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[Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:31 c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:29:37 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:e588:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 00:29:48 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:30:00 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:e588:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:30:09 -!- hugod [~hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 00:30:30 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:30:47 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:e588:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 00:30:48 apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has joined #lisp 00:31:14 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:e588:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:31:58 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:e588:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 00:32:22 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:e588:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:07 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:e588:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 00:33:33 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:e588:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:35:32 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:e588:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 00:35:55 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:e588:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:40 powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:e588:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has joined #lisp 00:36:44 powerje: good job 00:37:05 -!- powerje [~powerje@2002:4b3c:e588:0:5ab0:35ff:fe80:7cd2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:37:47 Damn it. 00:39:09 Hakcs and glory await. 00:41:59 -!- kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: kjbrock] 00:42:23 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.144.87.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:42:36 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:04 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@188.147.5.47.nat.umts.dynamic.eranet.pl] has quit [Quit: zZz] 00:43:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:45:27 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:58 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:48:15 ljosa [~ljosa@pool-173-48-201-170.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:19 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-254-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:52:21 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-254-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:53:56 wtf 00:54:08 my paypal account is not nown ? 00:54:27 i even got small amounts of payment from ? 00:54:58 when i try to re register with the same e-mail address i get this account is already registered 00:55:11 so one time it is known to exist the other time not ? 00:55:15 wtf... 00:55:37 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-140-140.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 00:55:43 *_3b* wonders why #lisp would be expected to know about paypal 00:56:07 eh sorry 00:56:18 *Xach* accepts paypal payments with lisp 00:56:19 right, i will just call tomorrow... 00:56:23 lol 00:56:42 shit i got another account with another e-mail now 00:57:12 but i did not register with that e-mail address recently, i registered with it err now 2-4 years ago i think.... 00:57:27 homie: This is not really a great place to talk about it. 00:57:38 jep, ok forget it... 00:59:50 -!- davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:01:08 -!- apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has left #lisp 01:01:17 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:02:17 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:58 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:19 loomer 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[~nyef@pool-70-109-134-127.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:59:50 Agent001 [~Agent001@adsl-70-132-7-242.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:58 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:03:58 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:08 -!- turbo24p1g [~turbo24pr@turbolent.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:06:35 turbo24prg [~turbo24pr@turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 02:09:07 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:09:39 G0SUB [~ghoseb@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 02:12:44 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:15:12 -!- jyper_noscreen [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 02:15:34 5EXABGHVU [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:53 -!- ljosa [~ljosa@pool-173-48-201-170.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ljosa] 02:31:33 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.177.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:33:13 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.53.247] has joined #lisp 02:36:13 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@c-98-216-106-0.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: *poof*] 02:40:05 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:43:28 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zkeffbygiqokyrzq] has joined #lisp 02:45:01 -!- loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:47:01 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:48 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:48:16 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:48:17 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:29 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:49:41 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:31 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:50:35 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 02:52:50 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:53:08 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:54:42 Is there some popular web comment system that allows "[url=http://www.example.com] foo [/url]" as a syntax for links? 02:54:42 gigamonkey, memo from froydnj: you need to kick your blog server again; fetching your feed is timing out. 02:55:33 minon: memo for froydnj: It's moved to http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/ (yeah, yeah, I should set up redirects.) 02:55:43 minion: memo for froydnj: It's moved to http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/ (yeah, yeah, I should set up redirects.) 02:55:43 Remembered. I'll tell froydnj when he/she/it next speaks. 02:56:34 gigamonkey: phpbb? 02:59:11 Ah, that lead me down the right path. It's BBCode. 02:59:53 I am highly unimpressed with/mystified by today's spammers. 02:59:53 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:01:30 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:41 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:11:29 gigamonkey: tell me about it... we finally kicked our forum out completely instead of fighting with spammers for few months in every year. 03:13:03 cause we had to open the forum to unrestrained public during that time 03:13:56 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:17:48 -!- rme [rme@clozure-7EDAA9D3.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:17:48 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-106-137-119.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 03:22:32 -!- 5EXABGHVU [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:23:46 p_l: I'm actually a bit disappointed that the spammers are making it so easy for my spam filter. ;-) 03:24:30 Maybe I've only been found by one clan of spammers but all their messages are in the same very weird form. 03:25:33 benny [~user@i577A24C6.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:25:38 radsis [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:47 gigamonkey: someone put bbcode into wordpress spam, simple 03:27:35 Actually this is on my Code Quarterly site. So none of the syntax they're trying to use works. 03:29:10 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-72-48.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:29:16 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-72-48.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:30:17 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 03:40:29 MarcusTullius [~user@242.103.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 03:44:38 -!- radsis [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:45:25 jyper_noscreen [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:28 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-nsrntkvjyvbdsxiq] has joined #lisp 03:47:46 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:49:30 -!- jyper_noscreen [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:50:41 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-72-48.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:51:47 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118-93-72-48.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:55:08 fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:55:09 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 03:55:33 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:58:28 G0SUB [~ghoseb@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 03:59:05 tcleval [~funnyguy@187.58.88.50] has joined #lisp 03:59:26 do your guys know if ABCL can be used with J2ME? 04:00:06 tcleval: no idea, but it should work 04:00:32 -!- drwho [~drwho@c-68-63-83-105.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: A known mistake is better than an unknown truth.] 04:06:53 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07:22 jyper_noscreen [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:23 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:48 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-72-48.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:24:48 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@cpe-24-59-205-231.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 04:25:36 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:25:37 Good morning everyone! 04:26:01 -!- CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:31:53 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:53 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 04:31:53 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 04:36:54 -!- c|mell [~cmell@188-220-238-74.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:30 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:51:38 -!- Agent001 [~Agent001@adsl-70-132-7-242.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:53:08 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:55 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@121.90.24.151] has joined #lisp 05:04:13 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 05:07:00 -!- AqD|Home [~AqD|Home@122-116-21-207.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 05:11:05 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:12:27 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:12:45 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:29:38 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 05:33:20 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-254-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:33:28 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-254-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 05:39:12 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:39:55 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 05:42:18 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:42:45 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@63-225-214-239.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:43:50 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@121.90.24.151] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:45:21 antivigilante [~antivigil@63-225-214-239.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:17 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:48:03 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:57:56 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@63-225-214-239.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:04:08 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 06:11:24 -!- Fox1111 [~~3@203-219-242-59.tpgi.com.au] has quit [] 06:12:21 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:14:21 richard28530 [richard@117.43.244.165] has joined #lisp 06:15:07 -!- richard28530 [richard@117.43.244.165] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:15:26 richard28530 [richard@117.43.244.165] has joined #lisp 06:15:50 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:16:08 -!- richard28530 [richard@117.43.244.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:18:13 fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:53 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:20:35 is there another, more formal name for "tree shaking"? 06:23:30 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:23:34 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:26:25 fusss: afaik it might be one of the most formal... another could be "dead code elimination" etc. 06:27:40 also, beach is definitely too cheerfull in the morning :P 06:27:49 *p_l* is a night owl 06:28:20 dead-code elimination is a more basic, code oriented feature (i.e. operates directly on the program's parsed text, usually as basic-blocks). While tree-shaking actually takes a machete to the libraries against which the application links. 06:29:12 fusss: the thing is, tree-shaking encompasses several techniques that fall under various names, but are used together so extensively only in few systems 06:29:12 FWIW, I think tree-shaking is an specialization of the run-time system and user libraries for a specific application 06:30:11 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 06:30:20 do you think tree-shaking more-or-less= partial evaluation? 06:32:26 <_3b> those seem pretty orthogonal to me 06:33:19 fusss: tree-shaking might employ partial evaluation... 06:33:36 btw, C had tree shaker since before Unix V7 06:34:51 though it's rarely used nowadays 06:37:43 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-254-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:39:00 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-254-128.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:40:50 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:41:22 does someone know how to remove n elements at the beginning of an adjustable vector with a fill-pointer ? 06:41:40 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 06:42:12 I thought I could just use adjust-array with a displaced-index-offset, but it says it cannot resize an array to a size smaller than it's fill pointer 06:45:03 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 06:45:08 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node158.html 06:46:10 well I tried to use a make-array displaced to the original vector with a displaced-index-offset, but it messes with the fill-pointer 06:46:12 http://jtra.cz/stuff/lisp/sclr/make-array.html 06:46:49 I get the right vector (ie. the origin without the first n elements), but with the same fill-pointer that the original vector 06:47:16 fill-pointer is for one-dimensional array 06:47:27 as far as i can see from the docs 06:47:29 homie: thank you, but I have the hyperspec pages of make-array and adjust array in front of me :) 06:47:35 ah ok 06:47:36 yep, ie. vectors 06:47:58 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:48:29 basically, I just want a way to transform #(1 2 3 4 5) in #(3 4 5), the fill pointers being respectively 5 and 3 06:49:03 *fusss* thinks it might be a better idea to try a native build of ECL with NDK, instead of shoehorning ABCL into Android's javaland 06:50:28 *p_l* wishes for some nice toolkit to manipulate object files at low level, so he could add custom init routine to ECL dynamic loading, for example 06:50:28 did you already try something like this ? http://www.adras.com/adjustable-arrays.t11262-51.html 06:52:14 afaics it's possible... 06:53:18 homie: ok using make-array correctly works 06:53:22 afk 06:53:34 hope it's efficient, it's to consume a byte buffer :) 06:53:58 galdor: What is the application that requires you to do that? I am asking because sometimes you can just store the elements in reversed order. 06:54:13 beach: parsing a byte buffer 06:54:34 I read some bytes, use them then consume them 06:54:41 and sometimes I append to the end of the vector 06:54:57 galdor: Perhaps you might want to use the Flexichain library then. 06:55:12 minion: Please tell galdor about Flexichain. 06:55:13 galdor: please see Flexichain: A Library needed by Climacs and Gsharp. http://www.cliki.net/Flexichain 06:55:20 I'll look at it then, thank you :) 06:55:36 galdor: It was designed for that kind of situation. 06:55:41 oh perfect 06:55:47 I gotta go, but I'll test it asap 06:55:56 -!- jyper_noscreen [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:56:13 thank you 06:56:20 No problem. 06:56:21 rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-163-163.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:01:59 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:02:03 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:02:13 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:02:16 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 07:03:19 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:04:12 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.160.125] has joined #lisp 07:10:08 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:10:33 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:10:45 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:11:29 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@221.245.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:12:19 Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 07:17:12 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 07:19:29 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-17-190.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:19:30 -!- lavoiecs [~lavoiecs@modemcable236.51-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:20:17 -!- rbarraud__ [~rbarraud@118-93-163-163.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:22:17 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:23:26 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-127-69.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:23:26 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:28:25 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:31:06 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-119-254.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:58 -!- rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-135-9.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:46:06 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:04 -!- Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:50:58 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A0BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:31 nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 07:54:19 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:56:17 -!- prip [~foo@host65-129-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:57:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:58:34 -!- manic121 [~andrew@99-100-67-123.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:05:19 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 08:07:15 greee, java's toString method has no knowledge of streams, unlike print-object 08:07:33 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 08:07:43 it's more of a debugging feature than anything else 08:12:25 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 08:13:59 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Quit: jan247] 08:14:24 jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has joined #lisp 08:14:24 -!- jan247 [~jan247@58.71.51.194] has quit [Changing host] 08:14:24 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 08:17:46 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 08:18:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:19:26 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:20:11 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 08:22:02 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:22:43 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:22:57 good morning 08:24:22 prip [~foo@host83-121-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:25:00 vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:55 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A0BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:29:47 jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has joined #lisp 08:33:03 Why does define-constant use EQL as default test? Doesn't that make behave the same as defconstant in the default case? 08:33:12 *make it 08:34:22 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:35:12 Also, why is it called :initial-contentS rather than just initial-content? The plural form sounds a bit weird to my non-native ears 08:35:19 i don't know which define-constant you're talking about, but wouldn't making the default behaviour the same as for defconstant be a good design? 08:35:56 jdz: Perhaps, on the other hand if I want that behaviour, I just use defconstant 08:36:15 jdz: It's in alexandria, and its purpose is that you can specify an arbitrary test predicate 08:36:37 tcr: yes, but if you want a different behaviour, you should specify it explicitly, right? 08:36:55 I already AM explicitly using another operator 08:37:04 then the problem is? 08:37:53 I never use define-constant in its default way, hence questioning its choice of default value 08:37:58 -!- l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 08:38:28 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:38:29 tcr: well, from my point of view any other default for the test would be as arbitrary 08:38:30 I guess other people use define-constant for every occasion, forgetting about defconstant alltogether :-) 08:38:35 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:39:13 Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 08:39:13 but then I also use SETQ instead of SETF on lexical variables 08:39:20 so why not go with the eql, which is the default test throughout the CL 08:40:34 l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 08:44:18 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634293.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:45:25 lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:45:37 fullets [~fullets@121-73-224-254.broadband.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:14 what version of clisp did you compile from freebsd-ports? 08:48:45 Is there a better way to convert a vector to a list than (map 'list #'identity some-vector) ? 08:48:59 (coerce vector 'list) 08:50:03 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440354.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:50:34 Thanks! I suspected there was something :) 08:50:48 14WAA7XL9 [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:19 smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:13 fwiw, after a long while of using EQL, we switched the default of the constant definer in hu.dwim.def (what's the point of a default value which you override 99% of the time?) 08:57:24 i'm not particularly opposed to making it default to EQUAL in alexandria 09:01:53 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A0BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:22 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 09:07:09 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-163-163.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:16:14 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-219-136.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:20:16 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:23:03 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.160.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:26:28 execve_ [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:29:35 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:31:27 default it to EQUALP. might as well go all the way 09:32:02 jsoft [~jsoft@60.234.231.122] has joined #lisp 09:34:32 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-46-10.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 09:35:55 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-44-235.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:36:51 -!- pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:36:53 -!- 14WAA7XL9 [~quassel@c-24-22-21-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 09:37:03 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:37:04 pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 09:37:04 -!- pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Changing host] 09:37:04 pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 09:37:51 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:38:34 xan_ [~xan@46.204.192.61.tokyo.bflets.alpha-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:39:05 makks [~makks@p5DE8F387.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:11 hiho fellas 09:40:29 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 09:42:46 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.3.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:44:20 symbole` [~user@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:24 Anyone knows if elephant runs on ECL? 09:45:55 -!- symbole [~user@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:46:55 -!- l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:49:01 l_a_m [~nlamiraul@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 09:49:45 TeMPOraL [~user@erlang.pnet.com.pl] has joined #lisp 09:50:13 noone? :/ 09:51:54 antifuchs: equalp is not a good idea, because of capital/lowercase characters... that could be surprising when C-cC-c'ing constants... 09:52:50 well ok then, whats a good way to include a hash table at compile time? I thought about building the hash table out of a list in a eval-when 09:53:53 clhs load-time-value 09:53:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_ld_tim.htm 09:54:10 eval-when is toplevel only 09:58:29 ok so I do (defparameter *hash* (load-time-value (form load alist from file make hash and return it))? 10:00:27 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:00:47 cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has joined #lisp 10:02:16 attila_lendvai: true, true 10:02:51 loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has joined #lisp 10:03:32 freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:05:01 manuel__ [~manuel_@tmo-100-231.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 10:09:38 splittist [~dmurray@163-245.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:09:40 morning 10:12:31 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-140-140.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:51 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:14:48 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:16:19 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-17-246-43.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:20:33 -!- manuel__ [~manuel_@tmo-100-231.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Quit: manuel__] 10:21:49 AqD|Home [~AqD|Home@122-116-21-207.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:57 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:28:18 -!- Aferlak12 [~Aferlak12@64.120.233.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:46 hello splittist 10:30:22 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 10:30:51 Yo beach. Lots of impressive sicl-ing! I hope your Vietnamese is improving similarly impressively! 10:31:36 splittist: Thanks. Yes I am making good progress. Today I spend all day studying Vietnamese. 10:32:19 splittist: What are you up to these days? 10:32:53 -!- cch [~user@2001:da8:8001:240:222:68ff:fe14:6de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:33:18 -!- fullets [~fullets@121-73-224-254.broadband.telstraclear.net] has quit [Quit: fullets] 10:33:50 rlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:53 beach: same-old, same-old. Just come off a tough couple of days producing a couple of hundred pages of docs - using mainly lisp (: 10:34:24 For work, I suppose? 10:34:33 indeed. 10:35:01 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 10:35:34 *splittist* doesn't think he's produced a couple of hundred pages of prose other than for work or school in his life. 10:36:10 *p_l* is slowly working on two novels, otoh :D 10:36:18 Although maybe if you added up all my stupid emails and irc messages... 10:36:35 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:36:38 Yuuhi [benni@p5483A395.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:14 fusss_ [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:37:39 Of course, you may consider that poetry rather than prose... 10:38:02 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:38:11 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 10:38:19 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #lisp 10:39:18 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:32 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:40:28 makks: you don't need load-time-value there 10:40:33 beach: (excuse me if you've been asked about this, you probably have) why do you base so much of sicl on `loop'? 10:41:12 nikodemus: why? 10:41:12 morning 10:42:07 -!- jan247 [~jan247@unaffiliated/jan247] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:42:34 morning Xof 10:43:14 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:44:33 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:47:07 -!- execve_ [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:47:27 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:48:33 makks: (defparameter *foo* (load-time-value (foo))) doesn't differ from (defparameter *foo* (foo)) in any significant way -- assuming the defparameter is at the toplevel 10:48:58 hm ok 10:49:09 However, (defun bar () (load-time-value (list 1 2 3))) (eq (bar) (bar)) => t 10:49:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:51:33 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:52:31 I am wiriting a library to associate file names with meta information like mime-type and some custom stuff, so I basically just need to build a database (in form of two hash tables) out of lists at compile time so its fast at runtime 11:01:30 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.9/20100824153629]] 11:02:17 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-254-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:02:22 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-254-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:02:35 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-nsrntkvjyvbdsxiq] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:03:23 homie [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:03:25 wbooze [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:09:05 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:17:29 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203.214.126.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:17:52 TraumaPwny [~TraumaPon@203-206-28-19.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:18:29 Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 11:19:52 -!- TraumaPwny is now known as TraumaPony 11:22:29 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7558b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:07 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-78-153.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 11:25:54 CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 11:27:02 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A0BE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:27:51 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:28:43 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 11:31:19 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-163-163.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:33:10 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:35:17 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:36:56 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 11:41:37 jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has joined #lisp 11:42:00 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:43:02 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:45:29 Would any of you mind if I brought two people in here who seem to think Lisp is a poor choice for writing efficient (AI) programs, and that Java is a saner choice? 11:45:30 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:45:41 I am just not quite as articulate as some of you here. 11:47:12 let them be 11:48:06 hrm, maybe that's the best approach. I guess in my experience I've never really successfully convinced someone that lisp is a better option. 11:48:59 Quadrescence: it would probably not be the best option if that person had a grudge against Lisp. 11:49:21 I don't think they have a grudge 11:49:27 They just seem very mis-informed. 11:49:37 When choice for "best" is concerned, the lack of metrics and power of subjectivity are hard to handle. 11:50:26 As far as I'm concerned, the best language depends often on the practical problem I need to solve. "AI" is too vague for me to make any choice. 11:51:07 I choose the language that popped in my head when I visualised the algorithms or data structures 11:51:23 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:51:49 And also on my degree of "playfulness" of the day :) 11:51:54 Axioplase_: I agree about AI being too vague. 11:52:01 -!- guther [guther@92-55-242-8.net.pbthawe.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:52:17 sellout [~greg@64.134.66.170] has joined #lisp 11:53:17 guther [guther@92-55-242-8.net.pbthawe.eu] has joined #lisp 11:53:33 I don't have more time for your pals, but hopefully someone will fix some misconceptions they have. Trying to convert them might be too much though: you don't like a language nor understand it's advantages/drawbacks without getting your hands dirty 11:53:53 "[lisp is] still pretty lacking in the grand scheme of things [libraries], no where near the coverage C/C++/Java or even C# might have (And i am not someone to recomend C# usually)" 11:53:59 Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:15 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-140-140.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:54:38 "and i can never remember the order of parameters in lisp, at least java IDE like netbeans or eclipse can tell me what goes where in an expression" 11:54:50 "lisp is far too much of a fringe language unfortunately.. despite any inherent benefits in the language itself it just isnt main stream enough to be a good choice for most projects (unless the project is purely academic or a few special cases)" 11:54:59 "lisp is also relatively inefficient on von neumann architecture" 11:55:00 :( 11:55:04 zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #lisp 11:55:15 Tell'em to use "keys", They won't have to remember the order of parameters. 11:55:32 Plus, slime will tell em the order of any function in fact. 11:55:37 I just told them slime handles that stuff 11:56:01 Quadrescence: my quicklisp install lists 612 systems. 11:56:02 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 11:56:21 As far as libs are concerned, I don't know their needs. And sometimes, there is no such lib because a better or simpler choice exists. 11:56:28 Quadrescence: my slime installation prompts me with the parameters 11:56:40 splittist: yeah 11:56:50 blitz_ [~blitz@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 11:56:55 Quadrescence: the third statement is just that, not an argument 11:57:03 (I never read/write XML or Yaml because I'm happy with S-exps. But that's egoistic, I know) 11:57:06 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-140-140.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:17 Quadrescence: and the last is just buzzword babble 11:57:44 As far as main stream is concerned: programming is about getting the job done, not using the mainstream buzzwords. 11:58:24 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 11:58:34 Yeah 11:58:47 *_3b* thinks the 'fringe' argument is valid, but also a good filter for 'jobs/projects i don't want to work on' anyway :p 11:58:56 Tell'em you know people who used scheme/lisp in 100% of their jobs, and that the customers were happy with the software they paid for. 11:59:47 _3b: haha 11:59:49 *_3b* probably disagrees on the number of 'special cases' though 11:59:59 *Axioplase_* is now outta here. 12:00:16 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:01:33 good morning! Hey, what do you guys use for mobile development? and does ABCL work with J2ME? 12:01:50 -!- CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:03:19 tychoish [~tychoish@foucault.cyborginstitute.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:17 urandom__ [~user@p548A2B40.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:38 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:38 revel0___ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 12:10:34 Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:11:43 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:25 -!- _3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:13:40 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:14:28 jmbr [~jmbr@bpcmat07.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 12:15:00 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 12:15:02 _3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:03 Quadrescence: I agree with the others here that it is nearly impossible to convince people who do not want to let themselves be convinced, simply because the argument is not about facts, but more about feelings. 12:16:00 tcleval: "mobile development" is that the developer that moves, or the end product? 12:16:07 beach: The more problematic thing is when feelings seemingly turn into facts (for the person with whom you're arguing) 12:16:24 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 12:17:01 hello lispers 12:17:12 Quadrescence: We humans seem to be made that way. Unless we believed ourselves that those feelings were really facts, we would end up with some serious cognitive dissonance. 12:17:18 hello kiuma 12:17:20 Yeah 12:17:22 I've found this maybe it's usefull to someone 12:17:44 http://daniel-albuschat.blogspot.com/2009/02/fbsql-clean-client-libraries-for.html 12:18:42 beach: maybe both? 12:19:10 beach, imho not the dev not the product, but the need 12:19:16 Quadrescence: This is why trying to convince someone based on some incorrect assumption of theirs, just won't work, because when they realize that, they switch to a different argument. 12:20:13 beach: Yep, that's what happened with me just now. We moved from lisp to how emacs is essentially equivalent to netbeans because the latter uses plugins, and the former is just more esoteric. 12:20:14 beach: do you know of anyone using CL to develop apps for Cell Phones? 12:20:44 (that was after an argument that clojure is better than CL because it is more "modern", and doesn't use old cryptic stuff like CAR and CDR) 12:21:19 Quadrescence: You will find some interesting facts in this essay: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html 12:21:41 tcleval: mvilleneuve is doing just that. 12:22:13 beach: You're an instructor (teacher, professor, assistant), right? 12:22:27 Quadrescence: Yes, I am. 12:22:29 *_3b* uses CL to compile a CL variant to flash to run on my n800, it isn't quite a cell phone thugh 12:22:45 beach: What specifically, if I may ask? 12:23:31 Quadrescence: I am a professor of Computer Science at the University of Bordeaux. 12:23:58 *ivan4th* ported CLISP to N900 and also tries to find time to play with ccl on N900 a bit more 12:24:27 beach: Oh man, I've always wanted to visit the Uni of Bordeaux. 12:24:44 <_3b> yeah, i would have tried clisp on it, but it was broken on arm at the time (and that still would have left me needing to figure out some gui with lisp bindings on maemo) 12:25:02 Quadrescence: I suggest you do. 12:25:30 http://jlongster.com/blog/2010/01/29/tweening/ seems pretty cool (mentioned recently on openmcl-devel, but actually about Scheme, not Common Lisp) 12:26:55 beach: I'm in the USA. Is the University of Bordeaux (I'll just refer to the university as "Bordeaux" henceforth) affiliated with INRIA at all? 12:26:58 I assume so. 12:27:13 _3b: my main problem with lisp on the device was that asdf-install is somewhat outdated and clbuild is hard to use as one has to install sdk packages to get svn, git, darcs etc. which is PITA. I tried quicklisp on ccl under maemo recently but it fails with ICE somewhere in minichipz. need to build ARM ccl myself... 12:27:48 *_3b* would probably just manage packages on a desktop and dump it all on an sd card or something :p 12:28:05 ivan4th: ICE? 12:28:22 Xach: it signalled an error from some depths of the compiler 12:28:41 hmm, clisp does JIT, doesn't it? 12:28:47 Does it have to, or can it be disabled? 12:28:59 Xach: wrong number of arguments for some func or something like that 12:29:01 ivan4th: darn 12:29:24 minichipz could be minimized more. right now it is a pretty simplistic dump of everything in chipz, but i don't need bzip2 support. 12:29:29 <_3b> rsynnott: i'd expect it isn't required, fairly new feature as far as i know 12:29:37 rsynnott: I didn't dig into clisp bytecode interpreter. And the compiler error occurs with CCL 12:29:43 rsynnott: it has to be enabled at ./configure-time 12:29:45 *rsynnott* must try giving it a go on the iPhone 12:29:49 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 12:29:56 ivan4th: oh, running CCL on ARM? 12:29:59 (JIT is verboten on the iPhone) 12:30:03 Xach: perhaps disabling optimization may fix the error, but I would prefer to find & fix the bug in the compiler 12:30:08 -!- nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:30:10 rsynnott: afaik no longer? 12:30:17 p_l: yes, tried it a bit 12:30:19 rsynnott: it's only verboten to run downloaded code? 12:30:20 rsynnott: and IIRC it has bitrotted a little, because it wouldn't compile the last time I tried 12:30:20 <_3b> rsynnott: i thought it was just downloading was against the rules now? 12:30:24 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:30:28 p_l: nope; interpreters are allowed, as are random compilers 12:30:35 lichtblau: wow, that does seem pretty cool (: 12:30:42 but the iPhone has a kernel-level feature which stops JIT from working 12:30:55 (once you modify a piece of memory you may not run it) 12:31:11 same restriction as most games consoles 12:31:25 non-JITing bytecode interpreters are fine, though 12:31:31 <_3b> yeah, broken is a different issue :) 12:31:39 rsynnott: hmmm... so you can't request modifiable executable data? 12:31:46 p_l: apparently not 12:31:48 -!- revel0___ [~revel0@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:31:49 what about mapping it from disk? 12:31:49 unless jailbroken 12:32:07 *ivan4th* played a bit with an iPad recently and immediatelly ran into dreaded 'wifi greyed out' problem. And they tell me that maemo is buggy after that... 12:32:15 as far as I know it works by the kernel refusing to run executable stuff which isn't signed 12:32:17 Yeah, CCL is having fun with that now http://clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2010-September/011901.html 12:32:27 rsynnott: ah 12:32:30 though I haven't looked in any detail 12:32:42 very common security feature on consoles and things 12:32:47 *_3b* 's problem with maemo is that they seem to have completely stopped caring about n800, no upgrades for me :( 12:33:09 Quadrescence: There is a branch of the INRIA associated with the LaBRI which is the CS lab here. 12:33:27 (Apple is worried that people will write apps which pretend to be benign-thing, then once zero-day escalation exploit is found, download some machine code and run it, taking over the phone) 12:33:40 this is what those two apps that Google remotely erased from peoples' phones did 12:34:06 nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 12:34:09 downloading code is banned, of course, but they have no way to actually enforce that 12:34:19 anyone have a PDF version of sicl.tex handy? 12:34:42 G0SUB [~ghoseb@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 12:34:46 _3b: AFAIK n900 is basically in the same boat; most future effort will be on meego 12:34:52 rsynnott: They legally can't, really 12:34:55 IIRC. 12:35:11 (in the USA) 12:35:16 _3b: so what are the alternatives on the CL world for Cell Phone, Smart Phone, Iphone development? 12:35:25 Quadrescence: oh, they certainly can on apps put in their app store 12:35:38 but they have no practical way to screen for it right now 12:35:39 Oh yeah, I guess 12:35:47 I misunderstood kind of 12:35:53 luis: This one? http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/sicl.pdf 12:36:17 in any case, the kernel-level feature solves the security issue, but is unfortunate for people wanting to use JIT 12:36:24 <_3b> tcleval: dunno, my phone is ancient :p i'd probably try flash first, or try to port my compiler if i had a decent phone, or ccl once it gets arm support working 12:37:14 _3b: how do you use flash with CL? or do you use only flash? 12:37:26 luis: Some of the stuff in there is no longer accurate. 12:37:28 <_3b> tcleval: i wrote a compiler for it :p 12:37:49 _3b: really? that is cool. is it online? I mean, is it open? 12:37:55 <_3b> tcleval: not full cl, but the intersection of the language it supports and CL grows as i use it 12:38:17 <_3b> tcleval: http://github.com/3b/3bil 12:38:56 -!- potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-098572d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:39:03 <_3b> also gets a lot closer to CL thanks to beach's work on sicl :) 12:39:20 _3b: and does flash work for most mobile devices? 12:39:41 <_3b> not apple stuff, don't know beyond that 12:40:04 _3b: apple is C only? 12:40:06 *_3b* isn't sure if the adobe flash AOT compiler thing works on bytecode or if it needs AS3 source 12:40:24 Does anyone recommend any resources for learning how to effectively make type hierarchies and such? More specifically, I want to have types which are parameterizable (for instance, a type like (Matrix ), where might be Integer, and this entire matrix type might be a subtype of AdditiveGroup). I am not concerned about the types being static. 12:40:28 <_3b> apple is 'stuff apple controls' only :p 12:40:57 <_3b> for a while they only allowed objc and js or something like that, recently relaxed the restrictions a bit 12:42:43 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.165] has joined #lisp 12:42:46 _3b: I believe it uses bytecode 12:43:30 <_3b> p_l: the compiler you mean? 12:43:38 _3b: yeah. 12:43:54 they've got some nifty bytecode stuff, including LLVM targeting AS3 12:45:17 _3b: I was hopping ABCL could work with J2ME. 12:45:32 _3b: proper Flash is on some android 2.2 phones, plus the n900 12:45:43 a lot of phones have 'flash lite', which is rather limited 12:46:10 the Adobe AOT compiler might work, but is currently of extremely low quality 12:49:37 *_3b* would probably just try to write my own low-quality compiler if i had an iphone to target :) 12:50:09 _3b: on the case of IPhone it could be a CL->JS compiler 12:50:40 <_3b> yeah, parenscript is another option if JS is enough 12:50:41 I believe Zhivago was writing something like a lisp->js compiler. I don't know for sure though, I just vaguely recall something about that. 12:50:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@46.204.192.61.tokyo.bflets.alpha-net.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:50:52 let's make an LPhone' 12:50:54 lol 12:51:21 <_3b> yeah, there are a few options for compiling to JS 12:51:48 <_3b> (not sure how many of them are actually available or useful though) 12:51:59 homie: if you mean lisp phone and if by that you mean downsizing the macivory chip made by symbolics, that would be the coolest thing ever 12:52:01 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-119-254.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- In tests, 0x09 out of 0x0A l33t h4x0rz prefer it :)] 12:52:21 they have a chip for lisp ? 12:52:33 anyway I continue not to understand the need cl->js 12:52:39 homie: yes 12:52:45 wah 12:52:46 what's wrong with js 12:52:47 ? 12:52:59 homie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKj7tX_nMHQ 12:53:24 <_3b> kiuma: my excuse is that slime is nicer than mozrepl :) 12:54:28 *_3b* also gets annoyed by ))])}})] stuff and othe js syntax issues 12:54:41 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 12:54:45 _3b, I use dojo for js and Firebug of course, I feel good with both , I prefer cl for cl and js for js 12:55:14 _3b, you are talking like people that say to be anoyed by ))))))))))))))))))))) 12:55:17 :) 12:55:32 <_3b> kiuma: at least i can always close the ((( with another ) :) 12:55:49 I saw here something related to swank-for-R, also there are remnants of swank-rb in SLIME contrib. It must be possible to write swank backend for another non-lisp language like js then? Unfortunately I can't use cl and/or some lisp->js compiler for my main project at work 12:55:53 <_3b> (((({{([(({ takes more though to close properly 12:55:57 <_3b> *thought 12:56:11 I like js... but I agree with _3b after working with YUI... }); pairings get annoying 12:56:15 ivan4th: I have had swank and js running before 12:56:29 ivan4th: I will have to find the webpage for it 12:56:42 and its probably way out of date 12:56:59 and I usually cut fingers to clollegues whan I find ))]))})) 12:57:04 Jabberwockey [~jens@89.204.137.176] has joined #lisp 12:57:05 bobbysmith007: it would be nice. mozrepl is somewhat tiresome even after I modified it to support utf-8 and reattach on reload 12:57:07 *collegues 12:58:12 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:58:20 cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:48 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:42 revel0___ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:59:53 js has advantage (over other scripting languages) of js2-mode that provides full AST inside emacs. this can be used to make SLIME+js more useful 13:00:36 ivan4th: I guess I misremembered what was going on http://the.unwashedmeme.com/blog/2005/06/02/javascript-shellserver-for-emacs/ (not actually swank, just socket connections) 13:00:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 13:01:00 *_3b* wonders how hard it would be to tell slime-proxy how to use js directly 13:01:16 bobbysmith007: mozrepl gives something like that, but it's a bit too dumb 13:01:23 <_3b> (not that i have any interest in trying, since i prefer ps anyway :) 13:01:41 homie, I can tell you why a lisp phone wouldn't be a good idea (not that writing the software for a phone in lisp isn't a great idea) 13:02:17 _3b: I would prefer ps too, but it's impractical to use it in a large python+js project 13:02:30 it's the same problem as using a phone for any other sort of programming 13:02:31 <_3b> well, just get rid of the python too :) 13:02:46 _3b: no one will pay me for that :( 13:03:02 the ergonomics of trying to program on such a small device with slow input is frustrating and painful 13:03:23 <_3b> (or feel free to hack slime-proxy for js if you are bored and don't mind keeping around an extra CL for it) 13:04:00 *_3b* suspects something like mozrepl would be a better starting point though 13:04:07 CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@210.8.79.105] has joined #lisp 13:04:12 -!- CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@210.8.79.105] has quit [Changing host] 13:04:12 CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 13:04:28 as it is, on a notebook or desktop with a good keyboard, typing somewhere between 70 to 130 wpm, it feels like the keyboard is a bottleneck to programming 13:04:36 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.195] has joined #lisp 13:04:50 <_3b> puddingpimp: sounds like you need a less verbose language 13:04:57 not to say that I'm typing non-stop, but I can't move on to the next idea until I've written the current idea down 13:05:03 perhaps APL :) 13:05:11 _3b, that's why I love perl, lol 13:05:12 *_3b* was thinking J, but yeah :) 13:05:35 <_3b> (or forth/lisp with lots of DSL) 13:05:51 well, m-/ helps when I'm writing lisp 13:06:06 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-72-228-177-92.buffalo.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 13:06:17 and perl, dabbrev-mode too 13:06:37 but the ideal of programming should be programming at the speed of thought 13:07:12 I think I'd be afraid of what my code might reveal about me, if that were the case ;) 13:07:19 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:07:27 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:07:30 I still find lisp much slower than perl, mostly because I'm new, and I'm spending more time reading the CLHS than typing 13:07:32 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:07:41 btw, can anyone provide some pointers on how can I build CCL for ARM from sources? I'd like to debug the quicklisp compilation problem 13:07:55 puddingpimp: that reminds me of the joke 13:08:09 <_3b> #ccl probably can, if nobody here knows 13:08:23 -!- revel0___ [~revel0@212.88.117.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:08:32 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 13:08:35 ivan4th: Also this mailing list: http://clozure.com/mailman/listinfo/openmcl-devel 13:08:42 thanks 13:08:46 is there a way to get an offline copy of the CLHS that displays in emacs, I'm using slime-hyperspec-whatever, and it opens in firefox, but it breaks my train-of-emacs 13:09:10 puddingpimp: A Mainer went to visit a Texas rancher. The rancher said "At dawn I get in my truck and start driving. I'm still not at the other end of my ranch at dusk!" The Mainer said "I used to have a truck like that, too." 13:09:16 <_3b> i think you can get an info version, or open the html in an emacs browser 13:09:46 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:48 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:09:51 usually run slime-describe-... and sulk at the uselessness of the definition given 13:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:09 compiled-function, yea AND??? 13:10:32 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 13:10:48 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 13:12:38 -!- CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:12:48 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:13:08 ivan4th: btw, there is a #ccl channel 13:13:58 Xach, I'm not from Texas or Maine, I'm not quite sure what the punch of the joke is 13:14:34 I guess the Texan is talking about the massive size of his ranch 13:14:54 puddingpimp: Ok, a guy from New Zealand visits his cousin's station in Australia... 13:15:16 "I used to have a ute like that too!" 13:15:23 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 13:15:52 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.165] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 13:16:04 *Xach* fails at translation 13:16:31 What's a ute? Oh, excuse me, your honor. Two YOUTHS. 13:17:35 Xach, so is the Perl rancher from Texas or Maine? 13:17:57 puddingpimp: what happens when your truck throws a rod? 13:18:21 -!- jgracin [~jgracin@dh111-186.xnet.hr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:34 puddingpimp: I'm not sure. 13:18:37 This is like watching a metaphorical train wreck. 13:19:04 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-zkeffbygiqokyrzq] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:19:07 puddingpimp: you can configure emacs so that it uses another web browser. 13:19:08 Adamant, our trucks have DOHC 13:19:12 One like w3m. 13:19:20 sellout: anyone selling popcorn? 13:19:23 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:32 non-metaphorical, I'm kinda hungry 13:20:17 rrice [~rrice@76.253.135.9] has joined #lisp 13:20:19 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:21:28 I'm sick of seeing arguments like: Perl is lisp, Python is lisp, Ruby is lisp ... if it doesn't say it on the box, it's not lisp 13:22:22 puddingpimp: there's a way to get an offline copy (look for a package called hyperspec in your distribution) and you can configure hyperspec.el to point to that one 13:23:06 or try the dpans2texi package to convert the final draft's .tex files into info or html of pdf (: 13:27:17 or better yet, some kind of klikibunti iPad app (; 13:28:04 sellout, I live in NZ, and I never did quite understand the difference between a ute and a pickup truck, to me a ute is a car chassis pickup truck, like a Maloo, or a Falcon ute 13:28:21 and a pickup truck is a ladder chassis 13:28:49 but then some people call Toyota Hilux and other things with ladder chassis utes 13:28:49 puddingpimp: We don't have "utes" in the US  I assumed they were SUVs. 13:29:22 "Maloo", "Falcon", and "Hilux" are also unknown :) 13:29:29 sellout, no, a ute is like a sedan with the back chopped off and replaced with a tail platform 13:29:49 http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?imgurl=http://images.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2007/112_0712_07z%2Bholden_HSV_maloo_r8%2Bfront_three_quarter_view.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f67/video-review-hsv-maloo-r8-307kw-ls2-ute-i-just-want-one-60319/&h=469&w=750&sz=75&tbnid=I64tx5Gtuv4kOM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=141&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaloo&zoom=1&q=maloo&usg=__SXPpOsnyZ3t_25_63hzeQMaH9uY=&sa=X&ei=Q8qQTJqDE4qKvgPt87niCw&ved=0CCM 13:29:50 Q9QEwAA 13:30:23 ok, link fail. 13:30:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2002-2003_HSV_Maloo_%28Y_Series%29_R8_utility_01.jpg 13:30:47 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 13:31:50 to me, it's kind of better than a pickup truck if you live somewhere with paved roads, you can still pick up junk in the back of it 13:31:51 Hi! What do you use for GUI programming or grapghing with Lisp? Can you interface with Cocoa with McClim or some other toolkit? 13:31:59 splittist: unfortunately, I lost my .mobi version of the hyperspec that I created like this 13:32:00 but it has the fuel efficiency and driveability of a sedan 13:32:02 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:32:15 splittist: otherwise, it would be extremely trivial to convert into EPUB, which the iPad likes 13:32:27 peterhil: McClim does have a beagle backend for Obj-C, but I don't know it's state. 13:32:40 peterhil: CCL lets you use Cocoa more directly. 13:32:40 its 13:32:58 I'd say it's probably somewhere between not working very well and no longer working (-: 13:33:09 peterhil: (and McClim's beagle backend also depends on CCL's Cocoa bridge) 13:33:27 sellout: Ok, thanks. What about graphing? I would like to experiment with Minimum energey curves and Cloithoid (Euler) spirals... 13:33:37 john2496 [~john2496@rrcs-72-43-164-66.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:50 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:36:28 antifuchs: I was thinking something more ambitious, with elastic scrolling, pinch zooming, and text-to-speech rendering 'CLOS' as 'sea-loss' or otherwise depending on your proximity to Cambridge... 13:36:58 splittist: um, I think the iBooks thing already oes that (: 13:37:23 ah, but altering pronunciation geographic proximity to cambridge sounds like a great idea 13:37:44 peterhil: I'm not sure  I've hacked together some graphing stuff on my own, but it's not very general. I've also interfaced to Google Charts  or Graphs, or whatever it's called. I know there are other charting libs out there, but haven't used them. 13:38:25 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:38:43 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:39:42 ska` [~user@109-184-201-184.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has joined #lisp 13:40:10 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 13:40:19 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:42:34 CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 13:44:32 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:26 Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.209] has joined #lisp 13:45:56 zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:19 -!- Modius_ [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:46:30 rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has joined #lisp 13:47:45 abhinav [~abhinav@72.163.191.121] has joined #lisp 13:48:27 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:50:06 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:51:47 I haven't been truly happy with any graphing solution until I found matplotlib. There isn't anything in CL that could compare to it. 13:54:18 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:54:50 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:57:24 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@bpcmat07.mat.ucm.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:59:21 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 14:00:02 -!- abhinav [~abhinav@72.163.191.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:00:07 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:02:00 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:11 -!- incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:46 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:10:28 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:11:48 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:13:03 incandenza [~djm@ip68-231-109-244.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:50 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:14:43 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:15:54 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 14:18:48 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 14:19:06 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:18 lichtblau: I've been meaning to look at cl-dot. have you tried it? 14:24:05 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:24:38 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:25:05 skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:11 *ivan4th* succeeded in building ccl on N900 (on the device itself). the build took approximately 100 times less time than release build of clisp 14:25:31 nice! 14:25:32 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:25:39 beach: yep, that one. Thanks. 14:25:43 ivan4th: what did you have to do to generate the build? 14:27:25 svn co http://svn.clozure.com/publicsvn/openmcl/trunk/linuxarm/ccl , the first attempt failed due to unrecognized gcc option, had to replace -mfpu=vfpv2 with -mfpu=vfp in lisp-kernel/linuxarm/Makefile. After that, ./armcl and (ccl:rebuild-ccl :full t) did the trick 14:28:01 did it in chroot environment on sdk image 14:28:10 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:28:18 (so that I can have gcc without overflowing the root partition) 14:28:26 well, if you were to blog that, it'd get picked up on planet.lisp 14:29:03 will perhaps write an entry later 14:29:28 I'm going to try to fix it so I can run quicklisp 14:29:32 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:50 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-78-153.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:29:51 (as clbuild on the device is PITA) 14:30:37 clbuild is kindo of a pain to build everywhere. 14:30:40 by hand at least. 14:31:15 er, clisp rather. I dyslexed what you said. 14:31:40 you should try quicklisp and see how it works on the device. 14:31:57 Fade: that's what he said he's going to do :) 14:32:02 ericklc [~ikki@189.247.120.252] has joined #lisp 14:32:20 *Fade* is doing too many things at the same time 14:32:25 I'll shaddap now. :) 14:32:48 -!- TomJ [~tomj@89.241.155.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:06 Fade: I tried it and ccl compiler fails on minichipz due to an ARM-specific bug 14:33:30 other packages work? 14:34:11 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki 14:34:23 milanj [~milanj_@79-101-170-143.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 14:35:03 ...it perhaps can be fixed by switching optimizations off but this is uninteresting. Before that, I tried it with clbuild directory copied from my laptop, stuff like cl-ppcre etc. seem to work, cffi seems to (at least) load ok, but I didn't test it too much 14:35:24 pretty cool result. 14:35:41 I'd like to try commonqt there , but for that I will need to compile part of kdebindings somehow 14:35:49 -!- sellout [~greg@64.134.66.170] has quit [Quit: sellout] 14:36:02 spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.73.72] has joined #lisp 14:36:41 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 14:36:49 Fade: it seems like it all was tested to some extent by CCL developers on similar platform 14:36:59 lavoiecs [~lavoiecs@modemcable236.51-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 14:37:22 (I mean, most common libraries were tested) 14:38:03 that's excellent. 14:38:27 that's exciting 14:39:09 Has anyone managed to get it working on android yet? 14:40:52 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:41:01 I think android version is much harder to implement as android has only very rudimentary libc etc. 14:41:43 and making lispy bindings to all the GUI stuff sounds like a lot of hard word 14:41:46 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A74D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:22 luis: well, most of the GUI stuff is xml :\ 14:42:37 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:42:56 sykopomp: getting what running on android? 14:47:14 sykopomp: still, you'll need to subclass Activities, specialize methods, things like that. 14:48:37 you'd need to implement Android IPC as well 14:50:17 davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:20 TomJ [~tomj@89.241.155.73] has joined #lisp 14:51:15 p_l: CCL 14:51:56 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 14:52:05 luis: the bulk of the application can still be written using CCL, and then something like java or scala can be used as 'glue', no? 14:54:24 hi, someone has tried to get CLOS' methods to do dispatching on a special variable? using MOP 14:54:43 davazp: that's what contextl is all about. 14:55:14 great, thanks I will take a look 14:56:13 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-219-136.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:56:46 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@122.167.73.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:56:48 -!- Jabberwockey [~jens@89.204.137.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:56:55 Jabberwockey [~Jens@89.204.137.184] has joined #lisp 14:56:57 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@193.136.207.209] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 14:57:19 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:57:53 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jokblldurorwmveb] has joined #lisp 14:58:24 -!- makks [~makks@p5DE8F387.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:58:34 makks [~makks@p5DE8F387.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:20 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:59:56 HG` [~HG@85.8.91.226] has joined #lisp 15:02:08 Fade: I've used cl-dot, but not that recently... 15:04:57 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 15:07:52 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 15:10:06 sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:57 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:23 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:13:25 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-jokblldurorwmveb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:11 I wrote an XML pattern matcher some time ago which I use a lot at work. It can be used for web scraping etc., but as there are already several such libraries I'm afraid that it's perhaps redundant and I shouldn't take time to extract it from my code & publish as separate lib. What do you think? Some test code below... 15:14:27 http://paste.lisp.org/+2GE7 15:15:37 it uses closure-based compilation of patterns inspired by cl-ppcre 15:15:46 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 15:16:24 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 15:16:47 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:16:58 ivan4th: nice. i have something like that but much less developed 15:17:20 ivan4th: that looks really cool for dom queries 15:21:08 one of it's features is that if you have pattern like (:ul (:* (:li ?x))) ?x captures a list with an item for each
  • 15:22:08 s/it's/its/ 15:22:51 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:23:35 I use it where XPath queries get too cumbersome 15:23:49 arquebus [~shintaro@201.160.3.219.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 15:24:52 tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has joined #lisp 15:25:40 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.160.125] has joined #lisp 15:25:45 ivan4th: do you have something that compiles from XSD to that syntax? 15:27:30 -!- arquebus [~shintaro@201.160.3.219.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27:50 Xach: no, unfortunately not. Before I wrote this lib I thought of adapting cxml-rng so that I can base my patterns on Relax NG, but later decided that rolling my own sexpr based syntax is easier. And as of XSD, I'm a bit allergic to it since my .NET days 15:28:32 -!- john2496 [~john2496@rrcs-72-43-164-66.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:28:36 apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has joined #lisp 15:28:40 ivan4th: understandable :) 15:29:06 ivan4th: Amazon publishes lots of API data as XSD, and I'd like to automatically convert it. Right now I do it by hand, and it's error-prone. 15:29:20 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-098572d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:30:11 here is the matcher itself, before I get round to releasing it properly: http://paste.lisp.org/display/114560 -- may have unsatisfied external references 15:30:37 -!- kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:31:11 needs cxml-stp and alexandria, at the very least 15:31:28 *Xach* quickloads 15:32:00 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 15:32:08 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 15:32:48 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 15:33:38 john2496 [~john2496@rrcs-72-43-164-66.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:54 some missing funcs may be here http://github.com/ivan4th/i4-diet-utils/blob/master/i4-diet-utils.lisp 15:35:28 -!- rlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:35:48 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:36:16 rootzlevel [~hpd@91-66-216-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:23 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:36:54 and some here http://paste.lisp.org/+2GEA ... 15:37:11 looks to me like it'd be worth releasing. 15:37:23 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.195] has joined #lisp 15:37:49 -!- nunb [~nundan@121.243.225.226] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:37:57 Fade: ok, will do it 15:43:07 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:20 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:43:39 -!- bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has quit [Quit: Asta la vista] 15:44:07 coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-238-210.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:34 along with matcher I have xml transformation code that I use when XSLT gets too cumbersome :) The transformer macros are cumbersome and inefficient themselves, but they work... Transformation rules look like this: http://paste.lisp.org/+2GEB 15:45:12 I use it to convert some brain-damaged HTML into some predefined XML format 15:45:18 kjbrock [~kevin@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:44 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:54 sykopomp: in my experience so far, the bulk of an Android application is GUI stuff. :) 15:46:38 -!- bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:47:22 if you were doing android apps in lisp, you'd want to deliver the whole thing in lisp. 15:47:24 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 15:47:31 writing a java glue wrapper seems... fugly. 15:48:07 can ffi even handle calling back into lisp from java? 15:48:21 let alone google's weird dwarf java. 15:50:23 -!- kjbrock [~kevin@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:50:40 quack [~fhc@bl15-116-206.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:51:10 Fade: there's no support for fully native apps 15:52:42 kjbrock [~kevin@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has joined #lisp 15:53:33 yeah, that's what I understood. 15:53:48 -!- phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53:58 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:54:27 what worries me about mobile development in lisp is that the only way to ship the actual app is shipping an image. which may be ok if your app is objectively large (e.g. GPS navigation system), but does not feel ok for most little apps 15:54:35 you'd have to wedge in support to call into their display mechanism... idk. the n900/maemo seems like a better way, 'course, without the userbase of android. 15:55:25 if the apps were small, I guess you could provide a mechanism to download signed/compressed sources. 15:55:30 phadthai [mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:51 Fade: in this case, one will need to install Lisp implementation 15:55:54 Personally I'm looking at generating Dalvik bytecode from a "mini-CL" 15:56:07 aided with Java tree-shaker/minifier 15:56:27 have you done signifigant work on that, p_l? 15:57:10 Fade: not too much, but I'm starting to understand how DVM works. Lately I've been mainly modding at kernel level 15:58:09 i figured Clojure + Android might become a viable route. 15:58:14 ivan4th: installing runtimes for several language environments (and standard libraries) is common thing among applications. 15:58:32 Fade: Clojure hits the GC hard 15:59:13 p_l: but for now it is the only viable option in Lisp (not scheme) for desktop applications. 15:59:33 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:00:00 -!- coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-238-210.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:00:04 though I have yet to test it with ProGuard 16:00:16 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 16:00:20 also, installing multiple runtimes is definitely not something expected for mobile 16:00:44 shipping a stripped down package of bytecode would be better. 16:01:00 p_l: which subset of cl are you thinking? 16:01:23 -!- makks [~makks@p5DE8F387.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 16:01:27 maemo has no problems with python runtime as different libs are packaged as separate debs... with CL, this is a problem, after all, c-l-c doesn't seem to do well... :( 16:01:40 Fade: CL without runtime eval/compile and with cut down CLOS 16:02:15 p_l: that would be «compilable» easily down to native code anywhere. 16:02:38 but who needs cut down CLOS? 16:03:51 stassats: I didn't want to try sticking all the machinery inside 16:04:10 stassats: you can do meaningful (and blazing fast) applications without CLOS. 16:04:35 i can write applications in C, so what? 16:05:08 stassats: I said meaningful (so, terse). C is anything but terse. 16:05:32 o_0 16:06:47 -!- lusory [~bart@bb219-74-218-74.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:06:53 blazing fast CL is nowhere near terse 16:07:08 at least the way i write it 16:07:09 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-76-118-76-200.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:33 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:08:19 -!- symbole` [~user@h-69-3-39-78.nycmny83.static.covad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:20 i'd love to be able to deliver apps on android in lisp, but it seems like a pipedream atm. 16:08:27 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-220-65.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:08:38 stassats: besides declares, what else do you need to make CL blazing fast? CLOS not for sure. Disclaimer: I use CLOS, despite knowing defmethod impacts performance. 16:09:16 -!- p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-atboblbpiahpeoyt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:09:18 Fade: what about clisp? It is bytecode, but quite small- 16:09:36 quack: like writing my own IO routines 16:09:47 the issue isn't the lisp, the issue is that the display/userland/runtime are all in the jvm on the phone. 16:09:51 -!- vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:12 abcl or clojure would be more likely candidates than clisp. 16:10:35 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:47 Have you taken a look at Armed Bear Common Lisp? It is quite standard by now, since 0.2. I have tried it and made me shift from clojure. 16:11:07 ducktrolling 16:11:11 heh 16:16:27 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-76-118-76-200.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:16:34 -!- splittist [~dmurray@163-245.3-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.2.1] 16:16:45 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-76-118-76-200.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:05 schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:18:58 rme [~rme@pool-70-106-137-119.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:04 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:22:28 -!- quack [~fhc@bl15-116-206.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 16:30:08 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0A74D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:31:20 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-49-72.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:31:38 -!- guther [guther@92-55-242-8.net.pbthawe.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:31:44 guther [guther@92-55-242-8.net.pbthawe.eu] has joined #lisp 16:32:38 sentry [~sentry@232.sub-75-222-107.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:55 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.195] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:33:55 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:34:18 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@89.204.137.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:36:21 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:38:09 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA882B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:29 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:39 silenius [~silenus@dslb-088-072-003-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:20 slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B7A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:45 -!- MarcusTullius [~user@242.103.202.62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:46:13 dto1 [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:27 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:46:53 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 16:46:59 benny` [~user@i577A3A32.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:47:23 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 16:47:38 wedgeV [~wedge@cpe90-146-32-187.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 16:47:53 -!- benny [~user@i577A24C6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:48:05 -!- abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:50:50 abeaumont_ [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has joined #lisp 16:53:32 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:54:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:55:07 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:56:08 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:56:16 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:49 ephcon [~ephcon@student164-248.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 17:01:36 but is it a nice shift? 17:02:39 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:02:44 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 17:03:27 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 17:07:24 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:08:11 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:56 -!- krl is now known as mes 17:10:05 -!- mes is now known as krl 17:12:18 b-man_ [~b-man@189.114.193.140.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 17:13:49 jdz [~jdz@host75-111-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:15:33 -!- CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:15:49 Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.88.4] has joined #lisp 17:16:13 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-49-72.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:02 -!- davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:18:36 Phoodus [foo@174-17-246-43.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:59 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21:05 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.254.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:29 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:21:39 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.254.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:18 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:22:33 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:23:03 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.114.193.140.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:23:28 -!- Anarch [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:26:00 cowhm [~cowhm@170.sub-72-109-171.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:12 Anarch [~w3@elrond.hsl.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 17:26:17 #pygame 17:26:41 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:26:52 -!- cowhm [~cowhm@170.sub-72-109-171.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 17:27:55 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:29:47 CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:32:28 b-man_ [~b-man@trindade-e1.n1.linhalivre.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:31 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@trindade-e1.n1.linhalivre.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:33:56 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 17:36:07 b-man_ [~b-man@trindade-e1.n1.linhalivre.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:25 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 17:36:25 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 17:36:25 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 17:36:28 Krystof [~csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:41:18 -!- benny` is now known as benny 17:42:04 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@trindade-e1.n1.linhalivre.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:42:26 b-man_ [~b-man@trindade-e1.n1.linhalivre.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:59 -!- jdz [~jdz@host75-111-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:44:08 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:44:16 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 17:51:04 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 17:55:19 -!- schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:56:23 qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:34 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:58:35 wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d8197c3.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:38 hiho 17:58:46 hello wakeup 17:58:53 Anyone here familiar with cl-who? 17:59:06 Probably several people. 17:59:24 I am trying to generate the list and then want to feed it to who 17:59:47 like on function returns (:table :tr (:td "bla"))) for example 17:59:53 one* 18:00:03 acknopper [~acknopper@5ED303DA.cm-7-4a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 18:00:48 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440354.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 18:01:06 wakeup: that doesn't really work with the evaluation model of cl-who. 18:01:17 damnit 18:01:20 at all? 18:01:21 wakeup: you could have the function do its own with-html-output stuff, though. 18:01:43 but how am supposed to get indenting right then? 18:01:54 How is indenting a problem? 18:02:55 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@2.82.88.4] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 18:03:18 When I do (who (:div (str (return-html-str)))) for example it would get fucked up right? 18:03:35 I don't know. 18:03:50 in my experience it does 18:03:59 Is HTML indentation important to you? (Why?) 18:04:30 As a developer I prefer readable source 18:04:31 -!- bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:04:53 I'd suggest that a html generating toolkit should not add extra spaces at all, ever 18:05:00 wakeup: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/common-lisp/html.txt and http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/common-lisp/html.lisp 18:06:10 I would rather like to buiild a tree out of :symbols and string and then tzransform it to nice html 18:06:14 because 1) spaces in html are sometimes meaningful, and it's hard to get the rules right all the time. and 2) if you really want readable source, either use a browser whose view source can format it for you, or copy and paste to xmllint --format 18:07:47 -!- breach [breach@unaffiliated/breach] has quit [Quit: screen problem, reconnecting.] 18:08:21 its not hard to get the rules right... dont split strings thats ony one rule 18:08:26 only* 18:08:31 wow my typing sucks today 18:08:41 no, that's not the only rule 18:09:23 wakeup: cl-who is not for that kind of strategy 18:09:31 for a simple example, foobar is different than foo 18:09:32 bar 18:09:33 wakeup: cl-who is for when you can put the structure into code in advance. 18:10:02 yaclml might be more to your taste. 18:11:13 foom: if I say string I include whats inside the

    tag of

    Hello world yo

    18:11:17 -!- zophy [~sy@host-242-6-111-24-static.midco.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:22 but 18:11:26 thats gets me thinking 18:12:39 (who (:p "Hello " (:i "world") (:b "yo")))) <- kind of sucks 18:13:16 plus there wouldnt be space between world and yo 18:13:33 the *actual* "simple" rule is that you can add more spaces or newlines wherever there already is one, except if it's in an element with the CSS property of "white-space: {pre,pre-wrap,pre-line}". 18:13:58 (and there's other more complicated rules you can add about where else whitespace is ignored, but that simple one is bad enough, since you need a CSS parser) 18:14:37 hmm 18:15:31 ok so you convinced me that whitespace is tricky, but: nested WHOs still sound ugly to me :/ 18:16:14 -!- legumbre_ is now known as legumbre 18:16:35 wakeup: use scribble notation 18:16:51 (note that my CL scribble thing is different from the PLT scribble thing) 18:17:04 -!- kjbrock [~kevin@64-79-127-126.static.wiline.com] has quit [Quit: kjbrock] 18:17:30 url? 18:19:33 http://www.cliki.net/scribble 18:20:50 tricky topic... 18:21:47 the link to Scribe on this page http://www.cliki.net/scribble 18:21:56 gives me a 403 forbidden 18:22:08 me too 18:22:09 ;) 18:22:25 Skribe is the successor to Scribe 18:22:37 Scribe itself has been obsoleted 18:22:51 even Skribe is unmaintained. 18:23:29 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:23:36 http://www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/fp/Skribe/doc/user-3.html#Syntax-&-Values 18:24:31 so...your suggestion is to use an unmaintained library? 18:24:34 wakeup: if you want a space, put it: (who (:p "Hello " (:i "world") " " (:b "yo"))) 18:24:41 foom: scribble is maintained, by me 18:24:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-243.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:24:58 bit Skribe isnt 18:25:11 it is inspired by a scheme document language, Scribe (followed by Skribe), that isn't maintained. 18:25:12 oh, missed the difference between scribble and scribe. :) 18:25:42 there's not much to maintain about cl-scribble 18:26:23 maybe add trivial "backends" to more underlying lisp syntaxes, when new ones pop up. 18:27:01 I use cl-scribble all the time in my own documents. Including those boston lisp announces. 18:27:18 -!- CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:27:46 BTW, next Boston Lisp Meeting is Monday 20 (next Monday) at NEU, with Hari P on Purely Functional Datastructures for Typed Racket 18:29:26 bobbysmith007 [~russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 18:33:58 -!- weirdo [sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:34:07 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 18:35:35 heaumer_ [~heaumer_@wtf.awesom.eu] has joined #lisp 18:36:13 *Xach* wishes he could make it 18:36:25 weirdo [sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:34 *Xach* will also certainly miss any october meeting that might happen, because of conflicts with ILC 18:37:35 Xach: will you be at ILC? 18:37:35 yay 18:37:49 wanna share a room? 18:38:27 -!- heaumer [~heaumer@ks23738.kimsufi.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:39:13 I've already made arrangements 18:39:16 foom: you can add the spaces and indents within the tags themselves, rather then in the text .... like YACLML does 18:39:20 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:23 Are you looking for a place? 18:39:30 drewc might be in the market for sharing 18:39:34 he's going! 18:40:01 breach [~breach@unaffiliated/breach] has joined #lisp 18:40:29 still not sure actually... i suppose i should get on the details like passports and tickets 18:40:41 drewc: that reminds me of "if (42 == i) { ... }" in the clever-but-weird-looking-at-first cateogry 18:40:44 *drewc* has forgotten about it until, oh, now 18:40:47 drewc: ...not really. That only helps you with the more complicated rules. You still don't know which contexts have white-space css properties on them. 18:40:56 come on, man! 18:41:01 *breach* comes off. 18:41:17 drewc: you still have until friday for the early registration discount. 18:41:28 automated html generation systems really just have no business adding whitespace the user didn't explicitly ask for. 18:41:33 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:33 foom: no, it doesn't matter.. you indent inside the tags ... see the generated source part of http://wiki.alu.org/ 18:41:49 drewc: oh, *inside* the tags 18:41:52 foom: right :) 18:41:57 yea, okay, that's safe. :) 18:42:23 looks odd if you're not used to it, but it's readable 18:43:42 Xach: i always use the 42 == i thing as well actually, because i've been bit too many times :) 18:44:10 hugod [~hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:45:31 *Xach* first saw it in mozilla source 18:45:47 Still, it saves bandwidth to not bother with indenting, so I'd still claim that you're better off not bothering. 18:46:21 no no, the solution to the extra bandwidth is to indent with tabs 18:46:34 8:1 compression! 18:46:45 mrfrgfg 18:47:00 hee hee 18:48:21 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:48:48 hi araujo 18:49:55 -!- HG` [~HG@85.8.91.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:50:07 -!- rpg [~rpg@mpls.sift.info] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:50:58 mob_ [mob@devio.us] has joined #lisp 18:52:01 hmm, does anyone get problems with sbcl and lol code ? 18:52:07 ... 18:52:42 hi breach 18:52:44 :) 18:54:17 clisp runs it without a peep, sbcl mourns about pandoriclet-get and -set to not be defined 18:54:33 I am yet to install a Lisp implementation on OS X 18:54:36 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:54:45 Installed Racket, but that's not a CL 18:54:48 lol code? 18:54:49 I'll test out sbcl 18:55:47 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082A0D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:50 lol.lisp the presumably working version of let over lambda macro pack 18:56:02 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:18 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:56:40 oh 18:56:47 ho. 18:58:05 -!- ska` [~user@109-184-201-184.dynamic.mts-nn.ru] has left #lisp 18:58:48 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B326936.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:01:17 -!- TraumaPony [~TraumaPon@203-206-28-19.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:01:38 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:01:56 Why do I continue to think Americans think "four" is "for" 19:03:25 seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:40 for is short for foray 19:03:52 maybe that's why ?' 19:03:54 lol 19:04:12 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:04:15 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 19:14:36 phf [~user@38.98.248.210] has joined #lisp 19:14:49 PedanticCurmudge [~larry@ip-216-36-87-242.chi.megapath.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:25 -!- PedanticCurmudge [~larry@ip-216-36-87-242.chi.megapath.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:15:43 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:16:00 larry [~larry@ip-216-36-87-242.chi.megapath.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:25 CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 19:19:53 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 19:21:17 antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-97-226.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:19 -!- larry [~larry@ip-216-36-87-242.chi.megapath.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:23:38 -!- mob_ [mob@devio.us] has left #lisp 19:25:13 -!- silenius [~silenus@dslb-088-072-003-199.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:28:42 -!- breach [~breach@unaffiliated/breach] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:28:58 -!- Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.112.53.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:30:09 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7558b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:54 Ginei_Morioka [~irssi_log@78.114.176.176] has joined #lisp 19:32:09 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 19:33:35 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 19:33:38 Hi 19:33:49 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:34:05 hi Sikander 19:34:38 wbooze [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:35:43 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:38:25 xan_ [~xan@46.204.192.61.tokyo.bflets.alpha-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:38:33 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-140-140.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 19:38:40 How is CLOCC regarded here (and I don't mean the Consortium to Lower Obesity in Chicago Children) and is it recommended / avoided? 19:40:06 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-16-183.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:40:37 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 19:40:43 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 19:41:11 isn't that a precursor to asdf-install? 19:41:38 sepp2k [~sexy@p548CDE76.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:16 no, you're thinking of CCLAN :) 19:42:25 ah, yes. :) 19:42:27 It contains mk-defsystem, sure. but also it has PORT, which makes socket access, shell stuff etc portable. 19:42:44 it is poorly regarded 19:42:47 quodlibetor [~user@146.95.31.188] has joined #lisp 19:42:59 if you need portable sockets, use usocket 19:43:09 or iolib 19:43:15 yep 19:43:39 I didn't get the impression that iolib aims to be portable. 19:43:53 Xach: portable to unix? 19:43:57 i don't know 19:44:04 pkhuong: That's something, I guess. 19:44:34 there's non-unix operating systems? In this day and age? 19:44:59 plenty of them 19:45:02 Yeah, there's this fancy OS with colourful stuff. But I think it only runs on phones 19:45:20 like Movitz or Genera 19:45:24 Sikander: iOS? Unix enough for me ;) 19:45:57 Wait, apparently there's a contender for Ubuntu named Windows 7, I believe 19:46:18 Sikander: I'm not interested in some basement-dweller's hobby project. 19:46:20 I think it's totally different, like BSD or so 19:46:24 :D 19:46:27 Xach: depends on what you mean by "portable" :D 19:46:46 ok, iolib or usocket it is then. 19:46:47 "works on everything I care about" 19:47:08 "and if I find something it doesn't work on, I don't care about it anymore." 19:48:18 Wait, how about pipes, or redirection of input/output etc 19:48:21 Sikander what os is it 19:48:43 android, clearly 19:48:53 antivigilante: linux 19:49:02 Oh, you mean the phone os? 19:49:03 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:49:19 Xach: iolib would welcome Windows hackers 19:49:30 I was just kidding; I'm not doing stuff for mobile phones 19:49:35 it's just that there are few system-oriented free software lisp hackers. 19:50:02 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-97-226.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:50:24 so right now, iolib targets unix, but we are not anti-windows. Just windowsless. 19:51:19 http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/215569-bmw-our-hardware-runs-better-without-windows/ 19:51:49 Which library is recommended for a portable way of running (shell) commands and do plumbing between them? 19:52:29 Sikander, soon to be iolib. 19:52:29 -!- quodlibetor [~user@146.95.31.188] has left #lisp 19:52:34 p_l [plasek@gateway/shell/rootnode.net/x-tbfslalsidwrwlsv] has joined #lisp 19:52:55 otherwise, (asdf:run-program "sh -c ...") 19:53:00 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-140-140.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:38 if it's trivial stuff, then xcvb-master might do it for you. 19:53:48 or trivial-shell 19:54:22 Fare: Ok, thanks 19:55:33 -!- seangrove [~user@70-36-236-168.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:55:50 jsrjenkins [~jsrjenkin@ixa148.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:56:34 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-140-140.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:58:53 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@student164-248.hampshire.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:59:40 tell us your experiences 19:59:59 *Fare* is reminded to fix libfixposix's spawn 20:00:23 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-140-201.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:30 -!- wakeup [~wakeup@koln-5d8197c3.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:02:16 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:03:33 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03:44 Hmm, I'm trying to use lisp-unit:assert-numerical-equal in a function, but sbcl complains that Objects of type STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION can't be dumped into fasl files. 20:04:15 -!- skalawag [~user@c75-111-102-202.amrlcmta01.tx.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:39 Sikander: you probably have a spurious #' or macroexpansion-time evaluation of a function. 20:05:29 pkhuong: But... It's not a macro, it's an honest-to-god function I'm writing! 20:05:52 Sikander: can you paste a small test case and the error? 20:06:34 One sec... 20:07:17 -!- john2496 [~john2496@rrcs-72-43-164-66.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:08:23 well, but assert-numerical-equal is a macro, ain't it? 20:08:57 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:34 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@trindade-e1.n1.linhalivre.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:22 stassats: But that means I have to beware of macro-expansion of the macro I'm using inside a function, which sort of defeats the purpose of having macro's "appear as if functions", doesn't it? 20:10:27 pkhuong: http://paste.lisp.org/+2GEL 20:10:53 Sikander: that's a somewhat confused question 20:11:16 stassats: Well, I am somewhat confused 20:11:31 well, you shouldn't use broken macros, that is all 20:11:32 it's all the calls to expand-assert, and expand-assert itself 20:12:14 There's some confusion between a function (#'number-equal), and a form that will evaluate to a function ('#'number-equal) 20:12:34 pkhuong: I see, but I don't understand what I'm doing wrong 20:12:39 john2496 [~john2496@rrcs-72-43-164-66.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:42 nothing 20:12:45 You're not doing anything wrong; lisp-unit is bugged. 20:13:06 pkhuong: whew, I thought I was more confused than normally... 20:13:07 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:13:14 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:13:56 pkhuong: First I thought it had something to do with running it on two complex numbers, which is why I made these lists... 20:14:16 wbooze [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:14:49 pkhuong: Isn't there some irony or so, in a unit test library that contains bugs? 20:14:53 -!- sentry [~sentry@232.sub-75-222-107.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:17:22 Sikander: i have a fix for you, on the condition that you send it up upstream authors 20:19:09 nikodemus: Yes, please 20:20:19 -!- Jasko3 [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:22:39 ericklc [~ikki@189.247.120.252] has joined #lisp 20:22:45 -!- ericklc [~ikki@189.247.120.252] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:23:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/114573#1 20:23:42 nevermind the upstream, already taken care of 20:24:33 nikodemus: Ok, thanks a lot! 20:26:13 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:54 Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-31-251.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 20:29:31 cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-181-202-240.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:07 kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:04 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:47 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:32:47 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-201-1.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:34:52 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 20:34:58 -!- lhz [~shrekz@c-dba672d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:35:26 Sikander: a similar fix must be applied everywhere, including the definition of expand-assert. 20:37:07 -!- bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:37:39 How can I configure slime to have it show the full data in sldb? I don't want it to cut short the strings, pathnames, etc... 20:38:43 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:39:05 pjb: look at the variable in the beginning of swank.lisp 20:39:09 variables 20:39:48 -!- john2496 [~john2496@rrcs-72-43-164-66.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 20:39:56 -!- jsrjenkins [~jsrjenkin@ixa148.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: jsrjenkins] 20:40:01 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-27-82-248-0-143.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:41:00 tcr: iirc SWANK::TO-LINE is responsible for a lot of truncation and has a hardcoded length 20:41:07 -!- phf [~user@38.98.248.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:29 tcr: Thanks. 20:41:29 \o/ memory \o/ 20:44:03 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has quit [Quit: TheEnd2012] 20:44:22 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:48:56 davazp [~user@184.Red-79-154-140.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:25 -!- hugod [~hugod@modemcable086.138-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: hugod] 20:51:32 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:51:41 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:53:29 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-23-82-248-123-71.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:15 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:30 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.54.195] has joined #lisp 20:55:57 pkhuong: I understood that, thanks :) 20:55:59 LiamH: Hi 20:56:14 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-243.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:56:24 LiamH: I pushed some modifications to the FFT tests. On-stride, off-stride all give 0 failures. 20:56:28 Hi Sikander 20:56:36 Sikander: woo-hoo! 20:56:47 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-140-201.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:56:51 LiamH: Not all tests are implemented yet, though. 20:56:58 LiamH: I'm working on the rest. 20:57:07 *LiamH* stops preparing a proposal to pull the newest changes 20:57:11 LiamH: And it's still slow as hell 20:57:18 really? 20:57:40 LiamH: Well, 17 seconds for up to size 20 and stride 3 20:57:54 yeah that's slow 20:58:07 LiamH: For up to size 99 and stride 3, GSL is at least an order of magnitude faster 20:58:39 LiamH: Dammit, I realise that for the last commit, I forgot to comment out the test form. 20:59:04 LiamH: I want to focus now on adding all the tests. After that, I'll have a look at where speed issues lie. 20:59:05 mm... FFT is a linear transform; wouldn't an appropriate random testing of the output probably (literally :) be good enough? 20:59:36 Sikander: I get an error in compiling 20:59:52 LiamH: Oops, you need a fix for lisp-unit 21:00:16 LiamH: See nikodemus' paste: http://paste.lisp.org/display/114573#1 21:00:54 homie [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:19 wbooze [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:21 LiamH: The macro is defined in floating-point.lisp in lisp-unit 21:01:40 pkhuong: Yes, that's correct 21:02:17 pkhuong: GSL has a set of tests with random noise. We're "translating" these to GSLL 21:02:18 -!- Blkt [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-31-251.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:20 Arelius [d0507552@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.80.117.82] has joined #lisp 21:02:49 Sikander: right, but also when checking the output vector, couldn't you only read a couple indices? 21:03:11 -!- Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:03:16 using clbuild to install swank and slime. I am getting a version mismatch, any idea why this may be? 21:03:28 pkhuong: Theoretically, yes. But GSL checks the infinity norm, and GSLL sticks to doing the same as GSL 21:03:40 Sikander: so we need an extra quote before #'numerical-equal? That looks... wrong. 21:03:47 k. 21:03:54 Arelius: you use swank or slime from a different place 21:04:01 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:08 LiamH: not in a macro; you don't want a function, you want a form that evaluates to a function. 21:04:25 Figured it out 21:04:29 would 'numerical-equal work as well then? 21:04:36 "function designator" 21:04:45 LiamH: you'd want ''numerical-equal. 21:04:55 Otherwise you'll expand into (funcall numerical-equal ...) 21:05:13 pkhuong: OK 21:05:28 are you sure that that is the case? 21:05:30 LiamH: By the way, I did the off-stride checking in another way; I #+nil'ed your function (sorry) 21:06:51 FAST-FOURIER-TRANSFORM: 4380 assertions passed, 0 failed. Evaluation took: 7.461 seconds of real time 21:06:59 That is not bad! 21:07:14 It's still slow, but not as slow as before. 21:07:15 LiamH: Dammit, I have a slow computer... 21:07:32 On the other hand, it's already quite old 21:07:45 francogrex [~user@109.130.114.170] has joined #lisp 21:07:48 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:07:53 LiamH: Well, we're getting there! 21:08:23 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:08:44 LiamH: Shall I leave the test form uncommented then? 21:09:02 Hmmm, (all-fft-test-forms 20 3) does 4380 tests? 21:09:15 That seems like a lot. 21:09:42 LiamH: That's because off-stride elements are tested element-wise (like in GSL). 21:10:04 LiamH: I could use your function, then construct a vector of the expected values, and test that. 21:10:06 Sikander: really? 21:10:07 If you prefer 21:10:30 Well, almost :) 21:11:03 I think I prefer to count as one test the output from one FFT. 21:11:07 LiamH: Ok, actually, the off-stride test is one test function. 21:11:32 So you're actually counting each element of a say 20-element vector as the result of a separate test? 21:11:36 LiamH: Ok, then I first need to construct a vector, and compare that one. More difficult than a simple loop. 21:12:16 You know, you can still loop, inside a function that returns t or nil. Then just use lisp-unit:assert-true. 21:12:17 LiamH: Have a look at fast-fourier-transform.lisp, mostly the function fft-complex-off-stride-check 21:12:49 LiamH: Ah, I used lisp-unit:assert-numerical-equal on the elements. 21:13:07 LiamH: Hey, it's my first use of lisp-unit! I don't know squat! 21:14:00 There's a lower-level function that can be called I think that will just return t or nil, and not officially register a test. 21:14:03 LiamH: Ok, then it's easily fixed 21:14:19 LiamH: Yeah, probably numerical-equal 21:14:26 I'm not sure though, tmh would know but he's not here. 21:14:42 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 21:15:02 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:15:03 LiamH: Ok, don't worry. Let me mess around a bit and I'll push the changes again. At least it passes all tests now, right? :D 21:15:20 OK, so I retract my "not bad" comment pending revision of the tests :-) 21:15:37 but of course it's good they pass 21:16:14 My first reaction was "4380 tests... wow, he must be doing size 1...99 and then some" 21:16:45 LiamH: Hahah! Right 21:17:15 LiamH: That would be _blazing_ fast, I guess! 21:17:27 oh yeah 21:17:37 LiamH: Wow, I just changed it to use lisp-unit:assert-true 21:17:39 but still slow compared to GSL 21:17:52 LiamH: Time goes from 17 seconds (on my computer) to 35 seconds! 21:18:05 ugh 21:18:08 LiamH: 840 assertions 21:18:32 fewer assertions = slower? 21:19:21 LiamH: Just pushed it. 21:19:25 LiamH: This is what I changed: 21:19:46 LiamH: lisp-unit:assert-numerical-equal -> lisp-unit:numerical-equal 21:19:54 LiamH: And then use lisp-unit:assert-true 21:20:06 LiamH: on the function that returns the result of the loop 21:20:55 FAST-FOURIER-TRANSFORM: 840 assertions passed, 0 failed. 21:20:56 Evaluation took: 21:20:56 13.852 seconds of real time 21:20:57 LiamH: Fewer assertions, but same number of cases 21:21:02 Yes, twice as long! 21:21:16 I can't explain that 21:21:17 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-070.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 21:21:34 LiamH: I guess lisp-unit has a speed issue? 21:21:57 I'd say. I wish I knew how to use a profiler. 21:22:48 LiamH: I think I have it somewhere, how to use it. When I have some time, I'll experiment with that, and see why it's so slow 21:23:05 If we rename the test to SLOW-FOURIER-TRANSFORM would that at least be more truthful? 21:23:23 :D 21:23:58 IN-FOURIERTING-TRANSFORM? 21:24:02 Actually, it's a SLOW-FAST-FOURIER-TRANSFORM 21:24:44 At least, regarding the tests, we're on the right track, I guess. The speed issue is something else. 21:24:58 SLOWER-THAN-A-SPEEDING-BUTTERFLY-TRANSFORM 21:25:53 LiamH: Ok, that's my contribution for today. Next, I'll either have a look at profiling, or work on the rest of the FFT tests. 21:25:55 "When your DFT is just too fast, slow it down with our specially crafted ultra-slow algorithm!" 21:26:09 Sikander: OK, thanks. 21:26:18 I remember there was something I had to do about trivial-backtrace not found for hunchentoot in sbcl. Anyone remember what that was? 21:26:26 Sikander: should I check in the lisp-unit change? 21:26:28 LiamH: Now with extra slowness, by not using fftw or cuda? 21:26:36 Arelius: install it? 21:26:37 Arelius: download and load trivial-backtrace? 21:26:44 LiamH: are you maintaining lisp-unit? 21:27:02 LiamH: or (apparently) have push permissions? 21:27:12 Sikander: I have push privs, tmh is really the maintainer. 21:27:35 Hmm, it had a problem installing previouslly 21:27:39 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:28:29 LiamH: I think you should. elliptic-functions is the only other test that uses that function, and it doesn't break it. 21:28:51 LiamH: Or wait. Maybe you should have tmh look at it to be sure 21:28:51 SIkander: OK, I will. 21:29:13 How about simultaneous, I push it and alert tmh? 21:29:17 LiamH: The fft tests doesn't use assert-numerical-equal any more, so it shouldn't break. 21:29:33 Ah, maybe leave well enough alone then. 21:29:40 LiamH: That should be fine. Btw, nikodemus said he e-mailed the maintainers about it. 21:30:16 Sikander: not sure who he considers a maintainer. 21:30:27 *Sikander* shrugs. 21:30:35 -!- francogrex [~user@109.130.114.170] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:30:49 andrewks [~aks@173-230-180-130.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:51 But I guess it's more correct to have the double quote than the single. 21:30:53 LiamH: Ok, I just tested it. With the original lisp-unit, both elliptic-functions and fast-fourier-transform tests are fine. 21:31:14 LiamH: So you can either push it and alert tmh, or just alert tmh. Your call 21:31:17 Jabberwockey [~Jens@89.204.137.221] has joined #lisp 21:31:39 yeah, I'll do one of those 21:31:43 :D 21:31:58 hmmmm, corporate logics... 21:32:17 It depends on how sure you are about the fix. 21:32:21 do you think that a small group is able to change direction ? 21:33:05 LiamH: Anyway, until next time. I'm going to bed. 21:33:19 good night 21:33:26 Goodnight everyone 21:33:33 and thanks for the help 21:33:39 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: Time to sleep...] 21:33:42 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:36:07 -!- dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:36:40 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-163-163.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:37:26 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-46-10.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:40:22 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:21 -!- CrazyEddy [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:52:45 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:53:44 -!- sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA882B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:53:50 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 21:56:37 yCrazyEdd [~ovariotub@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:57:34 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:00 -!- yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy 21:59:08 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:59:35 -!- Arelius [d0507552@gateway/web/freenode/ip.208.80.117.82] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:00:08 -!- ikki [~ikki@189.247.120.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:03:40 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:09 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:11:34 -!- cvandusen [~user@68-90-30-246.ded.swbell.net] has quit [Quit: quit] 22:11:50 -!- nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-3-61.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:11:55 nowhereman [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-3-61.w92-141.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:12:36 Does anyone recommend any resources for learning how to effectively make type hierarchies and such? More specifically, I want to have types which are parameterizable (for instance, a type like (Matrix ), where might be Integer, and this entire matrix type might be a subtype of AdditiveGroup). I am not concerned about the types being static. 22:12:37 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279440354.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:13:08 smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:26 Quadrescence, for type theory in general, there was a great course by Benjamin Werner online. 22:13:50 Fare: "in general" meaning unrelated to lisp? 22:14:12 yes. 22:14:20 (maybe I misunderstood your question) 22:14:25 Oh, I have a few good books on type theory. 22:15:12 I am just wondering if any good facilities already exist in CL; I vaguely recall someone saying there are good things 22:15:12 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 22:15:57 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2B40.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:16:39 I'm just not sure if I'll have to roll out my own kind of thing. I am only concerned about the construction of types, defining functions on them, etc; I suspect CLOS would be what I need to delve into 22:17:04 what do you mean "functions on types" ? 22:17:13 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:18:59 ..generic functions? 22:20:22 kleppari: Yeah 22:21:17 maybe you're looking for my "interface passing style" http://fare.livejournal.com/155094.html 22:21:20 *sykopomp* made a dent in his lack of understanding of interface passing style today. 22:21:44 heh. 22:21:44 sykopomp, jiinx. What was that dent? 22:22:23 Fare: correct me if I'm wrong, but IPS is an effective way of resolving the issues with stuff like "how the hell do I dispatch on an alist?" 22:22:41 yes - and more 22:22:43 (and of course, separating code from representation _even more_) 22:23:12 it's decoupling the data from the metadata, if you want. 22:23:27 Fare: I still feel a bit strange about the part where you need to be passing this object around with everything you call. 22:23:32 and separating me from understanding it 22:23:36 interfaces, etc. - are the metadata. They tell you how the data is encoded. 22:23:49 and the fact that they're all just singletons seems iffy, too. 22:23:56 the data is raw data is whichever format is most space/speed/humanspeed efficient 22:24:03 *stassats* can't keep all those passings in his head 22:24:24 Fare: it made a lot more sense when I started thinking about how things like character encodings work. 22:24:55 stassats, if you use Haskell type classes, ML modules, Racket units, or Scala whatever, it'll be done automatically for you 22:24:56 there's no magical class you can call on random data from a stream. You just say "I'm going to treat it like X. Damn the torpedoes." 22:25:07 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@89.204.137.221] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:25:12 sykopomp, exactly! 22:25:29 Fare: I'd be interested in seeing how the process can effectively be automated in CL, too. 22:25:38 Fare: i don't understand neither of these! 22:26:01 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:26:19 sykopomp, you could add a bunch of macros that do the job for you, but it will be ugly. 22:26:20 Fare: So if I understand this correctly, this is essentially like Haskell type classes, except more general, but as a result of being dynamic, requires explicit passing of some object? 22:26:26 Fare: How would you compare the strategy of IPS to the way the CLOS MOP has things like do-foo-using-class? Is it the same thing? 22:26:30 Quadrescence, bingo 22:26:35 *stassats* is drowning in abstractions 22:26:46 Fare: and what do languages like Haskell do that they can magically hide away the type class? 22:27:05 sykopomp: It'll all inferred at compile time 22:27:07 sykopomp, yes it's similar to SVUC and such, except that the class isn't extracted from the object representation, but given aside it. 22:27:29 sykopomp: at the cost of being limited in capability 22:27:30 sykopomp, they do all type class computations statically at compile-time 22:27:32 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-093-070.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:27:34 Fare: SVUC, by itself, doesn't do the extracting. 22:27:35 but right 22:27:47 that makes sense (in re computing it statically) 22:28:13 arbscht [~arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 22:28:18 *stassats* can't figure how to send qt a **void, damn 22:28:18 what capabilities do they lose by resolving this at compile time? 22:28:26 sykopomp, yes, SVUC itself doesn't extract the class from the object, and definitely is a little bit of IPS in CLOS. 22:28:33 sykopomp: dynamic types (types that depend on values) 22:29:06 Quadrescence: such as "integer between 1 and 10"? 22:29:06 sykopomp, they can have only one class (analog to interface in IPS) per datatype. 22:29:32 sykopomp: Sure, or (IntegerMatrix ) 22:29:32 Fare: Ah right. You can multi-dispatch IPS. 22:30:10 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:30:27 you can multi-dispatch IPS, but you can also multi-dispatch Haskell type classes. It's a different issue here. 22:30:46 Fare: what do you mean by only one class, then? 22:31:35 if I call (foo bar) in Haskell, and foo is generic, the class with which bar will be used is computed statically from bar's type. 22:31:58 there's only one answer returned by the class resolution algorithm. 22:32:31 in IPS, you'd call (foo bar-if bar) - and there could be a valid (foo bar2-if bar) and other variants. 22:33:04 see for instance how I implement "pure hash tables" on top of "pure trees" and "pure alists". 22:33:23 have a tree of one alist per bucket. 22:33:29 I've been going back and reading through that code now and then, trying to process what it all means. 22:33:46 well, the very same object can be seen as a tree or as a hash-table. 22:33:55 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:34:02 I'm somewhere between "double rainbow" and "oh, okay" at this point. 22:34:36 Fare: by -if, do you mean 'interface'? 22:35:07 so I can (lookup bar bucket-key) or (lookup bar object) and have different answers 22:35:40 sykopomp, yes, I meant interface - though in fare-utils I use the convention. 22:35:41 -!- freiksenet [~freiksene@cs181144155.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:35:47 sorry 22:35:56 just checking :) 22:36:42 at what point do you check that a particular type of object fulfills the interface for ? 22:37:35 as in, when do you find out that (lookup x key) would fail if x represents an integer (and there's no implementations that handle integers yet)? 22:37:49 whenever you like. Usually I do incremental checking at every small operation, and I'd do complete checking at "module" boundaries. 22:38:04 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:14 to do it in a principled way, you'd have to see how Racket enforces contracts. 22:38:54 I guess that's really no different than in most other cases where you want to make sure you get the right type of object. 22:38:54 sykopomp, that would fail if your specific interface doesn't use integers as representation. 22:39:15 Fare: Any specific file I should look at? 22:39:27 I have your fare-utils git up 22:39:28 since you're explicitly passing interfaces around, you both can do whatever the hell you want, and have the responsibility of having it work. 22:39:35 Quadrescence: look in the pure directory. 22:39:39 plenty of goodies there. 22:39:48 Quadrescence, see for instance pure/hash-table.lisp 22:41:15 Fare: thanks for the chat. I think I'll try this next time I get a chance. 22:41:50 I think I get it just enough to write something that uses it... 22:42:23 sure. 22:45:15 Fare: You should spoonfeed me on what's going on. 22:45:35 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46:36 rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:00 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 22:49:00 Fare: An interface for some "type" T is a with the properties/functions T supports? 22:50:03 more or less. 22:50:44 in this case, this interface indeed is meant to be used with some "type" of objects that represent hash-tables 22:51:15 you do well to put "type" in quotes, since it doesn't necessarily correspond to a lisp type. 22:58:20 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 sepp2k_ [~sexy@p548CD719.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:08 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:53 -!- sepp2k [~sexy@p548CDE76.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:04:22 -!- kjbrock [~kevin@173-11-106-193-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: kjbrock] 23:04:37 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-223-231.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:05:48 -!- milanj [~milanj_@79-101-170-143.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:09:00 hah, /me comes up how to fix the bug in commonqt while trying to fall asleep 23:09:21 it only took a week to figure it out 23:16:31 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:19:12 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:22:05 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-101-114.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:22:05 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-101-114.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:23:28 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.160.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:24:19 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:24:25 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-213-168-64-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:25:48 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p4FF0B7A0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:25:53 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:26:11 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:29:07 abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:18 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-233-194-239.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 23:33:29 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:36:26 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 23:37:28 ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-233-194-239.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:32 -!- HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:44:58 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:32 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.2/20100316055951]] 23:50:10 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@erlang.pnet.com.pl] has quit [Quit: zZzZzZz] 23:50:42 -!- apot [~abg3x@unaffiliated/apot] has left #lisp 23:52:36 m7d [~lriley@pool-71-102-237-143.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:30 -!- abugosh [~Adium@pool-108-15-19-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:55:17 *Xach* hasn't been able to get commonqt to build 23:56:33 i don't think the one at lichtblau's site is actually usable, i've run into many issues with it 23:56:43 though i didn't send my fixes upstream yet 23:57:21 lichtblau's site => his gitorious repo? 23:57:47 whatever repo is linked from common-lisp.net 23:57:52 ok 23:58:26 m7d_ [~lriley@pool-71-102-237-143.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:40 *stassats* is now able to work on his application, not on commonqt 23:59:44 to find new bugs