00:01:23 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:02:18 jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 00:02:59 paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-243.lpa.idec.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:12 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-92-28-98.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:24 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:04:26 Ah, damnit. I'm making a texinfo file with an index but when I press "i" to invoke Info-index, emacs says "No index". Any ideas? Google is failing me. 00:04:42 And #emacs too. 00:05:30 -!- iwillig [~ivan@ool-18b944f4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:08:40 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-213.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09:05 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-213.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:37 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:11:24 I hate trying to search for stuff and getting the speech impediment lisp back 00:11:30 "common" doesn't help much either :P 00:13:10 Perhaps "lisp programming" without the quotes. 00:13:17 -!- dfox_ [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-66.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:13:40 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-213.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:14:47 Hexstream: the best is trying to search for "talks" :D 00:17:17 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050064075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 00:18:26 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 00:18:35 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-222-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:18:41 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:51 slyrus__ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:45 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-222-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:19:48 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus 00:21:22 -!- sbt [~sbt@ti0092a340-0756.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-14.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:24:39 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-137.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 00:26:14 -!- lianj_ is now known as lianj 00:27:01 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-116-162.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:18 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-228-214.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:35:05 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d818970.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:35:17 -!- Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36:22 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.105.248.18] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:43:39 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 00:46:14 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.127.237.7] has joined #lisp 00:46:48 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:14 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@245-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:47:50 drdo: perhaps you've not done enough lisp searches. Google never gives me anything about speach... 00:54:04 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:55:39 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:03:49 -!- paradoja [~paradoja@acceso-cmp174-243.lpa.idec.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1] 01:05:44 new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 01:07:23 -!- ska`` [~user@ppp-58-8-220-84.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:07:45 hello, everyone 01:11:58 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:12:29 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:13:52 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:15:13 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:16 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.59.162] has joined #lisp 01:22:49 new-lisper: hello 01:23:53 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:27:54 hi, new-lisper 01:28:21 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:04 how are you going? 01:31:23 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:34:19 I'm doing fine, thanks 01:35:26 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:35:52 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-221-147.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:39:13 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.57.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:41:02 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.184.10] has joined #lisp 01:41:56 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:07 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.206.41] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:51:48 -!- new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has left #lisp 01:59:19 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 02:00:08 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279775076.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:00:21 Art` [~Art@84.23.48.99] has joined #lisp 02:06:04 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633882.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:06:45 -!- sdsds is now known as Your_Ugly 02:08:47 -!- Your_Ugly is now known as eXist 02:09:38 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.59.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:09:54 -!- eXist is now known as sdsds 02:15:50 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 02:17:14 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:18:49 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:19:43 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 02:19:56 huahua2 [~huahua2@118.124.227.173] has joined #lisp 02:22:14 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-1-149.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:22:18 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-75-86.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:25:10 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Quit: Puf!] 02:34:18 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 02:34:24 -!- schmx is now known as schmrkc 02:37:42 -!- jeti [~user@p548EADC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:43:50 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu208.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:50:21 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:52:29 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:43 -!- svk_ [~kaw@svk.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:52:54 svk_ [~kaw@svk.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 02:54:28 hadronzoo [~user@178.73.206.52] has joined #lisp 02:55:44 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:55:45 -!- hadronzoo [~user@178.73.206.52] has left #lisp 03:01:55 -!- Art` [~Art@84.23.48.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:22 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-50-124-160.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:15 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:50 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:20:37 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 03:22:37 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-153-50-34.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:24:43 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-59-167.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:24:43 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 03:28:24 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:29:19 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 03:30:23 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:35:12 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:37:33 Maahes [~Matthew@thestudy.us] has joined #lisp 03:38:55 Anyone care to take a moment to explain the value of macros and how they work. (Essentially I know they modify the program from within the program, but I don't understand the method, or why this is a useful thing.) 03:41:58 Maahes: they don't "modify the program", they generate it. 03:42:50 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:43:11 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:44:43 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 03:44:43 pkhuong_: Okay. 03:46:23 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:46:24 I mean, I don't want to make any ignorant assumption about their use, but I mean is the value of them that they can be reused to build generic structures in multiple programs? what's the value in this as opposed to libraries? 03:46:41 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:46:47 Maahes: You might read this. http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-building-a-unit-test-framework.html 03:47:08 Maahes: they're for building syntactic abstraction 03:47:15 As opposed to functional abstractions. 03:47:18 Anyone using parenscript? 03:47:41 If you want to say X and have it mean Y (usually because X is much more concise or clearly tied to some domain). 03:47:48 I.e. domain specific languages done right. 03:50:43 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 03:53:18 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 03:55:01 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 04:01:37 gigamonkey: okay I get the value now, but why isn't this more or less producible in any object oriented language? 04:01:57 I mean it looks to me like encapsulating methods inside of methods. 04:02:16 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 04:02:20 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-46-18.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:03:02 -!- mega1 [~quassel@2001:470:1f05:548:215:58ff:fe7d:773b] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:05:34 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-78-43.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:06:17 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:22 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@238-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:49 lemoinem [~swoog@90-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:20 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 04:09:32 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:11:39 Maahes: macros are mostly useful because they let you create your own syntax that corresponds more closely to the code's meaning. For instance, looping is expressed via macros in CL. One could do that with higher order functions or OOP, but it'd very probably be clumsy. 04:13:07 Maahes: no. syntactic abstraction is totally different. 04:13:20 Maahes: indeed. Macros allow you to implement syntactic abstraction. Have a look at http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 04:13:29 Though, that said, there are some uses of macros that can be done other ways. 04:14:03 Another example that shows more of the power of syntactic abstraction: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-parsing-binary-files.html 04:16:13 What that example shows is how you can take something syntactically very close to the spec for a binary file format and use macros to turn it into code that can read and write files in that format. 04:16:50 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:17:42 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:19:10 Good morning everyone! 04:19:24 *syntard* waves 04:19:27 Did you say "morning" ? 04:19:34 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 04:19:43 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:20:21 drdo: Yes, why? 04:20:41 04:20 doesn't qualify as morning :D 04:20:48 5:20 does. 04:20:59 Still doesn't 04:21:02 Early, but still. 04:24:00 gigamonkey: thank you ^_^ and everyone else who commented. 04:24:58 -!- az [~az@p5796CF4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:24:59 For some reason some parenscript macros don't work unless i :USE it 04:25:33 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.127.237.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:26:14 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-86-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:26:25 drdo: do you have an example? 04:26:39 (parenscript:ps (chain foo bar)) 04:26:42 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:00 drdo: you didn't import chain? 04:27:19 I didn't what? 04:27:25 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-142-59.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:27:37 ^ 04:28:22 ps:chain 04:29:11 oh, i see, i didn't know it worked like that 04:29:50 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:31:22 it's cl thing, really 04:32:16 I didn't know there was an actualy symbol for that 04:32:18 *actual 04:35:04 -!- inklesspen [~jon@inklesspen.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:35:08 -!- seejay [~seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:35:09 -!- jesusabdullah [~jesusabdu@li225-26.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:35:21 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:35:36 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-86-134.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:35:38 -!- qsun [~qsun@66.220.3.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:35:43 -!- rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:37:04 -!- stokachu [~user@nat/redhat/x-qhigzbvfqgqnmttk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:37:07 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-213.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:37:24 stokachu [~user@nat/redhat/x-ouguwezvhmvylbzh] has joined #lisp 04:40:27 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-221-147.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:59 dberg [~user@c-98-234-179-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:32 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-86-134.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:46:53 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:48:57 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:50:54 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-206-30-125.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:53:16 az [~az@p4FE4ECA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:37 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 04:55:56 I only see "tinaa-test" in quicklisp, but not "tinaa" ? 04:58:01 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 04:58:09 -!- Guest96643 [~deanz@64.241.87.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:58:41 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:59:30 Guest96643 [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:21 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-213.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:10 SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:38 -!- Guest96643 [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:05:53 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A37D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:07:06 syntard: try #quicklisp 05:07:09 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:07:52 it's ok, i'll put a ticket it 05:07:59 Guest96643 [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:10 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 05:11:38 -!- mek||malloc [~mek@12.230.222.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:15:01 hmm... slightly OT, but the channel is quiet: does anyone here have any experience with using OLPC with children, outside classroom environment? 05:16:54 I didn't but you might like this: http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_shows_how_kids_teach_themselves.html and this: http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_the_child_driven_education.html 05:17:17 p_l|home: my daughter uses it, kind of. 05:17:26 it's an ubuntu netbook remix i modified to suit her. 05:18:06 bougyman: with sugar, or with ubuntu as OS? 05:18:23 ubuntu netbook remix as the os. 05:18:35 ah 05:18:41 it's simlilar in function to olpc 05:18:41 I'm looking more towards the use of the Sugar environment 05:19:02 I was thinking of using one as educational tool for my sister 05:19:09 i tried sugar before and it failed for a few reasons. 05:20:16 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:20:32 Notice that in Sugata Mitra's experiments, he didn't use any specific OS (plain MS-Windows in this case). 05:21:09 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:46 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 05:27:32 ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 05:28:46 I was considering using one of the XO-1.5 for a kind of bootstrap effort to get my lil' sister to be computer literate in more than "I know how to surf and type" way 05:29:24 hi, is it possible to jump to the next iteration within a (loop for (name val) on properties by #'cddr when (stringp name) ***jump to next*** ...)? 05:30:12 ,clhs loop 05:30:26 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:31 homie: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/mac_loop.html 05:31:30 ignotus: I'd use (unless () (code normally executed)) and thus simply make the iteration skip the whole code block if the condition is fulfilled 05:31:48 afaik there's no equivalent of C's continue 05:32:05 p_l|home: all right, thanks. Just wanted to make sure:) 05:32:11 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.184.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:33:45 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:33:50 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.159.116] has joined #lisp 05:35:10 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 05:36:10 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:36:22 are there alternatives to tinaa? 05:39:33 afk 05:39:34 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:41:51 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@90-73-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:42:20 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-137.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:45:34 -!- Guest96643 [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:46:16 syntard: What kind of functionalit are you looking for. I have nothing to suggest for you, but I am interested in how systems are documented, so I would be interested in people's ideas about that. 05:47:10 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:47:18 chemuduguntar [765c1c62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.118.92.28.98] has joined #lisp 05:47:32 Guest96643 [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:09 sam1234 [~sam1234@ip72-200-158-231.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:00 -!- sam1234 [~sam1234@ip72-200-158-231.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 05:58:54 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:00:42 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.159.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:01:00 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 06:01:52 Can someone please read the CLHS entry for subst-if and tell me whether the description of the predicate means the same as "designator for a function"? 06:02:16 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.182.253] has joined #lisp 06:04:11 lemoinem [~swoog@56-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:17 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-57-185.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:05:30 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-75-86.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:06:03 -!- dberg [~user@c-98-234-179-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:06:39 psilord [~psilord@76.201.145.79] has joined #lisp 06:06:58 -!- psilord [~psilord@76.201.145.79] has left #lisp 06:11:14 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 06:12:34 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:14:09 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-137.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 06:15:26 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 06:16:50 -!- Guest96643 [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:18:13 Guest96643 [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:48 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:20:43 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 06:21:41 back 06:24:45 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:24:58 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 06:26:05 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Client Quit] 06:26:17 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 06:26:30 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:27:23 jesusabdullah [~jesusabdu@li225-26.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:27:36 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Client Quit] 06:27:49 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 06:28:55 -!- borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:31:20 -!- lnostdal [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:33:58 galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has joined #lisp 06:34:07 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@unaffiliated/bulibuta] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:39:01 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:44:27 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:45:10 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@56-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:51:39 -!- Maahes [~Matthew@thestudy.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:57:35 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:58:54 beach: they're begin more precise, indicating that the function must take one argument and return one generalized boolean value. 07:01:10 lnostdal [~Lars@218.80-202-49.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:01:29 pjb: That's not what I am asking, I am asking whether "a function or a name of a function" is the same thing as "a designator for a function". 07:03:33 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:53 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 07:04:57 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 07:06:09 The glossary entry for "function designator" seems to think so. 07:06:52 Zhivago: Thanks! I wonder why they used different wording on that page. 07:06:55 -!- pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:09:54 Ah. Well, it might include extended file designators. 07:10:28 daniel__ [~daniel@p5B326E7C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:30 what is an "extended file designator"? 07:10:42 setfs and lambdas, iirc. 07:10:55 "file"? Really? 07:11:07 er, function 07:11:13 Ah, OK. 07:13:16 hmm... a lisp which would export functions as files... hmmm 07:13:25 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082B16F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:13:37 the ultimate RPC? :D 07:14:40 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:20:51 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.127.237.7] has joined #lisp 07:22:39 OK, so "name of a function" can be a symbol or (setf symbol), whereas "function designator" excludes (setf symbol). Why would (setf symbol) be allowed as a predicate, especially since most functions named that way take at least two arguments, wheras the predicate only takes one. 07:23:45 Oh, wait, it doesn't say "name of a function". It says "a symbol that names a function", so that phrase seems totally equivalent to "function designator". 07:24:37 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 07:24:46 *beach* again wishes for an annotatable CLHS. 07:24:55 wasn't there someone working on that by the way? 07:26:11 Hi everyone! Hi beach! 07:26:40 hey drl. 07:30:07 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.182.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:31:47 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.52.125] has joined #lisp 07:32:44 hmmm... annotatable CLHS might be doable without breaking CLHS ToS 07:34:41 ceders [~ceders@99-28-3-42.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:53 place CLHS page into iframe, use JS to manipulate it... 07:36:56 spradnyesh [~pradyus@41.65.75.135] has joined #lisp 07:39:24 I'm trying to learn iterate (which I just downloaded with quicklisp last night). The manual doesn't have enough examples. What am I doing wrong here? http://paste.lisp.org/+2I6R 07:43:37 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:47:15 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:49:11 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:52:51 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@41.65.75.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:58:32 -!- zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:06:12 -!- ceders [~ceders@99-28-3-42.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:08:06 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vfysfzicitazquje] has joined #lisp 08:10:31 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:07 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:13:50 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-vfysfzicitazquje] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:22:11 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:24:17 -!- ignotus [~ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 08:31:06 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.79.62] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:32:13 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 08:33:39 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:21 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:37:51 -!- bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:38:14 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:31 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 08:40:39 lemoinem [~swoog@56-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:18 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 08:49:46 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 08:52:08 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:57:22 -!- SV_Nik [~ngkhatu@99-89-3-67.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:00:16 -!- koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:03:03 I would like to establish an order between the keyword arguments of sequence and list functions, in order to have a more uniform description in naming, docstring, and argument order of specialized version. Any opinions about this order? I am thinking of from-end, test, test-not, start, end, count, key. The Hyperspec is not very consisten about it. 09:03:14 *consistent 09:04:36 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.121.189] has joined #lisp 09:05:03 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:08:58 clhs loop 09:09:05 i like key test test-not start end from-end count 09:09:06 damn 09:09:33 by the frequency i use them and with grouping related keywords 09:13:40 You mean like putting from-end next to start and end? 09:14:10 and test-not next to test 09:14:29 Sure, but I think the CLHS always does that. 09:14:48 The rest is pretty random. 09:15:15 The CLHS *usually* has the key at the end. 09:15:17 if i were to sort it by frequency, test-not would be at the very end 09:15:21 But not always. 09:15:25 _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:15:25 stassats`: True. 09:16:58 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:17:29 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has joined #lisp 09:18:06 stassats`: Do you think key is more frequently used that test? 09:19:51 i use it quite often 09:20:46 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:22:29 I've never ever used from-end. don't know if that's because I'm not automatically aware of it (which is probably the case), it is rarely if ever needed, it has prohibitive complexity (with lists, say), or a combination of all three 09:22:48 er, four 09:23:09 cmm: :from-end doesn't necessarily traverse from end 09:23:10 anyway, just wanted to put in my rusty 2 cents 09:23:25 stassats`: true 09:23:40 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 09:28:27 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 09:28:37 The variable index of the slime manual doesn't mention anything. Is there a slime or swank variable to set to get the whole objects, and not abbreviated ones (a b ...) or "abc..." ? 09:28:51 OK a quick grep shows from-end to be useful for string (mostly pathname) and argument parsing. not the kind of code I habitually write, I guess :) 09:29:16 pjb: to get the whole objects where? 09:29:35 In the stack frames. 09:29:39 sldb 09:29:55 try swank:*sldb-printer-bindings* 09:30:12 Thanks. 09:30:38 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:31:16 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-55-206.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:33:02 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:34:18 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 09:36:03 which lisp lib has delay and force as in scheme? 09:36:14 SV_Nik [~ngkhatu@99-89-3-67.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:32 clazy 09:36:36 notsonerdysunny [~chatzilla@59.92.206.71] has joined #lisp 09:36:42 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.121.189] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:37:27 leo2007: otherwise it's trivial to implement the base mechanism. What's hard, is to have CL primitive force evaluation of their delayed arguments automatically . 09:37:53 -!- chemuduguntar [765c1c62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.118.92.28.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:38:06 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d20.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:00 beach: do you think LW would be open to suggestions to change the format of CLHS a little? (add id attribute to markup, at least...) 09:41:49 -!- bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: client closed in haste] 09:42:28 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:43:31 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 09:45:32 kingless [~user@adsl-242-219-75.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:36 -!- notsonerdysunny [~chatzilla@59.92.206.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:50:12 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:51:20 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 09:53:11 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@56-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:58:07 koollman [~samson_t@sp1.kooll.info] has joined #lisp 10:00:07 lemoinem [~swoog@56-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 10:00:44 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:01:05 H4ns`` [~user@pD4B9E4BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:43 -!- H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E24E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:05:04 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:06:29 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:06:29 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:09:31 HET2 [~diman@91.105.248.18] has joined #lisp 10:10:22 p_l|uni: I don't know, but I don't see why not, provided someone else is paying for it. 10:11:01 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:11:06 pjb: thanks. 10:11:37 cmm: from-end is useful in this case (reduce #'append lists :from-end t) to avoid quadratic behavior. 10:14:09 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:55 Given a well behaved implementation. 10:18:06 pjb: How so? 10:18:19 pjb: Do you man "conforming"? 10:19:34 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:45 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 10:30:23 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #lisp 10:32:35 josemanuel [~josemanue@221.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:47:47 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.110] has joined #lisp 10:51:48 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@221.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 10:52:51 borkamaniac [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:02 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:57:37 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:00:19 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 11:02:53 -!- xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:04:25 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:51 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 11:10:35 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:11:12 -!- prip [~foo@host140-120-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:12:27 timor [~timor@port-92-195-92-180.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:36 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-14.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:24:27 prip [~foo@host214-83-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:25:38 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 11:26:23 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:29:35 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:51 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 11:34:39 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:39 kanru [~kanru@61-228-153-104.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:51 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:44:20 Hmm, for some reason i don't have thread support on SBCL on OS X 11:47:49 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:03 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 11:54:55 drdo: because you didn't enable them? 11:55:36 stassats`: Yes, only now i found out they are only enabled by default on linux 11:55:44 recompiling atm with them enabled 11:56:06 wasn't threading in SBCL/osx tricky? 11:57:23 -!- SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:58:37 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:59:27 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:08 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.121.189] has joined #lisp 12:01:30 netytan [~netytan@host81-141-51-128.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:01 yay, threads 12:05:03 -!- huahua2 [~huahua2@118.124.227.173] has left #lisp 12:05:49 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-55-206.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: night all] 12:08:17 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A2A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:25 dfox_ [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-66.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:15:32 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 12:15:32 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 12:15:32 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 12:16:20 -!- dfox_ is now known as dfox 12:18:08 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-137.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:18:18 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 12:18:54 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 12:19:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour5-2-0-cust921.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:20:07 darn, i can't specify element-type for sb-ext:run-program streams, or can i? 12:20:33 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:20:38 i remember some recent activity on that front, but i don't remember if it is code or only talk 12:21:12 i only see external-format, that's what those talks were about 12:21:13 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.110] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 12:21:21 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 12:21:27 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.110] has joined #lisp 12:21:49 emeriste [~emma@user-0ccem3f.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:22:28 in any case, i need it to be portable 12:23:20 i'm trying to encrypt a file with gpg, i guess i can just save output to a file and then read it 12:24:05 or use write cffi for gpgme, or forget about gpg and encrypt with Ironclad 12:26:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-207-103.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:29:03 -!- emeriste [~emma@user-0ccem3f.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: Smile! ] 12:29:13 em [~emma@user-0ccem3f.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:29:14 -!- em [~emma@user-0ccem3f.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:29:14 em [~emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 12:29:21 is there a trivial-mkstemp? 12:31:48 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:33:21 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:33:59 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 12:35:15 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu246.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:35:26 *stassats`* doesn't see why trivial-shell package has #:com.metabang.trivial-shell #:metashell nicknames 12:35:35 especially the former 12:36:50 stassats`: some packages use names that seem to only make sense in presence of relative/hierarchical packages, apparently 12:37:10 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:37 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:37:40 well, com.metabang.xxx is meant to avoid name collisions, but it's a nickname, so it's useless 12:40:09 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:40:37 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:40:41 -!- Taiyou` [~Taiyou@bas3-toronto47-1279427952.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:43:31 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:43:50 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-91.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:45:08 sbcl is dying when loading cl-opengl while using SLIME, but works just fine otherwise, any idea about this? 12:45:33 something about starting not from the main thread? 12:45:36 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:46:41 *stassats`* adds to his TODO to fix the situations with running external programs 12:47:10 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.145.65] has joined #lisp 12:47:17 something without quirky package nicknames and with ability to specify element-type 12:56:44 stassats`: iolib has it, or will have it. the current impl is not too good, but libfixposix already has the C side, only fe[nl]ix needs to find the time to do the lisp part, too 12:57:42 that sounds better than trying to fix run-program in all implementations 12:59:10 drdo` [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:00:59 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:03:55 fe[nl]ix: while we are at it... any ETA for run-program in iolib? I'm stuck in setting up mailing lists at dwim.hu because it needs a smarter cgi than what we have in wui, but I don't want to set up a non-lisp proxy only for this 13:04:17 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has joined #lisp 13:06:20 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 13:08:28 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:29 -!- kingless [~user@adsl-242-219-75.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:13:40 beach: I mean that :from-end does not guarantee any O(f(n)). A well behaved implementation will do it efficiently, but this is not mandatory. 13:14:08 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 13:14:28 :from-end nil doesn't guarantee anything either 13:14:53 pjb: OK, that might be true. 13:17:14 pjb: It does guarantee (I think) that there is not a quadratic time spent in the user-supplied append, and an implementation that would make that so much worse by wasting it away on the top-level traversal of the list would be very strange. 13:18:53 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:22:44 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has joined #lisp 13:23:10 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has left #lisp 13:24:23 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.121.189] has left #lisp 13:24:37 jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-243-131.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:23 -!- jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-243-131.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:53 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.121.189] has joined #lisp 13:27:04 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.121.189] has left #lisp 13:27:25 bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.141.39] has joined #lisp 13:29:50 Well, in the case of reduce, since the value of :from-end imposes the associativity of the operator, there is no choice indeed. 13:30:35 fiveop [~fiveop@178.2.111.102] has joined #lisp 13:30:50 Right, that was my point. 13:30:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:31:03 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:38:28 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.127.237.7] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:47:33 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 13:53:30 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:54:26 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:56:10 jeti [~user@p54B47EA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:44 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.58.141.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:01:27 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.59.162] has joined #lisp 14:01:40 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:02:54 So, cmucl fails a few (all?) of the check-pathnames tests. 14:04:00 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 14:04:54 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.59.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:46 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 14:08:25 wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:35 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:06 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:27 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:12:27 beach: I'm ok with the way tinaa works. it could use more output control options. It's just the last release was over two years ago and it breaks when I run it 14:13:13 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-101-71-212.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:13:41 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:14:23 syntard: Would you mind telling me how it does work? 14:16:20 beach: i'm no expert, but I can see it's able to document whole systems, organizing them by class inheritance. It documents methods, slots, and special variables. 14:16:51 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:23 beach: http://viridian-project.de/~sky/weblocks-stable/docs/gen/weblocks-package/ is an example 14:18:27 syntard: Yes, I have seen a few examples of what it is doing, and I find them absolutely horrible as documentation goes. That is why I am wondering. 14:18:29 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:52 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:12 ... and that includes the Tinaa documentation itself. 14:19:37 beach: every horrible bit helps 14:19:58 beach: but, I did ask: are there alternatives? 14:20:03 I know. 14:21:21 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:18 I am thinking perhaps that if Tinaa does what some other documentation systems do, namely put the documentation near the code entity to document, then that might explain the result: First, there is often no good entity to associate the documentation with (if you want to document a protocol for instance, or if you want to talk about concepts, examples, etc.). 14:23:34 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:36 Second, having API documentation next to code is basically not right (though I don't know how to do it better), because to the person reading the code, it frequently represents noise, so I was wondering whether there might be a better way of doing it. 14:29:25 beach: I only can think of two ways: outlining and linking 14:30:04 Could you elaborate on how you would imagin those two? 14:30:33 beach: outlining with the help of code editor (emacs) : it hides docs when you don't want 14:30:52 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:31:03 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 14:31:09 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:31:17 beach: linking is actually hyperlinking to documentation elsewhere 14:31:22 Right, so you put it there, but you don't necessarily see it. That solves the "noise" problme. 14:31:48 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-233.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:32:17 except that people who don't share your editor choice will make more noise to compensate any achieved reduction thereof 14:32:47 cmm: I am not willing to put energy into making life easier for them. 14:33:25 therefore it seems reasonable to declare this problem social and happily revert to the usual and comfortable despair :) 14:33:55 cmm: That's what I am going to do in a minute. I just wanted to see whether people had some ideas. 14:34:16 syntard: Linking could probably be achieved easily by having Emacs load some document associated with a link near the code. 14:34:47 I still don't know where to put concepts, examples, and documentation related to things that have no corresponding program entity, such as protocols. 14:35:20 but yeah, improving the tools seems like the obvious way to me. because when you want stuff to be in proximity to some other stuff but also want to be able to ignore it, you effectively want more dimensions, and that means tool support 14:35:26 cmm: Linking would remove the noise for everyone. It would just be harder to use if you couldn't load the associated page easitly. 14:35:52 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:37:46 linking could use some generic documentation system,possibly one able to describe protocols 14:37:56 beach: good point. also seems compatible with the usual emacs "pop-to-buffer, C-c C-c" workflow 14:42:46 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 14:46:54 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 -!- benny [~benny@i577A88A9.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:48:13 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:33 Hi! Have somebody used gsll? I'm familiar with Numpy, and the terminology seems to be that much different, so I can't find a function to initialize an array with values "0, 1 2 3 ... N" How do you do that? 14:48:35 sabalaba [~sabalaba@123.113.97.107] has joined #lisp 14:48:51 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:49:06 peterhil: What are they? 14:49:25 benny [~benny@i577A8386.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:49:57 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:50:07 peterhil: Found GSLL, never mind. 14:50:33 beach: Scientific calculation libraries. 14:50:40 Yeah, got it. 14:51:26 The manual for gsl is 520 pages long, and it's full of c examples, but it's not always very helpful... :-) 14:52:04 And the gsl library is so vast, you get 100 results for every search term... 14:54:25 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:48 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.32] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:57:13 -!- netytan [~netytan@host81-141-51-128.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:35 netytan [~netytan@host81-141-51-128.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 14:57:59 I guess there must be some elementary examples in the beginning of the manual, so maybe I just start reading/skimmin it through... 14:59:14 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:00:35 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:11 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:02:56 [Derek] [~derek@205.185.113.254] has joined #lisp 15:03:18 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-201-133.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:58 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:27 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@56-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:08:22 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:10:24 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0225.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 15:11:22 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d20.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:04 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 15:14:46 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 15:15:38 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.194.202] has joined #lisp 15:19:35 netytan_ [~netytan@host81-141-51-146.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:15 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:21:48 -!- netytan [~netytan@host81-141-51-128.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:21:48 -!- netytan_ is now known as netytan 15:26:00 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: sbahra] 15:26:58 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 15:27:15 ykim3 [~ykim3@211.59.199.155] has joined #lisp 15:27:35 lemoinem [~swoog@56-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:42 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0225.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:28:46 Blkt [~user@net-93-145-62-81.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 15:29:17 -!- ykim3 [~ykim3@211.59.199.155] has quit [Client Quit] 15:32:58 fijilm [~user@211.59.199.155] has joined #lisp 15:33:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:35:04 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:23 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:35:32 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 15:35:52 danlen-1 [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:21 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.145.65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:50 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:38:48 -!- fijilm [~user@211.59.199.155] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:41:50 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:19 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.194.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:45:58 -!- jeti [~user@p54B47EA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:47:29 -!- danlen-1 [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 15:48:02 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-145-62-81.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:56:12 -!- Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:54 Steven_ [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:14 rukowen [~thehien@222.253.86.111] has joined #lisp 16:01:15 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-66.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:01:20 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:02:54 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 16:04:32 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:47 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:12:36 Bronsa [~bronsa@host204-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:12:51 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has joined #lisp 16:20:10 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.137.18] has joined #lisp 16:21:28 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host204-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:23:10 Bronsa [~bronsa@host204-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:24:08 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host204-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:24:18 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:23 OK, now I found it: The terms I was looking for are interpolation and acceleration 16:26:42 -!- Steven_ is now known as therealsdsds 16:27:05 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:15 ...or maybe I just define functions using loops first. 16:29:33 =) 16:32:50 nekschot [nekschot@82-170-165-132.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 16:33:24 Craig` [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:09 hey guys im wanting to get started with common lisp, im using ubuntu 10.04 and im wanting to use vim as my editor, what compiler should i be using? 16:35:16 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 16:35:26 bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.183.244] has joined #lisp 16:35:35 Craig`: SBCL is pretty good. 16:35:50 Craig`: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6e91e20f2f371b52 has some tips. 16:36:03 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:04 and vim, as an editor for common lisp, isn't that great 16:36:05 thanks 16:36:23 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:17 -!- therealsdsds is now known as ice_ 16:38:44 craig: What are you mainly interested in doing with CL? 16:40:33 -!- Craig` [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:43:23 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44:10 sohail [~Adium@toronto44-3429232071.sdsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:44:15 -!- sohail [~Adium@toronto44-3429232071.sdsl.bell.ca] has quit [Changing host] 16:44:15 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:44:21 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-129.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:59 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@56-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:46:16 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:23 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-86-134.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:47:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:48:38 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:50:53 -!- slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:51:33 ciaranb [~ciaran@5acba966.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:04 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d20.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:35 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-129.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:02:23 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.52.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:02:44 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.52.125] has joined #lisp 17:03:14 Good evening everyone! 17:03:53 ... for a while I was scared you were going to say "good morning" 17:04:10 (cause then I'd miss 10 hours somewhere) 17:04:22 I see. No worries. 17:04:28 good night thy 17:04:43 rukowen: Hey, what are you doing here this late? 17:06:25 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-66-219.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:06:40 beach: I'm doing Lisp 17:06:52 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-57-185.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:07:03 rukowen: I'm impressed. It's after midnight, right? 17:07:11 rukowen: Do you work from home? 17:08:14 beach: ah, is there any tool or IDE or anything that make us easier to code? 17:08:38 rukowen: Most people seem happy with SLIME. 17:08:53 beach: we're using GEDIT to code 17:09:17 rukowen: That's not so good. Use Emacs and SLIME. It will make your lives easier. 17:09:28 und paredit! =) 17:09:31 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 17:09:38 Yes, and paredit. 17:11:07 netytan_ [~netytan@host81-141-51-146.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:48 -!- netytan [~netytan@host81-141-51-146.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:11:48 -!- netytan_ is now known as netytan 17:12:12 beach: sometime I miss a parenthesis, I have to scan from the begin of a function to the end :( 17:12:30 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-218-150.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:42 rukowen: Oh dear. Yeah, then Emacs, SLIME, and Paredit are what you need. 17:12:54 rukowen: Take it as part of the learning process. 17:13:40 lemoinem [~swoog@56-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:42 it will be like a completely different language 17:13:55 -!- netytan [~netytan@host81-141-51-146.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:15:27 communicating with the computer has never felt so ... natural =) 17:17:22 humasect: It is very interesting that you should say that, because I keep striving for a mode of interaction with the computer where I don't even have to think about it anymore. Then I look at colleagues around me, and I feel sad that they spend so much time and energy on repetitive tasks with horrible modes of interaction. 17:18:08 =) 17:18:28 humasect: this seemed more like a Dragon Voice Recognition Software motto to me :D 17:18:35 "you typed this all out? how do you edit it after? by hand with cursor keys??" 17:19:47 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:20:05 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-129.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:14 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@56-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:22:38 beach: I've to go to bed. I'll find out paredit tomorrow. Good night thy. 17:22:48 rukowen: Good night! 17:23:07 -!- rukowen [~thehien@222.253.86.111] has left #lisp 17:24:07 I've seen lots of people at my univ hunting around with the mouse and arrow keys, indenting by pressing space lots of times and such, i don't know how people can stand that 17:24:10 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.110] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:25:47 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.137.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:26:21 heheh 17:26:37 i heard music and sugar and caffeine helps numb that kind of pain 17:26:57 drdo: Yeah, I have become interested in that, and I am beginning to understand. Humans tend to totally have the wrong intuition about how fast you can make up for time lost up-front (they get it wrong by a factor 10-100), because the task at hand seems so much more urgent. To compensate for this, we need to resist our inherited psychological reaction, and do the calculation instead. 17:27:48 I've been known to indulge in that myself 17:28:02 drdo: We all do. 17:28:17 drdo: I try to teach my student this, but the psychological forces involved are so strong that I succeed only in a very small number of cases. 17:28:26 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-89-90.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:19 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:29:41 drdo: The traditional way of fixing this at the university has been to find an even stronger psychological force to compensate (i.e., the possibility of a failing grade), but so far we are not doing so well, because after telling them how important it is to be productive, we give them an exam using paper and pencil. 17:29:59 I've gathered some followers for the church though, some people come and ask me about my editor and i'm happy to help them 17:29:59 it works best to show them rather than tell them 17:30:35 drdo: So my plan is to have on-line programming exams with all documents allowed. Then the ones who master the tools will do *much* better than the others, thus creating the stronger psychological force I am looking for. 17:30:59 humasect: I am sorry to say, but it doesn't work at all for students. 17:31:16 humasect: For the simple reason that their goal is not to be productive, but to get a diploma. 17:31:21 if someone can watch their own failings while they occur, there is no way they will do it again 17:31:29 beach: perhaps you need them to give tasks which cannot be solved without proper tools 17:32:00 because you can do something repetitive 10 times, but not 1000 17:32:04 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.110] has joined #lisp 17:32:30 stassats`: That's tricky, but I am looking for the next level down, i.e. tools where the task *could* be solved with inferior tools, but not within the time at their disposal. 17:32:56 stassats`: that's what i exactly get from euler project problems, and it works well for me 17:33:05 humasect: You would be surprised. 17:33:17 any animal will do something again and again into a habit as long as nothing interrupts the rhythm, once it is a habit, the only way to change it is to have someone show it to them by pointing it out directly. 17:33:22 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:33:48 "why did you press the cursor key so much?" 17:33:50 The problem is that the projects to be done by students at univs are too simple and take from a few hours to a day to complete 17:33:57 humasect: I am telling you, pointing it out to them will make them *furious* because of the strong forces involved. 17:34:05 yep! =) 17:34:09 Yet, they give around a month for them to be completed 17:34:26 So the students don't really feel the need to be productive 17:34:34 like stopping a train, there are gentler ways, but we are looking to be productive =) the upset and frustration of changing the rails is temporary~ 17:34:39 that approach not only makes you want to solve the problem in a more logical way, but also optimize your solution 17:35:04 humasect: I meant, it will make them furious that you have the audacity to point out to them what they ought to be doing, and then they give you bad evaluations. 17:35:07 i have seen screencasts of programming recently where over 50% of typed input was mistakes! they were quite embarrassed to have it pointed out. 17:35:45 don't tell them what to do better, they have to make that on their own due to pride and stuff. just show them the ugly that they refuse to see and they will not be able to unsee=) 17:35:47 kenanb: most of my solutions are brute force 17:36:05 humasect: How many years have you taught at the university? 17:36:32 netytan [~netytan@host81-141-51-146.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 17:36:52 humasect: I am telling you, it is not working. The only way that works is to invoke that much stronger force that makes them fail if they don't do as we expect them to. 17:37:13 stassats`: i find formules for optimization if i can, if not, i try to at least find other tiny ways of optimization since some of them take hours without a direct brute force approach 17:37:15 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:26 with* (not without) 17:37:29 hmm momentum is so very strong. even the momentum of teaching habit 17:38:18 kenanb: well, yes, not the most stupid brute force, but still, compared to what some describe in the forum 17:38:53 humasect: While that might be true, believe me, for quite a number of years, I thought your method would work, and then I had to give up and study some psychology to figure out why it won't. 17:39:08 i lack in the math department, and can't force myself to improve 17:39:39 humasect: Have you read my article: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html ? 17:39:54 ah, interesting =) will read this now 17:40:30 beach: I think the solution is to have challenging enough projects that students can't complete them in time if they don't have a certain level of productivity 17:40:34 srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:23 stassats`: i could only come with the fairly most stupid bf solution for problem 12 today, it took more than 2 hours of runtime to solve it, and i am sure i did some things that even lengthen the time 17:42:06 Oh, project euler? Today i solved some problem with my solution taking up to 1GB of memory 17:42:07 drdo: Dream on! 17:42:09 beach: Is it an option to decide not to care whether students are productive in the sense of making best use of Emacs or whatever? Is that really important? 17:42:24 drdo: whoo :D interesting 17:42:46 kenanb: I knew how to improve it, but there's really no point, we only have to run it once :P 17:43:20 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:36 kenanb: too bad i don't have the source code for it left 17:43:49 gigamonkey: Sure it's an option, and it's an option chosen by most of my colleagues (because they don't care about their own productivity). I consider it to be my very job description to make the industry of this country competitive, so I can't let it pass when my students waste 10-50% of their time on repetitive stuff that can be automated. 17:43:51 gigamonkey: I don't think forcing any particular tool is a good idea 17:43:54 with nothing to compare with, a student will assume they are the best. lead by example ! 17:44:43 I even think that students should be able to use whatever tools they want (including programming languages) for any assignment 17:45:14 drdo: i am pretty newb on most programming concepts so i try as much as i can to handle the problems in better ways, in ways that will help me learn some programming solutions that i can use afterwards 17:45:26 drdo: That's the ideal situation, and then you just make it so hard to complete if they don't use tools that make them productive. 17:45:34 *Xach* wonders about a Swedish plot to render France uncompetitive 17:45:42 beach: Exactly 17:46:01 drdo: But that method has problems, because then you would either have to teach them all possible tools, or you would have to rely on them to do that themselves. Neither of which is practical. 17:46:11 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:46:28 The latter would be my suggestion 17:46:43 stassats`: np, since i solved it at last, i can look at the thread for 0.1s runtime solutions now - which make me ashamed :) but thanks 17:46:45 Xach: in case you wonder, I am French for all practical purposes. 17:46:55 drdo: Again, dream on! 17:47:04 beach: I think there's quite too much hand holding going on 17:47:12 drdo: Where do you live? 17:47:16 Portugal 17:47:35 beach: that's what makes it so potentially insidious. 17:48:07 drdo: The situation in France is very strange. At the university, we are obliged to accept everyone with a high-school diploma. So all students that didn't make it to any competitive program end up here. Do your theories still apply in that situation? 17:48:35 Xach: Ah, OK, I'll think about making a lucrative deal with the Swedish government. 17:48:41 kenanb: i was interested how did i solve it and compare to how would i solve it today, considering that that was a couple of years ago 17:49:21 drdo: So instead of filtering the entrance, we fail 40% of our students per year. 17:49:44 drdo: But that still means we have a bunch of unmotivated students the first couple of years. 17:50:01 beach: The alternative is much worse 17:50:10 And is what's happening now 17:50:13 drdo: Which is? 17:50:23 beach: O_o no entry exams etc.? 17:50:37 There are lots of clueless and really terrible people getting a diploma 17:51:34 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:52:19 I am not complaining that we are obliged to take them on. I am just explaining why we can't treat them like MIT students. 17:52:24 They have no incentive to actually get better, they can get by 17:53:35 beach: My univ is pretty good, even at a world wide scale, and i still think it's too forgiving 17:53:58 drdo: But I also can't allow myself not to do my job (which is training students to making the software industry efficient and competitive), so I have to find ways of *making* them improve against their will, or fail them if they don't. 17:54:23 beach: It must be frustrating to be a teacher 17:54:28 drdo: Mine is not that bad (especially if you look at the Google AI challenge! :)) 17:54:29 If you care 17:54:37 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-233.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 17:55:13 drdo: I care, which is why it's a bit frustrating. But I continue looking for solutions and improvements, which is more than I can say for most of my colleages. 17:55:15 I imagine you get all sorts of complaints for higher up the hierarchy on how you must pass at least X% of students 17:55:16 *ues 17:55:55 drdo: No, not really (at least not yet). But that might happen with the latest reform of autonomy of the universities. 17:55:55 *from 17:56:41 60% pass rate seems reasonable across different disciplines. 17:57:18 Anyway, to get back on topic, you can imagine how hard it is to teach Lisp in situations like that. 17:57:32 That's not a problem at my univ 17:57:43 drdo: Congratulations! 17:57:46 The introductory course is a rip-off of the old SICP 17:58:26 With a textbook that is mostly a translation of it 17:58:32 drdo: If I did that here, everyone would choose physics in the second semester. Since the students come here not having chosen a discipline, they get to choose after the first semester. 17:58:40 And we do use Common Lisp in some courses 17:59:08 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:27 beach: I think our introductory course is really good, with a really good professor 17:59:33 Most people like it 17:59:54 drdo: We use Common Lisp in the third-year programming course (6 ECTS credits), and in the following project course (3 credits). 18:01:02 perhaps teaching materials should be in the form similar to Land of Lisp 18:01:07 drdo: Might be. I hear the same about the course by Christian Quyeinnec in Paris. 18:01:14 One thing i would like to see is more freedom on what programming language to use, ppart from specific courses (such as computer architecture where it makes sense to make you program in assembly) 18:01:16 beach: a french university teaching lisp ? which one is it ? 18:01:26 *appart 18:01:35 galdor: Mine? University of Bordeaux. 18:01:41 nice 18:01:48 galdor: Not by any means the only one though. 18:02:16 galdor: We are not yet at the mercy of industry the way universities in the UK and the US are. 18:02:47 well at Paris XI, we had ocaml and java (with a bit of C, C++, php and perl) 18:02:51 drdo: Freedom for whom? The professors? The students? 18:03:20 galdor: But at Paris 6, they have Scheme, as I just said. 18:03:45 beach: the students 18:03:45 galdor: Also at Caen last time I looked, and some more places I can't remember now. 18:04:11 drdo: I am sorry, but students are not capable of choosing a programming language for the right reasons. 18:04:27 -!- ice_ is now known as sdsds 18:04:31 beach: They will pay for it when they can't complete the project :) 18:04:41 beach: depends of the students, don't generalize 18:05:01 beach: I'm not suggesting they do this from the first year, but after being exposed to a few, it makes sense 18:05:05 drdo: I don't believe for a second in that pedagogical strategy. 18:05:49 It also hopefully motivates students to learn new stuff on their own 18:06:10 galdor: When I say "the students", that's shorthand for "the total vast majority of the students, with the exception of perhaps 2-5 students per year", but I can't write that down every time I mean it. 18:06:24 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:06:25 drdo: Dream on! 18:07:07 drdo: Students are interested in graduation! End of story! The only way you can teach them something is by threatening that they might not graduate. 18:07:11 beach: It bothers me, really 18:07:17 me too. 18:07:19 beach: this policy was really painful, we had to use stupid languages because most of the students were clueless 18:07:20 beach: I'm a student myself 18:07:21 i was motivated to learn new stuff on my own, but not necessarily what was in the curriculum 18:07:30 galdor: And that was the same kind of generalization I just told you about. 18:07:36 stassats`: Happens to me a lot 18:08:17 beach: You have no idea of the stuff i see from a lot of my fellow students 18:08:21 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.158.207] has joined #lisp 18:08:30 drdo: I was one too, and you know what. I have colleagues who don't understand my students, because after all they were not at all like that! But give me a break. They went on to become professors at the university of Bordeaux, and they consider themselves representative of our students? Hello? 18:09:19 mega1 [~quassel@2001:470:1f05:548:215:58ff:fe7d:773b] has joined #lisp 18:09:23 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:09:26 galdor: You just had the misfortune of being an unrepresentative (motivated, etc) student in the French system. That's collateral damage. 18:09:56 beach: I've seen people pass courses while producing really barbaric stuff, and that worries me 18:10:02 beach: Out of curiosity, do you have much idea how universities in France compare to the UK? 18:10:02 stassats`: Me too. But I now know I wasn't representative. 18:10:49 beach: Why should it be the case that universities should appeal to unmotivated students? 18:10:56 Guthur: I know we produce better students, because when UK students come here they fail, and when our students go there, they do very well. 18:11:08 drdo: Because the law says so? 18:11:41 beach: I know, and i don't agree, that's my point 18:11:42 drdo: That exists everywhere, but you can't use singular statistical points to convince me. 18:12:04 drdo: I can't fix the law. I don't even vote on a national level here. 18:12:26 University is optional, not mandatory, i can understand such things before that 18:12:40 But when you choose to enroll in a university, you should be motivated 18:12:52 drdo: Dream on! 18:13:14 That policy has a terrible consequence 18:13:24 Which is making students like me, unmotivated 18:14:08 you can keep yourself motivated 18:14:26 I was about to say that, hehe 18:14:27 drdo: I try to do the best I can as a professor here. I have convictions about productivity, and I have experience from the software industry in 4 different countries. I have worked in the software industry in 3 of those countries. I know how bad it is. I know how to fix it, and I know my students have to be the ones doing that. 18:15:31 It's just as hard to find a job that is motivating, so you have to be able to motivate yourself 18:15:52 drdo: I have a lot to teach students who want to listen. If there is one or two students per year who are willing to listen and learn, that already not bad. But I can't drop the other 100 or so students per year. 18:15:58 stassats`: It's hard to do so when i feel that the system is bullshit 18:16:57 beach: That's another issue with universities, while there are some really great professors, some of them are really really bad 18:17:13 And i don't mean just from a pedagogical point of view, from a technical point of view too 18:17:20 drdo: So I must pursue a mixed strategy: really encourage the 1 or 2 students who are convinced that I have something to say, encouraging the ones on the borderline, and using threats for the remaining ones. 18:17:47 imho, it is not proffesors job to keep students motivated. it is a bonus though if one can do it. far more important is for him (prof) to be a knowledgeable and active in his sphere so he can provide proper feedback for those motivated enough.. 18:17:56 drdo: I know. I try to fix that by participating in the hiring process, but research often takes priority. 18:18:07 s/a// 18:18:11 udzinari`: Dream on! 18:18:29 p_l|uni [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:18:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18:48 udzinari`: The point is that the current curriculum is dumbed down and interested students lose motivation 18:19:18 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:19:31 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 18:19:43 lemoinem [~swoog@233-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:46 udzinari`: If I followed your advice, my job would be very comfortable, because I would have close to 0 students starting the second semester. But then, with no CS students I would have no CS colleagues after a few years. 18:19:47 beach: What has happened for me at least, is that i don't attend lectures at all 18:20:33 -!- netytan [~netytan@host81-141-51-146.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:20:41 drdo: That's fine with me as a professor, as long as it's the students who don't need to be present who aren't. Unfortunately, it's the other way around usually. 18:21:00 I would love to go to lectures 18:21:19 But most of them are really not very interesting at all 18:21:22 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:21:30 There are some exceptions, but this is the general rule 18:21:33 drdo: I know, and I am sorry about that. 18:22:33 ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has joined #lisp 18:22:40 -!- nekschot [nekschot@82-170-165-132.ip.telfort.nl] has left #lisp 18:22:56 Anyway, the students really hate Lisp in general, with the exception of 2-3 students per year (out of 100). I consider that a good score though, given the motivation of the students, and the difficulty of Lisp. 18:23:16 (this is in the third-year undergraduate program) 18:23:34 lisp may be difficult, but it's easy to do things in it 18:23:40 Why do they hate it? What are their complaints? 18:24:19 drdo: because it's easy to hate it, you can always say "nobody uses this old crap, why aren't you teaching us something useful" 18:24:22 That isn't the case around here, so i'm curious 18:24:34 Things become a bit better in the Masters program because then several colleagues get serious and show them the advantages and disadvantages of certain languages and programming techniques. But then it's a bit too late for Lisp, and they are just longing for graduation. 18:24:45 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:25:16 Maahes [~Matthew@thestudy.us] has joined #lisp 18:25:27 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Client Quit] 18:25:37 drdo: See my article. It questions their knowledge. They would have to alter some deeply-rooted convictions, and that is hard for humans to do. 18:25:40 beach: Do you actually have a course on CL? 18:25:49 Or is it just used as a tool on some other course? 18:26:11 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.194.110] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:26:13 beach: I applaud your dedication. It must be quite an uphill battle. 18:26:16 drdo: I am not the one doing it at the moment, but yes, I created it and taught it for a number of years. 18:26:47 drdo: Oh, sorry, we have no courses where the title mentions any programming language. 18:26:56 Though I've been toying lately the idea of someday writing about education. Your comments here gave me the idea for a book title: "Is education possible?" 18:27:04 beach: I think some of the problem might be that only a tiny subset is taught and students don't really see the point of "all these parethensis" 18:27:04 drdo: This one is "functional and symbolic programming". 18:27:07 netytan [~netytan@host86-175-237-150.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:15 *parenthesis 18:27:35 -!- netytan [~netytan@host86-175-237-150.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:56 gigamonkey: It is very much 18:28:00 gigamonkey: You might overestimate the time I spend on it. And I like the title of the book. 18:28:08 The issue with universities is that the students don't want education 18:28:28 They want to do the minimum possible to get a 9to5 job doing the minimum possible 18:29:02 as a general rule 18:29:19 drdo: We teach CLOS, :before, :after, :around methods, packages, higher-order functions, reader macros, printer programming. Enough for you? 18:29:29 Something i've seen empirically is that a lot of students don't actually have an interest in CS 18:29:44 They just heard somewhere that you get high paying jobs and there are lots of jobs and enrolled 18:30:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:30:50 drdo: Not here. That trend ended around 5 years ago. Those students now sign up for "the environment". 18:31:23 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:31:48 -!- Maahes [~Matthew@thestudy.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:31:55 beach: I wasn't attacking you are anything, i was just curious, as we don't have that here, students here get presented with just a really tiny subset of CL that is mostly equivalent to, say, python with parenthesis around stuff 18:32:14 ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has joined #lisp 18:32:35 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 18:32:42 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 18:32:59 I was just thinking that when that happens, it's natural for students to not like it 18:33:31 beach: What is "the environment" ? 18:34:15 drdo: renewable energy, recycling technologies, marine biology preservation, etc. 18:34:40 What has that to do with CS? 18:34:59 Nothing, that's the point. 18:35:13 drdo: Nothing. I am telling you the students have a choice. The ones who want a well paid job no longer sign up for CS. 18:35:34 Oh, i get it, i misunderstood what you said 18:35:57 I understood that you meant "students sign up for CS because of the environment" 18:36:12 Maahes [~Matthew@thestudy.us] has joined #lisp 18:36:47 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:57 I have a new strategy though (that you might have seen traces of here). I pay students in Vietnam (out of my own account) to program in Lisp. This convinced vng and maus to apply for internships with Didier Verna In Paris, and they seem to like Lisp very much. 18:36:59 The big trends here are those after the jobs and the guys who don't really like anything but like video games 18:37:24 Another student, longkid, has been around for a while, and he might get something similar this year. 18:37:47 Pay me too! 18:37:57 Now, you see mostly rukowen who is part of the new generation. 18:38:16 drdo: Sure, are you willing to work half time for 100 EUR/month? 18:38:19 What is the new generation? I'm faily young 18:38:27 I'm 20, about to be 21 18:38:39 drdo: vng and maus are graduating. They had to be replaced. 18:39:02 what kind of work are they doing? 18:39:04 drdo: I can only pay 3-5 students simultaneously. 18:39:13 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:39:24 beach: What kind of work is it? 18:40:41 beach: Out of curiosity, what's the feature you suddenly learned wasn't useless? 8) 18:40:43 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:45 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:02 stassats`: I would like to say "anything interesting", but the Asian mentality is such that initially they don't have the courage to take on that responsibility. So with longkid, vng, and maus, it was a Sudoku generator and solver. Now (with longkid, rukowen (and one more whose nick I can't remember)) it is a document improvement system 18:41:27 beach: That's funny 18:41:38 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:41:40 Our project on the introductory first year course was exactly that 18:41:51 a sudoku generator and solver 18:42:53 Using racket (PLT at the time) and their GUI libraries 18:43:04 *stassats`* wouldn't mind getting paid to do lisp either 18:43:14 although i don't mind to do lisp for free 18:43:25 Odin-: referring to my article? CLOS! 18:43:45 beach: That's kind of a big feature. O_o 18:43:57 I would rather hack lisp for a low pay than programming java or some shit for some guys 18:44:03 Odin-: Yes. But I was convinced otherwise. 18:44:25 i feel the same, drdo, with the addition of "or ruby" 18:44:27 Bronsa [~bronsa@host204-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:44:29 drdo: If you settle for 100EUR/month half time, you're in! 18:44:45 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: back in a week] 18:44:51 beach: I'm interested, what is it like? 18:45:02 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:45:02 A fixed amount of hours? 18:45:14 drdo: in my 1st year 1st semester, the programming project was a first-order logic inference system (in scheme too), entitled in a way not to scare students 18:45:18 beach: Do you have to ruvive in Paris on that wage? Or am I misunderstanding the offer. 18:45:27 s/ruvive/survive/ 18:45:28 Half time. Whenever you want. Do whatever you want as long as it's useful to the community. 18:45:43 What does half time mean? 18:45:44 stassats`: me too 18:45:50 4h/day 18:45:52 drdo: 20h/week. 18:45:59 I see 18:46:03 gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:18 I'm interested in that 18:46:18 *syntard* plants a lisp tree 18:46:32 Shouldn't it be 17.5 in France? :p 18:46:44 franki^: These kids are in Ho Chi Minh City, which is why it is working out. 18:47:24 That's what they renamed Saigon, isn't it? 18:47:32 indeed. 18:47:49 Odin-: But don't tell Fare 18:48:01 beach: Oh? 18:48:07 (the name of the project) deductive database, with emphasys on database, so everyone was hyped they were doing DB so early in graduation :D 18:48:23 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:25 *Odin-* was really just checking that his geography checked out, not making a political point of any sort. 18:48:52 beach: Ah, I see. It would be tough for me here in Mexico to survive on that wage, which is why I was wondering, heh. 18:49:00 *emphasis 18:49:25 Odin-: Many of the people in the south didn't feel invaded by the US, but threatened by the north. Renaming their capital is a total political insult from the north. 18:49:36 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:49:50 pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:14 ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has joined #lisp 18:50:54 gahh.. clsql:create-view-from-class keeps barking "Class has no :base slots" at me and I can't figure out what that means 18:51:06 beach: I'm aware of that, actually. Just not fully up to speed on the full history of that conflict, so I'd rather avoid getting into arguments on its results. 8) 18:51:31 it has to do with :normalizedp, which is t.. it requires a primary key, which i have 18:53:21 koning_robot: you used clsql:def-view-class ? 18:54:02 yes 18:55:19 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 18:58:41 franki^: About salary, it is touch-and-go in Saigon as well, but then they usually work part-time on even lower-paid jobs, so I prefer they do this. 18:59:45 Odin-: It is less complicated these days, but Fare isn't living there, so his views are determined by the way things were when (I assume) his family had to get out. 19:01:41 beach: Yeah, I think it's really cool, and although my current job is slightly better paid, I bet it's nowhere near as fun. If I could find another job to take part-time I'd be tempted to sign myself up ;) 19:01:43 koning_robot: I think top classes shouldn't and don't need normalizedp 19:01:50 beach: Likely. The 'had to get out' may also be a slanting factor. 19:02:31 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:03:14 franki^: If you are good, and you want to take on a module of SICL, I am willing to discuss. 19:03:45 syntard: hm. yes, that makes sense. thanks! 19:04:07 Odin-: I am just referring to the way they must have felt. I am not talking about my own opinion in the matter. 19:04:18 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:04:43 beach: I'm not sure if I'm good, but I hope to be good one day. :) Is there a site where I could read more about it? 19:07:29 franki^: Sure, common-lisp.net/project/sicl/ 19:08:40 *franki^* git clones 19:08:43 ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has joined #lisp 19:09:02 franki^: It seems like I already have a maintainter for the first module released, namely the cons-high module. 19:09:50 *`3b* should upgrade to the latest sicl code one of these days 19:10:08 franki^: The `format' module is close to release as well. It only needs the floating-pint printers, but I have an implementation of the key algorithm for tha. 19:10:12 syntard: I notice clsql doesn't quote the table name in the sql query, at least the postgres backend doesn't. Do you happen to know if this is true for all backends? 19:10:27 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:10:41 `3b: For cons-high, I think you would be impressed! 19:11:33 koning_robot: I think it constructs expressions before calling backends 19:14:46 jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@81.193.2.247] has joined #lisp 19:15:31 beach: does cons-high mean it trades space for time? 19:15:55 <`3b> stassats`: high-level cons opertations 19:17:13 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has joined #lisp 19:17:19 oh 19:17:28 beach: Looks like I've got a bit to read here. :) 19:18:12 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.52.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:19:58 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.150.184] has joined #lisp 19:20:00 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:17 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 19:22:25 hmm.. I just remembered that I tried to use clsql with postgres a couple of years ago and ran into the exact same problem.. postgres has a reversed word "user" which you can only use if you quote it. clsql not quoting everything is bizarre... 19:23:13 ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has joined #lisp 19:23:25 clsql is god, backends should feel lucky 19:23:35 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-233.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:24:01 hi, why is the document slot for the class instance foo become a listed (T) instead of just T in this example (sb-mop)? http://paste.lisp.org/display/116895 19:26:05 jamief [~user@158.223.53.104] has joined #lisp 19:26:31 oh, because it takes &rest to :document. nevermind 19:26:54 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050065115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:34 stassats`: The current version means time for space yes. I am considering making versions for different compromises. 19:29:42 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:53 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:34:17 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:35:54 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-137.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 19:37:27 ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has joined #lisp 19:38:26 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:38:36 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:10 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:40:55 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.228.254] has joined #lisp 19:43:18 anyone know what is up with git://git.b9.com/clsql.git? I'm getting connection refused 19:45:28 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:34 -!- galiley [~user@77.70.2.99] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:51 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:48:00 carlocci [~nes@93.37.206.31] has joined #lisp 19:48:43 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51:21 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:13 ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has joined #lisp 19:53:52 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:10 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:56:02 urandom__ [~user@p548A2B11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:29 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:38 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:59:39 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host204-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:59:41 Craig` [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:11 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:32 Bronsa [~bronsa@host204-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:02:40 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:03:01 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.228.254] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:04:07 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:05:02 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.121] has joined #lisp 20:07:40 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:53 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host204-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:09:15 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:09:51 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has joined #lisp 20:09:52 mek||malloc [~mek@12.230.222.196] has joined #lisp 20:10:39 Does anyone know of a good resource or tutorial which describes methods for printing a human readable tree? I can imagine how this would be done recursively but I'm unsure of the formatting. 20:15:56 -!- Guest96643 [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:17:24 Bronsa [~bronsa@host204-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:17:40 jamief: it's been down for a few days. 20:20:25 Xach: ok, thanks 20:20:29 -!- spratt [~user@CPE0014bf3f85af-CM00080d79b684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:20:56 Guest96643 [~deanz@64.241.87.62] has joined #lisp 20:21:27 jamief: quicklisp has snapshots from a week or two ago 20:22:06 i also have a checkout from a few days ago or so if really needed 20:24:26 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:25:32 not seen quicklisp before, will check it out 20:26:18 designed in part for situations just like these 20:26:27 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:54 indeed, and thanks for the other offer, but the tarball will be fine for now 20:27:05 I usually use clbuild 20:27:40 ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has joined #lisp 20:28:56 jamief, I'd recommend giving quicklisp a spin, it's worth checking out 20:31:38 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:31:55 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.131.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:32:20 -!- pizdets [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:38:41 -!- sdsds is now known as Your_Face 20:39:57 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host204-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:40:25 -!- Your_Face is now known as hi_my_name_is 20:40:33 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:41:26 -!- hi_my_name_is is now known as sdsds 20:43:01 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 20:43:11 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:43:18 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:37 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:37 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:32 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.158.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:48:39 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:49:13 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 20:49:57 Guthur: yes I'm liking it, thanks, and discovered clbuild2 in the process 20:52:58 Bronsa [~bronsa@host204-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:53:05 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@2001:858:745:a0e4:200:1aff:fe19:d355] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 20:55:28 antifuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:13 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:57:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:46 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 20:58:28 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:34 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host204-173-dynamic.10-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:37 erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:03:42 antifuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:43 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 21:04:02 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:04:13 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:47 hun [~user@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:05:49 francogrex [~user@109.130.9.46] has joined #lisp 21:06:08 *osoleve* is back. 21:06:24 antifuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:48 I was discussing with some person at #scheme how disappointing that 'chicken' doesn't have define-macro... then he went into a rant that macros are bugs and that scheme got over them long time ago by introducing what he called hygenic macros... I didn't continue discussion because I couldn't tell if he's right or bullshiting. Is this also aplicable for CL as well, the macros versus the hygenic macros? 21:08:49 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:09:33 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-115-67-85.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:10:22 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-136-196-32.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:42 Saturnation [~dsouth@71.169.186.227] has joined #lisp 21:12:06 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 21:12:12 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@233-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12:39 lemoinem [~swoog@146-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:58 antifuchs [~foobar@ec2-184-73-244-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:02 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.79.62] has joined #lisp 21:14:16 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-66.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:14:17 The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:54 francogrex: macros in CL are unhygienic. the name implies that they're somehow dirty, which is a sort of bullshitting measure (: 21:15:14 spratt [~user@CPE0014bf3f85af-CM00080d79b684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:15 francogrex: it just means that the macroexpansion can set up names (variables or functions) that are not visible (but can be referred to) in the lexical context of where the macro is being used. 21:16:19 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@247-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 21:16:22 somehow one needs to get down and dirty to have fun... 21:16:35 (defmacro dirty (&body body) `(let ((some-name 1)) ,@body)) 21:16:40 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:16:57 in (dirty ...) I can refer to some-name and it's a name that seems to come from nowhere. 21:17:07 also that the macro can grab some state where it's expanded 21:17:17 right 21:17:21 you can avoid this in CL by using gensym for names that are internal-use only 21:17:24 and you should 21:17:34 it's just very convenient where you can document it well (: 21:17:50 -!- gonzojive_ [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive_] 21:18:08 antifuchs: i mentioned gensym but seems it was not enough to convince the guy 21:18:36 in scheme they have also gensym 21:18:40 well, yeah. I suppose the point of hygienic macros is that you don't have to be careful and use gensym when you write them (: 21:19:06 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-89-90.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 21:19:12 ok but using gensym helps avoid problems 21:19:21 yeah 21:19:23 so the guy was some sort of an asshole 21:19:30 I think he has a point 21:19:40 it's just that I don't think it's a big deal (: 21:19:52 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-89-90.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:20:03 ok; was easier to think that he was an asshole :( 21:20:07 francogrex: Try to right some macros yourself or read about it, you won't really understand the issues very well just from talking about ti here 21:20:13 *write 21:20:54 it's an issue of what the language permits you to do... somewhat like using integers as memory references (: 21:21:03 except not as horribly bug-prone, in general practice 21:22:32 Xach: hey. we on #lispgames are discussing a library for motion detection and motion control. possibly called CloMotion. for doing things like plugging usb cams into games 21:22:42 scheme macros are probably responsible for many a student's intense dislike of hygiene 21:23:14 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 21:23:35 so it's a thing where the language takes away your ability to create this class of bugs, but IMHO it also reduces your ability to create some useful and practical things. 21:25:01 feeling clean is its own reward 21:25:07 you can break hygiene with datum->syntax though 21:25:55 haha 21:25:56 what, they standartized syntax-case? 21:25:59 sounds like a fun thing to do 21:26:00 ok; define-syntax/hygenic macros can be done in cl as well? 21:26:26 francogrex: in principle, yes 21:26:41 it's in r6rs http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-13.html 21:26:50 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:27:13 can i combine loop forms? like... (loop for char in list until (eql char _) do...) 21:27:15 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:27:19 rapacity: no wonder half the scheme community cries bloody murder about r6rs, then 21:27:52 -!- kaemo [~mad5ci@d38-66.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:06 osoleve: yes 21:28:12 cool, thanks 21:28:24 thank the standard! 21:31:23 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:32:01 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-219-43.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:56 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050065115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:34:00 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:14 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-204-211.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:34:19 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:35:19 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.233.222] has joined #lisp 21:36:38 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:37:07 i'm consistently astonished by the power and flexibility of lisp 21:37:24 i don't get how they managed to keep the syntax so minimal 21:39:39 -!- Craig` [~craig@host81-141-118-214.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:39:57 anyone has an opinion about this book: http://www.amazon.com/Land-Lisp-Learn-Program-Game/dp/1593272812/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1290375527&sr=8-1 ? 21:40:42 i just got my copy, but i like it a lot 21:41:14 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 21:41:23 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:46:48 -!- pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:48:33 pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 21:48:33 -!- pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Changing host] 21:48:33 pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 21:48:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-165-14.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:50:28 does LoL use scheme? 21:50:30 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:50:46 Guthur: no, CL 21:50:54 neat 21:50:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:51:14 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:51:37 I've just registered for the Global game Jam in January 21:51:53 I'm wondering if there might be a few CL projects now after LoL 21:52:12 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 21:53:14 well, bye folks! it was nice touching a computer again, but it's back to rehab for me in a hot minute 21:53:19 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has left #lisp 21:53:56 gju I'm working my way through LoL. It's a good book, introduces some meaty concepts in a fun way. Parts of it are CLISP specific, so make sure you can install CLISP to save headaches. 21:55:01 ok for a learninge xample: this is a "very dirty" macro, how can one make it hygenic http://paste.lisp.org/display/116898 21:55:05 I SBCL, Slime and emacs, less painful to use on Macs (snow leopard) than windows? 21:55:14 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:55:18 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-135-83.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:55:48 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 21:56:09 <`3b> francogrex: why is that dirty? 21:56:56 `3b: (must you have ` in front of your nick :) 21:57:00 *`3b* sees nothing but loop and progn, and you can't rebind those 21:57:04 because variable captures 21:57:08 gadek [~konrad@62.121.148.46] has joined #lisp 21:57:13 ? 21:57:20 <`3b> what variable though? 21:57:26 -!- osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:12 I mean do, from for etc 21:58:27 the ` stops `3b being evaluated 21:58:36 if that happened the world would implode 21:58:36 <`3b> those aren't variables, just symbols used only for their names 21:58:49 -!- `3b is now known as |3b| 21:58:51 <|3b|> better? 21:59:07 Guthur: hah 21:59:47 -!- HET2 [~diman@91.105.248.18] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:59:53 |3b|: ok then it was a bad case, so this macro in its current for is acceptable 22:00:17 |3b| has now been evaluated, the end is imminent 22:00:55 <|3b|> (eq '|3b| `3b) => nil 22:01:07 true 22:01:15 ah false alarm 22:01:56 Only a matter of casing though 22:02:02 too close for comfort 22:02:19 <|3b|> and read base 22:04:07 francogrex: that's not a nasty macro, since the variable symbols are given by the expander. however, you should use (let () ,@body) or (locally ,@body) to allow declarations 22:05:48 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:06:18 jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-243-131.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:22 instead of progn, ok 22:06:32 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:06:56 <|3b|> francogrex: note that if you had called something other than LOOP and PROGN, there would be the risk of those being locally bound around the macroexpansion 22:06:57 I wonder what a nasty macro would look like then! 22:07:07 aha 22:07:18 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.62.117] has joined #lisp 22:07:23 <|3b|> which is a bigger problem in scheme, since variable bindings can break function bindings 22:08:09 -!- hun [~user@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:08:38 xan_ [~xan@70-88-149-185-smc-md.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:41 francogrex: a nasty (ok, non-hygienic) macro is one that binds symbols inside it; exceptions are: variables whose symbols are create with make-symbol/gensyms (generated uninterned symbols) and special variables (when documented) 22:09:02 but not in cl (francogrex looking for clues to go biblical on that guy #scheme) 22:09:23 -!- jmckitrick [~user@adsl-92-243-131.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:45 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 22:09:58 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-89-90.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:10:15 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@178.2.111.102] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:10:47 francogrex: What's with the anger? Relax my son 22:10:48 so here if I do (setf loop 4 for 15) nothing will hurt my macro? 22:10:55 the function<->variable clash doesn't happen in common-lisp because common-lisp is a lisp-2. in fact, it's a lisp-n, because symbols name a lot of things, they are just treated specially as two separate things by the evaluator 22:11:18 ok 22:11:51 francogrex: that won't. however, a (flet ((loop ...))) might, but that's unspecified behaviour according to the spec, so you simply shouldn't do it 22:11:54 -!- erory [~rory_elri@203-206-172-3.perm.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 22:12:57 francogrex: the spec only guards against redefining its own funcions/macros/special-operators, not against redefining any other package's 22:13:25 fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 22:14:15 since common-lisp is a lisp-2, it is also harder to make completely hygienic macros. you'd have to make sure that macro expansions and function calls were those from the (defmacro ...)'s environment, not the expander's environment 22:15:18 pmd: ok I see, but if if I undeerstand correctly, even though it's difficult to mlake hygenic macros in cl, it may not be an issue 22:15:22 -!- mek||malloc [~mek@12.230.222.196] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:15:27 in practice, this has not been a problem (at least for me and a lot of people in this channel when i asked about it) 22:15:29 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 22:15:41 <|3b|> packages also make it less of a problem, since you shouldn't be binding sybols from other packages 22:16:02 |3b|: but it's too easy if you :use packages 22:16:30 <|3b|> right, but i might argue you shouldn't do that either :) 22:16:53 *|3b|* would like to deprecate defpackage the same way require has been 22:16:56 ok, a slightly off topic : what do you think is the currently available scheme implementation that is closest to CL ? 22:17:16 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:17:23 |3b|: then i must start naming all symbols like (org.foo.bar:with-this-tremendously-utility (...) ...) 22:17:27 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:17:31 what would you have instead of defpackage? 22:17:46 <|3b|> pmd: no, you define a package local nickname for the package you would have :USEd 22:17:46 Taiyou` [~Taiyou@141.117.174.54] has joined #lisp 22:18:11 <|3b|> unfortunately, CL doesn't have package-local nicknames :( 22:18:18 |3b|: is that possible? 22:18:29 oh, now that would be cool 22:18:53 <|3b|> sure, there are a few packages that add it 22:18:59 pmd: in some lisps you can hack the defpackage and reader to add package-local nicknames and hierarchical packages 22:19:13 retur [~Adium@ip-88-212-32-27.antik.sk] has joined #lisp 22:19:42 hi 22:19:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:20:55 francogrex: there's no scheme implementation closer to common-lisp. in myopinion, scheme has come to look more like CL than what their proponents would like initially, due to pragmatism 22:21:14 or feature envy (-: 22:21:23 but still retained things like case-sensitivity and lisp-1 22:21:40 antifuchs: yeah 22:21:56 hi, can some1 help me with a simple program nqueens? 22:25:07 francogrex: but please don't argue with schemers, they'll just get to full continuations and say the universe can overlap itself in time and space with them, and what not 22:25:34 basically, it's a matter of taste: stick with what you like 22:27:23 jeti [~user@p54B47EA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:37 pmd: ok, won't argue, the reality is, I was trying the examples of SICP and wanted to test that's all 22:28:00 mek||malloc [~mek@12.230.222.196] has joined #lisp 22:28:13 pmd: Scheme was never case sensitive, only the most recent R6RS introduced that 22:28:46 nobody hm 22:29:00 retur: Don't ask to ask 22:29:49 drdo: true, my bad. most probably i was using an option that turned sensitivity on in an r5rs implementation 22:30:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-188.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 22:30:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:31:00 pmd: There doesn't seem to be much thought given to conforming to the standard by most implementations 22:32:45 Would someone mind clarifying 'format' indentation for me? I'm reading on the hyperspec page that ~n:I can be used to indent n times but in my test (format t "~20:I test"), this doesn't seem to be the case. 22:32:46 retur, You never outlined the problem you are having. If you are asking someone to do it for I'm sorry the answer is no. 22:36:01 Any feedback? 22:36:26 i need a willing man to help me with a school layout 22:36:38 mek||malloc: are you sure it is ~n:| ? 22:36:55 or ~n:l ? 22:37:05 homie: I was using capital i, not pipe. 22:37:19 hmm 22:37:25 retur: I think you need someone to help you with reading 22:37:41 maybe it was an actual L ? 22:38:08 homie: "n:I is the same as (pprint-indent :current n). In both cases, n defaults to zero, if it is omitted." (http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cec.htm) 22:39:56 It seems to simply add two spaces and not the number I specify. 22:40:32 Actually, it doesn't even do that. 22:40:47 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:01 It just disregards ~4:I it seems. 22:41:54 (format t "~24T test") works as expected 22:42:10 hm 22:42:30 jeti: That's exactly what I was trying to achieve. Thank you very much. Does the T stand for Tab? 22:42:39 yes 22:42:54 jeti: Thank you for this clarification, I appreciate it. 22:43:39 your welcome 22:43:55 -!- SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:44:07 Jubb [~ghost@24-151-24-155.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:37 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:46:10 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 22:46:11 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.9.46] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:52:35 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-129.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:57:44 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:58:12 How would I accomplish something like this: (format t "~nT ~A ~&" depth (first subtree))? Would I have to compose a string using depth or is there some way to pass format more than two arguments? 22:58:43 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 23:00:01 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has left #lisp 23:00:47 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-66-233.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 23:00:53 -!- ciaranb [~ciaran@5acba966.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: ciaranb] 23:01:15 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@188.56.183.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:02:10 For example, is the correct way to do it: (let ((fstr (concatenate 'string "~" (write-to-string depth) "T ~A ~&"))) (format t fstr (first subtree)))) ? 23:03:52 (besides the mismatched parens) 23:03:55 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-207-103.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:05:06 <|3b|> did you want ~vT / 23:05:07 <|3b|> ? 23:05:50 |3b|: It's possible, I wasn't sure. I just used n because that's how it was done on the hyperspec example for indenting. Does v bind as an argument? 23:06:10 <|3b|> if i understand you question correctly, yes 23:06:23 |3b|: This certainly simplified things. I will give it a try -- thank you! 23:07:53 Fantastic! 23:10:44 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:11:08 -!- retur [~Adium@ip-88-212-32-27.antik.sk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:12:51 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:13:20 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 23:17:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-204-65.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 23:18:40 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:19:06 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 23:19:17 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-137.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:21:04 rickmode [~rickmode@cpe-75-85-93-10.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:22 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-169-129.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:24:13 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.150.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:24:15 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:25:59 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.67.28] has joined #lisp 23:27:15 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 23:27:41 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2B11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:58 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:42 askatasuna [~askatasun@77-10-231-201.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 23:30:12 mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:08 konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 23:37:59 what is the deal with clsql-fluid? weblocks depends on it, but as far as i can tell all of clsql-fluid has been merged into clsql. 23:38:23 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.57.220] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:39:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:41:52 ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has joined #lisp 23:45:06 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d20.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:58 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:47:32 kraison [~kraison@70.90.182.149] has joined #lisp 23:47:37 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:48:18 -!- kraison [~kraison@70.90.182.149] has left #lisp 23:48:59 hi guys 23:49:12 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 23:49:41 if i wanted to create a window and draw something in it, even just print some ascii WITHOUT using the available windowing or sdl bindings ... how would that work? 23:51:09 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host109-153-50-34.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:16 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-50-34.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:51:16 i'm just going through the land of lisp and having a great time, i'm just curious HOW a window is drawn and defined underneath whatever frameworks are pusually provided for hti ssort of thing 23:51:16 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 23:53:19 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.134.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:53:22 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:26 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:53:34 <|3b|> you could look at glop to see how it creates windows (still need to bind to some OS level windowing library though) 23:53:35 -!- fgump [~gump@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:53:39 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:53:58 <|3b|> or clx to see how to talk to an X server over a network (no FFI needed, beyond possibly networking) 23:54:18 -!- PCMX [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:54:19 oh ... right! yes okay that makes sense. okay cool need to check that out further 23:54:31 <|3b|> for ascii, just print it out like any other text 23:54:47 speaking of which, with all the wayland bullshit out there, it might be time for us to write our own 'x server' ! haha, kidding 23:55:24 |3b|: i've been playing around with just printing out ascii text to the terminal, its fun for a beginner, it just got me thinking about the other question 23:56:06 <|3b|> holycow: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/clxs/ ? 23:56:23 -!- rdd [~user@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:56:32 thank you very kindly, i'm googling everything mentioned 23:56:38 <|3b|> for a beginner, it is probably better to go through something like SDL 23:56:50 <|3b|> OS level windowing libs tend to be pretty annoying :p 23:58:17 *nod* i downloaded lispbuilder it has lots of examples. some of them are quite impressive at what you can do in little code if you are clever 23:59:11 |3b|: oh, wait clxs ... haha! 23:59:15 dude i was just joking 23:59:24 thats hillarious someone actually started mucking about 23:59:38 i wasn't expecting that, thanks for linkage thats really cool 23:59:41 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:56 *|3b|* wouldn't be surprised if some of the lisp machines supported X