00:00:43 -!- m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-237-143.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:00:43 -!- m7d_ is now known as m7d 00:04:57 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 00:05:01 MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has joined #lisp 00:05:55 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:11:07 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:11:36 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:13:09 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-183.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 00:22:17 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.254] has joined #lisp 00:23:05 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 00:24:21 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 00:24:58 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:26:53 hello. does anybody know how to install the fastcgi-support of clisp under debian (squeeze)? there does not seem to be a package for it, but there is a package for clisp and a package called "clisp-dev" which should be there to build modules. 00:30:21 -!- jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:46 i don't know, sorry 00:36:32 -!- sepp2k_ [~sexy@p548CD719.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: sepp2k_] 00:38:11 i tried to build a newer version of clisp myself, but it fails, it doesnt find all the libraries (even though I installed them and they are on the right place) - and I dont want to investigate on that now. 00:38:31 coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-238-210.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:38 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:41:41 -!- bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:42:52 but there is SBCL and hucnehtoot! 00:42:59 schoppenhauer: is there any particular reason you're using clisp and fastcgi over, say, sbcl and hunchentoot? 00:44:18 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:49:07 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:50:54 drewc: except that I already have a fully-configured apache, and only want to run a few small scripts, and except I only have a vps and sbcl needs to much initial overcommitted memory, causing other processes to die - no. 00:51:11 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 00:51:11 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 00:51:11 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 00:51:31 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:52:11 drewc: i just want a few small scripts and hunchentoot is a full-blown webserver, to make it short 00:53:19 save for the fact that it's a sad VPS that can't run sbcl, those are good reasons. 00:53:46 well i can run sbcl using --dynamic-space-size 00:54:15 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:17 but either I have to set this to a very high value, or it fails after short time. 00:56:57 well, i run cliki.net, for example, on a 128 mb Xen box running a fairly vanilla sbcl... maybe it's an issue with whatever vps software your provider is using... i've only ever used Xen 00:58:09 my provider uses openvz 00:58:17 => no nested paging 00:58:31 that is, all the machines share the same address space. 00:58:39 timack [~tim@hlfx53-1-159.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp 00:58:53 and hence it must not be too large. there is enough memory, but not for every process. 00:59:17 megajosh2 [~megajosh2@pool-96-241-38-130.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:12 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:03:17 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:28 i just wonder why the maintainers have dropped it 01:03:33 in clisp 01:05:14 Yuuhi` [benni@p54839F4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:54 hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:23 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483A395.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:07:02 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 01:08:50 schoppenhauer, you can try ccl instead of sbcl if memory is your limiting factor. It's still pretty fast, and makes for smaller images. 01:13:17 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:13:26 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:57 Fare: hm. as I said, I would like to have fastcgi if thats possible - I have other stuff thats not written in lisp running in an apache already. 01:16:30 -!- Kaer [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:26:10 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:21 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p54839F4C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:30:49 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@46.204.192.61.tokyo.bflets.alpha-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:34:47 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 01:35:15 Just looking for an opinion... if I were to learn any lisp first (I'd prefer to learn Scheme), would it be a bad idea to learn Racket over a more traditional Scheme first? 01:35:40 Some of the stuff I've seen compared to other scheme code seems a little odd 01:35:42 <_3b> #scheme might be a better place to ask, we'd say learn CL first :) 01:36:13 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:36:18 Oh durr 01:36:22 -!- megajosh2 [~megajosh2@pool-96-241-38-130.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:37:39 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Quit: felipe] 01:39:19 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 01:39:27 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:42:29 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:44:20 k2t0f12d__ [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 01:45:07 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:45:34 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:53 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:20 -!- k2t01f12d [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:48:42 bigjust` [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:36 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 01:50:06 -!- timack [~tim@hlfx53-1-159.ns.sympatico.ca] has left #lisp 01:50:19 -!- bigjust [~user@adsl-074-232-230-165.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:51:24 schoppenhauer, why not just use apache reverse proxy? 01:51:40 Fare: still, hunchentoot is big. 01:51:51 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 01:52:21 Fare: clisp is small and nice and would be sufficient ... if the debian-maintainers included fastcgi. 01:52:37 Fare: What's your "scribble thing"? 01:52:50 kibo returns. 01:52:57 eli: we've discussed that long ago 01:53:08 and it was called scribble long before I had heard of yours 01:53:28 Fare: Ah -- I vaguely remember something that is not related at all. 01:53:42 eli: http://www.cliki.net/scribble 01:54:00 it's not "not related at all" this it's a variant of the same general idea. 01:54:09 s/this/since/ 01:54:18 but yeah, the syntax is different. 01:54:29 Very, if it's shooting at scribe. 01:54:53 yeah, it's basically a variant of the scribe syntax. 01:54:54 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:54:59 How is it "very" different? 01:55:27 execve_ [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 01:55:34 instead of @foo{bar} I have [:foo bar] 01:56:01 I don't call that "very" different, but YMMV 01:56:18 powerje [~powerje@adsl-75-60-229-136.dsl.wotnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:31 m7d_ [~lriley@pool-71-102-237-143.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:19 and instead of @foo[1 2]{3 4} I have [:(foo 1 2) 3 4] 01:57:32 once again, not "very" different. 01:57:52 Fare: I can start asking more questions, but I'd be very surprised if it's getting near the scribble reader -- I did look into scribe, and it was extremely limited and much less convenient. 01:58:13 my cl scribble is much less limited than scribe. 01:58:20 but mostly backward compatible 01:58:25 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:58:30 What does [:foo bar baz] read as? 01:58:53 -!- m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-237-143.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:58:53 -!- m7d_ is now known as m7d 01:59:00 (after all, it started as me porting my documents from bigloo scribe to my own cl exscribe as scribe was being end of lifed) 01:59:12 same as @foo{bar baz} 01:59:18 (foo "bar baz") 01:59:58 Fare: what about '[:foo bar baz] ? 02:00:09 '(foo "bar baz") 02:00:13 OK. 02:00:23 How about [:foo bar] ? 02:00:26 actually if you enable the preprocessing, it's '(foo (pp "bar baz")) 02:00:36 ikki [~ikki@189.247.120.252] has joined #lisp 02:00:52 (That's a mistake (that I did in an early attempt)...) 02:01:26 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:01:45 preprocessing is a mistake? how so? 02:02:18 [:foo bar] is apparently (foo "bar") stripping the leading space. 02:02:37 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:02:40 It's a mistake to have a reader syntax that plants its own identifiers into the form. It leads to surprises such as that use in a quote. 02:03:02 so it should be preprocessed at read-time? 02:03:20 No, you should define `foo' to do the preprocessing instead -- works much better. 02:03:40 Anyway, what's the equivalent of @foo{ bar } ? 02:03:43 in racket can't those identifiers be lexically bound to the correct environment somehow? 02:03:56 *eli* will brb 02:03:58 what does @foo{ bar } do? 02:04:14 you can do (foo [ bar ]) if that's what you want. 02:04:58 anyway, the preprocessor thing can be disabled. 02:05:33 and you can insert your own symbol instead of scribble:pp 02:06:57 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:09:29 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 02:10:02 *Fare* wonders which is more work: implementing a decent module system for CL, or implementing a decent CL for Racket. 02:12:04 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.120.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:12:31 sentry [~sentry@109.sub-75-199-212.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 02:15:32 -!- coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-238-210.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:17:05 Fare: I mean whatever form that reads as (foo " bar"). 02:17:50 that would be (foo " bar") 02:18:26 Fare: Using your reader./ 02:18:40 or for most operators you can do [:(foo " ") bar] 02:18:53 Bleh. 02:19:04 What about (foo "\nbar")? 02:19:12 assuming the effect of foo on multiple string arguments is same as when you concatenate strings. 02:19:31 (One reason for "bleh".) 02:19:59 what's wrong with (foo[ bar]) when that's what you want? 02:20:18 usually these cases are special enough that special syntax is OK. 02:20:24 Um, not much, except that that's a different notation. 02:20:30 You want to be able to do everything without a single paren? 02:21:18 Yes, except for the parens around the whole textual content. But I'd buy that (foo [ bar]) too -- except that it's a different syntax from [:foo bar] . 02:21:39 Such differences are exactly the kind of thing that kill these readers. 02:22:03 Another example: what do you do with multi-line text? 02:22:31 Specifically, do the spaces at the beginning of lines get included in the result? 02:22:32 sure. Once again, it was "optimized" for HTML syntax, where you usually want to strip those spaces, and when you don't, you can add an explicit " " in front 02:22:43 yes, they do 02:22:44 Bleh, again. 02:23:11 So this means lots of mysterious spaces in the output that really follow the structure of the code that generates them... 02:23:33 well, once again HTML doesn't care. 02:23:33 ...and this makes it unsuitable for cases where spaces matter -- such as general preprocessing, or dealing with 
 contexts.
02:23:45  ... 
 contexts.
02:24:16  and if you do care, you could hack the preprocessor to do that (but indeed, I don't remember things like initial column to pass them to the preprocessor, maybe I could)
02:24:24  Last time I looked, that was an uncovered corner in the Cheetah thing, where they had some vague plan to deal with indentation in some unclear way, because people wanted to use it for preprocessing code.
02:24:33  Cheetah?
02:24:45  Hacking the preprocessor is out of the question.
02:24:52 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-137-119.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp
02:25:01  I sometimes use pre context, and as in the target html, I lose indentation at that point.
02:25:05  I find that in general only very few geeks are geeks enough to care about such things.
02:25:14  What's Cheetah?
02:25:22  (Cheetah is the Python preprocessor thing.)
02:25:25  s/the/a/
02:25:45  Also, the important question is what happens with nested texts?
02:26:04  [:foo bar baz [:foo2 blah blah] quux]
02:26:24  I thought about the indentation thingie, but decided that I wouldn't impose some python-like indentation on everyone - it's a lot of work and not very lispy anyway.
02:26:37  you probably mean ,[:foo2  ...]
02:26:47  Bleh^2.
02:27:00  So what does [:foo blah, blah] read as?
02:27:04  so it's (foo "bar baz " (foo2 "blah blah") " quux")
02:27:13  (foo "blah, blah")
02:27:23  it's compatible with scribe on that point.
02:27:32  the escape is either ,( or ,[
02:27:47  Yeah, ok.
02:28:03 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
02:28:04  Like I said -- scrible like => very far from (our) scribble...
02:28:15  s/scrible like/scribe like/
02:28:46  What about a form that reads as: (foo "[:foo blah]") ?
02:28:47  I don't claim I can compete with your stuff in terms of sophistication.
02:29:08  [:foo \[:foo blah\]]
02:29:32  And so you end up in backslash hell?
02:29:49  For example, what does [:foo blah \blah] read as?
02:30:02  but I do work as a simple CL extension with backends to most popular CL tag-managing engines.
02:30:43  \b is same as b in this case
02:30:51  Ugh.
02:31:02  I think only , [ ] \ are treated specially
02:31:05  That does mean backslash hell.
02:31:35  Best example: how does the documentation of the system look like, assuming its in the system?
02:31:54  Including describing its own syntax, and the way you need to use backslashes sometimes.
02:32:24  eli: your idea of 'hell' is extremely strange.
02:32:32  documentation? what's that?
02:32:37  a single escape isn't really much to ask.
02:32:40  Fare: A sign of a bad quoting system (which is basically everything I'd ever seen) is that you write the documentation and keep looking at the output to make sure that you got the right number of backslashes...
02:33:01  in this case, I'd have a string that I'd eval
02:33:04  or something.
02:33:22  Ralith: Have you ever written Emacs regexps that deal with latex sources?  Or regexps that deal with regexps?  -- That's the backslash hell that I'm talking about.
02:33:34  eli: what do you propose in such a case?
02:33:54  Fare: Yeah, resorting to strings is a last resort kind of quotation.
02:34:20  eli: and these aren't that.
02:34:32  how do you do it?
02:34:42  It's pretty popular in most system, because they are such a mess of different rules -- and getting back to the basic underlying langauge gives you a guarantee that you know the rules...
02:34:58  (And that would apply to anyone who is not you, that wants to use your reader.)
02:35:18  Ralith: I'm sorry, you'll need to clarify "these" and "that" in that sentence.
02:35:40  eli: I am going to bake a cake instead.
02:35:57  my original sin was to do things in CL, that doesn't have a community that would easily adopt beneficial new syntax.
02:36:24  therefore, I have had no user to complain about things being unfit for their uses.
02:36:37  actually, I doubt there is any other user but myself.
02:36:53  Ralith: "Focus on something different" -- another sign of backslash hell.
02:37:10  hahaha
02:37:11  and my cl scribble fits my needs of extending scribe in a way that fixes my major gripes with it.
02:37:18  Fare: Yeah, that's what I meant in this being very hard to do --
02:37:33  and I appreciate your doing it, really.
02:37:34  the real challenge is getting to a point where others can use your syntax.
02:37:50  It's *very* hard to do.  I've had at least 4 serious attempts at it.
02:38:18  Fare: BTW, the scribble (ours) solution for any quote-hell is a modification on the braces:
02:38:27  I didn't spend too much time in scribble itself. Much more time in that Exscribe engine. And much more time writing my various essays.
02:38:33  @foo|{blah @bar{blah} blah}|
02:39:04  oh, you're multi-braced, like perl regexps.
02:39:24  that fits naturally in the Racket world, not so much in the CL world.
02:39:58  that's clever, though.
02:40:00  Fare: Sure it does -- the scribble reader is just a readtable thing.
02:40:17  sure, I could do it.
02:40:31  I just never had the urge to do it, but yes, it's feasible.
02:41:29  That said, since I don't have any user or prospective user, I'd rather just keep using it for myself and try to imagine a completely different problem to solve that hasn't already been solved by someone clever like you :-)
02:42:25  Wait - why is the internal @ not expanded? Because | is a special verbatim paren?
02:42:51  BTW, a natural question would be how do I quote *that* -- the "@foo|{...}|" thing.  That's where the flexible open/close things are relevant, for example @foo|=={blah blah}==|
02:43:31  So the regexp is |=*{ |
02:43:51  Yes, the | makes the internal context use @|
02:44:05  So, @foo|{blah |@blah blah}| reads as (foo "blah " blah " blah")
02:44:21  It can have any number of non-alphanumeric characters there.
02:44:38  And they're mirrored -- so @foo|<<<{ blah }>>>| can be used too.
02:44:54  (But that's a rule that I regret, since it adds complexity that nobody remembers.)
02:45:05  another limiting difference is that plt scribble has @ as the escape introducer in both lisp and scribble context, whereas cl scribble has [ as introducer in lisp context, and ,[ in scribble context.
02:45:36  my introducer is the same as the initial bracket in lisp context.
02:45:36  That's not limiting -- it's a very intentional feature.
02:45:52  well, it makes multi-bracketing less natural
02:45:59  Huh?
02:46:30  Any one know where the comp.lang.lisp FAQ is these days?  My link to the "new" one hosted by csr21 is gone.
02:47:03 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
02:48:49  and | already has a meaning in lisp context
02:48:53  in CL
02:49:39  I suppose I could use a [===| syntax instead of your |===[
02:50:19  Fare: So how is our reader's solution limiting, if we don't have this problem?
02:50:28  no, not yours - mine.
02:50:37 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:50:41  Ah.
02:50:52  You could implement our reader, you know...
02:51:04  There's someone who did half of it, somewhere.
02:51:05  I know, but then I'd rather adopt the whole toolchain
02:51:09  in CL?
02:51:15 -!- davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:51:16  Yes.
02:51:32  And you don't really need the rest of the toolchain to get the benefits of the reader.
02:51:33  the reason I stick to mine is because of megabytes of text I have that uses this syntax
02:52:08  Even more -- since you already have tools for the rest of the job, this will probably make your life easier, since you only need to change the actual text that you have, but otherwise leave your system as is.
02:52:27  Changing the text is probably easy.
02:52:37  Most of it could be just emacs macroing.
02:54:19  I already get the benefits of the syntax, and I'm writing down your suggestions in case I need it.
02:54:57  yup, I could do it as a lot of emacs macroing over hundreds of files. But why go through the trouble at all?
02:55:28  To better mankind, of course.
02:55:42  of course :-)
02:56:31  OK, I only have 224 .scr files around under my home directory.
02:56:57  ThereYouGo.
02:57:06  If you do the reader, I'll do your files.
02:57:26  that's only 7 mega bytes, 160 klines.
02:57:33  deal.
02:57:54  you certainly do want people to use your syntax, don't you?
02:57:55  Doesn't sound too bad.
02:58:09  Yes -- like I said above...
02:58:13  and I do want to use the same syntax as other people.
02:58:27  But seriously, I think that there would be a huge benefit to all sexpr languages if they had the same benefit with texts.
02:58:35  do you know where the other guy's kernel of an implementation is?
02:58:59  is this all I need to know about the syntax? http://docs.racket-lang.org/scribble/reader.html
02:59:06  And BTW, testing these things is easy -- just use your reader and dump the resulting sexprs; then run the translated texts through the other reader and see that its the same results.
02:59:40  what other reader?
03:00:08  Read your current files, dump results of reading foo.scr into foo.sexp1;
03:00:10  do you have a set of unit test data?
03:00:14  Implement new reader;
03:00:21  oh, ok.
03:00:23  Send me files for translation;
03:00:34  Read translated files and dump into foo.sexp2
03:00:40  Compare *.sexp{1,2}
03:00:54  except they are programs, so it would rather be -- save the existing output, transform, recompute output, compare outputs.
03:01:26  No -- that's why its easy to change the reader:
03:01:26  I may also start dumping a whole bunch of crap I kept for scribe compatibility at a more semantic level.
03:01:31  you just need to compare the sources.
03:01:38  The rest of the system is still yours.
03:02:11  Yeah -- that page has "everything", but it's probably better to start at the scheme workshop paper I wrote on it.
03:02:12  sure, that's an independent change.
03:02:18 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
03:02:19  URL ?
03:03:15  considering I estimate my user base to be 1, is it OK if I keep the name scribble and change the syntax to fit the Racket Scribble?
03:03:20  http://barzilay.org/research.html -- first one.
03:03:33  btw, I *believe* I may have been using the name "scribble" before you, but no matter.
03:04:01  Well, we debated a bit on what should "scribble" be -- the reader syntax, the system or both.  We ended up with both.
03:04:28  I called my reader scribble, and my system exscribe.
03:04:35  So if you keep scribble but change to our syntax, there would be less confusion overall...
03:04:46  yup.
03:05:00  Yeah -- you'd have a scribble syntax (single meaning), and the documentation system is exscribe.
03:05:37 -!- sentry [~sentry@109.sub-75-199-212.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
03:08:04  (I don't know when I wrote scribble, but it already existed in 2005 when I imported it into monotone)
03:08:38  I see a version 1.19 dated 2003-09-10
03:09:47  It probably predated our use of the name.
03:10:05  just to make things more confusing.
03:10:38  My initial revision is from 2006-05-17 -- so I probably started calling it scribble at the beginning of 2006.
03:12:13  do you know where to download the existing partial implementation if any?
03:12:36  Let me search my mailbox.
03:15:22  Fare: The guy's name is Daniel Herring -- do you know him?
03:15:42  (Apparently, I have code that he sent me, so I don't know if he made it public anywhere.)
03:16:46  Oh, yes, I know Daniel.
03:16:52  He lives around Boston, too.
03:17:31  BTW, is there anyone at NEU I could tax an hour of to pin down flyers I wrote for the Lisp meeting with Hari P (and maybe future meetings, too)
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03:18:23  I can put some at the dept.
03:18:33  Probably doesn't matter in other buildings anyway.
03:18:43  Or I can dump them on him...
03:18:45  do you prefer .ps, .pdf or .abw ?
03:20:33  pdf
03:21:04  But if its a file that you have, then just mail it to him -- he'll be much more reliable than I will...
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03:22:30  mailed.
03:24:12 *Fare* googles and finds http://www.mail-archive.com/libcl-devel@lists.libcl.com/msg00000.html
03:24:17  anything else?
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03:25:54  Ugh.
03:25:59  Yes, that's it.
03:26:14  I missed the fact that it was sent to the list too.
03:26:43  any slime hackers here? Happen to know where the code for highlighting current parameter in autodoc is?
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03:31:03 *Fare* wonders what is good form: make the thing wholly incompatible? enable both syntaxes at once using the old API? make a new incompatible API that enables the new syntax, put the old syntax in a different lisp package?
03:31:44  should I assume no one's using it just because I got no mail about it, even though there has been a debian package for years?
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03:32:56  You could just call it "exscribe"...  and leave the old package.
03:33:34 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
03:34:30  wait -- but exscribe is going to use the new scribble syntax...
03:34:43  or, should I enable both syntaxes at once?
03:37:01  I'll think about that later.
03:37:10  first, sleep
03:37:15  That works too.
03:38:13  nity nite!
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03:55:11 katherine [70c8b6ca@gateway/web/freenode/ip.112.200.182.202] has joined #lisp
03:55:39  Hi, I'm self-learning Common Lisp right now. Was wondering if anyone here has any tips on learning it? Thanks.
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04:04:34  katherine: practical common lisp is a free book that's often recommended
04:05:06  it's relatively recent too, whereas most the other books were written before the web :)
04:05:24  @scottj By APress?
04:05:38 <_3b> minion: tell katherine about pcl
04:05:39  katherine: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
04:05:46  katherine: yeah
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04:06:36  katherine: write a program in CL that you recently wrote in another language.
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04:13:03  katherine: I started on my own a year ago, PCL was the best for getting productive soon. Touretzky's A Gentle Introduction To Symbolic Computing is good for explaining some basics
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04:19:11  Does anyone here have an ebook copy of PCL?
04:19:21  Apress' link is no longer available.
04:19:28  Would like to read it offline. Many thanks.
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04:25:59  Good morning everyone!
04:26:25  katherine: Ask gigamonkey, he probably knows.
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04:27:32  I've decided to just save each page. ;-)
04:27:37  Thanks, @beach
04:27:55  katherine: http://www.computer-books.us/lisp_0004.php
04:28:50  @askatasuna, I tried that link before. Unfortunately, when I extracted ZIP file...naddah. But thanks, anyway.
04:30:07  katherine: i have it here, both in pdf and html form. i'm willing to forward that by email.
04:30:21  Thanks!
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04:42:37  another convert
04:42:55  our work never ends
04:42:58  :p
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05:18:08  !rules
05:18:18 -!- shootgun is now known as lisp_noob
05:18:36  Are noob questions welcome?
05:19:38 <_3b> as long as you learn from the answers, yes
05:19:50  _3b, thanks.
05:20:22  i am using emacs with slime on ubuntu. Do you know if it has an autocomplete?
05:20:32  I could not find anything on google.
05:20:43 <_3b> it has a few
05:21:03  _3b, how do i get it to work? Every key combination i know did not work.
05:21:22 <_3b> try M-tab (or esc tab if your window manager eats M-tab)
05:21:52 <_3b> (where M is short for meta which is usually the key labelled 'Alt' if you aren't familiar with emacs key names)
05:22:37 <_3b> C-c tab might also work
05:23:02  thanks, esc-tab worked. Window manager was eating alt-tab :-)
05:23:19  lisp_noob: unrelated, but if you're going to use emacs i highly recommend switching the capslock and ctrl keys. also look up  ergo-emacs mode
05:23:27 <_3b> C-M-i is another alternative
05:24:03 <_3b> or M-C-i i suppose is a better way to describe it, since C-i is just another way to say tab
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05:25:07  _3b, thanks, M-C-i works charming. also easy to press.
05:25:19  askatasuna, thanks for your suggestion, i will check them out.
05:25:52  Btw, is there any high-end editor which also has slime integration?
05:25:58  do you all use emacs?
05:26:21 <_3b> (and esc translates to meta, so M-tab, esc tab, M-C-i, esc C-i all look effectively like M-tab to emacs)
05:26:33 *askatasuna* feels shame for using vim, but has not had the time this semester to learn emacs
05:26:54  by high-end i mean more close to microsoft products.
05:27:10 <_3b> most of us use emacs, some use vim
05:27:55 <_3b> there is also an eclips plugin (cusp), IDEs from various commercial lisp vendors, ccl IDE, climacs, hemlock
05:28:40  Thanks for your suggestions, i will check them :-)
05:29:27 <_3b> also mclide, able, probably a few more
05:30:34 *_3b* isn't exactly 'suggesting' things, just enumerating :)
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05:48:28  < lisp_noob> by high-end i mean more close to microsoft products. <-- Oh how I laughed.
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06:08:53  I was already laughing at: "is there any high-end editor which also has slime integration?" since emacs is the higher end editor...
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07:14:20  Good morning everyone!
07:14:26  franki^: That was very funny indeed!
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07:49:09  good morning
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08:09:09  morning
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09:06:27  Good morning!
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09:08:05  G'day everyone!
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09:26:54  minion: help
09:26:55  There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
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09:33:38  hello plage
09:33:45  hey mvilleneuve
09:34:33  mvilleneuve: You never told me where the new office is located.
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09:42:53 *plage* guesses that it's secret.
09:45:15  plage: it's downtown Pessac, next to the tram stop and the train station
09:46:11  Is there a sign with the name of the company on it?
09:47:01  not yet, no (but it's the same building as Credit Foncier)
09:47:19  OK.  On the ground floor?
09:48:22  no, top floor (3)
09:48:40  Thanks.  I'll look for it next time I go there.
09:49:07  we'll have coffee ready for you if you want :)
09:49:15  Excellent!
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12:33:35  hello lispers
12:34:27  hello kiuma
12:34:44  hi Xach :)
12:36:22  kiuma: are you excited about the thrilling prospects for the future of common lisp?
12:36:29  i am very excited in that way.
12:37:48  I'm so excited I can barely stand it.
12:37:52  wefuture of CL ?
12:37:59  kiuma: Are you going to ILC 2010?
12:38:00  link please
12:38:14  http://international-lisp-conference.org/
12:38:14  I'm in Italy
12:38:32  You may come anyway. That's why it's called "International".
12:38:37  There will also be a Canadian there.
12:38:39  I'd really like to go to one of those ILC one day :/
12:39:02  Let's eval it
12:39:27  kiuma: So I assume you went to ELS when it was in Milan?
12:39:34 kuwabara [~kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has joined #lisp
12:39:53  last year I was too dummy
12:40:07  now I think I'm a bit more mature :)
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12:40:40  October is a real good date
12:41:10  I'm really going to evaluate the possibility to be there
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12:42:15  what a coincidence, i'm also in Italy
12:42:19  Today something really interesting happened to me. I talked of CLAW and how I implemented my site explaining the benefits of CL adoption.
12:42:35  jdz , where ?
12:42:40  Trento
12:42:57  kiuma: Did you impress yourself?
12:43:14  For the first time I had not the usual feedback : "LIIISSPPPP??????????????"
12:43:19  LOL
12:43:44  i wonder how people pronounce all those question marks...
12:43:58  jdz, Monza here
12:44:07  jdz: in italy, with their hands waving frantically
12:44:45  traslting q. marks : pronounce "LISP?" but a little disgusted
12:45:30  oh, right, italians
12:46:09  why do you think italians wave hands frantically ?
12:46:14  we really don't
12:46:15  kiuma: was it "Lisp????" this time?
12:46:33  Xach: they might be Cyrillic letters truncated by stupid software. :)
12:46:39  stassats, no I generated interest even after the word lisp
12:46:59  ASau`, :D
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13:06:08  what's the advantage of using F# ?
13:06:31  Gavino?
13:07:04  those lags seem all the same soup
13:09:37  It's not a good idea to use abreviations.  When your abreviation is another word, you become unintelligible.
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13:18:45  ogamita, even because I put a couple of typos :) I meant "those languages seem all the same soup"
13:20:25 *rtoym* finally gets a fairly useful implementation of character name completion for slime and cmucl.
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13:26:05  rtoym: does it depends on something cmucl specific?
13:26:22 *nikodemus* wants to steal it
13:26:35  some time ago someone mentioned there's an 'older' version of parenscript available somewhere, that is still only more of a JS library then getting more and more CL-like
13:26:37  Yes, because it looks through the name database to do partial completions.
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13:27:34  i.e, before it was 'CLified'. does anyone know where?
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13:39:44  turbo24prg: parenscript-classic
13:39:50  google it
13:40:25  parenscript classic!
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13:52:11  When we use several REPL (to different inferior lisps) in slime, how can we associate a given source buffer to a specific REPL (inferior lisp)?
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13:54:00  Xach, p_l: thanks!
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13:56:05  kiuma: You should look into abbrev-mode for Emacs.  That way you could type `lags' if you prefer and have it show up as `languages'.
13:56:45  mvilleneuve: I found your building, but couldn't figure out what button to press.  It wasn't 6 as your sign indicates, nor was it 2 as the stacking order suggests.
13:56:47  exactly what I was loking for
13:57:07  beach, thanks but I'm currently using xchat.... don't ask me why :)
13:57:29  somthing is done by inertia
13:57:46  ogamita: Hmm, there is a "set default connection" mechanism, but I haven't heard of a per-buffer default connecton
13:57:57  kiuma: You mean like people who are unwilling to learn Lisp and stick with Java?
13:58:49  beach, well I'm not particularly performance oriented :) . Yust lazy :)
13:59:12  I've to bookmark that link
13:59:31  kiuma: I claim the opposite!  If you were *really* lazy, you would take this opportunity to work *a lot* less.
14:00:22  ogamita: you can C-c C-x n until you get the connection you want, then ESC ESC : (setq slime-buffer-connection slime-default-connection) in the buffer you want to "associate" with the respective REPL
14:00:47  ogamita: in fact, this does not associate with the REPL, but with the connection that happens to be the same
14:00:55  pmd: thanks
14:01:49  beach, you are right :)
14:01:53  Xach: np
14:02:19  beach: oh, so it was you! Someone from the company next to ours told me someone was coming to see us and that he opened the front door for that person
14:02:29  so let's try emacs/irc
14:02:51  brb
14:02:51  beach: I got downstairs but saw noone
14:02:51  mvilleneuve: no mysteriously ticking packages...?
14:02:51 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@151.11.222.67] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl]
14:02:59  splittist: heh :)
14:03:04  mvilleneuve: I noticed too late that I had to pull the door, and so I just left.
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14:04:25  mvilleneuve: So which button is it?
14:04:31  beach: that's too bad! Maybe next time we can plan that I wait for you outside (or you can call me on my cellphone)
14:04:52  mvilleneuve: Sure, no big deal.  I pass through quite often.
14:05:49  beach: I think it's 6, it actually rings in our neighbors' office but they know and open the door
14:05:58  I see.
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14:34:45  Greetings lispers.
14:34:51  hi
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14:37:19  I haven't been idling here in a long time and understand I missed some lisp-unit questions. So, here I am, free technical support.
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14:44:24 *Xach* wishes he had questions
14:45:29 tritchey [~tritchey@205.233.9.181] has joined #lisp
14:45:34 *splittist* wishes he had tests...
14:46:48  I moved lisp-unit over to github. I'm pretty happy with that repository. I've been transitioning the documentation over to the project wiki. Very handy.
14:47:29  URL?
14:47:43  Oh, I see.
14:48:12  http://github.com/OdonataResearchLLC/lisp-unit
14:48:57  Are you going to ILC in reno?
14:49:02 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp
14:49:30  Not planning on it.
14:50:33 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-127-39.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
14:51:21  wasn't there an ilc that threw the buzz-word cltl3? what's the state of that?
14:51:27  Oh, it's at the Nugget. Haven't been there in a long time.
14:51:56  tmh: Cheap registration is still on for a few days!
14:52:03  Cheaper, anyway.
14:52:53 kiuma [~user@151.11.222.67] has joined #lisp
14:53:07  Xach: Not going to happen this year. I have stuff I'd like to present at a lisp conference, but nothing that is ready.
14:53:43 tfb_ [~tfb@92.40.71.66.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp
14:53:45  So... If there is an F# presentation, why isn't it by the Frog?
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14:54:18 *tmh* looks for a place to hide.
14:55:01  I'd actually like to see that presentation.
14:56:35  Alright, I'll be on a telecon for the next hour or so, so the lisp-unit help desk is closed.
14:56:37  ... do you think a talk about interacting with C++ without C wrappers could warrant ELC paper?
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14:59:19  Is there a recommended way to install sbcl on a mac? macports? a .dmg?
14:59:40  cYmen: i usually use the binary from www.sbcl.org
14:59:56  cYmen: you can unpack it and run "sh install.sh"
15:00:38  OK, thanks!
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15:08:15  btw, who goes to Hamburg next year?
15:08:23 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp
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15:09:12  p_l: I'm very likely to be there
15:09:20  Am I an ALU member if I was at the last ILC?
15:09:46  what's in hamburg next year?
15:09:54 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp
15:09:57  Hamburgers.
15:10:03 aku_master [aku_master@109.237.64.10] has joined #lisp
15:10:14  oh, that might be a bit too many for me at once
15:10:18  ELC
15:10:31  iirc
15:10:32  let me check my mail
15:10:35  ELS?
15:10:46  ah, right
15:11:08  funny how english pronunciation can make my memory fuzzy :/
15:11:37  (#\C is spelled very differently in polish and english)
15:11:55  pmd, Xach: thanks.
15:12:34  anyway, I was thinking of getting my C++ interop project into somewhat usable shape for ELS
15:12:36 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp
15:12:38  ogamita: np
15:14:34  beach: I'm using ERC, nice :)
15:15:01  I've only to discover where is the user list
15:15:11 -!- aku_master [aku_master@109.237.64.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
15:16:00  kiuma: i don't miss it, especially on populated channels, but i think there's something in erc for the speedbar
15:18:07 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-87-192-78.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
15:18:20  pmd: thx, I see
15:20:54  kiuma: np. now that i see it, it shows departed users, right?
15:21:33  p_l: i'm planning to go to Hamburg also
15:22:51  pmd: I can't recognise online from offline ones
15:23:03 milanj [~milanj_@93-87-152-99.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp
15:24:07  attila_lendvai: are you going to present something or just as a guest?
15:24:09 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp
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15:24:48  kiuma: nevermind, i don't fancy or understand speedbar much...
15:25:14  agree
15:25:22  p_l: well, we always try to present something interesting in the form of lightning talks with questionable success... :) but we'll be mostly guests (http://dwim.hu guys)
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15:27:06  attila_lendvai: yeah, I know :)
15:27:30 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.9.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:27:41  btw, dunno If I ever told you, but dwim.hu site is one of the most buggy I had chance to use ;-)
15:27:44 xinming [~hyy@115.221.9.252] has joined #lisp
15:27:58  p_l: you think i don't know it? :)
15:28:03  hahaha
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15:28:34 *p_l* is kinda scared of what kind of bugs he will see playing with C++... stack smashing still makes me shiver
15:29:19  we simply have no resources to fix it... although in the next few weeks i was planning to fix stuff, but... i'm taking a bit of time off hacking, it was too much in the last few years
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15:37:04  beach: could you please repost the link about perfection and performance oriented people ?
15:37:25  I liked it very much, but I forgot to save it :/
15:38:57  kiuma: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html
15:41:26 *splittist* finds his bug -- too many layers of indirection...
15:41:39  thanks vng
15:41:56  kiuma: np
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15:44:59  cpu is 74° celsius. It's time to buy another PC
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15:47:29  hi, i'm getting a "too many files open" from my lisp, is there a way to see which handles are open? i'm a bit at a loss due to using only WITH-OPEN-FILE which should be safe?
15:49:47  manuel___: no recursion inside with-open-file ?
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15:52:06  actually they do come from an open, but inside an UNWIND-PROTECT that closes them. this is CCL64 on macosx
15:52:16  let me paste that
15:53:13  http://paste.lisp.org/display/114592
15:53:26  lsof -p $(pidof lx86cl)
15:53:31  kiuma: Congratulations!
15:53:42  beach: ?
15:53:51  for erc ?
15:54:13  lichtblau: yah, got to pinpoint it
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15:55:55  manuel___: (dolist (open-file (nreverse open-files)) (copy-stream open-file out))
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15:56:17  you never close files :)
15:56:31  UNWIND-PROTECT?
15:56:52 -!- vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: have to go now. Bye all!]
15:56:56  they should be closed on exit
15:56:58  he does (try to) close all files after opening them all
15:57:22  meanwhile you open all of the list :P
15:57:33  manuel___: remove the unwind-protect and insert a with-open-file inside `(dolist ... (copy-stream ...))
15:57:44  yeah, probably a good bet
15:57:57  kiuma: well that's pretty much the plan
15:58:01  otherwise all files are kept open until the clean-up forms of unwind-protect run
15:58:04  pmd: but it doesn't explain why there would be any open files?
15:58:12  left hanging around
15:58:13  unwind-protect can work, but for your code why not simple with-open-file ?
15:58:41  manuel___: you're get that error outside the unwind-protect?
15:58:45  i need to open all files to have their length
15:58:48  pmd resumed better then me :)
15:58:51  pmd: no but there are dangling open files
15:59:32  manuel___: no you don't
15:59:39  manuel___: so you're getting that error inside unwind-protect, and that error shows you a debugger/listener prompt?
16:00:20 urandom__ [~user@p548A35B1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
16:00:21  fwiw, (reduce #'+ (mapcar #'file-length open-files)) => (reduce #'+ open-files :key #'file-length)
16:01:18  gotta go. bye
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16:01:57  manuel___: ok, i get what you say, but to calculate the file-length of all files, try to use `probe-file' or `open' with :direction :probe and see if file-length still works
16:03:02 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:03:27  what i mean is that you probably don't have to have all files open to calculate the total length, and surely you don't have to open them all to read their contents to another stream
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16:03:31 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:03:55  yep
16:03:59 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp
16:04:01  but still doesn't explain the bug though :)
16:04:10  (sb-posix:stat-size (sb-posix:stat path))
16:04:47  it's the fact that the dangling open files happen at all that annoys me
16:05:01  manuel___: if that error causes your lisp to break (ie. show a prompt), it won't have run the unwind-protect clean-up forms yet, so you can debug it, so the files are still open
16:05:35  but it should close them once i jump out of the debugger right? maybe it's a convoluted issue with SLIME + debugging and all that
16:05:38  i'll keep an eye on it
16:07:09 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp
16:07:16  yeah, that might be a bug, which implementation are you using?
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16:09:22 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@121.243.225.226] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
16:09:52  CCL64 on MacOSX
16:11:26 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:12:50  (oh right, silly me...) well, i think there's a bug-tracker at ccl.clozure.com
16:13:20  but you have to make sure it's a bug first
16:13:41 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-31-251.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp
16:14:39  right. try to make it into a replicable code snippet
16:14:57  how many files were there?
16:15:38  i dunno, something like 200. i closed it cause i have to focus on something else, but will keep an eye on it
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16:18:29  i was just curious so i might test on win32
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16:31:52  it's deep inside the web server, and it's leaking without the console doing funny stuff
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17:09:25  ,quit
17:09:28  doh!
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17:27:00  Hi. Noob question. I have a data structure that looks like (("aa" 11) ("bb" 22) ("cc" 33) ...). I'd like to pass the entire structure to a (format t ..) expression and print the first atoms of each sublist only (aka "aa bb cc ..."). Could someone show me the control-string that achieves this? I know that I could extract the data I want to display before passing it to the format string, but I am interested in doing it in the format control-string if possible
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17:28:14  pp206: I don't see the point of trying to do it all in format.
17:28:14  pp206: nothing built-in does that.
17:28:33  you could just do it with the "loop" facility of format
17:28:54  although nvm
17:29:18  ~// is cheating.
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17:30:20  I am learning and obviously I am trying to do things that don't make much sense just to get a feel for it
17:30:35  but good to know that there is no good way to do that
17:30:43  thank all
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17:31:44  does "~{~~}" do basically that?
17:31:51 younder [~jthing@231.203.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp
17:32:00  add ~* as needed to skip uninteresting stuff
17:32:41  lichtblau: oh, that seems like it would do it
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17:32:47  i'll try
17:32:49  thank you.
17:33:37 *Xach* fails at format
17:34:01  still, I dont like to read complicated formatstrings
17:34:14  (mapcar #'cadr ) reads a lot easier
17:34:15  :<
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17:35:04 <_3b> "~{~:@{~a ~}~}" ?
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17:35:38 <_3b> or i guess just "~:{~a ~}"
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17:36:33 *_3b* always ends up overcomplicating ~:{ and ~:@{ 
17:37:32  whats the diff between ~{ and ~:{
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17:37:38  I know ~{ loops over
17:37:43  so what does ~:{ do?
17:37:53 <_3b> clhs ~{
17:37:53  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgd.htm
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17:38:59 <_3b> treats the contents of each sublist as a set of arguments for the body of the ~:{ ~} instead of passing it as a single argument
17:39:15  yeah I see, I was confused and thought he needed the 2nd argument
17:39:20  just reread his question
17:39:27  ty
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18:10:03  It seems i often see programmers with the equivalent of 10ft diameter granite circles on their $5000 lightweight road bicycle. "I don't want to re-invent the wheel" seem to be their excuse.... i think they may be missing the point.
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18:12:01  maybe the don't have money for a lightweight wheelset?
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18:29:35  or the time to make one and/or fit it/another in the current bicycle
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18:31:17  drewc: with what being the granite circles?
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18:33:51  oh, it's an analogy
18:34:57  one thing I'm missing from FORMAT... the possibility of adding my own format st
18:35:01  *sequences
18:35:10  p_l: ~/!
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18:36:35  Xach: I'd like to avoid having to explicitly specify functions :)
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18:36:50  though I'll have to see how readable it is with it
18:38:05  True, words can be way less readable than single-character mnemonics that aren't always alphabetic.
18:38:28  I guess ~black/color/ might work...
18:38:51  it was an analogy, and a poor one at that.. reading bike and programmer forums at the same time before coffee :|
18:39:01  I seem to have remembered the function call syntax incorrectly and assumed it to be much uglier
18:39:31 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.168.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
18:39:43  Xach: also, words can be less readable when you have many similar ones packed closely around other stuff :)
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18:42:01  also, it seems to always consume a format argument, so I'd have to make it ~fg-color,bg-color/color/~:*
18:42:34  make it ~/color/ and it takes a cons
18:43:09  tcr: I don't want to use format argument, I want colour argument to be inlined
18:43:21  that's not possible
18:43:46  ~/color:black/
18:43:51  I'd like that, too, for instance for ~/FMT:TIME/ and ~/FMT:DATE/
18:43:54 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki
18:44:05  but ~/ always consumes an argument
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18:45:50  (format nil "~fg-color/color/" arg) results in a call to COLOR with arguments STREAM, FORMAT-ARG, semicolon?, atsign?, fg-color
18:45:55  hm..emacs from emacsformacosx.com, slime from cvs and sbcl from the darwin binary... this was easier to set up than I expected
18:46:17  p_l: there's not necessarily another argument to steal from
18:46:23  cYmen: quicklisp-slime-helper needs testers
18:46:33  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7708405/preventdogs.png
18:46:35  also ~* might get funky inside ~{ or ~<
18:46:35  that is, all arguments specified with directive are passed as &rest after first four
18:46:41  oops, wrong channel
18:46:54  OliverUv: still, saved :>
18:47:14  hhe
18:47:28  tcr: yeah
18:47:47  that's why I'd prefer a generalized way to create my own format directives
18:48:31  though ~/fun/ is still better than what some other languages need to use :D
18:50:34 *p_l* would go mad trying to use Java, cause there would be looong names
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19:41:02  Fare: therep?
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19:42:34  t
19:43:09  you and your "modern" symbol writers
19:43:49  :)
19:44:29  no, I just bound *print-case* to :downcase
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20:09:52  what is the advantage of learning Lisp as a second language?
20:10:00 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-236-227.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp
20:10:05  i only know C
20:10:13  try it and find out :D
20:10:40  but i dont know if it is the right choise
20:10:51  i dont want to waiste time
20:10:59  it won't be a waste of time
20:11:09  Learning something new is rarely a waste of time.
20:11:22 HarryS [H@2001:470:892c:3432::1] has joined #lisp
20:11:30  even learning PHP wasn't a waste of time, despite it being a wretched excuse for a language
20:11:39 *stassats* goes to learn young earth creationism
20:11:44  i am confused between Perl and a Functional Language(such as Lisp)
20:11:50  dlowe: as an exercise in what not to do?
20:12:07  stassats: very handy for recognising their more insidious arguments disguised as real stuff
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20:12:28  rsynnott: somewhat. It did get a lot of things right, which contributed to its wild success
20:13:03  mostly, I would have thought, to do with its nature (mod_php, etc) rather than the language per se
20:13:21  they can't be separated when all you have is a reference implementation
20:14:20  Lisp is used for what?
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20:14:30  for anything
20:14:38  robertosucks: For whatever you are doing.
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20:14:48  well, what I mean is that I suspect that its big virtue was that it was an interpreter living in the web server, designed to run scripts fairly fast with no state
20:15:06  (as opposed to, say, mod_python, which is an embedded interpreter with long-living state)
20:15:48  but i can do a web browser in c , but C++ is more qualified, so lisp is more qualified for do what?
20:16:10 *tmh* is listening to Getz play The Girl From Ipanema. Wishes there were vocals.
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20:16:47  robertosucks: I disagree. I would rather write something in C than C++
20:16:48  robertosucks: you should read some of the c++ rants in gigamonkey's coders at work from netscap folks
20:17:07  no it is a example
20:17:25  robertosucks: Lisp is a language for writing programs, and writing languages to write programs with. It's a _general-purpose_ programming language.
20:17:49  it's not designed with any particular task in mind, except the task of getting tasks done in better ways.
20:18:15  so why isnt a lot used ?
20:18:32  i use it a lot
20:18:39  I'm using it right now.
20:18:42  I write just about all my code in Lisp.
20:19:19  robertosucks: You're asking the wrong questions.
20:19:19  same here
20:19:21  are there some OpenSource in Lisp?
20:19:25  sheesh, smug lisp weenies!
20:19:39  robertosucks: I still think it would be a lot easier if you'd just try it
20:19:42  (mapcar #'char-code "I'm using it _right now_") => Error: (error Synchronous Lisp Evaluation aborted)
20:19:47  (map nil #'char-code "I'm using it _right now_") => NIL
20:19:52  fortune favors the bold
20:19:52  haha oops
20:20:07  can you recommend some book?
20:20:15  minion: please tell robertosucks about PCL
20:20:15  robertosucks: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
20:20:16  minion: tell robertosucks about pcl
20:20:19  hah
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20:21:17  robertosucks: What is(are) your goal(s)?
20:21:36  get better
20:21:40  in programming
20:22:04  goals: finding a hot chick, marrying her. Oops, Lisp won't help much with that.
20:22:24  worked for me
20:22:30  Fare: You skipped a few steps in the middle.
20:23:13  tmh: do you think it's a good idea to change assert-numerical-equal http://paste.lisp.org/display/114573 ?
20:23:40  LiamH: Just a second, I had a click fail and will have to type it.
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20:24:36  tmh: the form would have a double-quoted numerical-equal, (expand-assert :equal form form expected extras :test ''numerical-equal)
20:24:43 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.241.155.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:24:53  tmh: (the '#'numerical-equal isn't necessary)
20:25:10  LiamH: Nikodemus sent me an email on that. It affects ever assertion definition.
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20:25:44  LiamH: I have added a branch to the github repository, literal-function-bug
20:26:07  It hasn't shown up on the repo.or.cz mirror, yet.
20:26:10  tmh: for a brief period, it seemed that the GSLL tests wanted to do that, but it's not used now.  However, all the same tests still passed after that change.
20:26:20 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20:26:42  LiamH: The real fix is more fundamental, quoting the test argument is only an interim fix.
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20:26:56  tmh: I had a feeling that would be the case.
20:27:02  quote it inside expand-assert?
20:27:22  stassats: two single quotes
20:27:27  Fare: Lisp can help with that just fine!
20:27:32  I heading in the direction of changing expand-assert and friends to macros
20:27:46  Chicks dig the ()
20:27:48  They are functions at the moment. I just haven't had a chance to test it.
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20:27:52  tmh: Ah
20:28:24  LiamH: May get that out tonight.
20:28:44  tmh: OK, just wanted to bring it to your attention.  Thanks.
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20:29:26  LiamH: No problem. Got an email from Nikodemus about it and he doesn't even use lisp-unit. Mentioned that someone on #lisp was having an issue, so here I am, idling for lisp-unit questions. ;-)
20:29:43 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20:30:19  tmh: Right, it was Sikander yesterday.  I said I'd ask you.
20:31:20  LiamH: I switched the repository to github, there is now an official issue tracker. http://github.com/OdonataResearchLLC/lisp-unit/issues
20:31:48  The cliki page is updated to point to the github repository and it is mirroed on repo, still.
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20:32:05  sykopomp, (require :hot-chick) ?
20:32:15  tmh: I see "Nothing found." for issues
20:32:27  or do you just (require :chick) and then do a hot upgrade?
20:33:01  LiamH: Well, I'm not going to enter these. :-) I guess I could, I was hoping the issues would just spontaneously be found by others and entered.
20:33:28 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:33:38  tmh: I guess I submit issues the old fashioned way, on #lisp.
20:33:52  Fare: (asdf:oos 'asdf:marry-op 'hot-chick)
20:34:35  LiamH: Hah. I guess it wouldn't hurt for me to just translate issues raised on #lisp to the tracker so they don't fall through the cracks.
20:35:12 -!- manuel____ [~manuel_@p54B8C03D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: manuel____]
20:35:20  sykopomp, you obviously have a more recent version of asdf than I do. Where is the repo?
20:35:26 manuel___ [~manuel_@p54B8C03D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
20:36:14  LiamH: I'm looking at the original problem and it was generated in LOOP. That is what I'm trying to make sure doesn't happen with the fix. I want the assert macros to properly expand in other macros.
20:36:14  tmh: my experience/opinion is that for small projects, or small user-base projects, issue trackers don't adequately show the "state of thinking" on issues; basically they're more of a pain to use and keep up to date than other methods.
20:36:17  Fare: There's a repo? She just wrote that on a napkin for me. :(
20:36:39  tmh: OK, sounds good.
20:36:55  I've been had.
20:37:43  LiamH: I'm not super proficient with macros, though, so it's going to take a little trial and error. I really need some sort of testing for the code defining the unit testing code.
20:38:04  tmh: lisp-unit-unit ?
20:38:20 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp
20:38:20  LiamH: Exactly. :-)
20:38:39  tmh: of course, you know what the next step is ...
20:38:55  A meta-unit-tester?
20:39:12  tmh: no, too ambitious; lisp-unit-unit-unit
20:39:19 *tmh* chuckles
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20:41:15  tmh: you need to have a generic, extensible protocol for developing variations of unit test frameworks. The Meta Unit Protocol.
20:41:22  can i somehow disable glibc from printing memory map when crashing? it's all over *inferior-lisp* and i can't find the error message
20:41:39 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-57-82-249-33-112.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp
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20:44:33  sykopomp: That automagically tests itself?
20:44:40  tmh: indeed.
20:44:59  as well as any derivatives!
20:48:38 -!- gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:49:37  any sbcl committer around? Can you update asdf to 2.008 ?
20:49:53  same goes for ecl, ccl, cmucl, clisp, scl, etc.
20:50:15  but sbcl especially could use the update.
20:50:33  Fare: I thought CCL updated to 2.008 already.
20:50:49  oh, nice.
20:50:57  rme is on top of the game
20:51:33  indeed it did
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21:17:41 *rtoym* finally gets a slime char completion that actually works for the corner cases.  But more work needs to be done.
21:17:48 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:18:22  Do you mean like #\Ne ->| #\Newline ?
21:18:39 *tmh* is confused.
21:18:42  that should be already working
21:19:20  this is like #\Cyrillic_letter_a
21:20:08 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
21:20:09  Ah. Covering multi-byte characters. I never mess with that.
21:20:25  no, any characters
21:21:23 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
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21:25:32  What stassats said.
21:25:58  sorry for hijacking your question!
21:26:57  Except that my version does #\ne -> #\ne #\new_sheqel_sign #\new_tai_lue_.  So that's yet another bug.
21:27:04 -!- lavoiecs [~lavoiecs@modemcable236.51-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp
21:27:05  No problem.  I was afk for a bit.
21:27:25  (No character named #\ne.)
21:27:45  This is turning out to be really, really hard given how names are stored in cmucl.
21:29:13  These are extensions, right?
21:29:42  Yes, for unicode characters.
21:30:31  Ok, not something I've had to worry about. I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.
21:31:06  Well, my stuff only works with cmucl, so unless you're going to use cmucl, there are no bridges to burn.
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21:39:18 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:39:45  C-c C-d is bound to `lisp-describe-sym' in my slime-repl
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21:40:10 -!- tfb [~tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Quit: sleeping]
21:40:11  is it my slime-repl being screwed up?
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21:42:43  looks like something from inferior lisp
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21:52:46  Fare: you still ther?
21:52:52  s/ther/there/
21:53:38 ephcon [~ephcon@64.254.165.130] has joined #lisp
21:54:57  kind of
21:55:00  going soon
21:57:25  I ran into an upgrade issue with ASDF2.  I loaded it into a vintage SBCL, and got a crash because the old ASDF::AROUND method stayed after the ASDF2 was installed.
21:57:45  it did? Am I not uninterning it?
21:57:48  Changing the method-combination discipline seemed to leave orphaned methods.
21:57:55  and/or uninterning all the methods that use it?
21:58:08 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-211-243.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
21:58:08  Fare: How can one unintern it?  Don't you have to use REMOVE-METHOD (that's what I ended up doing)?
21:58:25  Maybe we need to remove-method indeed. Painful.
21:58:37  I don't have any vintage sbcl.
21:58:40  Can you do that?
21:58:50 -!- tmh [~user@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp
21:59:00  problem is, if anyone uses this mechanism in their gf's
21:59:20  shouldn't uninterning all gf's using asdf:around be enough?
21:59:30  This is 1.0.38, which I didn't think was /that/ vintage...
22:00:14 s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-219-251.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp
22:00:21  Error I got after installing ASDF2 was a crash in loading some SBCL built-in library....
22:00:22  get with the late 2010s, man.
22:00:40  Xach: Isn't that just four monthly's ago?
22:01:00  Your typical linux distro could lag /way/ more than that....
22:01:18  (indeed, we've had issues with clisp in linux distros, but that's another story...)
22:02:20 weirdo [sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp
22:02:38 *rpg* thought SBCL was just at 1.0.42...
22:02:45 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.171.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
22:02:48  rpg: oops
22:03:12  rpg: can you lisp paste the error?
22:03:29 *Xach* is going to punt on update-in-place for now
22:03:49 *Fare* feels too lazy to compile an old sbcl tonight. Is there a binary package for it?
22:03:55  Fare: sadly, no --- it was in the middle of an epic attempt (failed) to port some code from ACL to SBCL.
22:03:59 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
22:04:05  Fare: got x86-64? the latest on sbcl.org is .37
22:04:08  I will recover the situation as soon as I can.
22:04:12  Xach: updating asdf in place isn't working for you?
22:04:22  am I the only one for which it seems to work?
22:04:25  Fare: No, I'm not going to bother with that for quicklisp for now. Seems like more trouble than it's worth.
22:04:43  ASDF yes, quicklisp no.
22:05:00  usually, updating it in place works if you also update or reload all asdf-modifying libraries.
22:05:35  oh - updating quicklisp in place should be quite hard.
22:05:47  Fare:  It didn't fail off the bat.  I think something caused me to pull in socket libraries or something, and then it blew up.  I will try to replicate.
22:05:50  if it's half as hard as updating asdf, you don't want to go there
22:06:02  If I can replicate, I'll post a launchpad ticket; ideally with a patch.
22:06:02  rpg: oh.
22:06:36  oh: if you had sb-grovel loaded *before* you updated asdf, you need to forget it and reload it so it may work.
22:07:01  Heh. I thought Lisp systems were supposed to be able to stay up forever because they were so easy to hot patch.
22:07:10  Fare: Not sure what might have triggered that.  I will replicate.
22:07:11  you're a committer - you can commit your patch if it passes the test suite.
22:07:37  Ideally the test suite would be extended to repeat tests from various legacy versions of asdf.
22:08:11  I'm not sure what's the right way to get rid of a mess of old methods....  Are they guaranteed to be smashed when the corresponding GF goes away?
22:08:22  say, the last danb version, the last gwking version, the last pre-2.0 version bundled with each of sbcl, etc.
22:08:48 *Xach* remembers fondly the 3 or 4 days he spent as GIMP release manager
22:08:52  rpg: if you unintern things, they are guaranteed to stay but remain inaccessible and hopefully unaccessed
22:09:18  Xach: don't you want to be a Slime release manager?
22:09:29 jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-25-94.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp
22:09:41  testing update is very tricky, since it's hard to know what are the points against which you must test....
22:09:53 *Fare* restarts work on xcvb, and finds a bug that prevents it from recompiling itself.
22:09:56  gigamonkey: and easy to break
22:10:16  stassats: i want to, sure, but there are also many other things i want to do and that is unfortunately not close to the top of the list
22:10:16  giga easy to monkey patch
22:10:50  you patch it billion times in hope that at least one succeeds?
22:10:58  That's what I do!
22:11:10  stassats... in parallel!
22:11:24 HarryS [H@2001:470:892c:3432::1] has joined #lisp
22:11:31  xcvb is such a mess. A clever mess, but a mess.
22:12:06 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@64.254.165.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
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22:16:10 *Fare* asks wc and finds that xcvb (minus libraries) is only 2.17 times bigger than asdf.
22:16:25  considering how much more it does, that's not too bad.
22:16:35  still a mess.
22:16:46  that will increase the clisp size by 21.7%!
22:16:57  How would I proceed to convert a string to hex?
22:17:08  to convert a /string/ to hex?
22:17:14  francogrex: that doesn't make a lot of sense.
22:17:19  to hex of what?
22:17:23  Xach: the whole point of xcvb is that it is NOT included in your standard image - only xcvb-master needs be, and it's 10 times smaller than asdf
22:17:33  perhaps he means take each character and convert it to its code.
22:17:47  and then represent the codes as hexadecimal numbers?
22:17:56 tcleval [~funnyguy@187.114.114.10] has joined #lisp
22:18:03  hey
22:18:49  something like here: http://www.string-functions.com/string-hex.aspx
22:18:59  francogrex: assuming sykopomp is about right, try this: (format nil "~{~2,'02x~}" (map 'list #'char-code your-string-here))
22:19:42 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:20:04  as in (loop :for x :across (sb-impl:string->utf8 s) :do (format t "~2,'0X" x))
22:20:30 mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has joined #lisp
22:20:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@chello089076137084.chello.pl] has quit [Changing host]
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22:20:53  gigamonkey, your code assumes latin1
22:21:01 vng [~user@LCaen-151-93-21-119.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp
22:21:22  Fare: or UCS-2
22:21:23  gigamonkey: sykopomp : yes exactly thanks
22:21:39 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
22:21:57  ~2,'0x --  that's latin. For ucs-2, try ~4,'0x
22:22:12  Er, whoops, right.
22:22:57  Though it'll ~2,'0x will expand beyond 2 chars if necessary, at least in SBCL.
22:23:06 *gigamonkey* is too lazy to look up if that's reliable behavior.
22:23:25  it's totally inappropriate.
22:23:28 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
22:23:29  gotta go
22:23:30  gigamonkey: yes your code is ok but only in sbcl
22:23:38  francogrex: eh?
22:23:50  francogrex, using babel is left as an exercise to the reader
22:24:01  I mean, the programmer.
22:24:14 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:24:40  So any impl should expand beyond the specified mincol columns.
22:24:42  I mean: ~{~2,'02x~} I get: Error in format: Unknown format directive (ECL)
22:24:55  remove 2
22:24:56  aha! the ASDF crash comes from Krystof's clx.asd....
22:24:57  WTF? That's completely standard.
22:25:00  err, the second 2
22:25:10  Er, except that you added that 2
22:25:29  stassats: yes that's fine now
22:25:40  gigamonkey: no, you did
22:26:12  stassats: whoops. You're right. Man I suck today.
22:26:32  francogrex: anyway, Fare is right that you shoud decide whether you care about Unicode and if you do, what you're going to do about it.
22:26:52  ok
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22:28:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp
22:30:32  I'm interviewing Hal Abelson again this weekend. Anything I should ask him?
22:32:24  does he like Common Lisp?
22:32:55  what his means in sbcl
22:33:00  "WARNING: Starting a select without a timeout while interrupts are disabled"
22:33:18  something gone wrong
22:33:40  yes, does not look good
22:35:19  How does he see the future of computer programming in 20 yrs from now
22:35:44 poincare101 [~root@rrcs-98-100-238-218.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp
22:36:03  moribund
22:36:08  is there any dialect of lisp that's comparable in speed to haskell/ocaml? I need my neural network to run like a stabbed rat!
22:36:41 timack [~tim@hlfx59-1-161.ns.sympatico.ca] has joined #lisp
22:36:46  when I think about fast code, i'm usually not thinking about haskell.
22:36:53  heh
22:37:01  Well, its fast if you write it properly (sort of)
22:37:04  Fade: it's stabbed, after all
22:37:08  poincare101: arguably Common Lisp in an appropriate implementation and with appropriate declarations.
22:37:13 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
22:37:26  and with appropriate code
22:37:33  Yeah, that.
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22:39:25  Random kvetch:  What does it mean for the EVAL-WHEN oldstyle names to be deprecated?  ANSI is dead, they will never be removed, so is there any reason to worry about the oldstyle names?
22:40:31  they're not confusing enough
22:40:50  poincare101: well, SBCL is quite fast
22:41:05 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-96-250-33-35.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
22:42:39  rpg: I could imagine a world in which someone decides to created an updated Common Lisp dialect and they might axe things that are depreceated in the ANSI standard.
22:42:47  s/created/create/
22:43:14  s/many other typos/the right thing/
22:43:21  rpg: There's still code in ccl that uses the deprecated eval-when names.  Seems harmless to me.
22:43:30  gigamonkey: or un-deprecate!
22:43:40  (*-if-not i'm looking at you)
22:43:45 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
22:43:48  ok again: (format nil "~{~2,'2d~}" (map 'list #'char-code "test")) >>> "116101115116" how would I do the reverse if at all possible from "116101115116" to "test"
22:43:59  gigamonkey: I suppose.  Running people's old code, I'm inclined to simply quash complaints about obsolete eval-when keywords....  I'd rather have those warnings not hide the incredibly useful warnings SBCL gives...
22:44:13 antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-97-226.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp
22:44:29  francogrex: sounds like an exercise for the reader.
22:44:46 ephcon [~ephcon@64.254.165.130] has joined #lisp
22:44:58  sykopomp: what reader? you me?
22:45:08  If sbcl warns about deprecated eval-when names, that's just gratuitous pedantry, in my opinion (although nobody asked for my opinion).
22:46:04  no really, I'm tring to fix a problem in some software that is deficient in handling strings
22:46:46  francogrex: now you really need to define better how you're dealing with Unicode.
22:46:53  I mean passing strings back and forth: so I thought I would convert to hex or decimal and then convert back
22:47:11 -!- jleija [~jleija@adsl-91-25-94.chs.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:47:16  ugh
22:47:22  back and forth between what?...
22:47:55  dare I mention it's name: it's SAS to Common lisp
22:48:03  so, why are you storing your decimal representation inside a string then?
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22:51:06  stassats: I'm starting with strings -> hex/or/decimal -> strings
22:51:22  I suppose one man's pointless pedantry is another's standards compliance.  I'm conflicted.  Sometimes I'm very grateful to SBCL for its pedantry.  Other times, not so much.  I should probably learn to filter it better, then I will just be left with the gratitude.
22:51:27  back later...
22:51:38  I've not yet figured out how to deal with unicode
22:52:14  francogrex: do you mean strings -> strings -> strings?
22:52:29  because what you showed, "116101115116", is a string
22:52:46  ok it's 116101115116
22:52:56  so, it's an integer now?
22:53:15  how well does your other side deal with arbitrary-length integers?
22:54:26  other side meaning SAS: I expect only problem with strings not with integer there
22:55:20  of arbitrary size?
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22:55:44  francogrex: what is the problem you're actually trying to solve?
22:55:49  stassats: I'm actually not sure about the aribtrary size
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22:57:08  gigamonkey: passing string from one software to C or CL is problematic, so i thought of converting the string to another 'numerical' reprsentation and passing that
22:57:46  bytes would do the trick as well i suppose
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22:58:26  Xach: I will test if you give me a hint what I have to do. ;)
22:59:07 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:59:18  but before anything i'm trying to evaluate if it makes sense to do such conversions
23:00:04  strings are sequences of bytes
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23:03:30  francogrex: and are you "passing" in memory (i.e. via an FFI call or something) or as text (e.g. via a pipe or web service or something)
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23:10:23  cYmen: instead of using slime from cvs, try (ql:quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper")
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23:16:08  Xach: Will try.
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23:19:37  gigamonkey: in memory, for example in SAS if let's imagine pass-SASToC/CL('test') << SAS doesn't pass this. But i though if I do pass-SASToC/CL(some-numeric-representation-of-the-string)  it will ok it to go to C/Cl and then I do the "reconversion" to string back there
23:20:01  sorry if i sound like a retard because it's not yet clear to me what i'd do
23:20:23  I'll need to re-read the log here again tomorrow when my mind is clear(er)
23:20:26  I've never really used FFIs, but don't they define protocols for passing strings?
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23:21:14  If not, you need to pick some data type that can be grokked on both sides and convert to/from that on both sides.
23:21:36  An array of octects seems like a more likely candidate than an integer potentially larger than 32 or 64 bits.
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23:22:24  gigamonkey: yes it's a possibility. Though I thought i'd make it simple what if I have an array of strings to pass
23:23:04  seemed logical that I 'condense' each string to one 'integer' rather than an array of bytes
23:23:26  but i'll think about it
23:26:10  btw, is it possible to make CL reader into non-interning one by swapping the whole readtable with a custom one?
23:26:37  later guys. Take care
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23:28:33  I was considering replacing all reader macros to "hijack" reader algorithm so it won't intern symbols
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23:36:19  p_l: I'm not sure you can--I seem to recall that you can't completely obliterate the specialness of #\:.
23:36:23 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
23:36:39  But anyway, at that point, why not just write your own PL:READ that does what you want?
23:37:16  how would you deal with the absence of reader macros?
23:37:35  you asking me?
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23:38:45  gigamonkey: I did consider that (and I might ultimately write one, compatible with standard readtables even) but I was thinking of a quick'n'dirty solution
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23:40:16  You should ask beach; he's been deep in that stuff lately presumably.
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23:44:08  gigamonkey: somehow my first thought on his possible response was "adapt SICL" or "I just implemented the algorithm, but I left more wiggle space" :P
23:44:34  Those seem like good answers
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