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seconds] 02:18:11 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:18:25 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:19:06 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 02:22:59 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:27 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-206-28-19.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 02:29:41 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:31:10 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:31:55 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:44:29 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:24 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 02:46:34 rich_holygoat: all booked for reno? 02:46:58 not yet... got a lot of travel coming up, so need to see if it'll fit in 02:47:03 starting with Mozilla in October 02:50:18 dang it all 02:52:46 quite so 02:52:58 my calendar is hilarious 02:53:36 do you get to rub elbows with shaver? 02:53:59 won't really be rubbing elbows with anyone -- continuing to work remotely 02:54:40 double dang. i could have given you so many inside jokes. 02:54:46 well, one, anyway. 02:54:47 but I report up through VP of devops 02:54:53 so parallel, I guess 02:57:20 -!- lat [~lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:18 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:03:30 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:05:11 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:13:49 konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has joined #lisp 03:22:06 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:24:19 BrianRice` 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06:17:55 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 06:28:28 -!- spinlock [~spinlock@208.80.69.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:30:03 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:30:14 good morning! 06:30:22 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:42 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:30:43 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 06:31:12 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:37:27 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:37:42 -!- Krystof [~csr21@92.24.94.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:37:43 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39:34 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:39:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:42:14 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-5-30.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 06:43:48 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-83-184.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:44:48 good morning 06:46:53 hello mvilleneuve 06:49:14 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:49:33 Krystof [~csr21@92.24.94.2] has joined #lisp 06:57:04 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:58:02 fusss [~fusss@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:18 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:00:47 Hi, I am trying to integrate another object system with CLOS. The other object system (java) has its own hierarchy. I want to implement specialized methods based on that custom class tree. I don't care much for subclass/subtype specialization, just EQL specialization on a specific class name. Meaning, '(obj (eql "java.lang.Object")) need not handle '(obj (eql "java.util.Date")) even though Date is a subclass of Object. How should I go about thi 07:00:47 fusss, memo from luis: CFFI works in ABCL using JNI and libffi, the point is to get at C libs, not Java, so it's different from jffi. 07:02:07 leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:01 fusss: Do you mean that you already have code in Java, or do you mean that you are going to write a parallel class hierarchy in Lisp? 07:04:14 beach: at this point, I am not at trying to subclass java classes in Lisp (though I *could*): all I want is some sane generic dispatch for methods. 07:04:25 theBaba [~user@99-58-60-141.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:40 fusss: That wasn't my question though. 07:04:46 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:04:46 *fusss* abcl is awesome, but jfli makes LW a CLish clozure at native speed 07:04:56 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 07:05:08 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255273.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:05:48 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:05:49 fusss: But I can see from a little more context that I don't know the answer to your question. 07:06:08 beach: there is no java code involved; it's all lisp code instantiating java classes and calling methods on them. Sorry if I don't understand. I wouldn't mind doing a parallel class heirarchy, just to get rid of java at once. 07:06:40 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:43 brandlee [~antiwiene@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 07:07:47 beach: assume you have # and # both of them are represented by one Lisp type, JavaObject, but in java, they're actually two different classes. There could also be #, this too is a different clsas. 07:08:02 freiksenet [~freiksene@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 07:08:09 I want to write Lisp methods that specialize on the subtype .. for example 07:09:10 (defmethod print-object ((obj (eql(java-class-name "java.util.Date")))) .. ) see, EQL just specializes on an immediate value, but I want to compute that value at run time 07:09:46 fusss: have you tried modifying GF invocation protocol? 07:10:31 I *could* wrap print-object I guess 07:10:53 i.e. create a new metaclass for java objects, and modify its invocation protocol to include apropriate method resolution 07:11:04 p_l: that's one idea that I am investing. I didn't wanna jump to it and thought it might be better to fish for alternative ideas here. 07:11:19 new metaclass sounds very good indeed 07:11:31 fusss: well, that's the canonical use of MOP, it seems (at least looking at AMOP) 07:11:55 I don't have my AMOP here, so I am all over chapter 5-6 that are free online 07:13:11 fusss: AMOP uses integration of different object system as an example of when and how to modify inheritance rules 07:13:57 minion: memo for luis: I will need to discuss the libffi dependency with fellow ABCLers. I don't think I want to touch JNI or C FFI at all; better wrap CFFI-using libs with custom calls to native java libraries. usocket, for example, uses java.net.* 07:13:57 Remembered. I'll tell luis when he/she/it next speaks. 07:14:54 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:54 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 07:14:54 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 07:15:00 brb 07:15:43 hey 07:16:08 any other free options to make dll from my lisp except ECL?! 07:16:32 yakov: nope. 07:16:44 at least not for Common Lisp 07:18:19 -!- jmbr_ [~jmbr@111.33.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:18:32 p_l, you there's scheme alternatives? or some other kinds of Lisp? 07:18:33 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 07:19:29 yakov: I know that at least Chicken Scheme supports embedding into DLL, I think Guile did as well. No idea about others 07:19:40 yakov: do you wanna try the JVM? you can deliver one-click Lisp installers over the web. 07:20:30 yakov: it would also be possible to shoehorn ccl or sbcl into a dll, but that'd be more involved (i.e. you'd have to address all sorts of low-level issues to make that work). 07:20:55 fusss, well i would say no regarding java (i know about clojure existance). 07:21:13 yeah, for sure I can hack sbcl or ccl.. but the problem i have no time at the moment. 07:21:24 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-155-118.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:24 I want to find simple solid solution. 07:21:31 ECL is just like that. 07:21:32 yakov: buy a lispworks license, done. 07:21:38 you have no time to hack but you're inquiring about scheme possibilities? :-P 07:21:41 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:21:42 H4ns, already own ACL :-P 07:21:44 -!- codemonkeyx [~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:21:58 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:21:58 and ACL doesn't allow you to deliver binaries? 07:22:00 yakov: poor lad, spent a lot of money, now can't deploy without spending more. 07:22:00 though student version ;-) 07:22:27 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:31 yakov: but really, lispworks supports building dlls out of the box and you'll even get support if you need it. 07:22:32 well, H4ns i was investigating their VARs policy and I think i will buy LW next time i.e. pro version. 07:22:33 *p_l* would buy LW if he had to deploy :D 07:22:33 H4ns: excellent article on web server availability btw 07:22:48 H4ns, and there's no "runtime-y" license etc?! 07:22:54 yakov: no way 07:23:05 fusss: talking about the varnish thing? i'd need to re-write that given today's varnish. 07:23:13 yakov: lw is royalty free 07:23:23 H4ns: what about today's varnish? 07:23:40 yakov: LW professional/enterprise includes deployment license 07:23:46 *fusss* would know about this already if H4ns tweeted often, and not in German ;-) 07:23:48 fusss: i'd need to look at it. when i wrote the article, varnish was pretty much in its infancy. 07:23:53 heh, i'll make a christmas gift to my self ;-) though LW costs alot of money. :-( 07:24:04 yeah 07:24:26 and unfortunately, even getting £12/hour doesn't mean I'll get enough money to pay for it soon >_< 07:24:56 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:25:36 yakov: if you're not doing anything too complicated, Corman Lisp can do DLLs. 07:25:42 but it's not very modern 07:25:50 yeah shitload of money 1200 for pro... 07:26:05 fusss, yes, i checked it this night. 07:26:13 dont want to spend $300 either. 07:26:24 $125 if you're a student 07:26:24 better to save $300 for LW purchase in future ;-0 07:26:26 ;-0 07:26:30 damn. 07:26:40 trial version is not crippled either ;-) 07:26:59 well, it will show dialog box to my user telling that its an evaluation ;-) 07:27:02 from DLL even. 07:27:29 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-64-22.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:28:03 I just don't get the rush. if you had time to develop the software, you should have thought out the delivery strategy. Not coded in the repl and then wondered how to deploy it. 07:29:25 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:29:41 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:30:16 fusss: why think before you need to think? 07:30:21 fusss, its "fuck up" mode, 07:30:26 i mean there was no time. 07:31:12 and to use lisp is my fresh idea ;-) you know. 07:31:22 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-126-250.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:31:22 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:31:25 i want to escape C programming at all costs. 07:31:30 ooh, right, try new language on client's time and dime 07:32:27 yakov: try ECL again and reach out to the mailing list if you have to 07:32:37 yeah! 07:32:58 good luck! 07:33:21 BTW ECL open tremendous perspectives with its ability to genereate C. 07:33:23 fusss, thx! 07:33:31 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 07:33:37 np 07:33:56 *fusss* went to abcl and the jvm. never gonna touch C and unix again 07:34:12 brb 07:37:59 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:41:30 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41:54 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:46:14 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:48:07 brandlee_ [~antiwiene@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 07:49:54 splittist [~dmurray@31-13.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:49:57 morning 07:50:47 -!- brandlee [~antiwiene@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:50:47 -!- brandlee_ is now known as brandlee 07:54:20 -!- konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:57:10 darkmag [~vfalico@ip-94-112-36-51.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 07:59:49 -!- darkmag [~vfalico@ip-94-112-36-51.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 07:59:54 codemonkeyx [~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:10 darkmag [~vfalico@ip-94-112-36-51.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 08:02:58 relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 08:03:18 hey splittist 08:03:29 'sup fusss? 08:03:52 another day another jar; abcling .. 08:04:19 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:08:33 fusss: what's new and exciting in abcl-land? 08:09:33 hey splittist 08:10:07 beach: howdy. How is autumn treating you so far? 08:10:28 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 08:10:34 splittist: So far so good. The weather has been nice, but the days are definitely getting shorter. You? 08:12:33 pretty similarly. I'm excited to be doing little bits of lisp. I'm now wondering if I should convert my templates to @scribble{} syntax or play with funcallable-instancifying them first. 08:13:21 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:13:37 (I realise this means nothing to anyone but myself (: ) 08:14:10 splittist: I was just going to ask :) 08:17:39 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 08:19:49 splittist: abcl has the unadvertised goodness of being a CL native to the java platform 08:19:56 xan_ [~xan@46.204.192.61.tokyo.bflets.alpha-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:20:04 most effort is involved in actually finding people's little snippets and contributions 08:20:42 I found jfli-abcl.lisp; a port of Rich Hickey's CL<->Java integration for LW. that effectively makes the whole of Java a local site-system repository 08:20:59 fusss: snippets and contributions about using the java bits? I'm using abcl now (as we type), but just as a CL. 08:20:59 CL-USER> (list-all-packages) 08:21:00 (# # # # ..) 08:21:02 oh! 08:21:18 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:21:56 dude, you can create java objects at the repl 08:22:20 *stassats* doesn't get excited about that prospect 08:22:21 fusss: I know. But I'm not sure what I'd do with them... 08:22:25 (jnew java.util.Date) or (new date.) if you imported 08:22:39 (date.tostring *) => "Tuesday bala bla " 08:23:04 but today is Thursday! 08:23:29 I don't want to live in a world that has a Thursday 08:23:34 not in bala bla, though. 08:24:00 ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has joined #lisp 08:24:12 -!- theBaba [~user@99-58-60-141.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 08:24:14 well, if you're bored, I can give a *small* data warehousing project to play with :-) 08:24:18 thom_ [~thom@c-24-19-97-223.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:31 fiveop [~fiveop@p5B286F38.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:34 port the whole of Apache Axis2 to Lisp, basic bindings and lispification 08:25:04 new verb: funcallable-instancifying 08:25:35 niiiiiice 08:25:36 fusss: I'd definitely enjoy it being completely CL-based :P 08:26:03 p_l: get up to speed with ABCL then; I will still be here 08:26:45 Krystof: is that a dig on java's method factories? (assuming you're not doing something better than java ;-) 08:27:08 it's the closes thing to Lisp in mainstream, imo, specially CL. GSL was right. 08:27:15 funcallable-instances are from MOP 08:27:44 fusss: I find my experiences with .NET to have been much more pleasurable, even with .NET 2.0 08:27:59 *p_l* recalls that he has to rewrite RDNZL -_-; 08:28:07 afk, home -> work 08:28:08 *stassats* thinks that fusss overdrank the java kool aid 08:28:22 sepp2k [~sexy@p548CCA09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:43 brandlee_ [~antiwiene@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 08:28:43 Isn't there an abcl for .net thingy somewhere? 08:29:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/114798 08:29:32 TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-206-28-19.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:29:33 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:30:25 -!- brandlee [~antiwiene@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:30:25 -!- brandlee_ is now known as brandlee 08:30:48 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has left #lisp 08:33:15 fusss: OK. Does that mean a Swing backend to McClim (or CLIM3 if beach has a free afternoon...) is feasible? 08:33:42 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 08:35:01 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A8D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:35:14 splittist: I literally discovered jfli 40 minutes ago. will have to stress test it further. 08:35:27 my interests were porting ABCL to Android, but screw that 08:35:40 morning lispers 08:35:46 hey kiuma 08:36:14 kiuma: you too were a java guy; what do you think of this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/114798 08:36:14 Heh - 'teh shiny' driven developement (: 08:36:50 sunwukong [~vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:36:51 splittist: i was doing android/lisp for fun and java for work. with jfli, i get to enjoy work. 08:37:14 Krystof: that's not a verb, that's a gerund 08:37:55 fusss: and in this world we can't ask for more. I look forward to following your progress! 08:37:57 Krystof: 'to funcallable-instancify' would be the verb (that is to say, the normal form) 08:40:17 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:40:19 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-64-22.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:41:10 fusss, 1 sec: I read 08:41:28 fusss, I'm still a java guy (I have to eat :) ) 08:41:47 i thought java was for drinking 08:42:09 ... coffee? 08:42:45 fusss, ??? 08:43:01 one thing doesn't convince me 08:43:10 (new date.) 08:43:50 tfb [~tfb@92.40.111.103.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:44:34 kiuma: hey, sorry, this IRC client doesn't "ding" when you're called 08:44:35 how would you make a diff between java "public class foo ..." (yes you shouldn't, but you can) and "public class Foo ..." 08:44:49 mine too :) 08:45:03 (date.tostring *) 08:45:18 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 08:45:21 this would not work and it's anti lisp 08:45:26 kiuma: you don't have to use the package; you can refer to it by its fully qualified, but ugly, name 08:45:52 Yuuhi [benni@p54839DBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:14 (new |java.util|:DATE.) 08:46:26 what's the difference between java tostring and java toString ? 08:46:59 I suggest une thing: 08:47:20 kiuma: it's not my library. Rich Hickey wrote it before he went to write clojure. 08:47:33 ah :) 08:47:47 I fully agree with his taste, too 08:47:48 -!- Thorn [~Thorn@unaffiliated/thorn] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:48:05 my own JFFI library uses (jnew java/util/Date), which is gross 08:48:11 well IMHO (and I'm nobody) it does not fit well for java and for CL 08:48:40 infact if i recall clojure distinguishes between capitalised letters 08:48:53 you're not gonna be calling java methods frequently. only in wrappers. so your lower level stubs can afford to be ugly, imo. 08:49:05 clojure is case preserving 08:49:23 in your lib you could do the parenscript trick for capitalization 08:50:16 -!- guther [~guther@92-55-242-227.net.pbthawe.eu] has quit [K-Lined] 08:51:57 for how odd could look, it might be java.util.-date 08:52:13 for how odd could look, it might be java.util.-gregorian-calendar 08:52:28 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-64-22.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:52:36 fuss: and 08:53:05 for example (to-string (my-calendar-instance)) 08:53:52 hmmm 08:54:35 just like parenscript :) 08:54:50 to be honest, at the moment i just wanna go through the Apache libraries like a kid in a candy store, and use all the XML, middle-ware, messaging, and multimedia extensions i never had a chance to use. I will build a 3D enterprise resource planner. 08:55:55 almost kidding there 08:57:05 timor [~timor@port-92-195-82-26.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:58:38 Surely the essence of a planner is to be 4D... 09:01:31 if you plan to write anything for the enterprise, you have to take tachyons and time loops into account. 09:03:29 I still struggle with building from source, without ant/maven, but if there are binary jars for tachyons .. 09:04:36 ITYM "you will be having struggled" 09:05:09 thank you Excellent Sir 09:05:38 (; 09:06:16 java no maven = no business 09:06:58 i just reminded myself of an immigrant intern kid who didn't know the difference between "mister" and "master". He made me feel *important*. 09:07:19 and anyway, java is becoming a bastard language. Or better it's becoming what was planned for Parrot 09:08:06 ou could have java running on it's own, and communicate to it via json rpc 09:08:24 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:24 so java could run let's say on tomcat or jboss 09:08:55 isn't java turning into nothing-to-be-bothered-about (thanks to Oracle)? 09:09:24 brandlee_ [~antiwiene@84.114.246.246] has joined #lisp 09:10:13 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7569c3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:18 maus [~maus@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:25 jdz, it seems reading TSS that the big O is bringing more damage then otherù 09:10:30 *other 09:10:33 Good morning! 09:10:43 hello maus 09:10:54 Heloo kiuma :) 09:11:32 -!- brandlee [~antiwiene@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:11:32 -!- brandlee_ is now known as brandlee 09:12:43 kiuma: ok, TSS is not Toxic Shock Syndrome in this context, is it? 09:14:27 [emacs/slime] What do people do to deal with the M-, binding for tags-loop-continue being clobbered in slime buffers? 09:15:13 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:15:24 i personally don't use tags-loop-continue, especially in slime buffers 09:15:28 H4ns` [~user@p579F89B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:09 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:18:09 afternoon 09:18:23 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-8-22.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:07 -!- H4ns [~user@p579F8A29.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:20:17 jdz: fair enough. What should I be using to search [and replace] through a group of files/buffers? 09:21:51 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 09:21:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 09:21:52 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:22:06 slime-next-location? 09:22:17 if you used M-. to locate the definition 09:24:47 splittist: slime-query-replace-system 09:25:16 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.78.167.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:55 tcr: great! 09:29:23 It's in the slime-asdf contrib in case you're not already using that 09:29:55 jdz: theserverside.com 09:30:20 for example http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=60965 09:31:28 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 09:31:47 pulling quotes out of context is always fun 09:34:34 -!- antifuchs [~foobar@2001:858:745:a0e4:200:1aff:fe19:d355] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 09:35:13 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:36:45 splittist: In case you find stuff missing, there's a launchpad tracker nowadays for slime, too 09:37:25 tcr: thanks. ABCL doesn't seem to be liking this, for some reason. (I've probably screwed up the .asd system, though...) 09:38:15 splittist: I never tried that function with asdf2 09:39:49 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:42:01 hello Xach 09:42:42 hello kiuma 09:43:50 -!- darkmag [~vfalico@ip-94-112-36-51.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:43:55 I couldn't be at ILC 2010, for two reasons one is that I still have no the e-passport, and the other I'd be killed by my actual customer :( 09:44:38 the first os course is a minor issue :) 09:44:43 *of 09:45:15 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:45:22 antifuchs [~foobar@2001:858:745:a0e4:200:1aff:fe19:d355] has joined #lisp 09:45:58 kiuma: just don't come back from Nevada 09:47:00 drag0nh3art [devil@14.195.4.84] has joined #lisp 09:49:31 alright, stuff should be working again. 09:50:14 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-64-22.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:52:31 antifuchs: nope, sorry. (Oh - you didn't mean all stuff in the universe?) 09:52:43 not all the stuff in the universe (: 09:52:48 minion: forget my memos 09:52:48 OK, I threw it out. 09:54:08 Wasn't there something for Slime that showed which forms we're changed but not evaluated yet in the connected Lisp? 09:54:18 "were", argh 09:54:25 was 09:54:29 stassats, isn't it a bit cold in this period ? 09:54:49 aerique: there is 09:55:00 aerique: it's called highlight-edits 09:55:14 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:55:20 thanks, i'll go look for it. old age is catching up on me 09:55:44 aerique: I'd rather have something like a compilation ring where you can push "C-c C-c" to and then commit all such compilations 09:55:50 p_l|work [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:56:12 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:59:41 tcr: OK. If you've C-c C-c'ed your defsystem, there is no asdf:system-definition-pathanme, so when swank:asdf-system-files tries to #'namestring it (it having been prepended to the list of asdf-module-files) . If this makes sense I'll launchpad it. 10:01:10 -!- drag0nh3art [devil@14.195.4.84] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:01:17 That's you doing it wrong, methinks. You have C-c C-l (just load) .asd files 10:01:52 tcr: yes, like I said above, I'd screwed up my .asd (: 10:05:06 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:57 -!- sunwukong [~vukung@business-80-99-161-225.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: bye] 10:06:17 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:07:50 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:52 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 10:08:08 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:08:40 -!- adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-8-22.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 10:09:43 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:11:00 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-138-79.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 10:12:43 aerique: hi! 10:13:15 Xach: hi :) 10:13:38 our honor is slipping down to 400th place :( 10:13:39 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:59 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:14:01 Xach: better get coding then! 10:14:20 Xach: and mega1 hasn't started yet bu the looks of it 10:14:40 ah 10:14:50 i'm working on our honor on a different front, sorry :) 10:14:51 true, I'm buried under work 10:15:23 but it's a long one 10:15:36 *p_l|work* starts using SBCL-built package management program 10:15:42 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 10:15:42 If only there was some sort of AI robot that could unbury people... 10:15:45 (for distro packages) 10:15:53 Xach: i have a better bot already but i'm reworking some lower level code before continuing with it 10:16:23 *p_l|work* is going to start working on AI challenge as soon as he unburies himself from badly written PHP/JS 10:16:24 -!- frodef [~frode@shevek.netfonds.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:16:42 *splittist* realises he has forgotten to write the functions he has just refactored his system to call 10:17:09 *mega1* dislikes addressing other people directly too 10:17:17 mega1: i have to remind myself we have until the 27th of nov, i'm still conditioned from the month long previous challenge 10:17:22 aaaaah 10:18:41 aerique: yes, but it's a real motivation killer to start late and languish in the middle of the pack 10:19:01 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:20:55 *relcomp* wonders how splittist does refactoring... there should be a tool... 10:20:58 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:21:32 73.75 MB <---- size of rather simple program -_-; At least Arch's build system nicely built the binary 10:21:35 -!- MaxMuen [maxmuen@kudu.in-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:21:50 MaxMuen [maxmuen@kudu.in-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:52 import, instantiate, subclass, invoke methods, specialize methods on class, specialize methods on instance, integrate package systems, implement interfaces, .. 10:22:34 i think those are the most important metrics of two languages being "integrated", amiright? 10:23:27 -!- MaxMuen [maxmuen@kudu.in-berlin.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:23:42 Clojure managed to do that by avoiding classes altogether; they treat java classes like a pseudo prototype system. instantiate and pass around like a joint 10:24:06 relcomp: it was a fairly simple transformation, so I used tags-query-replace-regexp from dired (Q) a couple of times. I'm not sure a 'tool' would have made this any easier, but I do dream of some simple s-exp matching/xforming notation. 10:26:12 add to that make immediate values for non-object primitives, and take care of coercion/boxing/unboxing 10:26:49 MaxMuen [maxmuen@kudu.in-berlin.de] has joined #lisp 10:26:50 and all of the above was meant for #abcl, me stupid git 10:27:22 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zwnrdlezcdxwsiju] has joined #lisp 10:28:57 fusss: does salza2 work without patching on abcl? 10:29:12 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 10:29:51 s3v3n [~s3v3n@14.195.81.212] has joined #lisp 10:30:09 -!- s3v3n [~s3v3n@14.195.81.212] has quit [Client Quit] 10:30:47 splittist: Well, I am dreaming of a refactoring tool for Lisp I got used to in my Java/eclipse times. 10:30:51 yes Xach 10:30:53 it's clean stuff 10:31:00 i just used it yesterday 10:31:48 good to hear. would be nice if salza could be buried. 10:31:54 i think only zip uses it now. 10:32:03 *fusss* was surprised the compressor argument is a 'symbol, and not something an object, a la ironclad's API 10:32:53 I can overhaul cl-pdf over the next few hours, since I actually need it for work; just wasn't sure if the author is MIA or actively working on it. 10:32:57 let me shoot him an email .. 10:33:07 fusss: for what function? compress-data? 10:33:48 Xach: just a simple wire-protocol between lisps. I was (send (compress (base64-encode (cl-store ...)))) 10:33:57 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 10:34:15 cl-store is compact, but i threw in the complexity for good measure 10:34:32 that doesn't make a lick of sense 10:35:14 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:35:20 i know 10:35:41 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:35:45 passing lisp blobs between lisps across the network 10:35:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:36:09 everyone has to invent their own ASN.1 10:36:49 do you really base64 encode the binary cl-store data, then compress it back to a binary form before sending? 10:36:57 or was that just off the top of your head? 10:37:53 I wanna say off the top of my head, but there is an emacs buffer nodding in disagreement 10:38:17 ok, where was I .. cl-pdf .. 10:38:22 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-188-218.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:24 take out the base64 step to save 25% 10:38:46 aaaite 10:38:59 15 minutes could save you 15% or more 10:39:12 I am in good hands 10:42:28 *kiuma* hates base64 for bin data transmissions 10:44:45 Xach: cl-pdf bundles salza. Do you mind if I remove it altogether and make salza2 a dependency? 10:45:12 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:45:18 fusss: that's a question for marc, not me 10:45:31 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:45:50 just shot him an email asking for permission. will upgrade in place until I get a nod. 10:52:33 homie [91fd03c7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.199] has joined #lisp 10:53:23 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:55:03 urandom__ [~user@p548A6178.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:25 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:57:24 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:57:43 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:59:16 -!- homie [91fd03c7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:01:09 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 11:01:29 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:01:42 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02:11 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:02:32 homie [91fd03c7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.199] has joined #lisp 11:04:19 fusss1 [~fusss@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:04:42 *attila_lendvai* had a lot of headache with cl-pdf, including the salza boundling 11:05:33 -!- brandlee [~antiwiene@84.114.246.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:05:33 salza2 ? 11:06:04 fusss2 [~fusss@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:10 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06:31 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:07:06 -!- fusss [~fusss@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:07:27 fusss [~fusss@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:07:42 Xach: ok, basic salza2 is in place. we just don't use the zlib-compressor callback .. just compress-data 11:08:04 <_8david> millions of cl-pdf users will rejoice when the old salza bundling stops! 11:08:12 So, the standard doesn't have the equivalent of macroexpand for type specifiers, right? 11:09:04 And this means that there is a bunch of sequence functions that can't be written portably, unless of course one also implements type expanders. 11:09:11 -!- fusss1 [~fusss@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:10:08 -!- fusss2 [~fusss@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:10:31 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:11:47 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:12:40 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:14:23 Now, can the entire type-manipulation mechanism be implemented portably? 11:14:51 -!- logia_th [~nmo@81.37.12.41] has quit [Quit: return 0;] 11:15:38 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 11:19:05 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:19:43 baker has the goods on implementing subtypep if you have typep, iirc 11:19:51 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:20:21 but type-expanding requires either implementing your own deftype or talking to the host 11:20:50 beach: for SICL? 11:21:06 beach: if this is for SICL, feel free to improve as you wish 11:21:20 what do you actually need type-expanding for? isn't the host subtypep enough? 11:21:32 i have a good feeling CL can become a base for CL-NG (aka SICL) 11:23:23 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:24:03 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:24:21 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:25:32 there are more outstanding public patches for cl-pdf than Diaspora 11:25:44 outstanding == yet to be applied 11:25:53 navigator [~navigator@p54896FA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:27:09 nikodemus: Thanks for the hint on baker. And, yes, I have come to the conclusion that it requires talking to the host. 11:27:23 p_l|work: yes, it is. 11:27:37 fusss: Meaning "a tremendous lot"? 11:27:44 nikodemus: (make-sequence '(bla t) ...) 11:28:02 nikodemus: Perhaps I am missing something. 11:28:19 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:33 Odin-: yep 11:28:41 beach: I'd say "reimplement" :) 11:28:42 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:29:07 p_l|work: Still, it won't work as a drop-in replacement then. 11:29:23 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has joined #lisp 11:29:33 -!- splittist [~dmurray@31-13.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:13 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:32:00 beach: oh, right. MAKE-SEQUENCE is... fun 11:32:02 ivan4th [~ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 11:32:14 Odin-: or maybe the SVN repo is well hidden 11:32:47 nikodemus: map as well and a host of others. 11:33:09 -!- relcomp [~chatzilla@pc92-e03-3.igf.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has left #lisp 11:33:10 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:33:56 is there a "make clean" for ASDF? 11:34:25 like what ? 11:35:04 beach: don't the others pretty much devolve back into MAKE-SEQUENCE? 11:35:06 fusss: nope 11:35:25 nikodemus: That might be true. 11:35:34 fusss: at least not that I know... nobody quite knows what operation should be cleaned for. 11:35:55 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:36:08 rm -rf *.fasl|*.ofasl|*.cls|*.wx32cl|*.x86f, etc. 11:37:01 every operation can have output files, and as nobody has solved the general case, the particular case that would work for lots of people remains unimplemented 11:37:32 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dqzkrkgyvgqjixgs] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:38:04 nikodemus: A problem, though, with doing it that way, is that if are using (say) merge on two lists, and want to create a list using make-sequence, then you have to know the length of the lists to merge :( 11:38:24 <_8david> (asdf:clean-out-the-entire-centralized-directory-thing) would be a blessing already 11:39:07 For clean, I use variations of this: http://paste.lisp.org/+2GL0 11:39:22 nikodemus: Ah, but I can portably check whether the type given to map is a subtype of list. 11:42:07 hohoho [~hohoho@bm210-148-98-42.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:45:12 oh, lisppaste bot is not here? 11:45:41 an asdf:clean-for-operation that uses the system's output files for an operation should be doable 11:45:55 Changed slime-highlight-edits to mark the whole toplevel form and I'm liking it. Except I should add that it also marks form deletions instead of just added text. 11:46:45 jdz: it is here, silenced 11:47:17 stassats: why is it silenced? 11:47:25 nikodemus: But I am stuck for map anyway. I can't see how to do (map 'bla #'1+ '(1 2 3)) portably without knowing how to make a bla of length 3. 11:48:08 jdz: there is spam once through it 11:49:02 (make-sequence 'bla 3)? 11:49:09 s/is/was/ 11:49:20 beach: 'bla must be a sequence type specifier, so ... what nikodemus says (: 11:49:52 Hmm, OK. 11:50:38 And if 'bla expands to (vector * 4) I just count on make-sequence to generate the error. 11:51:03 What flavor (no pun intended) of CL does Genera use? CLtL1? 11:51:26 tens of them 11:52:04 future-common-lisp (: 11:52:56 beach: i think both (map '(vector * 4) #'identity (list 1 2 3 4)) and (make-sequence '(vector * 4) 4) are expected to work 11:52:56 antifuchs: okay good. ;) 11:53:42 nikodemus: Yes, I think this might be possible. 11:53:44 both APIs are a tad insane. cool, but insane 11:54:01 nikodemus, antifuchs: thanks for talking over this with me. 11:54:19 beach: Are you working on SICL 11:54:21 ? 11:54:25 Quadrescence: yes. 11:54:50 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p54839DBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:55:49 beach: Do you have any good literature on Common Lisp types (including the construction of new types)? 11:56:10 Quadrescence: Other than the CLHS, no. 11:56:37 Quadrescence: and it is a bit too dense for me, so I would have liked to have some more information. 11:57:16 brandlee [~antiwiene@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:57:34 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:58:39 for a set of mutually exclusive options; I think pushing one option into *features* should be matched with the removal of the others .. if present. just makes sense. 11:59:44 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:59 Xach: SVN cl-pdf *has* Salza2 support. old salza is kept for backward compat, methinks 12:05:14 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-82-26.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:14 -!- brandlee [~antiwiene@chello062178064156.22.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: brandlee] 12:07:31 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:08:34 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:13:10 fusss: ok 12:14:52 and fwiw, only the salza* backends work on ABCL :-/ 12:17:04 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:12 LiamH [~healy@129-2-130-108.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 12:25:53 jmbr [~jmbr@mac512.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 12:29:52 -!- pok [pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:08 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@mac512.mat.ucm.es] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31:04 hmmm, could tcr who-calls improvements for slime used for for dead-code elimination? or build a tool that does that? 12:31:41 -!- homie [91fd03c7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:31:57 there can be false-positives 12:32:00 i know it's difficult to determine what might be called by what and where, given macros and compile-time transformations .. but there are some major whoopsies that could be caught by a SSC 12:34:18 homie [91fd03c7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.199] has joined #lisp 12:34:24 timor [~timor@port-92-195-82-26.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:34:36 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zwnrdlezcdxwsiju] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:36:11 p 12:36:29 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 12:38:10 splittist [~dmurray@31-13.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 12:38:15 pok [pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 12:40:19 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:40:25 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:32 fusss: you realize slime doesn't do who-calls, but rather queries the implementation? 12:45:08 also, nitpick: dead code elimination doens't mean what you think. you're asking about unreachable code elimination :) 12:45:10 fusss: SSC? static <> <>? 12:45:49 (let ((x 42) (y 13)) (setf y x) (setf x nil) y) ; (SETF X NIL) is dead but reachable 12:46:17 SSC == Sufficiently Smart Compiler 12:46:43 nikodemus: does that return t or nil? 12:46:44 i kid 12:47:14 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 12:48:37 nikodemus: right on all counts! 12:49:54 *Xach* eyes splittist 12:51:00 Umm - what did I do now? 13:00:33 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:02:47 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.0.194.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:03:24 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:04:35 *Xach* wonders who is going to the shibuya lisp hackathon - http://atnd.org/events/7595 13:05:46 in 20 years maybe, when i'm hacking japanese too 13:05:47 lol 13:09:07 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:24 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-92-9-129.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 13:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:48 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 13:10:50 salva_ [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:53 Xach: are you living in japan? 13:12:32 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:59 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-155-118.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:13:00 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 13:13:37 daniel: I am not 13:13:48 daniel: no, Xach like most of us, lives in Glenn Beckistan 13:14:10 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:14:10 -!- salva_ is now known as salva 13:14:26 Xach: going back to the east coast on Saturday. Wooo intelligent conversation IRL! 13:14:27 i wonder if even half the people here are merkins, actually 13:14:41 i would guess at 30-40% 13:15:11 there would be more, if they weren't being kick-banned 13:17:02 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:17:48 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:17:55 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:18:35 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-79.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 13:19:22 good day everyone 13:20:09 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-123-92.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:20:33 fusss: where do you live that you can't find intelligent conversation? 13:23:19 g'day Blkt 13:23:25 -!- LiamH [~healy@129-2-130-108.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:23:46 hello 13:24:23 sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has joined #lisp 13:25:20 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-7-119.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:27:08 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:31 z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 13:28:31 -!- z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [Changing host] 13:28:31 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 13:31:38 -!- homie [91fd03c7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.199] has quit [] 13:34:37 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@bm210-148-98-42.bmobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:52 Adamant: just outside of a farming town, midwest of the U.S. my daily chit-chat oscillates between football and beer 13:36:44 fusss: if it's in Kansas, there are places around the college towns you may enjoy. 13:36:49 similar for other states. 13:37:48 davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:53 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:39:48 Adamant: the only college in town is a 2-year nursing school, specializing in dialysis and elderly care. I have already covered my daily conversations revolving around "piss", above. 13:40:19 urandom_ [~user@p548A5092.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:02 huh. can't help you, then, unless you get interested in EE or MechE. 13:41:20 hypercube31 [~hypercube@66.90.18.146] has joined #lisp 13:42:18 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A6178.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:46:08 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:50:26 -!- splittist [~dmurray@31-13.62-81.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:53:15 splittist [~dmurray@34-58.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:55:20 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-39-54.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:55:48 -!- p_l|work [~pl@hgd210.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:55:49 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:13 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-93-210.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:00:50 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.169] has joined #lisp 14:02:18 jajcloz [~jaj@2002:4855:eb9a:0:219:e3ff:fe02:96b8] has joined #lisp 14:02:50 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-79.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:06:07 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:47 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-225.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:50 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-225.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:08:17 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-79.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 14:09:12 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:25 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-134-127.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:45 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:41 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:21:18 jeyr [~jeyr@117.199.13.84] has joined #lisp 14:21:53 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:38 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:23:21 -!- jeyr [~jeyr@117.199.13.84] has quit [Quit: jeyr] 14:24:06 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:24:31 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:26:30 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@164.164.250.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:27 milanj [~milanj_@212-200-217-108.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:31:03 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:35:42 -!- slyrus_ [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:39:29 Ogedei [~user@p579F6D0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:10 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7569c3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:46 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:28 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:42:19 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:54 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:20 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:45:47 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-138-79.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:47:04 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-142-89-25.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:47:28 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:48:09 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.254.62] has joined #lisp 14:52:16 p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 14:53:02 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:04 oh my, all the cl html references could use a good sprinkling of better html markup. 14:55:41 identifying glossary entries as elements inside

isn't exactly fun /-: 14:55:50 what! 14:55:58 it's two lines of closure-html trickery 14:56:14 (not really) 14:56:32 yeah, no... closure-html and cxml-stp help 14:56:45 but still, it's pretty bad.

would be a far better match. 14:56:48 antifuchs: i scraped the clhs for l1sp.org glossary stuff 14:56:54 Xach: ooh (: 14:56:56 *Xach* has all the data 14:57:15 I'm interested in which dictionaries / definitions link to what 14:57:31 http://xach.com/tmp/gloss.txt 14:57:33 ah 14:57:44 still, that's cool 14:57:46 I'll use that (: 14:57:47 thanks (: 14:58:48 zaidaus [~zaidaus@unaffiliated/zaidaus] has joined #lisp 14:59:23 one would be tempted to use dpans2texi to get nicer html (: 14:59:47 i heard some vendors have their own custom clhs 14:59:47 but that is emacs lisp... and it's slightly icky and special-cased. 14:59:59 yeah, franz does. markup there is even worse (-: 15:00:11 tables. tables everywhere. 15:01:24 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.135.206.66] has joined #lisp 15:01:39 *antifuchs* rubs eyes 15:02:24 I think I just saw a discussion on asdf-devel about whether to use cpp as a preprocessor for lisp (: 15:03:49 ... 15:03:53 WTF? 15:04:37 yeah, I was a tiny bit scared 15:04:49 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-79.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:04:52 ... It makes perfect sense, of course, as cpp is a tokenized preprocessor, and lisp uses the same set of tokens... 15:05:36 I wonder if there is a non-hacky way to make an image with pre-loaded asdf systems? I.e. in a way so that it won't break when the image is moved to a different machine without any source for those systems, and asked to load some more. 15:06:53 angavrilov: just load them and dump image, and probably avoid loading the same system again? 15:07:17 angavrilov: as long as you don't have foreign libs it should be pretty simple 15:07:35 *nikodemus* is scared about asdf's future 15:07:56 it's an essential part of landscape 15:08:05 ... you mean, that it might still have one? 15:08:17 yeah... 15:08:26 hahaha 15:08:50 When I tried this a year ago, once you asked it to load something depending on the preloaded stuff, it attempted to check if the sources on the disk changed and broke. 15:08:58 backwards compatibility is important. if people want to make something interesting and different and good, that's fine -- but i'm not sure evolving asdf is the right choise 15:09:20 I had to hack it by defining null methods for all preloaded systems on traverse, or something. 15:09:30 angavrilov: ah, right. loading new stuff is tricky 15:12:08 I used to be worried about asdf, and about migrating to new systems, but I am not worried any more. 15:12:29 why not ? 15:12:52 Quicklisp makes it easy to get something that works without much effort. 15:14:12 gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has joined #lisp 15:14:26 demism [~demism@pool-71-161-40-44.clppva.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:42 -!- gz_ [~gz@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21e:52ff:fe76:8913] has left #lisp 15:15:42 splittist_ [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:15:47 -!- splittist_ [~splittist@30-245.62-188.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:30 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:19:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:20:17 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:20:50 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:23:20 hi, a question, in weak hash tables, both key as value are weak pointers? 15:23:32 that's how you request 15:24:23 I mean, if I create a hash table with :key weakness, entries whose key object died can be removed, however 15:24:32 the reference of 'value' of the hash table counts? or my value object can die if it is not referenced out of the hash table? 15:26:37 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 15:27:32 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 15:29:16 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:31 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.169] has joined #lisp 15:31:41 UnwashedMeme [~nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:32:20 swank-presentation-streams & SBCL: what do I need to do to make this work? 15:32:20 danlentz [~user@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:33 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:32:37 patience 15:32:54 see what's not working and fix it 15:33:01 i've been trying 15:33:15 there are no errors or anything, i must just be missing some condition 15:33:21 but not sure what that is 15:33:33 has anyone else known this to work? 15:33:52 i have not known it not to work 15:34:02 :-) 15:34:31 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:34:38 i know how bad presentations are so i'm wouldn't be surprised if it's not working 15:35:16 aside from the presentation-streams which appear to try to automatically try to convert unreadable objects to presentations, is there a way to just say print-this-object-as-presentation 15:35:56 Yes, ~/swank:p/, look at my 2008 slime presentation 15:37:06 would that be this one: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf ? 15:37:15 Yeah 15:37:18 links dead 15:37:40 got that from the blogspot post http://trittweiler.blogspot.com/2008/12/last-wednesday-i-gave-talk-to-munich.html 15:37:56 looks like it has moved into the talks folder 15:38:09 found it separately through google, thanks 15:38:44 It's in a talks/ subdirectory nowadays 15:43:39 vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.111.104] has joined #lisp 15:44:05 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442646.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 15:44:55 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-84-118.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:26 -!- p_l|home [~pl@213.5.11.129] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:45:54 benreesman [~ben@75.103.8.58] has joined #lisp 15:46:02 p_l|home_ [~pl@213.5.11.129] has joined #lisp 15:46:36 -!- p_l|home_ is now known as p_l|home 15:48:43 madnificent [~user@83.101.1.108] has joined #lisp 15:51:21 -!- maus [~maus@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Bye bye!] 15:53:35 *fusss* really wishes Pidgin didn't use MS Comic Sans for chat 15:54:13 your chat isn't comic enough? 15:54:24 -!- demism [~demism@pool-71-161-40-44.clppva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:54:29 fusss: That should be configurable, methinks. 15:55:20 -!- kejsaren_ [~kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:57:32 -!- splittist [~dmurray@34-58.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 15:57:47 mk2` [~user@evanspc2.rai.umds.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:01:45 Nietecht [~chatzilla@d54C537F0.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:01:49 is there a way to log/record the protocol messages between emacs and the lisp? 16:01:57 swank<->slime 16:02:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:03:17 Bronsa [~bronsa@host114-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:03:21 *UnwashedMeme* just remembered *slime-events* 16:03:59 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-64-22.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:12 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-76.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:16 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:08:23 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:51 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-76.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:11:50 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7569c3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:21 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:33 -!- leo2007 [~leo@cpc1-cmbg13-0-0-cust596.5-4.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:22:31 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:26:24 -!- benreesman [~ben@75.103.8.58] has left #lisp 16:31:48 brandonz [~brandon@24.38.183.236] has joined #lisp 16:31:49 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 16:33:18 hi. about weak hash table again, a failed example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/114815 16:34:22 I would expect to get 0 16:36:23 Possibly a stray reference to your gensym? 16:37:08 There are all sorts of things that can cause an extra reference to be preserved, even accidentally. 16:37:17 I trush in weak hash table implementation (should?) , but it is a good example use? 16:37:59 If you're using SBCL on an x86oid, the stack and register conservatism alone could cause it... And the fact that the conservatism pins the -entire page- doesn't help. 16:38:16 davazp: try not doing it in the lexical contour of a LET. 16:39:16 http://paste.lisp.org/display/114815#1 16:39:17 Essentially: Don't expect deterministic behavior from the interaction of GC and weakness. The only guarantees you're given are for when your weak pointer -won't- be broken, not when it will. 16:40:48 Xach: yeah, it worked so, thanks. I can have a clean conscience now! :-) 16:41:07 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:07 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:41:07 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 16:41:57 gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:31 maybe it's just a weak conscience 16:44:23 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:44:37 -!- brandonz [~brandon@24.38.183.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:46:05 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.221.254.62] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:46:34 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:47:02 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:49:18 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:49:25 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 16:50:49 hugod [~hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:51:31 *p_l|home* admits that seeing SBCL's restart selection dialog in his package manager was ... interesting 16:55:37 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-105.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:55:38 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-105.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:56:02 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-105.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:56:11 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-105.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:56:33 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:05 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:58:14 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-168-225.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:58:30 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:59:35 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-105.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:00:41 -!- Ogedei [~user@p579F6D0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:02:10 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-182-105.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:03:08 Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-148-29-146.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:14 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:49 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:06:14 pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255273.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:07:22 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 17:12:47 -!- Intensity [Jc9DaehUOZ@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Quit: Intensity] 17:15:14 jmbr [~jmbr@238.245.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:15:45 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:17:03 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.111.103.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Quit: sleeping] 17:18:13 does anyone have a link to the source of swclos ? 17:18:27 madnificent: you mean symbolic web? 17:19:27 benreesman [~ben@75.103.8.58] has joined #lisp 17:19:36 p_l|home: the one described at http://iswc2004.semanticweb.org/demos/32/ 17:19:58 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:32 -!- xan_ [~xan@46.204.192.61.tokyo.bflets.alpha-net.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:20:34 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:11 Intensity [hkqsKBNDG2@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 17:21:14 slyrus [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:16 document says "contact e-mail address" 17:21:40 so I suspect it never got normally published 17:22:18 I didn't take that guess. Looks like I can't give it a test drive without bothering them 17:26:33 Jabberwockey [~jens@hmbg-5f7629df.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:28 *drewc* discovers ((lambda () -)) and declared it his new favorite lisp quine 17:28:30 drewc: Even better than - itself? 17:29:04 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 17:29:06 nyef yeah, much better... :foo is a pretty lame quine, as is 'foo, "hello world" and - 17:29:22 however, abusing - is valid :) 17:29:37 it should have been called the quine operator 17:30:57 of course, i think they could have picked a better character 17:31:20 -!- symbole [~user@216.214.176.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31:24 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:31:24 or...not had it be a damn *single character* in the first place. 17:31:35 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 17:32:44 foom: indeed. FWIW i stumbled on to it because i had a typo like (values - 3 5) 17:32:45 *current-source-form*, maybe? 17:32:52 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:32:54 p_l|home: joy, those email addresses don't exist anymore 17:33:20 needless to say, the results were not at all what i was expecting. 17:34:08 OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:35 drewc: could I get a copy of FTW (or whatever is its current name) code? :) 17:35:56 hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-74-187.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:28 me boggles at this quine. 17:36:31 why does it work? 17:36:37 p_l|home: pull http://www.deepsky.com/~fade/ftw.git, which has an apparently working demo 17:36:51 oh, that's definitely broken atm. :) 17:36:52 lol 17:36:53 drewc: thanks 17:37:17 Fade: heh, I simply want to look at 17:37:26 well, it's visible 17:37:33 it'll even compile. 17:37:34 :) 17:37:36 haha 17:37:47 oh, well there you go 17:37:48 :D 17:37:49 *p_l|home* still has to do the paperwork for his current job 17:38:13 my branch has no working demos, and has a vastly changed dispatch mechanism. 17:38:19 the same syntax is available though. 17:38:28 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:41:32 tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has joined #lisp 17:46:09 tritchey_ [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has joined #lisp 17:46:09 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:10 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 17:46:40 tritchey_ [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has joined #lisp 17:46:40 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:41 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 17:47:22 tritchey_ [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has joined #lisp 17:47:22 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:26 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 17:47:34 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 17:47:46 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:47:54 tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has joined #lisp 17:49:32 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7569c3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:36 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:49:46 tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has joined #lisp 17:50:38 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:51:14 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:51:26 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:51:30 tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has joined #lisp 17:52:05 tritchey_ [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has joined #lisp 17:52:07 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:13 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 17:52:22 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has quit [Client Quit] 17:52:43 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@hmbg-5f7629df.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53:00 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 17:55:34 phf [~user@38.98.248.211] has joined #lisp 17:56:11 -!- benreesman [~ben@75.103.8.58] has quit [Quit: benreesman] 17:59:48 -!- Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00:36 Dodek [am291698@students.mimuw.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 18:04:02 heya drewc 18:04:22 hey Xach 18:04:25 drewc: I used your testimonial. Hope you don't mind! 18:04:37 i don't mind at all... which and where? 18:04:42 on quicklisp.org 18:04:47 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:04:57 :D 18:05:10 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:05:34 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:22 -!- davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:27 i like the german-ness of hans's quote 18:07:41 -!- phf [~user@38.98.248.211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:59 I'll see if I can get Werner Herzog to read it. 18:10:19 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:06 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-28-154.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:13:51 benreesman [~ben@75.103.8.58] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:17:05 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:17:27 *rtoym* wonders how many lisps support read-sequence to a octet array from a character stream. 18:17:51 -!- hugod [~hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 18:19:18 -!- hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-74-187.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:19:54 rtoym: heh, seems like it's technically allowed in the nasal daemon sense 18:20:23 ah, well... 18:20:40 Right. Cmucl 8-bit allows it. The example in flexi-streams indicates that some Lisp (LW?) allows it. 18:21:53 arguably the notes dissallow it. 18:21:56 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:22:15 "read-sequence is identical in effect to iterating over the indicated subsequence and reading one element at a time from stream and storing it into sequence" 18:22:20 notes aren't normative 18:22:24 fair enough 18:23:04 and actually, the second line of the notes seems to allow it, so i'm for it! :) 18:24:19 Exceptional situations says it might signal if the element read doesn't match the sequence element type. 18:24:44 -!- thom_ [~thom@c-24-19-97-223.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:26:26 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@2002:4855:eb9a:0:219:e3ff:fe02:96b8] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 18:32:50 Hmm. If you append to a file using an external format of utf16be, should the byte order mark be output? Probably not. 18:33:32 perhaps depends on whether the file is non-empty 18:34:06 Yeah, that complicates things a bit. 18:34:33 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.241.155.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:36:24 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:09 -!- mk2` [~user@evanspc2.rai.umds.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:26 -!- froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:39:47 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:42:09 brandonz [~brandon@24.38.183.236] has joined #lisp 18:44:58 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-5-30.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:49:42 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:44 -!- vu3rdd [~vu3rdd@122.167.111.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:36 -!- sepp2k [~sexy@p548CCA09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: sepp2k] 18:52:23 sepp2k [~sexy@p548CCA09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:59 hadronzoo [~user@71.21.200.158] has joined #lisp 18:55:23 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host114-175-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:56:57 -!- hadronzoo [~user@71.21.200.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57:25 daniel_ [~daniel@p50829FD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:25 hadronzoo [~user@71.21.200.158] has joined #lisp 19:00:42 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B3261B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:01:50 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:03:01 -!- benreesman [~ben@75.103.8.58] has quit [Quit: benreesman] 19:04:21 -!- navigator [~navigator@p54896FA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:08:20 benreesman [~ben@75.103.8.58] has joined #lisp 19:10:53 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:54 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: updates] 19:11:11 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 19:13:35 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:02 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279442646.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:17:00 -!- Nietecht [~chatzilla@d54C537F0.access.telenet.be] has left #lisp 19:18:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-67-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:48 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-28-154.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:23:22 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:24:24 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24:45 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 19:25:07 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:28:17 mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 19:29:04 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:33:42 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-29-150.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:34:00 wg1024 [~cg@dslb-084-058-130-169.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:47 -!- wg1024 [~cg@dslb-084-058-130-169.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:39:02 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:39:07 Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-42-33.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:41:03 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 19:41:06 daniel_ [~daniel@p50829DD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:06 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 19:42:10 Hi 19:42:58 -!- daniel [~daniel@p50829FD2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:44:05 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:45:38 Hi Sikander 19:46:29 if I instantiate a classe, then modify the class definition to add a slot, is there a way to add the slot to the old instance ? 19:46:32 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-138-79.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 19:48:11 LiamH: Didn't have much luck profiling. Or I should say: I probably spent too little time on it to understand what it all means. 19:48:20 galdor: it happens automatically. 19:48:31 galdor: The slot will be added, and even initialized. this is done automagically by CLOS 19:48:34 galdor: you can customize what happens by writing methods for update-instance-for-redefined-class. 19:48:49 oh, very nice 19:48:59 thank you 19:49:00 Sikander: even just knowing "time spent in CL" vs. "time spent in foreign code" might be illuminating 19:49:19 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 LiamH: Yeah, I know. I just find it strange that I can change the time it takes by factors of 2 by just changing the way the asserts are done (while still performing the same test cases of course). 19:51:26 Sikander: I know, that's odd. That might be something to ask tmh. 19:51:49 Though I think you should be able to macroexpand and see the difference. 19:52:29 aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:52:45 LiamH: Ah, good idea. My debugging skills are still on the level of when I did C. I forget about the nice things in lisp. 19:53:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.135.206.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:55:07 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.114.243.190.plusnet.thn-ag3.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:08 -!- slyrus [~slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:55:22 -!- benny [~user@i577A15B1.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:58:03 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.113.78.167.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:58:45 -!- hadronzoo [~user@71.21.200.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:00:40 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-138-79.vologda.ru] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:00:40 -!- benreesman [~ben@75.103.8.58] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:00:40 -!- Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-148-29-146.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:00:40 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [*.net *.split] 20:00:40 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.169] has quit [*.net 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[~ziarkaen@87.114.243.190.plusnet.thn-ag3.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:26:32 hey beach 20:27:52 Hello beach. 20:29:51 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:31:48 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:33:24 davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:04 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:37:05 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-138-79.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:37:14 hmmm.... question to fellow professionals, how much do you charge clients (hourly rate) for sysadmin/developer tasks (most of the work so far was sysadmin stuff, while future work will be mostly developement)? Assume the developement is going to be in CL :-) 20:37:52 That sounds like a question for drewc to start with, since he definitely does both. 20:39:02 nyef: yeah, I'm just kinda stumped because due to nature of how I got the contract, it's still in legal limbo and I just ended up calculating rather high amount ^^; 20:41:35 depending on the length and terms of the contract, anywhere between $50 and $150/hr 20:41:56 Mmm. I haven't had a real sysadmin position in... well... ever? 20:42:22 i usually give a significant discount for a large retainer, and discount further for a long term contract with lots of billable hours. 20:42:49 nyef: the only job where I actually had "sysadmin" in the title was more of a cable monkey... I still pulled more money than all of my classmates (it was straight out of school). Somehow, it was *great* fun :D 20:43:22 drewc: thanks 20:43:42 The one time I did the cable monkey thing was a one-shot for a small office with some friends... using 10Base-2. 20:44:05 but sysadmining is so much more than just laying cables (: 20:44:11 antifuchs: true 20:44:23 meaning, you may have done it without realizing you did (: 20:44:35 antifuchs: but my contract was too short to get me properly up to speed on everything, though I could have extended it 20:44:56 and yes, I did it a lot without any contract, and tons of it classify as charity work of sorts, I guess 20:45:05 I was a sysadmin once, and I now know that I could have done a much better job (: 20:45:29 one: stop believing stuff will work and actually monitor. two: replace failing components. (: 20:46:46 for sysadmin tasks i often charge more, simply because i hate it and i don't really want to do it. 20:47:57 heh. and here I was wondering how I convince the client to pay $20/hr :P 20:49:53 -!- sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has quit [Quit: sellout] 20:51:11 p_l|home: That would be very low. 20:51:29 beach: and yet it would still pay bills for two months 20:51:45 I see, yes. 20:53:18 -!- fusss [~fusss@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:53:33 depending on how many hours you are willing to work (-: 20:53:43 -!- varjag_ [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:53:49 i've got 10 years of experience and a consistent client base... $20 is low, but sometimes when starting out you have to take the gigs at the rate their offered at. 20:54:21 antifuchs: that was calculating for this month, 34h done (with few of them done at higher rate as it included ~7hrs of travel) 20:54:39 p_l|home: Our recent masters graduates make 2000 EUR/month or so which is about $20/hour, but that is for a stable job. And the salaries in France are relatively low as I understand. 20:54:53 make sure your contract states the client can't disclose your heavily discounted rate, and do an excellent job, so you'll get referals who you can now charge a higher rate. 20:55:42 if you ever get too busy to handle all the work you're getting, that's when you double your rates... if you lose half your clients you break even with half as many billable hours. 20:56:14 What a brilliant idea with the doubling. 20:56:18 *schmrkc* makes a note. 20:56:19 they're* (three paragraphs up) 20:56:19 p_l|home: if you can bill solidly for all time at that rate you might do allright, but in general professional rates are higher because you aren't billing every second it takes to run a business (you have your own infrastructure maintenance) 20:57:08 bgs100 [~ian@h237.35.186.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:08 thanks. Well, I didn't add extra hours for all the documentation I have to write, so I guess I have enough arguments to back it up, and it gives me enough wiggle space to give even a 50% discount... 20:57:08 -!- bgs100 [~ian@h237.35.186.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:57:08 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:57:12 our rates are in line with drewc's after we learned that lesson (several times) 20:57:16 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:57:39 -!- hypercube31 [~hypercube@66.90.18.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:57:56 p_l|home: documentation is a deliverable, you have to bill those hours. 20:58:19 UnwashedMeme: I actually factored that in, it's just that unless your client is big enough to be used to experienced consulting teams and such, they are more likely to compare you to cheapo middle-schoolers 20:58:50 p_l|home: Also, there is very little risk that you will be rejected by asking for more. They will just negociate it down, so it is usually safe to start high. 20:59:07 drewc: true, but I'm including that bit as a bonus - the documentation for the software (CL of course) will be billed :) 20:59:25 good manuals don't write themselves after all. 20:59:32 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-84-118.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:59:49 p_l|home: make sure you write it down on the invoice as N hours billed at $0.. they like that. 20:59:58 beach: true. Now I have to ensure I've get all the details correctly written. 21:00:03 drewc: oh, good trick. 21:00:08 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:00:13 (well, trick of trade :)) 21:00:15 *drewc* should write a book :) 21:00:27 *nyef* is going to have to save this log off somewhere for future reference. 21:00:37 *p_l|home* hopes to make it into a lisp success story in the end :P 21:00:42 "how to make barely enough money to keep in you sailboat by consulting in computers" 21:00:51 keep you in* 21:01:02 dyslexia means lack of coffee 21:01:04 drewc: btw, the owner of the company is a sailor :) 21:01:18 p_l|home: extra discounts for sailing excursions :) 21:02:20 though I don't know if she got to captain rank (big yachts, big sea, sizable crew etc.) 21:02:28 drewc: That seems not too hard as long as you don't care what you are working on/with. 21:02:33 there's this really good web site with freelancing tips. let me dig it up 21:03:01 *sykopomp* dreams of being a freelancer someday, but doesn't want to go nuts with the business management bit. 21:04:43 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:04:58 BTW, to show why I was so worried about $20 - my friend has to do with 1/5th of this working for a company - he is quite good at web design (though it was a painful road, and I wouldn't give him access to backend processing - thankfully he gives that to others). That's the situation of the polish market where I've got the contract. 21:05:26 there: http://unixwiz.net/techtips/be-consultant.html - that was a good resource for me. 21:06:12 antifuchs: oh, good one - I lost the link to it, rebookmarking it again :) 21:06:48 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:06:49 cool. that has most of the things drewc has said as freelancing maxims. print them out and put them up somewhere (: 21:07:27 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:29 *p_l|home* guesses he gives the "warm fuzzy feeling" to that particular client already, thanks to previous non-professional acquaintance and nice atmosphere :D 21:08:47 p_l|home: he makes excellent points in that paragraph.. customer service is your job, sysadmin and development are just one of the services you provide. 21:11:35 benny [~user@i577A71F0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:56 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:17:14 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: Time to sleep...] 21:17:47 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:58 *p_l|home* calculated his basic rate as £12 GBP/hr based on the financial goals so far :D 21:19:51 what do you sell at this price? 21:20:07 -!- sepp2k [~sexy@p548CCA09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: sepp2k] 21:20:34 Fare: hourly work, sysadmin/developement (depends on what exactly, and that's for a case where I don't have to do lots of travel). 21:20:39 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:10 *p_l|home* is kinda struck between low rates in Poland and the higher rates in UK 21:21:10 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:26 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@bas1-montreal43-2925255273.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:03 good ol' lisp hackin today http://i.imgur.com/Hdxct.png 21:22:17 gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:52 ... it's the crazy font, again o_O 21:22:56 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:23:33 ... WTF? Insane font, worse window size in comparison to the font... 21:23:46 whoa (: 21:24:00 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A5092.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:04 is that a monospaced comic font? awesome. 21:24:24 ah, looks like it isn't 21:24:41 antifuchs: It's not, but the terminal forces it. 21:24:50 So it is in that image. 21:24:52 Isn't... awesome, monospaced comic, or both? 21:25:10 Isn't actually monospaced but is forced to be. 21:25:56 Also, at least it looks like my compiler is a high school girl writing notes to me in all caps, as opposed to a Stalin-esque compiler yelling DEFUN DEFUN YES-OR-NO-P. 21:26:48 ... didn't consider that 21:26:52 *p_l|home* notes that down 21:27:37 Quadrescence: you could patch slime so it has hearts in the prompt. 21:27:54 at least make it CL-USER<3 21:29:51 that font is hilarious. 21:29:57 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 21:30:19 mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has joined #lisp 21:30:30 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-20-82-64-8-181.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:30:55 s/STYLE-WARNINGS/FASHION-EMERGENCIES/g 21:31:25 exactly (: 21:32:10 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:32:42 at least it's not fAsHiOn-EmErGeNcY 21:33:04 No, you know... it looks more like a blackboard than a high school girl's writing. 21:33:49 symbole [~user@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 21:33:55 -!- symbole [~user@216.214.176.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:34:01 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-26-82-254-86-60.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:37 sykopomp: imagine a nubile girl in slightly hiked up skirt writing on that blackboard, then. 21:35:07 p_l|home: I can't. It's actually making me think of the SICP lecture videos. 21:35:33 No teenage girls anywhere in site. Just awesome 80s hair and a comp sci dork with his shirt talked in counting parentheses by hand. 21:35:37 ... Imagine a nubile girl in slightly hiked up skirt lecturing on SICP? 21:35:41 pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-214-153.wireless.concordia.ca] has joined #lisp 21:36:09 nyef: L.i.S.P., in French. 21:36:14 Rawr :3 21:36:14 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:36:46 nyef: who was it in the SICP lecture? Abelson? 21:36:53 I have no idea. 21:37:06 well, just imagine him, but more nubile, in a slightly hiked up skirt. 21:37:08 Plus 80s hair. 21:37:09 sykopomp: yes 21:37:13 sykopomp: not sussman? 21:37:39 p_l|home: I don't know! I don't recognize these people's faces. I've been known to confuse McCarthy and Dijkstra. 21:37:48 Sussman, p_l|home, right. 21:39:46 wow, that font. 21:39:47 heh. I remembered it only thanks to the SICP VN and sussmannashi naku koro ni image 21:39:56 *drewc* is late to the party 21:40:01 drewc: cya 21:40:29 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 21:40:35 *sykopomp* insists that it looks like SICP-teaching font, not like teenage-girl font. 21:40:49 p_l|home: i was refering to the crazy font-writing nubile young sussman-having party 21:40:58 ahaha 21:41:02 :D 21:41:03 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A8D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:41:20 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:44:47 Necessary reference to obnoxious Abelson/LISP/SICP video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdj6deraQ6k 21:46:33 ....wow 21:47:28 -!- hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-74-187.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:48:05 uhm.. 21:49:39 well, that is either brilliant or frightening... i'm too old to tell which and too young to admit it. 21:49:58 heh, I lol'd (again) 21:50:16 The kawaii sussman really did it for me. 21:51:30 it uses tons of rather obscure references, that's given :) 21:51:47 <3 this. 21:52:22 excellent video. ^_^ 21:53:06 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53:10 *antifuchs* giggles at "CUDDER" 21:53:25 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-124-24.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:54:30 antifuchs: hahaha 21:54:33 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@129.174.97.34] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 21:54:36 -EVAL-APPLY 21:55:07 sykopomp: When is the last time you used EVAL in serious code? 21:56:25 Quadrescence: today, I guess. It was my own EVAL, though :) 21:57:56 sykopomp: What did you make your own EVAL for? 21:58:33 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-119-238.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:07 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@hmbg-5f7629df.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:36 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:05:48 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:07:02 konr [~user@201.82.132.104] has joined #lisp 22:07:27 Quadrescence: I'm working my way through LiSP, so I'm playing with toy lisps. 22:07:56 Quadrescence: I'm using eval in the app I'm currently developing. To provide scripting and debugging REPLs... 22:08:11 sykopomp: Did you read PAIP? 22:08:58 Quadrescence: Partly. It's on the shelf. 22:09:16 Also, I've used EVAL in other situations to eval code saved as strings in a database. 22:09:33 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:35 sykopomp: Oh man, go through it all! You'll write a Scheme interpreter and compiler in PAIP; also a Prolog interpreter/compiler. 22:09:53 Quadrescence: I've skimmed over the compiler, yes. 22:10:31 LiSP also has quite a bit of discussion about the history of this stuff, the implications of various decisions in the design of the language, interpreter, and compiler, etc. 22:10:38 guther [guther@irc.kunsmann.eu] has joined #lisp 22:12:09 There was an EVAL in one of the macros in SBCL that I tried to get rid of at one point, only to find that it was actually the most concise way to do what the macro wanted to do. 22:12:56 the sad part about EVAL seems to be how hard it is to separate the language into runtime vs ide when you want to :\ 22:13:52 nyef: not a case for sb-int:constant-form-value? 22:14:04 That's not a problem with EVAL per se, there's a lot of other junk as well... 22:14:40 tcr: Might be, actually. The use-case was something like a parameter that was either an integer or a symbol, and if it was a symbol then its value was taken. 22:14:54 Is Haskell perhaps a model of "look, we get the nice development environment, but we can shed most of the unnecessary crud for deployment"? 22:15:13 well, GHC, specifically. 22:15:18 Uhm that's not my experience with haskell at all 22:15:33 tcr: in which sense? 22:15:47 Maybe I misunderstood 22:16:23 -!- troussan [~user@c-24-245-15-191.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:35 How did you interpret it? 22:16:41 sykopomp: till lately, GHC tended to make rather big executables as well, though they were self-contained usually 22:17:00 (not as big as SBCL's, though) 22:17:07 sykopomp: I don't understand that much of the information the compiler is able to collect at compile-time is all thrown away and not retained to runtime 22:18:07 ahh 22:18:47 most is thrown away, however thunks/functions have some extra headers inlined before the actual start of code (used by GC) 22:18:50 You know what might be neat? A standalone application that will bind an SBCL core to the runtime without starting the core and using save-lisp-and-die. 22:19:09 nyef: what about core being basically a giant FASL? :D 22:19:49 No, no. A proper memory image. 22:20:07 well, you'd still have to get all that code loaded into memory. Disk usage may be smaller, but your RAM usage will still be high, no? 22:20:12 nyef: you misunderstood me. FASLs becoming proper memory images :D 22:20:33 that can be mmaped into process' space 22:20:37 Oh, that. The hacked genesis for producing heap image fragments that can be mmap()ed thing? 22:21:20 nyef: I was thinking of taking it further, and actually splitting the core into separate files 22:21:34 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:59 Mmm. You'd have to define your functionality subsets carefully, then. 22:22:03 so the difference between "pure runtime" and "full image" could be done by removing single file, which could be as well linked in. 22:22:27 and yes, very careful definition of subsets (and some work on making some parts less interwoven) 22:23:25 though the most interesting to me would be to see how much one can get by dropping compiler and possibly separate some introspection data into separate file 22:24:19 Tell you what, I'll do the genesis changes if you do the rest. :-P 22:24:26 I don't see a reason for a package management utility to include full compiler for example :D 22:26:44 fsmunoz [~fsmunoz@a85-138-211-37.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:28:09 Kovensky [~kovensky@abraxo.bluebottle.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:28:25 *p_l|home* recently started using a pacman wrapper written in CL, which is delivered with SBCL 22:28:48 paktahn? 22:29:05 sykopomp: yea 22:29:34 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-119-238.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:29:35 _ace4016_ [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-119-238.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:50 Kovensky: hi 22:31:02 hi 22:31:19 arch user? lol 22:32:42 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:58 yeah. 22:33:07 minion: tell Kovensky about pcl 22:33:07 Kovensky: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:33:19 ^ material to get started fast :) 22:33:24 heh 22:33:32 -!- benny [~user@i577A71F0.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33:34 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:33:39 *Kovensky* used arch for the longest time but is atm on win7 as a rather useful games bootloader 22:35:34 -!- holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:36:40 holycow [~new@poco208-2.fredcanhelp.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:49 MagBo [~Sweater@87.246.131.149] has joined #lisp 22:37:40 benny [~user@i577A71F0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:47 "useful" and "game bootloader" don't go well together. 22:37:55 Unless you're paid to play games, of course. 22:40:04 symbole [~user@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 22:40:20 Or paid to assist other people in playing games. 22:40:44 Fare: or it's useful for recovery so you can face next day at work 22:41:09 games are pretty useful for killing productivity! 22:42:46 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-64-22.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:43:02 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:43:36 slyrus [~slyrus@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:59 indeed =) movies/films/cartoons too=) 22:44:32 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:48:48 -!- _ace4016_ [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-119-238.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:49:19 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-117-125.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:25 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 22:59:55 Fare: or paid to develop games, which may be what nyef is getting at 23:00:19 "I'm doing research for my career!" 23:00:53 sykopomp: for a game designer, playing MULE and Civ is technically doing classics research 23:01:16 they should try playing tabletop games more, imnsho. 23:01:19 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5B286F38.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 23:01:45 sykopomp: I think they do 23:01:57 most of the good ones have a very broad idea of gaming 23:02:11 Adamant: playing Civ is short road to NEET 23:02:23 depends on the subculture. Some of the bigger 'indie' crowds seem pretty sparse wrt tabletop. 23:02:24 p_l|home: no, that's MMORPGs 23:02:29 p_l|home: ^ 23:02:52 Adamant: MMORPGs are inferior to Civ "the time eater" :) 23:03:11 p_l|home: you can beat Civ. you can't beat a MMORPG 23:03:26 I'll have my own game up at some point in the distant future :( 23:03:43 in lisp! 23:03:48 *sykopomp* makes sure to stay ontopic. 23:04:00 sykopomp: output to HTML5 if possible 23:04:05 jso [~user@ip68-111-169-131.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:14 ... fuck no 23:04:15 Adamant: that is, in fact, at least partly the plan. 23:04:15 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:04:20 ^_- 23:04:33 *p_l|home* considers JS engines to be too immature yet :/ 23:04:36 Depending on how long it takes, though. I may yet catch the tail end of AJAX. 23:04:45 p_l|home: I'm not doing fancy graphics. 23:04:51 p_l|home: they execute code ON THE GPU 23:04:52 a web interface is, in fact, ideal. 23:04:59 what do you WANT?????!!!!!!! :P 23:05:54 -!- Intensity [hkqsKBNDG2@unaffiliated/intensity] has quit [Quit: Intensity] 23:06:01 there's also WebGL if you want graphics 23:06:04 All the time in the world, compressed into the next two weeks, and 10 years of programming experience. 23:06:05 gigamonk` [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:06:20 -!- gigamonk` [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:07:08 gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:28 -!- ramus [~ramus@99.23.140.250] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:08:33 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:44 ramus [~ramus@99.23.140.250] has joined #lisp 23:09:07 hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-74-187.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:09 shawn-p [~fake@97-91-222-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:10:25 -!- hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-74-187.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:35 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:10:55 hadronzoo [~user@ppp-70-251-74-187.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:58 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:14:20 Intensity [afhZicixf8@unaffiliated/intensity] has joined #lisp 23:14:47 Adamant: I want consistent performance and feature set, not random lockups. 23:14:50 Heh, just stumbled across this: http://i.imgur.com/zaQx7.png 23:15:08 Adamant: that's why I'm quite interested in HTML5 support... in Flash 23:16:58 Quadrescence: hmmm... $30, not so expensive 23:18:09 darkmag [~vfalico@ip-94-112-36-51.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 23:18:53 but not for web, eh. 23:21:18 timack [~tim@hlfx52-2a-221.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 23:21:55 -!- brandonz [~brandon@24.38.183.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:23:16 naiv [~naiv@ARennes-553-1-88-252.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:25:43 I don't know why they bother. 23:27:02 not endorsing piracy, but everything on the Internet is free, including fonts. paying for it is your responsibility, but it's still out there even if someone doesn't. 23:27:31 also, you can at least check public website compliance very, very easily 23:27:58 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:29:15 Adamant: true. However, I prefer to pay for stuff I use for commercial ventures instead of piracy. I might sometimes skive a little in order to learn, but actual paid deployment? Paid fully. 23:29:36 p_l|home: right, I'm saying they're ignoring a gold mine. 23:30:44 Adamant: it's not exactly like that - they allowed certain level of embedding on web, but they didn't allow for @font-face 23:30:51 ah 23:30:58 so it's not all or nothing 23:31:17 well, I do font embedding only with @font-face 23:31:17 "@font-face" is evil, you can't google for "@font" without finding results on @font-face ._. 23:31:33 (@font is a GDI trick to get rotated fonts for east asian vertical layout) 23:32:03 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-gybbqhqcidlgfqtd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:14 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 23:33:03 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:36:04 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:57 Adamant: I still haven't been able to find Allegro CL or LispWorks on the internet. :{ 23:38:22 Quadrescence: I've seen EE's get $50,000 pieces of electronics CAD software. I suspect they are out there somewhere. 23:38:47 but let's change the subject 23:38:55 Yeah... 23:39:12 Let's talk about how we pirated SLIME. 23:39:33 Adamant: Piano costs 50k per license. It's made by a single developer with MCL and LW :) 23:40:15 p_l|home: Haha, seriously? 23:40:44 -!- dnm [~dnm@c-68-34-57-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:40:48 Quadrescence: yup 23:41:02 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.135.206.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:41:10 single-person company, and the cost is for yearly subscription 23:41:36 Hahaha, what is the program? 23:42:20 (what is it for) 23:42:36 -!- shawn-p [~fake@97-91-222-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [] 23:42:52 -!- gz_ [~gz@209-6-40-245.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: gz_] 23:44:58 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:45:28 Quadrescence: operational analysis of aircrafts 23:45:56 the 50k sum is for single seat license 23:46:24 I was going to quit lisp forever if it was a piano program. 23:46:56 http://www.piano.aero/ 23:51:51 brown [~user@nat/google/x-wghufdaulpqpeqbi] has joined #lisp 23:51:53 Quadrescence: usually Lisp vendors will be happy to give you an extended evaluation license, or come to other terms. They realize it doesn't do them any good to try to charge large sums if you can't afford it. 23:52:17 -!- brown is now known as Guest88550 23:53:24 rich_holygoat: A Franz guy I talked to over email was pretty nice, even voluntarily followed up. For some reason, I just don't like using limited licenses where I can't save work or have a limited heap, especially since the first thing I'll do is try to break the compiler in a reasonable way. 23:53:36 -!- pierrep [~ppasteau@dyn-214-153.wireless.concordia.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:55:06 Quadrescence: the developer evaluation licenses usually are custom for the company and have all necessary parts to get the product into delivery, afaik 23:55:38 ahh i remember receiving an allegro CL for linux in the 90s ]) 23:55:48 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:55:50 mbohun [~mbohun@eth649.act.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:11 also, if you're doing work for money, you get very used to figuring out how much your time is worth 23:56:29 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@eth649.act.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:42 if it comes down to me spending an ungodly number of hours writing a SOAP server, or a persistence framework, or generating executables 23:56:53 versus paying a vendor who already has stable, tested, documented libraries... 23:57:10 ... a SOAP server? Really? IT'S BLOODY HTTP WITH A FUNNY HEADER! 23:57:12 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:26 nyef: not spent too much time with SOAP, mmm? :) 23:57:31 Meh, I don't need no [sic] Allegro CL. Genera is on my side and I don't need no [sic] trick Lisp compiler. 23:57:33 I hate the protocol with a passion 23:57:35 nyef: till you figure the mess that's the XML part :P 23:57:55 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:01 omg the envelopes (soap) 23:58:12 getting compatibility is hard with soap, but that's what it was created for. 23:58:16 Quadrescence: I figure you have the apropriate developer systems and the $5000 Genera license? :D 23:58:17 irony or just crap design? 23:58:28 I'm tempted to buy that Linefeed font 23:58:33 though I'm fairly happy with Consolas 23:58:45 p_l|home: Actually, yes I do. 23:59:08 I have two systems with all the software on CDs (and installed on disk). 23:59:42 Quadrescence: Ivory or VLM? 23:59:43 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:59:46 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:59 p_l|home: Ivory