13 No. It has a method specializing on standard-object already though. 23:25:43 sykopomp: object-id is the method in question. http://bitbucket.org/S11001001/weblocks-dev/src/f14b59da2238/src/store/store-utils.lisp 23:27:31 oh come on. Is it seriously expecting standard-object to just have that slot? 23:27:32 pft 23:28:19 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:28:22 sykopomp: Yeah, I know. I had a similar reaction. :-/ 23:30:18 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:32:15 cmdrk [~lincoln@dynamic-162-249.natpool.uc.edu] has joined #lisp 23:32:46 -!- cmdrk is now known as h 23:32:52 -!- h is now known as cmdrk 23:33:56 redline6561: it's a common pattern in metaclass-using code to have a method object-id(instance) and a method object-id-using-class(class instance) that can specialize on the class of that instance 23:34:16 hi folks. I have SBCL 1.0.40 installed in Fedora 14, and when I try to (require 'asdf), I get "NIL". Is this normal? I expected ("ASDF") as output. However, I'm a complete newcomer to Lisp. 23:34:24 and it looks like he could specialize it on T if he really felt like it, too. 23:34:25 hee 23:34:40 oh wait, no. 23:35:26 cmdrk: it's likely that asdf was already loaded 23:36:38 adeht: ah, that seems to be the case. I ran (asdf:asdf-version) and I get "2.003", so I assume the package is loaded. 23:37:43 thank you 23:40:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-146-213.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40:55 -!- ch077179 [~urs@adsl-89-217-151-8.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:42:45 davertron [~david@c-24-218-166-166.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:40 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:50:37 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255513.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:51:57 ajmorgan [~ajmorgan@70.102.51.102] has joined #lisp 23:52:13 mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:39 -!- craiggles [~craig@host81-141-115-9.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:53:31 what is the proper way (the one without an error in sbcl ;)) to do (defun multiply-by (lambda (n) (lambda (y) (* y n)))) 23:54:03 currently I get "Required argument is not a symbol: (N) 23:54:14 clhs defun 23:54:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm 23:54:15 >_> 23:55:09 kanru [~kanru@118-168-236-72.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:52 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:56:45 am I not allowed to put a lambda inside another lambda? 23:58:04 ajmorgan: the parameter list 23:58:19 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 23:58:26 -!- cmdrk [~lincoln@dynamic-162-249.natpool.uc.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]