00:00:25 I'm kinda being committed on thursday, so I'm in a bad place at the moment. Asking instead of checking myself was a desperate attempt to get an acknowledgement, Iguess. 00:00:35 My bad, #Lisp is not my therapist, haha 00:02:35 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 00:02:40 V-ille [~ville@70.42.89.16] has joined #lisp 00:04:01 osoleve: Have you considered using M-x doctor in emacs? 00:04:06 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-79-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 00:05:17 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-092-131.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:05:27 Walt_ [~Walt@c-4f66702b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 00:06:28 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.79.126] has joined #lisp 00:06:49 nyef: Why do you think I have considered using M-X doctor in emacs? 00:07:50 gigamonkey: Why do you say that Why do you think you have considered using M-x doctor in emacs? 00:08:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:08:04 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:08:19 -!- Walt [~Walt@c-4f66702b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:08:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-145.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:09:27 Please elaborate on that 00:13:48 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: format t "motherfuckers"] 00:14:56 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:15:06 Walt [~Walt@c-4f66702b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 00:15:47 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.131.85] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:15:59 well, when sbcl is starte up by itself, it definitely takes the current working directory as *default-pathname-defaults* 00:16:15 but when it starts in emacs/slime I'm getting ~/Documents 00:17:31 -!- Walt_ [~Walt@c-4f66702b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:18:34 xinming [~hyy@218.73.131.85] has joined #lisp 00:18:41 Fade: it seems to me it depends on what directory is associated with the current buffer in Emacs when you invoke M-x slime. 00:18:43 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 00:18:44 But I could be wrong about that. 00:20:12 ahhhh 00:20:40 when emacs is started forec from alt-f2 in KDE it must start it with the working directory set to ~/Documents 00:20:46 problem solved. 00:26:51 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.233.61] has joined #lisp 00:28:23 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 00:29:49 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.139.202] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:30:20 ramus [~ramus@99.23.135.1] has joined #lisp 00:31:01 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.87.203] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 00:31:09 Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.89.195] has joined #lisp 00:31:27 gonzojive [~red@171.66.87.203] has joined #lisp 00:31:27 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.87.203] has quit [Client Quit] 00:32:59 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:34:16 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 00:34:46 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:36:17 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:36:35 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0225.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 00:38:49 -!- trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:39:16 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:40:35 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-85-252.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:43:52 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.233.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:20 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-11-193.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:44:36 Makoryu [~bloodgog@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:10 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:48:38 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:48:48 mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:19 redline6561 [~redline@adsl-232-119-3.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:25 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:52:56 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 00:56:47 -!- redline6561 [~redline@adsl-232-119-3.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:58:38 "..consequences are undefined if the local macro definitions reference any local variable or function bindings that are visible in that lexical environment" (exempt from clhs macrolet) can anyone give me a hint why? 00:59:54 I think that means you can't use a function defined with say FLET to computer your macro expansion. 01:00:18 Presumably because allowing it would require the compiler to do extra passes or other clever bookkeeping. 01:00:45 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:00:54 And variable bindings just don't make sense since the macro is going to be expanded before the variables are bound. 01:00:57 Or something like that. 01:01:39 udzinari: probably to avoid overspecification that would make the job of interpreters more complicated for no reason. 01:03:52 gigamonkey, pkhuong_ ty 01:04:50 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:52 macros sometimes suck 01:05:12 Racket does it correctly, though I can't help but feel the interface is ugly. 01:06:09 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:07:18 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 01:07:42 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C4C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:07:44 Fare: You wrote "thou shalt not load asdf thy lisp init file". When shalt thy load it? 01:08:56 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu252.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:08:59 Oh god 01:10:39 ... Isn't the more usual form "shalt thou", not "shalt thy"? 01:11:03 Yeah, that's like saying "Your is can't not into English" 01:11:39 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:11:56 I shalt endeavour to give a shit. 01:12:14 Fare: Sorry about not responding about the git scripts earlier. Just discussed them with rpg, and pointed him at the relevant sbcl-devel email. 01:12:20 surstromming 01:13:34 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 01:14:40 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has left #lisp 01:16:24 Xach: thou shall load asdf just before thou first use it. 01:17:23 Good emacs macro: M-< C-s a s d f : C-a C-o ( r e q u i r e SPC : a s d f ) 01:17:49 Fare: And if I use it in my init file? 01:18:01 well, then you know what you're doing. 01:18:02 -!- srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:18:27 Just don't expect things to not turn out ugly when someone tries to compile CCL. 01:19:10 of course, the CCL guys should not be using init files when bootstrapping. 01:19:27 It's not the "ccl guys" I'm worried about; it's the ccl users. 01:19:27 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:19:48 I suppose what I'm protesting against is the old ASDF1-way of loading ASDF1 in your init file just so you can configure it 01:20:28 rme: maybe rebuild-ccl should spawn a new clean CCL image anyway. 01:20:59 powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-23-247.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:06 that'd be nice 01:21:51 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.131.85] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:22:14 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:22:29 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I'm big in Japan] 01:22:44 cipher [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:44 Maybe. In any event, it seems clear that we need to stop compiling asdf.lisp during rebuild-ccl. 01:24:09 xinming [~hyy@218.73.131.85] has joined #lisp 01:25:09 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 01:25:12 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:26:23 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 01:26:59 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:32:57 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:34:22 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.85.245] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 01:41:23 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:42:58 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 01:44:16 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:18 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 01:46:38 felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-225-69.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:50 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:52:54 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:53:32 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:53:39 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 01:55:24 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.79.126] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 01:55:48 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:55:49 Atomsk [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:21 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:00:36 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.6.188] has joined #lisp 02:01:02 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:02:44 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:03:02 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has joined #lisp 02:04:20 chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has joined #lisp 02:04:23 how can I make this a valid statement so that the symbol characters are part of the list and would be printed via format as such? 02:04:25 (defvar *victim* '(O | / | \ | / \ )) 02:04:53 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.6.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:05:07 osoleve: don't use symbols for that. 02:05:30 rTypo [~rTypo@pc54.clicknet.iasi.rdsnet.ro] has joined #lisp 02:05:33 osoleve: try a string, like "O|/|\\|/\\" 02:05:51 I can still reference a string using nth, yeah? 02:05:59 You'd use aref instead. 02:06:05 Or char. 02:06:33 clhs char 02:06:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_char_.htm 02:06:43 Xach: thanks 02:09:56 -!- Atomsk is now known as ace4016 02:10:05 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:14:30 Xach: software installed by quicklisp is not automatically visible to asdf, right? 02:14:48 for example, at the moment, none of them is visible in slime-repl with load-system. 02:17:44 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 02:18:08 leo2007: doesn't quickload load the system for ya? 02:18:36 it does. but it is significantly slower than load-system. 02:19:11 interésting 02:21:10 leo2007: It is visible to asdf, but slime's load-system doesn't use the same mechanism as asdf for finding loadable systems. 02:21:33 leo2007: asdf:load-system will load installed quicklisp software. 02:21:59 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 02:22:32 I was wrong. It isn't slower than load-system. 02:26:16 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:27:56 -!- Walt [~Walt@c-4f66702b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:28:18 Walt [~Walt@c-4f66702b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 02:28:20 How would I go about clearing the REPL's memory in emacs? 02:28:55 you mean unintern symbols from the Lisp image? 02:29:15 yes, i suppose what you said 02:29:28 I defvar'd a string, and now i can't change it 02:30:51 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:36 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 02:33:37 osoleve: use setf 02:33:43 or defparameter 02:34:32 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 02:35:02 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:35:07 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:37 and when you get real desperate, M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp 02:35:37 :P 02:36:38 Xach: not visible in slime-repl is a bit inconvenient. 02:38:01 leo2007: are you questioning His Zachness? 02:38:06 tsk tsk 02:39:05 xan_ [~xan@rrcs-69-193-205-118.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:39:17 anair_84 [~anair_84@wifi-169-232-226-106.host.ucla.edu] has joined #lisp 02:39:36 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:39:52 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has left #lisp 02:39:58 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 02:40:51 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:41:03 ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-99-115-64-171.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:53 okay, last noob-y question for a little while. how do i add to a string? everything i try yells at me for it not being a list. 02:43:03 you mean concatenate two (or more) strings? 02:43:15 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:43:25 yeah, but nconc yelled at me :( 02:44:26 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.135.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:44:33 -!- ramus_ [~ramus@adsl-99-115-64-171.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:44:48 ramus [~ramus@adsl-99-115-64-171.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:08 clhs concatenate 02:45:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm 02:45:45 thanks 02:45:45 or you may want to look into format which is more complex 02:46:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:46:29 Joreji_ [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 02:46:49 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/a-few-format-recipes.html 02:47:05 well, i'm a noob and for about the next month i'm not going to be able to touch a computer, so i'm going to whatever works now and i can tweak it later 02:50:08 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@cpc2-midd16-2-0-cust169.11-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:50:41 is gigamonkey still here? 02:52:26 symbole_ [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:38 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-132.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:57:52 osoleve: i find that usually, if you're concatenating a lot of strings, you're doing it wrong. with-output-to-string is usually the better tool 02:58:03 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-164-95.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:58:10 b4|hraban [~b4@a83-163-41-120.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:59:12 drewc: I'd really rather not use strings at all, but I can't figure out how to get certain symbols recognized as just characters in a list :/ 03:00:22 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-132.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 03:02:22 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:38 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-elmtwsqchecxxyfj] has joined #lisp 03:04:56 osoleve: i think you're confused... strings, symbols, lists and characters are all very different things. 03:04:58 -!- rTypo [~rTypo@pc54.clicknet.iasi.rdsnet.ro] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:05:18 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:05:24 if you want 'just characters', use characters, not strings or symbols 03:05:55 -!- Walt [~Walt@c-4f66702b-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:06:26 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:14:25 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 03:15:30 abeaumont [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 03:17:07 -!- Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:17:32 osoleve: you looking for me? 03:17:37 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 03:19:07 gko [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:56 jleija [~jleija@209.194.186.132] has joined #lisp 03:25:51 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:07 -!- nybbles [~nybbles@vpn15.cs.ubc.ca] has quit [Quit: nybbles] 03:34:17 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:35:29 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-225-69.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:36:35 -!- gko [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:38:26 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:41:21 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 03:43:22 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:30 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:47:07 leo2007: well, it's visible, but slime-asdf doesn't use a compatible method for finding systems, unfortunately. 03:48:04 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48:42 *Xach* needs to supply a slime-quickload function or something 03:48:53 rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:51 ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has joined #lisp 03:53:03 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:08 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:56:25 dys` [~andreas@krlh-5f720dfd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:35 -!- dys [~andreas@krlh-5f72c1b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:59:45 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:01:15 benny [~benny@i577A3422.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:01:38 -!- billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:02:22 Xach: OK, I'll wait for someone to fix slime. I have dumped a new image with all libs included. 04:02:33 All? 04:02:49 I mean all that I have installed. 04:02:56 -!- yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 04:04:12 Is there an alternative to cl-couch (which is a pain to install) to talk to CouchDB? 04:06:31 leo2007: clouchdb is part of quicklisp. i don't know if it is any good. 04:08:08 Xach: I can't find it in ql. 04:08:34 it is called clouchdb. 04:08:36 hmm 04:09:26 leo2007: you can't find it? 04:09:49 I can find clouchdb but not couchdb or cl-couch. 04:09:52 dberg [~user@c-98-234-179-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:41 clouchdb is the only other thing i know about. 04:12:15 drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 04:14:37 Now installed. although it doesn't seem to be the same as the one listed in http://wiki.apache.org/couchdb/Cl-Couch. 04:14:40 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-23-247.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 04:15:14 minion: clouchdb 04:15:15 clouchdb: Clouchdb is an interface to the CouchDb databases. http://www.cliki.net/clouchdb 04:15:26 -!- drl_ [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Client Quit] 04:15:52 leo2007: No, it certainly isn't the same. 04:16:24 kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-kxrdkpzmfuwfbqst] has joined #lisp 04:16:24 -!- kushal [~kdas@nat/redhat/x-kxrdkpzmfuwfbqst] has quit [Changing host] 04:16:24 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:20:31 -!- chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:20:39 -!- xan_ [~xan@rrcs-69-193-205-118.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:22:43 -!- p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:28:15 -!- V-ille [~ville@70.42.89.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:28:43 -!- az [~az@p4FE4ECE5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:29:16 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:35:33 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-217-33-105.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:36:18 az [~az@p4FE4EB8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:19 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-126-22.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:38:56 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 04:42:08 Xach: have you considered including cl-couch 04:42:11 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 04:42:12 ? 04:49:21 huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 04:49:29 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:30 -!- Makoryu [~bloodgog@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:09 MORE CONFUSING NAMES 05:01:11 let's write a lisp database system called OuchDB 05:01:48 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:02:01 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 05:02:40 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 05:08:05 -!- dberg 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Crap!!!, Bat signal is flashing, Gotta go. 05:25:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:25:34 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 05:28:00 -!- rff [~rff@ip72-207-243-174.br.br.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:29:09 yan_ [~asym@srtd.org] has joined #lisp 05:31:17 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:59 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:32:10 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 05:35:26 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:35:33 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:42:25 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-238-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:42:38 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-238-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:42:52 jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet1027.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #lisp 05:42:56 -!- gnooth_ is now known as gnooth 05:45:11 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-41-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:45:41 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-41-222.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:45:56 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-siqlvgljcvfnzhce] has joined #lisp 05:46:12 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:23 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:50:09 -!- nefo_ [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:51:48 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:52:18 Good morning everyone! 05:53:08 superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:11 good afternoon. 05:54:16 _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:54:20 beach, good morning 05:56:37 *ramkrsna* is back (gone 00:31:53) 05:57:14 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@c-71-192-163-98.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:57:53 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 05:58:58 -!- rme [rme@clozure-AC1C217F.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 05:58:58 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-27.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 06:02:14 beach: '05 mt difficulty == yum 06:02:31 I bet! 06:06:57 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.12.151] has quit [Quit: longshot] 06:07:30 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:09:31 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:09:40 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 06:09:46 -!- jleija_ [~jleija@209.194.186.132] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 06:11:36 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:13:01 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp 06:13:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host] 06:13:01 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:17:00 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:17:49 -!- dys` is now known as dys 06:24:41 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:25:27 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 06:27:10 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:28:14 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 06:31:14 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@vipnet1027.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:33:49 -!- ltriant_ [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:34:25 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@167.80-203-136.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:37:32 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 06:38:07 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:39:08 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:40:01 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:43:26 -!- vsync_ [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:43:56 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:46:02 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:46:38 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:52:17 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:57:22 -!- superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 07:00:39 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 07:02:58 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:03:27 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Client Quit] 07:06:29 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:06:58 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:09:24 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-221-165-176.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:09:32 rntz [~rntz@ASPHODEL.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:09:37 daniel__ [~daniel@p508299CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:27 Is there an implementation of common lisp that works on arm? 07:10:54 Clozure Common Lisp 07:11:17 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 07:11:18 <`3b`> also clisp and ecl i think 07:11:28 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082ADE7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:12:36 trying to understand the format string i wrote recently "~[~;~v@{1~:*~:}~:;~@*~(~vR~)~]~%" 07:13:53 flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has joined #lisp 07:13:53 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Changing host] 07:13:53 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:15:30 ok, it's for printing numbers in base-1 too, and it doesn't work on sbcl 07:17:22 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.75.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 07:17:58 i wonder why CL doesn't handle base-1 07:20:14 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 07:21:20 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:21:43 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.20] 07:27:42 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:28:16 -!- symbole_ [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28:26 -!- jdz [~jdz@host202-105-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:29:08 codeblade [~freeburn@123.49.21.137] has joined #lisp 07:31:14 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:31:42 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:33:57 trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has joined #lisp 07:34:52 wielkiszu [~kmiasko@enz17.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 07:35:19 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-91.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:10 -!- Tasuntel1 is now known as Tasunteld 07:39:40 -!- Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 07:39:44 Tasunteld [~jsz@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:57 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:43:13 good morning 07:44:45 good morning mvilleneuve 07:45:55 -!- trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has quit [] 07:47:57 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 07:49:40 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.75.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:49:49 (defun good() (format t "good morning")) 07:51:09 (defun greet () (format t "Good morning.~%")) 07:54:48 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-145.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:04:08 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-elmtwsqchecxxyfj] has left #lisp 08:10:37 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-47.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:11:51 Good morning everyone! 08:13:33 If I have a macro that takes a predicate argument, I have to quote that into the expansion to avoid "Functions cannot be dumped" on compilation (sbcl) 08:14:19 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:14:45 flip214: what's the problem? 08:14:45 Is it better to quote the expansion itself, like «',key-fn», or should I quote the default in the argument list, like «&key (key-fn '#'equal)»? 08:14:48 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Quit: It's getting dark, too dark to see.] 08:15:03 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:05 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-47.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:15:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116457 08:15:18 Giving the parameter to the macro as #'equal works just fine either way 08:15:24 What's the preferred way? 08:15:47 flip214: can't you get away with 'equal? I'm guessing you're going to do a symbolic expansion 08:16:10 -!- dberg [~user@c-98-234-179-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 08:16:34 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.42.16] has joined #lisp 08:16:58 what is "symbolic expansion"? 08:17:20 maybe ... having #'equal does clearly show that it should be a function, though 08:18:13 stassats: I want to say: he'll be using the symbol equal (like `(,key-fn foo bar)) in his macro 08:18:19 in the lambda list, (key-fn '#'equal) is fine 08:19:11 madnificent: more like (sequence-fun foo bar :key ,key-fn) 08:19:20 madnificent: 'equal would be preferable as it has a clearer meaning. 08:20:04 Krystof: if it's used like that, then '#'equal is indeed what he needs 08:20:42 '#'equal looks like it leaks implementation details though 08:20:52 what details? 08:21:47 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:22:53 the fact that you're using it as a function object (that name is probably incorrect) 08:23:58 i don't understand you 08:25:37 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 08:25:44 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:25:52 I guess it's just messy without seeing the code. My initial feeling leans towards using 'equal, not '#'equal in the lambda list 08:26:08 you mean ''equal? 08:26:44 stassats: basically, I don't know what you need without the code... so I don't even care about it having to be equal 'equal ''equal or ''''equal 08:27:23 kind of hard to evaluate an abstraction without knowing what it is supposed to represent 08:27:53 (defmacro foo (a b &key (key ''equal)) `(funcall ,key ,a ,b)) 08:27:54 My original question was whether it's better to quote in the argument list (key-fn '#'equal) or in the expansion (find-if ... :key ',key-fn). When passed an argument like #'equal it works both ways 08:28:35 flip214: you should use either :key-fn '#'equal, or ''equal 08:28:41 but one of these is necessary to fix the keyword-not-given case. 08:28:59 that way you will be able to pass #'equal, 'equal, and (lambda (x y) (equal x y)) 08:29:00 stassats, thank you. that's what I have now. 08:30:08 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 08:30:08 with ',key-fn you could only use :key-fn equal 08:30:10 *madnificent* still thinks it depends on the use-case but we 08:30:41 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 08:31:31 and here we have a use-case 08:32:38 we don't, we have an example of how it could be benificial to use ''equal, we don't know what the macro is being used for. If it is being used for a specific dsl, you may not want to add the the quote in 'equal in the macro 08:33:06 -!- chrnybo [~user@148.122.202.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:33:32 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-73.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:33:55 it would be stupid to save one character and lose the ability to pass function designators 08:34:15 it depends on which abstraction you're trying to build. Nothing more and nothing less 08:34:24 sane abstraction 08:34:35 and the sanity depends on the exact macro 08:34:41 period 08:34:46 The specific macro I'm using that in passes that parameter to a find-if - so the quote in the default is fine, I think 08:34:48 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:35:23 flip214: and why is it a macro? 08:35:59 flip214: stassats's quote is probably right in 99% of all uses :) 08:36:12 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:36:37 because it evaluates to a list of let-bound variables with a body? 08:37:13 is that enough of a reason? 08:37:32 flip214: is there a reason why you can't return multiple values and use m-v-b instead of a macro? 08:38:14 well, it's about having an ALIST and a list of keys, and getting local variables bound to the values in the ALIST 08:38:27 more or less to save typing and increase readability 08:38:51 do you realize that the said alist should be available at the macroexpansion time? 08:39:34 with m-v-b I'd have to type the variable names and the keys - which is duplication if they're the same 08:39:38 stassats: it needn't be... he can expand to code that will use the alist at runtime too... it depends on what he wrote :) 08:39:49 madnificent: can he? 08:39:56 stassats, no, I don't ... that's where I use find-if in the let expansion 08:40:44 your confusion confuses me 08:40:49 stassats: yes `(let ((,var (find ,arg1 ,arg2 :key ,arg3))) ,@body) 08:40:53 I'm sorry about that 08:41:08 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:41:11 madnificent, something like that - in a macro and with a loop 08:41:59 sbcl or clisp which one is better? 08:42:22 well, you should've said that you need to have keys of the said alist available at the macroexpansion time 08:42:26 in case someone's interested: http://paste.lisp.org/+2HUY - but that needs some more things, like defmacro! from LOL 08:42:50 s/you/i/ 08:42:56 stassats, sorry - yes, the keys are available - they're normally equal to the variable names 08:42:57 the first you, oh well 08:44:26 *stassats* refuses to read code which uses macros from LOL 08:44:51 stassats, why? didn't like LOL? 08:45:01 stassats: that's only auto-gensyms in there. harmless :) 08:45:06 -!- huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:45:30 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 08:45:31 flip214: i haven't read it, i only see horrendous macros here and there 08:46:10 I read it, and found it very good - nice ideas, and a few good abstractions. Nice macros, too ;-) 08:46:19 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442446.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:46:31 you just have to ignore the text in between code samples. the book is quite nice then 08:46:41 there are nice only if you don't show them to anyone 08:48:41 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.233.61] has joined #lisp 08:49:06 stassats, here's one of mine ... http://paste.lisp.org/+2HUZ ... any opinions? 08:49:44 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440432.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:50:16 i am sorry, but i like (remove-if #'evenp (list 1 2 3 4 5)) better 08:50:19 flip214: i did a similar one a few years ago, with _1, _2, ... 08:50:42 stassats, and what if it's a bit more complicated? 08:50:55 Hun: the ^ is perl6 compatible ;-) 08:50:59 i generally dislike any such things, in my view writing (lambda (x y) (equal y x)) isn't much longer and is much clearer 08:51:04 then write a defun. complex lambdas are hard to read 08:51:41 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:51:53 flip214: the rest of the code isn't. so why bother? when writing lisp, write lisp. perl => perl, c => c. writing perl in C, or C in Lisp, it doesn't work very well 08:52:06 or (loop for x in (list 1 2 3 4 5) unless (evenp x) collect x) 08:53:30 freeburn_ [~freeburn@123.49.20.229] has joined #lisp 08:53:42 For such things I like it: (mapcar (-> (or (evenp ^b) (eql ^a ^b))) (list 1 2 3 4 5) (list 5 4 3 2 1)) 08:53:49 -!- leadnose_ [leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has left #lisp 08:53:53 that loop makes me wonder about Constanza's class. He used loop instead of remove-if and find too... I'm still not too certain as to why he did it 08:54:15 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:17 Something that could be written in one line this way, but would need two or three with a (lambda ...) because of the amount of text 08:54:28 complex things should be put elsewhere, of course 08:54:44 flip214: is lines of code a scarce resource? 08:54:47 also, if you need the env, flet/labels is usually nicer 08:54:56 flip214: try your macro on (remove-if (-> (equal ^a ||)) (list 1 2 3 4 5)) 08:55:22 and it's easier to recurse. try some time to write labels as a macro. it's quite enlightening :) 08:55:33 what does -> do? 08:55:44 madnificent: flip214's lambda 08:55:45 madnificent: confuse the reader 08:55:53 i mean the human reader 08:55:54 i'll call it flipda 08:56:13 yes - it limits how much is visible on the screen, and clutters the mind - http://www.paulgraham.com/power.html 08:56:15 and ... what does it do besides confusing me? 08:56:22 -!- codeblade [~freeburn@123.49.21.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:56:26 in clojure, it forthifies code 08:56:27 -!- freeburn_ is now known as codeblade 08:56:43 flip214: look at arc if you want to see where his essay got him 08:56:47 I don't care that it's shorter or that it makes you happy. What the hell does it actually do? Is it a lambda-derivative? 08:56:47 (let [x 3] 08:56:47 (x (+ 1) (* 3))) => 12 08:57:09 madnificent: no. it's just plain lambda, with auto-generated arguments. 08:57:13 o_O [ and ] 08:57:27 -!- Vicfred [~Vicfred@189.143.89.195] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:57:35 oh, forgot the -> before x 08:57:38 Hun: ah! then I can live with -> 08:57:47 jdz: thanks, I know about arc 08:57:58 flip214: so, did you try your macro on my example? 08:58:05 stassats, you're right about || - but that's not something I write ;-) 08:58:11 "Works for me" 08:58:46 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:59:14 are these two macro definition looks ok http://paste.lisp.org/display/116461 ? 08:59:34 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:59:38 I am trying to receive a parameter searchterm and then pass it on 09:00:15 kushal: why do you write them as macros? looks like that would work quite well with functions. am i missing something? 09:00:34 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 09:00:48 with-html-output-to-string is a macro 09:00:50 Hun, I never wrote them , just trying to modify one example 09:02:34 Hun, they are working well if I don't try to introduce "searchterm" , I think I need an example of doing GET/POST for hunchentoot, I got the code in http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1022462/how-to-connect-a-web-app-to-hunchentoot 09:04:51 kushal: that's not how macros work 09:04:58 or rather, not when macros work 09:05:07 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.75.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 09:05:08 stassats, ok 09:05:31 trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has joined #lisp 09:06:09 you need to have searchterm available at themacroexpansion time, or expand to the code which will use searchterm at the run-time 09:07:06 stassats, can you show me an example ? 09:09:24 (defmacro foo (x) (print x) t) and (defmacro bar (x) `(print ,x)) 09:09:30 and then compare (let ((x 10)) (foo x)) and (let ((x 10)) (bar x)) 09:11:20 stassats, the second one is happening at run time, is that correct ? 09:11:57 something like that, yes 09:13:10 ok 09:13:11 jgballar1 [~jgballard@host109-156-5-61.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:46 you need to understand that macro is a function to which you pass your code and which returns another code 09:14:21 and that function operates at one instance of time, and the expanded code is evaluated at another (if at all) 09:15:03 ok 09:15:25 what do you want to do with that searchterm parameter? 09:16:24 stassats, I want to use it in the @body of the standard-page macro 09:16:53 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.75.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:17:17 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.51.87] has joined #lisp 09:18:39 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 09:19:25 -!- Koven is now known as Kovensky 09:22:34 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl21-79-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 09:25:07 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[~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:48:10 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:52:12 *`3b`* wonders if drakma is supposed to send bad content-length headers for multibyte strings 09:52:50 `3b`: yes 09:53:14 *`3b`* wonders why it doesn't default to no header rather than a wrong one 09:54:58 freeburn_ [~freeburn@123.49.23.189] has joined #lisp 09:56:25 -!- codeblade [~freeburn@123.49.20.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:57:34 _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:59:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-73.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 10:03:25 -!- H4ns````` [~user@pD4B9EBF2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:04:36 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.51.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:05:33 -!- freeburn_ [~freeburn@123.49.23.189] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:06:06 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.51.87] has joined #lisp 10:07:12 <`3b`> and apparently :content-length t isn't enough to make it calculate it either :( 10:08:11 *`3b`* gives up and just converts the encoding with babel 10:09:38 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756cd1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:26 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 10:14:10 -!- jgballar1 [~jgballard@host109-156-5-61.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: bye] 10:17:31 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu022.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:21:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:23:07 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:25:04 jgballar1 [~jgballard@host109-156-5-61.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 10:29:09 -!- pmd` is now known as pmd 10:30:19 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.75.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 10:37:12 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 10:38:38 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[~petercoul@152.105.51.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:56:39 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 10:57:26 petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.51.87] has joined #lisp 10:57:28 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@85.22.93.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:00:12 deadside [~dead@unaffiliated/deadside] has joined #lisp 11:01:10 after 5 years I join this channel again, you guys humiliated me, you banned the whole brazil because of my english and now to show to this channel that a brazilian can speak english as well. I CAME FOR MY REVENGE!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOOK AT MY ENGLISH SKILLZ. bye :P 11:01:12 -!- deadside [~dead@unaffiliated/deadside] has left #lisp 11:01:26 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.155.230] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 11:03:55 Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@85.22.93.138] has joined #lisp 11:04:05 hahaha 11:05:08 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.233.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06:12 enupten [~neptune@117.254.157.183] has joined #lisp 11:07:17 hehhhh :)) 11:07:53 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-238-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:08:02 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-238-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:10:32 :) 11:17:44 <_danb_> you guys banned the whole brazil?? jeepers 11:20:40 nalbyuites [~ashijit@122.176.80.62] has joined #lisp 11:21:18 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:21:22 minion: tell nalbyuites about pcl 11:21:23 nalbyuites: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 11:25:34 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:26:38 marijnjh [~user@p5DDB12C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:54 does common lisp code have a dedicated mime type? text/common-lisp shows up only once on google... 11:28:41 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qllnrbbdjjkxayxr] has joined #lisp 11:35:00 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Quit] 11:38:28 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.75.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:38:45 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:40:53 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-132.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:41:52 marijnjh: are your js updates pushed? should i use akapav's js or yours? 11:42:10 marijnjh: and is there an interesting demo of what it can do? and why aren't you ogedei? 11:42:22 _danb_: hey! long time, etc 11:42:34 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:47 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-145-168.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:42:49 nikodemus: i was all excited thinking .44 had the ~ update 11:43:05 Xach: i still need to sort out the windows side 11:43:19 it's probably going to do in today or tomorrow 11:43:33 <_danb_> nikodemus: I don't think I'm the _danb_ you're looking for; I might have to change my nick if I keep doing CL :) 11:43:36 _danb_ not dan_b, unless he's emigrated to austraila and I hadn't heard 11:43:56 oh 11:44:02 _danb_: danb has expired in the lisp namespace, you're free to keep it. 11:44:34 -!- _danb_ is now known as _danb_is_not_dan 11:45:08 Xach: my repo is usually ahead of Alan's 11:45:17 -!- _danb_is_not_dan is now known as _danb_aint_dan_b 11:45:34 Xach: unfortunately, presentation and docs haven't been something we've focused on so far 11:46:23 Xach: also, Ogedei was a ghost of times long past, and no one knows me by that name except a handful of people here anyway 11:46:53 Xach: but, in short, you load the system, and do (js:js-repl), then type away 11:46:59 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-171.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:49:57 -!- _danb_aint_dan_b is now known as danb 11:50:33 -!- nalbyuites [~ashijit@122.176.80.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:50:59 nalbyuites [~ashijit@59.176.127.126] has joined #lisp 11:51:27 -!- danb is now known as _danb_ 11:54:12 stassats [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-113-252.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 11:54:16 -!- stassats [~stassats@pppoe.178-66-113-252.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Changing host] 11:54:17 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:56:06 -!- nalbyuites [~ashijit@59.176.127.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:57:24 -!- gor[e] [U2FsdGVkX1@79.165.187.105] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 11:58:27 -!- petercoulton [~petercoul@152.105.51.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:59:07 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.157.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:00:13 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:01:03 can anyone point me to some application written using cl-who and hunchentoot ? I want to read some example codes 12:02:14 there aren't many publicly available web applications 12:02:47 stassats, ok 12:03:40 *stassats* goes to look at his web page code, using hunchentoot 0.15.x 12:05:11 stassats, what I am trying: receive a parameter using GET/POST method and show a page dynamically based on that 12:06:05 i have such code, but it uses an outdated version of hunchentoot 12:06:11 ok 12:07:02 kushal: what exactly is the problem? you can't find a way to access GET/POST parameters? 12:07:14 kushal: http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#start see the second cond example 12:07:20 s/cond/code/ 12:08:03 jdz, if I use http://paste.lisp.org/display/116463 and say like (tintin:defpage mytest ("My test") 12:08:03 (:p "Hi india") 12:08:03 (:p "Hello World!")) it works , but not being able to find out how to use (parameter) function and get values in the body 12:08:04 can you provide get and post with the same name at the same time in HTTP? 12:08:50 kushal: i'd suggest you first make what you want without macros, and only then invent the macros 12:09:00 jdz, ok 12:09:15 stassats: why not? 12:09:28 jdz: how do i know? 12:09:34 stassats: ok, you can :) 12:09:39 jdz, even in that case, can I use 12:09:41 (let ((sterm "sterm")) 12:09:41 (if sterm (:p "Hi ~a" sterm) 12:09:41 (:p "Hello World!"))) 12:09:50 kushal, did you look at the easy-handlers? 12:09:55 stassats: you can even provide several parameters of the same name inside a GET (or POST) query 12:09:57 sorry for pasting here :(\ 12:10:12 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-238.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:10:53 (:p "Hi " (str sterm) "") 12:11:13 who's sterm, anyway? 12:11:24 it's "sterm", apparently 12:11:38 lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.75.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has joined #lisp 12:12:16 pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.233.61] has joined #lisp 12:12:32 if I put that if block in with-html-output-to-string as a body, it is throwing a 500 12:13:02 that means something went wrong 12:13:05 don't you need to wrap (:p ...) inside (htm ...) ? 12:13:29 pmd, means ? 12:13:32 look in /tmp/huncehntoot.log for errors 12:13:41 stassats, ah, thanks 12:13:58 or configure hunchentoot so that it ends up in the debugger 12:14:04 kushal: (htm (:p ...)) 12:14:11 kushal: (htm (:p "Hi " (str sterm))) instead of just (:p "Hi " (str sterm)) 12:14:21 ok trying 12:14:25 http://weitz.de/hunchentoot/#*catch-errors-p* 12:14:25 kushal: if the code is inside with-html-output already 12:15:08 ok , let me try 12:15:30 kushal: and if you want to see something in the browser, don't forget to write your string (the one you get from with-html-output-to-string) to the response output stream 12:15:50 jdz, ok 12:16:55 you have a response output stream? 12:17:14 i thought you just return a string from the handler 12:17:20 makks [~makks@p5DE8DD38.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:24 hiho 12:18:35 stassats: maybe that, yes. but what i meant is to make sure the string is not lost somewhere (which it would be, if with-html-output-to-string was somewhere inside the code) 12:18:51 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 12:18:56 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:19:15 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116464 12:19:28 This function throws a warning on compile time that I dont understand 12:19:33 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:40 also it does not work as expected 12:19:45 any ideas? 12:19:46 i don't understand the warning either 12:19:58 if only i knew what it is 12:20:08 what? 12:20:14 the warning 12:20:25 one second 12:20:47 but i see the problem, your second do clause is malformed 12:21:10 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116464#2 12:21:30 it should be (test result) 12:22:03 oh 12:22:08 disregard that 12:22:11 yup 12:22:31 (it has a progn there) 12:22:40 longshot [~longshot@180.184.7.218] has joined #lisp 12:22:42 annotated definition of node and the warning 12:23:29 still, why is the NIL in the result-form? 12:23:33 but anyway, i think it's not what you meant 12:23:53 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:23:57 jdz: I thought that was the return value 12:24:14 makks: yes, but you don't put any code after return value 12:24:41 stassats, jdz pmd so, when I was just passing (:p ..) instead of (htm (:p ..)) , it was trying to evaluate :p as a function and crashing there 12:24:45 makks: i mean, the code should go after (end-test-form result-form*) 12:25:22 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel 12:25:28 (defun find-node (nodes id test) (find id nodes :test test :key #'node-name)) 12:25:31 what code? 12:26:21 thx stassats 12:26:34 I hope I understood correctly 12:26:50 still I dont really understand what I did wrong 12:26:56 if you still want to use do: (do ((rest nodes (cdr rest)) (node (car nodes) (car rest))) ((or (null node) (funcall test id (node-name node))) node)) 12:27:03 using sb-introspect to write a tags file didn't work (that easily) - there's only a byte position in the debug info, not the line 12:27:09 jdz, but when I just passed (:p "hello world") , why it worked correctly 12:27:10 ? 12:27:21 and what the warning is supposed to tell me 12:27:29 stassats: I tried that, didnt work either 12:27:57 well I used not instead of null 12:28:04 but otherwise the same 12:28:10 are you sure? 12:28:48 nope, disregard that 12:29:05 kushal: because it was a direct subform of with-html-output 12:29:12 I probably inserted a paren in the wrongplace 12:29:15 enupten [~neptune@117.254.152.108] has joined #lisp 12:29:49 kushal: read the documentation of cl-who 12:29:54 jdz, ok 12:30:10 (and node (funcall test ...)) would be better 12:30:17 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: work work work (lunch?)] 12:30:34 but who cares, FIND is better anyway 12:31:16 yup 12:31:23 agree 12:32:07 (defun find-node (id nodes &key (test #'equal)) (find id nodes :test test :key #'node-name)) even better 12:33:29 makks: and the warning is supposed to tell you that you're trying to apply (node-name node) where node is NIL 12:33:50 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:33:56 hmm okay 12:33:57 since you test (not node), (node-name node) will be only run in that case 12:34:15 and compiler derives that node can be only nil in that case 12:35:51 _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.106.62] has joined #lisp 12:39:06 makks: you can make (defstruct (node (:constructor make-node (name &optional children))) name children) instead of making a function NEW-NODE 12:40:05 would you advise that? 12:40:20 yes 12:40:42 you will have one function instead of two, which is good 12:40:56 but I will only export one 12:41:56 and I like to make clear that new- could be fancy 12:42:19 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:43:05 i don't use structures that much, but i expect the name to be make-struct 12:43:08 for consistency 12:44:17 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:44:26 even if you want to make a fancy constructor: (defstruct (node (:constructor %make-node))) (defun make-node (foo) (%make-node (do-incredibly-fancy-stuff foo))) 12:44:30 that's a common idiom 12:45:09 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qllnrbbdjjkxayxr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:45:14 but then you are locking away the power of default make-struct 12:45:35 the users of your API shouldn't care about it 12:45:42 but I do ;) 12:45:45 or your API is bad 12:45:48 nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has joined #lisp 12:45:48 -!- nefo [~nefo@2402:f000:5:8f01::143:81] has quit [Changing host] 12:45:48 nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has joined #lisp 12:46:46 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:55 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.252] has joined #lisp 12:51:05 kitbit [~liuguangz@117.79.246.3] has joined #lisp 12:51:30 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:54 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.106.62] has left #lisp 12:55:18 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-eaaluugybrvjvznf] has joined #lisp 12:57:06 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:57:23 how do you not write to a stream? like (let ((*standard-output* nil)) (format t "hi")) 12:57:34 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:59:28 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:00:35 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 13:00:48 what are you trying to accomplish with this code? 13:00:58 *stassats* doesn't see it 13:01:09 i was also confused: if you want to not do something, then just don't do it... 13:01:27 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:01:37 <_3b> (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream)... ? 13:02:21 lharc: (format nil "hi") ? 13:02:27 my first attempt was (let ((*standard-output* nil)) (load "something")) .. the load prints stuff 13:02:58 lharc: it's not LOAD that prints stuff 13:03:00 -!- lnostdal-laptop [~lnostdal@109.179.75.16.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:03:10 -!- nefo [~nefo@unaffiliated/nefo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03:59 does it get printed on *standard-output*? or on some of the other outputs? 13:04:20 aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has joined #lisp 13:04:21 -!- kitbit [~liuguangz@117.79.246.3] has left #lisp 13:04:34 ehu: my guess is *s-o* if not I cant walk through the others. 13:04:42 I can walk through.. 13:05:10 hi ... just new ... in #lisp 13:05:33 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:05:48 jdz: it isn't? 13:05:57 clhs *load-print* 13:05:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ld_prs.htm 13:05:59 V-ille [~ville@70.42.89.16] has joined #lisp 13:06:38 aurelien: welcome 13:06:58 stassats thanks 13:07:08 stassats: consider me educated 13:07:36 let's say, it's not only LOAD which prints 13:07:54 and not only compile-file 13:07:58 clhs *compile-verbose* 13:07:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_cmp_pr.htm 13:08:09 konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 13:08:15 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 13:08:29 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 13:09:09 dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 13:09:26 but if the code has no warnings, doing (let (*load-verbose* *load-print* *compile-verbose* *compile-print*) (asdf:load-system foo :verbose nil)) should be silent 13:10:07 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-siqlvgljcvfnzhce] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:10:11 silencing everything may be not a good idea, since you may miss some important warnings 13:12:07 hi all. is lisp's symbols like 'foobar influenced from prolog? 13:12:40 foobar is influenced by the military 13:12:53 isn't that fubar? 13:13:02 no no, I'm asking the symbols starting with ' char 13:13:14 jdz: influence, not a copy-cat 13:13:20 sid3k: symbols don't start with QUOTE 13:13:26 stassats: right 13:13:44 sid3k: ' isn't specific to symbols 13:13:49 sid3k: 'foo is equivalent to (quote foo) 13:13:53 it's a general mechanism to prevent evaluation 13:14:08 arright. thanks 13:14:24 powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-23-247.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:50 and i believe prolog wasn't conceived at the time yet 13:15:15 a scala example contains a string starting with ' char just like lisp 13:15:37 and tells that its prologish. I thought that lisp may influenced from prolog 13:15:49 sid3k: in maths they do it also, only they put the quote character at the end 13:15:56 sid3k: for many centuries now 13:16:33 in math? you mean, we can represent strings in a lambda calculus function, for example? 13:16:45 (I'm asking as a coder with poor math) 13:17:10 no, in maths they do stuff like this: x' = foo(x) 13:17:44 arright 13:18:53 no, in maths it's f'(x) = df(x)/dx 13:18:58 What does x' = foo(x) mean in math? That looks like the first derivative of x. Or maybe the variable x prime. 13:19:09 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:25 rtoym: i intended the latter one 13:19:40 quote character used as part of the symbol name 13:19:54 How is that like 'x in Lisp? 13:20:20 it was meant to be nothing like 'x in lisp 13:20:32 as in -- completely orthogonal 13:21:14 -!- mbohun [~user@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:54 *syntard* likes lisp because ... no math! 13:23:40 Uh, ok. 13:23:49 i like lisp, because it's easy to do math in it 13:24:14 stassats: Say, how's the RS code coming? 13:24:24 it's easy to do anything in it, for that matter 13:24:43 rtoym: i haven't touched it since and already forgot about it 13:24:47 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-eaaluugybrvjvznf] has left #lisp 13:24:58 Heh, ok. Just curious. 13:25:33 it was meant as a part of QR code generation, but i got frustrated at the luck of good free documents and abandoned it 13:25:50 still, learned a couple of things, which is good 13:27:07 I was thinking I might revive my old RS code. And I actually own some books that describe RS (and other) codes pretty well. 13:28:24 [You are in the LISP package]. Yes! 13:29:01 segv_handler: Real protection violation: 0. No! 13:29:03 go south. 13:31:56 -!- housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:35:32 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-145-168.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:07 chp [de1e1313@gateway/web/freenode/ip.222.30.19.19] has joined #lisp 13:38:20 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:39:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:43:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:43:42 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.233.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44:03 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-94-193.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:15 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-40-247.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:45:09 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:45:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:45:14 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:49:08 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 13:51:32 taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD95572.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:52:06 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 13:53:00 rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-221-165-176.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:10 -!- isak [~isak@78-73-89-9-no169.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [] 13:55:38 -!- V-ille [~ville@70.42.89.16] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:56:00 pr: do you have that /usr/pkg/lib/clisp/full/lisp.run file? 13:56:26 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:56:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:58:53 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-8-91.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:59:38 -!- chp [de1e1313@gateway/web/freenode/ip.222.30.19.19] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:02:36 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:14 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:07:51 -!- ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:07:51 Atomsk [~ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:34 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:17:13 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.42.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:17:23 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:17:29 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 14:19:04 urandom__ [~user@p548A6934.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:47 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:54 ehu [~ehuels@109.35.109.137] has joined #lisp 14:22:53 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-64-145.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:23:25 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:23:51 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 14:25:03 Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:25:14 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-27.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:20 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:25:20 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:05 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:25 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756cd1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:55 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:31:06 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 14:31:19 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:46 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:59 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 14:36:23 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:36:40 ehu` [~ehuels@109.34.0.247] has joined #lisp 14:36:45 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.35.109.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:38:27 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:38:35 V-ille [~ville@ville-hp.dhcp.fnal.gov] has joined #lisp 14:39:14 carlocci [~nes@93.37.210.146] has joined #lisp 14:39:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:42:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:43:31 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:44:00 -!- powerje [~powerj@adsl-75-49-23-247.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 14:44:17 -!- younder [~jthing@124.202.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:45:57 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:48:25 gigamonk` [~user@adsl-99-17-207-80.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:16 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:26 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-76-254-18-239.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:50:47 -!- Intensity [KYmbPu8ogS@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:51:03 helpme [~Email@110.35.38.118] has joined #lisp 14:51:10 can somebody help me with drracket 14:51:27 -!- _pw_ [~user@123.112.77.61] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:51:43 helpme: try #scheme instead 14:52:06 pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has joined #lisp 14:52:13 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Quit: class] 14:53:03 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:53:48 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54:35 Intensity [sNRHvYTz1x@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 14:55:37 HG` [~HG@xdsleg103.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:55:43 sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:14 -!- wielkiszu [~kmiasko@enz17.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:59:49 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-238.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:00:28 Okay, I'm really tired of the REPL yelling at me and I can't figure this out on my own. 15:00:45 How can I put special symbols in a list? 15:00:54 Such as \ | and / 15:01:24 osoleve: are you sure you want them to be symbols? 15:01:31 osoleve: why not just characters? 15:01:36 no, not symbols, characters 15:01:38 sorry 15:01:43 i meant symbolic characters 15:01:46 #\\ 15:01:47 \\, \|, \/ 15:02:23 okay, so I could do (push \\ array) and it would just add a \? 15:02:37 you can't PUSH into an array 15:02:44 sorry, not array, list 15:02:45 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 15:03:07 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:12 yes, you can (push '\\ list) 15:03:14 _pw_ [~user@123.112.77.61] has joined #lisp 15:03:28 and i'd be using append because i'm adding to the end 15:03:43 i'm sorry, is there a single quote there? small letters :3 15:03:44 what is it that you're trying to do? 15:03:44 smells like pure awesome 15:03:46 sounds fishy 15:03:51 superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:02 stassats: I'm making hangman! 15:04:09 tired of the repl yelling at you? Come here and we can yell at you instead 15:04:14 USE AN APPROPRIATE DATA STRUCTURE 15:04:14 err 15:04:43 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.152.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:05:48 sorry, a better explanation would be, I'm making a list containing the body parts for the gallow 15:06:11 osoleve: again, you can (and should) use characters or strings instead of symbols 15:06:11 that way, i can initialize it with spaces, and just replace the spaces with the characters instead of writing a bunch of conditionals 15:06:25 haha 15:06:27 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:06:32 jdz: I want to use a list of characters 15:06:36 osoleve: you want a hash. 15:06:44 no, he doesn't want a hash in this case 15:06:51 unless the person being hanged has a really full head of hair 15:06:57 # 15:07:01 /|\ 15:07:06 / \ 15:07:29 The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:47 osoleve: you could just use a string and use the sequence functions 15:08:26 dlowe: that's what I started doing, but concatenating seemed like it would be a nightmare, and lists would be easier to work with 15:08:29 (count #\a "acacia") => 3 15:08:37 ascii is dull, draw it with Vecto 15:08:41 minion: vecto? 15:08:42 vecto: Vecto is a graphics library that uses cl-vectors and ZPNG to draw vector graphics to PNG files. http://www.cliki.net/vecto 15:08:53 stassats: I'm a noob. One step at a time. 15:08:55 I'm impressed at the number of people missing the point here 15:09:15 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:09:21 Krystof: big hair? 15:09:33 dlowe: Perfect Hair. Forever. 15:10:09 that means baldness 15:10:09 osoleve: lisp has a special character representation for characters that make up a string. 15:10:18 Krystof: of course he doesn't want a hash. 15:10:21 stassats: I AM bald, actually ;) 15:10:25 see: (loop for i across "\\, \|, \/" do (print i)) 15:10:53 why quote | and /? 15:11:00 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:23 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:11:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:11:30 Joreji_ [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:11:46 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-009-048.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:47 (append *list* '\) doesn't work :( 15:12:57 no wonder 15:12:59 osoleve: read the docs for append 15:13:00 clhs append 15:13:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm 15:13:07 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:13:24 osoleve: you'll want to use push 15:13:33 osoleve: and you are missing a parenthesis 15:13:43 muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:47 dlowe: even if I want what I'm adding to go to the end? 15:14:10 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@109.34.0.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:14:34 osoleve: why must it be at the end? 15:15:06 dlowe: Nevermind. I could do (push '(\) (last *list*)), right? 15:15:19 osoleve: no. you should answer my question, though 15:15:36 dlowe: Let me show you the function usingthe list, it'll make ore sense 15:15:55 osoleve: I'm really trying to get you to put it into words 15:16:09 pushing elements onto a list and reversing the result is a fairly common lisp idiom. 15:16:23 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:16:28 it's '\\, not '\) and not '(\) 15:17:54 dlowe: I have a function that draws the gallows for hangman 15:18:16 osoleve: ok, how does the list ordering affect that function? 15:18:37 dlowe: And instead of writing a bunch of conditionals and extra format statements to check when a body part should be there, i'm simply making a list containing spaces and replacing them with the characters as needed 15:18:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116469 15:19:04 osoleve: the only thing you need to draw the body, though, is the number of incorrect guesses 15:19:07 dlowe: The (char...)calls are left over from trying strings 15:20:26 ohhh, I see. wow, that seems a lot harder than using a loop. 15:21:08 -!- kral is now known as aleph0 15:21:13 -!- aleph0 is now known as kral 15:21:29 dlowe: I make do with what knowledge I have, and then Iask people how it could be done in a more lisp-yfashion. It's how I learn. 15:21:46 dlowe: I'm really a total lisp novice 15:23:39 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:23:41 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:24:05 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 15:24:18 housel [~user@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 15:24:28 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:24:43 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:26:23 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:27:55 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:28:02 osoleve: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116469#1 15:28:18 drawing a gallows pole is left as an exercise for the reader 15:28:31 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:28:44 isak [~isak@78-73-89-9-no169.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:50 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:29 stassats: Your input is highly appreciated, but that looks to be way over my head for the time being 15:29:52 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 15:30:05 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:30:18 How many years does it take until your Lisp code stops to suck? 15:30:24 stassats: However, for the next month I plan to read/annotate PCL and LoL like textbooks, so maybe when I finally come back to a computer I can tackle that. 15:30:34 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 15:30:42 osoleve: http://paste.lisp.org/+2HV9/2 15:30:54 -!- helpme [~Email@110.35.38.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:31:09 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsleg103.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:31:42 osoleve: you're encouraged to try and take apart these functions to see how they work without worrying about if they're over your head 15:32:20 tcr: 1.5 15:32:39 dlowe: Thank you. I just simply don't have the time right now, literally. 15:33:22 dlowe: And it's not that I don't want to, it's just that tomorrow I am being committed for dual-diagnosis for at least a month, and I am not allowed to have a computer. 15:33:37 write code on paper 15:33:44 print them out :D 15:34:16 -!- superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 15:34:41 stassats: As I said, i'm going to tear apart PCL and LoL 15:35:00 LoL being Land of Lisp, i hope? 15:35:02 I'm too addicted to learning Lisp to go a month without some form of it 15:35:05 yep 15:35:16 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:17 -!- tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35:17 -!- isak [~isak@78-73-89-9-no169.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [] 15:35:34 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 15:35:48 my copy hasn't arrived yet, so I'm going to focus on PCL for the first week and have my parents bring LoL the first visitation day after it arrives. 15:36:30 Whatever you have, get well soon. 15:36:40 thanks 15:37:52 it's amazing, my only reservation about being committed (aside from loss of freedom) is that I won't have my computer, specifically that I won't be able to code Lisp 15:38:05 I can't believe a language reignited my passion for programming so strongly 15:38:26 Checkout the original Lambda Papers by Sussman and Steele, nice to read; also checkout their SICP video lectures  maybe you're allowed to watch them on an ipod 15:38:35 print out sbcl sources, so you can evaluate in your head 15:38:49 -!- kral [~kral@93.185.125.210] has quit [Quit: Sto andando via] 15:38:56 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:39:13 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:39:18 stassats: I can't, my brain is running on a SPARC 15:39:29 tsk, O ye of little faith 15:39:29 sbcl runs on sparc 15:39:43 stassats: Damn, so much for being witty 15:39:55 osoleve: You might want to look into PAIP if you get really bitten. 15:40:02 PAIP? 15:40:28 minion: tell osoleve about paip 15:40:30 osoleve: have a look at paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 15:40:31 *stassats* can't imagine reading all those books without trying it out 15:40:50 stassats: Me neither. But i'm going to. 15:41:06 tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 15:41:07 wait what. not trying it out? 15:41:26 right 15:41:26 here's one that I can imagine reading while not having a computer to hand: "To Mock a Mockingbird" by Raymond Smullyan 15:42:03 you can work through that book with pencil and paper, and by the end you will have a truly deep understanding of computation 15:43:21 PAIP looks disturbingly interesting. You can be 100% positive that if I find a copy today at a B&N or Borders, it'll be coming with me. 15:43:54 oh man 15:43:59 cmucl is broke 15:44:06 Bronsa [~bronsa@host187-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:44:36 osoleve: It's not a good AI book, but a good lisp book :) 15:45:04 schmrkc: Oh.. I was hoping itwas a good AI book 15:45:26 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD95572.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4-dev] 15:45:37 osoleve: Nah. Norvig did make a good AI book, but this is not the one. 15:45:39 p_l|home [~pl@pp84.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:45:45 minion: AIMA? 15:45:45 AIMA: AIMA is Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach, http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu 15:46:15 i just created a new tar.bz2 files and unpacked loaded cmucl with -core local-core-in-lib-subfolder -noinit 15:46:15 -nositeinit loaded clx with (reqire 'clx) and loaded the clx demos with (load 15:46:15 "/usr/share/common-lisp/source/clx-0.7.4/demo/clx-demos") and (demos:demo) selected Qix and waited, what happes is that 15:46:15 the demo is running in loops for ever 15:46:19 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:37 tvaalen_ [~r@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 15:46:57 Krystof: that looks like an interesting book, I'll add it to my list.. thanks 15:47:24 heh the graphics is getting printed anew everytime, without me doing anything once loading the Qix demo 15:48:02 -!- tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:48:07 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:48:38 -!- dabr [~dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:48:42 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 15:49:08 and when loading cmucl and requiring asdf first then clx, i get the new clx-0.7.4 which is external to cmucl, but 15:49:09 then it does not load with ext:open-clx-display undefined function error 15:49:51 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:19 homie: Why do you use cmucl? 15:50:45 Xach: just for testing most of the time i use actually sbcl not cmucl 15:51:02 why test on cmucl? (: 15:51:23 -!- tvaalen_ [~r@terminal.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:51:24 to get a better understanding to the innards and differences between both 15:51:26 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:38 homie: Ok. I don't think you need to share cmucl issues with #lisp. 15:51:44 ok 15:52:29 tvaalen [~r@terminal.se] has joined #lisp 15:53:15 -!- Atomsk is now known as ace4016 15:54:29 Nowhere within 50 miles of my house (that I can find) has a copy of either PAIP or To Mock a Mockingbird :( 15:55:11 dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:36 I guess amazon has it. 15:55:51 on the kindle even! 15:56:00 Can't have a kindle :( 15:56:16 well you can have "kindle for the PC" or for your android phone 15:56:21 homie: if you load a non-cmucl clx, why are you trying to call a cmucl function? 15:56:44 schmrkc: he/she can't have electronic devices where he/she is going 15:57:00 schmrkc: I think you might not have been here for the part where I said I was being admitted to a mental facility tomorrow morning, no harm no foul 15:57:32 pkhuong_: ? it's defined to be a cmucl function in the clx-0.7.4 package what are you talking about ? 15:57:33 osoleve: oh ok. Nope. I wasn't around then. 15:57:56 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 15:58:06 osoleve: Then there is not time for amazon to ship. Too bad. I think PAIP would be a nice book to have around a place like that. 15:59:34 Does anyone know why FAD:LIST-DIRECTORY (and by that also FAD:WALK-DIRECTORY) returns truenames? 15:59:49 Probably because CL:DIRECTORY does. 15:59:58 It's hard to go back. 15:59:59 It does? 16:00:03 Yes. 16:00:05 How silly 16:00:09 clhs directory 16:00:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm 16:00:11 THat's how it is. 16:00:16 Note the effect on symlinks! 16:00:20 schmrkc: Yeah, oh well. I'm going to hit up a book store and find a random book to bring. I'm already bringing PCL, LoL and Mastering Algorithms in C 16:00:54 pjb: I'm disastrously bitten by exactly that 16:00:59 isak [~isak@78-73-89-9-no169.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:36 oh, and maybe Battle Royale, but that's unrelated :3 16:01:37 osoleve: try "one flew over the cuckoo's nest" 16:01:44 we need a minion: curse function 16:02:02 stassats: Read it. It's my FAVORITE analog of Brave New World 16:02:03 minion: curse 16:02:05 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``curse''. 16:02:48 tcr: clisp provides an API over ftw. You might prefer that. 16:02:52 fe[nl]ix: Does your IOlib pathname stuff behave less stupid I guess? 16:02:55 stassats: But not to be a buzzkill, yes, I appreciate the dry humor in that recommendation. 16:03:05 tcr: that's correct 16:03:06 Xach: are you planning to do something with CL-JS, or just seeing if you want to include it in Quicklisp? 16:03:14 fe[nl]ix: well of course :-) 16:03:19 rukowen [~thehien@222.253.88.83] has joined #lisp 16:03:20 That's why ccl has a :follow-symlinks keyword arg to cl:directory. 16:03:22 marijnjh: it's already included. i think it sounds like a neat idea and i want to use it for cool things. 16:03:36 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:03:41 Xach: great! it needs more users to find bugs 16:03:53 tcr: it's difficult no to do better than the CL pathname & file functions 16:04:01 marijnjh: I think even a tiny bit of documentation and tutorial material would get people interested in trying it themselves. 16:04:29 Xach: yeah, that's next on my list. I'm currently integrating it in the first actual project that uses it, so the API is, to say the least, in flux 16:04:30 rme: So does sbcl apparantly, thanks for the hint 16:04:52 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 16:04:53 osoleve: Hope you don't stay too long. And make sure you bring a boatload of cigarettes. 16:05:33 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 16:05:58 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:02 osoleve: how's Lisping? 16:06:37 schmrkc: Thanks, and I plan on it. 16:06:58 gigamonkey: It's going well. I'm gonna miss it, haha, but I'll have your book with me :) 16:08:31 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-179-192.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:53 osoleve: how long til you get back to Lisping? 16:09:18 gigamonkey: If all goes well, a month until I return home 16:09:36 gigamonkey: I plan to be a model patient, so hopefully they'll discharge me after not too long 16:09:37 Well, you could pretty well digest PCL in a month. 16:09:40 Good evening everyone! 16:09:46 marijnjh: just curious, have you tried compiling(?) the javascript in nodejs or CommonJS etc? 16:09:48 beach: good morning! 16:09:50 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.57.22] has joined #lisp 16:10:02 gigamonkey: I plan to tear it apart like a textbook. 16:10:10 osoleve: unless lisp withdrawal will drive you mad? 16:10:30 stassats: I think they'll have methodone. 16:10:38 booo 16:10:48 tsuru: what do you mean? The node.js standard lib? 16:10:53 good thing it _is_ a textbook 16:10:54 does the methodone belong to the genericon? 16:10:58 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-94-193.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:11:06 adeht: No, the necronomicon. 16:12:02 osoleve: i guess it's better than Java 16:12:24 stassats: Tautologies annoy me ;) 16:12:43 marijnjh: I was trying to think of big javascript codebase that doesn't require a DOM and those two came to mind... I know node.js uses the V8 engine but I was curious if you might have tried using CL-JS as the platform... even if only to spot bugs etc 16:13:11 osoleve: but it's a truism! 16:13:34 stassats: What I meant was, you could say that about anything and it'd still be true :) 16:13:44 tsuru: i've ran UglifyJS, which is a node.js library, but had to move some stuff around since we don't currently support CommonJS-style modules 16:15:26 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu022.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:16:19 I wrote to edi asking about adding such a &key parameter to cl-fad; he and me won't have the time, so I'm probably going to post to that new pro@ list asking if someone else might want to do the job. 16:16:26 Wow, emacs is too powerful. I can't believe I tried coding Lisp without it for so long. 16:16:39 I just went to save, and accidentally deleted three functions o.o 16:16:59 osoleve: that's great. shorter code is obviously better than longer code. 16:17:10 kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:17:27 Am I right to suppose that this pro@c-l.net mailing list is supposed to be c.l.l. without the boasting? 16:17:28 is it? 16:17:57 of course. i called it obvious, so it's proven. :) 16:18:38 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-126-22.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:18:59 _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.106.62] has joined #lisp 16:19:27 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:20:04 -!- osoleve is now known as osoleve-cigbreak 16:21:06 syntard_ [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 16:22:27 fe[nl]ix: So what's difficult? 16:22:53 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:23:03 _wxf_ [~user@125.39.108.4] has joined #lisp 16:23:08 tcr: I shouldn't use double negatives 16:23:14 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has joined #lisp 16:23:17 beach: thy i 16:23:33 tcr: I meant that it's very easy to do better than what's now in the CL standard 16:23:39 beach: I've just sent you an email 16:23:47 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:24:01 -!- _wxf_ [~user@125.39.108.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:12 rukowen: OK, I'll read it soon. 16:24:19 tcr: just never resolve symlinks by default, ignore the presence(or absence) of a final slash in pathnames, and a few other minor details 16:25:06 oh ok I misparsed your remark then :-) 16:25:07 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:26:31 dan` [~user@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:26:51 -!- luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 16:27:49 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 16:28:12 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.106.62] has left #lisp 16:29:04 taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD95572.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:41 gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has joined #lisp 16:30:37 HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:31:30 Is there a way with SBCL to trap attempts to modify constant data? 16:32:10 sentry [~sentry@10.sub-75-220-159.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:20 -!- makks [~makks@p5DE8DD38.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:32:29 makks [~makks@p5DE8DD38.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:38 -!- makks [~makks@p5DE8DD38.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 16:33:59 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 16:34:50 -!- sentry [~sentry@10.sub-75-220-159.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:48 at runtime? sorry, no 16:35:56 :( 16:36:09 taylanub0 [~taylanub@p4FD976FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:54 the closest you can get right now is :read-only defstruct slots 16:37:07 -!- Krystof [~csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:37:08 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD95572.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:37:09 -!- taylanub0 is now known as taylanub 16:38:31 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@85.22.93.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:34 getting constant objects on ro pages is of course in principle possible, but it would take some hacking 16:38:36 nikodemus: couldn't constant data be put in read-only pages ? 16:39:14 dberg [~user@12.153.137.113] has joined #lisp 16:39:18 It would be a nice feature! 16:39:40 (but so would many others I suppose) 16:39:45 yep 16:40:10 funding would help prioritize things like that :) 16:40:18 could even put literal objects in there :) 16:40:58 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:41:00 nikodemus: What would be a reasonable price? 16:41:51 put features on ebay 16:41:58 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:42:28 *syntard_* is blinded by his brilliance 16:42:31 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:43:02 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:39 really, put your money where mouth is. Then nobody would suggest features unless paid a buck 16:44:02 -!- marijnjh [~user@p5DDB12C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:44:18 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has left #lisp 16:44:22 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 16:44:40 beach: its tricky enough that i'd spend a couple of hours on a spike before a real estimate, but for a limited but interesting set of objects -- say conses and arrays -- i'd say something in the region of a man-week 16:45:10 (* 60 40) => 2400, but everything's negotiable 16:45:34 nikodemus: I'll think about it. Perhaps the cost could be shared. 16:46:11 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:47:07 beach: let me know -- i'll be happy to do the spike for a better estimate 16:47:31 Sure. 16:48:10 I implemented something called watched objects in ccl. You say (watch thing) and then if anyone tries to write to thing, you get a break loop. I seem to remember that it took a couple weeks. 16:48:27 there are also some questions re. extent of the feature: should (constant-cons t t) be immutable immediately, or would it be enough for it to be immutable when the current would-be RO page is filled? 16:48:34 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 16:49:06 Joreji_ [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:49:33 rme: that's a nice way to express immutability! 16:50:45 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:51:16 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:54 rme: I'm intrigued. presumably (watch thing) would cause the thing to be immediately relocated, which sounds expensive. so there must be some trick! 16:53:15 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp121-45-97-26.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:55 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:32 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-179-192.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:55:57 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 16:56:23 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.149.41] has joined #lisp 16:57:29 cmm: No trick. It's just kind of expensive. The idea was that for debugging, it wouldn't matter too much. 16:57:37 http://ccl.clozure.com/ccl-documentation.html#watched-objects 17:00:40 What does it do if you pass an immediate to watch? :-) 17:01:21 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:26 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 17:01:42 fisxoj [~fisxoj@149.43.186.123] has joined #lisp 17:02:57 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host187-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:04:23 > Error: value 42 is not of the expected type (OR CONS (SATISFIES UVECTORP)). 17:04:45 Xach: unless you pass a symbol 17:04:46 pocket_ [~pocket_@p4252-ipbf3210hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:05:14 sbcl's build script seems to ignore dynamic-space-size -option, at least for make-host-1.sh 17:05:55 syntard_: Unless I pass a symbol to what? 17:06:39 (defvar *myreadonly* 5) (watch '*myreadonly*) 17:07:11 syntard_: What is that example meant to illustrate? 17:07:42 Bronsa [~bronsa@host187-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:07:42 Xach: I misunderstood the meaning of "immediate" i guess 17:08:11 *syntard_* hangs head in shame 17:09:00 syntard_: in this context, an immediate is something that is not a heap-allocated object, such as a fixnum or a character. 17:09:56 rme: how'd you come up with name uvectorp ? 17:11:10 uvector... unboxed vector? 17:11:24 (i.e. one with unboxed values?) 17:11:31 ultraviolet ector? 17:12:28 Is #lisp now no longer a place for cmucl? 17:12:32 Chapter 16 in the ccl manual explains it. I don't want to bore #lisp with ccl implementation details. 17:13:17 rtoym: I find homie's "troubleshooting" pretty annoying. If you want to help him out, feel free. 17:13:25 rtoym: It seems like a one-way conversation 90% of the time. 17:13:47 Yes, there is that. I sometimes don't even understand what he's saying. 17:14:29 homie: I suspect the portable-clx may not work with cmucl. (require :clx) should get the version included with cmucl. 17:14:37 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 17:15:35 bah, a page per watched object. sounds like electric-fence! 17:16:02 oh sorry for that 17:16:03 then again, probably doesn't matter much 17:16:10 syntard: immediate basically means something which fits in a register and is not a pointer 17:16:11 i won't bubble out of context here again 17:16:27 tcr: cool 17:16:51 (which is exactly what rme said before, just with a different spin) 17:16:56 rtoym: that's what Xach would like i suppose 17:17:16 -!- benny [~benny@i577A3422.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:17:44 rtoym: yep the built-in clx works better with cmucl, but then again it is flawed too, at least for the demo stuff i tried 17:18:05 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@149.43.186.123] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:18:12 What demo stuff? I haven't used clx in quite some time, but I did run the demos back then. 17:18:38 Back when Fred imported portable clx into cmucl, with cmucl fixes. 17:18:55 cmm: And that page-per-watched object decision is going to cost even more if we ever get ccl running on systems with pages larger than 4K (like 64K pages on big ppc systems). 17:19:15 rtoym: just those petal,qix etc stuff, the problem is not that they don't work, they are caught in a loop somehow 17:19:50 -!- aurelien [~Libre@fsf/member/aurelien] has quit [Quit: be free!] 17:19:51 rtoym: the drawing is going on and on from the beginning after the example finishes 17:19:54 benny [~benny@i577A09D4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:00 homie: What does caught in a loop mean? I'll try to run the demo. 17:20:02 Oh. 17:20:05 rtoym: eventually there is a gc in between i observe 17:20:30 jep 17:22:57 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:23:02 *stassats* learned about MusCL 17:23:48 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756cd1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:31 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:31 Hmm. I don't even see the qix demo running anywhere.... 17:25:42 rtoym: those demos reside in /usr/share/common-lisp/clx-0.7.4/demo if you have it 17:25:49 Qua 17:25:55 guaqua: w 17:25:56 -!- rukowen [~thehien@222.253.88.83] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:25:57 gah 17:26:03 can you be more specific? 17:26:46 rme: I gather this was just for expediency, it seems fixable in theory (keep a memory region for watched objects, make sure to note the right page offset on SIGSEGV, etc) 17:26:58 homie: cmucl cvs has the demos. The petal demo appears to work. The qix demo now runs, once I increased the duration. Qix looks wrong, though. 17:27:26 cmm: exactly right 17:27:31 rtoym: ok i'll run the demos from the cvs version too, to see if there's any difference 17:27:34 rme: sure beats trying to use CPU hw breakpoints (of which there is an extremely limited number) 17:27:36 nikodemus: it just seems to pass the default SBCL_XC_HOST through 17:28:01 guaqua: what was you command-line? 17:28:06 your, even 17:28:17 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:28:40 oh, i see your confusion 17:28:57 sh make.sh --prefix=$HOME/local/sbcl --dynamic-space-size=512 17:29:03 --dynamic-space-size to make.sh doens't specify the dynamic-space size used to build sbcl 17:29:22 it specifies the default dynamic-space size for the newly built sbcl 17:29:26 okay 17:30:09 a note that specifies that might be of use 17:30:14 rtoym: nope the same problem 17:30:36 --dynamic-space-size= Specify default dynamic-space size. 17:30:41 --xc-host= Specify the Common Lisp compilation host. 17:30:44 homie: What demo are you running? Did you compile clx-demos? 17:30:47 yes? 17:30:56 hm. i see. 17:31:22 anyways, put the --dynamic-space-size in the --xc-host section and it'll do what you want 17:31:27 i did that 17:32:02 and still got into trouble. probably the --dynamic-space-size wasn't specified... 17:32:42 and when it tried to boot up the new executable, it crashed 17:33:14 the whole process was just a bit confusing due to the same thing succeeding without any parameters on 1.0.30 17:33:34 rtoym: it's not necessary to compile them, just run and observe, and i even compiled the clx-demos file, the 17:33:34 problem remains 17:33:58 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host187-178-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:34:12 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:56 guaqua: if you didn't need any parameters before, you should not need them now. that's the theory anyways 17:35:49 homie: Which demo? I've run all the demos on my OSX box and they all run. Only qix looks somewhat broken. What system are you running? Are you using your own custom core or something else? 17:36:09 guaqua: also note that (confusingly, possibly even brokenly, but still) sbcl itself wants --dynamic-space-size not --dynamic-space-size= 17:36:34 nikodemus: has some default size changed from those times? in the system i'm memory-constrained by ulimit 17:36:43 yes, i noticed that oddity :) 17:37:05 guaqua: for the target, quite possibly. can't remember for sure. not for the host, though 17:37:35 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:38:00 guaqua: if it has, you may need both :/ 17:38:44 can you start the host sbcl without --dynamic-space-size? 17:39:42 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 17:40:08 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:40:19 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:40:27 nikodemus: yep 17:41:15 rtoym: no, i used the builtin core too, the same result 17:42:38 then just --dynamic-space-size= to make.sh should be enough, as the build never specifies a non-default size when running either the host or the target 17:44:09 rtoym: i'm on debian linux, kernel 2.6.26-2-686, with the cmucl binaries i installed today, but even the one 17:44:09 snapshot i got does not work correctly on the demos 17:44:41 rtoym: so it's not my failure or so to built the binaries correctly 17:46:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 17:51:10 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:52:08 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:52:19 ok --> home 17:52:20 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:52:26 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 17:52:44 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:52:47 sellout- [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:56 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:57 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 17:53:58 katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:53:58 -!- katesmith [~katesmith@75-138-209-215.dhcp.snfr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:53:58 katesmith [~katesmith@unaffiliated/costume] has joined #lisp 17:58:12 -!- osoleve-cigbreak is now known as osoleve 17:58:54 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:04 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:06:04 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-238-133.netcologne.de] has left #lisp 18:06:11 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-238-133.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:09:55 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:12 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:11:04 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 18:15:07 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 18:15:15 -!- isak [~isak@78-73-89-9-no169.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [] 18:15:28 isak [isak@192.94.73.4] has joined #lisp 18:16:33 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:44 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.149.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:16:49 is there a way to launch python code from with lisp with out having to use system commands 18:16:55 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:17:59 isn't there a cl-python package or so ? 18:19:47 http://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/ is it 18:20:05 is that compatible with numpy and pygame? 18:20:14 PuffTheMagic: I don't know. 18:20:19 it's not compatible with C extensions 18:20:22 ntd [~user@daneel.cc.gt.atl.ga.us] has joined #lisp 18:20:38 srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 18:21:48 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:22:03 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 18:22:34 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:24:26 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 18:27:04 homie` [~user@xdsl-195-14-196-25.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:14 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-195-14-196-25.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:28:13 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:29:13 kobra [~user@p548A6934.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:18 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-238-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:29:32 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-238-133.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:30:26 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:34 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-195-14-196-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:30:42 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-195-14-196-25.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:40 -!- kobra [~user@p548A6934.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:44 rme: If you pass :follow-symlinks nil to directory, and your cwd is /foo, and you do (directory "/foo/**" :follow-symlinks nil) or whaever the right incantation is  what will it return, absolute or relative pathnames? 18:33:19 Sorry, cwd is /foo, and you pass "bar/" which is a subdirectory of /foo 18:38:22 Is there a way to make a pathname absolute without involving truename (and its symlink resolving bits) 18:38:33 DIRECTORY always returns absolute pathnames, IIRC. 18:38:53 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:40:14 homie [~user@xdsl-195-14-196-25.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:02 wow, nikodemus made ~ in namestrings expand to :directory (:absolute :home ...) 18:42:22 not yet. 18:42:27 soon! 18:42:47 great news, although I find myself glancing out the window to look for flying pigs 18:43:41 -!- fragione [~fragione@bzq-79-179-245-24.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:43:52 Any help of the absolutification bit? 18:43:57 s/of/on/ 18:44:08 antifuchs: remember to check for flying pigs again when DNF is released 18:44:34 Kovensky: they'll be common by that time 18:44:39 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD976FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4-dev] 18:44:57 remind me, what was that again? 18:44:59 hell, give me some time, money, and make sure PETA doesn't hear about it, and I'll give you a flying pig in a month 18:45:08 antifuchs: Duke Nukem Forever 18:45:12 ah, that 18:45:14 p_l|home: broussard already twitted a drawing of flying pigs 18:45:22 taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD976FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:29 NO TREBUCHETS. 18:45:30 George Broussard said that DNF would only be released "when pigs fly" 18:45:42 who said anything about trebuchets? 18:45:44 wbooze [~user@xdsl-195-14-196-25.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:44 and when Gearbox said they'd be finishing it for release, he twitted the flying pigs drawing 18:46:07 well, no fair. giving the project to a team that can actually ship. 18:46:28 the month is so that I can do proper preparations 18:47:13 heh 18:47:32 sloanr [~user@64.244.48.114] has joined #lisp 18:48:02 Oh the answer is PROBE-FILE it seems 18:48:09 -!- taylanub [~taylanub@p4FD976FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:49:03 antifuchs: so it would be a *proper* flying pig. with engine et al. 18:49:04 which does not really make sense because its clhs entry says it returns it truename but it doesn't actually resolve symlinks in sbcl 18:49:24 tcr: there's a ccl extension ccl:full-pathname, but I don't think a ccl extension helps you. 18:49:39 tcr: probe-file should return the result of truename on that filename. it has in the past, in sbcl 18:49:54 p_l|home: ok, I can live with that. 18:51:00 drewc: have you put up a smug source tree anywhere yet? 18:51:15 antifuchs: so it would be a *proper* flying pig. with engine et al. <-- porco rosso? 18:51:55 Kovensky: no. This pig won't be useful for anything more than bacon after the flight, I guess 18:52:00 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 18:52:35 the real question is how to fill out IFR flight and remote-control permission 18:53:01 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 18:53:10 (for bonus points, make the pig fly on barn doors) 18:53:16 lol 18:54:33 Kovensky: I'm a son of aviation engineer. You can learn weird stuff from parents, you know :D 18:54:54 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:54:55 lold @ the barn doors thing 18:55:04 don't they teach about off-topic anymore? 18:55:09 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:55:12 aww 18:55:22 don't spoil the party :( 18:56:20 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-100-178-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:56:59 There's #lispcafe for the party. This is the Grim Conclave Of Minds 18:58:28 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:01:06 dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:10 homie: Well, I just tried, using 2010-11. (demos:do-all-demos) seem to work. 19:01:16 btw, I managed to figure a way to work on CL stuff as part of official coursework. Good thing some teachers are interested in low-level :) 19:01:37 rtoym: (SuSE 11.2, displaying to OSX.) 19:01:55 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:02:13 rtoym: ? you are on osx ? or linux ? 19:02:34 running on SuSE, displaying to OSX's X11.app, right? 19:02:36 p_l|home: I wish I could do taht :( 19:02:40 rtoym: I ran cmucl on Linux, but my display is currently on OSX. 19:02:55 PuffTheMagic: clpython won't run numpy or pygame 19:02:56 p_l|home: I have homework to do which is implementing a bin/oct/dec/hex/ASCII converter using RMI and Swing <_< 19:03:04 I'm pretty sure it will work displaying to my Linux box, which is over there. 19:03:20 rtoym: after my adventures with Genera, I wouldn't be so sur 19:03:22 *sure 19:03:24 jdz [~jdz@host44-15-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:03:56 p_l|home: What? That running cmucl on my linux box displaying to its own display won't work? 19:03:58 PuffTheMagic: you can always do fork() then exec(), or spawn() in some cases 19:04:12 *rtoym* goes to try the linux display.... 19:04:20 rtoym: nah, but the X11 Server might have different ideas on some extensions 19:06:02 sb-ext:run-program can run any external program, is there any other such function which can run and read the output of an external application ? 19:06:30 sb-ext:run-program isn't sufficient? 19:06:41 Modius [~Modius@cpe-70-123-158-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:07:25 kushal: in sb-posix, fork, dup, close, pipe, wait and exec 19:07:38 keep to sb-ext:run-program, you'll be saner 19:08:20 p_l|home, ok, let me try 19:08:52 don't try fork, dup, close, pipe, wait and exec 19:09:08 :) 19:09:22 stassats, but how to read the output from sb-ext:run-program ? 19:09:46 provide it a string stream 19:10:30 (with-output-to-string (stream) (sb-ext:run-program "/bin/ls" () :wait t :output stream)) 19:11:03 p_l|home: You were right. :-) It doesn't work on my linux box. Because open-clx-display says no protocol was specified. 19:11:27 ok 19:12:24 rtoym: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 19:12:28 sorry, couldn't help it 19:13:12 p_l|home: I blame clx for not knowing how to do it, or maybe the default firewall not having the ports open. 19:14:36 it does not happen with sbcl 19:14:49 so it is not a matter of open ports or so 19:15:05 rtoym: I'm talking about my system, not your problem. 19:15:18 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:25 And sbcl has a different clx than cmucl, so working on sbcl just means it works with sbcl. 19:15:39 Er, from, not than. I think. 19:16:46 wow. nothing like compiling SBCL to bring parallels (and windows 7) to its knees. 19:17:28 (and that's compiling SBCL on the macos side, not parallels) 19:18:13 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.252] has joined #lisp 19:18:15 i use it as a benchmark 19:18:18 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:37 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066237.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:21:03 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:54 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 19:24:45 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 19:26:34 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:35 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 19:29:41 Soulman1 [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:31:43 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:32:10 -!- SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:30 -!- Guest13484 is now known as fpletz 19:33:45 -!- fpletz [~fpletz@2001:7f0:3003:42:ccc:acab:ed:23] has quit [Changing host] 19:33:45 fpletz [~fpletz@moinmoin/student/franz] has joined #lisp 19:34:20 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:23 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:46 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 19:38:03 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:06 antifuchs: apologies, i was an hour behind 19:42:52 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@236-9-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 19:45:38 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:46:24 josemanuel [~josemanue@240.252.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:46:38 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:57 Number out of range for Roman numerals: 4,000 do any implementations go higher? 19:50:30 how? 19:50:30 syntard_: how would you write that? 19:51:53 pkhuong: (let ((n 1)) (loop (format t "~&~@R" n) (incf n))) 19:52:43 how would you write roman numerals greater than 4000? 19:53:01 just do M's all the way 19:53:12 MMMM 19:53:14 billions of M's 19:53:38 what for? 19:53:43 MMMCMXCIX is more than enough for anything! 19:53:44 fine, silly question 19:53:54 that's quite wrong... a horizontal line over the top of the numeral indicates that the numeral should be multiplied by 1000, non? 19:54:04 drewc: right! 19:54:17 how would you write it? 19:54:30 _ 19:54:31 IV 19:54:40 stassats: I assume that's somewhere in unicode ;) 19:54:47 boo 19:55:10 drewc: what if you need two of these? 19:55:23 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 19:56:18 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:56:21 stassats: me? i'd use arabic numerals. 19:56:25 :P 19:56:25 #\u+2181 = roman numeral five thousand. 19:56:40 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 19:56:44 (concatenate 'string "I"(string #\u0305) "V") => "IV" 19:56:45 Xach: I don't even remember what you were behind (-: 19:57:01 minion: where's Xach? 19:57:02 behind you! 19:57:08 oops 19:57:21 #\u+2188 is one hundred thousand. 19:57:52 antifuchs: ~ in sbcl pathnames 19:58:20 ooh, yeah you were (: 19:58:25 ok, my cl will count to many thousands of thousands 19:58:27 Hi all, wondering what ALisp was? 19:58:31 has anyone heard of it? 19:58:34 http://user.it.uu.se/~torer/publ/alisp2.pdf 19:58:34 (concatenate 'string "I" (string #\u0305) (string #\u0305) (string #\u0305) (string #\u0305) "V") => "IV" 19:58:58 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Client Quit] 19:59:11 edlinde: dod you read that pdf you posted? 19:59:13 did* 19:59:14 I been asked to use it for some additions that I have to make to a DB written in Common Lisp, but I don't understand why we need to use a subset of Common Lisp... weird 19:59:18 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 19:59:29 aDuck [~aduck@bl13-149-95.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:59:53 i mean, i've never heard of Alisp before now, but since i can read, i know that "ALisp is an interpreter for a subset of CommonLisp built on top of the storage manager of the Amos II database system." 19:59:53 19:59:54 drewc: hi, yeah I did... not completely but I didn't see the point of doing such a thing 19:59:55 Given the size of the Roman Empire, it makes sense to be able to count much higher than 4000. 20:00:37 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:37 rtoym: maybe that's the reason it fell 20:00:46 drewc: yeah I get that too, but are there problems with using Common Lisp such as - it has bad garbage collection or something? 20:00:46 edlinde: a little further googling gets me "Amos II is an extensible mediator database system allowing different kinds of distributed data sources to be queried." 20:01:04 stassats: Because they could only count to 4000? 20:01:12 yeah 20:01:51 edlinde: i'm not sure what you mean 'bad garbage collection', nor how it at all related to your question. I suspect you are not quite sure what you mean either ;) 20:02:19 hmm forget I asked 20:02:23 cya 20:02:27 CL doesn't have garbage collection at all 20:02:35 stassats: exactly :) 20:02:36 what? 20:03:33 stassats: no garbage in cl? 20:03:43 none whatsoever 20:04:05 but what about them lexical bindings? 20:04:05 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Client Quit] 20:04:27 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 20:04:48 -!- HET2 [~diman@w220.engin.cf.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:04:54 syntard_: you speak nonsense! algol had lexical bindings, and they have nothing to do with GC. 20:05:01 syntard_: They're saying it is up to the implementation to have GC if they like. 20:05:15 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:05:23 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 20:05:30 how can free memory without garbage? 20:05:38 why would you want to do that? 20:05:52 syntard_: don't you know that Turing Machines have infinite memory? 20:06:01 syntard_: There is nothing in the CL specs that say you have to have GC. That's pretty much it. 20:06:01 pjb: of course 20:06:19 syntard_: don't you use the function system:free ? 20:06:30 pjb: never 20:06:43 you can just restart your implementation when you run out of memory 20:06:47 (let ((pair (cons a d))) (unwind-protect (progn ...) (system:free pair))) 20:07:30 pjb: I don't want to swear 20:07:32 *drewc* imagines an implementation that uses "cloud" storage for core :) 20:07:43 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 20:08:10 i like ether better 20:08:16 who needs a GC when you have s3! 20:08:20 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:08:39 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Client Quit] 20:09:27 *syntard_* promises to use system:free from now on 20:09:28 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 20:09:28 I think NIL never grew a GC. 20:10:24 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 20:11:04 naturally, it's a constant! 20:12:41 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:51 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 20:16:14 francogrex [~user@109.130.151.218] has joined #lisp 20:18:24 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 20:21:01 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:23:30 hadyy [~hadyy@94.29.130.172] has joined #lisp 20:24:29 Hi every body 20:25:14 -!- longshot [~longshot@180.184.7.218] has quit [Quit: longshot] 20:27:03 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@240.252.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 20:27:58 DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:23 hadyy: hello 20:31:25 -!- hadyy [~hadyy@94.29.130.172] has left #lisp 20:33:53 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:34:54 Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:35:06 Semi-gratuitous backquote galore! http://paste.lisp.org/display/116476 ;P 20:35:48 Interestingly, writing this wasn't as hard as it should have been. 20:36:35 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:36:36 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:36:50 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:37:30 Hexstream: why (list 'progn and not `(progn ? 20:38:02 -!- DanLentz [~danlentz@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 20:38:18 Well, I "immediately" came up with the current solution without problems. But when I tried to do what you're suggesting, I sort of blew my stack and didn't bother. 20:38:44 Besides, that PROGN is only there because of legacy considerations that should go away soon. 20:39:24 i haven't seen three-quote code before 20:39:33 it's like three-star programmers in C 20:39:40 I was about to say that ;) 20:39:50 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-146.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 20:40:03 Hi, anyone knows if ecl ffi is exactly like uffi? (so that one can learn by reading the uffi manual) ? 20:40:25 I'll note that I still can't read the classic definition of once-only. Forever elusive! 20:40:28 francogrex: no 20:40:29 francogrex: that's unlikely, why not read the ecl manual? 20:40:46 francogrex: UFFI has interface to ECL's FFI, but that's all 20:41:18 "ECL supplies a high level interface which is compatible with UFFI. Code designed for this library should run mostly unchanged with ECL." 20:41:20 p_l|home: I didn't see anything extensive about the "ffi" in the manual i have. 20:41:21 from that manual 20:41:26 -!- pocket_ [~pocket_@p4252-ipbf3210hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:41 Hexstream: that's a perfect example of "why to avoid macros" imo 20:41:43 stassats: ah, true 20:41:45 why not just use CFFI? 20:42:03 mind you, CFFI works equally well, though c-lines beat both in some cases 20:42:20 Hexstream: if you had a decent functional interface to your validators, there would be no need for macros on top of macros on top of macros 20:42:22 also, didn't CFFI include some stuff that UFFI didn't? 20:42:38 there a lot about uffi in the manual. ok they're compatibly the same then. stassats: I use cffi, just want to learn a bit about the local ffi 20:42:39 drewc: Avoiding macros? Haha... Don't get me wrong, I try to use functions whenever possible. But, macro usage pervades my programming style, and for good reasons IMHO. 20:42:41 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-11-168.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:50 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:42:59 I do have a decent functional interface for my validators. 20:43:11 Macros are just for syntactic sugar. Awesome syntactic sugar. 20:43:23 p_l|home: how does clines beat cffi? 20:43:29 Hexstream: they certainly inspire awe ;) 20:44:11 When I'm done cleaning up and documenting linkval, you'll see that my macro usage is not quaint. 20:44:38 francogrex: c-lines is the inline C/C++ support 20:44:39 "syntactic sugar causes cancer of the semicolon" 20:45:16 *syntard_* wants to program lisp forth style 20:45:49 In fact, the next library I'm about to release is a "library-generating library" called type-maker. It lets you generate a type system independent from Common Lisp's with one simple macro call. I'm generating a whole interface and implementation from a simple specification. 20:45:56 *drewc* has been a three-backquote macro programmer, and now sees most macros as a code smell. 20:46:43 smugness to 11 20:46:54 indeed 20:46:55 Lisp: For proglang hipsters 20:47:23 p_l|home: do you mean something like: http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/ch18s04.html (3.4.3. Low level example) ? 20:47:43 drewc: Macros are nice. 20:48:04 I just want a macro to macro all macros, then I can retire 20:48:08 sykopomp: indeed, so is heroin 20:48:13 or http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/re14.html ? 20:48:46 drewc: all things in moderation. 20:50:33 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.55.252] has joined #lisp 20:50:53 felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:10 sykopomp: indeed. Moderate use of macros makes code more readable, easier to understand, etc. Over use, OTOH, is obfuscation. I find new lispers tend towards the latter camp because of the novelty of macros. Experienced lispers, especially those who have worked on big projects with large teams, tend to view macros with a more critical eye. 20:51:28 drewc: especially you :) 20:51:36 drewc: Agreed. 20:52:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:52:04 dlowe: the pain of the the xml parsing macros in QRES is still with me to this day.... i have nightmares 20:52:07 specially when macros are abbreviated 20:52:20 978 symbols in CL, defmacro just one of them 20:52:29 The thing is, newbies use macros where there are better ways to do the same thing without macros. I use macros where there's no better way to do the same thing. 20:52:50 drewc: well, I can't argue with that 20:52:50 -!- jdz [~jdz@host44-15-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:52:56 maybe the thing you're doing is just wrong 20:52:57 (in the majority of cases) 20:53:10 what stassats said! 20:53:17 Maybe the thing I'm doing is not wrong. 20:53:19 *syntard_* studies symbol 2 20:53:22 You're great at assuming things. 20:53:59 "you're doing it wrong" is the right assumption in 99% of cases 20:54:06 let's argue about anaphoric macros. 20:54:06 What I'm doing is not a trap a newbie would fall into because it's too hard to accomplish for them ;P 20:54:11 I, for one, like anaphoric macros. 20:54:28 sykopomp: That's a known-bad idea. 20:54:30 although I like them better when you specify the variable. This 'it' thing is smelly. 20:54:39 sykopomp: they do it for you? 20:54:53 LOOP has anaphoric clauses, the horror! 20:55:01 sykopomp: I like _ for an anaphoric variable 20:55:05 That's the least of its concerns. 20:55:09 jdz [~jdz@host44-15-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 20:55:13 I've found that judicious use of anaphoric macros can make code more readable! 20:55:40 *syntard_* doesn't see the reason to put it in the first place 20:55:41 sykopomp: i've found the opposite. If we're going to combine LET and IF, i prefer if-bind. names are good 20:55:46 sykopomp: That seems to me a little like saying "I like implicit variables, but I like them better when they're explicit." 20:56:31 *syntard_* passes arguments on stack 20:56:46 Xach: I guess it's incorrect to call something like "(awhen var (form) (frob var))" anaphoric? 20:56:48 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:56:58 although I -do- use anaphora itself quite a bit. 20:57:31 sykopomp: that's not anaphoric at all, there's no anaphor 20:58:10 then I'm talking more about something like a when-bind, I guess. 20:58:16 Deixic macros? 20:58:19 the implicit 'it is silly. 20:58:21 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.151.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:46 sykopomp: no, you don't like anaphoric macros. 20:58:51 s/no/so 20:59:05 I still use anaphora :\ 20:59:43 anathema! 21:00:06 (let ((it (test this))) (when it (doit))) 21:00:32 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 21:00:35 That doesn't need a variable... 21:01:10 dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-238.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:01:23 -!- gozek [~quassel@85.52.166.111] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:55 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02:32 *drewc* see anaphora and when-bind the same way he sees "u r gr8 lol" in email messages... lazy writers with no respect for their readers :) 21:03:00 well, when-bind is not so bad, because at least there's a name. 21:03:44 when-bind -> when-let -> let-when -> (let (()) (when )) 21:03:47 no need! 21:03:58 but really, it should be an editor macro/snippet/whatever, not a lisp macro 21:04:24 drewc: You should have spiced up ILC! 21:04:28 boat schmoat! 21:04:29 I don't get it. I find even code that uses anaphora to be fairly readable. 21:04:40 Well, I use LIF all the time, because it's such a massively recurring scenario. I don't know if I'm alone, but I use IF regularly but almost never WHEN and UNLESS. 21:04:46 sykopomp: because you're used to it 21:05:10 stassats: I found it to be readable the first time I encountered it. 21:05:10 stassats: also probably because the snippets where I do use it are really small. 21:05:13 sykopomp: i find most ksh code perfectly readable... that doesn't mean i think it's a good syntax, just that i've read a lot of it. 21:05:22 i use IF rarely, usually WHEN or COND 21:05:37 of course, it's quite preferable to specify the name to bind to 21:05:41 stassats: Seems like we're polar opposites or something. 21:05:43 drewc: reasonable usage of anaphoric stuff helps readability (imho) 21:05:45 drewc: I think there's a difference between a large, 10+ line function peppered with anaphoric macros, and a three-line aif. 21:05:47 Ralith: you just misinterpret the past! 21:05:57 stassats: no, I'm pretty sure I don't. 21:05:58 sykopomp: There's a date library that I think has gone DOA that used to introduce 9 anaphoric variables for the results of decode-universal-time. 21:06:09 Xach: okay that's pretty horrible. 21:06:23 DOA? 21:06:23 Xach: :\ 21:06:24 i found it hard to read code that used it, and you of course couldn't use more than one at a time. 21:06:36 Hexstream: MIA, rather. 21:06:41 it's not the implicit binding that I like here, it's the binding and testing in a single form 21:06:44 That I understand. 21:06:48 allowing name specification solves that. 21:06:49 attila_lendvai: yes, but any reasonable use is small enough that typing an extra few characters is not going to make that much difference. 21:06:54 My uses tend to be limited to things like (awhen (test) (wrap it)) 21:07:16 drewc: I like code compactness. I find that careful compacting of code can make it more -readable-. 21:07:22 ^ 21:07:30 Ralith: let is a single form 21:07:37 sykopomp: do you like APL? 21:07:42 stassats: no 21:07:43 stassats: and it doesn't include testing. 21:07:50 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:07:54 (let ((result (test))) (when result (wrap result))) seems like way too much for a task that simple. 21:08:01 it's also an -extremely- common pattern. 21:08:05 ^ 21:08:07 testing for NIL is so passe anway... use the Maybe monad! 21:08:14 Ralith: you can include anything inside LET 21:08:20 chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has joined #lisp 21:08:24 stassats: other forms, yes 21:08:28 so it's not like this is some weirdo exception. These are the kinds of snippets that you'll see all over even the best-factored lisp code. 21:08:37 I tend to do a lot of (cond precond, precond, binding-precond, precond, thing) 21:08:50 sykopomp: i'd prefer (maybe-wrap (test)) 21:08:51 sykopomp: writing "result" 3 times instead of two? the horror! 21:09:10 drewc: it's not about typing... it's readability. (in my view typing is secondary regarding code clarity) 21:09:26 i wonder how much typing, bandwidth costs and disk space you could save with it 21:09:27 drewc: I like that too! 21:09:57 attila_lendvai: i agree, and think that there are better ways to express that then an anaphor, like naming the function that performs the test as i did above :) 21:10:34 (aprog1 (make-object) (frob it) (toss it) (spin it) (bump it)), too 21:11:00 Hum. Anyone use prog1 often?... 21:11:07 all the time! 21:11:19 sykopomp: just like in that spice girls hit, right? :) 21:11:26 attila_lendvai: ;) 21:11:39 sykopomp: (defun perform-object (it) (mapcar (lambda (f) (funcall f it)) 'frob toss spin bump)) 21:12:20 drewc: that particular alternative doesn't seem as nice. 21:12:38 i find it much nicer 21:13:05 You forgot some quotes there... 21:13:13 drewc: imho again, but functions introduced once, especially if naming them is hard (no real intention behind that grouping of operations), then it's one more indirection without real meaning which makes reading the code harder 21:13:14 drewc: it would be, if the code even worked. 21:13:17 yeah, i forgot some parens 21:13:22 s/introduced/used/ 21:13:23 -!- chitech [~khuongdp@85.218.156.170] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:13:33 and don't forget m-v-prog1! 21:13:39 but if your goal is to factor things out, you're not even generalizing that much. 21:14:07 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 21:14:08 I always found it weird that prog1 returns only the first value and multiple-value-prog1 exists... I can only guess this is for legacy considerations. 21:14:10 these are toy examples.. non? 21:14:32 Hexstream: and performance 21:14:32 (defun init-object (object &rest functions) (mapc (lambda (fn) (funcall fn object)) functions) object) is more along what prog1 does. 21:14:36 Would be much cleaner to have prog1 act as multiple-value-prog1 and then you just use (values (prog1 stuff)) 21:14:36 Hexstream: performance considerations as well. prog1 doesn't need to cons 21:14:52 (init-object (make-object) #'frob #'twist #'poke #'love) 21:15:03 sykopomp: yes! 21:15:03 how is it called, the fear of long names? 21:15:20 there is an Arc for that 21:15:58 Not sure if that's directed at me but I love long names. 21:16:00 drewc: it can get much noisier than aprog1 depending on whether you have all those functions ready. 21:16:17 lambda-spam can harm readability. 21:16:26 ah, fear of lambda 21:16:47 *drewc* loves seeing a nice function full of LAMBDA's... i know the semantics of LAMBDA by heart :) 21:17:16 don't frame it as a phobia. There's a tangible difference between (aprog1 (make-something) (do-something it 1 2 3) (some-other-effect :kwarg1 kwarg) ..) 21:17:33 -!- konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:36 stassats + drewc: Given the prevalence of multiple value returns in CL, I don't see why prog1 in particular would need the "extra performance" (probably quite negligible) more than other forms. 21:17:50 and (init-object (make-object) (lambda (obj) (do-something obj 1 2 3)) (lambda (obj) (declare (ignore obj)) (some-other-effect :kwarg1)) ...) 21:18:09 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066237.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:18:32 don't justify using mumbo-jumbo macros because of bad code 21:19:16 sykopomp: if you are usually the type who writes such messes, then maybe aprog1 helps. 21:19:36 I guess I would write that as (rcurry #'do-something 1 2 3) (fn (some-other-effect :kwarg1 kwarg)) 21:19:54 I might note that passing a value through multiple computations is exactly the problem the state monad solves. 21:20:49 TheEnd2012_ [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 21:20:50 I still don't think anaphoric macros are that bad. 21:20:55 identity monad? 21:21:02 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:21:23 pkhuong_: yeah, with SEQ or similar 21:22:11 (seq (make-object) (foo 1) (bar 1 2 3) (something else baz)), and curry the object param 21:23:01 That seems to be going a bit too far to me... 21:23:14 that looks even worse than aprog1 21:23:31 *drewc* laughs 21:23:34 Then what happens if you need to pass the object as the second parameter for one of the functions? 21:23:38 Crumbles like a house of cards. 21:23:47 drewc: do you have link? 21:23:53 just keep it simple and use curry/rcurry for fun and profit. 21:23:55 syntard_: to what? 21:24:15 Hexstream: you seem to have missed the 'curry the object param' bit 21:24:19 dewc: to monad implementation 21:24:35 i guess i'm not hip and cool enough to use curry 21:24:43 the object is _never_ passed to any of those functions. All those functions return a function that expects the object as it's only argument. 21:24:58 stassats: i refuse to use curry because it's a bad name for papply :) 21:25:04 Oh. So that's gratuitous haskell-style in Common Lisp then? 21:25:08 -!- TheEnd2012_ [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:25:28 *syntard_* finds cl-monad-macros 21:25:38 Hexstream: and even less readable! 21:26:06 Hexstream: if you say so. I'd call it functional programming, and i find CL is well suited to the task. 21:26:21 drowned in abstractions 21:26:46 CL is well-suited to pretty much any task. Not a good reason to pull in styles from other languages when it doesn't really buy you anything in the present situation. 21:27:01 gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.17] has joined #lisp 21:27:05 *drewc* laughs out loud 21:27:25 done right, it would be nicer 21:27:47 "i've never seen or used this style of programming, so it must not buy you anything and just be drewc being his wacky self." 21:27:53 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:28:30 i like stassats-oriented programming, it's easy to write and easy to read 21:28:30 drewc: I'm actually a big sucker for programming language features. 21:28:37 *p_l|home* kinda prefers Haskell for FP, but that's mainly because of some religiously-followed rules in the syntax et al. 21:28:40 drewc: what do you think of cl-monad-macros? 21:28:52 *drewc* mumbles something about casting pearls and goes back to writing real code 21:28:55 syntard_: it's shite 21:29:15 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:29:23 drewc: well, do you have something good to look at? 21:29:39 p_l|home: i like haskell's typeclasses, but hate fighting the type system. 21:30:06 drewc: did you end up looking at rahul's protocol hack? 21:30:08 p_l|home: and i like dynamically redefnining functions on web apps. 21:30:19 sykopomp: i did, it's just interface passing style as far as i could tell 21:30:24 no consing mutex, no consing spinlock ? 21:30:32 well, with less noise... 21:30:47 and I don't think it actually dispatches on the protocol itself. 21:30:57 so I don't think it has the same effect as IPS 21:31:03 i think i broke sbcl too now 21:31:08 bah 21:31:11 longshot [~longshot@207.204.226.230] has joined #lisp 21:31:32 sykopomp: what _does_ it dispatch on then? perhaps i read it wrong... and if it doesn't dispatch on an implementation of the protocol, what is it doing? 21:32:58 syntard_: http://common-lisp.net/~dcrampsie/smug.html <--- monadic parser combinators in idiomatic CL 21:33:01 drewc: I might be wrong, but I think the main thing is that it turns protocols (groupings of genfuns) into first-class objects. 21:33:24 so you can, for example, automatically verify that a protocol is implemented for a particular object. 21:33:45 as opposed to having several genfun definitions with a comment saying "Might want to implement these" 21:33:53 wow, a complete document on a drewc lib. 21:33:56 :) 21:34:02 felideon: it's not complete :) 21:34:14 I think it does some other stufff. Haven't looked deeply enough into it. 21:34:16 drewc: See? THAT seems like something I'd use a functional paradigm for. Instead of abusing Haskell style for no reason ;P 21:34:32 ah hehe 21:34:35 borism [~boris@ec2-79-125-58-77.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 21:34:36 drewc: dynamic redefinition is why I stick with CL ;) 21:34:43 Hexstream: how do you know all my other uses of monads are not similar? 21:35:01 I don't. 21:35:09 though I know people willing to teach me enough about the typesystem to make the program be compromised *only* of type definitions... o_O 21:35:24 Hexstream: you arrogance is at times quite astounding! (you black kettle you) 21:35:25 You seemed to be suggesting using these kinds of things for "straight" CL style. 21:35:33 Haha ;) 21:35:48 There's enough arrogance here for everyone. 21:36:24 Let's dismiss all other's ideas offhand without knowing any details... Eh, stassats? 21:36:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:37:32 Hexstream: you are aware that APROG1 is not ansi either... yes? 21:37:43 nybbles [~nybbles@vpn15.cs.ubc.ca] has joined #lisp 21:37:45 Yes. 21:37:48 heh, the job market seems to encourage the arrogance, at least in few places (not in the Java world, though) 21:37:59 (anyone seen ads for "rockstar" developers?) 21:38:15 I've seen some "Do you think in HOFs?" ones. 21:38:26 'straight CL' is LET + PROG1 21:38:37 You don't tell me. 21:39:26 I think you're "misunderestimating" me. 21:39:37 i certainly encourage the use of higher order functions over macros, if that's what your saying 21:39:43 drewc: I have to ask: How do monadic parsers usually perform? 21:39:50 Who doesn't?... 21:40:22 sykopomp: the implementation i show there is not optimized. I have a highly optimized one that performs really well. 21:40:38 drewc: what do optimizations usually involve for these? 21:40:48 For parsing nested structures like, say, sexps, it's infinitely faster then cl-ppcre :P 21:41:06 that seems pretty fast :) 21:41:29 I need to write a parser that depends on a lot of dynamic data. 21:41:33 well, I already wrote it, twice. 21:41:38 konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 21:41:40 but I might try rewriting it again using this! 21:42:13 drewc: there are extensions to regular expressions that handle those (: 21:42:36 *p_l|home* uses state machine for parsing/scanning, at least recently.. 21:43:22 sykopomp: the input protocol becomes a struct of #S(:index index :string string), all combinators are inlined, and if you really need to squeeze out that last bit, BIND and RESULT must become those of the Maybe monad rather than those from List. 21:43:33 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756cd1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:38 *syntard_* can understand anything but monads 21:43:40 s/all combinators/ all primitives combinators 21:43:52 obviously one cannot inline recursive combinators 21:44:06 *drewc* will paste an optimized version .. 21:44:26 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:44:36 I wonder... maybe with goto and an explicit stack or something?... (I'm out of my comfort zone so that might not make sense) 21:45:34 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116480 21:45:35 -!- xristos_ [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:45:43 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 21:46:23 Smug seems to be the parsing library I've been looking for all those years :) 21:47:12 drewc: is this the one you're actually using? 21:47:24 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:47:25 -!- SpitfireWP_ is now known as SpitfireWP 21:47:30 SMUG::DIGIT ? 21:48:32 sykopomp: i'm not really using it at all, it was more of a learning exercise... but the answer is.. sometimes. 21:48:47 sykopomp: i also have another version that does it 'correctly', 21:49:08 paramterized the reader, state, and maybe/list monads to derive Parser 21:49:35 ITEM is the only real primitive, the rest can be derived from other monads. 21:49:45 vroufe [~omx@ppp94-29-9-58.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 21:49:51 but smug is idiomatic and also faster 21:51:10 more importantly... that is a concise and readable lisp based parser library with only _one_ macro and no funny syntax 21:51:25 take that Meta! 21:51:44 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:55 pkhuong_: can regexps do non-determinism as well? :P 21:53:43 xristos [~x@2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fe47:788] has joined #lisp 21:53:57 drewc: erh. yes? 21:53:57 -!- xristos is now known as Guest17811 21:54:00 drewc: I can't load the file "value -19 is not of the expected type (UNSIGNED-BYTE 24)." 21:57:50 syntard_: works for me. what implementation? 21:57:59 drewc: ccl 21:58:26 drewc: also it said SMUG::DIGIT undefined in SMUG::natural-number 22:01:07 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01:18 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:33 syntard_: try removing the (DECLAIM INLINE) form and add (defun digit () (=satisfies 'digit-char-p)). 22:03:58 pkhuong_: oh oh i got it... are regular expressions trivially extensible? 22:04:21 -!- LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:04:53 LaPingvino [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 22:04:56 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:00 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:05:21 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 22:05:23 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:05:27 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:07:22 drewc: not trivially, but with some restrictions on the way nesting is denoted, it's pretty natural. 22:07:42 sexps are a good case: we can easily tell where nesting begings and ends. 22:08:37 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 22:09:33 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:38 Joreji__ [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:09:59 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 22:10:17 i suppose this is a turing tarpit, innit. :) 22:12:46 -!- osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:18:10 -!- Joreji__ [~thomas@67-052.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:18:51 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-114-196.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:19:36 drewc: how should skip-whitespace be defined? 22:20:04 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 22:21:39 syntard_: as it is in the paste 22:22:08 osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:16 drewc: duh, missed it 22:25:13 -!- muhdik [~IceChat7@parkmobile-usa.oneringnetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:26:30 drewc: it's not exported, that's why I couldn't use it 22:28:20 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 22:28:27 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 22:28:43 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:30:31 drewc: it works dammit 22:32:40 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6934.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:45 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@86.67.23.17] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:34:56 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 22:35:53 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@cpe-174-100-235-249.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:17 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-146.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:36:24 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@cpe-174-100-235-249.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:37:26 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:38:59 -!- Soulman1 [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 22:39:15 SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 22:39:40 -!- SpitfireWP_ [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:40:07 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 22:41:15 silenius [~silenus@rrcs-64-183-24-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:26 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:42:44 so... wait. in Lisp, I just write what the code should do, and then define what I said in terms of functions and macros? 22:43:10 osoleve: that's pretty much programming, isn't it? 22:43:32 I just kind of make it up as I go along, and then clarify what I mean later... 22:43:41 Whoa. 22:43:59 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:23 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:44:50 That seems like it would make development of larger applications more rapid and stable. 22:44:58 -!- sloanr [~user@64.244.48.114] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:10 Once, of course, one becomes fluent in lisp 22:45:25 sloanr [~user@64.244.48.114] has joined #lisp 22:46:17 osoleve: what do you mean? 22:46:45 ... "Language-driven programming"? 22:47:12 Also known as "the art of wishful thinking". 22:48:14 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:48:24 what does % mean in (defstruct (string-input (:constructor %make-string-input)) 22:48:26 (position 0) (string "" :type string)) 22:48:31 I tend to do a lot of that. You have the pie-in-the-sky "I'd like to write this and here's what the syntax and semantics could be like", and you have the implementation techniques you know, and you try to "tug" on both sides until you've got the whole design and implementation to make it work. 22:48:53 syntard_: According to CL semantics, nothing. 22:49:03 -!- jgballar1 [~jgballard@host109-156-5-61.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: bye] 22:49:08 It's possibly an "internal" function of some sort. 22:49:41 gonzojive [~red@171.66.75.42] has joined #lisp 22:49:41 As in, a function that won't be exported from the package. 22:49:45 jgballar1 [~jgballard@host109-156-5-61.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:54 % is just a "marker" to make that explicit. 22:50:47 drdo: If you can just write what you think the program should be doing via functions and control structures, and then define those functions and control structures later, why wouldn't that make developing the overarching structure of the program quicker, or make error-checking of functions more precise? 22:51:31 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.75.42] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:38 MorganB [~user@n128-227-41-90.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #lisp 22:52:15 -!- jgballar1 [~jgballard@host109-156-5-61.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 22:52:18 Hexstream: just can't find the damn thing 22:52:46 -!- sloanr [~user@64.244.48.114] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:53:07 Language-driven programming? I just made it up in analogy to "test-driven programming", where you write the tests first... 22:53:22 I'm pretty sure I'm not the first one to use that term... 22:54:09 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa983295.aspx 3rd result on google... 22:54:24 SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has joined #lisp 22:55:24 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:55:44 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:55:49 *syntard_* boinks self 22:56:11 *syntard_* bonks 22:56:40 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:58:07 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:59:45 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.57.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:30 -!- xinming [~hyy@218.73.131.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:04:22 ciaranb [~ciaran@5acba966.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:38 osoleve: there are many pitfalls and hard problems in language design.. coming up with some syntax and semantics out of the blue isn't likely to produce a coherent, useful, maintainable, adaptable, performant result. and then there's also the matter of bad, bad taste. just look at existing programming languages to see glaring faults left and right. 23:05:52 osoleve: but if you do it carefully and are aware of the many pitfalls and do things in a principled way, there's a lot of potential. I am reminded of Norvig's English Rule (see the Good Lisp Style presentation) 23:07:16 I'd say the design of relatively narrow DSL's is massively easier to get right. 23:07:37 shakshak [~user@41.238.33.63] has joined #lisp 23:08:19 There are bigger payoffs for less effort to be had there. 23:10:08 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:10:45 p_l|home: Fixed my clx problem. It was an xauth issue, which only had an entry for localhost/unix. open-display wanted the hostname. 23:11:07 homie: I tried it out on my Linux box. demos::do-all-demos works fine. 23:11:29 rtoym: how ? 23:11:52 How what? 23:12:28 rtoym: why is the hostname not provided as default to open-display ? 23:13:36 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:14:10 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:23 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-88-238.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:16:29 -!- ciaranb [~ciaran@5acba966.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: ciaranb] 23:16:54 osoleve: What exactly are you even talking about? 23:17:05 (I joined recently so maybe i missed something) 23:17:30 count down until 5 minutes then 23:17:47 ? 23:18:31 to gain context 23:20:41 homie: The demos call open-clx-display which gets the display from the DISPLAY envvar (:0.0 in my case). Then open-display is called with a host of "" and a protocol of :local. This calls get-best-authorization which sees that and replaces "" with my machine name. That doesn't exist in my xauthority file, so open-display fails. 23:21:03 I added host/unix:0 to my xauth file. 23:21:23 ciaranb [~ciaran@5acba966.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:30 -!- ciaranb [~ciaran@5acba966.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 23:21:55 homie: So I have no clue on why the demos don't work for you. Are you sure you're getting clx-library and not the portable clx version? 23:22:41 jep, tried both, clx-library fails with those errors, end clx-0.7.4 does not run at all like i said 23:23:05 i mean it runs, but that's a fail for me with the repeats 23:23:51 and for the other case, i don't know why sbcl runs them without having to set such things .... 23:24:53 Which demo fails? 23:25:30 rtoym: god, rtoym all of them fail, they repeat and repat over and over 23:25:44 once started 23:26:37 So (demos::qix-demo) just keeps repeating over and over? 23:26:40 (demos:demo) runs a menu, to select from, and just one of the examples suffices, and yes i tried all of them 23:27:28 -!- V-ille [~ville@ville-hp.dhcp.fnal.gov] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:27:48 the drawings are started anew, when the demo should have actually finished executing 23:27:52 can anyone point me to any decent docs on Cells? i read the manifesto and saw the simple example, but that doesn't really walk through using it. ditto for the presentation 23:29:15 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 23:30:04 DanLentz [~danlentz@32.166.79.148] has joined #lisp 23:30:09 homie: Hmm. When I do it that way, they just keep running too. 23:30:27 oh 23:30:28 But not when I run, say, (demos::petal-demo) 23:30:32 that's news 23:31:26 From looking at the code for demo, that seems to be what's supposed to happen. 23:31:51 -!- aDuck [~aduck@bl13-149-95.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:31:54 -!- murilass1 [~murilasso@189.103.20.140] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:31:56 -!- felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:34:17 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:18 homie: So, what can we conclude from this? That you didn't understand what was really supposed to happen. :-) 23:34:53 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-119-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:57 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 23:36:01 -!- drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:13 rtoym: where did you get the last conclusion from ? there's nothing indicating they should run forever 23:36:45 homie: Likewise, there's nothing that says they shouldn't. 23:37:44 I was, however, surprised by that. Which just means I didn't know what was supposed to happen either. 23:37:56 rtoym: so what is causing the repeats then ? 23:38:21 _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:38:58 homie: Go look at the source for the function demo. Near the end, you'll see that a process is created and the process does an infinite loop, calling the demo and sleeping for 2 sec. 23:39:46 rtoym: oh man mp 23:41:58 Make sense now? 23:42:04 ok i take all back lol 23:42:52 Is that the beauty of opensource? You can go look and see why things are the way they are. 23:43:02 -!- trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:44:27 beauty of opensource is that perfectly good software doesn't get lost to the churn of the corporate machine, hehe 23:45:05 -!- SpitfireWP [~Spitfire@wikipedia/spitfire] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:48:31 so instead of starting them in parallel, it just starts them in serial, one process ends and the other starts, and 23:48:31 when the selected fun was already just 1, that one will get run forever... 23:49:07 That's not how I read the code. No process ever ends. 23:49:36 oh 23:50:04 jup 23:50:08 Granted, I've never used the mp package before, but it doesn't look like any process ever ends. 23:50:26 cause there's no list to end for 23:50:38 it's just a loop around that one fun 23:51:30 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:51:53 so the loop is around the funcall 23:53:43 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.210.146] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 23:54:30 Exactly. 23:57:39 drdo [~user@2.208.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:57:51 rtoym: wait, when the loop were around a list would the list would be cycled again too ? 23:57:52 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:58:15 rtoym: i don't know what mp reallly does 23:58:39 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:42 homie: loop around a list? What does that mean? 23:58:43 or what is reentrant and not 23:58:57 mp is the multiprocessing system for cmucl. 23:58:58 V-ille [~ville@70.42.89.16] has joined #lisp 23:59:28 not loop around a funcall but an explicit list of demo names 23:59:41 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: format t "motherfuckers"]