00:00:32 antifuchs: and I are actually agreeing. 00:00:39 indeed (: 00:00:47 humasect: I'm guessing it is game related. 00:00:54 We have to. We're neighbors now. 00:01:03 Speaking of which, maybe beers this weekend, antifuchs? 00:01:28 great question! I'm waiting for my friends in Santa Cruz to get back to me. they invited me to stay at their house this weekend (: 00:01:54 if that comes back positive, maybe some evening during the week? 00:02:13 Perhaps. Evenings are harder since that means leaving my wife to put the kids to bed by herself. 00:02:20 oh, right 00:02:28 schmrkc: hmm=) 00:02:44 we'll figure something out, I'm sure. I hope to hear from them in the next two days, let you know (: 00:03:11 good 00:05:00 -!- kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: kjbrock] 00:06:13 Fare: sure. 00:06:17 back later 00:07:26 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:07:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116184 00:08:32 <`3b`> syntard: looks right 00:08:51 Why can function find symbol, and simple pass no? 00:09:05 syntard: function is special. 00:09:39 Xach: this takes on more and more meaning for me 00:09:43 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:10 FLET augments the function namespace; LET augments the variable namespace. FUNCTION looks up names in the function namespace. 00:10:47 *rme* waves his hands around 00:10:55 rme: of course 00:10:58 function is a special operator. it's one of the building blocks for other operators. 00:11:27 cool 00:11:30 as such, it can do things that functions and macros can't. 00:11:45 (well, some special operators can be written as macros, details) 00:11:56 so yeah, function is special (: 00:15:01 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has quit [Quit: superflit] 00:15:45 -!- Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:02 is there an example somewhere of "minimal" set of primitives on which one can build the rest? I know that there's no *single* set of those (or at least haven't heard of one). 00:16:40 *syntard* please, me too 00:17:44 you making some arc? 00:18:38 schmrkc: no 00:19:22 p_l|home: i'd start with the special operators 00:19:41 but I encountered some interest in a bytecode *only* CL implementation suitable for embedding (so no mprotect(), signal() etc. required for working), that wouldn't be saddled with GPL 00:20:14 embedding a CL? yikes. 00:21:21 schmrkc: or working with any C library that doesn't handle signals in a hygienic way 00:21:53 sounds like good fun :) 00:22:25 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-165-44.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:22:25 sinanimam [~sinancan@78.168.236.188] has joined #lisp 00:22:59 technically, proper signal handling would be much easier if we had structured conditions in Unix, but they were considered too complex 00:25:30 what are you embedding onī? 00:26:38 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-190.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:27:18 schmrkc: in general, but I was definitely considering running the result on several unices, Win32/64 and possibly some mobile platforms 00:27:59 yikes 00:28:15 schmrkc: I considered it more of a cool project to learn some stuff on :) 00:29:08 guille_ [~user@83.46.40.216] has joined #lisp 00:30:58 -!- sinanimam [~sinancan@78.168.236.188] has left #lisp 00:32:00 I like those projects 00:32:25 -!- guille_` [~user@li139-66.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:32:44 why doesn't have #-t the same effect as #+nil? 00:33:04 -!- wuj [~wuj@pool-74-108-204-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:34:01 jeti: t and nil are not opposites in feature expressions. 00:34:42 #-t reads the following form if :T is not in *FEATURES*, #+nil reads the following form if :NIL is in *FEATURES*. 00:35:11 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:27 ah thanks 00:35:32 are there generalized variable analogues in other languages? 00:36:32 generalized variable? 00:36:53 setf 00:37:11 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node80.html 00:37:29 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_a.htm is the updated thing. 00:37:54 syntard: generalized form of what is available in SETF afaik isn't part of CL standard itself, however at least few implementations had it (most prominent being ZetaLisp "locatives") 00:38:08 looks like "places" 00:38:28 ahh 00:38:42 C/C++ and others that allow direct pointer arithmetic without fuss allow basically the same thing, but without security etc. 00:38:54 I read cltl2 first as sort of intro before clhs 00:39:06 there's probably a way to express this in Haskell as well, I bet. 00:39:59 (well, GHC, not Haskell 98 probably) 00:40:33 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-11-193.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:43:17 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.228.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:43:46 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-70-172.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:45:39 -!- guille_ [~user@83.46.40.216] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:55 schmrkc: my personal goals regarding the bytecode interpreter is to fit both interpreter and GC into less than 32kB of native code 00:47:08 (on x86-64) 00:47:57 that's very small 00:47:58 :) 00:48:23 schmrkc: that also fits into L1c cache on most modern CPUs :) 00:49:01 jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:20 (well, on desktop at least - ARMs tend to have 4-8 kB L1c, it seems) 00:50:05 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 00:51:19 and 8 pages of code isn't much and would probably live in L2 from which blitting it back to L1c is *very* short 00:51:32 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:00 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:17 -!- xan_ [~xan@c-98-210-193-9.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:54:27 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:18 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-128-42-152-98.rice.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:55:42 before i implement a lot of code to do this, is there a simple way to 'repeat' expressions based on whether or not a first element is a list? i.e. (a b c) -> (a b c), but ((a1 a2) b c) -> ((a1 b c) (a2 b c)) 00:56:02 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:57:06 (loop for car in (listify (first list)) collect (list* car (rest list)))? 00:57:19 well, (cons car (rest list)) 00:57:41 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483CDE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:57:46 listify being (defun listify (thing) (if (atom thing) thing (list thing))) 00:57:50 errrr 00:57:57 other way around. or consp. you get the idea. 00:58:24 *syntard* got it! 00:59:24 Xach: hm so there's no built in way.. i have a recursive way that makes more sense to me so i think i'll stick to that for now 00:59:30 i'm not a fan of loop, as a new lisper 00:59:47 Gee, what a useful prejudice to start with. 00:59:58 to not be a fan of loop? 01:00:21 plediii [~plediii@nat-128-42-154-239.rice.edu] has joined #lisp 01:01:13 (mapcar 'cons (listify (first list)) (circularize (list (rest list)))) 01:01:16 xan_ [~xan@adsl-71-141-103-129.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:23 with circularize being the next exercise in question. 01:03:18 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 01:04:01 (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (cons x (rest list)) (listify (first list))) 01:04:14 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 01:04:46 but that would create one tail for several lists? 01:07:39 grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:01 syntard: there have been some modernization 25 years ago. They standarized on making LAMBDA a macro that expands to (function (lambda ...)) so you don't need to put #' in front of the lambda list. 01:08:29 pjb: thanks :) 01:08:37 syntard: otherwise, yes, that would share the tail. 01:08:55 If you adopt the functionnal paradigm, this is good. 01:09:11 LiamH [~nobody@pool-72-75-123-16.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:09:31 yan_: How come you are not a fan of loop, as a new lisper ? 01:09:32 If you don't modify the lists or their contents, you don't have to make copies (so your programs become more efficient). 01:09:55 schmrkc: it's jsut foregin to me for now.. right now i want just want to author caveman lisp that i can understand a few hours after i wrote it 01:10:03 and i understand lisp reads well, but it just doesn't "feel" clean for now 01:11:54 wow 01:12:07 *understand loop reads well 01:12:18 I have never in my life written code I can understand a few hours later. I just put comments so stuff makes sense to me :) 01:12:53 felideon [~felideon@adsl-32-226-199.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:54 -!- Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-57-3.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:14:16 -!- jeti [~user@p548EAA58.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:14:27 -!- xan_ [~xan@adsl-71-141-103-129.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:14:39 *p_l|home* decides that he really, really hates LAMP combo 01:14:57 Why? 01:16:32 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:18:47 katofiad: combination of mod_rewrite, PHP, and ErrorDocument declarations which makes my head asplode 01:18:59 mmmm.. assplosion 01:19:16 Configuration is the most fun part! 01:19:24 _danb_ [~user@124-149-55-13.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:19:58 katofiad: thank you, I'd prefer to handle it internally in the application 01:20:11 felideon` [~felideon@adsl-64-126-17.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:24 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-32-226-199.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:20:28 -!- felideon` is now known as felideon 01:21:41 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 01:22:34 and then I have the craziness of writing web code in Java (Java, not "JVM")... 01:22:47 felideon` [~felideon@adsl-32-178-187.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:01 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-126-17.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:23:04 -!- felideon` is now known as felideon 01:23:29 To be fair I think very few people actually write code directly to the JVM 01:23:47 "JVM" implying bytecode 01:24:12 *`3b`* wonders which would be worse out of java and raw jvm bytecode 01:24:28 There are probably JVM assemblers out there. 01:24:55 *grumps* sighs over the further delay of (re)adding closures to java 01:24:58 yan_: Iterate is a more lispy alternative to loop... 01:25:17 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-57-3.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:25:20 grumps, it is a shame 01:25:33 Gurther: its pathetic, really 01:25:43 but when/if they do add them the syntax will be dreadful 01:25:53 oh, it'll be atrocious 01:26:02 -!- SCVirus [~B234651@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:26:08 that's what "special" syntax gets you 01:26:12 Guthur: I'm trying to convince people to let me at least use JRuby for some parts, so instead of investigating crazy havyweight frameworks I can drop in a small, Sinatra-based web service in 01:26:55 *grumps* has never been able to appreciate ruby 01:28:27 grumps: in this case it's simply a matter of Sinatra being probably the simplest environment that might be understood by more than one person on the programming team, making it possible to easily write all of the web service in single file that would interact with whatever craziness they make in Java 01:28:39 I'm having to become a C# programmer now at work 01:29:10 with a sprinkling of java 01:29:16 Guthur: at least it's not java 01:29:23 p_l|home: right tool for the job - no complaints there 01:29:25 ouch 01:29:36 yeah very little java 01:29:45 but the application is a royal mess 01:29:52 i've been surprised at how little complaints i've heard from any java developer that's been forced into c# 01:30:01 I dived into the source code today for the first time 01:30:02 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-32-178-187.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:30:08 and just about got out alive, hehe 01:30:13 grumps: the thing is, project leader wants everything done in Java, while my previous experience suggests that we will have "language barrier" anyway 01:30:34 big company PHB style? 01:30:40 (JavaScript, quite possibly PL/PgSQL) 01:30:41 felideon [~felideon@adsl-64-127-69.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:16 i'm still trying to weasel cl into my project ;) 01:31:39 slow & steady... 01:31:48 xan_ [~xan@adsl-71-141-103-129.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:54 Guthur: C# ? Can't you just do it in F# ? 01:32:04 grumps: given that I'd be the *only* person that knows CL in the team, it's pretty unlikely 01:32:30 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.57.79] has joined #lisp 01:32:40 *grumps* feels p_l's pain 01:32:46 schmrkc, The application already exists, though it does need rewritten 01:33:02 and even the business agree with that 01:33:41 Guthur: I'm not very familiar with the world of C#, but I'd think calling F# from C# and viceversa should be extremely easy. so just slowly rewrite it in sanity :) 01:33:54 (sanity being the functional choice there) 01:34:16 schmrkc, the CLR means you can indeed mix C# and F# very easily 01:34:52 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 01:34:52 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-194-233.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:35:25 woho 01:36:23 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:36:27 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-57-3.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 01:37:11 -!- Tristam 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[~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:13:31 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-212-28.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 03:14:53 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-74-79-98-80.twcny.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 03:21:40 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-212-28.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:31 -!- xan_ [~xan@adsl-71-141-103-129.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:31:51 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:47 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mixyfzeseexzyiun] has joined #lisp 03:35:08 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:34 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:41:31 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.228.254] has joined #lisp 03:41:47 What's a shortcut to selected text in emacs? 03:41:51 copy 03:42:09 M-w 03:42:25 superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:41 It's not called copy, but kill-ring-save. 03:43:05 can i mix 'if' and 'append' inside a (loop ...)? i.e. something like: (loop for el in lst if (listp el) append el else append (list el a b)) 03:43:19 yes. 03:43:49 It doesn't look like lisp, does it? 03:43:51 pjb: thanks, that's hilarious 03:44:09 well loop doesn't.. 03:45:33 yan_: you can also (loop ... append (if (listp el) el (list el a b)) ...) 03:45:49 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:46:29 -!- andares [~andares@weldorm-pat.netcom.duke.edu] has quit [Changing host] 03:46:29 andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined #lisp 03:46:31 -!- andares is now known as not_andares 03:50:26 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.228.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:51:01 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:23 is it a good idea to put tests in eval-when ct? 03:52:29 felideon` [~felideon@adsl-64-126-133.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:19 -!- felideon [~felideon@adsl-32-220-193.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:55:14 oh I remember, if I ask, then answer is no 03:56:17 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:01:40 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-ljftkxgfnbwoicug] has joined #lisp 04:04:55 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.228.254] has joined #lisp 04:06:19 syntard: sooner or later, it will be better to put tests in separate files. 04:06:36 You could have two asd systems, one loading the code, and the other loading and running the tests. 04:07:48 pjb: all right 04:08:48 Good morning everyone! 04:11:26 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:11:27 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 04:11:32 -!- felideon` [~felideon@adsl-64-126-133.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:13:01 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:54 *syntard* waves weakly 04:15:57 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:19:02 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-mixyfzeseexzyiun] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:24:02 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:26:33 xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has joined #lisp 04:27:50 sabalabas [~sabalaba@219.237.160.89] has joined #lisp 04:28:04 -!- sabalabas [~sabalaba@219.237.160.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:28:26 morning beach 04:29:00 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kfkjktbkjsvhazny] has joined #lisp 04:29:11 dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:16 dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:10 i am learning CLOS now and i don't have oop experience, so i don't know if my question is directly CLOS related or more of a oop related one. what i understood is that we create hierarchy of classifications of the objects we want to represent and provide methods for them, all the example i have been able to find is like "we want to represent a window so we create a window class and create subclasses like foo-window bar-window" 04:31:36 but the classifications are usually made 'according to some critereas' 04:32:17 sure 04:32:36 and usually there are multiple critereas to classify an object, so i guess we create classifications for different critereas and use multiple-inheritence while creating subclasses, right? 04:32:38 kenanb: This strikes at the difference between 'type' and 'class'. 04:32:39 you make classes related to what you need and how you think of your code. 04:32:51 kenanb: Classes are about "how things are implemented". 04:33:02 kenanb: In CLOS, the class hierarchy doesn't necessarily reflect the OOP design, which is instead reflected in what we call protocols. The class hierarchy has more to do with code factoring. 04:33:06 kenanb: Types are about "these things satisfy some criteria". 04:33:46 If your window subclasses want to reuse the window implementation with some customization, then making them subclasses is a good idea. 04:38:53 hmm, :) sorry, i am reading all the sentences multiple times to make sure i understand. 04:40:05 OOP is clos is mainly about generic functions operating on classes. 04:40:23 This is probably the most confusing part to understand. 04:40:42 Zhivago: Or rather operating on "types" (not in the CL meaning of types, though). 04:41:55 Why's this confusing? 04:42:26 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 04:45:22 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:45:57 for example, if i want to represent some creatures with their "stamina, power and speed" and provide some generic functions that their methods that will act differently according to these properties (like it will walk if low stamina creature and run if high stamina) etc. should i create classes and subclasses to represent these features and define specific creatures which inherit from multiple classes (like one from a stamina class one from a power class) or sh 04:46:42 -!- az [~az@p4FE4EA70.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:47:24 the thing is, i know creating classes and subclasses for every property is probably silly, but then if i want to implement methods that will act differently according to these features, this way seems more logical 04:47:32 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:50 kenanb: I'd create a creature class. and then mix-in classes. 04:48:04 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 04:48:23 like basic stuff stamina power speed etc. in the creature class. and then for special abilities a mix-in class 04:48:32 like maybe.. oh I dunno.. gun-tootin'-mix-in 04:48:41 for gun-tootin' creatures 04:48:57 but it really depends on your overall structure of things :) 04:49:41 like you'd maybe make a (defclass redneck (creature gun-tootin') ...) 04:50:26 kenanb: If you have otherwise-unrelated types that have a `stamina' feature, then it is a good idea to factor it out into a mixin class, and provide methods on that mixin class. Otherwise, stamina would just be another slot in the creature class. 04:50:34 -!- beach` is now known as beach 04:51:38 kenanb: But all that is just implementation. It is more important to think about your protocols. A protocol is a collection of generic functions together with `types' that those generic functions operate on. 04:52:03 kenanb: Start with a stamina generic function. 04:52:24 kenanb: So that you can say (stamina thing) and get back a useful value. 04:52:45 kenanb: What Zhivago says, and possibly (setf (stamina thing) ...) as well. 04:52:46 kenanb: Now you can implement various stamina methods for various object implementations (classes). 04:53:08 kenanb: So there's no need to have a stamina class to inherit. 04:53:14 kenanb: You can start out without mixins, and then you create them as you feel you need to factor your code, because such changes don't alter the protocols. 04:53:36 az [~az@p4FE4EA43.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:44 (defmethod stamina (thing) 0) <- everything defaults now to zero stamina. 04:54:55 (stamina 10) -> 0 04:55:26 (defmethod stamina ((thing string)) (length thing)) <- strings have a stamina equal to their length. 04:59:56 kenanb: You're lucky you have no previous oo experience to be honest. CLOS is backwards compared to mostly everything else :) 05:00:31 schmrkc: It is everything else that is backwards. 05:00:51 beach: I didn't mean backwards as a bad thing. It doesn't really matter which one is backwards :) 05:02:17 -!- xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:02:49 schmrkc: if dijkstra was here, he would probably add "I think that description a great compliment because it transmits the full flavor of liberation" to your comment :D 05:03:37 Indeed 05:08:46 xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has joined #lisp 05:09:16 boscop_ [~boscop@g226243251.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:09:25 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:10:33 The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 05:11:46 kenanb: there are various sort of OO too. We could say it all depends on what the methods may be attached to. In normal (smalltalk) OO, the methods are attached to the classes. In Prototype-based OO (JavaScript, KR in Lisp, etc), the methods are attached to the object (this can also be done in CLOS with (eql object) method specializers). In CL, the methods are actually attached to the generic functions, in total independence from 05:11:46 the classes or the objects. 05:12:19 -!- boscop [~boscop@g226243251.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:12:20 -!- The_Fellow [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:13:08 is KR short for knowledge representation? 05:13:29 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0225.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 05:13:38 kenanb: Then there are OO systems where the class hierarchy must be a tree (single inheritance) (or a forest, like in Objective-C), and others like CLOS where the classes are organized in a mesh, a D.A.G. (multiple-inheritance). 05:14:08 kenanb: yes. It's the prototype-based OO system used in Garnet, an advanced GUI toolkit for CL. 05:14:21 KR is also available independently from Garnet. 05:16:14 So one question indeed is how to classify your objects. The important notion here is that an object has an identity. It may change, but it is still the same object. If you make a copy, it's a different object even if the two are in all parts identicals, just because the copy will have a different identity. Objects also encapsulate state. Their state may change. 05:16:43 In CLOS objects may change of class, without changing identity. In other OO systems it's not possible to change the class of an object. 05:17:28 So you could indeed, in CLOS, have different classes depending on the state of the object (and therefore have method dispatch select different methods according to the state, ie the class of the object). 05:18:12 For example, you could have a class Man and a class Woman, and upon a sex-change operation, a Man could become a Woman. Still the same object, but different methods to run, to dress, to think, etc. 05:18:41 But this would be for rather drastic changes. 05:19:14 Simple state changes such as stamina, energy, etc, would probably be implemented better without changing the class of the object. 05:20:16 (change-class *repl* python) 05:20:30 by object, do you mean the instances we make by make-instance? 05:22:51 Yes. 05:23:14 Those are the CLOS objects. 05:23:48 There are also the lisp objects, which are all the lisp values, such as symbols, integers, packages, etc. Those cannot change their 'class'. 05:24:53 kenanb: We'll spare you the meta-objects ;) 05:25:20 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:27:16 schmrkc: an hour ago before i started asking you my silly questions, i was trying to figure them out on my own by looking hyperspec and pcl and other sources, the moment i started reading meta-object i closed hyperspec and connected lisp channel :) 05:27:37 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-iffedygdciknocsj] has joined #lisp 05:27:50 kenanb: the meta-object protocol isn't specified in the hyperspec I think. 05:28:02 it's not very important anyhoo 05:29:47 kenanb: the Smalltalk object system is interesting to study too. (Ruby and Objective-C are smalltalk-like). 05:31:10 There everything is an object (even integers and methods). All Smalltalk objects have a class. Classes also are objects. Therefore classes have a class. The classes of classes are metaclasses. 05:32:10 *beach* thinks that "everything is an object" is a pretty meaningless phrase. 05:32:44 Well, in Smalltalk it has a precise meaning. 05:33:07 pjb: the difference between methods attached to classes and methods attached to objects seemed obvious to me, but i couldn't tell the difference between methods attached to generic functions from methods attached to classes, since from a surface exploration, since methods still seems to operate according to specific classes in CLOS, is it something that i am missing or is it normal and harmless to miss the difference at the beginning? 05:33:39 kenanb: have you looked at the two relevant chapters in PCL? 05:33:48 pjb: Unless you define "everything" or "think", I don't think so. 05:34:12 kenanb: (defmethod x ((a foo) (b bar)) ...) 05:34:31 It means that all 'smalltalk values' (lisp objects), are actually objects (CLOS objects), and therefore have a class (standard-class), with a super class (standard-class) and a meta class. 05:35:10 The lisp version is not true. 05:35:26 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:37 pjb: What Lisp value doesn't have a class? 05:36:10 kenanb: for one thing, it means that you can define generic functions and their method (specialized on the type of arguments) without definiting any CLOS class and using any CLOS instance. 05:36:28 gigamonkey: yes, but the bank accounts are the one thing that i am far far away :) 05:36:34 In Lisp, CLOS classes/objects and generic-functions/methods are two orthogonal concepts. 05:37:03 beach: (values 1 2 3) doens't have a class. 05:37:24 Zhivago: I don't consider that to be a "value". 05:37:41 (which I took to be the same as what the HyperSpec calls a "datum") 05:37:45 (class-of 1) --> #1=# 05:38:05 beach: Well, if you ignore all of the values withot classes ... 05:38:18 metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #lisp 05:38:21 The result of (values 1 2 3) is not one value. 05:38:24 Zhivago: That is precisesly why I wanted pjb to define "thing". 05:38:43 beach: you did get that pjb is drawing a distinction between classes that descend from standard-class and those that don't, right? 05:39:07 pjb: That's right, so since you restricted "thing" to be a value, (values 1 2 3) doesn't have to have a class in order for "everything" to have a class. 05:39:11 I was talking of Smalltalk and its object system. 05:39:42 gigamonkey: Yeah, but I don't see why that is important. 05:40:20 pjb: right. But implicitly you were saying something like, "every value in Smalltalk is an instance of a class with which you can do some things that in CL you can only do with standard-class" 05:40:30 Ok, so function results are not datum, not things, not objects. 05:40:46 Only the value(s) of function results are datom, or things. 05:40:55 and objects. 05:41:12 beach: I'm not sure either. I'd be interested what practical consequences arise in Smalltalk from having only one kind of class? 05:41:13 This is what I was trying to say, yes. 05:41:30 Can you do something akin to (make-instance 'integer :value 10)? 05:41:30 But I'll quit now. I just wanted to point out that, unless there is a precise definition of "thing", the phrase "everything is an object" has no meaning. 05:41:48 (values 1 2 3) isn't an object :) 05:41:57 Or (slot-value 10 'something) ? 05:42:10 (class-of '(values 1 2 3)) --> #1=# 05:42:15 <`3b`> gigamonkey: might matter more when there is class-specific syntax 05:42:21 Zhivago: you also need to be careful. 05:42:22 I guess you can probably ask what methods 10 supports? 05:42:31 pjb: Well, if can't manage to use quotes properly ... 05:42:46 The result of (values 1 2 3) is not an object. It's not one thing. This is obvious. 05:43:51 <`3b`> gigamonkey: actually, i think i'm thinking about the wrong question, so ignore that :) 05:44:05 pjb: stop arguing about the VALUES red-herring and tell me what you can do in Smalltalk because "everything is an object" that you can't do in CL because not everything is an instance of a class that is a subclass of standard-class. 05:44:09 ;-) 05:44:17 The result of (values 1 2 3) doesn't exist in Common Lisp. You have to map it to bindings with operators such as multiple-value-bind, or to project it to a single value when used as an argument. 05:45:11 pjb: Or return it as a return value. 05:45:13 gigamonkey: well, compared to CL, this doesn't add anything, because in CL we have generic functions to work with the "base types". It only adds a more simple framework. 05:45:34 Zhivago: perhaps you mean as multiple values. 05:45:54 Yes, you can do this one thing with that thing that doesn't exist :-) 05:47:30 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:49:34 enupten [~neptune@117.254.155.175] has joined #lisp 05:50:20 gigamonkey: For example, while we can define methods on non CLOS objects in CL, the usefulness is limited, because we don't have a lot of introspection available (at least standardized), and the Lisp system itself won't use our methods overriden, or allow us to define subclasses. (eg. print-object doesn't work on integers, you cannot redefine it). In Smalltalk, you have access to the classes of everything, you can make subclasses, and 05:50:20 override methods. And apart from a core of system classes which are compiled and generated in special ways (inlining method dispatch), your modifications are all taken into account. 05:51:21 -!- xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:54:56 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:56:50 -!- phrixos [~miar1@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:57:00 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:57:40 phrixos [~miar1@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 05:59:10 pjb: is it true that in Smalltalk all classes can be subclassed? 06:03:41 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 06:05:11 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.228.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:10:11 -!- trigen [~MSX@81.18.253.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:11:10 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:12:50 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.155.175] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 06:15:29 trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has joined #lisp 06:15:43 <_danb_> don't know about smalltalk but in ruby the answer is no; you can't subclass the Class object in ruby for instance 06:16:00 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:17:04 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:17:43 <_danb_> * I mean the class Class :) 06:19:18 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:20:23 hi all. I want to implement a new Lisp dialect as a templating language. I got some knowledge of Common Lisp and Clojure since I trained them but haven't done anything using Lisp before 06:20:44 -!- Sulimo [~angel@host209-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:20:53 and I'm going to implement that language in Javascript 06:21:16 then it's off-topic 06:21:45 nope, I'm talking about coding a new lisp 06:22:53 and this channel is about common lisp, is your lisp common? 06:22:57 Do you have any suggestions for me to start? I've created a minimal prototype but it sucks. I need a good guide 06:23:13 minion: LiSP 06:23:13 LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 06:23:15 sid3k: You might look at Lisp in small pieces. 06:23:17 right. 06:23:46 is it ok for beginners? 06:23:55 yes 06:24:13 FSVO begginners 06:25:00 arright 06:25:07 thanks 06:26:26 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 06:27:21 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-221-165-176.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:29:40 -!- upwardindex [~Adium@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:34:21 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:38:40 Sulimo [~angel@host209-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 06:39:59 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:40:11 gigamonkey: IIRC, yes. 06:42:29 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:44:22 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 06:45:49 codd [~admin@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:25 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47:44 question: is there any way to know whether a keyword is in a property list other than looking at every odd place? (getf seq key) will return nil if the keyword exists and its value is nil 06:48:03 -!- p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:49:23 (getf seq key '#:no-keyword) 06:49:23 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Quit: Eish!] 06:49:38 s/odd/even/ 06:49:39 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:50:51 *stassats* learns about get-properties 06:51:05 thanks, I don't remember seeing that in the hyperspec, which is my main reference now. So there are little modifiers hidden all over the place now? 06:51:21 codd: what do you mean? 06:51:36 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 06:51:54 that '#no-keyword modifies the behavior of getf to do what I asked I understand? 06:52:16 no, it doesn't _modify_ anything 06:52:20 clhs getf 06:52:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm 06:52:39 *codd* is looking now... 06:53:00 it's just an object which will be returned in case the indicator wasn't found in the plist 06:53:23 ahh 06:53:40 must read throughly 06:53:43 thanks 06:54:12 clhs get-properties 06:54:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_pr.htm 06:55:58 I don't see how to gather all functions that have to do with, for example, plists, is that also in the HS? 06:56:29 clhs 14.2 06:56:29 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 14.2. 06:56:34 specbot: damn you! 06:56:49 http://lisp.org/cl/14.2 06:56:58 damn me 06:57:02 http://l1sp.org/cl/14.2 06:57:59 does that link work for you? 06:58:49 the last one does 06:59:13 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59:35 right, thanks 07:01:14 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:01:19 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:02:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:07:02 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082B241.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:16 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:09:39 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082AE11.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:10:28 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #lisp 07:12:11 ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has joined #lisp 07:14:41 -!- syntard [~quassel@204.51.92.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:15:36 syntard [~quassel@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 07:19:14 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 07:20:10 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:20:31 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:22:12 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 07:25:21 -!- codd [~admin@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Client Exiting] 07:26:28 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:26:33 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:59 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:30:59 -!- superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:31:09 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@124-148-40-217.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:32:35 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:04 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:33:29 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@203-214-91-66.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:34:04 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 07:35:29 -!- TomSlick` [~b@99-7-187-77.lightspeed.mssnks.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:35:44 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 07:36:50 -!- jdz [~jdz@host188-104-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:38:23 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:38:25 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 07:41:13 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:44:21 good morning 07:46:20 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-37.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:49:19 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:51:51 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 07:52:13 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:52:42 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:58:24 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:04:47 plediii_ [~plediii@adsl-99-62-29-224.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:35 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 08:08:28 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:08:44 -!- plediii [~plediii@nat-128-42-154-239.rice.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:08:45 -!- plediii_ is now known as plediii 08:10:38 -!- Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:13:53 beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:15:47 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:18:02 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:18:03 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:18:55 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:19:29 -!- Zhuangzi [~zhuangzi@unaffiliated/zhuangzi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19:50 -!- beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:20:38 H4ns` [~user@p579F8922.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:51 hello mvilleneuve 08:21:56 [and good morning everyone] 08:22:29 good morning mrs spiaggia 08:23:01 mrs? 08:23:05 *homie`* feels like in school 08:23:30 err abbrev for mr/ms 08:27:32 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:27:49 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755a78.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:06 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:28:12 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:28:49 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 08:29:18 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:30:12 -!- SCVirus [~SCVirus@S0106001c1122940c.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:30:15 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:31:15 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:32:00 beaumonta [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 08:32:20 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont_ 08:37:51 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:11 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:41:36 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:43:15 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 08:45:01 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633486.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:48:27 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755a78.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:50:03 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442446.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:53:15 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 08:55:22 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 08:57:10 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.228.254] has joined #lisp 08:57:32 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:01:02 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:01:36 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.228.254] has quit [Client Quit] 09:02:51 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:25 Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@85.22.93.138] has joined #lisp 09:04:11 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:04:55 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.31.34] has joined #lisp 09:07:17 loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has joined #lisp 09:07:58 vokoda [~vokoda@host109-153-45-133.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:06 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:09:09 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:12 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:10:19 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:12:19 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:13:44 -!- stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:14:44 trigen- [~MSX@81.18.253.210] has joined #lisp 09:15:15 andrew__ [~chatzilla@117.196.225.82] has joined #lisp 09:15:23 stettberger [stettberge@peer.zerties.org] has joined #lisp 09:15:33 -!- andrew__ [~chatzilla@117.196.225.82] has quit [Client Quit] 09:16:25 -!- trigen [~MSX@87.209.144.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:16:30 clhs untrace 09:16:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm 09:18:40 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:46 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has left #lisp 09:23:53 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:24:06 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:27:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-170-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:29:49 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-059-072.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:34 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 09:31:17 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:44 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:33:33 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.23] has joined #lisp 09:34:20 Hi guys, I want to start practising some Common Lisp ... and I downloaded and installed Clozure, Slime and Emacs on my mac 09:34:27 I am kinda new to emacs too 09:34:45 press C-h t 09:34:47 I was playing around with slime just doing a "M-x slime" and typing in some stuff on it 09:34:59 yeah I am going through the emacs tutorial 09:35:17 I am just wondering how I can start a new file, write lisp code in it and compile it? 09:35:22 using emacs and slime 09:36:02 can someone let me know quickly how they do it? 09:36:08 <_3b> C-x C-f to open/create a file, C-c C-k to compile and load it into slime after you edit it 09:36:31 <_3b> or C-c C-c to compile/load a single form a t a time within the file 09:36:32 C-x C-f some-file RET ( d e f u n f o o ( ) ( p r i n t " H e l l o , W o r l d " ) ) C-c C-c C-c C-y RET 09:37:40 but first I must start slime with M-x slime yeah? 09:37:56 yes 09:38:01 how come there are so many C-c 's at the end stassats ? 09:38:11 <_3b> stassats: what is C-c C-y? 09:38:25 _3b: "Insert a call to the toplevel form defined around point into the REPL." 09:38:31 what does "C-x C-e" do? 09:38:45 edlinde: press C-h k C-x C-e to find out 09:38:56 also how do i get it such that I have two panes... the lisp code on the top pane and the output below? 09:39:12 <_3b> hmm, must be newer than my slime or something 09:39:13 edlinde: press C-c C-z in the file 09:39:35 whats C-c C-z do? 09:39:51 it does what you asked 09:40:15 and again, you can use C-h k to find out on your own 09:41:21 _3b: it's there since 2006-03-23 09:41:55 calling other things than defun is recent 09:42:14 like inserting (make-instance 'foo) for (defclass foo ...) etc. 09:43:53 <_3b> stassats: ah, maybe i just broke my config then :) 09:43:53 ok I am gonna try these commands now 09:44:16 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:44:23 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:44:44 whats the file extension for lisp? 09:44:46 .lisp? 09:44:47 .lisp 09:44:50 or .lsp? 09:44:53 ok 09:44:57 _3b: it's defined only while in the lisp file 09:45:42 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-93-93.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:46:47 ok i did the new file 09:46:51 placed your foo in it 09:47:01 and did a C-c C-k in the end 09:47:08 and it compiled successfully 09:47:11 spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pjemaaqjwedwditd] has joined #lisp 09:47:17 how do I execute this in Slime? 09:47:17 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-kfkjktbkjsvhazny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:47:48 I see at the top my code window 09:48:00 and then at the bottom I see a help window from my previous command 09:48:00 you can press C-c C-y 09:48:16 says its undefined 09:48:28 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:48:30 I did it in the code window 09:48:57 you don't have slime-repl contrib loaded, do you? 09:49:06 do you have a buffer named *slime-repl ccl*? 09:49:08 -!- spradnyesh1 [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-pjemaaqjwedwditd] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:49:13 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-znvzpokmuokyyedd] has joined #lisp 09:49:29 nah I don't see it 09:49:46 but you do see a *inferior-lisp* buffer instead? 09:49:49 the thing is when I start slime.. I see a window that says "*inferior-lisp* 09:49:52 aha 09:50:00 not at the moment though 09:50:02 so, put (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in your .emacs 09:50:04 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 09:50:05 do I have to kill a buffer? 09:50:10 and restart emacs 09:50:18 ok will try .. one sec 09:51:23 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) 09:51:29 i got that in the last line 09:51:36 didn't work with that either 09:51:48 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-37.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51:48 is that the same thing .. or should I get rid of slime-asdf? 09:51:56 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 09:52:14 stassats: any ideas? 09:52:16 no, it's ok 09:52:30 so I still don't see "slime-repl" 09:52:40 did you start slime? 09:52:43 lemme restart emacs once more 09:53:17 <_3b> that is the only (slime-setup ...) in .emacs, right? 09:53:32 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:53:33 I can paste the .emacs someplace 09:53:34 hang on 09:53:39 I just restarted emacs 09:53:40 well, i think several slime-setups wouldn't interfere 09:53:48 and slime and I still get the same inferior.. 09:55:04 edlinde: what does C-h v slime-setup-contribs say about its value? 09:56:04 http://pastebin.com/Q5FxweW0 09:56:38 slime-setup-contribs is a variable defined in `slime-autoloads.el'. 09:56:38 Its value is 09:56:38 (slime-fancy slime-asdf) 09:57:54 is this making sense? 09:58:32 yes, it's right 09:58:50 H4ns` [~user@p579F8E9D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:59 ok so with my paste, does it make any sense as to why I don't see the buffer name as slime-repl? 09:59:40 oh heh, (require 'slime-autoloads) 09:59:56 get rid of this line? 09:59:59 who told you about it, get rid of it immediately! 10:00:04 okid 10:00:19 sorry is there a way to quickly switch between buffers? 10:00:33 I keep losing my buffers... I know they got names etc... 10:00:36 C-x b 10:00:45 edlinde: try ido-mode 10:00:50 and C-x b 10:01:08 For C-x b ... do I need to know the buffer name? 10:01:22 I get (default *GNU Emacs*) 10:01:49 with ido-mode, you are shown all buffer names and can step through them with thy arrow keys. also, you can type substrings of the name and jump to the buffer really fast 10:01:50 <_3b> ctrl-click might give you a menu of buffers 10:02:03 ah I just went with the up and down keys 10:02:40 -!- H4ns [~user@p579F8922.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:03:13 is there cmd to get rid of a line? 10:03:16 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:03:36 C-k? 10:03:55 try the fine tutorial. on C-h t 10:03:59 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:05:31 awesome 10:05:38 now I see slime-repl cc 10:05:39 ccl 10:05:45 thanks stassats 10:05:49 what happens next now? 10:05:55 I got the file and I managed to compile it 10:06:10 do you then just go to this CL_USER> prompt and invoke it? 10:06:15 yes 10:06:15 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:17 or is there a way to do it automatically from the code? 10:06:37 you can use C-c C-y on your function 10:06:39 oh I just typed in foo 10:06:45 gave me an error and restart options 10:06:51 I had this problem yesterday too 10:06:56 what option do I choose? 10:06:58 0 ? 10:07:05 what error? 10:07:18 Unbound Variable: FOO 10:07:26 well... 10:07:31 it should be (foo) 10:07:34 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:07:37 I shouldn't have typed that in I know 10:07:40 minion: please tell edlinde about PCL 10:07:41 edlinde: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 10:07:42 but how do I get out of it 10:07:50 press q 10:08:22 gave me unbound variable q 10:08:33 grrr 10:08:35 this is a pain 10:09:00 "you are doing it wrong" 10:09:10 ok how do I do it right? 10:09:11 :) 10:09:30 I just want to see it work before I get into the lisp tutorials 10:09:31 yay :) CCL has a RC for arm. Trying it out 10:09:36 you get an error, you get an sldb buffer, you press q, and fix the error 10:10:01 stassats: ah I had to press 'q' in the buffer below 10:10:10 I was pressing it in the CL_USER> prompt 10:10:15 i figured 10:10:16 ok so now I get the prompt back 10:10:18 :) 10:10:35 tfb [~tfb@92.40.126.73.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:10:35 ok (foo) stuffed up too 10:10:35 edlinde: i'm sure it's "CL-USER" (not "CL_USER") 10:10:47 yeah its CL-USER 10:11:00 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:11:01 get used to this, _ is a no-no! 10:11:24 yeah I know 10:11:29 its the Lisp way 10:11:40 I still need to figure out how to have multiple windows 10:11:56 C-x 5 2? 10:11:57 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181247246.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:12:07 whats C-x 5 2? 10:12:09 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 10:12:21 I know C-x 2 splits a window into half vertically 10:12:22 the key sequence you press in emacs 10:12:29 edlinde: C-h k! remember it! 10:12:30 phajdan-jr [~ph@gentoo/developer/phajdan-jr] has joined #lisp 10:12:39 splittist [~John@118.143.4.5] has joined #lisp 10:12:42 morning 10:12:45 ok 10:12:52 emacs can answer all your questions 10:12:53 and more 10:13:02 sorry for basic question, but... how to quit CMU lisp interpeter? 10:13:14 (ext:quit) 10:13:17 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:13:29 and don't call it interpreter 10:13:42 but it includes an interpreter :P 10:13:42 yeah typing in C-h k 5 took me to the help straight away 10:13:43 ok, thanks! 10:13:49 didn't wait for the other 2 10:13:59 edlinde: you skipped the C-x part 10:14:11 ah ok 10:14:22 edlinde: don't do it. (and pay attention, please) 10:14:48 don't do what? 10:15:10 edlinde: don't skip parts of what you've been told 10:15:28 yeah ok 10:15:40 I just started using emacs last night...so gimme a break here 10:15:53 edlinde: again: try the fine tutorial on C-h t :) 10:15:56 one of the parts is "read Practical Common Lisp" 10:16:11 seriously, it describes all of your questions 10:16:15 ok 10:16:23 but I got the "Land of Lisp" book instead 10:16:33 our prof reckons the PCL book is not big on details 10:16:37 meh :( still waiting for my copy 10:16:41 edlinde: screw him 10:16:47 PCL rocks 10:16:53 nah wouldn't want to do that :) 10:17:00 screw her? :) 10:17:06 big on details, what does he expect, CLHS for beginners? 10:17:13 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:17:34 he reckons its written in more of an "inspirational style" 10:17:47 howdy nikodemus 10:17:53 he thinks ANSI Common Lisp is better 10:17:54 hey nikodemus, tcr 10:17:56 edlinde: i reckon he haven't read it 10:18:09 is your professor's name Paul? 10:18:16 the pg book? i think it's the other way round... 10:18:45 Hi Hun. What are you up to? 10:18:58 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:18:59 stassats: nope but he thinks Paul is cool 10:19:00 my rss reader told me, ccl for arm is out 10:19:02 :) 10:19:17 edlinde: thinking that pg is cool isn't cool anymore 10:19:19 packed it onto my devboard and it works on first try. next: get swank running on that thingy 10:19:53 boscop [~boscop@f055016054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:20:06 :( ccl doesn't support my arm 10:20:33 works fine on my omap3 :) 10:20:43 -!- boscop_ [~boscop@g226243251.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:21:19 stassats: ok I just did a function foo like you mentioned 10:21:19 (defun foo() 10:21:20 (print "Hello, World" )) 10:21:34 and then compiled it etc... now on Slime I just call it as (foo) 10:21:37 gives me an error 10:21:41 am I doing this wrong? 10:21:51 undefined function call 10:22:11 well, you're certainly doing something wrong 10:22:20 yeah I figured as much :) 10:22:42 I am sure that the code is right, it compiles ok 10:22:44 edlinde: what makes you think you compiled the function? 10:23:04 at least read the second chapter of PCL 10:23:17 where it describes how to slime 10:23:26 hmm weird now it worked 10:23:48 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:23:56 maybe last time i compiled it... I still had that weird problem with my slime window being called "inferior lisp" 10:24:02 Hun: doesn't on my omap2 10:24:04 ok will go read now 10:24:06 adios :) 10:24:24 stassats: :( 10:24:34 i'm trying quicklisp on it. let's see how it breaks :D 10:25:06 Hun: works fine last time i checked (i saw it running on an N900 at ILC) 10:25:17 ivan4th made some important fixes to make it happen 10:26:53 aceluck [~aceluck@175.144.251.51] has joined #lisp 10:27:55 Blkt [~user@160.80.132.241] has joined #lisp 10:28:41 hi Blkt :) 10:29:00 good day everyone 10:29:11 "premature greeting is ..." 10:29:20 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:29:30 hi fe[nl]ix 10:29:41 stassats: what is it? 10:29:57 Blkt: i don't know! 10:30:26 -!- plediii [~plediii@adsl-99-62-29-224.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: plediii] 10:30:34 stassats: nice, a thing you don't know :) 10:30:55 at least i know that i don't know 10:30:57 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:31:48 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:32:40 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.80.117] has joined #lisp 10:32:50 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 10:37:04 tcr: slime on ccl/arm warns on (load ".../swank-loader.lisp") because the architecture isn't found. where should i push this? :) 10:37:47 Hun: what's the architecure? 10:37:56 in *features* 10:39:16 guess it's one of these: :ARM-TARGET :LINUX-HOST :LINUX-TARGET :LINUXARM-TARGET :LINUXARM-HOST 10:40:01 -!- adeht [void@91.121.18.93] has quit [Quit: death] 10:41:34 no :arm? 10:41:50 (find :arm *features*) 10:41:56 (member :arm *features*) 10:41:57 NIL 10:42:04 "look ma, no arms!" 10:42:10 oh the noes! 10:42:46 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:49 that's rather inconvenient 10:42:54 the slime is the one out of quicklisp: slime-20101006 10:43:04 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:43:16 Hun: just curious: which machine are you running it on? 10:43:30 sorry guys, if I exit emacs and get back into it and go to slime, do I then have to recompile all my .lisp files in order to call them in slime? 10:43:37 Blkt: tao3530: http://www.technexion.com/index.php/tao-3530 10:43:41 edlinde: yes 10:43:42 on a custom baseboard 10:43:47 ah no wonder 10:43:49 :) 10:43:51 ok 10:43:52 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 10:46:12 i think ccl should be patched first, to add :arm to features, and then i can add it to slime 10:46:18 serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has joined #lisp 10:46:27 Hello! 10:46:40 _death [void@91.121.18.93] has joined #lisp 10:46:55 stassats: doesn't :arm-target suffice? 10:47:09 no 10:47:23 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:47:24 well, it will work, but it's not the right thing to do 10:47:29 :) 10:47:38 it will work without anything, for that matter 10:47:47 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-znvzpokmuokyyedd] has left #lisp 10:48:14 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181247246.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 10:50:04 ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:50:17 lunch. bbl 10:50:18 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@nat/cisco/x-ljftkxgfnbwoicug] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:53:29 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181247246.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:56:21 ok, i created a ticket and provisionally added :arm feature to slime. 10:57:02 (in process of adding, damn slow cl.net CVS) 10:59:57 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.31.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:00:05 -!- phajdan-jr [~ph@gentoo/developer/phajdan-jr] has left #lisp 11:02:53 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-174.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:03:20 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:06:34 stassats: (ql:quickload "swank") seems to work. i open a server with (swank:create-server :port 4005 :dont-close t :coding-system "utf-8-unix"), which shows up in netstat -l, but it immediately closes the socket 11:07:06 under which excuse? 11:07:18 open-network-stream: make client process failed: connection refused, :name, SLIME Lisp, :buffer, nil, :host, 192.168.254.2, :service, 4005 11:07:31 nc 192.168.254.2 also immediately quits 11:07:41 no message in the hosting ccl 11:07:55 -!- vokoda [~vokoda@host109-153-45-133.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:07:55 and it doesn't send anything? 11:08:38 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-185-209.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:09:10 no. no transfer at all (wireshark signals a killed connection) 11:09:43 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:09:52 ah, got it. it doesn't listen on external IP 11:10:10 that is right 11:10:22 you need to setup an ssh tunnel 11:10:38 can i make swank do that? the ethernet connection is shaky enough as it is, adding a tunnel would further complicate thingsn 11:10:49 or if you feel courageous, redefine swank::*loopback-interface* 11:11:21 kids, don't try this not at home! 11:11:47 it's completely internal and non routed, so no sweat 11:12:15 yeah, it's safe to try at home 11:12:43 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:13:09 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:13:42 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:59 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181247246.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:16:23 -!- xyxxyyy2 [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:18:33 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:20:44 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 11:21:42 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-55-13.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22:25 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has joined #lisp 11:23:47 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.144.251.51] has quit [Quit: aceluck] 11:26:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:26:45 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:26:48 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29:11 Yuuhi [benni@p5483D768.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:01 a more general question, I'm building a c++ application, that renders shapes/objects at some x,y. but I would like to give them properties like, gravity, mass, and then give them to CL, where CL executes behaviours on them using the properties, and have it return to my C++., 11:30:01 vokoda_ [~vokoda@host109-153-43-168.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:30:08 how would you typically do the communication between c++ and lisp? 11:30:40 the C++ is more for the GUI stuff, and simple animations, and I'm planning on implementing the more advanced stuff in lisp (although I'm still learning lisp) 11:31:17 Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has joined #lisp 11:31:19 -!- vokoda_ [~vokoda@host109-153-43-168.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:31:26 by making a library and declaring stuff with extern "C" 11:31:39 vokoda_ [~vokoda@host109-153-43-168.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:31:53 stassats: got it to run with the ssh tunnel. it seemed as if some part in slime assumes a connection by 127.0.0.1. didn't dig further in 11:31:56 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.28.185] has joined #lisp 11:32:09 did you change *loopback-interface*? 11:32:15 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 11:32:29 okay i didn't know you could make a lisp library 11:32:30 remember, it's defined using defparameter 11:32:49 trigen-: you can, but that's not what i said 11:32:51 stassats: no, i used the ssh tunnel. it runs with defaults now 11:33:26 swank::*loopback-interface* is what assumes 127.0.0.1 11:33:29 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:33:31 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 11:34:04 stassats: i changed it there before. seemed to work, but when i did a slime-connect, it tried to access 127.0.0.1 somewhere else 11:34:35 xyxxyyy2 [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has joined #lisp 11:34:38 Joreji [~thomas@86-147.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:34:38 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:34:41 stassats: i see, well i'd prefer it the other way around in this particular case;) 11:35:17 minion: ECL? 11:35:18 ECL: Embeddable Common Lisp, a member of the KCL Family, is a Common Lisp implementation initially developed by Giuseppe Attardi and currently maintained by Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll. http://www.cliki.net/ECL 11:36:14 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.28.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:36:16 (the existing c++ code is for gui stuff, but a lot of other things as well but I didn't mention that). 11:36:21 but thank you for your answer 11:36:57 hmm. compiling stuff on the arm is pretty slow. but it's amazing that i can do that at all - putting gcc on that thing is horrible 11:37:31 -!- vokoda_ [~vokoda@host109-153-43-168.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:39:05 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-182-174.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:39:46 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 11:39:46 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 11:39:46 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 11:41:16 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:41:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@86-147.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:42:06 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 11:43:04 Patzy [~something@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 11:45:06 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 11:45:20 -!- Blkt [~user@160.80.132.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:45:31 hefner [~hefner@ppp-61-90-102-34.revip.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 11:48:06 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.46] has joined #lisp 11:49:00 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:49:00 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:49:28 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:50:38 vokoda_ [~vokoda@host109-156-5-218.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:51:26 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-104-226.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:58:39 -!- vokoda_ [~vokoda@host109-156-5-218.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:59:52 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 12:00:16 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:00:52 unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 12:01:31 -!- not_andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:02:31 not_andares [~andares@weldorm-pat.netcom.duke.edu] has joined #lisp 12:02:35 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 12:05:53 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.31.34] has joined #lisp 12:06:20 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:06:37 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:06:46 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:08:34 -!- not_andares [~andares@weldorm-pat.netcom.duke.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:09:30 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.46] has joined #lisp 12:09:37 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:09:58 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 12:11:18 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:11:25 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:11:55 -!- unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 12:12:09 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:13:15 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:14:25 not_andares [~andares@weldorm-pat.netcom.duke.edu] has joined #lisp 12:15:01 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:16:35 -!- benny [~benny@i577A2F9D.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:16:39 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:17:40 ok. ccl really doesn't like it if i FFI a C function that mmaps a huge chunk of memory. 12:20:40 vokoda [~vokoda@host86-145-188-254.range86-145.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:26:05 s0ng0ku [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:23 Hi! How do i get the first n elements from a list? 12:26:59 clhs subseq 12:27:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 12:27:21 thanks! 12:27:50 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.193.243] has joined #lisp 12:28:00 keep in mind that it makes a copy 12:28:09 hdurer_ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 12:28:33 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:28:44 chronicity can not be loaded in CCL due to "Error: The function DELETE-DIRECTORY is predefined in Clozure CL. While executing: REDEFINE-KERNEL-FUNCTION, in process listener(1)." 12:29:08 that's a cl-fad error 12:29:20 report it to cl-fad 12:29:33 leo2007: because it is new in ccl 1.6 12:30:41 why would cl-fad use a ccl-internal package (in it's entirety)? 12:30:51 ccl-specific even 12:31:04 -!- Holcxjo [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:31:40 jdz: There might have been no better option. 12:31:53 chronicity doesn't seem to use cl-fad, or does it? 12:32:19 anyway, cl-fad has this same error and i'm too lazy to report it 12:32:31 cl-fad needs to be updated. it defines and exports a symbol in the CCL package. 12:33:40 oh, local-time depends on cl-fad, so here you go 12:34:04 hi, how does asdf know I've edited a system? i.e., if I (REQUIRE :CL-FOO), edit cl-foo.lisp (even when I don't change anything but still write the file), asdf will recompile :CL-FOO. Does it log the last write timestamp on the dependant files somewhere and check against them? 12:34:18 yes, it does 12:34:38 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 12:34:39 stassats: thanks 12:34:41 it also compares time difference between .fasl and .lisp 12:34:46 ah 12:35:19 see operation-done-p method 12:36:30 oh. mmaping huge stuff in FFI'd in CCL is fine, as long as you don't explicitly mmap to a region that ccl uses (concretely: 0x6E000000) 12:36:36 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 12:37:40 -!- ska` [~user@203.146.146.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:38:28 stassats: it seems like stripping comments/whitespace then hashing that against the most recent strip would be more effective. any reason it doesn't do this? 12:38:46 because it's overcomplicated 12:38:51 okay 12:39:07 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:39:24 something like this solves it. http://paste.pocoo.org/show/285507 12:40:04 leo2007: send it to Edi Weitz 12:40:11 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:40:32 though, make sure that both delete-directories have the same semantics 12:40:35 That seems a little shortsighted though. 12:40:50 there may be differences in handling non-empty directories 12:40:58 I created http://trac.clozure.com/ccl/ticket/771 on the ccl side. 12:41:31 Xach: thanks. 12:42:16 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 12:42:31 Ogedei [~user@p5DDB0D02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:46 how do I get the prev command in Slime? 12:44:08 C-Up 12:44:12 M-p 12:44:18 edlinde: M-p 12:44:35 that's easier, thanks! 12:44:36 thanks 12:44:49 M-p is easier to remember as previous command 12:44:53 is M-n next? 12:45:11 yes 12:45:11 yes it is :) 12:45:13 :) 12:49:25 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-93-93.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:49:26 -!- syntard [~quassel@204.51.92.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:50:12 M-p does actually more than that 12:51:59 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:52:30 CHRONICITY doesn't seem to work with CCL. 12:52:50 syntard [~quassel@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 12:53:13 does it only seem? does it work not on CCL? 12:53:23 *Xach* wants a clicky UI to be able to select a project and see all its children and grandchildren 12:53:33 stassats: i am able to build it on sbcl. 12:54:35 Xach: that can be done for slime 12:54:39 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:55:03 3 execution errors: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/285515 12:55:04 stassats: I think it would be fairly straightforward to make html+js do it too. 12:55:23 you need a browser for that 12:55:32 fortunately i have a browser. 12:55:55 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.193.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:56:21 but having "3d system editor" for slime would be good too 12:57:04 rtoym: ping 12:57:30 fe[nl]ix: You rang? 12:57:48 ITYM pang 12:57:56 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:59:01 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:59:04 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 12:59:24 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:35 rtoym: even though I'm building cmucl with -batch -noinit -nositeinit, /usr/lib/cmucl/site-init.lisp is still getting loaded 12:59:39 how could that be ? 13:01:07 fe[nl]ix: Good question. That's not supposed to happen. 13:01:39 and lisp -batch -eval '(ext:quit)' doesn't quit and I get to the REPL 13:01:43 so is -batch broken ? 13:01:56 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:01:59 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 13:02:16 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:02:21 Blkt [~user@160.80.132.241] has joined #lisp 13:03:03 Well, that's weird. It exists for me. 13:03:16 Er, exits. 13:03:23 hmm 13:05:02 *rtoym* notes that the docstring for save-lisp needs some work. 13:06:02 Are you using your binaries or the binaries from c-l.net? 13:06:54 the ones I built 13:06:56 grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:34 Did you dump new images with some special save-lisp options? 13:07:36 actually, the first error is with the ones from c-l.net, the second with the ones I built 13:08:09 Oh. Let me check -nositeinit then. 13:09:05 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:10:45 fe[nl]ix: I don't see site-init being loaded with -batch -noinit -nositeinit. 13:11:18 kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.248] has joined #lisp 13:11:18 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.164.248] has quit [Changing host] 13:11:18 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:15:26 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:15:31 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Client Quit] 13:16:06 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-122-27.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:43 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:16:49 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:50 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:17:09 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:17:31 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:19:33 _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.111.187] has joined #lisp 13:20:19 -!- grumps [~user@c-71-194-138-249.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:21:52 fe[nl]ix: Is this Linux? I tried this with the 2010-11 snapshot, and I just don't see site-init being loaded. 13:23:48 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:24:06 fgump [~gauthamg@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:25:25 rtoym: http://paste.lisp.org/+2HNP 13:25:52 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.167.81] has joined #lisp 13:27:09 should this trivial patch be applied on CFFI? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/285527 13:28:25 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [] 13:28:45 leo2007: cffi has a bug tracker on launchpad, too, these days 13:29:57 -!- splittist [~John@118.143.4.5] has quit [Quit: Wheee. Why? No reason. Just "Whee!".] 13:30:46 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 13:32:01 gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:32:05 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:11 jeti [~user@p54B46513.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:57 fe[nl]ix: You said it also happens with a binary from c-l.net? How did you create your version? Did you just do (save-lisp "foo")? 13:37:37 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:37:38 I built it the usual way 13:37:49 enupten [~neptune@117.254.105.175] has joined #lisp 13:38:33 I don't know what's going on then. This is especially confusing if the binary from c-l.net loads site-init for you but not for me. 13:39:13 urandom__ [~user@p548A4F70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:36 rrice [~rrice@adsl-69-221-165-176.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:12 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Quit: bbl] 13:45:55 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:46:16 rtoym: I stuck an (error "AHA!") in site-init.lisp, and the build dies this way: Failed: build-2/lisp/lisp -batch -noinit -fpu sse2 13:46:26 Error in function LISP::SLOLOAD: AHA! 13:46:49 -nositeinit is gone 13:46:56 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:19 That makes sense since you didn't specify -nositeinit. 13:47:31 I did 13:48:23 Where? Can you give me the command line you used? 13:49:09 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 13:49:17 I guess, though, the build scripts should include a -nositeinit. 13:49:48 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@cpat001.wlan.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:49:57 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.31.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:52:32 rtoym: src/tools/build.sh -v "-gentoo-r0" -C "" -o "bin/lisp -core lib/cmucl/lib/lisp-sse2.core -noinit -nositeinit -batch -f sse2" 13:53:09 fe[nl]ix: Thanks. Let me look into this. 13:53:56 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:54:52 BTW, that looks wrong. It should be -fpu sse2, not -f sse2. Or use build.sh -f sse2. 13:55:10 hmm 13:56:41 right: I pasted the ending #\" in the wrong place 13:57:18 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:58:03 Something else is wrong. src/tools/build-world.sh already includes -noinit -nositeinit. The site-init shouldn't be loaded. 13:59:01 Like you, I put an error in site-init. Then src/tools/build.sh -b darwin -o "cmulisp -batch" doesn't load site-init. 13:59:03 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has left #lisp 14:00:15 rtoym: in build.sh I see several "$TARGET/lisp/lisp -batch -noinit $FPU_MODE" 14:00:38 or similar 14:00:47 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:40 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:02:14 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:02:45 I only see one, but it looks like its just checking that a "working" core file was built. 14:04:08 Can you stick a set -x at the beginning of build.sh and build-world.sh and run build.sh and paste the output for me? 14:04:13 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 14:04:31 I assume this used to work? Or is this something you just noticed? 14:04:45 I just noticed it 14:05:13 AFK for 20 minutes 14:07:27 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:08:14 -!- BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has quit [Quit: BrandLeeJones] 14:08:15 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.105.175] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:09:50 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 14:10:22 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:11:45 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-185-209.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:12:16 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:16 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:16 -!- Sulimo [~angel@host209-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:16 -!- The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:16 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:16 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:16 -!- fpletz [~fpletz@2001:7f0:3003:42:ccc:acab:ed:23] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:16 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@2001:858:745:a0e4:200:1aff:fe19:d355] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:16 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:16 -!- vandemar [spin@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:16 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-252-116.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:16 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:17 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:17 -!- symbole` [~user@216.214.176.130] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:17 -!- Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:17 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-gbektgcfzcyosfpm] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:17 -!- inklesspen [~jon@inklesspen.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:17 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:17 -!- hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:17 -!- amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:17 -!- Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:12:17 -!- sepi [~sepiultru@hcl-club.lu] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:14:02 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:15:35 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:07 BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:28 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:18:08 is there no CL equivallent of elisp's SEQUENCEP? 14:18:48 egn: What does SEQUENCEP do? 14:19:33 egn: probably (typep x 'sequence) 14:20:14 Xach: pretty much what tfb said 14:20:16 tfb: thanks 14:20:21 I'll just write it 14:24:25 redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:24:35 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 14:25:01 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:28:13 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:28:34 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:29:39 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:29:50 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:30:10 xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has joined #lisp 14:32:32 egn: Usually you don't need it because you use SEQUENCE in a typecase, or you use CHECK-TYPE 14:32:48 rather than using COND 14:33:09 but yeah been there done that, it's missing :-) 14:33:29 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-iffedygdciknocsj] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:33:35 fpletz [~fpletz@2001:7f0:3003:42:ccc:acab:ed:23] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 Sulimo [~angel@host209-237-dynamic.20-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 The_Fellow1 [~spider1@glida.mooo.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 antifuchs [~foobar@2001:858:745:a0e4:200:1aff:fe19:d355] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 vandemar [spin@2001:470:1f10:56b::4] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-252-116.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 inklesspen [~jon@inklesspen.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 symbole` [~user@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 Zhivago [~zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 reb [~user@nat/google/x-gbektgcfzcyosfpm] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 hdurer`` [~hdurer@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 amaron [~amaron@greenzone.copyleft.no] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 sepi [~sepiultru@hcl-club.lu] has joined #lisp 14:33:35 Axioplase_ [~Axioplase@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 14:33:59 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:34:12 tcr: ah, yeah. I'm ensuring sequencep before a LENGTH call. I guess I could just handle the TYPE-ERROR too 14:35:19 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:19 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 14:36:39 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 625 seconds] 14:38:28 *p_l|uni* has a feeling that implementing CL on z/OS would give weird experience 14:40:41 ehu [~ehuels@109.34.11.43] has joined #lisp 14:41:57 in lisp, is there a difference between saying '() and just () ? 14:42:29 I ask because when I do a (cons 'pork ()) ... its the same as (cons 'pork '()) 14:42:45 rtoym: I appended -nositeinit to -noinit to every place in build.sh where it was missing and it works now 14:42:56 also an example I am looking at says --- (if '() ... 14:42:56 edlinde: no, it's the same 14:42:57 egn: I reckon it's probably better style to do what you're doing (ie check) rather than blunder on. But obviously that's just opinion 14:43:10 is ' used to say whatever follows is DATA? 14:43:18 tfb: agreed 14:43:24 fe[nl]ix: Oh. So it was failing at the TARGET/lisp/lisp line then? 14:43:26 would I be right in assuming that Hun ? 14:43:52 I don't know which exactly, there were 4-5 instances 14:43:52 NIL, '() and () is all the same. think of QUOTE as turning of the evaluator 14:43:56 Hun: is it just good practise? 14:44:10 edlinde: () is NIL, which is a constant that evaluates to itself. 14:44:10 edlinde: that way it's easier to understand backquote later 14:44:30 edlinde: good practice is whatever you define it to be 14:44:35 but in an if expression why would you turn off the evaluator? 14:44:57 I mean in the Lisp community there are some standards you follow 14:45:06 like global vars wrapped with a ** 14:45:12 things like that :) 14:45:31 fe[nl]ix: I see several places like OLDLISP= and one place with TARGET/lisp/lisp. Is that right? 14:45:44 (if NIL foo bar) always evaluates to bar, so it is rather pointless to quote anything there 14:45:50 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@91.153.127.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:46:11 but the optimizer of your compiler should take that out already 14:46:29 rtoym: yes 14:46:31 ok 14:46:36 symbole [~yaaic@239.sub-75-198-195.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 14:46:44 but I mean is it good to mention the ' explicitly which coding? 14:46:47 to say 14:46:54 (if '() foo bar) 14:47:01 or you use NIL instead? 14:47:08 it's better to leave the if out completely. 14:47:13 I know they both mean FALSE 14:47:17 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:29 yeah but this is just an example... 14:47:32 NIL and '() are the same thing 14:47:40 usually, conditions are not compile time constants. so using quote is completely pointless 14:47:44 if will always have some kinda testing expression 14:47:51 ok 14:47:52 that's the point 14:48:02 you want the expression to be evaluated 14:48:06 yeah 14:48:09 => don't turn the evaluator of 14:48:12 thats why I was kinda confused 14:48:15 ok np 14:48:18 get your point now 14:48:26 I am reading "land of lisp" 14:48:30 its pretty good :) 14:48:39 cool :) i'm still waiting for my copy 14:49:01 I just ordered the PDF 14:49:02 online 14:49:30 if you're learning `that whole lisp thing' from scratch, also look at SICP. it's a very nice comprehensive book about the basics of programming 14:49:53 yeah I read quite a few chapters from there 14:49:58 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:50:04 though its examples are in Scheme yeah? 14:50:23 I have done some ML and Erlang... so now getting into CommonLisp 14:50:24 yep. but for exercises, it doesn't make that much of a difference. 14:50:44 the differences mainly show when you do real life stuff. 14:50:48 i agree its a well written book 14:52:09 fe[nl]ix: Ok. I think only the TARGET/lisp/lisp needs it. All uses of OLDLISP are through $BUILDWORLD, which runs build-world.sh which includes -nositeinit. I can do the experiment, but it would help if you added -nositeinit only to TARGET/lisp/lisp 14:53:29 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:55:16 rtoym: just a moment 14:56:29 *rtoym* is running the experiment himself now. But independent confirmation would be good. 14:58:13 enupten [~neptune@117.254.157.164] has joined #lisp 14:58:15 edlinde: I tend to think of NIL as more idiomatic than () 14:58:33 syntard_ [~quassel@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 14:58:37 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-20.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:58:46 -!- syntard_ [~quassel@74.112.63.251] has quit [Client Quit] 14:58:47 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.34.11.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:59:08 syntard_ [~quassel@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 14:59:41 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:01:17 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:01:54 acid_rain [~jbvg@178.135.13.243] has joined #lisp 15:02:42 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 15:03:29 fe[nl]ix: That works for me. Only need -nositeinit with TARGET/lisp/lisp. 15:03:40 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:05:16 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has joined #lisp 15:06:41 rtoym: it worked 15:07:53 -!- xyxxyyy2 [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:08:12 q 15:08:58 fe[nl]ix: Thanks for checking. Sorry for the trouble. I'll check in the changes now. 15:09:22 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:01 -!- syntard_ [~quassel@74.112.63.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:04 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:32 -!- acid_rain [~jbvg@178.135.13.243] has left #lisp 15:13:47 vieq [~vieq@metabug/vieq] has joined #lisp 15:14:41 -!- vieq [~vieq@metabug/vieq] has left #lisp 15:15:50 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-97-108.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:16:12 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 630 seconds] 15:19:02 Conotations. () = empty program; '() = empty list data; NIL = false boolean; 'NIL = symbol named "NIL". 15:20:10 pjb: now, wouldn't it be nice if those 4 values weren't all EQL ? 15:20:31 <_death> those 4 values aren't eql 15:20:53 fe[nl]ix: It's never been a problem for me in practice 15:21:10 <_death> their evaluations are.. and it would be annoying if they weren't 15:21:31 that's a matter of taste 15:21:56 i'd much prefer separate values for the three uses 15:22:05 _death: have you come up with new terminology when you claimed that? 15:22:14 _death: what's the "evaluation"? 15:22:20 dlowe: never stuck a NIL in an ECASE, wonder for half an hour why isn't it working, then figure out that ECASE is treating that as (), matching nothing ? 15:22:23 <_death> jdz: huh? 15:22:29 -!- _death is now known as adeht 15:22:49 jdz: I mean the result of evaluating them 15:22:53 or try to specialize a method on lists and booleans 15:23:06 or try to serialize a lisp value as JSON or SQL, but now know what it's supposed to denote 15:23:09 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.105.166] has joined #lisp 15:23:19 adeht: yeah, sorry, i'm reading the spec now 15:23:38 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.157.164] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:23:40 dlowe: of course, one slowly gets the habit of using (NIL), but it's still annoying 15:23:45 adeht: but how can you talk about values without evaluation? 15:23:58 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 15:24:10 jdz: I use the human-as-reader convention, rather than human-as-evaluator 15:24:26 jdz: e.g., '() is equivalent to (quote ()) 15:24:46 adeht: yes, and the value is nil 15:24:49 jdz: which is a cons whose car is the symbol quote and cadr is () 15:25:11 adeht: if you'd said "those 4 forms aren't eql" instead of what you said... 15:25:22 jdz: in the Lisp community, human-as-reader is the dominant convention.. in the Scheme community, it is human-as-evaluator 15:25:52 jdz: I consider any Lisp form to be a Lisp value 15:26:12 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:26:15 So obviously, (quote ()) doesn't make sense, you have to evaluate that is, it has to be code! 15:26:23 silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:31 therefore () has to be data. 15:26:45 Well, since code is data... 15:27:19 -!- Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:28:14 adeht: if you're working on the forms themselves... 15:28:29 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 15:28:49 or rather, there's a difference of what you consider, and what your program considers 15:28:56 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has left #lisp 15:29:07 jdz: I'm not sure I follow 15:29:43 zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:30:08 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 15:30:11 (assert (not (eql (read-from-string "'()") (read-from-string "()")))) 15:30:21 adeht: if you call a function like this: (foo 'nil), you consider your function receiving (quote nil), but your function receives just nil 15:30:46 jdz: no, that is wrong 15:31:12 jdz: in a function call, the arguments are evaluated 15:31:31 adeht: yes, that's what your program considers 15:32:09 jdz: I don't know that my programs "consider" anything 15:33:26 in the human-as-reader convention, (foo 'nil) is equivalent to (foo . ((quote . (nil . nil)) . nil)) .. it is a cons, not a function call 15:34:04 not in my world, sorry 15:34:09 i might not be a human 15:34:19 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:21 .. 15:34:32 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-206-4.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:34:48 when we talk about code, I'd rather say FOO is a symbol and not 'FOO 15:35:29 enupten [~neptune@117.254.149.238] has joined #lisp 15:35:36 because the latter clearly is not? 15:35:55 i'm probably not on the same meta level as you are, sorry 15:35:56 jdz: again, I'm not sure what your point is 15:36:01 fjellfras [~fjellfras@123.236.183.66] has joined #lisp 15:36:29 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:38 for me, the forms: (), '(), nil, 'nil are not equal, but the values are 15:36:59 jdz: if you take "values" to mean the result of their evaluations 15:37:00 for you, as you said, forms are values, and hence the values are not the same 15:37:25 syntard_ [4a703ffb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 15:37:50 adeht: and how do you cal the result of evaluating something? 15:38:04 values 15:38:23 jdz: the results are values as well 15:38:39 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-aibaztpmcalrtgay] has joined #lisp 15:38:46 jdz: when I want to disambiguate, I say "the result of evaluating X" 15:39:26 _nix001 [~Adium@58.33.111.187] has joined #lisp 15:41:07 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@58.33.111.187] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:41:11 jdz: I think it made sense for me to understand fe[nl]ix's statement in the sense of reading, because a big part of the argument is about analysing programs.. and such an analyser _can_ distinguish between '() (a cons) and NIL (a symbol) 15:41:55 it would still be ambiguous, as the former is the same as 'NIL and the latter as () 15:43:01 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:43:14 so in a non-evaluating context, the ambiguity is between 2 forms, and in an evaluating context it is between 4 forms 15:44:17 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 612 seconds] 15:44:24 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:44 -!- symbole [~yaaic@239.sub-75-198-195.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:44:53 *nikodemus* continues his "put docs up on github" rampage. first (very incomplete!) pass at screamer: http://nikodemus.github.com/screamer/ 15:45:08 -!- cipher [~cipher@c-76-24-16-225.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:46:54 nikodemus: "choise" is not a word with which I'm familiar...is it technical jargon? should it be "choice" instead? 15:48:07 jdz: (and in a human reading text context, there is no ambiguity, as pjb first pointed out) 15:48:19 Xach: thank you 15:48:21 mejja [~chatzilla@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:49:14 nikodemus: nice docs! 15:49:30 *Xach* feels much more inclined to try screamer now 15:49:30 adeht: of course i consider the *forms* different, but calling those forms values is what seems wrong to me 15:49:51 adeht: not forgetting the context, ofc\ 15:50:13 jdz: this is Lisp - forms are values 15:50:17 -!- gcartier [~gcartier@modemcable026.84-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 15:51:11 Xach: fixed 15:51:50 it's funny. originally i just wanted to fix the licence. then i cleaned it up from non-ansisms, and then people deciced i was the maintainer 15:52:40 now i decided that if people send me email using words like "picked up the screamer torch", then i just as well might actually maintain it 15:52:55 accursed british english spellings! 15:52:55 adeht: these are humans - forms are forms 15:53:04 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:18 jdz: no, it's called a tautology :) 15:56:10 btw, I just put my stuff on github too: https://github.com/sionescu 15:56:58 -!- syntard_ [4a703ffb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.74.112.63.251] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:57:19 jdz: this discussion reminded me of the Lisp-to-Dylan converter: http://www.norvig.com/ltd/doc/tool.html .. its reader attempts to distinguish NIL and () 15:57:40 rme: fwiw, I don't think ccl is responsible for the cl-fad screwup, but i hope a clozure person can best suggest a compatible, future-friendly way to fix it. 15:58:43 carlocci [~nes@93.37.223.242] has joined #lisp 15:58:52 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.105.166] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:59:41 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-aibaztpmcalrtgay] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:25 Xach: maybe someone cleverer than me can come up with something. 16:00:50 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 16:01:09 http://paste.pocoo.org/show/285507/ seemed not as future-friendly as i would hope, but maybe that's a mistaken impression 16:01:56 -!- Blkt [~user@160.80.132.241] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please!] 16:04:20 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:04:33 Good evening everyone! 16:04:49 hello beach 16:06:40 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-36-123.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:07:13 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:09:52 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:24 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 16:11:28 -!- fjellfras [~fjellfras@123.236.183.66] has left #lisp 16:13:33 syntard_ [~quassel@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 16:13:47 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:14:02 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-148-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:15:38 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.31.34] has joined #lisp 16:16:00 -!- jeti [~user@p54B46513.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:18:35 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:18:56 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-97-108.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:20:04 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:22:36 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has quit [Ping timeout: 600 seconds] 16:22:36 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 16:23:35 milanj [~milanj_@178-223-158-196.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:26:19 -!- not_andares is now known as andares 16:26:23 -!- naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:26:30 -!- andares [~andares@weldorm-pat.netcom.duke.edu] has quit [Changing host] 16:26:30 andares [~andares@unaffiliated/jacco] has joined #lisp 16:27:24 -!- Jabberwockey [~jgrabarsk@85.22.93.138] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:33:02 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:34:23 -!- syntard_ [~quassel@74.112.63.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:24 benny` [~benny@i577A209C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:35:44 ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has joined #lisp 16:36:05 -!- _nix001 [~Adium@58.33.111.187] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:36:50 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:57 kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:16 naryl [~weechat@213.170.70.141] has joined #lisp 16:43:17 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.23] has joined #lisp 16:44:29 -!- Hun [~Hun@80.81.19.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:33 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 16:46:31 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has joined #lisp 16:46:47 -!- benny` is now known as benny 16:47:07 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:35 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:49:37 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 16:49:37 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:37 prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-10-228.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 16:50:40 gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:16 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.149.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54:17 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:54:48 It looks like parenscript and css-lite have problems when used together ? Symbols clashing or something. 16:56:27 prljavi_hari: in some cases, that is by design, in others, it is accidental. 16:56:55 prljavi_hari: it seems possible that parenscript changed out from under css-lite, but i don't use either one - that's just a guess. 16:57:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.122.132.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:58:30 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@90.165.165.246] has joined #lisp 16:59:39 I think I read something about connection between the two. Maybe I just have to use parenscript package to use css ? 17:03:15 well, css-lite was done by vladimir sedach, and vladimir is also the maintainer of parenscript these days. 17:03:35 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:03:46 so, not much excuse for compatibility skew unless css-lite is abandoned. 17:04:38 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:40 Sometimes clashes mean you're not *intended* to use both. 17:05:02 i know that parenscript originally included some mechanism to manipulate css output. 17:05:06 enupten [~neptune@117.254.156.195] has joined #lisp 17:05:18 i think css-lite took that functionality and extracted it into a stand alone package. 17:06:43 I read now that css-lite can produce parenscript code also 17:07:00 I'll try that way 17:08:25 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:08:38 syntard_ [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 17:09:36 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:10:02 rme: Is there any way for me to add a remark on a trac ticket? 17:10:51 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 17:11:32 Xach: yes, you can add a comment or reply to one. There should be a text area down at the bottom of the page. (You have to be logged in to do so, of course.) 17:11:44 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755a78.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:06 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 17:12:32 I suppose you want to make it clear that you did not write cl-fad... 17:12:41 rme: Aha, a browser restart logged me out and I didn't notice. 17:12:54 Bye! 17:13:03 -!- serichsen [~user@switch1.elmi.uni-bonn.de] has quit [Quit: Feierabend] 17:14:37 anybody familiar with chatzilla? how do I turn off [Info] messages? 17:15:46 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:15:50 never mind, all's fine 17:16:26 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.126.73.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:18:05 in slime mode. when I click C-c C-z, lisp opens in same buffer, can I do anything to make it open in the other buffer? 17:18:26 windows emacs *curse* 17:18:33 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:18:47 It pops into a new buffer 17:18:55 I think your terminology is screwed up 17:19:38 My guess is that you're looking for setting display-buffer-reuse-frames to T in your .emacs 17:20:18 *syntard_* ok, same frame? 17:21:18 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 17:22:55 Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:17 -!- Lis [~Lis@business-092-079-130-087.static.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:23:34 I want it to open in the other "frame", "window" 17:23:41 i'll try nil 17:23:59 syntard_: frames and windows are different in Emacs terminology. 17:24:34 that which I use C-x o to switch to 17:24:34 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:25:07 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.206.23] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:25:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:25:49 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.78.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:25:55 well, on kubuntu it opened in the other thing. 17:26:13 rme: thanks, commented. 17:26:40 syntard_: learn to ue windmove for jumping around windows :) 17:28:24 i'm used to selecting text with those 17:29:09 ok, i'll change keys 17:30:02 *syntard_* tries to edit .emacz 17:31:10 p_l|uni: thanks :) 17:31:20 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 17:34:07 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.156.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:34:40 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:54 why doesn't swank make that nice splash at the end of loading on windows? 17:35:14 or slime 17:35:24 syntard_: you have to load that contrib 17:37:58 parebscript and css-lite both work with just parenscript package. In front of css command you must put css-lite package name and both must be wrapped in str. 17:38:32 Xach: can't figure out which contrib 17:38:58 i use it with sbcl 17:39:09 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 17:39:10 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 17:39:11 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:39:27 syntard_: slime-banner 17:40:23 syntard_: do you already have slime-fancy loaded? 17:41:04 p_l|uni: I just dropped slime in site-lisp and did basic require 17:41:34 syntard_: load slime-fancy 17:41:46 (slime-setup 'slime-fancy) ;; iirc 17:41:58 wrong! 17:42:04 -!- prljavi_hari [~h@dh207-10-228.xnet.hr] has left #lisp 17:42:27 stassats: ? 17:42:33 p_l|uni: ! 17:42:34 jdz [~jdz@host33-109-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:43:05 first, it's (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)), second, slime-fancy doesn't have slime-banner 17:43:22 (defun describe-paths (location edges) (apply #'append (mapcar #'describe-path (cdr (assoc location edges))))) 17:43:35 can someone help me understand what the #' stands for? 17:43:39 stassats: ah, so it doesn't check for single argument 17:43:48 third, i don't like when people use just #\? 17:43:59 edlinde: #'x === (function x) 17:44:14 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.27] has joined #lisp 17:44:16 is it some way of saying that the function name after the #' shouldn't be executed? 17:44:19 edlinde: That returns the function object represented by the symbol which follows #'. 17:44:34 ok 17:44:56 is this the right way of passing funciton names? 17:44:58 edlinde: you can then FUNCALL, APPLY etc. that value 17:45:00 with the # in front 17:45:00 yay, 17:45:04 So if you want to execute a function held by symbol foo, then you could do (funcall #'foo...) 17:45:22 p_l|uni: stassats: put both fancy and banner in the list 17:45:22 p_l|uni: it doesn't have an idiot-proof interface 17:45:26 -!- chewbran1a is now known as chewbranca 17:45:31 stassats: 17:45:38 *stassats: true 17:45:51 syntard_: thanks 17:46:00 now that C-c C-z works correctly as well 17:46:06 so if we are saying something like #'f .. we are saying return the function whose symbol matches f? 17:46:14 *p_l|uni* has 9 elements in the slime-setup argument, starting with slime-fancy 17:46:24 or the name of the function --> "f" is a symbol yeah? 17:46:41 "f" is a string 17:46:46 edlinde: no, return value of (symbol-function ) 17:46:48 edlinde: I think it's more like, "return the function represented by symbol f". 17:47:02 ok 17:47:07 clhs function 17:47:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm 17:47:10 a symbol has several slots, one of them is "function", another is "value" etc. 17:47:34 ok thanks 17:48:40 saac [~saac@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 17:48:46 p_l|uni: what?! 17:49:08 p_l|uni: symbol-function doesn't work on lexical variables 17:50:08 stassats: right, I'm going around it backwards 17:50:41 Xach: nothing, I'm jumping around from one low-level specific detail to another instead of explaining stuff properly... 17:51:17 for lisp functions if I wanted a quick way of knowing what they do ... is there a quick way to do this from emacs/slime? 17:51:22 like a manpage? 17:51:31 I want to know for example what mapcar does 17:51:32 edlinde: C-c C-d h 17:51:52 edlinde: if you're away from slime, you can use URLs of the form http://l1sp.org/cl/ 17:51:58 e.g. http://l1sp.org/cl/mapcar 17:52:10 Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:52:19 ah neat 17:52:24 I like that C command 17:52:25 :) 17:52:26 another way is: M-., but it can lead you too deep into the woods 17:52:32 or http://l1sp.org/search/designator 17:52:55 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-252-116.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53:43 saac_ [~saac@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 17:53:48 -!- saac_ [~saac@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Client Quit] 17:54:28 *Xach* hugs l1sp.org 17:55:12 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.27] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 17:55:54 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-131-69.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:55 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:56:18 (mapcar #'sqrt '(1 2 3 4 5 (7 8) ) ) 17:56:24 i tried someting like that 17:56:27 I know its wrong 17:56:35 but I am trying to understand why this wouldn't work in Lisp 17:56:44 -!- jdz [~jdz@host33-109-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:56:50 I am trying to see how mapcar would work on multiple lists 17:56:54 in this case a nested list 17:57:14 I thought in a Lisp list I could have data of mixed type? 17:57:15 edlinde: It can work on multiple lists: (mapcar #'+ (list 1 1 1 1) (list 10 20 30 40)) 17:57:23 you're trying to run sqrt on (list 7 8) 17:57:39 edlinde: the error is not in the content of the list, but on the applicability of SQRT to a non-number value. 17:57:50 ahh I see 17:57:53 grrr 17:58:01 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 17:58:25 so i could do a car or something yeah? 17:58:52 -!- benny [~benny@i577A209C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:58:56 What do you want to do? 17:59:15 ah nothing ... just messing aorund to learn mapcar 17:59:21 edlinde: you could write a mapleaves function that applies a function to the leaves of a tree. 17:59:34 edlinde: You can pass your own function to mapcar which understand your list. 17:59:37 enupten [~neptune@117.254.169.122] has joined #lisp 17:59:40 edlinde: you could write a lambda that checks if it is a leaf or tree. 17:59:47 right. 17:59:57 hmm it didn't work with a nested list 17:59:59 :( 18:00:08 (mapcar #'car '(1 2 3 4 5 '(7 8) ) ) 18:00:11 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has quit [Quit: superflit] 18:00:16 edlinde: (sqrt (list 1 2)) is not going to work. 18:00:18 you can't apply car to a number 18:00:19 I suppose I got to make it have multiple lists 18:00:24 that's because car on 1 breaks. 18:00:57 ah is it because its treating each element in my list as a list? 18:01:03 like (1) (2) ... 18:01:04 ? 18:01:07 no no 18:01:17 it's treating it as 1 2 ... (7 8) 18:01:22 (car 1) 18:01:25 that doesn't work 18:01:32 edlinde: why do you have (7 8) at the end? 18:01:35 and (sqrt (list 7 8)) also does not work. 18:01:40 (mapcar fun (e1 e2 ... en)) = ((funcall fun e1) (funcall fun e2) ... (funcall fun en)) 18:01:44 are you combining lists? 18:01:46 this is basically what mapcar does 18:02:15 okie gotcha 18:02:31 but I was thinking that say I had a list like ... (1 2 3 4 (5 6)) 18:02:32 Is there an elegant way of mapping one input to two values? 18:02:44 so the last element is a list (5 6) 18:02:46 edlinde: in this particular example, why do you have (5 6) at the end like that? 18:02:47 minion: tell edlinde about gentle 18:02:48 edlinde: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 18:02:52 is that a valid list? 18:02:59 edlinde: that is a valid list, yes. 18:03:04 ok cool 18:03:05 edlinde: how is it turning out that way? 18:03:12 edlinde: what is the LENGTH of that list? 18:03:21 so then if I wanted to do a map on each element of this nested list... what would I use? 18:03:32 length is 5 18:03:37 I would guess 18:03:50 edlinde: You should read Gentle Intro. 18:03:54 you would flatten it 18:04:00 edlinde: You are mapping on each element of the list. There's five elements in the list. 18:04:06 You can flatten the list if that's what you want, or you can map over the tree if you want to keep the structure 18:04:09 -!- mejja [~chatzilla@c-14bee555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 18:04:13 you would turn it into a one big list with all elements from the sub lists 18:04:19 *sykopomp* points out that list* might work in this case. 18:04:21 ok 18:04:28 symbole_: (loop for i in list collect (1+ i) collect (1- i)) 18:04:46 edlinde: Would be easier to help you if you actually told us what you are trying to do 18:05:14 drdo: ah nothing in particular really... am reading through "Land of Lisp" and trying out the code as I go along 18:05:19 stassats: Thanks. 18:05:20 trying to learn lisp by asking basic questions in #lisp, which is counterproductive to both parties 18:05:21 I see 18:05:27 just wanted to understand the kind of stuff I can do with mapcar 18:05:33 I am used to the single map :) 18:05:41 edlinde: mapcar is that single map 18:05:44 you are used to 18:05:50 ah i see 18:05:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-78-229-44.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:06:00 but can map take multiple lists? 18:06:04 yes 18:06:09 stassats: I'm trying to avoid loop, because it looks ugly. But, it sure is concise. 18:06:10 ok didn't know that 18:06:13 someone provided an example before 18:06:15 symbole_: you could use (mapcan (lambda (x) (list (1+ x) (1- x))) but it's ugly and slow 18:06:29 edlinde: ...it depends on the language. I get the impression you're not talking about #'CL:MAP 18:06:33 symbole_: just adjust your glasses 18:06:36 ok this is enough to go on 18:06:42 and loop will no longer look ugly 18:06:53 sykopomp: yeah I was thinking more the ML map 18:06:55 stassats: Probably so. 18:06:59 or in Haskell 18:07:00 sykopomp: I believe he's talking about an ordidary map over a list 18:07:08 edlinde: Yes, then mapcar is that 18:07:17 I'm pretty sure ML/Haskell map takes more than one list. 18:07:33 I don't think they're sequential, either. 18:07:41 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 18:07:55 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:00 I dont think in ML I could form a list like [1, 2, [3,4] ] 18:08:06 edlinde: CL:MAPCAR accepts multiple list arguments, and it executes sequentially. 18:08:20 it would have to be something like [ [1,2,3], [5,6] ] 18:08:32 ok 18:08:36 but you could a tuple 18:08:37 edlinde: ML lists are probably homogeneous 18:08:45 what that means is not (1 2 (3 4)) being acceptable input. It means you can do (mapcar #'+ (list 1 2 3) (list 4 5 6) (list 7 8 9)) 18:08:46 yep they are 18:09:10 sykopomp: yeah different lists 18:09:14 i get it 18:09:44 so that mapcar example is basically in need of a function that acts on lists yeah? 18:09:52 no... 18:09:52 no 18:09:53 I mean coz each arg of that list of lists is a list 18:10:03 edlinde: no. 18:10:19 superflit [~superflit@140.226.47.117] has joined #lisp 18:10:32 but isn't + taking a list? 18:10:40 each time its saying 18:10:46 (+ 1 2 3) 18:10:51 it's taking three arguments. 18:10:53 (+ 4 5 6) 18:10:54 ? 18:10:59 (mapcar fun (a1 a2 ... an) (b1 b2 ... bn)) => ((funcall fun a1 b1) (funcall fun a2 b2) ... (funcall fun an bn)) 18:11:10 for an arbitrary number of lists 18:11:19 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:11:20 it's doing (+ 1 4 7) (+ 2 5 8) ... 18:11:33 but not more than call-arguments-limit 18:11:33 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:11:46 hmm 18:12:34 (mapcar #'strcat (list "1-" "2-" "3-") (list "one" "two" "three")) => ("1-one" "2-two" "3-three") 18:12:48 ok cool 18:13:21 I think there's some very basic confusion here about how evaluation takes place 18:14:44 *syntard_* tries to decide which is less hurtful on the eyes: new courier, consolas or fixedsys 18:15:01 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:15:02 anair_84 [~anair_84@98.149.169.47] has joined #lisp 18:15:06 Why would you be limited to those 3? :P 18:15:13 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 18:15:36 syntard_: a braille display 18:15:44 sykopomp: I got an undefined strcat 18:15:53 for the last example you gave me 18:15:57 drdo: windows emacs. I want dejavu mono 18:16:11 edlinde: (defun strcat (string &rest more-strings) (apply #'concatenate 'string string more-strings)) 18:16:44 sykopomp: why are you special-casing a single string? 18:17:04 stassats: because it looks pretty to me. 18:17:21 but what if i want to concatenate zero strings? 18:17:23 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.116] has joined #lisp 18:17:31 stassats: then that wouldn't work. 18:18:12 too bad, and it's makes as much sense as concatenating one string 18:18:37 of course. Neither of those make much sense. 18:18:39 quite trie :P 18:18:42 *true 18:18:55 syntard_: I recommend Consolas or Monaco, but first configure hinting properly or the font will look bloody "fat" 18:20:17 stassats: honestly, I just didn't remember on the spot whether CONCATENATE required at least one sequence argument, so I went what I thought was the safe route for something pulled out of nowhere. 18:20:48 p_l|uni: consolas looks almost comic, but I've spent enough time picking 18:20:52 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 18:20:54 sykopomp: but you have an arglist display! 18:20:57 or you don't? 18:21:03 syntard_: if it looks comic, it means you have misconfigured font hinting 18:21:19 p_l|uni: I'll check 18:21:34 syntard_: properly configured it resembles fixed more 18:21:48 stassats: I didn't have SLIME immediately available! I apologize for my dreadful laziness :\ 18:21:56 syntard_: http://db.tt/Hr4kFyE <--- have a comparison 18:22:11 *Xach* wonders about a slime-erc contrib 18:22:16 i just realized that ERC doesn't have arglist display 18:22:22 well 18:22:24 Xach: I have that, partly. 18:22:48 robwolfe [~rw@ip-79-175-248-34.cable.smsnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:23:11 M-x slime-arglist RET concatenate RET 18:23:25 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:23:33 tcr: oh nice :) 18:23:39 requires a connection of course 18:23:39 and code completion 18:23:43 (+ 1 2) => 3 18:23:44 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:44 -!- silenius [~silenus@cpe-76-169-35-122.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:23:48 there we go 18:24:06 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:07 syntard_: that shot was two terminals, the one on the left with proper hinting, the one on the right the way it was by default. 18:26:11 p_l|uni: http://i.imgur.com/faLUo.jpg 18:26:38 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@98.149.169.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:26:38 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@chello212186106204.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:26:49 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:58 ouch. 18:27:00 my eyes 18:27:08 hehe 18:27:18 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:27:20 ach 18:27:59 dean [~deanz@64.241.87.62] has joined #lisp 18:28:07 not sure if this can be improved 18:28:25 symbole [~yaaic@239.sub-75-198-195.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 18:28:35 -!- Ogedei [~user@p5DDB0D02.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:29:12 Can't you just use dejavu sans or something? 18:29:22 drdo: not available 18:29:31 download it? 18:29:33 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 18:29:38 syntard_: Vista or 7? 18:29:42 xp 18:29:42 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:29:42 -!- dean [~deanz@64.241.87.62] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:01 dean [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:01 syntard_: I'm withholding all help as long as you run an outdated OS :> 18:30:11 -!- dean [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:11 windows doesn't support ttf? 18:30:23 anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:27 dean [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:37 drdo: does. XP is simply outdated, and the hinting is greatly improved in Vista/7 18:30:56 syntard_: now here's a pretty one. http://i.imgur.com/2zPAj.png 18:31:05 Not even going to ask why you would be using windows in the first place :P 18:31:26 syntard_: I hope you at least enabled ClearType if you have LCD display 18:31:27 -!- dean [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31:54 schmrkc: i don't have my binoculars 18:31:57 schmrkc: nice 18:32:09 schmrkc: what font and point-size? 18:32:15 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:32:20 p_l|uni: monospace. 7pt. 18:32:26 I second what stassats said :P 18:32:28 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 18:33:04 I use a 24" screen. 1920 res. I read it just fine ? 18:33:20 :( 18:33:30 I'm stuck with using a 13" monitor laptop 18:33:31 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:33:38 nice 18:33:43 porta-hacking 18:33:46 when you want to add font on xp, the file browser is straight from 3.1 18:33:54 Envy Code R which I'm using is too small at 7pt 18:34:27 syntard_: untrue, given the fact that 3.1 source code doesn't work on NT (there's an emulator for 16bit binaries, though) 18:34:29 still my favorite lisp hacking font: http://i.imgur.com/Hdxct.png 18:34:31 and i'm stuck with 19" 18:34:39 via Quadrescence 18:34:45 dean [~deanz@onshore-gw.logika.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:46 Oh so that is at least something that win 7 offers over the previous version 18:35:16 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:35:27 drdo: thanks for the suggestion, I downloaded dejavu 18:35:28 benny [~benny@i577A348A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:35:32 Guthur: I'm unsure whether it was Vista or 7 that added it, but there's now an interactive font calibration tool 18:35:35 I was discussing the value of windows upgrades since XP recently, and the only thing anyone really mentioned was the very vague, 'its more usable' 18:36:02 upgrade to linux? 18:36:22 Guthur: also "actually supports wireless", "has sudo", "doesn't let you use FAT for system volume", etc. etc. 18:36:49 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:05 sykopomp: best font, what's the name? :P 18:37:22 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.169.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:37:27 I do actually find my current linux distro more accessible than windows 18:37:47 Did anyone ever find windows accessible? 18:38:19 drdo, well I don't know, I did live in ignorance for a long time 18:38:46 I didn't even know about Lisp until about 1.5 years ago 18:38:51 but you can have accessibility support in windows! 18:38:58 drdo: Windows probably supports accessibility very well. 18:39:04 with a screen magnifier, to read schmrkc's code 18:39:17 ^^ 18:39:22 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:39:34 I meant more control over the various font sizes used 18:39:44 Windows just seems to have 'use large fonts' 18:39:48 that's XP though 18:39:56 I never felt windows was very good from a general usability point of view 18:39:59 *ivan4th* did access his linux box over ssh from taiga over intermittent gprs to do some git merges, this is what I call 'accessible'... 18:40:03 drdo: I don't know. You'll have to ask quad. 18:40:23 windows has windows 18:40:52 Then again, i'm using os x atm, which is bad as well 18:41:04 minion: movitz 18:41:05 movitz: Movitz is a Common Lisp implementation that targets the x86 PC architecture "on-the-metal". http://www.cliki.net/movitz 18:41:07 this is great! 18:41:20 stassats, is it really> 18:41:21 ? 18:41:29 I thought it had more or less died 18:41:54 how can it die? the sources are there! just pick it up and go 18:42:08 they bit rot, everyone knows that! 18:43:29 Due to CL ability to standstill, the code will be forever immortalized 18:44:09 until x86 dies in a fire 18:44:46 drdo: in general, it is quite usable, but then you have the concentration on "new users" in some software (aka "being user friendly") and some applications don't follow the guidelines (similar guidelines exist for OSX, Android and iOS etc.) 18:45:30 p_l|uni: the main problem i have with both of those is the nazi attitude (way worse in os x) 18:46:24 Windows isn't really nazi more isolationist, 'there is only windows' 18:46:26 drdo: it's not actually "nazi attitude" as much as "common guidelines for the application to fit in". There are cases where they *should not* be followed, but those are usually specialized or complex applications 18:46:49 consider AutoCAD, for example 18:46:57 p_l|uni: guidelines should be just that, guidelines, they shouldn't be enforced 18:47:19 drdo: they aren't, but the fact that they are rarely followed, especially on windows, makes my eyes hurt 18:47:25 though it's better these days 18:48:53 enupten [~neptune@117.254.149.182] has joined #lisp 18:49:00 consider SBCL for example, it's not great on windows 18:49:01 p_l|uni: I don't like the default window manager they use in os x for example, and there's no easy way to customize it or change it 18:50:40 drdo: there's no way, actually, because that part is completely undocumented 18:51:23 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:51:27 -!- anair_84 [~anair_84@cpe-98-149-169-47.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:51:33 dnm_ [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:45 -!- Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-194-233.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Some days you are the pigeon, other days the statue.] 18:52:13 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-194-233.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:18 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.149.182] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:48 p_l|uni: And this is just an illustration of the "everyone is the same, if you don't like it exactly like this you suck, now fuck off" policy 18:54:29 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:55:32 super__ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 18:55:35 drdo: no, that's not it. What is an example of it is how OSX reacts to non-Apple keyboard layouts 18:56:01 gz__ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:06 (down to OSX having messages that call the behaviour "Apple B&D programming practices") 18:56:33 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:27 keyboard layouts? What are you talking about? :P 18:57:43 that's probably a legacy from when they were using Pascal for much of their systems programming 18:57:59 the B&D terminology 18:58:13 bondage and discipline? 18:58:25 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 18:58:48 yeah 18:58:52 -!- gz__ [Clozure@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 19:00:19 -!- gz__ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:01:24 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:03:23 plediii [~plediii@adsl-99-62-29-224.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:24 Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:24 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-68-51-145-83.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:04:24 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 19:04:25 i get a CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 16343(tid 3027368848): 19:04:25 Signalling HEAP-EXHAUSTED in a WITHOUT-INTERRUPTS. 19:04:26 The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. 19:04:26 Continuing with fingers crossed. message within slime, as i started to test (cl-ppcre-test:run-all-tests) 19:05:06 and the test stalls at test 48 just 19:05:20 homie: Don't do that, then. 19:05:21 as slime-events buffer shows 19:05:28 Xach ? 19:05:31 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 19:05:40 homie: What is your question? 19:06:11 Xach: do i have to start with a greater dyamic-heap-size or so ? 19:06:22 or even stack-size 19:06:32 homie: An easier fix is: don't run the cl-ppcre tests. 19:06:47 hmmm, how do they test then ? 19:09:27 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:09:27 drdo: if you have non-system-supplied keyboard layout in use, any Apple program (including Finder) will switch to one provided with OSX. 19:09:49 A friend of mine to avoid that deleted all keyboard layout leaving only the one he wanted to use 19:09:51 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:09:55 aceluck [~aceluck@175.144.75.18] has joined #lisp 19:10:14 ... somewhere in logs he found reference to this, called an "obvious attempt to escape Apple's B&D programming practice" 19:10:19 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 19:11:16 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.47.117] has quit [Quit: superflit] 19:13:10 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:14:09 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has joined #lisp 19:14:17 Xach: even better fix: avoid cl-ppcre :P 19:14:29 p_l|uni: That's just sad 19:15:03 And i don't understand why someone would get out of their way just to restrict their product's functionality 19:15:40 -!- gz [gz@clozure-93943513.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout] 19:15:59 drdo: so that you can't hurt yourself 19:16:22 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 19:16:50 -!- gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:17:11 stassats: Users don't like to be treat like they are children or stupid 19:17:14 *treated 19:17:20 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp0225.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:17:28 neither do children 19:17:46 drdo: there's a billion dollar company that got that way by saying differently 19:17:50 The difference here is that children are in fact children 19:18:13 dlowe: which one ? 19:18:20 fe[nl]ix: Apple :p 19:18:29 lol, I thought so :D 19:18:33 Apple's current success still baffles me 19:18:41 This was my first apple product 19:18:51 And i'm definetly not buying any more 19:18:52 drdo: perhaps because you're thinking most people are like yourself? 19:19:11 drdo: there's not much to understand.. they make products that people like. 19:19:16 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:19:46 drewc: Yes well, that's obvious, what i don't understand is how someone can enjoy being used by their computer instead of the other way around 19:19:53 most people view computers as their web/email/video game toaster, and they don't care about the infinite possibilities inherant in their toaster. 19:20:11 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:20:32 That's fine if you advertise your product as being strictly for that 19:20:42 [see Apple's ads] 19:20:42 This is a general purpose computer 19:20:56 francogrex [~user@212.36.208.12] has joined #lisp 19:20:57 sure, to you. 19:20:58 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-116.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:21:14 it's just a side effect, so that others can implement all the toasting more easily 19:21:20 drdo: can you accept that you don't represent the typical consumer? 19:21:31 drewc: yes 19:22:17 congratulations, you can now feel superior! 19:22:26 Yay me 19:22:32 and probably smug and weenie, in case you're using lisp! 19:23:04 Anyway, the solution there is not to restrict by force imo 19:24:00 Just don't make it accessible from the pretty ui 19:24:20 that's what CL did to you, where you can modify almost anything 19:24:20 and make it pop a big disclamier "THIS IS KILL YOUR COMPUTER" when you open the terminal 19:24:24 or something like that 19:24:30 *THIS WILL 19:24:39 the problem with allowing things to be done many ways easily is that you look bad if any of them break, and apple figures that having things work smoothly is more important than allowing things to be done in a variety of ways 19:24:49 *syntard_* likes THIS IS KILL better 19:24:55 :D 19:25:13 and kittens instead of COMPUTER 19:25:23 -!- francogrex [~user@212.36.208.12] has quit [Client Quit] 19:25:35 znutar: Yes i have thought about that, and is probably the reason why they do it 19:26:03 that's unsatisfyingly non-conspiratorial 19:26:41 But i think having a clear separation of Naughty Stuff(TM) and Regular Stuff(TM) works well 19:26:57 and warn the user when he enters Naughty Stuff(TM) territory 19:27:09 dlowe: but they are sponsored by the anti-intellectualistic jews 19:27:30 The feeling I got talking to engineers there was always that they really felt that keeping their commitment to making this small core of stuff working perfectly and keeping that small core of things as small and tight as they could manage was the only way they could beat the competition long term. 19:28:06 small cores are good 19:28:17 generality is also good 19:28:36 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 19:28:54 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:28:55 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.78.25] has joined #lisp 19:31:14 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 19:32:03 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 19:32:29 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:33:02 jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-025-078.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:39:59 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.166.167.81] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:40:25 -!- robwolfe [~rw@ip-79-175-248-34.cable.smsnet.pl] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:41:05 Efthymios [~kvirc@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:45 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 19:42:53 -!- syntard_ [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:43:04 silenius [~silenus@rrcs-64-183-24-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:44:06 syntard_ [~chatzilla@74.112.63.251] has joined #lisp 19:44:16 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has joined #lisp 19:45:24 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:03 Anyone know the ASDF magic needed to short-circuit the pathname translation stuff when compiling? 19:49:15 I'm trying to load some code with ASDF, but I don't want it to try to use the .config compilation cache directory. 19:49:18 (asdf:disable-output-translation) 19:49:29 sorry, plural 19:49:31 (asdf:disable-output-translations) 19:49:43 Will that have the effect I want? 19:50:06 Do you want it to put fasls next to source files? 19:50:29 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:50:47 Yes, that would work. In the environment I'm running ASDF, there's no home directory location for the current user. 19:50:59 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:51:04 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:11 I think the command I just showed will do that. 19:51:48 ok, thanks, I'll give it a try. 19:52:29 reb: you could just export HOME=/tmp then 19:54:48 Yes, that's another good idea. 19:55:14 Thanks. Disabling output translations seems to work too. 19:57:29 when does one use apply as opposed to mapcar? 19:57:40 just a bit confused between the two 19:57:45 uh 19:58:58 i know with apply its when I want to apply a function to each element in a list 19:59:29 but then I thought mapcar does the same thing yeah... except it was picking elements from each sublist when supplied with a #'+ 19:59:47 edlinde: you know wrong. 20:00:15 what about apply? 20:02:13 edlinde: (apply #'+ (list 1 2 3 4)) is pretty much (+ 1 2 3 4) 20:02:36 ok get that 20:02:48 what about mapcar? 20:03:33 it just gave me back (1 2 3 4) when I replaced apply with mapcar 20:03:42 edlinde: (mapcar #'+ (list 1 2 3 4)) calls mapcar with an argument from the list, and creates a new list with the result. then the next argument. 20:03:45 yes 20:03:49 (+ 1) => 1 20:03:53 (+ 2) => 2 20:04:13 ahh 20:04:26 so with apply we end up getting some sort of an accumulated value? 20:04:34 Oo 20:04:41 no no. 20:04:46 while mapcar returns back exactly the same number of elements in the original list? 20:04:54 apply calls the function and uses the other arg as argument to it. 20:04:56 ok sorry 20:04:57 apply applies a function to some arguments, that's it, no magic 20:05:07 edlinde: Not sorry enough to read a book, though? 20:05:14 I guess I am trying to understand the pattern for apply and mapcar 20:05:17 mapcar iterates the list and applies fn to each element, generating a new list as it goes. 20:05:32 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu256.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 20:05:33 edlinde: better forget apply for the moment. REDUCE is the easier thing to understand 20:05:36 *syntard_* is reading many books 20:05:46 edlinde: Stop trying to reason about them based on what they output and start trying to reason about them based on a description of their semantics. 20:06:06 (it has the same result, but it does things differently) 20:06:45 ok cool 20:06:46 thanks 20:07:03 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:07:15 Xach: I am asking questions as I read about them... I just started reading common lisp last night 20:07:21 so cut me some slack here 20:07:25 edlinde: which book are you using? 20:07:27 edlinde: No. 20:07:36 Land of Lisp 20:07:40 oh god 20:07:46 edlinde: If you're sloppy with your thinking and wasting your own time and mine, you don't get slack. 20:07:57 minimal and sleek but still so clever you will freak! 20:07:57 I think that book is starting to get a bad rap already 20:08:13 edlinde: (mapcar #'+ (list 1 2 3 4)) `(,(+ 1) ,(+ 2) ,(+ 3) ,(+ 4)) vs. (apply #'+ (list 1 2 3 4)) (+ 1 2 3 4) 20:08:17 I think its good 20:08:17 oh, this is the SPEL guy 20:08:29 what's SPEL ? 20:08:33 casting SPELs 20:08:41 :0 20:08:46 http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 20:08:55 schmrkc: thanks.. its clearer now 20:08:58 I know, sorry, didn't have the patience to read that 20:09:53 edlinde: Do you understand what mapcar is? I thought you had understood it before 20:10:20 drdo: yeah I do now.. I did get mapcar... just didn't get when to use apply and when to do a mapcar 20:10:21 thats all 20:10:24 now I know 20:10:30 edlinde: I'd recommend gentle. Haven't read land of lisp :) 20:11:22 ok will read that next 20:13:56 yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:06 what is an example of a "special operator"? 20:14:32 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:14:38 Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 20:14:46 IF 20:14:57 AND 20:14:58 progv 20:14:59 clhs special 20:14:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm 20:15:11 that's not a function? 20:15:16 udzinari: not exactly, no (: 20:15:17 (those) 20:15:29 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:33 yates: functions have all their arguments evaluated before the function is called 20:15:37 function calls cause all their arguments to be evaluated first. 20:15:39 gabnet [~gabnet@142.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:42 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755a78.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:45 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.31.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:15:47 it's nice to have agreement! 20:15:58 so, you wouldn't ever be able to break out of your recursive solution (: 20:16:03 yates: a special operator is a syntactic form that does not directly follow regular evaluation rules for its arguments. They're like macros, except macros have an expansion. 20:16:12 antifuchs: gah, my bad (: 20:16:18 ok, thanks 20:16:33 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:16:34 yates: they make a lot more sense if you've implemented a simple metacircular interpreter :) 20:16:35 I wonder if one could comb through the #lisp logs and literally generate a FAQ from the most common questions 20:16:50 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:17:03 hah 20:17:05 probably (: 20:17:22 dlowe: I like questions and answers of the form "How to I do frozble?" "Use CL:FROZBLE." e.g. nth, butlast, etc 20:17:22 sykopomp: oh heck, i made one of those when i was 3 20:17:25 land of #lisp 20:17:40 I am trying to write a bot that does that, plus some other neat stuff 20:17:42 haven't had one of those lately, though. 20:17:59 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:17:59 "How do I find the position of an element?" is one I've seen on several occasions. 20:18:14 right after i discovered my first finite, abelian simple group... 20:18:18 e.i. automatically answers newcomer questions using /msg 20:18:35 udzinari: that borders on too much helpfulness 20:18:48 yates: metacircular interpreters aren't rocket science or advanced mathematics. 20:18:59 I guess it doesn't actually fall over it though, as long as it's a privmsg 20:19:00 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 20:19:14 you'd still need to figure out which are the most common questions 20:19:19 land of lisp looks pretty sweet. 20:20:46 -!- dborba [~dborba@pool-74-105-202-55.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:21:26 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 20:22:46 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:27:51 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:28:16 laevus [~marc@dsl-185-157-180.dynamic.wa.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:28:37 schmrkc: did you mention the gentle introduction from Touretzky? 20:28:45 schmrkc: was that the book you recommend? 20:29:49 -!- hdurer_ [~holly@home.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:29:49 hdurer_ [~holly@pdpc/supporter/active/hdurer] has joined #lisp 20:29:54 edlinde: that is a very good book indeed 20:30:24 I saw that it had a lot of functions laid out properly and well explained 20:30:27 -!- lune [~claire@97.76.48.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:30:50 lune [~claire@97.76.48.98] has joined #lisp 20:31:57 ... you know... the modern web applications are kinda like mainframes of old. At least that's the vibe I got after working with z/OS 20:33:28 p_l|uni: decentralization continues 20:34:50 syntard_: not exactly 20:35:01 varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:35:02 decentralization was back with applications on PCs 20:35:44 now we're back to "intelligent terminals" with a nicer interop between different applications on different "mainframes" :P 20:36:06 p_l|uni: I mean, efforts to decentralize webapps continue, at least in my head 20:36:12 Hey all, what's the best way to pull out functions into different files and then load them from one main file? 20:36:22 seangrove: ASDF 20:36:26 I'm using (load #P).. 20:36:27 heh 20:36:28 minion: tell seangrove about ASDF 20:36:29 seangrove: please see ASDF: ASDF (Another System Definition Facility) is an extensible build facility for Common Lisp software. http://www.cliki.net/ASDF 20:36:33 sabayonuser [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:48 Oh wow, this is a real room! 20:36:50 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:36:59 Finally, no longer waiting hours for feedback. 20:37:27 but first... how do i changemy nick? i've always been an IRC noob 20:37:36 marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has joined #lisp 20:37:47 minion: tell sabayonuser about irc 20:37:48 sabayonuser: have a look at irc: There is a lisp channel at Freenode (formerly the Open Projects Network) where several lispers waste time. http://www.cliki.net/irc 20:37:49 sabayonuser: Google for some IRC tutorials. 20:37:50 -!- laevus [~marc@dsl-185-157-180.dynamic.wa.co.za] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:38:04 Was worth a shot :) 20:38:12 sabayonuser: just /nick 20:38:20 Probably have to reregister it with freenode 20:38:21 laevus [~marc@dsl-185-157-180.dynamic.wa.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:38:50 isn't there a command you're familiar with, something along the lines of /msg NickServ nick *nick*? 20:39:12 if you must talk about IRC, please do it elsewhere 20:39:46 well, i just want to make my nick less pretentious so my Lisp questions aren't brushed off. :/ 20:39:54 you must learn lisp before changing your nick 20:40:12 p_l|uni: Is ASDF meant for personal projects? 20:40:36 seangrove: yes 20:40:36 Ah, found the page on cliki, nvm 20:40:43 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:41:05 I picked up lisp a few days ago, and have already made a simple number guessing game, as well as two player pac-man. Is that enough to want to dive in further? 20:41:14 -!- Efthymios [~kvirc@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:41:29 sabayonuser: if you want 20:41:50 -!- laevus [~marc@dsl-185-157-180.dynamic.wa.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 20:41:51 minion: lisp 20:41:51 lisp: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 20:42:00 nooo 20:42:31 syntard_: I already own Practical Common Lisp, and my copy of Land of Lisp is on the way. :D 20:42:36 sabayonuser: Sure. Go further. 20:43:13 sabayonuser: of course you want to go on, until it's too late 20:43:14 *p_l|uni* needs to find LiSP again, had seen the book somewhere but can't find it anymore 20:44:11 all right, i'll go figure out how too change my nick elsewhere to something less fanboyish (thanks, generic nick!) and then i'll be back to pester you all with my questions. 20:44:36 But don't worry. I usually tend to google before seeking help. 20:44:56 ... 20:45:15 *p_l|uni* just found a copy of LiSP in djvu... lying somewhere in his storage 20:45:41 -!- sabayonuser is now known as osoleve 20:45:52 osoleve: that's... not in evidence at the moment 20:46:11 which? that i have the books? 20:46:12 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:46:21 ohhh 20:46:23 the google part 20:46:56 well, i qualified with USUALLY, haha. i just figured if the command was short, someone would spare me te time of googling by just saying the magic words 20:47:48 caelan [~caelan@65.122.173.100] has joined #lisp 20:48:32 I really hope I didn't start off on the bad foot here; 20:48:44 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:49:02 Lisp has really revolutionized programming for me and rekindled my passion, and I'd hoped i'd mesh well with the community 20:49:14 is there a slime configuration option to get it to put fasl's in the same ~/.cache/common-lisp/ hierarchy that asdf2 uses when you C-c C-k a file? 20:49:17 osoleve: Cool. Keep at it! 20:49:58 Efthymios [~Efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:04 Fade: not entirely 20:50:09 Fade: I figure one could try to make it call a necessary ASDF command, but I think it normally calls (compile-file) 20:50:30 the worst is when you spend a while googling, and find the answer right after you ask. 20:50:36 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:50:46 Fade: see slime-compile-file-options, but it is static 20:50:49 Is there an ettiquete involved in asking questions pertaining to using emacs, even if it's for Common Lisp? 20:51:07 only if it's about slime 20:51:22 it is! is there a separate channel specifically for that? 20:51:25 or redshank, or paredit. 20:51:29 i don't want to step on any toes. 20:51:34 osoleve: #emacs for emacs-specific questions. 20:51:39 osoleve: #emacs@irc.freenode.net 20:51:40 osoleve: yes, it's called #lisp 20:51:49 osoleve: #lispcafe for socializing 20:52:07 try real cafe instead 20:52:20 for socializing 20:52:22 osoleve: also, on-topic discussion have priority over off-topic, even if you see people talk pretty off-topic sometimes 20:52:24 -!- Efthymios [~Efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Efthymios] 20:53:01 okay then... how do I get slime working in emacs? I trid M-x slime, but it kicks out an error. 20:53:11 and the topic police have been cracking down. We need to get tough on trolls and babble. :) 20:53:15 and none of the lisp-related options are available for selection 20:53:35 osoleve: are you using Quicklisp already? 20:54:02 -!- xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:54:02 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:03 no, i'm currently making the switch from SBCL to CLISP, at the recommendation of the author of Land of Lisp 20:54:06 *Xach* needs to update quicklisp-slime-helper before the dist update 20:54:18 He got it backwards. 20:54:21 osoleve: You might be interested in Lispbox (http://www.gigamonkeys.com/lispbox/). Emacs bundled with SLIME. 20:54:35 is it easy to configure on sabayon? 20:54:56 -!- s0ng0ku [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:55:12 you better not be interested in it 20:55:26 it's old as something very old 20:55:36 what, lispbox? 20:55:42 yes 20:56:03 lispbox might get a facelift sometime soon. 20:56:15 osoleve: and don't switch from SBCL to Clisp 20:56:35 osoleve: get quicklisp, and install swank and quicklisp-slime-helper, and follow the instructions. 20:56:36 I don't know, i'm getting used to sbcl, but this new book works exclusively in clisp so i'm using clisp just for the purposes of the exercises 20:56:55 drewc: what are the advantages of quicklisp over sbcl? 20:56:55 exclusively in clisp? 20:57:04 drewc: quicklisp-slime-helper installs swank for you. 20:57:13 osoleve: quicklisp is complementary to sbcl. 20:57:28 drewc: well, a few chapters use non-standard functions, or so they say 20:57:34 osoleve: quicklisp is a system to install libs or software 20:57:48 osoleve: you can use it in many implementations 20:59:01 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:24 i like the book, but i really wish he hadn't used CLISP... we're going to get hoardes of newbs wanting to use clisp now. almost as bad as gigamonkey choosing allegroserve :P 20:59:58 that's a certainty. 21:00:04 i never made it all the way through gigamonkey, i didn't like the order in which concepts were introduced 21:00:05 drewc: What's wrong with CLISP (asking because I don't know)? 21:00:21 lispbox is about the only sensible way to use emacs + slime + CL on windows 21:00:36 Guthur: i'm on Sabayon Linux, not windows 21:00:53 oh, well then not much point imho 21:01:14 not much point to... 21:01:14 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:21 Guthur: I tried lisp-cabinet once on my work machine, worked quite nice 21:01:22 symbole_: there's nothing particularly wrong with itm per-se, just that it's not the best option for someone who wants support around here 21:01:37 udzinari, Never heard of it. 21:01:39 *Guthur* googles 21:01:43 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiUdthoFO-k 21:02:09 symbole_: and clisp is pants under slime apparently 21:02:19 udzinari, Looks interesting, cheers for mentioning it 21:02:21 another question: is there a way to enable stacktrace in sbcl? I have a hell of a time finding bugs because it is so vague. 21:03:08 drewc: I see. 21:03:23 osoleve: do you use slime? 21:03:24 clisp is pretty eccentric. 21:03:48 although Xach swears by it's loop implementation as a 'lint for loop' sort of deal. 21:04:12 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has joined #lisp 21:04:25 osoleve: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/ <--- read, esp chapter 5 21:04:31 @adehnt: it shows up as a dropdown in emacs, but maybe 90% of all entries are greyed out, and the ones that aren't don't do anything 21:04:41 osoleve: in sbcl debugger, you can type :backtrace.. in slime the debugger shows the backtrace by default 21:04:56 adeht: ahhh, thank you 21:05:52 i've only been here a hot minute, but it's already been the friendliest, most helpful group i've had on IRC (not that I have much experience).So, thanks! 21:07:11 -!- symbole [~yaaic@239.sub-75-198-195.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:07:31 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:09:30 _6502_ [4e0cf907@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.12.249.7] has joined #lisp 21:09:41 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:10:16 -!- silenius [~silenus@rrcs-64-183-24-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:10:19 clisp isn't eccentric! 21:10:29 just make sure you use -ansi :) 21:11:11 how do i reference an index in a list? 21:11:18 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:11:31 nth or elt 21:11:41 *googles8 21:11:43 thanks 21:12:05 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 21:12:19 don't google, l1sp.org 21:12:23 Efthymios [~Efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:48 <_6502_> doh... i just got slapped in the face; remove-if makes a copy but it's not a fresh copy so sorting the result is a no-no. this is tricky 21:12:54 gz [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:54 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:28 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:14:16 sort should be renamed nsort. 21:14:18 meh 21:14:23 silenius [~silenus@rrcs-64-183-24-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:14:36 yep 21:14:45 nah, it should have an IN-PLACE keyword parameter 21:15:00 loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has joined #lisp 21:15:13 <_6502_> fare: indeed... my first surprise was to see that sort is destructive; then i saw that in my code i was sorting what i thought was a copy (result of remove-if) 21:15:42 and it should always remember the head CONS and keep in it the head of the result. 21:15:42 *_6502_* now is using a "sort-copy" function instead :-) 21:17:33 <_6502_> fare: i dont' agree... i can expect the head of a list passed to a destructive function to change; this is common 21:18:14 <_6502_> fare: i also can understand than destructive sorting can be much more efficient... but it should just be named nsort as you said... that "n" would make one think :-) 21:19:16 <_6502_> is there a sort of lint for lisp that finds this kind of errors ? 21:19:18 -!- loxs [~loxs@78.90.124.179] has quit [Client Quit] 21:19:32 also, NCONC should probably be deprecated in the standard -- it's a source of aggravation for no performance gain (and when you WANT the side-effect, you're big enough to do it yourself) 21:19:37 _6502_: the n is only there for functions that have a non-destructive equivalent 21:19:43 you don't get an NSETF (: 21:20:08 antifuchs, well, I just developed a pure version of SETF... 21:20:16 delete should be called nremove :P 21:20:20 but then, you are you (-; 21:20:24 <_6502_> antifuchs: indeed it would be nice to provide both sort and nsort (where sort could be implemented as a chaning of list-copy and nsort) 21:20:51 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:20:51 that said, I need to improve the interface to make it more composable. 21:21:46 <_6502_> i don't think it's ok to prevent programmers to do anything they want to do... what should be prevented is the involuntary error 21:22:12 _6502_: I think one problem with this was that you non-destructive sort would have to make a copy of the thing that was passed in... think displaced arrays. 21:22:20 *_6502_* loves rplaca 21:22:51 yikes 21:23:00 -!- Efthymios [~Efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:23:07 where the hell does the name "rplaca" come from? 21:23:24 drdo: LISP 21:23:28 Efthymios [~Efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:29 is this the place where i can link to a pastebin of a short snippet of code to have other people review it? 21:23:40 drewc: sorry? 21:23:45 I am refactoring some functions to make them more lisp-y 21:23:45 osoleve: for a small fee, yes 21:24:00 i have pocket lint and some bits of string 21:24:06 good enough 21:24:18 drdo: replace car. ISTR in early lisps there was a performance win if your function name was shorter than 7 chars (: 21:24:24 the two functions are here: 21:24:25 http://pastebin.com/0qEgLesM 21:24:41 the first function was the major change (never really used (dolist) before 21:24:42 <_6502_> drdo: it's the original name of a function that replaces the content of the car of a cell 21:24:57 and the second function weas just changing it to yomcply with the first function 21:25:08 _6502_: no, really? the question is obviously why that named was used in the first place 21:25:27 pardon my typos. i'm in a moron rut of some sort 21:25:29 antifuchs: thanks 21:26:27 <_6502_> drdo: may be was also a mnemonic for a cpu instruction like car ? no idea... 21:27:08 drdo: car was the name of part of a register, as i recall 21:27:10 drdo: it came from LISP : http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/book/LISP%201.5%20Programmers%20Manual.pdf/view . Most normal folk prefer (setf car) these days. 21:28:09 you meant, setf first ? 21:28:23 drewc: the question is obviously why that name was in LISP 1.5 in the first place :P 21:28:30 Fare: hells no 21:28:57 setfty first. 21:28:58 caelan: once, a CONS was constructed out of CPR, CAR, CDR and CTR. All were names of short assembler routines (macros?) that accessed relevant parts of a register :) 21:29:20 antifuchs: I suspect it was more like "only 7 chars available" rather than performance boost :-) 21:29:28 p_l|uni: i knew it was something like that 21:29:33 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:29:39 that's even before someone figured out CONS was a function :) 21:29:42 i'm more up on my x86 asm than older systems 21:29:52 p_l|uni: not sure. I thought they needed more instructions for longer names or something 21:30:25 p_l|uni: also, didn't early lisps use symbols for words in strings? (: 21:31:03 antifuchs: 6 characters allow you to store the entire thing as a 36bit integer 21:31:15 strings? What's that? 21:31:25 antifuchs: indeed. 21:31:48 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-059-072.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:31:48 You could explode a symbol name into a list of 1-character symbols. 21:31:54 and implode it back. 21:32:10 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-056-196.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 21:32:16 dostoyevsky [sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 21:32:24 antifuchs: it's similar to how naming scheme on ITS works, where every filename can be described in iirc 4 or 5 36bit integers 21:32:29 And effectively, symbol names were lists of packed six 6-bit characters. 21:32:37 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:09 for the same reason, standard Pascal allows only 10 characters in symbol names, case insensitive 21:33:11 xan_ [~xan@64.134.223.178] has joined #lisp 21:33:16 (60 bit machine) 21:33:49 Well, it was worse, IIRC pascal allowed any number of characters in identifiers, with only a limited number of them significant. 21:34:22 pjb: yes, it ignored anything after 10th character 21:34:40 They still do that, only after the 255th character :-) 21:34:57 IIRC my longuest identifier ever was 86 characters. All meaningful. 21:35:07 i'm curious 21:35:12 what was it? 21:35:24 I could search it, it must be in a tarball... 21:35:46 some german word? (: 21:36:09 delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:36:14 -!- osoleve [~sabayonus@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:17 *drewc* has used some silly long identifiers as well 21:36:34 <_6502_> including vowels or not ? 21:36:40 Yes, inclulding vowels. 21:36:56 -!- yates is now known as _8085_ 21:37:00 german was designed with efficiency in mind! who wants to waste precious memory on those spaces? 21:37:26 pjb: I think it was longer than that.. I recall the rock-scissors-paper-... 21:37:36 drdo: I'm losing memory on sorting PDP-endian integers on a big-endian ALU 21:37:45 <_6502_> thanks to german now every char takes up 32 bits :-) 21:37:48 <_8085_> hey _6502_, you a 16-bitter? i'm 8 myself 21:38:02 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4F70.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:26 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:38:46 <_6502_> _8085_: 6502 comes from my first real computer... an Apple ][ 21:38:55 <_8085_> ah 21:39:07 <_8085_> i think my first assembly language class was 6502 21:39:25 Genosh [~Genosh@155.Red-88-15-69.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:37 -!- udzinari is now known as ENIAC-10 21:39:46 osoleve1 [~andy@adsl-074-166-228-237.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:54 ^^ 21:39:55 -!- osoleve1 is now known as osoleve 21:39:56 <_6502_> _8085_: I still have precious neurons burnt in stupid configurations that make me remember that A9 03 8D 00 20 is "LDA #$03; STA $2000" 21:40:03 i'm back, sorry! 21:40:19 <_8085_> _6502_: i can empathize 21:40:44 I know this is a long shot, but did anyone happen to glance over my code? 21:41:04 -!- _8085_ is now known as _8086_ 21:41:13 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:13 osoleve: I did, a bit 21:41:22 is-line isn't a function that you define in there 21:41:45 and DOLIST always returns NIL (you use it for the side effects only); so calling a predicate in it won't do much 21:41:46 <_6502_> osoleve: never thought about using bitcodes for storing X and O positions in tic-tac-toe ? ... checking for victory is easier (just a lookup) 21:41:49 it isn't? i thought i added it in 21:41:56 osoleve: it's called is-line-p 21:41:59 let me check 21:42:03 you have is-line-p (: 21:42:07 osoleve: which would usually be called 'linep' 21:42:11 osoleve: use FIRST, SECOND, THIRD etc over NTH 21:42:17 maybe you renamed that function and forgot to change the call site 21:42:24 happens to me all the time 21:42:34 _6502_, the first 'puter I programmed was an Apple ][+ (europlus, actually)! 21:42:41 ohhh, is-line should be is-line-p 21:42:45 good catch, thoanks 21:42:47 sykopomp: what's the official convention for p and -p ? 21:42:50 thanks* 21:42:50 <_6502_> Fare: same here :-) ... i'm italian 21:43:13 drdo: i think cltl discusses that 21:43:27 caelan: PAIP does. 21:43:31 drdo: http://www.cliki.net/naming%20conventions has a list of conventions that discusses hyphenation also 21:43:42 and yeah, I was searching sectors for LDA #$03 and replacing with LDA #$7F to have hundreds of lives instead of 3 :-) 21:43:51 it's foop, bar-foop, and foo-bar-p :) 21:44:02 drdo: foop, foo-bar-p, unless the function is ATOM or NULL. If they're generated using DEFSTRUCT, they will have -p appended by default. 21:44:14 antifuchs: Though, was that all you noticed? I was more worried about the first time i ever tried to put together a (dolist) haha 21:44:14 drewc: darn 21:44:35 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-71-198-7-84.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 21:44:47 and yes bar-foop (as in SLOT-BOUNDP, because of BOUNDP) 21:44:55 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:45:14 -!- osoleve is now known as msg 21:45:15 *sykopomp* really appreciates the Scheme convention in this case. 21:45:21 osoleve: instead of EQUAL, it's probably better to use = (does integer type checking) 21:45:44 -!- msg is now known as osoleve 21:45:54 Thanks, i read the cliki page, got it 21:46:03 <_8086_> what does GETF stand for? 21:46:12 osoleve: also, no need to use AND there, as all equality predicates take an arbitrary number of arguments 21:46:18 <_6502_> oh... may be it's a stupid question... but why aren't math ops generics in CL ? 21:46:28 so (= x y z) will check that x is = to y and y is = to z 21:46:34 ahhh, thanks! 21:46:37 <_8086_> _6502_: you mean "special operators"? 21:46:45 brb, coding. 21:46:45 osoleve: other than that, looks ok to me 21:46:46 haha 21:46:54 He might be asking why +, -, etc aren't actual generic functions. 21:46:56 no, he means + * and company i think 21:47:00 antifuchs: interesting page, but some of it is new to me.. e.g., the def/define- stuff.. it doesn't mesh well with define-condition 21:47:02 -!- ENIAC-10 [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:47:10 _6502_: mostly because we think operator overloading is a horrid thing to inflict on those poor readers of your code ;) 21:47:29 Yeah, is the F in SETF the same as in F-EXPR, and what does it mean? 21:47:30 _6502_: if you think you need them, you're probably doing it wrong. 21:47:38 davazp [~user@83.54.167.3] has joined #lisp 21:47:47 osoleve: the DOLIST is probably the only thing that really needs fixing. the rest is readable (: 21:47:57 Fare: I think the one in FEXPR is just for "Functional expression" 21:47:58 how would you guys implement some matrix type then? 21:48:08 _6502_, you're welcome to shadow + and use your generic version instead. 21:48:19 _6502_: also, it wouldn't work.. you'd need something like two-arg-plus to be the generic function, because + can take 0-n args 21:48:35 adeht: yeah 21:48:49 adeht: I thought it was number of syllables that determined def/define-ness 21:49:15 define-condition is the exception to the rule :) 21:49:24 <_6502_> drewc: hmmm... that's a good point; should (+) return 0 or a null matrix ? 21:49:24 drewc: I can see arguments made in favor of making an underlying add-two function generic, to make #'CL:+ extensible with new math types. 21:49:34 protocols, protocols, protocols. 21:49:36 antifuchs: when you suggested switching to = over equal, would it still return non-nil if comparing identical symbols instead of integers? 21:49:44 oh 21:49:48 wait, you're comparing symbols? 21:49:51 sykopomp: what's the win over SHADOW? 21:50:00 then a non-= equality predicate is probably best 21:50:09 use IPS and have a <+> function or so! 21:50:12 drewc: being able to pass it to other libraries that deal with math. 21:50:22 right, that;s why i used equal instead of = 21:50:25 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: edlinde] 21:50:37 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-68-51.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:45 osoleve: there are a couple of them; it's best to pick the one that most narrowly describes what you want to compare. =, eq, eql, equal, equalp, plus the string=/string-equal and character equivalents 21:50:46 <_6502_> drewc: if shadowing i cannot expect already existing code to use my types 21:50:48 edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:50:51 plus maybe a few others I forgot 21:50:52 drewc: you could, for example, create your own 'currency' type with its own rules for some of those operations, and simply toss it at some algebra system, and it could Just Work. 21:51:00 antifuchs: personally I always use -p and define- ;) 21:52:04 <_8086_> ok, if +, -, etc. aren't generic functions, what are they? 21:52:06 <_6502_> would be a generic + much slower than a polymorphic one ? i wouldn't think so 21:52:20 _8086_: regular functions? 21:52:28 Not with a smart enough compiler 21:52:39 <_8086_> prescription functions? 21:52:42 _8086_: they're polymorphic against predefined number types. 21:52:49 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-214-188.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:05 <_8086_> sykopomp: so, e.g., (+ 'a 'b) won't work? 21:53:18 nop 21:53:20 _8086_: no 21:53:27 and you can't extend it to make that work. 21:53:48 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Do domu, do domu] 21:53:54 <_8086_> you can't shadow the + definition? (is that the right term) 21:53:58 sure, you can. 21:54:04 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:54:04 shadow the symbol, and define your own + 21:54:09 but all you're doing there is taking the name. 21:54:11 drewc: shadowed * can result in surprising misbehavior, aside from its REPL use (which is applicable to other arithmetic operators), it's also used in declarations 21:54:15 sykopomp: i would assume that any algebra system worth its salt already allows you to extend it's number types 21:54:16 which is all well and good, if you really insist on doing that. 21:54:52 adeht: good point yeah. 21:54:54 drewc: so you need to remember to use cl:* and not my:* 21:54:57 drewc: well, they need to go out of their way and define their own generic math protocol to do that. 21:55:11 drewc: so if i want to use two systems, i need to extend each of them to support the other? 21:55:12 as opposed to simply playing off an established CL math-extension protocol. 21:55:16 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 21:55:17 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-211-11.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:55:23 -!- marienz [~marienz@freenode/staff/marienz] has left #lisp 21:55:32 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:55:44 not that + not being a generic function is that much of a big deal either. 21:55:52 -!- edlinde [~edlinde@90-227-7-243-no15.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:56:01 + shouldn't be a generic function anyway 21:56:06 <_6502_> how does lisp evolve ? 21:56:16 *drewc* has never had the need, but only briefly working with algebra and the like in trading systems 21:56:19 there could be a nullary+/unary+/binary+ thingy 21:56:32 adeht: I did suggest this earlier. 21:56:38 sykopomp: i liked that idea of generic binary functions that would be used by +, etc 21:56:47 this is just not that big a deal. 21:57:05 just define your own generic function. You don't even need to shadow CL:+ 21:57:19 sykopomp: exactly 21:57:37 drewc: I was just speculating as to what it would allow, if it were already the case. 21:57:56 well, if we had interfaces.... 21:58:06 The problem is that you basically need to reinvent a math framework and then people need to use it to implement new math types 21:58:10 *_6502_* would also like having + to concatenate strings :-) 21:58:26 _6502_: yuck 21:58:26 drewc: I liked how rahul's protocol hack looked better than interfaces-as-crippled-mixins. 21:58:26 _6502_: no :S 21:58:42 you can define a g+ that would dispatch to the nullary/unary/binary generic functions as-needed 21:58:56 sykopomp: what was rahuls protocol hack? 21:59:18 http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/protocols/?root=rjain-utils 21:59:20 sykopomp: Interface-Passing Style has been working out really well for me. 21:59:57 drewc: did you see my blog post? I'd love you to yell at me about it if you ever look at it :) 22:00:14 Am i the only one who hates this kind of jargon? 22:00:42 <_6502_> what jargon ? 22:00:42 drdo: do you mean Business-Oriented Communication? 22:00:50 Happens all the time that i read some of it and i have no idea what it means only to find out later it's some really simple shit 22:01:10 <_6502_> ah! ... you mean UML ? 22:01:48 sykopomp: i didn't! i'd love to tear into it :P 22:02:11 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:02:57 oh by the way 22:03:08 Can anyone tell me what the hell "Cloud Computing" means? 22:03:25 drdo: different things, depending on who you ask. 22:03:50 to some, it means virtualized hosting where you can add/remove computing power according to your needs, and scale what you're charged accordingly. 22:03:56 <_6502_> drdo: to me means $96/mo just to play with a couple of servers for no real reasons (one amazon and one rackspace) :-) 22:04:06 relying on somebody who has your credit card number to do your computations/data storage for you 22:04:14 to others, it means the concept of hosting your data on remotely-hosted websites, as opposed to having desktop applications. 22:04:45 to pointy-haireds, it means money 22:04:52 ^ 22:05:09 So when i ssh into my univ's cluster i'm doing Cloud Computing ? 22:05:33 drdo: not businessy enough! 22:05:44 but you might say that. 22:05:48 Come on man, i want to be part of it ! :( 22:05:59 It's cool, i think, i see it everywhere 22:06:01 There's the whole 'personal cloud' thing going around, too. 22:06:13 cloud computing is self-descriptive -- it's fuzzy 22:06:19 -!- Efthymios [~Efthymios@c-98-207-146-68.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:06:33 which I interpret as "host your services yourself, on your own servers, but make them remotely accessible for your mobile devices (laptops, phones, other peoples' computers that you're logging in from, etc)" 22:06:51 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:06:52 caelan: You could say the concept is... 22:06:53 ...clouded! 22:07:05 sykopomp: to me, it's more like "carve smaller computing instances from larger ones" 22:07:07 badumtish 22:07:12 How is that different from what everyone used to with time-sharing machines when computers were expensive as fuck? 22:07:18 at least that is what vmware and others are making it to be (and it makes sense to me) 22:07:26 antifuchs: I've seen a -lot- of definitions. 22:07:35 well, huh 22:07:59 http://www.ubuntu.com/cloud 22:07:59 sykopomp: did you remove your sunglasses as you said that? that's essential! 22:08:07 drdo: I did. YEEAAAHHH 22:08:27 anyway, let's steer this back to lisp a little bit. 22:08:28 :D 22:08:48 cloud computing is the aggregation of future computing bubbles 22:09:02 (defun cloud-compute (f) (make-servers) (login) (???) (profit!)) 22:09:07 <_6502_> i suppose there are lisp bindings for ec2 ... 22:09:07 "create a private cloud" i want a private cloud so i can water my plants on demand 22:09:10 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-68-51.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:09:23 drewc: I'll ping you here in case you're one of those folks that never notices pms. 22:09:35 oh, i get it, the whole idea is that i can use other people's clouds to water my plants 22:10:05 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:10:10 anyway 22:10:22 + not being generic is not that big a deal. 22:10:32 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:15 It's not indeed a Big Deal, but it would be nice if there was a way to extend it 22:11:15 hm. Question: Which one is right? "Generic over/across/against/on X types." 22:11:39 drdo: and it would be nice if special operators and macros were first class objects. 22:11:49 we can't always get what we want, but CL is more than usable enough. 22:11:57 sykopomp: Kernel 22:12:01 drdo: Indeed. 22:12:18 Also, i don't see why generic functions should be generic only over types 22:12:25 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@142.63.193-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:12:29 classes. 22:12:41 they're not 22:12:50 <_6502_> drdo: in my toy list i have "defun ... when" 22:12:53 meaning, they could be generic over any predicate 22:12:55 <_6502_> list=lisp 22:13:12 i think clojure does that even 22:13:14 drdo: sbcl's MOP has a generic dispatcher predicate thing. 22:13:30 <_6502_> drdo: "(defun fact (x) (* x (fact (1- x))) (defun fact (x) when (< x 2) 1)" 22:13:33 or had, at least. I think Krystof wrote something about it once. 22:13:59 still does 22:14:04 Pascal Costanza has a thingy too 22:14:04 good (: 22:14:07 filtered dispatch 22:14:07 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl16-65-63.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 22:14:27 didn't know about that. need to read up, it seems (: 22:14:47 but to answer the question for generic arithmetic operators, generic functions etc. a good reason is performance 22:14:49 hm 22:14:51 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:15:02 i was doing something similar, though in the form of rule-action pairs 22:15:09 adeht: that's where compilers come in 22:15:26 drdo: right, because compilers solve all performance problems 22:15:33 <_6502_> hehehe 22:15:46 No, but one like that, they should in theory be able to 22:16:09 drdo: that's nonsense 22:16:20 <_6502_> in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is 22:16:22 You can even declare the types if you really care 22:16:36 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:16:47 SBCL's type inference seems pretty damn good. Plus, it has to do type inference anyway when dispatching between different number types. 22:18:24 drdo: for generic functions you need to figure out what to do with multiple applicable methods that are on the same "level".. I recall Xof saying something about the type lattice and linearization :) 22:19:01 <_8086_> is there a key sequence to lookup hyperspec definitions for the function at point in slime? 22:19:14 <_8086_> function, or macro 22:19:15 Yes 22:19:23 C-c C-d h 22:19:26 <_8086_> 22:19:30 8086: C-x C-h f 22:19:37 <_8086_> aha 22:19:42 <_8086_> what's the difference? 22:20:15 -!- leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:20:17 8086: hmm forget it, I meant `C-h f' and that was for Emacs functions :X 22:20:33 _8086_: the difference is C-x C-h f doesn't work. 22:20:34 ;) 22:20:39 <_8086_> adeht: ah, no prob 22:21:08 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:21:15 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:21:24 <_8086_> sykopomp: thank you. now i'm going to see why i couldn't find that in the C-h m list of keys 22:21:39 Does anyone have an implementation of Kernel? 22:22:10 errkle [~user@lawn-128-61-126-119.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 22:22:16 _danb_ [~user@124-149-55-13.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:22:29 I have a pseudo-kernel-subset I've been playing with. It's really not too hard to write your own to play with the fexpr stuff. 22:22:44 *_8086_* is blind 22:22:46 and probably worth the trouble of actually writing your own interpreter. 22:23:00 (to understand) 22:23:10 *_6502_* agrees 22:23:21 <_6502_> it's also lot of fun 22:23:39 Phoodus [~foo@68.107.217.139] has joined #lisp 22:23:40 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:23:41 <_6502_> especially debugging the garbage collector :-) 22:24:03 *sykopomp* prefers writing interpreters on top of CL to get a free runtime and libraries to quickly hook into. 22:24:26 sykopomp: i did write one but it's kinda half-baked 22:24:29 <_8086_> interpretors that do WHAT? 22:24:37 _8086_: Interpret. 22:24:41 sykopomp: i wrote it in C :( 22:24:45 <_8086_> s/interpretors/interpreters/ 22:24:55 drdo: write it in CL! 22:25:35 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.144.75.18] has quit [Quit: aceluck] 22:25:36 <_8086_> sykopomp: i.e., translate some formalized syntax of tokens into other tokens? 22:25:37 leo2007 [~leo@59.57.34.138] has joined #lisp 22:25:48 quick question: in dereferencing special variables in threaded SBCL, it checks the TLS first, and if unset there checks the symbol-value. Are there any SBCL-specific declarations to tell it "This is always used as TLS dynamic closures" vs "This is always used as a global" 22:25:48 that's a compiler 22:26:24 <_8086_> interpret == just check syntax? 22:26:38 You honestly don't know what an interpreter is? 22:26:50 <_8086_> drdo: that is correct 22:27:07 <_8086_> i've heard of "interpreted languages" like basic 22:27:14 8086: an interpreter takes a program and translates it to some action 22:27:16 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-222.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:27:22 interpretation is an implementation detail, not a language feature 22:27:31 a CPU is a hardware interpreter for an ISA 22:27:41 8086: a compiler is a kind of interpreter, whose action is to create another program 22:27:45 a compiler translates from language to language, so some other interpreter can run it 22:27:47 -!- errkle [~user@lawn-128-61-126-119.lawn.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:28:01 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:04 *_6502_* thinks it's stupid that meta-/ doesn't find ":national-rating" even if "national-rating" is present in the file 22:28:14 _8086_: you are thinking of parsers 22:28:28 <_8086_> ah 22:28:33 <_8086_> perhaps so 22:28:42 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:29:48 Phoodus: modern CPUs have a JIT from the ISA to some internal RISC or VLIW thing 22:29:50 so, about the SBCL TLS vs symbol-name lookup, does silence = "no there's no facility for that"? 22:29:52 right 22:29:57 <`3b`> Phoodus: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Global-and-Always_002dBound-variables.html ? 22:30:21 <`3b`> not sure if that is what you want or not though 22:30:26 `3b`: thank you, it looks like it 22:30:36 *Phoodus* plays with the disassembler to see what that does 22:30:56 <_8086_> what do you call the input to an interpreter? 22:31:06 a program 22:31:06 <_8086_> a program? 22:31:07 _8086_: a language 22:31:15 hm, yeah, a program 22:31:47 <_8086_> sykopomp: what kind of program does your interpreter process? 22:32:01 <_8086_> or language 22:32:04 A Kernel program, that's what we were talking about 22:32:08 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-222.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:38 <_8086_> does the term "kernel" have special meaning in the context of lisp? 22:32:50 not really 22:32:53 Edward_ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-62-222.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:32:55 It's a programming language 22:33:08 ftp://ftp.cs.wpi.edu/pub/techreports/pdf/05-07.pdf 22:33:10 8086: http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html 22:33:35 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-25-82-254-177-74.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:11 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:34 <_8086_> thanks for schoolin' me, folks 22:35:05 8086: it's just another experimental toy scheme.. some people here are currently fascinated by it 22:35:46 adeht: not as much as fascinated as wondering why it wasn't originaly like that 22:35:51 <_6502_> i often get push forms the other way around... is it just me or was it a bad choice ? 22:36:02 *originally 22:36:19 drdo: keep wondering 22:36:31 _6502_: just you 22:36:40 <_8086_> John Shutt: why not use the hyperref package? you get hyperlinks in your TOC for free. 22:36:43 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:37:00 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:06 i always think of it as push obj into container 22:37:11 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-72-229-230-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:30 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:37:36 6502: the usual convention with arguments is to think of it as if spoken.. e.g., PUSH X INTO Y 22:37:38 -!- dnm_ [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:37:56 <_6502_> yeah yeah 22:39:19 I often have to second guess with setf vs push 22:39:38 "set 3 into x. Oh wait.." 22:39:47 SET X TO 3 22:40:21 this would be easier if every single parameter was a keyword ;) 22:40:30 <_6502_> no kidding 22:40:38 well, s/easier/clearer/ 22:40:41 it would just be verbose and annoying 22:40:43 <_6502_> (sin :angle theta) 22:40:55 i agree with adeht 22:41:04 (sin :radians theta) vs (sin :degrees theta) though? :) 22:41:06 Lisp is not aimed at newbies who can't remember the order 22:41:20 i certainly don't like reading code as verbose as that 22:41:43 it's the same thing with rule engines: positional rules (prolog style) vs named slotted rules (clips style) 22:41:44 <`3b`> well, program your editor to display the argument names inline as if they were keywords 22:41:55 <_6502_> (concatenate 'string "hello " name) is much more neat :-) 22:42:15 _6502_: i get annoyed by that when i just want to concatenate strings together 22:42:15 (concatenate :type 'string :items "hello " name) ;) 22:42:35 Phoodus: in all programming languages I can think of at the moment, sin/cos works with radians 22:42:40 I know 22:43:04 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-056-196.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 22:43:14 radians are neater than degrees 22:43:22 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:43:46 degrees are sometimes used by libraries, e.g. opengl, or some IMUs return pan/tilt/roll in degrees.. 22:43:54 not like it's hard to do something like (sin (radians->degrees x)) if you want it 22:44:10 or rather degrees->radians 22:44:24 but usually it gets converted to radians in the I/O boundaries 22:44:25 <_6502_> adeht: drawPie in Qt uses tenth of a degree (!) 22:44:34 or multimethod dispatch with radian & degree types 22:44:43 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-185-215.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 22:44:46 I always tend to avoid having raw numbers without units 22:44:47 adeht: man when i was just starting using opengl i was baffled that some shit didn't work 22:44:57 then i learned it used degrees instead of radians 22:45:32 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:45:34 <_6502_> phoodus: too bad you can't get math ops working with your units-annotated values :-D 22:45:49 Phoodus: that's why people invented the SI 22:46:06 drdo: even so, is weight in grams or kilograms? 22:46:11 kilograms 22:46:14 is the SI unit 22:46:15 s/weight/mass/ 22:46:24 there's no confusion 22:46:27 is time in seconds or milliseconds? 22:46:31 seconds 22:46:34 there was that units.lisp for dimensional checking 22:46:45 there's no issue there, it's clearly defined 22:47:36 Three nations have not officially adopted the International System of Units as their primary or sole system of measurement: Burma, Liberia, and the United States. 22:47:38 http://www.isi.edu/isd/LOOM/documentation/measures-implementation.text 22:47:40 haha 22:48:04 so where does the UK stand in terms of SI? 22:48:23 gallons, miles, stones, etc 22:48:28 drdo: now we just need to get Burma and Liberia on SI so we can stand alone against you godless heathens 22:48:28 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:48:28 -!- jweiss_ [~jweiss@cpe-069-134-025-078.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:48:45 how would i update slime using quicklisp? 22:48:46 Phoodus: it's as SI as anyone needs to be 22:49:24 then so is the USA? 22:49:28 they still use the old measurements but everything is cross-labeled, and old measurements are mostly used colloquially or to sound old 22:49:47 I don't understand the advantages of the imperial system 22:49:56 Phoodus: as much as I like to make fun of SI Nazis, the US could probably afford to go more SI 22:50:01 I agree 22:50:05 Then again, i never used it my life, we have always been same around here 22:50:09 *sane 22:50:30 <_6502_> drdo: well... almost 22:50:31 drdo: pretty much. nobody here wants to relearn shit, and unless they're in science or engineering there's no practical benefit to doing so 22:50:44 and the US is a big enough market to get away with it 22:50:58 Adamant: Why did those come up in the first place is my question 22:51:09 <_6502_> drdo: in italy it was in common use the "quintale" to means 100kg and "tonnellata" to mean 1000kg 22:51:26 I'm guessing it's quite fucked up to actually reason about those units in practice 22:51:28 drdo: they tried to make the US go metric in the 70's 22:51:28 about the same time Canada did 22:51:28 drdo: people standardized on the arbitrary things they were already using 22:51:34 drdo: not really 22:51:49 it's horrible for science and engineering usage 22:51:50 <_6502_> drdo: now in schools they "megagrammo" instead :-) 22:51:52 aceluck [~aceluck@175.144.75.18] has joined #lisp 22:51:58 for crafts and a lot of other stuff 22:51:59 <_6502_> they=they teach 22:52:10 Phoodus: How many fathoms are one league? 22:52:15 you don't care, there are established tricks for dealing with the weirdness 22:52:20 nobody uses fathoms 22:52:28 i'm just reading off wikipedia 22:52:31 the only people that would are the Navy 22:52:39 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.144.75.18] has quit [Client Quit] 22:52:40 and the US military is totally SI 22:52:42 it's so fucked up i don't know how you guys handle it 22:53:08 drdo: it's pretty amusing how many smart people in here know nothing about how people work :) 22:53:09 they even do 24-hour time, so 24-hour is known as "military time" or "Zulu time" in the US 22:53:09 <_6502_> distances are the funniest thing... for example horizontal ones are in miles, vertical ones in feet only 22:53:31 Adamant: that's something i never got either 22:53:36 i've always used 24 hour times 22:53:40 verticals ones don't get all that high or low except in aerospace 22:53:49 what's the advantage of 12 hour times? 22:53:51 _6502_: altitude is sometimes measured in miles 22:54:03 <_8086_> Adamant: i find 24-hour time extremely useful - use it myself all the time (e.g., computer clock) 22:54:05 but yes, rarely 22:54:05 can tell morning or night easier in some respects 22:54:19 Adamant: how? 22:54:21 in other respects 24-hour is easier 22:54:23 <_8086_> perhaps 'cause my dad was USAF 22:54:29 drdo: just say AM or PM 22:54:45 flip side - without AM or PM 22:54:51 Adamant: that's pretty terrible 22:54:54 24-hour is easier to reason about what time it is 22:55:05 also there's the crossover period 22:55:14 when someone tells me it was in the AM 22:55:15 <_8086_> i like 0924, e.g. -concise 22:55:16 12 AM/PM 22:55:19 it could be at night 22:55:21 or in the morning 22:55:24 <_6502_> time measure is weird anyway 22:55:33 true 22:55:50 Adamant: also, the meaning of 12 AM/PM and 00 AM/PM is really fucked up and counter intuitive 22:55:51 where did the unit of 12/24 segments of time in an earth's rotation come from anyway? 22:56:03 <_6502_> 24 hours, 60 minutes, 60 seconds 22:56:09 Phoodus: also wondering that 22:56:15 I think it's got some astronomical/astrological basis, but even then I don't see where the demarcations are 22:56:17 drdo: anyway, I kinda like it, until I have to calculate shit 22:56:30 <_8086_> wikipedia it 22:56:32 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-42-36.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:56:39 it confuses me 22:56:49 _8086_: or I could wait for somebody else here to do so :) 22:56:51 that 60 minutes in a hour thing 22:57:01 Daylight savings time has wasted many hours of software development. 22:57:02 the nice thing is that it means the US government and rest of the world can't force us to use some silly French system based on false premises like that they knew what one-millionth of the distance around the Earth was 22:57:02 i've been know to confuse 50 minutes with half an hour 22:57:08 *known 22:57:29 <_8086_> symbole_: it's "Daylight saving time" 22:57:31 symbole_: you just do everything on UTC internally and output GST+timezone to user 22:57:33 not hard 22:57:34 Phoodus: sumerians used base 60 22:57:38 -!- saac [~saac@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:57:39 symbole_: i fucking hate that and never understood it 22:57:48 we just entered it 22:57:51 it now means 22:57:57 fe[nl]ix: right, it's the 24 that I was asking 22:57:59 it's darker earlier 22:58:06 in the winter 22:58:11 in the summer, you get more light 22:58:14 and it's lighter earlier for morons who wake up retardedly early 22:58:15 <_8086_> drdo: it's an energy conservation thing 22:58:26 supposedly 22:58:38 <_6502_> may be 360 degrees for a circle are in relation to an (approximate) year 22:58:38 IMO the energy conservation thing is horseshit 22:58:45 or a "more lit working hours" for outdoor labor 22:58:52 <_8086_> leaving 50M lights off for an hour a day saves energy! 22:58:56 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-37-109.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:58:59 Phoodus: who the hell works at 6 ? 22:59:02 12/24/60/etc were used because they have a lot of divisors 22:59:05 only insane people 22:59:14 drdo: people whose jobs reuqire it? 22:59:15 It makes them convenient for mental arithmetic 22:59:18 yes, or more daylight leisure time 22:59:22 Phoodus: example? 22:59:30 saac [~saac@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:59:30 -!- saac [~saac@a81-84-164-44.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Changing host] 22:59:31 saac [~saac@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has joined #lisp 22:59:35 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:59:35 since most people knock off work at 5-6PM 23:00:00 drdo: People who live in the suburbs and chose to drive 2 hours to work. 23:00:00 _8086_: it makes no sense 23:00:07 drdo: anybody who works with links to companies/clients in other time zones definitely post steadily offset hours 23:00:17 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:00:21 symbole_: the problem is, why the fuck do people go to work so early? 23:00:30 drdo: why do you think any of this was rooted in "sense"? :) 23:00:32 They live far. 23:00:33 i don't get it, it reduces productivity for everyone 23:00:53 unless you're going to tell me you are really productive at 6-7-8 in the morning 23:00:57 <_8086_> drdo: ambition? 23:00:59 drdo: do you think any of this was actually designed? It was all just standardization on emergent factors 23:01:00 most people aren't 23:01:02 because some jobs require it 23:01:08 Adamant: which ones? 23:01:20 drdo: janitorial, cooking for two 23:01:23 <_6502_> it's more idiomatic "(let ((players nil)) ..." or "(let (players) ..." ? 23:01:26 A baker has to wake up earlier than 6. 23:01:26 <_8086_> drdo: hospital workers 23:01:29 Adamant: what do you mean? 23:01:44 _6502_: I like ((foo nil)), personally. 23:01:48 _6502_: I prefer the former. Dunno if there's actual stylistic agreement on that 23:01:59 drdo: do you want a clean office in the morning before you get there, or fresh-baked bread at 9AM when you eat breakfast? 23:02:14 Adamant: the problem in the first place, is why the hell do people to go the office at 9am? 23:02:16 or actually, fresh-baked bread for all of the day 23:02:19 drdo: some people are -really- productive in the morning. 23:02:30 sykopomp: i'm not, and most people i know aren't 23:02:40 actually, it's a common complaint 23:02:41 drdo: that doesn't mean some people aren't 23:02:45 well, then that sample size must be sufficient! ;) 23:02:59 programmers are not a particularly representative sample 23:03:07 we tend to be night owls 23:03:12 drdo: It varies per person. I've found myself going through uber-productive-morning phases, as well. 23:03:22 Adamant: perhaps f.lux can help fix that. 23:03:24 sykopomp: the only time that happens for me 23:03:25 I've started giving it a shot. 23:03:29 is when i haven't slept that night 23:03:34 and am on a ritalin high 23:03:47 sykopomp: f.lux is a good idea 23:04:07 http://www.stereopsis.com/flux/ <-- oh melatonin, how I missed you 23:04:20 i've used flux before 23:04:23 so is getting off the computer and other viewable blinky lightboxes completely for a hour before you want to sleep 23:04:24 it's quite nice 23:04:37 that tends to work even better 23:04:39 Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 23:04:45 I have trouble sleeping when people want me to 23:05:00 Adamant: It's hard to pull away unless I'm tired... 23:05:14 6502: it depends. if you want players bound to the empty list, it's ((players '())) .. if you want to leave the value "unspecified" (in effect it'll be nil) then (players) 23:05:24 Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-237-39.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:05:35 Adamant: that's also a benefit of actually traveling to your workplace; the downtime inbetween work & settling in at home 23:05:53 Phoodus: i take the train every day (1 hour travel each way) 23:06:16 i work on the way there and mostly sleep on the way home 23:06:32 -!- davazp [~user@83.54.167.3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:07:47 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:56 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@bl19-237-39.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 23:10:16 -!- bandu is now known as coyo 23:11:08 <_6502_> hmmm... '() 23:11:57 <_6502_> indeed it's more descriptive 23:11:57 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe-72-229-230-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 23:12:38 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:12:56 what? 23:13:33 <_6502_> (let ((players '())) ...) makes clear that players is going to be a list 23:14:03 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 23:14:19 there's also (list) for those who like verbosity for its own sake :) 23:14:36 I'd be suspicious of code like that 23:14:52 drdo: of code like what? 23:15:05 <_6502_> +EMPTY-LIST+ 23:15:42 adeht: i've assuming he's going to be consing stuff into that 23:15:44 *i'm 23:15:58 and? 23:16:10 and there's probably a better way to do it 23:16:10 `3b`: those are useful for "only bother checking symbol-value", but not for "only bother checking TLS". Though even just that half is reasonable to add in for clarity 23:16:26 drdo: sometimes, sure 23:17:44 _6502_: there's a term for that: nil :) 23:18:22 <_6502_> phoodus: but in some case nil is a list in some case is just a special no-value 23:18:25 as it is lisp's way to print out '() as NIL, I just stil to nil 23:18:31 stick 23:18:39 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:19:09 as pjb said earlier: [17:17] Conotations. () = empty program; '() = empty list data; NIL = false boolean; 'NIL = symbol named "NIL". 23:19:47 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 23:19:57 <_6502_> phoodus: for example for a game object i've as default for the result "nil" because i don't know it yet at creating time... for a player history of colors it's instead '() meaning an empty list 23:20:29 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:20:55 <_6502_> phoodus: do you think it's going to confuse the reader instead of helping ? 23:21:49 imo, comments or the name of the variable itself should make it clear what it's intended to hold 23:22:39 (and no, not 'name of the variable' as in hungarian notation :) ) 23:22:43 comments are overrated 23:23:04 <_6502_> the dark side would be ending up writing things like (when (null (players tournament)) (setf (players tournament) '())) :-D 23:23:23 lol 23:23:36 what's the issue here again? the conceptual meaning of nil? 23:23:54 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 23:23:56 whether or not the initialized data should be a human-readable indicator of intended type of the varibale 23:23:59 variable 23:24:34 especially in the case where there are multiple ways to express the same initializer 23:24:40 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:24:42 i always write nil 23:25:09 p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:27:09 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:27:31 is there a free software web application framework for lisp? 23:28:23 there are many.. ucw, weblocks, bknr, ... 23:28:34 http://www.cliki.net/Web 23:29:06 Hunchentoot can serve as a framework in itself 23:29:38 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:29:42 yes, usually in my (crude) web interfaces I use hunchentoot+yaclml 23:29:50 jeti [~user@p54B46513.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:33 -!- kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: kjbrock] 23:30:50 *p_l|home* is investigating hunchentoot+defservice+yaclml+contextl. With probably some extra changes to support before and after filters. 23:31:00 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050066218.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:31:07 (this is starting to look like German) 23:31:36 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 23:31:50 minion: defservice? 23:31:52 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``defservice''. 23:32:10 -!- xan_ [~xan@64.134.223.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:32:24 p_l: I took a short look at defservice.. but didn't figure out how it's useful/great/noteworthy 23:32:36 sykopomp: it's a small set of functions/macros that got released publicly from AllegroGraph, used for routing 23:32:47 adeht: better routing layer, IMHO 23:33:49 though my perspective is skewed. After all, I'm the guy who just cheerfully been working with infamous JCL 23:35:06 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:35:23 p_l: perhaps I should look into it the next time I need a web thingy 23:35:40 JCL = Job Control Language? :) 23:37:31 unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 23:38:00 gz_ [~gz@rrcs-208-125-251-170.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:41:31 adeht: yes 23:42:07 -!- superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has quit [Quit: superflit] 23:42:08 *p_l|home* just finished answering questions about JCL Data Definition statement syntax 23:42:52 dlowe [~dlowe@c-76-24-31-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:22 jdz [~jdz@host33-109-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:47:43 xan_ [~xan@208.80.69.214] has joined #lisp 23:48:46 p_l: I don't know JCL, but I remember a friend telling me he couldn't write a function like http://paste.lisp.org/display/116212 in it for some constraint I respected while writing this function (it was more than a year ago methinks) 23:49:39 I haven't shown him this function, but maybe you can tell me if this translates well to a JCL solution (aside from multiple-values and such) 23:51:53 -!- coyo [~coyotama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: client closed in haste] 23:52:11 <_6502_> is format extensible ? 23:52:25 <_6502_> adding new ~things i mean 23:52:55 6502: you can use ~/.../ 23:53:11 clhs ~/ 23:53:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm 23:54:38 -!- gz_ [~gz@rrcs-208-125-251-170.nys.biz.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:54:43 -!- Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:57:17 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:54 adeht: At my level, I wouldn't even try