00:00:00 yes 00:01:00 cffi::canonicalize-foreign-type 00:02:03 merci. 00:02:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:02:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:02:35 -!- vsingh [~vishsingh@bas2-toronto10-2925113376.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 00:03:10 vishsingh [~vishsingh@bas2-toronto10-2925113376.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:04:07 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:06:48 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:25 -!- csl [~christian@85.84-234-202.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 00:10:39 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:07 hi. anyone know about simple motion detection in a webcam image in lisp or accessible from lisp? 00:15:08 Heh. My copy of Keene's CLOS book just got here. Say "AI Department" on the side in awkward pen strokes :) 00:17:01 sykopomp: :) 00:17:39 hmm. http://rutube.ru/tracks/2283799.html?v=fada9512f6906a1d2adc0fa4087ec132 video on motion detectino in cl 00:17:49 hah. Neat.... "I wrote this book using Concordia, the Symbolics workbench for writers.". Apparently, written in New Flavors! 00:19:32 oh man... 00:19:39 i still did not get my ansi-cl.... 00:20:38 i don't get it....' 00:22:13 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:18 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-17-246-43.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:23:55 -!- Edward_ [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-27-84.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:27:30 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.254] has joined #lisp 00:28:44 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:30:38 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:31:34 sepp2k [~sexy@p548CBD01.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:57 -!- Soulman [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has left #lisp 00:32:02 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:34:15 dto1: there was a russian guy with a number for a blog name who wrote a bit about doing video analysis in CL 00:36:18 [mzm] [~ziggy@92.98.168.178] has joined #lisp 00:36:45 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440354.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:36:59 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 00:37:18 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-139-149.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 00:37:57 -!- [mzm] [~ziggy@92.98.168.178] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46:03 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:55 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:54:33 -!- poincare101 [~root@rrcs-98-100-238-218.central.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:56:08 -!- m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-237-143.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: m7d] 00:57:43 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:00 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:00:22 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:23 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:32 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.250.38] has joined #lisp 01:03:47 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:10 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483A4C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:30 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:06:48 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483C39B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:08:07 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:51 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.250.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:20:34 sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.249.41] has joined #lisp 01:24:33 vsingh [~vishsingh@bas2-toronto10-2925114069.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:25:05 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@221.220.249.41] has quit [Client Quit] 01:26:40 -!- vishsingh [~vishsingh@bas2-toronto10-2925113376.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:27:13 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:27:52 *rtoym* sends another version of character completion for slime and cmucl. Hopefully this one will work better and be the final version for slime. 01:30:08 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:31:08 m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-237-143.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:32 rtoym: do you think it's best to have that code for older versions of CMUCL? 01:33:14 What do you mean? The code I sent should work for any version of cmucl with unicode. 01:34:09 i mean the ones which don't have UNICODE-COMPLETE 01:34:34 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:35:25 The code I sent for slime includes an implementation of unicode-complete for versions that don't have unicode-complete (which is all versions currently). 01:36:25 i'd just conditionally define character-completion-set if it's present, anyone willing to use it will just update their CMUCL 01:36:36 Oh. You're asking if slime should support such old versions? 01:37:28 if the cost of supporting old versions is including such a big piece of implementation internals 01:37:51 I think I'd prefer it because not everyone is willing to upgrade, and many use the versions distributed in some linux distro, which tends to be fairly old. 01:38:14 I'll leave the final decision up to you. 01:38:50 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:39:11 huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 01:39:39 i just think there isn't much people who use cmucl and want such character completion and are unwilling to update 01:40:00 maintaining that piece inside swank doesn't seem reasonable to me 01:41:17 I don't expect to update it anymore. If it's broken, then definitely upgrade. So maybe that's the final answer. (But I found it useful when running with 20b-pre2, and older versions.) 01:41:37 Er, Users should definitely update cmucl. 01:42:46 paste.lisp.org didn't show up. http://paste.lisp.org/display/114695 I have a question on SBCL's spinlock implementation 01:42:46 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:44:24 huangjs: if you want to more people who are able to answer this to see it either try #sbcl, or sbcl-devel@ 01:44:36 stassats: ok thanks 01:46:55 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:49:16 t 01:53:39 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-208.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 01:57:22 ldunn [~user@d110-32-139-102.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:07:46 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:50 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-221-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:45 Phoodus [foo@174-17-23-38.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:18 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx60-1-43.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:26:34 timack [~tim@hlfx64-2a-237.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 02:27:50 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:30:42 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:31:20 risent [~risent@122.85.29.59] has joined #lisp 02:31:30 ikki [~ikki@189.247.120.187] has joined #lisp 02:31:37 gko [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:35 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.120.187] has quit [Client Quit] 02:34:29 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.209] has joined #lisp 02:34:53 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:38:03 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-139-102.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:31 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:53:48 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx64-2a-237.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 02:54:06 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 03:05:58 turing [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:23 -!- turing [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:25 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:16:23 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:43 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:18:43 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-epqtysrzajbsxivu] has joined #lisp 03:19:05 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:19:22 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:50 -!- risent [~risent@122.85.29.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:25:31 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-epqtysrzajbsxivu] has left #lisp 03:28:47 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:37:44 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-12-108.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:44 -!- coyo [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:38:16 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hdiccptmhbpctish] has joined #lisp 03:40:02 cataska [~cataska@210.64.6.233] has joined #lisp 03:42:02 Xach: i will have to check it out 03:42:24 Xach: i am posting a video review of playstation move 03:47:07 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:47:20 -!- gko [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:49:01 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qqbufbymkawhfuzo] has joined #lisp 03:54:47 -!- danlentz [~dan@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:28 -!- davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:00:10 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:01:00 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:10:20 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-12-108.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: powerje] 04:11:48 Good morning everyone! 04:12:42 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 04:13:14 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 04:27:25 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:14 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:33:24 -!- m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-237-143.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: m7d] 04:36:36 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:39:11 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:46:30 so... how can I change the location of the user cache directory for ASDF2? 04:47:00 fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:47:39 <_3b> http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Controlling-where-ASDF-saves-compiled-files ? 04:47:48 -!- dracco235 [~andy@pool-96-224-53-152.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:47:51 dracco235 [~andy@pool-96-224-53-152.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:56 yeah, I've been reading that :) 04:48:56 I'm sure the answer is in there _somewhere_ 04:49:32 -!- vsingh [~vishsingh@bas2-toronto10-2925114069.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 04:58:46 there's 350 lines describing a DSL and an API. Would a sample file be _too_ much to ask? 05:01:51 Tau [~Euler@189-127-48-208.i-next.psi.br] has joined #lisp 05:01:55 -!- Tau [~Euler@189-127-48-208.i-next.psi.br] has left #lisp 05:02:21 <_3b> yeah, i can see why i skipped that section last time i looked at asdf docs :p 05:03:49 *_3b* suspects for just local configuration, setting asdf::*user-cache* would be easiest 05:10:53 great... we've got a DSL, an API, and we're still just setf'ing private variables willy-nilly. awesome. 05:11:53 <_3b> well, i think you could do (asdf:initialize-output-transform (t (stuf that would be in asdf:*user-cache*))) also, but i'm less sure what side effects that would have 05:13:05 <_3b> actually, maybe i sort of understand how to write a simple config file, hmm 05:13:09 *_3b* tries 05:13:32 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.47] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die] 05:14:20 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:15:30 benny [~user@i577A7AD3.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:16:54 :USER-CACHE | ;; designates the default location for the user cache 05:16:56 :SYSTEM-CACHE | ;; designates the default location for the system cache 05:16:58 is this it? 05:17:30 <_3b> The_Jon_Smith: those say to use the default locations... doesn't seem to be any direct/exported way to change those defaults though 05:18:35 i see 05:18:39 that is odd 05:18:55 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 05:19:03 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:19:18 it seems to say designates 05:19:27 which to me would mean that it assigns 05:21:25 <_3b> looks like putting (t ("/" "tmp" "asdf-test" :implementation)) in a file in ~/.config/common-lisp/asdf-output-translations.conf.d makes everything go to /tmp/asdf-test/ 05:21:35 yeah, makes little sense to me. there's an awful lot of infrastructure there for this not to be supported. I would have thought this would be a common thing to want to do. 05:22:57 *_3b* wonders how to override specific files in a particular system 05:23:18 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 05:23:25 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:23:27 <_3b> actually i guess :root would be more portable than "/" there 05:23:54 you tried that example? 05:23:59 <_3b> yeah 05:24:15 <_3b> takes forever for slime to connect the first time, but seemed to work 05:24:54 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 05:24:59 oh i see 05:25:00 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:25:03 is just weirdly worded 05:25:10 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 05:26:25 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:26:38 _3b: no idea what I'm doing wrong then, but that doesn't work for me. 05:26:43 SBCL? 05:26:47 <_3b> yeah 05:27:09 <_3b> did you get errors in *inferior-lisp*, or did it start normally and just not move the .fasls? 05:27:20 I'm just trying to start this from the shell 05:27:54 *_3b* tries without slime 05:28:29 risent [~risent@122.85.14.198] has joined #lisp 05:28:47 <_3b> yeah, still seems to work 05:29:00 *_3b* named the file in ...conf.d with .conf extension, dunno if that matters 05:29:46 oh, that _does_ matter. 05:29:48 thanks 05:30:53 <_3b> i suspect it is also intended to have the 2 digit load-order ## at the beginning too, but was too lazy to add that 05:31:56 <_3b> ah, 7.5 talks about the .conf.d stuff a bit... possibly it just needs to have /some/ extension rather than .conf specifically 05:32:57 <_3b> hmm, or maybe it does need to be .conf 05:33:49 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-248-51.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 05:34:01 Kerrick2 [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 05:34:06 -!- Kerrick2 [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:35:25 now to figure out how to make the ASDF_OUTPUT_CONFIGURATION shell variable thing work 05:35:46 <_3b> _TRANSLATIONS you mean? 05:38:41 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39:26 yeah, that 05:39:34 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:41:59 <_3b> ASDF_OUTPUT_TRANSLATIONS="(:output-translation:ignore-inherited-configuration (t (:root \"tmp\" \"asdf-testx\")))" ./clbuild lisp 05:42:03 <_3b> seems to work 05:42:28 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-42-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:42:32 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-42-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:42:37 <_3b> well, with a space before :ignore-... 05:42:39 Demosthenes [~demo@12.0.194.4] has joined #lisp 05:42:47 argh... right. I wasn't escaping my quotes. 05:42:49 thanks again. 05:42:52 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Quit: Kerrick] 05:45:56 darkmag [~vfalico@ip-94-112-36-51.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 05:47:17 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 05:47:38 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:49:09 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:55:38 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 05:56:11 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:56:12 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 06:00:03 morning 06:03:17 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:07:57 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 06:15:01 -!- dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:24 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.217.120] has joined #lisp 06:16:31 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:17:22 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.80.217.120] has quit [Client Quit] 06:18:05 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:20:18 nikodemus: there? 06:21:48 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:54 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:24:55 HAH! SICL quicksort takes 9s whereas SBCL sort takes 18s on a simple vector with ten million element. 06:25:17 SBCL stable-sort is faster, but uses temporary storage. 06:25:20 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-76-126-115-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 06:25:43 hohoho [~hohoho@bm210-148-115-127.bmobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:33:27 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:59 khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-14-65.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:50 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-33-35.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:35:03 thats a weird coincidence, i was just looking at the sort code 06:38:28 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:38:52 -!- khisanth_ [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-14-65.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:41:32 sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.209] has joined #lisp 06:43:50 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 06:45:04 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:46:23 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:53:58 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-9-211.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:21 beach: SICL == Scieneer? you have a copy? 07:02:51 <_3b> fusss: SICL = http://common-lisp.net/project/sicl/ 07:03:15 <_3b> scieneer is usually abbreviated scl i think 07:03:16 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:03:30 ow that's just sexy! building blocks for implementing Lisp .. 07:04:22 cloning now .. 07:04:31 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:05:29 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06:22 wow, this is gonna be fun read 07:06:28 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:06:32 specially for CL performance hacking 07:07:06 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:08:18 beach: is there a documentation somewhere on a required minimal kernel to assemble this? 07:08:39 does it use platform dependent #+condition #-compilation? 07:09:17 fusss: It is not nearly in a state that I recommend you use it at the moment. 07:09:31 keep at it! 07:09:46 this is a very good idea 07:09:51 thanks 07:09:59 layered common lisp 07:10:08 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:10:21 but don't forget to tell us what CL0 is :-) 07:10:25 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 07:12:02 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:12:45 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:13:27 freiksenet [~freiksene@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 07:13:40 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-113-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:13:45 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 07:13:54 freiksenet [~freiksene@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 07:17:28 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-32-35.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:17:28 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:19:11 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-15-149.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:48 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:19:53 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:20:13 good morning 07:21:28 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:23:28 huangjs: herep 07:25:31 hello mvilleneuve 07:27:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.174] has joined #lisp 07:29:23 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-rfweeeindnynclws] has joined #lisp 07:29:24 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-rfweeeindnynclws] has quit [Client Quit] 07:31:35 fiveop [~fiveop@p5B28793F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:46 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-uexghrkdlgbarsiz] has joined #lisp 07:39:24 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:38 be early and meet some hookers in a cocktail lounge 07:44:15 i'm not a hooker but i dress like one, and i like to meet guys 07:44:29 and talk about lisps 07:48:05 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 07:53:05 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@bm210-148-115-127.bmobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53:06 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 07:53:16 -!- antifuchs has set mode +b *!~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net 07:53:17 -!- zophy [~foobar@2001:858:745:a0e4:200:1aff:fe19:d355] has been kicked from #lisp by antifuchs (Your behavior is not conducive to the desired environment.) 07:58:28 -!- frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:59:35 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 08:00:54 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7562e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:21 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 08:06:21 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:10:08 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BFD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:34 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 08:13:28 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:32 Hmm, I guess it is not possible to rotate the elements of a vector by some arbitrary amount using only a constant amount of extra space. 08:18:29 ilowry [~user@193.104.181.233] has joined #lisp 08:19:10 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:20:17 beach: why do you need extra space? 08:20:52 jdz: Actually, I don't think that's required. One can do it with three nreverses I think. 08:21:20 i think i have an implementation of this in the clones game 08:21:33 now just have to find the sources 08:21:40 will have to download from my own site :) 08:21:47 jdz: Your implementation is better than using 3 nreverses? 08:22:06 <_3b> swapping N and N+M for every N doesn't work? 08:22:41 What are N and M? 08:22:47 beach: i think i once read a paper or something, and then implemented it 08:23:00 <_3b> N-length of vector, M = rotation amount... i guess stopping at N-M would work better though 08:23:00 beach: i'll paste the code soonish 08:23:05 Thanks. 08:23:42 that's if i'm not mistaken, ofc :) 08:30:02 <_3b> ah, i guess it doesn't quite work 08:30:10 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.17.188.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 08:33:18 loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has joined #lisp 08:33:26 beach: bad luck -- i have found a reference to the function i had in mind, but its use is in comments, and the source i cannot locate at the moment 08:33:35 ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 08:33:39 beach: it's been more than 5 years ago i wrote it 08:33:47 jdz: Don't worry about it. 08:34:07 the point is that shifting was done by clever swapping of elements 08:34:16 rotating i mean 08:35:14 jdz: Anyway, nreversing the first part, then the second part, then the entire thing is amethod that works. 08:36:03 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:36:05 beach: yes, but this method works with no extra space, and is actually very fast (from what i remember); i hope i have not lost the source completely 08:36:31 jdz: The method I cited above works with a single word of extra space. 08:37:13 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:39:13 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 08:39:53 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:52 damn, it seems i have actually lost that piece of code... 08:41:06 oh well, probably should write it anew 08:41:21 jdz: Do you have reasons to believe that I am wrong? 08:41:36 beach: not that you are wrong 08:41:58 beach: just that it can be done more efficiently 08:42:38 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:42:43 beach: your approach has a time complexity of O(2n) 08:43:05 I suppose you could put it that way. 08:43:06 beach: whereas the one i used is O(n) i think 08:43:21 jdz: OK, sounds good. Let me know if you find it again. 08:43:28 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:47:27 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 08:54:21 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:54:58 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 08:56:19 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:38 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-40-198.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:58:04 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-20-3.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:00:04 hello 09:00:41 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 09:04:16 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:04:49 <_3b> beach: http://paste.lisp.org/+2GIE ? 09:06:37 *_3b* thinks that terminates, and only does N-M swaps (N=length, M=rotation % length) 09:08:06 *_3b* needs more sleep though, so the code is a bit ugly :) 09:08:30 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:08:53 -!- darkmag [~vfalico@ip-94-112-36-51.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:09:35 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:10:16 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:12:06 <_3b> actually, i guess it is N swaps (or maybe N-1), not N-M 09:12:38 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 09:13:07 vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:19 <_3b> or mayeb somewhere between the 2, depending on how many common factors N and M have 09:17:27 slash_1 [~unknown@p4FF0A233.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:19:04 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BFD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:19:12 beach: any permutation needs only one element of temporary storage, and if you order the permutations right, only one read and one write of each changed slot. 09:20:32 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 09:20:47 beach: have a look at: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/interleave/ for an example for specific permutations. However, generating the permutation plan may require more work, so it'll probably work only if N and M are known at compilation time. 09:22:29 spinlock [~spinlock@208.80.69.244] has joined #lisp 09:22:29 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:22:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.135.207.151] has joined #lisp 09:24:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.135.207.151] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:24:41 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@89.135.207.151] has joined #lisp 09:24:42 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 09:24:54 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:29:11 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-40-198.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:29:47 pjb: I see, yes. Thanks. 09:30:14 pjb: In this case the permutation has some structure that might be possible to exploit. 09:31:04 _3b: I'll have a look. Thanks! 09:32:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:34:40 <_3b> beach: probably could get rid of some of the MODs with an iterative version too 09:35:04 Yeah, probably. 09:38:56 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:42:34 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 09:42:50 hello lispers 09:44:57 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-128-50.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:46:20 hello 09:47:18 hello beach ! 09:47:25 hello mstevens 09:47:54 298 to go 09:48:16 :D 09:48:17 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:48:32 hello jdz 09:48:32 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-552-1-51-108.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:48:34 :P 09:48:52 you're scaring people away 09:49:02 ok I stop then :) 09:49:40 I've just discovered the existence of yasnippet 09:50:32 I'm very excited about it, i think I'm going to develop something like COR (CLAW on Rails) 09:51:34 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:51:59 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-27.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:54:04 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:00:42 -!- ilowry [~user@193.104.181.233] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:02:47 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:04:48 -!- beach` is now known as beach 10:06:30 pjb: Oh, it gets messy when the rotation amount and the vector length are not mutually prime. 10:08:24 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 10:09:37 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:12:39 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:12:43 freik [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:13:55 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:12 navigator [~navigator@p548928AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:31 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 10:29:39 Blkt [~user@net-93-151-225-193.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 10:38:10 good day everyone 10:42:26 faux [~user@95.209.183.177.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 10:43:48 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:46:27 Does cffi contain a function which is equivalent to SAP- on SBCL? (Return the byte offset between two pointers) 10:48:51 xan_ [~xan@46.204.192.61.tokyo.bflets.alpha-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:57:58 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-qqbufbymkawhfuzo] has left #lisp 11:00:01 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.198.7.homesurf.thn-ag3.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:50 -!- aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:08:50 tcr: (- (pointer-address x) (pointer-address y)) 11:09:11 emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 11:09:11 -!- emma [~em@user-0ccem2q.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 11:09:11 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 11:09:14 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 11:11:10 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-208.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:14 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 11:11:34 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:12:15 beach: yes, in that case you have several circuits... 11:14:45 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:18:41 aoh [~aki@80.75.102.51] has joined #lisp 11:20:02 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:20:03 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:22:43 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 11:25:58 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:26:33 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@219.237.162.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:29:51 aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:38:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.135.207.151] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:38:26 attila_lendvai1 [~attila_le@89.135.207.151] has joined #lisp 11:38:27 -!- attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 11:41:36 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:42:39 sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has joined #lisp 11:43:57 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:46:36 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:48:43 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:07 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [] 11:53:03 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:59:45 revel0___ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:59:58 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:00:28 H4ns [~user@p579F8C49.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:29 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:02:40 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:03:19 ohih0wru [ohih0wru@78.84.165.226] has joined #lisp 12:05:01 -!- metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has quit [Quit:  In our sky there is no limits, and masters we have none; heavy metal is the only one! ] 12:09:24 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 12:09:51 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:13:28 HG` [~HG@xdslec172.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:17:18 Bronsa [~bronsa@host86-185-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:18:44 -!- freik [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 12:26:06 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:24 maus [~maus@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:36 Good afternoon! 12:27:58 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-hdiccptmhbpctish] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:28:24 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mjiwpbbletxdqdrf] has joined #lisp 12:28:58 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 12:37:04 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-208.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 12:37:35 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@12.0.194.4] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:38:23 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:39:55 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:41:09 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:41:37 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-17-23-38.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:44:03 urandom__ [~user@p548A4731.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:53 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-208.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:44 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 12:49:50 hello maus 12:50:04 hello beach! :) 12:50:19 beach: how are you doing? :) 12:53:07 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-15-149.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:56:27 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:00:16 maus: Fine! What about you? It's getting cold in the morning isn't it? 13:00:55 -!- Davsebamse [~davse@82.103.143.161] has left #lisp 13:01:31 beach: thank you! :) I'm fine too. Yes, in the morning, it's quite cold! I love it very much, the air is so fresh! :) 13:02:00 -!- Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:02:11 Oh, good. I was afraid it made you want to leave Europe. 13:03:02 beach: hehehe.. I love everything here! :) 13:03:22 Excellent! Even the strikes and the "manifs"? 13:05:09 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:05:22 beach: I'm sorry.. I don't understand what you mean.. :) Can you explain me more details? 13:05:35 swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has joined #lisp 13:06:26 beach: you meant the strikes which happened some days ago? 13:06:55 maus: a strike is when people quit working so you sometimes can't get to work, and a "manif" is an abbreviation for "manifestation" which in English would be "demonstration" which typically accompany strikes, and constists of thousands of people marching with signs saying the equivalent of "down with the government". 13:07:00 yes. 13:09:13 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 13:09:20 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:32 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:09:34 beach: ah, It was lucky to us, we still could take a bus to school in that day.. The bus was crowded but it's fine :) 13:10:02 -!- boaz_ [~boaz@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:30 maus: Don't worry, there will probably be others before you leave. France is famous for them. 13:10:49 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 13:11:30 beach: ah, I also was told that about France :) 13:14:34 beach: I was told one or two years ago, there was a terrible one. A person in our lab told that he could not buy anything in the supermarket because of the interruption of transportation. 13:15:48 maus: That's a bit exaggerated. Parisians are very resourceful. They bicycle, or hitchhike. 13:16:02 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@66.220.12.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:16:38 regarding buying anything in france, I'm still laughing whenever I recall a sign outisde Calais - "Non-Stop shop, from 7 till 23" 13:17:21 -!- sie is now known as ij 13:17:25 beach: ah, I see. :) 13:17:26 and manifs are fun. We nearly stormed ministry of education in Poland once ^_^ 13:18:52 p_l: The French have some interesting techniques, such as throwing dead sheep into the court yard of the ministry of agriculture, or dirty baby diapers into the ministry of family affairs. Sometimes they put up a brick wall during the night so that the mayor can't get into the office in the morning. 13:19:15 (because a fundie got placed as minister of education - the only nice idea of his was uniforms, IMHO, and even that was flawed, as it was for primary and middle school instead of high school, when we can appreciate the view...) 13:19:35 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@p4FF0A233.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:19:45 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 13:19:48 I see. 13:20:09 davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:19 in poland we have a long tradition of political satire in all kinds of media, though (necessary due to censorship during communist times) 13:20:51 Nice! (the tradition) 13:22:16 yeah. For example, The Witcher (a PC game based on the novels) in polish version definitely didn't hide what the makers thought of then-current government :D 13:22:27 down to direct quotes used 13:22:50 Wow! That's a good one! 13:23:12 i've heard the game is good 13:23:13 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:23:16 have not played, though 13:23:21 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:24 (good game => good exposition) 13:23:25 luis: ping 13:23:28 -!- revel0___ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:23:48 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:52 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A4731.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:56 urandom_ [~user@p548A4731.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:30 fe[nl]ix: pong 13:24:42 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 13:24:45 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:25:56 luis: I'm working on https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/622339 13:27:39 revel0___ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:28:52 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-mjiwpbbletxdqdrf] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:29:14 the problem is that ccl::foreign-type-alignment returns an incorrect value 13:29:28 or maybe just unsuitable for structs 13:30:46 beach: if only they were saying "down with the government". Unfortunately, that's not what they want. On the contrary, they want more government, more taxes (from others) and more subsides (for themselves). 13:30:50 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:31:06 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A233.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:08 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-irtsotfphqkendny] has joined #lisp 13:31:32 luis: got any ideas ? 13:31:33 jdz: there's issue of the english translation being much worse than the original text 13:32:00 p_l: oh noes, somebody set us up a bomb! 13:32:54 fe[nl]ix: this has happened in the past already, let me check something. 13:33:06 yes, there's a comment in the code 13:33:20 http://clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2005-June/002777.html 13:34:39 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:43 however, the difference between "natural" alignment and "embedding" alignment only exists on Darwin/PPC - because it's the same rules used by AIX/PPC) 13:35:14 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.124] has joined #lisp 13:35:29 pjb: I was making a pedagogical simplification, so that it would fit in this space! :) 13:36:07 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 13:36:22 Interesting observation: in most implementations, things like LENGTH and COUNT must return fixnums. 13:36:38 fe[nl]ix: anyway, %foreign-type-alignment should return the embedding alignment. 13:36:48 -!- ohih0wru [ohih0wru@78.84.165.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:37:09 fe[nl]ix: cffi-sbcl's %foreign-type-alignment makes a similar fixup. 13:39:49 jdz: more like the translation is, let's say, culled. It was partially necessary due to how much is lost in translation, and partially in order to get the game through USA's rating scheme 13:40:25 luis: but in that case that fixup is wrong, because OSX uses the IA32 ABI on x86_64, where double & co. have a natural alignment of 4 13:40:37 drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 13:40:39 luis: see http://personal.denison.edu/~bressoud/cs281-s07/MacOSXLowLevelABI.pdf 13:40:45 p_l: it's quite often that stuff is lost in the translation 13:40:52 luis: page 43 13:40:58 the original was very much in spirit of the books, which aren't really "rated" in poland (there's the "don't sell to minors" thing on hardcore stuff, but that's all) 13:41:15 p_l: or dubbing, for that matter 13:41:30 and I find polish to be much more expressive than english (and that more complex and hard to learn) 13:42:03 well, i only know russian 13:42:11 not polish, that is 13:42:19 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:42:42 that should be as expressive as polish 13:43:02 jdz: russian is close enough to polish (there even exists a common subset/variant that bridges polish, russian and czech, and orthodox church still uses basically a very old common language from which those three evolved) 13:43:24 p_l: oh, that i did not know 13:44:18 anyway, we need to find how it relates to lisp, or we will get kicked 13:44:33 haha, true. Well, beach had been working on translating CLIM/CL :) 13:44:54 into what? 13:45:24 jdz: different spoken languages 13:45:32 luis: or maybe not, I'm confused 13:45:40 i.e. a better way than gettext and their ilk to translate programs 13:45:58 oh, internationalization and localization 13:46:11 When running SLIME i'm just not getting the *slime-repl* buffer, just the *inferior-lisp* one, does anyone know why that might be? (I'm on OS X, emacs and slime installed through macports) 13:46:15 that'd be i18n and l10n? 13:46:27 though I admit I'm against translating computer languages... it's been bad enough having to deal with Pascal and Logo that someone decided to "fully translate", including keywords and symbols 13:46:36 i'm sure i have seen m17n or somesuch with 17 in the word, know what that is? 13:46:54 multinationalization? 13:46:56 drdo: you need to use (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) in your slime config instead of just (slime-setup) 13:46:58 *Xach* counts letters 13:47:14 *sellout* was thinking monetization, but it's not long enough ;) 13:47:19 -!- davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:47:47 p_l: is that new? I've ran slime on plenty of machines without that 13:47:52 Multilingualization 13:48:13 that probably is something what beach's been doing 13:48:27 Xach: yes, that sounds like it 13:48:34 drdo: it's been for a year now, I think 13:48:43 Well it did work, thanks a lot :) 13:49:00 drdo: slime-fancy is a set of contribs that brings all the commonly used stuff 13:49:07 look into contrib directory to learn more 13:49:31 fe[nl]ix: well, the fixup I mentioned is darwin-only. My point is we could make a similar one for CCL and/or report the bug (if it is a bug) to the clozure list. 13:49:42 I've never really gone into much detail with SLIME, i just thought that this was the default mode 13:49:47 fe[nl]ix: re bug #622325, I'll see if I can find the patch. :) 13:50:07 Adrinael [~adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 13:50:52 the www.m17n.org site does not quite explain what it is about, though 13:52:20 slime-repl is the contrib that gives the repl, if you don't the other fancy stuff. 13:53:52 yay, bring in character-properties back: http://www.m17n.org/m17n-lib-en/mtext.html 13:55:05 character attributes, that is 13:55:26 as per 13.1.3 13:56:28 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:58:53 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:00:04 -!- pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:00:09 pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 14:00:09 -!- pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Changing host] 14:00:09 pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 14:01:08 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Exeunt IRC] 14:02:09 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-84-132.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:02:15 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-84-132.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:52 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-194-233.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:05:04 blandest [~user@89.122.117.70] has joined #lisp 14:07:47 -!- HG` [~HG@xdslec172.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:10:17 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:10:42 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:11:43 Dranik [~dim@prometey.bsuir.by] has joined #lisp 14:11:49 loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has joined #lisp 14:14:12 -!- Dranik [~dim@prometey.bsuir.by] has quit [Quit:     (xchat 2.4.5  )] 14:19:39 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:20:59 yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has joined #lisp 14:21:31 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:43 sabalaba [~sabalaba@114.240.83.173] has joined #lisp 14:22:08 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-irtsotfphqkendny] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:23:22 Hmm, I can't figure out how to check out http://bywicket.codebasehq.com/xg/folio via hg. Can you tell me how to do it? 14:23:34 I think I'm missing something obvious. 14:24:10 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:24:52 I'm getting 406 errors 14:25:33 perhaps he didn't enable anonymous checkouts 14:25:47 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:26:47 Well, that is the URL for the project. I think maybe there is some other way to check it out? 14:26:51 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host86-185-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:28:20 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@114.240.83.173] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:28:22 sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@114.240.83.173] has joined #lisp 14:28:22 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:29:28 -!- sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@114.240.83.173] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:30:37 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #lisp 14:32:34 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:26 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:35:41 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:07 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-151-225-193.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:40:02 hey, is there a way to change the value of a slot with :allocation :class without having any specific instance? 14:40:54 Dodek: possible, but not in a portable (i.e. mopless) fashion 14:42:10 i use closer-mop anyway, so that's not a problem 14:43:34 Dodek: ok, so you're all set. :) 14:43:40 -!- faux [~user@95.209.183.177.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:48 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-76.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:44:20 H4ns, so, how does one do that? 14:44:38 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-139-149.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:41 Dodek: one navigates through the slots of the class, finding the one that one is interested in. 14:44:52 -!- lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has quit [Quit: Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net.] 14:44:57 lisppaste [~lisppaste@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:06 Dodek: but i'd have to go look in the amop. i'd avoid doing it altogether 14:45:15 Dodek: use a simple special variable instead. 14:46:05 H4ns, i'd need to have one special variable per class 14:46:24 not that there will be many of them, i just don't feel it to be the right way. 14:46:40 Dodek: :allocation :class is probably not what you want, then 14:46:45 H4ns: what would be the problem in accessing a slot in the class directly? 14:46:51 Dodek: changing the value of a class-allocated slot without having an instance is not the right way to do anything in clos. 14:46:55 pmd: the slots is not in the class 14:46:56 you can store the value on the property list of class name 14:47:15 pmd: :class slots are shared between instances -- but it's not in the class 14:47:20 <_8david> Dodek: you can use the CLASS-PROTOTYPE for that purpose 14:47:28 mmhh. 14:47:35 or you can add the slot to the actual class 14:47:43 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:57 nikodemus: i know 14:48:08 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:48:09 (hence Dodek's question) 14:48:09 hm, using class name's property list does not seem so bad idea 14:48:10 or not have tho slot altogether, just the accessor 14:48:25 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:48:42 or use a non-standard metaclass. 14:48:44 Dodek: what is it you want to do? 14:49:07 i mean, what is it you are trying to model 14:49:14 jdz, i'm building some kind of asynchronous reactor system 14:49:18 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:49:25 and i want to map my hooks to cl-irc hooks 14:49:56 the mapping is made on a class, not instance basis 14:50:12 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:50:53 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-202-240.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:51:10 so, you want to store hooks for class? 14:51:18 yeah. 14:51:21 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-202-240.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:37 and when you have instances, what do they do with the hooks? 14:51:59 do you mean cl-irc hooks or my system's hooks? 14:52:16 well, whatever hooks you're storing in the :allocation class solts 14:53:11 Dodek: the per-class hook configuration changes at run time? 14:53:14 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.17.188.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 14:53:16 i was going to store mappings in there, and as the irc connection was to be made, i wanted create irc hooks so that they call my hooks. 14:53:24 -!- risent [~risent@122.85.14.198] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:54:17 the irc hooks have to be set up after the irc connection is created 14:54:20 Dodek: http://paste.lisp.org/display/114716 14:54:39 nikodemus: ! 14:54:54 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:54:54 ? 14:55:27 nikodemus: i like that 14:55:28 nikodemus, this seems like a good idea, thank you. 14:55:49 Dodek: you could also make the hooks be methods and use change-class 14:56:10 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56:58 carlocci [~nes@93.37.215.20] has joined #lisp 14:57:11 H4ns, the hooks in my system are indeed methods 14:57:45 (defgeneric call-reactor-hook (reactor hook args)) 14:57:47 <_8david> nikodemus: so what's the main difference between the REACTOR-CLASS metaclass and an ALLOCATION :CLASS slot? Looks to me like a difference in inheritance. 14:57:48 Dodek: so why do you need to store the hooks in slots? that'd be useful if the hook configuration changes dynamically, at run time. 14:57:56 the hook is dispatched via the eql specifier 14:58:02 <_8david> IIANM, an :allocation :class slot declared in the superclass belongs to that superclass. For a subclass of a reactor-class, it's either got its own slot or none, depending on whether it's a reactor-class, too. 14:58:15 H4ns, there are two types of hooks, mine and the cl-irc ones 14:58:43 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:58:51 H4ns, to set up the cl-irc hook, i need to call add-hook with connection, message class and function argument 14:58:55 are there any good reads on strategies to deal with compiling small lisp binaries even in the presence of a full eval? 14:59:24 H4ns, and this is obviously impossible to do it before the connection is made 14:59:24 Dodek: ah, ok. 15:01:03 sykopomp: It seems you would have to include the entire language, so it is not possible to make any savings there. 15:01:04 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:01:14 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:01:34 beach: is that the only choice? That doesn't fare well for fexprs :\ 15:01:58 _8david: unless there is an additional validate-superclass method all subclasses of foo-reactor have the metaclass reactor-class 15:02:15 (must have, that is) 15:02:32 and they have their own slots, yes 15:02:48 sykopomp: But it would be interesting to see how much you can factor the entire language, especially if you don't care about performance. 15:03:43 beach: well, I do care about performance quite a bit. :\ 15:04:57 I can sort of see a strategy for dealing with them where you can dump a binary with precompiled FEXPRs, and if they all succeed (meaning, if the compiler was able to figure them all out), dump a binary without any sort of evaluator... but that seems incredibly user-unfriendly to me. 15:05:42 put the eval in libyourcl.so? 15:06:07 sykopomp, you can go the ECL way and move the compiler into a .so that you load on demand. 15:06:35 (what nikodemus said) 15:06:50 (require :cmp) 15:07:04 sykopomp: How would the compiler be able to figure out that eval is not needed? 15:07:39 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:08:30 beach: besides magic? Some convoluted way of marking every FEXPR it runs into, and keeping track of whether all of them were successfully expanded at compiletime. If you know that, and you know there's no other uses of eval anywhere else in the code, you know you can just dump the evaluator, no? 15:08:31 because no one references any of eval, find-symbol or intern. 15:09:03 one big idea if you want to subset cl for better modular compilation is to prohibit (funcall 'foo) -- if you want to go by name, you must go by (funcall (fdefinition 'foo) ...) 15:09:54 nikodemus: why does that make such a big difference? 15:09:58 then only EVAL, COMPILE, and FDEFINITION are the places that can introduce arbitrary evaluation 15:10:13 (funcall (find-symbol (reverse "LAVE") :cl) '(+ 3 4)) 15:10:26 exactly what beach says 15:10:38 ah 15:10:58 scheme has this right, imo. (funcall 'foo) is a stupid convenience with little to recommend to it, imo 15:12:15 beach, nikodemus: how is that different from (funcall (fdefinition (find-symbol (reverse "LAVE") :cl)) '(+ 3 4))? 15:12:26 it also introduces a lot of unnecessary hair all over the spec: function vs. function designator vs. extended function designator 15:12:32 jdz: I was just going to ask nikodemus about that. 15:12:51 Fare: you can make your eval.so lazy loaded by a stub function 15:13:03 nikodemus: or did you mean FUNCTION? 15:13:08 nope 15:13:48 here is another: (read-from-string "#.(print 234)") 15:14:16 when you see a call to FDEFINITION, you treat it like you would a call to eval: it becomes the users responsibility to make sure the relevant definitions are available at runtime 15:14:33 let's not go into #. :) 15:14:46 I thought it was fun. :) 15:14:59 i meant, beach: you can have your libeval.so lazy loaded by a stub function 15:15:17 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 15:15:23 billitch: Me? I am not the want wanting this. 15:15:36 billitch: I don't care how big my binaries are. 15:15:36 this way you need to document only a few operators, and the system can easily give feedback to users trying to do things that work against their goal of delivering a small executable (or whatever) 15:16:09 the eval.so strategy seems to at least partly defeat the purpose of wanting to distribute small binaries with the runtime included -- it's kinda like requiring people to install GHC just to use xmonad. 15:16:19 er sykopomp, sorry =) 15:16:46 and then you can do the implicit phasing thing and get dependencies right automagically -- extra specs needed only for things you want to EVAL, COMPILE calls to, or use with FDEFINITION 15:16:59 ok, so no eval, no find-symbol, no intern, no reference to *read-eval*, which is initially nil. 15:17:20 no fdefinition? 15:17:27 no reference to load or compile or compile-file either 15:17:33 fdefinition is OK 15:17:38 No (SETF SYMBOL-VALUE), then, Fare. 15:17:51 Riastradh, why does that matter? 15:18:13 (setf (symbol-value (read-from-string "*read-eval*")) t) 15:18:39 brown [~user@nat/google/x-gqjfdhayarozpxwq] has joined #lisp 15:18:58 -!- navigator [~navigator@p548928AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:19:04 ok, no READ or READ-FROM-STRING or READ-PRESERVING-WHITESPACE 15:19:11 -!- brown is now known as Guest50706 15:19:19 let's just leave LAMBDA 15:19:23 -!- Guest50706 is now known as reb 15:19:25 This is getting amusing. 15:19:49 OK, then. (with-package-iterator ...blah blah (if (string= symbol "*read-eval*") (setf (symbol-value symbol) t)) ...) 15:19:53 translation: "haha, no. You're not going to dump a lisp without the compiler, sorry." 15:20:21 stassats: LAMBDA is compiled, though. If you can't evaluate arbitrary code, you can't trigger compilation again, no? 15:20:29 No FIND-PACKAGE or SYMBOL-PACKAGE? 15:20:40 or forbid package iterators on locked packages. 15:20:52 or package iterators at all 15:21:01 sykopomp: you compile it at compile time 15:21:19 right, so we can keep LAMBDA 15:21:28 Fare: no LOOP, then. 15:21:32 (ugh) 15:21:37 sykopomp: and remove everything else 15:22:20 sykopomp, or a crippled loop 15:22:34 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:59 hopefully you can statically check that you never loop over unwanted packages. 15:23:13 How about just replacing it by Scheme, using, say, the Scheme48 or Racket module language, in which a program can't reflect on its lexical environment without such reflection being statically apparent? 15:23:28 *Riastradh* runs away. 15:23:35 or just put the "magic" symbols on one protected page. If you trip it, you get a condition. 15:23:55 Riastradh: no, the source should be first translated into Haskell, and then you get all the staticity you want 15:24:29 *Xach* feels the thrill and excitement for today's Boston Lisp Meeting 15:24:37 Would having a "binary dumping mode" where you get helpful compiler warnings about what is preventing you from shedding the compiler/interpreter be too much trouble? (both for the implementer and the user) 15:24:56 Xach: you mean, pure functional data structures in Typed Racket? 15:25:11 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:25:31 Fare: exactly 15:26:43 -!- revel0___ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:14 -!- blandest [~user@89.122.117.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:30:33 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:30:58 Xach: at the end of the page http://www.xach.com/lisp/zcdb/ 15:31:08 Xach: "If you have any questions or comments about ZS3, please email me, " ... 15:31:15 Xach: ZS3 ? 15:31:26 Xach: perhaps it s zcdb/ 15:33:00 sykopomp: are you implementing CL, or something *like* CL? 15:34:42 BrianRice` [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:44 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:34:46 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 15:35:07 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35:16 if the latter, you really _really_ want to read some of the scheme module system papers. particularly "Implicit Phasing for R6RS Libraries" -- reading some of the earlier ones is good for understanding, but that is the paper you want, i think 15:35:45 nikodemus: I'm playing with a CL-like toy lisp, and I've been curious about playing with FEXPRs after reading the kernel report. 15:36:51 I've read the PLT/Racket paper on phased compilation. I'll try and grab this one, though. 15:37:43 racket does implicit phasing, doesn't it? 15:38:27 Not sure if it's implicit. I thought you needed to use require-for-syntax or something. 15:39:11 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-249-112.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:39:24 ok 15:39:48 anyway, my big concern is that these developments with phasing may not really apply to languages that use fexprs instead of macros since, semantically, there's no real separation between phases where you generate and evaluate new code (although, in practice, it may still be there?) 15:39:49 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:40:03 nikodemus: paper is downloaded and queued though, thank you. 15:40:29 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-76.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:17 timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.234] has joined #lisp 15:45:07 sykopomp, john shutt is the world specialist on FEXPR 15:47:19 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 15:47:57 Fare: I haven't really found much as far as implementation of them goes. I've been reading the Kernel report, though. 15:48:30 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-139-27.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:48:47 I can't say I understand the document well enough yet, I guess. I'll probably have to read it a couple of times. 15:50:46 I am trying to read from /dev/midi in SBCL, but it seems to buffer the input so that my program doesn see the input immediately. What could make that happen, and is there a way to avoid it? 15:52:22 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:52:34 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:53:34 beach: No way to turn off the buffering? 15:53:46 rtoym: I don't know. Is there? 15:54:30 Cmucl has a buffering slot in a stream, but I'm not sure how to set that other than changing the slot after creating the stream. 15:54:38 beach: use iolib? CLHS doesn't cover necessary interfaces, but you can definitely use sb-posix:open/read/write/close etc. 15:54:51 beach: sbcl insists that stuff open as files is to be buffered by 4KB 15:55:02 beach: use iolib to open your damn file. 15:55:03 you need to call open with O_DIRECT flag 15:55:20 OK, thanks everyone. 15:55:22 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-208.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 15:55:53 fatblueduck [~user@rrcs-67-52-188-98.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:01 when talking to sbcl through a named pipe, xcvb pads all its requests to the next 4KB boundary to avoid stalling. 15:56:04 mhd [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:04 sad. 15:56:32 if you know how to disable buffering in sbcl, tell me. 15:57:07 (sb-sys:make-fd-stream fd :buffering nil) 15:57:15 Is it only with named pipes? I've used regular pipes with cmucl. 15:57:17 s/nil/:none/ 15:59:31 stassats: Any decision on cmucl char completion for slime? 16:00:46 ok, i'll commit now, without old versions support 16:02:38 l_a_m: that is a Known Issue 16:03:38 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:03:39 Xach: ok 16:04:24 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:04:31 stassats: That works. I just use make-fd-stream on the file descriptor of the buffered stream. 16:05:29 i'd be good for OPEN to accept a non-standard :buffering keyword 16:05:40 yeah. 16:05:49 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #lisp 16:06:11 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:06:13 Now I need to find out how to use select on such a thing. 16:06:49 SBCL has serve-event 16:08:36 ephcon [~ephcon@student164-230.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 16:10:05 Fare: if you have a handy test-case, please report it on the launchpad 16:10:31 sorry, I lost the context. Test case for what? 16:10:46 for the 4KB thingie? 16:10:48 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:10:50 yep 16:11:14 oh. My test case is quite big so far. 16:11:21 because what you describe is not something i would expect 16:12:10 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:12:45 stassats: Hmm, right. Then again, I might just use threads. 16:12:56 refill-input-buffer does (well, except in the bleeding edge, but nevermind that) a select() to check that there is something to read, and then a single read() _upto_ 4Kb -- but if read() returns less, no further waiting or reading is done untill the input buffer is emptied again 16:13:00 no time to reduce it today, but the idea is simple: in one terminal, launch an SBCL, open a named pipe, read-eval-print from it. In the other terminal, cat into the pipe, type a form. 16:13:34 SBCL won't actually eval and print until you either close the pipe or fill at least 4KB worth of it. 16:13:49 doesn't match my experience at all 16:14:20 i just yesterday did testing with a named pipe, can, and sbcl < mypipe 16:14:27 s/can/cat/ 16:14:34 so a test-case would really be good 16:14:55 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:14:58 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:09 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:15:14 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:15:24 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:16:06 nikodemus: maybe Fare was using (with-open-file (f "a-named-pipe") (loop (print (eval (read f))))) 16:16:44 sbcl might behave differently on stdin 16:16:51 could very well be 16:17:05 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:17:47 nikodemus, paste or bug? 16:18:04 either is fine 16:18:07 I apparently already had most of a test case from back when I was trying to figure things out 16:18:26 whatever is more convenient for you 16:19:07 -!- drdo [~user@98.192.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19:44 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-70-212.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:23:17 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.124] has joined #lisp 16:23:25 -!- maus [~maus@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Bye bye!] 16:23:47 https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/643686 16:24:25 Why does (functionp #'and) return T but (apply #'and lst) give "the function AND is undefined"? 16:24:29 thanks! 16:24:49 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:24:50 Quadrescence, it's a macro, not a function. 16:24:50 Quadrescence: AND is not a function. 16:24:55 #'and is suspect. 16:25:07 probably not portable, either. 16:25:13 I was pretty sure AND was a macro 16:25:51 "Specifically, it is an error to use function on a symbol that denotes a macro or special form. An implementation may choose not to signal this error for performance reasons" 16:26:21 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 16:26:34 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student164-230.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:26:47 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 16:27:14 What is the correct way to do what I'm doing? (I assume you can interpret what I'm doing okay) 16:27:24 Quadrescence: EVERY 16:27:33 (every #'identity list) 16:27:44 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:51 Ah! Every. I looked for "any" "all" "each" 16:28:06 maybe ALEXANDRIA:CONJOIN, too? 16:28:28 It's been a while (since I used CL). Too much Scheme. 16:29:10 -!- yakov [~yzaytsev@183.49.62.92.nienschanz.ru] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:29:34 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:30:13 -!- vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:30:19 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:31:08 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:31:35 -!- swilde [~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:35:29 you need Clispy, the helpful CL assistant. "It looks like you're trying to apply AND. Would you like some help?" 16:37:05 hah 16:37:11 haha 16:38:03 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:40:26 haha 16:44:38 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:47:05 ephcon [~ephcon@student164-191.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 16:51:01 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:48 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:05 -!- loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:13 DeadPanda` [~Brett@host86-159-93-172.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:23 -!- rsynnott [rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:29 -!- sepp2k [~sexy@p548CBD01.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: sepp2k] 16:54:15 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student164-191.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:01:19 pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.137] has joined #lisp 17:03:48 josemanuel [~josemanue@31.252.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:05:22 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:07:49 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:35 splittist [~dmurray@23-244.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:08:38 morning all 17:09:19 lo 17:09:52 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A4731.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:10:35 srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 17:10:42 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:11:52 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-46-1.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 17:13:09 -!- xan_ [~xan@46.204.192.61.tokyo.bflets.alpha-net.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:15:23 -!- timepilot [~timepilot@66.71.230.234] has quit [Quit: timepilot] 17:19:18 -!- delYsid [~user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:25:19 symbole [~user@216.214.176.130] has joined #lisp 17:25:23 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-12-108.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:29 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-221-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:25:43 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:25:48 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 17:25:58 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:58 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:25:58 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 17:26:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@89.135.207.151] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:26:19 -!- powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-49-12-108.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:27:06 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b31:c6c:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 17:27:17 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b31:c6c:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has left #lisp 17:30:52 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:35:01 Fare: the issue is with external-format stuff being greedy 17:36:39 i have fix, but need to build a test-case and check that it doesn't ruin the performance 17:36:44 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 17:42:23 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-37-238-79.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 17:42:55 tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has joined #lisp 17:45:28 redline6561 [~redline@64.238.98.14] has joined #lisp 17:48:16 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 17:50:33 -!- splittist [~dmurray@23-244.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: ETOOMUCHSIGNAL] 17:50:37 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:53:08 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-122-77.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:53:21 ephcon [~ephcon@student164-191.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 17:55:34 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7fpwmQWCkA 17:55:36 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 17:55:55 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56:17 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 17:58:31 urandom_ [~user@p548A459A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:25 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-70-212.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 18:00:35 gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:02 merijn [~merijn@inconsistent.nl] has joined #lisp 18:03:19 WinAthas [~Athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 18:04:12 foom: heh 18:04:52 gonzojive [~red@171.66.50.41] has joined #lisp 18:05:31 A thought occurs to me, +, -, * and / taking an arbitrary number of arguments is identical to the behavior of folding said operators over a list where the first argument value is used as the start value, no? 18:06:10 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student164-191.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:06:11 merijn: right. 18:07:04 merijn: I don't think so. 18:07:06 only that arbitrary number of arguments is limited by call-arguments-limit 18:07:08 it's not identical. 18:07:14 what stassats said. 18:07:22 AFAIK, implementations of these operators may choose to apply their parameter in any order. 18:07:56 eg. an implementation could sort out the parameters per type, to do conversions only on one parameter of each type. 18:07:57 pjb: Is that relevant? They still need to be evaluated left-to-right. 18:09:17 This is irrelevant to the question. Folding also get the arguments evaluated. But folding will have to apply (op (op (op (op a b) c) d) e), while op could do (op (coerce (op a d) result-type) (coerce (op b e) result-type) c). 18:10:02 ah, I see what you mean. 18:10:15 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-gqjfdhayarozpxwq] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:30 so that could result in, what? Precision variations for having converted ints/reals to floats in a funny order? 18:10:38 Yes. 18:10:44 gotcha 18:11:41 clhs 12.1.1.1 18:11:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_aaa.htm 18:12:10 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.50.41] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 18:12:22 In other words, the usual "all bets are off when working with floats" disclaimer is in force :p 18:12:36 -!- WinAthas [~Athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:13:28 -!- redline6561 [~redline@64.238.98.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:15:45 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:15 araujo [~araujo@190.199.102.96] has joined #lisp 18:16:15 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.199.102.96] has quit [Changing host] 18:16:15 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:16:54 I wonder if there's other cases where order of coercion might affect the results. 18:17:57 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:18:50 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.182.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:20:31 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.200.183] has joined #lisp 18:22:54 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 18:26:48 gonzojive [~red@171.66.50.41] has joined #lisp 18:29:36 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:34:12 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 18:34:43 -!- DeadPanda` [~Brett@host86-159-93-172.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:36:03 jga [~gajon@189.253.104.190] has joined #lisp 18:36:18 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:36:58 brown [~user@nat/google/x-ydxtkztgeqmsahkf] has joined #lisp 18:37:07 -!- brown is now known as reb 18:38:24 Good evening everyone! 18:39:40 hello again, beach :) 18:42:43 DeadPanda` [~Brett@host86-159-93-172.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:43:40 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@31.252.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:46:23 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.200.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:47:17 Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #lisp 18:47:41 Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:41 -!- ij is now known as sierinjs 18:47:41 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@c-69-136-200-213.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:47:41 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 18:47:53 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.59.116] has joined #lisp 18:53:00 aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:53:36 -!- DeadPanda` [~Brett@host86-159-93-172.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:54:18 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:58:24 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-9-211.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:58:50 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B326605.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:51 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:00:23 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B327910.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:00:33 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-246-9-211.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:51 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:05:08 darkmag [~vfalico@ip-94-112-36-51.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 19:08:19 Bronsa [~bronsa@host86-185-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 19:08:58 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.50.41] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 19:10:15 loip [~hija@78.38.57.194] has joined #lisp 19:10:22 -!- pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:10:59 -!- loip [~hija@78.38.57.194] has left #lisp 19:11:05 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@12.43.172.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:13:14 -!- sierinjs is now known as Mion 19:13:21 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:23 -!- Mion is now known as sierinjs 19:15:01 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:21:32 Dranik [~dim@178.168.248.252] has joined #lisp 19:25:13 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:32:17 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:34:32 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:36:57 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-240.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:33 homie` [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-240.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:58 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-84-132.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:39:33 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-84-132.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:45:05 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.198.7.homesurf.thn-ag3.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:46:48 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:48:19 -!- Dranik [~dim@178.168.248.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51:40 Does ABCL read any init file on startup? 19:53:58 -!- benny [~user@i577A7AD3.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:55:29 loip [~hija@78.38.57.194] has joined #lisp 19:55:46 can i ask a question about the clisp program here? 19:55:58 just about debugging 19:56:01 -!- loip [~hija@78.38.57.194] has left #lisp 19:56:34 i want to know how to find what line in the code the syntax error is on.. but it doesn't show me by default 19:56:35 Xach: ~/.abclrc 19:57:07 stassats: thanks. do you know where that is documented? 19:57:36 no, i just looked in the sources 19:57:51 stassats: in which file? 19:57:53 *Xach* also has the sources 19:58:15 src/org/armedbear/lisp/Interpreter.java 19:58:18 thanks 19:58:38 processInitializationFile method 19:59:00 rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:00:06 zaidaus: What does it tell you? The debugger and a stack trace should give some information about where the error is. 20:00:55 *** - +: NIL is not a number 20:01:20 you should use Slime for that, though Clisp debugging isn't that great in Slime 20:01:26 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:01:57 -!- hohum_ is now known as hohum 20:02:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:02:50 http://paste.lisp.org/+2GIV 20:02:54 that's what it says 20:04:23 zaidaus: Enter :h to get some help with the debugger. :b should give some hints on where the problem is. But I don't use clisp much 20:05:21 Er, I think that's :bt, not :b. 20:05:38 ok i'll giv it a go thanks 20:07:28 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:11:45 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:11:56 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A459A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:18:05 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:21 i just build sbcl 1.0.42 and i get "bogus stack frame" with code that works on older version 20:20:04 anyway, what "bogus stack frame" means, inf recursion somewhere ? 20:20:24 hm, not likely 20:20:43 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:21:17 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:22:48 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host86-185-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:23:32 gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.174] has joined #lisp 20:24:58 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:26:10 rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:27:08 benny [~user@i577A8815.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 20:28:16 urandom_ [~user@p548A39F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:13 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:33:49 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-33-245.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:34:11 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:34:55 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:26 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 20:36:10 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo3.23.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:06 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:07 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-32-82-254-1-149.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:42:46 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-249-112.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 20:44:16 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 20:47:24 drewc: any reasons *not* to use UCW as is? 20:48:02 (given that there is LOL and then your new unreleased code?) 20:49:53 p_l: no good ones, if you need what UCW has to offer. LoL currently uses UCW for its display code, and my new unreleased code is, well, unreleased. 20:50:18 heh 20:50:22 If you don't need components and continuations, then my new code is actually available to those who want to try it. 20:50:35 *p_l* still doesn't know if it will be done in Lisp, though 20:51:04 (continuations are coming soon, just haven't integrated them. components ala ucw could be made to work as well) 20:51:10 it should be done in lisp 20:51:12 drewc: oh, gimme! (^_-) I don't really care about continuations, and I can deal with lack of components. 20:51:25 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:30 Fade: you have a repo with working examples somewhere, non? 20:52:08 drewc: there's an issue of "Bus contact of 4th degree" protection 20:52:29 (aka "developer hit by bus") 20:52:38 p_l: i have a solution to that problem. 20:52:45 tech.coop 20:52:49 :) 20:52:52 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:52:58 drewc: haha. I'll mention that :) 20:53:14 our crack team of developers is prepared to take over any project at any time... death of developers not required! 20:53:16 A whole-body anti-bus exoskeletal suit! 20:53:54 p_l: mention that, and mention that it will likely be cheaper to do in lisp, and the clients may see the light :P 20:54:16 (assuming it's the kind of thing lisp is good at) 20:54:49 drewc: hmmm... if I wanted to join and move such projects over (basically lessening some administrative burdens for me) would it be possible? Not now, but possibly in future? 20:55:57 indeed, that the kind of thing we do 20:56:11 p_l: there's #tech.coop so as not to bother the kind lispers :) 20:56:48 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:56:58 as for the project, it will be sort of "simple ERP" tailored for the company - right now they've got a mess of PHP code. And I mean *mess*. It's awful but not enough awful to become a Codethulu. 20:57:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:39 i've done many such a thing in lisp. It's a good choice. 20:58:14 drewc: that's why I mentioned it to my client - I'm probably going to end on general retainer contract with them 20:58:53 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.215.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:59:56 wikipedia says "ERP" can stand for "Erotic role-play". What does it mean in this context? :) 21:00:18 Enterprise Resource Planning 21:00:19 Something starting with Enterprise 21:00:23 w00t! 21:00:30 I was right :) 21:00:40 I'm using the term ERP because I can't be arsed to find a correct niche, it's not going to be marketed :P 21:00:58 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-21-82-64-86-102.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:13 gonzojive [~red@171.66.51.129] has joined #lisp 21:03:13 it takes care of keeping track of contracts, work etc. 21:03:21 ah, I see. 21:03:43 what scale is the company you're building this for? 21:03:56 tomorrow I'm going to another site to set up VPN for it 21:04:07 sykopomp: small, specialized technological company 21:06:35 they make various kinds of "plastic" constructions, mainly related to various hydraulics - stuff like parts& coverings for sewage treatment plants, fluid tanks etc. 21:08:37 slash_1 [~unknown@p4FF0B8EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:06 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:09:40 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A233.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:10:31 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:48 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:12:07 I'm also planning at least one "backend" site in Lisp for an android app, and there's my giant "get rich" webapp :P 21:12:47 *sykopomp* wishes his giant "get rich" webapp was up and running by now! 21:12:49 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:43 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:14:19 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:20 *drewc* is working on a 'get comfortable at a relatively relaxed pace' scheme 21:15:30 not as glamorous, to be sure. 21:16:02 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:16:12 drewc: I think that's superior. :) 21:17:13 drewc: due to my past year, I consider such thing "rich" :P 21:17:31 :) 21:17:58 *sykopomp* is still glowing from his recent get-paid-to-lisp day. 21:18:08 can't imagine what it would be like if I were doing this every day :D 21:19:45 sykopomp: I'm trying to make other people lisp and pay me for it :P 21:20:04 well, in the end it's just living, and it ruins you for any other gig really. I don't mind C, but beyond that i couldn't bring myself to work in most other languages. 21:20:05 i'd like get-paid-to-do-whatever-i-want more 21:20:08 (the "get rich" webapp is more of a platform-as-service thing) 21:20:18 stassats: now that sounds like a gig 21:20:26 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:20:30 drewc: I found out quite early that I go mad forced to do PHP 21:20:34 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:20:42 or "normal" websites 21:20:42 drewc: Not even Haskell? 21:20:55 i only manage get-fed part of that equation 21:20:57 PHP makes anyone go mad 21:21:05 merijn: i enjoy playing with Haskell, but i'm not sure i'd actually want to work in it all the time. 21:21:08 it shows in how slow (or rather unexistant) a website I'm supposed to work on happens 21:21:29 sometimes, i want to mutate something, or compile something completely broken to find out where it's broken. 21:21:39 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.51.129] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 21:22:10 I don't mind C, I get lovecraftian with C++, disgusted and covertly slipping other languages with Java, etc. :) 21:22:15 but, if someone offered me Haskell work and i had the time, i'd surely take it. 21:22:47 syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-76.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:00 I like Haskell, but I finally started on a serious attempt to learn Racket today, since Scheme is better at serializing functions and closures for the kind of web stuff I wanna play with. 21:23:10 the other thing is "don't get bored" 21:23:11 because it would still be fun really. I feel the same about C++. There's a while where it's fun because its new and different... then there's a 'oh yeah, i remember that i hate this' moment 21:23:43 I love C, but C++ gives me the heebie-jeebies :x 21:23:47 racket has serializable closures? 21:24:07 i like C for the simple kind of tasks C is good for. 21:24:19 like talking to operating systems written in C 21:24:52 drewc: C++ gave me waking nightmares. I'm not joking. Using it is like dealing with a perversion of a language or watching a trainwreck 21:24:54 drewc: I was told so, and otherwise some other Scheme. Switching from one Scheme to another shouldn't be too huge a jump if what I want isn't possible with Racket 21:25:15 merijn: Racket is its own creature. 21:26:12 that statement strikes me as similar to saying "I'll try Common Lisp first, then switch to Arc if anything goes wrong. Shouldn't be a huge jump." 21:26:13 sykopomp: I've been told yes. But would you recommend a different Scheme? 21:26:15 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:26:24 *p_l* found different scheme variants to be quite different outside of base language 21:26:38 merijn: naturally, I would recommend common lisp ;) 21:27:03 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-85-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:27:05 gonzojive [~red@171.66.51.129] has joined #lisp 21:27:21 merijn: indeed, sbcl can be convinced to serialize closures 21:27:26 *stassats* is happy using Gauche scheme, but that's off-topic 21:27:28 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 21:27:28 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 21:27:28 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 21:27:49 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@p4FF0B8EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:28:14 merijn: http://www.discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/common-cold/closures.lisp 21:28:14 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:28:16 sykopomp: I looked at Common Lisp for a bit, but like a moth to a light I'm attracted to Racket's centralized look :p 21:29:09 Common Lisp makes me feel like I'll be lost wandering in a swamp of almost but not quite similar implementations, compilers and libraries and confusing the hell out of me while I don't even know what's important... 21:29:14 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-46-1.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:29:28 "centralization is distribution" 21:29:47 *drewc* points to quicklisp+sbcl. what me worry? 21:30:12 hehe 21:30:12 merijn: well, that's my feeling about Scheme 21:30:13 There is a reason why python *is* CPython and Haskell *is* GHC. No choices to confuse and scare newcomers like me :> 21:30:17 quicklisp is divine 21:30:20 merijn: QL is pretty good at solving library issues -- and you're _much_ more certain to be able to switch between lisps if your requirements change, than from Racket to anything else. 21:30:41 merijn: being scared of choice is not a good thing if you are searching for a better way 21:30:42 CL is mostly usable with just the standard and a couple of compatibility layers 21:30:54 *p_l* was quite content switching between SBCL and CCL and sometimes hammering ECL into working shape 21:30:54 if you go with Racket, you better pray to your deit(y|ies) of choice that you'll never come across an implementation issue that makes it unusable. 21:31:04 with Scheme you indeed you need to stick to just one implementation 21:31:11 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:31:12 -!- pavelludiq [~quassel@87.246.58.137] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:19 drewc: I'm not scared of choice, I'm scared of having to make a choice while I'm not even sure what the choice I'm making is 21:31:45 so, if we renamed SBCL 'paddle' and distributed quicklisp with it, that would be easier for you? 21:31:47 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:32:14 I'm not saying its a reasonable or logical problem :p 21:32:31 by trying to justify it, you sort of imply that. 21:32:51 its fear of making the _wrong_ choice. 21:33:23 *stassats* remembers rewriting a scheme program from one implementation to another, and then back again, because the latter implementation became too bloated for my purposes (PLT) 21:34:26 merijn: the good news is that CL is specified by a standard, and implementations tend to follow it, so the cost of a change for a newbie may be less than the newbie feels 21:34:27 after porting between perl 4 and 5, and also the php3->4 debacle, i'm very happy that it usually doesn't matter which CL i choose. 21:35:13 jdz [~jdz@host212-109-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 21:35:16 *sykopomp* switches between CL implementations (CCL/SBCL) without noticing sometimes. 21:35:19 that's why i'm glad there is no new foreseeable standardization process for CL 21:35:27 "Man, why is this taking so long to compile?..." "...oh." 21:35:42 As for being stuck with one implementation...I can't imagine learning a Lisp will make learning another significantly harder then learning the first one? 21:35:54 stassats: it's a double-edged sword, though 21:36:20 merijn: consider the cost of rewriting your code, regardless of whether you're familiar with the lisp or not. 21:36:25 i'm also toggling between ccl and sbcl, just to make sure stuff is reasonably portable 21:36:28 Haskell enjoys the freedom of making backwards-incompatible changes quite a lot, but they've been working hard at making it possible 21:37:39 merijn: just jump in, learn lisp with a specific implementation. The standard is widely implemented and there are compatibility libraries for non-standard extensions 21:38:09 Someone interested in latest confidental lisp pr0n? 21:38:17 tcr: always! 21:38:57 CCL, SBCL, CLISP, ACL, SCL, CMUCL, LW <--- all usable nearly the same for learning (the differences are in SLIME/IDE support) 21:39:01 drewc: That's why I decided to go with Racket instead of thinking more about it. I'm mostly arguing instead of programming because me brain is too fried to continue coding anyway :p 21:39:15 then you have ABCL which is nearly the same but apparently doesn't have full MOP yet 21:39:28 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.228.174] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:40:19 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:40:24 merijn: so it's not vendor tie-in and portability you're worried about, but rather not having a single source and a standard? It's just a very odd choice. Not a wrong one mind, just odd :)( 21:41:07 Racket is a nice language, and a much better choice than most other languages, so who am i to judge? :) 21:42:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/114731 21:42:22 drewc: The main problem basically boils down to the "paralysis of choice", which from my brief visits to Common Lisp world most more experienced people sorta forgot 21:42:28 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1CFC6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:28 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 21:43:41 tcr: neat-o 21:43:52 -!- reb [~user@nat/google/x-ydxtkztgeqmsahkf] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:44:34 -!- urandom_ [~user@p548A39F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:01 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:45:21 merijn: i never experienced that. I started with cmucl because it was the first implementation i found, and learned lisp using it. Then i changed to sbcl because i knew what i wanted from an implementation having used one for a while, and sbcl offered it. I've since tried almost every lisp there was, but stay with SBCL because it's what i know. 21:46:01 i don't think i like parsing Emacs buffers 21:46:29 may the computer do it for you=) 21:46:32 but if i had needs that another implementation addresses, i'd be very happy they exist. 21:47:27 now that gave it more thoughts, i don't think i like parsing at all 21:47:40 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316055951]] 21:47:40 jeyr [~jeyr@117.199.1.118] has joined #lisp 21:47:41 merijn: it's not paralysis of choice, it's paralysis of brain 21:48:09 rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:10 adeht: Why's that? 21:48:58 i heard that choice is what happens when the mind is confused, not the other way around 21:49:23 That is what the paralysis of choice is. The tendency of humans (and other animals) to freeze and be unable to make a decision when confronted with too many choices. Even if said choices are trivial and unimportant 21:49:30 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:50:02 merijn: please 21:50:17 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.17.188.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:29 is this going to get ugly 21:50:41 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:59 merijn: humans are burdened with choices from day one, and they're doing just fine with most of them 21:51:09 humasect: Naah, because I'm heading of to bed now. 21:51:23 Thanks for the help and the mildly useless meta-discussion :) 21:51:23 take care~ 21:51:24 *drewc* puts the popcorn down 21:51:38 merijn: any time! :) 21:51:46 adeht: Look it up, the paralysis of choice is a well established phenomenon in behavioural psychology :) 21:51:56 -!- merijn [~merijn@inconsistent.nl] has left #lisp 21:52:16 merijn: I think the term I'd use in this context is "folk psychology" 21:54:03 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.51.129] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 21:55:07 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:56 -!- jeyr [~jeyr@117.199.1.118] has left #lisp 21:56:21 adeht: actually, it's a well known phenomenon... it takes more than just "choice" and it's rather complex in its requirements, but it exists and I believe it can apply to case of most programming newbies. I admit that I have it quite often as well :) 21:56:39 ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 21:56:51 tcleval [~funnyguy@187.18.166.163] has joined #lisp 21:57:09 although I'm more into cognitive science than behavioural psychology. At least the modern behavioural psychology is no longer the stuff of old 21:57:24 amnesiac [~amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 21:58:24 it's related to what many people might recognize when they overanalyze their choices :) 21:58:36 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:59:51 *p_l* hopes to reuse some of his (failed) psychology courses in UI design 22:01:36 gonzojive [~red@171.66.92.8] has joined #lisp 22:03:37 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-240.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:04:18 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.17.188.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 22:04:20 p_l: and why should the world cater to those who suffer this "analysis paralysis" (which is a metaphorical term, and is especially "well known" in communities of programmers who like to play psychologists on their blogs) 22:04:31 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:05:52 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-84-44-239-240.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:07:35 ephcon [~ephcon@mobile-166-217-025-173.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:09 adeht: increasing efficiency? Mind you, I'm not proposing to specifically allow certain idiocies, fallacies etc. to flourish or be ignored 22:08:50 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5B28793F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 22:09:03 i wish i could express constraints on variables more easily in SBCL 22:09:15 One of the things I'm trying to reach with my long-term personal project is to avoid the trap of many "user friendly" systems, that make it hard to advance in knowledge and seem to cater only to "brand new" user 22:09:22 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.17.188.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:09:32 the efficiency of who? lets say that the world of Common Lisp divides into two groups: those who chose their implementation and those who didn't 22:10:31 adeht: Well, in terms of programmers I find more issue in the fragmentation than multitude of choice 22:10:53 p_l: that's irrelevant to "analysis paralysis" 22:11:28 i.e. making the choice sometimes becomes harder not because there are many options, but because I run into deadlock trying to decide which choice is the closest to my need 22:11:51 (and thus another project is started adding to the fragmentation) 22:11:56 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:12:27 -!- mhd [mhd@clozure-D1451B0E.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:12:27 -!- mhd [~mhd@c-76-118-198-68.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:13:30 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 22:13:33 are characters in SBCL always EQ? 22:13:42 p_l: it's hard for me to imagine why a person would come to #lisp and play a self-aware Buridan's ass if his purpose is to learn the language 22:14:26 adeht: heh :) 22:15:20 I tend not to discuss about too much options here but instead talk about some narrow topic related to what I need when I find myself with trouble to choose 22:15:48 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:16:10 though I have to say that "abandonement" of certain projects and concentration on single common one is a very helpful thing (stuff like CXML, for example) 22:16:17 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@mobile-166-217-025-173.mycingular.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:18:14 stassats: (eq (aref "A" 0) (aref (coerce "A" 'simple-base-string) 0)) is T, I could have envisioned it to be NIL :-) 22:18:36 CHAR= turned out to be faster than EQ 22:18:55 *stassats* is enjoying micro-optimizations 22:20:53 p_l: I'm not sure CXML would be a good example.. there's a single person working on it (of course, that person sometimes get patches or bug reports), and I've seen posts by several persons recommending other libraries (although I really like CXML myself) 22:21:07 -!- kloeri [~kloeri@freenode/staff/exherbo.kloeri] has quit [Ping timeout: 612 seconds] 22:21:23 a better facility to compare disassemblings would be nice 22:22:59 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:23:30 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 22:24:48 adeht: I have encountered several other XML processing packages yet I alway return to CXML as being the most feature-complete and having least issues 22:25:49 funny, (safety 0) actually decreases speed 22:26:20 stassats: I've been thinking of making a portable assembler in CL, it could always use a disassembler as well... 22:27:29 timack [~tim@hlfx53-2a-219.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 22:28:08 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-33-245.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 22:28:15 p_l: I agree here.. in the "olden days" I remember using S-XML and such, but nowadays CXML is the obvious choice.. to me. pity all those paralysis victims 22:28:48 sbcl keeps inserting array bounds check even though i have while (< i length) 22:29:52 adeht: I'd love for more such projects not because of paralysis, but because my "paralysis" tends to come from interdependencies of various projects. More stuff like common APIs/protocols is needed, IMHO - Ruby got a wonderful example of how useful that is with their Rack framework 22:30:30 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #lisp 22:30:38 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:31:03 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@68-187-217-76.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:08 qbomb [~qbomb@74.112.104.82] has joined #lisp 22:32:04 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:35:31 -!- jdz [~jdz@host212-109-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:36:37 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:55 reb [~user@nat/google/x-gybbqhqcidlgfqtd] has joined #lisp 22:42:51 stassats: loop doesn't expand into python-friendly code. 22:43:12 what does? 22:43:45 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@187.18.166.163] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:44:18 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:42 I actually don't think we can handle (< i (length x)) during cprop anyway, but, with constant array sizes, I believe I've had better luck with dotimes than loop. 22:44:54 p_l: what I don't like is the usual conclusion of the "analysis paralysis" doctors and patients.. they want their choice to be obvious by means of a priori elimination of alternatives.. 22:45:03 i'm checking DO 22:46:19 no difference 22:46:47 and the array size isn't constant 22:47:12 adeht: it's a common problem related to incorrect thinking patterns seen often... 22:47:25 (growing in their use, even) 22:48:04 replacing setf with a let removes couple of thousands of cycles 22:48:29 p_l: in the CL implementation world we can deal with it by reducing the cost of a mistaken decision (e.g., by the Standard, compat layers), better informing our peers (e.g., Weinreb's survey, #lisp), and plain ol' propaganda (e.g., "Save Lisp and Die" shirts ;) 22:49:12 stassats: you could just disable array checks 22:49:42 -!- jga [~gajon@189.253.104.190] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:49:43 well, (safety 0) increases time, i'll try to disable array checks specifically 22:50:14 *sykopomp* enjoys his SLAD t-shirt, and proudly wore it to his TCLispers talk. 22:50:22 safety 0 /increases/ the runtime? 22:50:34 that seems rather strange 22:50:35 adeht: sure. Haskell people reduced the cost by ensuring that all non-fringe developement was centralised (but not enough to remove choice - GHC is bloody modular) and making access to packages as easy as possible 22:51:03 yep (sb-c::insert-array-bounds-checks 0) increases the running time 22:52:08 i blame CPU caching 22:52:23 huh. How would omitting array bounds checks help CPU caching? 22:52:39 er, I meant: How would inserting array bounds checks help CPU caching? 22:52:40 are there any lisp-likes (aside from Clojure's mixed-up representation) that represent s-exps with data structures other than conses? 22:52:46 foom: priming the cache 22:52:58 p_l: at the cost of a miss. 22:53:00 Are there compelling arguments to choose to do so? 22:53:11 the difference is minuscule, though 22:53:27 stassats: I'd make sure you're measuring what you think you're measuring first. 22:53:50 it's not an artificial test case 22:53:53 sykopomp: sure, linked lists are a pretty horrible data representation on modern CPUs. 22:54:15 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:40 changing everything to use vectors by default would almost certainly be a win. 22:54:45 I guess even with macros, code is generally going to be pretty constant, no? I guess good ol' arrays would be a better representation. 22:54:49 stassats: there could still be measurement error. 22:55:03 foom: since when do we need ultra-high-performance sexp iteration? 22:55:11 mon_key [~user@unaffiliated/monkey/x-267253] has joined #lisp 22:55:16 *p_l* would love to have a good way to handle preallocated pools 22:55:18 Ralith: it probably doesn't really matter for that, but it rolls over into the rest of the language 22:55:18 For instance, did a GC completely flush the caches? 22:55:21 sykopomp: modifying arrays is a PITA. 22:55:28 foom: the rest of the language? 22:55:33 howdy 22:55:41 pkhuong: i run it several times and it's consistent 22:55:45 foom: if you're using lists for high-performance data access, you're doing it wrong. 22:55:45 Ralith: is centered around conses and manipulating conses, instead of vectors. 22:55:47 Ralith: "I need a data structure." "I know, I'll use conses!" 22:56:10 foom: it's no more inconvenient to use vectors than anything else. 22:56:14 sykopomp: which is great. 22:56:28 true, it's more convenient than anything else, other than conses... 22:56:35 I don't see how. 22:56:43 Running into a problem on SBCL 1.0.42.25 and not sure if it is me or the build. 22:57:03 mon_key: i'm not sure either 22:57:08 describe your problem 22:57:09 empty list is false, empty vector is true 22:57:20 equal on a list checks the contents, equal on an vector checks identity 22:57:20 Is it possible to (setf (documentation 'my-macro 'function) "docs....") 22:57:41 foom: I'd say if you're 22:57:43 er 22:57:45 (except for, randomly, strings and bitvectors) 22:57:52 foom: I'd say if you're relying on either of those you're doing it wrong :P 22:57:59 stassats: FWIW works on clisp :( 22:58:09 and those aren't relevant to sexp representation anyway. 22:58:34 Ralith: right, but those wouldn't be the case if the reader read vectors 22:58:38 Ralith: because they're damned inconvenient 22:58:42 stassats: only thing i can find relevant on launchpad bugs was Bug #565737 22:58:50 Ralith: and CL was designed to write a compiler, so it was made convenient for that purpose. :) 22:59:07 stassats: which apparently you reported :) 22:59:17 foom: just because CL stopped at having good list support doesn't mean that sexps being lists is a bad idea. 22:59:21 mon_key: looks like a bug, (setf (documentation (macro-function 'foo) 'function)) works fine 22:59:41 Ralith: once you have good vector support, there's no point in having sexps be linked lists. 23:00:00 foom: er, they're a natural data structure for that sort of manipulation afaict. 23:00:25 using vectors might even be less performant with all the reallocs you'd be doing 23:00:45 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.184.39] has joined #lisp 23:00:49 stassats: That form works for me as well. Is it idiomatic or sbcl juju? 23:00:51 Ralith: I don't really see what makes them a natural 23:01:05 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.184.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:01:19 natural tree structure, simple manipulation 23:01:29 mon_key: as I said, (setf (documentation 'macro 'function) "docs....") looks like a bug in SBCL 23:01:35 vectors have just as natural a tree structure 23:01:42 and for simple manipulation, see above. :) 23:01:57 vector manipulation is not simple no matter how much syntatic sugar you have 23:02:08 and they have no tree structure at all O.o 23:03:17 oh? (+ (* a b) (* c d)) can be perfectly well represented by a vector of 3 elements: '+, (a vector of 3 elements: '+, 'a, 'b), (a vector of 3 elements: '+, 'c, 'd) 23:03:21 stassats: Ok. I will report it. 23:03:32 er, subsitute '* for '+ in the appropriate places there 23:03:59 which isn't nearly as natural as the linked list equivalent. 23:04:04 of course it is 23:04:23 *Ralith* shrug 23:04:29 have fun mutating them 23:05:36 Of course, inserting elements into the middle is the one thing linked lists are better at. 23:05:49 stassats: thanks for your help :) 23:07:14 mon_key: ok, you write the report, i'll write the patch 23:09:04 or anywhere else 23:09:06 :P 23:09:38 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@74.112.104.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:10:02 qbomb [~qbomb@pool4-207.teleclipse.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:07 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1CFC6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:12:01 stassats: ok, you've got bugs :) Bug #643958 23:12:59 mon_key: ok, i've attached a patch 23:13:50 -!- ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:13:59 stassats: if only it were all so easy as this :) 23:14:25 then it would be boring! 23:15:05 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:15:51 stassats: well, thanks again for your help. 23:15:57 syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.184.39] has joined #lisp 23:16:02 you're welcome 23:17:04 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 23:17:25 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7562e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:18:44 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:22:17 -!- syamajala [~syamajala@140.232.184.39] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:20 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:22:48 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:24:07 davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:32 drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:01 (parse (zero-or-more (char #\a) "aaab") "asd") 23:25:05 whoops! 23:25:18 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:26:15 drewc: so, do wee need to sign an NDA? 23:26:16 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:26:59 yeah, that's really quite specific internal code... i may have to kill you all! 23:27:41 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:28:46 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30:06 -!- benny [~user@i577A8815.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:30:26 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30:32 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 23:30:35 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:30:38 -!- l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:30:46 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-92-122-77.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:04 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.59.116] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:31:04 -!- codemonkeyx [~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:31:05 milanj [~milanj_@109-92-122-77.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 23:31:07 -!- mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:25 as long as we don't get Pegged.. will you Pack us with Rat poison? 23:31:42 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:32:05 *groan* 23:32:16 l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 23:32:32 codemonkeyx [~codemonke@www.sinclair-durer.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:56 O.o 23:36:02 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-113-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:37:42 insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-113-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 23:39:36 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.59.116] has joined #lisp 23:39:48 -!- gigamonkey [~user@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:40:14 mal__ [~mal@www2.wimmekes.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:27 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:41:26 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 23:45:22 -!- zaidaus [~zaidaus@60-241-74-109.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 23:45:23 zaidaus [~zaidaus@unaffiliated/zaidaus] has joined #lisp 23:46:11 -!- gonzojive [~red@171.66.92.8] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 23:49:47 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:55:57 gonzojive [~red@171.66.53.227] has joined #lisp 23:56:17 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-66-113.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:57:14 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-35-32.w92-148.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:58:11 mek_ [~mek@wifi-roaming-255-3.nss.udel.edu] has joined #lisp 23:59:07 Howdy. Has anyone run into stack overflow errors in CL while trying to launch stumpwm? I saw that there was a bug report filed and supposedly a fix but I have no idea what the solution entailed.