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seconds] 02:41:23 HarryS [H@harry.lu] has joined #lisp 02:43:28 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-134-38.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:43:46 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118.92.134.38] has joined #lisp 02:44:41 -!- koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 02:44:50 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 02:48:00 -!- HarryS [H@harry.lu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:48:56 pkhuong, also, how good is the fink way of getting sbcl? 02:49:13 Is sbcl even in fink? 02:49:23 Yes, in the unstable/main tree 02:50:00 -!- rme [rme@clozure-76DCBA1F.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 02:50:00 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-116-106.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 02:50:04 For most Linux software, you can rely on fink not having it, macports having an outdated version that doesn't work, and the manual installation procedure breaking your system. 02:50:19 gko [~gko@111.82.70.227] has joined #lisp 02:50:26 Along with clisp, actually. 02:51:23 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@190.97.60.246] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 02:51:26 Makoryu, fink unstable flaunted 10+k packages before my nose, IIRC.. 02:51:28 deepfire: I don't use packages for SBCL. 02:52:46 pkhuong_, ouch, should have guessed. But the question is more like whether you maybe heard good/bad things about it.. 02:57:22 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:57:47 gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-129.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:16 rich_holygoat_ [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:00:16 -!- rich_holygoat_ [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:00:16 rich_holygoat_ [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 03:02:13 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:02:37 koollman [~samson_t@ns301422.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:54 -!- Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Quit: Adamant] 03:03:17 pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:21 -!- pizzledizzle [~pizdets@pool-96-250-215-244.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:26 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:58 tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:11 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:04:11 -!- rich_holygoat_ is now known as rich_holygoat 03:09:33 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-116-43.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 03:09:34 Tristam [~Tristam@cpe-67-242-194-233.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:03 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722150226]] 03:11:26 HarryS [H@harry.lu] has joined #lisp 03:11:34 spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ejzmndmsxkkmsdcu] has joined #lisp 03:17:13 timchen1` [tim@163.16.211.21] has joined #lisp 03:17:20 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 03:17:22 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:17:26 -!- HarryS [H@harry.lu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:24:58 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-22-199-91.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:28:25 -!- jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:32:21 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118.92.134.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:37:01 mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cbzfpiavkhbsuwpd] has joined #lisp 03:37:40 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:40:47 -!- nils___ [~nils@wsip-70-165-18-98.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:40:51 -!- tritchey [~tritchey@c-98-226-81-194.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: tritchey] 03:40:59 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 03:41:23 HarryS [H@harry.lu] has joined #lisp 03:42:03 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:43:19 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-116-106.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:36 -!- HarryS [H@harry.lu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:49:04 Guest44646 [ae100a65@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.16.10.101] has joined #lisp 03:49:40 -!- Guest44646 [ae100a65@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.16.10.101] has left #lisp 03:49:48 ToGgG__son [~Shiva@78.232.196.19] has joined #lisp 03:56:09 -!- fjellfras [~fjellfras@123.236.183.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59:01 Good morning everyone! 04:00:31 *ToGgG__son* sorry for this mais .... obligé car elle chante la vie et la mort est la mais ne la cherchez pas ! http://keny-arkana.com/desobeissance/ 04:01:44 l'autorité a été tuée .... ils n'ont pas bien gardé la boite en cristal :s quel dommage du coup tout le monde tous les mondes en ont profité.. 04:02:21 Zhivago: You there? Can you kick this one? 04:03:09 tankrim` [~user@h-109-228-186-171.NA.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 04:03:35 -!- tankrim [~user@pdpc/supporter/active/tankrim] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:03:39 sorry for french, they killed Gods and the pandora cristal box is open, and money to money time to time time is money money is time and all people of the world has won money with our times.... 04:04:08 Adamant [~Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:05:13 -!- Zhivago has set mode +o Zhivago 04:05:39 -!- Zhivago has set mode +q ToGgG__son!*@* 04:05:52 Zhivago: Thanks! 04:05:54 Being sorry for the French is not sufficient. 04:06:06 Why don't you have ops, btw? 04:06:08 *rich_holygoat* puts on earmuffs 04:06:26 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 04:06:32 Zhivago: Probably because I never bother to learn how to use such privileges. 04:08:29 Okay, I'm interviewing Richard Gabriel tomorrow for my ILC talk. Anyone have anything they want to know about the Common Lisp design and standardization process? 04:09:09 Ask him what people should do to make it suck less. 04:09:09 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:09:30 Yeah, well, that's sort of the overarching theme. 04:09:39 mjonsson_ [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:09:45 And if you're bored, you could ask about type upgrading. 04:10:06 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 04:10:07 Presumably it's just due to predating clos. 04:10:22 But it might be slightly more interesting. 04:11:25 type upgrading? 04:11:28 HarryS [H@harry.lu] has joined #lisp 04:12:12 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/hyperspec/HyperSpec/Body/sec_15-1-2-1.html 04:13:18 And why bignum and fixnum are types rather than classes. 04:13:45 I mean, it's almost like they got that completely backward there. 04:14:28 Yeah. 04:14:42 Also things like the supertype relationships of floats. 04:14:58 Why the type system in these areas is expressing local class choices. 04:15:28 I presume that it's due to retrofitting, but it would be interesting to know if there was a good reason for it. 04:15:39 JohnnyL [~excellent@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:40 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:16:12 is it possible to make somewhat reasonably sized fully functional stateless lisp programs? 04:16:40 johnny: Yes, but it's also possible to dance about with 12 fish stacked on your head. 04:16:48 -!- JohnnyL [~excellent@ool-18b87a54.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 04:17:28 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 04:17:33 hah 04:17:39 -!- HarryS [H@harry.lu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17:41 well, that was quick 04:17:57 He wanted to run try the fish thing. 04:24:57 kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has joined #lisp 04:27:47 I need to do something like (setf (funcall ...) obj). Can anyone give an idea? 04:28:41 See the last bit of http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_abe.htm 04:28:48 Maybe that helps. 04:29:28 Thank you gigamonkey. 04:31:06 No prob. 04:33:01 -!- mjonsson_ [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:33:25 -!- rme [rme@clozure-76DCBA1F.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:33:25 -!- rme [~rme@pool-70-105-116-106.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: rme] 04:33:37 adu [~ajr@pool-173-66-0-198.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:39:18 -!- gko [~gko@111.82.70.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:40:43 Heh. It's interesting reading archives of the early CL design discussions and realizing that the Lisp elders such as Steel, Gabriel, and Fahlman were in their late 20s and early 30s. 04:41:32 HarryS [H@harry.lu] has joined #lisp 04:41:56 You mean they were older? or younger? 04:42:11 manuel_ [~manuel_@p54B8B4D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:22 Back in the day people were generally younger. 04:42:29 Heh! 04:42:32 -!- manuel_ [~manuel_@p54B8B4D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:43:08 kenjin2201: what Zhivago said. We think of them as elder statesmen now but when they were designing CL they were just kids, more or less. 04:45:25 -!- fusss [~chatzilla@cpe-184-59-202-37.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:47:22 -!- HarryS [H@harry.lu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:50:29 Phoodus [foo@174-17-96-76.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:51 It seems strange sometimes, when they are really great people and all 04:51:45 John McCarthy was 29 when he discovered LISP. 04:52:22 "Discovered" sounds interesting. 04:52:42 -!- weirdo [sthalik@c146-20.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:52:51 weirdo [sthalik@c146-20.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 04:52:53 Well, lisp is pretty simple -- if not he then someone else. 04:53:55 Zhivago: My point was that he wasn't 55. 04:54:35 If it had been someone else, it would have been someone as young or younger. 04:54:43 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:53 pjb: At 55 he would have been so swamped with admin tasks and meetings that he would not have the time to even give it a thought. 04:55:00 Zhivago // It apply to everything, "if not he then someone else" but only the delay matters 04:55:10 beach: exactly! :-) 04:55:29 kenjin: No. 04:55:56 kenjin: Each piece of driftwood on a beach is unique, probably over the whole of time and space. 04:56:15 kenjin: "If not he, then someone else" only applies to fundamentally simple things. 04:58:00 Or perhaps the "mona lisa" would be a nicer example. 04:59:31 Maybe I was not so accurate. 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I'm using clsql-sqlite3 with sbcl, and I'm trying to use auto-increment primary keys. 06:41:47 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 06:42:04 I've already looked at http://lists.b9.com/pipermail/clsql-help/2006-January/000552.html and http://lists.b9.com/pipermail/clsql-help/2006-January/000552.html 06:42:30 but these only get me an error: 06:42:31 debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-SLOT in thread # {1002DE1061}>: 06:42:31 The slot SB-PCL::NAME is unbound in the object # #>. 06:42:49 that's for the simple example in the second link, and for my own classes too. 06:43:06 What do I have to do to make that work with current versions? 06:43:40 Is anyone interested in the backtrace? 06:43:46 nunb [~user@121.243.225.226] has joined #lisp 06:46:14 -!- HarryS [H@harry.lu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:47:13 -!- RaceCondition [~RaceCondi@82.131.17.188.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep] 06:51:44 bozhidar 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[~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:47:27 anyone can help with clsql-sqlite3 in sbcl/linux? 07:47:56 -!- HarryS [H@harry.lu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:49:34 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-93-183-153.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:51:28 -!- ldunn [~user@d110-32-139-147.sun800.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51:29 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Quit: +++ killed by SIGSEGV +++] 07:51:41 varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:51:56 Deesl [~bsdboy@unaffiliated/deesl] has joined #lisp 07:51:57 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 07:54:14 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:55:15 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 07:58:36 rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118.93.183.153] has joined #lisp 07:59:04 -!- rbarraud 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[~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:54:20 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@playboxgames.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:57:02 urandom__ [~user@p548A5CD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:33 -!- Phoodus [foo@174-17-96-76.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:05:38 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@82.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:10:03 -!- xyxxyyy1 [~xyxu@58.41.57.112] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:11:35 HarryS [H@harry.lu] has joined #lisp 10:13:36 -!- Stattrav [~Stattrav@unaffiliated/stattrav] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:25 -!- HarryS [H@harry.lu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:51 how do i make slime-doc use multiple lines in the echo-area? 10:18:21 (message "First line \n second line") 10:18:39 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 10:18:54 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:19:04 ogamita: so that the function parameters are split. 10:19:16 *arguments 10:19:43 emacs-dwim: (message (join "\n" lines")) ; fsfo join 10:20:34 ogamita: Is that your way of telling me that i have to modify slime-doc? 10:21:50 Well, I never saw a customizable variable to do something like this already implemented, so yes, you will probably have to patch it. 10:22:23 emacs-dwim: I think there is an option for that already in slime, but sorry, I don't know what it is without reading slime.el. 10:22:48 ah, slime-autodoc-use-multiline-p 10:23:22 thanks. 10:27:26 emacs-dwim: C-c C-d A will do it on an ad-hoc basis 10:28:17 -!- nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:28:41 minion: memo for nyef: if you're still running minion and lisppaste these days, can we get them on #sbcl too? (if you're not, who's the right person to ask?) 10:28:41 Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 10:32:26 rtra_ [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 10:34:09 -!- rtra [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:40:15 vpalle [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has joined #lisp 10:41:12 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.5.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:41:41 HarryS [H@harry.lu] has joined #lisp 10:45:35 xinming [~hyy@115.221.3.101] has joined #lisp 10:45:45 -!- deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 10:47:56 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:49:43 -!- bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has quit [Quit: client closed in haste] 10:49:48 ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 10:50:10 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 10:52:31 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:53:22 Yuuhi [benni@p5483CE42.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:55:05 Can someone help with clsql-sqlite3? 10:55:05 xyxxyyy [~xyxu@116.227.195.185] has joined #lisp 10:55:25 -!- lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-188-50.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 11:01:18 -!- kenjin2201 [~kenjin@163.152.84.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:06:11 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@202.124.73.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:06:38 lichtblau [~user@port-92-195-188-50.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:09:45 flip214: i've never used it, but if you ask a more specific question someone might be able to answer 11:10:17 Well, I'm trying to get autoincrement keys working ... 11:10:21 I've seen http://lists.b9.com/pipermail/clsql-help/2006-January/000552.html 11:10:31 and http://lists.b9.com/pipermail/clsql-help/2006-January/000552.html 11:10:43 but these only get me an error: 11:10:45 pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has joined #lisp 11:10:51 debugger invoked on a UNBOUND-SLOT in thread # {1002DE1061}>: 11:10:51 The slot SB-PCL::NAME is unbound in the object # #>. 11:10:51 that's for the simple example in the second link, and for my own classes too. 11:11:08 I've got a backtrace, if anyone's interested ... 11:12:20 flip214: paste code, backtraces, etc. here please: http://paste.lisp.org/ 11:14:07 Krystof [~csr21@cpc1-bour2-0-0-cust414.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 11:14:44 aerique: http://paste.lisp.org/+2G2L 11:15:25 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:46 backtrace, please 11:18:12 nikodemus: http://paste.lisp.org/+2G2L/1, at least the first frames 11:20:49 -!- ogamita [~t@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:22:45 silenius [~silenus@p4FC2314A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@121.141.77.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:25:21 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-91314.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 11:27:50 -!- vpalle [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:28:32 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-1.vologda.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:29:44 -!- austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:30:28 H4ns [~Hans@p579F8C07.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:33:05 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:34:51 gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-1.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 11:36:15 flip214: that appears to be a clsql bug 11:36:28 morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7567e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:40 bandu [~coyotama@unaffiliated/bandu] has joined #lisp 11:36:47 in clsql/sql/metaclasses.lisp, there's the (defmethod initialize-instance :around ((obj view-class-direct-slot-definition) 11:36:57 rtoym [~chatzilla@user-0c99ag2.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:13 the error comes from trying to get the slot-definition-name before the slot definition has been initialized 11:37:17 nikodemus: thank you very much 11:37:58 can you fix that? I'd be very grateful ;-) 11:38:27 on the condition that you tell the upstream about it 11:39:31 see: http://paste.lisp.org/display/114141#2 11:40:01 here's how i found that: 11:41:27 1) look at the backtrace for the first frame that comes from clsql -- in this case it was ((SB-PCL::FAST-METHOD INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AROUND (CLSQL-SYS::VIEW-CLASS-DIRECT-SLOT-DEFINITION)) ...) -- a method specialized on a CLSQL class 11:41:36 2) look at the source of that method 11:42:02 nha [~prefect@imamac13.epfl.ch] has joined #lisp 11:42:45 3) look at the error. it's trying to get a name from slot-definition, which neatly corresponds to slot-definition-name call there. (i know just what it does, but even if you don't it is perfectly guessable) 11:42:47 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 11:43:33 nikodemus: another error, at http://paste.lisp.org/+2G2L/3 11:43:38 -!- sonnym [~evissecer@rrcs-184-74-137-167.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:43:39 4) try to figure out why the slot is not bound yet. answer: it's in the middle of the initialization. (again, guessable from the name) 11:43:57 sorry, my bug 11:44:16 trying to fix my paste-problem ... 11:44:20 Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-2.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:45:09 5) either you know how to fix it, figure it out, or just kludge around it by (a) removing the warning (b) figuring out what's wrong with your class definition since it's trying to complain about it 11:45:50 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 11:46:20 nikodemus: seems to work. Thank you very much, I'll try to get that upstream. 11:46:52 austinh [~austinh@c-67-189-92-40.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:11 solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvpcd.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-203-193.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:50:27 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-181-203-193.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:25 rme [~rme@pool-70-105-116-106.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:58 -!- DaDa` [~user@203-62.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 11:55:23 nikodemus: sent a mail to clsql@ and the debian maintainer. Thank you very much! 12:00:27 -!- Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:02:24 fiveop [~fiveop@erft-d932ec28.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:59 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: federate lunch?] 12:03:16 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:00 vpalle [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has joined #lisp 12:04:33 -!- rbarraud_ [~rbarraud@118.93.183.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:07:31 -!- _3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:07:48 _3b` [foobar@cpe-72-179-19-4.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:08:13 davazp [~user@128.Red-88-6-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:19 -!- Edward [~ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-63-2.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 12:11:51 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 12:14:46 ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.159.152.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:36 -!- davazp [~user@128.Red-88-6-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:59 ohih0wru [~andrei@78.84.161.66] has joined #lisp 12:19:13 are there any cl libraries that add methods to DOCUMENTATION or (SETF DOCUMENTATION)? 12:19:54 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 12:20:02 -!- flip214 [~marek@2001:858:107:1:baac:6fff:fe6b:9183] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:21:20 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:21:47 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-181-149.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:48 sonnym [~evissecer@singlebrookvpn.lightlink.com] has joined #lisp 12:23:11 <_3b> google code search finds a few 12:23:49 rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 12:26:22 antifuchs: named readtables 12:27:09 tritchey [~tritchey@c-68-51-119-127.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:12 it's even worse because I add methods for a standardized symbol which is no truly conforming but works out just fine, or is ignored (e.g. on ecl) 12:35:25 antifuchs: I've seen that yes. I don't remember where :-( 12:36:00 tcr, what about package locks? 12:36:35 ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.113.212.75] has joined #lisp 12:37:38 mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:51 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.114.159.152.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:39:20 -!- sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:40:47 vpalle_ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has joined #lisp 12:41:18 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:41:39 weirdo: Implementations that have those also provide a means to disable them 12:41:57 deepfire [~deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 12:42:33 -!- vpalle [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:43:18 -!- ziarkaen_ [~ziarkaen@87.113.212.75] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:46:54 slash_1 [~unknown@p5DD1C9A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:23 -!- slash_ [~unknown@p5DD1D9C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:48:06 jmbr [~jmbr@bpcmat07.mat.ucm.es] has joined #lisp 12:48:14 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:49:14 -!- loxs [~loxs@213.169.45.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:49:31 xan_ [~xan@124.62.3.57] has joined #lisp 12:49:45 -!- HarryS [H@harry.lu] has quit [Quit: reconfiguring something...] 12:50:48 b-man_ [~b-man@189.34.49.43] has joined #lisp 12:51:57 -!- H4ns [~Hans@p579F8C07.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:52:53 sbahra [~sbahra@pool-74-106-252-24.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:41 -!- rajesh [~rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:54:28 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-179-142.lns20.bne4.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:54:58 -!- silenius [~silenus@p4FC2314A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55:18 -!- ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:37 ecraven [~user@140.78.42.213] has joined #lisp 12:57:04 -!- sellout [~greg@c-24-61-13-161.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: sellout] 13:03:55 magius_pendragon [~magius@cpe-071-070-210-101.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:04:05 -!- magius_pendragon [~magius@cpe-071-070-210-101.nc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 13:06:58 -!- xinming [~hyy@115.221.3.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:07:07 -!- varjag [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07:54 xinming [~hyy@115.221.3.101] has joined #lisp 13:08:10 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:01 -!- jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:48 jmcphers [~jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 13:12:26 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.77] has joined #lisp 13:14:04 mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:36 -!- spradnyesh [~pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-ejzmndmsxkkmsdcu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:16:45 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:19:20 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 13:20:23 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-cbzfpiavkhbsuwpd] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:21:10 sellout [~greg@2002:4855:eb9a:0:21d:4fff:fefe:c504] has joined #lisp 13:21:27 sixpoint8 [~jaykub@ip68-12-204-131.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:28 plage [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:25:35 Good afternoon everyone! 13:26:02 -!- jmbr [~jmbr@bpcmat07.mat.ucm.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:27:11 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:27:29 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:27:58 Howdy plage 13:28:04 -!- xan_ [~xan@124.62.3.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:30:26 HarryS [H@harry.lu] has joined #lisp 13:35:30 mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has joined #lisp 13:35:42 -!- solussd [~solussd@user-0cdvpcd.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: solussd] 13:36:08 I always thought that it was a good thing that CLIM turned event-driven into driven by program control, but I can't think of any situation in CLIM where this is essential. Input typically transits by an input editor which is pretty much event driven anyway. 13:36:20 Can anybody help me sort this out? 13:36:33 dlowe [~dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:59 -!- peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-116-43.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:37:14 rrice [~rrice@adsl-76-253-140-91.dsl.akrnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:14 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:40:35 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-91314.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:49 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-91314.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:59 Well, commands are events. 13:41:11 It's a matter of the abstraction of interpretation. 13:42:12 -!- gemelen [~shelta@shpd-92-101-131-1.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:42:18 Or, perhaps, of adding interpretation of intention to action. 13:42:29 xan_ [~xan@220.118.197.183] has joined #lisp 13:42:35 Sure, but there is this concept of input stream, from which gestures are read. But I don't see where it serves. I mean, it even complicates things when it then comes to accept, it seems. 13:43:15 It's your event stream. 13:43:40 Well, I may be confusing how things ought to be with how they are. 13:43:50 jajcloz [~jaj@2002:4855:eb9a:0:219:e3ff:fe02:96b8] has joined #lisp 13:46:32 Treating the event stream as an input stream seems reasonable to me. 13:48:38 I can also see a multi-threaded application where each thread issues reads from different streams (i.e. different windows). 13:53:18 But what does it mean for a single-threaded application to block on a read from a steam? Does it mean that you can't push buttons or or use menues until that read has been satisfied? That doesn't seem reasonable to me, and indeed that's not what CLIM does, but in order not to dothat, it seems things become complicated. 13:53:57 zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.108] has joined #lisp 13:54:58 -!- Nshag [user@lns-bzn-43-82-249-171-227.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:19 ak70 [~ak70@80.77.204.157] has joined #lisp 13:56:40 -!- salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:57:14 -!- HG` [~HG@xdsl-92-252-95-218.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:59:33 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@213.162.68.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:59:41 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@cpe-98-14-173-5.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:03:13 have a separate worker thread(s) to whom potentially blocking operations are delegated? 14:03:53 nikodemus: One for each gadget/pane? 14:04:37 grab one from the pool when you need one? do you need to assign them to things permanently? 14:05:04 nikodemus: I see what you mean, and I would have to think about how that would work. 14:12:05 Say I have a list of slot-names and a list of slot-definitions, I know want to get all (and only those) slot definitions who show up in the list of slot-names 14:12:21 nikodemus: That probably won't work, because threads that block might have nonempty dynamic environments. But one thread per gadget might not be a problem wrt performance. However, it would be a programming nightmare if all you need is a single-threaded application. 14:12:34 It seems like I cannot actually use intersection for that because it is not specified from which list it draws result elements from 14:15:02 tcr: remove-if-not? 14:15:43 yeah that's what I'm doing now, that plus member 14:15:49 the most underrated deprecated function, since complement is a function 14:15:55 lnostdal [~quassel@56.84-48-233.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:16 jleija [~jleija@user-24-214-122-46.knology.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:31 Congratulations, that statement has a high score on the younder-scala 14:16:52 -!- auntie [~rewt@97-121-32-3.bois.qwest.net] has left #lisp 14:17:08 now you got me 14:17:14 no-one cares about the deprecation notes in clhs -- some of them have a point, many of them don't, and nothing is really being deprecated 14:17:28 tcr: too many words spelled correctly. 14:17:29 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:18:33 -!- vpalle_ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:19:41 antifuchs: next time you're kicking the tires on boinkmarks, i think your "unthreaded builds" are really threaded now as well -- if you look at the jump in eg. CTAK, it corresponds with enabling threads by default on x86oid linux 14:19:41 kiuma [~kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:22:09 nikodemus: I'm pretty sure the unthreaded build code removes the :sb-thread feature in customize-target-features 14:23:52 oh, oh no 14:23:56 it doesn't. shame. 14:24:51 You might want to look into your contract before you give it a kick. 14:25:18 employers are fine with me running this (: 14:25:32 nikodemus: I remember. I turned off building of the threaded sbcl a while ago 14:25:37 are they also fine that they're multiple? 14:25:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:25:53 can't parse this 14:26:02 I mean that it's not just one employer 14:26:15 uh, sbcl isn't an employer, in any way (: 14:26:33 nikodemus: the things enabled by default are how sbcl builds, out of the box, now. 14:26:53 (and it seems to have been so since 1.0.34) (: 14:26:58 Ah well my joke was bad to begin with and having to explain it does not really make it any better :-) 14:27:06 (-: 14:31:03 navigator [~navigator@p54892233.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:24 -!- aerique [euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 14:31:43 vpalle_ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has joined #lisp 14:31:49 antifuchs: it makes the graphs for the unthreaded ones a bit misleading, since they gain threads at one point... :) 14:31:58 ak701 [~ak70@80.77.204.157] has joined #lisp 14:32:13 -!- ak70 [~ak70@80.77.204.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:32:16 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:32:26 could you truncate those to the point where threads are enabled, maybe? 14:33:06 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:06 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:41 mindCrime [~chatzilla@rrcs-70-62-112-146.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:20 stepnem [~stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #lisp 14:40:47 aceluck [~aceluck@175.144.254.120] has joined #lisp 14:41:34 -!- vpalle_ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:41:53 -!- dfox [~dfox@ip-89-176-209-74.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:49:19 -!- plage [~user@ssh2.labri.fr] has left #lisp 14:53:25 homie [~user@xdsl-87-79-137-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:53:30 wbooze [~user@xdsl-87-79-137-241.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:58:08 DaDa` 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known as legumbre 16:08:35 zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 16:08:43 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:10:47 -!- Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:15:05 DaDa` [~user@203-62.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:16:48 srolls [~user@167.216.131.126] has joined #lisp 16:16:53 -!- ace4016 [~jmarcelin@adsl-32-117-5.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire.] 16:17:57 LiamH [~none@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:18:14 kripton [~cc@190.228.67.114] has joined #lisp 16:18:35 Davidbrcz [~david@212-198-87-124.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 16:19:05 -!- lnostdal [~quassel@56.84-48-233.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:19:08 -!- pdo [~pdo@217.33.254.141] has left #lisp 16:20:42 -!- hlavaty [~user@77-22-104-162-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:20:47 peterhil` [~peterhil@a91-153-116-43.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 16:23:20 minion thwap to me 16:23:52 Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-172.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:24:02 eheh 16:24:19 gozek [~quassel@56.165.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:24:47 minion: thwap to me 16:24:47 fe[nl]ix: direct your attention towards thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 16:24:51 -!- mstevens [~mstevens@fsf/member/pdpc.active.mstevens] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:24:56 thanks :) 16:27:13 -!- cpc26 [~user@dpc6747131073.direcpc.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:44 Xach [~xach@cpe-72-227-90-1.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:37 ianmcorvidae|alt [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 16:30:38 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:30:47 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:32:19 Ok, certain versions of osx 10.5.8 crash when you run an SBCL or CCL process within them. 16:32:42 apple hates lisp 16:32:52 -!- ignas [~ignas@78-60-73-85.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:32:53 it's a conspiracy!!1 16:34:36 Well, I said "certain versions" not for nothing, this wasn't the "vanilla" kernel, but rather whatever I managed to run in virtualbox. 16:35:43 hackintosh? 16:38:20 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:39:02 it seems strange, as CCL's primary environment is osx 16:39:17 either hackingtosh's broken or it's vbox 16:40:43 peterhil [~peterhil@a91-153-120-132.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 16:41:06 words fail. 16:43:59 -!- benny [~user@i577A3D56.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:45:24 askatasuna [~askatasun@host230.190-3-1.static.telmex.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:47:44 -!- tankrim` 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has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:31:43 -!- ziarkaen [~ziarkaen@87.112.106.42.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:32:14 are streams thread safe? 17:32:55 perhasp 17:33:01 *perhaps 17:33:06 depends on the implementation 17:33:51 depends on what thread safe means with regards to streams :) 17:34:08 -!- pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-49-182.dslaccess.co.uk] has quit [Quit: pdo] 17:34:15 that too :D 17:34:56 hmm ok. i'm finding slime's auto-flush-loop weird 17:36:30 basically, i have two situations with acl: 17:36:31 with dedicated output stream, acl's a lot faster to print output but sometimes i get incorrect output, like some reused vector which fill-pointer has not been updated 17:36:44 If you write a line, and then do a finish-output in each thread, you won't see mangled output 17:36:47 without, it's a lot slower, but the output is correct (as far as i've seen) 17:37:22 printing is slow yes 17:37:55 tcr: i assume then that this is not news 17:38:05 -!- Zephyrus [~emanuele@unaffiliated/zephyrus] has quit [Quit: ""] 17:39:42 deepfire: if I understand correctly, you run stuff on a virtual machine, in an OS that's patched in an unsupported way to allow running in that virtual machine. 17:39:47 there's flow control involved for a reason I'm not really aware of 17:40:11 so the first thing you suspect of causing instability is ccl? (-: 17:41:24 well, to test, i've done (time (dotimes (i 1000) (print (make-string 200 :initial-element #\a)))) in the slime repl, if it helps 17:41:45 i couldn't trace anything useful, either on acl or on emacs 17:42:14 that one tests the GC, too 17:42:15 redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has joined #lisp 17:42:49 i can test with a let around, to create the string only once 17:43:55 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-140-66-27.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:44:11 antifuchs, what did make you think I suspected anything in particular? 17:44:12 same error, sometimes i get a line bigger than 202 (200 + 2 double quotes) 17:44:32 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@host230.190-3-1.static.telmex.net.ar] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3] 17:45:13 deepfire: yeah, it looked funnier when I first read it 17:45:21 antifuchs, I simply noted the fact it happens. 17:45:37 but the way you peeled back the layers of potential failures made the original problem description seem inaccurate 17:46:00 pdo [~pdo@dyn-62-56-49-182.dslaccess.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:46:45 I don't think I peeled anything. 17:47:36 I could, btw, given that the sbcl-crashing-the-xnu kernel is one of the three kernel panic listed at https://code.google.com/p/xnu-dev/wiki/FAQ 17:48:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:48:12 metaphorical peeling 17:48:14 anyway 17:48:15 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:48:22 Don't mind yours fellow's pedantism, your turn will come duly. :-) 17:49:59 Anyway, I'm on my way to running vanilla apple stuff, seems like there's good info on how to virtualise it. 17:50:03 *Xach* groans: That isn't null or a cons cell, Tom said listlessly. 17:51:26 proper-listlessly (-: 17:53:17 *tcr* writes (mapcar (stripper 'quote) names) 17:56:55 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-91314.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:57:18 Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-91314.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 17:59:06 salva [~salva@105.11.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:53 rfg [~rfg@host81-102-109-24.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:54 -!- jdz [~jdz@host135-21-dynamic.4-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:03:58 -!- trebor_dki [~user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:04:50 Jabber_ [~Jens@port-91884.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 18:05:08 Xach: those are all pretty groan worthy :) 18:05:43 -!- Jabberwockey [~Jens@port-91314.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:06:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:06:42 Joreji [~thomas@77-066.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:12:17 woo hoo! /me is registered for ILC 18:12:24 *Xach* books flights, hotel 18:12:46 -!- Jabber_ is now known as Jabberwockey 18:15:09 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:19:46 -!- eldragon is now known as maharba 18:23:03 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:26:14 -!- pmd [~user@2001:690:2100:4:200:1aff:fe19:daa8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:06 -!- dfkjjkfd [~paulh@184-13-ftth.onsnetstudenten.nl] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 18:39:57 *Xach* looks forward to meeting rg, sean champ, and gavino at ILC 18:40:55 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:57 Xach: who's sean champ? 18:41:12 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:12 -!- rich_holygoat [~rnewman@rrcs-64-183-136-38.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:41:12 rich_holygoat [~rnewman@pdpc/supporter/student/rich-holygoat] has joined #lisp 18:42:38 sean champ was a lisp guy with a highly stylized way of writing. it was a little hard to understand. 18:42:38 davazp [~user@128.Red-88-6-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:54 don't know what he's up to now. he's been quiet (lispwise, anyway) for years. 18:43:13 avallark [~user@59.93.33.62] has joined #lisp 18:43:27 hello all :) 18:43:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:46:31 hey, i have a n00bie question.. i thought lisp variables are dynamically typed.. so i just made a new variable choice and said (setq choice 1) .. now i get a warning saying undefined variable choice .. what am i doing wrong? 18:46:38 do i need to do a defvar ? 18:47:00 avallark: (defparameter *choice* 1) might be better. 18:47:09 avallark: you sound confused 18:47:25 stassats`: i am :D 18:47:38 Xach: do i have to do a defparameter everytime i need to use a variable? 18:48:04 lnostdal [~quassel@56.84-48-233.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:09 avallark: if you're treating them as globals, yes. 18:48:14 or defvar 18:48:35 <_3b> you have to have a variable, defparameter is one way of getting one 18:49:04 <_3b> or defvar, or let, function arguments, etc 18:49:19 with defvar you have it declared special ? 18:49:52 and all this has nothing to with dynamic typing, but with dynamic scoping 18:49:55 how about if i want a local variable to use within a function. do i have to specify it separately? 18:50:06 yeah thats what i meant.. dynamic scoping 18:50:08 sorry 18:50:17 and lisp variables aren't dynamically scoped unless you tell them so 18:51:05 dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has joined #lisp 18:51:05 -!- dialtone [~dialtone@70.36.244.244] has quit [Changing host] 18:51:05 dialtone [~dialtone@unaffiliated/dialtone] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 and by lisp i don't mean such atrocities as emacs lisp 18:51:25 but but 18:51:36 avallark: variables are introduced with LET, LET*, etc. There's a difference between declaration/initialisation and assignment. 18:51:38 now go and fix those slime bugs! 18:51:55 stassats`: haha .. 18:52:07 pkhuong_: thanks mate 18:52:13 Jubb [~ghost@24-151-75-175.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:29 tcr: i don't see "rewrite everything in CL" among them 18:52:44 stassats`: Hemlock! 18:52:46 -!- davazp [~user@128.Red-88-6-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:53:59 hemlock has its own share of bugs 18:54:19 Trade bugs for bugs 18:54:59 daniel__ [~daniel@p5082B32F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:53 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:15 -!- redline6561 [~redline@gate-30.spsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:56:47 -!- daniel [~daniel@p5082A72F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:56:59 -!- Edward [ed@AAubervilliers-154-1-74-172.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 18:57:48 adamska [~adamska@174.19-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:59:31 hello do you know a good documentation an example of source code for a program using C for low level operation and lisp for the treatement of the information? 19:00:09 minion: cffi? 19:00:10 cffi: CFFI, the Common Foreign Function Interface, purports to be a portable foreign function interface (FFI) for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/cffi 19:01:57 What about gsll or matlisp or whatever the other interfaces to LAPACK are called? 19:02:24 Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:44 -!- Sumpen [~Sumpen@81-232-77-93-no46.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:06:38 vpalle_ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has joined #lisp 19:08:26 mm... for EQ hash tables, SBCL has to rehash some tables after each GC (because some of the keys were moved during GC). What if, instead, we had a centralised table from address to hash value that was updated on GCs, and everything else could depend on EQ hash values not changing between GCs? 19:09:57 No more rehash on GC (which can be a nice win for large tables), but one additional uncorrelated memory access to hash pointers. I have no idea what sort of things EQ tables are used for elsewhere, so it's really hard to tell which way is preferable. 19:11:21 hash-tables with symbol as key are usually misused because their interface is so convenient 19:11:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:11:36 misused? 19:11:38 those tend to be rather small in my experience 19:11:47 tcr: I think symbols are special cased anyway. 19:12:03 and hash-tables are quite heavy in memory consumption 19:12:56 that's my worry: large read-mostly hash tables, for which rehash after GC is a noticeable slowdown. 19:13:04 -!- Jubb [~ghost@24-151-75-175.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Jubb] 19:13:51 symbols have a symbol-hash slot. 19:13:56 what's true for EQ, should then also be true for all others? 19:14:07 timor [~timor@port-92-195-78-148.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:33 redline6561 [~redline@m3a5e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:46 -!- rtra_ [~rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:15:01 tcr: it depends on the key, actually. "EQ hash" is only a shorthand for hash tables for which the hash values depend on the keys' address 19:15:32 when and how is this decision made? 19:15:39 after insert? 19:15:47 yup. 19:15:56 On GC, actually. 19:16:37 how can it decide from the type of the key? 19:17:15 hm ok I think I see :-) even in case of equal, it's known to resort to EQ for some stuff 19:17:26 right. RT spec. 19:17:47 so you're screwed when writing a custom hash function based on addresses :-) 19:18:17 that too. 19:18:43 That's another good point for GC-safe hash values. 19:19:22 magius_pendragon [~magius@cpe-071-070-210-101.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:23 We use hash tables a lot, but I can't recall any explicit dependencies on eq hashing except for symbols 19:19:44 We need the stuff to be fast though; would the extra memory access only involved eq-hashed key lookups? 19:19:53 -!- magius_pendragon [~magius@cpe-071-070-210-101.nc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 19:20:45 jmbr [~jmbr@82.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:21:12 Speaking of extra memory access, I'd really to be able to switch on CSE for some area of code, or actually allow a potential peephole optimizer to coalesce memory accesses :-) 19:21:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-133-171-82.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:22:50 I wonder if I would get that in my case if I used define-constant rather than defglobal 19:23:08 carlocci [~nes@93.37.208.19] has joined #lisp 19:24:26 hm no wait, does sbcl make use of :read-only t for optimization purposes? 19:26:19 -!- jajcloz [~jaj@2002:4855:eb9a:0:219:e3ff:fe02:96b8] has quit [Quit: jajcloz] 19:30:38 -!- ans [~user@84.41.90.123] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:30:47 dboswell [~dave@64.55.42.133] has joined #lisp 19:32:20 -!- astoon [~astoon@213.141.244.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:32:21 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:34:15 schoppenhauer [~senjak@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:36:38 tcr: yup, only for EQ hashes 19:37:15 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-4d012ade.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:19 tcr: look in my stm library. There's a hack for CSEed globals. 19:37:26 hi 19:37:36 hey prxq! 19:37:58 -!- qbomb [~qbomb@firewall.gibsonemc.com] has left #lisp 19:38:10 pkhuong_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/114163 19:38:58 pkhuong_: because OUTER-IN is read-only, couldn't SBCL rightfully coalesce that struct access? 19:39:27 it could. 19:39:35 hi Xach 19:42:22 emacs-dw` [~user@cpe-67-249-221-115.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:43 -!- serichsen [~user@hmbg-4d069db2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 19:43:32 Aisling_ [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 19:43:46 herbieB_ [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:46 s0ber_ [~s0ber@111-240-207-15.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:46 lnostdal_ [~quassel@56.84-48-233.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:53 zbigniew_ [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:55 there was a way to ensure that all code in sbcl was compiled with a minimum debug level... which was that? I have trouble finding it 19:44:05 Xach: I mean... hi Xach! :-) 19:44:18 -!- lnostdal [~quassel@56.84-48-233.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:44:47 prxq: sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 19:44:56 prxq: C-u C-c C-c and C-u C-c C-k in slime 19:45:04 ah... Thanks! 19:45:06 kiuma [~kiuma@93-35-224-61.ip57.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:45:57 -!- Aisling_ [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:46:02 Aisling_ [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 19:46:26 -!- gigamonkey [~user@adsl-99-24-217-129.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:47:10 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:47:11 -!- m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:47:15 -!- Aisling_ [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:47:27 -!- emacs-dwim [~user@cpe-67-249-221-115.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:32 -!- Aisling [ash@blk-222-192-36.eastlink.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:33 -!- zbigniew [~zb@li177-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:33 -!- lemoinem [~swoog@38-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:33 -!- Quadrescence [~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:47:34 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@111-240-207-15.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:35 -!- herbieB [~herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:35 -!- Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.50.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:41 m4thrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:47:52 mathrick [~mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:47:57 lemoinem [~swoog@38-91-252-216.dsl.colba.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:02 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-210-187-107.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:48:40 Jubb [~ghost@24-151-75-175.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:49:01 pkhuong_: I filed this as a feature request 19:49:04 Ginei_Morioka [irssi_log@78.112.50.19] has joined #lisp 19:51:12 anyone happens to know how to achieve 
ness in launchpad reports?
19:52:25  tcr: someone has spammed your blog recently
19:52:48  I know I get emails from comments
19:53:14  ok.
19:53:42 ans [~user@user123.c3.sevnica.kabelnet.net] has joined #lisp
19:53:52 -!- mcsontos [~mcsontos@hotspot8.rywasoft.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
19:53:54  Seems like scammers nowadays actually write text that makes kind of sense
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20:13:41  is there an easy way of tracking down memory criss-cross in lisp?
20:14:52 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-48-164.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:15:03  most of my flat lists are okay, but setting up a list of lists is causing memory re-use even when i explicitly create each element...
20:15:32  i am using clisp
20:16:17  specbot: documentation?
20:16:42  oh, no specbot...
20:16:53  why do you say memory is being reused?
20:17:10 smik_ [~siddhant3@180.215.28.132] has joined #lisp
20:17:30 *Xach* is going to go out on a limb and imagine it's a quoted literal issue
20:17:37  Why isn't (member ...) not (memberp ...)
20:17:44  because the same function call is returning incrementally higher values in non-first elements of sublists
20:17:54  smik_: because it's not a predicate
20:18:00 -!- carlocci [~nes@93.37.208.19] has quit [Quit: eventually IE will rot and die]
20:18:06  What about ATOM?
20:18:25  smik_ didn't ask about atom!
20:18:28  stassats`: But doesn't it return a predicate?
20:18:34  smik_: some names in common lisp have a long heritage
20:18:39  so in the first run i get something like ((10 3) (5 4) (2 20)) and in the second run i get something like ((10 3) (5 4) (2 40))
20:18:56 -!- atomx [~user@93.112.81.240] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:19:01  smik_: it returns a list
20:19:04  abiessu: paste some code, perhaps.
20:19:11 dto [~user@cpe-74-75-37-65.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
20:19:48  abiessu: this is probably because you've used literal lists instead of allocating new lists (eg. with LIST or MAKE-LIST).
20:20:06  stassats`: are you sure about that?
20:20:22  stassats`: I am studying POAI
20:20:23  abiessu: literal lists are obtained with QUOTE, ' or #. reader macro.
20:20:53  smik_: i'm dead sure and i don't know what POAI is
20:21:14  Plain Old Artificial Intelligence?
20:21:15  Paradigms
20:21:17  Aargh.  utf8 external format is _still_ broken.
20:21:24  stassats`: Paradigm of Artificial Intelligence: Case study in Common Lisp
20:21:37  abiessu: notice that eg. while APPEND copies the element from all the firsts lists, it just keep a reference to the last list of the tail of the result.
20:21:41 hankhero [~Adium@c213-89-201-154.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp
20:21:43  smik_: it's commonly abbreviated as PAIP
20:21:44  smik_: you mean PAIP :)
20:21:58  Oh,
20:22:04  s/of the tail/for the tail/
20:22:10  Yes yes, Damn, yes
20:22:18  and you forgot "Programming" there
20:23:19  stassats`: So where can I find a definitive reference about what (member) does?
20:23:36  CLHS, surely
20:23:44  CLHS
20:23:48  !CLHS
20:23:55  paste is here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/114166
20:24:05  stassats`: ?
20:24:23  thanks pjb for alerting me to the distiction between '(1 2) and (list 1 2)...
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20:26:51 faux [~user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp
20:28:02  clhs read-line
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20:38:13  clhs documentation
20:38:28 Sikander [~soemraws@5356ECA7.cable.casema.nl] has joined #lisp
20:38:31  Hi
20:38:52  Hi Sikander
20:38:52  LiamH, memo from Sikander: I have committed and pushed the changes that should make the tests fail reproducibly.
20:38:58  oooh
20:39:04  ah..
20:39:14 *LiamH* celebrates consistent failure
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20:39:58  LiamH: I tried it out many times with many configurations and now and then resetting the random number generator. Always same amount of errors.
20:40:12  Sikander: unfortunately not thought about GSLL in the last few days, spending time on the paying jobs
20:40:18 -!- Kenjin [~josesanto@83.240.225.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:40:30  Sikander: what is the count that you get?
20:40:31  i've noticed that sbcl is consistently marked as 'port in progress' for x86 windows... is there a chance that it will be caught up and fully ported soon?
20:40:32  LiamH: Ah, those nasty paying jobs... They always come in the way of real work
20:40:41  Sikander: yes!
20:41:01  LiamH: Erm, well, many. I tested it for different amounts of arrays
20:41:21  (is there an easy way a semi-novice could contribute to the effort?)
20:41:24  Sikander: OK, I'll pull tonight and take a look.
20:41:31  LiamH: So I don't have a fixed number for you. I think the test in the fast-fourier-transform tests gave me 178 failures.
20:42:35 rvirding [~chatzilla@h19n4c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp
20:44:20  Sikander: I couldn't resist, I'm looking at your changes now while running the tests.
20:44:30  Ah, ok
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20:47:13  LiamH: It's as I said. Uncommenting the test case in fast-fourier-transform.lisp results in 112 assertions passed, 178 failed consistently (for me at least).
20:47:21  Sikander: uh oh.  I saw FAST-FOURIER-TRANSFORM: 112 assertions passed, 178 failed. twice and FAST-FOURIER-TRANSFORM: 113 assertions passed, 177 failed. once.
20:47:33  LiamH: Huh?!
20:48:12  The 178 failures I see all but that one time.
20:48:14  LiamH: I don't get it. I ran this about 5 times for at least 4 different amounts
20:48:33  Ok, so I'm probably still missing something somewhere.
20:48:57  Just got 177 again.  About every 5 or 6 times it seems.  But I agree, it's a lot more consistent than before.
20:50:01  I'm not too worried, I do see a random change on the other tests occasionally, but usually it's first run vs. subsequent runs.
20:50:17  LiamH: I still get 178.
20:50:27  Weird.
20:50:38  Perhaps it's a matter of precision somewhere...?
20:50:44  Sikander: maybe my computer is getting hit by more cosmic rays?
20:51:15 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@vaxjo7.254.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp
20:52:31  LiamH: I don't understand; this would appear to give 290 assertions. There are 9 sizes of arrays, with 3+2 strides. This should make 290 divisible by 45, if for each case there are an equal amount of tests. But it isn't
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20:54:02  Sikander: there are extras (64 and 99) with stride 1 only
20:54:37  LiamH: Oh, I'm sorry, I mis-interpreted the meaning. I thought that those were additional strides.
20:54:59  Ok, so 9*3+2
20:55:09  Sikander: IIRC they're additional sizes at stride 1
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20:55:21  LiamH: That makes sense.
20:56:14  Yes, that gives 10 assertions per case, 3 for complex single and double, and 2 for real single and double
20:56:45  LiamH: So the failures should be exactly 180
20:57:15  Sikander: all the stride > 1 tests?
20:57:27  LiamH: Yes, there are 180 with stride > 1
20:57:54  LiamH: I think we're safe. The only _given_ is that they are not guaranteed to succeed.
20:57:56  Sikander: and yet two (or occasionally three for me) slip through and pass
20:58:19  LiamH: I should track the reason for that down, though.
20:58:47 -!- vpalle_ [~vpalle@62.198.93.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20:58:55  Well you instructed me on testing on and off stride separately, so I'll have to implement that.
20:59:32  LiamH: When you tested it, did you just do (lisp-unit:run-tests ...)?
20:59:37  LiamH: A few times?
20:59:52 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp
20:59:57  yes, for "..." = "fast-fourier-transform"
21:00:20 bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp
21:00:36  Sikander: Yes. Weird, because I consistently get 178 failures. Since (I guess) the random number generator is reset every time, it would be very odd if it didn't reproduce
21:01:21 nyef [~nyef@pool-71-255-129-229.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp
21:01:26  LiamH: I already ran it over 15 times, and consistently get 178 failures.
21:01:30  agreed, weird
21:01:51  LiamH: Although, this number should be 180 so I should figure out what's wrong.
21:02:11  LiamH: Wait, it can't be 180
21:02:36  LiamH: Or rather, I think I understand what the problem is.
21:02:53 -!- Makoryu [~vt920@pool-71-174-191-10.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:03:53  LiamH: The only "special" cases I can think of, are size 1 and stride 2 and 3.
21:04:18  LiamH: Perhaps due to a wrong initialisation, those always succeed.
21:04:20  Sikander: I know what it is
21:04:32  Sikander: Ah, enlighten me please!
21:04:36  Sikander: when size =1, stride 2 or 3 makes no sense
21:04:56  LiamH: Well, it does make sense. The vector will have dimension size*stride
21:04:56  Sikander: or I should say, is really stride 1, so it's "right"
21:05:26  LiamH: For size 1, you don't check the whole array?
21:05:50  Sikander: right, I do, so it passes, even though it's specified as stride 2 or 3
21:06:00  hence 180-2 = 178
21:06:15  LiamH: I agree that that's probably the problem
21:06:25  LiamH: But I don't agree tat it is because of the reason you say.
21:07:03  LiamH: the vector will have a dimension size*stride, so there _are_ off-stride components that are also compared
21:07:10  LiamH: It _should_ fail on those.
21:07:25  Sikander: oh
21:07:41  LiamH: However, what I think is that it doesn't because the array is too short to introduce numerical error
21:08:07  LiamH: And I apparently didn't initialise properly.
21:08:36  LiamH: In principle, the failures should NOT be caused by numerical error, but because of the different initialisations.
21:09:22 jmbr [~jmbr@82.32.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp
21:09:26  Sikander: So, time to debug to increase the number of failures properly?
21:09:43  LiamH: I'll figure this out.
21:09:47 *francogrex* likes the screecast quicklisp intro
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21:10:30  LiamH: Btw, did you do some profiling? I was thinking that maybe slowdown is caused by the garbage collector removing arrays?
21:10:55  LiamH: After all, for each case you create 2*(4+5) vectors
21:11:00  or so
21:11:16  Sikander: no, but if you run (time...) in SBCL it will break out time spent GCing, and I recall that it's not a huge fraction of the time.
21:11:45  LiamH: Really? Never noticed this about time... Cool!
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21:12:17  Sikander: in a given collection the work of a copying GC is proportional to the amount of live objects, not the amount of garbage.
21:12:56  luis: wouldn't it be proportional to the total live+garbage?
21:13:00  luis: Ah, didn't know this.
21:13:08  First-order approximation: Paging kills, as does cache-thrashing.
21:13:08  nyef, memo from p_l: Do you think an ARMv6K device with 160MB ram (and linux 2.6) would be enough to play around with SBCL port?
21:13:08  nyef, memo from nikodemus: if you're still running minion and lisppaste these days, can we get them on #sbcl too? (if you're not, who's the right person to ask?)
21:13:39  LiamH: well, it only copies live objects, it doesn't touch the garbage at all because it's reachable.
21:13:45  *it's NOT reachable
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21:15:29  luis: oh, I see
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21:18:00 -!- rfg [~rfg@host81-102-109-24.not-set-yet.ntli.net] has quit [Quit: rfg]
21:18:08  but as nyef says, the garbage will cause fragmentation amongst live objects, plus the more garbage the more the GC is invoked, the more live objects are copied around.
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21:22:47  Not even that. Your working-set size alone could kill you.
21:22:52 -!- varjag [~eugene@4.169.249.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
21:23:30  Part of the reason so-called "generational" GC can be more efficient than a full-heap GC is that it usually has a smaller working set itself.
21:23:41  well, that's where the generat... right.
21:24:11  Still, even then you can start to run out of space, or if you suddenly have a bunch of pointers from older generations to newspace...
21:24:55  And god help you if your heap space exceeds physical memory, because that would just be the kiss of death for performance.
21:25:00 -!- Modius [~Modius@cpe-24-28-30-165.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
21:25:20  how do I tell how much heap space I have?
21:25:48  Depends on the system.
21:26:06  Oh, I should qualify that, -live- heap space.
21:26:33  system meaning OS?
21:26:36  (Includes all live data + garbage at GC onset.)
21:26:43  System meaning lisp implementation.
21:26:51  sbcl
21:26:53  Or  implementation.
21:27:16  (room) ?
21:27:17  For totals, there are some SB-VM constants for the space parameters.
21:27:27  For live-data usage, ROOM is the defined interface.
21:27:59  That said, ROOM is... nasty, and possibly dangerously unmaintained.
21:28:15  (Speaking as an internals hacker, here.)
21:28:55  Dynamic space usage is:   247,471,648 bytes.
21:29:20 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp
21:29:24  Not even half a gig? You should be fine.
21:29:34  (ha-ha)
21:29:37 Blkt [~user@net-93-145-60-91.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined #lisp
21:29:46  If we are trusting (room).
21:29:56 redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
21:30:02  It's usually tolerable on x86oids.
21:30:26  Just... generates garbage, and there comes a point in repeated invocations where it actually goes nonlinear and consumes all the heap itself.
21:30:35 Jasko [~tjasko@c-174-59-223-208.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
21:30:39  I have 4GB of RAM, if that makes a difference.   So it shouldn't be paging, right?
21:30:59  Shouldn't be, unless something else also has a killer working-set.
21:31:21  Like a big database or long-running firefox instance.
21:31:24  emacs, pidgin.... firefox
21:31:54  Oh, right, and emacs is huge. ^_-
21:32:02  could anyone tell me how to destroy a package I defined from repl?
21:32:09  clhs delete-package
21:32:13  thanks
21:32:16 -!- morphling [~stefan@gssn-5f7567e1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:32:26  ... right, no specbot.
21:32:30  One of these days...
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21:35:03  gmemusage tells me that both instances of sbcl I have running are taking a total of ~1.6GB
21:35:59  luis: could you be convinced to migrate cffi, etc., to git?
21:36:28  cffi is in git already
21:37:05  LiamH: RES?
21:37:10  http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/cffi/cffi.git
21:37:14  Fare: check the homepage. There's a git repository and a launchpad bug tracker. Progress! :)
21:37:21  luis: yay!
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21:37:34  LiamH: There's bound to be a certain amount of overcommit due to the way SBCL handles its heap reservation.
21:38:47  nyef: OK, but I'm pretty sure it's not paging even so.
21:39:05  Yeah, with a 4gig system it's fairly unlikely.
21:39:17  I kindof wish I still had a system with that much RAM.
21:39:25 -!- zomgbie [~jesus@h081217133138.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:39:34  (My main x86oid has 1gig, and my old windows box has 2gigs.)
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21:57:29  LiamH: I think I don't quite understand what grid:copy-to is supposed to do.
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22:08:56  LiamH: Could you do a pull and retry the tests?
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22:28:35  Later
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23:12:32  Ok, I've got vanilla apple snow leopard to run in virtualbox.  Let's see how the lisp game fares out there.
23:12:54  Ooh.
23:13:04  Oh. Virtualbox. Right. Nevermind.
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23:14:15  I wasn't easy, mostly because the information (mixed with confusion) is thinly spread all over the intertubes.
23:14:49  *It
23:15:59  The reason I perked up in the first place was that I have a mac, but no MacOS to go with it.
23:16:33  that doesn't sound especially bad
23:17:06  Not -now-, no.
23:17:51  The first few weeks were obnoxious, though, and hibernate is only now (as of 2.6.35.4 or so) appearing to be stable.
23:18:14  (And that's -with- a required local kernel hack.)
23:20:22  minion: memo for Sikander: 110 assertions passed, 180 failed, consistently.  grid:copy-to makes a new grid copying the old one; it's not a good name.
23:20:22  Remembered. I'll tell Sikander when he/she/it next speaks.
23:20:22  LiamH, memo from Sikander: I pushed a new change, so please do a pull of gsll and try it. Also, see the mailing list.
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