00:01:59 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:07:25 -!- rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:14:36 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:38 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:07 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:34 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:28:22 -!- srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29:26 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:30:35 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 00:31:27 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 00:34:45 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.57.112] has joined #lisp 00:34:58 aceluck [~aceluck@175.137.79.23] has joined #lisp 00:38:43 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:40:20 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:21 Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 00:41:07 -!- BladeRunners [~bladerunn@24-107-123-168.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:43:48 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 00:45:33 BladeRunner [~bladerunn@24-107-123-168.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:08 -!- Yuuhi` [benni@p5483D0B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:52:58 The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:23 neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has joined #lisp 00:59:37 Ralith [~ralith@S010600221561996a.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:48 uh, so iolib now depends on some libfixposix.. where can I get that 01:09:22 adeht: fe[nl]ix wrote a bit about it on the mailing list 01:10:05 thanks 01:10:28 adeht: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/iolib-devel/2010-September/000440.html 01:13:34 hmm, autoconf gives errors about "possibly undefined" macros 01:13:47 -!- dose [~dose@offyourtrol.li] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:13:53 yet it generates a configure script (and leaves some cache dir) 01:14:55 -!- sdsds is now known as KoF 01:15:01 adeht: I'd like to see those warnings 01:15:56 -!- KoF is now known as sdsds 01:16:29 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:16:47 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-117-51.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:16:56 fe[nl]ix: http://paste.lisp.org/display/114407 01:17:18 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:18:50 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:18:54 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-8-126.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 01:20:36 adeht: check that you have all the automake&libtool devel packages, then run "autoreconf" 01:21:28 core/automake 1.11.1-1 (base-devel) [installed] , core/libtool 2.2.10-3 (base-devel) [installed] 01:23:27 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-116-166.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 01:26:34 so, does autoreconf work ? 01:26:40 no 01:29:04 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:29:13 try autoreconf -i 01:30:05 ok that seems to have worked.. 01:32:18 nice 01:32:22 I'm going to sleep, then :) 01:32:58 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:37 heh, iolib/cffi can't seem to find the shared object (after make install and ldconfig).. suppose I'll hunt for some cffi variable.. good night 01:34:15 -!- Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-14-90.w92-133.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 01:34:45 argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.74.66] has joined #lisp 01:35:36 there we go. don't we love non-lisp deps 01:36:48 -!- yrgd [~yrgd@c-98-235-44-106.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:39:32 number9 [~user@c-71-192-98-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:36 -!- argiopeweb [~elliot@184.91.74.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:48:31 ... We don't even love lisp deps. 01:55:44 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:56:32 only problem is getting the right version of the deps 01:56:35 otherwise i dont mind... 01:57:04 -!- Blkt [~user@net-93-146-149-37.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59:09 *Xach* loves Lisp deps 01:59:26 -!- xinming [~hyy@122.238.78.150] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:59:55 xinming [~hyy@115.221.1.215] has joined #lisp 02:03:35 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 02:16:46 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-109-134-127.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 02:18:42 ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has joined #lisp 02:20:58 symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:35 -!- number9 [~user@c-71-192-98-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:33:47 jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has joined #lisp 02:34:34 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 02:35:35 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:35:46 Hmm. Trying to complete #\a is probably not a good idea. 02:37:52 However, there's only one that starts with #\a, since unicode character names are uppercase... 02:38:06 *pjb* likes case sensitivity! 02:39:13 Heh. Except "a" is not the Unicode name of any character. 02:39:36 Yes. 02:39:48 That would be latin small letter a. 02:40:57 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@fredri.cc] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:41:16 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f756358.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:41:29 This unicode name completion code I have is pretty rather broken. It needs lots of work. 02:43:48 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:44:27 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 02:44:37 -!- jsfb [~jon@unaffiliated/jsfb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:44:53 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 02:55:20 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:29 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:56:48 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:57:08 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:58:46 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 03:01:54 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.59.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:37 dose [~dose@offyourtrol.li] has joined #lisp 03:16:04 sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@c-76-118-76-200.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:47 Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:25:48 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:26 -!- dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [Quit: dreish] 03:33:32 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:33:57 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:34:39 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:35:08 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:43:38 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:50:17 -!- sabalaba__ [~sabalaba@c-76-118-76-200.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:53:05 azathoth99 [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:23 beach did you write an essay about the performance v perfectionist mindset? 03:55:54 -!- reds [~chatzilla@pool-74-101-147-57.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:06:35 -!- azathoth99 [~g@pool-173-60-208-79.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 04:07:34 Xantoz [~hejhej@c83-251-227-152.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:09:14 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:14:40 Good morning everyone! 04:15:53 minion: memo for azathoth99: Yes, I did write that essay. 04:15:53 Remembered. I'll tell azathoth99 when he/she/it next speaks. 04:23:07 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:28:27 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pdgkcabguynyofys] has joined #lisp 04:30:59 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.156.18.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 04:58:13 -!- zeroish [~zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:02:41 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@187.58.93.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:03:00 dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:08 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@65.183.103.190] has left #lisp 05:15:57 huangjs [~user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:16:15 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:22:08 hohoho [~hohoho@p67f6db.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:34:22 hmm. Is there a way to change eol style in SBCL? I remember it can't be done now. Do I have to use flexi-stream to read files with DOS-style line terminating? 05:36:52 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:46:56 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.156.18.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 05:47:35 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:30 -!- dralston [~dralston@S010600212986cca8.va.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:51:39 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 05:52:59 -!- tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:30 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: good night everyone] 05:56:10 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 05:56:57 Good morning everyone! 05:57:09 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 05:57:44 -!- smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:58:46 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-9296.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 06:04:19 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@84.76.48.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:05:14 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 06:07:56 timor [~timor@port-92-195-199-37.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:11:01 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-199-37.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:17:16 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-17-246-43.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:19:03 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-127-82.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 06:21:55 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:22:20 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:24:18 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 06:27:04 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:30:48 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 06:40:22 gko [~gko@114-137-3-27.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:50 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:41:01 good morning 06:41:43 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.156.18.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 06:45:09 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 06:46:42 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.3.254] has joined #lisp 06:47:38 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.57.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:47:53 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:48:40 Subhro [~bsdboy@ggn.ixigo.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:47 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:49:56 -!- Subhro [~bsdboy@ggn.ixigo.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:50:04 hello mvilleneuve 06:50:19 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 06:56:10 ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:49 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 07:03:05 ohih0wru [~andrei@78.84.163.138] has joined #lisp 07:03:24 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:04:19 -!- kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:04:32 psilord1 [~psilord@76.201.144.111] has joined #lisp 07:04:39 Beetny [~Beetny@58.145.143.62] has joined #lisp 07:05:18 beach: you around? 07:05:45 cl-couch, clouchdb, something else? or am i better off learning elephant? this will most likely be for persisting some form of web content, and i'm looking to familiarize myself with some new (to me) technologies 07:06:17 kleppari [~spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 07:06:31 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Client Quit] 07:06:38 jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has joined #lisp 07:07:55 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 07:10:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-203-193.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:10:49 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 07:11:37 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-203-193.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:07 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.137.79.23] has left #lisp 07:12:42 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:13:58 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@58.145.143.62] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:14:36 Beetny [~Beetny@58.145.143.62] has joined #lisp 07:17:42 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 07:17:44 aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:18:28 psilord1: I am yes. 07:18:48 dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:48 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@c-67-180-50-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:18:48 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 07:19:07 and rucksack, it looks interesting ... 07:21:36 spiaggia: I'm making progress on what we talked about. So far I can load a very small subset of lisp and have it be fully annotated. I need to figure out exactly how to deal with backquote, unquote, and unquote-splice from a mundane point of view. 07:22:41 psilord1: Great! 07:22:42 spiaggia: Once I get that done, then I can write the macro expander and code serializer. So far, my annotations can tell the difference between the same symbol from different lexical locations, even though they are the same symbol and the lisp implementation can't tell them apart. 07:23:02 psilord1: Sure, that part is not hard. 07:23:28 psilord1: The reader can keep track of source location of course. 07:24:12 spiaggia: Yup. But when a s-exp goes through a macro expander and different portions are picked from the original s-expr or from the s-exp which is part of the macro, that's where it gets interesting. 07:24:54 psilord1: Indeed. I have a proof-of-concept implementation that tracks symbols. 07:25:24 insomnia1alt [~milan@port-92-204-4-218.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:25:47 psilord1: This is what I do: When the macroexpander has done its job, I first look for conses that are eq in the new and the old form. I am sure those came from the original form. 07:26:38 psilord1: I then substitute atoms for those conses in the original form, and macroexpand again. If I don't get an error, it is likely that they weren't inspected by the macroexpander. 07:27:17 Hopefully, as will I. :) I can even track a number read from a source location as it moves from s-expr to s-expr. And new numbers created by something like (+ 1 2) have the location of the + as their creation point (wherever the + may have come from). 07:27:20 psilord1: Next I look for atoms in the expanded form that appeared in the original form, except for those conses that I am pretty sure weren't inspected. 07:28:11 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:28:20 nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:28 spiaggia: It seems you are doing a tree-diff algorithm. I have some papers on those, but I'll probably have to read up on them in more detail. 07:28:39 -!- pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:28:42 pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has joined #lisp 07:28:42 -!- pr [phil@komodo.contextshift.eu] has quit [Changing host] 07:28:42 pr [phil@unaffiliated/pr] has joined #lisp 07:29:03 psilord1: I only look at numbers, characters, and symbols. I then substitute other randomly choses atoms of the same type in the original form and macroexpand again. If they show up in the expanded form, I am pretty sure they cam from the original form. 07:29:20 psilord1: It is not enough to do a tree diff. 07:29:24 -!- insomniaSalt [~milan@port-92-204-85-58.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:29:24 -!- insomnia1alt is now known as insomniaSalt 07:29:42 spiaggia: Yeah, because the s-expr can be a graph or other structure. 07:30:01 -!- MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:30:25 psilord1: How can you track a number that moves? 07:30:30 -!- DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:30:45 DrForr [~drforr@pool-173-58-135-135.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:13 spiaggia: I'm not saying it is efficient.... But I make the number a full fledged object in the lisp system. 07:31:32 psilord1: You can't do that, because that will break macroexpanders. 07:31:47 spiaggia: How? 07:32:21 spiaggia: I thought it was valid to implement numbers that way since numbers can't be eq to each other for, I presume, this very reason. 07:34:25 MetalDust [~metaldust@75-32-203-61.lightspeed.ftwotx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:27 psilord1: (defmacro ff (a b) `(* ,(1- a) ,(1+ b))) 07:34:35 psilord1: Then (ff 4 5) 07:35:23 psilord1: Try substituting something other than a number for 4 or 5. 07:35:32 trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:35:43 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 07:35:46 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:35:59 Let's see if I can explain what my annotator will do in the above situation. 07:36:44 I am all ears. 07:37:17 spiaggia: The sexpr upon entering ff will contain 4 and 5 known from the source line which contained '(ff 4 5)'. 07:37:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:37:46 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.156.18.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:38:08 spiaggia: The macro expander would know that a is bound to 4 and b is bound to 5, hence that information is available to me in debugging ff. 07:38:10 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C4E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:27 Debugging ff? What do you mean? 07:38:49 spiaggia: I mean you set a breakpoint at the macro expansion and step through the execution of it. 07:39:01 psilord1: Why would you do that? 07:39:36 spiaggia: Both to see if a macro (and associated functions) are doing what you expect, and to test macro expansion codes. :) 07:40:18 psilord1: I don't get it. Assume ff is a macro that was written after you finished and distributed your compiler, by someone else. 07:40:22 spiaggia: In the case of jut letting it happen, what will occur is (1- a) will be evaluated, and 3 produce and marked as having been generated at the lexical location of 1- in the macro source. 07:41:04 psilord1: I thought you said that you replaced numbers such as 4 and 5 with other kinds of objects. Did I misunderstand? 07:41:38 "I make the number a full fledged object in the lisp system" 07:41:58 spiaggia: Possibly. What I meant, in detail, is that in the c++ implementation of my compiler I have a "class Obj" which is typed to be a SYMBOL, STRING, CONS, NUMBER. 07:42:27 psilord1: I am not interested in what you do in c++, only in how you solve the problem in Lisp. 07:42:44 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:42:56 psilord1: So are 4 and 5 numbers in my example above, or instances of some other class? 07:43:13 spiaggia: wrt lisp, they are simply lisp numbers. 07:43:36 psilord1: So what did you mean when you said "I make the number a full fledged object in the lisp system"? 07:44:27 spiaggia: I meant "the lisp system" as being the compiler codes itself, and "full fldged object" as being an object instance which knows it is an integer. 07:44:32 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:44:49 spiaggia: I do believe I stumbled onto some terminology that has a direct meaning, but I didn't know that and am using it otherwise. 07:45:56 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.156.18.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 07:45:56 spiaggia: but the Objects I'm talking about are the internal representations the compiler has about the datums and cons cells in the sexprs. 07:46:18 psilord1: So in other words, "I make the number a full fledged object in the lisp system" just means, "I don't do anything particular". 07:46:42 psilord1: OK, so how do you represent the information about the number 4? 07:46:56 spiaggia: That could be true, depending upon implementation choices. For example, a number could be a tagged 32-bit quantity, or a member of a struct. 07:47:52 psilord1: What do you mean by "a number could be ... a member of a struct"? 07:47:57 spiaggia: http://paste.lisp.org/display/114414 07:48:18 That's what I mean. :) 07:48:38 psilord1: I know there is no problem in a language that doesn't specify how code is represented. I am interested in how you manage this in Lisp. 07:50:09 spiaggia: I don't think I understand what you are asking. 07:50:48 psilord1: OK, let's do this again for the nth time. When a number has been read from source code, do you represent it as a number or as something else? 07:51:12 psilord1: And I am not talking C++ here. Lisp only. 07:51:20 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-26-49.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:51:38 spiaggia: It is a true number from the point of view of lisp. The lisp environment can't ask anything about the number beyond the ANSI spec. 07:52:01 it can either be represented just like a variable that happens to be at a pre-initialized, immutable place in memory, or it can be directly inserted in the refering instructions 07:52:48 don't know which level you are talking about, though 07:52:55 psilord1: So now if you have a macro (defmacro ff (a) `(* 4 ,(1+ a))) and call it macroexpand the form (ff 4), you will get (* 4 5). How do you know that the 4 didn't come from the initial form? 07:53:59 daniel: psilord1 claims to be able to track atoms such as symbols and numbers across macroexpansion, but he hasn't been able to convince me. 07:54:28 spiaggia: Well, I can't convince you because IRC sucks. This is why I'm writing my proof of concept. :) 07:55:07 psilord1: So what did you now like with the method I suggested earlier. 07:55:13 s/./?/ 07:55:21 s/now/not/ 07:56:06 spiaggia: There is nothing I didn't like about it. I need to think it over to really understand it. 07:56:24 psilord1: First, you need to realize what the problem is. 07:57:10 Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 07:57:28 spiaggia: well, one could theoretically track them in a separate log... 07:57:31 spiaggia: Well, the problem, as I see it, is if I have a problem in my running code, what's the most unsurprising manner that I would want to debug it in the most useful way possible. :) Everything else is just the stuff that gets in the way towards implementing it. 07:57:41 p_l: Explain please! 07:58:10 spiaggia: Let me write up a thingy and paste it so you can see what I mean. 07:58:18 spiaggia: a log/journal describing all operations done on the AST, so you can rewind it to recreate the AST at any point in time 07:58:20 psilord1: But not in C++, please. 07:58:40 p_l: And how do you make a macroexpander generate that log? 07:58:42 No, it'll just be in english. 07:58:54 psilord1: Please do it in Lisp. 07:59:44 spiaggia: make all transforms (including the macroexpander's) write to it. The exact form I don't yet have any idea about, but it's doable for the price of memory 07:59:47 spiaggia: I don't think you understand, I can't do it in lisp, lisp doesn't understand the annotation dimensions. It has to be an environment like a debugger which inspects the information. 08:00:17 p_l: So you are altering the Lisp language so as to force writers of macroexpanders to add logging informaation? 08:00:24 The debugger can be in lisp, sure, but once it is, the the lisp is an extended one which implements new language features. 08:01:06 psilord1: So we are not discussing implementing a compiler for Lisp? 08:01:29 spiaggia: we are, because it is the compiler which produces the annotation information, but only the debugger has access to it. 08:01:53 psilord1: So how do you track that annotation information across macroexpansions? 08:02:05 spiaggia: Lemme write my document. :) 08:02:22 psilord1: I have the impression I am not going to learn anything new. 08:02:34 spiaggia: then I'll just finish my proof of concept. 08:02:40 david` [~user@88-163.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:02:44 That's better, yes. 08:02:47 spiaggia: either it works, or it doesn't. 08:03:00 That sounds correct. 08:03:27 p_l: You didn't answer my question. 08:04:22 spiaggia: it might take a some weeks, since I only can work on it here and there, but so far I'm making progress. Hopefullly in th near future, we'll come to a resolution. 08:04:40 psilord1: Sure, take your time. 08:06:17 spiaggia: excuse me, I seem to have jumped into discussion missing some stuff, but I assumed that the modification would only be done to implementation, not the language 08:07:34 p_l: The problem is that if your compiler manipulates ASTs that are more complex than just Lisp S-expressions, then you break macroexpanders, if if your compiler doesn't manipulate such ASTs you cannot now the origin of an atom in macroexpanded code. 08:07:53 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:08:28 s/now/know/ 08:08:56 p_l: I assert tht you can extend an AST in a manner that a macro expander is blind to, but encodes the origins of the atoms. spiaggia doesn't believe me, and I continue to fail to explain my position. Hence, I'm writing a proof of concept compiler which does it. 08:09:13 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.156.18.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:09:15 Or, I find out, it doesn't do it, and never will. :) 08:10:05 but it is 3am here, and I probably should go to sleep. Later all! 08:10:06 *p_l* was thinking of modification that was transparent to user-written macroexpanders. 08:11:21 You could probably use a more complex data type than CONS cell tree but export it with a compatible interface, with all operation traced... 08:11:30 anyway, complex and slightly crazy 08:12:16 p_l: You would have to solve the halting problem to do that. 08:12:55 Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:13:04 p_l: (defmacro ff (a) `,(if (= (ackermann 3 4) 27) a 4)) 08:13:38 p_l: In the expansion of (ff 4), did the 4 come from the original form or from the macroexpander? 08:18:17 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 08:18:17 p_l: psilord1 (as I understand it) suggested representing code as more complex, annotated ASTS, which would work for the macro above, but not for this one: (defmacro ff (a b) `(* ,(1+ a) (1- b))) because it assumes that if you type (ff 3 4) then 3 and 4 are Lisp numbers and not more complex ASTS 08:18:51 p_l: Bun then psilord1 backed down and claimed that number are just represented as numbers, so that we are back to the first problem again. 08:19:04 heh 08:19:21 well, this is not something I'm planning on working on soon... maybe for a PhD :P 08:19:46 p_l: Sure, I just wanted you to realize that it is not as easy as you might have thought initially. 08:20:35 spiaggia: normally, I leave when I state, but I was waiting for a backup to finish. I will state that the numbers are more complex things than just a 32 bit int, but lisp doesn't see it. I will take your example macro, and ensure I can either answer or not answer it with the thing I'm writing. 08:21:21 Sounds good. 08:21:47 spiaggia: I do realize, I was just idly pondering about possible solutions 08:23:09 p_l: The method I suggested above probably succeeds in most cases, but as I cannot solve the halting problem, it will sometimes fail. 08:23:47 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:24:46 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 08:25:06 spiaggia: If I must wait for the forward progress of an algorithm before I can trace the annotation of it, then I can live with that. If a macro decides to (loop) in the middle of it, I won't be able to tell you what it would have done, with the inputted sexpr, only what it had done up until the point where it looped. 08:25:53 Anything else is at best abstract interpretation, at worst, nasty heuristics. 08:26:48 psilord1: Rather than asking you again what that means and how it is going to solve the problem, I shall wait for your proof-of-concept implementation. 08:27:17 Rather than fail at explaining it yet again, I will wait for it too. *grin* 08:27:48 Ok, now I'm out. backup's done. Later all! 08:27:51 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@76.201.144.111] has left #lisp 08:32:08 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:39:58 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-26-49.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:44:22 ZabaQ [~Zaba@4.86-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:06 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-41-222.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:50:33 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-17-165.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:54:18 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:55:03 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 08:55:58 -!- david` [~user@88-163.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:00:50 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:01:07 ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@4.86-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:25 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 09:02:22 xan_ [~xan@121.141.77.209] has joined #lisp 09:03:00 blandest [~user@85.204.33.242] has joined #lisp 09:04:23 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C4E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:04:37 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@4.86-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:05:58 Yuuhi [benni@p548399FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:31 ysph` [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:25 -!- ysph` [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:10:14 -!- ysph [~user@75-143-70-52.dhcp.aubn.al.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:11:06 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:11:53 dwilliamii [~w@72.214.103.209] has joined #lisp 09:12:31 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:18 ldunn [~user@d110-32-128-133.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:18:25 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-128-133.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 09:18:25 ldunn [~user@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 09:20:29 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:28:14 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Quit: Kerrick] 09:29:18 spiaggia: you know, it would be easier to do in interpreted lisp 09:29:38 because then you can easily trace AST modification and simply record them 09:32:07 david` [~user@88-163.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:32:30 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 09:33:12 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-164-149.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 09:38:08 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754189.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:44 MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has joined #lisp 09:40:08 -!- ldunn [~user@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:43:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44:15 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 09:44:49 -!- luis` is now known as lusi 09:44:53 -!- lusi is now known as luis` 09:45:01 -!- luis` is now known as luis 09:46:17 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:54:24 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:58:44 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 09:59:31 vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:35 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 09:59:52 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-140-236.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:03:32 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p548399FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:04:32 tfb [~tfb@92.40.5.132.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:05:43 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-177.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:55 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-177.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:09:03 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.3.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:09:27 -!- katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:09:57 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-139-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:10 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:15:31 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-140-236.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:17:28 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:24:48 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 10:25:06 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 10:25:15 p_l: How would you do that though macroexpanders? 10:25:43 spiaggia: by tracing their execution? 10:26:02 aka "reversible computing" 10:26:42 I suppose that could work, yes. 10:27:32 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-140-236.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:27:37 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 10:32:47 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-140-236.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:35:29 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-140-236.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:35:42 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 10:38:12 kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has joined #lisp 10:38:22 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:38:33 hohoho_ [~hohoho@p4b1baf.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:39:17 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@p67f6db.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:42:15 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-140-236.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:42:19 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 10:46:06 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-140-236.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 10:46:50 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 10:47:54 <`micro> win nex 10:51:10 `micro: ? 10:51:44 spiaggia: he mistyped an irssi command 10:51:51 Ah! 10:52:10 /window next 10:52:20 with DWIM expansion :D 10:53:35 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:57:06 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 10:59:26 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:01:19 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-soylvkuduchimaef] has joined #lisp 11:01:45 limetree [~user@c-0be9e155.1226-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:04:36 antivigilante [~antivigil@63-225-211-81.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:53 -!- ZabaQ1 [~Zaba@4.86-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:07:53 -!- pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:09:07 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-139-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:10:04 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:12:14 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-139-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:21:23 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-140-236.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:22:51 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 11:26:22 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:26:42 zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-140-236.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 11:27:55 Yuuhi [benni@p548399FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:35 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-139-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:34:57 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:25 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.187] has joined #lisp 11:35:30 Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:17 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:39:16 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@85-127-140-236.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:40:47 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:41:01 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:25 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1503031474.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #lisp 11:50:00 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:57:27 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:58:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:59:40 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:00:27 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:03:47 -!- gko [~gko@114-137-3-27.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:05:42 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pdgkcabguynyofys] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:07:28 -!- xan_ [~xan@121.141.77.209] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:10:54 xan_ [~xan@121.141.77.209] has joined #lisp 12:11:32 -!- xan_ [~xan@121.141.77.209] has quit [Client Quit] 12:11:43 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:49 xan_ [~xan@121.141.77.209] has joined #lisp 12:15:38 -!- The_Jon_Smith [~The_Jon_S@ip24-250-13-137.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:18:22 -!- Dodek [~dodek@sundance.6irc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:18:22 <`micro> hi guys - sorry about that - missed the preceeding '/' 12:18:34 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:44 -!- lnostdal [~quassel@56.84-48-233.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:18:53 -!- djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:18:53 -!- clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:18:59 lnostdal [~quassel@56.84-48-233.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:00 z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has joined #lisp 12:19:01 No problem. I was just wondering what it was. 12:19:07 -!- z0d [~z0d@artifact.hu] has quit [Changing host] 12:19:07 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 12:19:18 -!- PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:19:18 -!- zbigniew [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:19:22 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:37 zbigniew [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:19:51 PuffTheMagic [~PuffTheMa@unaffiliated/puffthemagic] has joined #lisp 12:20:24 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-5-34.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:21:57 `(Good ,TIME-OF-DAY) everyone 12:22:08 hello Quadrescence 12:22:37 <`micro> hi 12:23:30 hi 12:23:48 is there a lisp implementation with threads on openbsd ? 12:23:56 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:59 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:27:23 scl, maybe? 12:27:42 on freebsd, sbcl works fine with threads, but I have no idea about openbsd 12:27:44 billitch: also, armed bear (java) or ecls (embedded c) possibly. 12:28:55 do preemptive threads work on OpenBSD at all? 12:29:25 I assume so... 12:29:38 beach: just because I stumbled over them again, you might review the CLIM drawing primitives for usefulness while you're at it 12:29:39 cooperative on an OS level is severely out of fasion 12:29:51 I think MacOS 9 was the last non-specialist one 12:29:57 there was an incompatible change in asdf2 regarding :pathname, right? 12:29:58 beach: specifically, I'm not sure anyone ever used the draw- functions without the star 12:30:07 seems like it's not evaluated anymore; what's the workaround? 12:30:17 rsynnott: I think OpenBSD only has pre-emptive processes, but not threads 12:30:19 tcr: it wasn't evaluated in asdf1 either (: 12:30:25 -!- hohoho_ [~hohoho@p4b1baf.tokynt01.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:30:47 so sum1 told me lisp is only used 4 ai and that lisp is slow and i should use c is this true?????? well it uses lists so obviously it uses moer memory but time?? 12:30:57 really? Odd. 12:31:36 Quadrescence: I don't see anything that's obvious about any of these statements. 12:31:44 Quadrescence: nor are they necessarily true (: 12:31:50 Quadrescence: there are cases when C is better suited, but that entirely depends on what you do 12:31:58 Quadrescence: there's no general 'best language' 12:31:59 Quadrescence: who is this "sum1" guy? he must be really smart for giving you so insightful advice. 12:32:05 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-119-224.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:32:09 jdz: Haha. 12:32:23 -!- david` [~user@88-163.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:32:27 someone told me that #lisp are really easy to troll, and will take any bait 12:32:30 I was kidding which I hope was obvious. I'm just trying to find a way to put off porting this old CLtL1 code to sbcl 12:32:31 -!- jsnell_ is now known as jsnell 12:32:45 rsynnott: I think they consider threaded programs to be broken by default 12:32:56 jsnell: now you lost your disguise 12:32:59 antifuchs: cxml.asd contains lots of :pathname (merge-pathnames ), I'd just guess that this has not been broken all the time but rather that asdf1 actually evaluated :pathname 12:33:16 tcr: I recall using #.(make-pathname ) in asdf1 all the time 12:33:33 I believe there was a fix to cxml about that recently, though 12:33:59 <`micro> billitch: only guile (scheme) is linked against pthreads library. 12:35:36 <`micro> also ecl (embedded common lisp) 12:36:22 rsynnott: there's a very limited kernel thread support, and OpenBSD's pthread library runs inside single process with with sequential multithreading (it doesn't require explicit cooperative calls) 12:36:41 rsynnott: as for OS9, it had cooperative multitasking iirc 12:36:53 yep 12:37:12 hmm, never knew that about OpenBSD; bizarre 12:37:18 must make porting a lot of fun :) 12:37:52 ZabaQ [~Zaba@236.88-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:00 rsynnott: someone wrote that Hell will freeze over before OpenBSD supports concurrent threads :P 12:39:03 <`micro> interesting post on OpenBSD threads: http://www.daemonforums.org/showthread.php?p=33013 12:40:00 fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:13 the problem with following German lispers on twitter is that, in general, they tend to tweet in German. 12:42:06 What is/was the rationale for having CL be case-insensitive (or any lisps in general)? 12:42:32 fusss: so do the australian lispers, bizarrely 12:42:41 everything was case-insensitive uppercase then? 12:43:37 i remember working on a mainframe, which had a button on the monitor to change the case of letters (when depressed, all letters on the screen would turn uppercase) 12:44:04 *Xach* makes all his letters lowercase when depressed 12:44:11 fusss: I try to mix it up a little... keep followers on their toes (: 12:44:35 Xach: does lower case make you happier? 12:44:38 antifuchs: i was think of you and HH 12:44:49 yeah, Hans too, I suppose (: 12:45:00 Xach: So, is the Xach key the anti-Shift key? 12:45:08 fusss: no doubt you can get a twitter client which will run it through Google Translate for you :) 12:45:35 i have two twitter accounts for twittering in two languages, but twitter really does not want people to have many accounts it seems... 12:45:38 (Shift makes all my letters uppercase when depreesed) 12:46:02 Quadrescence: well, lisp predates the invention of lower-case letters :) 12:46:16 jdz: I have twitter accounts for lispmeetings, quicklisp, and xach. the website is not convenient, but there are clients that make it nicer. 12:46:28 *Xach* must fix his lispmeetings code to use oauth 12:46:34 Xach: yeah, with clients it's doable 12:46:35 rsynnott: Hahaha 12:46:36 Xach: aussie Lispers? LukeGo and Al Picard. who else? 12:46:49 fusss: antifuchs. haven't you noticed his emoticons are upside down? 12:46:49 `micro: those threads are however unusable for implementing pthreads stuff 12:47:11 *antifuchs* grins 12:47:12 Xach: that would have taken me a while to get 12:47:15 Xach: except that the gwibber thing (default twittering client on ubuntu) is lame 12:47:41 jdz: I 12:47:59 I've found that if left running over the weekend it can consume up to a gigabyte of resident memory 12:48:04 quite impressive for a twitter app 12:48:31 (Desktop twitter apps in general are rarely good; the best one I know of is just a MacOS port of an old iPhone twitter client...) 12:49:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:49:30 i don't remember what's the name of the OSX app i used when i was on OSX, but it was quite good (i did not have any complaints when they fixed login problems) 12:50:01 Dodek [dodek@sundance.i-rpg.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:43 nambu 12:51:02 ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:52:02 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.220.181] has joined #lisp 12:52:16 -!- ehu [~ehuels@ip118-64-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has left #lisp 12:52:33 p_l: for the record, OpenBSD kernel threads were presented in 2005 : http://www.openbsd.org/papers/eurobsd2005/tedu-rthreads.pdf 12:52:52 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 12:56:00 billitch: yes, they do exist, but they are very different from what is used for pthreads etc. 12:56:31 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:31 and afaik rthtreads are an unsupported modification 12:57:00 so there's concurrent kthreads and non-concurrent pthreads and then you've got the patches for rthreads, iirc 12:57:16 p_l: well that's what porting is about 12:58:01 billitch: interesting that both rthreads and current linux threads use rfork() 12:58:19 but unsupported is a very different claim than "hell will freeze" 12:58:31 (with clone() being actually routed through it) 12:58:35 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 12:58:52 billitch: yes, however as far as I know rthreads aren't considered for inclusion into mainline 13:00:46 p_l: sorry, i thought you meant unsupported by others 13:01:54 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:05:24 -!- Athas [~athas@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09:18 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:09:33 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 13:09:36 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Quit: .] 13:09:56 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217129081.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 13:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:47 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 13:18:03 -!- nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:18:12 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-5-34.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:19:34 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-119-224.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: HG`] 13:19:45 mmullis_ [~mmullis@208.65.90.233] has joined #lisp 13:20:39 Odin- [~sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:21:03 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 13:21:23 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@58.145.143.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:21:41 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-240-127.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:30:19 rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 13:32:31 -!- sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-76-118-76-200.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:32:55 sabalaba [~sabalaba@c-76-118-76-200.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:09 -!- `micro is now known as micro` 13:33:30 -!- micro` is now known as `micro 13:33:40 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:33:59 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.160.125] has joined #lisp 13:34:57 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217129081.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:35:16 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:10 -!- benny [~user@i577A103F.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:02 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.220.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:38:14 -!- luis [~luis@nhop.r42.eu] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 13:38:42 stipet [~user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:51 benny [~user@i577A103F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:41:13 -!- stipet [~user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:43:15 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 13:43:52 david` [~user@88-163.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:45:10 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:00 TDT [~user@129.255.235.69] has joined #lisp 13:49:07 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:52:18 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 13:52:21 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:54:49 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:01 TeMPOraL [~user@erlang.pnet.com.pl] has joined #lisp 13:55:55 fe[nl]ix: will there be a new iolib containing the post 0.7.0 fixes but not containing the libfixposix changes? 13:56:12 does 0.7.0 work ok without the darwin fixes that came after? 13:56:38 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.115.160.125] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:56:45 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.160.125] has joined #lisp 13:56:57 Xach: good point. I'll make a new release :) 13:57:34 redline6561 [~redline@gate-22.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:58:03 rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-135-9.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:16 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:58:17 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.16.25] has joined #lisp 13:58:50 minion: memo for gigamonkey: you need to kick your blog server again; fetching your feed is timing out. 13:58:50 Remembered. I'll tell gigamonkey when he/she/it next speaks. 13:59:31 fishoneeyed [~user@unaffiliated/fishoneeyed] has joined #lisp 13:59:44 -!- fishoneeyed [~user@unaffiliated/fishoneeyed] has left #lisp 14:02:59 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.16.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:08:05 rvirding [~rvirding@gamestudio.smart-lab.se] has joined #lisp 14:09:57 yo lispers 14:10:33 tompa [~tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:50 -!- tompa [~tompa@h59ec27fb.sehjjak.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has left #lisp 14:10:56 I've just committed a small fix to clonsigna for anyone possibly interested 14:11:16 I'll soon start writing a webmail client 14:13:06 rvirding_ [~rvirding@gamestudio.smart-lab.se] has joined #lisp 14:13:29 -!- rvirding_ [~rvirding@gamestudio.smart-lab.se] has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:00 -!- rvirding [~rvirding@gamestudio.smart-lab.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:16:56 -!- limetree 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seconds] 15:26:18 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has quit [Quit: red1ynx] 15:27:09 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:21 -!- postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-240-127.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Quit: postamar] 15:27:32 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 15:30:16 srolls [~user@c-76-126-221-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:35 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:37:38 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:37:46 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:46 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 15:37:59 OliverUv_ [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:20 -!- vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:40:00 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:41:26 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:41:28 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Quit: Planned down time ^^] 15:42:13 nikki93 [~nikki@89.211.146.212] has joined #lisp 15:42:32 Anyone has a link to lisp's 'grammar definition' in this format: http://www.csci.csusb.edu/dick/c++std/cd2/gram.html 15:43:08 nikki93: there is no grammar definition for Lisp. 15:43:14 Ok. 15:43:42 http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3214130370447363@naggum.net.html has a little bit of context 15:43:44 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has joined #lisp 15:48:28 I really wish he was still around writing articles. 15:49:15 would he flame you for saying "he was" instead of "he were" ? 15:49:21 He wrote an awful lot in Norwegian after he stopped posting in English, but they seemed to be more about politics than technical matters. 15:49:49 who knows, but as a native speaker of english idiom, i think i get leeway; esp. in irc. :) 15:50:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52:14 askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has joined #lisp 15:52:29 leod [~LeoD@eta-ori.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:29 wow, that's an uncommonly garbled Erik statement 15:53:54 I can't parse the sentence "If you want to read ..." 15:53:56 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:13 drat, just missed it 15:55:38 -!- OliverUv_ [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:55:39 askatasuna: talking about http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3214130370447363@naggum.net.html 15:56:01 many thx 15:56:29 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.5.132.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:56:48 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-142-235.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:57 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:28 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.75.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:00:23 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:01:11 lemoinem [~swoog@216.252.89.158] has joined #lisp 16:03:24 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-177.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:32 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:03:59 i often read scientific papers for correction (i am a native english speaker in argentina), mostly regarding organic chemistry, and they tend to like awfully long and convoluted sentences that describe processes. To make it easier to read them, i simplify them to "if this then that, when this other, etc" and then fill in with the details until i understand. anyway, I think erik means to say that its 16:04:02 easier to parse lisp in lisp, than writing a lisp parser in something else 16:04:31 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:04 More the point, he's saying that it's easier to parse lisp in lisp and spit out whatever other format you want than to write a lisp parser in some other language. 16:05:19 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-100-100.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:05:23 There's an additional component to the task. 16:05:33 nyef: right 16:06:47 yes, that's the idea I had, but I was surprised at his inelegant phrasing, as I had the recollection that he was very skilled at expression in English 16:07:23 -!- wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:07:52 meh, he was human. bad grammar day perhaps? in any case it isn't a very basic concept either to express in a single sentence. 16:09:08 long sentences are NOT inelegant. 16:09:24 They are actually very elegant - just out of reach of the common public 16:09:53 *askatasuna* chuckles 16:10:42 i guess its cultural. germans are very used to very long sentences, with the verb at the very end 16:12:06 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 16:12:13 The sentence he wrote is inelegant because it's poorly phrased, not because it is long. 16:12:33 -!- MagBo [~Sweater@195.114.56.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12:57 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:09 well, its go time. was nice butting in. 16:13:12 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.33.72] has quit [Quit: gone] 16:13:23 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:14:01 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:14:21 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A7F57.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:14:52 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:14:58 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-217-177.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:15:07 OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:38 nikki93: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/02_b.htm <--- that's how you parse lisp 16:16:40 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-137.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:17:20 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:33 *drewc* yawns and stretches and looks forward to another long day of lisping 16:17:38 wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-137.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:18:45 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:18:47 -!- wbooze` [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-137.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:18:49 OliverUv_ [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:52 *ZabaQ* envies drewc 16:18:59 drewc: Cool. 16:20:05 nikki93: http://homepage1.nifty.com/bmonkey/lisp/sacla/html/lisp/reader.lisp.html <--- and that's how you write such a parser 16:20:23 drewc: I wrote a stack-based scripting language interpretter. 16:20:25 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has left #lisp 16:20:26 s/tt/t/ 16:21:13 *drewc* writes in lisp 16:22:07 tfb [~tfb@92.41.80.217.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:22:18 -!- OliverUv_ [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has left #lisp 16:25:12 nikki93: there are at least two level of grammar in Lisp. 16:25:50 nikki93: at the first level, lisp sources are made of sexps. The grammar is: sexp ::= atom | '(' atom... ')' . Utterly trivial. 16:26:17 nikki93: But there's actually another grammar level above it, which is defined for each operator of CL in the CLHS. 16:26:50 nikki93: so to gather the grammar of CL (of the operators exported from the "CL" package), you would have to read CLHS and gather all the individual grammar productions. 16:27:37 Eg. ::= '(' 'dotimes' '(' [ ] ')' * { | }* ')' . 16:32:47 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:34:41 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-137.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:01 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-53-137.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:07 Demosthenes [~demo@206.180.155.43.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #lisp 16:36:13 timor [~timor@port-92-195-199-37.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:47 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.41.80.217.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:37:53 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:38:38 nikki93: the only problem with that, is that since you can write a new macro at any time, that means you're adding new custom productions to the grammar of your language at any time. So it does you no good to collect the initial set of productions anyways. 16:39:00 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:39:01 (usually). 16:40:38 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:42:00 SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:51 -!- ZabaQ [~Zaba@236.88-246-213.ippool.namesco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:44:09 -!- dwilliamii [~w@72.214.103.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 242 seconds] 16:45:38 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217129081.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:46:37 -!- benny [~user@i577A103F.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:48:12 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 16:49:25 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:22 I wrote a lisp-based scripting language interpreter. (lambda (x) (eval x)). 16:52:22 a hundred year old language, finally? 16:54:41 Fare: c'mon - python would be something like eval(str) in python. 16:55:22 moah [~gnu@188.109.175.150] has joined #lisp 16:55:23 Fare: That's functionally equivalent to using a library in C to do graphics like make_graphics(awesome_grahics_stuff); and saying "Look I made graphics lib!". :P 16:55:49 whoosh 16:58:09 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:42 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 17:04:32 smithzv_ [~smithzv@c-98-245-201-232.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:44 benny [~user@i577A70B1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:06:48 -!- TDT [~user@129.255.235.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07:20 -!- milanj [~milanj_@93-86-115-28.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:10:27 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:04 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-78-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 17:12:10 stassats`, just you wait 17:12:15 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 17:16:21 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: BrianRice] 17:18:26 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.9/20100824144458]] 17:21:32 pjb: NTFS supports symlinks since vista 17:21:53 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-139-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:45 fe[nl]ix: are they real symlinks? eg. HFS also has something similar (aliases), but their semantics are quite different from symlinks. 17:24:56 pjb: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa365680%28VS.85%29.aspx 17:25:43 I don't like to run Microsoft software. Even when it's on remote servers. Even when they belong to Microsoft... ;-) 17:25:53 -!- Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:26:05 That's good they're unix symlinks. 17:26:09 Aliases are confusing. 17:26:27 Borbus [borbus@borbus.kicks-ass.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:32 If you move the target, and create a new one instead, the alias follow the original target... 17:28:43 dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:38 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #lisp 17:31:03 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-9296.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:31:07 Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl29-2-0-cust326.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:31:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-167-231.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:32:04 sellout [~greg@18.111.50.184] has joined #lisp 17:38:29 davazp [~user@205.Red-88-25-184.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:55 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:44:01 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:46:10 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-100-100.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:46:11 fe[nl]ix: NTFS actually support symlinks longer, but there wasn't exacly an API 17:46:19 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 17:46:50 or rather, NTFS has reparse points, in which the OS can do wtf it wants 17:48:45 bozhidar` [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has joined #lisp 17:58:03 luis: herep ? 17:58:29 -!- Joreji [~thomas@92-200.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:02:31 levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:03:41 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-75-36-215-204.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:03:50 Fare: t 18:04:19 are you still using stefil for testing babel, etc.? What with the maintainers renaming it to hu.dwim.stefil? 18:04:32 is there a de facto fork? 18:05:13 many projects use stefil as stefil 18:05:38 luis is the keeper of the fork 18:06:29 is stefil a hungarian lisp project? 18:07:03 Fade: kind of, apparently. 18:07:10 hrmn 18:07:11 Is Hungarian Lisp Lisp with Hungarian notation? 18:07:12 stefil is written by attila lendvai and me 18:07:36 Phantom_Hoover, no thanks 18:07:49 luis, would you accept a patch to use the upstream stefil? 18:08:17 levente_meszaros, are you intending to stay with darcs, or jumping in the git bandwagon any time soon? 18:09:18 -!- bozhidar` [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:21 Fare, we will stay with darcs 18:09:39 IMHO git is not that much better if better at all 18:11:18 Fare: What is the advantage of switching to hu.dwim.stefil? 18:13:29 -!- dto [~dto@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:15:18 Fare: today i am testing with asdf 2.127! 18:15:32 Fare: loading it produces style warnings about forward-referenced functions. 18:15:40 ; undefined function: CIRCULAR-DEPENDENCY-COMPONENTS 18:17:18 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-69-196.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:21:52 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:21:55 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 18:22:07 Xach: oh. 18:22:26 Xach: advantage would be, not having yet another fork. 18:22:49 -!- mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:23:57 lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has joined #lisp 18:24:01 -!- lexa_ [~lexa_@seonet.ru] has left #lisp 18:24:32 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:46 -!- moah [~gnu@188.109.175.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:10 I have a Stefil fork? :) 18:25:30 right over there, in tarballs/inofficial! 18:25:41 It's not really a fork. It's the pre-name-change version. 18:26:09 Ah, right. That was done to support CFFI asdf-installability 18:26:20 thank god we have quicklisp now :) 18:26:42 several other projects rely on pre-rename stefil 18:27:29 Xach: style warning on sbcl? 18:28:01 Xach: ok, try 2.128 18:29:01 smanek [~smanek@c-98-206-218-88.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:48 *Xach* tries 18:31:15 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has joined #lisp 18:31:41 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-8-40.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:34:35 uh 18:34:46 anyone wanna halp me setup clisp on my server with asdf? 18:36:57 salva [~salva@246.22.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:40:33 zc00gii, what problems are you having if any? 18:41:48 -!- Jubb [~ghost@129.21.106.59] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 18:41:49 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.52.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:43:28 How often does this channel get idealists who want to write The Next Lisp OS? 18:43:48 Phantom_Hoover, all the time. 18:43:52 Phantom_Hoover: a few per month 18:43:55 new-lisper [~daniel@c95339ea.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 18:43:55 After all, I'm there. 18:44:04 If you think big enough, you never have to do anything. 18:44:12 Heh. 18:44:13 Or do you mean, who chat on the channel about it? 18:44:28 Chat on the channel, really. 18:44:35 Phantom_Hoover, does the current conversation count, or is it meta? 18:44:44 Meta. 18:45:04 dunno. Can join #tunes if you want a place where it's on topic 18:45:15 meta-conversations might lead to meta-headaches 18:45:15 Fare: asdf doesn't appear to be a package 18:45:40 *** - LOAD: A file with name ASDF does not exist 18:45:45 do I have to install it manually? 18:45:59 zc00gii, which ASDF are you using? 18:46:03 no clue 18:46:08 I'm used to sbcl 18:46:12 it automatically has it 18:46:12 works for me with ASDF 2.128 or 2.007 18:46:16 you use what? 18:46:29 Fare: do you have to install it manually? 18:46:38 zc00gii, unhappily you do. 18:46:46 -!- ohih0wru [~andrei@78.84.163.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:46:47 ah 18:46:50 how? 18:46:54 and I want asdf-install too 18:47:02 zc00gii: what is your implementation? 18:47:03 Maybe if you complain on the clisp mailing list you'll get some answer. 18:47:04 wget http://l1sp.org/asdf/asdf.lisp 18:47:13 They need pressure from more people than just me. 18:47:16 zc00gii: I got it 18:47:19 Xach: thanks! 18:47:40 zc00gii, no you don't want asdf-install. You want clbuild or quicklisp. 18:47:53 asdf-install is not actively maintained anymore. 18:48:03 Fare: is it? 18:48:16 omg 18:48:35 the original asdf-install is maintained in the sense that it was repaired when it broke due to asdf changes. 18:48:35 omg? 18:48:56 ok, it's "minimally maintained". 18:49:03 oh 18:49:07 What should you use instead? 18:49:15 ok, I have time to change, so 18:49:17 Oh, clbuild. 18:49:24 yeah, asdf-install was using asdf internals, and I failed to notice in time - shame on me. 18:49:25 quicklisp if you feel adventurous, clbuild if you feel masochistic. 18:49:35 Fare: I'm used to asdf-install 18:49:40 thus, I will use it 18:49:45 what's wrong with clbuild? 18:49:49 it's pretty terrible 18:49:50 as long as it works for you, that's fine. 18:49:54 that was meant for asdf-install 18:49:59 sykopomp, what's masochistic about clbuild? 18:50:28 Fare: besides having to install every vcs known to man just to get a new system up and running? 18:50:29 *Phantom_Hoover* keeps on finding out that X is crap when he's been using it for ages. 18:51:04 *new-lisper* thinks X is only useful for browsing the internet... 18:51:06 I guess it's also pretty bad how difficult it is to fix when something decides to break (in my experience) 18:51:35 there's also the "I'm feeling lucky" aspect. 18:51:39 sie [sie@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has joined #lisp 18:51:40 new-lisper, X in the mathematical sense. 18:51:50 sykopomp, that's what apt-get is good for. 18:52:01 oh, sorry 18:52:03 sykopomp: it's only masochism if you enjoy the pain... 18:52:09 Is there function for "unequal"? >.< 18:52:15 Xach: why would you use it otherwise? 18:52:16 inequal* 18:52:19 Fare: anyway, to answer your question, sure. I'd accept that patch. (Sorry got sidetracked with work.) 18:52:20 ;) 18:52:45 (not (= n 1))? 18:52:53 luis: thanks. 18:52:53 Fare: there are other issues with using apt-get. 18:53:04 such as not having apt-get available :) 18:53:20 that's why I use pacman 18:53:31 clhs \= 18:53:32 sykopomp, this is admittedly a problem. More a sign that your OS installer sucks, though. 18:53:43 uh 18:53:54 anyone here uses ArchLinux too? 18:53:56 what's the "normal" way to load asdf packages? 18:54:05 new-lisper: I do on my laptops and servers 18:54:07 new-lisper, I and sykopomp 18:54:25 Fare: I'm not a fan of apt-get. I like to think I use better tools than that :) 18:54:32 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f754189.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:35 sykopomp, what do you use? 18:54:36 daniel_ [~daniel@p5082A7A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:38 great, I am not alone 18:54:38 I use gentoo on this box 18:55:04 Fare: as sie said. Arch. 18:55:19 There are some efforts to package up lisp libraries. I'm not sure that's the right way to go. 18:55:24 not for source code, at least. 18:56:46 with asdf2, you can mix and match libraries from several library packagers. 18:57:02 s/packager/distributor/ 18:57:11 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:58:20 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082A67D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:58:28 Is it possible to give function an argument with bordeaux threads? 18:59:53 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 19:00:27 sie: otherwise, you can make you own (lambda () (funcall 'foo bar baz)) 19:00:59 Hmm, I'll guess I'll have to do that. 19:01:50 _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 19:04:54 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:08 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:09:58 aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:11:25 anyone here uses Lisp on your real work 19:11:54 new-lisper: I do. Lots of other folks here, also. 19:12:19 good, so I may have a chance to get a Lisp job if I am lucky 19:12:31 -!- weirdo [sthalik@sthalik.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:12:39 i don't think it quite works that way :) 19:13:03 drewc: IF I am lucky 19:13:12 "I'd rather be lucky than good!" 19:17:05 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:21:10 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:23:11 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:24:10 rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:59 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C1D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:33:18 what do you think of land of lisp 19:35:04 i am thinking of buying it 19:36:16 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:36:43 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 19:36:50 new-lisper: lol 19:37:20 sykopomp: i am 13 19:37:37 new-lisper: I just thought I'd acronymize that. 19:38:09 new-lisper, when I was your age, we had PCL and we were happy with it! 19:39:01 Phantom_Hoover: yes, i know, put i am planning to trade a trip to Parati which costs R$900 for some lisp books 19:39:13 Phantom_Hoover: and a Das Keyboard 19:39:53 so begins the basement-dwelling, I guess. 19:40:10 My house didn't even have a basement! 19:40:23 neither did mine! 19:40:34 The horror! 19:40:48 neither mine, as we live in an apartment on the 7th floor 19:40:57 PROGRAMMING SHOULD BE LEARNT IN BASEMENTS 19:41:16 sh*t 19:41:22 I wish I had known about Lisp when I was 13. :) 19:41:38 Getting started early sounds nice. 19:42:03 It was the 3rd language I learned, and the first I really got into. 19:42:28 it is the second language i am learning 19:42:29 deego [~user@74.255.63.136] has joined #lisp 19:42:38 i started with ruby 19:43:40 now i started thinking, is there any irc client written on Lisp? 19:44:11 sort of 19:44:16 new-lisper, also, LOL is anti-Haskell. 19:44:22 Haskell is cool. 19:44:37 Phantom_Hoover: If you think that, you read it wrong. 19:44:54 yeah, i like haskell 19:44:56 I did. 19:45:04 it has a very clean syntax 19:45:08 *Phantom_Hoover* had about 3 minutes to do things 19:45:16 And MONADS! 19:45:51 Phantom_Hoover: so does scheme, and CL, to a certain extent. 19:46:11 I do not like abbreviating Land of Lisp to LOL, as it remembers me of Let Over Lambda 19:46:25 *sykopomp* is still amused at drewc's package-monads. 19:46:25 -!- nikki93 [~nikki@89.211.146.212] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 19:46:30 when i was 13 VB3 was the new hotness 19:46:43 drewc, you poor baby! 19:46:54 drewc: I think it was VB4 here, although VB 1.0 had a kick ass compiler. 19:47:02 i'm not at all ashamed... it was revolutionary at the time! 19:47:03 doh. I also read LOL as Let Over Lambda -- even though I had seen the earlier reference to Land of Lisp. 19:47:20 -!- deego [~user@74.255.63.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:43 LoL has always been Lisp on Lines damnit! Me and Portable Common Loops have beer and whine about it. 19:48:09 Heh. 19:48:15 drewc: make sure you take Python with you. 19:49:20 :D 19:49:48 lots of love for laughs on Lisp :-P 19:50:16 -!- salva [~salva@246.22.165.83.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 19:51:08 pkhuong: i actually bought a very expensive vb4 boxset at one point 19:51:18 omg 19:51:23 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:51:54 drewc: have you required any therapy as a result? :) 19:52:11 -!- metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has quit [Quit: Be seeing you.] 19:52:23 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:28 well, i learned how not to do it. 19:53:03 my first programming experience was when i was 5 19:53:12 it was my dad programming in vb 19:53:16 it was horrible 19:53:31 that made me want to be a sysadmin for a long long time 19:53:34 lol 19:54:15 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-139-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 19:54:18 *drewc* mumbles something about his PET and BASIC being an old friend, and goes back to feeding the ducks and commenting on the weather 19:55:17 *nyef* fondly remembers trying to write an interpreter for a made-up language in Applesoft BASIC. 19:56:29 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-203-193.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:56:44 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-139-221.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:05 Though, I think my favorite Applesoft BASIC hack was a program that printed out its own listing by parsing through its tokenized representation in memory instead of using the LIST command. 19:57:43 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-203-193.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:53 aren't those called quines? 19:57:55 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:15 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:50 No, quines hold a representation of their source code that they can interpret. They don't poke through the data structures of the interpreter running them to recover the information. 20:00:21 -!- sellout [~greg@18.111.50.184] has quit [Quit: sellout] 20:02:08 The classic C example involves a format string that ends up being a copy of the program, but with a %s where the format string itself goes. 20:04:00 sanduz2 [~sanduz2@c-98-242-203-195.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:26 That said, the classic Lisp example is any self-evaluating object, such as an integer, string, keyword symbol, et cetera. 20:07:04 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 20:13:19 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 20:13:26 (And there's a Lisp quine (possibly found by Krystof?) that consists of a single symbol that happens to have the correct value when evaluated for the quine, but wouldn't at any other normal time.) 20:13:52 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:40 Beetny [~Beetny@58.145.143.62] has joined #lisp 20:15:19 Xach: done 20:16:46 fe[nl]ix: i use git://gitorious.org/iolib/iolib.git but i don't see any updates from a git pull. what should i do? 20:17:09 is it just a matter of tags or something? 20:17:25 for quicklisp use http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/files/iolib-0.7.1.tar.gz 20:17:32 fe[nl]ix: ok, will do. 20:18:08 Has anyone started a Twisted-like project in CL? 20:18:21 sykopomp: that would be iolib 20:18:25 at least the core of twisted 20:18:37 dlowe: well, right. iolib is lower level :) 20:18:46 I'm wondering more about the higher-level protocol api. 20:20:50 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:21:13 luis started something like that for SoC, a few years ago 20:21:47 ... Is it anything like the Genera network-protocol stuff? 20:22:14 nyef: tell me more about the genera network-protocol stuff! 20:22:37 Umm. Actually, that's all I know about it. 20:23:16 (Seriously, I went the TI Emulator route to LispMs, not the Genera (hardware or VLM) route.) 20:24:38 Hm. I'm not interested in building out a full-fledged copy of Twisted, with all those random protocols I don't care about -- but maybe starting a rough draft of something similar would be useful. I could certainly use it for my current project. 20:25:11 That's the only sustainable way to do it anyway: Build just the bit you need for your current project, maybe polish it up a little, and then do more when you need more. 20:25:19 yeah 20:25:32 I'm kinda wondering if there's a more compelling approach to doing something similar than how Twisted does it. 20:26:08 I've just found that some code I wrote months ago is completely mismatched to what I want to do now. 20:26:10 I know little about how Twisted specifically does things, and the good and bad things -- other than the fact that it's event-based. 20:26:48 new-lisper: we always knew basic was bad. But second-hand basic seems to be even worse! 20:27:05 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 20:27:26 Honestly, VB6 wasn't bad, as BASIC goes. 20:27:37 Certainly better than what I had on my Vic-20. 20:34:21 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:36:25 ZabaQ [~Zaba@213.246.126.106] has joined #lisp 20:38:09 -!- davazp [~user@205.Red-88-25-184.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:21 kahmalo [~Kalle@2002:5517:2040:1:e60:76ff:fe4c:b1be] has joined #lisp 20:39:35 does the debugger of SBCL have any ability to debug other processes? 20:40:10 No, it doesn't. 20:40:16 thanks 20:40:32 I have some proof-of-concept code for such things, though, if you're curious and have some time on your hands. 20:40:47 how do you license it? 20:40:52 Surely using a Lisp debugger requires Lisp code? 20:41:10 Phantom_Hoover: Surely using a GNU debugger requires GNU code? 20:41:47 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C1D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:48 Well, it requires code with appropriate debug information. 20:42:08 jmbr [~jmbr@95.169.244.133] has joined #lisp 20:42:12 kahmalo: It might be one of the BSD licenses... Or might be something along the lines of F*** If I Care. 20:42:12 You can't just throw some assembly into GDB and expect it to work very well. 20:42:46 kahmalo: But, honestly, it's at the proof-of-concept stage. You'd probably end up rewriting the entire thing anyway by the time you get it actually usable. 20:43:01 what do you think about Racket? 20:43:06 Phantom_Hoover: That's because I can't throw -anything- into GDB and expect it to do something usable. 20:43:24 nyef: yeah, well, i don't expect to have anything working this year, nor the next 20:43:43 new-lisper: I think it's PLT Scheme by any other name. 20:44:01 nyef: yes, I know 20:44:17 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:44:23 nyef: It seems to be an interesting project 20:44:40 I bet #scheme or #racket have plenty to say about Racket! 20:45:15 sykopomp: I asked here because they seem to be wanting to add CL support soon 20:45:55 sykopomp: and because those channels are normally desert :) 20:46:14 Hrm. I don't seem to have my ptrace stuff in my webspace. 20:46:57 it's for ptrace only? no remote debugging of other machines? 20:47:34 For other machines, you'd have a ptrace-based process there proxying for the debugger. 20:48:05 sure, it just means the debugger cannot assume it can call ptrace directly 20:48:08 I really couldn't be bothered building anything on the supposedly-program-friendly GDB interface. 20:48:19 also the architecture might be different 20:48:43 Right. That's what things like generic functions and literal function objects are for. 20:48:49 :) 20:48:59 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:49:00 s/literal function objects/first-class functions/ 20:49:44 have you implemented anything clever about decoding machine instructions? 20:50:01 Anyway, I'm not seeing my ptrace stuff online, and the machine that has it is presently underneath a stack of books, but http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/object-memory-dumper.txt might be of interest. 20:50:04 is the output to text only, or can it also be used for analyzing stack frames without symbols 20:50:45 Ah, more serious reverse-compilation analysis? I used to mess about with such things, but not recently. 20:51:09 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-41-222.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:52:43 not analysis of entire programs, just to find what's going on in an infinite loop or a core dump if you don't have the debug info. 20:52:59 new-lisper: CL support?... 20:53:03 varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:53:21 sykopomp: I mean, into DrRacket 20:53:26 oh 20:53:36 anyway, it seems like i should just start from scratch; it should be a good way to learn 20:53:36 Yeah, yeah. Still, I haven't done much with that sort of thing recently. 20:53:54 It can be a good way to learn. 20:54:04 sykopomp: At least is what I have been told by one dev who tried to implement it in the PLT Scheme era 20:54:24 sykopomp: If it happens I'll be happy 20:54:35 -!- kahmalo [~Kalle@2002:5517:2040:1:e60:76ff:fe4c:b1be] has left #lisp 20:54:45 sykopomp: I like DrRacket 20:55:02 And if you want to try and get things running over a remote pipe or on more than just SBCL then you'd probably need to rewrite all my stuff anyway (I'm rather partial to SB-ALIEN instead of CFFI). 20:55:09 -!- Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:57:09 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.45.253.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 20:57:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:58:01 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:41 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:01:07 -!- 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now known as Phantom_Hoover 21:57:02 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:07 -!- sanduz2 [~sanduz2@c-98-242-203-195.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:58:06 Why doesn't sbcl in emacs with slime let me write  in my string? :/ 21:58:17 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-69-196.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 21:58:23 because it isn't configured to use unicode? 21:58:38 probably? 21:58:52 How do I configure it? 21:59:08 editing the PKGBUILD 21:59:23 I need to rebuild it? 21:59:46 maybe 21:59:59 Why *not* have Unicode by default? 22:00:09 two steps, first, make sure that sb-impl::*default-external-format* returns :UTF-8, second, set slime-net-coding-system on the emacs side to 'utf-8-unix 22:00:11 can sbcl display that on the normal console 22:00:41 new-lisper: If sb-impl::*default-external-format* is :UTF-8, yes. 22:00:57 so, that is what i am asking 22:00:59 Oh, and the "normal console" also supports unicode. 22:01:26 The value of sb-impl::*default-external-format* depends on your LOCALE or LANG setting, or something else on windows. 22:01:32 yes, too many vars 22:01:52 Easiest just to fire up SBCL and check the value, then figure out how to fix it if it's wrong. 22:02:00 *new-lisper* goes off to take a bath, since it is 7'o clock on Brazil 22:02:22 -!- vasuvi [~vasuvi@pool-71-112-205-250.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:03:07 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-5-34.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:03:20 stassats`, I set the slime variable through *scratch*? 22:03:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-8-40.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:04:11 there is a gazillion of ways of setting variables in Emacs 22:04:20 Okay, tell me a sane one. 22:04:38 putting it in your .emacs 22:05:02 M-x set-variable 22:06:01 don't listen to ecraven 22:07:22 Lis [~Lis@p5B203099.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:37 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 22:09:13 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:11:26 ldunn [~user@d110-32-128-133.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:11:30 stassats`, Okay, I set slime-net-ciding-system and the other one gave :UTF-8, but it's still not working. :/ 22:11:33 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:08 your variable had too much cider 22:12:19 -!- Lis [~Lis@p5B203099.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:12:49 -!- OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:12:51 aliudalius [~user@76.84.47.156] has joined #lisp 22:12:58 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-22-105.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:13:04 OliverUv [~gandhi@34.81-167-250.customer.lyse.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:08 stassats`, I wrote it correctly in emacs, that's not the fault. 22:13:22 did you restart everything? 22:13:57 Hmm, I guess I need to restart at least slime. ._. 22:15:18 stassats`, Thanks! ;] 22:15:22 *stassats`* wonders how one can do that 22:15:38 What exactly? 22:15:50 restarting slime 22:16:11 without restarting swank 22:16:28 No idea, what's swank, sir. 22:16:35 I just M-x slime. 22:16:45 sie: Lisp side of slime. 22:16:47 that's what sits in your lisp and talks to slime 22:17:06 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-0-10.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 22:17:12 and slime lives in Emacs 22:19:38 away 22:19:41 -!- aerique [~euqirea@aerique.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 22:20:07 oops 22:20:18 I typed /away without / 22:20:40 -!- aliudalius [~user@76.84.47.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:20:47 vasuvi [~vasuvi@pool-71-112-205-250.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:50 shhh 22:20:57 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.1.39.125] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 22:21:12 sorry 22:23:13 CL-IRC question  Is there a way to determine what kind of hook class does message have? 22:23:40 does sbcl has the modern option? 22:23:46 no 22:24:02 sie: in general, you can use class-of and find-class to find that out. 22:24:12 but if you're doing that, you may be doing it wrong :) 22:24:49 I don't want new callback for everyhook. I need just one, if I can find out the class. :] 22:25:01 new-lisper: it doesn't have modern-mode, but you _can_ portably prevent the reader from upcasing. 22:25:16 sykopomp: thanks 22:25:22 new-lisper: that means, though, that everything in COMMON-LISP needs to be typed in upper case. 22:25:33 and it's anyone's guess whether a library will work or not :) 22:25:40 sykopomp: I wanted to know because clisp has modern-mode 22:26:39 new-lisper: is there a specific reason why you want modern-mode? 22:27:03 sykopomp: No, is just for aesthetic reasons 22:27:30 sykopomp: And to have case-sensitive variables 22:27:45 new-lisper: CamelCase is _very_ bad style. 22:27:51 even in case-sensitive lisps. 22:28:10 s/case-sensitive/non-upcasing/ 22:28:11 It's very bad style everywhere, but lots of people have no style. 22:28:16 slyrus [~chatzilla@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:27 what a good excuse! 22:28:52 All languages should allow hyphenated names! 22:28:59 new-lisper: The main reason I would be interested in having the reader preserve case by default is interop. 22:29:10 (parenscript, FFI, etc) 22:29:25 there's issues with unicode, too, I guess. 22:29:34 I actually kinda like CamelCase, but not when you can do hyphened-named-like-this 22:29:38 but never for CamelCase or CONSTANT_NAMEs 22:29:51 *names 22:29:57 sykopomp: Is that (more or less) what I mean 22:30:21 I prefer having x and X as different variables 22:30:41 new-lisper: meh 22:30:49 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:31:15 what? 25 variables isn't enough for everyone? 22:31:44 shadow T and you've got 26 22:31:45 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:58 i don't even have so many registers in my processors 22:34:01 maybe that is because I started learning Lisp from Scheme 22:34:14 I like seeing T as t 22:34:57 dreish [~dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:34:58 i though i started from NewLisp 22:35:14 thought you, doh 22:35:22 newlisp? 22:35:26 omg 22:36:13 newlisp seems to be a big blend of all lisps 22:41:49 -!- mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:41:51 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:25 -!- TeMPOraL [~user@erlang.pnet.com.pl] has quit [Quit: zZZz] 22:48:05 -!- timor [~timor@port-92-195-199-37.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:48:16 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:45 -!- ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:49:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:50:43 ysph [~user@24-181-93-165.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:05 hi, what is the proper way to go about installing iolib with sbcl version 1.0.40 and asdf version 2.005? 22:52:25 i've downloaded iolib-0.7.1.tar.gz 22:53:19 use clbuild.. clbuild install iolib 22:55:38 is there a Lisp IRC client? 22:55:47 adeht: thanks, i am trying now 22:55:54 new-lisper: I use ERC, an irc client for emacs 22:56:28 adeht: I mean, non-Emacs 22:56:36 is it not intended to work through asdf-install? 22:57:08 ysph: no 22:57:18 minion: beirc 22:57:18 beirc: beirc is a CLIM IRC client Application using the cl-irc library as a backend, initially written by Gilbert Baumann, now maintained by Dave Murray and others. http://www.cliki.net/beirc 22:58:02 thank you 23:00:01 no cli? 23:00:32 ysph: for the near future I'd suggest you use the release, not the live sources you get with clbuild 23:01:41 new-lisper: it shouldn't be hard to come up with a hack using cl-irc 23:02:15 ok, i will check the sources 23:02:18 Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl29-2-0-cust326.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:02:53 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 23:03:59 -!- SegFaultAX [~SegFaultA@c-98-234-1-162.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:04:20 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 23:05:40 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 23:07:16 this has become a silent place 23:07:25 -!- rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:13 Phantom_Hoover_ [~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 23:08:57 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p548399FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:09:54 s1gma_ [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has joined #lisp 23:10:31 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover [~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl29-2-0-cust326.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:12:33 rread [~rread@c-24-130-52-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:05 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-128-133.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:13:17 -!- Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:13:47 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:17:07 -!- milanj [~milanj_@109-93-78-87.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:18:15 freddie111 [~user@ppp-94-64-165-161.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:19:26 fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has joined #lisp 23:23:17 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:24:21 quack [~fhc@81.193.93.131] has joined #lisp 23:24:37 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.115.160.125] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:58 does anyone have ipv6 here? 23:25:14 <_3b> judging by the hostmasks, i'd say quite a few do 23:25:21 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@63-225-211-81.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:25:25 <_3b> ip addresses i mean 23:25:42 yes, I saw some on #ruby 23:26:04 _3b: I haven't seen you in a long time! 23:26:29 *_3b* has been here, just not as active lately 23:26:35 oh 23:26:55 *new-lisper* thinks that makes sense 23:26:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:27:07 jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:06 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A2B5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:30 *new-lisper* sometimes thinks _3b is _3b` and vice-versa 23:31:42 *_3b* is 23:32:02 plot thickens! 23:32:08 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:32:24 *p_l* still has a /64 net somewhere, but not way to connect to it 23:32:32 antivigilante [~antivigil@63-225-211-81.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:37 _3b is _3b`? 23:32:45 new-lisper: yes 23:32:52 <_3b`> yes 23:33:10 great, I do not have to be afraid of thinking one person may be another 23:33:13 :) 23:33:29 <_3b`> usually means i'm on my laptop when i use this connection, aside from a few channels that i don't bother logging into from the other one 23:34:11 oh 23:34:37 _3b` is an evil twin of _3b 23:34:50 *_3b* should probably just switch to using ERC all the time, but still haven't gotten it quite working well enough 23:35:34 Nshag [user@lns-bzn-22-82-249-111-113.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:46 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@63-225-211-81.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:06 <_3b> either that or just write my own client :p 23:36:23 _that_ seems a good idea 23:36:29 <_3b> not really 23:36:29 share it with me :) 23:36:35 oh 23:36:35 ldunn [~user@d110-32-128-133.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 23:36:39 *new-lisper* is sad 23:36:44 <_3b> making a nice text-mode UI would be a hassle 23:37:00 or just use irssi 23:37:03 _3b: you could reuse phemlock's console mode 23:37:06 <_3b> though i guess i could do something browser based, hmm 23:37:35 i am too lazy to develop an irc client myself 23:37:43 -!- levente_meszaros [~levente_m@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:37:52 i guess i will take a look at suckless' irc clients 23:38:21 -!- new-lisper [~daniel@c95339ea.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:38:53 <_3b> p_l: yeah, that would be a possibility, still don't have time for it though 23:38:56 can c++ suddenly move objects under my feet? 23:39:05 *stassats`* is fighting caching in commonqt 23:39:17 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 23:39:32 new-lisper [~daniel@c95339ea.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:39:38 stassats: if you mean that the object should change its address, no 23:39:39 *_3b* wouldn't expect it to, but wouldn't be surprised by things getting deleted at random 23:39:43 not really, however Qt has some level of lifecycle control 23:39:53 also, there's RAII 23:40:17 adeht: ok, the it means something gets deleted without cache knowing that 23:40:33 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.118.197.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:42:05 use smart pointers :x 23:42:14 xan_ [~xan@220.118.197.183] has joined #lisp 23:42:27 i'm not smart enough 23:42:46 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@189.102.101.115] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:43:27 adeht: weren't smart pointers reliant on templates? 23:43:40 p_l: usually 23:43:53 -!- david` [~user@88-163.77-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:43:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ [~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:44:21 so, it might be quite hard to pass them properly in this case 23:44:32 huh? 23:44:49 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1C1D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:45:22 class template instantiations are simply classes.. and their objects are simply objects 23:47:04 adeht: it's a case where FFI interfaces generated by perl grovellers are used :D 23:47:08 I did miss that stassats was talking about commonqt, though. I can't say much about the issue without knowing more 23:49:15 it gives me not what i'm expecting from the cache, and cache is from qt object pointers to lisp wrapper objects 23:49:54 *new-lisper* has just registered 23:50:37 all those optimizations in commonqt are quite confusing 23:50:46 -!- new-lisper is now known as new-lisper` 23:51:18 stassats`: confusing will be native C++ bingind 23:51:20 *binding 23:51:36 -!- new-lisper` is now known as _new-lisper 23:51:59 -!- _new-lisper is now known as new-lisper 23:52:11 p_l: your reply confuses me 23:53:06 -!- new-lisper [~daniel@c95339ea.virtua.com.br] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:54:58 new-lisper [~daniel@c95339ea.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:55:38 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-5-34.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:38 sharps` [~user@ip-118-90-5-34.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:57:28 stassats`: I have a project stalled at exception support, that targets fully native C++ FFI 23:57:29 -!- brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:57:57 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:59:24 brandonz [~brandon@pool-74-97-30-61.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:26 Kerrick [~Kerrick@kerrick.student.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp