00:00:06 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has left #lisp 00:01:21 Fade: it is faster now. i just put dev into quicklisp dists, it was quite happy 00:02:03 -!- ArtVandalae [~SuperUnkn@220-253-40-212.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:04:52 -!- blabla [~lisps@BSN-61-57-189.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has quit [Quit: blabla] 00:06:53 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:11:39 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:14 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu241.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:18:04 Xach_ [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:00 -!- cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has quit [Quit: Meow, meOUT!] 00:21:23 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:22:05 -!- Xach_ is now known as Xach 00:24:02 seangrove [~user@70-6-113-169.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:30 cmeow [cmeow@happy.happy.vhost.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 00:25:05 How can I have a string with double-quotes in it? 00:25:17 seangrove: use \" 00:25:30 I thought so, I just see \" in the repl output as well 00:25:40 yep 00:25:41 I suppose that for output as a value it wouldn't have that 00:25:45 seangrove: a string with one character that is a double-quote prints as "\"" 00:26:08 seangrove: that's because lisp tries to print things in a way that can be read back in. 00:26:30 ah, that's awesome 00:26:31 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp79-139-172-111.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:26:37 a string with one character that is a backslash prints as "\\" 00:28:06 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:10 vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 00:28:40 Alright, I'm curious about the idea of destructuring - is the where I have a list like '(width 100% height 50px) and I'd be able to read it into a loop two items at a time via something like (loop (a v) my-list ... 00:29:05 note that I completely made up the syntax, I always forget lisps' loop syntax, just wondering if this is somewhere near the mark 00:29:15 seangrove: sort of. you're right, that syntax is wrong. 00:29:43 woo hoo, an sbcl build in 4m39s 00:29:53 symbole [~yaaic@204.sub-75-193-227.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:11 Where can I read about the syntax for this and loop? 00:30:15 minion: destructure 00:30:16 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``destructure''. 00:30:48 seangrove: destructuring is more like providing a possibly-nested list of variables that match up to a possibly-nested list of values. 00:30:57 with lambda list features and things like that. 00:31:10 JohnnyL [excellent_@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:16 you can read about loop in Lisp books like PCL, or get the specification from the hyperspec. 00:31:26 Thanks 00:31:41 aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:31:45 I'll look into destructuring a bit later then.. sounds like it's useful for more complex data structures 00:32:50 Maybe. I haven't used it for anything much more complex than a macro like with-open-file. 00:33:24 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:33:42 (loop for (k v) on my-plist by #'cddr do ...) is a common idiom. 00:35:08 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:39:28 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:41:51 -!- SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:04 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:48 fragione_ [~fragione@109.64.194.222] has joined #lisp 00:44:25 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 00:44:42 askatasuna [beb0d087@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.176.208.135] has joined #lisp 00:45:55 -!- seangrove [~user@70-6-113-169.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:46:38 -!- fragione [~fragione@bzq-79-177-247-68.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:47:05 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-196-228.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 00:47:43 anyone know of good exercises, text or problem sets for playing with SCREAMER and non-deterministic and constraint-programming stuff in CL? 00:48:45 fusss: http://weitz.de/einstein.html 00:48:48 it was might impressive to be able to write integer factorization stuff in 4-lines, but need more ideas to push this thing 00:49:07 Xach: good one :-) 00:49:36 i have a few prolog books, and I can "port" those to lisp, but wanted to push the other non-prolog CLP stuff as well 00:49:58 I did a basic maximal-munch implementation too, again 10 lines 00:50:45 -!- ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:51:07 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-217.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 00:52:02 ltriant [~ltriant@lithium.mailguard.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:52:41 fusss: norvig's AI: a modern approach has a chapter con CLP 00:52:57 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483D4A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:53:05 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:54:07 askatasuna: I am traveling and need to do with my ebooks atm. airlines don't allow AIMA as carry-on luggage (> 30lbs) 00:54:26 ;-) 00:55:02 oh, it is a bit heavy 00:55:09 in all senses 00:56:45 Xach: perhaps you should consider Clojure to build sbcl in 4.39 s instead? 00:57:40 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 00:57:41 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:57:59 syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:14 or even 43.9 ms. 00:59:25 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.216.151] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:01:18 Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 01:01:19 -!- syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:01:37 syntard [~chatzilla@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:39 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-196-228.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:01:48 -!- symbole [~yaaic@204.sub-75-193-227.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org] 01:01:59 pjb: must not be a java thing. abcl builds in ~2 mins 01:02:05 symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:22 gigamonkey: alright! 01:02:22 arbscht, memo from gigamonkey: You can put that audio up if you want. Be advised that I'm just assuming I have the right to give you permission to do so. It's possible the ACM or the ALU could claim that I don't have such a right. 01:02:30 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:50 -!- askatasuna [beb0d087@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.176.208.135] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:03:00 aaaaaarbscht 01:03:09 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:04:16 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:47 -!- Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:07:36 Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 01:07:59 -!- jeti [~user@p54B470E2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:08:34 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 01:12:10 -!- Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:15:21 superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:52 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 01:17:16 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.59] has joined #lisp 01:17:19 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 01:18:16 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:20:16 madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:22:08 -!- konr [~user@187.106.38.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:22:13 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 01:26:07 arbscht: where will you put it? 01:27:42 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:31 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: nighty night] 01:30:10 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.84.59] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 01:31:01 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-7-39.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:32:08 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-87-53.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:33:18 anair_84 [~anair_84@149.142.112.2] has joined #lisp 01:34:53 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:36:08 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@124-148-32-163.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:38:53 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-151.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:38:54 thoolihan [~thoolihan@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:47 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-139-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:39:48 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-139-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:40:03 fragione__ [~fragione@bzq-109-67-249-1.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:07 -!- fragione_ [~fragione@109.64.194.222] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:41:55 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-204-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:41:55 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-204-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:44:42 -!- thoolihan [~thoolihan@99-157-225-37.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: http://twitter.com/thoolihan] 01:50:03 rTypo [~rTypo@pc54.clicknet.iasi.rdsnet.ro] has joined #lisp 01:52:22 fragione_ [~fragione@bzq-79-180-192-206.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:32 <`3b`> can anyone with a non-sbcl lisp handy tell me if (eql (cffi:make-pointer 12345) (cffi:make-pointer 12345)) is true or not? (or EQ, EQUAL, EQUALP if not) 01:54:57 fragione [~fragione@109.66.192.79] has joined #lisp 01:55:50 -!- fragione__ [~fragione@bzq-109-67-249-1.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:56:17 _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:56:27 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:43 -!- fragione_ [~fragione@bzq-79-180-192-206.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:56:50 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:57:56 fragione_ [~fragione@bzq-79-183-192-219.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:36 `3b`: in ccl, it's (NIL T T T) 01:58:46 -!- m0wfo [~m0wfo@109.125.10.104] has quit [Quit: m0wfo] 01:58:57 Both on x86_64. 02:00:12 I assume cffi on ccl represents pointers as ccl:macptr objects; macptrs are eql if they refer to the same address. 02:00:23 It's on linux. 02:00:49 macptr is a historical name; it really means "foreign pointer" 02:00:52 Ok. 02:00:54 fragione__ [~fragione@bzq-79-176-195-130.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:44 -!- fragione [~fragione@109.66.192.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:03:47 <`3b`> ok, so there is at least some merit to arguing that at least one of those working on SBCL would make my code more portable :) 02:04:19 -!- fragione_ [~fragione@bzq-79-183-192-219.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:04:30 Obviously, you want to use equalp, if you want portable. 02:04:42 <`3b`> well, on sbcl (equalp #1=(cffi:make-pointer 12345) #1#) => nil :/ 02:04:47 ? 02:04:56 All the others too I hope. 02:05:03 <`3b`> ah, did i get that wrong? 02:05:20 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslei013.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:05:32 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 02:05:47 Probably, or there's a bug somewhere. 02:05:59 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:06:42 <`3b`> my understanding is that SAPs on sbcl are not EQ in the same way characters and numbers aren't, but don't have a special case in EQL etc either 02:07:42 There is sap=. 02:07:58 <`3b`> right, but sap= isn't a portable hash table test 02:08:23 *`3b`* isn't sure it would even work on sbcl specifically 02:08:25 sbcl has an extensible hash-table test mechanism, doesn't it? 02:08:30 <`3b`> probably 02:09:32 <`3b`> but i'm using cffi to avoid needing to do the platform specific bits myself 02:09:47 <`3b`> for now i will just convert it to an integer and use that as a key 02:10:14 vlion [~user@76.178.165.160] has joined #lisp 02:10:22 <`3b`> but i wanted to file a bug on launchpad while i remembered what the problem is, since i've hit it before 02:10:43 <`3b`> so wanted to find out what other platforms do 02:13:19 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:29 Implementation dependent stuff, I expect. 02:17:12 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-210-235.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:17:48 -!- TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@124-148-32-163.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:22:15 chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has joined #lisp 02:28:25 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-15.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 02:29:23 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-96-65.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:29:59 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-7-39.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:30:04 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:31:54 <`3b`> rme: does that 'eql if refers to same address' apply to using macptr as key in a hash table too? 02:32:18 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-15.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 02:33:12 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:33:23 <`3b`> rme: or rather, 'should it apply', since it doesn't seem too when i try it 02:33:51 srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:15 `3b`: I don't know why it wouldn't work; it does for me. 02:38:47 <`3b`> ah, seems i ran the wrong lisp without noticing, sorry :) 02:39:56 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:40:49 Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@bas1-guelph22-1177908019.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:41:05 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:41:19 <`3b`> rme: right, works as expected when i actually use ccl 02:43:27 splittist [~John@125.214.249.195] has joined #lisp 02:44:20 morning 02:45:23 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:46:19 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:47:07 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.60.232] has joined #lisp 02:47:08 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-9-4.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:47:52 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:50:38 -!- jrockway 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[~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 04:41:55 anair_84 [~anair_84@149.142.112.2] has joined #lisp 04:44:02 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F9E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:51:18 az [~az@p5796C41B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:29 morlos [~morlos@cpe-76-171-76-155.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:52:10 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:52:31 Good morning everyone! 04:53:34 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-139-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:53:51 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-139-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:57:24 hohoho [~hohoho@p57c488.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:01:05 mstevens [~mstevens@jobs.etla.org] has joined #lisp 05:01:06 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@jobs.etla.org] has quit [Changing host] 05:01:06 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 05:03:53 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@149.142.112.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:06:58 maden [~maden@173.177.60.219] has joined #lisp 05:09:08 beach: morning! 05:09:12 and what a fine morning it is 05:09:34 (read: 7h till deadline for assessment and I don't have any idea if what I am writing will even compile) 05:10:49 ohi 05:11:13 ... in jest, I'll hand in obfuscated code 05:11:13 -!- maden [~maden@173.177.60.219] has quit [Client Quit] 05:12:15 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:54 -!- srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14:21 p_l|home: What is it that you are writing? 05:14:23 (not hard, since I'm generating C from a FSM compiler..., GOTO, ho!) 05:15:07 beach: matching brackets (using ANSI escape sequences) and colouring blocks (using HTML), in both cases operating on C source 05:17:36 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-139-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:17:46 (and C/C++ is expected language used for solution) 05:19:10 n.b. porting Ragel to at least support generation of CL code would be a noble thing to do. 05:21:13 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:21:31 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:23:28 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 05:26:19 aceluck [~aceluck@175.137.78.28] has joined #lisp 05:30:02 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-139-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 05:31:52 hmmm... my poor C parser starts to make sense 05:37:16 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:45 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: mstevens] 05:50:51 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-39-101.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:51:42 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-95-246.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:55:52 -!- dto1 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[~greg@cpe-76-176-111-55.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:39:53 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 06:41:52 longshot [~longshot@207.204.225.81] has joined #lisp 06:43:30 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 06:45:06 psilord [~psilord@76.201.145.79] has joined #lisp 06:45:32 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:48:21 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-htkykeacapqjmtfp] has joined #lisp 06:48:42 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:55:41 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:06:06 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-81-165.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:06:59 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:07:05 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B327B6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:35 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-39-101.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:08:17 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B327C3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:12:05 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:13:22 sykopomp: herep 07:13:26 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:13:41 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:48 stassats: (1 2 3) 07:15:36 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 07:15:47 sykopomp: in your blog you say "Consider that CLOS allows you to define methods on built-in classes" do you mean "consider" like "imagine"? 07:15:59 stassats: "take into account" 07:16:29 ok, but it was confusing 07:16:32 to contrast it with languages that don't allow you to extend existing classes, or define methods on classes for built-in data structures. 07:16:35 sorry 07:17:17 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:18:07 clos allows you to define methods for your own gfs on built-in classes, but you can't define methods for built-in gfs where every parameter is specialized on built-in classes 07:18:19 so, i was confused whether you were confused or not 07:18:32 I'm starting to get confused now, for sure! 07:18:35 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 07:18:51 that's good 07:18:55 me too, stassats example? 07:19:33 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 07:19:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 07:19:47 the last item 07:21:41 Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:00 -!- sellout [~greg@cpe-76-176-111-55.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: sellout] 07:24:02 -!- Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:27 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:24:45 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.137.78.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:27:57 beach: http://paste.lisp.org/+2HPB <--- Student vs. FSM 07:28:48 flying spaghetti monster? 07:29:14 Finite State Machine? 07:29:23 Finite State machine 07:29:38 -!- xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:29:40 that's too obvious 07:30:32 *p_l|home* thinks of embedding this somewhere in submitted code 07:31:00 efthymios_ [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:11 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:14 -!- efthymios_ is now known as Efthymios 07:36:18 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:37:51 aceluck [~aceluck@175.137.78.28] has joined #lisp 07:41:04 d-c [~DC@58.30.13.11] has joined #lisp 07:48:36 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.137.78.28] has quit [Quit: aceluck] 07:51:46 -!- Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55:58 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:56:14 good morning 07:56:33 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:57:22 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:58:30 kingless [~user@adsl-162-136-191.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:32 yay, my angry-fruit-salad in C finished, now I have <4hrs left to do the HTML part! 08:00:50 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:01:12 ... not done >_< 08:03:41 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:05:47 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:06:43 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:09:02 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:09:27 konr` [~user@187.106.38.106] has joined #lisp 08:12:19 fragione_ [~fragione@bzq-79-176-251-241.red.bezeqint.net] 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09:55:34 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:57:05 Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:59:37 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E309.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:48 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:01:55 vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 10:02:16 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:02:17 zomgbie_ [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:03:05 -!- H4ns [~user@pD4B9EAD0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:04:45 Yuuhi [benni@p5483CB84.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:56 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:18:21 marijnjh [~user@p5DDB3ACA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:31 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu250.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:19:16 so, if nl.marijn.haverbeke.my-package is way too long to type, and I'll add a short package nickname anyway, is there any merit at all to the long name? 10:19:32 or should we just all stop pretending that java package names were a good idea? 10:20:55 No merit 10:21:01 IMO they're a good idea, as long as the user can add nicknames 10:21:03 Use a short unique name! 10:21:25 fe[nl]ix: but won't the nicknames clash just as badly as the package names? why bother at all, then? 10:21:34 user vs. developer 10:21:51 how do you mean? 10:21:58 the *user* i.e. the programmer using the library, not the library author 10:22:10 marijnjh: you name it awkwardly.long.to.type, someone who wants to use it adds a local nickname of awk 10:22:24 ahh, right, people can add their own nicknames 10:22:27 marijnjh: that's not something anyone does currently, so i don't think it's a useful argument for long names. 10:22:33 mulander [mulander@078088239019.lubin.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:22:35 that makes nicknames slightly more sensible 10:22:41 kingless [~user@adsl-162-136-191.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:05 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756abf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:35 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:23:39 marijnjh: there's no straightforward way to do that using what's in the standard 10:24:00 fe[nl]ix: too bad! then I go back to my previous position ;) 10:24:27 fe[nl]ix: you mean a short function call without a lot of nesting, or what? 10:24:40 marijnjh: i see you don't read planet lisp :( 10:24:58 Xach: i do, that's what started this train of thought 10:25:12 phew 10:25:23 Xach: that, and someone in the JS community ridiculing those who want to introduce java-style package names in JS 10:25:26 Xach: yes 10:25:56 boscop [~boscop@f055011212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:26:26 -!- rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-217-160-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:26:27 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:31 Xach: AFAICT, the only way to add a nickname is to redefine the package 10:26:43 fe[nl]ix: Incorrect. 10:26:58 rename-package will do it, but you have to add a package-nicknames call to get the existing nicknames. 10:27:07 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@f055159129.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:28:14 marijnjh: i hope to compile a list of all package names and nicknames in quicklisp projects, to answer questions like "Is the name 'foobar' taken?" 10:28:35 Same with systems, and exported symbols: "Can I use packages 'baz' and 'quux' without conflicts?" 10:28:36 Xach: I saw, and that's a much better approach than overly long names 10:29:03 *Xach* wonders if this will work out like thai surnames 10:30:05 -!- kingless [~user@adsl-162-136-191.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:30:55 and i am really desperate for global apropos, because i think someone already wrote ADD-NICKNAME or similar in a utility library 10:31:42 Xach: is anyone doing a global apropos? 10:32:20 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 10:32:36 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu250.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:32:49 marijnjh: I would like to do one. If someone else did it and gave it to me, that would also be nice. 10:32:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:09 Mostly a SMOP, but I have several things ahead of it in line. 10:39:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 10:46:59 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 10:47:33 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Client Quit] 10:47:59 chelz [~iridesenc@unaffiliated/chelz] has joined #lisp 10:51:57 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-32-186.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:57:09 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.35] has joined #lisp 10:59:11 BrandLeeJones_ [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 10:59:22 I find it curious that after all those years, there appears to be a strong concensus among many lispers that "point of use, not definition" (to use the title from that anonymous comment on Xach's blog) for nicknames would be the right thing to do -- yet I haven't heard from many people actually going that route. 10:59:25 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:59:25 -!- BrandLeeJones_ is now known as BrandLeeJones 11:01:57 lichtblau: maybe there haven't been enough sufficiently useful projects with too-painfully-long package names and no nicknames. 11:02:40 lichtblau: maybe you could rename cxml to de.antidisestablishmentariasm.utils.xml and steadfastly refuse a short nickname... 11:03:37 lichtblau: doing that properly requires changes to the reader to allow package-local nicknames 11:03:39 lichtblau: maybe because we don't have portable conduits? 11:05:08 I think lack of a technical solution isn't the problem, since cl-package-aliases is portable enough. Personally I've went ahead and used package-local nicknames this way, and it works as advertised. 11:05:51 The thing is: Having used package-local nicknames now, I find them rather inconvenient. I keep finding myself in the REPL in a package that doesn't have the local nicknames I've come to expect from my packages, and then I need to type the full name after all. 11:06:28 iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@116.201.142.243] has joined #lisp 11:06:35 That almost ends up being more "thinking before typing" than it's worth. 11:06:39 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:41 So I'm wondering whether all the proponents of package-local nicknames have actually tried what they are arguing for. 11:11:13 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 11:12:47 hm, is there a non-arithmetic shift in CL? I guess not, given that it doesn't really 'do' modulo arithmetic 11:13:04 (where shift = bitshift) 11:13:43 cl:ash 11:13:59 clhs ash 11:13:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ash.htm 11:14:14 that's arithmetic. I need something where shifting -2 by 1 produces 2147483647 11:14:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:14:30 (this to make my JavaScript implementation conform) 11:15:20 shakshak [~user@41.239.199.239] has joined #lisp 11:15:50 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:16:20 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:17:35 -!- shakshak [~user@41.239.199.239] has left #lisp 11:17:42 (ash (ldb (byte 32 0) -2) -1)? 11:18:09 -!- chelz [~iridesenc@unaffiliated/chelz] has left #lisp 11:19:13 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 11:20:00 concave [~concave@c-24-118-48-38.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:28 Xach: brilliant! I still need to check whether the first argument is negative, but other than that it works 11:21:50 lichtblau: both kinds of aliases are useful 11:22:52 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:23:57 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:24:27 marijnjh: are you at Streamtech? 11:25:06 aerique: I used to be, but not for the past three years 11:25:51 -!- iNtERrUpT [~interrupt@116.201.142.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:25:57 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:27:22 marijnjh: ah, i'm not really up-to-date then 11:27:56 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 11:29:45 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.46] has joined #lisp 11:34:38 -!- concave [~concave@c-24-118-48-38.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:35:21 sykopomp` [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:57 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:36:23 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:38:38 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-108-179.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:40:10 aDuck [~aduck@bl9-174-81.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:40:26 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:42:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:44:16 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-165-15.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:44:50 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-82.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:46:12 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-171-9.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:48:43 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-24-61-131-100.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:52:11 unkanon_ [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 11:52:15 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-210-235.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:52:47 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-90-38.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:54:33 -!- Jasko2 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:56:39 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:08 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p57c488.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:57:08 -!- unkanon_ [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 11:59:07 The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 12:00:28 -!- The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:04:42 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:06:10 any common-lisp.net admin online? 12:06:48 LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@ppp-58-8-156-143.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:07:19 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 12:07:35 aerique: -> #tech.coop 12:07:48 cheers 12:10:31 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:10:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:13:37 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 12:13:37 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 12:13:37 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:15:35 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:15:38 tfb [~tfb@94.197.60.199.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:18:24 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:23:27 xaec [~Lejf.lejf@h-46-59-8-191.NA.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 12:25:35 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:31 -!- LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@ppp-58-8-156-143.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:27:47 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-025-078.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:28:23 carlocci [~nes@93.37.197.163] has joined #lisp 12:28:45 oh, i once considered applying to Streamtech.. 12:30:56 -!- fpletz [~fpletz@2001:7f0:3003:42:ccc:acab:ed:23] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:35:11 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:35:47 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:36:26 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.21.150.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:37:01 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 12:38:52 HG` [~HG@xdslel179.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:39:11 marijnjh: would you recommend streamtech for an intern? :) 12:39:26 MoALTz [~no@92.21.150.137] has joined #lisp 12:41:00 enupten [~neptune@117.254.154.19] has joined #lisp 12:41:45 fpletz [~fpletz@2001:7f0:3003:42:ccc:acab:ed:23] has joined #lisp 12:41:52 -!- tfb [~tfb@94.197.60.199.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:43:01 Is that a lisp company? 12:43:02 p_l|home: note that I'm not up-to-date on what they're doing now, or how the culture developed, but they were working on interesting stuff when I was there -- I learned a lot 12:43:18 p_l|home: just negotiate that you don't want to work on any of their legacy PHP codebases ;) 12:43:54 does anyone know why sb-cover package can't be found within sbcl ? 12:44:04 marijnjh: hahaha 12:44:34 *p_l|home* recently got stumped (again) because he is fighting mod_rewrite instead of finished the fairly simple, but still PHP site... 12:45:35 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:39 jdz: i applied a year ago but was too expensive with my old age and mortgage 12:46:21 aerique: yeah, that stuff limits the choice 12:47:07 homie: if a package can't be found, that usually means you haven't loaded it. 12:47:21 homie: for sb-cover, (require 'sb-cover) usually suffices to load it. 12:47:24 TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 12:50:28 -!- trigen [~MSX@81.18.253.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:51:10 no i geta simple-reader-package error telling me sb-cover could not be found, though all the other's before it 12:51:10 could be found 12:51:37 homie: That's because you have not loaded sb-cover. 12:51:46 homie: Try loading sb-cover first. 12:51:59 i did a (mapc 'require '(sb-cover)), why should i not have loaded it ? 12:52:02 -!- chp [3d87a5ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.61.135.165.174] has left #lisp 12:52:44 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-90-38.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:52:55 homie: Does (find-package 'sb-cover) work now? 12:52:58 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.154.19] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 12:53:02 homie: Did you put that in a source file? 12:53:10 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 12:53:29 homie: Or is that something you wrote at the REPL? 12:53:39 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@124-171-215-74.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:53:48 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 12:53:54 If you put it in a source-file, it must also be in an eval-when so it is called before the forms with sb-cover symbols are read. 12:54:49 wait i did not try to find it with find-package, maybe my system did not build it ? or something 12:54:56 yep, find-package fails all thru 12:54:59 homie: What about my other questions? Is that in a source file? 12:55:06 trigen [~MSX@81.18.253.210] has joined #lisp 12:55:14 yes in my .sbclrc 12:55:24 but doing it from the repl does not work too 12:55:33 What happens if you (require 'sb-cover) from the repl? 12:55:36 (find-package 'sb-cover) gives nil 12:56:51 and (require 'sb-cover) gives a ("SB-COVER") 12:57:40 now find package does find it 12:57:43 ok 12:58:55 hah 12:59:10 putting it in my source file does ust not work why ? 12:59:18 s/ust/just/ 12:59:54 _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.111.187] has joined #lisp 13:00:02 homie: Because it is a plain old function call, and that is not required to have compile-time effects, but you need its effects to read the rest of the file. 13:00:15 homie: that is why eval-when makes it happen when you need it. 13:02:05 Joreji [~thomas@89-001.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:03:00 I just got my hands of a copy of Land of Lisp, and it suggests that I use CLISP for the exercises. 13:03:11 However, I'm accustomed to SBCL. 13:03:16 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:03:20 Is it that big of a difference? 13:03:24 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:24 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 13:04:00 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-171-215-74.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:04:13 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.111.187] has left #lisp 13:04:14 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@CPE-65-31-225-242.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:05:03 osoleve: maybe not. 13:05:11 osoleve: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1851948 13:05:34 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:06 awesome, thank you 13:08:29 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:50 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:15:26 -!- ArtVanda1ae [~SuperUnkn@220-253-17-149.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:16:29 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:42 helo me 13:17:44 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 13:17:44 hello, syntard 13:20:29 geneven [~geneven@cpe-76-173-9-27.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:46 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-99-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:21:36 is there a special way to enable backtrace in sbcl? the vague errors don't help me learn much :( 13:22:06 type :backtrace, but better use sbcl in combination with slime 13:22:32 i'm having too many issues getting slime working with emacs on my machine 13:22:38 how comes? 13:22:56 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:57 it's usually pretty simple; what machine is that? 13:23:09 not sure. it says it's installed, it's in the menubar for emacs, but NOTHING is selectable 13:23:20 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:23:24 i'm running Sabayon 5.x 13:23:24 What did you do? 13:23:32 killerboy [~mateusz@pc-212-51-221-162.p.lodz.pl] has joined #lisp 13:23:37 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:23:43 in what regards? 13:23:49 is that a linux distribution? 13:23:56 Sabayon is a fork of Gentoo 13:24:12 so, yes 13:24:37 Do you know about Quicklisp? 13:24:42 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-139-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:24:46 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-139-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:24:50 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:24:54 no, i'm fairly new to lisp 13:24:59 and by fairly, i mean very 13:25:08 quicklisp might make it easy to get slime working for you with sbcl. 13:25:10 i'm just infatuated with it, haha 13:25:20 ok, i'll google it 13:25:26 thanks, Xach 13:25:56 there's a project you can install (after installing quicklisp) called "quicklisp-slime-helper". the instructions it shows are a little incomplete, though, and i'd be happy to help you make it work for you. 13:25:57 or it may launch nuclear missiles against Norway and cause Venus to spontaneously implode 13:26:03 but you know, your call 13:26:28 make sure to read the instructions 13:26:49 documentation-schmocumentation, it's just Norway 13:26:59 but I appreciate the help 13:27:46 hmm, quicklisp is in neither the entropy tree nor the portage tree 13:28:35 osoleve: http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 13:28:37 sounds like a question for #Sabayon 13:29:21 Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has joined #lisp 13:29:48 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:29:52 I wonder how (in)compatible quicklisp is for distributor's purposes 13:30:11 *Xach* hopes distributors can use quicklisp's metadata, doesn't see how they can include quicklisp itself 13:30:35 just a general question, is Lisp use prevalent on Windows systems? I've been very out of touch with Windows for a few years 13:31:18 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:20 osoleve: Not here, but people use Lisp on Windows for commercial projects pretty frequently. 13:31:44 Here being #lisp, or your physical location? 13:31:48 I wonder if it'd be possible to make an apt adapter for quicklisp that rebuilt quicklisp packages on the fly 13:31:51 Here being #lisp. 13:32:15 Because access to room full of Lisp-ers and fellow *nix users is just... incredible. 13:32:26 actually, Cambridge as a whole is fairly Windows-free as any part of the world 13:32:26 *syntard* is happy using ccl on windows 13:33:17 syntard: Don't worry,i'm not a hater of windows users, just of windows itself. I have very personal issues with the operating system. 13:33:19 osoleve: Well, that's part of the emphasis of freenode. 13:33:48 Xach: gotcha. I'm also pretty new to IRC as well, so, forgive me for my misgivings. 13:34:04 I'll try to fit in. :) 13:34:57 osoleve: my environment doesn't look different from that on *nix, while I'm in emacs 13:35:25 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-139-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:55 ooh, I hope there's an #emacs channel. I just started that, too, and it feels like an OS within a text editor haha 13:36:09 freenode is having a fundraiser to cover costs, btw, and you can donate "from" a channel 13:36:11 -!- psilord [~psilord@76.201.145.79] has left #lisp 13:36:19 it'd be nice to see #lisp on there 13:36:33 (at a bigger font size, I mean) 13:37:26 dlowe: I could never make a meaningful contribution (i'm abroke college student living at home on medical leave), but I have been known to support things I find especially useful. 13:38:41 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-139-210.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:42 urandom__ [~user@p548A7D79.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:07 vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 13:41:48 -!- geneven [~geneven@cpe-76-173-9-27.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:43 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:42:47 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 13:43:28 geneven [~geneven@cpe-76-173-9-27.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:44:11 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:00:25 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-nqplizrfyzvjweif] has joined #lisp 14:02:53 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-139-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:03:10 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-84.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:40 -!- geneven [~geneven@cpe-76-173-9-27.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:59 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-84.netcologne.de] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 14:04:51 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-84.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:05:54 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-139-210.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:06:17 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-205-84.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:07:59 Good evening everyone! 14:08:33 hi beach 14:10:03 jeti [~user@p54B46F70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined 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15:27:09 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:59 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:29:59 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:30:23 rukowen [~thehien@123.20.2.40] has joined #lisp 15:30:33 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.197.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:30:34 -!- xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:30:55 carlocci [~nes@93.37.197.163] has joined #lisp 15:31:55 -!- mtk [~mtk@host251.diamondbackcap.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:31:59 ehu [~ehuels@109.32.183.216] has joined #lisp 15:32:01 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 15:32:56 mtk [~mtk@host251.diamondbackcap.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:28 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:34:09 *sigh* 15:34:10 -!- gz_ [Clozure@3BD94DC3.F5D4FCE2.5B28E76C.IP] has quit [Quit: gz_] 15:34:10 -!- gz_ [~gz@rrcs-208-125-251-170.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: gz_] 15:34:45 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:35:27 *beach* feels the ever-more-common combination of overworkedness and boredom. 15:37:11 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:37:42 pocket_ [~pocket_@p4252-ipbf3210hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:38:40 LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has joined #lisp 15:39:48 Maou [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has joined #lisp 15:40:36 beach: burnout can be deadly 15:40:55 -!- eldragon [~eldragon@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:40:58 dlowe: I don't think it is *that* serious. 15:41:16 ... but yeah, I have read about it. 15:41:21 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:33 oh, that didn't come across right. 15:41:48 I mean, I know that burnout is very bad, but I don't think I have it. 15:42:14 dlowe: "deadly" ? 15:42:23 maouDev [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has joined #lisp 15:42:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:43:03 -!- LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:43:18 heh. I've seen lives destroyed by it. 15:43:32 -!- maouDev [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:44:16 -!- Maou [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:45:42 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:46:23 dlowe: how ? 15:46:29 -!- longshot [~longshot@207.204.225.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:44 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:47:59 longshot [~longshot@207.204.225.81] has joined #lisp 15:48:25 tfb [~tfb@94.197.60.199.threembb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:49:21 hmm..does boredom really tie into overworkedness? I mean if one's overworked they shouldn't be really bored. 15:49:31 frustrated is the word I'd use. 15:49:47 -!- mtk [~mtk@host251.diamondbackcap.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:48 I'd say boredom definitely factors into it. 15:49:56 TDT: It's the effect of having way too much work, but none of it is interesting. 15:50:19 Oh, that kinda boredom...was thinking more along the way of just not sure what to do. 15:50:25 at least frustration gets one angry enough at the task to finish it after a short breather. 15:50:31 TDT: I wish... 15:50:35 I agree with you on that point then..my last job was definite burnout, hence why I quit 15:51:25 felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:40 beach: chào thy  15:52:08 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:12 chào em! 15:52:25 Xach: hey Xach, do you remember how to add l1sp.org as a Firefox search engine? seems like you have to download an add-on, but I don't recall doing that in the past. 15:52:25 em kho không? 15:53:30 felideon: I don't know, sorry. I use http://xach.com/clhs for firefox/chrome searches 15:53:33 rukowen: Did you see my latest comments? 15:53:35 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:53:38 beach: d em khe. Thanks thy. 15:54:01 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-99-17-203-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:43 I had a small conversation with Ms Anne yesterday 15:54:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:54:59 rukowen: Is that good or bad? :) 15:55:12 beach: she said that you're very good in Vietnamese 15:55:38 rukowen: Tell her thanks! But I am not sure she knows very much about my level! 15:56:05 We have just finished "Advanced Algorithm" 15:56:11 rukowen: I am making significant improvements though, and my two classes per week are what saves me from total boredom. 15:56:20 beach: so stress 15:56:20 rukowen: Who taught that? 15:56:30 rukowen: Nah, just too much crapwork. 15:57:08 beach: Ms Anne taught us Advanced algorithm 15:57:18 Ah, OK. 15:58:14 beach: now we have more time to concentrate on task 2 15:59:08 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59:39 Excellent! 16:00:50 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-217.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:01:16 Xach: ah, gotcha. thanks. 16:01:20 rukowen: vng and maus are comming to my house for dinner tomorrow. 16:01:20 newbie question, If I had a file of transactions that needed to be read in and "transformed" into another format before processing.. is this easy to do in Lisp? 16:01:35 edlinde: If you know Lisp, yes. 16:01:36 It would need some sort of pattern matching I would assume? 16:01:41 edlinde: Not necessarily. 16:02:01 edlinde: Lisp is pretty good at reading in data and transforming it. That's what it does with Lisp source code. 16:02:01 Xach: I don't at the moment ... but want to get there by practising stuff that I need to get done 16:02:10 ok cool 16:02:16 i do that kind of thing fairly regularly. 16:02:19 and what topics should I be looking at? 16:02:21 *Xach* also 16:02:23 streams? 16:02:43 split-sequence and fare-csv are useful, as is ppcre 16:02:46 beach: ah, I've never met them before 16:02:52 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:02:53 edlinde: input and output, maybe. read-line, read-sequence, and write-line, write-sequence, and more. 16:03:05 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:03:17 rukowen: I see. 16:03:18 so this has nothing to do with streams? 16:04:12 (with-open-file (streamvar filepath) (loop for line = (readline streamvar) while line ...) 16:04:46 -!- tfb [~tfb@94.197.60.199.threembb.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:04:58 is the common pattern 16:05:11 ok get you 16:05:16 with-open-file expands into an unwind-protect. 16:05:18 I have to now go read up on Macros 16:05:34 just got back from a lecture about the backquotes.. I think I am confused now :) 16:06:03 you should look at the relevant chapters in PCL. 16:06:09 might ask you guys later if I got more doubts about the syntax 16:06:22 I am reading chap 13.14 of gentle intro 16:06:26 have to complete that 16:07:34 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-99-124.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Disconnected by services] 16:08:06 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@202-173-169-138.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 16:09:00 what chapters in PCL talk about backquoting? 16:09:07 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-gbektgcfzcyosfpm] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:09:12 I looked at 7-8 and its not in the Macros part 16:10:11 back-quote suspends the evaluation of a form, ',' reinstates it for some subform or atom. 16:10:59 for that --> `(,x b) 16:11:11 is only 'x' evaluated? 16:11:15 and not the b? 16:11:37 (let ((x "wonderful")) ,x "person")) 16:11:51 => ("wonderful" "person") 16:11:52 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:11:52 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 16:12:05 hrmn, that was truncated. 16:12:08 Fade: Missing a (list ...) in there? 16:12:27 yeah. that was weird. 16:12:45 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:12:48 it still didn't answer my question 16:12:51 :( 16:12:54 (let ((x "wonderful")) `(,x "person")) 16:13:07 edlinde: That's correct, the b is not evaluated. 16:13:24 so to evaluate b I would need to put a , in front of the b too? 16:13:41 edlinde: Any expression not preceded by , inside ` is taken literally. 16:13:57 its just that when we say "," is re-instating the evaluator... then wouldn't it evaluate everything after the comma? 16:14:13 no 16:14:18 one comma per form. 16:14:29 edlinde: Sure the entire following expression. 16:14:47 ok 16:14:56 if the comma preceeds a list, then that entire list is eval'd 16:15:12 edlinde: so `(,(+ x 2) a) makes (+ x 2) evaluate. 16:15:15 ok makes sense now 16:15:19 -!- felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:15:25 right 16:15:36 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@145.120.22.35] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:16:18 ahh. '`' is my screen escape char. 16:16:37 Heh! 16:19:05 milanj [~milanj_@77-46-249-239.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:20:20 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 16:23:01 usually that works pretty well. :) 16:23:08 bug lurk everywhere. 16:23:15 *bugs 16:26:28 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:26:32 -!- boscop [~boscop@f055011212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:27:00 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-99-17-203-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:27:49 boscop [~boscop@f055152224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:27:54 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:29:16 LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has joined #lisp 16:29:59 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:09 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.159.86] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 16:30:24 -!- Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:30:28 Maou [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has joined #lisp 16:30:33 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:30:34 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:30:47 Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 16:30:59 -!- boscop [~boscop@f055152224.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:30:59 boscop_ [~boscop@f055023125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:16 -!- pocket_ [~pocket_@p4252-ipbf3210hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:41 -!- LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:34:02 LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has joined #lisp 16:34:43 -!- Maou [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:36:47 Maou [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has joined #lisp 16:38:17 -!- LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:38:28 LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has joined #lisp 16:41:19 -!- Maou [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:41:20 Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:29 -!- boscop_ is now known as boscop 16:43:35 -!- LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:44:07 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 16:46:03 syntard [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 16:46:10 ehlo 16:47:05 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-81-165.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:47:40 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 16:48:44 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-105.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 16:48:45 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-81-79.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:50:04 s0ng0ku [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:36 *Xach* looks around for a hemlock committer 16:52:03 sbcl's new strict policy about bad calls to standard functions (it's a full warning, not a style-warning) has made hemlock fail because of frob-environment-list's use of a form that reads as (list*) 16:52:09 Xach: you summoned me ? 16:52:16 in src/shell.lisp 16:54:18 lots of #+fixmes 16:54:49 slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-99-17-203-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:05 arrgh, gitorious is down 16:55:10 whoa. (list* x) == x?! 16:55:33 Xach: I'll try to commit when I get back home 16:55:55 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:56:22 sykopomp: does it surprise you that much? 16:56:29 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:57:01 it does. I guess I was thinking of list* as a magical CONS. 16:57:16 LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has joined #lisp 16:57:26 well, here you have your magic 16:57:46 kslt1 [~Sierka1@netblock-208-127-156-214.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 16:58:58 sykopomp: but what result would you expect? 17:00:02 #nginx is a cold crowd 17:00:21 those russians 17:01:07 stassats: not that I think list* is wrong. I would have originally expected (list* 1) equal (list 1), since I thought of list* as just taking two arguments at a time and consing them together. 17:01:25 with list* simply creating a regular (cons arg1 nil) when it only received one argument. 17:01:30 i just wanted to serve static content fast, and pass the rest to weblocks 17:01:48 but that was just my expectation based on not having read the CLHS entry. 17:01:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:01:55 syntard: This is not a good place to complain about other channels. 17:02:20 vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 17:02:24 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.137] has joined #lisp 17:02:32 Xach: i'm done 17:02:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.32.183.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:03:01 sykopomp: well, list* sets the last cdr of the constructed list to the last argument 17:03:15 and (x) will have nil as the last argument, which doesn't make much sense 17:03:20 as the last cdr 17:03:30 stassats: then why not (cons nil x)? :) 17:05:19 I would have just expected list* to always return a list of some form. 17:05:57 reb [~user@nat/google/x-hmsrplhzzfmotdzt] has joined #lisp 17:06:01 sykopomp: it makes more sense when X is a list, so you get it back when there is no other arguments 17:06:12 sykopomp: (append 1) => 1, too 17:06:51 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:19 still, I just expected list* to do at least some consing. 17:07:30 tcr1: I didn't know that one either! 17:07:44 e.g. in a macro you want to append several elements, something like: `(list* ,@(when (> 4 5) '(2 3 4)) '(5 6 7)) 17:08:15 stassats: that's an interesting use case, yeah! 17:08:20 the same with append 17:08:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:14:26 -!- Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:17:06 -!- benny [~benny@i577A25E5.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:00 -!- Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26:34 Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:59 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 17:27:26 shakshak [~user@41.239.199.239] has joined #lisp 17:27:40 -!- Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27:50 Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:02 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 17:28:03 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:28:14 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:29 -!- TDT [~user@5317-nat01.eng.uiowa.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:29:32 sykopomp: You definitely need to participate in SICL, where it becomes incredibly important to read every word of the CLHS in detail and think hard about what it means. It is a great exercise actually! 17:30:36 And not only that. One also needs to understand *why* they made a particular decision. That's an even more interesting excercise! 17:30:50 that's the more interesting bit, yes :) 17:32:04 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:32:52 silenius [~silenus@64.183.24.38] has joined #lisp 17:34:04 -!- Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:34:33 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:46 beach: what do you mean by *participate* ? 17:35:36 I want to implement some of cl someday 17:35:56 syntard: I can imagine several ways. For confirmed Lisp programmers, take a module and run with it. For most, contribute code that I will screen. For newbies, write tests. 17:36:20 ok, I'll check, when I'm awake 17:37:09 TDT [~user@dhcpw80ffc56f.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 17:37:21 -!- TDT [~user@dhcpw80ffc56f.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37:39 TDT [~user@dhcpw80ffc56f.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 17:38:14 felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:34 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:38:38 beach: i have a crazy idea of making p2p clients in javascript, for some reason lisp seems indispensable 17:39:01 -!- felideon [~felideon@173.221.53.122.nw.nuvox.net] has left #lisp 17:39:15 syntard: you should try sleeping, or seeing a doctor ;) 17:39:19 syntard: Lisp is indispensable for pretty much everything! 17:39:21 beach: do you have a mailing list for that project? 17:40:00 udzinari: Pretty sure I do. It's on cl.net, so the usual mailing lists should be operational: sicl-devel, sicl-announce, sicl-cvs. 17:40:28 beach: thanks 17:41:12 udzinari: Pleasure. There have been no commits for a few days because of what I explained in the scrollbacks. But I definitely intend to spend the weekend on it. 17:42:02 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 17:42:24 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 17:44:55 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-99-17-203-9.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:45:28 -!- marijnjh [~user@p5DDB3ACA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:45:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:46:48 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:46:49 *syntard* tries to decide from which end to read read-upcase-downcase-preserve-decimal 17:47:42 beaumonta [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 17:47:55 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-81-79.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:47:57 syntard: the reader case is either upcase, downcase, or preserve (but not invert), and the read-base is decimal. 17:48:00 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont_ 17:48:35 -!- zomgbie_ [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:48:42 beach: all right:) 17:48:56 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-17-136.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:49:02 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-105.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:49:31 luis` [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has joined #lisp 17:49:59 -!- luis` is now known as luis 17:50:18 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 17:50:39 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD9E27476.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:51:02 syntard: recently, I have been using a naming convention that might convert that name to |read readtable-case={upcase, downcase, preserve} read-base=10| 17:51:45 beach: would that auto-complete? 17:52:12 I haven't tried. If not, SLIME is not doing it's job :) 17:52:44 No, it'll be fine 17:52:49 It is not a name that will be used often enough to require auto-completion. 17:53:12 Great! 17:53:29 Adlai [~adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:54:14 *beach* goes to fix dinner and will be back later. 17:54:29 Hmm, this is interesting. I am trying a formula from class. The code I used is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116274 -- what I'm finding interesting about this is the convergence on .5 is not holding after so far. 17:56:42 TDT: cos dropped the ball 17:57:46 That's a good point, so the 1-1 is coming out as 0. 17:58:24 TDT: ratios are more robust 17:59:33 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:33 -!- Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:59:47 -!- Joreji [~thomas@89-001.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:59:57 Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 18:02:52 benny [~benny@i577A3A33.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:03:12 aifnord [~aifnord@79-133-4-112.bredband.aland.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:44 jdz [~jdz@host94-104-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:03:55 drdo [~user@194.210.228.29] has joined #lisp 18:05:33 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:11 -!- TDT [~user@dhcpw80ffc56f.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:19 leadnose_ [leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 18:11:39 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:19 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:12:50 what does the hyperspec have to say about non-standard kwargs for standard functions? 18:13:17 (for example, the :weakness arguments to some implementations' hash tables) 18:14:06 vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 18:15:29 -!- rukowen [~thehien@123.20.2.40] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:15:46 "An implementation which has been extended may still be a conforming implementation provided that no extension interferes with the correct function of any conforming program." 18:16:21 rukowen [~thehien@123.20.2.40] has joined #lisp 18:16:25 that's from the glossary entry for "conforming implementation". 18:16:59 gnooth: thanks 18:18:49 -!- LinGmnZ [~isra.wic@27.130.77.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:19:54 -!- phrixos [~miar1@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:20:07 -!- longshot [~longshot@207.204.225.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:20:23 phrixos [~miar1@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:20:40 -!- boscop [~boscop@f055023125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: OutOfTimeException: Allocation of TimeFrame failed due to lack of time. 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It should return 3 everywhere. If your extensions make it return a cons, you fail. 19:40:13 Said otherwise, you may add keyword arguments only to functions that already have &allow-other-keys. 19:40:19 pjb: all your examples begin with handler-case :) 19:41:43 pjb: i tried it in ccl, i got extra arguments error 19:43:02 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:43:58 which is correct 19:44:35 Hun [~hun@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:44:50 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:46:36 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-179.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48:49 dborba [~dborba@c-71-62-159-244.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:53:57 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:34 -!- Hun [~hun@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:58:36 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 20:00:56 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-80-175.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:01:50 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-17-136.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:03:25 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-179.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 20:04:18 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:04:39 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:06:24 shakshak` [~user@41.238.33.81] has joined #lisp 20:06:34 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:03 -!- shakshak [~user@41.239.199.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:09:29 -!- jdz [~jdz@host94-104-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:09:54 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:10:27 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:10 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 20:11:26 -!- s0ng0ku [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:13:00 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-179.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:13:35 askatasuna [~askatasun@host230.190-3-1.static.telmex.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:16:13 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:37 mtk [~mtk@host251.diamondbackcap.com] has joined #lisp 20:18:39 GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:13 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 20:19:13 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 20:19:13 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 20:20:59 Hun [~hun@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:21:29 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:49 -!- Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:38 -!- nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:24:25 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217131002.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:28:16 -!- aDuck [~aduck@bl9-174-81.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:28:52 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:30:56 -!- mtk [~mtk@host251.diamondbackcap.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:57 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.137] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 20:31:28 what's a simple, lispy way to check if a character is present in a string? 20:31:55 clhs: find 20:31:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm 20:32:09 thanks! 20:32:37 np 20:33:08 if you want it case-insensitive you can set :test to be 'string-equal 20:33:51 so i could do something like.. 20:34:50 clhs position 20:34:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pos_p.htm 20:34:56 this may be more useful, depending on what you're doing. 20:35:15 *hefner* would use char-equal instead of string-equal 20:35:22 (notany ((dolist (length string) string) (string-equal test-char string) 20:35:24 ? 20:35:38 err, dotimes 20:35:49 what are you trying to do? 20:35:54 yikes 20:35:55 in English. 20:36:03 minion: tell osoleve about gentle 20:36:03 osoleve: have a look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 20:36:24 okay, sorry, got distracted 20:36:47 i'm taking a user-inputted character, and testing it against a string to ensure it isn't there 20:36:57 (making hangman) 20:37:14 did you even try to enter the form you just pasted at the REPL? 20:37:31 i was asking conceptually, i know i didn't match all of the parens and such 20:38:48 use the repl, it's insulting to expect the users of this channel to try and figure out what you mean from a bunch of code in a made-up language. 20:39:18 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-44-124.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:20 nha [~prefect@250-194.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 20:39:42 drewc: Well put! 20:39:48 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:11 Hi all, was wondering if the PCL book is available as a downloadable PDF? 20:40:16 *syntard* has a repl in his head 20:40:42 edlinde: I suggest you just buy it. 20:40:47 mtk [~mtk@host251.diamondbackcap.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:52 really? 20:40:54 i'm sorry, i'm ignorant as to the ettiquette 20:40:59 I am kinda broke at the moment :) 20:41:14 edlinde: it's worth it. 20:41:19 -!- Hun [~hun@95-89-69-55-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:27 I bought the book as a broke-ass college student. No regrets. 20:41:29 why is this book so highly talked about in this channel? 20:41:31 ;) 20:41:41 edlinde: you'd rather have PDF than the HTML that's already available? 20:41:42 I mean there seem to be a lot of Lisp books out there 20:41:44 the binding is all loose at this point from overuse. 20:41:46 osoleve: this is not #teach-me-lisp. the ettiquette is to learn as much as you can independantly, and come here when you're stuck on something. 20:41:48 hefner: yes 20:42:49 Does the PCL book use more modern syntax? 20:43:06 edlinde: More modern than what? 20:43:27 well seems like every lisp person I know recommends million different things 20:43:31 is there a lisp channel where they are more receptive to syntactical questions? 20:43:32 edlinde: One reason is that the author hangs out here, goes to the major conferences and meets with people who also come here, and generally is very helpful. 20:43:34 more modern like m-expressions? 20:43:44 ah ok I see 20:43:56 there really is a #teach-me-lisp 20:44:12 oh, wow. 20:44:14 oh 20:44:16 osoleve: What kind of "syntactical questions" are you referring to? 20:44:28 osoleve: the syntax of lisp is very simple.. if you need to ask syntax questions, you haven't read your lisp text closely enough! 20:44:30 just... when i'm programming,and the documentation isn't clear to me 20:44:59 i'm an enthusiastic noob. 20:45:12 osoleve: Just ask! The answer might be to go read the CLHS or one of the books. 20:45:30 i have two lisp books :3 20:45:37 Good for you. 20:45:46 osoleve: read them, try the example code, use your REPL 20:46:10 Steven_ [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:46:11 vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 20:46:37 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:47:14 -!- thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:47:29 ah was going to say - is there some sort of site where you can find lisp modules to re-use? 20:47:29 Having Emacs split horizontally with a REPL on the left and a text file on the right is the most fun I can imagine. :P 20:47:42 or macros that others have written and optimised? 20:47:57 *syntard* has repl on the right 20:48:09 Heretic! 20:48:12 :) 20:48:25 edlinde: browse through alexandria 20:48:38 fusss [~chatzilla@CPE-65-31-225-242.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:39 franki^: Really only works if you can get a full line of text on one side without wrapping. 20:48:57 *GrayMagiker* Is silly and uses two separate windows from the same emacs instance (ie like from using C-x-5-2) 20:49:19 edlinde: quicklisp is a library distribution. Please note that the word 'modules' has some standardized meaning in CL, and are just standard enough to be completely useless. We usually talk of 'systems' or 'libraries' 20:49:37 drewc: ok 20:49:45 minion: quicklisp? 20:49:46 quicklisp: Quicklisp aims to make it easy to get started with a rich set of community-developed Common Lisp libraries. http://www.cliki.net/quicklisp 20:49:53 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-72-251.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:49:59 nyef: I have a 15.4" widescreen laptop, that fits more than the 80 character lines I use. I'm not sure what a "full line" is. 20:50:02 -!- Steven_ is now known as SDSDS 20:50:11 That'd do it. 20:50:28 It seems like the newbies are getting more annoying and less competent every year. Sad that! 20:50:30 so do most of you guys here work with Common Lisp at jobs? 20:50:33 I was only able to do the side-by-side thing once I moved to the panel on my G5. 20:50:40 or is this more like a thing on the side? 20:50:42 Now, you have to teach them to read and use Google. 20:51:05 I just wonder how I keep up with Common Lisp after my course is done, need to use it here and there :) 20:51:29 #teach-me-lisp is like dead. 20:51:31 bah 20:51:49 -!- SDSDS is now known as sdsds 20:51:55 Whatever happened to grabbing a good book and programming for a couple of decades, and *then* ask questions? 20:52:07 beach: the internet :) 20:52:32 :( i learn best by asking questions, i'm sorry 20:52:35 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:52:42 i really don't mean to be a pest 20:52:53 heh, i thought i made up #teach-me-lisp 20:53:27 edlinde: to be concrete, your best chance to use Common Lisp in your professionnal life, is to have your ownstart-up company and impose it. 20:53:28 i just haven't been this excited about programming since i first started 20:53:31 I think you did, drewc but then some of us had to check. 20:53:32 lisp rekindled the passion 20:53:33 osoleve: It's OK to ask questions. It is not OK not to follow advice as a result of those questions. 20:53:48 edlinde: develop a product, and a few years later be bought by Google or Yahoo for a few billions. 20:53:50 choas [~lars@p5792CC6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:51 -!- mtk [~mtk@host251.diamondbackcap.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:54:25 Then you could finance a system like Ubuntu, but written in CL instead of C. 20:54:49 pjb: I work in a research role, so I get to choose my language ... which is great. I noticed that a lot of the old AI stuff here is written in lisp 20:54:50 (without forgetting getting on orbit for your holidays). 20:55:09 Yes, I noticed too :-) Few people seem to. 20:55:22 Yeah its pretty powerful stuff... 20:55:34 At the moment I am also doing Haskell and Erlang and ML 20:55:45 they have some pretty good things too going on for them 20:55:58 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:56:17 That said, in academia, I often hear complains from people being overloaded with non-interesting tasks, and not able to do much lisp programming too. 20:56:25 GrayMagiker: ahh, that makes sense lol :) 20:57:18 pjb: ah depends really.. I was chatting to a research group today where this prof has been using Lisp for god knows how long and he has built a whole system in Lisp and his students contribute writing "foreign functions" in java and Python 20:57:53 and apparently the current generation of students don't want to spend any time learning a language like Lisp when there are so many newer ones around... 20:57:55 edlinde: I would fail those students :) 20:58:01 hehe 20:58:28 I didn't know you could have foreign fns in Lisp... think its pretty cool that its extendible 20:58:36 edlinde: Confusing "new" and "good" seems to be a characteristic of the young generation. 20:58:41 i'm a current-generation student :/ 20:59:16 today in the lectures got introduced to Lisp Macros 20:59:24 looks pretty wicked... but looks hard to write 20:59:29 well atleast in the start I would say 20:59:30 :) 20:59:42 man, this conversation has been going on all day. 20:59:55 or was that somebody else asking about macros earlier? 21:00:09 Fade: nah it was me.... I am still reading up on them :) 21:00:11 hehe 21:00:18 Fade: you don't like to talk about them huh? 21:00:19 Fade: Oh, sorry! I wasn't aware of that! I'll keep quiet! 21:00:27 hah 21:00:30 have at it. 21:00:47 Though with lisp everyone you talk to has such extreme opinions 21:00:50 I went away for a couple of hours, and had the weirest sense of time dilation when I sat back down and looked at my terminal. 21:00:56 ones like.. Oh never ever use macros 21:00:58 write functions 21:01:05 GrayMagiker: thanks for the tip, I have two monitors at work 21:01:10 the other prof is like.. if you don't write macros you are crap 21:01:11 *sigh* 21:01:11 *weirdest. 21:01:36 edlinde: macros are always harder to debug, regardless of other considerations 21:01:41 syntard: np. I like it because you can have multiple source files open at once linked to the same REPL 21:01:56 dlowe: yeah that was one of the arguments AGAINST writing macros 21:02:03 *beach* lets others sort out this mess and goes to bed. 21:02:16 ok I am off to read some more 21:02:18 nice chatting 21:02:19 :) 21:02:20 edlinde: but it's a fight that's lasted longer than most lisp programmers 21:02:29 yeah I can imagine 21:02:32 edlinde: so don't think you'll find the resolution here 21:02:55 this prof told me that there was this fight about whether to use Lisp or Prolog and the fight lasted 10 yrs! 21:03:01 :) 21:03:16 -!- djino [~djino__@91.218.156.245] has left #lisp 21:03:34 How do I escape spaces in emacs strings? 21:03:40 -!- Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:05:06 *syntard* tries to load a file with spaces in path name 21:06:17 Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:59 no need to I don't think, syntard: (load "~/tmp/path with spaces.lisp") works fine for me. 21:07:53 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:09:09 "never ever use macros, write functions" is also my advice, for certain values of NEVER 21:09:39 dfkjjkfd [~paulh@181-15-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has joined #lisp 21:09:46 what is the PCL author's chat handle in this channel? Can someone please tell me? 21:09:47 I use macros to write functions 21:10:05 like (defcommand (player "get" object "from" object) ...) 21:10:32 I was told that Lisp's higher order functions can do away with the need for a lot of macros 21:10:46 i suppose there are lots of choices available 21:10:55 btw who is the author of PCL? 21:10:56 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11:12 drewc: but what about writing macros that write macros meant to write macros?! 21:12:34 sykopomp: nasty things... i replaced mine with a monad! :P 21:13:03 drewc: $vau is pretty good at that, btw! 21:13:10 ;) 21:13:37 yeah, i don't think i'd call the objects returned by $vau "macros", because thet are most certainly not :) 21:14:44 drewc: well, no, but they can replace macros! 21:14:51 and special operators! 21:15:06 "Yeah, pardon me, let me just assign $if to this other variable here and apply it!" 21:15:59 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:16:32 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-27.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 21:18:12 vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 21:19:25 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@host230.190-3-1.static.telmex.net.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 21:20:49 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:21:31 what is "ppmx"? 21:21:41 I couldn't find it in slime for macro expansion 21:21:43 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:21:56 is there an equivalent I can use in Slime? 21:22:29 pretty print macro expansion : http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Lisp/ppmx.lisp 21:22:51 and in slime use C-c RET 21:23:56 can i not just say "macroexpand-1"? 21:24:52 try it and see! 21:25:27 yeah it works 21:25:36 thanks drewc 21:26:47 ih another thing sorry 21:26:53 when should I be using a gensym? 21:27:08 I didn't quite understand the need for an "internal symbol" 21:28:07 edlinde: have you read http://gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html > "Plugging the Leaks" ? 21:29:27 nope but I will do it 21:29:32 thanks for the tip 21:29:33 :) 21:30:08 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:52 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:33:03 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:33:27 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 21:34:27 -!- kmwallio [~kmwallio@host113-70.brownlie.fit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:28 -!- H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E309.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:39:34 H4ns` [~user@pD4B9E309.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:38 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:39:44 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 21:43:53 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 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[~user@adsl-76-254-22-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:55 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-52-82-65-119-197.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:37 Xach: done 22:28:19 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:30:05 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:31:20 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:32:03 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:32:36 -!- GrayMagiker [~steve@c-174-56-26-27.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:33:31 fe[nl]ix: hooray 22:33:37 -!- boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:35:02 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-137-39.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:36:48 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:37:35 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:40:51 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@91.139.198.56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:42:15 boysetsfrog [~nathan@123-243-214-176.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:42:59 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:22 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.197.163] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 22:44:28 adu [~ajr@pool-74-96-89-94.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:03 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:21 is there an analog to numberp that checks for characters 22:47:22 ? 22:47:58 osoleve: three guesses 22:48:03 osoleve: first one doesn't count 22:48:18 googling charp did me no good :( 22:48:32 osoleve: if numberp is for numbers, what might be for characters? 22:48:43 characterp? 22:49:37 http://l1sp.org/cl/characterp 22:50:04 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:07 yup, just found it, thanks 22:50:11 also, don't use google. use the index of the hyperspec. the permuted index is quite nice too. 22:50:50 so if i want to fill an array with underscores, i should use :initial-element #\_, not '_? 22:51:07 if i i don't want to freak out characterp, that is 22:53:00 '_ evaluates to the symbol _. 22:53:07 It's not a character. 22:53:09 okay, thanks 22:53:26 clhs fill-array 22:53:26 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for fill-array. 22:53:37 clhs fill-sequence 22:53:37 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for fill-sequence. 22:53:42 Urggggg 22:53:48 What was it already. 22:53:53 hexstream I can also just initialize the array with :initial-element set 22:54:00 Yes. 22:54:10 clhs fill 22:54:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fill.htm 22:54:15 D'oh! 22:54:17 there ^ 22:54:18 clhs fillawway 22:54:18 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for fillawway. 22:54:27 clhs fillarray 22:54:27 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for fillarray. 22:54:30 hrm 22:55:43 if i supply dolist with a function that returns a predicate, will dolist return a predicate? 22:56:00 and if so, how do i and the predicate functions together within a dotimes? 22:56:23 wait nevermind, i'm trying another approach 23:00:24 unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 23:00:50 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-025-078.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:01:40 clhs char-equal 23:01:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chareq.htm 23:05:44 osoleve: You can get directly at the definition of a symbol in the HyperSpec from Slime. Use C-c C-d h (slime-documentation-lookup) 23:06:08 Hexstream: I haven't gotten slime working yet :( 23:06:19 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:28 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:32 Oh. There's also http://l1sp.org/cl/symbol-you-want 23:07:30 Xach: The page from that link is not very helpful. Seems to me it should show the search box. 23:07:53 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has quit [Quit: superflit] 23:08:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:08:44 Or rather, redirect to http://l1sp.org/html/ with the error message. 23:09:09 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:09:09 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 23:09:09 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 23:09:22 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:10:24 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:03 -!- Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:57 Efthymios [~efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:02 -!- vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:12:23 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:13:42 Is Paul Graham's "On Lisp" a god book? 23:13:45 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 23:13:46 *good 23:13:51 has anyone here read it? 23:14:27 I read it back in the day... I don't like PG's lisp style all that much ;P 23:14:51 Hexstream: why is that? 23:15:01 is it old school? or not performing well? 23:15:12 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 23:15:29 I don't remember exactly. One of the things is that he loves DO/DO*. 23:15:36 vroufe [~omx@ppp95-165-16-181.pppoe.spdop.ru] has joined #lisp 23:15:45 hmm 23:15:57 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:02 is there a dolist for strings? 23:16:06 And I'm not sure if that affected On Lisp exactly but he has some obsession with "brevity". 23:16:17 hat about Shapiro's book? 23:16:24 (loop for character across my-string do stuff) 23:16:33 thanks 23:17:02 does that return a predicate? 23:17:07 Or (map nil (lambda (my-char) stuff) my-string) 23:17:09 Common Lisp :an interactive approach 23:17:21 What do you mean? 23:17:44 A predicate is a function that returns true or false. 23:17:57 I don't know why loop would return a predicate. 23:18:02 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@CPE-65-31-225-242.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:18:03 does it return a true or fale value* 23:18:18 No... Why would it? 23:18:25 What would the semantics of that value be? 23:18:33 so i can place it in a notany 23:18:41 and have it evaluate a list 23:18:46 and have it act as a big and? 23:19:20 notany takes a sequence. 23:19:25 osoleve: (loop for character across my-string do stuff finally (return (function evenp))) returns a predicate. 23:19:28 A string is an array. 23:19:31 An array is a sequence. 23:19:37 Hence, you can pass a string to notany. 23:19:45 osoleve: (loop for character across my-string do stuff finally (return t)) returns true or false. 23:21:39 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 23:21:56 There aren't a lot of functions which operate on strings specifically. But a lot of them operate on arrays and sequences. 23:22:19 ok 23:22:29 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-215-231.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 23:22:46 edlinde: One reason to not like PG's style is that PG is on record as having said that he doesn't like Common Lisp. 23:22:58 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:23:09 nyef: didn't know that... what does he like then? 23:23:24 Presumably, Arc, which he made. 23:23:44 I totally hate it because I think his heavy focus on brevity is misguided at best ;P 23:24:01 (not that I tried it, but I saw a few examples) 23:25:56 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:27:05 nyef: Is it CLOS that he doesn't like, I believe? 23:31:25 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:32:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:33:01 For a while, he didn't even like keyword arguments. 23:33:25 nyef: really ? 23:33:26 Ugh. Talk about controversial... 23:33:31 (That's actually covered in one of his early essays about viaweb.) 23:33:40 wow 23:34:09 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:34:50 http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/bbnexcerpts.txt (search for "keyword"). 23:36:01 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 23:36:20 -!- christoph_debian [christoph@cl-1281.dus-01.de.sixxs.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:36:33 thom_logn [~thom@pool-74-100-140-188.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:26 Oh, I had misunderstood that as something like: "For a while, he didn't even like keyword arguments with the key being in the keyword package." 23:41:52 Not liking keyword arguments themselves, is, of course, much more disturbing. 23:42:21 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 23:42:28 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-34-131.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 23:44:08 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:44:16 christoph_debian [christoph@sf-ogame.de] has joined #lisp 23:48:53 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:49:05 Could you please see what's wrong with my macro. http://paste.lisp.org/+2HQ9 23:52:12 clhs concatenate 23:52:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm 23:52:40 Concatenate takes sequences as arguments. Symbols are not sequences. 23:53:34 Might be amusing if concatenate took sequence designators as arguments, and followed the logic of a symbol being a string designator... 23:54:12 nyef: I was thinking that too... But you can just wrap any symbols in #'string... 23:54:52 prljavi_hari: (&key (top nil top-p) (left nil left-p) (bottom nil bottom-p) (right nil right-p)) 23:55:02 Then I need to convert an argument to string ? 23:55:05 Then you could get rid of that LET. 23:55:32 (symbol-name :top) ==> "TOP" 23:55:43 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:56:02 but I need the value 23:56:14 -!- choas [~lars@p5792CC6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:58:34 I ddn't understand how can I get rid of LET ?