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02:20:22 gko [~gko@111.83.123.229] has joined #lisp 02:24:55 mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:23 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:29:29 I think I've asked this before but don't remember the answer: is there a way to get SBCL to offer me some kind of useful restart when I get symbol conflicts trying to compile a defpackage form? 02:41:34 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-128-133.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:11 seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:27 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:51:53 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-15-44.w86-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 02:54:01 guther [guther@92-55-242-8.net.pbthawe.eu] has joined #lisp 02:57:57 Adamant_ [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 02:58:05 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:58:05 -!- Adamant_ is now known as Adamant 03:02:24 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:05:13 -!- sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:05:56 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:09:05 ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has joined #lisp 03:13:33 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dcvnshisivrzsqob] has joined #lisp 03:14:54 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.118.197.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:16:09 metasyntax [~taylor@72.86.89.174] has joined #lisp 03:21:27 Stattrav [~Stattrav@unaffiliated/stattrav] has joined #lisp 03:30:42 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 03:35:28 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:36:48 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:39 tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.49.253] has joined #lisp 03:37:51 who do I use xref with slime? 03:38:19 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:39:06 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-198-44-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:41:00 Good morning everyone! 03:41:17 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-eanhsldhcxvouair] has joined #lisp 03:41:47 hi 03:42:11 tcleval: I assume you meant "how" rather than "who"? 03:42:48 ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:21 yes beach 03:44:18 -!- ephcon [~ephcon@c-24-34-195-72.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:44:25 I am new to common lisp and slime and emacs :-) I saw something on slime manual about cross references, but I cant see it working. note: I am using clisp 03:46:48 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:47:09 tcleval: I don't know about CLISP, but the commands seem to work as stated in the manual. 03:48:54 beach what does happen when you call cross reference? do i need anything special on ~.emacs.el to make cross ref. to work? 03:49:55 tcleval: Nothing special. If I do (say) C-c C-w r, I get a new window with all the function that use the variable at point. 03:52:02 I am using an example from "Practial Common Lisp" the mp3 database, the variable *db* does not show any reference, but I use it in some places 03:52:40 I'm afraid I can't reproduced that, but then, I am not using CLISP. 03:53:05 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@pool3-48.teleclipse.net] has left #lisp 03:53:05 beach, what do you use for CL? 03:53:23 SBCL. Most people here probably do. 03:53:44 I ll conf slime to use it 03:55:56 beach, does sbcl already supports windows? or maybe windows + cygwin? 03:56:16 I wouldn't know. I don't use Windows. 03:56:42 me too.. just worried about portability 03:56:43 If you are on windows, I recommend you buy Lispworks. 03:57:26 I wonder how portable CL is... is it portable as C or portable as java? 03:57:41 I mean C is always trick 03:58:10 tcleval: It doesn't have a standardized virtual machine, but most implementations conform to the standard. 03:58:47 tcleval: it also seems to be getting more portable in recent years. 03:59:01 As more libraries are written to hide implementation differences. 03:59:13 and Java seem to be getting less portable if I understand it correctly. 03:59:31 That said CLISP is perhaps the most ... quirky ... implementation. 04:00:07 *gigamonkey* still has a soft-spot in his heart for CLISP 04:02:06 hey beach, with sbcl cross references are working :-P 04:02:30 That's good I suppose. 04:02:45 or it is some missing feature of clisp or I have to specify some arg to clisp 04:08:40 Demosthenes [~demo@wsip-70-167-81-102.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:01 Do many Common Lispers avoid the loop construct? 04:10:25 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@pool-72-83-118-99.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: mattrepl] 04:11:21 symbole: No. 04:16:46 beach: what are my alternatives if I need CL programs to run on Linux and Windows? 04:17:05 tcleval: I don't know. I don't use Windows. 04:17:10 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:17:14 Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has joined #lisp 04:17:15 tcleval: I suggest you buy Lispworks. 04:20:21 aceluck [~aceluck@175.137.79.23] has joined #lisp 04:21:45 There are several free lisps like CLISP and SBCL that can run on Windows. Although, people they the coverage is spotty. 04:21:46 I think clisp doesn't have the necessary support for xref. 04:22:06 Why not CCL on windows? 04:22:32 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:22:46 symbole: I kind of avoid loop, except for fairly simple loops. 04:23:24 tcleval: hi - could u recommend docs/tutorials for clisp on emacs using slime? 04:24:04 guther: Are you aware that CLISP is the name of a Common Lisp implementation? 04:24:18 -!- Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has quit [Quit: A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value.] 04:24:57 nope 04:25:12 I'm talking about common lisp 04:25:28 Then use "Common Lisp" or "CL"; not "CLISP" 04:25:36 ok 04:25:42 And while you are at it, use "you" rather than "u". 04:25:54 okAY 04:25:55 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:25 *chuckle* 04:26:35 guther: The SLIME manual is fairly good. 04:27:12 guther: I basically used the manual 04:27:16 it's within the tarball? 04:27:30 I read from slime webpage 04:27:52 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime 04:27:58 guther: Install SLIME from CVS, not from a distribution, because distributions tend to be old. 04:28:24 I typed "slime manual" to google and used the first hit. 04:28:24 yeah that 2.. I installed from cvs today 04:28:35 tcleval: "too" 04:28:56 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/ 04:29:14 beach: u r 2 good @ english 04:29:22 :-) 04:29:38 tcleval: No, but I know how to use my tools, for instance abbrev mode in Emacs. 04:30:03 That was a joke. 04:30:16 tcleval: It makes me sad how people allow themselves to use crappy typing just because they don't want to learn their tools. 04:30:33 tcleval: I know, but it's to early for jokes like that. I am not quite awake yet. 04:30:46 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:31:06 I never said I don't want to learn. Maybe I just don't know yet 04:31:23 tcleval: Fair enough. 04:31:47 I use IRSSI, and I dont know of any tool like the one you use on emacs 04:32:01 tcleval: I use ERC. 04:32:13 what is that? 04:32:21 Amadiro [~whoppix@ti0021a380-dhcp1747.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 04:32:24 An IRC client for Emacs. 04:32:44 ... so that I can use my usual tools like abbrevs, spell checking, etc. 04:32:56 nice 04:32:58 tcleval: M-x erc-select 04:33:27 If I might interupt..at this point I don't fully understand the controverse about interpreter vs. (versus) compiler in lisp. Are even bigger project usally run in an interpreter? 04:33:29 hey beach what lisp implementation have you used? 04:34:29 guther: No. 04:34:59 maybe Maxima, if I can call it a big project 04:35:17 tcleval: Depends on your definition of Lisp. SBCL, CMUCL, Franz Lisp, several Scheme implementation, and a few of my own implementations. 04:35:36 so there actually _are_ such things as compilers in lisp..how about slime on emacs - can I compile with it? 04:35:41 -!- Kerrick [~Kerrick@e40-1.nat.iastate.edu] has quit [Quit: Kerrick] 04:35:49 guther: SBCL compiles as you type. 04:35:51 beach: only ansi CL 04:36:08 tcleval: Then SBCL and CMUCL. 04:36:14 tcleval: Maxima is compiled Lisp. But the maxima language is usually interpreted. Mostly because the maxima language compiler is pretty broken, and for most maxima code, compiling doesn't speed up anything. 04:36:46 rtoym: and in the case it runs on top of clisp? 04:37:01 beach: have you ever used clozure? is it any good? 04:37:20 hohoho [~hohoho@o197-222.pubnet.titech.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 04:37:37 wow - to be honest, it all sounds really confusing to me..where would be a good starting point to learn lisp (mostly CL I would think!?) from the scratch? 04:37:46 tcleval: Maxima can use clisp, ccl, cmucl, ecl, gcl, sbcl, and scl. I think it also runs with lispworks, acl, and, maybe, abcl. 04:38:33 guther: Get a book. 04:38:41 minion: tell guther about pcl 04:38:42 guther: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 04:38:43 which one? 04:39:01 guther: try Practical COmmon Lisp it is free and it is online 04:39:13 *rtoym* learned using Lisp by Winston and Horn. 04:39:16 great! Thanks! 04:39:50 ccl seems quite nice. I don't use it much, except to compile maxima. 04:42:35 rtoym: ccl? can it compile for windows too? and what does ccl stand for? 04:43:16 ccl is clozure common lisp. I'm pretty sure it runs on Windows. 04:43:45 hummm I ll check it out 04:44:05 Yep. openmcl.clozure.com has the info. (ccl was previously know as openmcl.) 04:44:57 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:46:21 Time for bed. Aloha. 04:46:26 me too 04:46:29 bye 04:46:34 -!- tcleval [~funnyguy@186.213.49.253] has left #lisp 04:48:17 RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.17.188.cable.starman.ee] has joined #lisp 04:52:29 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:53:23 ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 04:53:55 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.17.188.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 04:54:29 Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:00:23 fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:00:27 greetings 05:00:50 I was able to boot ABCL on Android earlier today 05:00:57 wai! 05:01:17 but the experience .. leaves much to be desired (or was that little?) 05:01:25 utterly not worth it 05:01:50 p_l: where have you been when I was looking for you? 05:02:04 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:02:30 wrt Android, one has to abandon all rosy imagery of a repl. it's just not ready. 05:03:02 java as is, is just not powerful enough 05:03:17 my next angle of attack would be a C lisp, using the NDK 05:04:01 fusss: I'm looking less for full standard CL, to an Android-specific Lisp made as close to CL as possible and generating DVM opcodes 05:04:19 at 8 megs, abcl is just too cumbersome. you have to accept to wait for it to boot, ~5 times, before you see the output of (lisp-implementation-type) 05:04:57 fusss: have you tried "crunching" the jar before compiling to dalvik? 05:05:04 no 05:05:07 that's how Scala guys avoid the issue 05:05:16 I wrote a background thread to load the lisp lib 05:05:24 cause they also have quite a big chunk of code to load 05:05:38 though it might not work for ABCL 05:05:55 it's just not worth it; i wanted live coding on the device, and i can hardly SMS .. 05:06:19 as for NDK, ECL *should* work when compiled as library, but you probably will have to manually compile, not use NDK for it 05:06:54 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has joined #lisp 05:06:58 i will do anything in my power to get a lisp on there, as i have more android work to keep me busy for the next 2 years 05:07:34 i really need to mess with NDK before I say anything else 05:07:50 some went the clojure route but that was dog slow a while ago 05:08:13 i used clojure on android and it was unbearable 05:08:50 I wonder if that can be fixed 05:09:09 the one thing i can think of is hacking a custom swank backend to interface with the android SDK. write apps on desktop, translate to jars + abcl and deploy. only if ABCL could be made into an android system library 05:09:50 if you didn't instantiate abcl.Interpreter, you would be fine 05:10:02 just compile CL code to straight jars; it would load and run 05:11:33 anyway 05:11:43 that's my update for the day 05:11:49 zzZZZZ 05:11:50 nite all 05:11:52 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]] 05:12:47 albino: again, investigate obfuscator tools, as they have stuff for minimalizing the size of binaries 05:16:16 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@o197-222.pubnet.titech.ac.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:16:44 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:24:20 ryaether [~ryan@173-26-124-96.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:46 kvsari [~kvsari@203.171.93.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 05:27:39 -!- Harag [~Harag@wbs-41-208-211-15.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 05:33:23 -!- nuba_ is now known as nuba 05:35:12 HET2 [~diman@cpc1-cdif12-2-0-cust125.5-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 05:35:13 sea4ever [~sea@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has joined #lisp 05:39:51 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 05:41:23 -!- setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:44:47 mega1 [~quassel@catv4E5CABA2.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #lisp 05:47:39 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:49:25 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:01:08 Good morning everyone! 06:01:32 spiaggia: morning 06:02:46 wow. I glanced at the '279 occupants' bar, and then back at the single reply and laughed. Hi. 06:05:11 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:05:26 -!- sea4ever [~sea@unaffiliated/sea4ever] has left #lisp 06:06:44 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 06:10:45 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-203-193.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:11:23 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-203-193.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:43 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-88-117.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:14:56 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 06:15:49 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-183-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:23:46 -!- ignas [~ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:27:50 spiaggia` [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 06:29:04 -!- spiaggia [~user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:53 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-98-246-165-205.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has 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[Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:18:24 djinni` [~djinni`@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 08:19:17 hello lispers 08:21:07 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:30 bozhidar [~user@212.50.14.187] has joined #lisp 08:21:54 hello 08:25:17 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.137.79.23] has quit [Quit: aceluck] 08:27:17 -!- muddyferret [~muddyferr@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: muddyferret] 08:27:43 muddyferret [~muddyferr@88.Red-80-26-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:24 hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 08:32:41 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:33:28 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 08:34:50 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:36:50 good morning 08:37:17 sharps [~user@ip-118-90-5-34.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:38:37 hello mvilleneuve 08:44:18 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441480.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:45:30 legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-46-193.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 08:47:47 -!- legumbre [~leo@r190-135-18-88.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:49:47 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441682.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:50:40 xan_ [~xan@121.141.77.209] has joined #lisp 08:53:59 -!- Krystof [~csr21@158.223.161.73] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:54:59 -!- neoesque [~neoesque@210.59.147.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:48 -!- sharps [~user@ip-118-90-5-34.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:57:29 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Quit: salva] 09:00:53 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 09:04:58 -!- symbole [~user@ool-182ffe8f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:07:03 tfb [~tfb@92.40.71.27.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:07:04 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:06 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 09:10:08 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-25.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:15:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-27-146.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:20:24 slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D6F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:31 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 09:30:01 vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:50 Good morning! 09:30:56 hola 09:33:14 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:34:19 Uhh, I love how open source lisps 1) provide executable names across platforms (even ccl has a wrapper script), and 2) allow for batch, GUI-less operation 09:34:29 Uhh, I love how open source lisps 1) provide consistent executable names across platforms (even ccl has a wrapper script), and 2) allow for batch, GUI-less operation 09:34:51 Both Franz and Lispworks fail on those points. 09:35:15 they do? 09:35:41 deepfire: They don't fail on #2 at least. 09:36:00 deepfire: Although the free version of LW does, I suppose. 09:36:02 lispworks may fail at #2 if you don't pay enough 09:36:29 open source lisp users fail annoyingly at understanding you might want to start lisp code without touching a repl 09:36:30 How do I make allegro-express.exe operate in batch mode? 09:37:44 mstevens: they do? 09:38:43 stassats`: oh, quite a while in here I wanted to run some lisp as a command line program, asked about it in here, and had a bit of a "why would you want to do such an insane thing?" conversation 09:38:45 mstevens: SBCL even lets you write #! scripts. 09:38:52 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-26-147.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:39:28 sellout: it does, I was just remembering people on this channel some considerable time ago who got a bit unpleasant when I asked how to do it. 09:40:52 mstevens: some people consider it in bad taste (: 09:41:49 maybe they know that it doesn't turn out well in some circumstances 09:41:58 I think the theory goes that if a newbie asks this, they want to use the lisp like perl or some other scripting tool, when it could be much more nicer to develop in an interactive way 09:42:12 Ok, it /appears/ as if allegro-express.exe takes -e, and it does honor -kill 09:42:30 However, "/cygdrive/c/acl82express/allegro-express.exe -e '(princ (lisp-implementation-version))'" -kill outputs nothing. 09:42:34 antifuchs: I was thinking, sure it might be nice to develop interactively, but once I'm done developing and just want to use whateveritwas. 09:42:34 did you try alisp.exe? 09:42:57 antifuchs: There is a separate, interesting point that I haven't yet grasped the repl nature and don't find them very useful 09:42:58 stassats`, there's no alisp.exe in whatever appears in the target installation directory.. 09:43:28 mstevens: people who like it tend to get passionate about this (: 09:43:33 -!- vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:43:45 stassats`, actually, the alisp -vs- allegro-express thing was my #1 complaint.. 09:44:10 mstevens: personally, I hate having to restart my lisp (for example now, debugging a terminal segfault condition, where restarting takes 2 minutes) (: 09:44:20 mstevens: when you want to get an executable, you use the provided "dump image" method 09:44:35 antifuchs: My worry/confusion is that I'll type in all my code at the repl, get the instance into a useful state, then be unable to save this code for future use 09:44:47 or, if you are testy, you can go with shebang or executable fasl 09:44:53 mstevens: have you used SLIME? 09:44:57 mstevens: if you use slime, don't type into the REPL, but use the *silme-scratch* buffer 09:44:58 mstevens: well, you don't type your code into the repl 09:45:04 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-183-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:45:07 or any of the IDEs provided with commercial lisps? 09:45:33 p_l: I have tried SLIME. The similar worry there is that I'll get the instance into odd states that don't reflect my saved code. 09:45:39 This may well be a failure to grok 09:46:09 mstevens: this is mainly a failure to grok, I believe, since Lisp and Smalltalk seem to be the only languages so oriented for such developement method 09:46:35 mstevens: no, you're right, this can be a problem. but if source and your previous image (or imagination (-:) don't sync up, you get history and you can re-trace your steps (: 09:46:53 mstevens: the idea is that you use REPL to invoke, test or explore, while you code in files and tell your IDE to to recompile the parts you edited 09:48:03 -!- DaDa` [~user@96-199.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:48:58 Well, passing -e '(with-open-file (s "foo" :direction :output) (format s "~S~%" (lisp-implementation-version)))' didn't create the file. So, it appears as if allegro-express.exe ignores -e. 09:49:52 deepfire: I think you could use a temporary ~/.clinit.cl file (: 09:50:58 Sbidicuda [~antani@host100-229-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:51:19 So, trial editions of both allegro and lispworks /do/ fail to operate in batch mode. 09:52:16 ./alisp -e "(print 10)" works fine 09:52:41 alisp does work fine on darwin, yes. 09:53:17 and on other unices, actually. 09:55:18 doesn't windows version include alisp.exe? 09:55:53 Not according to what I see. 09:58:43 oy the age old what-you-don't-have-a-lisp-image-in-your-pocket-when-you-go-on-a-date? I'm sorry, my lisp is calling my cell phone to tell me it has analyzed your physical characteristics but it has trouble with your high pitched voice 10:04:14 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-183-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:10:48 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:11:49 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:12:59 vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 10:30:56 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 10:31:54 homie [91fd03c7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.199] has joined #lisp 10:33:11 -!- simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:35:03 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-26-147.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 10:37:07 simplechat [~simplecha@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 10:37:50 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:38:46 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7546e8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:32 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:40:32 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:42:07 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:42:07 -!- tcr1 [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:47:22 nipra [~nipra@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 10:48:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:48:27 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 10:50:15 astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has joined #lisp 10:50:18 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 10:50:36 abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has joined #lisp 10:51:58 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:51:59 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has joined #lisp 10:52:55 atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #lisp 10:53:05 Yuuhi [benni@p5483BDC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:04 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:12:34 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:14:32 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.57.112] has joined #lisp 11:16:57 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 11:17:29 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:18:18 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@58.41.57.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:20:35 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.57.112] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:21:16 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@wsip-70-167-81-102.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:22:24 deepfire: I don't remember. what is the default of :if-does-not-exist? 11:22:42 Maybe that's why it did not create the file 11:22:56 Axioplase, clhs says :create, if :direction is :output.. 11:23:07 Ah, my bad. 11:26:19 G0SUB [~ghoseb@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 11:28:13 -!- homie [91fd03c7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.253.3.199] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:38:50 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:41:07 -!- tfb [~tfb@92.40.71.27.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:42:00 Demosthenes [~demo@wsip-70-167-81-102.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:01 Yay! cmucl executables work on freebsd again. 11:43:48 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-183-205.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:44:10 rtoym: Congratulations! 11:44:25 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:44:54 Thanks. Someone else did the dirty work to make them work again. 11:45:53 I was thinking my colleague might have been involved, but I think he uses NetBSD. 11:47:26 execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:48:38 -!- xan_ [~xan@121.141.77.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:48:55 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:51:15 -!- schmrkc [~marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 11:51:16 Oh. Well, cmucl supports netbsd, but I don't think the executable feature works there. It should be fairly easy to add though, if someone really wants to. Just needs gcc to support some special options and some care to make sure things get mapped correctly. 11:51:23 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:21 Hmm. Antivirus products that scan through time machine backups are kind of stupid. 11:52:48 -!- abeaumont [~abeaumont@85.48.202.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:53:17 Just being pro-active. 11:53:36 If I were an evil virus I'd like to infect time machine backups. 11:53:36 You mean post active. 11:53:48 -!- Sbidicuda [~antani@host100-229-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:53:51 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:53:55 Then when you're foolish enough to restore them ... 11:55:02 Yeah, I guess that would be a problem. It's a problem for me because the disk is 320 GB, because I had one lying around. 11:57:29 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-eanhsldhcxvouair] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:58:19 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-166-179.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:59:44 -!- gko [~gko@111.83.123.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:01:50 whit kind of viruses are there for OSX? 12:01:56 xan_ [~xan@220.118.197.183] has joined #lisp 12:02:23 jdz: onest that can actually expect the user to type his/her password to allow the virus to run... :P 12:04:20 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:39 how is that better than uac? 12:04:42 HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-125.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:05:07 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:06:24 pmd: the thing is that people actually typed their passwords to run the trojan... at that time, I could expect Windows lusers to disable UAC completely and run full admin :P 12:06:59 urandom__ [~user@p548A599F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:18 jdz: MacOSX and Linux bear the weight of Microsoft viruses. 12:09:45 jdz: you want to scan files on a MacOSX or Linux host, to avoid sending then attached to email to Microsoft systems users. 12:11:48 Before I installed a antivirus on a linux mail host, it was funny because sometimes people sent Microsoft Word documents containing viruses to our users, who modified them and send them back, along with the original virus, but without being attained by the virus since they used MacOSX... 12:13:06 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 12:13:40 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:14:00 Bronsa [~bronsa@host29-191-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:14:38 dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 12:14:45 pjb: Did the recipients complain about the senders sending viruses? 12:16:23 prima_lu` [~user@95.158.0.250] has joined #lisp 12:19:37 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:20:25 lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has joined #lisp 12:24:32 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:25:43 -!- Demosthenes [~demo@wsip-70-167-81-102.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:28:01 -!- vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:30:59 pjb: well, i can understand installing an antivirus on a mail server... 12:31:09 vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:17 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.57.43.plusnet.thn-ag3.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:41 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 12:37:11 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 12:41:02 -!- execve [~execve@ppp-81-25-57-185.ultranet.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:41:04 -!- yrgd [~yrgd@c-98-235-44-106.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:46:28 JimmyRcom [~jimmy@adsl-76-201-179-216.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:32 slash_1 [~unknown@p4FF0BDDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:28 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D6F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:49:20 p_l: i had the idea that a default osx installation doesn't have a root/admin password 12:49:54 which means that a super-user just has to confirm 12:50:43 pmd: heh, I guess the one I ended up using had one 12:50:58 pmd: you're encouraged to give it a password but you can opt not to 12:51:23 most common configuration is that password is not required for login, but is required for sudo 12:51:26 I just remember someone griping about how as helpdesk person at uni he was going to murder the next guy who came in with a recently updated OSX who got a trojan :D 12:51:37 you can have passwordless sudo but you have to go out of your way to get it 12:52:37 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host29-191-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:53:48 Bronsa [~bronsa@host209-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:53:53 -!- lolsuper_ [~super_@unaffiliated/lolsuper-/x-9881387] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:55:40 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 12:58:33 udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-iwypzrtijaglcccj] has joined #lisp 13:03:48 given the zero-day exploits history of osx, i believe most viruses target windows simply for its popularity 13:04:13 i mean, what's the fun in seeing a trojan spread to the next 3 or 4 machines in the same room and stop there? 13:04:53 coyo|pingout [~coyotama@pool-71-164-233-194.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:57 true 13:05:20 and given how long it took people to get used to limited user accounts... 13:05:41 (I don't count Win9x there, as security wasn't part of its goals) 13:06:21 it wasn't part of os9 either 13:07:39 pmd: yeah, but afaik OS9 and 10 don't share the API at all, outside of Carbon being ported to both? 13:07:50 -!- coyo [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:08:10 xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has joined #lisp 13:08:20 bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 13:08:29 p_l: what does the api have to do with security? 13:08:57 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:09:42 Or with Lisp? 13:10:03 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:17 Xach: making spyware in scheme? 13:10:53 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 13:11:35 pmd: the possibility of running malware running on both systems 13:11:43 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:11:52 *making 13:11:53 -!- xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.199.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12:27 p_l: wine takes care of that for all systems ;) 13:13:56 pmd: badly :P 13:13:58 mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has joined #lisp 13:14:08 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@89.145.84.152] has quit [Changing host] 13:14:08 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:16:07 TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has joined #lisp 13:19:50 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.59.104] has joined #lisp 13:20:04 -!- Bronsa [~bronsa@host209-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:20:19 Bronsa [~bronsa@host209-176-dynamic.244-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:21:01 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-80-125.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:21:43 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:23:38 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 13:25:00 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-dcvnshisivrzsqob] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:25:08 setheus [~setheus@cpe-70-116-140-134.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:13 -!- redline6561 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[~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:12:55 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:13:08 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 14:14:48 -!- vng [~vng@1.139.39-62.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:16:41 -!- red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has quit [Quit: red1ynx] 14:18:14 red1ynx [~Dzmitry@91.149.140.201] has joined #lisp 14:18:47 -!- sie [sie@unaffiliated/sierinjs] has quit [Quit: Brb, dianetics.] 14:22:07 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:58 antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-85-57.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:28 -!- xan_ [~xan@220.118.197.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:29:11 Is there any easy way to tell how big a blob of data is? (dataset from a database call as list-of-lists of mostly primatives) 14:29:59 walking a tree and counting stuff is not very hard, right? 14:32:15 jdz: not so hard, just was kind of hoping that with things like room around that there might be a better way I was missing 14:32:55 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:37:13 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-203-193.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:37:37 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 14:38:10 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-203-193.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:45 roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 14:40:15 well, a list of lists is not really a blob 14:40:35 (you know that "blob" means something like big large object if i recall correctly?) 14:40:53 jdz: binary large object 14:41:01 right 14:41:21 (oh, did i say "big large"?) 14:41:55 Heh :) 14:42:53 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:40 jdz: ahh sorry, was speaking more colloquially than that, sorry for the confusion 14:46:15 metasyntax` [~taylor@12.132.219.7] has joined #lisp 14:48:04 silenius [~silenus@p4FC23B97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:32 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 14:52:11 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:56:24 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:56:42 -!- G0SUB [~ghoseb@121.243.225.226] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 15:07:43 -!- udzinari [~user@nat/ibm/x-iwypzrtijaglcccj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08:55 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-78-36-166-179.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:10:22 postamar [~postamar@x-132-204-248-86.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:11:55 -!- ikki [~ikki@200.95.162.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:12:30 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-211-209.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:13:24 Fare 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has joined #lisp 15:29:22 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:29:32 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:50 Yuuhi` [benni@p5483B9D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:37 -!- lusory [~bart@bb220-255-244-226.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:31:36 -!- Yuuhi [benni@p5483BDC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:35:09 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 15:35:36 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@212.66.226.129] has quit [Quit: Bye bye ppl] 15:36:17 lusory [~bart@bb121-6-159-78.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:39:56 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:40:33 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-95-53-211-209.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:28 jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:43:00 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:50:32 -!- jdz [~jdz@193.206.22.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:53:42 bobbysmith007: One kludgy way is to do it: (progn (sb-ext:gc :full t) (room t) (setq *blob* (allocate-the-blob)) (sb-ext:gc :full t) (room t) 15:54:05 -!- ohih0wru [~andrei@78.84.161.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:54:24 if allocate-the-blob does not produce lots of intermediate garbage, just using TIME might be enough 15:56:04 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 15:56:17 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:56:32 cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has joined #lisp 15:56:59 -!- cinch [~cinch@unaffiliated/cinch] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:58:18 profile allocate-the-blob 15:59:01 chandler [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has joined #lisp 16:01:48 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC23B97.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:48 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16:32:19 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-70-71.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:33:16 -!- roygbiv [~None@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 16:33:16 pmd: there was an interesting analysis done on when you can expect a explosion of malware for OS X 16:33:21 using game theory 16:33:57 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:34:28 basically, as long as Apple keeps slowly but steadily improving security compared to Windows or Linux, and as long as the total population of US and world is less than 20-25% or so 16:34:42 there's unlikely to be a lot. 16:35:04 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:35:44 *total population of Macs as a percentage of total PC population. 16:36:01 Adamant: i don't believe osx has improved security over windows or linux 16:36:21 pmd: it doesn't have improved OVER either. 16:36:38 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:36:43 it has improved security in the Leopard and Snow Leopard releases 16:36:52 -!- mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:36:59 How 'bout that asdf2! 16:37:01 *it hasn't improved OVER either 16:37:13 mattrepl [~mattrepl@208.78.149.14] has joined #lisp 16:37:23 pmd: it's arguably somewhat less vulnerable to social engineering 'click on this thing that isn't an executable, I promise' 16:37:25 yup, sorry aboot that 16:38:01 Adamant: that's ok, i'm not a native english speaker, it's good to learn these things :) 16:38:29 pmd: I'm a bit sleep-depped right now 16:38:37 rsynnott: i don't believe that. you can just run something in osx that installs itself to Applications or Libraries without notice 16:39:05 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:39:05 it doesn't have to run from Applications or Libraries, anyway. 16:39:11 rsynnott: and about exploits, they're not so subject to social engineering 16:39:45 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:43 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 16:41:02 scioto [~user@dhcp-128-146-146-65.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 16:41:26 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:42:16 pmd: OS X does a OK job of tagging potentially executable content and requiring a "do you really want to run a program" dialog on first use. 16:42:27 serious threats come from remote exploits 16:42:50 Adamant: is that something of safari? 16:43:00 pmd: no, it's OS-based. 16:43:08 works for all Mac browser IIRC 16:43:29 benny` [~user@i577A250C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:43:31 booyaa [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:41 of course, since HTML pages contain executable Javascript 16:43:47 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 16:44:02 they also get that bit, which tends to annoy some people 16:44:27 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@unaffiliated/stattrav] has quit [Quit: bye!] 16:45:08 -!- benny [~user@i577A2C27.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:46:20 -!- benny` is now known as benny 16:46:54 -!- antivigilante [~antivigil@174-26-85-57.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:55 Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 16:48:15 -!- Xof [~crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:48:20 Xof [~crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:48:45 -!- Xof [~crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:50 Xof [~crhodes@dunstaple.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:50:21 -!- booyaa [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:50:58 -!- hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279441682.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:51:19 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:55:27 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:56:22 hugod [~hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279634293.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:56:52 Draggor [~Draggor@adsl-99-142-89-25.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:55 Adamant: i don't understand what you're saying: tagged html files handled by the os? 16:57:42 Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has joined #lisp 16:58:05 pmd: because HTML files contain executable Javascript, the OS tags the file internally as an executable file (not Unix executable permissions) 16:58:29 and displays that dialog box on first execution after download 16:58:33 it's also worth noting that when you download a file in Safari, it will never, in itself, be executable 16:59:03 (if it's a plain executable, it will not have the executable bit set; if it's a MacOS application it will be within a zip or dmg or something) 16:59:53 Adamant: windows browsers also tag files in meta-data (actually, an alternative stream for the file in NTFS), but it's only handled by the shell (eg. explorer and shell* api) 17:00:45 rsynnott: ok, but you just double-click to mount it (dmg). mount! isn't that dangerous? 17:01:34 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 17:02:03 -!- TheEnd2012 [~TheEnd201@65.196.40.254] has quit [Quit: TheEnd2012] 17:02:14 not particularly. 17:02:17 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-14641.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:19 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-70-71.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:07:56 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 17:07:56 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 17:07:56 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 17:13:32 -!- scioto [~user@dhcp-128-146-146-65.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has left #lisp 17:14:55 potatishandlarn [potatishan@c-7f8c72d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:18:53 -!- tcr 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18:27:47 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28:37 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [] 18:32:03 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 18:33:58 maden [~maden@198.168.103.254] has joined #lisp 18:35:42 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 18:38:01 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:24 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-233.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:41:02 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:02 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-233.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:30 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-233.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 18:46:37 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-130-200.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:31 moah [~gnu@178.1.121.134] has joined #lisp 18:49:03 rtoym: yes, the recipient complained. I had to trace the history of the attachment to show them the viruses came from themselves! :-) But we installed the antivirus nonetheless, it was better for the image of the organization, even if it was basically immune itself (using only MacOSX and Linux). 18:53:06 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:54:04 daniel_ [~daniel@p5B32754F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:18 pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-49-182.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:57:13 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5B326F4A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:57:13 milanj [~milanj_@109-93-32-212.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 19:02:33 loomer [~loomer@unaffiliated/loomer] has joined #lisp 19:04:25 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:07:50 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Quit: rich_holygoat] 19:09:01 -!- prima_lux [~user@95.158.0.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:10:58 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-233.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:02 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-233.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 19:16:44 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:44 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:16:44 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 19:21:47 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.59.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-22-14.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 19:22:59 uhhhh 19:24:16 nvm 19:25:00 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-223-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:25:00 wbooze [~user@xdsl-78-34-223-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:26:39 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-233.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 19:29:43 -!- ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:30:17 ASau [~user@83.69.227.32] has joined #lisp 19:31:28 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:34:23 Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-233.wireless.sfu.ca] has joined #lisp 19:35:37 tcr [~tcr@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:42 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 19:39:19 sugarshark [~ole@p4FDA8514.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:39:35 uh 19:40:22 what ? 19:40:34 how do I have a loop iterate a number up, but not stop at any particular number? 19:40:37 with amirite? 19:43:50 (loop for i from (random 100( until (zerop (rem i 10)) do (print i)) 19:44:44 nevermind 19:44:53 I found the most simplest answer to euler #5 19:44:59 http://projecteuler.net/index.php?section=problems&id=5 19:45:05 (apply #'lcm (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect i)) --> 2520 19:45:07 err 19:45:12 (apply #'lcm (loop for i from 1 to 20 collect i)) --> 232792560 19:45:57 -!- moah [~gnu@178.1.121.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:46:38 not the most efficient solution 19:47:28 use reduce, not apply 19:48:13 Fare: meh 19:48:21 it's quite lulzy that it's one line of code 19:48:32 normally it takes robust algorithms 19:50:15 nah, most of the J solutions to project euler problems are one-liners ;-) 19:50:35 haskell has real efficient euler problems 19:50:48 haskell is the superior language for euler, imop 19:50:49 imo* 19:51:05 foldr1 lcm [1..20] 19:53:14 Kaer [~b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:53:15 -!- Kae [b@c-cfcee253.97-16-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:54:35 zc00gii: alexandria has IOTA. 19:59:00 -!- Athas [~athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:59:52 new-lisper [c95339ea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.201.83.57.234] has joined #lisp 19:59:56 collect-fn in series is another nice way to do it 20:03:03 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:03:49 zc00gii: (loop for i from 0 do (print i)) ; wont' stop at any particular number, not even a random one. 20:03:53 I have a problem, and I think it has to do with scope 20:05:17 new-lisper: It's good you think that, because with what you said so far, we can't think of anything. 20:05:55 http://paste.lisp.org/+2G8O 20:05:58 here 20:06:23 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:06:37 i plan first to get code running, and then optimize the factorial 20:06:37 You didn't define any function callde my-function. 20:06:37 two times bound 20:06:48 not special i 20:06:50 pjb: he's treating it as a lisp-1 20:06:59 my-function is a lexical variable. 20:07:06 sykopomp: I know, I want him to realize it. 20:07:12 oh 20:07:25 pjb: sorry :) 20:07:33 new-lisper: To call a function bound to a variable, you can use APPLY or FUNCALL. 20:07:41 ok 20:07:57 new-lisper: (or pass the function to some other function that do, such as MAPCAR). 20:08:11 i use to program in ruby, so i thought i could do it as i can do in ruby 20:08:45 forget about blub 20:08:53 lisp is different... 20:08:55 ok, thank you 20:09:06 new-lisper: Being a lisp-2 allow us to write (defun f (list) (list list list)) and (f 2). 20:09:43 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:39 hmm, i have been reading this article for a while 20:11:11 new-lisper: have a look at http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 20:11:15 or even: (defmacro LET (LET) (LET ((LET '`(LET ((LET ',LET)) ,LET))) `(LET ((LET ',LET)) ,LET))) 20:12:02 Doesn't make me proud :-) 20:12:12 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-77-34.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:13:27 Nshag [~none@AClermont-Ferrand-551-1-124-45.w92-150.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:13:31 Blkt [~user@net-93-146-149-37.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp 20:13:58 good evening everyone 20:14:04 good evening 20:14:23 hullo 20:17:22 -!- maden [~maden@198.168.103.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@91.78.231.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:24:24 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:30:58 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:32:03 sdsds [~sdsds@dyn-16.sub2.cmts01.cable.TORON10.iasl.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:00 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:13 Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-70-71.iburst.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:35:18 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 20:40:02 dlowe: do I want to know? 20:40:32 Ralith: it's just a funny 20:41:32 A realworld case: (let ((pathname (pathname pathname))) ...) 20:43:09 or: (let ((string (string string))) ...) ; it's classic. 20:43:58 lisp has scopes? 20:44:04 yes, a lot. 20:44:35 how do I pass a variable through one scope without using global variables? 20:44:57 "passing a variable" is meaningless. 20:45:30 I mean, thinking of scopes as gates 20:45:47 like scope gates 20:45:56 There is the lexical scopes, the dynamic scopes. 20:45:57 new-lisper: scope is compile-time resolution of names 20:46:58 yes, but how can I use a variable from one scope in another scope? 20:47:12 new-lisper: It's answering the question, "Where does this identifier belong to?" 20:47:49 new-lisper: A variable exists only in its scope; you cannot use a variable outside its scope 20:48:03 new-lisper: you can, however, use the content of a variable outside the variable's scope 20:48:19 oh, that is what i mean 20:48:35 See how it's important to say what you mean! 20:48:50 ok, sorry 20:48:55 -!- legumbre_ [~leo@r190-135-46-193.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:49:19 new-lisper: now, there's a way to actually use a variable outside of it's scope, as long as its scope exists. This is done by way of closures. 20:49:46 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@203.202.52.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:51:01 how do I use closures in lisp (especifically common lisp) 20:51:27 i think now i am getting it 20:51:32 See for example: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/63b8eb7ee001c7b8 20:51:44 francogrex [~user@109.130.94.182] has joined #lisp 20:52:31 The point of closures is to catch part of a lexical scope, and to export it enclosed in a value (closures are function values). 20:52:54 legumbre [~leo@r190-135-46-207.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 20:53:33 you mean using let? 20:55:38 yeah a lambda created within a let expression will carry with it the variables defined in the let 20:55:47 (and things outside it too) 20:55:52 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp 20:55:59 Hello 20:58:00 hello 20:58:07 so let picks up all bindings outside of itself and then defines new bindings inside of itself 20:58:16 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:58:41 atomx` [~user@93.112.81.240] has joined #lisp 20:59:41 Hi Sikander 21:01:11 hohum_ [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:28 so when i close a let i cannot access things that are inside of a let? 21:01:51 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw229253.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:01:53 -!- felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:01:53 -!- hohum [dcorbe@apollo.corbe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:01:53 -!- bfein [~morik@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:01:55 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:01:56 -!- turbo24prg [~turbo24pr@turbolent.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:02:36 new-lisper: yes and no. 21:02:57 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:02:57 -!- talyz [~user@ip35.tunnan.riksnet.nu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:02:57 -!- Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.254.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:02:59 -!- fmu` [root@an9iex1i.u10r.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:03:00 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.254.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:08 *new-lisper* goes out to pick up his little brother at school and will be back within ten minutes 21:03:10 -!- aceluck [~aceluck@175.137.79.23] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:03:10 *new-lisper* will read the answers (if any) afterwards 21:03:10 bye 21:03:14 -!- dose [~dose@offyourtrol.li] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:03:14 -!- pkhuong_ [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:03:22 pkhuong [~pkhuong@gravelga.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:31 new-lisper: you can have bindings 'escape' their scope through closures, but you can't simply refer to the variables in code that comes after the LET's body. 21:03:32 I once used a function or a macro that could display the content of a file in the repl (not stream but the whole file at once). I can't recall what it was. Any ideas? 21:03:32 is this a closure: (let ((x 1)) (defun add (val) (setf x (+ x val)))) ? 21:03:33 dialtone_ [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 21:03:33 -!- dialtone_ [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 21:03:33 dialtone_ [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 21:03:34 bfein [~morik@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 21:03:34 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:44 dose [~dose@offyourtrol.li] has joined #lisp 21:03:50 francogrex: yup. 21:03:52 -!- pkhuong is now known as Guest1700 21:04:03 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:04:26 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:04:26 -!- Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-33-23.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:04:45 new-lisper: Like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/114363 21:04:46 kehoea [~aidan@cl-372.ede-01.nl.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:46 hello! 21:04:46 Hi! 21:04:46 in calls to #'member, should values for the :test key take precedence over values for the :test-not keyword? 21:04:46 or should the first specified win? 21:04:46 OK, on further reading it seems no-one really knows, and that's why :test-not was deprecated. 21:04:46 kehoea: you should rather NOT use both :test and :test-not. 21:04:46 Deprecated notes can mostly be ignored. 21:04:46 or *always* use both :test and :test-not, just to make sure. :) 21:04:51 pjb, I'm not *using* them, I'm implementing #'member 21:04:54 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:59 turbo24p1g [~turbo24pr@turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:59 francogrex: I've seen a pattern in a couple of places (notably AMOP) with code like the following: (let ((table (make-hash-table))) (defun foo (name) (gethash name table)) (defun (setf foo) (val name) (setf (gethash name table) val))) 21:04:59 new-lisper: let makes lexical bindings. So when you are outside of the lexical scope, the binding does not exist. 21:05:03 sykopomp: actually, there's no way to tell in that case... if theres a (defvar x) somewhere, francogrex's form does not create a closure :P 21:05:16 fmu [root@unaffiliated/fmu] has joined #lisp 21:05:22 drewc: Oh c'mon :P 21:05:25 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.59.104] has joined #lisp 21:05:35 *drewc* cues his rant on special variables .... :P 21:05:38 Salamander [~Salamande@ppp121-45-33-23.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:39 kehoea: oh. 21:05:40 it doesn't have *earmuffs*, so it's clearly a lexical variable! ;) 21:05:44 LiamH: Hi 21:06:07 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 21:06:23 Sikander: sorry I missed you over the weekend; I think I stepped away from the computer exactly when you were on and vice versa. 21:06:26 kehoea: The consequences are unspecified if both a :test and a :test-not argument are supplied in the same call to F. ; you can do as you want. 21:06:42 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm 21:07:04 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-132-22-14.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:07:05 drewc: I ordered Keene's book yesterday. Does it talk a lot about designing a protocol-based program? 21:07:29 I know AMOP at least covers designing programs that way. 21:07:38 sykopomp: I don't think you'll get anything out of it 21:07:44 (I'm still bumbling with this new thing I have no idea how to do) 21:07:45 sykopomp: it does, although not quite to the extent that amop does. 21:08:03 LiamH: No problem. I'm working on the tests, and in the process doing some minor rewriting some things in example.lisp. 21:08:16 -!- kehoea [~aidan@cl-372.ede-01.nl.sixxs.net] has left #lisp 21:08:33 Sikander: OK, good. 21:08:43 my latest bumbling involves creating lots of small packages. Some with generic functions, others with 'sample implementations'. Not working as well as I'd like :( 21:09:33 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10:23 *tcr* <3 hierarchical packages 21:10:39 tcr: what do you use for those? 21:10:52 sykosomatic.db.document.chillax is starting to get a little long ;) 21:11:35 sykopomp: you might want to look at haskell or something that has interfaces, which are basically protocols without the objects the specialize on. 21:11:55 I'd love to have them in sbcl; cmucl has them, ecl, too; in our case we just don't care for collision of package names 21:12:16 drewc: I'm somewhat familiar with type classes. That is basically how I'm designing things. It's not quite working for me, because I end up with a lot of code that defines some abstract interface, and nothing implementing it :\ 21:12:28 because it's all us, and third party code usually chooses weird or long names 21:12:39 drewc: I assume that's what you're referring to by 'interfaces' 21:12:49 i usually implement it first, then derive the protocol from the specification i just created 21:12:55 yeah, that's what i meant. 21:13:22 I think in my passionate attempts to make everything protocol-based, I started writing the protocol first. That's probably why it's gotten so frustrating :( 21:15:00 it seemed hard to derive my protocol from my existing code. I'll give that another shot, I guess :) 21:15:05 well, it's not black or white... i'll often start with the toplevel defgenerics, but as many times i start with a defstruct + defuns 21:15:07 -!- urandom__ [~user@p548A599F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:16:17 drewc: defstruct seems quite nice for that now that I think about it. My protocol functions usually end up being named object-type-something (account-name, client-ip-address, etc) 21:16:27 -!- stokachu [~user@nat/redhat/x-cdmxztwsqupoqdur] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17:43 not all problems require a full blown CLOS-y protocol either... often a few defuns and a data structure is enough. 21:18:28 true 21:18:42 in this case, I _do_ want a relatively large and extensible program with various interconnected components. 21:18:46 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@79-84-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:19:00 (and I'm also trying to learn how to do this) 21:19:32 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:19:32 are you sure you wouldn't prefer a bunch of small independent components and some glue code? :D 21:19:34 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 21:20:09 drewc: by glue code, you mean a glue protocol? ;) 21:20:16 isn't that what it ends up being? 21:20:47 and in a way, I'm already using a bunch of small independent components. This particular project has quite a few library dependencies. 21:20:51 no, the protocols are exported from the components, the application just glues them together with a few extensions. it amounts to the same thing, but it's bottom-up vs top-down 21:21:33 I think I see what you mean. I'm not sure if it applies to this. 21:21:51 well, anymore than I'm already making it apply, I guess. 21:22:13 I'm trying to make the different protocols (and parts of their implementations) essentially stand-alone chunks. 21:22:40 but I also have kind of a 'big boss' object that a lot of things try to dispatch on to customize behavior in some cases, or get access to certain global data. 21:22:49 i'll often have four packages for any given 'component' : implementation, api, syntax and the one that exports the parts from each of those to make it a useful component. 21:23:15 *new-lisper* is back 21:23:18 syntax? So you keep a separate package for just macros? 21:23:22 Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has joined #lisp 21:23:37 yeah, -syntax only touches things in -api 21:23:47 and -api sticks to -implementation 21:23:58 sometimes you can even get away with doing this: (defconstant x 5) (let ((x 1)) (defun add (val) (setf x (+ x val)))) 21:24:02 so -syntax is the programmer interface, api the programmatic interface, in CLOS terms? 21:24:23 yes, essentially. 21:24:32 interesting. 21:25:01 using lots of little packages (one per file in some code) really helps to seperate those concerns like 21:25:23 -!- booyaa [~booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-253.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:25:38 also, this is great for reusable code 21:25:46 drewc: I've found it a little bit confusing. That's possibly because I haven't found a way to organize them in a contextual/consistent way yet. 21:27:31 that comes back to thinking in terms of protocols between packages i suppose. 21:27:41 yeah 21:28:05 honestly, this is starting to make me wish there were a pylang/haskell-like module system available for CL. 21:28:18 not sure if that means I'm thinking about things wrong 21:28:48 -!- Harag [~Harag@iburst-41-213-70-71.iburst.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:14 -!- Ralith [~ralith@d142-058-094-233.wireless.sfu.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:30:24 Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:35 possibly.. i have no idea how you're thinking about things, so i can't be the judge of that :) 21:32:18 well, I mean, doesn't designing things this way strongly lean towards being able to: 1. have local aliases for symbols and packages (import foo from x as bar), 2. To have a file-based module system (file loading + packages merged together) 21:32:25 -!- pdo_ [~pdo@dyn-62-56-49-182.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:32:56 as opposed to having a (somewhat awkward-feeling) back-and-forth between ASDF, the package names, and the filenames themselves... 21:33:11 ok, you are thinking about things wrong then 21:33:26 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 21:33:47 packages have nothing to do with files or systems/modules beyond the fact that sometimes their definitions are stored thereing 21:33:48 therein 21:33:52 right 21:33:59 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:34:09 packages are about symbol visibility, period. 21:34:30 i've got files that have 3-4 packages declared in them, for that matter. 21:34:48 but you also talked about having protocols between packages. 21:34:49 i'll use packages as a sort of hash table sometimes 21:35:06 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:16 yes, but this has nothing to do with how code is loaded. 21:35:51 and local aliases are something i do all the time, only i do it explicitly... 21:36:09 (defun bar () (foo:x)) 21:36:40 although, it's never that simple, because why rename something arbitrarily 21:36:46 drewc: what about classes? 21:36:58 what about them? 21:37:08 nevermind 21:37:16 one reason why package aliases would be convenient, though... 21:37:43 you could have a very verbosely-named package with some symbols naming genfuns in them... 21:38:02 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:38:04 my.project.account -> alias to account -> (account:name something) 21:39:00 drewc: renaming things locally can be useful for things like conflict resolution, or for using more convenient names that fit your _local_ stuff a little better. 21:39:02 package local aliases, yes. i have some code that does something like that actually. 21:39:07 -!- Cowmoo [~Cowmoo@cambridge-vxty.basistech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:25 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@pool-108-7-68-199.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 21:39:35 drewc: really local? How do you manage that? 21:39:40 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-203-193.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:40:35 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-203-193.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:28 well, it's a special case (implementing monads using packages as the interface), but i basically just do something that expands to (flet ((account:name (&rest args) (apply #'my.project.account args))) (account:name)) 21:42:33 how is the account package created?... 21:42:46 via defpackage :( 21:42:52 :( 21:42:58 well, via define-package-class 21:44:18 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: kclifton] 21:44:24 (define-package-class monad () (bind result)) (define-package-instance monad.identity (monad)) 21:45:27 huh. How do you use this? 21:45:36 then (defun monad.identity:bind (M f) (funcall f M)) and (defun monad.identity:result (x) x) etc 21:45:36 so your monads are... packages? 21:45:47 goodness, they are. 21:45:49 yes 21:46:02 "monackages" 21:46:08 what does your 'do' look like? 21:46:16 (and can I ask for a macroexpansion?) 21:46:31 MLET* and PROGM rather than DO 21:47:55 what do those look like? 21:49:47 mlet* looks like LET*, PROGM looks like PROGN, of course. wrapped in the neccesary (with-package-instance ...) 21:50:41 -!- slash_1 [~unknown@p4FF0BDDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:51:06 goodness. 21:51:35 I don't really understand why you chose to use packages for this. Not that I think there's anything wrong with doing so. 21:51:40 -!- k2t0f12d [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:52:00 katofiad [~k2t0f12d@121.98.185.20] has joined #lisp 21:52:58 well, because i wanted the static-ness of them 21:53:23 the other way is to pass around the interface at run time... i've done that, this was an experiment in the other direction. 21:53:57 (and the start of some further experiments in type inference etc) 21:54:23 Sorry for the intromission, but I have got my code to work! 21:54:39 Thanks to all of you! 21:56:46 sykopomp: i'm not sure i'd use the technique outside of such experiments, there are some big advantages to interface-passing style ala Fare, and i don't mind the extra verbosity. 21:57:13 I should reread that blog post :) 21:57:20 does anyone have the link handy? 21:57:43 http://fare.livejournal.com/tag/interface-passing%20style 21:58:13 i've also used contextl's layered functions to pass the interface, and also a simple special variable. 21:58:37 but interface-passing style is, i think, my prefered technique in CL 21:58:48 (this opinion subject to change without notice) 21:59:35 drewc: I'm going that way too... except that I'm thinking of writing a dedicated single-dispatch system instead of relying on full-blown gfs. 22:00:01 -!- Guest1700 is now known as pkhuong_ 22:01:22 hrm, that's an interesting thought... i mean, one can always pass through to a GF if one needs the extensibility, but there's a part of my that rejects the idea outright 22:01:34 it would be simpler though. 22:02:30 pkhuong_: what advantages can you cite for the dedicated approach? 22:02:44 *drewc* hadn't even considered it really 22:03:29 sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:08 mk2 [~user@evanspc2.rai.umds.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:04:20 i mean really.. what do i need full blown generic functions for anyway when it's the interface that i want to dispatch on... 22:04:42 sounds a lot like do-foo-using-bar 22:04:46 *drewc* opens his monad/interface directory for the long time in while 22:05:38 there's the obvious advantage that it's easier to compile, and you get to add the invariants you need. But I'm mostly interested because it makes it easier to pattern match on the interface (e.g. to specialise (foo bar baz), but also for patterns like (foo bar bar)), and to insert arbitrary code to check complex properties at instantiation-time. 22:05:38 pkhuong_, memo from angavrilov: How would you comment on this dumb monkey translation from C re SSE usage? http://github.com/angavrilov/ecl-sse/blob/master/contrib/x86-sse/test-sfmt.lisp 22:06:09 of course, pattern matching 22:06:11 angavrilov: some of it seems a bit close to the original, but, overall, fine. 22:06:45 drewc: and singleton classes seem more natural that way. 22:07:32 -!- Athas [~athas@82.211.209.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:48 -!- Draigh [Nothingman@53.168.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [] 22:07:49 oh yeah, and pattern matching + singleton classes lead to code generation, to compile late-binding as early as possible. 22:08:22 *drewc* comments again that pkhuong_ is always a few steps ahead of him 22:08:32 it's an east-coast thing. 22:08:39 bloody times zones 22:08:45 time zones* 22:08:58 my type to sense ratio is not doing so well... time for coffee 22:09:03 typo* 22:09:10 *drewc* looks on in frustration 22:09:20 drewc: dvorak? 22:09:56 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.57.43.plusnet.thn-ag3.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:09:58 qwerty, just like i've used for 25+ years or so :/ 22:10:17 :\ 22:11:05 I feel like I just missed out on something that I could have learned a lot about because I'm still trying to process the implications of interface-passing. 22:12:52 sykopomp: well, i look at it this way: somewhere along the line the dynamic language community became the one that had to manually annotate types :) 22:13:04 -!- b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.59.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:13:27 heh :P 22:14:21 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.59.104] has joined #lisp 22:14:31 I'm thinking of how this interface stuff would be applied. I guess I don't understand things like parametric polymorphism well enough. 22:15:03 sykopomp: read the code in fare-utils, it's pretty obvious (and a great example of protocols) 22:15:24 I'm slowly working my way through this, yeah :) 22:15:33 thank you for the help, by the way 22:16:04 *drewc* always aims to help, even when he's being a brute about it 22:16:06 #lisp consistently reminds me that I'll have plenty to learn for the next few years (and forevermore after...) 22:17:06 sykopomp: i've been coming here going on 7 years now, and i stil experience that. Not as often these days, but often enough to stay humble about it 22:17:46 lisp is big, and since it's the giant mudball of strength , it's always getting bigger :) 22:18:32 -!- LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:19:32 silenius [~silenus@p4FC23B97.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:33 -!- Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:19:46 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:21:58 ShereKahn [~user@174.67-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:22:44 lisppaste: url? 22:23:46 -!- _s1gma [~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131] has quit [Quit: irl ragequit] 22:24:16 -!- bozhidar` [~user@93-152-185-88.ddns.onlinedirect.bg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:32 blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-45763541.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:17 -!- ShereKahn [~user@174.67-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:31:43 -!- postamar 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