00:00:03 clhs read-char 00:00:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_cha.htm 00:00:11 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:02:03 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 00:02:37 For the record, minion is part of lisppaste, and is hosted on common-lisp.net. The whole project is chandler's and I do occasional work on it, and there's one other admin-type-person. 00:04:23 nyef, Is minion down for maintenance ? 00:04:36 or just on a sabbatical 00:04:54 udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 00:05:30 sabbatical? 00:05:50 One of the long-missing components to the system is an IRC connection manager that notices when a bot is disconnected. 00:07:03 nyef: sorry bad choice of word maybe, it often means a leave of absence now 00:07:20 No, no... I know that. 00:07:24 -!- netytan [~netytan@host86-175-234-107.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: netytan] 00:07:31 AWOL, maybe? 00:07:40 It's not down for maintenance, but... Yeah, AWOL is about right. 00:07:42 Odin-, better 00:08:15 <`3b`> nah, not really away, just not paying any attention to what it is supposed to be doing :p 00:08:22 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:41 On the upside, nobody else is using the nick this time. 00:08:50 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:08:52 minion: Thank you. 00:08:53 you're welcome 00:09:20 minion: Under what circumstances do you give that "reverse turing test" response? 00:09:21 you speak nonsense 00:10:12 nyef, Surely a connection test would be relatively simple to implement? 00:10:52 It's not as simple as all that, but it's not overly complex, either. 00:11:25 nybbles [~nybbles@216-19-190-61.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:31 can the scheme example here be done in cl as well? (run-scheme "bigloo") 00:11:36 bah 00:11:41 of course, it's much simpler just to poke it when it goes away :) 00:11:49 True. 00:11:59 But then, there's poking and there's poking. 00:12:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher-order_function 00:12:28 automation is the height of laziness, and laziness is good. 00:12:41 -!- tobik [~tobik@p54895C5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 00:12:41 yates: Yes. 00:12:46 minion: tell yates about lisp-2 00:12:47 yates: direct your attention towards lisp-2: is at http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 00:12:49 Sending EOF is very simple, but it takes a while for the system to recover. Restarting a single bot is slightly more involved, but is faster. 00:13:31 my method of 'kill the sbcl process' is probably not optimal 00:13:40 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:12 MIA is a much cooler term than AWOL IMHO ;P 00:14:23 yates: actually, that's probably not going to make sense to you... the short answer is 'yes, but see FUNCALL' 00:14:24 Missing Inaction? Sounds busy. 00:14:26 drewc: any particular section that's relevent there? 00:15:09 <`3b`> does that scheme example work in scheme even? 00:15:10 hmm. 00:15:11 yates: basically, cl has different namespaces for function and variables, so when translating from scheme, that needs to be taken into account 00:15:34 scheme uses a lisp1 scheme? :) 00:15:42 <`3b`> or if it does, does it do what the text above it says? 00:16:12 <`3b`> ah, never mind... scheme syntax is confusing 00:16:34 what's confusing about it? 00:16:47 yates: (defun g ...) (funcall (g 7) 3) 00:16:48 `3b`: yes, it does - i tried it 00:16:58 <_6502_> how can i declare that a parameter is not used because it's not needed ? 00:17:00 -!- real_sdsds is now known as real_sdsds_gamin 00:17:07 (declare (ignore my-var)) 00:17:13 <_6502_> thanx 00:17:20 `3b`: my preliminary thought is that it is more regular, and thus more appealing 00:17:22 <`3b`> drdo: i read the (define a ... as (defun a ..., while it is really (defvar a 00:17:56 <`3b`> (not literally of course, just how i should have parsed it) 00:17:59 `3b`: That says more about you than scheme syntax :) 00:17:59 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-27.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:18:19 quotemstr__ [~quotemstr@c-67-183-23-114.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:20 schmrkc: right 00:18:20 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:35 Are there any good CL libraries for persistent (i.e., functional) dictionaries? 00:18:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:18:59 Granted, you can use an alist, but the complexity bounds aren't very good. :-) 00:19:02 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:19:13 yates: If you are interested in lambdas and returning functions I can suggest #lispcafe 00:19:30 quotemstr__: fare-utils has an implementation using a certain technique i can't discuss for fear of sykopomp :) 00:19:31 quotemstr__: What about hash-tables? 00:19:42 hash tables aren't persistent unless you copy them. 00:19:49 Hexstream: hash tables are pretty useless in a functional context 00:19:54 schmrkc: heckifiknow 00:19:59 osxuser [~osxuser@217.118.66.101] has joined #lisp 00:19:59 drewc: touché! 00:20:22 True. I'm just having a hard time reconciling "functional" with "persistent". 00:20:31 my mind is bending under the pressure of learning all this new stuff.. 00:20:49 <`3b`> didn't pkhuong have a lib for that? or was it just a blog post 00:20:50 Hexstream: google 'persistent' in this context, it does not mean what you think it means :) 00:21:05 yates: Are you learning scheme and CL in parallell? 00:21:05 I wouldn't be surprised! 00:21:11 yates: one step at a time 00:21:15 drewc: Does "inconceivable" mean what I think it means? 00:21:31 any good link for "complexity bounds? 00:21:40 quotemstr__: actually, i have a persistent-persistent b+tree that is both persistent and persistent if you want to have a look. 00:21:50 <`3b`> more blog post than lib i guess... http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/Lisp/persistent_dictionary.html 00:21:54 Sure. 00:22:11 Oh, one thing I forgot to mention is that I'll probably actually be using this thing in elisp. :-) 00:22:17 in its bare form it's a simple persistent map, but the performance characteristics are not idea for in-memory data 00:22:17 3b: blog post, to give an example of impure persistence. 00:22:24 I think I've read a bit but I still can't find a way to accept input which is not newline-terminated. (i.e. block until keypress, not block until a newline appears on input) 00:22:26 drewc: I'm sure you understand that that's just missing the point, but I'm glad we're back on lispy topics now. 00:22:57 schmrkc: ok, using your cl version, why doesn't this work: ((g 7) 3) 00:23:33 yates: It doesn't work because CL does not evaluate things the same way as scheme does. 00:23:41 <`3b`> yates: CL doesn't evaluate the operator (g 7) in this case, and (g 7) is not a valid function name 00:23:58 yates: CL requires FIRST == function. 00:24:28 <`3b`> schmrkc: 'function name' you mean 00:24:31 schmrkc: i wrote some simple scheme stuff for gimp couple years back, so i know the rudiments of scheme. i've been trying to learn cl lately 00:24:39 `3b`: right. 00:24:54 Oh, so persistent in that sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_data_structure First time I come across that word describing that concept o_o 00:25:01 sykopomp: i was just taking the piss :P 00:25:25 yates: There are some differences. Like this one you have just bumped into. (funcall (g 7) 3) is it. Because (g 7) will return a function for you. 00:25:57 <`3b`> actually, i guess 'function name' isn't right either, since (setf foo) is a function name 00:26:46 ok, if i write (setf a (g 7)), then evaluate (a 3), i still get error - why? 00:26:47 quotemstr__: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116608 is my take... but really you proably want to look at fare-utils... the b+tree is meant to be a disk-based structure and is not optimized at all 00:26:49 <`3b`> is there a term for lambda form or symbol naming a function,macro or special operator 00:27:19 Thanks. 00:27:23 because (a 3) uses the function slot in a, while (set a (g 7)) sets the value slot of a to the function? 00:27:37 (in particular there is a few linear searches that can be fixed) 00:27:57 xinming [~hyy@218.73.131.230] has joined #lisp 00:28:00 yates: You're binding something to the 'variable slot' of a there. (a 3) will look at the function slot. 00:28:04 yates: exactly 00:28:08 right 00:28:38 sea4ever, It's not that it's newline terminated, you just haven't sent anything to *standard-input* until you press enter 00:28:38 is the whole reason cl has "function slots" and "value slots" because the two namespaces are separate? 00:29:03 mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has joined #lisp 00:29:29 <`3b`> yates: not really a causal relationship there 00:29:47 yates: (setf (symbol-function 'a) (g 7)) though. 00:30:16 <`3b`> having function and value slots is more the implementation of the 2 namespaces 00:30:30 yates: gold star if you tell why it has to be 'a and not just a :) 00:30:39 <`3b`> it could have been done in other ways 00:31:00 -!- osxuser [~osxuser@217.118.66.101] has left #lisp 00:31:25 schmrkc: because otherwise symbol-function would be operating on the value returned by evaluating a? 00:31:43 yates: Ok you can have your star. 00:31:45 Ah then Guthur, so it's my console's fault..any way around that? 00:31:51 schmrkc: oh goodie! 00:32:01 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:32:07 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:29 i must say i prefer scheme's approach to cl's in this regard 00:32:36 it seems cleaner 00:32:52 *drewc* hands yates a defmacro 00:32:53 Cleaner in some ways, less clean in others. 00:33:06 *yates* examines defmacro 00:33:09 I, for one, enjoy being able to use LIST and other names as variable names. 00:33:20 Mixin' variables and functions in the same namespace seems very unclean ;) 00:33:31 *`3b`* wants even more namespaces :p 00:33:34 yates: having two namespaces (and packages) make unhygenic macro systems less dangerous 00:33:36 schmrkc: so cl is for Jews? 00:33:44 I guess some people like keeping screwdrivers and apples in the same basket. 00:34:02 heathen 00:34:02 yates: Not quite following you there. But cl is for everyone :D 00:34:15 the keyword is "unclean" 00:34:28 never mind... 00:34:29 drewc: What all are there actually namespaces for again? 00:34:34 I think he's referring to "kosher"... 00:34:54 yeah 00:34:57 bad joke 00:34:58 `3b`: classes, blocks, functions, variables, catch tags .... which ones am i missing... tagbody ... 00:35:29 sea4ever, Not off the top of my head no, never tried to do it before 00:35:31 ok, so a) the wiki article really works in scheme, and you really can do the same in cl 00:35:52 *`3b`* would move constants and specials to their own namespaces too 00:36:08 i'm going to get a cup of coffee and some chocolate ice cream to celebrate my gold star. 00:36:10 sea4ever: apparently one can set one's terminal to raw mode somehow. that's all i know about the subject :) 00:36:19 +constant+ is a bit of an ad-hoc sortof namespace for constants... 00:36:20 <`3b`> drewc: are types a separate namespace? 00:36:24 `3b`: agreed 00:36:27 Same for *specials*. 00:36:56 btw, thanks people 00:37:04 <`3b`> Hexstream: exactly, if we find a need to do it by hand, there should be a real namespace there 00:37:22 `3b`: contextl has a really nice implementation of dynamic variables that i like.. similar to ISLISP 00:38:34 *`3b`* wonders how hard ++ and ** reader macros would be to write, without breaking their use in +,++,+++ and *,**,*** 00:38:36 buncito [~user@114.79.55.215] has joined #lisp 00:39:28 <`3b`> drewc: yeah, i need to look into some of that stuff at some point 00:40:21 oh man, simple-streams is a mess, i will never ever use it again, and i wondered why my packages would fail..... 00:41:46 <`3b`> most people use gray streams from what i've seen 00:42:13 i just read, it's not implemented fully even... 00:43:00 <`3b`> minion: tell homie about trivial-gray-streams 00:43:02 homie: have a look at trivial-gray-streams: trivial-gray-streams is a trivial library which provides an extremely thin compatibility layer for Gray streams. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-gray-streams 00:45:25 or, if you need something more Flexi-ble, 00:45:30 minion: flexi-streams? 00:45:31 flexi-streams: FLEXI-STREAMS is a library which implements "virtual" bivalent streams that can be layered atop real binary/bivalent streams. http://www.cliki.net/flexi-streams 00:46:03 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@188-126-70-108.cust.vpntunnel.org] has quit [Quit: hadronzoo] 00:46:38 ok 00:47:32 currently, flexi-streams is failing, either some dumbness in my .sbclrc or so or some real bug! not necessarily in the package or in sbcl itself but maybe slime or even emacs.... 00:47:56 -!- mrbug [~user@unaffiliated/mrbug] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:48:20 homie, Not a very helpful diagnostic? 00:48:26 It's said that flexi-streams is really slow so beware... 00:48:42 s/?/ 00:49:40 -!- wol [~wol@67.174.222.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:31 Guthur: that was not my intent, i'm already trying to fix it by means of substitution of character sets of various things like slime-net-encoding etc. etc..... 00:50:53 Guthur: couldn't figure out what it is till now 00:51:05 homie, oh ok, it was a call for moral support then, hehe 00:51:57 -!- buncito [~user@114.79.55.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:49 enokd [~enokd@sat78-8-88-174-226-135.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:17 -!- real_sdsds_gamin [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:56:05 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 00:58:48 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.201.72] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:00:20 -!- _6502_ [5e24ef29@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.36.239.41] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:05:20 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 01:08:42 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:14:46 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:08 hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@178.73.206.11] has joined #lisp 01:16:29 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:17:11 -!- hadronzoo [~hadronzoo@178.73.206.11] has left #lisp 01:19:41 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: movie] 01:21:04 -!- janissary [~bleh@64.134.186.231] has left #lisp 01:21:07 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html Just thought I'd share some Good News 01:21:18 that's a lot of green arrows for a dead language. 01:23:27 <`3b`> still only #21 on github though :( 01:24:52 sykopomp: interesting, Lisp was listed 2nd at some point 01:25:18 p_l|home: 1985! 01:25:22 <`3b`> clojure is all the way up to 18, scheme fallen to 23, elisp stable at 13 on github 01:25:54 `3b`: I don't even see Clojure in that page. 01:26:18 yet Scheme appears as a separate language, so I'm inclined to believe that by 'Lisp' they mean 'Common Lisp' 01:26:38 <`3b`> the tiobe page you mean? 01:26:42 we obviously need to start writing more CL software... 01:26:44 yeah 01:26:47 sjl_ [~sjl@173-86-138-155.dsl1-field.roch.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:52 Guthur: afaict, we already are ;) 01:27:13 i find these sorts of language surveys bullshit 01:27:16 embarrassingly I am not 01:27:24 C# unfortunately 01:27:46 -!- boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 01:27:48 Letting the team down 01:27:57 *Guthur* hangs his head in shame 01:28:08 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:29:19 <`3b`> yeah, if they have actionscript that low, they aren't doing a very good job :p 01:29:20 -!- sjl [~sjl@74-46-238-2.dsl1-field.roch.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:29:20 -!- sjl_ is now known as sjl 01:30:46 <`3b`> though i guess that could be just not popular with 'skilled engineers' and 'third party vendors' 01:30:47 "Any object can be used for the eof object that isn't likely to be returned from the read, which includes any freshly-consed object. The usual way to code this, though, is to use the stream itself" <---- that's a good idea! 01:32:12 (getf list :key list) would work too... i like it. 01:33:11 <`3b`> lists are a bit more likely to contain themselves than files are though 01:33:58 yeah, only works if you know the list doesn't contain itself at :key 01:34:08 which is most of the time for me. 01:34:28 boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:35:38 -!- lune [~claire@97.76.48.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:35:55 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:35:58 lune [~claire@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 01:36:09 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-136-51-90.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:39:14 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:47:12 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu246.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:49:11 Well, if your input stream contains several files, you could even use the object that is read as a file delimiter as eof-value! 01:49:35 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483CF65.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:50:54 -!- sjl [~sjl@173-86-138-155.dsl1-field.roch.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: sjl] 01:51:07 pocket_ [~pocket_@p4252-ipbf3210hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:51:13 Hello 01:51:42 Does anyone using Elephant on SBCL with MacOSX? 01:51:45 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:52:32 I try to install it. Then install process maybe forever looping. 01:57:27 -!- jimrthy [~jimrthy@ip68-13-249-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: jimrthy] 01:58:43 janissary [~bleh@user-1120nk8.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:42 pocket: wait a bit, maybe not forever 02:06:03 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 02:06:49 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-112-95.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:08:15 Hmmm... 02:08:55 I see many time like that: 02:09:52 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:10:33 http://pastebin.com/SRiy3ppt 02:11:10 mpedersen [~user@70.90.14.154] has joined #lisp 02:11:32 Wow. lots of people on here. Didn't expect that. 02:11:42 This message maybe printed 10~20. 02:12:27 mpedersen: WHAT DO YOU MEAN, YOU PEOPLE 02:12:32 just playin' 02:12:32 -!- enokd [~enokd@sat78-8-88-174-226-135.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:12:33 :) 02:13:10 and now to game 02:13:16 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 02:13:26 Heh. Just happened to ?/join #lisp" to see the channel. 02:16:37 So, trollish sounding question: Do people use Lisp for production code, or is it used simply to learn more about programming itself? 02:17:31 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 02:17:47 I'm highschool student. So I just using common-lisp for my daily programming. 02:18:31 <`3b`> yes, people do real work with it 02:18:38 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:18:55 <`3b`> (and you have now used up your quota of trollish questions for today) 02:19:46 I know I sounded trollish, but that wasn't my intent. I'm a Python person, and pondering my own future. I'm wondering if Lisp might be better for my overall plans. 02:20:12 <`3b`> well, as a python programmer, would you appreciate questions about whitespace sensitivity? 02:20:29 Ah, that's the one thing about Python that I simply cannot stand. 02:20:34 -!- ekpneo [ekpneo@cloud2.real-ity.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:20:49 <`3b`> or whether you can do real work with an interpreted language 02:21:18 Ah, I get your point now. I was more than a bit of an ass. 02:21:41 <`3b`> more that it is just too common a question, so it gets old pretty quickly :) 02:21:46 *drewc* doesn't understand where one would get the impression that lisp is only used to learn about programming itself. 02:21:56 -!- nybbles [~nybbles@216-19-190-61.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: nybbles] 02:22:07 <`3b`> presumably due to lots of people saying it is great but they don't use it 02:22:28 What I didn't make clear: In my own job searches, I rarely see an ad calling for a Lisp programmer. I was wondering if there's a job market that I've been ignorant of, or if it's more of an academic thing. 02:22:49 ahh. 02:22:50 And, by rarely, I mean "can't recall the last time I saw such an ad" 02:22:58 <`3b`> i wouldn't pick lisp if the goal is to learn something that will get you jobs, but it is a good choice if you intend to make your own jobs 02:23:01 that's a different question 02:23:22 mpedersen: I work in CL, because nobody else cares about anything but the end result. 02:23:35 <`3b`> http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/ might give you an idea of the market 02:23:42 mpedersen: the people that do offer lisp jobs are not likely to advertise in the places you are searching for python work. 02:24:19 (or advertise at all often... i know i don't advertise when i hire help) 02:24:38 *drewc* works in CL as well, fwiw 02:24:57 I've had a hard time finding Python work. Then again, I'm in a bit of turmoil as to what I actually want right now for a host of reasons, so I'm looking around, and finding some features of Lisp that I like the sound of, quite a bit. 02:25:51 learning CL to get a job is not really sane.. it's a bit of a lifetime language and there are not many entry level positions available on CL teams (that i know of, i'd love to hear otherwise) 02:25:55 (n.b., I switch to C++ when I must play nice :) 02:27:42 I might not succeed, but I am planning out my own software system, and with it my own company. I was thinking that Lisp might do well for the system, and then wondering if this would be a bad idea. IOW, would I be able to find people to fill the roles that I would eventually create if I do succeed? 02:27:55 my clients are of the sort that either don't care which language i use, or are specifically looking for lisp developers. The former category is a good niche should you actually wish to pursue lisp for a living. 02:29:08 mpedersen: you won't find as many lispers to hire as you would, say, java or python developers, but you're not likely to require as many lispers either ;) 02:29:27 mpedersen: there are generally lispers looking for work, afaict. 02:32:20 It's kind of funny. The last time I touched anything Lisp was college, nearly 20 years ago. I learned all the backronyms for Lisp. And yet, here I come around again, thinking that Lisp might yet hold some answers for me that other languages just don't. 02:33:06 warning: they may not be the answers you are looking for :P 02:33:35 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:33:35 drewc: *jedi hand wave* 02:33:55 -!- pocket_ [~pocket_@p4252-ipbf3210hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:02 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:43 -!- billitch [~billitch@cpc3-cmbg14-2-0-cust129.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:35:42 I'm not sure of what the answers I'm looking for *are*. I just know that I look around, and I see things that don't quite sit right. I like Python, a lot, but am not sure about Python 3.0, and am not happy about the direction some of the projects I've followed have taken. It seems like it's always more of the same old "nope, we made a bad choice again. Here, put in this new package, and let's try again". 02:36:32 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:44 mpedersen: it sounds to me like you might appreciate what CL has to offer. 02:38:13 I'm at least willing to look. Hell, I just switched to emacs from vim this year, so I can't be too closed-minded :) 02:38:57 <`3b`> well, thats a good start, emacs+slime is the preferred CL IDE :) 02:39:26 I did buy the PDF for "Practical Common Lisp" already. Also pondering "Land of Lisp" 02:39:45 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:40:01 mpedersen: You should ponder another book. 02:40:05 minion: tell mpedersen about paip 02:40:06 mpedersen: please look at paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 02:40:48 <`3b`> schmrkc: are you objecting to LoL, or just suggesting PAIP? 02:41:11 jeti` [~user@p54B47801.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:14 `3b`: I am not objecting to LoL. I haven't read it. 02:41:25 <`3b`> ok 02:41:34 Is there anything wrong with it? 02:41:39 Man, two CL books titled LoL now  02:41:49 *`3b`* doesn't know either, which is why i was curious 02:42:15 `3b`: I tried reading the free intro chapter, and looked at some of the code bits. That's pretty much all I know of it. 02:42:22 *sellout* heard good things  and from outside the CL bubble, even. 02:42:24 I also know it is out of stock at the bookstore. 02:42:57 From what I've read about it, portions of LoL might be more geared towards new programmers, meaning that someone who has experience might be bored with early pieces. However, the visual style and writing style appeals to me, so I might still get it. 02:43:40 -!- PCMX [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:44:08 But, a different question: Why paip? Why is that one worth getting over any of the others at http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20books 02:44:57 <`3b`> a lot of that list isn't things you should start with 02:45:14 schmrkc: You can get an epub of LoL from O'Reilly. It's half the cost of the printed version, and I prefer ebooks where I can, anyway. 02:45:26 -!- jeti [~user@p54B46BA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:45:47 mpedersen: I can't stand reading on my computer screen. 02:45:53 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:45:57 <`3b`> lots of stuff there is only historical interest for example, and avoid paul graham stuff until you have picked up some better lisp coding style 02:46:06 and writing in the ebook is troublesome. 02:46:30 mpedersen: PAIP covers a lot of area using nice lisp style and idioms, or whatever that word is I don't quite remember. 02:46:57 mpedersen: Not very good for AI though :) 02:47:10 mega1: Is that you on rank 1? 02:47:14 Okay, I can deal with those as good reasons. And I appreciate the warning about Paul Graham. 02:47:20 That's something with ebook. Does one of those kindlies let me write stuff in the book? 02:47:44 He's seemed like a very sharp guy, but now I know enough to know that he could introduce some bad habits. 02:48:17 schmrkc: That depends on a whole host of things. I know that Kindle can make notes in its own format. I don't know if it can do so with .mobi/.epub. 02:48:19 -!- Saturnation [~dsouth@71.169.180.213] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:48 Hmmm.. 02:49:24 One of my major reasons for buying paper books is that I can draw figures and type notes here and there. That and portability, which the kindle would solve. 02:49:45 *schmrkc* shrugs. 02:50:12 schmrkc: For now, ebooks are not a good answer for you. 02:50:35 -!- udzinari` [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:42 The best I've seen is from a company that I won't recommend anymore, irex technologies. They provided a device that would let you draw on PDFs (only, though you could read other formats). And promised a bunch of other features until their next gen device came out and they said "Woops! Nah, we aren't gonna do them. Sucks if you bought the other device." 02:52:09 bastids 02:52:12 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:31 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-179-143.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:54:30 So, more on topic for this channel: Is GNU CL a good implementation? 02:54:51 mpedersen: no 02:55:13 mpedersen: not to be confused with GNU clisp, which is a good implementation. 02:55:21 billitch [~billitch@cpc3-cmbg14-2-0-cust129.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:55:37 mpedersen: as for the irex... the software on it is just plain old linux on arm, you could hack the soft from newer hw to the older 02:55:50 mpedersen: Mostly you will find sbcl or ccl to be the good choice :) 02:55:51 (in fact, it even has Java 2 SE for arm) 02:55:55 <`3b`> sbcl and ccl are the most popular here, clisp and ecl may also be good choices depending on requirements 02:56:18 Ah, I have gnu clisp, not gnu cl. My mistake. 02:59:24 you are still encouraged to use SBCL or CCL due to better SLIME integration :) 02:59:35 taxLandonly [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:15 And that actually makes me ask: Why are sbcl/ccl preferred over gnu clisp? Yes, I'm trying to keep myself something of a free software person, but I'm not totally against buying software. I just need a reason (and I *think* that sbcl and ccl are non-free). 03:00:56 ... 03:01:15 GPL is more restrictive than SBCL's license 03:01:25 CCL is LGPL or LLGPL, afaik? 03:01:26 <`3b`> ccl and sbcl are both free 03:01:32 Should have admitted that I haven't read the licenses. 03:01:56 <`3b`> both compile to native code, and sbcl has a particularly good optimizer (but compiles slowly) 03:01:56 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 03:01:56 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 03:01:56 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 03:02:14 mpedersen: yeah. For a while I saw red and warning message of "GPL fanboy" flashed ;-) 03:02:26 SBCL is public domain (iirc) 03:02:28 <`3b`> clisp runs on more platforms, and cam generate smaller binaries than ccl or sbcl 03:02:53 I made the assumption, since I'm on Ubuntu, that not finding either via "aptitude search lisp" just made me think they weren't free. 03:03:32 <`3b`> aptitude is a bad place to get lisp software anyway :) 03:03:34 p_l|home: To some degree, that's fair. I prefer free. On the other hand, I've bought copies of Windows XP to run in VMWare. 03:03:47 nybbles [~nybbles@216-19-190-61.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:56 SBCL is derived from CMU CL, and carries the same licensing terms, a mixture of BSD-style (for a few subsystems) and public domain (for the rest of the system). <--- from www.sbcl.org 03:04:03 <`3b`> there are good commercial lisps as well 03:04:18 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-32-138.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:04:33 <`3b`> (at least their users seem to think they are good, i haven't really tried them) 03:04:57 mpedersen: there are few good commercial common lisp implementations, but usually the pricing is quite steep, but IMHO they don't provide much advantage unless you're writing software for delivery 03:05:31 or unless you are on windows ;) 03:05:46 jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-58-98.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:05:56 When the time comes that I need to know those advantages, then it will matter to me to ask. For now, I'll simply accept "Not something to learn yet." 03:06:16 <`3b`> minion: tell mpedersen about quicklisp 03:06:17 mpedersen: please look at quicklisp: Quicklisp aims to make it easy to get started with a rich set of community-developed Common Lisp libraries. http://www.cliki.net/quicklisp 03:07:26 <`3b`> ^ that plus a binary from sbcl.org should get you started 03:09:09 *mpedersen* kicks apt. sbcl was listed, just not via the search I did. 03:09:15 -!- devinus [~devinus@cpe-66-68-82-202.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 03:09:51 Okay, so switching from gnu clisp to sbcl. I can deal with slower compile speeds. 03:10:05 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-58-98.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:11:31 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-163-21-191.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:49 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A33EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12:51 ... until a particularly bad corner case transforms you into a compiler hacker (: 03:13:13 when is this paciuo fight? 03:16:42 so lisp libs aren't simply (load somelibe) 03:16:49 why because there are hunks of c? 03:19:03 <`3b`> LOAD just loads individual files, we use ASDF to load whole libraries, including dependencies, etc 03:19:33 <`3b`> (asdf is a lisp application included with many CL implementations) 03:21:22 -!- taxLandonly [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:22:51 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:54 -!- sea4ever [~sea@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25:33 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-163-21-191.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:26:46 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-163-160-87.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 03:27:14 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:28:21 mpedersen: don't use debian/ubuntu packages for sbcl or cl libraries, whatever you do! 03:28:53 -!- billitch [~billitch@cpc3-cmbg14-2-0-cust129.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:32:46 mpedersen: ASDF is equivalent of make and similar build systems, it handles build order, dependencies (in the form of other ASDF systems) etc. 03:35:27 stupid question, maybe: Why not use debian/ubuntu packages? 03:37:21 mpedersen: they come with a not-quite-working cl<->debian adapter. 03:37:52 ah, lovely. Okie, purging that out. 03:39:25 <`3b`> also, they tend to be out of date and not what the people here use, so the first debugging step if you ask for help here would be 'install from upstream' anyway :) 03:39:50 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:39:50 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:41:39 precessed by "oh no, not common-lisp-controller again" ;-) 03:46:20 bgs100_ [~ian@h140.44.28.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:07 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:50:44 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:51:28 dys`` [~andreas@krlh-5f722eae.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:52 -!- jerivard [~jerivard@c-69-181-250-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:51:58 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 03:51:59 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-78-43.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:52:52 -!- ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-115-64-171.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:53:41 -!- dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f7269e4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:54:01 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:54:54 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-136-194-88.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:02 jerivard [~jerivard@c-69-181-250-45.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:41 -!- yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 04:10:45 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:14:31 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:18:24 -!- quotemstr__ [~quotemstr@c-67-183-23-114.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: quotemstr__] 04:18:50 -!- az [~az@p4FE4ED8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:19:01 quotemstr_ [~quotemstr@c-67-183-23-114.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:40 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 04:24:21 symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:40 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Client Quit] 04:25:13 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:58 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:26:17 az [~az@p5796C7BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:07 Wow, that was not fun. Just now got a locally installed slime/sbcl setup working in emacs. 04:27:39 fun starts now =) 04:30:12 Once I get my dotfiles mess fixed up. I keep all of that in mercurial, so I can share it as needed. 04:31:43 <`3b`> just to make sure, you got slime from quicklisp, or from cvs (or a git mirror), right? 04:31:55 hm how come ? 04:32:15 <`3b`> as opposed to the ancient 2.0 release tarball 04:32:24 *humasect* has slime-2010-09-20 and feels a growing concern for the unknown 04:32:33 yes, you have to make sure you've not ended up with anything debian/ubuntu related polluting your lisp, and make sure you're using a recent slime 04:32:48 hehe 04:33:17 <`3b`> ah, i guess the release isn't listed on the slime page anymore, so that is less of a risk now 04:33:41 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/#downloading 04:33:44 Good morning everyone! 04:33:55 good morning 04:34:03 <`3b`> mpedersen: right, that should be OK, there just used to a bad link there too :) 04:34:45 That was where I got slime. I started by using Ubuntu's, and gradually had to back it out entirely until I had to download that one. It just wouldn't work otherwise. 04:35:06 <`3b`> yeah, you shoujld be OK now 04:37:08 beach: morning 04:37:41 *`3b`* can tell an input device was added or removed now, yay :) 04:38:30 -!- abend_ [~alx@delta.muted.org] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:38:49 <`3b`> actually figuring out any details will be a bit harder though, xinput2 has some messy data structures :/ 04:42:28 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:28 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:47:39 syntard__ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:29 Harag [~Harag@41.56.16.143] has joined #lisp 04:48:55 -!- syntard__ [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:49:35 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:50:27 syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:21 `3b`: are you writing lisp code to use xinput? 04:53:50 <`3b`> xinput2, but yeah 04:53:59 *`3b`* isn't bothering with xinput1 for now 04:54:11 any plans to release it? 04:54:26 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:54:58 <`3b`> adding it to glop, will probably publish my fork soon, but actually being usable might take a while 04:56:12 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-150.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 04:56:25 -!- Harag [~Harag@41.56.16.143] has left #lisp 04:56:32 *`3b`* can currently decode motion events, and notice something was connected or removed, that's about it 04:57:52 <`3b`> needs x.org 1.7.x or something like that i think 04:59:03 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:12 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:30 minion, glop? 04:59:31 glop: Glop is an OpenGL window and input management library for win32 and X11, providing a native Lisp alternative to GLUT and GLFW. http://www.cliki.net/glop 05:01:03 Heh, funny. I wrote such a thing a couple years ago, albeit only running on X11 ATM, and was wondering whether I should release it. 05:01:59 it was supposed to grow text rendering, image loading, and UI code on top, but it never passed 10% completion. 05:03:05 I wanted to add xinput support so I could write a demo that let me draw with a tablet, but put it off because connecting the tablet always crashed X :) 05:03:21 <`3b`> heh, tablet is my goal too 05:03:45 <`3b`> i could theoretically use it with what is there now, if i didn't mind hand coding device IDs 05:04:51 *`3b`* likes keeping the lib small and specialized though, text and images can be in separate libs 05:05:11 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:05:41 <`3b`> could see some UI building blocks being included though, not sure where i'd draw that line 05:07:30 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:20 seangrove [~user@173-126-13-53.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:52 *`3b`* will need to discuss that sort of thing with beach and patzy at some point, since i don't think the current glop API will fit my needs 05:10:08 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@143-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:11:17 what kind of super-secret hackery are you up to? 05:11:40 <`3b`> i just want a simple flash oriented vector gfx editor 05:13:06 <`3b`> (and libraries suitable for larger scale gfx tools/demos/games longer term) 05:15:23 `3b`: at least at the time when I was working with it, glop was intended to be sufficiently minimal that you just built whatever API you needed on top of it. 05:15:41 <`3b`> Ralith: yeah, unless you want to load 2 glop apps at once :p 05:15:55 ah. 05:16:04 I do believe that was not a use-case we considered. 05:16:04 <`3b`> or not have a separate connection to the x server for every window 05:16:31 why would that matter to you? 05:16:53 <`3b`> Ralith: well, as far as the multiple app use-case, i think the test file tries and fails to do that :p 05:17:12 <`3b`> dunno if the multiple connection thing matters or not, just seems a bit odd 05:17:59 <`3b`> don't remember seeing any way to share GL contexts either, dunno if multiple connections affects that or not 05:18:26 nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:30 share one GL context across multiple processes? 05:18:41 <`3b`> share data between multiple contexts 05:20:41 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:22:02 <`3b`> the multiple app thing is the main one though, or multiple windows with different behaviors in 1 app 05:22:31 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.243.170] has quit [Quit: all good things...] 05:22:40 `3b`: you can use multiple X11 connections to use different contexts, but I have no idea about sharing data between contexts other than using mmap with files 05:23:16 <`3b`> p_l|home: i mean the GL support for sharing things between contexts (display lists, textures, etc) 05:24:06 it's a shame there's no good way (AFAIK) to share a texture between contexts 05:24:12 <`3b`> it is an option at context creation if i remember correctly, don't remember what the limitations on it were though, obviously doesn't work between machines, and probably not different drivers on 1 machine, not sure beyond that though 05:24:26 <`3b`> textures aren't shared? 05:24:33 `3b`: It's doubtful, unfortunately, unless there were a specific GL extension allowing that 05:24:34 *`3b`* hasn't actually used multiple contexts in ages 05:24:46 <`3b`> p_l|home: for which 05:24:48 certainly not portably 05:25:00 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:26:45 <`3b`> ok, time to dig up specs :p 05:26:52 `3b`: for informing you about ability to share the data 05:27:04 *p_l|home* doesn't have much hope in that area 05:28:23 sucks if you thought you were going to write a UI library using OpenGL and not need separate copies of fonts uploaded in each process 05:28:32 <`3b`> If share list is not NULL, then all display lists and texture objects except tex- 05:28:32 <`3b`> ture objects named 0 will be shared by share list and the newly created rendering 05:28:32 <`3b`> context 05:28:47 hmm, source? 05:28:51 <`3b`> glx 1.4 spec 05:29:03 <`3b`> The server context state for all sharing contexts must exist in 05:29:04 <`3b`> a single address space 05:30:11 <`3b`> i think buffer objects are shared as well, don't remember if shaders are 05:30:51 <`3b`> wgl has a similar feature, wglShareLists() immediately after creation if i remember right, don't remember the limitations on that though 05:31:58 -!- seangrove [~user@173-126-13-53.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:33:50 *`3b`* wonders if erc can be convinced to ignore newlines if it gets significantly more than a few characters per second so i could fix multiline pastes like that before sending 05:34:02 enupten [~neptune@117.192.68.53] has joined #lisp 05:35:56 petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 05:37:44 heh, my Mac only does GLX 1.2, I wonder if Linux systems are more current. 05:38:26 <`3b`> server glx version string: 1.4 server glx vendor string: NVIDIA Corporation 05:38:35 <`3b`> (same for client) 05:39:02 *`3b`* assumes apple GL has same feature though, and pretty sure that has always been in glx anyway 05:39:49 come to think of it, my demo code is already taking advantage of this, using the same textures in multiple windows 05:40:08 <`3b`> yeah, glx 1.2 says textures are shared 05:40:24 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 05:40:26 <`3b`> well, you could also just use the same context for all windows :) 05:40:46 *hefner* can't remember anymore 05:41:24 anyway, what I was actually interested in is sharing textures between processes, which that address space constraint disallows 05:42:00 <`3b`> yeah, that would be harder 05:42:03 (thinking about how to make processes render offscreen and be composited by some other process) 05:42:34 *`3b`* wonders if the fancy new GL based X stuff could be hooked for that sort of thing 05:42:48 <`3b`> since window managers obviously do that already 05:43:02 *Ralith* wonders how the fancy new GL based X stuff will handle Gallium 05:43:20 they cheat, since the apps think they're pushing their rendering to a visible X window 05:43:20 <`3b`> would be fun to have a fullscreen game pretend to be a window manager so you could put emacs in the game :) 05:43:43 `3b`: this is how things should work. foreground app runs the show. 05:44:03 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:44:26 Anyway, GL needs to die a little bit. It really does suck for doing 2D UIs. 05:44:45 <`3b`> or we just nee openvg support in drivers :) 05:44:48 ^ 05:44:56 Gallium has OpenVG 05:45:06 so if you've got a r300- or r600-supported card, that works 05:46:19 pixel-precise drawing depends precariously on the texture environment, blending mode, and driver quirks, and binding textures is expensive enough that you have to jam everything into one big atlas 05:46:54 ..which means you can't use mipmaps and scale things down with nice filtering because you'll get fringes of its neighbors in the atlas, unless you put a ridiculous amount of padding between them.. 05:46:57 *`3b`* plans to play with trying to push all the 2d stuff to shaders of various sorts 05:47:28 *hefner* hates vector graphics 05:47:33 hefner: in what way is binding textures too expensive? 05:47:42 *`3b`* doesn't care about running on anyone else's hardware for this app though... couldn't get away with it for a mass market app 05:51:03 Ralith: OpenGL performance folklore, as I've long understood, is that many state changes, surely including calls to glBindTexture, can force things to wait and synchronize, make bubbles in the stream of work sent to your GPU, whatever. Point being that you're encouraged to batch together all drawing that shares compatible state, and cluster things onto one texture. 05:51:38 hefner: if that's true, wouldn't it work just fine to bind all your textures in advance? 05:51:51 <`3b`> Ralith: you can only bind a few textures at once 05:52:07 yeah, barring bizarre abuse of multitexture, you can only bind one at once 05:53:38 so 05:53:39 bind one 05:53:42 then bind the next 05:53:46 what's the problem? 05:53:52 *`3b`* wouldn't expect binding textures to stall the pipeline (though it might need to upload an as-yet unused texture, which could take a while), but drawing very small batches is inefficient 05:54:10 <`3b`> Ralith: binding is moderately expensive, drawing small batches in inefficient 05:54:24 and you can't change textures in the middle of a batch of drawing. 05:54:28 right 05:54:29 but 05:54:32 in a GUI context 05:54:37 how often do you need to create completely new textures? 05:54:57 what's wrong with just binding all the textures you need at program startup, one at a time, and then doing no further binding? 05:55:10 <`3b`> only 1 can be bound at a time 05:55:23 Ralith: Because that isn't how it works. In OpenGL parlance, "binding" means "make this the current texture" 05:55:27 well, with modern hw, you load textures in and then only fill vertex buffers afaik... then leave shaders to do their thing. Or so I heard through that one Intel guy from the GPU team that advocated filesystem-based 3D API 05:55:43 <`3b`> p_l|home: uploading and binding are separate things 05:56:11 `3b`: true 05:56:17 <`3b`> (uploading is /very/ expensive, but only happens once as long as you stay under the amount of GPU ram available) 05:56:35 hefner: oh, right. 05:56:37 I knew that! 05:56:45 but couldn't you reference a previously uploaded texture from a shader without binding? 05:56:45 *Ralith* blames too much lisping and not enough GLing. 05:57:05 <`3b`> p_l|home: no, shaders point to the same bindings 05:57:25 <`3b`> there is theoretically actual hardware corresponding to each binding, so a limited resource 05:57:58 <`3b`> (not sure if those have been completely abstracted away by programmable stuff yet or not) 05:58:19 hmmm... what about shaders running on multiple textures at once, how they are bound? 05:58:34 <`3b`> you have X texture units usable at once 05:58:51 <`3b`> where X is maybe 32 on high end new hardware 05:59:24 my ideal minimal accelerated graphics API has two functions: Fill rectangle, and copy rectangle between surfaces from src/dest, optionally alpha blended and multiplied by an RGBA value. Ideally with a way to swizzle the channels. 05:59:42 <`3b`> (it's actually a bit more complicated than that, since they have been split in 2, but i don't remember what the parts are off hand) 05:59:58 maybe that's naive, but it's what 90% of my lisp UI stuff gets by on. 06:00:18 I recall that DF for some time used a single shader and two textures which were painted on a single polygon 06:00:24 oh, and the ability to tile and repeat if the dest rect is larger than the source. 06:00:35 (i.e. shader got called with those two textures painting on the polygon) 06:00:41 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:01:51 `3b`: btw, display lists are not recommended on modern hw 06:02:12 <`3b`> you could probably do that pretty well, depending on how often you wanted to blit from the same surface to itself 06:02:19 <`3b`> p_l|home: except on NV hardware :p 06:02:21 *hefner* would be surprised if the number of texture units was higher than 8. 06:03:42 `3b`: even on NV I heard 06:03:42 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:03:56 my NV GF 330M has 8, although granted that isn't a high-end monster video card. 06:04:44 *p_l|home* hadn't seen texture units mentioned in long time, instead constantly hearing about shader units 06:05:17 and from people who worked with GL I've got opinions that one should avoid "classic" interface and do with shaders where possible... 06:06:28 <`3b`> gl 41. requires at least 16 texture image units 06:07:42 <`3b`> p_l|home: there are cases where nv optimizes display lists better than people can optimize modern gl usage (assuming you can afford the time for it to do the optimization, so static geometry only) 06:08:23 <`3b`> an experts only/special cases thing, and nv only, so the advice to avoid it applies most of the time 06:09:14 <`3b`> hmm, max_combined_texture_image_units minimum is 80 06:09:54 <`3b`> and actually, this is 4.0 spec, not 4.1 06:12:26 <`3b`> with 4.x i think you also have texture arrays though, which make the whole texture atlas thing a lot simpler 06:13:57 <`3b`> heh, according to the spec, minimum value for 'MAJOR_VERSION' in gl 4.0 is 3 :p 06:15:41 they certainly like inflating their version number. GL 4 sounds like science fiction. 06:17:34 <`3b`> they started bumping major version to match hardware generations, like directx does 06:18:17 <`3b`> so gl3.x works on directx 10 hardware (and gains any new features that work on old hardware), and 4.x is directx11 features 06:18:21 awful. I'm sticking with 1.4 06:19:00 <`3b`> and for the record, my gtx 260m reports 32 texture image units 06:19:36 I wonder what kind of insane shader can exploit those. 06:19:55 <`3b`> well, that 32 is shared between all the shaders 06:20:26 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:20:29 but can you use 32 in one shader? 06:20:35 <`3b`> so dump a few layers of displacement into the vertex shader, maybe some geometry shader stuff, then do a few layers of megatexturing 06:21:19 <`3b`> maybe a few used up for destinations of render to texture stuff 06:21:35 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:21:47 <`3b`> or use some for instancing parameters, or whatever 06:22:48 <`3b`> or deferred rendering might be another way to use a lot 06:24:36 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 06:24:36 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 06:24:36 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 06:29:03 xavieran [~xavieran@ppp118-209-36-236.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:23 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:32:15 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 06:32:15 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 06:32:15 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 06:35:16 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 06:49:56 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.192.68.53] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 06:55:29 Neuroneutron [~Neuroneut@bb219-74-51-38.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 06:56:15 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:56:36 <`3b`> what should a cffi:translate-from-foreign arglist look like? 06:57:57 <`3b`> docs say it should eql specialize type-name on a symbol naming a foreign type, but the example just does (type my-string-type) 06:58:15 *p_l|home* was disappointed by GL 3.0 07:02:41 <`3b`> google code search finds lots of examples of both styles 07:09:36 daniel___ [~daniel@p5B327A07.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:38 -!- daniel [~daniel@p50829BD5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:13:49 <`3b`> and does whichever form i should be using 2work on types defined with defcstruct? 07:14:53 -!- janissary [~bleh@user-1120nk8.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [] 07:18:53 <`3b`> ... and if it should be eql specialized on a symbol, why does convert-from-foreign convert the symbol to a class instance before passing it to translate-from-foreign 07:22:38 zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:34 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:31 p_l|home: what about 4.0? 07:32:02 Ralith: didn't really check, but I bet it's still the same 07:33:05 that is, 3.0 was supposed to bring reentrant, functional API as a complete replacement of the old one (even if it was still "immediate", the calling style would be different etc.) 07:35:31 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:36:14 sbadger [~sbadger@c-76-27-21-59.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:19 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 07:40:11 -!- sbadger [~sbadger@c-76-27-21-59.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:52:52 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:26 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:53:35 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:43 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:55:01 -!- quotemstr_ [~quotemstr@c-67-183-23-114.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:55:04 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 08:00:21 has anyone used https://github.com/bhyde/css-parser ? 08:04:05 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:09:43 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.228.11.235] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:12:49 <`3b`> beach: http://www.alu.org/mop/concepts.html#implementation sounds like it applies to something you asked about a while back, if you are still interested 08:13:50 -!- kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:14:30 kencausey [~ken@67.15.6.88] has joined #lisp 08:21:10 `3b`: Yes, I am still interested. Thanks! 08:22:08 So, it looks like SBCL butlast has a bug: (butlast '#1=(0 . #1#)) should signal a type-error according to the HyperSpec, but it seems to go into an infinite loop on SBCL. 08:23:45 <`3b`> yeah, seems so 08:25:01 bsod1 [~osa1@88.244.225.203] has joined #lisp 08:25:11 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.196.22] has joined #lisp 08:39:12 How do you break out of debugging level in GNU Common Lisp (GCL)? 08:39:36 <`3b`> step 1: don't use gcl ? 08:39:51 *`3b`* guesses ctrl-c, or C-c C-c if using slime 08:40:02 <`3b`> oops, /me should read before guessing 08:40:22 `3b`: still, your first step was correct :P 08:40:31 Really, GCL sucks? 08:40:43 <`3b`> google suggests :q 08:40:51 Ok, I'll use SBCL then. 08:40:56 Thanks anyway. 08:41:17 <`3b`> yeah, sbcl, ccl, ecl, gnu clisp, etc are better choices 08:41:45 iirc GCL still isn't ANSI compliant and barely anyone works on it 08:42:16 *`3b`* has heard it is improving lately, but hasn't yet heard that it has caught up 08:42:47 well, last official relase is still 2005 08:42:58 <`3b`> and if you aren't using slime, that would be step 2 :) 08:44:12 Thanks :P 08:44:13 another bad sign for GCL - in last year, only 5 entries in tracker :/ 08:44:28 :O 08:44:38 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:45:07 though fortunately it seems that they have some traffic on mailing list 08:45:25 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45:30 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:49:18 _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:49:50 -!- nowl [~nowl@c-71-233-2-216.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:53:28 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.244.225.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:54:54 bsod1 [~osa1@78.173.249.166] has joined #lisp 09:01:45 *`3b`* gives up on cffi type translation stuff, builds an instance by hand istead 09:07:26 <`3b`> yay, names of attached devices :p 09:16:04 yay 09:16:36 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:38 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-125-44.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:22:52 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 09:23:47 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:24:15 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:56 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:31:36 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:31:42 -!- nybbles [~nybbles@216-19-190-61.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: nybbles] 09:31:55 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 09:33:46 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:34:22 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-15-193.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:14 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:46:45 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@78.173.249.166] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:47:41 bsod1 [~osa1@88.244.169.91] has joined #lisp 09:48:56 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:49:24 lambda-nil [~jhuelga@142.Red-80-33-85.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:19 is it a good idea to have functions in lisp that will return multiple values? 09:50:27 or should it be avoided if possible? 09:51:03 <`3b`> neither (or both) 09:51:32 <`3b`> if you have a set of values that you will always want to use most of them, possibly you should be returning some aggregate data structure 09:51:56 `3b`: m-v may avoid consing 09:52:09 <`3b`> if you have 1 primary value you want most of the time, and some extra values that might be useful and need to calculate anyway (like in FLOOR, etc), multiple values might be good 09:52:12 yeah I want to return a number, hash table and list 09:52:19 and I need to use them all 09:52:29 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755dec.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:35 <`3b`> and for advanced use, like stassats mentioned, multiple values can be involved in some useful optimizations 09:52:48 edlinde: use multiple-values 09:52:56 I read somewhere that its good to use values to send back multiple things 09:53:02 ok cool 09:53:17 its actually a feature of lisp that I kind of like ;) 09:53:25 pretty convenient 09:53:44 *`3b`* wouldn't consider it that clear from the information given 09:54:17 <`3b`> possibly a better criteria would be 'set of values that you use most/all of, and might want to pass to other functions as a group' 09:56:41 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:47 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:02:49 -!- lambda-nil [~jhuelga@142.Red-80-33-85.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:04:43 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu246.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:07:51 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-136-51-90.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:09:02 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-249-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:09:55 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:09:55 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:09:55 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 10:11:26 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-232-166.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:22:37 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C944.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:34 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-136-78.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:24:26 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:25:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:28:53 -!- jrockway_ [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:33:59 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:35:15 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 10:40:39 Reader error on #, near position 3210, within "tart-node, item-val)": 10:40:39 Comma not inside backquote 10:40:39 [Condition of type CCL::SIMPLE-READER-ERROR] 10:40:56 I don't get this error message... its not highlighting the error in slime 10:41:09 whats position 3210? 10:41:36 edlinde: it means that you have a comma character which is not surrounded by a backquote character. 10:42:31 edlinde: are you trying to do things with backquote? 10:42:36 Can you submit that to slime's bug tracker? ccl's swank backend should be updated so the error is highlighted 10:42:48 beach: thanks... fixed now ... still passing in function args with a , in between :) 10:43:13 beach: Its the C that i am not forgetting 10:43:26 It will take some time. 10:44:23 hehe yeah.. but I am certainly getting the hang of it all (slowly) 10:44:30 <`3b`> anyone know if Xlib has a way to see if a particular value is a valid atom? 10:44:44 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:47:38 beach: just a style opinion, is it a good idea to write out the entire name of a variable or shorten it. Ex: header-table vs hdr-table or hdr-tbl 10:47:39 ? 10:48:14 minion, lice? 10:48:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``lice''. 10:48:42 <`3b`> edlinde: write it out 10:48:46 <`3b`> edlinde: if you don't like typing, get your editor to help you with it 10:49:16 `3b`: ah in emacs are you saying its possible to tab complete in the source code window? 10:50:12 sabetts' page fell off the intarwebs, anyone know where to procure his LiCE editor? 10:50:14 -!- Neuroneutron [~Neuroneut@bb219-74-51-38.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:51:28 <`3b`> lots of options, there is the tab completion (on M-tab, C-M-i, esc tab, etc), there is M-/ which looks in files for similar prefixes instead of asking the lisp, there is some other thing beach could tell you about for making shortcuts for things you type a lot, etc 10:52:12 ok cool 10:52:42 thanks 10:55:40 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-217-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: reboot] 10:56:23 edlinde: + fuzzy complete. w-o-f [tab] for example 10:56:38 chp [~chp@114.113.65.47] has joined #lisp 11:00:41 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:05 minion: SICL? 11:04:07 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``SICL''. 11:04:34 minion: SICP? 11:04:34 SICP: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at (HTML), (Texinfo), and (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at 11:04:45 Is that what you wanted pr? 11:05:00 edlinde: Write it out. 11:05:07 nah, the other day xach and beach were talking about SICL 11:05:09 ok 11:05:17 edlinde: you can use fuzzy completion if you don't want to type the entire name. 11:05:19 but dunno what that does stand for ;) 11:05:45 http://common-lisp.net/project/sicl/ 11:05:45 beach: is that what udzinari suggested? 11:06:06 edlinde: Yes. 11:06:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:06:29 beach: whats "w-o-f" mean though? 11:07:10 edlinde: Try it in SLIME, and you'll see. It expands to with-open-file. 11:07:18 edlinde: That's how fuzzy completion works. 11:07:49 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:07:55 edlinde: So in your case, you would say h-t and then C-c C-i. 11:08:05 Bronsa [~bronsa@host61-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:08:06 edlinde: And it would expand to header-table. 11:08:29 hmm ok 11:08:43 it would be cool if I could type the first few letters and tab out the rest 11:08:44 edlinde: You need it when you work with CLIM because it has names such as command-line-read-remaining-arguments-for-partial-command. 11:08:47 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 11:08:53 edlinde: You can do that too. 11:08:56 huge name 11:10:58 edlinde: Or you can define abbrevs: type header-table then C-u 2 C-x a l (for define-mode-abbrev) and then the abbreviation for it, for instance ht. From then on, whenever you type ht, it expands to header-table (provided you have abbrev-mode on). 11:11:41 hmm interesting 11:11:51 M-tab works too I noticed just now 11:12:20 Possibly, but the Meta key is usually hard to reach. 11:13:33 pr: Did you see the link to SICL? 11:15:04 beach: aye. thank you :) 11:15:22 Pleasure! 11:22:34 <`3b`> hmm, i guess those 'Atom's are sometimes 0 instead and i just have to check for that specifically... wonder if that is documented anywhere :/ 11:23:28 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 11:26:34 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26:56 netytan [~netytan@host86-175-234-107.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 11:28:02 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:32:25 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 11:38:00 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:42:14 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-115-98.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:45:32 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 11:46:36 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:48:26 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-11-47-6.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:51:36 tritchey_ [~tritchey@c-68-51-112-174.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:36 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-112-174.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:51:38 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 11:51:39 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 11:54:13 *`3b`* pastes http://paste.lisp.org/+2HZE 11:55:19 <`3b`> hmm, guess i didn't look up all the atoms i should have yet 11:57:38 *`3b`* fixes, annotates 11:58:49 *`3b`* wonders how the key class labels are intended to be interpreted 11:59:51 jhuelga [~jhuelga@142.Red-80-33-85.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:32 That is a lot of numbers. 12:00:57 `3b`, What are you working on? 12:01:18 <`3b`> that is output from plugging my tablet in then unplugging it 12:03:12 <`3b`> currently just messing with ffi to xinput2, next step is to try to wedge it into glop usefully, eventually to try to work on a vector gfx editor using it 12:03:38 Xach: congratulations on hosting a discussion about the ALU in your blog comments 12:11:42 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 12:15:52 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:16:25 `3b`: we're tablet buddies. same generation and size. =p 12:16:48 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:17:35 urandom__ [~user@p548A39C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:50 Krystof: that is a fairly loose use of the word 12:23:11 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 12:23:38 <`3b`> heh... from x.org wiki: "XIDs are too small: XIDs are 29 bits for some inexplicable lisp-related reason..." 12:24:10 I have an old xlib book by jim gettys that talks more about the concessions to lisp. 12:24:25 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:25:49 `3b`: inexplicable? how little research did the authors do? 12:26:15 *`3b`* assumes it wasn't completely serious 12:26:42 <`3b`> or that the inexplicable part was why x.org still let itself be limited by ancient lisps 12:28:05 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 12:28:05 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 12:28:05 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 12:28:06 <`3b`> or it could just be a side effect of them being apparently incapable of explaining anything about X :p 12:29:32 compared to the 32 other bits they lost to C not supporting bignums... ;) 12:30:09 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-150.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:52 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 12:33:06 fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-184-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:25 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:34:26 billitch [~billitch@cpc3-cmbg14-2-0-cust129.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:11 <`3b`> ah, maybe XGetDeviceKeyMapping is what i use to interopret the keycodes 12:35:22 jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 12:35:55 What's a good way to write the max value for a uint64? With #xFF you'd have to count all the Fs 12:36:27 <`3b`> (1- (ash 1 64))? 12:37:32 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:38:01 Heh, thanks 12:38:05 <`3b`> or (ldb (byte 64 0) -1), longer though 12:40:14 *`3b`* avoids finishing the though involving parse-integer (or read-from-string) and make-string :initial-element #\f 12:40:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:40:55 `3b`, When dealing with FFI what to you usually do in regard to size_t? 12:41:07 <`3b`> doesn't cffi have one? 12:41:15 umm maybe 12:41:22 let me check 12:41:24 *`3b`* would try that first 12:41:53 yeah sorry, my bad 12:41:56 <`3b`> worst case, cffi-grovel 12:42:08 CFFI covers the situation in the doc 12:43:02 oh, it recommends cffi-grovel if you want to be sure 12:44:47 -!- chp [~chp@114.113.65.47] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:45:30 chp [~chp@114.113.65.47] has joined #lisp 12:46:13 eek, cffi-grovel really is worst case 12:46:53 <`3b`> yeah, bit of a hassle, but really the most accurate way to do stuff if you want to run everywhere 12:47:17 I think I will come back to this issue later 12:47:23 unsigned-int for now 12:47:28 <`3b`> what are you \binding? 12:47:51 I'm rewriting the zeromq binding 12:48:00 I don't particularly like the current one 12:48:06 <`3b`> ah, seems like a lot of those recently 12:48:25 alot of rewrites? 12:48:31 <`3b`> zeromq stuff 12:48:35 oh yeah 12:48:44 It's a nice lib 12:48:53 I created the new CLR binding 12:49:00 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:03 The current CL binding is ok, I just feel it tries to stay too true to underlying C API 12:54:18 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@host86-136-51-90.range86-136.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:55:05 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:55:45 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:55:53 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@143-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 12:55:55 jconrad_ [~jconrad@host86-163-160-8.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:56:45 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-163-160-87.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:56:46 -!- jconrad_ is now known as jconrad 13:00:17 yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:02 *yates* eschews obfuscation. 13:04:40 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:48 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:10:20 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:10:24 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-249-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:10:51 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:06 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:12:52 josemanuel [~josemanue@152.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:15:56 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-136-78.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:15:57 Guthur [~Guthur@host86-141-209-196.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:33 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-249-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:22:27 -!- billitch [~billitch@cpc3-cmbg14-2-0-cust129.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:25:04 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:26:10 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-91.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:27:52 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 13:36:35 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:36:48 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:38:01 ziga` [~user@89.142.210.4] has joined #lisp 13:38:52 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067237.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:34 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 13:41:55 -!- ziga` [~user@89.142.210.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:04 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 13:43:17 _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.112.137] has joined #lisp 13:43:54 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@114.92.112.137] has left #lisp 13:46:41 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-248-40.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:49 mbohun` [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:03 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-15-193.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:48:12 Guthur: CLR binding for what? 13:48:21 -!- Salamander_ is now known as Salamander 13:48:27 ahh, zeromq 13:48:56 -!- mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:49:00 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0225.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:50:55 syntard, version 2, the initial one was created by someone else 13:51:11 but it seemed to be written by a C programmer 13:51:31 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0225.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:51:32 Guthur: yeah, just saw it 13:52:14 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.244.169.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:52:21 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-217-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:52:34 I'd be very interested in any feedback on version 2, it brings the feature set upto the current 0MQ version and is more idiomatic C# IMHO 13:52:57 janissary [~bleh@user-1120nk8.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:41 -!- mbohun` [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:53:44 mbohun`` [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:46 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 13:54:09 bsod1 [~osa1@78.173.248.81] has joined #lisp 13:55:17 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:57:16 billitch [~billitch@cpc3-cmbg14-2-0-cust129.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:23 -!- lusory [~bart@bb116-15-201-141.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04:16 c|mell [~cmell@gprs.mtnonline.rw] has joined #lisp 14:04:54 getting error:14090086:SSL routines:SSL3_GET_SERVER_CERTIFICATE: when cloning clrzmq2 14:07:00 mije [58b510d1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.181.16.209] has joined #lisp 14:07:34 i got download instead 14:07:35 lusory [~bart@bb219-74-139-235.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:08:53 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:09:08 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 14:14:42 umm, that's not good 14:14:56 Never seen that before 14:15:53 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 14:16:21 -!- mbohun`` [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:17:03 may be a github issue 14:18:09 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 14:18:17 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:20:48 Guthur: I build it on win64, it looks for zeromq dll 14:21:12 syntard, yes you need the main ZeroMQ library 14:21:20 clrzmq2 is only a binding to that 14:21:58 You should actually be able to build with out though 14:22:08 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 14:22:22 syntard, If you want to go private messaging we can try and sort it out 14:22:35 #lisp is not really the place 14:22:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:23:36 It would be beneficial for me to see what problems people face with a clean environment 14:25:06 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 14:26:40 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 14:27:26 francogrex [~user@109.130.148.52] has joined #lisp 14:29:12 in cffi foreign-allov has the nice advantage of :initial-contents so that you can allocate a whole list 14:29:21 foreign-alloc 14:29:52 in uffi allocate-foreign-object is the equivalent of foreign-alloc ? 14:30:53 makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has joined #lisp 14:32:40 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.49.133] has joined #lisp 14:36:16 -!- bgs100_ is now known as bgs100 14:36:18 there is cffi-uffi-compat, if you want to compare cffi and uffi 14:36:26 -!- bgs100 [~ian@h140.44.28.71.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:36:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:47 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:37:09 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@178.163.178.62] has joined #lisp 14:37:59 cffi-uffi-compat is nice as long as uffi compatibility is not a high priority 14:38:01 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-78-43.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:47 that implies it doesn't do what it says on the tin 14:39:43 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@78.173.248.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:40:11 it can't build cffi-mysql and some other uffi things 14:40:14 stassats: cffi-uffi-compat; ok I see it in uffi-compat.lisp 14:41:05 it "reconstructs" uffi from cffi kind of 14:41:56 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:43 i'll need to look at it the other way around 14:46:07 Tomheten [~bob@nl118-175-189.student.uu.se] has joined #lisp 14:46:55 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:47:20 I'm looking at the cffi src maybe the (defun foreign-array-alloc.. is /src/types.lisp may help me 14:47:48 bsod1 [~osa1@88.244.10.198] has joined #lisp 14:48:46 and (defun foreign-alloc ... anyway, this shows me that cffi is way more "complete" 14:49:44 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 14:49:59 ccchevy [~cchevy@81.253.21.83] has joined #lisp 14:51:10 -!- ccchevy [~cchevy@81.253.21.83] has quit [Client Quit] 14:54:50 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@178.163.178.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:55:02 -!- makao007 [~makao007@61.142.209.146] has left #lisp 14:58:07 -!- c|mell [~cmell@gprs.mtnonline.rw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:58:42 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 14:59:46 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:51 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.148.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 15:06:08 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:06:52 lispm [~lispm@f054052066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:07:26 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:14 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:08:42 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:55 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 15:09:07 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A39C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:09:18 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:11:18 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.49.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:10 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:13 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-150.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:14:06 urandom__ [~user@p548A39C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:19 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:14:43 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:16:46 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 15:18:46 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:44 HG` [~HG@xdslal238.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:23:47 -!- chp [~chp@114.113.65.47] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:26:41 beginner question: what is the corresponding function of mod? something like div, quot, ...? 15:27:19 clhs mod 15:27:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_mod.htm 15:27:57 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:11 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:30:12 Hm, thats not what i am searching for. I meant the integer division like (div 5 2) --> 2 (sorry for my bad english) 15:30:27 clhs floor 15:30:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm 15:30:47 churib: well, if you read carefully the link i gave, it would answer your question 15:30:49 churib: truncate, floor, ...; look for secondary return values though. 15:31:02 "mod performs the operation floor on number and divisor and returns the remainder of the floor operation." 15:31:06 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 15:31:37 V-ille [~ville@70.42.89.16] has joined #lisp 15:32:07 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:32:12 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 15:32:16 Thanks! I should learn to read more carefully... 15:32:23 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:51 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 15:37:59 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 15:39:01 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-179-143.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:07 azuk [~user@2001:670:a3:20:218:f3ff:fe2e:485d] has joined #lisp 15:39:31 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 15:39:33 carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.193] has joined #lisp 15:39:55 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:40:21 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:40:37 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 15:42:21 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 15:43:24 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:44:40 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:43 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 15:54:44 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:58 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslal238.osnanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:56:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:57:13 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:58:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:00:38 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:03:17 OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:34 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 16:06:23 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:07 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 16:11:51 kingless [~user@adsl-242-220-169.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:42 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:15:32 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.28] has joined #lisp 16:16:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:19:01 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 16:21:58 Hm. In Land of Lisp there is an exercise that princs dots in a loop to show activity. Those are all displayed at once in my repl. Is that normal? Is there something like flushing the output? 16:22:19 clhs finish-output 16:22:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 16:22:24 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:22:33 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 16:23:14 stassats: Thanks! 16:24:26 joswig [~lispm@f054052066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:24:26 -!- lispm [~lispm@f054052066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:28 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 16:27:18 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:30:46 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Quit: Updating Textual - http://www.codeux.com/textual/  :-)] 16:30:56 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:31:23 trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has joined #lisp 16:33:54 Heh. Last time I wanted an activity/progress thing I ended up using swank::background-message. 16:34:51 i used C-c C-c on a long running function to see where it is 16:35:29 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:36:04 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:40 fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 14085(tid 3055094640): no scavenge function for object 0xfffffffe (widetag 0xfe) 16:36:43 oh well 16:37:35 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 16:37:57 How'd you swing that one? 16:38:10 somehow through ffi 16:38:15 psykotron [~psykotron@c-98-244-33-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:27 -!- psykotron [~psykotron@c-98-244-33-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:38:32 although i was expecting a memory fault... 16:39:09 and now GC invariant lost, file "gc-common.c", line 211 16:39:21 i must be doing something really fishy 16:40:22 Could just be a stray heap pointer. 16:41:07 i was just doing cffi:mem-aref on what isn't a pointer 16:43:19 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 16:43:19 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 16:43:19 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:43:36 srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:51 tried to do that again and sbcl ate 1G of memory 16:45:07 maybe i'm setting another pointer to the wrong value in the first place 16:45:32 -!- chemuduguntar [~ravi@118-93-189-209.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:28 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:48:43 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 16:49:20 Heh. People get horrified by some of the stunts I pull in heap space, but it's /FFI/ that really screws things up. 16:49:53 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:54:48 psykotron [~aria@c-98-244-33-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:48 -!- psykotron [~aria@c-98-244-33-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:58 -!- SV_Nik [~ngkhatu@99-89-3-67.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:56:08 ok, got it, i was deleting a foreign object before using it 16:56:42 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:22 mreggen [mreggen@mistereggen.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:50 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-45.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:59:34 loomer [~loomer@pool-173-79-230-80.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:34 -!- loomer [~loomer@pool-173-79-230-80.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:59:34 loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has joined #lisp 16:59:56 me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-244-75.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:35 psykotron [~aria@c-98-244-33-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:30 -!- psykotron [~aria@c-98-244-33-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:03:32 -!- daniel___ is now known as daniel 17:04:12 -!- krappie_ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:05:02 wohooo just completed my first successful CL project ! :) 17:05:30 is there a way to time lisp code from slime? 17:05:33 -!- billitch [~billitch@cpc3-cmbg14-2-0-cust129.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:06:07 clhs time 17:06:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_time.htm 17:06:12 psykotron [~psykotron@c-98-244-33-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:36 -!- psykotron [~psykotron@c-98-244-33-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:06:38 psykotron [~psykotron@c-98-244-33-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:42 -!- psykotron [~psykotron@c-98-244-33-187.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:06:48 stassats: thanks 17:06:49 eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has joined #lisp 17:07:27 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:52 *stassats* cries at how painful is to debug FFI code 17:08:07 whats FFI? 17:08:15 minion: FFI? 17:08:16 FFI: FFI is short for Foreign Function Interface, which is useful for linking to arbitrary C (and not only) library from Lisp code. http://www.cliki.net/FFI 17:08:37 stassats: interesting... I have to do something similar for my thesis 17:08:56 I have to plugin some C code I written a while back into this DBMS written in CL 17:08:58 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@152.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 17:09:00 to extend it 17:10:56 stassats: if you don't mind can you give me some pointers as to what improvements I can make in my code? 17:11:13 speedwise too... though it seems to be really fast 17:11:40 i do mind, because i don't see your code 17:12:39 hehe 17:12:42 will paste it soon 17:13:24 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:44 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 17:14:13 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116626 17:14:56 stassats: its a bit dirty ... just completed it ... will beautify it later... but would love to get some ideas from you for speed or improvements in style 17:15:14 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:15:52 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@143-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:18:53 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19:25 docstrings? :) 17:19:26 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2211.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:19:41 sorry. I have a love for comments 17:20:39 (format t "~%~%") may be written as (format t "~2%") 17:20:59 stassats: was that for me? 17:21:22 do you have such line in your code? 17:21:45 (unless (null path)) => (when path) 17:22:06 (cond ((null child) a) (t b)) => (cond (child b) (t a)) 17:22:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:24:11 print-pattern can be written as (format t "~{ ~a ~} (~a) ~%" path supp) 17:24:16 ok 17:24:49 (format t "~a" "*") => (princ "*") 17:24:52 stassats: awesome 17:25:25 and print-prefix-path can be rewritten in the same way as print-pattern 17:25:34 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 17:26:39 and (loop for i from 1 to depth ...) => (loop for repeat depth ...) 17:26:52 ok 17:27:12 yeah the unless was like doing a double negative 17:28:05 when is so much neater than saying "unless (null... " 17:29:51 stassats: other than the style problems, do you see anything performance related ? 17:30:05 something that I might be doing wrong where I can shave off some time 17:30:07 i don't do performance without profiling 17:30:15 ah ok 17:30:27 can you give me some hints how I can do this in slime? 17:30:39 what profiling tools do you use? 17:30:48 you can use M-x slime-profile-package 17:31:05 or slime-sprof contrib, in case you're using SBCL 17:31:12 i use CCL 17:31:32 edlinde: On what platform? 17:31:35 you know when I say slime-profile-package ... does that mean my code has to be made a module? 17:31:39 sellout: macosx 17:32:06 edlinde: preferably, although it will work with cl-user too 17:32:15 I've used oprofile for profiling CCL on Linux (http://openmcl.clozure.com/manual/chapter11.1.html)  I think you can use CHUD/Shark or whatever on OS X. 17:32:16 right.. cheers 17:32:29 I got Shark 17:32:37 but I wasn't sure shark would work on lisp code too? 17:32:49 edlinde: http://openmcl.clozure.com/manual/chapter11.2.html 17:33:31 -!- loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has left #lisp 17:33:59 sellout: thanks! 17:35:54 sellout: seems like I have a problem with my shark installation on the mac :( 17:36:04 edlinde: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116626#1 17:36:06 shark FATAL: CHUD.framework failed to initialize: 17:36:07 Error #-11999 17:36:12 it may be written that way 17:37:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:37:26 stassats: thanks ... your way looks way more elegant than mine 17:37:29 will test it out 17:37:48 yeah, i didn't test it 17:38:28 georgek [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:29 Good evening everyone! 17:38:38 morning beach 17:38:40 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:38:43 mornin, beach. 17:39:14 stassats: it went crazy on me unfortunately... had to kill it 17:39:19 beach: hi 17:39:30 Ok. I tried #lispcafe. I'll give it a try here. Which one of the many html parsers should I go with? 17:39:32 edlinde: Hi! Congratulations to your first project. 17:39:33 beach: I just completed the stuff I was working on 17:39:40 schmrkc: closure-html 17:39:42 beach: hehe cheers!! 17:39:51 edlinde: making it work is left as an exercise for the reader 17:40:02 stassats: Cools. I'll look it up. I was worried it wouldn't handle the html5 :) 17:40:04 stassats: yeah am looking into it now 17:40:05 :) 17:40:18 beach: its an awesome feeling when lisp works in the end 17:40:22 schmrkc: i guess it doesn't 17:40:23 edlinde: Now we expect you to become a seasoned Lisper by reading up on material we suggest, by practicing more, and by occasionally asking questions when you are stuck. 17:40:38 chemuduguntar [~user@smtp.touchcut.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:39 hi, I'm trying to compile sbcl on windows xp, and it failed with "make: gcc-3: Command not found", though I have gcc 3.4.5 with msys -- not too familiar with msys, anyone know what I need to do to keep going with this? 17:40:40 stassats: Ok. I need some other one then. 17:40:46 beach: I can surely try... have you had a look at my paste? 17:40:49 i doubt there is one that does 17:41:09 edlinde: Not lately, no. And I have stuff to do now, so it shall have to wait. 17:41:19 beach: no worries 17:41:20 bummer. 17:41:26 Maybe some xml parser will work. 17:41:28 [like writing email to my wife who is in the US for a month] 17:41:30 beach: but thanks for the tips so far 17:41:48 beach: lucky you :) 17:41:52 edlinde: Pleasure, as long as people take hints and improve, I consider that my job. 17:42:04 job well done :) 17:42:19 Thanks! 17:43:29 beach: I noticed that once I got past the brackets etc (which I couldn't have done without emacs)... it was actually quite a lot like writing code in english 17:44:03 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 17:44:43 -!- janissary [~bleh@user-1120nk8.dsl.mindspring.com] has quit [] 17:45:05 edlinde: I agree. The high-level constructs like find, member, count, etc make it possible to generate code that is very understandable. I recently showed some code to my teacher of Vietnamese that made it possible for me to get an A+++++ on a homework assignment. And she was able to understand it. 17:46:54 cool 17:46:56 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:47:18 i really enjoyed coding in lisp to be honest 17:47:39 Most students in the class opted out of common lisp - calling it ugly etc 17:47:52 but the brackets aren't really that big a deal if you use emacs 17:48:14 edlinde: The exercise was about creating as many Vietnamese words as possible based on a set of letters. The code read: An entry in the dictionary is OK, if for each word in the entry each letter in the word is a member of the set. Then remove all dictionary entries that are not OK and print the other. 17:48:17 s 17:48:58 edlinde: What country are you in? 17:49:16 sweden (at the moment) ;) ... and yourself? 17:49:23 jimrthy [~jimrthy@ip68-13-249-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:35 edlinde: France. OK, so what is your native language? 17:49:47 english 17:49:56 edlinde: From what country? 17:49:57 yours? 17:50:01 aus 17:50:06 edlinde: Swedish. 17:50:23 ah so you are swedish living in france? 17:50:51 edlinde: I thought so, because I spent a year in NZ, and the use of 'brackets' is not used elsewhere. In US and UK English, they are called "parentheses". 17:51:03 hehe 17:51:29 edlinde: My passport says I am Swedish, but I have lived almost as long abroad. In three other countries (about to be four). 17:51:33 yeah I been actually travelling and living in quite a few countries all my life now, so bit of a mix-up going on there 17:51:40 yeah me too 17:51:54 so you are in the same boat .. you know what it feels like 17:52:12 man swedish is a tough language to learn 17:52:13 edlinde: I think you fill find quite a few people like that here in #lisp. 17:52:20 but you wouldn't know anything about that 17:52:26 :) 17:53:08 maybe I can learn to speak swedish with a lisp? ;) 17:53:15 edlinde: Oh, I know a bit. I worked in Västerås for a couple of years with some American consultants that tried to learn Swedish, and the question they had made me realize it is quite difficult. 17:53:33 yeah I know I know 17:53:46 edlinde: Vietnamese, on the other hand, is relatively easy, but my inability to remember vocabulary makes it hard for me. 17:53:58 my wife is swedish... so when I ask her what certain things mean.. she is like.. Ah I always took the grammar forgranted 17:54:12 you would have to learn new characters though yeah? 17:54:35 -!- kingless [~user@adsl-242-220-169.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:35 Vietnamese is written in the Latin alphabet, I think 17:54:37 And vietnamese characters don't resemble mandarin characters I believe 17:54:40 Thanks to the French 17:54:41 edlinde: Not really. Just latin characters with 0, 1, or 2 diacritical marks. 17:54:46 *Xach* waits for the lisp connection 17:55:01 #lispcafe ? 17:55:48 I think its relevant to talk about learning a new language :) 17:55:56 edlinde: Think again. 17:56:07 Xach: Today, I improved my application for reading Vietnamese (which is written in Lisp) so that I could read unnormalized (or whatever it's called) unicode, i.e., an a followed by an accent, as opposed to the pre-cooked letter "a with an accent". 17:56:20 beach: Excellent recovery! 17:56:28 Xach: Thanks! :) 17:56:35 hehe 17:56:48 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:57:05 beach: In what context are the unnormalized or whatever it's called documents appear? Is it easy to produce them in some applications or situations? 17:57:28 Xach: But since I know very little of Unicode, I am pretty sure my code is specific to Vietnamese, and I have no idea how to make it otherwise. The code of cl-unicode gives some hints but one has to know about unicode to really take advantage of that. 17:57:47 Xach: They come to me by email 17:57:51 beach: that would be normalized(i.e. decomposed) Unicode 17:57:52 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@178.163.232.19] has joined #lisp 17:59:06 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:30 fe[nl]ix: I am not sure I am using the right terminology, but I have been used to seeing characters like , but suddenly I receive emails with a  followed by an accent character. 17:59:59 Xach: any hopes of cl-org-mode appearing in the quicklisp? 18:01:05 fe[nl]ix: Emacs displays it "correctly" in that it fuses the two into a single buffer entry, but that buffer entry is different from the single character that I have seen in the past. 18:01:11 schmrkc: The hopes are much higher if you email me or (preferably) open an issue on http://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues 18:01:39 Xach: Ah cools. so that is the process. Will do the issue. 18:02:03 beach: http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ might give you useful high-level and low-level information. 18:02:04 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 18:02:11 schmrkc: it's even in the FAQ 18:03:34 Xach: Thanks! It was just a little bit too much for me to digest this afternoon, just in order to read the email from one of my correspondents in Vietnam. I might read it eventually, but not tonight. 18:04:57 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:05:22 bmel [~bmel@li236-165.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:59 Xach: Closer to home: I have read and improved 2800 out of 3800 lines of the cons-high module of SICL today so that they pass the test and conform to the recent ideas of error reporting. It is faster than I thought. 18:06:14 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:18 Xach: But I just read the source :( 18:08:00 lisp stuff with an informative webpage and all. pffft. 18:08:08 schmrkc: The website has some useful info. And be sure to follow http://twitter.com/quicklisp ! 18:08:12 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:08:37 Xach: I dunno. I think I would need some twitter account myself then. You're right though, the website is very informative. 18:09:00 *schmrkc* is used to randomly clicking around cliki and finding to sentences and a tarball. 18:09:36 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:02 *beach* vanishes to write that email to his wife. 18:11:07 Hi people. I'm trying to use a loop with multiple for expressions like you use them in a python list comprehension, but in lisp the loop iterates them in parallel. Do I have to use nested loops or is there some more elegant way? [[x,y] for x in list1 for y in list2] != (loop for x in list1 for y in list2 collect (list x y)) basically 18:11:32 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@178.163.232.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:11:55 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:10 mreggen: nested, yes. 18:12:58 Xach: Ok, doesn't look very pretty to my python eyes ><. Thanks! 18:14:29 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-218-110.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:52 mreggen: if that's something you want to do a lot, you can make it prettier by writing a function. 18:15:18 jao [~jao@83.32.170.229] has joined #lisp 18:15:45 mreggen: If you just want it to be syntactically prettier, you can always use a macro. I believe incf-cl added list comprehensions... http://superadditive.com/software/incf-cl/#outline-container-2_3_2 18:16:08 mreggen: Whether macrofying it is the lispy thing to do or not I leave to more experienced judgment. 18:16:26 A first guess would be no. :P 18:17:03 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:17:21 Yeah, no. I'm just writing a simple cartesian product function. I wrote it in python first and just tried to translate directly. 18:17:34 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:11 Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:12 The_Jon_Smith: Hey there! Are you still working on the peephole optimizer? 18:20:33 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:21:38 -!- chemuduguntar [~user@smtp.touchcut.com] has left #lisp 18:22:19 mreggen: using map would work, too: (map 'list (lambda (x y) (list x y)) list1 list2) 18:22:51 more like (mapcan (lambda (x) (mapcar (lambda (y) (list x y)) ys)) xs) 18:23:49 Is using eval in defmacro a mortal sin? 18:23:52 oh, I misread what he needed... 18:23:59 johanbev: yes 18:24:26 So, i want to create alet() which creates a binding it to the evaluated bindings of the normal let-bindings 18:24:41 this will probably send me to hell, but whatever, its sunday 18:25:07 i can't make sense of what you're saying 18:25:24 georgek_ [~george@c-71-227-168-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:34 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 18:25:55 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:26:22 georgek__ [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:41 just an exercise in macrology i guess, I want a macro, say alet. Alet should function as let, but also create another binding "it" to all the other bindings created 18:28:28 johanbev: I don't understand what you want :( 18:28:36 what other bindings? 18:28:55 -!- sigjuice [~sigjuice@c-71-198-22-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:29:14 -!- georgek [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:29:25 say (alet ((a 2) (b 3)) it) => ((a 2) (b 3)) 18:29:39 you don't need eval for that 18:30:03 -!- georgek_ [~george@c-71-227-168-87.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:30:05 so it expands to (let ((a 2) (b 3)) (let ((it (list 'a a 'b b))) it)) ? 18:30:13 is that a kind of "what not to do" exercises? 18:30:49 hehe, it's a kind of the training-set is compiling and i dont have any better thing to do, kinda thing i guess 18:31:02 you want to get to hell? pass the purgatory first, and #lisp is it! 18:31:12 :) 18:31:37 johanbev: Don't believe a word they say. eval is where the real power is and you should use it often. 18:32:02 it would help to at least try to formulate your enqueries in parsable english 18:32:19 schmrkc: you tempter! 18:32:34 maybe i should quit working on computational linguistics then :) 18:33:04 most of use are not computers, unfortunately 18:33:08 s/use/us/ 18:33:12 oops, (let ((a 2) (b 3)) (let ((it (list (list 'a a) (list 'b b)))) it)) .. this obviously doesn't need eval 18:33:13 but i guess not really knowing exactly what I want is a good reason not to mess with defmacro 18:33:30 well, I failed to parse "it's a kind of the training-set is compiling", but that may be just me 18:33:58 that would probably have worked better spoken 18:34:12 don't think so 18:35:01 im rerunning the training of a large parser 18:35:09 takes a while 18:35:25 Good time to go write that macro then. 18:35:43 johanbev: You can do it with just 4 evals even. 18:35:50 while the "code is compiling" ( bad XKCD-reference) i spend time writing useless macros sending me to hell 18:36:26 johanbev: Just write it without eval. Everyone wins :) 18:36:27 the parser will be very surprised to find you in hell when it finishes its training, I guess 18:36:52 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 18:36:56 i hope it's not sentient (yet) 18:38:04 -!- joswig [~lispm@f054052066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:13 TheOm3ga [~jose@84.122.7.221.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:20 -!- bmel [~bmel@li236-165.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:41:39 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 18:42:26 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:25 is there something like the cgal geometry library for cl? 18:43:26 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:43:34 how can I pass a function as an argument and then call that argument from inside the function? 18:44:01 I know I should use #' when passing the argument, but I do not know how to use the argument as a function 18:44:10 funcall 18:44:19 (funcall argument arg1...) 18:45:22 great, thanks zvrba. Do you know of a good guide for lisp newbies? 18:45:28 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:04 successful lisp 18:46:31 and "common lisp - a gentle introduction to symbolic computation" 18:46:40 the latter may be better as it has exercises 18:46:44 minion: please tell TheOm3ga about PCL 18:46:45 TheOm3ga: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:47:07 ok, thanks stassats and zvrba 18:47:34 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 18:52:22 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-15-5.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:52:34 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 18:54:19 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:56:43 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A39C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:11 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:58:12 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:59:42 krappie_ [~brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 19:01:05 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:24 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [] 19:01:35 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 19:01:37 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:56 -!- jhuelga [~jhuelga@142.Red-80-33-85.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:07:30 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:12:28 urandom__ [~user@p548A2FB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:20 -!- eugu [~eugene@213.141.157.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:16:36 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:17:12 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:17:24 c|mell [~cmell@gprs1.mtnonline.rw] has joined #lisp 19:18:10 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 19:21:28 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 19:29:28 janissary [~bleh@user-1120nk8.dsl.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:29:42 -!- janissary [~bleh@user-1120nk8.dsl.mindspring.com] has left #lisp 19:30:50 hun [~user@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:58 -!- TheOm3ga [~jose@84.122.7.221.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:26 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:34:01 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:34:08 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 19:35:45 is there a good fixed-point math library for cl? 19:35:53 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:36:09 if not, what features should such a library provide? 19:37:18 ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 19:38:13 Is there a need for such a thing 2010? 19:38:38 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:38:41 fixed-point? whenever you're dealing with money 19:39:09 or other things where you want decimals treated as exact values 19:39:12 schmrkc: fixed point is pretty important if you go embedded. we have a few chips that only accept fixed point as input. using float and converting for external use sucks 19:39:18 Hey that's a good point. 19:39:27 hun: Yes. I used fixed point quite a bit. But never done so in lisp. 19:39:36 nikodemus: i use ratios then 19:39:37 hun: I wouldn't embedd lisp, you see. 19:40:17 schmrkc: i'm currently experimenting with using clozure for controlling 19:40:31 hun: sounds like fun :) 19:40:38 controlling the world? 19:40:39 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host61-174-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:40:59 stassats: of course. what else is there to control? 19:41:30 *p_l|home* sometimes wishes he had the typeclasses of Haskell in CL, makes it bloody easy to add new "fundamental" types 19:41:34 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 19:41:48 schmrkc: we have a few fpgas that can do lot of interesting stuff. but they suck at some crucial parts, like sin/cos/tan. it's easier to force-feed them by cpu than adding hardware for a fpu 19:41:59 p_l|home: If fare or drewc heard you they'd likely advertise IPS. ;) 19:42:17 hun: what about using age old method of keeping cached set of sin/cos/tan results? 19:42:25 hun: Makes sense. 19:42:37 nikodemus: You've been churning out lots of nice libraries lately. Thinking about portable, performant fixed-point math now? PS: Any chance of sb-bench winding up as a contrib in the next release? 19:42:45 p_l|home: that would also use hardware ressources in the fpga. quite a lot if you have combinatorics 19:42:48 redline6561: uh, I missed the crucial parts of the discussion so I don't know much about IPS 19:43:22 p_l|home: Best reference I've got, http://fare.livejournal.com/155094.html?thread=526550 19:43:29 hun: yeah. BTW, do you know of any good resources on programming FPGA's for a beginner? (Preferably stuff that doesn't require windows to run) 19:43:42 hun: My cpu project is getting late :/ 19:44:09 p_l|home: http://fare.livejournal.com/tag/interface-passing%20style and look at the implementation in fare-utils 19:44:13 p_l|home: ISE webpack and lattice dolphin are available for free. only the newest FPGAs don't work in them 19:44:34 what cpu project are you working on? i did quite a few, might be able to help you 19:45:32 p_l|home: the only problem might be simulators. ghdl+gtkwave sucks for designs bigger than hello world. modelsim PE is available for free for students, but only for windows. works fine in qemu/kvm. 19:45:33 hun: I was trying to learn enough about FPGAs to implement MMIX (2009) in hardware, the architecture that replaces MIX for new editions of The Art of Computer Programming. A 64bit RISC with *lots* of registers 19:45:55 cool :) i used MMIX a bit, but only in the simulator 19:46:15 p_l|home: have a look at http://opencores.org/project,hicovec 19:46:36 hun: yeah, my hope is to get it into good enough shape to manage an order of several 45nm units 19:47:00 that's a project of our uni. i did a gcc backend for that cpu. hope that project will grow further 19:47:12 (enough to make a workstation that can be used seriously) 19:47:17 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:47:33 that's quite a task. especially adding enough software to make it usable 19:48:07 MorganB [ylDLqh0bgu@lin114-10.cise.ufl.edu] has joined #lisp 19:48:09 yeah, but fortunately there's a GCC backend already :) 19:48:26 you are not even trying to make a lisp cpu! 19:48:37 yeah, but it doesn't generate that great code. i used it for.... orientation :) 19:49:26 stassats: one of the options for the "workstation" was to keep the cpu in FPGA form with user-accessible reprogramming tool, so you could change the CPU into a Lisp-specific one, for example 19:54:00 -!- konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:56:04 redline6561: sb-bench won't make it as a contrib that soon 19:56:16 nikodemus: Got it. Thanks. 19:56:28 benny` [~benny@i577A73E1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:37 Your other option would be to write an MMIX backend for SBCL. :-P 19:56:43 i've bunch stuff done for it, but haven't pushed yet because i'm thinking about how to slice things 19:57:00 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755dec.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:05 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:57:26 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 19:57:31 redline6561: if you have uses for it, i can update the repo next week, though. i think 19:57:38 but it's still in flux 19:57:51 but yes, i'm thinking about fixed point 19:58:03 nikodemus: I'm interested in playing with it but can't quite say I have an immediate need. Keep experimenting with what works best. Is the fixed point related to screamer or other projects? 19:58:20 redline6561: just something i thought might be nice 19:58:34 Awesome. :) 19:58:39 something easy to make portable, but where i can play tricks with sbcl to make it fast there 19:58:56 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:59:16 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-163-160-8.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:59:19 nyef: after I port OpenFirmware to it :P 19:59:25 like shadow +, -, etc to make them work with #d100.01 but still allow them to be fast for regular numbers and not too sucky for decimals wither 19:59:27 either, even 20:01:31 ericklc [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 20:02:20 umm, is just me or does anyone else think there should be a Dispose method (called during GC) 20:03:02 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:03:09 guther: where? or maybe something like FINALIZE in SBCL? 20:03:13 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:03:13 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 20:03:35 ehu, In CL 20:03:48 maybe like finalize, but that is SBCL 20:04:00 Guthur: should, maybe. but the spec doesn't require it. 20:04:11 minion: trivial-garbage 20:04:13 trivial-garbage: trivial-garbage is a library that provides a portable API to finalizers, weak hash-tables and weak pointers. http://www.cliki.net/trivial-garbage 20:04:16 ^ 20:04:24 awesome, cheers p_l|home 20:04:29 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:33 jconrad [~jconrad@host86-147-40-121.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:03 but true, they aren't required by spec and I have heard voices disputing their usability (outside of certain areas, I'm willing to agree) 20:05:14 a gc isn't required by the spec 20:05:18 konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 20:05:36 p_l|home, It makes foreign memory a pain in the butt 20:05:42 hmm. that's probably not supported by all implementations (I can't imagine it being supported on ABCL) 20:05:46 Unless you wrap everything in with macros 20:06:10 ehu, trivial-garbage is not supported by ABCL 20:06:21 I have ran into that problem already 20:06:27 Guthur: tg works on sbcl 20:06:47 -!- mije [58b510d1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.181.16.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:06:50 Guthur: we can probably make it work on ABCL though. 20:07:06 ehu: Would be nice, it's quite common 20:07:12 oh, I read abcl as sbcl :X 20:07:15 well reasonably common 20:07:21 ehu: why not? Finalizers exist in Java, after all 20:07:22 adeht, I thought that, hehe 20:07:47 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@143-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 20:08:00 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:08:39 weak pointers should be trivial :-) 20:09:03 damn, clojure has slow bootstrap 20:09:08 -!- ericklc [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:09:14 (or rather, boot) 20:09:20 p_l|home: how slow? 20:09:57 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 20:10:09 ehu: startup with warm cache = SBCL with cold cache 20:10:18 Java 7, x86-64, linux 20:10:33 oh. seconds. 20:10:37 standard clj wrapper 20:10:53 with clojure 1.2 and SBCL 1.0.42 20:11:05 I'm affraid that's normal for any Java based dynamic language. 20:11:17 or maybe even non-dynamic ones. 20:11:20 dfkjjkfd_ [~paulh@143-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 20:11:23 -!- dfkjjkfd_ [~paulh@143-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:11:43 well, I'll admit that it's partially due to my Java running in server mode 20:12:34 ericklc [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has joined #lisp 20:12:57 though with -Xint it isn't much faster 20:13:27 server mode is probably going to help you only on longer runs. 20:13:41 Can't you use a cordic for sin/cos/tan? 20:13:42 it needs to build its statistics first. 20:14:25 ehu: it also immediately JITs the code, which adds startup overhead 20:16:38 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki 20:18:38 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.28] has joined #lisp 20:20:25 jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:54 Is there a standard way to express a key or test function on CASE? 20:21:33 jcowan: maybe you want Cond instead 20:21:41 clhs: cond 20:21:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm 20:22:52 Sure, anything CASE can do, COND can do too. But something like (case :key equal (((1 2 3) (4 5 6)) ...) (((7 8 9)) ...)) would be a Good Thing. 20:23:02 s/equal/#'equal 20:23:29 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.155.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:26:30 nybbles [~nybbles@216-19-190-61.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:17 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 20:28:06 Madsy [~madman@fu/coder/madsy] has joined #lisp 20:29:53 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:33:50 for trivial-garbage finalize it says; For portability reasons, FUNCTION should not attempt to look at OBJECT by closing over it 20:34:05 considering FUNCTION takes no arguments how else is it to get OBJECT 20:34:13 am I missing something obvious 20:35:40 Guthur: when a file-stream gets finalized, don't refer to the file stream, just close over the handle instead. 20:37:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:37:29 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 20:37:43 ehu: I was going to do something like that 20:38:26 I just closed over the foreign-pointer, it's just seems a little strange, because FUNCTION is also suppose to return OBJECT 20:38:50 -!- benny` is now known as benny 20:38:53 guther: no. finalize does. 20:38:53 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:39:41 ah oops 20:39:45 I missed the full stop 20:39:57 makes loads more sense now, cheers ehu 20:40:07 np. 20:40:40 I read 'FUNCTION should take no arguments. Returns OBJECT.' as 'FUNCTION should take no arguments, returns OBJECT.' 20:41:10 yea, but since you can't refer to it, that would be rather impractical. 20:42:10 exactly, which was baffling me 20:42:18 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 20:42:20 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 20:44:29 btw, concerning nikodemus' post about *earmuffs*: I for one use perl-style $notation for temporary variables I define in repl for _repl-only_ use. It's quicker to type than *earmuffed* variables. I also have sv as an alias for defparameter for use in repl. 20:50:47 carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.193] has joined #lisp 20:51:06 churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:21 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:54:28 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:55:01 adu [~ajr@64.134.242.23] has joined #lisp 20:55:24 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-105-45.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:55:44 -!- c|mell [~cmell@gprs1.mtnonline.rw] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:55:55 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:56:34 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-11-19.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 20:57:14 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 20:58:43 dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 20:58:43 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host86-147-40-121.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:59:10 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:59:10 -!- andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:00:29 Has anyone heard of http://www.beelisp.com/? 21:00:35 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 21:01:10 It says it's "an expandable compiler for The Lisp language" 21:01:21 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:01:23 Which seems a little  vague. 21:05:25 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 21:07:05 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:07:07 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 21:11:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:11:24 sellout: Not to mention a bazillion little mistakes in the English on the site... 21:11:45 Sorry. I had a look at more of it. Not little. 21:12:23 -!- konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has left #lisp 21:12:37 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 21:13:11 It's certainly the cheapest commercial compiler, by a long way 21:13:28 -!- adu [~ajr@64.134.242.23] has quit [Quit: adu] 21:14:51 what function do I call in slime to determine what lisp version I'm running? 21:15:18 I wouldn't be surprised if it's not derived from a certain barely-known CL implementation in Russia... 21:15:34 (lisp-implementation-type) 21:15:35 the dialect looks like CL 21:15:51 or (lisp-implementation-version), but that's lisp side not slime 21:16:00 yeah, sounds like the russian one 21:16:13 ... really cheap, though 21:16:28 hehe yeap £15 + VAT 21:16:34 yep 21:16:40 It's russian, alright. 21:17:13 The mangled grammar is all the proof you should need of that, really. :p 21:17:20 grrr, Ubuntu keeps turning on Mouse-Keys, and it's doing my head in 21:17:21 I wonder if it's better than Corman 21:17:28 p_l|home: what implementation ? 21:17:29 I need to change distro 21:18:55 fe[nl]ix: BEE Lisp compared to Corman 21:19:05 my main issue with Corman was lack of unicode support 21:20:23 p_l|home: Could cl-unicode compensate for that? 21:20:50 -!- georgek__ [~george@c-24-17-224-196.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:21:12 beach: no idea 21:22:23 It also had some minor annoyances other than that, but it's still the cheapest commercial *CL* implementation on Windows. I'm unsure regarding the level of ANSI-compliance in BEE Lisp 21:23:37 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:24:23 symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:33 $250 with full deployment license? :) 21:25:36 ivan4th: You use dollarsign-prefixed names for REPL variables? Ever considered using $ as a macro-character for doing TeX math markup parsing and turning the result into executable code instead? 21:27:39 The scary bit is how utterly feasible that is. 21:27:40 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:28:29 Lycurgus [~juan@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:10 I've been watching the SICP videos and the guys says you are only limited by our imagination when it comes to programs, or something to that effect, so everything is feasible, hehe 21:30:21 you/ew 21:30:24 you/we 21:31:06 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 21:32:11 -!- churib [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:32:14 jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-52-25.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:28 Guthur: The problem comes with imagining a proof for P=NP. 21:32:47 *Xach* imagines a nice Google Data client 21:33:30 nyef: Well he didn't say there was no limits... 21:33:46 We need bigger minds obviously 21:36:07 -!- nybbles [~nybbles@216-19-190-61.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: nybbles] 21:36:36 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:44 sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:37:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:38:13 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:40:04 Makoryu [~bloodgog@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:42 -!- sohail [~Adium@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 21:41:29 lurker-x [~androirc@c-75-72-99-111.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:30 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 21:44:19 tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:38 -!- trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:46:41 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:48:41 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:51:15 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:51:55 sbadger [~sbadger@c-76-27-21-59.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:09 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:52:35 trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has joined #lisp 21:53:19 khumba [~khumba@S010600259ce46bb1.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:50 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-136-78.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 21:54:59 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:55:34 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 21:55:39 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 21:56:38 billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 21:56:38 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 21:56:38 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:57:38 umm I think I have a need for that interface passing stuff 21:57:48 that discussion was well timed 21:59:58 -!- trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:01:48 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:02:03 Vivitron [ad4c080a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.76.8.10] has joined #lisp 22:05:53 mek||malloc [~mek@12.230.222.196] has joined #lisp 22:06:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:07:09 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 22:08:11 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:08:37 trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has joined #lisp 22:09:00 Hi folks, I have a quick question about lexical scoping. If I make a function to bar like: (lambda () (let ((this-array (make-array 4))) (bar this-array))) and then in bar I perform a setf on the array, I am only effecting the copy in bar's scope, right? Not foo's? 22:09:10 If I make a call to bar* 22:09:34 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 22:10:23 There is only one copy of the array in memory; effectively you're passing a pointer to the array to bar. So this-array appears changed to that lambda function as well. 22:10:54 khumba: Ah, thanks. 22:11:47 khumba: Is there a way to generate a copy of an array (other than iteratively building it)? Can arrays be used as :initial-contents, perhaps? 22:11:55 mek||malloc, no prob. I found learning CL really made me rethink how lexical scope works (coming from Java, etc.) 22:12:11 Yes, :initial-contents works :) 22:12:20 khumba: Thanks again :o) 22:12:26 dlowe [~dlowe@c-66-30-112-95.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:50 mek||malloc: if it's a vector you're interested in (that is, a 1D array), you can also use copy-seq 22:14:18 (let ((vec-foo (copy-seq vec-bar)) .. ) ;; for instance? 22:14:33 -!- V-ille [~ville@70.42.89.16] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:14:56 Assuming vec-bar only has one dimension, that is. 22:17:10 sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:56 -!- sykopomp [~user@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:17:56 sykopomp [~user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:20:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:23:04 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:23:27 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:25:34 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 22:27:59 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@dslb-084-056-184-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:29:40 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:56 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 22:35:33 Given a 2d array 'a', is there a way to create a vector of the first row of 'a'? 22:36:04 hmm... I guess one could do this with displaced array 22:36:33 p_l|home: I was looking at displaced-to but I wasn't quite sure how it worked based on the documentation 22:37:43 I'll see if I can get an example working using displaced-to. :o) 22:37:49 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:39:19 mek: (let ((columns (array-dimension ze-2d-array 1))) (make-array columns :displaced-to ze-2d-array :displaced-index-offset (* row columns))) 22:39:24 mek||malloc: you might be interested in http://repo.or.cz/w/gsd.git, see the function #'column 22:39:40 LiamH: Thank you kindly -- and adeht as well! 22:39:41 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:40:16 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 22:40:18 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 22:40:37 -!- hun [~user@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:41:11 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has joined #lisp 22:43:20 adeht: you forgot :fill-pointer columns 22:43:49 hmmm... or maybe not 22:43:55 it seems I misread the docs 22:46:29 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:46:44 *p_l|home* notices he didn't take size passed to displaced array 22:47:25 smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:06 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:49:35 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 22:51:00 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 22:52:39 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:52:43 -!- snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53:00 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2FB2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:13 snorble [~snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:54:48 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@143-11-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:57:44 etenil [~user@93-96-0-153.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:57:44 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:57:47 Hi there 22:58:25 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:58:33 hi etenil 22:59:53 I'm reading the "practical lisp" book, and I'm modifying the macro that makes classses to read mp3 tags. It contained (defclass ,name () ... , and now I've modified it as (defclass ,name (,@superclasses) ... , but I'm surprised that the book uses (defclass ,name ,superclasses. 23:00:00 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has left #lisp 23:00:01 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@2001:ba8:1f1:f0ed:216:5eff:fe00:16b] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:00:23 if no superclasses are defined, then will it not throw up an error? or is nil considered a correct parameter? 23:00:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:01:10 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:01:58 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:03:44 etenil: try entering () at your repl. 23:03:50 etenil: In general any atom, list, etc. is a valid parameter, it just depends how it's being used. 23:04:00 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-249-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:04:04 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 23:04:28 mek||malloc: yes but in this case, DEFCLASS expects the second parameter to be a list 23:04:32 etenil: (equal nil '()) would indeed clarify things, as hefner is showing 23:04:35 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 23:04:46 hefner: ah, () is nil... I forgot about this 23:04:55 etenil: That's a different story, (listp nil) 23:05:07 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 23:06:07 The question I have now is, by creating a new array a2 from a row of existing array a1, is the new array considered a vector because it's 1 dimensional? Meaning, could I use (copy-seq a2)? 23:07:38 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 23:07:39 Never mind, seems to work :o) 23:07:56 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 23:08:43 -!- lurker-x [~androirc@c-75-72-99-111.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:08:50 -!- jconrad [~jconrad@host109-153-52-25.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:13 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-63-160.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:10:02 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:10:45 I have another question. The package I work on depends on another package. However I still have to load both packages manually at the REPL even though my package definition states the dependency. Isn't there a way to load a package's dependencies along with a package? 23:11:58 mek||malloc: vector is a one-dimensional array 23:12:15 simpl-vector iirc is a one-dimensional simple-array 23:12:18 *simple-vector 23:13:00 p_l|home: Ah, that was the source of my confusion. I was having trouble understanding the difference between simple-vector and 'vector', same with simple-array. :o) 23:15:02 minion: xach-asdf 23:15:02 xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 23:15:03 simple-array is an array that is not adjustable, displaced nor has a fill-pointer 23:15:11 etenil: check out that link 23:15:17 simple-vector is a vector with the same restrictions 23:15:32 lichtblau: ok, thank you 23:15:37 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:38 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:16:32 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:17:02 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.223.148] has joined #lisp 23:17:46 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:29 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-11-19.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:18:35 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 23:19:08 Are optional parameters nested implicitly like let*? For example, could I do something like ... &optional (length 4) (height length)) ... 23:19:19 lurker-x [~androirc@166.133.145.234] has joined #lisp 23:19:55 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:15 -!- etenil [~user@93-96-0-153.zone4.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:22 Yes. 23:20:45 pjb: Just tested to confirm, as well. Thanks :o) 23:22:05 -!- isak [~isak@78-73-89-9-no169.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [] 23:23:00 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:23:05 isak [~isak@78-73-89-9-no169.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:23:07 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:24:40 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:55 -!- me345 [~me345@adsl-75-15-244-75.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:59 -!- trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:25:03 I must ask, since I've just discovered Lisp handles fractions beautifully: Is Lisp code susceptible to the rounding errors that occur with floating point numbers? 23:26:48 -!- bsod1 [~osa1@88.244.10.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:27:23 -!- lurker-x [~androirc@166.133.145.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:27:36 mpedersen: depends on the format of the numbers - if they are rationals, there's no rounding, if they are floating point, the usual rules apply 23:29:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30:39 -!- zac314159 [~user@c-68-84-149-234.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:30:58 Is there an equivalent to something like Python's decimal.Decimal type? My quick searches on google aren't finding it. 23:33:53 btw, regarding my previous experiment with startup time - I checked it with time, Clojure tops the scale at 1.72s (actually over two seconds user time, but multithreaded execution speeded things a bit), clisp manages at 0.026 s, ECL 0.2s, SBCL 0.26s (everything with warm caches, though) 23:33:59 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:35:13 p_l|home: Rob Warnock says cmucl start up time was just as fast as clisp on his machine. with warm caches. 23:35:23 Is asdf 2.010 awfully broken on sbcl? 23:35:45 TheOm3ga [~jose@84.122.7.221.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:35 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116634 23:36:45 I love watching Allegro start up by waiting until the numbers in task manager have climbed up to the core file size. 23:36:47 Where does this inconsistency come from? 23:37:06 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 23:37:28 -!- Tomheten [~bob@nl118-175-189.student.uu.se] has quit [Quit: Lämnar] 23:37:47 Jokes aside, I find that default core file startup time doesn't matter much to me, it's actual application startup time that's important. 23:38:12 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050067237.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:38:22 rtoym: it's possible, depends on the machine. I'm working from rather resource-contrained machine (C2D T5550 aka "sucks to be you") 23:38:56 I wonder how long an app that makes alisp.dxl go from 4 MB to 135 MB when loaded would take to load in, say, ABCL. 23:39:06 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:23 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:40:17 lichtblau: how many lines of code is that ? 23:40:17 I also don't care about start up time considering that I'm trying to get to the repl and do stuff. 1.72 s vs .026 sec just doesn't matter when I'm sitting there for hours. 23:40:30 lichtblau: libraries + app 23:40:41 jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 23:41:02 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:46 rtoym: true, it's just that I mentioned it before and decided to back my "gut feeling" with some numbers :) 23:41:47 if any of you had tried MSVS 2010 recently then you would not what waiting is about, hehe 23:41:54 not/know 23:42:06 Guthur: ... tried Eclipse? 23:42:09 p_l|home: I don't know what kind of machine he has. All of my machines are Core 2 Duos or slower. 23:42:14 And that doesn't even have a repl 23:42:23 pjb: it might be broken on that sbcl. 1.0.19 is very old! 23:42:27 Guthur: (especially when you need more than base java se config) 23:42:52 pjb: i used 2.010 on sbcl to load every quicklisp project and it worked ok. using a more recent sbcl. 23:43:03 p_l|home, Eclipse is slow, but in many ways it is better than vanilla MSVS 23:43:19 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:43:49 I hear resharper brings a lot of the code generation and refactoring tools eclipse has for Java to MSVS for C#, but I have not tried it yet 23:44:41 but I have been cooking macros all night, I nearly forgot how awesome CL is 23:44:51 having a repl is so sweeeet 23:45:18 Never forget! 23:46:40 QL has really smoothed the workflow as well Xach 23:46:42 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 23:47:15 fe[nl]ix: libraries? I don't know, is 488 kLOC plausible? That's what find | xargs wc -l says. 23:47:19 Glad to hear it! 23:47:30 I want to try a lib... drop to the repl, quickload, and start hacking 23:47:33 Xach: How many LOC does everything in quicklisp have? 23:47:38 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.176.223.148] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 23:48:14 lichtblau: hmm, let me check 23:48:40 -!- jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:49:28 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:49:41 jrockway [~jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 23:49:41 lichtblau: 50kloc of *.lisp files 23:49:42 app, much less. Closer to 100 than 200 kLOC, I think. 23:49:48 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 23:49:59 oh, that can't be right. 23:50:02 *Xach* is doing it wrong 23:50:04 _BeetleJuice_ [~anselmo_p@190.42.125.77] has joined #lisp 23:50:17 -!- isak [~isak@78-73-89-9-no169.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [] 23:50:49 ~2MLOC 23:51:03 that's a lot of hackage 23:51:52 largest individual files seem semi generated, though, like jpn-table.lisp in babel (17k) and gl/funcs.lisp in cl-opengl (14k) 23:51:57 How reassuring to know that my thirdparty/ dir in git has only 24% of all free Lisp libraries. 23:52:05 you could put someone on Mars with that amount of lisp code 23:53:26 symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:32 lichtblau: is the nature of this monster application you guys write public knowledge? 23:55:35 ikki [~ikki@189.247.194.68] has joined #lisp 23:56:16 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:42 -!- _BeetleJuice_ [~anselmo_p@190.42.125.77] has left #lisp 23:57:47 lichtblau: try env LC_ALL=C egrep -R -v '^[[:space:]]*("[^"]*"[[:space:]]*|;.*)?$' | wc -l 23:58:08 lichtblau: that should disregard empty and comment-only lines 23:58:14 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:58:31 smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:41 lichtblau: what's the app about?