00:00:49 cheers 00:00:56 banisterfiend: You're welcome1 00:00:58 ! 00:00:59 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:02:33 Riastradh: Didn't make a difference. 00:02:33 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:54 Bizarre! 00:03:07 What operating system is this? 00:03:48 Riastradh: I can't compile gnu-lose. Either I get compiler errors, or link fails because feeenableexcept doesn't exist. 00:03:56 This is Solaris 10. 00:04:35 Do you know whether Solaris 10 has some other way to control the hardware's floating-point exception modes? 00:04:43 I would have provided an old open/x86, but it only has a very old gcc. 00:04:48 Riastradh: inline asm? 00:05:06 FP and FP exceptions work very well on Solaris 10 with cmucl. 00:05:12 feeenableeeexcept is glibc extension; fpsetmask is a BSD extension. But a Solaris userland is neither a GNU userland nor a BSD userland. 00:05:19 rtoym, yeah, perhaps it'll be better if I give you something to run in CMUCL. 00:05:58 Based on the C code, you're just computing (/ (scale-float a b) c), right? 00:06:13 Or, if you have a moment, you could concoct it yourself. What I am trying to do is coax an accrued underflow exception out of division of a very small number by two. 00:06:46 Yes, although the SCALE-FLOAT is a red herring, in the presence of the 0x123p456 notation. 00:07:22 -!- Guthur [~Guthur@cpc11-belf9-2-0-cust855.2-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:08:21 Hmm. I'm not 100% sure if sparc has an accrued exception. 00:08:34 OK, here: after (ext:set-floating-point-modes :traps '(:divide-by-zero :invalid :overflow :underflow)), 00:08:53 try (progn (let ((x (scale-float 1d0 -1022))) (ext:set-floating-point-modes :current-exceptions '() :accrued-exceptions '()) (let ((y (/ x 2))) (pprint y) (ext:get-floating-point-modes)))), and try replacing `progn' by `ext:with-float-traps-masked (:underflow)'. 00:09:57 I don't remember whether it does, but it should, if it supports IEEE 754. I think that accrued/sticky/whatever exceptions are in the 1985 standard, not just the 2008 one, but I could be misremembering. (Certainly they are in IEEE 754-2008.) 00:10:03 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:11:13 (In my previous message, `it' referred to the SPARC.) 00:11:46 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 00:12:04 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:12:58 fgump [~gauthamg@vpn2-007.vpn.net.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:14:08 -!- phrixos [~clarkema@194.66.0.176] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:14:46 Riastradh: Interesting. If underflow traps are disabled, (/ (scale-float 1d0 -1022) 2) signals an error as expected. 00:15:27 Er, underflow trap enabled. 00:15:57 banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has joined #lisp 00:15:58 But with underflow trap disabled, no error, but get-floating-point-modes says the accrued exceptions is just :inexact. 00:16:21 kingless [~kingless@adsl-162-136-191.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:55 -!- kingless [~kingless@adsl-162-136-191.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:17:29 I just checked -- the SPARC has had accrued floating-point exceptions since v8. 00:17:30 FWIW, I'm pretty sure ppc did add :underflow to accrued exceptions because if you then enabled underflow exceptions, I remember that the underflow was instantly signaled when the exception was enabled. 00:18:04 Well, great. 00:18:19 That's *different* bogus behaviour from the x86. 00:19:01 What result do you get from the expression, if underflow is not trapped? 00:19:16 0, or a subnormal number? 00:19:22 A subnormal number. 00:19:51 1.11d-308. 00:19:52 new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 00:19:59 Grumble. That subnormal number is exact (unless there is something seriously wrong with the hardware), so raising the inexact-result exception is wrong. 00:20:27 why are #| |# comments so rare? 00:20:31 Oh. Let me clear out the accrued exceptions. (I'm not running your code.) 00:21:02 new-lisper: I find it easier to write short blocks of toplevel comments with a ;;; prefix 00:21:16 Oh, yes -- make sure you clear them, because otherwise *any* floating-point arithmetic is likely to yield an inexact result. 00:21:17 new-lisper: i sometimes but not very often comment out chunks of code with #| and |# 00:21:27 Xach: thanks 00:24:01 Riastradh: The :inexact is because you pprint y. Remove that, and the accrued exceptions is NIL. 00:24:04 *`3b`* finds ;;; more obvious for big blocks, and #++ easier to type for commenting specific forms, and emacs doesn't handle #| |# all that well anyway 00:24:08 Oops! 00:24:09 Duh. 00:24:49 I pprinted y to make sure the compiler wouldn't optimize it away. 00:25:20 What I meant to do is (prog1 (ext:get-floating-point-modes) (pprint y)). 00:25:41 I'm not compiling the code, just running it in the repl. 00:26:18 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:50 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.0.15.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:27:29 OK. So now the SPARC and x86 seem to agree. 00:27:59 Dividing #x1p-1022 traps, if trapping is enabled, but does not raise the flag, if trapping is disabled. 00:28:14 But accrued exceptions is NIL, I would have naively expected :underflow to be included. 00:28:17 Dividing #x1p-1022 by 2, I mean. 00:28:20 Likewise. 00:28:50 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:27 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 00:32:50 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has left #lisp 00:34:39 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.169.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:35:13 -!- Mn [~form@219-70-161-110.cable.dynamic.giga.net.tw] has quit [Quit: ] 00:35:24 -!- jeti [~user@p548EB6AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:42:25 Riastradh: I wonder if this is an issue with Ultra III. IIRC, it doesn't support subnormal numbers in HW, and has to do it in SW. Let me see if an Ultra II (which does everything in HW, I think) behave differently. I'm guessing it won't, but you never now. 00:42:41 Multiplying #x1p+1023 by 2 traps or sets the overflow flag, as I expect. Likewise, division by zero does the right thing. 00:43:31 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@vpn2-007.vpn.net.ed.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:49:34 MoALTz [~no@92.9.232.71] has joined #lisp 00:50:19 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:50:52 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:51:22 Interesting. Using (/ x 2d0) set no exception flags; replacing it by (scale-float x -1) gave the subnormal-operand exception flag. 00:52:36 (which is nonstandard, and, in this case, wrong) 00:52:45 (That's on x87.) 00:53:13 Does SCALE-FLOAT reduce to the FSCALE instruction in CMUCL on x87? 00:53:18 (I don't have the source handy.) 00:54:06 caelan [~caelan@68.156.95.226] has joined #lisp 00:54:21 Riastradh: disassemble? 00:56:35 The output doesn't fit in my terminal... 00:58:01 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 00:58:44 italic [~italic@cpe-74-77-219-209.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:46 SBCL seems to emulate it in software under some circumstances. I really don't understand why. 01:00:14 Krystof: I'd like to tell someone about the spatial-trees darcs being dead. Do you know anyone who could do something useful with that information? 01:00:19 vsync [~vsync@24.173.173.82] has joined #lisp 01:02:17 xach: is there a file in the quicklisp-projects repo that lists the urls where the packages are being downloaded from (ie ediware-http)? 01:03:16 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.207.219] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 01:06:40 italic: no. that's translated by an unreleased project. 01:06:43 -!- MetalBrains [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:07:16 italic: i've moved away from source identifiers that opaque, though, for new projects, and might go back and translate the old ones too. 01:08:44 Xach: i'd just like to know where the software is coming from that i'm about to install 01:15:19 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:00 -!- new-lisper [~daniel@c95334ae.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:16:53 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 01:16:57 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:47 -!- upwardindex [~Adium@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:18:31 upwardindex [~Adium@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:22:05 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839E83.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:22:09 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:23:08 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Client Quit] 01:28:33 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu225.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:42 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:56 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu225.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 01:32:02 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:35:06 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: night.] 01:40:07 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:41:11 syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:38 .seen fare 01:42:51 i seen 'im 01:44:02 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 01:46:14 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu225.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:47:28 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:51:19 =) 01:51:28 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:51:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Quit: Valete!] 01:53:21 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #lisp 01:54:00 -!- Genosh [~Genosh@83.43.187.244] has quit [] 01:56:38 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@187.114.114.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:57:54 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.49.106] has joined #lisp 02:04:45 -!- davazp [~user@83.54.167.3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:08:38 once again, let's assume I read everything about dynamic vars and lexical bindings in hyperspec, and seen all examples 02:08:41 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116111 02:08:50 -!- nha [~prefect@2001:6f8:1c57:24:219:d2ff:fe2a:1d01] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:08:57 One example I didn't see was about global vars and lexical closures 02:09:41 Why doesn't *myvar* get captured by closure even though it's shadowed by lexical binding? 02:13:47 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:50 ikki [~ikki@189.139.220.59] has joined #lisp 02:14:06 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:15:05 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:07 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.49.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:19:09 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:21:02 -!- znutar [~znutar@69.164.197.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:21:14 -!- Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:23:56 echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 02:24:57 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:57 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.139.220.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:25:06 maden [~maden@ip69-17-225-217.vif.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:07 ikki [~ikki@189.247.157.188] has joined #lisp 02:26:25 -!- italic [~italic@cpe-74-77-219-209.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:29:05 znutar [~znutar@69.164.197.143] has joined #lisp 02:29:53 -!- maden [~maden@ip69-17-225-217.vif.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:32:42 ur5us [~ur5us@121.98.212.19] has joined #lisp 02:32:46 syntard: There is no such thing as shadowing a dynamic binding with a lexical binding. 02:33:00 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 02:33:17 Xach: what does the output mean then? 02:33:29 *schmrkc* would look unless the company firewall hadn't marked paste.lisp.org as evil and a verified fraudulent site 02:33:45 you should read CLtL2's chapter about Scope and Extent 02:33:47 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:33:55 all right 02:35:12 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-210-72.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:36:04 -!- ur5us [~ur5us@121.98.212.19] has left #lisp 02:37:27 forget I asked, apparently it's a touchy subject 02:38:14 *Riastradh* blinks. 02:38:18 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:38:39 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 02:38:46 syntard: How did you get that impression? 02:39:01 I got called names 02:39:26 syntard: Why do you think that you didn't capture the variable? 02:39:47 Stop whining like a schoolgirl and answer the question. 02:39:48 syntard: I didn't see you get called names. Maybe my client is broken. 02:39:54 Called names?? 02:39:55 tee hee 02:40:01 Zhivago: I'll check 02:40:19 "rtfm" is now "called names" :) 02:40:35 By whom, syntard? (except for Zhivago as a joke) 02:40:46 schmrkc: maybe syntard misread your action 02:41:29 I think that syntard's question was reasonable. 02:41:44 He's confused because he has misdiagnosed the problem. 02:41:48 adeht: Oh that could be it. 02:41:59 He has misdiagnosed the problem because he doesn't understand how let works. 02:42:00 yes the question is great. answer is great. I just wish I could see the paste :) 02:42:13 but Threat level: Dangerous is applied to paste.lisp.org 02:42:37 schmrkc, can you use Tor? I find that that often helps me through fascist networks. 02:43:14 Riastradh: I have problems doing anything at all on this machine. I got around to installing putty. and then I get back next day and they've made the thing write protected. 02:43:18 hmmm.. 02:43:22 putty + w3m perhaps 02:43:26 ah well :) 02:43:35 Zhivago: it doesn't capture, I change *myvar* after creating closure, and closure parrots it 02:43:41 I see...not just a fascist network, then. 02:43:56 *syntard* ponders his words 02:44:12 syntard: Why would a captured variable's value changing surprise you? 02:44:29 Zhivago: but I bound it with let! 02:44:39 Riastradh: or maybe I can configure IE6 (IE6, correct!) to go through my tor at home 02:44:42 hmm 02:44:48 syntard: No, you rebound a dynamic variable with let. 02:45:26 syntard: since *myvar* is a special variable, the binding has a dynamic extent. it is gone once myvaradd returns.. 02:45:44 adeht: ok, I believeyou 02:45:47 But the variable remains. 02:46:02 makes sense 02:46:16 myvaradd1 is bad code, because the declaration refers to a free variable 02:46:35 so, it doesn't throw error 02:47:00 if you want to declare y as special, do it inside the let 02:47:01 That declaration should be inside the let. 02:47:41 No, I wanted it to be shadowed by let 02:47:58 to emulate *myvar* situation 02:49:57 I'm not sure why you think we're the ones who are confused 02:50:25 Never said that 02:50:47 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:51:37 if you wanted the same effect as *myvar*, you should have put that declaration inside the let, and have (let ((y 5) ...) (declare (special y)) (funcall f)) 02:53:08 ok, thanks 02:54:11 but I knew that before 02:54:23 and again, I recommend reading http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html it's both fundamental and important 02:55:02 thanks 02:57:35 I'll make a note: closures and dynamic variables: touch subject 02:57:40 touchy 02:58:10 This is bullshit 02:59:05 *syntard* shrugs 02:59:22 syntard: I'm gonna consider you a troll from now. 02:59:44 syntard, what makes you think that they are a touchy subject? If anyone called you names for asking your question, that person was out of line -- but I didn't see anyone calling you names here. 02:59:45 got called names, thanks 03:00:00 ~_~ 03:04:26 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 03:04:46 enough 03:05:42 Zhuangzi` [~user@host25-40-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 03:07:31 -!- Zhuangzi [~user@unaffiliated/zhuangzi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:09:32 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-172-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:09:53 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-172-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:10:20 unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 03:16:44 njm [~njm@68-191-153-240.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:19 syntard: Please look up what defvar does. 03:18:30 syntard: And stop whining like a schoolgirl. It is unbecoming. 03:19:01 Zhivago: thanks 03:19:22 syntard: Welcome. 03:19:54 smithzv [~smithzv@c-98-245-201-232.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:40 syntard: Pay particular attention to the declaration that defvar produces. 03:21:00 -!- njm [~njm@68-191-153-240.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:28:13 I guess I have fundamental misunderstanding of cl closurs 03:28:38 No. 03:28:47 You have a fundamental misunderstanding of declarations. 03:28:57 What declaration does defvar produce? 03:30:10 declar 03:30:33 Whoops. Clearly a good night. 03:32:03 declaration? you mean global? 03:32:18 -!- Bobrobyn [~rsmith05@CPE002401755b76-CM001ac30e9df0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:32:24 dynamic scope: indefinite scope dynamic extent 03:32:49 syntard: What declaration does defvar produce? 03:34:08 Zhivago: I don't see "declaration" mentioned, just that it establishes a name as dynamic variable 03:34:23 -!- Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:34:45 See the "might be defined as". 03:34:56 In there see the declaim form. 03:35:14 What that does is to declare that all subsequent variables of that name are special. 03:35:21 Does your situation make more sense now? 03:35:48 subsequent, yes 03:36:08 And in your case are they subsequent? 03:36:29 yes, just thought let form would create another lexical variable 03:37:03 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:37:56 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-172-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:38:15 which it does, unless there's a special declaration to the contrary, I understand! 03:39:06 Well done. If you hasn't been so enthusiastic about whining like a schoolgirl you could have gotten to this point faster. 03:39:39 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-172-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:40:44 -!- ska` [~user@ppp-58-11-98-174.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:41:35 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 03:43:37 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:43:55 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 03:44:38 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:54:23 bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:52 is there a function for adding a slot to an object? 03:56:22 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:56:56 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-210-76.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:57:47 OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:53 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:02:00 derrida: i think you need to add a slot to the object's class for that, but i'm no expert 04:02:29 derrida: Why do you want to do this? 04:04:46 I was just playing around with CLOS and thought it would be fun to have something opposite slot-makunbound for manipulating objects. 04:05:10 making a slot unbound is different from removing a slot. 04:05:37 the closest thing to a complement of makunbound would probably be (setf slot-value) 04:06:44 I think that you probably shouldn't think of using slots in objects. 04:07:24 If you think of slots as being a kind of internal bus for classes to intercommunicate into the future, then it might make more sense. 04:07:37 Adding accessors, on the other hand ... 04:08:12 (defmethod foo-bar ((this (eql my-instance))) 10) ... 04:13:53 Unbound global variables make sense to me for the purpose of linkage, but unbound slots never have. 04:14:56 Well, I guess that mixins have the same basic problem. 04:15:54 ? 04:16:19 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-225-45-140.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:17:12 ? is not an answerable question. 04:17:43 i'm confused how mixins relate 04:19:50 Well, think about separate compilation and linkage via global variables via symbol interning. 04:20:16 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-15-21.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:20:26 -!- schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:20:29 In this case you have files which load up in an environment where they may do different things depending on if a global has been set up or not. 04:20:30 derrida: you can add slots to a class using the MOP: http://www.lisp.org/mop/index.html 04:20:39 ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-15-21.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:55 pjb: thank you, i'm reading about allocate-slot-storage now 04:20:58 -!- az [~az@p4FE4F1DE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:21:09 With mixins you have the same basic problem -- superclass methods are operating in an environment where they may do different things depending on if a slot has been set up or not. 04:21:51 Say you have a mixin that wants to give a default value to a slot, and another mixin further down the superclass list that also wants to do this. 04:22:04 How do they coordinate themselves so that they don't interfere? 04:22:16 It's the same basic problem that defvar needs to address. 04:22:32 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:23:22 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 04:23:35 derrida: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116117 Paste number 116117: ensure-class-slot 04:23:52 -!- unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 04:27:43 pjb: very cool! this is what i was looking for! 04:27:50 Zhivago: i see what you mean. 04:27:57 az [~az@p5796CB1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:35 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:32:47 -!- caelan [~caelan@68.156.95.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:33:56 pjb: is there a reason you don't use #'? 04:38:36 -!- Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:39:16 -!- upwardindex [~Adium@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:39:17 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ksjbzmnjtuciehkd] has joined #lisp 04:43:50 I don't like #' it's full of cutting edges and pinching points. 04:43:57 I prefer the roundness of (function x). 04:44:21 pjb: do you also do (quote x)? 04:44:30 Sometimes. 04:44:36 enupten [~neptune@117.254.172.41] has joined #lisp 04:44:49 (quote x) should be done by newbies, until they can write a reader macro. 04:44:58 How do you get around #= ? 04:45:35 I still use # but not for function. 04:45:59 I was reading about MDL. 04:46:24 They use ,foo to refer to a global foo, and .foo to refer to a local foo. 04:50:33 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:00:07 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 05:02:44 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:10:32 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.172.41] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 05:11:14 -!- bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:16:22 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:16:46 PCChris_ [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-138.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 05:17:06 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 05:17:34 _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has joined #lisp 05:17:39 good morning everyone 05:18:09 morning 05:21:08 chewbran1a [~chewbranc@c-24-18-241-128.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:54 -!- chewbranca [~chewbranc@c-24-18-241-128.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:32:11 -!- vu3rdd`` [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.208] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:32:40 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.208] has joined #lisp 05:35:52 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.219.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:38:38 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 05:44:13 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:50:49 kenanb [~user@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 05:54:42 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-31-62.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:43 -!- kenanb [~user@94.54.235.211] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:57:49 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp118-210-42-187.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:18:23 MetalBrains [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:06 -!- MetalBrains is now known as MetalDust 06:19:08 -!- _nix00 [~Adium@61.172.241.100] has left #lisp 06:23:32 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-118.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 06:33:32 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 06:34:50 mux` [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:51 Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 06:38:23 i installed emacs and slime with ubuntu's software center.... if i do: C-u M-x slime, i get 'Run lisp: lisp', hit enter, and i get 'no such file or directory' 06:39:30 do i have to install an intepreter? 06:40:33 mux: Partially "yes": you need to install a Lisp implementation for SLIME to communicate with. 06:40:41 You need a Common Lisp implementation supported by SLIME. 06:40:42 -!- Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:40:42 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:40:49 It doesn't have to be implemented as an interpreter... 06:41:06 mux: try installing sbcl 06:41:19 what are other popular alternatives? 06:41:28 clisp, abcl, 06:41:37 ecl 06:41:46 I hear Clozure is popular in some circles. 06:41:47 (of the free ones) 06:42:02 I think Clozure only runs on OSX? 06:42:09 MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:09 I haven't used it since it was called Clozure, though. 06:42:10 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:42:12 -!- MetalDust_Clouds [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:42:15 Does it? OK, then. 06:42:24 (not sure) 06:42:30 easyE, it runs on Linux also 06:42:36 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:42:37 and windows. and freebsd. 06:42:39 yum install clozure 06:42:40 -!- PCChris_ [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-138.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:42:51 There you go... 06:42:51 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-138.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:43:00 PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-138.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has joined #lisp 06:43:13 mux`: lisp is the name of the cmucl executable. If you have installed another implementation, you will have to type here the name of its executable. Eg. C-u M-x slime RET C-a C-k clisp RET for clisp. 06:43:17 yum install clojure 06:43:34 ccl runs everywhere too. 06:43:36 sorry for the typo 06:44:15 Clojure is a very different beast from Clozure, kushal. 06:44:40 Riastradh, my fault , sorry 06:45:00 less knowledge == evil mind :( 06:46:37 arg... so many compilers to choose from... 06:46:51 mux`, choose sbcl 06:47:53 mux`: you can use several at once. 06:48:09 http://paste.lisp.org/display/34346 06:48:55 sweet, thanks pjb 06:49:04 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@178.120.77.188] has joined #lisp 06:52:07 nha [~prefect@2001:6f8:1c57:24:219:d2ff:fe2a:1d01] has joined #lisp 06:52:29 MoALTz_ [~no@92.9.232.71] has joined #lisp 06:53:43 mrSpec [~Spec@95.9.89.54] has joined #lisp 06:53:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@95.9.89.54] has quit [Changing host] 06:53:43 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:56:08 -!- MoALTz [~no@92.9.232.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:04:32 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.208] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC 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[~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:58:39 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:00:28 ehu [~ehuels@109.33.87.246] has joined #lisp 08:00:36 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@203.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:07:39 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255942.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:08:48 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:09:13 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 08:12:22 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.78.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:14:40 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:15:12 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:16 drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 08:15:18 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 08:19:34 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Client Quit] 08:19:42 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 08:20:26 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seconds] 08:49:54 trigen [~MSX@81.18.253.210] has joined #lisp 08:50:01 Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 08:50:36 ilowry [~user@193.104.181.233] has joined #lisp 08:50:43 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:51:05 mux`: sbcl 08:51:39 mux`: you can create fasl's with it 08:51:56 -!- ilowry [~user@193.104.181.233] has quit [Client Quit] 08:52:10 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:13 ilowry [~user@193.104.181.233] has joined #lisp 08:52:37 -!- ilowry [~user@193.104.181.233] has quit [Client Quit] 08:55:12 -!- echo-area [~user@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:58:19 hi people 09:06:08 -!- mux` [~user@cpe-76-172-217-134.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:09:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.157.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:09:41 Yuuhi [benni@p5483C022.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:24 etenil [~user@82.45.133.100] has joined #lisp 09:14:27 Hey there 09:14:54 I'm learning lisp off the book practical common lisp, and there's a function I don't quite understand 09:15:45 http://pastebin.ca/1978539 09:15:47 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@92.9.232.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:16:02 I don't understand what the use of (labels) mean 09:16:15 MoALTz [~no@92.9.232.71] has joined #lisp 09:16:28 <_3b> clhs labels 09:16:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 09:16:33 <_3b> see that ^ 09:16:36 yes I've read it 09:16:43 but I still don't get it 09:16:50 etenil: It means it lets you declare local functions that refer to each other. 09:16:55 <_3b> it defines a local function, which can call itself 09:16:59 especially, I can't make out what the value of name would be set to 09:17:04 each other or themselves 09:17:35 name is walk's argument 09:18:08 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755546.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:28 Question about emacs indentation: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116120 -- I think "attic" in the second line should line up with "garden" in the first. It does so in "Land of Lisp" where this code is taken from but my emacs does it different. Explanations? Fixes? 09:18:53 cmm: name isn't passed to the walk-directory function, I suppose it is set by labels, but set to what? 09:19:20 clhs says labels sets name or function-name to the implicit function block name 09:19:34 but that's as clear as chinese to me :S 09:19:51 etenil: WALK is a local function, introduced using LABELS. WALK has one argument, NAME. now what's the question, again? 09:20:04 aah 09:20:09 I think I get it 09:20:23 labels acts as defun, except the function is defined locally 09:20:29 am I correct? 09:20:37 -!- rasterbar [~rasterbar@unaffiliated/rasterbar] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:20:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn2-118.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:20:53 ignore the implicit function block stuff, you won't need it before you learn about return-from and friends 09:21:07 etenil: correct 09:21:12 I see 09:21:27 that wasn't obvious at all from clhs's spec 09:21:35 thanks for the help guys 09:23:05 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 09:23:31 yeah, the clhs is more of a reference for people who know than appropriate learning materials 09:24:26 it's a deceptively readable reference, but still not quite a tutorial 09:25:23 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25:39 I think it can actually be used for learning CL, provided you know some other lisp already 09:26:24 yeah, but then I'm really beginning with lisp :D 09:27:38 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@180.151.32.194] has joined #lisp 09:36:30 -!- etenil [~user@82.45.133.100] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:47:24 cow-orker [~mw@c541745C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #lisp 09:49:35 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:52:07 Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD951F5EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:05 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-172-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:56:10 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-172-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:56:14 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:56:20 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-117.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 10:00:28 pickles [~rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:01 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050065092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:07:10 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu225.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:07:14 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-172-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:07:23 Land of Lisp suggests using an alist for object locations in a game and just pushing new (object location) pairs to it when something changes. The fact that this alist might grow and grow as somebody keeps playing is just ignored. Is that a reasonable thing to do? 10:08:30 H4ns [~user@pD4B9E44F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:21 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-172-202.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:09:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 10:09:29 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.61.65] has joined #lisp 10:11:24 dabd [~dabd@a79-169-213-197.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 10:13:52 boscop_ [~boscop@f055017095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:14:26 -!- boscop [~boscop@f055253058.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:15:56 cYmen: i can't answer, i'm a noob just on teh first chapters of the book 10:16:05 but why o why did i not know about lisp in high school 10:16:41 finally syntax that i can read 10:21:42 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:47 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:22:04 <_3b> doesn't seem like it would scale, but as long as you keep the API separate from the specifics of using a alist, it doesn't seem like an unreasonable way to start out 10:22:57 Yeah, and it probably won't have to scale. People will just never pick up and drop objects enough for lisp to have a problem handling it. Sometimes I just need to spell out problems to stop worrying. :P 10:23:46 <_3b> also, if they can be picked up, are they still on th elist when they are later dropped? 10:23:59 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-172-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:24:23 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-172-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:24:59 <_3b> though i guess that assumes player inventory is handled separately, and not just as another possible 'location' on that list 10:26:02 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:26:09 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:26:49 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 10:26:49 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 10:26:49 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:28:23 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-152-211.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:28:46 The latter is the case. 10:29:17 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:30:26 _danb_ [~user@124-149-55-13.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:30:47 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:35:11 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu225.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:37:40 majoh [~axiom@plum.csbnet.se] has joined #lisp 10:37:48 Wakko10Warner [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/wakko9warner] has joined #lisp 10:37:52 lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:38:07 Lisp hackers check out irc://mike3620.dyndns-ip.com/lisp 10:38:21 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 10:38:24 -!- Xach has set mode +b *!*chatzilla@unaffiliated/wakko9warner 10:38:29 -!- Wakko10Warner [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (I said to go away.) 10:38:40 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 10:41:12 did anyone read LoL ? 10:41:27 there is a wording in it i don't get! 10:41:41 enupten [~neptune@117.254.174.83] has joined #lisp 10:42:25 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:42:38 lol, whats LoL? 10:43:24 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:44:15 land of lisp 10:44:23 book by dr. barski just released 10:44:39 homie: i'm just starting to read it now 10:44:48 i won't be able to help 10:44:51 just ask i guess 10:45:27 (defvar temp-special), (let ((temp-special 'whatever)) (lambda () temp-special)), it says this function, when applied, will access whatever current dynamic environment exists and fetch that value of temp-special, a few sentences later it tells, evaluating this lambda form never even acesses the dynamic environment! 10:46:11 is that difference due to once apply or funcall and once eval ? 10:46:39 i got confused now 10:48:09 -!- dabd [~dabd@a79-169-213-197.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 10:49:55 and it is not a closure, only because it refers to something in the dynamic environment ? 10:50:11 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:52:32 it is in the chapter "duality of syntax" 10:53:05 it is not a closure, since it doesn't refer to any closed over lexical context 10:53:46 ok 10:54:20 it will return the bound value to temp-special at the time of the call: (let ((temp-sepcial 42)) (funcall )) => 42 (let ((temp-special 13)) (funcall )) => 13 10:54:46 banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.164.130] has joined #lisp 10:57:42 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.164.130] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:00:02 i don't get the null-lexical-environment or the global environment conceptwise, puuuh! 11:00:05 oh man 11:00:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-200-4.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:00:39 -!- pickles [~rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01:01 banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.251.193] has joined #lisp 11:01:10 *cmm* notes that many examples in LoL are misindented, and the author likes to call his lists LST 11:01:19 i think i have to read over and over those chapters until it sits... 11:01:24 but hey, great cartoons 11:01:59 oh, no i didn't mean land of lisp, i mean let over lambda 11:02:53 acronym hell 11:02:54 lol 11:02:54 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:03:57 banisterfriend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has joined #lisp 11:04:40 hohum, what is the chapter number ? 11:04:49 oops 11:04:53 homie, ^^^ 11:05:50 3.7 11:06:03 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@121.90.251.193] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:10:46 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.17.144] has joined #lisp 11:11:17 homie, thanks 11:12:55 -!- ddevaal is now known as ddv 11:14:23 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:19:00 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:20:27 tfb [~tfb@92.40.50.43.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:28:20 I have another question about Land of Lisp, regarding this code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/116124 11:29:07 The (or caps lit) part doesn't make any sense to me. If lit is set this line is never reached. Also this command does not make sense when lit is set. 11:29:31 Don't get me wrong, it works. It's just confusing and I'm either not getting it or it's redundant. 11:30:06 <_3b> it shouldn't use EQ to compare characters either :/ 11:31:32 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 11:32:05 *_3b* suspects (or caps lit) should just be caps 11:32:11 I agree. 11:32:52 Ogedei [~user@p5DDB2A6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:33 His take on the eq family was "Use eq for symbols and equal for everything else for now." 11:34:30 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:30 why not just equal for everything? 11:34:47 <_3b> equal would work there, but eql is probably better 11:34:59 What's wrong with eq? 11:35:02 <_3b> (or char= if you know it is always characters, and an error when it isn't is reasonable) 11:35:14 <_3b> EQ doesn't work on characters (portably) 11:35:18 <_3b> or numbers 11:35:29 argh 11:35:32 cYmen: nothing 11:35:42 cYmen: but equal works on symbols too 11:35:57 <_3b> that is the difference between eq and eql... eql is the same as eq except it works on numbers and characters 11:36:10 so, if one wants to keep the minimum of details, why not just use EQUAL for everything 11:36:27 Does Conrad come around here? 11:36:30 <_3b> yeah, equal would be a reasonable default if you want to simplify 11:37:15 *nikodemus* likes EQ 11:37:25 it is beautiful 11:37:28 <_3b> (for starting out that is... you would want to learn the difference between comparing identity and structure pretty soon) 11:38:12 I know that from other programming languages, of course. 11:39:08 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:40:01 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 11:40:16 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:46 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 11:44:41 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:46:03 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.85] has joined #lisp 11:46:10 what version of sbcl do you use here ? 11:46:43 between 1.0.40 and HEAD 11:47:34 i got the let-over-lambda.lisp file and mine complains now about a dispatch-macro characters which shall not be set or no reader for it defined, yet the error occurs on link 357,17 of my file, which is in pandoriclet-get 11:47:52 i don't get it, it is set and the reader too 11:48:26 maybe my sbcl-1.0.43 build is again broken... 11:48:45 though, it is the binary offered 11:48:58 or rather the sources of it 11:49:16 maybe i should try 42 11:49:42 maybe you should understand what's the problem 11:49:58 it tells me there is no #\ 11:50:18 err sorry no #\` reader 11:50:56 what tells you? 11:51:20 no dispatch function defined for #\` 11:51:30 The value NIL 11:51:30 is not of type 11:51:30 (OR (VECTOR CHARACTER) (VECTOR NIL) BASE-STRING PATHNAME STREAM). 11:51:45 and it is the result of which code? 11:51:57 Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has joined #lisp 11:52:02 of pandoriclet-get 11:52:14 what's that? 11:53:42 i guess it's not defined at the compile time 11:53:55 i prescribe some EVAL-WHEN 11:54:39 and stopping using bad code 11:54:43 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 11:57:10 splittist [~John@118.143.4.5] has joined #lisp 11:57:13 morning 11:57:32 hi splittist 11:57:35 good morning 11:58:17 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:59 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@180.151.32.194] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:59:09 mrSpec [~Spec@95.9.89.54] has joined #lisp 11:59:10 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@95.9.89.54] has quit [Changing host] 11:59:10 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 12:00:17 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 12:01:55 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:03:17 -!- Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:03:34 when i disable compile-file it does load without problems, but when i load it wich compile-file it has problems with the reader.... 12:03:57 fe[nl]ix: Found a serious sse2 bug in cmucl 20b. Would you want a patch for that or just take the 2010-11 snapshot to get the fix (and other changes)? 12:04:12 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:01 homie: consult your vendor 12:05:08 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:05:58 rtoym: a patch would be nice 12:06:25 a unified diff would be preferable 12:06:32 upwardindex [~Adium@modemcable004.209-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 12:06:34 fe[nl]ix: An official patch or just something I can send you? 12:06:51 -!- spiaggia [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:07:13 Of course, you could just diff the latest version of compiler/x86/float-sse2.lisp with the previous version. That has the fix. 12:07:13 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-214-83-96.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:10:25 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@124-148-40-217.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:10:46 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 12:11:52 so a macro dispatching a char is not the same as a function dispatching a char ??? 12:12:03 bah 12:13:09 in order to be used as a function a macro has to be defined with the same syntax as a function ? 12:13:26 puuuuhhh 12:13:33 -!- benny [~benny@i577A1DF2.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:13:53 fe[nl]ix: What's your preferred email? cddr.org? c-l.net? Something else? 12:15:11 rtoym: cddr.org 12:15:53 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.138.233] has joined #lisp 12:16:23 what is cddr.org ?? 12:16:30 i get a blank site 12:16:52 err rather a listing which is blank 12:17:14 cddr.org is the rest of the rest of the web. 12:17:35 lol 12:17:40 that was good 12:18:02 homie: it's my domain 12:18:23 i got to car.org now 12:18:24 lol 12:18:51 cadr.org is refreshing too. 12:19:15 try caar.org too 12:20:17 jep, jep did 12:21:45 why did he not begin with the compile-time read macros ....grrr 12:21:50 lol 12:22:00 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:25:02 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755546.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:17 jeti [~user@p548EBDC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:29 fe[nl]ix: Patch sent. 12:28:39 rtoym: btw, you could upload it to the download site as well 12:28:47 IIRC, you did that a few releases ago 12:29:01 that way other packagers(Debian, etc...) will be able to use it 12:29:37 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 12:29:37 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 12:29:37 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:29:40 Yeah, I'm trying to decide if I should make an official patch or not. I guess I probably should. 12:30:37 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 12:32:27 oadams [~oliver@h203-28-241-42.trinity.unimelb.edu.au] has joined #lisp 12:32:34 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ksjbzmnjtuciehkd] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:33:03 urandom__ [~user@p548A2C4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:28 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:35:50 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 12:38:01 dlowe1 [~dlowe@c-76-24-31-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:50 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 12:40:39 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has left #lisp 12:42:15 loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has joined #lisp 12:46:28 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dymswukrzbxjekpa] has joined #lisp 12:46:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:50:33 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:51:46 -!- syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 12:51:57 -!- PCChris [~PCChris@wireless-165-124-199-138.nuwlan.northwestern.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:52:15 syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:24 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:24 -!- syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:54:48 syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:17 Dawgmatix [~dman@c-76-124-9-27.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:36 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.17.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:55:45 nodd [~admin@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:47 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.17.144] has joined #lisp 12:57:13 rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 12:57:59 can anyone explain this? http://pastebin.com/vCPDUNfG 12:59:02 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:59:16 -!- oadams [~oliver@h203-28-241-42.trinity.unimelb.edu.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:00:08 nodd: don't use setf that way 13:00:15 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:01:04 which way then? 13:01:43 more or less you're setting a global variable you haven't yet created 13:02:19 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:02:59 That's not the source of the result that puzzles you, though. 13:03:11 I thought I was setting the place returned by getf... 13:03:19 nodd: setf of getf is allowed to update the place. the place is F 13:03:24 nodd: the place is *not* FOO 13:03:38 nodd: if you were to print F in your dolist, you would see extra entries. 13:04:29 when using setf to add a new entry, it's not updating the existing structure, it's creating new structure with the old structure as the tail, and updating the place that had the original structure. 13:04:31 I understand that, but when the key exists, in the first do, the changes affect foo, it's the second do that puzzles me 13:04:54 Xach: mmmh 13:04:56 nodd: It has to do with modification vs creation. 13:05:09 and assignment vs mutation 13:05:40 need to name result-form somethin other than foo? 13:05:49 syntard: That has little to do with it. 13:05:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:06:16 sic! abstraction shattering! not happy 13:07:00 a plist isn't all that abstract. 13:07:01 so, setf does a copy when adding a key, but it goes in place when it's just modifying? 13:07:25 nodd: no, it doesn't copy. it reuses. 13:07:41 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has left #lisp 13:08:01 is there any place this is explained? 13:08:27 The hyperspec entry on GETF, and Lisp books. 13:08:55 grr 13:09:09 thanks 13:10:33 simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 13:10:33 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@123-243-79-139.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 13:10:33 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 13:12:59 -!- Grahack [~chri@ACaen-156-1-51-156.w90-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 13:14:28 rtoym: what's the sse2 bug? 13:16:06 pkhuong_: (realpart (aref 0)) returns 0. 13:17:32 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:17:38 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-dymswukrzbxjekpa] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:18:23 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:18:30 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:38 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.174.83] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 13:19:01 krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:59 rtoym: known complex? complex double or single? 13:21:05 yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:23 complex double and complex single. 13:21:28 will sbcl and frameworks such as weblocks run under FreeBSD? 13:21:44 The vop realpart/complex-double was wrong. 13:22:13 Raymond Toy? 13:22:29 Yes? 13:22:31 yates: I think so. It's pretty easy to try. 13:22:36 Oh, it's you! 13:22:36 Randy Yates, here! 13:22:38 aha 13:23:06 yeah, i'm giving cl a shot ... 13:23:25 Xach: yeah, i guess i should do that 13:23:34 rtoym: mm.. strange, wrong how? (: 13:23:51 *syntard* hopes cl will give him a shot 13:24:24 i want to trying running hunchentoot et al. frameworks on my ISP 13:24:37 pkhuong_: It did xorpd result, result, move x to result. But in the example the result and x registers are the same, hence, zeroing out x. 13:25:26 ah. I'm doing xor of temporary/unpck. 13:25:33 not sure which is simpler. 13:25:36 -!- az [~az@p5796C3CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:27:29 kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.7] has joined #lisp 13:27:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@114.143.161.7] has quit [Changing host] 13:27:29 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:27:34 -!- nodd [~admin@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 13:29:31 Yeah, I fixed a bug previously where it was xorpd temp, temp, but temp wasn't used. :-) Now it does xorpd temp,temp, mov x to temp, move temp to result, when x and result are the same. 13:30:42 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xsaotvcngtnatalq] has joined #lisp 13:31:31 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:33:03 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:34:41 az [~az@p4FE4F873.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:21 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-152-211.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:38:30 yates: I hope quicklisp can help you try it! 13:39:09 -!- delYsid` [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 13:39:09 delYsid` [~user@debian/developer/mlang] has joined #lisp 13:39:27 -!- delYsid` is now known as delYsid 13:41:33 Xach: i will definitely be incorporating its aid! 13:42:20 Is there a version of McCLIM that works on Windows without CLX? 13:42:58 rtoym: are you still using Xemacs? i switched over to emacs a couple years' back and it's been a good move, i believe 13:43:19 Yes, I still use xemacs. 13:43:46 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:44:35 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:45:06 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 13:47:19 tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:809:597f:9cf6:e96e] has joined #lisp 13:47:27 a gentleman of the old school 13:51:59 If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 13:52:33 (Except in maxima, where if it ain't broke, fix it so it it might be and let someone else pick up the pieces.) 13:52:46 aka "If it ain't broke, break it" 13:53:13 -!- manby-ace [~user@88-96-24-53.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:53:20 Yep. Well, except I don't do that intentionally. Someone else does. 13:53:28 benny [~benny@i577A2A5D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:54:32 enupten [~neptune@117.254.148.11] has joined #lisp 13:55:45 Ok. cmucl-20b-patch-000 available. 13:58:20 Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-47-47.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:59:52 billstclair_ [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has joined #lisp 14:00:36 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:00:40 -!- billstclair_ is now known as billstclair 14:00:46 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@gw3.tacwap.org] has quit [Changing host] 14:00:46 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:03:53 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.17.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:06:24 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:49 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-25-78.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:11:10 -!- splittist [~John@118.143.4.5] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 14:13:35 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:37 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-117.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:19:57 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.17.144] has joined #lisp 14:20:20 ikki [~ikki@189.247.157.188] has joined #lisp 14:20:21 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:21:00 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-117.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 14:21:15 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp 14:25:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.157.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:26:00 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.97.165] has joined #lisp 14:27:03 yay, spatial-trees are back 14:27:37 sorry. The moral there is when Apple tries to sell you something they call a server, don't believe that it can actually do anything 14:31:19 -!- superflit [~superflit@c-24-9-162-197.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: superflit] 14:31:36 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:33:36 -!- Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-47-47.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:34:08 -!- p_l|home [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:34:22 miar1 [~miar1@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:35:51 Krystof: works well for appleish stuff, in SMB setting (time machine, wiki and ical server) 14:36:14 in SR, _you_ serve Apple 14:37:29 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:37:38 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.17.144] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:37:46 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:25 -!- miar1 is now 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#lisp 14:51:17 sweetozkelli [~sweetozke@203.168.37.23] has joined #lisp 14:51:18 freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-117.vpn.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 14:51:34 -!- sweetozkelli [~sweetozke@203.168.37.23] has left #lisp 14:51:38 -!- syntard [~quassel@fl-74-4-76-189.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:51:56 -!- syntard_ [~quassel@204.51.92.251] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:23 syntard [~quassel@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 14:52:42 ikki [~ikki@189.247.157.188] has joined #lisp 14:53:31 sweetozkelli [~sweetozke@203.168.37.23] has joined #lisp 14:53:39 -!- sweetozkelli [~sweetozke@203.168.37.23] has left #lisp 14:54:49 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:54:56 *Xach* looks for beach 15:01:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.157.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:03:45 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:03 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:08 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:04:28 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:38 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-249.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:08:28 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@hy-ovpn1-117.vpn.helsinki.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:08:53 superflit [~superflit@140.226.49.160] has joined #lisp 15:11:35 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [] 15:11:52 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:58 symbole [~yaaic@98.sub-75-193-74.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:21:55 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:23:11 -!- symbole [~yaaic@98.sub-75-193-74.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:26:00 sweetozkelli [~sweetozke@203.168.37.23] has joined #lisp 15:26:04 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-15-21.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 15:26:06 -!- sweetozkelli [~sweetozke@203.168.37.23] has left #lisp 15:26:53 carlocci [~nes@93.37.199.139] has joined #lisp 15:27:00 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-117-60.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:28:06 github pages seem like a nice place to stash docs 15:28:35 above all, it integrates nicely into workflow -- "commit, and they're in" 15:29:14 http://nikodemus.github.com/pileup/ # i'm starting to do penance for all the undocumented things i've released over the years 15:30:26 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:04 nikodemus: it'd be good to have a link to the git page 15:32:16 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@186.220.219.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:32:18 git browser, or how do you call it 15:36:04 ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-15-21.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:51 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:38:34 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:01 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:02 stassats: better? 15:43:45 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 15:46:04 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 15:46:15 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has joined #lisp 15:46:23 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-xsaotvcngtnatalq] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:46:48 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:47:26 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-15-21.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn you have to set yourself on fire.] 15:49:11 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.11.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:49:35 ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-15-21.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:59 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:51:51 nikodemus: yep 15:52:23 *stassats* now can read the source code 15:52:44 i was too lazy to edit the url 15:55:09 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:56:49 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:57:36 -!- _danb_ [~user@124-149-55-13.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:58:29 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@218.82.22.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:59:01 meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-049-194.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 15:59:04 andreas [~andreas@ip-109-45-215-82.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 15:59:11 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:59:19 enupten [~neptune@117.254.148.11] has joined #lisp 16:00:33 nikodemus.github.com is throwing a "500 Internal Server Error" from nginx 16:02:21 Morning! 16:02:37 -!- yates [~yates@nc-76-3-105-199.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: "gotta run"] 16:02:44 *andreas* just found out the hard way that hunchentoot doesn't behave too well under massive load. 16:03:25 Fade: not for me, and there isn't anything there besides a two redirect urls for people who end up there for no good reason :) 16:03:40 Fade: does the pileup link work for you? 16:03:53 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:04:22 and hi nikodemus! would answer your mail if my mail server weren't on the same host just being bogged down by hunchentoot. 16:04:50 heh 16:05:17 no rush. is the answer basically positive or negative? 16:06:18 Write a mail to nibber, of as250. 16:06:57 So it is "I know someone, but you have to talk to him". 16:07:13 excellent :) 16:07:52 now it works. 16:07:58 I guess it was a transient error. 16:09:19 Fade: I got it too 16:09:51 Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-127.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:09:54 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 16:12:56 fe[nl]ix: for the pileup page or for the redirect page? 16:13:08 both 16:13:12 but now it's gone 16:13:36 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:14:11 hm 16:14:57 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:15:23 _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 16:16:11 oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:14 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-162.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 16:23:04 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-148-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:23:54 -!- dlowe1 [~dlowe@c-76-24-31-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:24:39 josemanuel [~josemanue@254.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:24:41 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:22 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu225.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:28:50 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu225.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:31:40 *Xach* wants to write something in CL that can be called from a commit-hook to sync a site to S3 16:31:50 -!- tama [~tama@2001:0:53aa:64c:809:597f:9cf6:e96e] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:33:03 S3 ? 16:33:15 commit-hook ? 16:33:22 quicklisp ? 16:33:32 This reminds me a little of The Big Lebowski. 16:33:54 guten Xach auch 16:33:59 lol 16:35:19 ve [~a@vortis.xen.tardis.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:35:31 *homie* is full drummed 16:35:32 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 16:35:42 Xach: then? 16:36:08 Sulimo: Then what? 16:36:36 sorry, my brain just gets into form after this heavy shake 16:36:42 puuuuuhhh 16:37:07 lol 16:37:21 homie: If you want to write stupid shit useful only for your own amusement, try private messages to yourself. 16:37:54 ok 16:39:36 dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:08 -!- oconnore [~eric@ip68-225-113-244.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:40:37 Would one say that arguments to Lisp functions are "by value" or "by reference" 16:40:39 ? 16:40:48 lisp passes by value 16:41:05 but the values are references 16:41:29 So a copy is always made? 16:41:37 a copy is never made 16:41:47 lisp is "pass by identity" 16:41:48 a new binding is always made 16:42:24 (you can get copies for characters and numbers, though -- but since they are immutable you cannot really tell) 16:42:29 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:42:34 Blkt [~user@93-33-136-83.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:43:09 Well, you can tell sometimes, with EQ. 16:43:14 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-139-181.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 16:43:21 true 16:43:30 good evening everyone! 16:43:44 but not in the sense "i modified it but the caller didn't get the change" 16:44:10 (defun foo (x) (setf x (1+ x)); (defparameter *x* 5); (f *x*) => 6; *x* (value of *x* after calling f on *x*) is still 5 16:44:17 -!- jhuni [~jhuni@udp217774uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:19 for example, you can't write a SWAP function in Lisp (you need to use a macro, e.g. ROTATEF). 16:45:02 Does ClTL2 have a succint section on this topic? 16:45:42 *syntard* wants to know too 16:45:45 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:45:47 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:20 I don't recall CLtL2 going over it in detail, but many language/compiler design texts do 16:46:21 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Quit: Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!] 16:46:59 sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:34 -!- sykopomp [~sykopomp@c-66-41-249-30.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:47:34 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:47:47 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #lisp 16:48:06 It's funny that this detail has escaped me, so I'd like to rexamine my foundations here. 16:49:45 meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-062-199.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:47 'cuz I thought I remembered lists getting changed in odd ways becuause references in the middle got passed to functions that destructively modified their arguments. But this shouldn't be possible, right? So it must have all been in the same lexical block. 16:50:20 easyE: It is very possible. 16:50:44 what about pr's example? 16:51:08 it doesn't use lists 16:51:11 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:49 adeht says new binding is always made, nikodemus copy is never made, what happens? 16:51:57 They are both right. 16:52:28 If you pass a cons to a function and change that cons's car or cdr in the function, there is only one object that gets changed. 16:53:06 The function has a local binding between a variable name and that single object's value, and changing that binding does not affect bindings in the caller. But affecting the object affects that same, single object. 16:53:32 -!- meandi [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-049-194.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:54:48 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:01 so in pr's example, the binding gets changed, not the object 16:55:06 correct 16:55:39 heh! 16:55:45 furthermore, numbers are immutable objects, they can never be modified 16:56:45 that's what setf goes by? if can't change object, change the binding? 16:56:56 if that makes sense 16:57:03 setf doesn't do anything by itself 16:57:04 no.. it depends on what you setf 16:57:11 ok 16:57:23 setf is just a mechanism for calling other things 16:57:24 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-139-181.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:19 colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-71-184.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:59:09 can one print a binding? 16:59:15 setting a variable doesn't call anything, it modifies the binding associate with it.. you can think of setf delegating to setq in that case, but it's not a function call 16:59:38 you can print its value, or its name 17:00:22 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:00:26 bindings are not first-class objects, if they were, CL would have a pass-by-reference mechanism 17:01:51 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:02:00 oconnore [~eric@wsip-70-168-242-70.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:26 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:02:30 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-118-140.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:02:49 but isn't that implemented as by-reference? 17:03:08 pointers or something 17:03:23 it's by value, but some values are references 17:03:30 pointers are not references. earlier Lisps had something close to pointers, called locatives 17:03:48 I meant, implementation details 17:04:12 but ok, i see 17:04:49 or you can say it's by references, but some references are values 17:05:11 no, that would be wrong 17:05:34 would it? 17:05:46 adeht: (defun reference (x) (cons x nil)) (defmacro deref (x) `(car ,x)) 17:06:18 dlowe: this is pointer-like, not reference 17:06:43 ah, the old implicit pointer insanity 17:06:59 template void foo(T & a, T & b) { T c = a; a = b; b = c; } 17:07:10 write an analogous Lisp function 17:07:32 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:35 function? 17:07:58 yes, it may work on those "non-value references" you suggest 17:08:00 adeht: CL doesn't have copy constructors or operator= 17:08:44 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:08:47 fe[nl]ix: this is true, but consider it for integers 17:09:04 why in c++ you have a template, but in lisp you want a function? 17:09:29 stassats: ok, so the analogous for template<> void foo; 17:10:19 -!- delYsid [~user@debian/developer/mlang] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:35 the point is that Lisp doesn't have a pass-by-reference mechanism, it only has a pass-by-value mechanism. if you want to modify bindings you need special operators or macros 17:10:36 in context of "by value" vs "by reference", references _are_ pointers 17:11:05 -!- ehu [~ehuels@109.33.87.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:11:48 Perhaps it would be clearer to avoid the terms `by reference' and `by value', in favour of `by identity' and `by copy'. 17:12:00 i agree 17:12:12 faux` [~user@c-199f70d5.035-128-67626713.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:12:18 I agree as well, but sometimes this only masks the confusion with the former terms 17:12:50 so I would say that Lisp is pass-by-identity, but not if the context is pass-by-value vs. pass-by-reference 17:12:52 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@46.56.138.233] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:13:03 yes 17:13:57 Hmmm. I follow until the last statement. 17:14:42 Is there a reference (ha ha) to what pass-by-identity means? 17:15:05 easyE: I believe Kent M. Pitman coined the term in one of his c.l.l posts 17:15:30 though i guess you could say that numbers and characters are pass by value and everything else is pass by reference. Ie. mutable objects are never copied on call, and only way for a callee to cause action at distance in the caller is by mutating the object 17:15:57 nikodemus: no, I would say that this is the primary reason for confusion 17:15:57 easyE, suppose you create a cons, and pass it as an argument to nikodemus. If nikodemus modifies the argument he received, then you will see the modification reflected in your cons -- it's the same cons. 17:16:50 nikodemus: pass-by-value means new bindings are created, whereas pass-by-reference means the same bindings are passed.. it's not about whether the objects referenced by the bindings are copied or not 17:17:00 nikodemus: no, pass by reference would be (let ((x 42)) (foo x) [x could be bound to something else]) 17:17:16 it's just that nearly all the values in CL are references. 17:18:06 oops, right 17:18:09 -!- syntard [~quassel@204.51.92.251] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:32 i think we're all agreed that they are stupid terms :) 17:18:38 Sure! 17:18:48 it's like arguing whether the glass is half empty or half full 17:18:58 peterhil [~peterhil@91.153.127.82] has joined #lisp 17:19:11 Well, it would be nice to establish some baseline. It certainly should be possible. 17:19:40 pass by mu 17:20:04 i think giving more traction to pass-by-identity would be good 17:20:27 Is there a Lisp form by which I can assert whether a variable references a mutable object? 17:20:53 why would you need it? 17:20:54 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755546.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:05 syntard [~quassel@204.51.92.251] has joined #lisp 17:21:06 For edification in this debate. 17:21:20 ("debate" a little strong perhaps) 17:21:33 easyE: (defun immutable-for-sure (x) (typep x '(or number character))) 17:21:38 gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:55 nikodemus: ok, that's easy. 17:22:04 clhs constantp 17:22:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_consta.htm 17:22:10 anything else could be mutable in principle 17:22:24 But aren't symbols immutable? 17:22:37 (setf (symbol-value '*) :foo) ; nope 17:22:43 stassats: constantp is wrong 17:22:50 Right. 17:23:05 adeht: wrong in what respect? 17:23:06 stassats: e.g., (constantp (list 'quote 123)) ==> T on sbcl, even though the cons passed is mutable 17:23:27 adeht: I think you don't understand what constantp computes. 17:23:29 re. pass by identity -- aren't python and ruby p-b-i as well? 17:23:43 and java. 17:24:03 smalltalk has #become, but i think it qualifies too 17:24:43 pkhuong: why? I used to misunderstand what it passed, discovered a flaw in Norvig's Scheme implementation in PAIP, and on further discussion with Norvig, we both figured it out (and it turned out that it was indeed a flaw in his implementation, corrected by one of his solutions to an exercise) 17:24:43 adeht: 'quote and 123 are constant 17:25:07 adeht: constantp works on forms. 17:25:13 stassats: so what? you can replace 123 with anything, really 17:25:19 pkhuong: I know that 17:25:42 pkhuong: I am simply asserting that (constantp X) doesn't imply that X is immutable 17:25:43 why are you telling me that the form can be mutated then? 17:25:46 Well, dinner and family beckons, so you will have to execuse me. Thanks for the first slaps towards Enlightenment... 17:26:33 ikki [~ikki@189.247.132.78] has joined #lisp 17:27:07 codd [~admin@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:14 pkhuong: because sometimes it can?.. in my example, the argument passed to constantp is the result of evaluating (list 'quote 123).. which is a cons that can be mutated at will 17:27:19 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.50.43.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:27:47 cgore [~kvirc@99-103-82-200.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:07 Hi all. Is there any way to run step by step in slime? 17:28:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.132.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:28:30 adeht: but the form (quote 123) is a constant form: it always evaluates to 123. 17:28:31 what's the issue here? constantp has nothing to do with immutability -- but modifiying constants is unspeficied, so if you do it you're on your own 17:28:56 pkhuong: yes, but that isn't the point 17:29:35 adeht: talk about (constantp (list 'quote (cons t t))) and your complaint makes some sense :) 17:29:42 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:30:10 nikodemus: even then, modifying the cons is unspecified behaviour. 17:30:11 nikodemus: that's why I said 123 is irrelevant 17:30:13 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 17:30:23 adeht: so by irrelevant, you mean extremely relevant? 17:30:28 pkhuong_: like i just said 17:30:41 nikodemus: so the complain doesn't really make sense either. 17:31:04 pkhuong: the context was about declaring some object to be immutable.. how can you declare, using constantp, that an object is immutable? 17:31:22 mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:31 it does make some sense. especially since constantp was offered as answer to easyE who was confused about "what is mutable" 17:31:42 adeht: i see 17:32:32 (constantp (make-hash-table)) => T ; so CONSTANTP is a terrible answer for easyE 17:32:35 well, strictly speaking, if *forms* are used, constantp is correct, as long as unspecified behaviour isn't used (: 17:32:52 (constant '(make-hash-table)) => NIL. 17:33:41 why? it's not a quote form? 17:34:33 syntard: that's (constantp (list 'make-hash-table)) not (constantp (list 'quote (list 'make-hash-table))) 17:34:39 pkhuong: are you saying that (let ((x (cons t t))) (assert (constantp (list 'quote x))) (setf (car x) nil)) has unspecified behavior? 17:34:53 anyways, easyE was asking about objects, not forms, and there is no way to pass an arbitrary object to constantp that tells you anything about mutability 17:35:33 adeht: absolutely not. 17:35:49 pkhuong: then what is it that is immutable? 17:36:32 the value to which the form (quote (t . t)) evaluates is immutable. 17:37:25 jdz [~jdz@host27-104-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:37:34 if #1=(cons t t) and the form is (quote #1#), it obviously evaluates to #1#, but #1# is mutable 17:37:41 adeht: (defmacro foo (x) (when (constantp x) (let ((nx (gensym))) `(let ((,nx ,x)) (when (consp ,nx) (setf (car ,nx) t)))))) 17:37:47 it's just that it must be #1#, and not some other cons 17:37:51 that is undefined country there 17:39:15 adeht: in your example the form that was passed to constantp was not evaluated, so no nasal demons 17:39:35 nikodemus: that is why I say that it cannot be used to declare something as immutable 17:40:09 nikodemus: even if you evaluated (quote #1#), it would still not make #1# immutable 17:40:19 (let* ((c (cons t t)) (f (list 'quote c))) (assert (constantp f)) (setf (car (eval f)) nil) c) 17:40:31 adeht: of course it doesn't make it immutable 17:40:41 _no-one_ has been saying it does 17:40:54 -!- colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-71-184.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:41:22 colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-71-184.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:41:48 nikodemus: your snippet attracts nasal demons? 17:41:51 i'm saying it makes no sense as an example for easyE. pkhuong_ is saying that if constantp say T for a form, you should (and are allowed when optimizing stuff) consider the results of evaluting that form immutable 17:42:31 but really, the only exception is quote; after that you really have immutable values. 17:42:45 to be fair, i'm not sure it has unspecified behaviour unless you use the compiler 17:42:47 (quote... and non-symbol atoms) 17:42:52 nikodemus: right. 17:43:55 So, dynamic-extent: If I have: (let ((y (list 1 2)) (x (make-foo :a y))) (foo-a x)), that's bad, because SBCL decides that y should also be dynamic-extent, so the return value is garbage. 17:44:14 a) Is SBCL correct in so doing? It's not obvious to me that y is "otherwise inaccessible". 17:45:00 er, pretend I wrote (declare (dynamic-extent x)) in there 17:45:02 foom: i assume you meant to have declare X dynamic-exten there? 17:45:06 heh 17:45:20 b) If you write it instead like: (let ((y (list 1 2)) (x (make-foo))) (declare (dynamic-extent x)) (setf (foo-a x) y) (foo-a x)) 17:45:24 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 17:45:27 sbcl doesn't treat y dynamic-extent 17:45:33 nikodemus: my question is what you mean by "immutable" then.. do you mean that in the quote case it will result in the same cons (which I agree), or do you mean that you cannot modify the cons (which I think is wrong) 17:45:33 is that just because it's not smart enough? 17:46:02 that is, does the spec allow setting a slot to transfer dynamic-extentness to the value so set? 17:46:51 c) what if I had written (let ((x (make-foo))) (declare (dynamic-extent x)) (setf (foo-a x) (list 1 2)) (foo-a x)) 17:47:05 foom: not sure. it works when setting binding itself... 17:47:30 http://paste.lisp.org/display/116141 17:47:38 so we have a complete example 17:48:15 pkhuong_: yeah, but the spec says for any value the binding takes on, and it's transitive so, does the "any value" bit also transit to sub-slots? 17:48:32 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 17:48:58 foom: part of the problem is that the spec doesn't define "otherwise inaccessibility" anywhere properly (at least i could not find it) 17:48:59 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 17:49:01 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2C4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:49:08 nikodemus: i couldn't find a proper defn either 17:49:26 there seem to be two ways to reason about it: structural inaccessibility and lexical inaccessibility 17:49:30 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:44 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-31-62.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:50:04 or "potential accessibility" and "actual accessedness" if you will 17:50:15 I would have expected potential accessibility to be the rule 17:50:23 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:50:26 that is, the value isn't available in any variable still in scope 17:51:23 that's my "lexical accessibility" 17:51:37 gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:01 but so: sbcl currently takes the structural approach to determining accessibility, mainly because it seemed like the most useful one 17:52:18 -!- Guthur [c0c1f50f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.193.245.15] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:52:47 Under what circumstances is that an important thing to do? 17:52:47 fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has joined #lisp 17:52:56 if it keeps biting people who aren't me in the ass, we should downgrade back to lexical accessibility and use the structural definition only with TRULY-DYNAMIC-EXTENT 17:53:12 If you actually wanted that here, you probably would've said y is d-x too 17:53:32 foom: stack allocating the results of inlined functions 17:53:58 but wait, under my rule that's fine 17:53:59 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-8-187.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:12 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:54:13 because at the time you're binding "x", the inlined function's scope is gone 17:54:17 sure 17:54:48 -!- ace4016 [~ace4016@adsl-32-15-21.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:55:26 so it's okay to dx allocate it. Only if you give the function-call result a name in the same (or more outer) scope than the dx object creation should you not be allowed to dx allocate it. 17:55:46 -!- oconnore [~eric@wsip-70-168-242-70.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:55:58 foom: but consider (lambda (x) (let ((y (cons t t))) (cons x y)) 17:56:29 and (let ((z (funcall ))) (declare (dynamic-extent z)) ...) 17:57:32 there the question is: does dxness propagate into the arguments of an inline function too? 17:58:09 foom: structural accessibility says yes 17:58:34 i have no idea what the lexical rule would say 17:58:58 And "my-rule" says yes too, but only if the argument to the funcall is an unnamed temporary 17:58:59 that is, if those arguments are used elsewhere, then it won't propagate 17:59:18 -!- andreas [~andreas@ip-109-45-215-82.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:59:51 the only place where i think the structural rule has unfortunate consequences is when you have a dx &rest list in an inline function 18:00:42 since dx rest list in an inline function doesn't benefit anyone anyways, we should probably just ignore the declaration for the inline case 18:01:04 ace4016 [ace4016@adsl-33-40-124.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:19 That is: (let ((z (funcall (list 1 2)))) ...: the list is dx allocated. (let ((z (let ((a (list 1 2))) (funcall a))) ...: the list is not d-x allocated 18:01:50 foom: so, but in that lambda, is Y dx allocated? 18:02:12 yes 18:02:17 why? 18:02:33 because at the point of dx declaration, y is no longer in scope. 18:02:45 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@254.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:03:32 hm 18:04:55 -!- lanthan_afh [~ze@p50992b91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:05:11 s0ng0ku [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:22 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255513.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:42 i *think* the problem on implementation level is that by the time dx machinery looks at stuff the Y in _your_ example has already been let-substituted, so there is no way to tell it apart from a direct (LIST 1 2) argument to MAKE-FOO 18:09:06 of course that doesn't preclude making let-substitution mark things it produces as having originally had bindings 18:12:00 ecm [~oh@unaffiliated/lxnch] has joined #lisp 18:12:07 Hi! I am new to CL (comming from clojure). Is there a way of having a recursive function call in let-bindings like (let ((f (lambda (...) (f ...))))) ? 18:12:21 foom: if you want to talk more, perhaps #sbcl is the place :) 18:12:32 s0ng0ku: self-referential local functions can be constructed with LABELS. 18:12:55 Xach: thanks 18:12:59 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:13:06 clhs labels 18:13:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm 18:13:50 yeah, that is i was searching for! 18:17:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-135-200-4.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:17:13 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:17:17 s0ng0ku: Stop worrying and love the Hyperspec. 18:19:08 -!- phrixos [~miar1@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:20:21 phrixos [~miar1@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:21:32 s0ng0ku: you want to switch to cl? 18:22:50 nikodemus: that still leaves the other question of spec-lawyering: when setfing a slot in a dx-object to a new object, are you allowed to dx-allocate the new object? 18:23:31 -!- enupten [~neptune@117.254.148.11] has quit [Quit: quitting...] 18:23:38 foom: i'm pretty sure no 18:24:05 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:24:20 not sure how to formally rule that out of hand, though 18:24:33 but sbcl at least isn't in danger of doing that 18:24:47 -!- phrixos [~miar1@bs0176.nerc-bas.ac.uk] has quit [Changing host] 18:24:47 phrixos [~miar1@gnu/webmaster/phrixos] has joined #lisp 18:24:56 -!- cgore [~kvirc@99-103-82-200.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Good bye!] 18:25:20 I know sbcl doesn't, but I was wondering if that was a non-portable assumption (not that I'm opposed to depending on such things generally, of course. :)), or if it's actually forbidden 18:26:53 I guess it's forbidden, because it only talks about "otherwise inaccessible part of vij at any time when vij becomes the value of vari" 18:27:23 but, it doesn't talk about otherwise-inaccessible parts of vij at times other than when vij becomes the value of vari 18:27:57 syntard: maybe :) i think clojure is very slow but i like the functional programming style... sorry, i am away now --> cooking 18:29:27 ls 18:29:33 *syntard* likes having access to readtable, just in case 18:31:39 right, i was just looking at that too 18:31:51 so the time constraint would seem to prohibit it 18:34:38 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:35:20 -!- Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-55-127.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:35:56 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:37:11 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:37:30 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:38:08 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:38:59 -!- Ogedei [~user@p5DDB2A6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:43:11 -!- Ragnaroek [~chatzilla@pD951F5EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:46:40 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:47:40 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 18:49:41 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:53:18 Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 18:53:53 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:55:30 s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 18:56:03 -!- _s1gma [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:56:44 Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-58-172.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:57:03 oconnore [~eric@wsip-70-168-242-70.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:12 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 19:00:57 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:06:20 -!- oconnore [~eric@wsip-70-168-242-70.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:06 redline6561: hey, thanks! you're #1! 19:08:28 -!- Zhuangzi` [~user@host25-40-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:08:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:09:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:12:46 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:13:42 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 19:14:36 logia_th [~nmo@83.40.42.77] has joined #lisp 19:15:51 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 19:16:13 Xach: How much are you spending on hosting for Quicklisp? 19:17:17 johs: Hosting is cheap, testing (ec2 or hardware for VMs, windows) is more expensive. 19:17:30 S3 is a great value and I would recommend it to anyone. 19:17:38 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:18:11 my Amazon bill last month was $10, and about $9 of that was for EC2 usage. 19:18:30 I've been running an Ubuntu VM on my macbook, and it works ok, as long as I'm not sitting at my laptop :) 19:18:32 that's not bad 19:18:51 phrixos: nope. though I had to drop ec2 for testing, because the $9 rang up after just a couple days. 19:19:46 I'd like to invest in a proper server for VMs, and a way to run the Windows lisps I want to test. Franz and LispWorks have donated licenses, but I don't have the software. 19:22:03 Bronsa [~bronsa@host142-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:22:12 yeah, i do most of my dev work in a debian vm on my mbp 19:22:18 virtualbox rocks 19:22:29 I am very glad I saw dave cooper using it at ILC. 19:23:18 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:23:55 i just hope oracle don't manage to sink it 19:24:52 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050065092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 19:24:58 any plans to stick a paypal button or something on the quicklisp site? 19:25:12 i'd happily donate a few quid to testing infrastructure 19:25:26 especially since my current project is likely to end up relying on quicklisp quite heavily ;) 19:25:46 phrixos: funny you should ask. see quicklisp.org as of about 20 minutes ago. 19:26:15 ah, was that the first part of this conversation? 19:26:19 phrixos: moments after i posted to twitter about it, redline6561 was the first to donate. 19:26:35 my net link tends to be up and down at 3pm local 19:26:40 its gets swamped by met downloads 19:27:13 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:27:15 perils of 384k satellite :( 19:27:45 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 19:30:12 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host142-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:31:49 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:31:55 Bronsa [~bronsa@host142-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:33:39 -!- s1gma_ [~herpderp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:34 done :) 19:35:54 Thanks! 19:36:11 thank _you_ 19:36:41 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:41 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:49 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-136-83.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:37:28 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:38:47 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:45:56 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-92-25.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:53:30 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:20 -!- s0ng0ku [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:55:58 s0ng0ku [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:10 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279633486.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 20:00:37 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 20:03:54 Xach: I just tried to donate but was stymied by my inability to use Pay Pal. I'll try again later when I'm at home. 20:05:01 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:17 -!- sirmacik [~bolek@host-86-63-158-4.nplay.net.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:05:41 sorry about that. i know not everyone likes paypal, but it's the easiest thing for me. 20:05:51 Paypal wouldn't take my visa either... then I used my bank's one-time number generator to out fox it 20:06:34 s/bank/credit card company/ 20:08:04 kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has joined #lisp 20:08:38 thanks for the extra effort! 20:11:45 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:12:03 Xach: if only the ASDF2 v. existing software package edge cases were as easy to out fox for you... :) 20:12:20 Xach: yeah. I'm planning to use it for CQ but the fact that I almost never manage to use it on my first try makes me nervous. 20:14:40 gigamonkey: wepay.com advertises itself as a less stressful alternative... if you hadn't seen it 20:15:11 -!- banisterfriend [~horse@203.160.118.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:15:59 payment gateway blues? 20:16:00 -!- Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:16:23 Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 20:17:00 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host142-120-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:17:03 btw, did I read right, and SBCL automatically allocates a PTY for each invocation of run-program? 20:19:31 I think if you pass :pty t (or a stream), it does. 20:19:46 I don't recall for certain, but I think the default is nil 20:19:51 antifuchs: apparently t is default 20:20:08 huh 20:20:17 that seems unsettling 20:20:41 davazp [~user@83.54.167.3] has joined #lisp 20:20:49 :pty Either t, nil, or a stream. Unless nil, the subprocess is established under a pty. 20:21:16 I guess it might mean that you need to provide :pty t or :pty 20:21:38 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:21:43 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:43 -!- dnm [~dnm@static-71-166-174-24.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:25:52 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:27:16 gigamonkey: Google Checkout is also be pretty easy to set up -- you can just put a Buy Now button on a page. 20:27:43 Hmmm, meant to address that to Xach. 20:28:44 reb: I've heard good things about it. I worry about it ending up like froogle or wave or usenet, though. 20:29:31 tama [~tama@cpe-24-27-104-97.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:31:44 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 20:32:11 Xach: there are worse fates than getting bought by google, I suppose 20:32:16 wepay is u.s. only 20:32:26 you could end up getting bought by Nokia, for instance 20:32:38 and nobody wants that. 20:32:40 -!- symbole_ [~chatzilla@216.214.176.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]] 20:33:12 stephenry [~user@cpc2-grnk1-0-0-cust713.14-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:30 (not even the people who are getting money to be part of nokia, I gather) 20:35:35 -!- kenanb [~kenanb@94.54.235.211] has left #lisp 20:35:48 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:36:35 Google Checkout won't disappear, if only because of its use in Android 20:36:54 (oh, that fate) 20:38:13 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:43:13 -!- stephenry [~user@cpc2-grnk1-0-0-cust713.14-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:16 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 20:43:37 banisterfiend [~horse@198-48-0-233-dhcp.cafenet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:43:50 p_l|uni: why would one start a process under a pty ? are there CL terminal emulators ? 20:44:12 fe[nl]ix: some processes open /dev/tty for interaction 20:44:20 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:44:20 instead of using stdin/stdout 20:45:49 -!- Edward__ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-58-172.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 20:46:19 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:47:02 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:57 -!- davazp [~user@83.54.167.3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:58 fe[nl]ix: to convince ssh to interactively prompt for a password of course! 20:48:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:48:30 *drewc* remembers trying to do something like that inside the mcclim listener 20:48:48 xan_ [~xan@173-164-241-129-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:02 -!- tama [~tama@cpe-24-27-104-97.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:52:32 egn [~egn@li101-203.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:46 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:53:53 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:54:25 xan__ [~xan@208-90-213-27.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:45 -!- faux` [~user@c-199f70d5.035-128-67626713.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:56:01 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:04 -!- xan_ [~xan@173-164-241-129-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:57:05 now...how do I turn this ext:shell that land of lisp uses from clisp into something sbclish 20:57:15 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 20:57:31 something is wrong with my sb-ext:run-program substitute 20:57:35 Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:58:03 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:42 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:58 Can I somehow get more output than: #? Something debugworthy would be nice. :) 21:00:22 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-24-23-182-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 21:03:23 cYmen: you in slime? 21:03:38 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:03:58 cYmen: you could, i believe, use :output *standard-output* to send the output to the slime output stream. otherwise check *inferior-lisp*. 21:05:06 xan_ [~xan@173-164-241-129-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:17 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:02 cYmen: clisp's exec functions totally suck. run away from it 21:06:37 fe[nl]ix: did i miss context from earlier? cymen's recent message is about sbcl. 21:06:42 hm..I am in slime but setting :output doesn't seem to do much..let me try :error 21:07:05 cYmen: is the output in *inferior-lisp*? 21:07:33 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 21:07:55 Doesn't seem so. It ends in a report about swank being started. 21:08:11 -!- xan__ [~xan@208-90-213-27.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:08:18 cYmen: what command are you trying to run? 21:08:26 Xach: I think I read ext:shell somewhere, and that's clisp 21:08:41 cYmen: status 1 can be misleading - you get it if sbcl couldn't find the program to run, or if the program exits with status 1 21:08:48 <_3b> cYmen: is (sb-ext:run-program "dot" (list "-tPng" "-O" fname) :search t) the command you are looking for? 21:08:49 cYmen: (i wish that was differentiated) 21:08:59 <_3b> fe[nl]ix: the goal is to run some clisp code on sbcl 21:09:12 quantum [~nurlan@109.127.28.132] has joined #lisp 21:09:16 ah, I thought the contrary 21:09:20 _3b: My capitalization was different but I tried that... 21:09:46 Xach: It seems to work in general. I can get ls to work. 21:09:52 <_3b> do you have dot installed? 21:10:00 xan__ [~xan@173-164-241-129-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:15 Yes. 21:10:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@78-056.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:10:28 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:10:29 -!- xan_ [~xan@173-164-241-129-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:10:56 _3b: Copied your line. Doesn't work either. 21:11:02 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:11:08 -!- boscop_ is now known as boscop 21:11:11 If I don't put any parameters it returns 0. 21:11:50 Maybe it's in the wrong directory.. 21:11:58 *cYmen* fumbles around. 21:12:08 <_3b> yeah, looks like it should be "-Tpng", so the command i pasted is probably wrong 21:12:20 <_3b> and -o 21:12:39 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:04 *_3b* blames whoever i copied it from out of the irc logs :p 21:13:10 hahaha 21:13:18 stupid dot 21:13:28 -O! 21:13:31 <_3b> ah, heh... tnat was responding to you anyway... guess it must not have worked :) 21:13:46 Well, I think I found the problem. 21:13:51 *Xach* could have used that.../me used "bash" ("-c" (format nil "dot -Tpng foo.dot > foo.png")) a few days ago 21:13:54 The fundamental problem is that I'm not getting the error output. 21:14:06 <_3b> ah, maybe it wasn't, you were just asking something else at the same time, irc is confusing :) 21:14:40 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 21:15:27 i'm confused 21:15:30 *_3b* wonders if we should start a LoL faq page on cliki yet 21:16:44 -!- s0ng0ku [~tg@dslb-088-071-150-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:16:48 The root of the problem was this: I had a (print "}")) instead of a (princ "}")). It naturally messed up the dot file. 21:17:21 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181130165.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:17:32 please suggest me a free book about lisp 21:18:00 quantum: http://gigamonkeys.com/book is very good. 21:18:14 banisterfriend [~horse@198-48-0-233-dhcp.cafenet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:18:21 sykopompm, thanks 21:19:19 quantum: they're all free if you have a library nearby! 21:19:22 <_3b> ah, i guess it should be -O, yay for incomplete man pages :p 21:19:32 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@198-48-0-233-dhcp.cafenet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:19:37 -!- banisterfriend is now known as banisterfiend 21:19:50 Xach, maybe 21:19:52 hm..so does anybody have an idea how to get error output redirect with sb-ext:run-program? 21:20:03 because :error *standard-output* doesn't seem to cut it 21:21:03 xan_ [~xan@173-164-241-129-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:03 BrandLeeJones [~BrandLeeJ@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 21:21:05 <_3b> seems to work here, maybe check *inferior-lisp* buffer? 21:21:39 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:22:40 hm..quick way to reliably get some error output? 21:22:52 <_3b> pass it an invalid file name? 21:23:38 oh yeah works now...must have messed up a combination of things earlier 21:23:57 anyway, thanks for the help and the answer is: (sb-ext:run-program "dot" (list "-Tpng" "-O " fname) :search t)) 21:24:17 (The answer to the question about life, the universe and all that stuff in the land of lisp.) 21:24:19 -!- xan__ [~xan@173-164-241-129-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:25:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:25:42 -!- meandi2 [~meandi@dyndsl-178-142-062-199.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 21:29:13 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 21:31:29 urandom__ [~user@p548A5D56.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:07 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f755546.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:32:29 -!- xan_ [~xan@173-164-241-129-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:33:28 -!- udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:33:40 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.228.254] has joined #lisp 21:34:01 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:34:06 xan_ [~xan@173-164-241-129-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@173-164-241-129-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:35:27 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:37:01 -!- krl [~krl@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:38:07 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:39:25 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:41 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:40:45 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:40:59 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.63.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:41:34 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-117-60.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 21:42:04 theBlackDragon [~dragon@83.101.84.153] has joined #lisp 21:43:11 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 21:43:26 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-175-71.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:28 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-8-187.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:45:01 -!- jdz [~jdz@host27-104-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:45:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-166-249.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:46 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:50:00 -!- p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:51:24 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:20 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:56:02 -!- Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:25 Kad_k_LaP [~LaPingvin@187.87.224.70] has joined #lisp 21:56:54 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 21:58:41 Edward_ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-58-172.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:00:08 -!- ecm [~oh@unaffiliated/lxnch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:00:58 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:04:07 rvirding [~chatzilla@h137n1c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:18 p_l|uni [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:09:10 Good evening everyone! 22:09:47 evenin', beach 22:10:47 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:11:54 colbseton_ [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-53-78.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:13:05 hi beach! 22:13:37 beach: someone asked me how to run mcclim on windows. i didn't know, can you tell me? 22:14:26 Xach: I can't. Last time I used Windows was more than 10 years ago, when McCLIM didn't exist. 22:14:43 -!- colbseton` [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-71-184.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:16:15 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 22:17:24 Xach: my impression is that it's the "install the xserver" route 22:21:16 Should I avoid using with-slots in a macro definition? Or, is it recommended to use the (variable-name slot-name) form for slots, so that I can use a gensym for variable-name? 22:21:56 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:22:05 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-60-2.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 22:22:28 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:22:56 austinh: for the most part, i usually abide by 'avoid with-slots' in almost all cases 22:24:10 drewc: Thanks. Looking at my code, there is actually no reason to use a gensym if I just use slot-value in the expression. 22:26:12 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 22:26:24 banisterfriend [~horse@198-48-0-233-dhcp.cafenet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:27:14 ...or the readers. I don't know why I'm gravitating towards slot-value more often lately. 22:28:26 -!- banisterfiend [~horse@198-48-0-233-dhcp.cafenet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:29:03 i often use slot value when implementing a protocol, but slot-value is never a part of a protocol 22:29:53 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:05 I find slot-value to be a bit harder to read... not sure why 22:32:26 (hm, it isn't in the function position, so that might be it) 22:32:59 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:22 I think I was abusing slot-value as a kind of poor man's private interface, but that sounds ill conceived now. 22:36:05 xan_ [~xan@c-24-5-71-146.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:59 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:39:11 yeah, just don't export the accessor from your package, and you're all set (: 22:39:19 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:36 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:41 austinh: that's because you should write code around protocols! 22:39:44 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 22:39:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 22:40:39 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:43 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 22:41:29 udzinari [~user@209.158.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:43:41 sykopomp: maybe so 22:44:46 dore [~dore@athedsl-198232.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:46:38 -!- Edward_ [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-58-172.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:48:11 I've written a dozen related functions, all of which take the same optional parameter. Then I write one that additionally takes several keyword parameters and I get a warning about mixing optional and keyword parameters. 22:48:44 Would you go back and change all those other methods to use a keyword instead of an optional? 22:50:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 22:50:43 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.100.228.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:51:31 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:52:19 austinh: as long as you know what you're doing, and the keyword parameters don't make sense without the optional argument. 22:52:34 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:52:42 i tend to avoid optional args 22:52:44 -!- colbseton_ [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-53-78.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:52:46 -!- dore [~dore@athedsl-198232.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:52:55 &key is a friend to easy code evolution 22:53:27 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53:33 Otherwise, I'd think hard to come up with a consistent scheme. for instance, maybe you can use dynamic binding to get even more convenience than optional parameters, and use keywords everywhere. 22:53:34 pkhuong_: That's a good point, but no, the optional argument is unrelated to the keyword parameters. 22:53:52 i'd say 80% of the time, i defgeneric with &key &allow-, even if i don't need the keywords yet... because i usually do :) 22:54:38 and yeah, almost any time a function uses a special, i pass that in via a defualt value for a keyword 22:54:44 ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has joined #lisp 22:54:53 The optional parameter is of the &optional (connection *connection*) variety. 22:55:46 austinh: a keyword parameter doesn't too bad then. 22:56:13 austinh: yeah, i'd prefer a keyword there 22:57:09 Thanks! Other than their obvious differences, I've taken optional arguments and keyword arguments to connote different things, but I guess that breaks down when you try to mix them. 23:00:24 i think if &optional didn't exist i wouldn't miss it 23:00:51 well, that's not true 23:01:11 i use &optional for functions of zero or one arguments often 23:02:40 jdz [~jdz@host188-104-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 23:04:42 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.123.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:41 -!- quantum [~nurlan@109.127.28.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:08:14 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-58-173.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:08:18 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-58-173.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:10:33 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:11:14 Kerrick [~Kerrick@b11wi-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 23:11:26 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-155.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:14:32 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A5D56.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:14 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@stu225.queens.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:15:18 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable075.97-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:15:30 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:14 unkanon [~unkanon@dyn-160-39-34-114.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #lisp 23:16:42 -!- V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:18:20 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:18:42 V-ille [~ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fe4efb00-215.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 23:22:53 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:24:13 -!- fgump [~gauthamg@188.74.82.177] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:24:33 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 23:24:58 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:25:37 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-2-148-187.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:25 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:30:07 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:30:17 -!- codd [~admin@148.Red-79-148-241.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Client Exiting] 23:34:49 -!- trigen [~MSX@81.18.253.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:34:56 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.234.176] has joined #lisp 23:38:11 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-28-73.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:41:08 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-199-67.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:35 -!- chewbran1a is now known as chewbranca 23:43:55 -!- Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-175-71.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:50:31 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-199-67.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:50:47 Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-195-158.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:01 -!- banisterfriend [~horse@198-48-0-233-dhcp.cafenet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53:27 Salamander__ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-115-46.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:30 -!- Salamander_ [~Salamande@ppp118-210-195-158.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:56:16 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:56:38 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.53.85] has joined #lisp