00:04:35 -!- trebor_home [~email@178.4.26.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:08:54 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-139-149.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 00:12:27 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7578de.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:07 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:21:49 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.254] has joined #lisp 00:23:22 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:47 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 00:31:00 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.57.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:53 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:45:46 totally offtopic, but everyone knows about the xkcd about lisp "these are your father's parenthesis" 00:46:36 yes 00:46:50 but, I'm trying to find another image that's like "what lisp programmers see" and has a bunch of stuff written like "beauty" and then "what non-lispers see" and it has a bunch of arrows at parenthesis and stuff like "oh gawd" 00:46:56 anyone know where it is? 00:47:02 nope 00:47:06 :\ 00:47:15 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:47:39 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-139-149.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:50 sounds fun 00:48:06 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316055951]] 00:48:20 well, I'm grepping my IRC logs for the link 00:49:01 nada :( 00:50:05 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:50:10 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:46 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A68CA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:55 finding funny ones 00:58:58 but not /it/ 00:59:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 00:59:02 http://www.robsayers.com/images/yolisp.jpg is funny 00:59:23 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-140-140.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 01:00:20 -!- rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:01:05 rahul [~rjain@66-234-32-150.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:17 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:02:20 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-135-9.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:02:32 humasect_ [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:03 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:03:28 http://asset.soup.io/asset/0390/2921_1919.jpeg another funny one, but still finding that one that I absolutely <3 01:04:22 gcv [~gcv@ool-457569c4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:40 -!- gcv [~gcv@ool-457569c4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 01:05:22 yolisp had me laughing 01:05:30 hah 01:09:04 OliverUv: p_l: http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/1397/lispnd7.png 01:09:22 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:09:32 http://mamememo.blogspot.com/2010/09/qlobe.html 01:09:32 wow 01:09:57 zc00gii: that's the one eh? 01:09:58 i like it 01:10:00 heheh, i like the beard guy picture zc00gii, can you paste me the others ? =) 01:10:47 http://www.robsayers.com/images/yolisp.jpg 01:10:50 there's the other one 01:10:56 humasect_: I am disappointed in you 01:11:02 you don't recognize the "beard guy"? 01:11:08 wow 01:11:20 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:11:23 i should start calling him "The Beard Guy" in all future conversations 01:11:27 hehe i will assume its emacs guy because of various clues 01:11:37 humasect_: it's fucking rms! 01:11:38 also GNU guy 01:11:49 and if you have him he is definitely the GNU/Linux guy 01:12:12 RMS/Linus :D 01:12:22 GNU/Linux is thanks to RMS/Linus 01:12:23 ^_^ 01:12:37 humasect_: you don't know what rms stands for do you? :( 01:12:43 Richard M. Stallman 01:12:51 the guy to thank for linux, and everything 01:13:15 i know =) i was focused on the lisp and emacs stuff rather than the faces and haircuts^_^ 01:13:39 -!- humasect_ is now known as humasect 01:14:01 course, he didn't write the linux kernel 01:14:05 hehe 01:14:05 but if it wasn't around 01:14:08 there'd be no Linux 01:14:13 Fare [~Fare@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 01:14:14 because of no userland 01:14:17 without emacs ? =) 01:15:04 humasect: no, GNU 01:15:12 what if his interests were selfish at each step of the way through his journey, even though many have benefited ? 01:15:26 RMS was also one of the original authors of gcc 01:15:29 i should check up on my gnu and emacs history 01:15:34 ..er, future 01:16:26 hey can i ask - whereabouts did this stuff mostly take place? california or ? 01:16:37 rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-135-9.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:56 "To prevent software from being used on their competitors' computers, most manufacturers stopped distributing source code and began using copyright and restrictive software licenses to limit or prohibit copying and redistribution. " =O 01:19:10 lets talk about lisp 01:19:31 i woke up one morning with lisp all in my brain and eyes and head for no reason. that is when i fell in love 01:19:51 I fell in love with lisp when I understood it 01:19:54 before that 01:19:58 I hated it with a passion 01:20:05 i felt the sunshine but it had not risen yet beyond the horizon 01:20:13 same thing happened with haskell 01:20:17 hehe 01:20:18 something about functional programmming man. 01:20:26 *humasect* can't go bacjk 01:20:35 All other languages were like "Oh cool! Kinda a cool language" 01:20:41 lisp and haskell was like 01:21:06 that morning i suddenly got it, the lispness 01:21:08 "ZOMGWTFCHEEZEBUGERNOILIEKHAMBURGERSWITHOUTCHEEZEBBQBBLCHEEZE AWSUM LANGUAGE" 01:21:26 ok, please stop the babble 01:21:36 i knew lisp before, it was Just a functional language. i think it was erlang which triggered it. which was triggered by haskell.. 01:21:37 common lisp isn't functional (thank god) 01:21:41 (which was triggered by smalltalk) 01:21:53 zc00gii: hehe, yeah i remember that^_^ 01:22:17 the parentheses are so beautiful 01:22:30 i dont understand what all the other languages are about anymore, really 01:22:32 *drewc* feels the rage coming on. 01:22:36 never mind the parentheses 01:22:42 the structure is what is beautiful 01:22:46 thats just it, i can't see them anymore! =) 01:22:48 if you want to wax poetic about parens, get a blog! 01:22:56 never mind the trees, enjoy the forest 01:24:04 alright alright, one more thing. when i had played with lisp before i had to fight with parentheses. now it just flows (and i almost start to not like the spaces... ) 01:24:25 like going backward to add another one, etc. it comes out naturally now because it makes sense. done! 01:24:35 use paredit, there are no parens. 01:24:38 minion: paredit? 01:24:38 paredit: a set of Emacs commands, with a minor mode for convenient access to them, for editing balanced S-expressions and a number of higher-level operations on S-expressions, at ; see also the #paredit channel 01:24:49 *rtoym* wonders if he should send an update for slime character completion. 01:24:54 zc00gii: i am reading wikipedia on gnu and rms, very interesting stuff, thanks =) 01:27:27 humasect: welcome to the world of software engineering and computer science, hope you'll enjoy many adventures 01:27:46 ^_^ thanks 01:28:04 remember that programming languages are just tools, each has their own purpose and use 01:28:29 there is no use in being too attached to any of them 01:28:50 yeah =) in my current project here i am using erlang, lisp, javascript and something else 01:28:57 sweet 01:29:06 i am glad to have gotten out of the "C-mind" that i had grown up with 01:29:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Graham_(computer_programmer)#Blub <<< my way of thinking about CL is that it is the "most powerful" language i know 01:30:09 that doesn't mean it is the best, or that it is always the best tool of choice 01:30:35 ahh yes i had read this before -- not the best or the worst, i very much agree and feel the same 01:30:42 "perfectly in the middle" as buddha might say 01:30:49 -!- LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:31:10 you're buddhist? 01:31:16 i don't know if buddha would say that 01:31:19 i may start looking for how to get a lisp keyboard...heh 01:31:30 buddha might say a lot of stuff about the middle 01:31:34 between the extremes 01:32:44 Buddhism has to be the most logical religion out there 01:32:50 I believe in the reincarnation part 01:33:09 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 01:33:39 i am buddhist, but I do not believe in literal reincarnation 01:34:19 it doesn't run well with the non-dualism, as it would consider some kind of soul or identity separate from the being 01:35:02 *humasect* not surprised to see lisp and buddhism find themselves in the same place=) 01:35:41 lisp is good for programming the computer, buddhism is good for programming everything else 01:37:03 -!- brandonz [~brandon@24.38.183.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:39:10 write some macros on lisp and begin a new religion :-) 01:39:42 humasect, heh 01:40:30 buddhism is good for accepting and appreciating what really is 01:40:33 OliverUv, buddhism talks about "reborn" , not reincarnation 01:40:35 it is not about changing anything but your attitude 01:41:01 there is a slight difference, though probably this is not the right channel to talk about this :P 01:41:04 araujo: there are many buddhists who believe in literal reincarnation 01:41:14 also plenty of chinese buddhists who believe in litteral "hells" 01:41:14 i would have said "good for programming hte mind" but not everyone realises that is where everything really is 01:41:24 *literal 01:41:36 OliverUv, well, here I am talking about the Buddhist doctrine.. and are you sure they talk about that and not reborn?? ... 01:41:39 hehe lisp religion 01:41:44 but yeah let's return to being silent so any on-topic convos brewing in people's minds can srface 01:41:55 it can be confusing, but there exist slight and important difference 01:41:59 humasect, hehehe 01:42:20 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:42:21 OliverUv: The meaning and idea of life in buddhism is very different to me 01:42:37 I'm nihilistic in the meaning/point of life 01:42:50 I don't see any true purpose or meaning in life 01:42:52 buddhism avoids nihilism nicely 01:43:09 OliverUv: yeah, that's why I don't call myself a buddhist 01:43:10 it is very practical, mostly dealing with how to minimize suffering in our lives 01:43:24 buddha used a title for himself that roughly meant "doctor" 01:43:24 the trick might be to realise that buddhism is not a single thing that everyone sees differently -- but actually each person would have their own form of buddhism 01:43:42 *araujo* guesses we could take this to other channel 01:43:44 humasect: yes 01:44:05 Reason being I'm a nihilistic mostly because I've had a rough life, causing a very very strong bias 01:44:19 evangelism on lisp channel.. funny stuff :-) 01:44:20 zc00gii: hehe when i think of nihilism i think about programming without a purpose. i'm not sure it could even happen! =) 01:44:29 after all, nothing does not exist =) 01:44:46 humasect: I'm not a Nihilistic programmer 01:44:49 no purpose is the presence of a lack of purpose ~ 01:44:54 I'm a programmer that is a nihilist :) 01:45:14 ok enough of that, lets talk about whores and shemales 01:45:19 But think about this for a moment 01:45:27 zc00gii: what i meant to say is that if life had no meaning or purpose, it would be like programming without a purpose. what would you type? what would you name the file? come on=) 01:45:40 sure, one may say no existence at all would suck 01:45:42 please let's talk about lisp 01:45:46 but, there is much suffering in this world 01:45:56 lisp and whores 01:46:00 rme: I already started ranting, let me finish this :P 01:46:10 I am in #zenlisp 01:46:16 But there is much happiness as well 01:46:16 in case you want to take this there 01:46:17 only where u see it. lisp and breasts 01:46:26 I don-t think it is right here 01:46:30 araujo: hehe 01:46:32 anyway, no existence would make all emotions and thoughts existenceless 01:46:33 i mean, to talk about this 01:46:34 hehehehe 01:46:35 so, no suffering 01:46:37 ohh 01:47:00 zc00gii, OliverUv zenlisp! 01:47:07 and we fight there 01:47:09 lets talk about this kind of s-exp (.)_(.) 01:47:10 hehe 01:47:21 tcleval=P 01:47:23 wow... i leave for a few minutes and you guys have gone off. Good thing it's saturday afternoon or i'd be a pissed:) 01:47:37 OliverUv, jump there and I can explain a bit the difference 01:47:46 lets talk about lisp and keep the signal to noise ratio decent, ya? 01:47:56 ya~ 01:48:57 can anyone tell me what happens if I apply this special operator _|_ to this s-exp (.)_(.) 01:49:19 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 01:49:40 -!- tcleval [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has been kicked from #lisp by drewc (nope Kicked by drewc) 01:49:50 tcleval [~funnyguy@187.58.91.14] has joined #lisp 01:49:54 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 01:49:57 it was a joke come on 01:50:18 take the adolescent sex humor elsewhere, please. 01:50:36 ok, lets go back to budda 01:50:52 jk 01:51:27 shhh 01:51:39 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-26-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52:15 drwho [~drwho@c-68-63-83-105.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:42 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:56:23 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quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:33:55 xinming [~hyy@122.238.76.61] has joined #lisp 04:34:43 -!- Riastradh [debian-tor@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:37:24 bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:33 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:39:23 -!- bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:41:03 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:41:10 -!- Riastrad1 is now known as Riastradh 04:42:10 cvp_ [~cvp@kresge-37-2.resnet.ucsc.edu] has joined #lisp 04:42:22 Hi. I've got a dumb question. 04:42:35 ok 04:42:42 I'm new to this stuff, and I've been trying to get a working install of SBCL, and I'm running into a problem. 04:42:50 yes 04:42:51 I'm trying to install readline support for the SBCL interpreter. 04:43:04 On CLiki, it told me to make modifications to sb-readline.lisp. 04:43:06 And I did this. 04:43:16 cvp_: that seems like a waste of time. 04:43:17 But when I do the asdf-install line again, it downloads a fresh copy... 04:43:26 sykopomp: Why's that? 04:43:34 cvp_: install prepl 04:43:51 cvp_: first of all, many of us here use SLIME when using SBCL, which makes readline kinda pointless. 04:43:58 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:44:10 and don't use asdf-install. clbuild or Quicklisp recommended. And SLIME is MANDATORY 04:44:15 second of all, rlwrap provides reasonable enough functionality when not in SLIME land. 04:44:31 Gotcha. Okay. 04:44:33 minion: tell cvp_ about linux-quickstart 04:44:33 cvp_: have a look at linux-quickstart: Linux Common Lisp Quickstart (Emacs, SLIME and SBCL + clbuild): http://unya.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/linux-common-lisp-quickstart/ 04:44:35 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:44:40 "doctor, it helps when I touch here." "then stop touching it" 04:44:50 you can replace clbuild parts with quicklisp 04:44:59 for quicklisp, join #quicklisp channel 04:45:21 Alright. Well, I just heard a whole lot of new buzzwords. I guess I'll go find out what they all mean. 04:45:37 Oh, and as for SBCL as a choice to learn Lisp... good? Bad? 04:45:49 sbcl is good 04:45:54 cvp_: SBCL is a fine, high-quality implementation. 04:46:03 I imagine I might be better able to appreciate differences between the implementations once I know what the heck I'm looking for in one. :p 04:46:19 depending on your needs, you may find yourself looking elsewhere in some future, but SBCL will do the trick. 04:46:27 Right on. 04:46:35 is good on linux 04:46:41 cvp_: if you're on linux x86/x86-64, SBCL is no-brainer till you're experienced enough to know exactly what you're doing 04:46:54 and even then it's probably the safest bet 04:47:03 Hey, thanks a lot for your help, guys! I'm going to go R a lot of FM's. 04:47:06 cvp_: fortunately, when it comes to doing most things with Common Lisp, any implementation usually suffices. The CL standard is big enough (and libraries are often portable enough), that you don't need to worry too much about your initial choice of implementation :) 04:47:13 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:47:13 (and definitely fastest, though I have to test SCL) 04:47:18 Righto. 04:47:21 Cool, thanks again. 04:47:29 -!- cvp_ [~cvp@kresge-37-2.resnet.ucsc.edu] has left #lisp 04:47:32 p_l: CCL is certainly faster for development, for me ;) 04:48:25 sykopomp: well, it is faster for developement, but I sometimes had issues with some libs, which while not a problem for experienced person (who can simply fix it fast) it's a definite problem for a newbie 04:49:09 just sayin' 04:49:42 -!- Fare [~Fare@63.107.91.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:50:58 -!- boaz_ [~boaz@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:53:05 For any interested parties who were not awake several hours ago: There's a new beta of paredit 22 up at ; there are no release notes yet, but the output of `darcs changes' as of now is at . 04:53:44 anything worth noting for us lazy people that don't want to click links? 04:54:02 Do you use paredit? 04:54:06 yes :) 04:54:30 It looks like there's a lot of changes. 04:55:03 There are some new bells & whistles, and some old bells & whistles sound better. I could say more, but I'd be regurgitating paredit.changes then. 04:55:23 I'll look through that, then :) 04:55:57 `paredit-semicolon' is back. If you were frustrated by the old `paredit-semicolon', you might be slightly less frustrated with the new one. 04:58:27 Riastradh: does it still go batshit insane upon encountering unbalanced parens? 04:58:28 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.145.163] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:58:28 (That's the command to which `;' was bound to few versions ago, and to which it is now bound again.) 04:58:57 Of course, p_l. It's an enormous kludge. 04:59:17 There's a partially finished experiment for improving the behaviour of killing and yanking regions of text. 04:59:39 I've written `paredit-kill-region' and `paredit-kill-ring-save', but I have yet to write `paredit-yank', because it turns out to be tricky. 04:59:58 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-135-9.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:00:30 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-116-183.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:48 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 05:02:55 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.145.163] has joined #lisp 05:04:34 curupa [~eduardoap@c-24-16-101-41.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:48 boaz_ [~boaz@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:06:53 question. I want to start learning Lisp on Mac osx, so what should I use as IDE? Or is it better to go straight to emacs? 05:07:12 emacs=) 05:07:20 p_l, perhaps Climacs's structedit will help that endeavour, but I haven't followed it. 05:07:35 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:07:39 and with "slime" i think? i am right in the middle of looking for a CL implementation 05:09:23 ok, I'm looking for something with slime, yes. humasect, what did you find so far? 05:09:29 i hear about aquamacs i know not what it is, bc i don't have a mac. 05:09:43 curupa: so far i am between SBCL and CLISP 05:09:51 (already using elisp=) 05:09:59 on mac? 05:09:59 ahh aquamacs sucks! 05:10:10 i have sbcl installed already from a previous encounter 05:10:39 please use this if you are looking for emacs on mac: emacsformacosx.com 05:10:54 curupa: emacs + slime + CCL/SBCL on OSX is a pretty reasonable choice. 05:10:57 indulging my ignorance, what is the difference between aquamacs and emacs? 05:11:01 no one likes aquamacs. dont be like me and have figured out the hard way=) 05:11:18 CLISP basically provides its own IDE, and last I checked, does not integrate very well with SLIME. 05:11:21 the experience was so traumatic that i have forgotten 05:11:25 cool, I'll give it a try 05:11:27 ahh 05:11:45 CCL ? 05:11:51 clozure cl 05:12:07 ohh Clojure ? 05:12:09 is descendent of macintosh common lisp 05:12:10 no 05:12:12 clozure 05:12:22 ah my apologies, i never heard of this one 05:12:30 http://www.clozure.com/clozurecl.html 05:12:31 macintosh common lisp or maclisp ? 05:12:34 thanks~ 05:12:39 macintosh common lisp 05:12:42 Clozure CL. 05:12:43 as in apple 05:12:50 =) 05:12:53 clozure looks quite nice 05:13:00 Good morning everyone! 05:13:03 yeah it is high quality definetly 05:13:05 beach: mornin' beach! 05:13:05 good morning~ 05:13:13 beach: I'm reading the Kernel Report right now :) 05:13:24 (after putting it off for too long...) 05:13:26 -!- bigjust`` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:13:49 Hi, beach. 05:13:49 what's the kernel report? 05:14:31 sykopomp: Are you planning to give us a little summary? 05:14:46 Hey Riastradh. What's up? 05:15:08 beach: more like ask questions! 05:15:17 -!- boaz_ [~boaz@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:15:23 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: good night folks] 05:15:25 Nothing much. I dropped by to mention that I put up a new beta of paredit 22 at . 05:15:51 curupa: Kernel is a still-in-the-oven dialect of the Lisp family that emphasises 'purity', and where everything is a first-class object. 05:16:06 without the common exception of special operators. 05:16:24 Riastradh: Excellent! 05:16:55 Changes are listed at , which is the output of `darcs changes' on . 05:17:51 beach: I think the thing that has struck me the most so far is his emphasis on "If you have to make semantic sacrifices for the sake of efficiency, your semantics are wrong" 05:18:07 at least how I interpret his rant about purity and practicality 05:19:18 -!- JonSmith [~jon@c-98-229-249-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:22:32 JonSmith [~jon@c-98-229-249-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:04 -!- JonSmith [~jon@c-98-229-249-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:23:21 I wonder whether the heading of paredit.el looks too big and scary. That's where the contact information is, but I receive very little feedback about paredit, yet Google finds threads with questions about it on various mailing lists, entries on web sites such as stackoverflow.com, and so on. 05:25:04 It didn't scare me. 05:26:57 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-116-183.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: BERB!] 05:31:22 Riastradh: people hesitate to contact the developer for tech support, I think. 05:31:41 especially people who are developers themselves. 05:32:09 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-11-216.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:24 boaz_ [~boaz@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 05:39:48 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-221-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:51:12 -!- curupa [~eduardoap@c-24-16-101-41.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: curupa] 05:54:32 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:59:44 dracco235 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[~73@97-83-148-133.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has left #lisp 07:33:11 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 07:33:15 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 07:37:14 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.254.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:41:57 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.145.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:43:35 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.163.247] has joined #lisp 07:59:55 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:59:58 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 08:00:24 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 08:06:21 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 08:08:06 fiveop [~fiveop@p5B28532F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:11 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:08:22 If you are not too busy, please comment on section 4.4.2 (tracking source code locations) of dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/sicl.pdf. 08:10:42 *_3b* suspects assuming macros aren't smart enough to deal with varying types might not be safe 08:11:39 _3b: It's not a matter of "safe" or not, just a question of making as educated a guess as possible for simple atoms. 08:12:37 <_3b> s/safe/a valid assumption/ 08:12:38 The worst thing that can happen is that the debugger can't find the source code location when an error is signaled. 08:12:49 _3b: Oh, I agree with you there. 08:16:12 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-38.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 08:16:16 I just can't figure out a better method. 08:16:44 <_3b> you might also want to check for the shape of the expansion changing when you start substituting things 08:18:31 -!- echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:18:43 <_3b> i guess on the first part, i'm more suspecting the problem is less rare than you think (hadn't gotten to the last paragraph yet before) 08:19:30 <_3b> things like &key/&optional lambda list args that are either a symbol or a list to be destructured 08:19:39 <_3b> (in the lambda list that is) 08:20:41 *_3b* wonders if it would be valid to shadow various CL functions during macro expansion with things that would annotate results 08:21:38 I am afraid I can't imagine a case where lambda lists would be a problem. Can you be more concrete? 08:21:48 -!- prip [~foo@host150-135-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:22:17 _3b: That's an interesting idea! 08:22:35 <_3b> not saying specifically it would be a problem (don't really have enough of the heuristic in my head to actually think it through) just that that is a common place to handle an atom and a list differently 08:23:11 *_3b* means a macro that parses lambda lists, if that wasn't clear 08:24:01 <_3b> i guess declarations/docstrings might require some care in deciding which types to substitute as well 08:24:44 Why docstrings? 08:25:03 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: omghaahhahaohwow] 08:25:08 <_3b> because if you change the first cons to a string, a macro that allows docstrings there would still consider it valid 08:25:10 timor [~timor@port-92-195-1-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:25:36 Right. 08:26:41 I am not suggesting changing conses to strings. 08:27:13 Abezethibou [~user@212.253.210.17] has joined #lisp 08:27:49 OK, I'll think about all this some more. Thanks for your comments! If you come up with some more ideas, let me know. 08:28:33 *_3b* also suspects that heuristic might break the other way frequently too, hard to say if it would be enough to matter or not without trying it on a bunch of random macros though 08:28:47 I guess for standard CL macros, I could supply a version that directly manipulates the AST, so that only user-supplied macros would cause problems. 08:29:39 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:29:58 darkmag [~vfalico@91.137.20.132] has joined #lisp 08:30:30 <_3b> might also be interesting to run the macro-function in an instrumented interpreter, and see if you can detect what it does from that 08:31:01 Yes, tracing the execution of the macro function is a definite possibility. 08:31:21 <_3b> though i guess once it starts calling out to random user functions, that gets a bit harder 08:31:26 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:32:30 *beach* vanishes for a while and will be back in a bit. 08:34:15 *JuanDaugherty* asks what's new/notable in the lisp world 08:35:42 is there a solid implementation using llvm yet? 08:36:29 *JuanDaugherty* rephrases. 08:36:34 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.163.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:36:51 is there an implementation with a working llvm backend yet? 08:38:24 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.198.200] has joined #lisp 08:38:30 i.e. like a "lisp machine on stock hardware" project 08:39:21 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:39:48 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:40:09 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 08:46:48 -!- Abezethibou [~user@212.253.210.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:48:16 Abezethibou [~user@88.240.48.7] has joined #lisp 08:48:29 *Abezethibou* is back 08:49:44 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:50:48 -!- darkmag [~vfalico@91.137.20.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:50:48 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:54:47 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-44-158.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:56:13 *beach* too. 08:56:18 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-27-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:18 -!- Abezethibou [~user@88.240.48.7] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:59:10 JuanDaugherty: I don't know the answer to your question, but I am guessing "no". A "Lisp machine on stock hardware" wouldn't necessarily use llvm though. 09:00:04 prip [~foo@host150-135-dynamic.43-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:01:55 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:03:06 -!- kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-83-249.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:08:13 navigator [~navigator@p54897BAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:57 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:43 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:48 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:14:05 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:27 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:19:08 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 09:23:26 JuanDaugherty: most major impls can already compile lisp to native code 09:31:08 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 09:33:16 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BFD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:49 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:40:12 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 09:40:22 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-176.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:40:43 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-176.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:41:09 Ralith: Yes, but it would be interesting to see a list of advantages/disadvantages to using llvm for a new implementation. 09:41:10 -!- tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:57 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 09:43:22 sepp2k__ [~sexy@p548CAE86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:52 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 09:45:38 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-176.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:45:54 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 09:46:29 beach: certainly; it's a great project 09:46:33 but it sounds like JuanDaugherty didn't realize that 09:46:47 -!- sepp2k_ [~sexy@p548CF216.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:46:58 -!- sepp2k__ [~sexy@p548CAE86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:47:19 sepp2k [~sexy@p548CAE86.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:40 echo-area [~echo-area@114.251.86.0] has joined #lisp 09:53:21 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B3279C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53:29 -!- Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:53:35 Fade [fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 09:53:43 darkmag [~vfalico@guest-docking-nat-1-049.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 09:53:43 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B3279C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:08 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:54:08 -!- bfein [~morik@63.107.91.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:54:18 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:54:34 bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 09:57:23 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 10:00:51 -!- darkmag [~vfalico@guest-docking-nat-1-049.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:01:57 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:02:44 Bronsa [~bronsa@host174-181-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:25:47 frito [~keithmant@cpc2-sotn4-0-0-cust13.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:26:01 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:26:19 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:30:57 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d98.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:22 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 10:39:11 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 10:44:22 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:14 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:42 *pjb* switched from gentoo to debian. 10:46:56 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 10:48:53 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:51:59 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 10:55:07 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:55:18 How do I convert a list of chars into a string? 10:57:07 (coerce list-of-chars 'string) 10:57:36 thx 11:01:25 (concatenate 'string sequence) is IMHO better 11:03:16 thx 11:05:12 urandom__ [~user@p548A6479.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:12 Blkt [~user@net-93-151-225-193.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 11:10:39 good evening everyone 11:10:59 err, afternoon 11:12:05 younder [~jthing@124.202.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:12:32 bozhidar [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 11:16:25 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-176.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:16:34 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-176.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:16:39 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-176.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 11:16:55 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-176.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:20:18 -!- hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20:58 -!- `micro [~micro@www.bway.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:23:42 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 11:29:58 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-30-105.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:30:37 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 11:37:53 colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-11-34.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:40:01 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-15-104.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:41:40 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:49:03 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:51:08 pjb: what was the cause of the switching? 11:52:12 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:52:18 debian :P 11:55:02 sepp2k_ [~sexy@p548CCEB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:28 -!- sepp2k [~sexy@p548CAE86.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:59:22 -!- jcazevedo [~jcazevedo@bl18-109-127.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:04:03 s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 12:05:56 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:07:17 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:07:24 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-139-149.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:49 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:08:58 -!- colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-11-34.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 12:09:50 -!- gko [~user@122-116-15-138.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:17:42 iisjmii [~iisjmii@212-252.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #lisp 12:18:43 Can anybody help me? This: (loop for x from 0 to 10 by .1 collect (sin (* x pi))) gives me this result: http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/6306/graphb.jpg 12:19:00 Are the peaks caused by a floating point glitch or am I doing something wrong? 12:20:40 I suspect that some values are printed in a form that your plotter's parser can't cope with 12:20:44 perhaps in scientific notation 12:20:53 values close to zero 12:21:34 lnostdal-android [~androirc@56.84-48-233.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:59 Krystof: That makes sence, let me see, Thanks! 12:22:57 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050064151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:24:11 Krystof: You where right...no glitches with (loop for x from 0 to 10 by .1 collect (coerce (sin (* x pi)) 'single-float)) Thank you! 12:30:10 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:30:46 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:30:48 _____s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 12:33:44 -!- s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:35:03 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:37:01 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: cofffeeee] 12:37:03 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-89-246.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:37:36 -!- lnostdal-android [~androirc@56.84-48-233.nextgentel.com] has quit [Quit: Bye] 12:43:37 ikki [~ikki@189.247.120.187] has joined #lisp 12:43:44 tcleval: I was fed up with the problems with gentoo. Almost every time I did a emerge --update world, things broke. I've been using it for several years, and nothing improved. 12:47:24 Soulman [~knute@159.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:29 bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-238-210.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:29 -!- bandu [~coyotama@pool-71-164-238-210.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:50:29 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 12:50:57 -!- bandu is now known as coyo 12:51:27 lnostdal-android [~androirc@56.84-48-233.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:54:37 Are ccl .cdb files djb-style cdbs? 12:56:00 *Xach* makes a cdb file iterator to find out 12:57:33 colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-11-34.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:57:38 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:59:37 davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:39 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 13:05:00 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:05:59 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:07:08 Any good strategies for comparing lists of unsorted groups of symbols (may have same contents but not same order) for equality? 13:08:13 set-difference? 13:08:19 *Xach* doesn't know if it's good or not 13:08:43 Modius: there's set-equal in alexandria 13:09:53 set-difference will do what I asked for. 13:10:01 I have a macro assert-set-equal on top of (null (set-exlusive-or )) which also prints out the odd ones in case the assertion fails 13:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:41 But it may not be what I'm after after all (more I think about it) - is there a way to get a deterministic search key from an unsorted list of symbols such that it would be the same irrespective of their order? 13:10:49 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 13:11:36 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:11:53 I'm *guessing* there's no deterministic way to order symbols 13:13:07 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:18 What's the high-level goal you're trying to achieve? 13:13:24 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 13:13:26 -!- colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-11-34.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:14:01 -!- dracco235 [~andy@pool-96-224-53-152.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:14:06 dracco235 [~andy@pool-96-224-53-152.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:06 colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-11-34.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:14:22 Modius: string< can work, depending on your needs 13:14:24 tcr: code generation - rebuilding "lexical scope" and lambdas. Want to keep ability to congeal symbol lists and find the element associated. 13:14:30 nikodemus: Thanks 13:14:55 It's a situation where I can just associate a numeric with each symbol and use that 13:17:38 -!- dracco235 [~andy@pool-96-224-53-152.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:17:43 dracco235 [~andy@pool-96-224-53-152.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:43 Modius: might be one of those cases where symbol-plist comes really handy 13:19:51 instead of using, say, an alist 13:22:37 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:27:21 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 13:28:54 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:30:08 -!- sepp2k_ [~sexy@p548CCEB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:32:21 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-71.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:29 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-71.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:39 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:35:14 -!- colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-11-34.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:35:23 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050064151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:35:41 colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-11-34.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:38:46 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 13:39:59 -!- coyo [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:40:46 -!- bandu is now known as coyo 13:46:50 I *win*! Significantly faster sort function in SICL: http://paste.lisp.org/+2GHF 13:47:32 how does it behave on corner cases? 13:47:49 I don't know. Give me a corner case, and I'll check it. 13:48:07 already sorted, already sorted, but in reverse 13:48:14 Hold on... 13:48:34 curupa [~eduardoap@c-24-16-101-41.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:47 beach: what's the SICL licence? 13:51:10 nikodemus: It will be the closest thing possible to public domain. 13:51:23 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:51:24 beach: so MIT0 :) 13:51:31 that's great 13:51:34 nikodemus: I haven't figured that out yet. 13:51:47 stassats: For already sorted, SICL is slightly faster 9.8s vs 10.8 for SBCL. 13:52:56 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:52:58 http://paste.lisp.org/display/114676 # MIT0 13:53:09 <_3b> beach: did you see the thread about faster sorting on sbcl-devel recently? 13:54:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:54:43 _3b: No, I haven't looked at that. What was the essence? 13:54:44 beach: yeah, actually it turns out our STABLE-SORT outperforms our SORT, which is kind of silly 13:54:51 beach: and for sorted in the reverse order? 13:54:59 stassats: Working on it. 13:55:10 <_3b> beach: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/15190 13:55:48 nikodemus: Right, mine is stable. 13:56:05 <_3b> the bit about stable-sort was probably the main point, aside from someone else being working on the problem 13:56:40 stassats: 10.3s for SBCL 6.8s for SICL 13:56:47 beach: what are the numbers if you compare to stable-sort? 13:57:01 nikodemus: Hold on... 13:57:03 beach: and what algorithm are you using? 13:57:12 stassats: Mergesort. 13:59:11 <_3b> beach: oh yeah, something else i was thinking might be useful to have in sicl, is non-specialized versions of some of the functions you have lots of special cases for 13:59:29 <_3b> beach: so code worried about size more than performace could use the generic version 13:59:41 -!- davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:00:20 3b: Such as? 14:01:40 nikodemus: For the revers sorted case SBCL sort and stable sort take about the same, so SICL beats SBCL stable sort as well. I am having a hard time with this test case, because SLIM/Emacs keep crashing on me. 14:01:46 <_3b> Zhivago: i'd have to open up the code to find a specific example, but sicl has lots of functions for stuff like foo-with-:key-arg foo-with-:key-and-:test (with actually READable names of cource) 14:02:59 *_3b* isn't sure it would actually end up a win in space, particularly with a tree shaker though 14:03:03 -!- lnostdal-android [~androirc@56.84-48-233.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:03:24 _3b: tree shaker wouldn't shake what's already used 14:03:38 -!- colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-11-34.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:04:18 <_3b> stassats: yeah, but at least i don't need to care about the pile of special cases if i never call that function, or if the compiler macro expanded to a specific special case function, so the rest get dropped 14:04:22 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:04:35 colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-11-34.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:04:52 nikodemus: Same thing is true for an already sorted list. 14:05:12 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 14:05:52 <_3b> possibly sbcl stable-sort is only faster for arrays, not lists? 14:05:57 LiamH [~nobody@pool-141-156-214-211.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:06 nikodemus: For the random case, the result is similar: 32s for SBCL, 19s for SICL 14:07:19 very nice! 14:07:25 _3b: I haven't implemented SICL sort for arrays yet. 14:07:55 <_3b> beach: yeah, i just mean that thread was talking about arrays, so might not apply to lists 14:08:14 _3b: Yes, I was thinking of two kinds of modules: fast and small, the small one would not have all those special versions. 14:08:24 _3b: Ah, OK. 14:09:01 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d98.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10:32 beach: in case you want more things to special case... when looking for an item from a sequence with test EQL, if the item is such that EQ has the same semantics (which is a quick thing to test) you can use EQ for the search, which is a lot cheaper 14:10:45 if the compiler is able to inline it, that is 14:11:29 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-221-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:16 timack [~tim@hlfx59-1-112.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 14:13:21 nikodemus: Very good idea! Thanks for the hint! 14:13:43 beach: do you have SEARCH implemented? 14:13:56 Don't know. Hold on... 14:14:32 No. 14:14:49 *stassats* replaced yesterday usage of SEARCH with KMP to get some speed up 14:15:39 I hope you did it with my automatic compiler transform 14:16:03 what's that? 14:16:51 a deftransform for (search "constant" sequence) in contrib/compiler-extras.lisp 14:16:54 stassats: So you construct an automaton from the first sequence before scanning the second one? 14:17:31 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-183-223.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:09 -!- curupa [~eduardoap@c-24-16-101-41.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: curupa] 14:18:44 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 14:19:03 brandonz [~brandon@24.38.183.236] has joined #lisp 14:20:38 beach: something like that 14:21:21 and i search the same sub-sequence among many sequences, so it turns out faster 14:22:30 I doubt that that would pay off in a general implementation of search. 14:22:57 -!- brandonz [~brandon@24.38.183.236] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:59 well, it can pay off the sequence is known at compile time 14:23:11 Sure. 14:24:41 brandonz [~brandon@24.38.183.236] has joined #lisp 14:25:15 Krystof: that deftransform is a little bit faster, though i'm using CHAR-EQUAL for tests 14:26:15 i'm planing on pre-computing both cases in the pattern 14:26:54 with EQL my search is faster 14:27:18 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:30:42 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx59-1-112.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 14:31:00 tim____ [~tim@hlfx59-1-112.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 14:31:54 -!- tim____ [~tim@hlfx59-1-112.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 14:33:44 lispm [~lispm@g224122026.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:33:55 timack [~tim@hlfx59-1-112.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 14:35:27 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:35:34 with searching string-upcase and string-downcase simultaneously it's as fast as just using eql 14:36:39 micro_ [~micro@www.bway.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:09 -!- micro_ is now known as micro- 14:39:30 nunb [~nundan@117.195.97.88] has joined #lisp 14:40:57 -!- lispm [~lispm@g224122026.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 14:41:29 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-30-105.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:46:34 ralith, no I was aware of that. llvm is more interesting (to me) than mere native code generation. 14:46:37 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:46:48 -!- nunb [~nundan@117.195.97.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:47:11 *Ralith 14:48:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-30-105.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 14:49:18 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:49:51 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 14:51:36 execve_ [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 14:51:41 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:51:57 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #lisp 14:52:33 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.124] has joined #lisp 14:53:45 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BFD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:55:16 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx59-1-112.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:55:40 rullie [~rullie@bas4-toronto47-1176149432.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:55:59 hello, does CL have a http server that supports html5? 14:56:11 dan` [~dan@c-68-32-54-29.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:27 <_3b> does 'html5' have enough of a definition to be supported? 14:56:46 -!- dan` is now known as danlentz 14:56:52 <_3b> and how does it relate to http? 14:57:32 timack [~tim@hlfx60-1-43.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 14:57:43 i don't see how server-side should matter at all, but then i don't know too much about html5 14:58:13 Well, if you were generating html5 server-side ... 15:00:05 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:00:10 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.124] has joined #lisp 15:02:14 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:01 <_3b> or phrased another way, what do you consider hunchentoot to be missing for 'html5 support'? 15:05:21 mm, does hunchentoot support push/poll/websocket? 15:06:01 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:37 <_3b> ah, not sure if hunchentoot does that well 15:10:22 <_3b> i think there are a few other servers targeted more at that sort of thing, tpd2 might be one if i remember right 15:10:41 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx60-1-43.ns.sympatico.ca] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:10:46 websocket is an API, not a protocol, from what I see 15:10:48 *_3b* has a websocket server, but it hasn't been tested in any serious use as far as i know 15:10:59 <_3b> rahul: it has a protocol as well 15:11:09 _3b: oh, where is the protocol described? 15:11:20 as in, not API protocol, but network protocol 15:11:47 _this_ is actually just the sort of question that is good for pro@common-lisp.net. "I need websockets. What CL implementations of the server-side stuff exist?" 15:12:26 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d98.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:39 <_3b> rahul: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-hybi-thewebsocketprotocol-01 i think is it 15:12:42 the standard only talks about constructors and functions and garbage collection 15:13:14 ah, ok. there's both a w3c and an ietf standard 15:13:22 dealing with different layers in the 7-layer burrito 15:13:47 <_3b> basically tcp with a messy handshake and framing on top of that once the connection is set up so the browser just sees chunks of text 15:15:01 basically looks like an optimization of HTTP to allow for multiple req/response cycles in one connection? 15:15:25 oh, and I guess the server can push data as well 15:15:52 <_3b> persistant connection, both sides can send arbitrarily 15:16:38 i guess the answer is no then 15:16:42 <_3b> without having to do the ugly comet/long polling/whatever stuff, or sending around http headers + cookies + whatever for every message 15:17:12 <_3b> rullie: more 'how much work are you willing to do' than 'no' :) 15:17:15 I see, fragmentation, too 15:17:36 so it's like TCP for TCP :P 15:17:36 _3b: well if you put it that way one can just implement one himself :) 15:17:43 <_3b> possibly also adding support for binary data at some point as well 15:17:47 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:17:49 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@187.58.91.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:17:58 <_3b> rullie: yeah, that is what i did :p 15:18:37 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:19:58 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20:22 *_3b* wonders if anything interesting changed between draft-00 and draft-01 that i need to change in my websocket server 15:20:45 maybe i will stick with symbolicweb for the moment 15:21:04 *_3b* remembers that the ietf pages have a Diff link, clicks 15:21:45 rullie: so AGPL isn't an issue for you? 15:22:45 i don't know 15:24:47 <_3b> hmm, i guess they changed a bunch of stuff again :/ 15:24:56 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has left #lisp 15:25:38 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host174-181-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:25:40 johanbev [~johanbev@44.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:17 kephas [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-76-112.w81-51.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:31:56 davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:36 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-10-176.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:35:58 -!- rme [rme@clozure-C7D358A7.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 15:35:58 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-139-149.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 15:41:16 -!- iisjmii [~iisjmii@212-252.ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:54 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 15:43:34 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA95AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:49 bgs100 [~ian@h35.38.186.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:50 -!- bgs100 [~ian@h35.38.186.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:45:50 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 15:48:21 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-11-216.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:00 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:55:02 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 15:56:10 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-9-63.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:01 timack [~tim@hlfx60-1-43.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 15:59:52 Jabberwockey [~Jens@f050064151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:17 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-34-121.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:02:25 Bronsa [~bronsa@host174-181-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:03:19 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host174-181-dynamic.6-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:36 humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:56 root_ [~root@rrcs-98-100-238-218.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:21 Hello everyone. Where can I find a good tutorial for scheme/common lisp (which ever is considered more functional) 16:22:24 ? 16:22:28 -!- root_ is now known as poincare101 16:25:35 the term functional is a misnomere... 16:25:50 what the heck is a misnomer 16:26:09 poincare101: all i know is that wikipedia about LISP speaks of scheme being "more functional" , whatever that means! 16:26:53 minion tell poincare101 about pcl 16:27:31 bah 16:27:35 minion: pcl 16:27:35 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:30:59 <[df]> I think 'less multi-paradigm' might be more accurate than 'more functional' 16:32:13 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:21 JonSmith [~jon@c-98-229-249-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:00 josemanuel [~josemanue@204.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:33:43 i dont know =) i dont see whatever the paradigms that people speak about 16:33:54 code speaks for itself is all i know ~ 16:38:51 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-151-225-193.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:39:27 poincare101: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf 16:39:42 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-139-149.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:12 there's also a good video on slime, and a good video on lisp ray tracer 16:42:40 tankrim` [~user@h-109-228-186-171.NA.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:43:07 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44:10 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:44:20 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:44:20 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 16:48:20 yeah! 16:49:02 benny` [~user@i577A358E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:30 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 16:49:44 -!- benny [~user@i577A3F5C.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:49:53 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:50:32 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.198.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:52:29 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.115.197.168] has joined #lisp 16:54:00 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BFD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:11 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-208.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:27 -!- benny` is now known as beny 16:57:28 -!- gnooth [~test@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:57:30 -!- beny is now known as benny 16:57:45 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-208.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 16:58:03 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-208.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:00 ignas_ [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 17:00:41 gnooth [~test@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:20 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:07:03 homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-42-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:07 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-42-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:45 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-87-79-42-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:55 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-42-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:08:22 -!- sie [sie@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has quit [Quit: Brb, dianetics.] 17:08:40 sie [sie@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has joined #lisp 17:09:38 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-71.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:09:48 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-71.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:10:04 abugosh [~Adium@static-71-179-170-41.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:10 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.154.180.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 17:12:24 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-42-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:13:25 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:36 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-42-232.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:13 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 17:14:52 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:35:44 -!- abugosh [~Adium@static-71-179-170-41.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:36:13 -!- JonSmith [~jon@c-98-229-249-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:40:41 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.124] has joined #lisp 17:41:00 -!- humasect [~humasect@S01060018f870b75e.rd.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:43 *sigh* 17:49:51 Good evening everyone! 17:49:57 hullo beach 17:50:54 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 17:50:54 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 17:50:54 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 17:52:04 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.124] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:52:20 wbooze: Terminology is always arbitrary. My favorite example is a subclass of rewrite systems named "simple rewrite systems", but there is nothing simple about them. We just have to accept established terminology because of tradition, or we cannot communicate usefully. "Functional" in the domain of programming languages is well established. 17:53:45 poincare101: If you are interested in functional programming, I suggest you look at neither Scheme nor Common Lisp, and instead look at the ML family languages or even better Haskell. 17:54:09 functional is understandable, but "dynamic programming" is confusing 17:55:13 stassats: especially since that particular name refers to a well-established family of algorithms, and has nothing to do with programming. 17:55:47 and then "dynamic programming language" adds more confusion 17:56:50 stassats: To my students, I define it to mean "a programming language whose semantics are defined as a sequence of interactions that may modify a global environment" 17:57:38 stassats: ... so that it has to be semantically meaningful to define a function that was already defined, or redifine a class that was already defined. 17:58:36 stassats: But I fully admit that my definition is totally arbitrary. It helps communication for the duration of the course, though. 17:58:37 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.50.124] has joined #lisp 17:58:38 stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 17:58:41 i'd say it's "normal programming language", and C is a static programming language 17:58:44 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:58:47 or stiff programming language 17:58:54 Heh! 18:00:53 stassats: You are playing the game that I often point out to my students. Some people (like Cardelli) use strong/weak typing to their advantage, because nobody wants to be weak, and we counter with static/dynamic because everyone wants to be dynamic. It's a political naming game. 18:01:33 stassats: "rigid" would be nice. 18:02:27 rigid implies to me robust, which i wouldn't say about C 18:02:40 It does? 18:03:05 To me it has only negative connotations. 18:04:08 "brittle" 18:04:22 Oh, nice! 18:04:51 I can already see myself using terms like that in my course. 18:05:58 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@204.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 18:07:30 "rigid" has a very specific negative connotation in english. 18:10:18 there should be a "buzzword programming" paradigm 18:10:18 uhhh 18:10:23 i think Java fits it well 18:10:23 i'm sooo spaced...' 18:10:53 beach: It depends on the dimension, C is very much not rigid if comes down to memory poking 18:11:05 stassats: I think that meme is well encapsulated by the notion of "enterprise ready". :) 18:12:12 and the notion of 'static' or 'rigid' languages are well referenced idiomatically by the notion of "bondage and discipline" wrt some core aspect of their use. 18:13:01 but it's all cultural 18:13:02 c2 wiki has many discussions in that vein 18:22:51 stassats: dynamic programming is easily understandable if you know the history. 18:24:11 tcr: You just fell in the trap, similar to the one people fall in when they say that "oh, but those rewrite systems are not simple", or "that type system is not weak". 18:26:01 tcr: I think my message was clear: terminology is arbitrary, and we just have to accept what is established, except when established terminology was invented for political reasons (strong, hygienic, ...) in which case we should feel free to invent counter terminology. 18:26:02 mdh [~user@cpe-98-155-85-188.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:31 pkhuong: there is one source claiming that "dynamic" was chosen because it sounded impressive and positive 18:26:50 Thorn [~Thorn@unaffiliated/thorn] has joined #lisp 18:27:35 -!- davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:27:36 stassats: I think it has to do with the use of "programming" as used in operations research, like linear programming, integer programming, etc. 18:28:18 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-63-83-105.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 18:28:39 beach: What's the point of inventing counter terminology? 18:29:00 Inventing terminology which is better to the point, less confusing, sure 18:29:09 but just as biased terminology? 18:31:17 My point was that one term often only describes one dimension and neglects others. 18:32:23 tcr: Oh, it is very important. Who would want to use a programming language like CL labeled as being unhygienic and weak? 18:32:28 Hygienic is pretty ok if you only look at inadvertent variable capture, otoh it's less powerful, or rather more constraining 18:32:33 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-45-242.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:34:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-30-105.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:34:40 tcr: Terminology is invented for political reasons by people with an agenda. It is perfectly valid to invent counter terminology to prevent their agenda from becoming the only truth, especially if your personal preferences are threatened by that choice of terminology. 18:35:27 Why not try to improve rather than going in the opposite direction? 18:35:31 tcr: Perhaps you are smart enough to abstract away the choice of words, but the vast majority of people in the world can't do that. 18:36:46 tcr: How do you improve on a situation where established terminology considers CL to be "weak" and "unhygienic". By saying "yes, I agree, but..."? 18:37:50 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:38:24 rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:32 Why is it weak? because of change-class? 18:39:46 -!- brandonz [~brandon@24.38.183.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:40:05 tcr: Because "strong" typing is defined by Cardelli et all to mean that the compiler can prove that the program is type safe. 18:41:05 tcr: So any dynamically typed programming language (as we have chosen to call them by inventing counter terminology) is "weak" by this definition. Do you still agree that it's a good one? 18:41:44 My understaning of counter terminology seems to be wrong then 18:42:09 tcr: "counter terminology" was a piece of terminology that I just invented. 18:42:47 is it counter terminology by itself? 18:42:53 indeed. 18:42:59 For me counter terminology would be if instead of calling it "dynamically typed" (which has a technical rather than political background), calling it "flexibly typed" or some such 18:43:21 *sigh* You still don't get it do you? 18:43:30 Ditto 18:44:03 tcr: Is it plausible to you that scientifically trained people might use their superior training to invent words for what they like that sound positive, and words for what they do not like to sound negative? 18:44:52 Is it plausible to you that I may be talking of something else? 18:45:11 fine 18:45:14 I think we ran into a deadend, let's move on :-) 18:45:33 make a knot in the curve.... 18:45:41 so you may find back.... 18:45:42 lol 18:46:23 *beach* goes back to writing that email he should have written some time ago. 18:48:28 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:49:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-38.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:49:48 -!- boaz_ [~boaz@125.167.140.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50:07 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:52:47 -!- colbseton [~colbseton@AClermont-Ferrand-156-1-11-34.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 18:55:52 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 18:56:27 daniel [~daniel@p5B327910.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:29 carlocci [~nes@93.37.196.47] has joined #lisp 18:59:58 vishsingh [~vishsingh@bas2-toronto10-2925113994.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:00:16 -!- daniel_ [~daniel@p5B3279C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:00:58 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 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[~gcv@ool-457569c4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 20:07:38 -!- krzyhkr [~krzyhkr@117.199.3.178] has left #lisp 20:08:03 -!- ASau` [~user@77.246.230.215] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:09:42 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:10:54 -!- Thorn [~Thorn@unaffiliated/thorn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:03 Jubb [~ghost@129.21.105.38] has joined #lisp 20:12:04 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:38 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.120.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:12:49 help 20:13:42 *humasect* does 20:13:50 danlentz: with what? 20:14:58 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:14:59 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 20:16:13 when creating a string from a sequence of characters, which method is preferred/better: (coerce seq 'string) or (concatenate 'string seq) ? 20:17:19 obviously not the latter 20:17:57 hmm... well, I somehow ended up using concatenate every time i needed that... 20:17:58 loxs [~loxs@85-130-37-174.2073285806.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:31 Abezethibou [~user@212.253.214.72] has joined #lisp 20:18:48 -!- ehu` [~ehuels@62.140.137.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:24:36 Abezethi` [~user@212.253.214.72] has joined #lisp 20:27:13 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:27:30 Blkt [~user@net-93-151-225-193.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 20:28:32 -!- Abezethibou [~user@212.253.214.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:30:10 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-tbfslalsidwrwlsv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:05 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.114.198.7.homesurf.thn-ag3.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:07 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 20:35:10 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.154.180.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit 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timeout: 252 seconds] 20:59:14 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:04 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:01:23 Has anyone ever used Lenet5 with the Lush Programming Language? 21:02:20 -!- Jabber_ [~Jens@f050067012.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:02:29 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 21:03:14 aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has joined #lisp 21:10:06 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:06 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:10:06 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 21:12:59 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:03 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:15:10 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-151-225-193.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:15:37 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:53 NerdCore: lush isn't actually on topic. this channel is pretty much just about common lisp. 21:21:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-38.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:17 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5B28532F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:23:01 -!- stis_ [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:19 Abezethibou [~user@212.253.214.72] has joined #lisp 21:25:36 -!- Abezethibou [~user@212.253.214.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25:56 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:26:11 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440354.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 21:26:14 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:27:55 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA95AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:28:18 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:33 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-20-3.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 21:30:49 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:11 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-139-149.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 21:36:35 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:36:44 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:41 JohnnyL [excellent_@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:44 -!- JohnnyL [excellent_@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 21:46:20 m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-237-143.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:55 is this a valid elephant store controller spec for the current version of elephant: (defparameter *repository-spec* (list :postmodern (list :postgresql "localhost.localdomain" "database-name-here" "password-here")))? 21:48:17 darkmag [~vfalico@ip-94-112-36-51.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 21:48:24 completely new to elephant and wanting to use it with postgres 21:48:57 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-61-51.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 21:49:27 -!- aidalgol [~user@202.36.179.68] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:49:45 francogrex [~user@109.130.155.124] has joined #lisp 21:50:28 (code-char 0) shouldbe #\Null or #\Nul (what's the difference anyway) ? 21:50:47 when I use that spec I get "Store controller init function not registered for data store POSTMODERN." from sldb 21:51:04 sorry for the newb question 21:51:56 francogrex: those are typical, yes. the difference is in the spelling :) 21:53:49 probably just need to check out my-config.sexp to make sure postmodern is setup there 21:54:35 ok, silly question it was; but once one is bored , starts looking at insignificant details. 21:55:45 m7d: did you post something for people to look at? 21:56:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:56:18 francogrex: hi, just my respository spec for elephant/postmodern 21:57:02 ok; have not used that sorry. maybe best contact the developers/maintainers 21:57:04 francogrex: shortly after posting it I think I probably need to set up my-config.sexp to have elephant work with postmodern and then things will probably work 21:57:24 francogrex: thanks 21:57:53 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:30 *m7d* reading elephant dev mailing list 22:08:11 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.105.38] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 22:09:41 -!- younder [~jthing@124.202.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:52 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-1-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:11 francogrex: that would depend on whether (code-char 4) is #\Eot or #\End_of_Text. 22:12:41 -!- tankrim` is now known as tankrim 22:13:02 -!- tankrim [~user@h-109-228-186-171.NA.cust.bahnhof.se] has quit [Changing host] 22:13:02 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 22:19:43 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.114.198.7.homesurf.thn-ag3.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:22:04 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0BFD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:23:49 gonzojive [~red@c-76-126-115-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:23 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:02 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 22:42:07 Is there some place more appropriate than here to ask questions about things having to do with Kernel? 22:44:37 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.155.124] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:44 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:47 which kernel ? 22:52:55 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 22:52:55 the programming language 22:53:04 oh 22:53:22 theres a programming language named kernel ? 22:53:25 yes 22:53:31 puuh 22:53:40 why that name ? 22:53:50 it's a kernel language. 22:53:56 isn't that confusing the hell out of users of linux ? 22:53:57 lol 22:53:58 (at least, that's my assumption) 22:54:57 one more confusing thing isn't going to change anything 22:55:50 davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:14 Let's create a language and name it windows. 23:01:21 heh. 23:02:15 i imagine how angry at Lisp are people with speech impediments 23:02:38 Yes, from time to time one of them comes here... 23:02:45 Poor chaps. 23:02:52 make a language called Lithp to be PC ? 23:03:31 Perhaps we should use numbers more often. Perhaps IBM was right. 23:04:01 Instead of talking of strong/weak or static/dynamic languages, let's say that PL/5489 is 124 while PL/1248 is 346. 23:04:09 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:04:52 let's just have a single language called A Programming Language 23:05:13 Or the first one PL/1 ? 23:05:55 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:06:12 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:12 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 23:06:12 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 23:09:43 -!- NerdCore [~Neuronal@ip68-2-213-253.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 23:10:38 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:11:20 -!- gonzojive [~red@c-76-126-115-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gonzojive] 23:11:55 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-139-149.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:18 gonzojive [~red@c-76-126-115-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:04 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:23:16 -!- darkmag [~vfalico@ip-94-112-36-51.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:25:12 vsingh [~vishsingh@bas2-toronto10-2925113376.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:25:58 -!- vishsingh [~vishsingh@bas2-toronto10-2925113994.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:35:03 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:31 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756d98.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37:06 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-66-113.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 23:37:46 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-90-203.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:38:03 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:44:42 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:53 -!- navigator [~navigator@p54897BAE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 23:51:31 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:53:21 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:56:59 csl [~christian@85.84-234-202.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:11 In CFFI, is there any way to figure out the base-type from a type that was defctyped? 23:59:09 -!- _____s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving]